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<v Speaker 1>Hey, this is Chris with Hacking Leadership on today's discussion

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<v Speaker 1>and employee engagement. I want to talk about a listener

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<v Speaker 1>question that we received that I got on LinkedIn. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>someone reached out to ask me what I would do

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<v Speaker 1>in a situation where they were trying to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>advance their career to move up to, you know, take

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<v Speaker 1>the next steps forward, and their direct boss, their direct

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<v Speaker 1>leader was just completely disengaged. And it wasn't from a

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<v Speaker 1>standpoint of, you know, trying to hinder their career or

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<v Speaker 1>trying to you know, hurt anything. It was just that

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<v Speaker 1>person had basically checked out. That person was just kind

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<v Speaker 1>of phoning in their role. Nice person, easy to get

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<v Speaker 1>along with, just not not not easy to depend on

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<v Speaker 1>for career development or personal growth or opening doors, you

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<v Speaker 1>know that kind of thing. What do you do in

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<v Speaker 1>that situation? And I thought it was a great question

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, there's there's that's different than if a

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<v Speaker 1>person is intentionally trying to subvert you or trying to

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<v Speaker 1>you know, trying to hurt your career, and if you

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<v Speaker 1>address that relationship from that standpoint, but it doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 1>that it's not important. It doesn't mean that it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>impact a lot of people. And I think that you

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<v Speaker 1>know when you have when you have people in roles

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<v Speaker 1>for a long time, If a person who's had kind

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<v Speaker 1>of lost the desire to move up themselves and has

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<v Speaker 1>been in that same role for you know, ten, fifteen,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes twenty years or more, that can be a real

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<v Speaker 1>good indicator that that might be what is happening, is

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<v Speaker 1>that they're not necessarily that they've lost the will or

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<v Speaker 1>the ability or the desire to help other people move up.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so much to unpack here so little time. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>because I think that they're they're not typically like it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's not a one for one as far as like

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<v Speaker 2>the amount of the amount of time that somebody is

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<v Speaker 2>in a role and the same role over time, and

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<v Speaker 2>like their cap their ability to be engaged with like

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<v Speaker 2>the career progression of their people. Like, it's not as

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<v Speaker 2>simple as that, But I will tell you that it

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<v Speaker 2>leans very heavily in that direction, is it. If if

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<v Speaker 2>you have people that are in the same role for

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<v Speaker 2>a really, really, really long time, It's it's rare that

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<v Speaker 2>they just don't want to do the next thing. It's

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<v Speaker 2>more locked into either they really really really enjoy that

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<v Speaker 2>exact thing. It works for them, it's at the level

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<v Speaker 2>of their capability. But if you're in that space and

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<v Speaker 2>you're not trying to advance yourself, if you're not constantly

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<v Speaker 2>looking to like develop yourself and and take learning and

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<v Speaker 2>take feedback to whatever you can get to even prepare

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<v Speaker 2>yourself for the next role, even if you don't you know,

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily want to go down that path.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're not.

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<v Speaker 2>Doing that, it's really hard to then inspire and motivate

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<v Speaker 2>others to want to do that for themselves, which is

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<v Speaker 2>I think why it does lean heavily in that direction.

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<v Speaker 2>Typically you have someone who's in a role, and again

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<v Speaker 2>it's industry by industry, but let's say that they're in

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<v Speaker 2>a typical role for you know, two to three to

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<v Speaker 2>five years, and that's enough time to really be able

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<v Speaker 2>to be not only really effective and efficient at the job,

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<v Speaker 2>but have success over time and have the opportunity to

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<v Speaker 2>train and develop some of your people. Like that time

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<v Speaker 2>frame makes a lot of sense to me in a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of spaces now, especially when you're leading people, like

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<v Speaker 2>I think in the individual contributor world. If you're a

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<v Speaker 2>if you're an engineer, if you're a doctor, if you're

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<v Speaker 2>if you're in spaces where you can continue to level

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<v Speaker 2>up and maybe you get into project management, but eventually

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<v Speaker 2>you get into people leadership. Like that, to me is

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<v Speaker 2>where the constant movement is most helpful in helping to

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<v Speaker 2>move others along as well, because number one, it opens

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<v Speaker 2>up a spot for somebody to kind of promote into,

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<v Speaker 2>and number two, it shows that that leader is continuing

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<v Speaker 2>to grow for their own for the for theirselves and

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<v Speaker 2>in their own professional career, and that then allows them

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<v Speaker 2>to be so much more engaged in bringing up their

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<v Speaker 2>backfill and making sure that the next person or the

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<v Speaker 2>next people on their team are ready for what's next.

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<v Speaker 2>If they're stacked it, it's a lot harder to make

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<v Speaker 2>a movement when you yourself are not moving.

