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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm doctor Shiloh and I'm doctor Scott. And this

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<v Speaker 1>is La Not So Confidential, the forensic psychology and true

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<v Speaker 1>crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Each episode, we explore the intersection of psychology, the criminal

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<v Speaker 2>justice system, and entertainment.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome behind the Couch. Today's livestream conversation features filmmaker Michael Bayer,

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<v Speaker 1>the director and producer of the new docuseries Vanished The

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<v Speaker 1>Heather Elvis Case. Hi everyone, Hey, everybody, Welcome Behind the Couch.

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<v Speaker 1>You guys, Hi, Doctor Scott. How you doing. Seems like

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<v Speaker 1>forever forever.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like it's been just forever.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like we're doing these once a month and

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<v Speaker 1>it's kind of like wonky in between. It feels like

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes we just did one. But yeah, it seems like

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<v Speaker 1>forever since I saw this one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thank you for everybody for showing up. I know

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<v Speaker 2>we have usually some late drop ends, but for those

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<v Speaker 2>of you that are watching right now, just a reminder

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<v Speaker 2>we have a live meetup this week in LA. This

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<v Speaker 2>is coming Friday, April eleventh at Bike Shed in downtown

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<v Speaker 2>last Ageelius, So we'll have all the details on social

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<v Speaker 2>media and to those of you that were listening to

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<v Speaker 2>this in May, We hope you enjoyed the meetup or

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<v Speaker 2>sorry you didn't make it, because sometimes it tooks a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit longer to get the use that posted.

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<v Speaker 1>This will drop in our regular audio feed in May,

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<v Speaker 1>so yeah, yeah, we've been planning that. We've also been

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<v Speaker 1>doing some other guest spots lately, so please go watch

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<v Speaker 1>us over on Defense Diaries YouTube channel. We talked about

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<v Speaker 1>the Zizian's cult. I'm going to drop that link in

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<v Speaker 1>the chat right now. That was super interesting. We do

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<v Speaker 1>cover that in our in the News Behind the Couch,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the last one we did, but that was

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<v Speaker 1>just a quick little bite. This one, we really kind

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<v Speaker 1>of get into it a little bit more with Bob

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<v Speaker 1>and Allie. Also recently, so I was just a guest

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<v Speaker 1>on Truth Injustice. Bob Ruff and I discussed the longer

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<v Speaker 1>video segment that came out on Bridge Guy in the

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<v Speaker 1>Delphi case so little behavioral analysis and talked about that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of just our thoughts without getting too deep, without

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<v Speaker 1>you know, kind of hypothesizing too much, just kind of

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<v Speaker 1>looking at it for what it was right after it

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<v Speaker 1>was released. And then next week I am going to

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<v Speaker 1>be on the three hundredth episode of Tennis Podcast when

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<v Speaker 1>it drops, so they have their big three hundredth episode

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<v Speaker 1>like we just did our two hundredth. They can't even know,

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<v Speaker 1>I can't. They got a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Of a head start on us, though, so there's no

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<v Speaker 2>they just.

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<v Speaker 1>Published every single week, but I think we started around

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<v Speaker 1>the same year or so. But man Nick is like

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<v Speaker 1>a one man show over there.

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<v Speaker 3>That's great.

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<v Speaker 2>So I also completely forgot that our dear dear friend

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<v Speaker 2>Josh Hallmark from True Crime, Bullshit and Unsafe Spaces is

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<v Speaker 2>releasing the follow ups now to Unsafe Spaces and is

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<v Speaker 2>utilizing a very extensive interview that we had together. Gosh

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<v Speaker 2>going on about a year and a half, two years,

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<v Speaker 2>it feels like maybe it's only a year. But that's

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<v Speaker 2>a really, really fascinating and horrifying case of serial killers

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<v Speaker 2>in Florida within the gay BDSM community, So please check

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<v Speaker 2>that out. I think, as always, I'm just a huge

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<v Speaker 2>fan of Josh's work, and he always always offers us

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<v Speaker 2>such respect for our work that we do in our

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<v Speaker 2>clinical work and our forensic work, so I really feel

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<v Speaker 2>like I had a lot to offer there. And then

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<v Speaker 2>also just out of the blue, about a month ago,

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<v Speaker 2>I got a great opportunity to be interviewed for an

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<v Speaker 2>article by Alexandra Paul, who is, as most people will know,

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<v Speaker 2>or most people my age would know, was a star

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<v Speaker 2>on the original Baywatch series. And Alexandra is first of all,

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<v Speaker 2>just an absolutely stellar, wonderful human being who went through

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<v Speaker 2>an absolutely horrific incidence of stalking from a completely delusional

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<v Speaker 2>fan over a period of thirteen years. It severely impacted

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<v Speaker 2>her life, her husband, her family, her elderly mother. It

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<v Speaker 2>really is just one of the best worst examples of

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<v Speaker 2>why we need stronger stalking laws here in the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>Shilah is going to put up a link to that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's an online zine called The Ankler, and please go

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<v Speaker 2>read it. Please, not just for my own self edification,

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<v Speaker 2>but please distribute this article. I think every woman needs

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<v Speaker 2>to read this article about being stalked by somebody that's

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<v Speaker 2>not a guy. It's really important that can happen.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a fantastic article. And good for her for

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<v Speaker 1>writing that when she felt like she was ready. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>really put her voice to it. And you know, Cites,

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<v Speaker 1>you're in an article with read Maloy. Read Maloy. You

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<v Speaker 1>know our saint read Maloy. Forensic psychologists also kids cited

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<v Speaker 1>in it, so I mean it's kind of like you

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<v Speaker 1>guys are bestie. Oh my goodness. Okay. So lastly here

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<v Speaker 1>in our housekeeping before we bring on our guest, of

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<v Speaker 1>course our new Patreons. So since we were on here last,

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<v Speaker 1>we have at the associate level we have Sarah M.

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<v Speaker 1>And we have Shay D. The last initial is D.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think that is meaning shady, but I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to die. It is very cool to have that name

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<v Speaker 1>with that initial. And then at the intern level Cameron B.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you guys so very much for being part of

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<v Speaker 1>our Patroon family. Don't forget that if you join at

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<v Speaker 1>the doctoral level, you are entered into a merch giveaway

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<v Speaker 1>every single month. It restarts in January, so if you win,

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<v Speaker 1>we pull your name off and then you know, spin

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<v Speaker 1>the wheel each consecutive month, but January starts all over.

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<v Speaker 1>Everybody gets put back in the pool. So for February

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<v Speaker 1>we have Teresa R. She was our winner. She has

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<v Speaker 1>actually received her goodies today. I sent her some stuff

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<v Speaker 1>after going back and forth with her. And then for March,

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<v Speaker 1>Jessica W which Jessica, if you're listening, check your Patreon

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<v Speaker 1>messages because you actually won two years ago and you

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<v Speaker 1>never got back to this, So you've won twice in

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<v Speaker 1>two years. Those are pretty good odds. I think it

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<v Speaker 1>goes to say, of you know folks who we are

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<v Speaker 1>pulling from in the giveaway, but Jessica, w if that's

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<v Speaker 1>you reach out to us, we emailed you. I want

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure we get you something, whether it's a

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<v Speaker 1>piece of merch or just something fun that you're okay

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<v Speaker 1>with us sending you a little surprise that we do that,

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<v Speaker 1>And I want to make sure your address is still correct.

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<v Speaker 1>So little treats for our devoted Patreon members, which we

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<v Speaker 1>are so thankful for always.

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<v Speaker 2>And onto the main event. May Today, we are joined

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<v Speaker 2>by Michael Bayer, founder of True Case Files and the

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<v Speaker 2>director of the new three part true crime document Vanished,

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<v Speaker 2>the Heather Elvis Case. Michael brings over twelve years of

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<v Speaker 2>experience in video production, having worked on everything from commercials

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<v Speaker 2>and explainer videos to emotionally powerful documentaries, and after stepping

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<v Speaker 2>away from production to help grow his brother's criminal defense

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<v Speaker 2>law firm, Michael gained first hand insight into the world

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<v Speaker 2>of criminal investigations, legal strategy, and the psychological complexity of

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<v Speaker 2>the justice system. So now he's combining his production expertise

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<v Speaker 2>with his legal knowledge to tell real stories with depth

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<v Speaker 2>and impact, and that certainly is the case and vanished

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<v Speaker 2>how they're elvis case that not only explores the mystery

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<v Speaker 2>around her disappearance, but also examines the powerful, sometimes dangerous,

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<v Speaker 2>and overwhelmingly crazy trajectory that this case takes, mainly due

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<v Speaker 2>to social media, and how that is starting to play

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<v Speaker 2>a role in criminal cases. Very very valuable to see

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<v Speaker 2>in this way in today's world. Through this project and

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<v Speaker 2>his team really aim to raise awareness around online harassment

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<v Speaker 2>and spotlight the ongoing pursuit of justice for Heather and

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<v Speaker 2>her family. So welcome Michael, Thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>joining us.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.

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<v Speaker 1>Great to see you again. Yeah, I am very brief

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<v Speaker 1>at the screening, Hey for codam. Yeah, I'm glad we

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<v Speaker 1>could make it happen. Thank you for the invite, And

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<v Speaker 1>it's great to do a follow up like this. Hearing

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<v Speaker 1>about your background is just so nice. Obviously, Scott and

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<v Speaker 1>I appreciate it when professionals in criminal justice and adjacent

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<v Speaker 1>fields then get into content creation, and that really is

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<v Speaker 1>I think an evolution that we've seen in true crime,

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<v Speaker 1>and the consumers seem to be pretty appreciative of that.

