WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:11.880 Welcome to the Gods I View podcast. This is your host, Trevor. 2 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:17.079 I'm excited about this show today a little different. We 3 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.160 are going to be playing three clips that I think 4 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:24.160 fit together kind of nice, and we will be talking 5 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:30.000 about Jordan Peterson's health issues, what little we know about them, 6 00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:35.159 and some of the events leading up to that health issue, 7 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:39.600 his public events, and some kind of drama that transpired. 8 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:44.399 Why am I deciding to do this because to me, 9 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:47.640 this is sort of gossip, you know, and we generally 10 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:56.560 don't do gossip. Well two reasons. One is incredibly degenerate 11 00:00:57.079 --> 00:01:00.200 and selfish, and that's just his degenerate. The right word 12 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:03.840 to degrade it, I guess is when I put a 13 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.079 famous person's name in the title of an episode, I 14 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:11.799 get five to ten times as much traffic. So that's 15 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:15.400 that's the reason. One reason Two, I do sort of 16 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:19.120 have like just like a caddy gossipy neighbor lady interest 17 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:23.120 in the topic, you know, because Jordan Peterson is a 18 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:25.319 is a is a big figure, and so he's a 19 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:30.319 public figure, so he's certainly merit's discussion on a podcast, 20 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.359 I'd say, and I said two reasons, but actually three 21 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:43.799 I have been knee deep, waist deep, navel deep, collarbone 22 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:52.680 deep in theological debates and discussion and books. I've been 23 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:58.040 reading books, and I've just decided that I got out 24 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:03.959 way over my and I believe that is an idiom. 25 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:06.079 That means I was out of my debts. You know, 26 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:08.159 I was on a black diamond, and I shouldn't have been. 27 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:16.039 And it is just so deep and rich and nuanced, 28 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:19.039 and so much of it is just arguing about what 29 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.159 words mean. You know. It's kind of a critique of 30 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:25.879 philosophy and theology that I just don't want to talk 31 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:27.639 about it anymore. And I kind of want you to 32 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.240 dismiss anything I've ever said, or at least listen with 33 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.280 grace when you go back and listen, because man, you know, 34 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.199 I've been watching all the camps. I've been seeing all 35 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:42.400 the angles, and there's like interesting and fascinating arguments. And 36 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:45.599 the history, oh my gosh. The history is just just 37 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:49.000 the non religious history just well not non religious, but 38 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:53.400 you know, not theological meaning like the history of the 39 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:56.800 Roman Empire, you know, the history of ancient Israel. So 40 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:00.800 it's just too much. I just don't know. I just 41 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.639 it's one it's at Dunning Kruger effect. You know, google 42 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:06.120 that if you want to see the graph. But there's 43 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:10.039 like the chasm of ignorance, and you know, anyway, I'm 44 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:15.080 I'm past the chasm of ignorance. I'm in the realization stage. 45 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:20.879 That is just too much and I am underqualified. I 46 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:24.120 probably will come back to it at some point, but 47 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:26.879 for now, I just gotta take a little you know, 48 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:30.120 I gotta sit with it. And so other kind of 49 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:33.360 housekeeping things related to the show. I had some folks 50 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:37.240 reach out about being co host or maybe just guest 51 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:41.960 co host. Very cool. I hope to keep those conversations going. 52 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.240 I've been a little crazy busy this week, so I'll 53 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.919 get back to those folks. But I think that the 54 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.520 show will go on in some form. You know, if 55 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.599 I if I wanted to really do it, I would 56 00:03:56.639 --> 00:03:59.479 have to go YouTube. And I'm kind of bitter at 57 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:06.240 YouTube the way they've handled, you know, censorship and what 58 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:09.479 they've kind of done to podcasting. Podcasting used to be 59 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:14.319 an RSS driven thing. That's the way Adam Curry invented it, 60 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:18.560 and it was it's just a cool technology because it's 61 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:23.759 sort of I mean, listen, no technology is like censorship 62 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:28.639 proof obviously, but it was it was very I don't know, 63 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:32.759 it was very hold on, my wife is texting me, 64 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:43.160 doesn't she know? I'm recording podcasts the masses literally one hundred, 65 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.399 although in this case sends Jordan Peterson's in the title 66 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:53.639 hundreds of listeners. Okay, hold on, all right, sorry about that. 67 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:56.639 This will be one of the first times I actually 68 00:04:56.680 --> 00:04:58.800 have to go back and edit the show to edit 69 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.480 out that. A few minutes it was just gone. So 70 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:05.120 what was I talking about? Oh, just a reluctant acceptance 71 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:11.480 that to grow a podcast you probably also need to 72 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:14.439 be a YouTuber. It's it's a weird thing for me 73 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.639 to care about. I mean, to me, podcasting is audio. 