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<v Speaker 1>NetRocks dot com. Hey guess what it's dot net Rocks

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<v Speaker 1>episode nineteen hundred and seventy eight. I'm Carl Franklin and

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<v Speaker 1>am Richard Camp and Richard, you're a down under?

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<v Speaker 2>I am?

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<v Speaker 1>I am.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the last week of the month long tour

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<v Speaker 2>with the grand baby. And you know, the whole idea was,

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<v Speaker 2>while she's not moving around too much, just a little package,

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<v Speaker 2>it'll be a good time to take her and show

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<v Speaker 2>her off to the extended family. Of course, in this

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<v Speaker 2>time she's learned to crawl, so now she's a toddler

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<v Speaker 2>and starting to get bumps and bruises. Just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>remember that time your kids get all.

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<v Speaker 1>Your baby get gets all banged up. That's happening. How

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<v Speaker 1>cool is that? It's been really fun. The only thing

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<v Speaker 1>she might regret is not being able to remember any

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<v Speaker 1>of it's the best part.

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<v Speaker 2>Right when she's twelve years old, like you've already been

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<v Speaker 2>to Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she won't remember the trauma of being dropped on

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<v Speaker 1>her head on the plane, you know, nothing like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we've got a few more days left. I'm actually

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<v Speaker 2>up near Brisbane.

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<v Speaker 1>We're in the.

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<v Speaker 2>Gold Coast, an area called kulan Gata, right by the beach.

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<v Speaker 2>It's beautiful here. I love the Gold Coast boys.

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<v Speaker 1>It hot holy man. Yeah, all right, So let's start

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<v Speaker 1>right off with the year nineteen seventy eight, right, dude,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you got? Well, some of the major events.

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<v Speaker 1>Harvey Milk was elected the first openly gay person elected

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<v Speaker 1>the public office in California, so you know, things are

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<v Speaker 1>becoming a little more socially liberal. The Jonestown massacre on

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<v Speaker 1>November eighteenth was terrible, crazy. We're nine hundred members of

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<v Speaker 1>the People's Temple died in a mass suicide murder in Jonestown, Guyana,

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<v Speaker 1>orchestrated by Jimmy Jones in the good News Camp David Accords.

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<v Speaker 1>In September, President Jimmy Carter facilitated a peace agreement between

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<v Speaker 1>Israel and Egypt. There were some air flight crashes Air

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<v Speaker 1>India Flight eight fifty five Boeing seven forty seven coasts

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<v Speaker 1>crashed off the coast of Bombay. Two hundred and thirteen

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<v Speaker 1>people perished. The northeastern US blizzard of nineteen seventy eight.

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<v Speaker 1>You weren't around for this, Richard, because I was on

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<v Speaker 1>the West coast territory. Do you remember it? I do

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<v Speaker 1>I remember it? So I would have been ten eleven, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And we had the day off from school and there

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<v Speaker 1>was literally four and a half five feet of snow

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<v Speaker 1>right packed up against the door, wow, and all over.

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<v Speaker 1>And so my brother and our friend Todd, and I

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<v Speaker 1>and Chris Conrandy from down the street, we set up

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<v Speaker 1>out to make Skylab, which is what they called it.

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<v Speaker 1>Just this huge edifice of snow with snowballs could roll

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<v Speaker 1>down and around and everything. We just had a great time,

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<v Speaker 1>all right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sure, And this is right right when Skylab was

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<v Speaker 2>going to about to re enter, right, they'd love it

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<v Speaker 2>the next year, yep.

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<v Speaker 1>So we were hip little kids even then. The FIFA

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<v Speaker 1>World Cup nineteen seventy eight FIFA World Cup was held

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<v Speaker 1>in Argentina, with the host nation winning the tournament. Garfield

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<v Speaker 1>debuted in the comic strip World Jim Davis made its

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<v Speaker 1>first appearance in nineteen seventy eight films Grease, National Lampoon's

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<v Speaker 1>Animal House. Of course, those were great. In science, you

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<v Speaker 1>can talk about these things. You'll probably talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>first human cloning claims.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, well I'm not going to talk a lot

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<v Speaker 2>about it, but yes, that's when those experiments going on.

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<v Speaker 1>Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to Anwar Sadat and monocom

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<v Speaker 1>Big and for their efforts in the Camp David Accords.

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<v Speaker 1>So what was happening in computing in space.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's do the space stuff first. Last year and seventy seven,

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<v Speaker 2>the Shuttle Enterprise was deployed and they were doing their

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<v Speaker 2>first captive tests and landing tests. In seventy eight, they

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<v Speaker 2>fly the Enterprise by seven forty seven to Alabama going

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<v Speaker 2>to do vibration testing for launching. There was the intent

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<v Speaker 2>to actually fly Enterprise into space at that time, although,

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<v Speaker 2>as we'll find out a couple of years later further on,

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<v Speaker 2>there's so many changes that happened from all these tests

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<v Speaker 2>that it's too expensive to retrofit Enterprise to be a

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<v Speaker 2>flable vehicle. And they'll take an earlier test Article STA

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<v Speaker 2>zero nine to nine and that'll and refit in and

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<v Speaker 2>it'll become challenger. Otherwise, in space, there was Venus missions

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy eight, both American and so the Pioneer

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<v Speaker 2>Venus project launched in May, arise in December. This is

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<v Speaker 2>the orbiter, so it actually goes into orbit around Venus

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<v Speaker 2>and actually operated until nineteen ninety two doing measurements and

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<v Speaker 2>so forth. But there was a second part to it

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<v Speaker 2>called the multi Probe, which actually launched later in August,

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<v Speaker 2>but arrived earlier because it didn't need to go into orbit,

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<v Speaker 2>so it used a higher energy trajectory to get there.

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<v Speaker 1>What did we not know about Venus that we felt

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<v Speaker 1>we needed to know by sending those probes.

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<v Speaker 2>We I mean, we didn't have We didn't know the

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<v Speaker 2>composition of the atmosphere. We didn't know it all the

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<v Speaker 2>way down. That's why putting the landers down to measure

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<v Speaker 2>as you went down, we were just trying to figure

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<v Speaker 2>out what was going on there, Like even understanding how

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<v Speaker 2>hot it was took time. You know, the the blanket

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<v Speaker 2>effects of CO two weren't well known yet, so this

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<v Speaker 2>was part of you know, the CO two absorbs in

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<v Speaker 2>for red light and so that's why it'll concentrate heat.

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<v Speaker 2>But also this is like it's down on the surface there,

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<v Speaker 2>like what can we see? And so there was a

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<v Speaker 2>whole series of missions. They kept going like this is

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<v Speaker 2>even the end of it. So on the American side

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<v Speaker 2>they put down this multiprobe actually had four probes on it,

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<v Speaker 2>a big one that was about seven hundred pounds, called

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<v Speaker 2>the Large Probe, cleverly named, and then three small probes

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<v Speaker 2>that were all about two hundred pounds. The big one

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<v Speaker 2>had a parachute, so it was more like the Venera landers.

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<v Speaker 2>It transmitted information for an hour as it was descending

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<v Speaker 2>through the atmosphere, but as soon as it impacted the

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<v Speaker 2>surface it stopped transmitting. The three small probes were just

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<v Speaker 2>arrow shells. They had no parachutes or anything, so they

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<v Speaker 2>were free falling granted through a very thick atmosphere. And

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<v Speaker 2>one of them, the one they called Day because it

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<v Speaker 2>landed on the Day side, Venus continued to function. It

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<v Speaker 2>survived the landing and transmitted for over an hour from

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<v Speaker 2>the surface.

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<v Speaker 1>So that means there was some kind of solid surface and.

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<v Speaker 2>Without it there is right, it's mostly old volcanic flows.

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<v Speaker 2>The Venia missions this were eleven and twelve. So the

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<v Speaker 2>Soviets flew to Venus many, many times, and they will continue.

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<v Speaker 2>They'll be a thirteen oh fourteen. And so both of

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<v Speaker 2>an air missions went off flawlessly. They both landed on

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<v Speaker 2>Venus cleanly. Eleven transmitted for ninety five minutes, twelve transmitted

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<v Speaker 2>for one hundred and ten. And I'd like to point

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<v Speaker 2>out it's not that they only lasted that long. It's

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<v Speaker 2>that their transmitters are only so strong, and so the

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<v Speaker 2>orbiter has to relay the data back to Earth.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, and it goes.