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<v Speaker 1>I completely agree with that, you know, I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>on a little side note here, if you are a

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<v Speaker 1>leader of leaders, I'm not saying that that there's a

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<v Speaker 1>one to one you know ratio or you know, if

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<v Speaker 1>this then that case here, But if you are a

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<v Speaker 1>leader of leaders and you have a particular leader who

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<v Speaker 1>has not promoted anybody, has not gotten anybody promoted up

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<v Speaker 1>from with underneath them, or gotten you know, people to

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<v Speaker 1>move up from underneath them within you know, six months

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<v Speaker 1>or a year. It would be something to dig into, right,

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<v Speaker 1>It'd be something to look in do to figure out

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<v Speaker 1>why why is that the case? Because you want to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure that if if the scenario we're talking about

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<v Speaker 1>here is what's going on, then you, as a leader

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<v Speaker 1>of leaders might have a responsibility to step in and

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<v Speaker 1>help somebody else when you know someone when when your

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<v Speaker 1>direct report isn't doing it, isn't doing their job responsibilities correctly,

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<v Speaker 1>and you can address that and and make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>they have the support that they need, because oftentimes a

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<v Speaker 1>disengaged leader is Sometimes it's the scenario I said, they're

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<v Speaker 1>just kind of phoning it in because they're just burnt

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<v Speaker 1>out and they're tired and they've been doing the same

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<v Speaker 1>thing for twenty years. Other times there's another cause of it.

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<v Speaker 1>And if there's another cause of it, then it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean that that person is unsalvagable. It just means that

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<v Speaker 1>you still need to help them get through whatever it

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<v Speaker 1>is and move forward. But I want to go through

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of things that you can do as an

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<v Speaker 1>employee to advance your career to make sure that a

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<v Speaker 1>disengaged boss is not hurting you as much as they

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<v Speaker 1>as they could. But first, let's give it up toward

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<v Speaker 1>tom more sponsors. All right, if you're trying to advance

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<v Speaker 1>your career in spite of the fact that your boss

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<v Speaker 1>might be disengaged, your direct leader might be disengaged, the

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<v Speaker 1>very first thing that you want to do is be

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<v Speaker 1>very clear on the feedback and intentions that you're asking for.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if you want to move up, if you

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<v Speaker 1>want to go to the next role or the next step,

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<v Speaker 1>or get promoted or whatever happen having this door opened

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<v Speaker 1>for you, be very very clear, both verbally with your

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<v Speaker 1>boss and with a follow up email, that this is

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<v Speaker 1>what you want to do, and you're asking for feedback

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<v Speaker 1>on how to get there. And if you don't get

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<v Speaker 1>a response, then send a followup email again and I

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<v Speaker 1>follow up conversation again. Make sure that you're creating a

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<v Speaker 1>paper trail that is respectful, like this isn't a why

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<v Speaker 1>are you ghosting me? This is a Hey, I'm really

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<v Speaker 1>interested in doing this. How do I make this happen?

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<v Speaker 1>What advice can you give me? What feedback can you

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<v Speaker 1>give me? What should I be doing differently? Always approach

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<v Speaker 1>it from the standpoint of assuming positive intent from them,

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<v Speaker 1>while also creating that digital paper trail that said that

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<v Speaker 1>you did your due diligence in asking for feedback. So

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<v Speaker 1>if it ever comes to a point where you have

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<v Speaker 1>to get somebody else involved, then you have that history

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<v Speaker 1>to say you made your best efforts, you made the

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<v Speaker 1>attempts you didn't just you know, want and done it,

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<v Speaker 1>and then you know, go to that person's boss. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the first thing. The second thing is you want to

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<v Speaker 1>seek out of mentor find somebody in a role that

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<v Speaker 1>might be a hear of your boss or somebody else

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<v Speaker 1>and ask them to mentor you, not in the context

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<v Speaker 1>of hey, my boss is disengaged, just in the context of, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>I want some differing perspectives. You know, I work with

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<v Speaker 1>this person, this person's my boss. I'm getting feedback from them.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd love to get some feedback from you too, because

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<v Speaker 1>there are people of all over the all over this

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<v Speaker 1>organization that have different perspectives, and I think it's valuable

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<v Speaker 1>for me to get the perspective of other people too,

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<v Speaker 1>not just my boss. So there are ways to do

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<v Speaker 1>this and to create relationships that don't that don't open

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<v Speaker 1>up the door to you being accused of throwing somebody

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<v Speaker 1>under the bus, but also don't allow you to have

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<v Speaker 1>your wagon hitch to a single horse, And whether or

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<v Speaker 1>not that horse makes it is whether or not your

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<v Speaker 1>career makes it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's I think two things. And the

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<v Speaker 2>first thing I think about is like, you've got to

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<v Speaker 2>be doing great work in the current role that you have,

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<v Speaker 2>Like there is a kind of shure, like because the

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<v Speaker 2>first of all was like, well, I give people advice

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<v Speaker 2>all the times, say hey, go talk to the decision makers,

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<v Speaker 2>Go talk to the people that are going to be

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<v Speaker 2>a part of the process of you getting the next job,

