Speaker 1: It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff and with me. I'm
Speaker 2: so I'm so thrilled. It is author Paula Wyman, and
Speaker 2: her latest book, which just came out, is The Bad Naturalist. So, Paula,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for I can't wait to talk
Speaker 2: to you about this book.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so Okay, So the premise of the book is
Speaker 2: that you decided to buy a two hundred acre mountaintop
Speaker 2: to eventually live there.
Speaker 4: What made you decide to do that?
Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you what. I was always really very
Speaker 3: attached to nature as a kid. I was always into insects,
Speaker 3: you know, turning over rocks, collecting insects and bughouses and
Speaker 3: watching them, and continued my passion for the natural world
Speaker 3: throughout my life.
Speaker 2: And just.
Speaker 3: Several years ago, my husband and I had been we
Speaker 3: had been wanting for a long time to move out
Speaker 3: to the country to get a small farmhouse, and I
Speaker 3: wanted to raise sheep, and so we were looking for
Speaker 3: a place for a very long time. And during that
Speaker 3: process I was continuing to read about conservation and about
Speaker 3: just different aspects of nature. I tend to get obsessed
Speaker 3: and sort of deep dive into things and the thing. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So the thing I was interested in at the moment
Speaker 3: was I had been reading a lot about native plants,
Speaker 3: about bringing native plants back to your yard, if you
Speaker 3: have a suburban yard with grass, or you know, planting
Speaker 3: native plants in your garden or your window box in
Speaker 3: the city. And I had also read a book where
Speaker 3: a farmer in England had taken a thousand acres of
Speaker 3: her farm and let it go back to nature. And
Speaker 3: so I had these ideas in mind, and I thought,
Speaker 3: wherever we end up, I want to plant a little
Speaker 3: native meadow. I'm going to plant this little native meadow
Speaker 3: and I'm going to put a shed there where I'm
Speaker 3: going to sit and write my book, and I'm going
Speaker 3: to watch the flowers throw and it's going to be
Speaker 3: very romantic. So I knew that I wanted to plant
Speaker 3: a small meadow to help you know, native wildlife and
Speaker 3: native plants. And while we were looking, we heard about
Speaker 3: this place that had a fantastic view and we thought
Speaker 3: we were just coming up to see the view from
Speaker 3: this mountain and it was August. It was hot. The
Speaker 3: road did not go all the way up. It was
Speaker 3: basically rocks and roots, and it was pretty steep. So
Speaker 3: we hiked up and there was a path, like a
Speaker 3: narrow path mode along through all of this dense vegetation
Speaker 3: because apparently it hadn't been touched in quite a while,
Speaker 3: and it used to be a cattle farm, but there
Speaker 3: was this dense vegetation. It was over my head these
Speaker 3: yellow flowers. And I were walking up this path hemmed
Speaker 3: in by these flowers, and get up to the top
Speaker 3: and I look out and I see this open meadow
Speaker 3: that is around seventy five acres with all of these
Speaker 3: yellow flowers, these six foot plus tall yellow flowers, and
Speaker 3: all kinds of other bees and birds and everything flying
Speaker 3: around my head. And I looked at and I thought
Speaker 3: I was going to plant a small meadow of native plant.
Speaker 3: And that seems really like nothing compared to that. I mean,
Speaker 3: it just seems seems like I could I could do
Speaker 3: something really big here. Look at this place. You know,
Speaker 3: what could I do with it? I sort of didn't
Speaker 3: think about in the moment that I didn't know a
Speaker 3: lot about plants. I wasn't good at gardening. I didn't
Speaker 3: know much about restoring native meadows or you know, I
Speaker 3: knew how to plant something, but I didn't know anything
Speaker 3: about this place. I didn't know what questions to ask
Speaker 3: for whom to ask. So anyway, we did it anyway.
Speaker 4: And that's right.
Speaker 2: But you know, I have to tell you, I feel
Speaker 2: like because I mean because just reading the book, and
Speaker 2: you know, I was jotting notes like I don't know
Speaker 2: what that is.
Speaker 4: I don't know what that is. You.
