Speaker 1: Hi, I'm doctor Shiloh and I'm doctor Scott. And this
Speaker 1: is La Not So Confidential, the forensic psychology and true
Speaker 1: crime podcast.
Speaker 2: Each episode, we explore the intersection of psychology, the criminal
Speaker 2: justice system, and entertainment.
Speaker 1: Welcome behind the Couch. Today's livestream conversation features filmmaker Michael Bayer,
Speaker 1: the director and producer of the new docuseries Vanished The
Speaker 1: Heather Elvis Case. Hi everyone, Hey, everybody, Welcome Behind the Couch.
Speaker 1: You guys, Hi, Doctor Scott. How you doing. Seems like
Speaker 1: forever forever.
Speaker 2: It's like it's been just forever.
Speaker 1: I feel like we're doing these once a month and
Speaker 1: it's kind of like wonky in between. It feels like
Speaker 1: sometimes we just did one. But yeah, it seems like
Speaker 1: forever since I saw this one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for everybody for showing up. I know
Speaker 2: we have usually some late drop ends, but for those
Speaker 2: of you that are watching right now, just a reminder
Speaker 2: we have a live meetup this week in LA. This
Speaker 2: is coming Friday, April eleventh at Bike Shed in downtown
Speaker 2: last Ageelius, So we'll have all the details on social
Speaker 2: media and to those of you that were listening to
Speaker 2: this in May, We hope you enjoyed the meetup or
Speaker 2: sorry you didn't make it, because sometimes it tooks a
Speaker 2: little bit longer to get the use that posted.
Speaker 1: This will drop in our regular audio feed in May,
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, we've been planning that. We've also been
Speaker 1: doing some other guest spots lately, so please go watch
Speaker 1: us over on Defense Diaries YouTube channel. We talked about
Speaker 1: the Zizian's cult. I'm going to drop that link in
Speaker 1: the chat right now. That was super interesting. We do
Speaker 1: cover that in our in the News Behind the Couch,
Speaker 1: which is the last one we did, but that was
Speaker 1: just a quick little bite. This one, we really kind
Speaker 1: of get into it a little bit more with Bob
Speaker 1: and Allie. Also recently, so I was just a guest
Speaker 1: on Truth Injustice. Bob Ruff and I discussed the longer
Speaker 1: video segment that came out on Bridge Guy in the
Speaker 1: Delphi case so little behavioral analysis and talked about that
Speaker 1: kind of just our thoughts without getting too deep, without
Speaker 1: you know, kind of hypothesizing too much, just kind of
Speaker 1: looking at it for what it was right after it
Speaker 1: was released. And then next week I am going to
Speaker 1: be on the three hundredth episode of Tennis Podcast when
Speaker 1: it drops, so they have their big three hundredth episode
Speaker 1: like we just did our two hundredth. They can't even know,
Speaker 1: I can't. They got a little bit.
Speaker 2: Of a head start on us, though, so there's no
Speaker 2: they just.
Speaker 1: Published every single week, but I think we started around
Speaker 1: the same year or so. But man Nick is like
Speaker 1: a one man show over there.
Speaker 3: That's great.
Speaker 2: So I also completely forgot that our dear dear friend
Speaker 2: Josh Hallmark from True Crime, Bullshit and Unsafe Spaces is
Speaker 2: releasing the follow ups now to Unsafe Spaces and is
Speaker 2: utilizing a very extensive interview that we had together. Gosh
Speaker 2: going on about a year and a half, two years,
Speaker 2: it feels like maybe it's only a year. But that's
Speaker 2: a really, really fascinating and horrifying case of serial killers
Speaker 2: in Florida within the gay BDSM community, So please check
Speaker 2: that out. I think, as always, I'm just a huge
Speaker 2: fan of Josh's work, and he always always offers us
Speaker 2: such respect for our work that we do in our
Speaker 2: clinical work and our forensic work, so I really feel
Speaker 2: like I had a lot to offer there. And then
Speaker 2: also just out of the blue, about a month ago,
Speaker 2: I got a great opportunity to be interviewed for an
Speaker 2: article by Alexandra Paul, who is, as most people will know,
Speaker 2: or most people my age would know, was a star
Speaker 2: on the original Baywatch series. And Alexandra is first of all,
Speaker 2: just an absolutely stellar, wonderful human being who went through
Speaker 2: an absolutely horrific incidence of stalking from a completely delusional
Speaker 2: fan over a period of thirteen years. It severely impacted
Speaker 2: her life, her husband, her family, her elderly mother. It
Speaker 2: really is just one of the best worst examples of
Speaker 2: why we need stronger stalking laws here in the United States.
Speaker 2: Shilah is going to put up a link to that.
Speaker 2: It's an online zine called The Ankler, and please go
Speaker 2: read it. Please, not just for my own self edification,
Speaker 2: but please distribute this article. I think every woman needs
Speaker 2: to read this article about being stalked by somebody that's
Speaker 2: not a guy. It's really important that can happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a fantastic article. And good for her for
Speaker 1: writing that when she felt like she was ready. Yeah,
Speaker 1: really put her voice to it. And you know, Cites,
Speaker 1: you're in an article with read Maloy. Read Maloy. You
Speaker 1: know our saint read Maloy. Forensic psychologists also kids cited
Speaker 1: in it, so I mean it's kind of like you
Speaker 1: guys are bestie. Oh my goodness. Okay. So lastly here
Speaker 1: in our housekeeping before we bring on our guest, of
Speaker 1: course our new Patreons. So since we were on here last,
Speaker 1: we have at the associate level we have Sarah M.
Speaker 1: And we have Shay D. The last initial is D.
Speaker 1: I don't think that is meaning shady, but I wanted
Speaker 1: to die. It is very cool to have that name
Speaker 1: with that initial. And then at the intern level Cameron B.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so very much for being part of
Speaker 1: our Patroon family. Don't forget that if you join at
Speaker 1: the doctoral level, you are entered into a merch giveaway
Speaker 1: every single month. It restarts in January, so if you win,
Speaker 1: we pull your name off and then you know, spin
Speaker 1: the wheel each consecutive month, but January starts all over.
Speaker 1: Everybody gets put back in the pool. So for February
Speaker 1: we have Teresa R. She was our winner. She has
Speaker 1: actually received her goodies today. I sent her some stuff
Speaker 1: after going back and forth with her. And then for March,
Speaker 1: Jessica W which Jessica, if you're listening, check your Patreon
Speaker 1: messages because you actually won two years ago and you
Speaker 1: never got back to this, So you've won twice in
Speaker 1: two years. Those are pretty good odds. I think it
Speaker 1: goes to say, of you know folks who we are
Speaker 1: pulling from in the giveaway, but Jessica, w if that's
Speaker 1: you reach out to us, we emailed you. I want
Speaker 1: to make sure we get you something, whether it's a
Speaker 1: piece of merch or just something fun that you're okay
Speaker 1: with us sending you a little surprise that we do that,
Speaker 1: And I want to make sure your address is still correct.
Speaker 1: So little treats for our devoted Patreon members, which we
Speaker 1: are so thankful for always.