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't know if you found that that background

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<v Speaker 1>seems to have some bona fides with it and that

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<v Speaker 1>people understand that, but it's just you know, from our

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<v Speaker 1>point of view, it's been really valuable in this space.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I agree, I think without the backgrounds, I

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<v Speaker 3>probably am most impossible to tell that story. You really

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<v Speaker 3>have to have a good understanding of how criminal psychology works,

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<v Speaker 3>how trials work, the presentation of it, the motive behind

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<v Speaker 3>the crime. So those are things that I really think

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<v Speaker 3>we're key in being able to tell the story the

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<v Speaker 3>way I was able to without that experience impossible.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, many many have tried and done it, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it'll get into more of our conversation of

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<v Speaker 1>what kind of sets us apart. I do want to

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<v Speaker 1>give a very brief overview of Heather's case to the

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<v Speaker 1>audience in case they are not familiar with it, before

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<v Speaker 1>we kind of jump into your journey about creating this

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<v Speaker 1>docu series and just a taste, because of course we

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<v Speaker 1>want people to go and watch this after hearing this.

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<v Speaker 1>But Heather Elvis was a twenty year old cosmetology student

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<v Speaker 1>and restaurant server who disappeared on December eighteenth, twenty thirteen.

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<v Speaker 1>So this was following a first date, which feels sounds suspicious,

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<v Speaker 1>but the AMA side portion of her case remains open now.

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<v Speaker 1>The investigation led to the arrests of Sidney Moore, who

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<v Speaker 1>Heather was in a relationship with, not that person she

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<v Speaker 1>went on the first date with. He was arrested for obstruction, kidnapping,

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<v Speaker 1>and his wife, Tammy Moore, was also arrested for conspiracy

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<v Speaker 1>and kidnapping. And these two are something. I mean, Scott

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<v Speaker 1>and I have talked about a lot of characters and

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<v Speaker 1>true crime documentaries that we have reviewed over the years,

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<v Speaker 1>but man, I mean, I think they might be up

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<v Speaker 1>there and take the cake. As far as again, I'll

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<v Speaker 1>just say characters. We don't psychoanalyze people we have not

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<v Speaker 1>met in real life. But throughout the proceedings of this

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<v Speaker 1>court case, again, social media played a significant role in

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<v Speaker 1>really shaping public perception, which we're seeing more and more

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<v Speaker 1>of all the time. The conflicting narratives, the online trolling component,

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<v Speaker 1>which Scott and I have covered, the psychology of that

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<v Speaker 1>for sure, and specifically these posts made by Tammy and

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<v Speaker 1>her supporters and how that ended up kind of twisting things,

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<v Speaker 1>portraying Heather as a stalker, kind of fueling the controversy

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<v Speaker 1>that impacted, yes, the investigation, but also of course families

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<v Speaker 1>that have to live with this forever. So with that,

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<v Speaker 1>let's talk about the case a little bit.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think you hit a lot of I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>you hit it on the head exactly. The thing about

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<v Speaker 3>the case that interesting characters involved in it, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think that is something that drew me to it as well.

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<v Speaker 3>I think in the Q and A, Allison asked what

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<v Speaker 3>was one main thing that kind of got your attention

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<v Speaker 3>with this case? And I think the handcuffing to the

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<v Speaker 3>bed was this very abnormal behavior, something you don't see

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<v Speaker 3>every day, and the tattoo on his lower stomach, it

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<v Speaker 3>makes you want to dig in more and learn more

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<v Speaker 3>about the relationship and what type of people they are,

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<v Speaker 3>So I found that part interesting also, I think when

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<v Speaker 3>you also dig deeper into the story, which we did

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<v Speaker 3>more than we had more time. So we had it

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<v Speaker 3>was a three part docu series, so Dayline did a

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<v Speaker 3>Dayline did two segments on it. Investigation did one. They

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<v Speaker 3>weren't able to dig deeper into the relationship between them,

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<v Speaker 3>and even father and the sister and the sister's boyfriend

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<v Speaker 3>and all these other people that along the way, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>helping clean the truck, the videos and all this, so

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<v Speaker 3>a lot more of the evidence were able to get

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<v Speaker 3>into and it just shows that the dynamics of the

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<v Speaker 3>personalities of these people involved in the crime. So I

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<v Speaker 3>thought it was I thought it was very interesting from

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<v Speaker 3>a psychological standpoint for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, definitely the development that you're able to create over

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<v Speaker 2>your three episodes. Each one stands alone distinctly with its

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<v Speaker 2>own particular focus, which is a really great concept. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if that was intended, I mean, but it

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<v Speaker 2>really worked to work for me, as you know, for

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<v Speaker 2>someone who works in this area, and also as a

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<v Speaker 2>viewer just a participant, you know, with a bag of popcorn,

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<v Speaker 2>like it was that engaging, and you know, for those

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<v Speaker 2>of who have not had the opportunity to see it yet,

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<v Speaker 2>Episode one really focuses on Heather herself, her background, her personality,

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<v Speaker 2>her you know, coming of age challenges as the teenager

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<v Speaker 2>right into this event, sledding into her disappearance. So that

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<v Speaker 2>made me wonder as we were sitting watching and thank

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<v Speaker 2>you very much for inviting us to the event and

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<v Speaker 2>to the premiere, But that helps me generate this first question,

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<v Speaker 2>what initially drew you to Heather's case and what about

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<v Speaker 2>this particular case made it feel important to you to

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<v Speaker 2>revisit now over a decade later.

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<v Speaker 3>The online harassment aspect of it was what originally drew

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<v Speaker 3>me through. I personally went through kind of a very

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<v Speaker 3>very minor situation around twenty sixteen as a family member

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<v Speaker 3>kind of had one of these character type people who

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<v Speaker 3>used social media in a negative way. It was the

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<v Speaker 3>first time I've ever seen social media or Facebook being

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<v Speaker 3>used this way, just being able to start rumors and

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<v Speaker 3>weren't true and help. People were contacting me, Hey did

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<v Speaker 3>you say this about me? Say that about I was

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<v Speaker 3>just like like what, I used to have no privacy

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<v Speaker 3>settings on my Facebook account. Didn't think anything of it.

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<v Speaker 3>Didn't think anything of it. Maybe you want to be

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<v Speaker 3>my friend who cares? I didn't didn't see any danger

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<v Speaker 3>of it. I think when social media first started, a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of people were like, this is something that just

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<v Speaker 3>throw your stuff out there, put all your information out

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<v Speaker 3>there and whatever. I mean, there's no harm behind it.

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<v Speaker 3>That was the first time I was like, wow, like

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<v Speaker 3>this can really be used as a dangerous weapon. And

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<v Speaker 3>at the time I was working with my brother and

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<v Speaker 3>I had an experience in production. I said, I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 3>mind making a documentary about this topic cyber stocking. So

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<v Speaker 3>I was going to make Originally I was going to

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<v Speaker 3>make a documentary just about online harassment, cyber stocking, people

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<v Speaker 3>who use the Internet and social media in negative ways.

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<v Speaker 3>Then I was looking for different examples of it, and

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<v Speaker 3>I came across the story. When I came across the story,

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<v Speaker 3>I looked and watched into it and I was like wow.

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<v Speaker 3>And then I saw the whole thing about Tammy and

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<v Speaker 3>the handcuffing, and then you just draw in and then

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, Okay, go all the way back. This

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<v Speaker 3>crime isn't solved yet, she's still missing, so really grab

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<v Speaker 3>my attention. Maybe we can bring awareness to it. There's

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<v Speaker 3>the whole online harassment part. I can maybe mess these

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<v Speaker 3>two things together. I'm sure, I thought to myself, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>sure the family would want to shine light on this story.

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<v Speaker 3>And that online harassment part wasn't told. I just found

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<v Speaker 3>it all online, but I watched it. Then I did

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<v Speaker 3>a little further investigation. I watched the Dayline episodes, watched

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<v Speaker 3>the Investigation Discovery episode No One talks about this, and

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, this is probably one of the main

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<v Speaker 3>parts of this story. I want to do this, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's also going to help the case. It's

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<v Speaker 3>a topic you can tell a story through a story

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<v Speaker 3>type deal.

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<v Speaker 2>So you actually even covered question one in question two.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for I don't know if.

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<v Speaker 1>You you didn't intend to do it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's great. I really am so glad that you focused

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<v Speaker 2>on the phenomenon of trolling. And Shiloh and I did

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<v Speaker 2>a deep dive in one of our episodes into this

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<v Speaker 2>phenomenon and why it's continuing to explode, and one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that we both you know, we didn't get

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<v Speaker 2>a chance to talk about it as much as the

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<v Speaker 2>actions itself by people who perpetrate it, but the frustration

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<v Speaker 2>on our part. And this is not victim shaming at all,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's the idea that we would hope in today's

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<v Speaker 2>world that most people would know to turn on their

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<v Speaker 2>privacy settings, and yet people still don't. You know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>been fifteen years since this all exploded and people still don't.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's also sort of sobering to see that not

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<v Speaker 2>only are there some really bad actors out there, there

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<v Speaker 2>are some people out there that are expressing their inner rage,

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<v Speaker 2>their inner frustration and taking it out, you know, behind

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<v Speaker 2>this safety of the keyboard. But we also have people

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<v Speaker 2>that are not critically thinking about it, right, Like they're

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<v Speaker 2>not thinking about is this true or not. So in

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<v Speaker 2>the case that you're presenting, people can hop on Tammy's

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<v Speaker 2>bandwagon and just absolutely, you know, help her become this

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<v Speaker 2>avalanche of trolling that occurred. So I'm really really glad

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<v Speaker 2>that you focused on that. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and Scott and I have seen you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>think what you highlighted not just the trolling and how

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<v Speaker 1>you know they kind of weaponized it. The suspects essentially

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<v Speaker 1>kind of weaponize that to try and create their own narrative.