Speaker 2: I feel like you were ahead of, say somebody who
Speaker 2: doesn't do what you do, because you're so very environmentally
Speaker 2: minded and and I mean like that's kind of in
Speaker 2: your wheelhouse, as opposed to somebody, say, who was an
Speaker 2: electrician and decided to do the same thing. And I
Speaker 2: don't know, I feel like you you were okay to
Speaker 2: do that, even though it was more than you were
Speaker 2: expecting or more than you thought you guys were going
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 4: Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Like I kind of feel like you had a head
Speaker 2: start already on it because you are so connected to
Speaker 2: nature and know about things. Because I just felt like
Speaker 2: through your book you were talking about the stuff that
Speaker 2: you were describing, and I was like, wow, that's pretty
Speaker 2: cool that she knows that that's that. Like I would
Speaker 2: just think, oh, that's a weed, right, But you were
Speaker 2: very specific, even though I know you had help from
Speaker 2: other people. But your general brain, the way it's wired,
Speaker 2: recognizes weeds and flowers that I think someone who's not
Speaker 2: involved like you are would be able to recognize.
Speaker 1: I think anyway, Well, I did have a long time
Speaker 1: love and appreciation for nature, yeah, but I was less
Speaker 1: focused on plants.
Speaker 3: I would get really into some like creature or place.
Speaker 3: But I was I was like I used to when
Speaker 3: I was a kid. I would find horseshoe crabs on
Speaker 3: the beach and I would try to put them in
Speaker 3: the bathtub in our hotel, but like bathe them. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Fun.
Speaker 3: So I would get really obsessed with things. And also
Speaker 3: as an adult, I was really into gray whales for
Speaker 3: a while. I was really into lizards for a while,
Speaker 3: you know, and I had to know everything out them
Speaker 3: in that moment. But but it didn't really happen for
Speaker 3: me with plants until I got to until I found
Speaker 3: this place, and so I really did. I mean, the
Speaker 3: way I found out about this stuff I wrote about
Speaker 3: in the book was I had to learn I really
Speaker 3: I had to learn. And I started out, like you said,
Speaker 3: talking to a lot of experts who knew way more
Speaker 3: than I did, who had been doing this for a lifetime.
Speaker 3: And I even walk, you know, I walk on the
Speaker 3: on the meadow with especially this one woman named Charlotte,
Speaker 3: who is like a plant guru. You can recognize things
Speaker 3: even when they're dead, you know, amazing, yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: And so she started me in like learning to pay
Speaker 3: attention to plants and look at them and notice them
Speaker 3: and not just see like landscape or backdrop, because that's
Speaker 3: how I tended to see a lot of plants really
Speaker 3: until until I started doing this. So I guess I'm
Speaker 3: trying to say, is I think anyone can learn right, right,
Speaker 3: I can learn this, anyone could learn, right.
Speaker 4: But yeah, and I mean, and you you really.
Speaker 2: Did a great job of describing and making the reader
Speaker 2: feel like that person like for me was learning as well,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, because I'm yeah, I mean, like
Speaker 2: I'm really into plants. And when I was growing up
Speaker 2: as a kid, we always had gardens. And I live
Speaker 2: in an apartment, so I have a lot of plants
Speaker 2: in my apartment. And I'm like, I probably could recognize things,
Speaker 2: but wow, where you were. You know, it was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if I would be able to do
Speaker 2: what you did because you know, I guess, yeah, you
Speaker 2: had help or whatever.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I just feel like.
Speaker 2: It might maybe for someone else, but maybe because you
Speaker 2: get obsessed with things, which is a really good quality,
Speaker 2: because then you learn where somebody else might have been
Speaker 2: overwhelmed and said, oh why did we do this?
Speaker 4: But you never I don't think you ever felt that way?
Speaker 4: Did you ever feel that way? Going along?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: I did you did?
Speaker 3: Okay? Oh? Yes, absolutely? And I asked myself that question
Speaker 3: many times, like was this crazy? Why why did I
Speaker 3: decide to do I could have I could have just
Speaker 3: you know, my kids had gone off, they were adulting,
Speaker 3: they had left. I could have just done something a
Speaker 3: little easier. I could have kept doing what I was doing,
Speaker 3: you know, writing editing that you know, something that wasn't
Speaker 3: such a big challenge or a big leap. And this
Speaker 3: is a big leap to like to learn something very new,
Speaker 3: even in a category that, as you said, I've always
Speaker 3: been interested in.
