Speaker 1: Welcome to the Gods I View podcast. This is your host, Trevor.
Speaker 1: I'm excited about this show today a little different. We
Speaker 1: are going to be playing three clips that I think
Speaker 1: fit together kind of nice, and we will be talking
Speaker 1: about Jordan Peterson's health issues, what little we know about them,
Speaker 1: and some of the events leading up to that health issue,
Speaker 1: his public events, and some kind of drama that transpired.
Speaker 1: Why am I deciding to do this because to me,
Speaker 1: this is sort of gossip, you know, and we generally
Speaker 1: don't do gossip. Well two reasons. One is incredibly degenerate
Speaker 1: and selfish, and that's just his degenerate. The right word
Speaker 1: to degrade it, I guess is when I put a
Speaker 1: famous person's name in the title of an episode, I
Speaker 1: get five to ten times as much traffic. So that's
Speaker 1: that's the reason. One reason Two, I do sort of
Speaker 1: have like just like a caddy gossipy neighbor lady interest
Speaker 1: in the topic, you know, because Jordan Peterson is a
Speaker 1: is a is a big figure, and so he's a
Speaker 1: public figure, so he's certainly merit's discussion on a podcast,
Speaker 1: I'd say, and I said two reasons, but actually three
Speaker 1: I have been knee deep, waist deep, navel deep, collarbone
Speaker 1: deep in theological debates and discussion and books. I've been
Speaker 1: reading books, and I've just decided that I got out
Speaker 1: way over my and I believe that is an idiom.
Speaker 1: That means I was out of my debts. You know,
Speaker 1: I was on a black diamond, and I shouldn't have been.
Speaker 1: And it is just so deep and rich and nuanced,
Speaker 1: and so much of it is just arguing about what
Speaker 1: words mean. You know. It's kind of a critique of
Speaker 1: philosophy and theology that I just don't want to talk
Speaker 1: about it anymore. And I kind of want you to
Speaker 1: dismiss anything I've ever said, or at least listen with
Speaker 1: grace when you go back and listen, because man, you know,
Speaker 1: I've been watching all the camps. I've been seeing all
Speaker 1: the angles, and there's like interesting and fascinating arguments. And
Speaker 1: the history, oh my gosh. The history is just just
Speaker 1: the non religious history just well not non religious, but
Speaker 1: you know, not theological meaning like the history of the
Speaker 1: Roman Empire, you know, the history of ancient Israel. So
Speaker 1: it's just too much. I just don't know. I just
Speaker 1: it's one it's at Dunning Kruger effect. You know, google
Speaker 1: that if you want to see the graph. But there's
Speaker 1: like the chasm of ignorance, and you know, anyway, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm past the chasm of ignorance. I'm in the realization stage.
Speaker 1: That is just too much and I am underqualified. I
Speaker 1: probably will come back to it at some point, but
Speaker 1: for now, I just gotta take a little you know,
Speaker 1: I gotta sit with it. And so other kind of
Speaker 1: housekeeping things related to the show. I had some folks
Speaker 1: reach out about being co host or maybe just guest
Speaker 1: co host. Very cool. I hope to keep those conversations going.
Speaker 1: I've been a little crazy busy this week, so I'll
Speaker 1: get back to those folks. But I think that the
Speaker 1: show will go on in some form. You know, if
Speaker 1: I if I wanted to really do it, I would
Speaker 1: have to go YouTube. And I'm kind of bitter at
Speaker 1: YouTube the way they've handled, you know, censorship and what
Speaker 1: they've kind of done to podcasting. Podcasting used to be
Speaker 1: an RSS driven thing. That's the way Adam Curry invented it,
Speaker 1: and it was it's just a cool technology because it's
Speaker 1: sort of I mean, listen, no technology is like censorship
Speaker 1: proof obviously, but it was it was very I don't know,
Speaker 1: it was very hold on, my wife is texting me,
Speaker 1: doesn't she know? I'm recording podcasts the masses literally one hundred,
Speaker 1: although in this case sends Jordan Peterson's in the title
Speaker 1: hundreds of listeners. Okay, hold on, all right, sorry about that.
Speaker 1: This will be one of the first times I actually
Speaker 1: have to go back and edit the show to edit
Speaker 1: out that. A few minutes it was just gone. So
Speaker 1: what was I talking about? Oh, just a reluctant acceptance
Speaker 1: that to grow a podcast you probably also need to
Speaker 1: be a YouTuber. It's it's a weird thing for me
Speaker 1: to care about. I mean, to me, podcasting is audio.
Speaker 1: It's always been audio. It's RSS based. But now if
Speaker 1: you record yourself doing a podcast, that's a YouTube channel,
Speaker 1: you know, then, so that is where the list of
Speaker 1: the people are. But I mean, I can't really be
Speaker 1: a public I can't really be a public person, you know.
Speaker 1: I've got a got a job, and then I really
Speaker 1: have to sort of monitor what I'm saying. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm conflicted about it. Well, but for now, we're going
Speaker 1: to keep doing what we do. So all right, so
Speaker 1: let's get into this thing with Jordan Peterson. It is
Speaker 1: quite quite interesting actually, So I mean I think everyone
Speaker 1: knows who Jordan Peterson is if you don't know the detail,
Speaker 1: you know, he sort of rose to prominence as a
Speaker 1: I believe, a psychology professor at the University of Toronto
Speaker 1: who refused to sort of affirm pronouns, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like, if you want to call yourself whatever,
Speaker 1: that's fine, but you can't compel me to call you
Speaker 1: you know, X y Z. Now, I think if this
Speaker 1: were like a one off, you know, like let's just
Speaker 1: talk about the cultural the culture war for a second,
Speaker 1: something nice and non controversial, you know, like I told
Speaker 1: you this story about that person, you know. Yeah, Like
Speaker 1: my default is politeness and not hurting feelings, right, and
Speaker 1: so yeah, I'm actually kind of okay being compelled in
Speaker 1: like the in like these certain scenarios, right, but it
Speaker 1: has kind of it It kind of got a little
Speaker 1: out of control. I mean, politeness can be taken advantage of,
Speaker 1: you know, and so for something like that that does
Speaker 1: kind of seem like a social phenomenon. No offense, of course,
Speaker 1: I listen, there are legitimate, ambiguous external genitalia. I mean
Speaker 1: people can be born. There's all sorts of things that
Speaker 1: can happen. So like, I'm very open to the idea,
Speaker 1: and I would seek to empathize and accommodate. We're able.
Speaker 1: But you know, however, right like when one out of
Speaker 1: seven women are theyse and it is much more common,
Speaker 1: and you know in young women, which is like a
Speaker 1: very social young women are very what am I trying
Speaker 1: to say, but I mean I think we would say
Speaker 1: like social networks. I don't mean like digital social networks,
Speaker 1: but like friends are incredibly important to women, young women,
Speaker 1: especially relative to men. Obviously men need social support and
Speaker 1: friendship and stuff too, But some of these sort of
Speaker 1: social phenomenons they do seem to be bigger issues in women.
Speaker 1: Not all social phenomenon, but you know, like like cutting,
Speaker 1: for example, it was more of my generation's thing, right,
Speaker 1: this was a anorexia. Again, these things can all affect
Speaker 1: men as well, but these are just sort of social phenomenas.
Speaker 1: I just walked through a veritable minefield anyway, So it
Speaker 1: went too far. And I think, you know, say what
Speaker 1: you will about Jordan Peterson. I think he was an
Speaker 1: important figure during that time, you know, and wrote some books,
Speaker 1: very interesting guy to listen to. He has over recent
Speaker 1: years kind of become like increasingly I would say, I
Speaker 1: would say his openness. You know, he likes to talk
Speaker 1: about personality characteristics. You know, his conscientiousness and openness has
Speaker 1: been in like a precipitous free fall over the past
Speaker 1: couple of years. And I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, he works at the Daily Wire, there's new
Speaker 1: political dynamics going on with that. He has a recurring
Speaker 1: health issue related to a benzodiazepine drug addiction, and so
Speaker 1: this is a horrible thing and he almost apparently died
Speaker 1: once because of it in the past, something related to it.
Speaker 1: It seems as back again, and we'll get into that,
Speaker 1: and so you know, who knows. But one thing lately
Speaker 1: that he sort of developed a reputation for us his
Speaker 1: unwillingness to publicly state what his religious position is. And
Speaker 1: on the one hand, I really not only sympathize, but
Speaker 1: I would say empathize with that, because you know, I
Speaker 1: have a complex relationship with belief as well, you know,
Speaker 1: like many people, and so I don't necessarily like being
Speaker 1: on the put on the spot to sort of state
Speaker 1: what I think about everything. And in all that, but
Speaker 1: my the position I retreat to is generally like a
Speaker 1: position of like, yeah, I don't know, you know, there
Speaker 1: are certain things that I believe or I aspire to believe,
Speaker 1: Like I am affirmatively trying to believe as the evidence
Speaker 1: allows me, as my rational nature allows, as my you know,
Speaker 1: ability to suspend disbelief allows, you know. So, and I'm
Speaker 1: very conscious of that. I'm constantly thinking about confirmation bias,
Speaker 1: and so that would sort of be the position like
Speaker 1: if if someone demanded that I say something now. But
Speaker 1: here is the thing. There's two things that make that difficult.