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<v Speaker 1>But I mean, really we're talking about like this leading

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<v Speaker 1>to some real life horrific events for the family, which

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<v Speaker 1>we have seen with other survivors and family members of victims,

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<v Speaker 1>where we're talking probably they were shot at, that they're

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<v Speaker 1>being chased and stocked themselves, you know, really moments where

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<v Speaker 1>just unbelievable things unfold, especially like in episode two where

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<v Speaker 1>you're really covering what that led to that is completely

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<v Speaker 1>distracting them from the fact that they're still looking for

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<v Speaker 1>their daughter.

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<v Speaker 3>Right. And the stalking started online, but it also then

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<v Speaker 3>it came offline as well, and we covered I didn't

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<v Speaker 3>really know much into these stories until I started talking

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<v Speaker 3>to Debbie Elvis, the family members, Morgan and Terry, and

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00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:23.720
<v Speaker 3>they were they were like, no, just it just it

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00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:28.200
<v Speaker 3>wasn't just online harassment. This turned into in person stalking,

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<v Speaker 3>and it was just in talking to them. How can

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<v Speaker 3>you imagine going through a situation where you think everybody's

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<v Speaker 3>going to want to help you to find your daughter,

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<v Speaker 3>and now you have these random people who think you

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00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.279
<v Speaker 3>did it and are going out of their way to

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00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:46.039
<v Speaker 3>harass you in person. Yeah, you know, it's just it's

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<v Speaker 3>eye openly shocking. And people are starting to really realize

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<v Speaker 3>the internet. When you start getting it's like bullying almost

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<v Speaker 3>or I don't know what we're to say, but people

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<v Speaker 3>get on these the idea, then the group gets, the

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<v Speaker 3>whole group piles and then they become they get their

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<v Speaker 3>own status in the group and so and this can

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<v Speaker 3>snowball up to the point where people are shooting at

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<v Speaker 3>you or harassing you in person just to get just

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<v Speaker 3>to get a little higher up in that little group

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<v Speaker 3>that's online, and these people find themselves, they find their

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<v Speaker 3>little group this way, I'm guessing. And when I heard

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<v Speaker 3>the story deeper and deeper there's I mean, a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of these people are just random people. You know. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>Tammy Moore was a person that was spearheading this, there

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<v Speaker 3>were other people that were leaders of the group, but

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<v Speaker 3>these other followers just jump on and it's like a

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<v Speaker 3>cult almost.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm really glad you said that. I think you

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<v Speaker 2>actually are making a really good point because one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things for people that are on the outside of

356
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<v Speaker 2>cults can look in on maybe a cult or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a cult ish type behavior or organization that a family

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<v Speaker 2>member or a friend has fallen into, and when you

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<v Speaker 2>have that distance, you can look at the leaders of

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00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.519
<v Speaker 2>it and you can go, what the hell, Like, this

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00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:01.559
<v Speaker 2>person's crazy, why are you listening to them? And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>all without going into diagnostic criteria, Tammy and her husband

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<v Speaker 2>are odd characters, and that's being kind to put it.

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<v Speaker 2>They're both clearly like every basic sort of boundary of

365
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<v Speaker 2>lying is totally transgressed every time they open their mouths.

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<v Speaker 2>They're strange in the way they interact, they're defensive in

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<v Speaker 2>the way they answer questions, and so the idea that

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<v Speaker 2>they would have such a following and such a defensive

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<v Speaker 2>following in their online supporters is really a big part

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<v Speaker 2>of this story. So yeah, I like how you dipped

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<v Speaker 2>into that in the second episode. I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>a really important part of this narrative.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and another thing is when I was talking to Debbie,

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<v Speaker 3>it was difficult where we're interviewing her to really grasp

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<v Speaker 3>the whole picture, because, Okay, you have Tammy, you have Sydney,

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<v Speaker 3>and then you have all these trolls. What's the motivation

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<v Speaker 3>behind the trolls? I kept thinking to myself, where's the

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<v Speaker 3>connection here? Why are these people wanting to help out

379
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<v Speaker 3>these other people? And then I really I looked more

380
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<v Speaker 3>into it. There are people out there who just this

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<v Speaker 3>is their group and they think some of them think

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<v Speaker 3>they're doing good, they're cracking the case. They they think

383
00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:17.480
<v Speaker 3>Terry's doing power from that right that they're the ones

384
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<v Speaker 3>who are figuring out a conspiracy that no one else knows.

385
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<v Speaker 3>And it's wild how this whole and Tammy does have

386
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<v Speaker 3>that personality of being a leader, and she's a strong

387
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.400
<v Speaker 3>personality and she was very manipulative, you could say, and

388
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:36.319
<v Speaker 3>you could see how she was using soft puppet accounts

389
00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:38.880
<v Speaker 3>and other things to be able to draw people in

390
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<v Speaker 3>a very intelligent person or not dumb at all.

391
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<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no, not at all, very very intelligent, right,

392
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<v Speaker 2>and very very much all these elements of coercive control

393
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<v Speaker 2>and her relationship with you know, the manipulation, the tattooing

394
00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.279
<v Speaker 2>is I mean, I remember Shiloh, and I like other

395
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<v Speaker 2>members of the audience, explain it.

396
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Scott for the audience does oh, oh my gosh, sorry,

397
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<v Speaker 1>I got like this is why, like I forget and

398
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<v Speaker 1>I think I'm sitting across the table from Michael.

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<v Speaker 2>So in the first episode of this series, what you

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<v Speaker 2>find out, amongst all the other oddities and strange dynamics

401
00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:20.039
<v Speaker 2>within the relationship between Tammy and Sydney is that she

402
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.519
<v Speaker 2>believes that he's having an affair, and so she really

403
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:28.680
<v Speaker 2>ramps up some behaviors that are very much within the

404
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:36.359
<v Speaker 2>realm of coercive control, dominating behaviors, really emotional abuse, and Sydney,

405
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.640
<v Speaker 2>for whatever is going on in his personality, goes along

406
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:40.799
<v Speaker 2>with it. And one of one of the things you

407
00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.759
<v Speaker 2>find out as a member of the audience is that

408
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<v Speaker 2>at one point she sleeps with him handcuffed to the

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<v Speaker 2>bed and he admits to it, and later in the

410
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.880
<v Speaker 2>trial she denies it. But then it moves on from

411
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.880
<v Speaker 2>that to she demands, in retribution for him having the

412
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:05.160
<v Speaker 2>alleged affair, that he get a tattoo in big, you know,

413
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:09.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of English Gothic letters across his lower abdomen, almost

414
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:13.079
<v Speaker 2>like a gang sign, but it's her name across his

415
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:17.839
<v Speaker 2>lower abdomen. It's also an awful tattoo, and so it's

416
00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:21.079
<v Speaker 2>and I don't say that for for humor's sake, although

417
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:23.240
<v Speaker 2>it is kind of funny, but there was a really

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00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.519
<v Speaker 2>uncomfortable reaction in the audience when that flashes up on

419
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.519
<v Speaker 2>the screen and there's a excuse my language, there's a

420
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:33.119
<v Speaker 2>what the fuck moment and a real funeral giggle that

421
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:39.920
<v Speaker 2>went through the audience because it's so crazy that someone

422
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.200
<v Speaker 2>would demand this of their partner, and then that the

423
00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.279
<v Speaker 2>partner would agree with it, which I think speaks to

424
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.920
<v Speaker 2>just how intelligently manipulative she was in that relationship, how.

425
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:52.400
<v Speaker 3>Much controls you had, absolutely and.

426
00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.960
<v Speaker 1>That surprised you. There was a laughter when that image

427
00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:58.400
<v Speaker 1>came up on the screen, you know, and what did

428
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.720
<v Speaker 1>you I'm just curious, like, were you in afecting.

429
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:00.759
<v Speaker 2>That at all?

430
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.279
<v Speaker 3>Right? I don't think people were laughing, and like I

431
00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:08.799
<v Speaker 3>think Scott said at Bessie, it was humor comfortable laugh

432
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.960
<v Speaker 3>type yeah, right, like it's like wow, you know, it's

433
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:15.680
<v Speaker 3>same with the handcuffing. It's it's funny, but it's funny

434
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:19.000
<v Speaker 3>in a really weird, strange way. It's it's almost like

435
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:23.480
<v Speaker 3>you it's bizarre. I think bizarre is a word to use. Bizarre. Yeah,

436
00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:24.640
<v Speaker 3>you don't see that all the time.

437
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.599
<v Speaker 1>You do not see you? No, no, no, And I'm

438
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:30.599
<v Speaker 1>just thinking, you know, Scott and I for a couple

439
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.000
<v Speaker 1>of years, once a month we would review a true

440
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.119
<v Speaker 1>crime documentary into an episode on it. And this couple

441
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.000
<v Speaker 1>does give me vibes of the Natalia Grace parents, right,

442
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:46.240
<v Speaker 1>like the very domineering, manipulative woman, the mom and then

443
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:51.559
<v Speaker 1>the just very bizarre presenting Dad. I don't know you

444
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:55.200
<v Speaker 1>you really get that from what we are able to

445
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:56.680
<v Speaker 1>see and then what you were able to pull into

446
00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:01.200
<v Speaker 1>the documentary through footage, TV interviews, news interviews of course,

447
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:04.680
<v Speaker 1>the trials, and then through the re enactments as well.

448
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.559
<v Speaker 1>Just how there probably is a lot of fear built

449
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:11.160
<v Speaker 1>into Sydney, like saying, you know, why would he go

450
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:13.680
<v Speaker 1>through with getting this tattoo? Well, maybe she made it

451
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:16.200
<v Speaker 1>so he didn't have a whole lot of a choice there, right,

452
00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:19.319
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned you know obviously sitting down and talking with

453
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:23.359
<v Speaker 1>Heather's parents and sister and friends. Tell us what that

454
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:26.920
<v Speaker 1>was like to come in as a filmmaker and start

455
00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:29.599
<v Speaker 1>building a rapport with them. I mean you can tell

456
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:32.240
<v Speaker 1>especially I don't know. I mean there's a real hesitance

457
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:36.920
<v Speaker 1>to them obviously through everything they've been through, and the

458
00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:39.039
<v Speaker 1>dad just seems like he would be a tough nut

459
00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:41.440
<v Speaker 1>to crack. I mean, he wears his heart on his sleeve,

460
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:44.720
<v Speaker 1>and you know, God bless both of them. But what

461
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.000
<v Speaker 1>was that like to come in and say, here's my idea,

462
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:49.799
<v Speaker 1>trust me to tell your daughter's story.