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<v Speaker 2>Out of range after about an hour and a half,

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<v Speaker 2>I see, and then nothing can pick it up anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>although generally speaking within it within twenty four hours or

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<v Speaker 2>so forth, things are broken from the pressure of the

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<v Speaker 2>heat and the amount of sulfuric acid in the atmosphere.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there is that little detail, little detail.

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<v Speaker 2>This is also the year that Sharon, the moon of Pluto,

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<v Speaker 2>is identified by some astronomers just looking at it with telescopes.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the moon is massive, of course, it's about almost

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<v Speaker 2>an eighth the size of Pluto itself, so really really big,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course not great resolutions. We wouldn't get a

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<v Speaker 2>good picture of Sharon until the new Horizon spacecraft gets

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<v Speaker 2>there in twenty fifteen. Science wise, the RSA algorithms that's RIVS,

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<v Speaker 2>Shamir and Aldeman is publicly described in nineteen seventy eight.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's craz I think we still depend on.

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<v Speaker 1>To this day. Still is it to this day? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>And speaking of computing, this is a crazy year for computing.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is the introduction of Microsoft's Altair Basic.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, nineteen seventy seven was when the Altar came out,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's now it's fully released.

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<v Speaker 1>Bill Gates through OUTE that right, Yeah, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>The Apple two distrive, the five and a quarter drive

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<v Speaker 2>gets released for the Apple two and they start making

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<v Speaker 2>the twoe. The Intel eighty eighty.

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<v Speaker 3>Six processor kind of an important one, yeah, kind of important.

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<v Speaker 3>The sixteenth and sixteenth definitive sixteen bit processor. Yeah, here's

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<v Speaker 3>when you don't know the Intel twenty eight to sixteen.

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<v Speaker 3>Twenty eight sixteen the first electronically reirasable and reprogrammable ROM.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>So up until then when you when we finally made ROM,

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<v Speaker 2>they had to be erased by UV light, so you

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<v Speaker 2>would take the chip out of the computer, you would

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<v Speaker 2>shine a bright UV light on it to erase it,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you'd reprogram it and put it back in

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<v Speaker 2>the machine. This was an electronically reprogrammable one E PROM Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The first e proms. Carter also brought the first computer

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<v Speaker 2>into the White House, was in HB three thousand, the

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<v Speaker 2>introduction of laser disc Oh yeah, I remember those, remember the.

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<v Speaker 1>Big laser discs. Yeah, and you know what its original

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<v Speaker 1>name was.

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<v Speaker 2>You're gonna love this because it is nineteen seventy eight

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<v Speaker 2>disco vision.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh no, no, And the first and the first disc

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<v Speaker 1>released is Jaws. Yeah, that makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I want to talk the word Star for CPM. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what it comes out, and it doesn't become super popular,

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<v Speaker 2>then it'll become super popular in nineteen eighty one because

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<v Speaker 2>word Star cuts a deal with the Osbourne people to

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<v Speaker 2>bundle it with the Osbourne one bundling even back then,

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<v Speaker 2>Wow and the deck vacks eleven seven eighty And I

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't normally talk who a lot about an individual computer,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's so much of the architecture of this machine,

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<v Speaker 2>even though it was a mini computer, that sort of

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<v Speaker 2>describes how PCs will be built going forward, because it

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<v Speaker 2>was really they really worked hard on the instruction set

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<v Speaker 2>to maintain backward compatibility so that newer models could build

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<v Speaker 2>on the same instruction set pretty much indefinitely. And much

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<v Speaker 2>as that machine didn't survive long term, although it was

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<v Speaker 2>a phenomenal machine in its era, it really sort of

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<v Speaker 2>outlined the ideas of maintaining backward compatibility for better or worse. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>one last item. This is when Vince Surf and his

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<v Speaker 2>team define and test TCPIP.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, the stuff we're using right now as we make

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<v Speaker 2>this show nineteen seventy eight.

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<v Speaker 1>The TCPIP stack. That's it's the holy grail of computing

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<v Speaker 1>communication back then.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and UDP as well. It was all part of

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<v Speaker 2>the definition. UNIP is part of the stack. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's we're using UDP now obviously. Yeah, we do what

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing wicked fast.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, uh, what's next? I think we do better?

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<v Speaker 1>No framework, right, let's do it. Let's do it. Roll

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<v Speaker 1>the music all right, man, what do you go? You're

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia right now. I am Our friend Simon Crop

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<v Speaker 1>is from Australia and he's up to something else. Now

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<v Speaker 1>it's often is yeah, this is uh, he just posts

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<v Speaker 1>in our Slack channel. Hey, I wrote a source generator.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh cool, of course you did, said, that was my reply. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is called project files source generator. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>C sharp source generator that provides strongly typed compile time

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<v Speaker 1>access to project files marked with copied output directory in

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<v Speaker 1>the CS projectile. Wow. So a type safe API for

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<v Speaker 1>accessing files that are copied to the project's output directory,

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<v Speaker 1>eliminating magic strings, and providing intelligence and support for filepaths. Cool.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you might think that this is oh yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a neat feature. But you know, the more

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<v Speaker 1>I dug into the documentation here, the more you know

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<v Speaker 1>he highlights these features, and you're like, oh, how could

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<v Speaker 1>I have you know, lived without these strongly typed access

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<v Speaker 1>to project files. Right? That means you know this dot

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<v Speaker 1>dot dot file name compile time safety, so typos and

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<v Speaker 1>filepass become compilation errors. I love it. Intel Sense support

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<v Speaker 1>so you can discover available files through ID autocomplete. Automatic

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<v Speaker 1>synchronization regenerates when project files change, which is a great

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<v Speaker 1>feature of a cogenerator. Hierarchical structure that mirrors the project's

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<v Speaker 1>directory structure. Support for the glob pattern including star star,

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<v Speaker 1>recursive patterns. Smart naming converts file directory names to valid

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<v Speaker 1>see sharp identifiers, so you know, file names with a

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<v Speaker 1>space in the middle, that kind of stuff get converted

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<v Speaker 1>to a dash or whatever you say. Just really smart

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about source generation. Yeah, so there you go. Hats

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<v Speaker 1>off to Simon as usual.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, I've been calling LM's lately source generators too,

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<v Speaker 2>just re entrant.

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<v Speaker 1>Ones, yeah, and nondeterminist there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but it's interesting to see a proper source generator,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in this day and age as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's good on ya, Simon. Yeah, cool stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Who's talking to us today? Richard and I grab a

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<v Speaker 2>comment top of show nineteen seventy four. That's one we

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<v Speaker 2>did with Den Delamarski or we talked about kid hubspec

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<v Speaker 2>Kid because you know, all the AI.

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<v Speaker 1>I realized there's so much we didn't talk to Dan

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<v Speaker 1>about that we could have. We could have gone on

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<v Speaker 1>for another hour at least.

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<v Speaker 2>Easily, and it probably you know, and we're likely going

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<v Speaker 2>to maybe not with Den, but you know, one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things I've been doing on this tour talking to

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of different developers about how their development workflows

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<v Speaker 2>are changing using these new tools and just thinking large scale.

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<v Speaker 2>This comment comes from Brad who said during the episode

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<v Speaker 2>of the State of the developers will become shepherds of AI.

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<v Speaker 1>Love the term. My question is that these.

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<v Speaker 2>Companies don't hire younger developers to learn who will shepherd

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<v Speaker 2>the AI when the current developers retire or leave. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think Rad's referring to this idea that we don't

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<v Speaker 2>need junior developers anymore because the llms are going to

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<v Speaker 2>do it, which I think is passed for how long.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's patently false. Yeah, right, Like it's just

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<v Speaker 2>not the case. I think what junior developers need to

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<v Speaker 2>know and what every developer needs to know is starting

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<v Speaker 2>to change with these tools, and arguably the junior developers

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<v Speaker 2>will be more responsive to this because you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>the end, our job wasn't the right code. It was

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<v Speaker 2>to provide solutions to customers. And we've been teaching junior developers, well,

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<v Speaker 2>that's you do that by writing code, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>we're just gonna be teaching them something different, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as these new tools start to merge. It's it's pretty

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<v Speaker 2>raw stuff, but it's a great shocking point about what

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<v Speaker 2>the life cycle a developer looks like with these tools. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>involved as well, right, and and who you know what

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<v Speaker 2>it really means to shepherd AI going forward and just

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<v Speaker 2>want to talk about here. I'll leave it for the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Brad.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for your comment, and a copy

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<v Speaker 2>of Music go By is on its way to you.

