WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.680 If he if you could only read it in your 2 00:00:02.759 --> 00:00:07.639 progressive liberal voice, Olsen. 3 00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:10.160 Is so smart. 4 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:14.759 Everybody listen to Conservative Crossroads with Henry Olsen. 5 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:25.960 My Ray, Why why think alone when you can drink 6 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:26.679 it all in with. 7 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:31.440 Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour. Join your bartenders Steve Hayward, 8 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:40.280 John You, and the international woman of Mystery Lucretia. 9 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:42.280 Where they slapped it up it David, ain't you easy 10 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:43.920 on the should have. 11 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.079 Got a giving Well? 12 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:51.679 Welcome everybody to this edition of the Three Whiskey Happy Hour. 13 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:53.560 It's going to be a little bit different because we 14 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:58.759 were not able to schedule live for our many followers 15 00:00:58.799 --> 00:00:59.479 on substack. 16 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:01.359 We're going to have to record. 17 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.560 This and post it up for you later on this week. 18 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:08.480 So we are going to leave a side headlines for 19 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:12.200 the moment and try to get into some deeper subjects 20 00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:14.560 that our listeners are often asking about. 21 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:16.560 So first of all, I'd like to welcome. 22 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:21.640 My co hosts Steve Hayward, Cheers and John You. 23 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.359 Hey, John, do you have any liquor yet? Now? 24 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:28.239 I'm still moving, so I just have this Taco Deli 25 00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:34.239 hibiscus tea. 26 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:37.159 So John, when we come to visit you next week, 27 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:39.640 we're gonna We're gonna take you on a field trip 28 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:41.560 to that fancy liquor store. 29 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:44.560 No, no, we want to go to the one that's 30 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:45.640 the size of a Walmart. 31 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.560 That's what I mean, the fancy Ohia, the large flicker store. 32 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:55.040 That'll be fun. And of course yes you do. I 33 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:55.799 don't know about this. 34 00:01:55.959 --> 00:01:59.200 You being there in that kind of lonely looking place 35 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:03.719 with no out alcohol, having to deal with Texans all 36 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:04.319 day long? 37 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:05.560 How is that going? 38 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.680 Yeah, I would definitely need more alcohol in order to 39 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:14.319 deal with Texans. They're riding so high right now. They 40 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:17.719 have a sense of they have too much confidence and 41 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:20.680 sense of superiority. But that's because their state seeds we 42 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:22.680 covered so much better than everybody else's. 43 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:23.960 Yeah, this is true. 44 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:28.039 So and I'm Lucretia, the international woman of not so 45 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:31.199 very much Mystery anymore. In fact, in fact, you could 46 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:33.400 see that I don't even have the right name on 47 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.199 my screen if those of you are watching the video 48 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:38.360 rather than listening to the audio. But we've got a 49 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:41.080 really exciting show for you. We're all very excited about 50 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:45.520 the things we're going to discuss because they are reaching 51 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:49.319 deep into our areas of expertise and the first one 52 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.120 is so far out of out of my area of 53 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:56.000 expertise that I'm going to play the dumb blonde and 54 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:59.360 let Steve and John explain the entire thing to me, 55 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:03.439 because they're going to do something about the constitutional the 56 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:08.919 takings clause and property rights and zoning. 57 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:10.800 Okay, take it away, guys. 58 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:12.919 John, you want to go first or me? What do 59 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:13.439 you want to do? 60 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:16.800 I could just briefly describe it. This is the one 61 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:21.800 hundredth anniversary of a case called Euclid versus Ambler Realty, 62 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:27.879 which upheld the constitutionality of zoning. And I've always thought 63 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:32.840 this decision was wrong. I've never looked at it that closely, 64 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:36.719 except me and Steve were invited to participate in a 65 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:42.199 conference that's going to take place this weekend about the 66 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:48.159 hundredth anniversary. And so it's a puzzle because the author 67 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:51.560 of the opinion at the Supreme Court upholding zoning was 68 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:57.280 Justice Sutherland, who otherwise was quite a believer in natural rights. 69 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:01.319 It's always seemed to me zoning violens natural right of property. 