Speaker 2: And onto the main event. May Today, we are joined
Speaker 2: by Michael Bayer, founder of True Case Files and the
Speaker 2: director of the new three part true crime document Vanished,
Speaker 2: the Heather Elvis Case. Michael brings over twelve years of
Speaker 2: experience in video production, having worked on everything from commercials
Speaker 2: and explainer videos to emotionally powerful documentaries, and after stepping
Speaker 2: away from production to help grow his brother's criminal defense
Speaker 2: law firm, Michael gained first hand insight into the world
Speaker 2: of criminal investigations, legal strategy, and the psychological complexity of
Speaker 2: the justice system. So now he's combining his production expertise
Speaker 2: with his legal knowledge to tell real stories with depth
Speaker 2: and impact, and that certainly is the case and vanished
Speaker 2: how they're elvis case that not only explores the mystery
Speaker 2: around her disappearance, but also examines the powerful, sometimes dangerous,
Speaker 2: and overwhelmingly crazy trajectory that this case takes, mainly due
Speaker 2: to social media, and how that is starting to play
Speaker 2: a role in criminal cases. Very very valuable to see
Speaker 2: in this way in today's world. Through this project and
Speaker 2: his team really aim to raise awareness around online harassment
Speaker 2: and spotlight the ongoing pursuit of justice for Heather and
Speaker 2: her family. So welcome Michael, Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: joining us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 1: Great to see you again. Yeah, I am very brief
Speaker 1: at the screening, Hey for codam. Yeah, I'm glad we
Speaker 1: could make it happen. Thank you for the invite, And
Speaker 1: it's great to do a follow up like this. Hearing
Speaker 1: about your background is just so nice. Obviously, Scott and
Speaker 1: I appreciate it when professionals in criminal justice and adjacent
Speaker 1: fields then get into content creation, and that really is
Speaker 1: I think an evolution that we've seen in true crime,
Speaker 1: and the consumers seem to be pretty appreciative of that.
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you found that that background
Speaker 1: seems to have some bona fides with it and that
Speaker 1: people understand that, but it's just you know, from our
Speaker 1: point of view, it's been really valuable in this space.
Speaker 3: I mean, I agree, I think without the backgrounds, I
Speaker 3: probably am most impossible to tell that story. You really
Speaker 3: have to have a good understanding of how criminal psychology works,
Speaker 3: how trials work, the presentation of it, the motive behind
Speaker 3: the crime. So those are things that I really think
Speaker 3: we're key in being able to tell the story the
Speaker 3: way I was able to without that experience impossible.
Speaker 1: Well, many many have tried and done it, and it's
Speaker 1: you know, it'll get into more of our conversation of
Speaker 1: what kind of sets us apart. I do want to
Speaker 1: give a very brief overview of Heather's case to the
Speaker 1: audience in case they are not familiar with it, before
Speaker 1: we kind of jump into your journey about creating this
Speaker 1: docu series and just a taste, because of course we
Speaker 1: want people to go and watch this after hearing this.
Speaker 1: But Heather Elvis was a twenty year old cosmetology student
Speaker 1: and restaurant server who disappeared on December eighteenth, twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1: So this was following a first date, which feels sounds suspicious,
Speaker 1: but the AMA side portion of her case remains open now.
Speaker 1: The investigation led to the arrests of Sidney Moore, who
Speaker 1: Heather was in a relationship with, not that person she
Speaker 1: went on the first date with. He was arrested for obstruction, kidnapping,
Speaker 1: and his wife, Tammy Moore, was also arrested for conspiracy
Speaker 1: and kidnapping. And these two are something. I mean, Scott
Speaker 1: and I have talked about a lot of characters and
Speaker 1: true crime documentaries that we have reviewed over the years,
Speaker 1: but man, I mean, I think they might be up
Speaker 1: there and take the cake. As far as again, I'll
Speaker 1: just say characters. We don't psychoanalyze people we have not
Speaker 1: met in real life. But throughout the proceedings of this
Speaker 1: court case, again, social media played a significant role in
Speaker 1: really shaping public perception, which we're seeing more and more
Speaker 1: of all the time. The conflicting narratives, the online trolling component,
Speaker 1: which Scott and I have covered, the psychology of that
Speaker 1: for sure, and specifically these posts made by Tammy and
Speaker 1: her supporters and how that ended up kind of twisting things,
Speaker 1: portraying Heather as a stalker, kind of fueling the controversy
Speaker 1: that impacted, yes, the investigation, but also of course families
Speaker 1: that have to live with this forever. So with that,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the case a little bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you hit a lot of I mean,
Speaker 3: you hit it on the head exactly. The thing about
Speaker 3: the case that interesting characters involved in it, and I
Speaker 3: think that is something that drew me to it as well.
Speaker 3: I think in the Q and A, Allison asked what
Speaker 3: was one main thing that kind of got your attention
Speaker 3: with this case? And I think the handcuffing to the
Speaker 3: bed was this very abnormal behavior, something you don't see
Speaker 3: every day, and the tattoo on his lower stomach, it
Speaker 3: makes you want to dig in more and learn more
Speaker 3: about the relationship and what type of people they are,
Speaker 3: So I found that part interesting also, I think when
Speaker 3: you also dig deeper into the story, which we did
Speaker 3: more than we had more time. So we had it
Speaker 3: was a three part docu series, so Dayline did a
Speaker 3: Dayline did two segments on it. Investigation did one. They
Speaker 3: weren't able to dig deeper into the relationship between them,
Speaker 3: and even father and the sister and the sister's boyfriend
Speaker 3: and all these other people that along the way, you know,
Speaker 3: helping clean the truck, the videos and all this, so
Speaker 3: a lot more of the evidence were able to get
Speaker 3: into and it just shows that the dynamics of the
Speaker 3: personalities of these people involved in the crime. So I
Speaker 3: thought it was I thought it was very interesting from
Speaker 3: a psychological standpoint for sure.
Speaker 2: Well, definitely the development that you're able to create over
Speaker 2: your three episodes. Each one stands alone distinctly with its
Speaker 2: own particular focus, which is a really great concept. I
Speaker 2: don't know if that was intended, I mean, but it
Speaker 2: really worked to work for me, as you know, for
Speaker 2: someone who works in this area, and also as a
Speaker 2: viewer just a participant, you know, with a bag of popcorn,
Speaker 2: like it was that engaging, and you know, for those
Speaker 2: of who have not had the opportunity to see it yet,
Speaker 2: Episode one really focuses on Heather herself, her background, her personality,
Speaker 2: her you know, coming of age challenges as the teenager
Speaker 2: right into this event, sledding into her disappearance. So that
Speaker 2: made me wonder as we were sitting watching and thank
Speaker 2: you very much for inviting us to the event and
Speaker 2: to the premiere, But that helps me generate this first question,
Speaker 2: what initially drew you to Heather's case and what about
Speaker 2: this particular case made it feel important to you to
Speaker 2: revisit now over a decade later.
Speaker 3: The online harassment aspect of it was what originally drew
Speaker 3: me through. I personally went through kind of a very
Speaker 3: very minor situation around twenty sixteen as a family member
Speaker 3: kind of had one of these character type people who
Speaker 3: used social media in a negative way. It was the
Speaker 3: first time I've ever seen social media or Facebook being
Speaker 3: used this way, just being able to start rumors and
Speaker 3: weren't true and help. People were contacting me, Hey did
Speaker 3: you say this about me? Say that about I was
Speaker 3: just like like what, I used to have no privacy
Speaker 3: settings on my Facebook account. Didn't think anything of it.