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<v Speaker 2>If you'd like a copy of Music go Buy, write

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<v Speaker 2>a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com

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<v Speaker 2>or on the facebooks. We publish every show there and

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<v Speaker 2>if you comment there and a read on the show,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll send you copy Music go By.

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<v Speaker 1>I told you that I've been working on the next

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<v Speaker 1>version of Music to code By, the next track, right,

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<v Speaker 1>mm hmm. Yeah, so it's pretty good. I think I

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<v Speaker 1>sent you a little sample. I think you have and

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know that I've had a chance to open it.

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<v Speaker 1>Traveling hither and you're on right now? Yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's pretty cool. It's different, you know, And that's the

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<v Speaker 1>that's the thing. I try to make every track a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit different because well, you know, you're a bit older,

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<v Speaker 1>you want to switch it up. I think you're you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you've been doing this for a while, Fred, so I

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned things have changed, you know, yeah, and waiting your

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<v Speaker 1>approach sure, I'll give it a listen music to co

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<v Speaker 1>by dot net if you want to get those tracks,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three of them to be exact in waveflak or

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<v Speaker 1>in MP three format. Okay, so let's bring back Tom Karkov.

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<v Speaker 1>He's been on the show several times. Tom's a senior

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<v Speaker 1>software engineer at Microsoft working on the data plane for

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<v Speaker 1>Azure API Management, helping customers successfully scale their API landscapes.

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<v Speaker 1>He has been working in the cloud native space for

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<v Speaker 1>more than seven years. As of now, auto scaling is

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<v Speaker 1>in his DNA and is an alumni maintainer of Kubernet's

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<v Speaker 1>Event Driven Auto Scaling or KEDA kDa. Then that's a

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<v Speaker 1>CNCF graduation project that makes application auto scaling on Kubernetes

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<v Speaker 1>dead simple. Prior to joining Microsoft, Tom was recognized as

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<v Speaker 1>a Microsoft Azure MVP an advisor from twenty fourteen to

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty one, a CNCF Ambassador from twenty twenty to

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty three, and was one of the first gid

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<v Speaker 1>up stars. He is famous for turning coffee into scalable

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<v Speaker 1>and secure cloud systems and writes about his adventures on

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<v Speaker 1>blog dot Tom Karkov be and That's k e r

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<v Speaker 1>K h O V E. Welcome back, Tom, Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>very much for having me. You bet good to have

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<v Speaker 1>you back.

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<v Speaker 4>Friend, always fun.

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<v Speaker 1>Any comments on anything you've heard so far.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, AI definitely is changing things. It's also making it

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<v Speaker 4>easier to learn and to explore. And also I had

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<v Speaker 4>a small accident a half a year ago, so it

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<v Speaker 4>was not really able to type with one hand.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh no, But it was.

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<v Speaker 4>Interesting to see how you can use AI or good

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<v Speaker 4>old speech to text and how powerful it is nowadays

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<v Speaker 4>to help you mind blowing.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you all recovered?

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<v Speaker 4>Semi?

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<v Speaker 1>So?

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<v Speaker 4>I can move almost my finger a bit, but not

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<v Speaker 4>fully so pressing control is a bit hard, but there's

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<v Speaker 4>more things in life.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you play an instrument?

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<v Speaker 4>Thankfully?

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<v Speaker 1>Not thankfully, but you could always play the kazoo.

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<v Speaker 4>My wife does not approve, but.

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<v Speaker 1>I appreciate that you started.

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<v Speaker 2>You'd use this as an opportunity experiment with the voice interfaces,

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<v Speaker 2>so you're writing code by voice.

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<v Speaker 4>So I used to use a speech to text to

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<v Speaker 4>write my emails and it didn't make any mistakes, so

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<v Speaker 4>that was very interesting. I tried to use Copilot and

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<v Speaker 4>Visual Studio back then, but there was no voice option,

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<v Speaker 4>but VIAS code had it back in the day, so

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<v Speaker 4>I just gave it prompts to a voice. And it

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<v Speaker 4>also made me realize how important it is to think

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<v Speaker 4>about these kind of features so that everybody can use

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<v Speaker 4>these tools.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're going to be an accessibility advocate now I

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<v Speaker 2>think you've had You've now had the pain.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, that's really interesting.

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<v Speaker 4>Now I know how it is to be able to

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<v Speaker 4>do it. So that was interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we we. I think we three value our hands

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<v Speaker 2>just about more than anything. Yes, like you think about

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<v Speaker 2>what we do all day. My god, I need my

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<v Speaker 2>hands exactly totally.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>But even been the API guy for forever, right, and

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<v Speaker 2>I only see that as getting more Importantase. I can't

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<v Speaker 2>tell you how many times we have this conversation about

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<v Speaker 2>if you're not using as your API management, you're making

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<v Speaker 2>a mistake, like you expose that API to the world.

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<v Speaker 2>There's all kinds of punishing things that are going to

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<v Speaker 2>happen to you unless you have a tool you know

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<v Speaker 2>meant for that problem.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, clearly I'm biased, but before I joined Microsoft, I

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<v Speaker 4>was a consultant and it was kind of one of

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<v Speaker 4>the default tools in my tool chain because sometimes people think, oh,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't need this, but later on they would notice that,

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<v Speaker 4>oh I could have used it, but now it's not

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<v Speaker 4>in place, so now it's a problem to shove it in.

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<v Speaker 4>Is it challenging to retrofit and theory? No, but like

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<v Speaker 4>you need to talk to different endpoints. If you don't

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<v Speaker 4>have DNS properly set up, that's kind of breaking change

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<v Speaker 4>for your customers, et cetera, et cetera. So if you

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<v Speaker 4>don't think about those things upfront, that can be problematic.

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<v Speaker 4>But yeah, I agree. It helps you govern all your

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<v Speaker 4>APIs and to secure them and keep things under control,

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<v Speaker 4>which is usually a problem if you're growing like fast

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<v Speaker 4>as a company.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. Some things people don't think of when

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<v Speaker 1>they expose an API layer is denial of service attacks

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<v Speaker 1>against your API. Yes, you know, because if you have

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<v Speaker 1>an endpoint out there that's answering the door no matter

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<v Speaker 1>who comes to the door, and an army shows up,

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<v Speaker 1>you've got a problem.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeaheah, it's fine until it isn't. Yeah, then go figure

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<v Speaker 4>out how to solve it. If you don't have a

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<v Speaker 4>solution like this.

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<v Speaker 1>Even when that DDoS attack is an over diligent developer

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<v Speaker 1>who's written some bad software.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh well, I've seen things before I joined, Like people

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<v Speaker 4>get to know what a health endpoint is, so they

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<v Speaker 4>eagerly start adopting it and then they create their own

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<v Speaker 4>videos attack and they cannot turn it off, so they

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<v Speaker 4>need to figure out which machinef to shut down to

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<v Speaker 4>avoid bringing their customers down.

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<v Speaker 2>That's an interesting one and that's one of the things

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<v Speaker 2>that as your API is really good for is that

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<v Speaker 2>you can hey, take that one out. You know, in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>you can set you set a policy places it's over there,

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<v Speaker 2>just shut that one off and let me know.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Ballacies are a great way to rate limit at a

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<v Speaker 4>validation of the payloads at security logging, KPI tracking, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 4>And the second thing we have is like API analytics.

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<v Speaker 4>So if you were to have one customer that's very

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<v Speaker 4>aggressive and you need to figure out like who is it,

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<v Speaker 4>that report would basically tell you, oh, it's Richard or Carl,

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<v Speaker 4>we need to reach out or probably make access.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>So and now we have as of built I think

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<v Speaker 4>last year, we have an AI gateway and that one

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<v Speaker 4>is getting a lot of traction. So you can also

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<v Speaker 4>put it in front of your AI models and workloads.

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<v Speaker 1>You mean, if you have exposed an ll M via

424
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:16.440
<v Speaker 1>an endpoint. Why would you do that?

425
00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:20.519
<v Speaker 4>Yeah? For example, if you have asure open AI, but

426
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.960
<v Speaker 4>you need to kind of rate limit the tokens for

427
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:28.440
<v Speaker 4>that service or balance across accounts, you can now do

428
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:30.319
<v Speaker 4>that through our gateway as well.

429
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.240
<v Speaker 1>So there's still security there.