Speaker 4: Sure, I still had to.
Speaker 3: Learn something very new. I didn't know anything about. This
Speaker 3: is technically ecological restoration that I'm doing And I didn't
Speaker 3: know anything about doing that really other than the little
Speaker 3: articles I'd read, and I did regularly ask myself, especially
Speaker 3: when I made big mistakes that I thought were making
Speaker 3: things worse, or when I would find a new like
Speaker 3: undesirable plant taking over an area and I hadn't, you know,
Speaker 3: because I hadn't been paying attention to that spot. I
Speaker 3: would just be like, I'm so bad at this, I'm
Speaker 3: just making things worse, right, But you aren't doing?
Speaker 4: Yeah, what you aren't because you were learning.
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, when there there was a part when
Speaker 2: you when you talked about that and how the plant
Speaker 2: and not that it was a bad plant, but it
Speaker 2: was like one of those weeds that just takes over.
Speaker 2: And it just reminded me again on a smaller level,
Speaker 2: which is why I think anyone can relate to what
Speaker 2: you went through. I mean, you know, I have this
Speaker 2: vine different plants and they go it goes nuts, and
Speaker 2: I the other day I saw that it was starting
Speaker 2: to root into another plant, and I'm like, what are
Speaker 2: you doing?
Speaker 4: You can't do that, you know.
Speaker 2: And that was on a very much a very smaller
Speaker 2: level than what you were dealing with.
Speaker 3: So it was.
Speaker 2: It was relatable, if that makes sense. But I also think, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: it definitely was. But again I don't know if you know,
Speaker 2: I mean for me, I probably would have been overwhelmed
Speaker 2: and been like, uh, I'm out of here, which you
Speaker 2: did not do, which I think is really impressive. You know,
Speaker 2: you stuck with it. How many how I wasn't sure
Speaker 2: of the timeline. How long ago did you buy this property?
Speaker 3: It's been just about four years.
Speaker 4: Oh, that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: I thought it was that small amount of time. But
Speaker 2: that's really a small amount of time really when you think,
Speaker 2: I mean for us, probably for you, it feels like
Speaker 2: eighty years.
Speaker 3: But I started in right away, like contacting people, and
Speaker 3: I talked to one person and they'd say, have you
Speaker 3: talked to so and so? And then I'd talk to
Speaker 3: so and so, and usually when I asked people if
Speaker 3: they wanted to come out and take a walk on
Speaker 3: the mountain, everybody was gained for that, sure, And luckily
Speaker 3: around here there are a lot of great resources. There
Speaker 3: are all these wonderful nonprofit organizations that are looking to
Speaker 3: help farmers and landowners to you know, improve the improve
Speaker 3: the native habitat, sure on their land. And you know
Speaker 3: as well as like government organizations and just individuals. I
Speaker 3: also talk to farmers and foresters and arborous and the
Speaker 3: Agricultural Extension Office and just basically anyone who would answer
Speaker 3: the phone.
Speaker 4: I got that's funny, Well you did your homework.
Speaker 2: But I feel it's also you know, especially where we
Speaker 2: are today, you know, in twenty twenty five, and how
Speaker 2: humans have kind of destroyed much of the world, you know.
Speaker 4: In the environment and the rainforest and everything.
Speaker 2: Else, and the goal is to get back to nature
Speaker 2: and help things come back, you know, animals and they're
Speaker 2: not extinct, and plants that will bring them back to
Speaker 2: where they belong. So I feel like your path that
Speaker 2: you did is something that more people probably would love
Speaker 2: to do and might be doing now, you know, looking forward,
Speaker 2: because we have to fix the earth. So I think
Speaker 2: you're you kind of might be a trendsetter with.
Speaker 3: That, oh I hope. So yeah, I think there is.