74 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:22.639 It's always been audio. It's RSS based. But now if 75 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:25.639 you record yourself doing a podcast, that's a YouTube channel, 76 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:27.879 you know, then, so that is where the list of 77 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.040 the people are. But I mean, I can't really be 78 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:33.639 a public I can't really be a public person, you know. 79 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:37.480 I've got a got a job, and then I really 80 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:40.120 have to sort of monitor what I'm saying. So anyway, 81 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.720 I'm conflicted about it. Well, but for now, we're going 82 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.959 to keep doing what we do. So all right, so 83 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.639 let's get into this thing with Jordan Peterson. It is 84 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:56.399 quite quite interesting actually, So I mean I think everyone 85 00:05:56.439 --> 00:06:00.160 knows who Jordan Peterson is if you don't know the detail, 86 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:02.560 you know, he sort of rose to prominence as a 87 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:06.000 I believe, a psychology professor at the University of Toronto 88 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:14.879 who refused to sort of affirm pronouns, you know what 89 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.759 I mean, Like, if you want to call yourself whatever, 90 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:22.279 that's fine, but you can't compel me to call you 91 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:27.439 you know, X y Z. Now, I think if this 92 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:30.120 were like a one off, you know, like let's just 93 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.160 talk about the cultural the culture war for a second, 94 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:37.839 something nice and non controversial, you know, like I told 95 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:42.000 you this story about that person, you know. Yeah, Like 96 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:47.079 my default is politeness and not hurting feelings, right, and 97 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:51.399 so yeah, I'm actually kind of okay being compelled in 98 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:55.560 like the in like these certain scenarios, right, but it 99 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.240 has kind of it It kind of got a little 100 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:02.639 out of control. I mean, politeness can be taken advantage of, 101 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:07.199 you know, and so for something like that that does 102 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:11.439 kind of seem like a social phenomenon. No offense, of course, 103 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:18.720 I listen, there are legitimate, ambiguous external genitalia. I mean 104 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.240 people can be born. There's all sorts of things that 105 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:24.800 can happen. So like, I'm very open to the idea, 106 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:30.560 and I would seek to empathize and accommodate. We're able. 107 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:36.800 But you know, however, right like when one out of 108 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:40.480 seven women are theyse and it is much more common, 109 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:45.040 and you know in young women, which is like a 110 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:50.480 very social young women are very what am I trying 111 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:53.720 to say, but I mean I think we would say 112 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:57.920 like social networks. I don't mean like digital social networks, 113 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:05.319 but like friends are incredibly important to women, young women, 114 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:09.800 especially relative to men. Obviously men need social support and 115 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:12.600 friendship and stuff too, But some of these sort of 116 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:18.920 social phenomenons they do seem to be bigger issues in women. 117 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:23.639 Not all social phenomenon, but you know, like like cutting, 118 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:27.759 for example, it was more of my generation's thing, right, 119 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:32.240 this was a anorexia. Again, these things can all affect 120 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:34.960 men as well, but these are just sort of social phenomenas. 121 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.519 I just walked through a veritable minefield anyway, So it 122 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:43.000 went too far. And I think, you know, say what 123 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:46.159 you will about Jordan Peterson. I think he was an 124 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:52.320 important figure during that time, you know, and wrote some books, 125 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:57.120 very interesting guy to listen to. He has over recent 126 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:02.600 years kind of become like increasingly I would say, I 127 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.360 would say his openness. You know, he likes to talk 128 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:10.559 about personality characteristics. You know, his conscientiousness and openness has 129 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:14.639 been in like a precipitous free fall over the past 130 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:15.960 couple of years. And I don't know what it is. 131 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.360 I mean, he works at the Daily Wire, there's new 132 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:24.480 political dynamics going on with that. He has a recurring 133 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:29.000 health issue related to a benzodiazepine drug addiction, and so 134 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:33.720 this is a horrible thing and he