430
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:38.440
<v Speaker 4>Yes, there's security. There's rate limiting, monitoring, et cetera. So

431
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.680
<v Speaker 4>that's growing a lot as well. So, like I can imagine,

432
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:45.000
<v Speaker 4>we keep joking we used to be an API gateway,

433
00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.400
<v Speaker 4>but now the piece between brackets because we're also in

434
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:49.680
<v Speaker 4>AI gateway Now.

435
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's just a subsection in the documentation

436
00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.359
<v Speaker 2>for the Azure API management but it's I bet it's

437
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.359
<v Speaker 2>got a lot of demand on it right now. Lots

438
00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:01.000
<v Speaker 2>of people are trying to figure out what the product

439
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:01.359
<v Speaker 2>is here.

440
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:05.119
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's it's been fun lately. I wouldn't say quiet,

441
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:06.000
<v Speaker 4>but interesting.

442
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Interesting, we've been busy.

443
00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:12.079
<v Speaker 2>What I mean, what makes the is the the tricky

444
00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:15.440
<v Speaker 2>part of the AI gateway. Now you're measuring tokens like that,

445
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.480
<v Speaker 2>that's the issue. I want to rate limit on tokens?

446
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:23.440
<v Speaker 4>Yes, correct, Yeah, so measuring tokens uh to rate limit

447
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:26.359
<v Speaker 4>but also kind of have metrics. Who's using how many

448
00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.000
<v Speaker 4>tokens were to have those insights, Yeah.

449
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:31.640
<v Speaker 2>All the same things I want when with my a

450
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.680
<v Speaker 2>PI utilization it's like, you know, this person is making

451
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:38.319
<v Speaker 2>x many calls per second, or yes, they're doing the

452
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.960
<v Speaker 2>most expensive calls like that, that kind of thing, just

453
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:44.319
<v Speaker 2>sort of having that shape of what the utilization looks

454
00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:49.079
<v Speaker 2>like per customer exactly. Yea, yeah, all right, because yeah,

455
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:51.839
<v Speaker 2>if you're if you're if those tokens roll uphill and

456
00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:54.400
<v Speaker 2>you're paying for them and then you know, flat rating

457
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.079
<v Speaker 2>to the customer, this is a good way to bankrupt

458
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:58.160
<v Speaker 2>your company a big old hurry exactly.

459
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:01.319
<v Speaker 4>So that's that's why we try to help protect yourself

460
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.319
<v Speaker 4>from running out of money.

461
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, finding out all of a sudden you yeah, I

462
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:07.240
<v Speaker 2>don't think. I think, yeah, I suddenly get a big

463
00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:08.880
<v Speaker 2>bill at the end of the month. It's like, guess

464
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:10.599
<v Speaker 2>what your customers did.

465
00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:17.240
<v Speaker 1>Exactly. That's what probably also a good place to log

466
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.799
<v Speaker 1>the prompts, right, Yes, so you can do that. You

467
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:22.000
<v Speaker 1>could say, hey, we ran out of token, so let

468
00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:25.319
<v Speaker 1>me see what everybody's sending, and then they're like, you know,

469
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:30.200
<v Speaker 1>what's the nearest burger king or whatever, Hey, you don't

470
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:31.240
<v Speaker 1>use it for that.

471
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:33.799
<v Speaker 4>Or how often do people say thank you?

472
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Right. There was a whole article about how much

473
00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:39.039
<v Speaker 1>thank you was costing in tokens.

474
00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:42.119
<v Speaker 4>Yes, it's burning a lot of compute just to process

475
00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:45.680
<v Speaker 4>thank you, which is being polite in case the robots

476
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:47.759
<v Speaker 4>start to wake up.

477
00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.559
<v Speaker 1>But I don't know money. I think it helps us

478
00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:53.640
<v Speaker 1>when we're polite to the models.

479
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:55.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I got it. I got to tell you. I've

480
00:24:55.720 --> 00:25:00.519
<v Speaker 2>read some prompt chains for coding where it's like, dude,

481
00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:03.759
<v Speaker 2>if this wasn't software, this is an HR violation. Why

482
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.000
<v Speaker 2>are you communicating to this tool so obnoxiously?

483
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:13.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Right, I told you that. My My wife's favorite

484
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:16.400
<v Speaker 1>thing to tell she who starts with a you know,

485
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:22.559
<v Speaker 1>the echo, but is shut up, not stop. She just

486
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:26.559
<v Speaker 1>says shut up and it and it works makes her

487
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:27.680
<v Speaker 1>feel good. I guess.

488
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:28.160
<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

489
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:29.759
<v Speaker 1>Google.

490
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.720
<v Speaker 4>Google responds interesting. So once was an in traffic jam

491
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:36.279
<v Speaker 4>and then Google asked me how can I help you?

492
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:40.519
<v Speaker 4>And I said, oh, go away, like not so politely,

493
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:42.640
<v Speaker 4>and it said, oh, I know I'm not a human,

494
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:43.599
<v Speaker 4>but you still need.

495
00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:45.319
<v Speaker 1>To be polite, but be nice.

496
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:48.279
<v Speaker 4>It's like there was like, okay, interesting, good point.

497
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah do I do? I? Well, like I said, I

498
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.200
<v Speaker 1>think it makes us humans feel better about ourselves when

499
00:25:56.200 --> 00:25:58.599
<v Speaker 1>we're just polite as a habit. I agree. Yeah, No,

500
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:03.519
<v Speaker 1>I think that, you know, negativity is contagious, Yes, you know, ye,

501
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:05.599
<v Speaker 1>and so I think think it's a thing.

502
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:09.400
<v Speaker 4>I guess it comes. It will also improve you, Like,

503
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.519
<v Speaker 4>these agents work better the more context you give it,

504
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:16.680
<v Speaker 4>and if you're more polite, you will naturally give more

505
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:20.359
<v Speaker 4>context and explain more rather than being rude. That's not

506
00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:21.759
<v Speaker 4>going to be useful anyway.

507
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, route tends to be terse where politeness tends to

508
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:28.880
<v Speaker 2>be more or moose, and that additional information should get

509
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.839
<v Speaker 2>better results exactly. Yeah, that's an interesting point on that

510
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:35.640
<v Speaker 2>as well. It's just like, hey, it makes the room nicer. Sure,

511
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:37.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm just thinking about a bullpen of developers, you know,

512
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:41.240
<v Speaker 2>a dozen people working together and they're all cursing at

513
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:42.920
<v Speaker 2>software at the same time.

514
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:45.839
<v Speaker 1>What kind of room is that. I don't know if

515
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:48.319
<v Speaker 1>I want that room, I want a better room than that.

516
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:50.440
<v Speaker 4>That's why they invented the term war room.

517
00:26:50.599 --> 00:26:56.359
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, well there is, there are real war rooms,

518
00:26:57.400 --> 00:26:59.920
<v Speaker 5>you know, and I think I think we just borrow

519
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:01.720
<v Speaker 5>that in software from the military.

520
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:04.559
<v Speaker 1>We had a warm room at a place that I

521
00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:09.960
<v Speaker 1>worked in California in the nineties. It was before Carl

522
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.240
<v Speaker 1>and Gary's went up. So, but it was my idea.

523
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.440
<v Speaker 1>It was this is a really weird experience. I basically said, hey,

524
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.359
<v Speaker 1>let's make this extra office that nobody's using the warm room,

525
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:24.640
<v Speaker 1>and if somebody has a problem, you go in there

526
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 1>and try to solve it with them, and you know,

527
00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:29.680
<v Speaker 1>shut the door, and then when you come out, you

528
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.160
<v Speaker 1>don't come out until you have a solution. So one

529
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:36.640
<v Speaker 1>developer said, Okay, Carl, let's go into the warm room.

530
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.200
<v Speaker 1>I have a problem. I said, what, And he goes,

531
00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:50.359
<v Speaker 1>do you have an agenda? Like what? Oh? Man, that's weird.

532
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.319
<v Speaker 1>Be careful what you ask for. Yeah, I know.

533
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.119
<v Speaker 2>And nothing's free, man, it comes to consequences the case.

534
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:00.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, why don't we take a break? Yeah, that's good idea.

535
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:03.920
<v Speaker 1>So we'll be right back after these very important messages.