Speaker 1: One is in like a debate context. Of course, you
Speaker 1: don't want to look stupid and that and pride can
Speaker 1: motivate you to double down on bad positions. But also,
Speaker 1: and I felt this personally, like with Christianity, it goes
Speaker 1: beyond pride, and you almost sort of feel responsibility to
Speaker 1: portray your position a certain way, to portray your faith
Speaker 1: a certain way. And so someone could be reluctant to
Speaker 1: just say I don't know, right, depending on the context
Speaker 1: of the conversation, you may not want to acknowledge a
Speaker 1: point or whatever. I maybe some of that's going on
Speaker 1: with Jordan I kind of suspect he's sort of built
Speaker 1: an image at somehow. I mean, it might not be
Speaker 1: his fault that he's developed this reputation. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: never affirmatively set it, but you know, he sort of
Speaker 1: developed a reputation as a Christian figure. Of course, he's
Speaker 1: never said that he's a Christian or that he believes
Speaker 1: set any of the core Christian tenants. He sort of
Speaker 1: has this like complex way of denouncing secularism, but as
Speaker 1: far as I know, he's never really proactively affirmed any
Speaker 1: of the core Christian tenants, which to me is fine.
Speaker 1: But I think he doesn't want to say it's because
Speaker 1: imagine if you know ninety percent of your audience is
Speaker 1: Christian and you're like, yeah, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: know what I believe. I guess that's that's actually an
Speaker 1: agnostic position that would that would put him in the
Speaker 1: same camp as Alex O'Connor, who's like the villain. You know.
Speaker 1: So I think it's not really just a desire to
Speaker 1: be a good portrayer of the Gospel message. It's not
Speaker 1: that as far as there's reluctance to say what he believes.
Speaker 1: It's not that he doesn't want to say he has doubts,
Speaker 1: which is I would say the situation I find myself
Speaker 1: in a lot. I don't want to publicly say that
Speaker 1: in like a debate context because you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: You just feel you'd feel responsible, Like what if someone
Speaker 1: loses their way because of something you say? Right, it's heavy,
Speaker 1: but I don't think it's necessarily that for him, although
Speaker 1: it could be if we wanted to be charitable. To me,
Speaker 1: it feels more like the kind of audience capture, total speculation.
Speaker 1: I don't know. So we're going to play three clips
Speaker 1: and let me kind of lay out a rational for
Speaker 1: why we're playing these three clips. One is an update
Speaker 1: on his health condition. I think we'll play that. Second,
Speaker 1: I just mentioned it so you know where we're going.
Speaker 1: The first one is I would say his clearest declaration
Speaker 1: of faith in his entire you know, fifteen or ten
Speaker 1: years of public note variety. To me, this was his
Speaker 1: clearest declaration of faith. And I want you to really
Speaker 1: hear what I'm saying, like this is the most clear
Speaker 1: I've ever heard him be about his belief. And it's
Speaker 1: not that clear. And guess who got it out of him?
Speaker 1: Of course, our friend Alex O'Connor, like he really pressed
Speaker 1: him and it was a little uncomfortable. And he also
Speaker 1: pressed him into Dawkin's debate as the moderator, and he
Speaker 1: like really forced him to make a commitment and he
Speaker 1: did not want to. And so this is just a
Speaker 1: short five minute clip of a much longer conversation where
Speaker 1: he finally, you know, bent over the barrel, finally like
Speaker 1: gives an answer kind of and so I mean, no,
Speaker 1: it's an answer, but h so we're gonna play that.
Speaker 1: Then we're going to play an update on his health.
Speaker 1: The guys are pretty snarky. They clearly don't like Jordan Peterson.
Speaker 1: It's just the most recent one I could find, and
Speaker 1: I don't want to play his daughter's whole thing. I'd
Speaker 1: rather play shorter clips that they have shorter clips. And
Speaker 1: they comment and I don't think it's kind or charitable
Speaker 1: to like mock or laugh at someone who's suffering. They
Speaker 1: kind of do, okay, but we're just gonna play it
Speaker 1: because it was actually reasonably good update the portions they
Speaker 1: chopped up, and also you can kind of see both perspectives,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. Then we're gonna play Uh, well,
Speaker 1: let's just play clip and let me then we'll go, Well,
Speaker 1: we don't need to do this big grand overview. It's
Speaker 1: not a dissertation defense, so let's drip into it. This
Speaker 1: is Alex O'Connor five minute clip asking Jordan Peterson. This
Speaker 1: is the title of the video. Did Jesus in quotes? Actually?
Speaker 1: Because Jordan likes to unpack the beginning of words like
Speaker 1: what do you mean by the word actually? You know,
Speaker 1: did Jesus actually exit his tomb? With Jordan Peterson?
Speaker 2: I have no dog in this fight. I'm not a Christian, yeah,
Speaker 2: but I know the lot of Christians are frustrated when
Speaker 2: they begin asking about Jesus, who's a much more physical entity.
Speaker 2: It's a real human being. It's someone flesh and blood.
Speaker 2: It's someone who's physically crucified by there's a very different questions,
Speaker 2: very different questions, and then and then is seen as
Speaker 2: a physical endit.
Speaker 1: Sorry, little context. Alex's point here is like Jordan's like
Speaker 1: waxing poetically about you know, well, what does it really
Speaker 1: mean for I'm just making this up, like to be
Speaker 1: led out of Egypt? You know, maybe the pharaoh just
Speaker 1: represents your life's burden. And to be led out of
Speaker 1: Egypt just to follow your calling, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like he does. He's like, I'm doing a bad job
Speaker 1: representing it. But if you've listened to him, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. And Alex is like, oh, okay, okay, whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, because Jordan will say, like, what do you
Speaker 1: mean by true? I think it's truer than true. I
Speaker 1: think these stories are like the a compression of all
Speaker 1: of the stories in one one story that encompasses like
Speaker 1: an archetypal echo through the time and space, you know.
Speaker 1: And Alex is like, okay, fair enough. You know it's
Speaker 1: very Jonathan Pagot Pego. You know, we've played him here.
Speaker 1: They have a similar style. Alex is fair enough. I
Speaker 1: don't think we can say that about Jesus. I don't
Speaker 1: think you want to say that about Jesus because your
Speaker 1: first of all, your audience would be very upset if
Speaker 1: you're saying Jesus is like an idea just like no,
Speaker 1: I mean, even even most atheists New Testament scholars that
Speaker 1: he is a real person who was crucified, probably maybe
Speaker 1: under conscious pilot, I would say, probably this is the
Speaker 1: atheist New Testament, the best that I know their position is,
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure there's people. You know, it's a spectrum.
Speaker 1: But so you don't want to say about it about Jesus.
Speaker 1: He's a real person who lived, Let's talk about him.
Speaker 1: And Jordan's Jordan's squirming. You know, you just see this
Speaker 1: reluctance to answer a question.
Speaker 2: So let's get to it, at least according to the
Speaker 2: to the canonical tradition by his disciples after he died.
Speaker 2: So when somebody asks you, do you believe that that happened?
Speaker 2: And when I've seen you at about that question, you
Speaker 2: tend to still speak in terms of the psychological and
Speaker 2: the mythological. I think the frustration is that, as you've
Speaker 2: just said.
Speaker 3: Frustrating Christians on that regard either because the truth of
Speaker 3: the matter is, with regard to the Gospel accounts, that
Speaker 3: the mythological and the historical are inextrictble inextricably cross contaminated.
Speaker 3: So there's no pulling out the historical Jesus, right that
Speaker 3: just that's that's a non starter. The and why that is,
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's it's very it's very mysterious. It's
Speaker 3: very hard to understand, as is are the let's say
Speaker 3: the accounts of the resurrection. Okay, so what do I
Speaker 3: think about that? Well, I don't I think that denying
Speaker 3: the historical reality of Christ is I think that's just
Speaker 3: a fool's Errand of course, why anybody would bother with.
Speaker 2: So a man exists, cool Jesus, Yes, that money.
Speaker 4: Now Christ.
Speaker 3: Now there's a claim that that is attributed to Christ,
Speaker 3: that he is the embodiment or the incarnation, the fulfillment,
Speaker 3: let's say, of the prophet and the lass.
Speaker 4: I think that's true. Yeah, what does that mean? Well,
Speaker 4: you know what did? I think it's in the Gospel
Speaker 4: of John.
Speaker 3: I think Gospel of John closes with a statement that
Speaker 3: something like if all the books that were ever written
Speaker 3: were written about the Gospel accounts, that wouldn't be enough
Speaker 3: books to explain what it happens as did Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: And it's and it's there's a there's a truth in that.
Speaker 4: The truth is that.
Speaker 3: Profound religious account is bottomless, and the biblical representations are
Speaker 3: like that, there's no limit to the amount of investigation
Speaker 3: they can.