almost apparently died 135 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.480 once because of it in the past, something related to it. 136 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.519 It seems as back again, and we'll get into that, 137 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:46.879 and so you know, who knows. But one thing lately 138 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:49.759 that he sort of developed a reputation for us his 139 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:56.919 unwillingness to publicly state what his religious position is. And 140 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:01.480 on the one hand, I really not only sympathize, but 141 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:07.000 I would say empathize with that, because you know, I 142 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.960 have a complex relationship with belief as well, you know, 143 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:14.240 like many people, and so I don't necessarily like being 144 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:17.200 on the put on the spot to sort of state 145 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:21.279 what I think about everything. And in all that, but 146 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:26.759 my the position I retreat to is generally like a 147 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:30.480 position of like, yeah, I don't know, you know, there 148 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:34.360 are certain things that I believe or I aspire to believe, 149 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:40.320 Like I am affirmatively trying to believe as the evidence 150 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:44.679 allows me, as my rational nature allows, as my you know, 151 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:49.159 ability to suspend disbelief allows, you know. So, and I'm 152 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:53.200 very conscious of that. I'm constantly thinking about confirmation bias, 153 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:56.759 and so that would sort of be the position like 154 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:00.600 if if someone demanded that I say something now. But 155 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:05.679 here is the thing. There's two things that make that difficult. 156 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.360 One is in like a debate context. Of course, you 157 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:13.039 don't want to look stupid and that and pride can 158 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:15.960 motivate you to double down on bad positions. But also, 159 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:22.240 and I felt this personally, like with Christianity, it goes 160 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:26.399 beyond pride, and you almost sort of feel responsibility to 161 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:32.399 portray your position a certain way, to portray your faith 162 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:36.039 a certain way. And so someone could be reluctant to 163 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:39.639 just say I don't know, right, depending on the context 164 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:42.519 of the conversation, you may not want to acknowledge a 165 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:46.080 point or whatever. I maybe some of that's going on 166 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:51.960 with Jordan I kind of suspect he's sort of built 167 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.559 an image at somehow. I mean, it might not be 168 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:57.200 his fault that he's developed this reputation. I mean, he's 169 00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:01.879 never affirmatively set it, but you know, he sort of 170 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:07.960 developed a reputation as a Christian figure. Of course, he's 171 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:12.159 never said that he's a Christian or that he believes 172 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:15.799 set any of the core Christian tenants. He sort of 173 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:21.840 has this like complex way of denouncing secularism, but as 174 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:25.440 far as I know, he's never really proactively affirmed any 175 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:29.240 of the core Christian tenants, which to me is fine. 176 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:32.240 But I think he doesn't want to say it's because 177 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.600 imagine if you know ninety percent of your audience is 178 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.120 Christian and you're like, yeah, I don't know, I don't 179 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.480 know what I believe. I guess that's that's actually an 180 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:43.279 agnostic position that would that would put him in the 181 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:47.639 same camp as Alex O'Connor, who's like the villain. You know. 182 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:53.799 So I think it's not really just a desire to 183 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:58.039 be a good portrayer of the Gospel message. It's not 184 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:02.879 that as far as there's reluctance to say what he believes. 185 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:05.240 It's not that he doesn't want to say he has doubts, 186 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.000 which is I would say the situation I find myself 187 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.360 in a lot. I don't want to publicly say that 188 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:15.679 in like a debate context because you know, I don't know. 189 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.519 You just feel you'd feel responsible, Like what if someone 190 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:22.200 loses their way because of something you say? Right, it's heavy, 191 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:26.120 but I don't think it's necessarily that for him, although 192 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:27.919 it could be if we wanted to be charitable. To me, 193 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:32.399 it feels more like the kind of audience capture, total speculation. 194 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:35.720 I don't know. So we're going to play three clips 195 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:40.000 and let me kind of lay out a rational for 196 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:42.559 why we're playing these three clips. One is an update 197 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:44.639 on his health condition. I think we'll play that. Second, 198 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:48.159 I just mentioned it so you know where we're going. 