Speaker 3: I mean the trend probably started before me, because like
Speaker 3: the Homegrown National Park movement, which was started by Doug
Speaker 3: Tellamy and his book Nature's That's Hope, which talks about
Speaker 3: the importance and why bringing native plants to your yard.
Speaker 3: If you say you're in the suburbs and you have
Speaker 3: a long you know, or even just planting a native
Speaker 3: plant in the window box. How helpful that care for
Speaker 3: local pollinators and birds and everything, and that is that
Speaker 3: is a big movement and that really inspired me. And yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that. I think it is a thing that
Speaker 3: more people can do. I think it starts with, at
Speaker 3: least for me, it started with paying attention and observing
Speaker 3: and just looking more closely at the natural world wherever
Speaker 3: you find yourself. Yes, it's funny that, you know, when
Speaker 3: I lived in an apartment and when I lived in
Speaker 3: the suburbs, I didn't pay as much attention to my
Speaker 3: immediate surrounding as when like I was traveling. You know,
Speaker 3: I'd grow on a trip and I'd be totally into
Speaker 3: whatever was going on with nature there. But then my
Speaker 3: backyard it was just like, oh, so many mosquitos.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's probably I think that's what most
Speaker 2: people probably do, because you kind of get a I
Speaker 2: guess I don't not that you're bored with it, but
Speaker 2: you get accustomed to it, and so you kind of
Speaker 2: ignore things.
Speaker 3: You know, And I think that's so natural.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's human nature. I was going to say, yeah,
Speaker 4: and I think you can.
Speaker 3: You can sort of look at your surroundings with fresh eyes.
Speaker 3: You know, the city park that you walk past every day,
Speaker 3: what's growing there? Like if you stop and look at
Speaker 3: like what what insects are you seeing? What birds are
Speaker 3: you seeing? What? What is that plant in your backyard
Speaker 3: that you know maybe you've been like walking past it
Speaker 3: for weeks and no idea what it is, but never
Speaker 3: thought about, you know, finding out what Maybe it's a
Speaker 3: native plant or maybe it's a bad weed, and if
Speaker 3: you pull it, something good will grow there and maybe
Speaker 3: you'll see butterflies visit it. So I think that it
Speaker 3: starts with observing and letting the things that grab you
Speaker 3: drive you right, you know, because if you're engaged, if
Speaker 3: you're really interested, then you're more likely to stick with it,
Speaker 3: that's true, more likely to do something. So if you plant,
Speaker 3: like a milk weed plant in that corner in your backyard,
Speaker 3: and you know, next spring or summer you see a
Speaker 3: monarch butterfly there or a caterpillar there or something, it's
Speaker 3: so empowering and inspiring and motivating Like you did that,
Speaker 3: you made that happen. Yeah, No, for sure, what happened
Speaker 3: if you hadn't done it right.
Speaker 4: Right, right, No, it's true, and that's what your book.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like auto biographical really because it's your
Speaker 2: whole journey of you doing that, and I feel like
Speaker 2: you kind of discovered and rediscovered a lot of nature.
Speaker 2: I was just I mean, there are a couple of
Speaker 2: things that I thought was I thought this was a
Speaker 2: kind I never really thought about that. But you referred
Speaker 2: to your dog as a dog a walking seed and
Speaker 2: plant distribution, and I never ever thought of that. But
Speaker 2: it's so it's like brilliant because it's true. You know,
Speaker 2: dogs catch pollen, they catch seeds, they catch so much.
Speaker 2: So thank you for saying that, because it's something I
Speaker 2: never thought about, but it is so true.
Speaker 3: It is, and really especially here because those tall flowers
Speaker 3: I was talking about, they're called yellow crownbeard, and they
Speaker 3: release these seeds all throughout the fall and really still
Speaker 3: even though they're dead, those seeds are still coming off.
Speaker 3: And my dog collects them like velcro, right, and there
Speaker 3: are like hundreds of them and she comes in and
Speaker 3: I like basically after brushure every time she comes in
Speaker 3: because the seeds stick to everything. Sure, and at least
Speaker 3: those are native plant seeds, right, But if she gets
Speaker 3: into the silk grass, that's another cop right, right.
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, it's true.
Speaker 3: And we get it on our shoes, on our vehicles.