536
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:08.799
<v Speaker 1>Did you know that you can work with AWS directly

537
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:14.000
<v Speaker 1>from your ide AWS provides toolkits for Visual Studio, Visual

538
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:18.680
<v Speaker 1>Studio code, and jet brainswrider. Learn more at AWS dot

539
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Amazon dot com, slash net slash tools. Hey Carl, here,

540
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.680
<v Speaker 1>you probably know. Text Control is a powerful library for

541
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:32.599
<v Speaker 1>document editing and PDF generation. But did you know they're

542
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.160
<v Speaker 1>also a strong supporter of the developer community. It's part

543
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.119
<v Speaker 1>of their mission to build and support a strong developer

544
00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:43.519
<v Speaker 1>community by being present, listening to users, and sharing knowledge

545
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.279
<v Speaker 1>at conferences across Europe and the United States. So if

546
00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:50.640
<v Speaker 1>you're heading to a conference soon, check if text Control

547
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.400
<v Speaker 1>will be there and stop buy to say hi. You

548
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:58.400
<v Speaker 1>can find their full conference calendar at dubdbdb dot textcontrol

549
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:00.799
<v Speaker 1>dot com and make sure you we thank them for

550
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:05.400
<v Speaker 1>supporting dot net Rocks. Now we're back. It's on at

551
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:07.480
<v Speaker 1>Rocks Amateur Campbell. It's called Franklin.

552
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Hey, talking to our friend Tom, who spends part of

553
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.559
<v Speaker 2>his life in API management. But now you're more focused

554
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:17.720
<v Speaker 2>on sustainability. But I guess API managements about sustainability as well, right.

555
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:22.119
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So we've been spending some time on this because,

556
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.720
<v Speaker 4>like we just mentioned, like we front all these APIs

557
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.960
<v Speaker 4>and now these AI models as well, and we kind

558
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:33.640
<v Speaker 4>of have a good position to help customers who want

559
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:39.839
<v Speaker 4>to reduce their emissions. Interesting, like, we're at the heart

560
00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:43.720
<v Speaker 4>of these platforms and we know where the traffic is

561
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:47.119
<v Speaker 4>going to route, so we have a very good opportunity

562
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:50.240
<v Speaker 4>to make sure that the traffic that gets routed to

563
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:55.079
<v Speaker 4>the back end can for example, be routing to a

564
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:59.319
<v Speaker 4>region where it is daytime versus night, which means right,

565
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:01.599
<v Speaker 4>if they're more solar. If we map them to the

566
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:04.680
<v Speaker 4>Azure data centers, for example, we know what the regular

567
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.680
<v Speaker 4>emission is in those regions, so we can say, oh,

568
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.359
<v Speaker 4>this one now runs dirty energy. Let's shift the traffic

569
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:15.200
<v Speaker 4>to another region where we know it's screen energy. And

570
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:18.079
<v Speaker 4>that gives you the benefit of if they use auto

571
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:21.079
<v Speaker 4>scaling on these back ends, they can really shift their

572
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:25.759
<v Speaker 4>whole traffic there so they can scale in and reduce

573
00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:26.640
<v Speaker 4>their emissions.

574
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.000
<v Speaker 2>And it's an interesting truth that data centers have more

575
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.480
<v Speaker 2>energy available during the day, presumably largely due to solar

576
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.880
<v Speaker 2>so arguably could even be cheaper. You know, we could

577
00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:40.039
<v Speaker 2>be chasing the lowest cost workloads around as well. I've

578
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:42.680
<v Speaker 2>always thought that API management was a great point for

579
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:45.680
<v Speaker 2>measuring like cost of transaction, but you're also talking about

580
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:50.519
<v Speaker 2>emissions per transaction as well. Is Microsoft, We've seen a

581
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:52.359
<v Speaker 2>lot of work being done and Carl you've been a

582
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:54.400
<v Speaker 2>part of that with the new version of Polly where

583
00:30:55.079 --> 00:31:00.319
<v Speaker 2>they're re engineering software A to scale enormously, so just

584
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.759
<v Speaker 2>to be more aware of what that utilization looks like

585
00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:06.720
<v Speaker 2>at scale, because they're looking at millions billions of utilizations

586
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:11.279
<v Speaker 2>possibly per second, and that does every cycle costs money,

587
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:16.079
<v Speaker 2>every cycle lost money. Man, So yeah, intriated, all these

588
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:16.759
<v Speaker 2>things work together.

589
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:20.720
<v Speaker 1>Stein of Energy, Richard, do you want to give us

590
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.960
<v Speaker 1>a little what am I trying to say a little

591
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:27.640
<v Speaker 1>preview of the end of year energy geek out? Anything

592
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:30.599
<v Speaker 1>that you'd like to talk about in terms of energy

593
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:37.039
<v Speaker 1>methods or generating energy from you know, to power these

594
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:39.839
<v Speaker 1>AI data centers. That might be a good idea. Well,

595
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:40.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm there's a whole section.

596
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:43.799
<v Speaker 2>You know, I work off my notes for the end

597
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:46.240
<v Speaker 2>of year geek outs for months, so I have a

598
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:49.440
<v Speaker 2>whole section about what all the tech companies are doing

599
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.519
<v Speaker 2>to deal with the power requirements for AID data centers.

600
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.160
<v Speaker 2>It's extraordinary. And you know, we've talked about this before

601
00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:58.000
<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to get too far into it now,

602
00:31:58.039 --> 00:32:01.240
<v Speaker 2>but power companies are all sure conservatives. They don't tend

603
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:03.440
<v Speaker 2>to build new technologies. That's not what power companies do.

604
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:08.519
<v Speaker 2>They're in the reliability business. Tech companies like building new things.

605
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:11.519
<v Speaker 2>So an interesting debate here about whether it makes sense

606
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:16.160
<v Speaker 2>for tech companies to actually mature power technologies, mostly because

607
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:19.240
<v Speaker 2>the three spending money on them that'll be available to

608
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:23.440
<v Speaker 2>the greater public in the long term. So yeah, stay tuned.

609
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:26.720
<v Speaker 1>We have a nuclear power station in my town. I'm

610
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:28.400
<v Speaker 1>at the north end of the town. It's at the

611
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:31.759
<v Speaker 1>south of the southern tip, right on the water. And

612
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:38.119
<v Speaker 1>this we heard rumors floating that somebody wanted to op

613
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:40.400
<v Speaker 1>I think it might even be Microsoft might have wanted

614
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.640
<v Speaker 1>to open a data center or build a data center

615
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:47.279
<v Speaker 1>right next to the power nuclear power plan. Sure interesting,

616
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:51.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, and that's really thinking ahead because if you're

617
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:53.119
<v Speaker 1>going to use wads and wads of energy, you might

618
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:55.160
<v Speaker 1>as well be as close to the source as possible.

619
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:58.559
<v Speaker 2>And it reminds us that data centers in many ways

620
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:01.519
<v Speaker 2>are the new heavy dust street. You know, it's super

621
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:05.839
<v Speaker 2>normal to build an aluminum smelter or a steel plant

622
00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:10.119
<v Speaker 2>beside the power generation source because you use so much

623
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.000
<v Speaker 2>of it. So you know, this new heavy energy building

624
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:14.640
<v Speaker 2>it alongside its power makes a lot of sense. But

625
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:16.279
<v Speaker 2>that's another show, and.

626
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:18.160
<v Speaker 1>Another show I don't want to do rail Us and

627
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:22.400
<v Speaker 1>another show that's coming up soon. Yes, yes, the end

628
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:23.599
<v Speaker 1>of the year is upon us.

629
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:28.160
<v Speaker 4>So it's interesting though how much progress they've made on

630
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:32.680
<v Speaker 4>the data center side to be more efficient. Like, I'm

631
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:36.400
<v Speaker 4>not an expert on that, but like we now have

632
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:40.519
<v Speaker 4>AI data centers they announce that ignite it are fully

633
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:47.079
<v Speaker 4>closed water systems where they pour in like households of

634
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:51.039
<v Speaker 4>water that they consume usually in the closed system, and

635
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:55.000
<v Speaker 4>it stays in there for years. Right, because it's closed loop,

636
00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:57.720
<v Speaker 4>you're not like losing any water.

637
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:02.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they're reusing water over over again, she was more complicated, doue.

638
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:07.039
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, they're getting rid of concrete by kind of reinventing

639
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.599
<v Speaker 4>types of wood to make it more sustainable. It's really interesting,

640
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:13.920
<v Speaker 4>mind blowing, Yeah, if you dive into that area.