463
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:55.559
<v Speaker 3>It was difficult. I think anytime anybody goes through a

464
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.200
<v Speaker 3>situation like they did, they're going to be guarded. It

465
00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:03.759
<v Speaker 3>takes time, takes trust. Summer Dash was another producer on this,

466
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:07.200
<v Speaker 3>and she had a prior relationship with them because she

467
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.680
<v Speaker 3>was a local reporter. So she's the one who approached them.

468
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.039
<v Speaker 3>As for being comfortable with me, it took them time.

469
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:20.200
<v Speaker 3>Now we're like friends, so you know, really and any

470
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:24.039
<v Speaker 3>follow up interviews, I told Debbie anything you need, I

471
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:26.880
<v Speaker 3>just want to help, you know. They but it takes

472
00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:29.440
<v Speaker 3>time because they don't know who I am. This is

473
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:33.680
<v Speaker 3>this was my first true crime documentary, and they didn't

474
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.200
<v Speaker 3>know what story I wanted to tell. They were. They

475
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:39.200
<v Speaker 3>were always guarded a lot because of the situation they

476
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:42.319
<v Speaker 3>had with all the conspiracy theories and everyone in the

477
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.400
<v Speaker 3>everyone that everything that happened on social media. They didn't

478
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:47.039
<v Speaker 3>they didn't know what angle I came from. I think

479
00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:51.039
<v Speaker 3>having Summer and jim in Summer and Jimmy Richardson the solicitor,

480
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:53.319
<v Speaker 3>he was the first one to kind of get on

481
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.480
<v Speaker 3>board and say, hey, look this, Mike's going to do

482
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:58.519
<v Speaker 3>a good job. And I think after I had that,

483
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:02.759
<v Speaker 3>it slowly they started to feel more comfortable. But another

484
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:05.240
<v Speaker 3>thing about making a good documentary and interviewing someone, as

485
00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:07.640
<v Speaker 3>you guys know, it takes a while to build trust

486
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:10.160
<v Speaker 3>and to get them to open up about their story.

487
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:12.039
<v Speaker 3>It's not something where you just throw a camera on

488
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:14.519
<v Speaker 3>someone's face and say, okay, what happened here? Here? Here?

489
00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:16.960
<v Speaker 3>They have to really, they have to get to trust

490
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.359
<v Speaker 3>you and be open. And that's a very important part

491
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:22.240
<v Speaker 3>of making these type of documentaries and these stories are

492
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:24.559
<v Speaker 3>This isn't about opening up about hey, what do you

493
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:27.599
<v Speaker 3>think about the economy or tell me about your job

494
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:29.799
<v Speaker 3>history that I mean, this is something that they lost

495
00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:32.920
<v Speaker 3>their daughter. She's still missing, so it was something they

496
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:35.000
<v Speaker 3>had to feel comfortable with it, but took it took while,

497
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:35.559
<v Speaker 3>it took time.

498
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:38.519
<v Speaker 2>So can you kind of lead us through your process on,

499
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:43.079
<v Speaker 2>like in a practical way, about how you navigated this.

500
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:47.759
<v Speaker 2>The narrative style dives into both the emotional impact and

501
00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:51.519
<v Speaker 2>the legal details. How do you, as a producer work

502
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.079
<v Speaker 2>with your colleagues and you know, your creative team to

503
00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.000
<v Speaker 2>balance these two storytelling elements.

504
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.240
<v Speaker 3>That's a good question and a lot of times every

505
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:06.519
<v Speaker 3>filmmaker is going to have a different style. So some

506
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:10.880
<v Speaker 3>filmmakers concentrate more on facts and timeline and you know,

507
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.160
<v Speaker 3>they or whatever part maybe evidence they like, or they

508
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.079
<v Speaker 3>want mystery or who did it? That's a huge storyline

509
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 3>that's very very popular. My style is more I like

510
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.759
<v Speaker 3>to mix. I like to mix the facts part, but

511
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.400
<v Speaker 3>I do like to concentrate a lot on the emotional part,

512
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:33.400
<v Speaker 3>the relationships between people part. The psychology part, I think

513
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.160
<v Speaker 3>is very very interesting showing the character. You do need

514
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:39.440
<v Speaker 3>the facts, always need the facts. I mean, people want

515
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:41.720
<v Speaker 3>to know what happened. Also, I like to skip around

516
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:45.119
<v Speaker 3>in the timeline in order to keep people's attention. Show

517
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.359
<v Speaker 3>them something, move them back, move them forward. I'm not

518
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:50.279
<v Speaker 3>saying all documentaries are going to be made like that,

519
00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:53.000
<v Speaker 3>but I like that style. But as for setting it up,

520
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:55.079
<v Speaker 3>because I've seen where you have footage or you have

521
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:57.839
<v Speaker 3>everything together and in someone could cut that up and

522
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:00.839
<v Speaker 3>it's a completely different movie than if an other person did.

523
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:04.920
<v Speaker 3>I think one thing that's very important when making the

524
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:07.440
<v Speaker 3>documentary or a movie in general is don't put too

525
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.240
<v Speaker 3>much information in there and make people feel something. I

526
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:13.559
<v Speaker 3>think you have to people feel something, and that's something

527
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.119
<v Speaker 3>that people always want to tell information. Well, they have

528
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:18.000
<v Speaker 3>to know everything. If they don't know this part, they

529
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.240
<v Speaker 3>don't know this part, they're not going to understand the story.

530
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:22.960
<v Speaker 3>Because if you noticed one thing that I skipped over,

531
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:26.400
<v Speaker 3>and I spoke to Debbie Elvis about this, she goes, Wow,

532
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.200
<v Speaker 3>she goes, you did a really good job of telling

533
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.160
<v Speaker 3>the story in regards to what you put in and

534
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.160
<v Speaker 3>what you kept out. Because even at the trial. There

535
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:37.799
<v Speaker 3>was so much stuff the prosecutors had a hard time

536
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:40.559
<v Speaker 3>with that. She's like, I'm gonna show Nancy Live saying,

537
00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:42.000
<v Speaker 3>these people, you know, you did a really good job.

538
00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:43.960
<v Speaker 3>They're going to be shocked to see how what you

539
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.279
<v Speaker 3>kept in what you kept out. For example, the first

540
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:49.640
<v Speaker 3>trial for Sidney Moore was a mistrial. I could have

541
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.559
<v Speaker 3>spent ten minutes on that. I had it just as

542
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:53.960
<v Speaker 3>one line. And when I was first editing the movie,

543
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:55.640
<v Speaker 3>I did have all that stuff in there, and I

544
00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:58.279
<v Speaker 3>was scratching my head. I'm like, God, this really slows

545
00:30:58.279 --> 00:31:01.599
<v Speaker 3>it down, confuses people. Well, there's one trial, there's two trials.

546
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:04.680
<v Speaker 3>People don't understand a mistrial. They really don't get it's

547
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:07.680
<v Speaker 3>just gonna it could really just stop the movie right there,

548
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.720
<v Speaker 3>slow everything down. So I'm just going to put one

549
00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:12.480
<v Speaker 3>sentence as a mistrial. And then now we have two trials,

550
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.079
<v Speaker 3>so Tammy and Sydney, but they use the same evidence.

551
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.359
<v Speaker 3>How do you do that? If I was to do

552
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.480
<v Speaker 3>one trial and then another trial until the same that

553
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:23.599
<v Speaker 3>was very difficult to navigate. So I said, let's just

554
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.680
<v Speaker 3>combine them together, take the key moments from both of them,

555
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:29.039
<v Speaker 3>because it's the same evidence and just move them across

556
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:32.599
<v Speaker 3>the timeline. I think it worked, but other people could

557
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.359
<v Speaker 3>cut that apart, and they could do they could have

558
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:36.039
<v Speaker 3>spent ten minutes on that first trial and then in

559
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:38.519
<v Speaker 3>a mistrial then, but I think you to confuse people,

560
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:41.079
<v Speaker 3>so you have to keep people's interest and not give

561
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:42.200
<v Speaker 3>them too much information.

562
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:46.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you for that creative choice, because I think

563
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.160
<v Speaker 1>a lot of times when Scott and I have covered

564
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:53.960
<v Speaker 1>documentaries were like, there is too much trial stuff in here. Yes,

565
00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:57.200
<v Speaker 1>is how important is it? Of course? And then you

566
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.720
<v Speaker 1>know you have Tammy getting on the stand and you

567
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:02.279
<v Speaker 1>know that is such a shit show that you have

568
00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:02.759
<v Speaker 1>to put her.

569
00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:08.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's interesting and important too, because it's really in

570
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:11.599
<v Speaker 2>the way she she shows the audience who she is

571
00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:13.839
<v Speaker 2>as well as the jury. I mean, it is just

572
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:18.799
<v Speaker 2>it's it was some really good filmmaking with her.

573
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:21.440
<v Speaker 3>Did a great job. Yeah, I mean, she really showed

574
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:24.079
<v Speaker 3>her It's hard to hide if you ever sit down

575
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:27.240
<v Speaker 3>in a court. When I went to Oriy County Courthouse,

576
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.359
<v Speaker 3>I sat down in the same chair that because Jimmy

577
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:33.119
<v Speaker 3>Richardson let us shoot in there. So I sat down

578
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:35.400
<v Speaker 3>that same chair and I looked at the jury and

579
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.839
<v Speaker 3>I go God, it would be very, very difficult to

580
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:39.720
<v Speaker 3>sit here and look at these twelve people all in

581
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.720
<v Speaker 3>the face and try to lie to them and gaslight them.

