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<v Speaker 5>You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking

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<v Speaker 5>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 5>written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every

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<v Speaker 5>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 5>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

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<v Speaker 5>host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good Evening, November twenty twelve.

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<v Speaker 5>Carrie Lee Farber vanished from Omaha, Nebraska, Carey thirty seven.

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<v Speaker 5>Was a devoted mother, reliable employee and loyal friend, and

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<v Speaker 5>not the type to shirk responsibilities, abandoned her son and

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<v Speaker 5>run off while her dying father took his last breaths.

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<v Speaker 2>It appeared that Carrie had dumped her new boyfriend, quit

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<v Speaker 2>her job, and relinquished custody of her son to her

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<v Speaker 2>mother and all by text. While Carrie's boyfriend, Dave Crupa,

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<v Speaker 2>and her supervisor were bewildered by her abrupt disappearance, they

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<v Speaker 2>accepted the text at face value. Her mother, Nancy Rainey,

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<v Speaker 2>was alarmed and reported Carrie missing. Police were skepticicle of

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<v Speaker 2>her claims that a cyber impostor had commandeered her daughter's

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<v Speaker 2>phone and online identity. While Nancy was afraid for Carrie,

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<v Speaker 2>Dave Crupa was growing afraid of her, for he believed

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<v Speaker 2>Carrie was stalking him. Never seen or heard, the stalker

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<v Speaker 2>was aware of his every move and seemed obsessed with

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<v Speaker 2>his casual girlfriend, Shanna Liz Goler, often calling her a

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<v Speaker 2>fat horror in the twelve thousand emails in texts he

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<v Speaker 2>received in a disturbing three year deluge, How did the

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<v Speaker 2>stalker know Dave's phone numbers immediately after he changed them,

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<v Speaker 2>the names of his lady friends, even what he wore

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<v Speaker 2>as he watched TV. He and Liz reported death threats, vandalism,

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<v Speaker 2>and burglaries, but the stalker remained at large. The threats

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<v Speaker 2>for vicious, vile, and often obscene, and sent mostly via text,

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<v Speaker 2>and always in Carrie's name. There was some truth in

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<v Speaker 2>the messages, but all one big lie. The culprit was

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<v Speaker 2>not Carrie. With mesmerizing detail and narrative skill, Leslie Rule

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<v Speaker 2>tracks every step of the heart pounding path to justice,

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<v Speaker 2>from a sociopaths twisted past to the deadly deception and

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<v Speaker 2>the high tech forensics that condemned this Killer to prison.

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<v Speaker 2>The book that were featuring this evening is a tangled Web,

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<v Speaker 2>a cyberstalker, a deadly obsession, and the twisting path to

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<v Speaker 2>justice with my special guest, journalist and author Leslie Rule.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>this interview.

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<v Speaker 3>Leslie Rule, Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Dan, thank you so much. And congratulations. I know you

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<v Speaker 2>were a nonfiction and fictional writer before this, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is congratulations your true crime debut.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about, as you do in the introduction, how

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<v Speaker 2>you came to be involved in true crime. How you,

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<v Speaker 2>being Anne Rule's daughter, first got into the we'll say

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<v Speaker 2>the business. You talk about being a photographer, being in school.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell us about your first job as photographer and research assistant,

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<v Speaker 2>as you do in the book. Tell us a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit about this.

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<v Speaker 3>Well. I was seventeen when I started going with my

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<v Speaker 3>mom to trials to photograph the killers for her articles.

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<v Speaker 3>Later they were it was for her books, but in

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<v Speaker 3>the beginning she was writing articles for magazines. So it

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<v Speaker 3>was a little bit nerve racking my camera and point

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<v Speaker 3>it in their face. I got a lot of icy glares,

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<v Speaker 3>but it was also very interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>This occupation that you have. Your mother also came to

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<v Speaker 2>this honestly as well with her grandparents. As you write,

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<v Speaker 2>tell us about your grandparents and their little mom and

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<v Speaker 2>pop jail and what that led to in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>the interest for your mother in terms of crime and

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<v Speaker 2>true crime.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it was a My mother's grandparents were a powerful

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<v Speaker 3>influence on her. They lived in Stanton, Michigan, and they

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<v Speaker 3>ran the mom Pa Jail there. Her grandfather was the sheriff,

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<v Speaker 3>a sheriff Chris Hansen, and from the time she was

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<v Speaker 3>a little girl, she spent her summers there and she

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<v Speaker 3>would sometimes watch her grandfather work. There were all other

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<v Speaker 3>people in the family uncle, who were also under sheriff,

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<v Speaker 3>and she would east drop and soak it all in,

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<v Speaker 3>and she found it fascinating. She'd thinking, how do they

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<v Speaker 3>take how do they take a button and trace it

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<v Speaker 3>back to a killer? And this sparked her interest from

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<v Speaker 3>the time she was really really young and her grandmother

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<v Speaker 3>took for the prince prisoners and one of them taught

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<v Speaker 3>her how to knit, and my mom thought she seemed

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<v Speaker 3>like such a nice lady. But she was in jail

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<v Speaker 3>waiting trial for murder, and my mom didn't quite get it.

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<v Speaker 3>Viola was the woman's name, and she explained it to

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<v Speaker 3>my mother. She said, well, it was just to file

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<v Speaker 3>the homicide. She had caught her husband in the arms

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<v Speaker 3>of her best friend in the truck. She had bought

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<v Speaker 3>her husband with tips seemed waitressing, so she shot him

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<v Speaker 3>and felt it was justified. And my mom didn't really

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<v Speaker 3>get it. It didn't make sense to her. So that

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<v Speaker 3>was her first encounter with a deadly sociopath and it

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<v Speaker 3>really sparked a lifelong interest for her.

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<v Speaker 2>You're right that her dream was of being a police

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<v Speaker 2>officer was fulfilled and she did at twenty eight years

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<v Speaker 2>old Seattle Police Department. But you tell us that, go ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, she it was her dream job and she wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to be a police officer more than email. Officers had

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<v Speaker 3>to wear skirts and heal and they weren't allowed to

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<v Speaker 3>carry guns. Can you imagine after a criminal in a

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<v Speaker 3>skirt and heel. So she was on the job of

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<v Speaker 3>about eight months and then the yearly physical came around

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<v Speaker 3>and without her glasses, she was legally blind, and she

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<v Speaker 3>took the eye test and she couldn't see the biggie

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<v Speaker 3>even when she was allowed to creep up really close

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<v Speaker 3>to the chart because the examiner he felt so sorry

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<v Speaker 3>for her, she still couldn't see it, so she lost

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<v Speaker 3>her job. The thinking was that if her glass has

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<v Speaker 3>gotten hooked up in the struggle, she wouldn't be able

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<v Speaker 3>to defend herself. I thought it was all right for

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<v Speaker 3>her to wear a skirt keeled and not have it done,

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<v Speaker 3>but I guess they didn't like the idea of her

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<v Speaker 3>losing her glasses on top of all of that. So

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<v Speaker 3>that was absolutely devastating for her. She wanted it more

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<v Speaker 3>than anything, and she said she couldn't drive by the

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<v Speaker 3>little police department for years. She said, detailurs just because

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<v Speaker 3>it broke her heart. And then a few years later

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<v Speaker 3>she started writing articles to support the family and was

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<v Speaker 3>welcome back to the police department and hung out in

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<v Speaker 3>the homeside department and her old friends opened their files

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<v Speaker 3>to her, and that's how she started her career as

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<v Speaker 3>a crime writer.