641
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

642
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.280
<v Speaker 2>And the advantage here, of course, is that tech is

643
00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:20.239
<v Speaker 2>not a low margin business, so you can afford to

644
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:22.880
<v Speaker 2>spend more money knowing you're going to earn out over

645
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:26.159
<v Speaker 2>time with these data centers. But I think this all

646
00:34:26.199 --> 00:34:29.320
<v Speaker 2>starts with being able to measure utilization. Yes, it's crazy

647
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:30.880
<v Speaker 2>to think about this in context of an API, but

648
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:31.920
<v Speaker 2>it makes perfect sense.

649
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.239
<v Speaker 1>It is the logical unit of measure.

650
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.519
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so we don't expose the kind of the carbon

651
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:42.599
<v Speaker 4>emission directly, but if you want to measure things in

652
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:47.360
<v Speaker 4>azure there's a service called Azure Carbon Optimization which shows

653
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:51.400
<v Speaker 4>you the emission by Azure compute workload and it gives

654
00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:54.559
<v Speaker 4>you kind of a recommendation and it says, for example,

655
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.079
<v Speaker 4>it's also good for cost saving. Oh, you're using this

656
00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:01.360
<v Speaker 4>vmsas instance, with this vmskew, this is your emission for

657
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:06.320
<v Speaker 4>this service, but you're utilizing only like twenty percent. We

658
00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:10.440
<v Speaker 4>recommend you using this skew or that skew or all

659
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:12.360
<v Speaker 4>these kind of things. So that is good for the

660
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:16.280
<v Speaker 4>kind of reporting side. Interesting, where are we over provisioned?

661
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.800
<v Speaker 4>And then what we're trying to help with is to

662
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:23.840
<v Speaker 4>kind of route your requests to the regions where it's

663
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:27.800
<v Speaker 4>more efficient. But there's also a second aspect, like we

664
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.039
<v Speaker 4>have all these policies that you can run kind of

665
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:34.519
<v Speaker 4>this logic on your gateway before going to the back end.

666
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:40.079
<v Speaker 4>So we've introduced capability that in your policies you can check, oh,

667
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:43.960
<v Speaker 4>the emission is high. So let me not log all

668
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.800
<v Speaker 4>these big payloads which require more compute on the gateway

669
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:51.039
<v Speaker 4>or puts pressure on service bus or event hubs in

670
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.800
<v Speaker 4>that region. Let's just skip this section and reduce the

671
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.199
<v Speaker 4>kind of the overhead in this region. If it's not

672
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:01.440
<v Speaker 4>required so that the gateways can also scale in.

673
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:04.519
<v Speaker 2>So it's just a recognizing there are optional workloads that

674
00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:08.239
<v Speaker 2>could be time shifted, the location shifted, yes, to change that.

675
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:12.039
<v Speaker 4>Like auditing metrics. These kind of things are not always

676
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:15.719
<v Speaker 4>mission critical. So I always compare it with what teams

677
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.719
<v Speaker 4>did during COVID right, they were overloaded, they did not

678
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.599
<v Speaker 4>have the CPUs, so we did it small things like

679
00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:28.239
<v Speaker 4>remove the Thomas typing indication, which costed a lot of CPU.

680
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.840
<v Speaker 4>And there's a blog from I think Mark Rosinovich that

681
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:35.400
<v Speaker 4>explains the impact from disabling that feature on the compute

682
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:40.639
<v Speaker 4>that required. Wow, it's kind of our flavor of this

683
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:42.679
<v Speaker 4>for your APIs Yeah.

684
00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, I think it's interesting to think in terms

685
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.840
<v Speaker 2>of you've got a company with a green initiative like this,

686
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:53.800
<v Speaker 2>and you can start working through your software to say

687
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:58.239
<v Speaker 2>where can we make an optimization. There's a case study

688
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.639
<v Speaker 2>begging here to say, well, which which of these has

689
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:02.440
<v Speaker 2>the largest impact?

690
00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:04.719
<v Speaker 1>Where do you even start? But I think the number one,

691
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:07.920
<v Speaker 1>of course is measure is once you measure, the obvious

692
00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:09.039
<v Speaker 1>ones will fall out. Yeah.

693
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.559
<v Speaker 4>Measure and adopt auto scaling would be another one. I

694
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.480
<v Speaker 4>would say, like a lot of people are over provisioned

695
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 4>or maybe like you don't need to be over provisioned

696
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:24.159
<v Speaker 4>all the time. Like most cases, customers can just start

697
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.119
<v Speaker 4>scaling out during the business week, but in the weekend

698
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:29.280
<v Speaker 4>they can scale in because nobody's in it.

699
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you still got the old reflexes, which I'd

700
00:37:32.599 --> 00:37:34.840
<v Speaker 2>have to admit I still do. Like we always when

701
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.480
<v Speaker 2>we're building out our own infrastructure, you provision for peak,

702
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.440
<v Speaker 2>which is to say, you over provision for everything else, Yes,

703
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:43.639
<v Speaker 2>so that you can get through you know where we're

704
00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.119
<v Speaker 2>recording this right around the time Black Friday is coming,

705
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:50.880
<v Speaker 2>so talk about peak, right, and so they you know

706
00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:54.599
<v Speaker 2>the idea that really elasticity works both ways, not just

707
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:57.960
<v Speaker 2>scaling up but scaling down. Yes, but autoscale is not

708
00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:00.159
<v Speaker 2>a product per se, right, Like there's a lot are

709
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:01.639
<v Speaker 2>things that go into auto scale.

710
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:06.800
<v Speaker 4>Yes, that is true. There's more things you can do though,

711
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:12.960
<v Speaker 4>Like it doesn't always have to be like this intense.

712
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:17.679
<v Speaker 4>Let's say, like architecture platforms like this, because of course,

713
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.440
<v Speaker 4>if you shift traffic, the kind of the new region

714
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:23.679
<v Speaker 4>where all the traffic is going needs to be able

715
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:27.000
<v Speaker 4>to handle it, because otherwise you're going to create your

716
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:30.039
<v Speaker 4>own outage. So that's why if not a single back

717
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:33.079
<v Speaker 4>end is kind of healthy, we'll just keep routing it

718
00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:36.400
<v Speaker 4>there anyway. But as a developer, what's one of the

719
00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:40.519
<v Speaker 4>most common thing that happens. I check in my code,

720
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:43.920
<v Speaker 4>I have a CI trigger, etc. In a lot of cases,

721
00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.679
<v Speaker 4>people have a lot of pipelines starting out, but nobody

722
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:50.199
<v Speaker 4>looks at them. Right, that's a lot of compute as

723
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:54.599
<v Speaker 4>a company or burn So maybe revised. If you really

724
00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:57.639
<v Speaker 4>need all of those CI pipelines, or make them on the.

725
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:01.519
<v Speaker 1>Nd maybe you only activate the pipeline on Friday or

726
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:02.320
<v Speaker 1>something exactly.

727
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:06.679
<v Speaker 4>So if it's not like that urgent, maybe don't do it.

728
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you guys are countering like a decade. Now I'll

729
00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:15.400
<v Speaker 2>go faster, go faster, Go faster, go faster. Right, it

730
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:18.559
<v Speaker 2>depends if you're using these pipelines. Fine, but I've seen

731
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people that once create a pipeline, then

732
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:22.639
<v Speaker 2>never look at it anymore.

733
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Question right, Well, I kind of think that was the

734
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:28.280
<v Speaker 1>lore of doing that. It's like, yeah, automate as much

735
00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:31.079
<v Speaker 1>of that work as possible so that you don't have

736
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:33.800
<v Speaker 1>to worry about it. But now we're worrying about it

737
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:37.679
<v Speaker 1>because it's costing a lot of cycles and money that

738
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:40.119
<v Speaker 1>you know comes down to money.

739
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.519
<v Speaker 4>It is a trade of like is it useful or

740
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:47.800
<v Speaker 4>is it something that we actually don't really need anymore

741
00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:49.559
<v Speaker 4>or run less often?

742
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:52.400
<v Speaker 1>Maybe remember we used to have build Friday's Richard, yep,

743
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, back when we thought a build master was

744
00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:58.400
<v Speaker 1>a good idea. Oh yeah, build server. We had to

745
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:04.639
<v Speaker 1>build server. Yeah, but you know we're happy with just

746
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:08.360
<v Speaker 1>checking in code and everybody's synced up and all that stuff.

747
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:11.320
<v Speaker 1>And when we want to have a release, you just

748
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:14.639
<v Speaker 1>publish it and it's yeah, we can get that down

749
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:16.760
<v Speaker 1>to just one command now right.