Speaker 3: Didn't think anything of it. Maybe you want to be
Speaker 3: my friend who cares? I didn't didn't see any danger
Speaker 3: of it. I think when social media first started, a
Speaker 3: lot of people were like, this is something that just
Speaker 3: throw your stuff out there, put all your information out
Speaker 3: there and whatever. I mean, there's no harm behind it.
Speaker 3: That was the first time I was like, wow, like
Speaker 3: this can really be used as a dangerous weapon. And
Speaker 3: at the time I was working with my brother and
Speaker 3: I had an experience in production. I said, I wouldn't
Speaker 3: mind making a documentary about this topic cyber stocking. So
Speaker 3: I was going to make Originally I was going to
Speaker 3: make a documentary just about online harassment, cyber stocking, people
Speaker 3: who use the Internet and social media in negative ways.
Speaker 3: Then I was looking for different examples of it, and
Speaker 3: I came across the story. When I came across the story,
Speaker 3: I looked and watched into it and I was like wow.
Speaker 3: And then I saw the whole thing about Tammy and
Speaker 3: the handcuffing, and then you just draw in and then
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, go all the way back. This
Speaker 3: crime isn't solved yet, she's still missing, so really grab
Speaker 3: my attention. Maybe we can bring awareness to it. There's
Speaker 3: the whole online harassment part. I can maybe mess these
Speaker 3: two things together. I'm sure, I thought to myself, I'm
Speaker 3: sure the family would want to shine light on this story.
Speaker 3: And that online harassment part wasn't told. I just found
Speaker 3: it all online, but I watched it. Then I did
Speaker 3: a little further investigation. I watched the Dayline episodes, watched
Speaker 3: the Investigation Discovery episode No One talks about this, and
Speaker 3: I was like, this is probably one of the main
Speaker 3: parts of this story. I want to do this, and
Speaker 3: I think it's also going to help the case. It's
Speaker 3: a topic you can tell a story through a story
Speaker 3: type deal.
Speaker 2: So you actually even covered question one in question two.
Speaker 2: Thank you for I don't know if.
Speaker 1: You you didn't intend to do it.
Speaker 2: That's great. I really am so glad that you focused
Speaker 2: on the phenomenon of trolling. And Shiloh and I did
Speaker 2: a deep dive in one of our episodes into this
Speaker 2: phenomenon and why it's continuing to explode, and one of
Speaker 2: the things that we both you know, we didn't get
Speaker 2: a chance to talk about it as much as the
Speaker 2: actions itself by people who perpetrate it, but the frustration
Speaker 2: on our part. And this is not victim shaming at all,
Speaker 2: but it's the idea that we would hope in today's
Speaker 2: world that most people would know to turn on their
Speaker 2: privacy settings, and yet people still don't. You know, it's
Speaker 2: been fifteen years since this all exploded and people still don't.
Speaker 2: And it's also sort of sobering to see that not
Speaker 2: only are there some really bad actors out there, there
Speaker 2: are some people out there that are expressing their inner rage,
Speaker 2: their inner frustration and taking it out, you know, behind
Speaker 2: this safety of the keyboard. But we also have people
Speaker 2: that are not critically thinking about it, right, Like they're
Speaker 2: not thinking about is this true or not. So in
Speaker 2: the case that you're presenting, people can hop on Tammy's
Speaker 2: bandwagon and just absolutely, you know, help her become this
Speaker 2: avalanche of trolling that occurred. So I'm really really glad
Speaker 2: that you focused on that. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Scott and I have seen you know, I
Speaker 1: think what you highlighted not just the trolling and how
Speaker 1: you know they kind of weaponized it. The suspects essentially
Speaker 1: kind of weaponize that to try and create their own narrative.
Speaker 1: But I mean, really we're talking about like this leading
Speaker 1: to some real life horrific events for the family, which
Speaker 1: we have seen with other survivors and family members of victims,
Speaker 1: where we're talking probably they were shot at, that they're
Speaker 1: being chased and stocked themselves, you know, really moments where
Speaker 1: just unbelievable things unfold, especially like in episode two where
Speaker 1: you're really covering what that led to that is completely
Speaker 1: distracting them from the fact that they're still looking for
Speaker 1: their daughter.
Speaker 3: Right. And the stalking started online, but it also then
Speaker 3: it came offline as well, and we covered I didn't
Speaker 3: really know much into these stories until I started talking
Speaker 3: to Debbie Elvis, the family members, Morgan and Terry, and
Speaker 3: they were they were like, no, just it just it
Speaker 3: wasn't just online harassment. This turned into in person stalking,
Speaker 3: and it was just in talking to them. How can
Speaker 3: you imagine going through a situation where you think everybody's
Speaker 3: going to want to help you to find your daughter,
Speaker 3: and now you have these random people who think you
Speaker 3: did it and are going out of their way to
Speaker 3: harass you in person. Yeah, you know, it's just it's
Speaker 3: eye openly shocking. And people are starting to really realize
Speaker 3: the internet. When you start getting it's like bullying almost
Speaker 3: or I don't know what we're to say, but people
Speaker 3: get on these the idea, then the group gets, the
Speaker 3: whole group piles and then they become they get their
Speaker 3: own status in the group and so and this can
Speaker 3: snowball up to the point where people are shooting at
Speaker 3: you or harassing you in person just to get just
Speaker 3: to get a little higher up in that little group
Speaker 3: that's online, and these people find themselves, they find their
Speaker 3: little group this way, I'm guessing. And when I heard
Speaker 3: the story deeper and deeper there's I mean, a lot
Speaker 3: of these people are just random people. You know. Yes,
Speaker 3: Tammy Moore was a person that was spearheading this, there
Speaker 3: were other people that were leaders of the group, but
Speaker 3: these other followers just jump on and it's like a
Speaker 3: cult almost.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm really glad you said that. I think you
Speaker 2: actually are making a really good point because one of
Speaker 2: the things for people that are on the outside of
Speaker 2: cults can look in on maybe a cult or you know,
Speaker 2: a cult ish type behavior or organization that a family
Speaker 2: member or a friend has fallen into, and when you
Speaker 2: have that distance, you can look at the leaders of
Speaker 2: it and you can go, what the hell, Like, this
Speaker 2: person's crazy, why are you listening to them? And you know,
Speaker 2: all without going into diagnostic criteria, Tammy and her husband
Speaker 2: are odd characters, and that's being kind to put it.
Speaker 2: They're both clearly like every basic sort of boundary of
Speaker 2: lying is totally transgressed every time they open their mouths.
Speaker 2: They're strange in the way they interact, they're defensive in
Speaker 2: the way they answer questions, and so the idea that
Speaker 2: they would have such a following and such a defensive
Speaker 2: following in their online supporters is really a big part
Speaker 2: of this story. So yeah, I like how you dipped
Speaker 2: into that in the second episode. I think it was
Speaker 2: a really important part of this narrative.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and another thing is when I was talking to Debbie,
Speaker 3: it was difficult where we're interviewing her to really grasp
Speaker 3: the whole picture, because, Okay, you have Tammy, you have Sydney,
Speaker 3: and then you have all these trolls. What's the motivation
Speaker 3: behind the trolls? I kept thinking to myself, where's the
Speaker 3: connection here? Why are these people wanting to help out
Speaker 3: these other people? And then I really I looked more
Speaker 3: into it. There are people out there who just this
Speaker 3: is their group and they think some of them think
Speaker 3: they're doing good, they're cracking the case. They they think
Speaker 3: Terry's doing power from that right that they're the ones
Speaker 3: who are figuring out a conspiracy that no one else knows.