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<v Speaker 2>and do exactly what you're saying, which is like, go

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<v Speaker 2>ask them questions. But if the answer is like you

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<v Speaker 2>need to make sure that you have, you know, time

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<v Speaker 2>to show the consistent success in your current role, that's

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<v Speaker 2>also an answer that you have to be prepared for

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<v Speaker 2>and ready for and you should you should get and

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<v Speaker 2>like you should want to be able to have that

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<v Speaker 2>because to walk into the next role being able to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about the success stories of your current role is

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<v Speaker 2>really really critical. But I think that the second piece

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<v Speaker 2>of that is, like I get these specific details if

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<v Speaker 2>you are doing well in your current role, if you're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing success over time, and again I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>get specifics into how much time that is exactly, but

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<v Speaker 2>just over time. It's not like you know, you just

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<v Speaker 2>got this responsibility and then you've done one project or

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<v Speaker 2>you've had one month or two months of doing good work,

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<v Speaker 2>Like you want to see some success over time here.

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<v Speaker 2>But if you have done that and then you're asking

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<v Speaker 2>those questions and have that person be very specific, don't

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<v Speaker 2>just settle for like, hey, keep doing what you're doing,

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<v Speaker 2>You did great with that, keep that up, like you

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<v Speaker 2>need to say and ask questions like, well, hey, if

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to be in this role tomorrow, like

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<v Speaker 2>what would you expect of me today? Like what exactly

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<v Speaker 2>are you looking for? If I think about three months

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<v Speaker 2>from now that I would want to do the next job,

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<v Speaker 2>what would you have seen me accomplish in this one

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<v Speaker 2>and how would we measure that and what would that be?

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<v Speaker 2>Like get into the really really specifics because that's going

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<v Speaker 2>to help you build the best possible plan. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you ask multiple people, be prepared to get different answers.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's a part of figuring out that if you

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<v Speaker 2>have multiple people in a decision making process, they're all

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<v Speaker 2>going to have some elements of their own perspectives or

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<v Speaker 2>thoughts on what you should do and how you should.

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<v Speaker 1>Get there right, and it's important for you to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to speak to it from a standpoint of making

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<v Speaker 1>all of them happy. And it is what it is

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<v Speaker 1>that this is the bias they might bring. And when

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<v Speaker 1>I say bias, I don't mean it in a negative way.

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<v Speaker 1>I just mean a factual human way. We all bring

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<v Speaker 1>our own biases to the table when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>what we put value on in promoting and hiring decisions.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you if there are multiple people involved, then

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<v Speaker 1>you need to be able to see it from their perspective.

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<v Speaker 1>The other thing I want to bring up too, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think this is equally important, is if you're This

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<v Speaker 1>isn't just from the standpoint of of getting feedback or

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<v Speaker 1>engagement from a boss who is disengaged when you want

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<v Speaker 1>to move up, but advancing your career could also be

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<v Speaker 1>in fixing the problems that are happening in your in

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<v Speaker 1>your own you know way of doing things. And so

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<v Speaker 1>this isn't just you know, go to your go to

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<v Speaker 1>people once you have all your ducks in a row.

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<v Speaker 1>This is make sure you're high performing in your role

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<v Speaker 1>before you ask for these things. I agree with that.

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<v Speaker 1>But if you're not high performing in your role and

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<v Speaker 1>you want to get better at it, this applies also.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you if you need to get this the

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<v Speaker 1>feedback from a disengaged boss who won't tell you how

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<v Speaker 1>to get better at your current role, and you think

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<v Speaker 1>that you're you're inability to perform at a high level

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<v Speaker 1>in your current role is holding you back from getting promoted.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a very real thing too, And so the advice

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<v Speaker 1>is still the same advice. Absolutely, ask your boss for feedback,

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<v Speaker 1>and if they're disengaged, I'm not giving it to you,

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<v Speaker 1>ask a mentor or somebody else for feedback. But you

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<v Speaker 1>don't necessarily have to approach it from the standpoint of

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<v Speaker 1>I want to get promoted now. You can. You can

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<v Speaker 1>start the conversation with I want to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>this is on the radar for six months or a

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<v Speaker 1>year from now, or the next time one of these

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<v Speaker 1>roles becomes open. And I know I'm not prepared for

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<v Speaker 1>it now, but I want to be how do I

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<v Speaker 1>get there? And as long as that conversation is framed

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<v Speaker 1>in that way, you're gonna get the You'll get the

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<v Speaker 1>right response from that person, you know, just don't go

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<v Speaker 1>to that person giving them the impression from you that

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<v Speaker 1>you want the role now or that you think you're

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<v Speaker 1>ready for it now. If you're not, you're not ready

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<v Speaker 1>for it. You're not ready for it. But that doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean you shouldn't be having the conversation, and it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean that you can't have these conversations with other people.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you all for joining us in this discussion and employee engagement.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll see you next Thursday for the next one. You

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<v Speaker 1>have a great day.