582
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:45.680
<v Speaker 3>It's an amazing justice system that we have where they

583
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:47.960
<v Speaker 3>can just you're you're on trial, You're sitting in front

584
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:50.440
<v Speaker 3>of these people, and you have to explain yourself.

585
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:53.319
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, interesting choice for them to put her on

586
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:56.519
<v Speaker 1>the stand, and certainly she you know, sink her own ship,

587
00:32:56.680 --> 00:33:00.279
<v Speaker 1>but I applaud that choice definitely. I want to ask

588
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.559
<v Speaker 1>you just in that vein. You know another thing Scott

589
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:07.200
<v Speaker 1>and I kind of look at is the ethics behind

590
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:10.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, the considerations given when making a documentary. And

591
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:12.200
<v Speaker 1>of course you know we're talking to you, so we

592
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.960
<v Speaker 1>get to ask you that question. We don't always know absolutely,

593
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:18.519
<v Speaker 1>but you know a lot. You said you want the

594
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:22.079
<v Speaker 1>audience to feel something, and so often I think we

595
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:26.960
<v Speaker 1>have talked about watching a documentary and feeling gross afterwards,

596
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:30.480
<v Speaker 1>feeling like it was more exploitative, like the cameras were

597
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.279
<v Speaker 1>kept on a little too long when people started to

598
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:37.680
<v Speaker 1>get uncomfortable. And you know, another friend of ours, Leonora Claire,

599
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.599
<v Speaker 1>who does some consulting in the victim advocacy space, is

600
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:45.680
<v Speaker 1>really advocated like having people on set to be a

601
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:47.440
<v Speaker 1>go between to say, like so and so needs a

602
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:49.440
<v Speaker 1>break or what have you. How did you kind of

603
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.119
<v Speaker 1>think about going into that in terms of working with

604
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:54.599
<v Speaker 1>people that were in such a vulnerable state, yet of

605
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:57.400
<v Speaker 1>course wanting to hear from them, because that's a hard

606
00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.279
<v Speaker 1>thing to balance, But just curious of your comment her

607
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:00.799
<v Speaker 1>thoughts on that.

608
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:05.000
<v Speaker 3>As a filmmaker, I think it's very important to look

609
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:07.640
<v Speaker 3>at the point of view coming from the victim in

610
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:11.239
<v Speaker 3>regards to how you tell the story. A lot of people, again,

611
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:14.559
<v Speaker 3>they're trying to make entertainment out of something and you,

612
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:18.639
<v Speaker 3>for example, we could have started the movie out making

613
00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:21.199
<v Speaker 3>it look like Terry was involved or something, or you know,

614
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:23.880
<v Speaker 3>just to keep people's attention and have a huge twisting

615
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.440
<v Speaker 3>turn and then he's not. But yet you could do

616
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:29.800
<v Speaker 3>things that make it a little more entertaining. But now

617
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:34.159
<v Speaker 3>you're twisting things up, you're omitting information. There's things in

618
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.159
<v Speaker 3>there where you could put in the movie to make

619
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:42.440
<v Speaker 3>it the part where they're describing Heather or anything like that,

620
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:47.119
<v Speaker 3>making more gruesome, more stuff like that. So for example,

621
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:50.840
<v Speaker 3>in our reenactments, we didn't have anything showing Heather being

622
00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:53.440
<v Speaker 3>killed or murdered or anything. And that's something that I

623
00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:55.719
<v Speaker 3>would not want to put in there because I wouldn't

624
00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:58.199
<v Speaker 3>want the victims to have to watch that. So I

625
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.920
<v Speaker 3>do think about the victims and recall cards to their

626
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:03.039
<v Speaker 3>feelings about the whole thing too. You want people to feel,

627
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:05.519
<v Speaker 3>but you also have to look at them and say, hey, look,

628
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:07.440
<v Speaker 3>did they want this out there and everyone to see

629
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:09.039
<v Speaker 3>their family member in that way?

630
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:11.280
<v Speaker 1>So well, and look, I mean, I think it's a

631
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:14.280
<v Speaker 1>testament too. It doesn't need that stuff, right, It doesn't

632
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:18.079
<v Speaker 1>need the gruesome crime scene photos, even the descriptions, or

633
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:22.159
<v Speaker 1>even the reenactments as well. So what a testament to

634
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:24.360
<v Speaker 1>be able to get the story out there making people

635
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:28.079
<v Speaker 1>feel something without also having to like throw the red

636
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.519
<v Speaker 1>herrings in there. Right, So you're like, oh my gosh,

637
00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:34.000
<v Speaker 1>and with a three parter, I mean, that's easily digestible too.

638
00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:34.880
<v Speaker 3>I wanted.

639
00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:37.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm so glad that you shared that about the sort

640
00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:40.239
<v Speaker 2>of the your choice not to engage in a bait

641
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:44.360
<v Speaker 2>and switch, because that really is a technique that seems

642
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:47.280
<v Speaker 2>to be used a lot, because this is just such

643
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:50.559
<v Speaker 2>a prolific genre at the moment. You know, all of

644
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:56.360
<v Speaker 2>the big names are recycling shows from twenty years ago

645
00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:59.320
<v Speaker 2>when this started, you know, dateline all of those they're

646
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:04.360
<v Speaker 2>bringing maybe some new information in. But in today's world,

647
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:08.360
<v Speaker 2>with the challenges that you're talking about with social media,

648
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:11.159
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of the problem when you do a bait

649
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.199
<v Speaker 2>and switch. If you're going to build something up as

650
00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.639
<v Speaker 2>a possibility, that creator, whether they mean to or not,

651
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:22.280
<v Speaker 2>is feeding the flame of what ifs and conspiracy theories.

652
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:26.239
<v Speaker 2>And you've now just built up a case and one

653
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:29.679
<v Speaker 2>line of saying, but he was proved innocent by a

654
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:31.599
<v Speaker 2>blood test, and now we're on It's like, well, wait,

655
00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:34.039
<v Speaker 2>you just built this up for ten minutes, and now

656
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:37.920
<v Speaker 2>you're going to dismiss it with literally three words the audience.

657
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.559
<v Speaker 2>You've already planted the seed. You can't unplant that seed

658
00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:43.519
<v Speaker 2>in a listener's mind. I love that you have this approach.

659
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.000
<v Speaker 2>I think that is just a lot more ethical in

660
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 2>an approach.

661
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:48.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and not every crime documentary has to be who

662
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:52.920
<v Speaker 3>did It? I think they got popular in the Netflix,

663
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:56.199
<v Speaker 3>I mean especially now Netflix. I mean it seems to

664
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:59.440
<v Speaker 3>be a lot of their true crime documentaries follow that storyline.

665
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:01.079
<v Speaker 3>It's popular. I mean I like them too, I mean

666
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:04.039
<v Speaker 3>they're interesting, but I remember watching one. I think it

667
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.079
<v Speaker 3>was what about Jennifer or something, and they had you

668
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 3>wondering who it was, who it was, who was and

669
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:10.920
<v Speaker 3>it got to the end, but all they did was

670
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:13.679
<v Speaker 3>check her phone. I mean, it wasn't like a huge mystery.

671
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:15.000
<v Speaker 3>I mean, there are a few of them that were

672
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.760
<v Speaker 3>really really good. I will say where there's like huge

673
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:21.280
<v Speaker 3>twist and turns and where they falsely accused someone and

674
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.079
<v Speaker 3>they found out that person didn't do it. So I

675
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:25.519
<v Speaker 3>mean that storyline works, but to try to make that

676
00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:28.599
<v Speaker 3>storyline out of where it doesn't belong, I mean, there's

677
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.760
<v Speaker 3>other storylines in this documentary. I think the storyline was

678
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:34.239
<v Speaker 3>good versus evil, and I saw a huge conflict between

679
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.400
<v Speaker 3>the victims and the perpetrators. In the conflict didn't just

680
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.880
<v Speaker 3>go between Tammy and Heather. It went between Tammy the

681
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:44.559
<v Speaker 3>whole moors, and then the cases too and the Elvis family.

682
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:48.400
<v Speaker 3>So there was a huge conflict that naturally keeps your

683
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.960
<v Speaker 3>attention because it's just going back and forth. I don't

684
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.920
<v Speaker 3>want to everything. Well, then you have the ending, you know,

685
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.280
<v Speaker 3>so you had the resolution. It had a natural story

686
00:37:56.440 --> 00:37:58.599
<v Speaker 3>of good and evil too, is what I saw after

687
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:01.800
<v Speaker 3>I got watched all the trial, listened to all the interviews.

688
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.000
<v Speaker 3>That's the storyline that I saw stuck out the most

689
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:05.320
<v Speaker 3>to me, So that's what I went with.

690
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.320
<v Speaker 1>That makes a lot of sense.

691
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:15.320
<v Speaker 2>I found something. I remember watching the third episode and

692
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:19.159
<v Speaker 2>thinking there was something that was happening. I don't want

693
00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:20.760
<v Speaker 2>to give again, like you, I don't want to give

694
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:22.480
<v Speaker 2>away too much of this, but I just want to

695
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.519
<v Speaker 2>encourage everyone to please go watch this as soon as

696
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:31.480
<v Speaker 2>you can, because as you're listening to Tammy b deposed,

697
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I got really surprised that she was allowed to talk

698
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:40.920
<v Speaker 2>the way that she was. She was constantly interrupting. I mean,

699
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:44.000
<v Speaker 2>the defensiveness. I get that's going to happen in a trial,

700
00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:46.760
<v Speaker 2>but there was one physical thing that just punched me

701
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:48.559
<v Speaker 2>in the gut. And what to me was so telling

702
00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:53.840
<v Speaker 2>is the way she kept turning to the jury to explain.