Speaker 4: In our own air.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: You do know it's true, It's really true.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I just thought.
Speaker 2: I just thought it was really fascinating. And for those
Speaker 2: who are just you know, who are listening and they
Speaker 2: want to read the book too. This your property is
Speaker 2: in Virginia, correct, in the Blue Ridge Mountains.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's in the foothills of the Blue Ridge,
Speaker 3: the Northern Blue Ridge, sort of not far from Shenandoah
Speaker 3: National Park. And yeah, the the peed Months I guess
Speaker 3: you would call it, but it's the Piedmonts. As you
Speaker 3: get the closer art of the Blue Ridge, the taller
Speaker 3: they are, I guess. Yeah, And we're pretty close to
Speaker 3: the Blue Ridge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I was Actually this was another
Speaker 2: fact that I didn't know that eighty five percent of
Speaker 2: the grasslands or own IVY, which I thought was actually
Speaker 2: pretty good because sometimes I worry about you know, government properties,
Speaker 2: national government properties becoming.
Speaker 4: Not being used or being used for something they shouldn't
Speaker 4: be used for.
Speaker 2: So the fact that I think eighty five percent owned
Speaker 2: privately that's a good thing.
Speaker 4: Am I correct in thinking that?
Speaker 3: Well, it can be, it's I think it's it's a
Speaker 3: little bit deceptive because I think a lot of people
Speaker 3: have this idea that as long as we maintain the
Speaker 3: national parks and state parks and the local parks, then
Speaker 3: we're saving nature.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: But those parks, first of all, are not like a
Speaker 3: true cross section of all of the habitats that were needed,
Speaker 3: and they're also just a tiny percentage of natural areas. Right,
Speaker 3: So when you say that, so, yes, eighty five percent
Speaker 3: of grass ends and more than fifty percent of forests
Speaker 3: are privately owned, and so that's good if those private
Speaker 3: owners are taking care of that land, you know, showing
Speaker 3: some responsibility for making sure that things are you know,
Speaker 3: things are good for sure nature that lives there, and
Speaker 3: that's not always and.
Speaker 4: That's not always the case. Yeah, no, no, that makes sense. No,
Speaker 4: I get that. I get that.
Speaker 2: So I know you're as you said at the beginning
Speaker 2: too when we were chatting, that your goal, of course,
Speaker 2: was to have a house, and your house is complete,
Speaker 2: you are currently living there as of now or yes.
Speaker 3: It is now? Yes, okay, and I but it's only
Speaker 3: been really a few months.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, we've been.
Speaker 3: Able to live here. And so before that, I was
Speaker 3: coming and going, you know, I'd come in the morning
Speaker 3: and i'd leave in the evening. And now my husband,
Speaker 3: he's an eagle scout, so he was right, he's mister outdoors,
Speaker 3: so he would camp here sometimes. And you would think
Speaker 3: that I miss outdoors or whatever. But and I am,
Speaker 3: but I can't sleep on the ground.
Speaker 4: Anymore, right, right, we're not twelve anymore. I get that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really cool, though I'm not even sure I
Speaker 3: could do it when I was twelve.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I know, I know, but that's but that's
Speaker 4: really cool.
Speaker 2: Congratulations because that was your original kind of romantic dream, but.
Speaker 4: You did it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, And it does make it a lot easier to
Speaker 1: do the work here, sure, because you know, being able
Speaker 1: to wake up here and being able to work all
Speaker 1: day and just being able to keep up with things
Speaker 1: and being able to.
Speaker 3: See what's happening more of more of the land.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm sure it must be a gorgeous place
Speaker 2: to wake up to and to go to sleep to
Speaker 2: at night.
Speaker 3: It is. I have to say that every sunset is different,
Speaker 3: and it is really beautiful. It's snow covered at the
Speaker 3: moment from the snowstorm that we had a few days ago,
Speaker 3: and it's I wish my room were not snow covered anymore.
Speaker 4: Right right, Yeah, yeah, I know.
Speaker 3: But otherwise, yeah, it's really pretty.
Speaker 4: It's great.
Speaker 2: No, I think I think it's a wonderful story. It's
Speaker 2: a it's real.