750
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:20.199
<v Speaker 2>Yes, well so, but to Tom's point, you also get

751
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:23.599
<v Speaker 2>to the situation where everybody's pushing builds constantly and then

752
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:27.800
<v Speaker 2>somebody's deciding to actually put it out, and so in between,

753
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.199
<v Speaker 2>all those in between builds were kind of unnecessary. So

754
00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:33.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, the advantage of automation is that it's also

755
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:37.440
<v Speaker 2>then tunable. So it would be that hard to go

756
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:40.039
<v Speaker 2>back in there from a macro perspective and say, how

757
00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:41.679
<v Speaker 2>many of these builds actually get used?

758
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:44.760
<v Speaker 1>Can we delay? You know, when does it make sense

759
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:47.159
<v Speaker 1>actually push? And then with the consequence of that, I.

760
00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:51.280
<v Speaker 4>Think CI is one aspect. There's also the situation where

761
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:57.000
<v Speaker 4>you have scheduled pipelines where the tests every hour or

762
00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.639
<v Speaker 4>every two hours, but how often do you really look

763
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:01.800
<v Speaker 4>at these tests? Like maybe daily is enough?

764
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:07.719
<v Speaker 1>Right? How important do you see agency in DevOps be

765
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:11.159
<v Speaker 1>becoming a partner so that you could give it a

766
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:14.159
<v Speaker 1>set of rules that it could monitor and make its

767
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:17.440
<v Speaker 1>own decisions as to when to build based on those rules.

768
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:21.159
<v Speaker 1>Because that's really what you're doing when you when you're

769
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:25.679
<v Speaker 1>figuring out strategies and and doing it yourself. So I

770
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:26.719
<v Speaker 1>mean when you see that.

771
00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:31.800
<v Speaker 4>I think that that's something that will come as a

772
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:35.159
<v Speaker 4>next step. Maybe not as the next step, but eventually

773
00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:38.880
<v Speaker 4>one Like we push all these cis how many devs

774
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:44.320
<v Speaker 4>actually check if it regresses the tests, then everything accumulates

775
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:47.719
<v Speaker 4>and then you have x failing tests. Now go figure

776
00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:50.960
<v Speaker 4>out what what what's the problem or who to figure out?

777
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:54.920
<v Speaker 4>Who to solve this problem? I think that's where agents

778
00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:57.960
<v Speaker 4>will become a theme where they kind of auto three

779
00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:02.679
<v Speaker 4>IG identified the issue. Yeah, picking the people alto rovert

780
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:05.480
<v Speaker 4>or whatever. That's going to help a lot.

781
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:08.079
<v Speaker 2>On run as I just put out a show on

782
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:13.199
<v Speaker 2>the Azure software Reliability Engineering agents, which that's literally what

783
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:16.559
<v Speaker 2>their job is is to pick up events in it

784
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:20.320
<v Speaker 2>that occur and a deployed piece of software and analyze

785
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:23.360
<v Speaker 2>them even to the point of making co change recommendations.

786
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:25.719
<v Speaker 1>This is all in the back end in Azure. It's

787
00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:26.840
<v Speaker 1>all in Azure. Yeah.

788
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, these agents, I mean, it's the still miles to go.

789
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:32.920
<v Speaker 2>These are early versions, but it does speak to I

790
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:35.639
<v Speaker 2>think exactly what you're describing to them that you will

791
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:38.360
<v Speaker 2>have from you know, you know, as a guy who

792
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.280
<v Speaker 2>spent time on a Saturday trying to keep an e

793
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:44.559
<v Speaker 2>commerce side alive. The fact that you can have an

794
00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:47.800
<v Speaker 2>error and these tools will at least do the initial

795
00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:50.119
<v Speaker 2>homework right that by the time you're looking at it,

796
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:52.239
<v Speaker 2>it's already done. The pull of this was the state

797
00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:54.239
<v Speaker 2>of the machine, This was the current load levels. Like

798
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:56.199
<v Speaker 2>all of the infos, we at least have a shape

799
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:57.519
<v Speaker 2>of what was this problem.

800
00:42:57.920 --> 00:42:59.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and at least they could recommend a few courses

801
00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:01.679
<v Speaker 1>of it and you didn't even have it to it.

802
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:04.320
<v Speaker 1>But you're making decision and that's yeah, that's where we

803
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.559
<v Speaker 1>are today. I like that. I like being the decider.

804
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:09.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm the decider.

805
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:12.960
<v Speaker 4>So you're talking about it as youre s a reagent.

806
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:16.400
<v Speaker 4>I presume that's right. Yes, that is a very that's

807
00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:20.440
<v Speaker 4>something we're onboarding as well. Like a lot of times

808
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:25.400
<v Speaker 4>it just reboot a machine and monitor its progress or whatever.

809
00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:28.000
<v Speaker 4>It's perfect for all these kind of things.

810
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:28.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure.

811
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:30.960
<v Speaker 4>Reducing all that toil, it's really great.

812
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:33.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if the answer was just reboot the machine and

813
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:35.400
<v Speaker 2>the problem will go away. The fact that you can

814
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:37.280
<v Speaker 2>have a tool that can get to that chain and

815
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:39.840
<v Speaker 2>do it for you, yes, and so by the time

816
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:42.719
<v Speaker 2>you know about it, it's already happened and recovered itself.

817
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:46.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and then it will start aggregating all these symptoms

818
00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:49.880
<v Speaker 4>and kind of unfold the bigger problem. It's like, why

819
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:51.920
<v Speaker 4>do we need to reboot all these machines. Then it

820
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:54.760
<v Speaker 4>will kind of summarize all the symptoms and say, probably

821
00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:56.760
<v Speaker 4>your problem lies there, now go fix it.

822
00:43:56.840 --> 00:44:00.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, memorily here, or do dispaced there, that kind of thing.

823
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:04.880
<v Speaker 1>You know, It's always funny when the software acts and

824
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:05.760
<v Speaker 1>then notifies you.

825
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:09.360
<v Speaker 2>Like back in the old SQL server hot failover days,

826
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:11.960
<v Speaker 2>like you would just get a notification databases failed over,

827
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:17.679
<v Speaker 2>and it was chilling because it's like, well, why did

828
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:18.320
<v Speaker 2>you fail over?

829
00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:24.119
<v Speaker 1>You know you're going to fail again. Reminds me of

830
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:28.679
<v Speaker 1>the early days of Azure Web Services when you because

831
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:33.480
<v Speaker 1>they didn't understand how to deal with the memory leaks

832
00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:36.280
<v Speaker 1>or things like that, there was no stuff built in

833
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:41.239
<v Speaker 1>on the server. The recommend mended course of action was

834
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:46.719
<v Speaker 1>to automatically restart the service on a schedule, just you know,

835
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:48.840
<v Speaker 1>and that was a way that you could out of sight,

836
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:52.000
<v Speaker 1>out of mind memory leaks or other problems. Yep, you know,

837
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:54.840
<v Speaker 1>turn it off, turn it back on. The universal fix.

838
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:59.519
<v Speaker 1>All right. How much is security in the back of

839
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:01.800
<v Speaker 1>your mind or the forefront of your mind is to

840
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:06.559
<v Speaker 1>work your way through these things APIs and AI in

841
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:08.000
<v Speaker 1>all of that.

842
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:11.840
<v Speaker 4>That's a good question, Carl. So in the past half

843
00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:16.280
<v Speaker 4>a year we've seen the sprawl of MCP servers spinning

844
00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:19.599
<v Speaker 4>up its very early days on the kind of the

845
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:24.280
<v Speaker 4>authentication specification for this. But that's actually one of the

846
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:28.000
<v Speaker 4>aspects that we can help with with Azure Api Management

847
00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:33.199
<v Speaker 4>is you can expose your APIs as MCP servers, and

848
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:37.760
<v Speaker 4>we have Azure Api Center, which is basically your internal

849
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:41.920
<v Speaker 4>MCP catalog or API catalog that can help you keep

850
00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:44.559
<v Speaker 4>track of all of these things. And the beauty is

851
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:48.719
<v Speaker 4>that because you expose them to Azure Api Management, you

852
00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:53.239
<v Speaker 4>can reuse those policies and say I want to have authentication,

853
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:56.119
<v Speaker 4>I want to have weight limit, et cetera. So you

854
00:45:56.239 --> 00:46:01.239
<v Speaker 4>still can use these MCP servers inside your organization, but

855
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:09.880
<v Speaker 4>you can still have kind of your enterprise policies on top. Yeah,

856
00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:12.760
<v Speaker 4>that policies and control on top that you have as

857
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:15.719
<v Speaker 4>a standard in your company to make sure it doesn't

858
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:16.840
<v Speaker 4>become a liability.