Speaker 3: And it's wild how this whole and Tammy does have
Speaker 3: that personality of being a leader, and she's a strong
Speaker 3: personality and she was very manipulative, you could say, and
Speaker 3: you could see how she was using soft puppet accounts
Speaker 3: and other things to be able to draw people in
Speaker 3: a very intelligent person or not dumb at all.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, not at all, very very intelligent, right,
Speaker 2: and very very much all these elements of coercive control
Speaker 2: and her relationship with you know, the manipulation, the tattooing
Speaker 2: is I mean, I remember Shiloh, and I like other
Speaker 2: members of the audience, explain it.
Speaker 1: Scott for the audience does oh, oh my gosh, sorry,
Speaker 1: I got like this is why, like I forget and
Speaker 1: I think I'm sitting across the table from Michael.
Speaker 2: So in the first episode of this series, what you
Speaker 2: find out, amongst all the other oddities and strange dynamics
Speaker 2: within the relationship between Tammy and Sydney is that she
Speaker 2: believes that he's having an affair, and so she really
Speaker 2: ramps up some behaviors that are very much within the
Speaker 2: realm of coercive control, dominating behaviors, really emotional abuse, and Sydney,
Speaker 2: for whatever is going on in his personality, goes along
Speaker 2: with it. And one of one of the things you
Speaker 2: find out as a member of the audience is that
Speaker 2: at one point she sleeps with him handcuffed to the
Speaker 2: bed and he admits to it, and later in the
Speaker 2: trial she denies it. But then it moves on from
Speaker 2: that to she demands, in retribution for him having the
Speaker 2: alleged affair, that he get a tattoo in big, you know,
Speaker 2: sort of English Gothic letters across his lower abdomen, almost
Speaker 2: like a gang sign, but it's her name across his
Speaker 2: lower abdomen. It's also an awful tattoo, and so it's
Speaker 2: and I don't say that for for humor's sake, although
Speaker 2: it is kind of funny, but there was a really
Speaker 2: uncomfortable reaction in the audience when that flashes up on
Speaker 2: the screen and there's a excuse my language, there's a
Speaker 2: what the fuck moment and a real funeral giggle that
Speaker 2: went through the audience because it's so crazy that someone
Speaker 2: would demand this of their partner, and then that the
Speaker 2: partner would agree with it, which I think speaks to
Speaker 2: just how intelligently manipulative she was in that relationship, how.
Speaker 3: Much controls you had, absolutely and.
Speaker 1: That surprised you. There was a laughter when that image
Speaker 1: came up on the screen, you know, and what did
Speaker 1: you I'm just curious, like, were you in afecting.
Speaker 2: That at all?
Speaker 3: Right? I don't think people were laughing, and like I
Speaker 3: think Scott said at Bessie, it was humor comfortable laugh
Speaker 3: type yeah, right, like it's like wow, you know, it's
Speaker 3: same with the handcuffing. It's it's funny, but it's funny
Speaker 3: in a really weird, strange way. It's it's almost like
Speaker 3: you it's bizarre. I think bizarre is a word to use. Bizarre. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you don't see that all the time.
Speaker 1: You do not see you? No, no, no, And I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking, you know, Scott and I for a couple
Speaker 1: of years, once a month we would review a true
Speaker 1: crime documentary into an episode on it. And this couple
Speaker 1: does give me vibes of the Natalia Grace parents, right,
Speaker 1: like the very domineering, manipulative woman, the mom and then
Speaker 1: the just very bizarre presenting Dad. I don't know you
Speaker 1: you really get that from what we are able to
Speaker 1: see and then what you were able to pull into
Speaker 1: the documentary through footage, TV interviews, news interviews of course,
Speaker 1: the trials, and then through the re enactments as well.
Speaker 1: Just how there probably is a lot of fear built
Speaker 1: into Sydney, like saying, you know, why would he go
Speaker 1: through with getting this tattoo? Well, maybe she made it
Speaker 1: so he didn't have a whole lot of a choice there, right,
Speaker 1: You mentioned you know obviously sitting down and talking with
Speaker 1: Heather's parents and sister and friends. Tell us what that
Speaker 1: was like to come in as a filmmaker and start
Speaker 1: building a rapport with them. I mean you can tell
Speaker 1: especially I don't know. I mean there's a real hesitance
Speaker 1: to them obviously through everything they've been through, and the
Speaker 1: dad just seems like he would be a tough nut
Speaker 1: to crack. I mean, he wears his heart on his sleeve,
Speaker 1: and you know, God bless both of them. But what
Speaker 1: was that like to come in and say, here's my idea,
Speaker 1: trust me to tell your daughter's story.
Speaker 3: It was difficult. I think anytime anybody goes through a
Speaker 3: situation like they did, they're going to be guarded. It
Speaker 3: takes time, takes trust. Summer Dash was another producer on this,
Speaker 3: and she had a prior relationship with them because she
Speaker 3: was a local reporter. So she's the one who approached them.
Speaker 3: As for being comfortable with me, it took them time.
Speaker 3: Now we're like friends, so you know, really and any
Speaker 3: follow up interviews, I told Debbie anything you need, I
Speaker 3: just want to help, you know. They but it takes
Speaker 3: time because they don't know who I am. This is
Speaker 3: this was my first true crime documentary, and they didn't
Speaker 3: know what story I wanted to tell. They were. They
Speaker 3: were always guarded a lot because of the situation they
Speaker 3: had with all the conspiracy theories and everyone in the
Speaker 3: everyone that everything that happened on social media. They didn't
Speaker 3: they didn't know what angle I came from. I think
Speaker 3: having Summer and jim in Summer and Jimmy Richardson the solicitor,
Speaker 3: he was the first one to kind of get on
Speaker 3: board and say, hey, look this, Mike's going to do
Speaker 3: a good job. And I think after I had that,
Speaker 3: it slowly they started to feel more comfortable. But another
Speaker 3: thing about making a good documentary and interviewing someone, as
Speaker 3: you guys know, it takes a while to build trust
Speaker 3: and to get them to open up about their story.
Speaker 3: It's not something where you just throw a camera on
Speaker 3: someone's face and say, okay, what happened here? Here? Here?
Speaker 3: They have to really, they have to get to trust
Speaker 3: you and be open. And that's a very important part
Speaker 3: of making these type of documentaries and these stories are
Speaker 3: This isn't about opening up about hey, what do you
Speaker 3: think about the economy or tell me about your job
Speaker 3: history that I mean, this is something that they lost
Speaker 3: their daughter. She's still missing, so it was something they
Speaker 3: had to feel comfortable with it, but took it took while,
Speaker 3: it took time.
Speaker 2: So can you kind of lead us through your process on,
Speaker 2: like in a practical way, about how you navigated this.
Speaker 2: The narrative style dives into both the emotional impact and
Speaker 2: the legal details. How do you, as a producer work
Speaker 2: with your colleagues and you know, your creative team to
Speaker 2: balance these two storytelling elements.