Speaker 1: I do just want to add, this is kind of
Speaker 1: a Catholic position. I've been really I'm not I'm not Catholic,
Speaker 1: but I enjoy arguing. So so my friend who just
Speaker 1: has like this this unbridled hatred of Catholicism, like it's
Speaker 1: constantly blasting me with reels, you know, on Instagram. Never
Speaker 1: did that when I was atheists, you know, and I'm again,
Speaker 1: I'm not Catholic, but he just loves to hit me.
Speaker 1: So I kind of adopt the position of like the
Speaker 1: Catholic in the argument, you know, and this is sort
Speaker 1: of a Catholic thing. It's like the Apostles sort of
Speaker 1: insist like what's in this book is just a fraction
Speaker 1: of what there is to write. And of course it
Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, they're they're with Jesus every day
Speaker 1: all day, you know, journeying together, setting up camp together
Speaker 1: for three years at least probably, and so yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean the Gospel of Matthew is tiny. You can read
Speaker 1: it in a couple hours, you know, and that's the
Speaker 1: whole story of Jesus' three year ministry right there, and
Speaker 1: then gets repeated in Mark and Luca Chean and so clearly,
Speaker 1: and they you know, they even it's explicitly stated that
Speaker 1: this is just like a snapshot. And so the Catholics
Speaker 1: say like, well, okay, yeah, those apostles had apostles and
Speaker 1: they share all of this stuff, and so there's a
Speaker 1: lot of context you can gather from the first Christians,
Speaker 1: like the early church fathers were apostles of apostles, or
Speaker 1: apostles of apostle of apostles, or really, I should say
Speaker 1: a disciple of an apostle. Anyway, an apostles just a
Speaker 1: disciple that goes out into the world and spreads like gospels.
Speaker 1: So so this is sort of a Catholic argument, which
Speaker 1: is that this is why you need to be a
Speaker 1: part of the you know, the one true, Holy Apostolic Church.
Speaker 1: And I said, I wasn't gonna get into theology, but
Speaker 1: but that point he's making is kind of suited. You
Speaker 1: could just say you could just be a cat, like
Speaker 1: he could just say, I'm considering being Catholic. You know,
Speaker 1: I guess that's a pretty big step. I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's just it just strikes me as let's just how
Speaker 1: about I just stop talking and we listened.
Speaker 3: There not least because the text in itself is deeply
Speaker 3: cross referenced, so there's like there's an innumerable number of
Speaker 3: paths through it. It's like a chessboard, and so it's
Speaker 3: it's inexhaustible in its interpretive space.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 3: And that's a problem too, because it means it's also
Speaker 3: susceptible to multiple interpretations, including potentially competing.
Speaker 2: Interpret I think a lot of people interpret pool, For example,
Speaker 2: the earliest New Testament source as saying that if Jesus
Speaker 2: did not literally arise from the dead, if there was
Speaker 2: not a man who stopped breathing and then started breathing again,
Speaker 2: then your faith is futile and you're still in your sins.
Speaker 2: That is, Christianity is undermined. Now that means that Paul
Speaker 2: doesn't say sort of believing that that's false is really bad.
Speaker 2: He says, if you do not believe this proactively, then
Speaker 2: your faith is If you don't proactively believe that yourself,
Speaker 2: then I think when a Christian asks you, you know,
Speaker 2: do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus? Are you
Speaker 2: a Christian? I think you must be committed saying no,
Speaker 2: at least under that interpretation of Paul. And even if
Speaker 2: you're not sure, I mean.
Speaker 1: It's the right answer from my perspective is yet no.
Speaker 1: And so I'm really wrestling with this, you know, because
Speaker 1: I agree that is the claim, and so it's it
Speaker 1: really beggars belief, and it's hard for me to wrap
Speaker 1: my rational mind about this happening. And of course I've
Speaker 1: heard all these arguments about maybe why it isn't true,
Speaker 1: and so like, yeah, I'm really just I'm trying, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm in a good faith search for truth, but I
Speaker 1: just I don't know. I don't know if you can
Speaker 1: say that, we'll see.
Speaker 2: Well, fine, if I say to you, do you think
Speaker 2: that a man physically wrote from the dead, and you
Speaker 2: say something like, well, I don't know. I mean, I
Speaker 2: wasn't there, but I think it has a lot of
Speaker 2: mythological significance, or I think that maybe it happened in
Speaker 2: a different sense, or it happened in the sense that
Speaker 2: good fiction happens.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's then fine, but it needs to begin with that
Speaker 2: caveat of the simple sort of historically speaking. I don't know,
Speaker 2: and I know you don't like to pull out the history.
Speaker 2: That's a good objection, that's an important question. So no,
Speaker 2: of course it's a very good objection. So the So
Speaker 2: I just did a seminar on the Gospels with crew
Speaker 2: of about eight people and was the same crew that
Speaker 2: walked through Exodus with me, with a couple of variations,
Speaker 2: and we spend a lot of time on the resurrection accounts,
Speaker 2: for example, and of course that was the toughest Let's
Speaker 2: say that was the toughest morsel to chew and digest.
Speaker 2: The thing about the resurrection accounts is that they're all Look.
Speaker 2: So I could say something like this, which will just
Speaker 2: annoy people, but it doesn't matter. I believe the accounts,
Speaker 2: but I have no idea what they mean. When you
Speaker 2: say you believe the accounts, do you mean And I
Speaker 2: hate to be sort of yeah, pedantic here it seems pedantic,
Speaker 2: But do you mean you believe that these are things
Speaker 2: that happened such that if they didn't like that. Let
Speaker 2: me put it this way. If I went back in
Speaker 2: time with a Panasonic video camera and put that camera
Speaker 2: in front of the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, would
Speaker 2: the little LCD screen show a man walk out of
Speaker 2: that team?
Speaker 1: This is how to you gotta be man. This is
Speaker 1: the moment of truth. A decade of public speaking, no
Speaker 1: one has ever pinned Jordan Peterson down this much, And
Speaker 1: to his credit, he actually kind of gives an answer.
Speaker 1: Now he immediately tries to walk him back, but to
Speaker 1: his credit, he does. And so I just want to
Speaker 1: be clear. The reason I'm playing this is because this
Speaker 1: is the most clear he's ever been in my opinion.
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, send me a video. If I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: I'll correct myself. But I've never personally seen him state
Speaker 1: his belief any clearer than this. So just a reminder.
Speaker 1: The question is, if I had a time machine, I
Speaker 1: go back in time to thirty or thirty three a
Speaker 1: d We're not sure which, and I set up a
Speaker 1: camera in the tomb or outside of the tomb, you know,
Speaker 1: on Sunday, does an angel roll that stone open and
Speaker 1: does a man walk out of that tomb alive of
Speaker 1: his own power? What say you, Jordan.
Speaker 4: Peterson, I would say suspect yes.
Speaker 2: So that that is that to me seems like a
Speaker 2: belief in the historical event of the resurrection, or at
Speaker 2: least of Jesus leaving the tomb, which means that when
Speaker 2: somebody says, you know, do you believe that Jesus rose
Speaker 2: from the dead, it doesn't seem clear to me why
Speaker 2: I'm not able to just say it would seem to me.
Speaker 3: Yes, because I have no idea what that means, and
Speaker 3: neither did the people who saw it.
Speaker 1: And we're back. So I mean, listen, it's fair. It's
Speaker 1: when dealing with the mysteries of the cosmos, it's fair.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, clearly, I'm not the first person
Speaker 1: to feel this way. This is a common thing.
Speaker 5: It is just.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know why it's off putting,
Speaker 1: but it is a little off putting to me, even
Speaker 1: me as someone who wrestles and struggles with a lot
Speaker 1: of doubt and who has been a lifelong atheist until recently.
Speaker 1: And I oscillate, you know, I read, I read there's
Speaker 1: a pet you know. I read the passage in Matthew
Speaker 1: about the Saint in the earthquake, cracking all the time,
Speaker 1: tombs open, and the Holy Ones walking into Jerusalem. I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not sure I can believe that happened,
Speaker 1: you know, Like that just for me, like kind of
Speaker 1: goes too far. Someone would have someone there should would
Speaker 1: be an extra biblical source of this, you know. And
Speaker 1: I strut with it, and then so I think, well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's the only gospel that mentions that it
Speaker 1: is possible. These are flawed human beings. Things get in there.
Speaker 1: I don't know, But then that sort of undermines other things,
Speaker 1: and then you start thinking, well, you know, maybe it
Speaker 1: could have happened in a way that is not particularly
Speaker 1: earth shattering. I mean, we're talking about supernatural events. These
Speaker 1: could be people that didn't know anyone. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's tough listen, so some I think some
Speaker 1: of that is worth just submitting. You know, Now, if
Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson was like an evangelical Christian apologist, like I
Speaker 1: wouldn't expect him to admit that, you know, but we're
Speaker 1: just asking him, like, what do you do you believe? Now?