70 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.879 That the government telling you that you can only use 71 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:09.719 your property for some small set of uses is a ticking. 72 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:12.400 It's unconstitutional. It's an invasion of your right as a 73 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:16.639 property or do whatever the hell you want on your property. Steve, however, 74 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:20.720 has a much more forgiving attitude towards the progressives and 75 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:23.720 the strong hand of government to tell us what we 76 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:25.120 can do with our natural rights. 77 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:30.279 Steve, as usual, you're trying to promoke us with complete 78 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:32.439 disinformation and misinformation. 79 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:36.160 Well look, yeah, so what listeners should know is Euclid 80 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:39.759 was a suburb of Cleveland, and Cleveland was growing, but. 81 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:44.319 It was he was a gym, a mathematician. 82 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:48.360 Who's well, see, that's that's part of the mystery about 83 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:50.680 this is the Euclid case held it up and people think, 84 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:53.720 you know, Euclidian zoning sounds like something to do with 85 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:57.759 straight lines and corners and triangles, right, and and that's 86 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:00.319 an odd coincidence of the name of this case, right, 87 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:02.560 It's it's totally coincidental with the name of the place. 88 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:06.319 If it had been you know, Tuscaloosa versus Ambler Realty, 89 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:09.720 we wouldn't think of it the same way because sor Ry, Yeah, 90 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.839 Lincoln was a Euclidean zoning sounds right to me, nothing 91 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:13.160 to do. 92 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:15.000 With it, right, It's a Euclid. 93 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.319 Was this suburb, and and it was you know, it 94 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:18.600 was on a sort of a make It. 95 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:20.240 Would make a lot more sense if it was called 96 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.160 City of Berkeley versus amble. 97 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:24.000 That's right. 98 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:26.839 Or there are actually a bunch of famous tickings clauses 99 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:31.120 like the involved Berkeley Tibberer all these towns in California 100 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.839 which are left wing hotbeds, which have no problem. Uh 101 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:37.680 you know, it's Stevens support of oppressing all of us 102 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:38.759 in our use of property. 103 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:42.360 Although brief aside on all that I have, I still 104 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:44.720 haven't found the right place to take the picture of 105 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:47.160 those signs. John When you drive into Berkeley and there's 106 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:49.319 a big sign to the city limit that says Berkeley 107 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:51.879 is a nuclear freeze zone, and I always want to 108 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:53.639 sort of crouch down and get a picture of. 109 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:56.839 That sign with the Lawrence Livermore Lab on the top 110 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:59.079 of the yell above the campus. Right. 111 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:01.240 Oh yeah, there's one of the sizes right next to 112 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:03.519 the nuclear Yeah, right next to nuclear weapons lab. 113 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.680 Yeah right. And of course it's federal property, so it 114 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:08.040 can't apply. There was. 115 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:10.000 By the way, I think I may have mentioned this once, 116 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:13.560 there's a loophole in that famous town ordnance from forty 117 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:20.160 years ago said no development, uh, deployment, you know, basing whatever, 118 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:23.680 of nuclear anything. And I always left out they left 119 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:26.879 out testing. They didn't say we couldn't test nuclear weapons. 120 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.480 And Berkeley and I thought when a neutron bomb came 121 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:31.319 along that killed all the people and left the buildings, 122 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:33.319 I thought, well, okay, there's a loophole here we can use. 123 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:35.120 Okay, so so that the thing. 124 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.720 The buildings aren't that great, Steve, I've seen them. 125 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:41.720 No, wait a minute, that's that's not quite right. 126 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.439 There are in the oldest part of the campus, not 127 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:46.839 the part Juco the north, the north side. 128 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:49.720 You have some now where John is that nowhere John is. 129 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:51.399 That's far end of the campus. 130 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:53.639 But on the north side of campus, which is a 131 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:57.600 very long beauty have some wonderful Julia Morgan design buildings. 132 00:06:57.920 --> 00:06:59.279 Now it's kind of a hodgepodge. 133 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:02.600 I mean, I have to the University of Colorado at 134 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.639 Boulder did the Florence Italy thing, which is the buildings 135 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:06.639 are a uniform designed. 