Speaker 3: That's a good question and a lot of times every
Speaker 3: filmmaker is going to have a different style. So some
Speaker 3: filmmakers concentrate more on facts and timeline and you know,
Speaker 3: they or whatever part maybe evidence they like, or they
Speaker 3: want mystery or who did it? That's a huge storyline
Speaker 3: that's very very popular. My style is more I like
Speaker 3: to mix. I like to mix the facts part, but
Speaker 3: I do like to concentrate a lot on the emotional part,
Speaker 3: the relationships between people part. The psychology part, I think
Speaker 3: is very very interesting showing the character. You do need
Speaker 3: the facts, always need the facts. I mean, people want
Speaker 3: to know what happened. Also, I like to skip around
Speaker 3: in the timeline in order to keep people's attention. Show
Speaker 3: them something, move them back, move them forward. I'm not
Speaker 3: saying all documentaries are going to be made like that,
Speaker 3: but I like that style. But as for setting it up,
Speaker 3: because I've seen where you have footage or you have
Speaker 3: everything together and in someone could cut that up and
Speaker 3: it's a completely different movie than if an other person did.
Speaker 3: I think one thing that's very important when making the
Speaker 3: documentary or a movie in general is don't put too
Speaker 3: much information in there and make people feel something. I
Speaker 3: think you have to people feel something, and that's something
Speaker 3: that people always want to tell information. Well, they have
Speaker 3: to know everything. If they don't know this part, they
Speaker 3: don't know this part, they're not going to understand the story.
Speaker 3: Because if you noticed one thing that I skipped over,
Speaker 3: and I spoke to Debbie Elvis about this, she goes, Wow,
Speaker 3: she goes, you did a really good job of telling
Speaker 3: the story in regards to what you put in and
Speaker 3: what you kept out. Because even at the trial. There
Speaker 3: was so much stuff the prosecutors had a hard time
Speaker 3: with that. She's like, I'm gonna show Nancy Live saying,
Speaker 3: these people, you know, you did a really good job.
Speaker 3: They're going to be shocked to see how what you
Speaker 3: kept in what you kept out. For example, the first
Speaker 3: trial for Sidney Moore was a mistrial. I could have
Speaker 3: spent ten minutes on that. I had it just as
Speaker 3: one line. And when I was first editing the movie,
Speaker 3: I did have all that stuff in there, and I
Speaker 3: was scratching my head. I'm like, God, this really slows
Speaker 3: it down, confuses people. Well, there's one trial, there's two trials.
Speaker 3: People don't understand a mistrial. They really don't get it's
Speaker 3: just gonna it could really just stop the movie right there,
Speaker 3: slow everything down. So I'm just going to put one
Speaker 3: sentence as a mistrial. And then now we have two trials,
Speaker 3: so Tammy and Sydney, but they use the same evidence.
Speaker 3: How do you do that? If I was to do
Speaker 3: one trial and then another trial until the same that
Speaker 3: was very difficult to navigate. So I said, let's just
Speaker 3: combine them together, take the key moments from both of them,
Speaker 3: because it's the same evidence and just move them across
Speaker 3: the timeline. I think it worked, but other people could
Speaker 3: cut that apart, and they could do they could have
Speaker 3: spent ten minutes on that first trial and then in
Speaker 3: a mistrial then, but I think you to confuse people,
Speaker 3: so you have to keep people's interest and not give
Speaker 3: them too much information.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for that creative choice, because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times when Scott and I have covered
Speaker 1: documentaries were like, there is too much trial stuff in here. Yes,
Speaker 1: is how important is it? Of course? And then you
Speaker 1: know you have Tammy getting on the stand and you
Speaker 1: know that is such a shit show that you have
Speaker 1: to put her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting and important too, because it's really in
Speaker 2: the way she she shows the audience who she is
Speaker 2: as well as the jury. I mean, it is just
Speaker 2: it's it was some really good filmmaking with her.
Speaker 3: Did a great job. Yeah, I mean, she really showed
Speaker 3: her It's hard to hide if you ever sit down
Speaker 3: in a court. When I went to Oriy County Courthouse,
Speaker 3: I sat down in the same chair that because Jimmy
Speaker 3: Richardson let us shoot in there. So I sat down
Speaker 3: that same chair and I looked at the jury and
Speaker 3: I go God, it would be very, very difficult to
Speaker 3: sit here and look at these twelve people all in
Speaker 3: the face and try to lie to them and gaslight them.
Speaker 3: It's an amazing justice system that we have where they
Speaker 3: can just you're you're on trial, You're sitting in front
Speaker 3: of these people, and you have to explain yourself.
Speaker 1: So yeah, interesting choice for them to put her on
Speaker 1: the stand, and certainly she you know, sink her own ship,
Speaker 1: but I applaud that choice definitely. I want to ask
Speaker 1: you just in that vein. You know another thing Scott
Speaker 1: and I kind of look at is the ethics behind
Speaker 1: you know, the considerations given when making a documentary. And
Speaker 1: of course you know we're talking to you, so we
Speaker 1: get to ask you that question. We don't always know absolutely,
Speaker 1: but you know a lot. You said you want the
Speaker 1: audience to feel something, and so often I think we
Speaker 1: have talked about watching a documentary and feeling gross afterwards,
Speaker 1: feeling like it was more exploitative, like the cameras were
Speaker 1: kept on a little too long when people started to
Speaker 1: get uncomfortable. And you know, another friend of ours, Leonora Claire,
Speaker 1: who does some consulting in the victim advocacy space, is
Speaker 1: really advocated like having people on set to be a
Speaker 1: go between to say, like so and so needs a
Speaker 1: break or what have you. How did you kind of
Speaker 1: think about going into that in terms of working with
Speaker 1: people that were in such a vulnerable state, yet of
Speaker 1: course wanting to hear from them, because that's a hard
Speaker 1: thing to balance, But just curious of your comment her
Speaker 1: thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: As a filmmaker, I think it's very important to look
Speaker 3: at the point of view coming from the victim in
Speaker 3: regards to how you tell the story. A lot of people, again,
Speaker 3: they're trying to make entertainment out of something and you,
Speaker 3: for example, we could have started the movie out making
Speaker 3: it look like Terry was involved or something, or you know,
Speaker 3: just to keep people's attention and have a huge twisting
Speaker 3: turn and then he's not. But yet you could do
Speaker 3: things that make it a little more entertaining. But now
Speaker 3: you're twisting things up, you're omitting information. There's things in
Speaker 3: there where you could put in the movie to make
Speaker 3: it the part where they're describing Heather or anything like that,
Speaker 3: making more gruesome, more stuff like that. So for example,
Speaker 3: in our reenactments, we didn't have anything showing Heather being
Speaker 3: killed or murdered or anything. And that's something that I
Speaker 3: would not want to put in there because I wouldn't
Speaker 3: want the victims to have to watch that. So I
Speaker 3: do think about the victims and recall cards to their
Speaker 3: feelings about the whole thing too. You want people to feel,
Speaker 3: but you also have to look at them and say, hey, look,
Speaker 3: did they want this out there and everyone to see
Speaker 3: their family member in that way?
Speaker 1: So well, and look, I mean, I think it's a
Speaker 1: testament too. It doesn't need that stuff, right, It doesn't
Speaker 1: need the gruesome crime scene photos, even the descriptions, or
Speaker 1: even the reenactments as well. So what a testament to
Speaker 1: be able to get the story out there making people
Speaker 1: feel something without also having to like throw the red
Speaker 1: herrings in there. Right, So you're like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: and with a three parter, I mean, that's easily digestible too.