Speaker 1: I think my answer would be listen, I wrestle with
Speaker 1: a lot of the details. I do think that obviously
Speaker 1: Jesus was real historical person. His teachings to me strike
Speaker 1: me as like it's kind of difficult for me to
Speaker 1: accept that this is a man that's just to me
Speaker 1: like this. I mean, it's possible, you know, that he
Speaker 1: is just an invention of the Aescene Brotherhood and they
Speaker 1: just somehow managed to craft this tale about like the
Speaker 1: most morally perfect man like his like today morally perfect
Speaker 1: that's what's interesting and so back then would have been
Speaker 1: extremely outrageous and scandalous and so and then for this
Speaker 1: to come from a man we know what's crucified. Then
Speaker 1: of course ours there's physical potential, physical evidence. You know,
Speaker 1: it makes it makes people roll their eyes, but you know,
Speaker 1: shroud to turn that kind of stuff. And uh, and
Speaker 1: of course I've talked at length about that. You can
Speaker 1: go back and listen. But to me it's it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of difficult for me to accept now, but it
Speaker 1: could have been. But if you had Gun in my head,
Speaker 1: what do you believe? I'm gonna say, I think I
Speaker 1: think it's probably real. I don't necessarily think the Bible
Speaker 1: is an errant. You know, this is a sola scripture
Speaker 1: of you. I don't necessarily think that, I would say,
Speaker 1: I cert I almost certainly don't think that because even
Speaker 1: I mean not any ofay, we don't have to get
Speaker 1: into contradictions and stuff. But I don't necessarily think it's
Speaker 1: an errant. But I do think this is true. And
Speaker 1: so gun in my head, do I accept the core
Speaker 1: teachings of sort of like the mere merre Christianity, like
Speaker 1: the minimum things you need to accept to sort of
Speaker 1: like you vaguely call yourself a Christian. I would say yes,
Speaker 1: so I don't know. It's tough for him to do that.
Speaker 1: You know, that doesn't have to be your answer. Your
Speaker 1: answer can be I don't know, but he won't say
Speaker 1: I don't know. So anyway, I don't know if this
Speaker 1: is interesting to anybody. I just anyway. So I give
Speaker 1: you that preamble. Because two things happened. He did an event,
Speaker 1: a debate, it's called Jubilee surrounded, very adversarial, and it
Speaker 1: kind of was bizarre and it went badly for him.
Speaker 1: We'll play a clip from that later. He did a
Speaker 1: couple more interviews after that, and then he disappeared from
Speaker 1: the public spotlight. And apparently it's having like incredibly serious
Speaker 1: health issues. The health issues are kind of weird, so
Speaker 1: but they're not they're not outside the like what I
Speaker 1: would call the realm of possibility. And so here's just
Speaker 1: a little bit of a this is twenty two minutes.
Speaker 1: There's no way we'll listen to this whole thing. But
Speaker 1: let's just these guys are rude. I'm just going to
Speaker 1: preface they're kind of rude, salty coating the gurus.
Speaker 6: It's a bigger guru, Matt one, Jordan Peterson, whose absence
Speaker 6: has been noted. You felt a disturbance in the force.
Speaker 6: You've been saying, where's his tips? I wonder what Jordan
Speaker 6: thinks about this?
Speaker 7: Well, I was curious to find out.
Speaker 8: And I saw that Mikaela Peterson had a forty minute
Speaker 8: discussion on that, and I got ten seconds in and
Speaker 8: realized that I didn't need to know that much.
Speaker 1: But you can let me know.
Speaker 7: It's fairly predictable. It's fairly predictable.
Speaker 6: I think it might have been twenty minutes, but however
Speaker 6: long it was, it was too long. And she was
Speaker 6: teasing this for quite a while. You know, I'm going
Speaker 6: to give a health update on that, and blah blah
Speaker 6: blah blah blah. And the last help update to remind you, Matt,
Speaker 6: was that they had localized what the issue was. Toxic
Speaker 6: mold potentially infused by demon energy targeting.
Speaker 8: You don't want, you don't want, you don't want demonically
Speaker 8: infused toxic mold.
Speaker 1: That sounds it's actually kind of fun. I mean, I said,
Speaker 1: they're jerk. It's you know, you're talking about a sick person.
Speaker 1: You're trying to be respectful, right, But but yeah, this
Speaker 1: is based on, like I guess, some statements by family
Speaker 1: members kind of suggesting they felt like there was a
Speaker 1: spiritual element to this. I don't know, you know, so
Speaker 1: they're kind of making, you know, making light of that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the claim is that it's it's a mold.
Speaker 5: You don't want that.
Speaker 6: No, that is the latest of the long line of
Speaker 6: differential pandosis that Jordan Peterson and Mikaila I went on
Speaker 6: there famously.
Speaker 1: She I like the use of differential diagnosis. I wonder
Speaker 1: if these guys are clinicians. That's a very clinical word.
Speaker 6: I like it to rush over Siberia and hot doctors
Speaker 6: put them in an induced which they reported give him
Speaker 6: bre and damage, but he managed to recover after like
Speaker 6: a year and a half or so. This time he's
Speaker 6: not been put in and then inter's coma. But it
Speaker 6: does sound like he's having a tough time. So here's
Speaker 6: Mikila updating some stuff.
Speaker 9: Before I get into it, let me be super clear.
Speaker 9: Dad has not been on a psych medication since January
Speaker 9: twenty twenty. This recent flare up of neurological symptoms wasn't
Speaker 9: due to new medications. That's partly why we had no
Speaker 9: idea what was going on for about six months. We
Speaker 9: went to specialists, obviously, and it was misdiagnosed repeatedly, which
Speaker 9: is super common. Then he got pneumonia and sepsis, and
Speaker 9: obviously that's a whole thing to recover from two and dangerous.
Speaker 9: You know, this year's just been terrible. This recent flare
Speaker 9: up that started last August was likely due to the
Speaker 9: stress of both of his parents, my grandparents dying last year,
Speaker 9: moving countries, selling his home, and mold exposures, which was
Speaker 9: enough to trigger a recurrence of neurological symptoms like what
Speaker 9: he experienced in twenty twenty twenty twenty one, something we
Speaker 9: obviously didn't think was possible after five and a half
Speaker 9: years away from these psych medications. But I've talked to
Speaker 9: psychiatrists who say they have patients that experience what experienced this.
Speaker 9: This has been unbelievably hard on my family. Every day
Speaker 9: for the last year.
Speaker 5: Has been hell.
Speaker 7: They go.
Speaker 6: So the long story short is that it is the
Speaker 6: side effects of the psych medications from five years ago
Speaker 6: that have been brought back to the fore because of
Speaker 6: the toxic mold, distressful family situations and the moving country
Speaker 6: stress of moving to America.
Speaker 8: There you go, okay, okay, well, good to have that update.
Speaker 7: Oh wait, you're not away, nice nice.
Speaker 5: Tiald Okay, Well you need to know more, you.
Speaker 7: Need a little bit more.
Speaker 6: So, first of all, you will note there that you
Speaker 6: know they went the specialists and misdiagnosed.
Speaker 7: That's such a problem.
Speaker 6: The Peter sens constantly yes, ceiling with experts feeling them.
Speaker 5: I will admit I.
Speaker 1: Don't like, you know, mocking the infirmed, but these guys
Speaker 1: are kind of funny. I don't know, hopefully that's not
Speaker 1: offensive it I have mixed feelings.
Speaker 8: Much like Eric Weinstein goes to ioies and doesn't like
Speaker 8: the response that he gets from them. Some people will
Speaker 8: go to specialists and repeatedly not get the diagnosis that
Speaker 8: they're looking for. But did they eventually get one that
Speaker 8: they preferred?
Speaker 6: Well, let's hear so, first of all, a little bit
Speaker 6: more about the doctors that feel them. It's like the
Speaker 6: follow tad speech and not to the liars.
Speaker 9: The problem this year likely was that because we didn't
Speaker 9: know stress and mold, exposure of stress really too could
Speaker 9: retrigger old neurological injuries. It was misdiagnosed a bunch and
Speaker 9: then medications and supplements that were used by a few
Speaker 9: of the doctors in hospitals worse than symptoms enough that
Speaker 9: it got to the point where we were like, oh,
Speaker 9: we know what akathesia is. Oh no, So now that
Speaker 9: we know what it is and have proper doctors, it
Speaker 9: can it can be carefully healed again like it has before,
Speaker 9: and it is. You can, so thank God for that.
Speaker 9: It's just horrifying and it's so infuriating that these sensitivities,
Speaker 9: this damage that can cause severe symptoms like this can
Speaker 9: last for so long after stopping psychmeds and then apparently
Speaker 9: be retriggered there again.
Speaker 6: Matt, you hear some of the difficult symptoms that are
Speaker 6: being faced, but also na as it's often the case
Speaker 6: they find a new bunch of doctors and treatments and
Speaker 6: this one is the actual correct one. The other ones
Speaker 6: were basically quacks and Charlatan's right, but this set are
Speaker 6: on the ball akathesia.
Speaker 1: Chris, do you have a definition for me? What is that?
Speaker 6: A definition for akathesia. It's a psychological symptom, a movement
Speaker 6: disorder which is characterized by intense subjective feelings of inner
Speaker 6: restlessness and compulsion to move, like, you know, feeling just
Speaker 6: constantly on edge and itchy or whatever the case might be. Right,
Speaker 6: it's a deeply unpleasant thing I believe to suffer from mine.