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<v Speaker 2>Now at the same time she's a successful writer, you're

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<v Speaker 2>taking photos assisting her in court, and you're her research

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<v Speaker 2>assistant as well. Talk about and volunteering for a suicide

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<v Speaker 2>crisis center. Why is that? What was the personal experience

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<v Speaker 2>that led her to that? And who did she meet

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<v Speaker 2>working at this crisis center.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, one of the most devastating things that ever happened

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<v Speaker 3>to my mom in her entire life was the loss

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<v Speaker 3>of her younger brother, her only sibling, to suicide, and

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<v Speaker 3>she never got over it. She had tried to talk

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<v Speaker 3>him out of this depression, wasn't able to then. They

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<v Speaker 3>didn't have medication like they do today. He was a

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<v Speaker 3>medical student and he was actually very smart, and that

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<v Speaker 3>he didn't think he was doing well enough and he

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<v Speaker 3>took his own life. So this was before I was born,

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<v Speaker 3>and it was a few years after she had kids

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<v Speaker 3>that a nonprofit group started the Seattle Christ's Clinic and

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<v Speaker 3>it was a hotline for troubled people to call. And

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<v Speaker 3>she thought, well, I couldn't help my brother, maybe I

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<v Speaker 3>can help someone else. So she went through the program

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<v Speaker 3>and was trained and they would put people together in

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<v Speaker 3>teens of two, and so she was teamed up with

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<v Speaker 3>who she thought was a very nice young man. His

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<v Speaker 3>name was Ted Bundy, and together she and Tad worked

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<v Speaker 3>the hotlines and saved many lives. Back then, if somebody

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<v Speaker 3>called in and they were in the process of taking

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<v Speaker 3>their own life, maybe purgency services couldn't get to them

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<v Speaker 3>as quickly as they could today because they had to

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<v Speaker 3>trace the call. I mean it could take over an hour,

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<v Speaker 3>and this was in the nineteen seventies. So they would wait,

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<v Speaker 3>they'd be talking to the person. Sometimes the person would

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<v Speaker 3>pass out prey soon somebody would pick up the phone

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<v Speaker 3>and say it's okay, or here, we got them and

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<v Speaker 3>we save them. And so that was that was very

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<v Speaker 3>satisfying for her because she wasn't able to help her brother,

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<v Speaker 3>but she kept Bundy receiving the lives of many other people.

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<v Speaker 3>And she actually found out later that on the ship

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<v Speaker 3>that he worked by himself, that he would turn off

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<v Speaker 3>the phone a nap, so he really wasn't okay. I

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<v Speaker 3>think the compassion he showed was all en app right.

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<v Speaker 2>Now. Interestingly, your mother was offered a book deal, and

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<v Speaker 2>she got to that point where they said, listen, you

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<v Speaker 2>can get a book deal. There's some murders in this area.

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<v Speaker 2>If this person is apprehended, then you get this book deal.

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<v Speaker 2>And sure enough, this person that she thought her friend

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<v Speaker 2>was the subject of this man hunt. And later she

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<v Speaker 2>wrote through groundbreaking true crime classic Stranger Beside Me, And

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<v Speaker 2>as you write, she didn't let this go to her head.

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<v Speaker 2>She just had a modest lifestyle, and you inherited a

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<v Speaker 2>fascination for dark mysteries. But you wanted to carve out

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<v Speaker 2>your own niche. You wanted to carve out your own niche,

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<v Speaker 2>so you didn't do the true crime route. Tell us

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<v Speaker 2>what you start writing.

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<v Speaker 3>About, well, I write about the pair of normal. I

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<v Speaker 3>have four nonfiction books, a ghosts on top of introducing

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<v Speaker 3>me to the serial killer when I was fourteen, my

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<v Speaker 3>mother also raised me in a haunted house, so it

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<v Speaker 3>was kind of a spooky childhood. But I was fascinated

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<v Speaker 3>by other worldly things. I actually, when I was a child,

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<v Speaker 3>I was afraid, but as an adult I just found

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<v Speaker 3>it really interesting and actually very reassuring to find signs

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<v Speaker 3>of life after death.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. Now, you say that killers have not changed, but

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<v Speaker 2>their methods have, and they now have an arsenal level

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<v Speaker 2>electronic devices that they can use to dupe people. But

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<v Speaker 2>you say they can outsmart them by learning their tricks.

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<v Speaker 2>You also write that one of the most important things

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<v Speaker 2>for your mother in her writing was she would save

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<v Speaker 2>people's lives potentially by showing them how disordinary people could be,

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<v Speaker 2>very much like Ted Bundy, a real actual threat without

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<v Speaker 2>them knowing. So she was most pleased. You say that

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<v Speaker 2>she could actually save lives as a process of her writing.

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<v Speaker 3>Didn't She yes, And she got quite a few letters

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<v Speaker 3>from people writing to say, your books saved my life.

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<v Speaker 3>They's got trouble coming and they recognize it because they

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<v Speaker 3>read about things like that in her books. And that

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<v Speaker 3>made her so happy. It was doing something very positive

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<v Speaker 3>because early on, when she first started writing about crime,

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<v Speaker 3>there was a lot of criticism. This was before it

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<v Speaker 3>was a popular genre. There really weren't in female was

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<v Speaker 3>writing about crime, and a lot of people criticized her

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<v Speaker 3>for writing about such a dark topic. So when she

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<v Speaker 3>got to a place where she realized that this was

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<v Speaker 3>really helping people and saving lives, she felt a whole

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<v Speaker 3>lot better about it because people shamed her about it.

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<v Speaker 3>How can you write about such horrible things?

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<v Speaker 2>Incredible? Times have changed. Now let's talk about your true

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<v Speaker 2>crime debut, A Tangled Web. You picked a incredible story,

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<v Speaker 2>fascinating story, but you say the predator in this case

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<v Speaker 2>used a different kind of web. Why call this book

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<v Speaker 2>a tangled web? What is it a metaphor for?

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<v Speaker 3>It's a metaphor for the worldwide web and also for

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<v Speaker 3>the sociopath who was so dangerous. Actually tangled kind of

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<v Speaker 3>a web around people with her manipulation, so it worked

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<v Speaker 3>both ways. Don't seemed like the perfect title for what

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<v Speaker 3>she did.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about that and introduce the characters. You talk

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<v Speaker 2>about Dave Krupa, you say liked women, didn't like commitment,

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<v Speaker 2>and just ended a twelve year relationship with a woman

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<v Speaker 2>named Amy Flora and they had two kids together, an

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<v Speaker 2>amicable split. And this is summer of twenty twelve. Tell

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<v Speaker 2>us what this Dave thirty four year old Dave Croupa,

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<v Speaker 2>healthy and attractive. He manages a high attire store. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a mechanic. Tell us a little bit about Dave Croupa

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<v Speaker 2>and his life.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, he's actually a very nice guy. He was heeared,

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<v Speaker 3>and he and his longtime partner had a couple of

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<v Speaker 3>kids together, and it just it's you know about half marriages.

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<v Speaker 3>Half of the marriages out there don't work. And then

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<v Speaker 3>they got to the point they actually didn't get married,

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<v Speaker 3>but they got to the point where their relationship lost

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<v Speaker 3>all esteem and they parted and it was very painful

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<v Speaker 3>for him and for Amy, but they remained friends. And

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<v Speaker 3>he was kind of lonely and he thought, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I've been in a committed relationship for years now. I

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<v Speaker 3>just want to have a little fun. I just want

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<v Speaker 3>to meet some interesting women and socialize a little bit,

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<v Speaker 3>and I just I'm not ready to be tied down.

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<v Speaker 3>So he went to a website called Plenty of Fish

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<v Speaker 3>and he signed up, and he started looking at the

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<v Speaker 3>profile of females in the area, and he done a

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<v Speaker 3>woman right away that she's found attractive and they was

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<v Speaker 3>blizh and they met for a coffee date. He didn't

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<v Speaker 3>know what he'd gotten into.

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<v Speaker 2>His philosophy was that he just got to have a

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<v Speaker 2>long term relationship. So he had said to her that listen,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want a commitment. I just want to have

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<v Speaker 2>some fun. What was her response to that request.

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<v Speaker 3>She seemed like she felt the same way. She smiled

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<v Speaker 3>and nodded and agreed, and he thought that that's what

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<v Speaker 3>the arrangement was. Unfortunately, she got very possessed up very quickly,

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<v Speaker 3>and she wanted all his time, and he was very

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<v Speaker 3>uncomfortable with that. And he told her I'm going to

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<v Speaker 3>continue to date, and he did, but she that did

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<v Speaker 3>discourage her. She still suckle out. She still kept coming around.

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<v Speaker 2>He actually went as far as to soon while in

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<v Speaker 2>this relationship, not like really conversing whether, but he really

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<v Speaker 2>did enjoy the sex. He thought she was kinky and

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<v Speaker 2>they had but he did say to her, listen, I

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<v Speaker 2>at some point I don't love you, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to love you. He said, is as firm as

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<v Speaker 2>he could that he did not want have an exclusive relationship,

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<v Speaker 2>and then he would continue dating. But despite that, what

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<v Speaker 2>did she do and what did she continue to do?

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<v Speaker 3>In the beginning, she was kind of about her desire

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<v Speaker 3>to be with him exclusively, but as time went on,

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<v Speaker 3>she started to nag him about it, and she actually

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<v Speaker 3>became obsessed with the idea that he was hooking up

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<v Speaker 3>with his ex when he went to pick up his kids.

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<v Speaker 3>He was not doing that. Their relationship was over and

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<v Speaker 3>they're simply they've become friends. They were kids together, but

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<v Speaker 3>she would not believe that, and she was obsessed with that.