136 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:07.560 I think that's very pretty. 137 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:12.199 It's three times the footprint of the Berkeley campus. Never mind, 138 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.000 I'll leave that from underside. So but Euclid was on 139 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:16.959 one of those arterial roads out of Cleveland. 140 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:19.240 This was where you had national highways in interstates. 141 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:21.959 Clear that development was going to head out that way, 142 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:24.519 and as clear the main road was going to be commercial. 143 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:27.639 And the city came in and said, we don't want commercial, 144 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:29.720 we want it residential. We don't want commerce here, we 145 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:32.639 don't want industry here. And Amberor Realty had a whole 146 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.199 big plot of property they intended to develop for a 147 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:40.600 commercial and maybe industrial purposes. And their estimate was that 148 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:43.279 their the value of their land would go down by 149 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:46.120 seventy five percent I think by this down zoning. 150 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:47.680 And so that's why they sued. 151 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:53.639 Now Sutherland and we're probably gonna hear from Hadley about 152 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.480 this because he listens to us, but also love Yeah 153 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.720 High Hadley High Garrett the he was wrote the majority opinion. 154 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.639 Although there's an interesting backstory to this. 155 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:10.040 That said, well, really, zoning represents the sort of codification 156 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:13.279 of the common law principle of nuisance, you know, use 157 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:15.759 your and he actually quoted the old Latin phrase use 158 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:17.800 your property, so was not to injure that of another. 159 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:20.839 You don't think that's that's his actual reasoning, John. 160 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:21.160 No, I don't. 161 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:24.800 I don't think it's incorrect I think it's oh, yes, okay, 162 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:27.360 I agree with you there. But the point is there 163 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.720 are people, including some smart libertarians like the rate late 164 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:33.720 Robert Nelson, who was a pal of mine, who said. 165 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:35.799 Well, if done right, and there's. 166 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.120 Where you put the asterisk and say the if part 167 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:42.840 is crucial and where we fail, zoning done right would 168 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:46.000 lead to nets social welfare benefit, as our pal Richard 169 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.840 Epstein likes to say, who also hates this decision because 170 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:53.320 you know, it would resolve land used conflicts and elevate 171 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.440 everybody's property rights collectively, and it would get rid of 172 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:59.480 clogging the courts with endless nuisance suits. That would just 173 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:02.240 be a man. That's where the old common law method 174 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:05.919 probably wouldn't work. Maybe there's some plausibility to that in 175 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:06.960 the real world. 176 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:07.679 That has not happened. 177 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.159 And even Hadley I have to say that because I 178 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:12.440 went back and looked and his defense of Sutherland in 179 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.759 his book about the Great Book about Sutherland said probably 180 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:18.320 more mischief has been conducted under zoning laws and more 181 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:21.559 corruption ever since then than any other kind of regulation. 182 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:22.799 So I think even he. 183 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:25.679 Knows that there's defects with the way zoning has worked 184 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:26.600 in practice. 185 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.279 Okay, so let me be the dumb blonde here knows 186 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:32.320 nothing about this and ask you guys, then I actually 187 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:38.159 do believe that allowing people to do whatever they want 188 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:39.519 with their property can. 189 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:40.480 Lead to nuisances. 190 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:43.600 And I would argue that if you have ever been 191 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.039 on the border, live on the border as I do, 192 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.559 and you cross or you've probably done the same thing 193 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:53.519 in San Diego into Tijuana, you cross the border, and 194 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:56.200 the difference is night and day. Now, some of that, 195 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.720 of course, is are things like we have mortgages, you know, 196 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:06.399 whereas in Mexico they tend to build houses, excuse me, 197 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:09.480 build houses and whatnot as they can afford to. So 198 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:14.279 it's a hodgepodge number one. Now they don't have inspectors 199 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:18.759 and things like that. But zoning laws will prevent you know, 200 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:24.039 things like a porn shop next to an elementary school. 