Speaker 6: She goes into very lurid, long, lengthy descriptions about, you know,
Speaker 6: the extent of the suffering. It's very common by Jordan
Speaker 6: Peterson has done this many many times before when he
Speaker 6: is describing anything he's enduring.
Speaker 8: It's always like the absolutely cinnacle of suffering. Yeah, and
Speaker 8: it's almost certainly totally true, right, I mean, probably the
Speaker 8: reality is that he is a somewhat frail, elderly man
Speaker 8: at this point who has had very experimental and serious
Speaker 8: interventions done on him in response to a pretty serious addiction.
Speaker 8: And you know, so it's not hard to understand that
Speaker 8: there would be stuff going on with him that is
Speaker 8: not good. Yeah, I doubt that they preferred diagnosis is
Speaker 8: better than any other one. Like, I don't don't know
Speaker 8: if it's a toxic model or not. I mean, it's
Speaker 8: probably just frailty, isn't it.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, Jordan Peterson does have a bunch. I'm
Speaker 6: no clinical psychologists mat as you know, but he does
Speaker 6: have a bunch of scigns about like religious mania and
Speaker 6: delusions of grandeur and so on, and he has been
Speaker 6: diagnosed by their own report I think at least on
Speaker 6: two occasions as having schizophrenia in Canada.
Speaker 1: I would maybe push back a little bit on this part,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I don't know, does he really
Speaker 1: have a diagnosis of schizophrenia. That's hard for me to believe,
Speaker 1: you know, or is this you know, I don't know
Speaker 1: how Canadian health system works. But if someone just go
Speaker 1: on TV and say he looks schizophrenic, religious mania, I
Speaker 1: don't think that's fair. No delusions of grandeur, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's hard. I think it's probably hard to get
Speaker 1: this famous and not develop some issues. You know. This
Speaker 1: is why I'm so happy at our humble one hundred listeners.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get famous. I have a fear
Speaker 1: of success, actually, and I'm not afraid of it. I
Speaker 1: wear it like a badge of honor. This is this
Speaker 1: is right where I want to be. As long as
Speaker 1: I could bay my bills. I'm happy, you know. I
Speaker 1: have a almost zen contentment with my lot in life.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I maybe but I don't know, it seems
Speaker 1: kind of mean. It seems kind of don't kick a
Speaker 1: guy when he's down, called schizophrenic and has religious mania.
Speaker 1: I don't that seems to go too far.
Speaker 6: Which is not something that people willing really for around
Speaker 6: diagnosis mofe. So yeah, So, I mean, I have no
Speaker 6: idea what is actually a coming dart, but that Jordan
Speaker 6: Peterson has severe or psychological issues.
Speaker 7: I think it is absolutely obvious.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Also, his entire family has a vitany at least all
Speaker 6: the ones in the public eye. The ones that aren'ted
Speaker 6: the public eye don't seem to report the same level
Speaker 6: of issues, right, But his wife and his daughter also
Speaker 6: have a long list of health issues, and some of
Speaker 6: them are like very well documented real things, like his
Speaker 6: wife was diagnosed with cancer which he was luckily able
Speaker 6: to treat with chemotherapy and so on and overcome. But
Speaker 6: other ones are much more like they claim they're treating
Speaker 6: it with their very restrictive diets and so on. Then
Speaker 6: let me actually just play a clip that relates to that.
Speaker 9: I was so unaware that stopping lexipro could cause these
Speaker 9: symptoms that I thought it was my autoimmune disorder. Somehow
Speaker 9: or sudden extreme food sensitivities because I had limited my
Speaker 9: diet to a paleo keto diet, which obviously doesn't make
Speaker 9: any sense. You don't cut things out and then when
Speaker 9: you reintroduce them, you hallucinate like that's not a thing
Speaker 9: that happens. The main thing that flared up my neurological
Speaker 9: injury were foods and preservatives in foods, and then for Dad,
Speaker 9: his symptoms when when they got really bad years ago
Speaker 9: and more recently, were more severe than that. We're not
Speaker 9: on an all meat diet for fun. We're on an
Speaker 9: all meat diet because we've been left with extremely long
Speaker 9: lasting sensitivities and neurological injuries from these medications. And Dad's
Speaker 9: more sensitive than me, maybe because he was older or
Speaker 9: on has has aries longer, and because because of the
Speaker 9: clonazepam for sure. So that's a brief description of my
Speaker 9: experience with acathesia and psychmed withdrawal. It lasted two and
Speaker 9: a half years for me, and it only started to
Speaker 9: go away when I switched from the paleo dairy free
Speaker 9: keto diet to only eating meat.
Speaker 8: Doesn't paint a very healthy picture, does it of the
Speaker 8: situation of the entire family.
Speaker 6: You remember when we covered Mikila, like her podcast was, I.
Speaker 1: Think we'll wrap up there. I will say, you know,
Speaker 1: I think Kala is trying to kind of offer a
Speaker 1: nuanced explanation, which is that there's sort of an interaction
Speaker 1: between diet and medications, which is possible. But listen, psychological
Speaker 1: psychiatric medication can really mess you up. And so of course,
Speaker 1: like this is not medical advice. You know, this is
Speaker 1: absolutely not medical advice. I'm not a psychiatrist. Just you know,
Speaker 1: take a look at the research, which you could even
Speaker 1: argue is maybe a little skewed, because you know, there's
Speaker 1: potential incentives to not report, you know, to not dedicate
Speaker 1: your life to studying the side effects of profitable medications.
Speaker 1: You know, I'd like to believe that when they're discovered,
Speaker 1: they're reported. That's kind of I actually kind of do
Speaker 1: believe that. But there's not like huge incentive to try
Speaker 1: to discover that drugs aren'tsafe. But anyway, they're not always safe,
Speaker 1: and that's an understatement. You know, antipsychotics, benzodie as it
Speaker 1: beans in general.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's.
Speaker 1: Crazy that we used to prescribe those the way we
Speaker 1: did and we still do, but there's a lot more knowledge.
Speaker 1: I remember, I got valume, I got my wisdom teeth
Speaker 1: taken out, and the surgeon like was really into anesthesia,
Speaker 1: so before he gave me like their normal anesthesia, he
Speaker 1: just dosed me with the mega valume. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. You know, I don't know what heroin
Speaker 1: is like, but it's got to be like this, you know,
Speaker 1: because if I had this button at home, if I
Speaker 1: could push this button and feel this way at home,
Speaker 1: like I'd be pushing it a lot. And so that
Speaker 1: was like that kind of scared me a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm like, thank goodness, my mom had a little value
Speaker 1: issues it a little red wine and valume issues, so
Speaker 1: it felt like I got some insight into that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you can very easily die once you stop
Speaker 1: taking them, and they're incredibly addictive and contrary to sort
Speaker 1: of their giggling, I mean, there are many reports of
Speaker 1: like like almost like LSD echoes, you know, like we're
Speaker 1: ten years later, you'll have neurological flare ups and the
Speaker 1: symptoms are very similar to what Jordan Peterson is describing.
Speaker 1: So in my opinion, the mold thing. I mean, it
Speaker 1: sounds like he's he had a very serious drug addiction,
Speaker 1: to very powerful drugs, and uh and maybe you know,
Speaker 1: maybe there's some kind of connection to mold or stress.
Speaker 1: Stress sounds more likely to me personally, but causing the
Speaker 1: sort of flare up which sounds incredibly painful. I mean,
Speaker 1: he has like uncontrolled tremors. It sounds like, which is
Speaker 1: a symptom of benzodiazepine withdrawal that has been reported ten
Speaker 1: years later, So it's definitely possible. I think he was
Speaker 1: also taking adavan or laurasivam as the generic name. I
Speaker 1: took like a heroic dose. I won't give too many details.
Speaker 1: I don't want to accidentally imply that it is something illegal,
Speaker 1: because of course I didn't. But I'm terrified of flying,
Speaker 1: and so I of course legally acquired and was prescribed
Speaker 1: by a medical professional these this medication, and I I
Speaker 1: it was from my honeymoon. I'm terrified to fly. Flew
Speaker 1: to my friend's wedding in Florida and kind of made it,
Speaker 1: but it reminded me of how much I hated flying.
Speaker 1: So then from from Florida to Cancun, which is where
Speaker 1: we went to on our honeymoon. I took one like
Speaker 1: an hour before the plane ride. I didn't feel anything.
Speaker 1: I took another, I took another. I took like the
Speaker 1: whole I took so much and I never really felt anything.
Speaker 1: So that must have been some weird I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about that drug, so maybe it.
Speaker 1: But but it is the bends that diazepen, you know.
Speaker 1: So those are my two bends that diazepine experiences, and
Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson's been on those and much more, much more
Speaker 1: than that. I think it was on anti psychonics, which
Speaker 1: is like you're just going into the brain and turning knobs.