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<v Speaker 3>And if he had a date, she would call say, hey,

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00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:10.319
<v Speaker 3>you want to get together tonight, and he was very

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00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.799
<v Speaker 3>upfront and saying, no, I can't. I've got a date tonight,

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00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.000
<v Speaker 3>And he'd come home from work and she'd be sitting

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00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:19.000
<v Speaker 3>there waiting for him, and then she would seduce him,

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00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.400
<v Speaker 3>thinking that maybe she's going to wear him out and

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00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:25.519
<v Speaker 3>he wouldn't be interested in anyone else. But he said

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00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:27.519
<v Speaker 3>it didn't slow him down. He was guy in his

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00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.480
<v Speaker 3>thirties and so pretty healthy. He didn't even realize in

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00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:32.400
<v Speaker 3>the beginning what she was doing. It took a few

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00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.519
<v Speaker 3>times before he realized, well, wait a minute, she's trying

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<v Speaker 3>to wear me out.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>So she did everything she could courage him from seeing

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00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.920
<v Speaker 3>other women, but it didn't work in regard to his idea,

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<v Speaker 3>his statement about that he didn't want to be committed.

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<v Speaker 2>Despite that, she proposed a four week commitment trial to

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00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.839
<v Speaker 2>see where the relationship would go. Again. Unfortunately, he agreed,

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<v Speaker 2>well this trial, this.

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<v Speaker 3>For weekheartedly agreed just to shut her up. They've been

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00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:09.119
<v Speaker 3>dating for about five six months, and she started writing

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00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.720
<v Speaker 3>him texts suggesting that they commit to for four weeks,

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00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:15.160
<v Speaker 3>and she thought that maybe at the end of four

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00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.160
<v Speaker 3>weeks he'd be ready for a real commitment. And the

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<v Speaker 3>first time she suggested it to him, he said no,

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<v Speaker 3>forget it, and she kept bringing it up, and finally,

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<v Speaker 3>just to shut her up, you yeah, yeah, whatever. But

325
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.599
<v Speaker 3>he was so busy then he really wasn't seeing anybody else.

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<v Speaker 3>At that point, he had his kids, he had his job,

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00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:37.559
<v Speaker 3>he had time with her, but he didn't want to

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<v Speaker 3>be committed to her. And at the end of those

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00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:43.440
<v Speaker 3>four weeks, he actually did go on a date with

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<v Speaker 3>a woman he met on who he was very attracted to,

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<v Speaker 3>and that was Carrie Farber.

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<v Speaker 2>They met at work, and you say that they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>meet online, but he was reluctant to approach her at work.

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<v Speaker 2>But two weeks later he saw her profile and plenty

335
00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.119
<v Speaker 2>of fish. They contacted each other and she came back

336
00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:05.359
<v Speaker 2>into the shop and there's some premise and the exchange

337
00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:10.359
<v Speaker 2>numbers and they start going out. Yes, Now, what did

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00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Liz do when she found out about Carrie Farvar?

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00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:18.039
<v Speaker 3>She was pretty upset. On the very first day, Dave

340
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.799
<v Speaker 3>and Carry met for dinner and they sat down and

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00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:26.039
<v Speaker 3>they were enjoying each other's company and laughing and having drinks,

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00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.079
<v Speaker 3>and all of a sudden, his phone started to blow

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00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.359
<v Speaker 3>up and it just went on and on. It got

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00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:34.039
<v Speaker 3>like twenty messages in like five minutes, and finally he thought, well,

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00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:36.599
<v Speaker 3>something serious has got to be going on. So he

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00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:42.480
<v Speaker 3>excused himself and went and called Liz back and asked

347
00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:45.519
<v Speaker 3>her what was up. And she said, I need to

348
00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:48.400
<v Speaker 3>get some things I left take your apartments. And she

349
00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:52.559
<v Speaker 3>insisted that she goes right then and pick up Oh

350
00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.519
<v Speaker 3>it was like his shirt and the tooth brush and

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00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:58.799
<v Speaker 3>some pots and pans and some things that she really

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00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:01.480
<v Speaker 3>normally didn't care about. And he said, no, I'm not

353
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:03.359
<v Speaker 3>going to do that. I'm on a date. You leave

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<v Speaker 3>me alone. So he and Cherry finished their dinner and

355
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:10.480
<v Speaker 3>they went to his apartment. They're going to just kind

356
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:13.680
<v Speaker 3>of hang out and watch TV or play cards, but no,

357
00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:17.039
<v Speaker 3>sooner had the enter the apartment when the buzzer on

358
00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:21.000
<v Speaker 3>the security door starts going off. And he could ignore

359
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.319
<v Speaker 3>the cell phone but not that so he couldn't talk

360
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.160
<v Speaker 3>to Live through the intercom because it was broken. So

361
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:30.400
<v Speaker 3>he went out to the door and she was standing

362
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<v Speaker 3>there with tears streaming down her face, insisting that she

363
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:37.400
<v Speaker 3>had to come in right then and I'm getting get

364
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.519
<v Speaker 3>her stuff, and he just gave up. You aren't any mean,

365
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.400
<v Speaker 3>told Jerry said, I'm sorry, but I have a situation

366
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<v Speaker 3>here and this other woman I'm dating is upset and

367
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:48.960
<v Speaker 3>she has a really good sport about it, and Jerry,

368
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:51.920
<v Speaker 3>that's okay. You know, we've both been there. Let me

369
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<v Speaker 3>know when you get it worked out. So she left

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<v Speaker 3>and Liz came in and wanted to get into an

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<v Speaker 3>argument with Dad. Now he just wanted her to go.

372
00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.079
<v Speaker 3>He was really frustrated because of his date with Cherry

373
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.160
<v Speaker 3>was ruined and now he had Liz up set. And

374
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:14.000
<v Speaker 3>finally she left and he Cherry and she invited him

375
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<v Speaker 3>to her place. So they actually ended up having you know,

376
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.759
<v Speaker 3>a nice date that first night together, and they hung

377
00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.640
<v Speaker 3>out at Terry Sauce. But I don't hello it is Ryan.

378
00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:27.160
<v Speaker 4>And I was on a flight the other day playing

379
00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:30.079
<v Speaker 4>one of my favorite social spin slot games on chumbacasino

380
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381
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<v Speaker 4>You know what they were doing. They were also playing

382
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383
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387
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<v Speaker 4>Casino dot com and live the chumber line.

388
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<v Speaker 1>No We're necessary dally Rood where every by lost in

389
00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:54.880
<v Speaker 1>terms of conditions eighteen plus.

390
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.559
<v Speaker 3>I think they were alone. I think there was probably

391
00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:00.440
<v Speaker 3>someone working outside quitball them.

392
00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:05.920
<v Speaker 2>You talk about that. Liz was also adamant that now

393
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:09.799
<v Speaker 2>on November tenth, she asked if they could get together sometime,

394
00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:13.559
<v Speaker 2>but also that she was had some pots and pans

395
00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:16.319
<v Speaker 2>at the house, so he offered instead of her coming over,

396
00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.480
<v Speaker 2>for him to deliver those. When he delivered those pots

397
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:21.319
<v Speaker 2>and pans, what happened.

398
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.960
<v Speaker 3>He barely made it in the door, and she excused him,

399
00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:31.200
<v Speaker 3>and he said, hey, you know, one last time, you know,

400
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:33.119
<v Speaker 3>almost like goodbuye and you know, have a little fun.

401
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.720
<v Speaker 3>And he and Cherry were not in a committed relationship.

402
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.039
<v Speaker 3>She felt the way he did that she wasn't ready

403
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.279
<v Speaker 3>to be tied down. So it wasn't as if he

404
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:46.720
<v Speaker 3>was cheating on Carrie. And he thought that that would

405
00:22:46.759 --> 00:22:50.519
<v Speaker 3>be it. He thought that that would be the end. Unfortunately,

406
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.839
<v Speaker 3>she wasn't ready. Liz was not ready to let go.

407
00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>It was interesting too that shortly after there was a

408
00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.400
<v Speaker 2>man named Sam Carver. We're talking about Facebook now. He

409
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.640
<v Speaker 2>asked to be Carrie Farver's friend on Facebook. And they

410
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:06.839
<v Speaker 2>were from a small place. Macedonia is very small she

411
00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:09.519
<v Speaker 2>didn't know him. She contact and said do I know you?

412
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:13.000
<v Speaker 2>And he said, well, I know you. But what was

413
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.839
<v Speaker 2>interesting is, and this will be important later he spelled Macedonia,

414
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.480
<v Speaker 2>the place he lived in incorrectly.

415
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:23.599
<v Speaker 3>Yes. Yes, And that was a little suspicious to her,

416
00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:29.680
<v Speaker 3>and she didn't accept or reject his friend request. I

417
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.359
<v Speaker 3>think she was ruling them around.