201 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:26.799 So how would you do that without zoning? 202 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:30.480 Yes, okay, So this is the coast theorem takes care 203 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:32.799 of all this. That's what I don't understand. 204 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.320 I don't know this. This is a genuine question from 205 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:36.240 don't John. 206 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:38.879 Here, Go ahead, John, but you're no, no, go ahead, Steve. 207 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:40.519 I want to hear what you have to say first. 208 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:42.799 Well, so, I mean two things to be said about that. 209 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:45.519 Really, what you're pointing at is not the lack of zoning, 210 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:49.919 but the lack of prosperity. What you're really observing is poverty. Now, 211 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:51.960 there is some chaos at the margins of America. You 212 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:53.679 mentioned sort of things you see out in the desert 213 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:59.600 in Arizona. But ponder two things. One, it sounds like 214 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:02.720 a small but it's not. How did all the famous 215 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:03.879 medieval towns. 216 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.639 In Europe develop? And some of the downtowns on Old America? 217 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:10.559 I think of, Oh, John, you'll appreciate Doylestown, Pennsylvania. You've 218 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:15.320 been at Doylestown place, right, and that place was built 219 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:16.120 without zoning? 220 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:18.720 And why did it happen the way it did? Hold 221 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:19.240 that question. 222 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:21.399 But the point is is all the places that people 223 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.600 want to go to visit as tourists or in America, 224 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:27.120 just like a quaint downtown, were places that developed without 225 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:30.080 any zoning in the nineteenth century. By the way, if 226 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:34.000 you try to build Doylestown today, look it up listeners 227 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:37.720 if you want, You could not build it under modern 228 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:38.679 zoning codes. 229 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:40.279 How dumb is that? 230 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.799 And then the second point is much more significant, and 231 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:46.080 it's one word, and that word is Houston. Houston is 232 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:49.720 the last major city without a big zoning plan. And 233 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:51.840 I used to talk John. I can't believe I never 234 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:55.200 talked about this, John, I knew Bernie Segant I talked before. 235 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:57.399 Well we haven't, but I've never mentioned that. I knew 236 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.600 Bernie Segan pretty well thirty some years ago, right, I mean, 237 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:03.399 he's long passed away, but he was the person who 238 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:06.440 wrote the really detailed books about Houston. And his first 239 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:09.320 question was, how come Houston doesn't look much different from 240 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:10.360 the other major city. 241 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:12.200 And I've been to Houston. 242 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:14.080 A lot because I was fascinated with this more than 243 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:16.679 thirty years ago. And I would drive around. You'd see 244 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.759 some odd things. You'd see some things you wouldn't see 245 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:22.200 next to each other in other cities. But they weren't like, 246 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:24.879 you know, the pig rendering plant next. 247 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:28.120 To a school. You never saw the absurd parade of horribles. 248 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:30.759 The defenders of zoning put out what they do in 249 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:34.399 Houston is they allow neighborhoods at any scale to have 250 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:38.440 their own local neighborhood governance, which means, you know, covenants 251 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:41.879 and things like that, restrictive covenants. But they don't have 252 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.679 a zoning board, they don't have the grand comprehensive plans. 253 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:48.080 And guess what I think of all the major cities. 254 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:52.519 Houston is the most affordable housing prices for everybody. It 255 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:55.120 is the easiest place to start a business in the 256 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:57.559 country by all the measures of how long it takes 257 00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:58.600 to get permits. 258 00:12:58.240 --> 00:12:58.639 And all that. 259 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:02.759 And it's where especially minorities love to go right, and 260 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:06.360 Houston is thriving by the way. You know, progressives run Houston. 261 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:10.200 They don't mess with this. They kind of figure out, 262 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:12.480 we can mess with a lot of crazy stuff, don't 263 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:15.279 mess with this. And anyway, I used to talk to 264 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:17.600 Bernie not about the takings aspects, as he wrote a 265 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:20.480 lot about that, but we talked a lot about Houston 266 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:22.960 and saying, I don't why people don't look at Houston 267 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:25.919 compared to Dallas and everyplace else that zone. That makes 268 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.000 clear that the dead weight losses of zoning, and even 269 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.639 a lot of progressives agree with this now are massive. 