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, it's.
Speaker 2: Something that you experienced and that you you met your
Speaker 2: you achieved your goal of what you wanted to do
Speaker 2: when you bought that piece of property. If what would
Speaker 2: be the one piece of advice if someone who's listening
Speaker 2: to this right now is thinking about, you know what,
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to retire and do what Paula did.
Speaker 4: What what would be if there.
Speaker 2: Is one piece of advice to give to someone who
Speaker 2: wants to take the same road that you just did.
Speaker 3: The exactly Well, that's a great question. I would say.
Speaker 3: I would say, maybe looks for a place with not
Speaker 3: such a steep road.
Speaker 4: That wasn't what I was expecting. But okay, yeah, everything.
Speaker 3: Takes longer when you're on a mountain, everything takes longer.
Speaker 3: Everything is a little bit more difficult to say that
Speaker 3: because people have to get up here to and and
Speaker 3: just look at your local resources and see you know,
Speaker 3: what are they saying is look for the helpers, look
Speaker 3: for your local resources, and be willing to ask questions
Speaker 3: and okay, I guess this is this is the real one.
Speaker 4: Okay, And that is.
Speaker 3: Question your question because for a while I would look
Speaker 3: at a plant and I would just assume that the
Speaker 3: first thing I learned about it was that was the
Speaker 3: right answer. Don't expect there to be one right answer.
Speaker 3: There's going to be a different answer depending on your goals.
Speaker 3: If you're a farmer, you may not want this one
Speaker 3: particular plant on your property, but if you're looking to
Speaker 3: have native meadows, it may be the perfect plant for you.
Speaker 3: So you have to really consider the source of the
Speaker 3: information and and make sure that the information that you're
Speaker 3: getting matches your goals. And don't worry about the perfect
Speaker 3: solution because there isn't one.
Speaker 4: Oh that's good, that's perfect.
Speaker 2: And just to go along with what you said at
Speaker 2: the beginning about not having not being such a steep road,
Speaker 2: at least you know when you have visitors, they really
Speaker 2: want to see you. That's right, right, So that's wonderful
Speaker 2: so bad Naturalists from Paula Wyman.
Speaker 4: Tell me where can my listeners get the book?
Speaker 2: It just came out, so it's hot off the presses,
Speaker 2: and I think they'll be very I think they'll be
Speaker 2: thrilled with this book.
Speaker 4: It's so very.
Speaker 2: Interesting, and hey, you never know, like I said, you
Speaker 2: might be a trendsetter now for more people who.
Speaker 4: Might want to do it. So where can they get
Speaker 4: your book?
Speaker 3: I would love that it should be available in any
Speaker 3: bookstore near you and online. And if you want more
Speaker 3: information about me, you can go to my website at
Speaker 3: Paulawyman dot com, where my events are lists and my
Speaker 3: social media and you can contact me if you have
Speaker 3: questions or want to talk about anything. If you're thinking
Speaker 3: about doing something like this, and I would say go
Speaker 3: for it. And if you want to ask me for
Speaker 3: advice or anything, I'm happy to respond. I love talking
Speaker 3: with readers and visiting book clubs and all of that.
Speaker 3: And I have a newsletter. I should mention my newsletter
Speaker 3: if it's free, and it's the continuing story basically of
Speaker 3: what I'm discovering here, because the project goes on even
Speaker 3: though the book is done. I'm always discovering new things
Speaker 3: and I put them in the newsletter. It's the Bad
Speaker 3: Naturalist Newsletter. You can subscribe on my website.
Speaker 4: Oh that's terrific. I will do that too, I definitely
Speaker 4: will do that.
Speaker 3: Awesome.
Speaker 2: So this way I can keep in touch with you
Speaker 2: because I know there'll be something for your next book
Speaker 2: and then we can chat again.
Speaker 4: So Paula, I love that. Yes, me too. Thank you
Speaker 4: so much, this is so fascinating.
Speaker 2: Thank you for your wonderful book and for chatting with
Speaker 2: me today on Maria's MutS and stuff, and thank you.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 3: Sara has never been a Rador operator and this not
Speaker 3: see you rader vamigator