418
00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.599
<v Speaker 2>Now, this relationship with Dave and Carrie is going at

419
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:37.599
<v Speaker 2>a pretty good pace. They're really enjoying each other and

420
00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:40.759
<v Speaker 2>they're staying with each other. There was a situation where

421
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:42.720
<v Speaker 2>she wanted to stay at the apartment. She had a

422
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.759
<v Speaker 2>big job and she'd be closer to her work, and

423
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:49.759
<v Speaker 2>her son Maxwell stayed with her with her mother Nancy.

424
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.680
<v Speaker 2>This had only been two weeks since her first date

425
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:57.519
<v Speaker 2>with Dave. Now we're talking about Tuesday, November thirteenth, twenty twelve.

426
00:23:58.119 --> 00:23:59.799
<v Speaker 2>She got up early and Dave had to be worked

427
00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:04.559
<v Speaker 2>for six thirty. She was a computer coder at this

428
00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:07.359
<v Speaker 2>West corporation, so she got up early and did some

429
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:12.279
<v Speaker 2>coding for work. What happens later when Carrie is supposed

430
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:13.119
<v Speaker 2>to show up at work.

431
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.759
<v Speaker 3>What happens, Well, she doesn't show up, and they were

432
00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:19.799
<v Speaker 3>right in the middle of a big project, and her

433
00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:24.759
<v Speaker 3>supervisor was surprised because Carrie was very dependable, and so

434
00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.599
<v Speaker 3>she called and there was no answer, and she kept

435
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.759
<v Speaker 3>calling all day and there was no work from her

436
00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:31.079
<v Speaker 3>at all.

437
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:35.880
<v Speaker 2>InCred Well, what about Carrie's mom, Nancy, she was taking

438
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:38.720
<v Speaker 2>care of her son. What happened? She hasn't heard for

439
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:39.839
<v Speaker 2>a couple of days.

440
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:45.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Nancy was very concerned because she talked to Carrie

441
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.160
<v Speaker 3>almost every day. They were very, very close, and all

442
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.359
<v Speaker 3>of a sudden, she's getting these texts that are coming

443
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.400
<v Speaker 3>from Carrie's number, and they don't really sound like Carrie.

444
00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:02.519
<v Speaker 3>For one thing, Carrie was meticulous us with grammar and punctuation,

445
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:06.000
<v Speaker 3>and she would never send a text until it was perfect.

446
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:09.400
<v Speaker 3>And so suddenly here come these texts with these these

447
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:14.680
<v Speaker 3>misspelled words and really come not Cherry style at all.

448
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.200
<v Speaker 3>And she's saying that she's going to quit her job

449
00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.559
<v Speaker 3>and move away. And her mother was really shocked to

450
00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:24.160
<v Speaker 3>hear that. She wasn't quite sure what was going on.

451
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.200
<v Speaker 2>She called police, did police she showed them the text?

452
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.240
<v Speaker 2>What did police have to say about her concerns?

453
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:36.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, they were they were polite, but they didn't think

454
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:40.759
<v Speaker 3>it was really caused or alarm, and really most of

455
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:45.200
<v Speaker 3>the time when adults are reported missing, they were okay.

456
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:48.200
<v Speaker 3>So it was sort of a logical conclusion for them

457
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.720
<v Speaker 3>because they didn't really know Nancy and they didn't know that,

458
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.839
<v Speaker 3>you know, she wasn't want to raise an alarm without cause.

459
00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:00.839
<v Speaker 3>And they politely took the information, but they didn't at

460
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:04.480
<v Speaker 3>that point to any deep investigation did. They checked out

461
00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:09.440
<v Speaker 3>a few things, and they soon learned that some vandalism

462
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:13.759
<v Speaker 3>had been reported in Omaha and that Carrie was being

463
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:17.559
<v Speaker 3>blamed for that. So they thought that maybe Carrie looked

464
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.039
<v Speaker 3>out told her mother, you know, we see this all

465
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:24.279
<v Speaker 3>the time, people stopped kicking their meds, you know, and

466
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:26.880
<v Speaker 3>they lose it, and she probably does how to break down,

467
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.079
<v Speaker 3>and her set didn't sound right to her mother, but

468
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.079
<v Speaker 3>she wanted to believe it was that because the other

469
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:35.079
<v Speaker 3>things she was thinking were so much worse.

470
00:26:35.559 --> 00:26:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Right at the same time, unbeknownst to Nancy and Dave

471
00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:47.279
<v Speaker 2>is receiving texts apparently from Carrie. What kind of messages

472
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.920
<v Speaker 2>is he getting and what is he noticing in terms

473
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:52.559
<v Speaker 2>of spelling and grammar as well?

474
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.519
<v Speaker 3>Well. Dave left Cherrie at his apartment that first morning,

475
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.799
<v Speaker 3>and she's not a comfort her and he went to

476
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.400
<v Speaker 3>work and mid morning he got a text from her

477
00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:09.200
<v Speaker 3>saying let's move in together. And that struck him as

478
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:11.480
<v Speaker 3>odd because he made such a point with her that

479
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:13.960
<v Speaker 3>he wanted to be free and he thought she felt

480
00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:16.839
<v Speaker 3>the same, and so he said, no, we were not

481
00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:21.240
<v Speaker 3>going to do that, and he received back a very

482
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:25.319
<v Speaker 3>rude text basically breaking up with him. Done him because

483
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:29.559
<v Speaker 3>it really didn't sound like Carrie. But heret the message

484
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.319
<v Speaker 3>came from her phone, and at that point he didn't

485
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:35.400
<v Speaker 3>he didn't question it. He just thought, well, maybe I

486
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:37.920
<v Speaker 3>didn't know whose lady as well as I thought, because

487
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.319
<v Speaker 3>they'd been dating a couple of weeks and people are

488
00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:44.160
<v Speaker 3>on their best behavior in the beginning, and so he

489
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.920
<v Speaker 3>was kind of rattled by it, but he accepted it

490
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:50.200
<v Speaker 3>and he thought they'd broken up.

491
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Nancy had a different situation when she listened to these

492
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:58.839
<v Speaker 2>texts or read these texts, in that she just wanted

493
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:01.440
<v Speaker 2>to talk to her daughter. In that regard, what did

494
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:04.440
<v Speaker 2>she say to her daughter via those texts to try

495
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:06.480
<v Speaker 2>to elicit a response that she wanted.

496
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:08.759
<v Speaker 3>She said, I've really wanted to hear your voice. I

497
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:11.960
<v Speaker 3>need you to call you know, this isn't talking. I

498
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.359
<v Speaker 3>need to hear you, because she was doubting that it

499
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:17.799
<v Speaker 3>was Carrie. It didn't sound her daughter. It was a

500
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.920
<v Speaker 3>very spot coming in, we're very rude.

501
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:23.559
<v Speaker 2>One thing that they announced as well of the detective,

502
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:29.000
<v Speaker 2>our Deputy Sheriff Phillips is involved in another detective Ron Ambrose,

503
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.880
<v Speaker 2>the interview with workers that worked with Carrie, and they

504
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:35.880
<v Speaker 2>said no sign that she might have been thinking of

505
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:41.160
<v Speaker 2>leading or there was any problem whatsoever. Then Carrie's supervisor

506
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:45.519
<v Speaker 2>got a text. What was it said in that text?

507
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:50.240
<v Speaker 2>And then what was the recommendation apparently made by Carrie?

508
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:55.920
<v Speaker 3>The text said that Carrie was quitting without notice. It

509
00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:59.480
<v Speaker 3>was supposedly from Carrie. It came from her number and

510
00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:03.640
<v Speaker 3>said I'm and replacement over her name is is uh

511
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:08.160
<v Speaker 3>Shanna Golier, Janna loves. They thought that was odd because

512
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.440
<v Speaker 3>you don't name your own replacement. Was it was a

513
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:15.920
<v Speaker 3>They have a very grueling hiring process. It involves a

514
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.359
<v Speaker 3>lot of interviews. People have to be qualified, and they

515
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:23.200
<v Speaker 3>they they're not hired by a friend or by somebody

516
00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:26.200
<v Speaker 3>who you know who's quittings. So they thought it was

517
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:29.799
<v Speaker 3>really strange, you know. They they hadn't Carrie had worked

518
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:33.240
<v Speaker 3>he for a few months and they hadn't known her

519
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:35.880
<v Speaker 3>all that long. From what they knew of her, she

520
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:39.599
<v Speaker 3>was really responsible and a good worker, but nobody knew

521
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.119
<v Speaker 3>her as well. Her family did, as well as her

522
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:46.200
<v Speaker 3>mother did her. Her mother and son were the only

523
00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:51.319
<v Speaker 3>ones who are initially really alarmed, and also her her stepfather,

524
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:54.400
<v Speaker 3>the people who knew her the best. But the rest

525
00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:57.920
<v Speaker 3>of the world seemed to be bored with the idea

526
00:29:58.039 --> 00:29:59.240
<v Speaker 3>that she just flipped out.