703
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.880
<v Speaker 2>And it was so reminiscent of Amber heard during Amberhard's trial,

704
00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:00.760
<v Speaker 2>where it's like I've got an audience, so I'm going

705
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:02.920
<v Speaker 2>to change my focus and I'm going to explain to you.

706
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:05.400
<v Speaker 2>This attorney is not giving me any respect, but I'm

707
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:06.559
<v Speaker 2>going to play to you.

708
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:09.639
<v Speaker 3>I'm going over there, I'm going over your head exactly.

709
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:13.440
<v Speaker 2>And most defense attorneys that I've worked with will always

710
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:16.440
<v Speaker 2>tell their clients do not address the jury that way.

711
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:18.840
<v Speaker 2>It will work against you, it will turn them against you.

712
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.639
<v Speaker 2>But unfortunately, that's always a narcissist fall right. The narcissist

713
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:26.519
<v Speaker 2>always thinks that they know better than everybody else and

714
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:28.880
<v Speaker 2>that they're going to be able to run the show

715
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:30.199
<v Speaker 2>in a successful way.

716
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:34.360
<v Speaker 3>I agree. I agree. It shows the character and the

717
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:38.920
<v Speaker 3>way she was talking to the prosecutor, Nancy, calling her Nancy.

718
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:41.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, I mean, what a great comeback by Nancy.

719
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.079
<v Speaker 1>She's like, I'm sorry, have we met.

720
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.320
<v Speaker 3>Nancy? And that's one thing I really liked about the

721
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:49.800
<v Speaker 3>trial because I watched it three times. She is an

722
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:56.519
<v Speaker 3>amazing prosecutor, unflappable, amazing and a very very nice person.

723
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.000
<v Speaker 3>When I saw her met her in person, I said, ky,

724
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:01.760
<v Speaker 3>you the sweetest, nicest. I can't when you see her

725
00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:03.480
<v Speaker 3>board though, you don't want to be on the other side,

726
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:05.719
<v Speaker 3>you want her prosecuting you. But she's just a very

727
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:09.360
<v Speaker 3>very nice person, very sweet. We did the interview and

728
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:12.119
<v Speaker 3>I think just an excellent, excellent prosecutor, and I'm happy

729
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:14.559
<v Speaker 3>to be able to show her story in this and

730
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.760
<v Speaker 3>her work in this as well, and I hope people

731
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:19.880
<v Speaker 3>see that and give her the recognition that she deserves

732
00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:21.519
<v Speaker 3>for that trial. She did an excellent job.

733
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:24.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I'm no attorney, but I bet it was

734
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:28.599
<v Speaker 1>a very deliberate choice to have her cross examine Tammy,

735
00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:32.800
<v Speaker 1>because having a woman asking you those questions is gonna

736
00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:37.280
<v Speaker 1>set Tammy on that defensive and she she wasn't able

737
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:39.960
<v Speaker 1>to hold it together, kind of postured and addressing the

738
00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:43.400
<v Speaker 1>jury like she started off with for very long. Just

739
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:45.960
<v Speaker 1>having kind of another woman challenge her.

740
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:50.039
<v Speaker 3>Excellent choice, I agreed, And I bet she was nervous

741
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:52.760
<v Speaker 3>as hell the night before, I mean, oh yeah. And

742
00:40:53.320 --> 00:40:57.320
<v Speaker 3>Tammy was also harassing her, saying things about her online,

743
00:40:57.639 --> 00:40:59.800
<v Speaker 3>saying that there was all these things happening in the

744
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:03.880
<v Speaker 3>office and making her life hell for prosecuting her. I mean,

745
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:05.519
<v Speaker 3>am I on some list? The first thing she says,

746
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:08.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm I on some list? It's people coming after me.

747
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:11.360
<v Speaker 3>I magine being a prosecutor and you're feeling threatened all

748
00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:14.840
<v Speaker 3>the time, and here's your shot to do the cross examination,

749
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:17.280
<v Speaker 3>which was a huge part of that trial, and she

750
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:20.039
<v Speaker 3>nailed it. I think it was just amazing how and

751
00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:23.760
<v Speaker 3>in the way that she combated the alibi. I thought

752
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.320
<v Speaker 3>it was just genius and Tammy Moore going on twenty

753
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:31.119
<v Speaker 3>twenty the night before about her, I mean, who does that?

754
00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:33.679
<v Speaker 3>Who goes on twenty twenty the night before explaining your alibi?

755
00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:36.960
<v Speaker 3>Like you said, doctor Scott, I mean, it's narcissism on

756
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:38.840
<v Speaker 3>another level.

757
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.480
<v Speaker 2>It really is.

758
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:40.199
<v Speaker 3>It is.

759
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:44.440
<v Speaker 2>It's narcissism to the extent that as is, like you

760
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:48.159
<v Speaker 2>pointed out so aptly, how intelligent she is.

761
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:50.119
<v Speaker 3>She's not dumb, though I will yeah.

762
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.119
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no not She's not stupid at all. I

763
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.119
<v Speaker 2>think she's very intelligent and what she has been doing

764
00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:57.719
<v Speaker 2>has been working for her for a long time, clearly.

765
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:01.400
<v Speaker 2>But that's one of the problems when you're working with

766
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:04.639
<v Speaker 2>a malignant narcissist is that they believe their own bullshit

767
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.199
<v Speaker 2>so much that that projects out to everybody around them.

768
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:11.079
<v Speaker 2>Like they can fool most of the people most of

769
00:42:11.079 --> 00:42:15.480
<v Speaker 2>the time, but when you start believing your own bs,

770
00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:19.159
<v Speaker 2>that's the problem. In those scenes where she's the night

771
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:21.639
<v Speaker 2>before and she's got the poster board in her kitchen

772
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:25.039
<v Speaker 2>and she's showing the timeline that she's made up, like

773
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:27.360
<v Speaker 2>it's she's made up. It is complete.

774
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:28.800
<v Speaker 1>You got to write it down when you made it.

775
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:32.960
<v Speaker 3>Up, right, five, I did this? I mean, who remembers

776
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:34.320
<v Speaker 3>what they did? I mean, if I try to tell

777
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:37.119
<v Speaker 3>you yesterday, exactly this minute I did this, I couldn't

778
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:37.639
<v Speaker 3>remember that.

779
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:42.440
<v Speaker 1>Right. Yeah, gosh, I'm curious just about your history, your

780
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:46.360
<v Speaker 1>own personal history true crime. What was the thing that, like,

781
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:48.239
<v Speaker 1>did you have a TV show when you were a

782
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:50.480
<v Speaker 1>kid that was kind of your gateway drug or something

783
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.960
<v Speaker 1>that you really enjoyed that got you interested into the

784
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:57.199
<v Speaker 1>genre in the first place. And then just as a

785
00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:00.280
<v Speaker 1>filmmaker or a director, like anyone that influenced to you

786
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:05.079
<v Speaker 1>in terms of documentary filmmakers or true crime content creators.

787
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Kind of a catch all.

788
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:10.960
<v Speaker 3>Question, but I always know direct the jinx, I thought

789
00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:13.840
<v Speaker 3>was the fact that he was able to solve the crime,

790
00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:19.000
<v Speaker 3>and that was another person. He went to. This individual

791
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:21.039
<v Speaker 3>he had a feeling or it probably knew that he

792
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:23.760
<v Speaker 3>did it and he was able to I just love

793
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:27.800
<v Speaker 3>how he presented it. Genius. That was just the JINX

794
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:30.559
<v Speaker 3>was probably I would suggest anybody to watch that. That

795
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:34.519
<v Speaker 3>was just a genius documentary. It deserved every award that

796
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:38.960
<v Speaker 3>it won. It was excellent journalism, was excellent use of

797
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:43.440
<v Speaker 3>true crime being able to finally put someone behind bars.

798
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:45.440
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if he died before he went to

799
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:48.920
<v Speaker 3>jail or not, but he had to pay for his

800
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:51.559
<v Speaker 3>crimes and it was yeah, see, it was good to see.

801
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:54.159
<v Speaker 3>So I think directly for true crime, and he can't

802
00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:56.000
<v Speaker 3>beat him. I mean, he's just a great journalist. I

803
00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:59.360
<v Speaker 3>mean we all like Dateline and I really one show

804
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:01.480
<v Speaker 3>that really I think influenced me the most, and I

805
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:05.440
<v Speaker 3>like the style was Locked Up Abroad. I don't know

806
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:10.159
<v Speaker 3>if you yeah, yeah, I love that style of storytelling.

807
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:13.079
<v Speaker 3>I think it's amazing. I like how to do the reenactments.

808
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:15.920
<v Speaker 3>I kind of modeled my reenactments after that. I don't

809
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:19.480
<v Speaker 3>know if you notice that, but I like showing the actors.

810
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:22.079
<v Speaker 3>I think the actors can bring more emotion to the

811
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:25.199
<v Speaker 3>story versus this new style everyone shows atmospheric or on

812
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:28.039
<v Speaker 3>the side they're afraid to show. Now, I get it,

813
00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:31.039
<v Speaker 3>though there's arguments for both sides. Some people say, look,

814
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:33.199
<v Speaker 3>the victim, doesn't you know it's hard on the victims

815
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.360
<v Speaker 3>to show the full actor and it's them, And is

816
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:38.280
<v Speaker 3>it better if they look like the actors or don't

817
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:41.199
<v Speaker 3>or the actors look like the real people? We don't know.

818
00:44:41.440 --> 00:44:43.760
<v Speaker 3>But then I've heard it the other way, where when

819
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:47.840
<v Speaker 3>you use a lot of archival footage. Because I spoke

820
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:51.199
<v Speaker 3>to I'm actually Morgan Elvis told me this. She said,

821
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:53.800
<v Speaker 3>there's certain pictures we don't want to show. We want

822
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:55.400
<v Speaker 3>to keep in whatever it's out there. She goes, you

823
00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:57.559
<v Speaker 3>can use cause I had to asked what pictures can

824
00:44:57.559 --> 00:44:59.320
<v Speaker 3>we use of Heather? What pictures can use of you guys?