Speaker 3: I wanted.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you shared that about the sort
Speaker 2: of the your choice not to engage in a bait
Speaker 2: and switch, because that really is a technique that seems
Speaker 2: to be used a lot, because this is just such
Speaker 2: a prolific genre at the moment. You know, all of
Speaker 2: the big names are recycling shows from twenty years ago
Speaker 2: when this started, you know, dateline all of those they're
Speaker 2: bringing maybe some new information in. But in today's world,
Speaker 2: with the challenges that you're talking about with social media,
Speaker 2: that's kind of the problem when you do a bait
Speaker 2: and switch. If you're going to build something up as
Speaker 2: a possibility, that creator, whether they mean to or not,
Speaker 2: is feeding the flame of what ifs and conspiracy theories.
Speaker 2: And you've now just built up a case and one
Speaker 2: line of saying, but he was proved innocent by a
Speaker 2: blood test, and now we're on It's like, well, wait,
Speaker 2: you just built this up for ten minutes, and now
Speaker 2: you're going to dismiss it with literally three words the audience.
Speaker 2: You've already planted the seed. You can't unplant that seed
Speaker 2: in a listener's mind. I love that you have this approach.
Speaker 2: I think that is just a lot more ethical in
Speaker 2: an approach.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and not every crime documentary has to be who
Speaker 3: did It? I think they got popular in the Netflix,
Speaker 3: I mean especially now Netflix. I mean it seems to
Speaker 3: be a lot of their true crime documentaries follow that storyline.
Speaker 3: It's popular. I mean I like them too, I mean
Speaker 3: they're interesting, but I remember watching one. I think it
Speaker 3: was what about Jennifer or something, and they had you
Speaker 3: wondering who it was, who it was, who was and
Speaker 3: it got to the end, but all they did was
Speaker 3: check her phone. I mean, it wasn't like a huge mystery.
Speaker 3: I mean, there are a few of them that were
Speaker 3: really really good. I will say where there's like huge
Speaker 3: twist and turns and where they falsely accused someone and
Speaker 3: they found out that person didn't do it. So I
Speaker 3: mean that storyline works, but to try to make that
Speaker 3: storyline out of where it doesn't belong, I mean, there's
Speaker 3: other storylines in this documentary. I think the storyline was
Speaker 3: good versus evil, and I saw a huge conflict between
Speaker 3: the victims and the perpetrators. In the conflict didn't just
Speaker 3: go between Tammy and Heather. It went between Tammy the
Speaker 3: whole moors, and then the cases too and the Elvis family.
Speaker 3: So there was a huge conflict that naturally keeps your
Speaker 3: attention because it's just going back and forth. I don't
Speaker 3: want to everything. Well, then you have the ending, you know,
Speaker 3: so you had the resolution. It had a natural story
Speaker 3: of good and evil too, is what I saw after
Speaker 3: I got watched all the trial, listened to all the interviews.
Speaker 3: That's the storyline that I saw stuck out the most
Speaker 3: to me, So that's what I went with.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: I found something. I remember watching the third episode and
Speaker 2: thinking there was something that was happening. I don't want
Speaker 2: to give again, like you, I don't want to give
Speaker 2: away too much of this, but I just want to
Speaker 2: encourage everyone to please go watch this as soon as
Speaker 2: you can, because as you're listening to Tammy b deposed,
Speaker 2: I got really surprised that she was allowed to talk
Speaker 2: the way that she was. She was constantly interrupting. I mean,
Speaker 2: the defensiveness. I get that's going to happen in a trial,
Speaker 2: but there was one physical thing that just punched me
Speaker 2: in the gut. And what to me was so telling
Speaker 2: is the way she kept turning to the jury to explain.
Speaker 2: And it was so reminiscent of Amber heard during Amberhard's trial,
Speaker 2: where it's like I've got an audience, so I'm going
Speaker 2: to change my focus and I'm going to explain to you.
Speaker 2: This attorney is not giving me any respect, but I'm
Speaker 2: going to play to you.
Speaker 3: I'm going over there, I'm going over your head exactly.
Speaker 2: And most defense attorneys that I've worked with will always
Speaker 2: tell their clients do not address the jury that way.
Speaker 2: It will work against you, it will turn them against you.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, that's always a narcissist fall right. The narcissist
Speaker 2: always thinks that they know better than everybody else and
Speaker 2: that they're going to be able to run the show
Speaker 2: in a successful way.
Speaker 3: I agree. I agree. It shows the character and the
Speaker 3: way she was talking to the prosecutor, Nancy, calling her Nancy.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I mean, what a great comeback by Nancy.
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm sorry, have we met.
Speaker 3: Nancy? And that's one thing I really liked about the
Speaker 3: trial because I watched it three times. She is an
Speaker 3: amazing prosecutor, unflappable, amazing and a very very nice person.
Speaker 3: When I saw her met her in person, I said, ky,
Speaker 3: you the sweetest, nicest. I can't when you see her
Speaker 3: board though, you don't want to be on the other side,
Speaker 3: you want her prosecuting you. But she's just a very
Speaker 3: very nice person, very sweet. We did the interview and
Speaker 3: I think just an excellent, excellent prosecutor, and I'm happy
Speaker 3: to be able to show her story in this and
Speaker 3: her work in this as well, and I hope people
Speaker 3: see that and give her the recognition that she deserves
Speaker 3: for that trial. She did an excellent job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm no attorney, but I bet it was
Speaker 1: a very deliberate choice to have her cross examine Tammy,
Speaker 1: because having a woman asking you those questions is gonna
Speaker 1: set Tammy on that defensive and she she wasn't able
Speaker 1: to hold it together, kind of postured and addressing the
Speaker 1: jury like she started off with for very long. Just
Speaker 1: having kind of another woman challenge her.
Speaker 3: Excellent choice, I agreed, And I bet she was nervous
Speaker 3: as hell the night before, I mean, oh yeah. And
Speaker 3: Tammy was also harassing her, saying things about her online,
Speaker 3: saying that there was all these things happening in the
Speaker 3: office and making her life hell for prosecuting her. I mean,
Speaker 3: am I on some list? The first thing she says,
Speaker 3: I'm I on some list? It's people coming after me.
Speaker 3: I magine being a prosecutor and you're feeling threatened all
Speaker 3: the time, and here's your shot to do the cross examination,
Speaker 3: which was a huge part of that trial, and she
Speaker 3: nailed it. I think it was just amazing how and
Speaker 3: in the way that she combated the alibi. I thought
Speaker 3: it was just genius and Tammy Moore going on twenty
Speaker 3: twenty the night before about her, I mean, who does that?
Speaker 3: Who goes on twenty twenty the night before explaining your alibi?
Speaker 3: Like you said, doctor Scott, I mean, it's narcissism on
Speaker 3: another level.
Speaker 2: It really is.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: It's narcissism to the extent that as is, like you
Speaker 2: pointed out so aptly, how intelligent she is.
Speaker 3: She's not dumb, though I will yeah.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no not She's not stupid at all. I
Speaker 2: think she's very intelligent and what she has been doing
Speaker 2: has been working for her for a long time, clearly.
Speaker 2: But that's one of the problems when you're working with
Speaker 2: a malignant narcissist is that they believe their own bullshit
Speaker 2: so much that that projects out to everybody around them.
Speaker 2: Like they can fool most of the people most of
Speaker 2: the time, but when you start believing your own bs,
Speaker 2: that's the problem. In those scenes where she's the night
Speaker 2: before and she's got the poster board in her kitchen
Speaker 2: and she's showing the timeline that she's made up, like
Speaker 2: it's she's made up. It is complete.