270 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:36.519 End of random John, Yeah, so I thought about it. 271 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:39.759 One is the coast theorem should take care of this problem. 272 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.120 So the coast theorem is one of the most influential 273 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:48.000 principles in law and The idea is that as long 274 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:54.159 as you have strong, clear legal entitlements, people will negotiate 275 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.279 around those entitlements for the most efficient result. And Coasts, 276 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:01.240 who won the Nobel Prize in Economics, used between property 277 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:02.360 owners as the example. 278 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:05.360 He said, you know, if you have meant like the 279 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:06.600 ocean coast. 280 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:08.080 No nost. 281 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:14.720 So the idea. So the idea is, you know, like 282 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.879 if you're His basic point is, Okay, suppose you have 283 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:22.799 the factory upriver and you pollute, right, you could have 284 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.279 the right to pollute. Or suppose you're the downstream property 285 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.679 owners and you have the right to stop the pollution. 286 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:32.840 He said, it doesn't really matter who has that right, 287 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.679 because whoever wants the thing more will pay the other 288 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:40.559 side to let them do it. Right, So, if it's 289 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:43.480 really worth more to have the pollution and it's better 290 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.639 than that polluter will pay the other people to let 291 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:49.519 them pollute. But if it's actually worth more to the 292 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:52.399 downstream proper owners not to have pollution because of their 293 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.759 property values, they'll pay the guy upstream not to pollute. 294 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.399 And so his point, which you need to have as 295 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.840 clear property rights, it does doesn't matter who gets to 296 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:05.279 develop or not. They will transact around the property right, 297 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.840 and the efficient result will occur either way. 298 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.679 So the most efficient result about my example would be 299 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:15.159 that the porn shop owner who wants to also open 300 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.440 a brothel right next to the school, We'll just pay 301 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:20.840 off the school and they can have a brothel and 302 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.919 have better quality prostitutes I guess, and better quality school. 303 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:27.159 Films, or the way the government could pay them not 304 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.080 to build next to the school if they really thought 305 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:30.919 it was worth it, and instead of moving. 306 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.519 So, you know, John, this is this is a really 307 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:38.759 wonderful moment that we should savor. It's because I actually think, 308 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.120 let me start this again. I actually met Ronald Coase 309 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:43.840 a few times. I mean, he was like ninety at 310 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:44.480 the time, but he. 311 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:45.759 Was just a wonderful short guy. 312 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:49.080 He was really delightful, and he actually kind of admitted 313 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.240 once that he wrote that famous article for listeners who 314 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.559 don't know what, referring to his article is called the 315 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:59.639 Problem with Social Costs When nineteen sixty I think, are sixty. 316 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:01.559 One the journal from the thirties? 317 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:04.080 No, no, no, no, it's not that far back. No, it's 318 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:06.440 it's the late fifties. But the reason I know that 319 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.759 is because Milton Friedman wrote about this. He went to 320 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:13.639 a little seminar where Coast presented a draft of the article, 321 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.279 and Milton Friedman said, I went in completely skeptical, and 322 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.399 by the end I was utterly convinced he was right. 323 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.879 The thing is the problem with social cost. I'm pretty 324 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:23.679 sure it's nineteen sixty one or thereabouts in the journal 325 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.759 I think of Law and Economics, when it was just nineteen. 326 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:30.879 Sixty Okay, I was wrong as usual. But the post 327 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.080 theorem he actually published in the thirties, and then I 328 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.279 don't published it twice, But go ahead, I. 329 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:40.399 Don't think that's right. However, here's two points about it. 330 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:42.960 One is, I believe it is still true. It is 331 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.960 still the most cited article in law reviews and economic literature. 