527
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:04.279
<v Speaker 2>To add credence to this these texts, she also or

528
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:10.319
<v Speaker 2>the Carrie apparently also texted Deputy Phillips what did she

529
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:14.319
<v Speaker 2>What did she say in that text to Deputy Phillips.

530
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:19.480
<v Speaker 3>Well, when the detectives, you know, started nosing around in Omaha,

531
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:25.000
<v Speaker 3>they talked today they actually came up with the name

532
00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:31.000
<v Speaker 3>was Golier because Nancy Raey had received a photograph of

533
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:35.559
<v Speaker 3>a check for five thousand dollars from Simmar named his Gowlier,

534
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.960
<v Speaker 3>and it came from Cherry's phone and it said, Hey, Mom,

535
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.160
<v Speaker 3>I sold my furniture. I want you to let this

536
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:46.039
<v Speaker 3>person in the house to come get my stuff, and

537
00:30:46.599 --> 00:30:51.759
<v Speaker 3>Nancy refused. So because they had this name, the detectives

538
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:55.920
<v Speaker 3>did go to Liza's house. They left a message for her,

539
00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:59.680
<v Speaker 3>and Liz called them back and said, yes, there's this

540
00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:03.480
<v Speaker 3>little then flipped out and you know, she's stalking Moose

541
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.519
<v Speaker 3>and broke into my garage and she stole on my

542
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:11.480
<v Speaker 3>checks and you know, she wrote on the wall. And

543
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.160
<v Speaker 3>so the detective thought, well, this confirms what we've been

544
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.559
<v Speaker 3>thinking as Carrie has flipped out, And then they went

545
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.319
<v Speaker 3>and talked with Daves. And shortly after that the detective

546
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.319
<v Speaker 3>actually been trying to reach Carrie and was calling her

547
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:29.759
<v Speaker 3>phone and he got a text message saying that, you know,

548
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.519
<v Speaker 3>I wanted to leave day alone. My mother ever reacted,

549
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:38.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, I'm bye blah blah blah, so that she like, yeah,

550
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:40.839
<v Speaker 3>and sence she was. She said some kind of the

551
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.200
<v Speaker 3>text said some kind of threatening things about Liz. So

552
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.799
<v Speaker 3>the police thought, wow, Carrie seems like she's you know,

553
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:52.519
<v Speaker 3>she's really aggressive toward live. We better warn live. So

554
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:56.000
<v Speaker 3>they told Liz, well, maybe you should get a restraining order.

555
00:31:56.359 --> 00:31:58.920
<v Speaker 3>And they wondered, you know, this could be a dangerous situation.

556
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:01.759
<v Speaker 3>They didn't Cherry, you know, they didn't know that she

557
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:06.200
<v Speaker 3>was a kind, thoughtful person who had never hurt anybody

558
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:09.000
<v Speaker 3>in her life. All they knew was what they were

559
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:13.839
<v Speaker 3>hearing from Nancy and Terrie's moms. And of course the

560
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.200
<v Speaker 3>mother is always going to say there's things about their kids.

561
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:20.160
<v Speaker 3>So I think the priest don't take what parents say

562
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:23.880
<v Speaker 3>at face value. And they're listening to Today and Liz

563
00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.200
<v Speaker 3>telling them about these food checks that they're receiving. So

564
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:31.279
<v Speaker 3>they accepted the idea that Dick Cherry was causing trouble.

565
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Let's Jesus as an opportunity. Leslie, just not for a

566
00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:37.400
<v Speaker 2>second to talk about our sponsor, which is ritual. We

567
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:39.000
<v Speaker 2>all want to do the right thing to keep our

568
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:41.599
<v Speaker 2>bodies healthy in the long run, but even if we

569
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:45.039
<v Speaker 2>try really hard to eat kale salads and drink green smoothies,

570
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:48.400
<v Speaker 2>we're still most likely not getting all of the essential

571
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:52.200
<v Speaker 2>nutrients we need on a daily basis. Enter Ritual the

572
00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:57.440
<v Speaker 2>obsessively researched vitamin for women. Rituals Essentials have the nutrients

573
00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:00.160
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574
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575
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:06.440
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576
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.400
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577
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.960
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578
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:17.839
<v Speaker 2>Lisa's been taking Ritual for almost three months now. She

579
00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:21.200
<v Speaker 2>loves that there's no stores she needs to visit, and

580
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:26.039
<v Speaker 2>she really respected Ritual's research into creating this vitamin. She's

581
00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:29.599
<v Speaker 2>very impressed and she feels rituals helping her feel better

582
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:33.559
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583
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:36.720
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584
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.839
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585
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586
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<v Speaker 2>there's a mint tab in every bottle that keep things

587
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588
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589
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590
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591
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592
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593
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594
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.519
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595
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596
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:18.519
<v Speaker 2>ritual dot com slash murder to start your Ritual today.

597
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:22.199
<v Speaker 2>That's ten percent off during your first three months at

598
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:28.039
<v Speaker 2>ritual dot com. Slash murder. Now, Leslie, we have this

599
00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:32.599
<v Speaker 2>situation where the police believe that Carrie isn't taking her

600
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:36.000
<v Speaker 2>meds and that she's having a breakdown, and that Liz

601
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:41.440
<v Speaker 2>is in danger, and they believe the ruse that this stalker,

602
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:46.239
<v Speaker 2>this person is putting forth. What happens next in terms

603
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:50.599
<v Speaker 2>of the escalation of the texts from Liz and the

604
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:55.400
<v Speaker 2>relationship that she's trying to force upon Dave, how does

605
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:56.559
<v Speaker 2>that fair?

606
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:01.800
<v Speaker 3>Well? Actually, thousands and thousands text and emails are sent,

607
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:05.920
<v Speaker 3>and over the next years in Live and Dave had

608
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.719
<v Speaker 3>had parted ways, and because she was so upset about

609
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:12.880
<v Speaker 3>Terry that now they were bonding because they were both

610
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:17.199
<v Speaker 3>seemingly be stopped by a crazy person, and so they

611
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:20.079
<v Speaker 3>started seeing each other again. And Liz told them, oh,

612
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.800
<v Speaker 3>she's you know, she's scared, and you know, why come?

613
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.480
<v Speaker 3>You know, I'm so scared of this pratty woman is

614
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:28.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, after me? And why couldn't you have just

615
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:31.440
<v Speaker 3>been satisfied with what you had? You had to go

616
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.880
<v Speaker 3>and buy this lunatic into our lives? And and Day

617
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:38.360
<v Speaker 3>felt horrible because she thought, well, look, what I've done.

618
00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:41.800
<v Speaker 3>You know, I dated somebody who's causing problems for the

619
00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:46.079
<v Speaker 3>people I know, because she also thought the stocker was

620
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:51.880
<v Speaker 3>actually also sending messages to Amy his ax, and some

621
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:56.320
<v Speaker 3>of the messages were really threatening. He got worried about

622
00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:58.719
<v Speaker 3>his kids, I mean his kids. I would come over

623
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:02.679
<v Speaker 3>and watched them very very carefully, even though they were older,

624
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:05.880
<v Speaker 3>they were preteens. That he got very worried because it

625
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:10.079
<v Speaker 3>seemed like that somebody with a screw loose was set

626
00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:11.639
<v Speaker 3>on pausing him harm.

627
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:15.840
<v Speaker 2>At the same time that he would have problems with Liz,

628
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:19.719
<v Speaker 2>and again her jealousy would come to the forefront, so

629
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:22.239
<v Speaker 2>he would they would take a pause in their relationship.

630
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.320
<v Speaker 2>He continued to date and meet women online. Those women

631
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:32.000
<v Speaker 2>that he met what was characterized by soon after he

632
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:35.519
<v Speaker 2>met them and had a relationship with them, what would.

633
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:44.760
<v Speaker 3>Happen anytime he dated somebody or even message with them online,

634
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:50.480
<v Speaker 3>they would receive streats from his stalker. And it understandably

635
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:55.119
<v Speaker 3>they were upset and they were interested in dating him.