Speaker 1: It is. It's way more art than science that I
Speaker 1: hesitate to call it an art. It is like you're
Speaker 1: you're flicking levers, you're unplugging and replugging in. You know
Speaker 1: you're doing. It's like it's you, you're trying to get
Speaker 1: your computer to work. It's your boomer, your boomer grandma
Speaker 1: or mom trying to get the internet to open. Is
Speaker 1: what this is. You're just like banging buttons, just shot
Speaker 1: in the dark, and it can really screw you up.
Speaker 1: So I do kind of agree with their point though,
Speaker 1: that's probably what this is it's not maybe not as
Speaker 1: much diet and stuff, but who knows. Anyway, the discontinues,
Speaker 1: We're done, but they play a clip of Jonathan Pago
Speaker 1: and I didn't watch the whole thing, but they sort
Speaker 1: of are implying that he is making a claim that
Speaker 1: God and the quote was maybe pinning him against the
Speaker 1: wall end quote, sort of as like punishment for his
Speaker 1: ambiguity about Christianity and his reluctance. So I'll need to
Speaker 1: watch the whole clip because it's kind of hard for
Speaker 1: me to believe Pago would say that. But you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people do feel that way about Jordan Peterson.
Speaker 1: A lot of his followers really don't understand. And you know,
Speaker 1: that's just kind of a bed Jordan Peterson made for himself.
Speaker 1: You know, you can be a conservative atheist, it's allowed.
Speaker 1: You know, you can be a gay conservative. You can
Speaker 1: be an atheist conservative. So I mean, you can be
Speaker 1: an atheist conservative who's interested in theology, like these are
Speaker 1: all options available to you. Is just I think people
Speaker 1: do just want to like, hey, what do you think?
Speaker 1: And they would like a straight answer occasionally, you know,
Speaker 1: is that all right? I mean you could say his
Speaker 1: face is none of your business. And I would normally agree,
Speaker 1: except number one, he's a public figure and number two,
Speaker 1: he's a He's a public figure constantly talking about Christianity,
Speaker 1: So to just say like, hey, do you believe this
Speaker 1: stuff or do you just think it's interesting? Like, I
Speaker 1: don't know. All right, this episode's kind of going on,
Speaker 1: but I do want to play his last one of
Speaker 1: his last appearances because when I read the comments section
Speaker 1: of that last video, it's first of all, very unfairly
Speaker 1: critical number one. Number two, a lot of people said
Speaker 1: it's not the Benzos, it's Jubilee. So the claim was
Speaker 1: he had this like horrible. I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: how bad it really was. We'll listen to it, but
Speaker 1: he had this kind of rough experience. While there's sort
Speaker 1: of a lot of political pressure. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: daily wire hate out there, you know, justified or unjustified,
Speaker 1: and I think you know there are right wing political
Speaker 1: divide right now, so that's got to be stressful. And
Speaker 1: he has this bad showing that's got to be stressful.
Speaker 1: He's dealing with psychological issues obviously, so this could also
Speaker 1: explain the flirup. So let's listen. This is Trent Horn interviewing.
Speaker 1: In the title of the video is the atheist who
Speaker 1: in quotes broke Jordan Peterson. There's no like logical place
Speaker 1: to start the clip, so the first few seconds might
Speaker 1: not make sense.
Speaker 10: Talk about that later in the interview, because I found
Speaker 10: that fascinating. I always find it interesting atheists who study theology. Frankly,
Speaker 10: there's a fair number of theologians that I think are
Speaker 10: actually just atheists, but they enjoy the subject and they
Speaker 10: still like getting a paycheck. Frankly, of course, there are
Speaker 10: many great theologians who are also very fervent believers. But yeah,
Speaker 10: I always find it interesting when they are atheists who
Speaker 10: just have an interest in the theology stuff which can
Speaker 10: which can actually make sense.
Speaker 5: We'll talk about that here in a second.
Speaker 10: So you're doing that, and then you you ended up
Speaker 10: going on Jubilee for Surren So Jubilee for people who
Speaker 10: haven't seen these things, and I've I've talked about them
Speaker 10: in my previous episode how debates became dumb because I
Speaker 10: don't particularly enjoy the format, but I see its usefulness
Speaker 10: and getting a lot of views. So Jubilee will do
Speaker 10: these surrounded episodes for people who aren't familiar with them.
Speaker 10: You get ten twenty people around one person, and people
Speaker 10: rush to a chair and they get like three minutes
Speaker 10: to debate the guy until everybody else in the other
Speaker 10: chairs votes them out. And so you were there. You
Speaker 10: you were invited under a particular pretense of debating of
Speaker 10: atheists debating a Christian and then things went a little askew.
Speaker 5: Why don't you fill.
Speaker 1: Us little context to just sort of make the case
Speaker 1: because this guy, this guy was an absolute jerk in
Speaker 1: the video. Let's like, let's just admit it. He was
Speaker 1: a jerk, right, But I mean these things, these Jubilee
Speaker 1: surrounded things, they can catapult a career. You know, like
Speaker 1: this is like the next American idol, you know, gen Z.
Speaker 1: It's like, you get on here if you if you
Speaker 1: like own Jordan Peterson or whoever. They don't even know
Speaker 1: who they're debating ahead of time, so if you but
Speaker 1: it's gonna be somebody famous, right if you own some
Speaker 1: famous Christian apologist, which is who they think they're debating,
Speaker 1: a famous Christian apologist, that can like launch a YouTube
Speaker 1: channel career, You do interviews, you know, you start going
Speaker 1: on Pierce More again. Blah blah, blah. So people prepare
Speaker 1: for this. They like study, you know, they study the
Speaker 1: debate tactics and you know, and they're all pretty young,
Speaker 1: so they generally don't do that good of a job.
Speaker 1: But it's a big deal. And so they're told you
Speaker 1: will to be debating a Christian apologist. Jordan Peterson shows up.
Speaker 1: He's a Christian. You know, most people sort of assume
Speaker 1: he's a Christian political guy. So he fits the bill,
Speaker 1: let's do it. And so this is the premise for
Speaker 1: the for the debate.
Speaker 5: Then on kind of your side the inside of this,
Speaker 5: what happened?
Speaker 11: Yeah, well, before I do something about the format of
Speaker 11: Jubilee under quick comment about that, Yeah, I was sort
Speaker 11: of the same. I had the same attitude. I thought
Speaker 11: Jubilee was a terrible format for debate. Okay, sort of
Speaker 11: changed my mind about Jubilee, and because I think that
Speaker 11: it got a lot of people interested in topics that
Speaker 11: they would not otherwise discuss, Like my dad for example. Yeah,
Speaker 11: started looking into more of the kind of debates the
Speaker 11: philosophy of religion, you know, that kind of thing. And
Speaker 11: if Jubilee didn't like kind of it's like a conversation starter.
Speaker 11: I agree with you that you know, as far as
Speaker 11: making progress, there's probably none there right then and there.
Speaker 11: But it's interesting how it brings up topics that people
Speaker 11: now now, people like you know are now have a just.
Speaker 10: Talking to talk about, right Yeah, And I and I
Speaker 10: can see the utility there. And I think debates in
Speaker 10: general can't really solve these complex issues, but they serve
Speaker 10: a useful purpose in helping people get interested in the
Speaker 10: subject and then dive deeper into it. So that's why
Speaker 10: I still appreciate a debate that's good faith and people
Speaker 10: actually get from both sides really learned from it, and
Speaker 10: not just one person using debate tricks on another person.
Speaker 5: I cannot stand.
Speaker 10: That, and so I worry though in the Juwbilie format,
Speaker 10: it's just really so hyper concentrated. It turns into rhetoric
Speaker 10: and debate tricks. But I have seen some good interactions.
Speaker 10: I actually met the gentleman who was for the vegan
Speaker 10: debate that I think that they recently had, and I
Speaker 10: think they had just very you know, it was very
Speaker 10: cordial interactions. Doesn't have to be a bunch of tricks.
Speaker 10: But yeah, so I think though it's an interesting format.
Speaker 10: I mean, i'd be open to it. We'll see what
Speaker 10: happens in the future. How did you how'd you get
Speaker 10: into it? And what was the story there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they invited me.
Speaker 11: A friend sort of said hey, you should probably invite
Speaker 11: this person, and then that's what they did, and I accepted.
Speaker 11: They did say it was one Christian versus twenty Atheist.
Speaker 11: The story goes that Jordan Peterson didn't and or his
Speaker 11: team didn't get that memo. But there's and he says,
Speaker 11: now that you know, that was never brought to attention. However,
Speaker 11: I and many others recall before they started filming, they
Speaker 11: announced welcome to One Christian versus twenty Atheists, and I
Speaker 11: remember Jordan Peterson giggled and said, hah, some people don't
Speaker 11: think I am. So he did know the title or
Speaker 11: the pro the title of the video. Now I don't
Speaker 11: think he's lying. I actually, you know, there's a part
Speaker 11: of our clip where where when I ask him what
Speaker 11: kind of you.
Speaker 7: Know what video?
Speaker 4: Do you know where you're where you are?