Speaker 1: You got to write it down when you made it.
Speaker 3: Up, right, five, I did this? I mean, who remembers
Speaker 3: what they did? I mean, if I try to tell
Speaker 3: you yesterday, exactly this minute I did this, I couldn't
Speaker 3: remember that.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, gosh, I'm curious just about your history, your
Speaker 1: own personal history true crime. What was the thing that, like,
Speaker 1: did you have a TV show when you were a
Speaker 1: kid that was kind of your gateway drug or something
Speaker 1: that you really enjoyed that got you interested into the
Speaker 1: genre in the first place. And then just as a
Speaker 1: filmmaker or a director, like anyone that influenced to you
Speaker 1: in terms of documentary filmmakers or true crime content creators.
Speaker 1: Kind of a catch all.
Speaker 3: Question, but I always know direct the jinx, I thought
Speaker 3: was the fact that he was able to solve the crime,
Speaker 3: and that was another person. He went to. This individual
Speaker 3: he had a feeling or it probably knew that he
Speaker 3: did it and he was able to I just love
Speaker 3: how he presented it. Genius. That was just the JINX
Speaker 3: was probably I would suggest anybody to watch that. That
Speaker 3: was just a genius documentary. It deserved every award that
Speaker 3: it won. It was excellent journalism, was excellent use of
Speaker 3: true crime being able to finally put someone behind bars.
Speaker 3: I don't know if he died before he went to
Speaker 3: jail or not, but he had to pay for his
Speaker 3: crimes and it was yeah, see, it was good to see.
Speaker 3: So I think directly for true crime, and he can't
Speaker 3: beat him. I mean, he's just a great journalist. I
Speaker 3: mean we all like Dateline and I really one show
Speaker 3: that really I think influenced me the most, and I
Speaker 3: like the style was Locked Up Abroad. I don't know
Speaker 3: if you yeah, yeah, I love that style of storytelling.
Speaker 3: I think it's amazing. I like how to do the reenactments.
Speaker 3: I kind of modeled my reenactments after that. I don't
Speaker 3: know if you notice that, but I like showing the actors.
Speaker 3: I think the actors can bring more emotion to the
Speaker 3: story versus this new style everyone shows atmospheric or on
Speaker 3: the side they're afraid to show. Now, I get it,
Speaker 3: though there's arguments for both sides. Some people say, look,
Speaker 3: the victim, doesn't you know it's hard on the victims
Speaker 3: to show the full actor and it's them, And is
Speaker 3: it better if they look like the actors or don't
Speaker 3: or the actors look like the real people? We don't know.
Speaker 3: But then I've heard it the other way, where when
Speaker 3: you use a lot of archival footage. Because I spoke
Speaker 3: to I'm actually Morgan Elvis told me this. She said,
Speaker 3: there's certain pictures we don't want to show. We want
Speaker 3: to keep in whatever it's out there. She goes, you
Speaker 3: can use cause I had to asked what pictures can
Speaker 3: we use of Heather? What pictures can use of you guys?
Speaker 3: We don't want to share a lot, And I asked
Speaker 3: for some more pictures and said, we don't want to
Speaker 3: use these. We want to keep these for us, these
Speaker 3: pictures that we have of us and Heather. We want
Speaker 3: it to be for us. Go use actors, Go do
Speaker 3: what you want to do. Yeah, so it's interesting. So
Speaker 3: some victims were going to say that I understood her
Speaker 3: point after she said that, Yeah, it makes sense. So
Speaker 3: I think the movie, because there's some movies just have
Speaker 3: you can use all archival footage. There's so much let's say,
Speaker 3: social media stuff they have out there, or they have
Speaker 3: a lot of just a lot of home videos. I mean,
Speaker 3: everyone is a camera with their phone now, so there's
Speaker 3: just tons of footage you can get. So it depends.
Speaker 3: But I like that locked up a broad style.
Speaker 1: I really yeah, we love those older ones. I mean
Speaker 1: even someone in the chat was talking about unsolved mysteries
Speaker 1: or so.
Speaker 3: Back in the day, and.
Speaker 1: I'll always talk about City Confidential like you know, those
Speaker 1: are just like timeless.
Speaker 3: I think unsolved mysteries are coming back and they are yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really well done, very well done.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah true, and they solve tons of crimes.
Speaker 3: So you can use these a help find missing people.
Speaker 3: It's not just entertainment, you can it's entertainment raising awareness
Speaker 3: for a topic and potentially helping solve the crime. So
Speaker 3: I mean, and now with you can combine filmmaking with
Speaker 3: social media because you can keep the story going. After
Speaker 3: someone watches the movie, they can then go online and say, hey,
Speaker 3: look I have some information or this or that or
Speaker 3: I heard this person say that. It can really do
Speaker 3: a lot from any of these cases.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. We can't not mention hard dear friend John Lorden,
Speaker 1: who you used in this series. How did you get
Speaker 1: connected with him? And or you know what kind of
Speaker 1: drew you to having his voice fill some of the narrative.
Speaker 1: Because there's so many creators out there to pull from.
Speaker 1: Why John.
Speaker 3: He is an IT background and I watch his content online.
Speaker 3: I wanted someone who is an expert in social media
Speaker 3: and things with computers online stuff, and John's an expert
Speaker 3: in that. So and he's an expert in true crime,
Speaker 3: so he'd be perfect. Emailed him and he emailed me
Speaker 3: right back. He goes, you know, there's the family involved
Speaker 3: in this. I go yeah, and he goes, okay, cool,
Speaker 3: where do you live? He lives in Minnesota. He's from
Speaker 3: Los Angeles originally. He lives in Minnesota, and I'm actually
Speaker 3: from Wisconsin originally, so I was like, oh, I used
Speaker 3: to It was funny. I was like, I used to
Speaker 3: play soccer terms. I thought he was from Minnesota first, like,
Speaker 3: not off from LA. I'm like, oh man, I'm like,
Speaker 3: I thought you were fro like the Midwestern me and
Speaker 3: so yeah, and then I have some family lives in
Speaker 3: the Twin Cities, so I was able to visit them
Speaker 3: and do the interview with him over there. So it
Speaker 3: worked out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well he was not just because we absolutely adore him,
Speaker 1: but you know, talk about somebody with ethics who has
Speaker 1: the most respect for building that rapport with families, who
Speaker 1: really you know, get to trust him he's a perfect person.
Speaker 1: And then it felt I mean, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you guys talked about this, but to me, once I
Speaker 1: learned he was a part of it, and then seeing it,
Speaker 1: especially the subsequent episodes on the online bowling and the trolling,
Speaker 1: it felt so meta to me because the last documentary
Speaker 1: he was in the Ciso Hotel one. He really got
Speaker 1: a lot of crap online from trolls about how that
Speaker 1: was edited to kind of I don't know, people start
Speaker 1: making up their own minds. I'll just leave it at that.
Speaker 1: But he felt that experience on the other end, and
Speaker 1: I thought, God, what a great project for him to be,
Speaker 1: you know, full circle involved And did you know about
Speaker 1: any of that stuff?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw him. I loved that documentary Vanishing at Hope.
Speaker 3: Elsie's all great. He did an excellent job in it,
Speaker 3: so yeah, he did an excellent job in our documentary
Speaker 3: as well, and he was actually part of it, So yeah,
Speaker 3: he's pretty great.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, What is next up for you and True Christ films?