825
00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:01.360
<v Speaker 3>We don't want to share a lot, And I asked

826
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:02.960
<v Speaker 3>for some more pictures and said, we don't want to

827
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:04.960
<v Speaker 3>use these. We want to keep these for us, these

828
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:06.719
<v Speaker 3>pictures that we have of us and Heather. We want

829
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:09.199
<v Speaker 3>it to be for us. Go use actors, Go do

830
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:12.039
<v Speaker 3>what you want to do. Yeah, so it's interesting. So

831
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:14.119
<v Speaker 3>some victims were going to say that I understood her

832
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:16.599
<v Speaker 3>point after she said that, Yeah, it makes sense. So

833
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:19.159
<v Speaker 3>I think the movie, because there's some movies just have

834
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:21.960
<v Speaker 3>you can use all archival footage. There's so much let's say,

835
00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:24.599
<v Speaker 3>social media stuff they have out there, or they have

836
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:26.760
<v Speaker 3>a lot of just a lot of home videos. I mean,

837
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:28.679
<v Speaker 3>everyone is a camera with their phone now, so there's

838
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:31.599
<v Speaker 3>just tons of footage you can get. So it depends.

839
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:33.639
<v Speaker 3>But I like that locked up a broad style.

840
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:36.280
<v Speaker 1>I really yeah, we love those older ones. I mean

841
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:39.960
<v Speaker 1>even someone in the chat was talking about unsolved mysteries

842
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:41.159
<v Speaker 1>or so.

843
00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:42.480
<v Speaker 3>Back in the day, and.

844
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:46.199
<v Speaker 1>I'll always talk about City Confidential like you know, those

845
00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:48.079
<v Speaker 1>are just like timeless.

846
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:52.159
<v Speaker 3>I think unsolved mysteries are coming back and they are yeah.

847
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:55.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, really well done, very well done.

848
00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:58.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah true, and they solve tons of crimes.

849
00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:01.960
<v Speaker 3>So you can use these a help find missing people.

850
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:06.760
<v Speaker 3>It's not just entertainment, you can it's entertainment raising awareness

851
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:10.039
<v Speaker 3>for a topic and potentially helping solve the crime. So

852
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:14.840
<v Speaker 3>I mean, and now with you can combine filmmaking with

853
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:18.199
<v Speaker 3>social media because you can keep the story going. After

854
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:20.920
<v Speaker 3>someone watches the movie, they can then go online and say, hey,

855
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:23.239
<v Speaker 3>look I have some information or this or that or

856
00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:26.239
<v Speaker 3>I heard this person say that. It can really do

857
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:27.639
<v Speaker 3>a lot from any of these cases.

858
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:32.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely. We can't not mention hard dear friend John Lorden,

859
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:35.800
<v Speaker 1>who you used in this series. How did you get

860
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:38.039
<v Speaker 1>connected with him? And or you know what kind of

861
00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:41.639
<v Speaker 1>drew you to having his voice fill some of the narrative.

862
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:44.400
<v Speaker 1>Because there's so many creators out there to pull from.

863
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:45.320
<v Speaker 1>Why John.

864
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:49.639
<v Speaker 3>He is an IT background and I watch his content online.

865
00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:52.000
<v Speaker 3>I wanted someone who is an expert in social media

866
00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:55.880
<v Speaker 3>and things with computers online stuff, and John's an expert

867
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:57.760
<v Speaker 3>in that. So and he's an expert in true crime,

868
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:01.519
<v Speaker 3>so he'd be perfect. Emailed him and he emailed me

869
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:03.559
<v Speaker 3>right back. He goes, you know, there's the family involved

870
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:05.280
<v Speaker 3>in this. I go yeah, and he goes, okay, cool,

871
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.079
<v Speaker 3>where do you live? He lives in Minnesota. He's from

872
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:11.199
<v Speaker 3>Los Angeles originally. He lives in Minnesota, and I'm actually

873
00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:13.599
<v Speaker 3>from Wisconsin originally, so I was like, oh, I used

874
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:15.280
<v Speaker 3>to It was funny. I was like, I used to

875
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:19.519
<v Speaker 3>play soccer terms. I thought he was from Minnesota first, like,

876
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:21.800
<v Speaker 3>not off from LA. I'm like, oh man, I'm like,

877
00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:25.199
<v Speaker 3>I thought you were fro like the Midwestern me and

878
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:28.199
<v Speaker 3>so yeah, and then I have some family lives in

879
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:30.159
<v Speaker 3>the Twin Cities, so I was able to visit them

880
00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:32.199
<v Speaker 3>and do the interview with him over there. So it

881
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:32.719
<v Speaker 3>worked out.

882
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:36.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well he was not just because we absolutely adore him,

883
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:40.599
<v Speaker 1>but you know, talk about somebody with ethics who has

884
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:45.920
<v Speaker 1>the most respect for building that rapport with families, who

885
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:50.199
<v Speaker 1>really you know, get to trust him he's a perfect person.

886
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:51.480
<v Speaker 1>And then it felt I mean, I don't know if

887
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:54.639
<v Speaker 1>you guys talked about this, but to me, once I

888
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:56.400
<v Speaker 1>learned he was a part of it, and then seeing it,

889
00:47:56.599 --> 00:48:01.480
<v Speaker 1>especially the subsequent episodes on the online bowling and the trolling,

890
00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:05.760
<v Speaker 1>it felt so meta to me because the last documentary

891
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:08.480
<v Speaker 1>he was in the Ciso Hotel one. He really got

892
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:11.239
<v Speaker 1>a lot of crap online from trolls about how that

893
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:13.679
<v Speaker 1>was edited to kind of I don't know, people start

894
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:15.360
<v Speaker 1>making up their own minds. I'll just leave it at that.

895
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:18.320
<v Speaker 1>But he felt that experience on the other end, and

896
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:20.599
<v Speaker 1>I thought, God, what a great project for him to be,

897
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:23.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, full circle involved And did you know about

898
00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:24.000
<v Speaker 1>any of that stuff?

899
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:28.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I saw him. I loved that documentary Vanishing at Hope.

900
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:30.199
<v Speaker 3>Elsie's all great. He did an excellent job in it,

901
00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:33.880
<v Speaker 3>so yeah, he did an excellent job in our documentary

902
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:36.039
<v Speaker 3>as well, and he was actually part of it, So yeah,

903
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:36.760
<v Speaker 3>he's pretty great.

904
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:41.679
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, What is next up for you and True Christ films?

905
00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:45.280
<v Speaker 2>Are there other stories that you're just sort of on

906
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:47.519
<v Speaker 2>the edge of your seat ready to talk about, or

907
00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:49.800
<v Speaker 2>that you're passionate about what's next?

908
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:53.360
<v Speaker 3>Right now? We have a documentary that we're I would

909
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:55.800
<v Speaker 3>say we're in post production. We have most of the interviews.

910
00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:57.679
<v Speaker 3>We're still waiting on one. It's called the Dine and

911
00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:01.840
<v Speaker 3>Dash Dater. It's a yes, do you remember this guy? Okay?

912
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:04.519
<v Speaker 2>So this is this the LA one or the New

913
00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:10.840
<v Speaker 2>York on the lah wa we need to talk offline, okay.

914
00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:14.400
<v Speaker 3>So so basically we have most of the interviews, we're

915
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:17.960
<v Speaker 3>still looking for a few more. I think this story

916
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:24.679
<v Speaker 3>really talks to the safety issues of dating apps, given

917
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:27.239
<v Speaker 3>that dating apps seem to be the number one way

918
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:31.239
<v Speaker 3>people are meeting right now. It's not a murder, it's

919
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:34.639
<v Speaker 3>not a serial killer that was using dating apps. It

920
00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:36.920
<v Speaker 3>was a scam, and it wasn't a scam like the

921
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:39.760
<v Speaker 3>Tinder swindler where he was taking hundreds of thousands of

922
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:43.079
<v Speaker 3>dollars from these women. He was getting a meal, so

923
00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:47.280
<v Speaker 3>it is a little lower stakes in regards to that. However,

924
00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:50.960
<v Speaker 3>it was so bizarre. The story was just so bizarre,

925
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:54.840
<v Speaker 3>and I think it was very attention grabbing because it

926
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.559
<v Speaker 3>really brings up who pays on a first date. It

927
00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:01.440
<v Speaker 3>brings up the argument. I don't want to say it's

928
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:03.480
<v Speaker 3>a dark comedy because it is a crime. There were

929
00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:07.199
<v Speaker 3>victims involved. But I've gotten to know the victims. We

930
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.280
<v Speaker 3>interviewed them. I don't want to say they can laugh

931
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:13.320
<v Speaker 3>about it now, but they were pissed when it happened.

932
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.199
<v Speaker 3>They were not happy. There's a lot of victims that

933
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:19.519
<v Speaker 3>are still out there who would not call this at all,

934
00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:22.159
<v Speaker 3>you know, something to even joke about or laugh about

935
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:24.039
<v Speaker 3>it at all. And I'm not trying to say that

936
00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:26.920
<v Speaker 3>or put that that's what we're doing, but it's lighter.

937
00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:31.159
<v Speaker 3>No one got killed, people got scammed out of a meal,

938
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:35.440
<v Speaker 3>and I think it's a great story to show bring

939
00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:39.559
<v Speaker 3>awareness to the dangers of dating, because there's a lot

940
00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:42.360
<v Speaker 3>worse that can happen. There's serial killers that use dating apps.

941
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:46.519
<v Speaker 3>There's murders, there's sexual assaults. You're meeting absolute strangers on

942
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:51.400
<v Speaker 3>the internet. You're twenty twenty one, twenty two, your old girl,

943
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:53.760
<v Speaker 3>and you really don't understand. I think when you get

944
00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:55.920
<v Speaker 3>older you probably can. You can use a little more precaution.