Speaker 11: What the title of the video or something like that,
Speaker 11: he looks down and tries to read what the title?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 11: Wait, like, you know we're here for Jordan Peterson, Peterson
Speaker 11: versus twenty eighteists and it didn't say that, Oh right.
Speaker 1: There was something on there's something on his desk, and
Speaker 1: I went back and checked that, and that's one percent true.
Speaker 1: I mean Jordan Peterson goes to like correct him, like
Speaker 1: I know, I know good and well where I am
Speaker 1: I'm at, and he put kind of looks down at
Speaker 1: the paper. He doesn't say this, but it's I think
Speaker 1: this is a fair characterization. He looks down at the
Speaker 1: paper and he like wants to start reading it, and
Speaker 1: it says one, you know, one Christian versus twenty eight Theists,
Speaker 1: and so he stops himself. And so listen, who cares?
Speaker 1: You know, but when you make mistakes the way you
Speaker 1: the way you handle it, the way you rebound, it
Speaker 1: says a lot about your your you in your current
Speaker 1: mental state, and personally, I think people should be extended
Speaker 1: forgiveness and empathy and grace in those situations, which is
Speaker 1: why I don't ever want to do a debate. But
Speaker 1: that's not what happened in front of him.
Speaker 11: Yeah, he was that piece of paper and he looked
Speaker 11: down to verify Okay, okay, look no this is not
Speaker 11: I'm not supposed to be So he might he might
Speaker 11: have been confused.
Speaker 1: He was.
Speaker 2: I think he was confused.
Speaker 11: Now that's compatible with being you know, negligent or or
Speaker 11: sort of you know, sort of absent minded. But so
Speaker 11: I don't think he's lying about you know, I think
Speaker 11: I think he is confused. However, given that they announced
Speaker 11: it beforehand, yeah all right, you know, I would probably
Speaker 11: place a little bit of blame on him unless he
Speaker 11: went on the George Jenkos okay, yeah, yeah and blamed
Speaker 11: Jubilee almost completely. I think that's that was unfair in
Speaker 11: my opinion, given my experience there. But yeah, everybody was
Speaker 11: under the impression it was one. They had just done
Speaker 11: the one Atheist versus twenty Christians, right, yeah, Alex, right,
Speaker 11: so everything is in line with doing the one Christian
Speaker 11: versus twenty eight.
Speaker 10: Yeah, because I had heard from other people who were there.
Speaker 10: You don't know who it's going to be. You're debating.
Speaker 10: You just show up, and people were speculating who it might.
Speaker 1: It really sucks because you get Alex O'Connor as the
Speaker 1: one atheist. He's probably the best guy to do it,
Speaker 1: you know. And then the Christians we feeled Jordan Peterson
Speaker 1: like a guy who won't even admit to being Christia.
Speaker 1: It just to me it was kind of I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe was that by design or it.
Speaker 10: Does be Is it going to be this this Christian
Speaker 10: apologist or that Christian apologist and trying to like prep
Speaker 10: because you don't know who it's going to be, and
Speaker 10: then it turns out to be Jordan Peterson. So and
Speaker 10: that led to this moment, which went pretty viral on
Speaker 10: the internet. So I'm going to play it for our
Speaker 10: listeners now and then we can we can chat more
Speaker 10: about that.
Speaker 4: Are you familiar with their doctrines? Somewhat?
Speaker 11: Okay, you're you're familiar. How do they regard how do
Speaker 11: they regard Mary? Why are you asking me because you're
Speaker 11: a Christian? You say that I haven't claimed that.
Speaker 5: Oh what is this?
Speaker 4: Is this a Christians versus atheist?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: You don't know where you are right now.
Speaker 11: Don't be a smart ass? Well, and I mean you're
Speaker 11: if you're a smart ass. Oh, either you're a Christian
Speaker 11: or you're not. Which one is it?
Speaker 4: I could be either of them.
Speaker 1: But I don't have to take you.
Speaker 7: You don't have to tell me.
Speaker 11: I was under the impression I was invited to talk
Speaker 11: to a Christian. Am I not talking to a Christian?
Speaker 4: No, you were invited to.
Speaker 11: I think everyone should look at the title of the
Speaker 11: YouTube channel. You're probably in the wrong YouTube video.
Speaker 4: You're really quite something.
Speaker 1: You are, aren't I?
Speaker 11: But you're really quite nothing right, You're not a Christian.
Speaker 1: I'm done with him.
Speaker 11: I was that's quite to burn. There quite a spectacle.
Speaker 11: When I first watched that. I was like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 11: I mean, and then I being too aggressive. I didn't
Speaker 11: know how it would come across to other people.
Speaker 10: But you were, I mean, you were genuinely surprised, and
Speaker 10: I would be. And this is something that while I
Speaker 10: appreciate some of Jordan Peterson's insights, that has been a
Speaker 10: perennial complaint of mind and a lot of people, the
Speaker 10: ambiguity of discussing important issues that while I agree, like
Speaker 10: like talking about the question does God exist? Yeah, if
Speaker 10: the word God needs something radically different between two people,
Speaker 10: you should probably clarify what you mean by that word first.
Speaker 10: But if it becomes we can't know what any words mean,
Speaker 10: what does this mean?
Speaker 5: What does that mean? Have I told you this or not?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 10: It becomes frustrating. So were you having just like kind
Speaker 10: of a genuine sense of frustration and trying to engage him.
Speaker 11: So so I think this is around the between the
Speaker 11: forty five to fifty minute mark, maybe fifty three minutes.
Speaker 10: This was the third prompt, and we can talk about
Speaker 10: the prompt bics. I wanted to see where you were
Speaker 10: going because brought Catholic stuff and that interests me. His
Speaker 10: prompt and in Jubilee they give four debate prompts. The
Speaker 10: central guy gives his was everybody worships something. So that's
Speaker 10: where the context is what we were discussing with.
Speaker 11: Right, But I had to sit through the first fifty
Speaker 11: minutes of that recording, right, and a lot of the
Speaker 11: way that he was, the stuff he was saying, the
Speaker 11: way he was treating people, it was like I was
Speaker 11: like getting charged where I was like getting more and
Speaker 11: more frustrated listening to all their previous interactions, Like in
Speaker 11: the first interaction.
Speaker 2: I think it was a friend of mine named Kad
Speaker 2: like he was OK.
Speaker 5: Yes, the other guests of the show.
Speaker 11: Yes, there was like a point where he was like
Speaker 11: he just snapped at him for no good reason. Some
Speaker 11: of the interactions with Parker, like you know, with the
Speaker 11: I think the line to the Nazis one, I was
Speaker 11: just like so annoyed, and it carried over to the
Speaker 11: into our interaction. So it was left over frustration from
Speaker 11: the other conversations that led me to become more disposed
Speaker 11: to to for that kind of behavior. But yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 11: but so going back to your original question, Yeah, there
Speaker 11: there was also the frustration that he was sort of like,
Speaker 11: I hear you, it's your definition, what's your definition of worship?
Speaker 11: And then I felt like there was a sort of
Speaker 11: changing going on. And there was a few times where
Speaker 11: he interrupted me, but that was no big deal. Well,
Speaker 11: you people interrupt each other in debates.
Speaker 10: Yeah, that seal right, But yeah, but I think it
Speaker 10: was just kind of an odd like, if I were
Speaker 10: to go in there as the Christian engaging for atheists,
Speaker 10: that's not a prompt that I would necessarily choose. I
Speaker 10: don't really care. Like everybody worships something, what does that mean?
Speaker 5: I mean?
Speaker 10: To me as a Catholic, I would say, worship means
Speaker 10: giving something, it's worthship, And so I agreed.
Speaker 1: With Okay, I think we'll just wrap up. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so he just kind of made the reason he was
Speaker 1: going this direction is because one of the prompts is
Speaker 1: atheists also worship things, and so you know, he kind
Speaker 1: of felt like this was sort of a rage baity title,
Speaker 1: you know, or topic design to inflame, and so he
Speaker 1: was just saying like, like, you know, what do you
Speaker 1: think about Catholics? Do you think they have different degrees
Speaker 1: of worship for different things? And yeah, they have a
Speaker 1: different degree of worship for saints, have words for it.
Speaker 1: I don't know that, but there's a type of worship
Speaker 1: that only God merits. But then there's also you can
Speaker 1: show reverence or worship to marry into the saints, and
Speaker 1: there's this hierarchy, right, And so he was going to say,
Speaker 1: like you allowed that, like you don't criticize that. Why
Speaker 1: can't atheists sort of have something like that where they
Speaker 1: have something that is like worship but you know it's
Speaker 1: like a type of humanism or something, and why can't
Speaker 1: that just be okay? You know, like what if we
Speaker 1: just grant the point? Now, that's not what he said,
Speaker 1: and maybe he was going to get a little bit
Speaker 1: more respectful. He was very aggressive, but it just revealed
Speaker 1: this like fundamental I think flaw in the character that
Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson has built. And I don't say that like
Speaker 1: to be too critical of him. And you know, even
Speaker 1: like I, sometimes I change day to day on things,
Speaker 1: so like I'm not I don't necessarily have like a stable,
Speaker 1: a perfectly stable identity. And if he really has been
Speaker 1: diagnosed with schizophrenia, then he really doesn't have a stable identity, right,
Speaker 1: But generally is like a public figure in this space,
Speaker 1: you got to you kind of, I don't know, you
Speaker 1: gotta kind of be a little bit got it sort of.