199 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:53.000 The first one is I would say his clearest declaration 200 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:58.000 of faith in his entire you know, fifteen or ten 201 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:02.240 years of public note variety. To me, this was his 202 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:06.320 clearest declaration of faith. And I want you to really 203 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:08.360 hear what I'm saying, like this is the most clear 204 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:12.480 I've ever heard him be about his belief. And it's 205 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.639 not that clear. And guess who got it out of him? 206 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:18.440 Of course, our friend Alex O'Connor, like he really pressed 207 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.120 him and it was a little uncomfortable. And he also 208 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:24.200 pressed him into Dawkin's debate as the moderator, and he 209 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:28.279 like really forced him to make a commitment and he 210 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.039 did not want to. And so this is just a 211 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.240 short five minute clip of a much longer conversation where 212 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:39.080 he finally, you know, bent over the barrel, finally like 213 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:43.440 gives an answer kind of and so I mean, no, 214 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.000 it's an answer, but h so we're gonna play that. 215 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.279 Then we're going to play an update on his health. 216 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:53.159 The guys are pretty snarky. They clearly don't like Jordan Peterson. 217 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.399 It's just the most recent one I could find, and 218 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.279 I don't want to play his daughter's whole thing. I'd 219 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.159 rather play shorter clips that they have shorter clips. And 220 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:08.639 they comment and I don't think it's kind or charitable 221 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:12.960 to like mock or laugh at someone who's suffering. They 222 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.039 kind of do, okay, but we're just gonna play it 223 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.840 because it was actually reasonably good update the portions they 224 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:22.399 chopped up, and also you can kind of see both perspectives, 225 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:27.679 you know, I don't know. Then we're gonna play Uh, well, 226 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:29.960 let's just play clip and let me then we'll go, Well, 227 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.200 we don't need to do this big grand overview. It's 228 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.000 not a dissertation defense, so let's drip into it. This 229 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:38.600 is Alex O'Connor five minute clip asking Jordan Peterson. This 230 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:43.320 is the title of the video. Did Jesus in quotes? Actually? 231 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:48.440 Because Jordan likes to unpack the beginning of words like 232 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.320 what do you mean by the word actually? You know, 233 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.559 did Jesus actually exit his tomb? With Jordan Peterson? 234 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:56.799 I have no dog in this fight. I'm not a Christian, yeah, 235 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.799 but I know the lot of Christians are frustrated when 236 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:03.279 they begin asking about Jesus, who's a much more physical entity. 237 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.399 It's a real human being. It's someone flesh and blood. 238 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:10.080 It's someone who's physically crucified by there's a very different questions, 239 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:12.639 very different questions, and then and then is seen as 240 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:13.600 a physical endit. 241 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:18.600 Sorry, little context. Alex's point here is like Jordan's like 242 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.600 waxing poetically about you know, well, what does it really 243 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.399 mean for I'm just making this up, like to be 244 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:27.879 led out of Egypt? You know, maybe the pharaoh just 245 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.399 represents your life's burden. And to be led out of 246 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.799 Egypt just to follow your calling, you know what I mean, 247 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.000 Like he does. He's like, I'm doing a bad job 248 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:38.559 representing it. But if you've listened to him, you know 249 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:42.240 what I'm talking about. And Alex is like, oh, okay, okay, whatever, 250 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:43.759 you know, because Jordan will say, like, what do you 251 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.840 mean by true? I think it's truer than true. I 252 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:51.080 think these stories are like the a compression of all 253 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:55.679 of the stories in one one story that encompasses like 254 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.279 an archetypal echo through the time and space, you know. 255 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:03.879 And Alex is like, okay, fair enough. You know it's 256 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.559 very Jonathan Pagot Pego. You know, we've played him here. 257 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.640 They have a similar style. Alex is fair enough. I 258 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.240 don't think we can say that about Jesus. I don't 259 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.480 think you want to say that about Jesus because your 260 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.039 first of all, your audience would be very upset if 261 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.920 you're saying Jesus is like an idea just like no, 262 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.480 I mean, even even most atheists New Testament scholars that 263 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:29.880 he is a real person who was crucified, probably maybe 264 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:34.200 under conscious pilot, I would say, probably this is the 265 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.160 atheist New Testament, the best that I know their position is, 266 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.319 but I'm not sure there's people. You know, it's a spectrum. 