332 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:51.320 In his I think, ever the most psycho article. 333 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:53.600 It's just humbling, and but the one reason for that 334 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.919 is and here's the second point where the fun comes. 335 00:16:57.480 --> 00:16:58.840 I heard him once admit. 336 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.919 That he wrote it in a deliberately he not quite deliberately, 337 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:04.559 but sort of a perverse, obscure way to make people 338 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.160 get headaches. I think it'd be fun, John if you 339 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.640 and I made Lucretia read it, because our head would explode. 340 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:15.240 No, I mean, I'm happy in my ignorance. Thank you. 341 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:16.799 I do want to ask you, guys. 342 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:19.559 It is great. He was a wonderful, great artist. 343 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:21.720 It's a great idea. 344 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.759 There's other stuff. 345 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.680 That's for me, okay, But I do have a question 346 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.880 for you then, because you you alluded. 347 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:30.119 To some of the other kinds of. 348 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.759 Forces, influences and so on that would keep people from 349 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.079 from creating nuisances with their property. 350 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:39.440 Absent zoning laws. 351 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.119 I want to bring in the only thing I know 352 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:46.880 about zoning, which isn't really zoning, but as homeowners associations, 353 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:51.559 which are those kind of more private agreements. Now, mind you, 354 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.400 the piece of property that I wanted to buy because 355 00:17:54.400 --> 00:18:00.960 of its amazing location was already owned by or you know, 356 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:04.440 some kind of association, so there was no choice but 357 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:09.960 to agree to their idiotic anyway. And just so you know, 358 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.440 the homeowners association called up mister Lucretia one day and said, 359 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.759 you know, you're building a house and we haven't. 360 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:18.440 Got your plans. 361 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:21.519 And he said, oh that you know, I'm sure that's 362 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:25.119 something that the builder's supposed to take care of the contractor. 363 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:26.960 And she said, well, we don't have them. And if 364 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:29.480 and the house was just about done. And if we 365 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.079 don't have them and you turn them in and we 366 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:33.640 don't like it, you'll have to tear your house down 367 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:40.720 and start over. Like Yeah, but they did tell me that, 368 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.960 I that my my dragon for Halloween was out three 369 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:46.440 days too early and they were gonna find me for it. 370 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:51.359 Okay. So I have. 371 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:55.200 A huge banner in my garage that says defund the HOA. 372 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.759 So I'm, as a conservative, sort of torn between this. 373 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:03.519 I have seen the result of no zoning, right. However, 374 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:05.160 I also don't like all of this. 375 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:07.200 Yeah, my property. 376 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:09.359 I get to do what I want to, very basic 377 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:11.000 natural right, right, guys? 378 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:11.880 Am I right? 379 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:12.400 Yeah? 380 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:16.839 Yes, okay, Well we conservatives like to argue about these things, 381 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.160 don't we. 382 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.799 Well yeah, most different because the HOA you gave it 383 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:24.920 up in the contract, you signed it. 384 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.599 I did it. 385 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:32.079 I was forced into it though. Well yeah, okay, what 386 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.000 about when they change it them? 387 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.240 I hate them, but yeah, I know you're right, My 388 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:39.920 Karen's right. 389 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:44.319 I actually think those things could be successfully challenged legally. 390 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:45.759 But that and. 391 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:47.559 They have been to some extent, like when they have 392 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.319 interfered with First Amendment rights to fly flags and things 393 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:50.640 like that. 394 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:52.960 We can't put up political science. 395 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:53.640 Right. 396 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.759 But now, John, so you went to the coast theorem 397 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.720 as the remedy, and well, that's interesting, and I think 398 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:02.680 that's basically right. And I can actually play out a 399 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.759 coast a little better than you did a coast theorem 400 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:11.559 resolution of Lucretia's brothel and porn shop. 401 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.599