Speaker 1: He does seem like he's living out a very like
Speaker 1: neurotic episode in his life publicly, which is rough, and
Speaker 1: so I feel for him, but you know, you at
Speaker 1: some point you can't just say I've made millions of
Speaker 1: dollars and maybe I'll just chill out a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, just kind of maybe not throw myself into
Speaker 1: the lions dead as it were. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this was interesting. I like to
Speaker 1: believe it's not political, even though Jordan Peterson is sort
Speaker 1: of a kind of political commentator. Definitely not kind of
Speaker 1: he is a political commentator, but he's more than that obviously.
Speaker 1: You know, he's he's a great writer. I think he's
Speaker 1: an important I think we'll sort of be like an
Speaker 1: important historical figure. You know, he's kind of like a
Speaker 1: Canadian martyr, right like he's being sort of I'm speaking
Speaker 1: for him, right like, sort of being like unjustly persecuted
Speaker 1: getting this clinical license take in a way. But you know,
Speaker 1: on this particular issue. Yeah, just I think I think
Speaker 1: you can have too fragmented of an identity, you know,
Speaker 1: I wrestle with that, and so I think I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I think the public eye is very tough,
Speaker 1: and when your identity is sort of fragmented, it's rough.
Speaker 1: And if you're not positioning yourself as like an open
Speaker 1: minded truth seeker who's really trying to figure it out
Speaker 1: and doesn't know what they believe, you know, if you're
Speaker 1: positioning yourself as like an authority figure on you know,
Speaker 1: Christian topics, right, then it gets a little it gets
Speaker 1: a little weird. Man, I gets a little dicey. So
Speaker 1: I'm not totally surprised that this happened. This has been
Speaker 1: like an ongoing commentary about Jordan Peterson in the space.
Speaker 1: But I wish him well and I hope he recovers,
Speaker 1: and I hope his family recovers. Listen, man, we're all
Speaker 1: in this together, We're all down here in the dirt together.
Speaker 1: There is like a insane lack of empathy, and there
Speaker 1: is real evil out there too, So like, if you
Speaker 1: want to get worked up about something, there is actual,
Speaker 1: honest to god evil. So stuff like this, I think
Speaker 1: it's best to really just view with charity. And so
Speaker 1: even though I've kind of gossiped and stuff for the
Speaker 1: last what hour or whatever, I do think that's probably
Speaker 1: a good message. Also, you know, psychiatric drugs are a
Speaker 1: hell of a thing to dabble it, you know, so
Speaker 1: I would just really encourage you to be your own
Speaker 1: advocate if you are in the psychiatric health care machine.
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you to stop taking it, like seriously,
Speaker 1: not medical advice, but if you're not yet on anything,
Speaker 1: just like do like do you I hate to say this,
Speaker 1: but like do your own research, get multiple opinions, you know,
Speaker 1: especially if you are having hesitancy. Hesitancy because you know,
Speaker 1: life is really hard and so I mean if you're depressed,
Speaker 1: for example, I would ask yourself if you have good
Speaker 1: reason to be like ives your life is really bad,
Speaker 1: Like are you struggling with health issues? Did you get dumped?
Speaker 1: Did you get fired, Like it's kind of normal to
Speaker 1: feel depressed when that happens, and so that's not necessarily
Speaker 1: doesn't necessitate a medical intervention, you know. I think the
Speaker 1: first line and should be like, I just got to
Speaker 1: get my life back on track. You know, That's that's
Speaker 1: what you gotta do. You shouldn't say you shouldn't just
Speaker 1: be like, I'm never going to be able to get
Speaker 1: my life on track. Therefore I have a disease and
Speaker 1: I need to be medicated. I don't know. That's my
Speaker 1: personal opinion. I know people are very defensive about this.
Speaker 1: I generally try not to talk about it because people
Speaker 1: get very like, I've seen it. You know, I've seen it.
Speaker 1: I've got plenty of friends on lexibro. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not singling out that drug. It's just a very common,
Speaker 1: commonly prescribed drug. So yeah, this is not personal, Like
Speaker 1: I'm not directing it at you. I imagine there are
Speaker 1: many people who need more serotonin in their synapses or whatever,
Speaker 1: but I will point out it's just also just a
Speaker 1: lot more complicated than that. Like I think there's this idea,
Speaker 1: like this media and fired idea of like, oh, there's
Speaker 1: these chemicals that make you feel good, and if I
Speaker 1: just had more of them, you know, it's like, well,
Speaker 1: it's not really how it works. You know. Our brain
Speaker 1: is not like a flimsily designed object that that is
Speaker 1: just constantly breaking down and doing things without reason. You know.
Speaker 1: It's not an old It's not an old Uh, what's
Speaker 1: an unreliable car? I don't know. It's not an old
Speaker 1: Jaguar that constantly needs to be tinkered with. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes like you're you feel a way for a reason,
Speaker 1: you know, so now listen. Obviously, if you're having like
Speaker 1: serious you know, I've talking about like suicidal ideation and stuff.
Speaker 1: Of course, just in general, I'm going to My advice
Speaker 1: is to seek health, you know, the opinion of a
Speaker 1: healthcare professional. But that said, I don't know, I have
Speaker 1: a really deep concern. It's like an issue that I
Speaker 1: do care deeply about. Like it's not normal to numb
Speaker 1: a society to emotion. I mean, this is what many
Speaker 1: of these drugs do. Crazy side effects. I mean you
Speaker 1: can lose sexual function for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: And uh, and that's that sure doesn't seem like it
Speaker 1: would help someone struggling with the case of the blues.
Speaker 1: You know, and I'm not saying that's what depression is.
Speaker 1: But if you just if if if you if the
Speaker 1: person you love left you or died, or you lost
Speaker 1: your identity because you lost your job, Like that's a
Speaker 1: legitimate reason to be deeply sad and potentially depressed. And
Speaker 1: so you got to figure that out. And so I
Speaker 1: do think there is like a tendency to want to
Speaker 1: numb it. It's like a painkiller. You know, you have
Speaker 1: chronic pain. You want to take a drug, but man,
Speaker 1: if you take if you take time every day for
Speaker 1: the rest of your life, you're going to get liver failure.
Speaker 1: You know, well you'll be an increased risk of liver issues.
Speaker 1: Let's say that. So anyway, and also, you know, just
Speaker 1: just be aware, like if you go to a carburetor
Speaker 1: repair man with car issues, I mean, your chances of
Speaker 1: the issue being carburetor related increases greatly, you know, you do.
Speaker 5: You know what I'm saying, Like.
Speaker 1: You invite a window a window guy over to your
Speaker 1: house and you really need plumbing. You know, he's probably
Speaker 1: not going to try to fix your plumbing. He's going
Speaker 1: to try to fix your windows, you know, So there's
Speaker 1: sort of a bias there's an expertise bias. If you
Speaker 1: go to a guy and the only treatment he had, Like,
Speaker 1: think about this, The only intervention at a psychiatris's fingertips
Speaker 1: is to prescribe you with medications antipsychotics, antidepressants, and so like,
Speaker 1: what are you expecting to be? Like, what are you
Speaker 1: expecting the outcome to be? You know, like, this is
Speaker 1: the one this is the one lever they have. There's
Speaker 1: no other lever for them to to pull. And it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe they won't pull that lever. But then but then
Speaker 1: they didn't do anything. They didn't address the issue. You know,
Speaker 1: they're trained to treat symptoms as physicians should be, you know,
Speaker 1: So I just be aware of the biases, be an
Speaker 1: advocate for yourself. This is a long episode. All right,
Speaker 1: let's wrap up. Please email me at God's I view
Speaker 1: book at gmail dot com. Feel free to tell me
Speaker 1: where I'm wrong. Listen, I don't need any emails about
Speaker 1: saying why you're on lexapro. Like, dude, life is a
Speaker 1: frickin minefield. Okay, so if you're on lexapro, maybe you
Speaker 1: should be. I mean, I have no opinions, so please
Speaker 1: don't email me that, Like I have opinions about you specifically. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is just a broad commentary on society, and you
Speaker 1: know what, maybe it just is. Okay, if you're really
Speaker 1: going through hell to numb it a little bit, maybe
Speaker 1: that's Maybe that's good, that that's there. I'm just saying
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be like a first line defense against real problems. Okay,
Speaker 1: email me at God's I viewbook at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from you, guys. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: the emails. That's what keeps me going, honestly, so please
Speaker 1: reach out. Please recommend show topics, paste links you know
Speaker 1: of cool videos, articles. I get that stuff from you
Speaker 1: guys all the time. I love it. We have a
Speaker 1: great guest coming up looking at like Francis Bacon and
Speaker 1: Shakespeare and very cool, actually very cool. So I'm very
Speaker 1: excited about that. Until next time, everybody, stay safe out there,
Speaker 1: try to stay happy if you can, and God bless