267 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.400 But so you don't want to say about it about Jesus. 268 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:49.000 He's a real person who lived, Let's talk about him. 269 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.359 And Jordan's Jordan's squirming. You know, you just see this 270 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.200 reluctance to answer a question. 271 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:56.359 So let's get to it, at least according to the 272 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.960 to the canonical tradition by his disciples after he died. 273 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.759 So when somebody asks you, do you believe that that happened? 274 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:06.279 And when I've seen you at about that question, you 275 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.160 tend to still speak in terms of the psychological and 276 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.000 the mythological. I think the frustration is that, as you've 277 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:13.680 just said. 278 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.799 Frustrating Christians on that regard either because the truth of 279 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.319 the matter is, with regard to the Gospel accounts, that 280 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:27.480 the mythological and the historical are inextrictble inextricably cross contaminated. 281 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:31.240 So there's no pulling out the historical Jesus, right that 282 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:34.640 just that's that's a non starter. The and why that is, 283 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.960 I don't know. It's it's very it's very mysterious. It's 284 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:41.039 very hard to understand, as is are the let's say 285 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:43.599 the accounts of the resurrection. Okay, so what do I 286 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.519 think about that? Well, I don't I think that denying 287 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.240 the historical reality of Christ is I think that's just 288 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:51.720 a fool's Errand of course, why anybody would bother with. 289 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.119 So a man exists, cool Jesus, Yes, that money. 290 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:55.160 Now Christ. 291 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:58.559 Now there's a claim that that is attributed to Christ, 292 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:02.920 that he is the embodiment or the incarnation, the fulfillment, 293 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.839 let's say, of the prophet and the lass. 294 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:09.880 I think that's true. Yeah, what does that mean? Well, 295 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:12.359 you know what did? I think it's in the Gospel 296 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:12.759 of John. 297 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.319 I think Gospel of John closes with a statement that 298 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.519 something like if all the books that were ever written 299 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:19.960 were written about the Gospel accounts, that wouldn't be enough 300 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:24.119 books to explain what it happens as did Yeah, yeah. 301 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.440 And it's and it's there's a there's a truth in that. 302 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:27.519 The truth is that. 303 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:34.599 Profound religious account is bottomless, and the biblical representations are 304 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:38.359 like that, there's no limit to the amount of investigation 305 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:38.799 they can. 306 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:41.920 I do just want to add, this is kind of 307 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:46.480 a Catholic position. I've been really I'm not I'm not Catholic, 308 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:50.799 but I enjoy arguing. So so my friend who just 309 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.920 has like this this unbridled hatred of Catholicism, like it's 310 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:59.799 constantly blasting me with reels, you know, on Instagram. Never 311 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:02.680 did that when I was atheists, you know, and I'm again, 312 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.720 I'm not Catholic, but he just loves to hit me. 313 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:09.279 So I kind of adopt the position of like the 314 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.599 Catholic in the argument, you know, and this is sort 315 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:14.799 of a Catholic thing. It's like the Apostles sort of 316 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:17.960 insist like what's in this book is just a fraction 317 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:22.400 of what there is to write. And of course it 318 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.799 makes sense. I mean, they're they're with Jesus every day 319 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:29.920 all day, you know, journeying together, setting up camp together 320 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.480 for three years at least probably, and so yeah, I 321 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:39.160 mean the Gospel of Matthew is tiny. You can read 322 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.000 it in a couple hours, you know, and that's the 323 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:47.160 whole story of Jesus' three year ministry right there, and 324 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.400 then gets repeated in Mark and Luca Chean and so clearly, 325 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:55.240 and they you know, they even it's explicitly stated that 326 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:59.000 this is just like a snapshot. And so the Catholics 327 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:04.039 say like, well, okay, yeah, those apostles had apostles and 328 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:07.279 they share all of this stuff, and so there's a 329 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.319 lot of context you can gather from the first Christians, 330 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.119 like the early church fathers were apostles of apostles, or 331 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.839 apostles of apostle of apostles, or really, I should say 332 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:20.000 a disciple of an apostle. Anyway, an apostles just a 333 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.920 disciple that goes out into the world and spreads like gospels. 