636
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:58.280
<v Speaker 3>When he came with a stalker, it was pretty scary

637
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:01.159
<v Speaker 3>to them. So he found that there was only one

638
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:05.599
<v Speaker 3>person who was loyal, only one person who would stand

639
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:09.159
<v Speaker 3>by his side, and that was Liz, And Liz was

640
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:12.159
<v Speaker 3>not deterred by the stretch from the stalker, and so

641
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:14.920
<v Speaker 3>he was grateful to her for that because she was

642
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.840
<v Speaker 3>sticking around and nobody else would. But he still didn't

643
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:20.519
<v Speaker 3>want he didn't love her, He didn't want to be

644
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:24.639
<v Speaker 3>in a long time relationship with her. She was okay company,

645
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:27.639
<v Speaker 3>you know, and they had something in common now they

646
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.599
<v Speaker 3>were both being stopped. So that was really the basis

647
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:34.760
<v Speaker 3>for their whole relationship, said ninety nine percent of the time,

648
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:39.199
<v Speaker 3>they were talking about the stalker, talking about how they

649
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:43.119
<v Speaker 3>could the stalker, talking about what the stalker was going

650
00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:45.800
<v Speaker 3>to do next, And that was their whole life was

651
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.559
<v Speaker 3>dealing with this and thinking about it and talking about it.

652
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:53.800
<v Speaker 2>Meanwhile, in this story, there's a person named Garrett Sloan

653
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:56.840
<v Speaker 2>and he works at the IT department at this part

654
00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:01.360
<v Speaker 2>of what Tommy County. But he's also in a relationship

655
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:05.280
<v Speaker 2>with someone for well maybe a fair amount of time,

656
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:08.639
<v Speaker 2>and tell us about this relationship that he believes he's

657
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:13.920
<v Speaker 2>in and what he thinks and his meeting with Liz, well.

658
00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:18.039
<v Speaker 3>He actually he met he met a woman online also

659
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.960
<v Speaker 3>and it happened to be Liz Golier, who was so

660
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:27.039
<v Speaker 3>obsessed with Dave and insisting that Dave crucively yet the

661
00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:32.079
<v Speaker 3>whole time. She'd been dating Garrett for the last couple

662
00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:34.280
<v Speaker 3>of years, and she kept him the sacret from Dave

663
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:36.719
<v Speaker 3>and me. He was oblivious. Garrett was just a very

664
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:40.159
<v Speaker 3>very nice guy, had no idea that his girlfriend was

665
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.039
<v Speaker 3>cheating on him, no idea. He didn't know who Dave

666
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:46.760
<v Speaker 3>Cooper was. He thought everything was fine. He also was

667
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:50.280
<v Speaker 3>not in love with Live, but he liked her a

668
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:53.480
<v Speaker 3>lot and he hoped that their relationship could develop. That

669
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:54.639
<v Speaker 3>he was not in love.

670
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:58.119
<v Speaker 2>What did Garrett represent to her and present?

671
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.360
<v Speaker 3>She ard him quite a bit. She helped her out

672
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:06.159
<v Speaker 3>with things. I actually think that if he had given

673
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:09.800
<v Speaker 3>her any reason to be jealous, she would have found

674
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:13.519
<v Speaker 3>him more attractive and would have become obsessed with him too.

675
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:18.079
<v Speaker 3>And I think that for her, the challenge of trying

676
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:21.199
<v Speaker 3>to win a guy is what excited her the most.

677
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:24.840
<v Speaker 3>And because Garrett was a very nice guy and he

678
00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:27.920
<v Speaker 3>never gave her any reason to worry or be jealous,

679
00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:31.880
<v Speaker 3>she lost interests. She hung around because he helped her

680
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:35.239
<v Speaker 3>out financially, and even the nice guy is easy to

681
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:39.960
<v Speaker 3>be around. They had a physical relationship, but her true

682
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:42.639
<v Speaker 3>obsession was with day you.

683
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:47.760
<v Speaker 2>Right about a July fourth, they were together, Garrett and Liz,

684
00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:51.199
<v Speaker 2>but she spent four hours on the phone texting with

685
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:54.519
<v Speaker 2>apparently a mechanic was just a friend. Garrett is not

686
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:59.000
<v Speaker 2>a stupid man, but he did have his suspicions about

687
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:01.920
<v Speaker 2>this four hour car But when he confronted her, what

688
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.320
<v Speaker 2>would she always say and how would she act?

689
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:09.239
<v Speaker 3>Anytime he was suspicious about something and asked about it,

690
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:12.239
<v Speaker 3>she would slip it on him to make it seem

691
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:16.079
<v Speaker 3>like that he was acting jealous and that he was

692
00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:20.840
<v Speaker 3>being unreasonable. And she's very very good at to him

693
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:25.000
<v Speaker 3>that was the case. And these people are, and these

694
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:29.280
<v Speaker 3>social paths, particularly the female sociopaths, know how to manipulate

695
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:34.960
<v Speaker 3>and making flip situations around to make themselves look good

696
00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:39.760
<v Speaker 3>and make everybody else at bad. And she made him

697
00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:43.960
<v Speaker 3>feel like he was being a jerk for his suspicion,

698
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:47.760
<v Speaker 3>so he would always back off. And he's a really nice,

699
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:51.360
<v Speaker 3>easy going guy, but he would he would just he'd think, oh,

700
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:56.239
<v Speaker 3>you know, she's obviously she's with me, she's sticking around,

701
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.719
<v Speaker 3>so you know it must be my imagination.

702
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:04.280
<v Speaker 2>That's some point, there becomes a change in the detectives

703
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:06.400
<v Speaker 2>that were invested. Well, we talked about the first people

704
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:10.239
<v Speaker 2>initially looked at this They had gathered information, They had

705
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:14.480
<v Speaker 2>taken Carrie's vehicle, they had taken photographs, they had examined it.

706
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:18.039
<v Speaker 2>They did, as you write, gather a lot of information,

707
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:21.400
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily seeing what was going on. They didn't know,

708
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:25.320
<v Speaker 2>but they did do a good job of collecting, preserving evidence,

709
00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:29.239
<v Speaker 2>taking photographs. At some point there's a new change and

710
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:33.559
<v Speaker 2>a detective Doughtie and a Detective Avis come on the

711
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:36.599
<v Speaker 2>scene and they have a different approach. They look at

712
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:40.159
<v Speaker 2>this case differently, and then they want to speak to Garrett.

713
00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:43.320
<v Speaker 2>But what is their different approach and then tell us

714
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:46.639
<v Speaker 2>about their conversation with Garrett and what they tell him.

715
00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:51.639
<v Speaker 3>Well, Givis and DOUTI a book very smart. They were

716
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:55.599
<v Speaker 3>not buying what everybody was saying about Cherry Bay and stalker,

717
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:59.719
<v Speaker 3>and they thought it was suspect, so they decided, let's

718
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:04.159
<v Speaker 3>excuse One of them approached it and investigated it as

719
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:07.760
<v Speaker 3>if Carrie were alive and was stalking, and the other

720
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:10.559
<v Speaker 3>one approached it as if she was dead, And they

721
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:14.159
<v Speaker 3>were quickly able to determine she Li wasn't alive. Nobody

722
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:17.280
<v Speaker 3>had seen her, heard her voice her.

723
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:20.920
<v Speaker 4>Lucky Land casino, asking people, what's the weirdest place you've

724
00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:24.119
<v Speaker 4>gotten lucky? Lucky in line at the deli, I guess

725
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:27.760
<v Speaker 4>hide my dentist's office more than months. Actually, do I

726
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:28.440
<v Speaker 4>have to say?

727
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:29.159
<v Speaker 3>Yes? You do?

728
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.840
<v Speaker 4>In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?

729
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:32.400
<v Speaker 3>Really?

730
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:32.800
<v Speaker 5>Yes?

731
00:42:33.159 --> 00:42:33.679
<v Speaker 3>Excuse me?

732
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:35.480
<v Speaker 1>What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?

733
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:38.239
<v Speaker 3>I never went in? Tell? Well, there you have it.

734
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:41.079
<v Speaker 4>You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot

735
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:44.000
<v Speaker 4>com play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky? No,

736
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.519
<v Speaker 4>We're not necessary void long eighteen plus terms conditions of

737
00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:47.440
<v Speaker 4>Poe Worts every details.