Speaker 2: Are there other stories that you're just sort of on
Speaker 2: the edge of your seat ready to talk about, or
Speaker 2: that you're passionate about what's next?
Speaker 3: Right now? We have a documentary that we're I would
Speaker 3: say we're in post production. We have most of the interviews.
Speaker 3: We're still waiting on one. It's called the Dine and
Speaker 3: Dash Dater. It's a yes, do you remember this guy? Okay?
Speaker 2: So this is this the LA one or the New
Speaker 2: York on the lah wa we need to talk offline, okay.
Speaker 3: So so basically we have most of the interviews, we're
Speaker 3: still looking for a few more. I think this story
Speaker 3: really talks to the safety issues of dating apps, given
Speaker 3: that dating apps seem to be the number one way
Speaker 3: people are meeting right now. It's not a murder, it's
Speaker 3: not a serial killer that was using dating apps. It
Speaker 3: was a scam, and it wasn't a scam like the
Speaker 3: Tinder swindler where he was taking hundreds of thousands of
Speaker 3: dollars from these women. He was getting a meal, so
Speaker 3: it is a little lower stakes in regards to that. However,
Speaker 3: it was so bizarre. The story was just so bizarre,
Speaker 3: and I think it was very attention grabbing because it
Speaker 3: really brings up who pays on a first date. It
Speaker 3: brings up the argument. I don't want to say it's
Speaker 3: a dark comedy because it is a crime. There were
Speaker 3: victims involved. But I've gotten to know the victims. We
Speaker 3: interviewed them. I don't want to say they can laugh
Speaker 3: about it now, but they were pissed when it happened.
Speaker 3: They were not happy. There's a lot of victims that
Speaker 3: are still out there who would not call this at all,
Speaker 3: you know, something to even joke about or laugh about
Speaker 3: it at all. And I'm not trying to say that
Speaker 3: or put that that's what we're doing, but it's lighter.
Speaker 3: No one got killed, people got scammed out of a meal,
Speaker 3: and I think it's a great story to show bring
Speaker 3: awareness to the dangers of dating, because there's a lot
Speaker 3: worse that can happen. There's serial killers that use dating apps.
Speaker 3: There's murders, there's sexual assaults. You're meeting absolute strangers on
Speaker 3: the internet. You're twenty twenty one, twenty two, your old girl,
Speaker 3: and you really don't understand. I think when you get
Speaker 3: older you probably can. You can use a little more precaution.
Speaker 3: You're going to look up who the person is. You're
Speaker 3: not going to believe everything you hear. But when you're younger,
Speaker 3: I mean you know, you're oh, yeah, everyone's great, everyone's this,
Speaker 3: everyone's that. Let me just go meet the stranger. So
Speaker 3: I think it brings awareness to that. I think dating
Speaker 3: apps are fine. I'm not saying, hey, look they're just horrible,
Speaker 3: but there needs to be precautions. You have to really
Speaker 3: find out who you're going out with before you do.
Speaker 2: I wish you well. I love that you're focusing on that.
Speaker 2: I one of the things in my former work with
Speaker 2: LAPD's Threat Management Unit, one of the discussions I would
Speaker 2: have with my detective friends was that anytime there's a
Speaker 2: new technology, or there's a new expression of existing technology,
Speaker 2: the first adopters are going to be the criminogenetic personalities
Speaker 2: that can think that they can make a buck off
Speaker 2: of it. And what you're talking about, like, yeah, the
Speaker 2: stakes weren't extremely high. Thankfully no one got hurt in
Speaker 2: this particular case, but people are really just not aware that.
Speaker 2: Like now, you drive down a freeway and you get
Speaker 2: a text that like, oh, you drove and you just
Speaker 2: got to eat. We're in a toll lane. You have
Speaker 2: to pay this fifty dollars. I think that's a huge
Speaker 2: scam that's happening here in southern California.
Speaker 3: I get it all the time. I get the text
Speaker 3: all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are so many people that fall for
Speaker 2: that because if they send out ten thousand, I mean,
Speaker 2: this guy was probably swiping right over and over and
Speaker 2: over and over and over again. Here's one that's going
Speaker 2: to go to dinner with me. So yeah, it's I
Speaker 2: wish that the general public. Hopefully your production will will
Speaker 2: educate more people about that.
Speaker 3: And it's done. I think this story does a great
Speaker 3: job and it caught a lot of attention just because
Speaker 3: it was bizarre. What guy goes out for a free meal?
Speaker 3: You know, it's.
Speaker 1: Just bizarre to have you so we can dissect that.
Speaker 3: Really, I was talking to someone else about it. I
Speaker 3: mean I want to interview him. We're looking for him.
Speaker 3: So if you're watching this, you know, please contact this.
Speaker 3: I think the motive behind it is just everyone. I
Speaker 3: asked everyone, you know, why was he doing this? I
Speaker 3: think the psychological analysis of this thing is I mean
Speaker 3: great learning lesson, you know, I mean, just it really is.
Speaker 3: It's why if you got it, it was like it
Speaker 3: was a perfect scan because it wasn't enough money where
Speaker 3: someone's gonna report it and they're embarrassed about it, you
Speaker 3: know what goundred dollars. Let me just go home and
Speaker 3: just forget this ever happened. So he was able to
Speaker 3: do this for years. I mean, he was able to
Speaker 3: lose a lot, a lot, a lot of women. And
Speaker 3: it's one of those things where if you call the
Speaker 3: police and tell them what they were going to laugh
Speaker 3: at you, you know. And there was a tech detective
Speaker 3: that took it on and took it very serious and
Speaker 3: ended it and you know, and found out who he
Speaker 3: was and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: So we are looking forward to that for sure. Before
Speaker 1: we let you go, tell us where people can watch
Speaker 1: the documentary and how they can follow True Case Films
Speaker 1: anywhere social media.
Speaker 3: Or what have you. Yep, you can follow True Case Films.
Speaker 3: That's a handle either on Instagram or Facebook to watch
Speaker 3: vanish the hell they're Elvis Case. It's on Apple TV,
Speaker 3: Amazon Prime Video, and it's also on the YouTube Movies,
Speaker 3: tvod whatever.
Speaker 1: Great.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I you want to watch it and
Speaker 3: let us know how you think of it on social media.
Speaker 3: We'd love to hear your feedback.
Speaker 1: Okay, I just put the website for the documentary into
Speaker 1: the chat once again, so you guys have that. You
Speaker 1: can go there and it gives you every single option
Speaker 1: of where you can watch it. Michael, thank you again
Speaker 1: so much for allowing us to watch the premiere of
Speaker 1: this really, really important story, and once we learned just
Speaker 1: your approach to it, we knew that this was definitely
Speaker 1: something we wanted to talk to you about because we
Speaker 1: hope others are listening. But thank you so much for
Speaker 1: your time tonight.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you guys very much for having me, and
Speaker 3: thank you for coming to the event. And hope you
Speaker 3: guys come to the next event for the Din and
Speaker 3: Dasha when that comes out and we'll have another discussion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're buying dinner though, all right, you guys, thanks
Speaker 1: so much. We will see you next time on La
Speaker 1: Not So Confidential. Take care, guys, have a good night.
Speaker 2: Good night, Hie.
Speaker 1: We sincerely thank you for spending some time with us today.
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