334 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.079 So so this is sort of a Catholic argument, which 335 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.240 is that this is why you need to be a 336 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:31.000 part of the you know, the one true, Holy Apostolic Church. 337 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:34.640 And I said, I wasn't gonna get into theology, but 338 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.640 but that point he's making is kind of suited. You 339 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:39.759 could just say you could just be a cat, like 340 00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:41.880 he could just say, I'm considering being Catholic. You know, 341 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.240 I guess that's a pretty big step. I don't know, 342 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:50.559 it's just it just strikes me as let's just how 343 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.559 about I just stop talking and we listened. 344 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.599 There not least because the text in itself is deeply 345 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.480 cross referenced, so there's like there's an innumerable number of 346 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.000 paths through it. It's like a chessboard, and so it's 347 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:07.720 it's inexhaustible in its interpretive space. 348 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:08.200 That's true. 349 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.240 And that's a problem too, because it means it's also 350 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.240 susceptible to multiple interpretations, including potentially competing. 351 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:17.359 Interpret I think a lot of people interpret pool, For example, 352 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:22.680 the earliest New Testament source as saying that if Jesus 353 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.200 did not literally arise from the dead, if there was 354 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.400 not a man who stopped breathing and then started breathing again, 355 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.640 then your faith is futile and you're still in your sins. 356 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:35.000 That is, Christianity is undermined. Now that means that Paul 357 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.960 doesn't say sort of believing that that's false is really bad. 358 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.880 He says, if you do not believe this proactively, then 359 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.720 your faith is If you don't proactively believe that yourself, 360 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.559 then I think when a Christian asks you, you know, 361 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:50.599 do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus? Are you 362 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:52.680 a Christian? I think you must be committed saying no, 363 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.880 at least under that interpretation of Paul. And even if 364 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:56.720 you're not sure, I mean. 365 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.200 It's the right answer from my perspective is yet no. 366 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.279 And so I'm really wrestling with this, you know, because 367 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.720 I agree that is the claim, and so it's it 368 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:11.240 really beggars belief, and it's hard for me to wrap 369 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:13.799 my rational mind about this happening. And of course I've 370 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:17.359 heard all these arguments about maybe why it isn't true, 371 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.519 and so like, yeah, I'm really just I'm trying, you know, 372 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:25.319 I'm in a good faith search for truth, but I 373 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:26.799 just I don't know. I don't know if you can 374 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:27.480 say that, we'll see. 375 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:29.440 Well, fine, if I say to you, do you think 376 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:31.559 that a man physically wrote from the dead, and you 377 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:33.359 say something like, well, I don't know. I mean, I 378 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.240 wasn't there, but I think it has a lot of 379 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.680 mythological significance, or I think that maybe it happened in 380 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:40.519 a different sense, or it happened in the sense that 381 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:41.720 good fiction happens. 382 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:42.039 You know. 383 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:44.000 It's then fine, but it needs to begin with that 384 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:47.240 caveat of the simple sort of historically speaking. I don't know, 385 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:49.039 and I know you don't like to pull out the history. 386 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:52.039 That's a good objection, that's an important question. So no, 387 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:55.839 of course it's a very good objection. So the So 388 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.720 I just did a seminar on the Gospels with crew 389 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:02.319 of about eight people and was the same crew that 390 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.200 walked through Exodus with me, with a couple of variations, 391 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.359 and we spend a lot of time on the resurrection accounts, 392 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.519 for example, and of course that was the toughest Let's 393 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:15.160 say that was the toughest morsel to chew and digest. 394 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.400 The thing about the resurrection accounts is that they're all Look. 395 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:22.720 So I could say something like this, which will just 396 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:27.480 annoy people, but it doesn't matter. I believe the accounts, 397 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.359 but I have no idea what they mean. When you 398 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:32.640 say you believe the accounts, do you mean And I 399 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:35.599 hate to be sort of yeah, pedantic here it seems pedantic, 400 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.359 But do you mean you believe that these are things 401 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:42.440