738
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:51.480
<v Speaker 3>Paychecks were picked up. No money had been withdrawn from

739
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:54.880
<v Speaker 3>her bank except for a couple of year. Couple of

740
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.039
<v Speaker 3>days after she was not seen. Somebody used her debit

741
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:03.199
<v Speaker 3>card a Walmart and a dollar store in Omaha that

742
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:06.519
<v Speaker 3>other than and then the bank. It was not Carrie's

743
00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.360
<v Speaker 3>unusual pattern, but it just didn't make sense that she

744
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:16.039
<v Speaker 3>would abandon her child, her dying father, her mother, She

745
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:20.480
<v Speaker 3>was close to her house, her job. It made no sense,

746
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:24.880
<v Speaker 3>and so they quietly determined that Cherry was along her

747
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:28.880
<v Speaker 3>life and that was actually couple guys they want where

748
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:32.519
<v Speaker 3>I believe who called Garrett into top to him about

749
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:40.760
<v Speaker 3>the situation with his girl friend being stunned by a

750
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.960
<v Speaker 3>woman Nade Carrie and Garrett didn't even learn about this

751
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:50.079
<v Speaker 3>alleged stocking until the morning that he was called in

752
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:53.800
<v Speaker 3>for the interviews, and the first time Liz ever mentioned

753
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:56.840
<v Speaker 3>it to him that morning. She didn't say who it was,

754
00:43:56.920 --> 00:44:01.159
<v Speaker 3>she just said somebody was bothering her. And he went

755
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:05.719
<v Speaker 3>in and he sat down and the detectives asked him

756
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:10.039
<v Speaker 3>what his relationship was Liz was, and he said, you know,

757
00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:13.639
<v Speaker 3>we're well, you know, we were a couple. We've been

758
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:17.599
<v Speaker 3>in a relationship for a couple of years, and that

759
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:22.719
<v Speaker 3>they were exclusive, and they said something that sort of shunned.

760
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:27.000
<v Speaker 3>They told him that Liz was having an affair with

761
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:30.280
<v Speaker 3>a man named Dave Trooper and that there was his

762
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:34.440
<v Speaker 3>name Curry, who was really jealous whose stocking both and

763
00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:37.119
<v Speaker 3>Dave because of them, And then they tould they got

764
00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:40.360
<v Speaker 3>this information a lot of the information of their from

765
00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:45.079
<v Speaker 3>Liz's fun because she and Dave had actually left the

766
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:49.199
<v Speaker 3>police download their phone in the hopes that it would

767
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.480
<v Speaker 3>help them catch the stucker. When the police did that,

768
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.559
<v Speaker 3>they can use Garrett in one of the pictures. And

769
00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:58.800
<v Speaker 3>then it's how they knew to teak to him. And

770
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:03.039
<v Speaker 3>they told him they said she had your picture labeled

771
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:06.599
<v Speaker 3>that ass and they showed him the picture that there's

772
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:10.079
<v Speaker 3>no label on it, and he wasn't street. That didn't

773
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:14.039
<v Speaker 3>sound like because he'd do that. And after the interview

774
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.400
<v Speaker 3>he asked her about everything they told him, and she said, oh,

775
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:19.880
<v Speaker 3>they had it all wrong. How dare he accused her

776
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.559
<v Speaker 3>of dating Dave days with all prim and they saw

777
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:28.280
<v Speaker 3>each other when the kids played together, and you know,

778
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:31.639
<v Speaker 3>she said, the very just we told you. You know,

779
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:33.800
<v Speaker 3>I just told you this morning I was being stopped

780
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:37.840
<v Speaker 3>and of course you would label a picture of him

781
00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:41.239
<v Speaker 3>sat and how dare he suggest such a thing. So

782
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:44.079
<v Speaker 3>once again she flipped it around on him. So he

783
00:45:44.199 --> 00:45:47.079
<v Speaker 3>felt foolish. She thought he felt like he'd done something wrong.

784
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:50.159
<v Speaker 3>Same time he said there was a seed planted, a

785
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:51.719
<v Speaker 3>seed of doubt and it grew.

786
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:59.400
<v Speaker 2>This noose is tightening around Liz gol year. And when

787
00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:03.880
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned about the forensic evidence, the digital forensic evidence

788
00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:09.559
<v Speaker 2>of the phones, there is a special deputy Kava that

789
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:12.519
<v Speaker 2>does an amazing job of organizing all of these things,

790
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:15.599
<v Speaker 2>all of the emails and texts. But also they find

791
00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:20.760
<v Speaker 2>things like metadata showing that the photo taken there was

792
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:24.119
<v Speaker 2>a photostake takens that she had sent in text that

793
00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:29.159
<v Speaker 2>looked like somebody was a fake kidnapping. They look at

794
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:32.239
<v Speaker 2>that data data and realize that that had come from

795
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:35.559
<v Speaker 2>a phone identical to the one Liz goll Your had.

796
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:39.760
<v Speaker 2>But all of this evidence, as you write, is all circumstantial.

797
00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:42.880
<v Speaker 2>As they tighten the noose, they need more and more

798
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:45.719
<v Speaker 2>and more to put this thing together. There's not enough evidence.

799
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:48.440
<v Speaker 2>There's not a body, there's not a murder weapon, and

800
00:46:48.639 --> 00:46:51.480
<v Speaker 2>is a very confusing case. So what they do is

801
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:55.480
<v Speaker 2>they they keep putting the pressure on, and Dodi says

802
00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:59.760
<v Speaker 2>that he loves the interrogation process itself, so he plays

803
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:03.960
<v Speaker 2>her acts like Colombo gets information out of her. By

804
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.119
<v Speaker 2>this point, strangely, she has pointed and said that Carrie

805
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:11.639
<v Speaker 2>is no longer sending her messages and she believes that

806
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Carrie is not the stalker, but Amy is now the stalker.

807
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:20.639
<v Speaker 2>With Detective Doughtie and with Detective Avis News and eventually

808
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:25.320
<v Speaker 2>they get search warrants for her for Garrett's and for

809
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:28.320
<v Speaker 2>her apartment. At that apartment that you say, it's a

810
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:31.719
<v Speaker 2>motherload of information. What do they find at that apartment

811
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:33.400
<v Speaker 2>that's incriminating a.

812
00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:39.119
<v Speaker 3>Number of things, including a video camera that have been

813
00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:44.400
<v Speaker 3>stolen from Cherry's house, and within that there was actually

814
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:47.960
<v Speaker 3>a video of Carrie, so they knew that it was

815
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:53.159
<v Speaker 3>definitely camera, so right there that Liz had actually gone

816
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:57.199
<v Speaker 3>into her home and taken something. They found other telephones

817
00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:02.119
<v Speaker 3>they could connect like cell phones, they connect to some

818
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:06.199
<v Speaker 3>of the texts and the emails that were sent, and

819
00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:08.440
<v Speaker 3>it was actually a huge message they had to piece

820
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:13.599
<v Speaker 3>together because there were so many texts and so many emails,

821
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:18.440
<v Speaker 3>and she had open email accounts, very many different names,

822
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:22.280
<v Speaker 3>so they had to untangle all of that. It was

823
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:23.840
<v Speaker 3>a grueling process.

824
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:28.519
<v Speaker 2>There also was a one print left in Harry's vehicle.

825
00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:31.119
<v Speaker 2>It was on a mint box and that was a match.

826
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:36.159
<v Speaker 2>So they put all this circumstantial evidence together. She's eventually arrested.

827
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Tell us about that arrested.

828
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:45.320
<v Speaker 3>Well, the ultimate arrest. She is arrested in question earlier on.

829
00:48:46.280 --> 00:48:49.639
<v Speaker 3>In the end, they finally had enough evidence. It was

830
00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:53.440
<v Speaker 3>a huge pile of evidence, and they went to her.

831
00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:57.840
<v Speaker 3>She had moved to Persia, Iowa, and was living in

832
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:00.880
<v Speaker 3>an apartment over on. It's kind of a creepy well

833
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:03.639
<v Speaker 3>building that used to be in a funeral home. And

834
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:07.119
<v Speaker 3>they went there and knocked up the door and she

835
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:09.800
<v Speaker 3>woke her up. She came out on her fault and

836
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:13.039
<v Speaker 3>they put the cuffs on her and she was done.

837
00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:18.000
<v Speaker 2>She gets a defense lawyer, you write, that's James Martin Davis.

838
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Nebraska has the death penalties a capital case. But however,

839
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:26.000
<v Speaker 2>with a female and with all the mitigating circumstances or

840
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:30.239
<v Speaker 2>pardon me, aggravating circumstances, how does this trial proceed and

841
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:32.440
<v Speaker 2>what happens at this trial?