859
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:19.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's all good stuff. What I'm thinking about

860
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:24.679
<v Speaker 1>is giving an MCP server, which is really an agent, right,

861
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:30.119
<v Speaker 1>giving it agency to act on your behalf things that

862
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:35.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe some people don't want it acting that

863
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:40.159
<v Speaker 1>way on your behalf. Maybe that could pose a problem,

864
00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:47.800
<v Speaker 1>especially with over hyperactive, hyperactively helpful lms like you know,

865
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Claudes on It for example, loves to do things that

866
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:55.719
<v Speaker 1>you didn't ask it to, and if it had if

867
00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:01.440
<v Speaker 1>it had the power to send emails or to read emails,

868
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:04.920
<v Speaker 1>it could infect a system with now where like, there's

869
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:09.599
<v Speaker 1>so many problems when you give an agent agency to

870
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:14.440
<v Speaker 1>do things that might seem very convenient for you but

871
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:17.079
<v Speaker 1>could open up security holes.

872
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:20.480
<v Speaker 4>I think authorization is a very important point here, Like

873
00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:24.519
<v Speaker 4>even if it would still have access, is it still

874
00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:28.440
<v Speaker 4>authorized to perform the action right, right, and as you

875
00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:34.280
<v Speaker 4>expose those APIs, like one of the things we allow

876
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.119
<v Speaker 4>you to do is like maybe you have an API

877
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:41.000
<v Speaker 4>that says get an order, create an order, and cancel

878
00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:44.760
<v Speaker 4>an order, and then the back office of your store.

879
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:48.039
<v Speaker 4>But when you expose the MCP server, you have the

880
00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:52.440
<v Speaker 4>option to only expose get order, maybe create order, and

881
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:55.599
<v Speaker 4>the rest. It doesn't like, even if it would have

882
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.519
<v Speaker 4>access to it, we're not going to expose the API

883
00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.159
<v Speaker 4>even so it's not able to haul it right. And

884
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.039
<v Speaker 4>I think that's the second aspect, is that we used

885
00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:07.039
<v Speaker 4>to have all these open eyes spects with the operations.

886
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:10.679
<v Speaker 4>Now with this tooling, which is not a human person,

887
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:12.880
<v Speaker 4>we need to be more careful what are we even

888
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:14.480
<v Speaker 4>giving it access to.

889
00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:21.000
<v Speaker 1>For example, giving a SEQL server MCP the ability to

890
00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:23.639
<v Speaker 1>generate queries and run queries.

891
00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:25.199
<v Speaker 4>That is very dangerous.

892
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:29.280
<v Speaker 1>Yikes. I mean, think about that, generate t sql and

893
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:33.079
<v Speaker 1>then execute it. Unless you say, the only thing you

894
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:37.440
<v Speaker 1>can the only command you can create is select.

895
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:39.199
<v Speaker 4>Is drop table.

896
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:41.719
<v Speaker 1>If you say select is the only thing you can

897
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:44.880
<v Speaker 1>do and you can't do anything that's going to act

898
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:47.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, drop table or delete or anything like that.

899
00:48:48.280 --> 00:48:53.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, but you're still still untrustworthy, I think.

900
00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:56.760
<v Speaker 4>Very dangerous, and also enough material for the LM to

901
00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:59.199
<v Speaker 4>have trained on to learn what not to do, you

902
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:02.119
<v Speaker 4>would hope, So that is definitely yeah. I think that

903
00:49:02.199 --> 00:49:04.840
<v Speaker 4>comes back to the point I was making, like, don't

904
00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:10.039
<v Speaker 4>just expose everything. Think carefully, do reviews of what you're exposing.

905
00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:13.679
<v Speaker 4>Because it's not a human anymore. It's something that you

906
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:18.559
<v Speaker 4>will ask And like you mentioned, some models are eager

907
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:21.880
<v Speaker 4>to help, but that means you, like, maybe they're going

908
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:23.000
<v Speaker 4>to do things you don't want.

909
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, I do appreciate that, you know, getting back to

910
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:28.239
<v Speaker 2>as your API management. It's like you have to go

911
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:31.199
<v Speaker 2>down the ENTRA pipeline to even use this, right down

912
00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:32.920
<v Speaker 2>to sort of the B two C model where your

913
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:36.800
<v Speaker 2>customers have to have identities and so forth. You're forcing

914
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:39.760
<v Speaker 2>us into the pit of security success. You want to

915
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:42.320
<v Speaker 2>use these tools, you've got to follow zero trust rules.

916
00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:45.679
<v Speaker 2>You've got to properly authenticate everybody. It's that authorization and

917
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:48.000
<v Speaker 2>policy in place, and it's a paint in the butt.

918
00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:50.559
<v Speaker 2>It's part of the challenge of getting started with these things.

919
00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:55.760
<v Speaker 2>It's also way beneficial when stuff goes wrong.

920
00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:59.360
<v Speaker 4>Yes, and I was not part of the screw, so

921
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.800
<v Speaker 4>I cannot kind of get into the details. But and

922
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:07.440
<v Speaker 4>ignited last week when we're recording this, foundry was a

923
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:11.639
<v Speaker 4>big thing. And as part of Foundry or AI gateways integrated,

924
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:19.320
<v Speaker 4>which means every agent now hasn't dedicated entra id identity. Right,

925
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:22.760
<v Speaker 4>So we used to be humans who had like a

926
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:26.119
<v Speaker 4>personal email address with an identity. Now agents have the same.

927
00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:28.719
<v Speaker 4>So that kind of gives you the next step of

928
00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:32.840
<v Speaker 4>putting these guardrails around these agents to make sure they're not.

929
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:37.159
<v Speaker 2>And I hate to can't anthropomorphize on that because we've

930
00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:39.960
<v Speaker 2>also been giving applications identities as well for exactly the

931
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:41.760
<v Speaker 2>same reason, yesh, right, But.

932
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:45.599
<v Speaker 4>For agents it was it was more it was harder

933
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:48.960
<v Speaker 4>to achieve this and it was not really like dedicated

934
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:52.000
<v Speaker 4>to the model model, like you had to kind of

935
00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:54.280
<v Speaker 4>configure it that way. But in this case, it's like

936
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:58.599
<v Speaker 4>fully dedicated to this agent, let's say. But again I

937
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.559
<v Speaker 4>did not work on that, so I need to defer

938
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:03.639
<v Speaker 4>that to my colleagues. But I think that's a good

939
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:05.480
<v Speaker 4>step forward for security as well.

940
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:07.440
<v Speaker 1>Tom, is there anything that we missed, anything else you

941
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:09.000
<v Speaker 1>want to talk about before we wrap it up?

942
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:13.800
<v Speaker 4>No, So if somebody is interested. We have a blog

943
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:16.400
<v Speaker 4>post which we can maybe onto the show notes where

944
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:20.800
<v Speaker 4>you can sign up to use these sustainability capabilities. There's

945
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:25.840
<v Speaker 4>a ton of announcements from Mignite. We also shift some

946
00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:28.840
<v Speaker 4>of the AI capabilities which you can find on the blogs.

947
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:31.480
<v Speaker 4>But if you have any questions, just reach out to

948
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:34.159
<v Speaker 4>me on LinkedIn. Happy to excellent answer.

949
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:36.639
<v Speaker 1>Your question, Tom. Thanks, It's always interesting when we talk

950
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:38.880
<v Speaker 1>and this was no different. Thanks very much.

951
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.320
<v Speaker 4>Thank you very much. Have a good day many all.

952
00:51:41.239 --> 00:52:00.320
<v Speaker 1>Right, we'll talk to you next time on dot net rocks.

953
00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:07.239
<v Speaker 1>Dot net rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net

954
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:11.280
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955
00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:15.440
<v Speaker 1>and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut,

956
00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:20.480
<v Speaker 1>and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

957
00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:22.800
<v Speaker 1>Visit our website at d O T N E t

958
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:27.079
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959
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:30.880
<v Speaker 1>mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

960
00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:34.320
<v Speaker 1>back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

961
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:37.000
<v Speaker 1>and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors.

962
00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:40.119
<v Speaker 1>They keep us in business. Now go write some code,

963
00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:44.039
<v Speaker 1>see you next time. You got Javans