945
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:57.840
<v Speaker 3>You're going to look up who the person is. You're

946
00:50:57.880 --> 00:50:59.960
<v Speaker 3>not going to believe everything you hear. But when you're younger,

947
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:02.280
<v Speaker 3>I mean you know, you're oh, yeah, everyone's great, everyone's this,

948
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.039
<v Speaker 3>everyone's that. Let me just go meet the stranger. So

949
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:07.159
<v Speaker 3>I think it brings awareness to that. I think dating

950
00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:09.599
<v Speaker 3>apps are fine. I'm not saying, hey, look they're just horrible,

951
00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:13.519
<v Speaker 3>but there needs to be precautions. You have to really

952
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:15.760
<v Speaker 3>find out who you're going out with before you do.

953
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:19.440
<v Speaker 2>I wish you well. I love that you're focusing on that.

954
00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:22.199
<v Speaker 2>I one of the things in my former work with

955
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.519
<v Speaker 2>LAPD's Threat Management Unit, one of the discussions I would

956
00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:29.920
<v Speaker 2>have with my detective friends was that anytime there's a

957
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:35.880
<v Speaker 2>new technology, or there's a new expression of existing technology,

958
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:40.599
<v Speaker 2>the first adopters are going to be the criminogenetic personalities

959
00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:42.559
<v Speaker 2>that can think that they can make a buck off

960
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:44.639
<v Speaker 2>of it. And what you're talking about, like, yeah, the

961
00:51:44.679 --> 00:51:48.079
<v Speaker 2>stakes weren't extremely high. Thankfully no one got hurt in

962
00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:52.440
<v Speaker 2>this particular case, but people are really just not aware that.

963
00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Like now, you drive down a freeway and you get

964
00:51:56.039 --> 00:51:58.679
<v Speaker 2>a text that like, oh, you drove and you just

965
00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:00.239
<v Speaker 2>got to eat. We're in a toll lane. You have

966
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:02.000
<v Speaker 2>to pay this fifty dollars. I think that's a huge

967
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:03.840
<v Speaker 2>scam that's happening here in southern California.

968
00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:05.079
<v Speaker 3>I get it all the time. I get the text

969
00:52:05.159 --> 00:52:05.679
<v Speaker 3>all the time.

970
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and there are so many people that fall for

971
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:09.960
<v Speaker 2>that because if they send out ten thousand, I mean,

972
00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:12.719
<v Speaker 2>this guy was probably swiping right over and over and

973
00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:15.159
<v Speaker 2>over and over and over again. Here's one that's going

974
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:17.840
<v Speaker 2>to go to dinner with me. So yeah, it's I

975
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:21.559
<v Speaker 2>wish that the general public. Hopefully your production will will

976
00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:23.199
<v Speaker 2>educate more people about that.

977
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:25.440
<v Speaker 3>And it's done. I think this story does a great

978
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:27.880
<v Speaker 3>job and it caught a lot of attention just because

979
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:31.559
<v Speaker 3>it was bizarre. What guy goes out for a free meal?

980
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:33.079
<v Speaker 3>You know, it's.

981
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:38.199
<v Speaker 1>Just bizarre to have you so we can dissect that.

982
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:41.079
<v Speaker 3>Really, I was talking to someone else about it. I

983
00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:43.119
<v Speaker 3>mean I want to interview him. We're looking for him.

984
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:45.599
<v Speaker 3>So if you're watching this, you know, please contact this.

985
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:49.000
<v Speaker 3>I think the motive behind it is just everyone. I

986
00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:51.119
<v Speaker 3>asked everyone, you know, why was he doing this? I

987
00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:54.599
<v Speaker 3>think the psychological analysis of this thing is I mean

988
00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:57.679
<v Speaker 3>great learning lesson, you know, I mean, just it really is.

989
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.719
<v Speaker 3>It's why if you got it, it was like it

990
00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:03.519
<v Speaker 3>was a perfect scan because it wasn't enough money where

991
00:53:03.559 --> 00:53:05.840
<v Speaker 3>someone's gonna report it and they're embarrassed about it, you

992
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.840
<v Speaker 3>know what goundred dollars. Let me just go home and

993
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:10.880
<v Speaker 3>just forget this ever happened. So he was able to

994
00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:13.119
<v Speaker 3>do this for years. I mean, he was able to

995
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:16.519
<v Speaker 3>lose a lot, a lot, a lot of women. And

996
00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:17.920
<v Speaker 3>it's one of those things where if you call the

997
00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:19.360
<v Speaker 3>police and tell them what they were going to laugh

998
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:23.679
<v Speaker 3>at you, you know. And there was a tech detective

999
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:25.960
<v Speaker 3>that took it on and took it very serious and

1000
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:29.039
<v Speaker 3>ended it and you know, and found out who he

1001
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:30.119
<v Speaker 3>was and all that stuff.

1002
00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:34.760
<v Speaker 1>So we are looking forward to that for sure. Before

1003
00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:37.239
<v Speaker 1>we let you go, tell us where people can watch

1004
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:40.440
<v Speaker 1>the documentary and how they can follow True Case Films

1005
00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:41.719
<v Speaker 1>anywhere social media.

1006
00:53:41.559 --> 00:53:44.480
<v Speaker 3>Or what have you. Yep, you can follow True Case Films.

1007
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:48.199
<v Speaker 3>That's a handle either on Instagram or Facebook to watch

1008
00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:50.960
<v Speaker 3>vanish the hell they're Elvis Case. It's on Apple TV,

1009
00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:54.920
<v Speaker 3>Amazon Prime Video, and it's also on the YouTube Movies,

1010
00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:56.039
<v Speaker 3>tvod whatever.

1011
00:53:56.519 --> 00:53:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Great.

1012
00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:00.559
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, and I you want to watch it and

1013
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:02.880
<v Speaker 3>let us know how you think of it on social media.

1014
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:03.960
<v Speaker 3>We'd love to hear your feedback.

1015
00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I just put the website for the documentary into

1016
00:54:08.920 --> 00:54:11.559
<v Speaker 1>the chat once again, so you guys have that. You

1017
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:13.800
<v Speaker 1>can go there and it gives you every single option

1018
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:18.039
<v Speaker 1>of where you can watch it. Michael, thank you again

1019
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:22.440
<v Speaker 1>so much for allowing us to watch the premiere of

1020
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:26.159
<v Speaker 1>this really, really important story, and once we learned just

1021
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:28.760
<v Speaker 1>your approach to it, we knew that this was definitely

1022
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:31.039
<v Speaker 1>something we wanted to talk to you about because we

1023
00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:33.360
<v Speaker 1>hope others are listening. But thank you so much for

1024
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:34.159
<v Speaker 1>your time tonight.

1025
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:35.920
<v Speaker 3>Oh, thank you guys very much for having me, and

1026
00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:37.639
<v Speaker 3>thank you for coming to the event. And hope you

1027
00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:39.320
<v Speaker 3>guys come to the next event for the Din and

1028
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:41.480
<v Speaker 3>Dasha when that comes out and we'll have another discussion.

1029
00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:46.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're buying dinner though, all right, you guys, thanks

1030
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:49.920
<v Speaker 1>so much. We will see you next time on La

1031
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Not So Confidential. Take care, guys, have a good night.

1032
00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:55.400
<v Speaker 2>Good night, Hie.

1033
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:16.199
<v Speaker 1>We sincerely thank you for spending some time with us today.

1034
00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:19.519
<v Speaker 1>La Not So Confidential is part of Alienist Entertainment and

1035
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:23.639
<v Speaker 1>the crawl Space Media Network. Each episode is hosted, produced,

1036
00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:27.400
<v Speaker 1>and written by Doctor Scott and Doctor Shiloh. Our post production,

1037
00:55:27.559 --> 00:55:30.800
<v Speaker 1>editing and sweetening magic is handled by the multi talented

1038
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:33.159
<v Speaker 1>Jason Usrie of ear Cult Productions.

1039
00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Our theme music entitled Cool About, Our theme music entitled

1040
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Cool Vibes, Film Noir is composed and performed by the

1041
00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:44.760
<v Speaker 2>talented Kevin McLoud. He graciously allows us to use his

1042
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:48.639
<v Speaker 2>music via a Creative Commons attribution license. Please check out

1043
00:55:48.679 --> 00:55:50.800
<v Speaker 2>all of Kevin's amazing work on YouTube.

1044
00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:53.280
<v Speaker 1>All of the resources for each episode can be found

1045
00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:58.880
<v Speaker 1>on our website at www dot la dashnt Dashso dash

1046
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<v Speaker 1>confidential dot com. You can find us on blue Sky

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00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:05.639
<v Speaker 1>and Instagram at La not So Podcast, on TikTok, Facebook,

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00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:09.320
<v Speaker 1>and YouTube. We are at La not So Confidential. Media

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<v Speaker 1>inquiries and bookings are scheduled at Alienist Entertainment at gmail

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<v Speaker 1>dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>Once a month, we go live on YouTube on a

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<v Speaker 2>Saturday afternoon, so stay tuned to our social media announcements

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00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:23.760
<v Speaker 2>to join our interactive broadcast entitled Behind the Couch, where

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<v Speaker 2>we interview guests on a number of psych criminal, justice

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00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:27.760
<v Speaker 2>and true crime topics.

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<v Speaker 1>And lastly, we'd be honored if you join our Patreon

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<v Speaker 1>at Patreon dot com slash La not So Podcast. With

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00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:39.119
<v Speaker 1>a subscription, you get an ad free listening experience, additional content,

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00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:42.519
<v Speaker 1>host interaction, and you'll be the first to know about

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<v Speaker 1>upcoming live events, social gatherings, and super cool merch.

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<v Speaker 2>So thanks for listening and join us next time on

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<v Speaker 2>La not so confidential,