842
00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:37.559
<v Speaker 3>Ultimately, well, it was kind of interesting because the prosecutors

843
00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:40.760
<v Speaker 3>were very, very good and some of the defense attorney

844
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:44.960
<v Speaker 3>so they all had really good arguments, But ultimately, the

845
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:49.000
<v Speaker 3>evidence that the prosecutors had it was it was so

846
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:53.239
<v Speaker 3>powerful that there was no getting around it. There was

847
00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:57.920
<v Speaker 3>quite a bit of evidence, but the most powerful piece

848
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:02.280
<v Speaker 3>was something that the detectives didn't have. At the time

849
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:06.119
<v Speaker 3>they arrested her, they were getting close to trial time

850
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:12.480
<v Speaker 3>and her attorney had wisely set the trial for there

851
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:15.000
<v Speaker 3>was like three months after the time she was arrested,

852
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:18.320
<v Speaker 3>three or four months, and the prosecutors normally have over

853
00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:22.159
<v Speaker 3>a year a month of two years that her attorney

854
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:26.320
<v Speaker 3>did not want to give detectives time to find a body,

855
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:31.760
<v Speaker 3>and nobody cases are more difficult to prosecute, so they

856
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:35.840
<v Speaker 3>were rushing trying to get everything ready, and one of

857
00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:39.360
<v Speaker 3>the detectives stopped by and Dave Cooper's work and said,

858
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:42.760
<v Speaker 3>is there is there anything else any other electronic device

859
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:46.840
<v Speaker 3>that you might have forgotten about? And you know, I

860
00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:50.239
<v Speaker 3>think there's a tablet in storage, So he went and

861
00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:53.480
<v Speaker 3>looked in surener there was one there, and they found

862
00:50:53.559 --> 00:50:57.480
<v Speaker 3>that the disk in that tablet had been recycled and

863
00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:00.960
<v Speaker 3>it had one time been in Lizzie phone, and she

864
00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:04.880
<v Speaker 3>had deleted photos that she thought were gone forever, and

865
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:08.840
<v Speaker 3>some of them were extremely incriminating. There were actually photographs

866
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:12.199
<v Speaker 3>of a tattoo and it looked like it was on

867
00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:14.079
<v Speaker 3>a foot, but it was kind of hard to tell.

868
00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:18.679
<v Speaker 3>They had a forensic pathologist study it and it turned

869
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:22.880
<v Speaker 3>out it was a photograph of Cherry's tattoo on a

870
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:27.199
<v Speaker 3>foot in a state of dictay. So they had photographed

871
00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:31.840
<v Speaker 3>her after death as souvenirs probably and then decided to

872
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:34.440
<v Speaker 3>get rid of it. She probably thought it was incriminating

873
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:37.440
<v Speaker 3>to keep it around, and when she deleted it, she

874
00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:39.800
<v Speaker 3>thought it was gone forever, but it wasn't. It's about

875
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:41.360
<v Speaker 3>the most powerful.

876
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:46.119
<v Speaker 2>Evidence, the circumstantial evidence, not that anyone will absolutely conclusively know.

877
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:51.360
<v Speaker 2>But they put together Lizz's comments as a stalker, and

878
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:53.360
<v Speaker 2>they said that some of it was pure fantasy. You

879
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:55.360
<v Speaker 2>read some of pure fantasy, but a lot of it

880
00:51:55.480 --> 00:52:00.639
<v Speaker 2>was incriminating accurate evidence from that circumstantial as much as

881
00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:04.000
<v Speaker 2>best guests. And putting it all together, what did Avis

882
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:08.679
<v Speaker 2>and Dodie and then the prosecutor basically say had happened

883
00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:11.039
<v Speaker 2>to carry farvar memory?

884
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:16.760
<v Speaker 3>Well, the stoker had sent letters, sent emails now claiming

885
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:19.199
<v Speaker 3>that she was Amy or who was a very very

886
00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:22.119
<v Speaker 3>sweet woman who had never heard anybody, and again that

887
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:26.920
<v Speaker 3>stay effects. And while in Amy's name, the stalkers said

888
00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:30.880
<v Speaker 3>that they had attacked Cherrie in her car and stabbed her.

889
00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:34.880
<v Speaker 3>So the detectives had already searched the car in the

890
00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:37.760
<v Speaker 3>car been fold since then, so they trapped down the

891
00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:41.360
<v Speaker 3>new owners and got permissioned to study it. And they

892
00:52:41.719 --> 00:52:45.559
<v Speaker 3>pulled out the front seat and peeled back the cover

893
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:49.519
<v Speaker 3>and found that the passenger seat had at one time

894
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:52.079
<v Speaker 3>been drenched with blood. They could still see the blood

895
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:54.960
<v Speaker 3>in the seat, so that fit in the email, the

896
00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:00.000
<v Speaker 3>threatening email that had come in. It was supposedly confess

897
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:03.360
<v Speaker 3>from Amy that somebody was trying to frame Amy and

898
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:05.840
<v Speaker 3>make it look like that she had stabbed Carrie in

899
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:08.119
<v Speaker 3>the car. So there were little things like that that

900
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:12.000
<v Speaker 3>said truth. Somebody had led in that seat, and the

901
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:16.760
<v Speaker 3>detectives decided that this is where unfortunately Paul Kerry had

902
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:19.440
<v Speaker 3>probably died and this is where she was attacked. But

903
00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:22.360
<v Speaker 3>they knew Amy hadn't done it. But now they trace

904
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:26.639
<v Speaker 3>all the emails directly to this, they knew whe they

905
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:27.320
<v Speaker 3>were coming from.

906
00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:31.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, one last thing as well, an interesting thing was

907
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:34.639
<v Speaker 2>again not proof, but there was some indication there was

908
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:39.039
<v Speaker 2>photo sent in those stocking texts about a burnt tarp.

909
00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:42.239
<v Speaker 2>So what did they surmise in terms of the disposal,

910
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:46.079
<v Speaker 2>again and everybody was never found, what did they surmise happened?

911
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:51.599
<v Speaker 3>Well, nobody really knows for sure, and it's you know,

912
00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:56.039
<v Speaker 3>it's not something that anyone likes to contemplate that they

913
00:53:56.119 --> 00:53:59.000
<v Speaker 3>think that it was very likely that she burned Carrie

914
00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:02.679
<v Speaker 3>after death, and we don't know, you know, if she

915
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:05.159
<v Speaker 3>burned part of her or all of her, but her

916
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:06.400
<v Speaker 3>body's never been found.

917
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:11.239
<v Speaker 2>You talk about the trial and Carrie's family being present,

918
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:16.519
<v Speaker 2>and Nancy also being present as well, and also the

919
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:21.280
<v Speaker 2>odd behavior of Liz's gallier. So tell us what how

920
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:24.440
<v Speaker 2>she responded to this entire trial and then tell us

921
00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:25.800
<v Speaker 2>what the outcome was.

922
00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:32.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, some of the testimony was absolutely heartbreaking and there

923
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:37.039
<v Speaker 3>were people crying, I mean, the wonderful woman Carrie lost

924
00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:41.159
<v Speaker 3>your life, but Liz was unmoved by that. She barely

925
00:54:41.199 --> 00:54:43.719
<v Speaker 3>had a flicker of expression on her face. The only

926
00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:46.639
<v Speaker 3>time she lit up is when Dave took the stand,

927
00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:51.480
<v Speaker 3>and then she gazed at him adoringly. But other than that,

928
00:54:51.559 --> 00:54:55.039
<v Speaker 3>she's unfaced. So that was kind of you know, you

929
00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:59.000
<v Speaker 3>watch help some of the aposiop once they're arrested, and

930
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:03.639
<v Speaker 3>her reaction is often really flat. They can be really

931
00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:07.000
<v Speaker 3>good at imitating emotion. The other times they're just flat.

932
00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:11.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this was a victory for the prosecution and for

933
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the detectives and for the families. She didn't get the

934
00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:18.480
<v Speaker 2>death penalty, but what was her sentence. She was also

935
00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:20.719
<v Speaker 2>convicted for the arson as well.

936
00:55:21.400 --> 00:55:26.360
<v Speaker 3>Yes, she is imprisoned from and she's still trying to

937
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:29.679
<v Speaker 3>prove her innocence, and she did write me a letter

938
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:33.119
<v Speaker 3>about that, and she's already she's not getting out, and

939
00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:38.519
<v Speaker 3>I'm appeal but she believes she's getting she believes she

940
00:55:38.599 --> 00:55:39.199
<v Speaker 3>can do it.

941
00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was sad too that during this that Carrie's

942
00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:48.039
<v Speaker 2>father had died of cancer. There's very sad story for

943
00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:51.679
<v Speaker 2>many people in this. Nancy got some answers, but again,

944
00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:55.719
<v Speaker 2>not not a happy ending by any means. Anthony Kava

945
00:55:56.400 --> 00:56:00.960
<v Speaker 2>did an admirable job here, And so what about Maxwell,

946
00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:04.400
<v Speaker 2>What about Terry's sons.

947
00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:07.639
<v Speaker 3>He's doing really well. He's doing really well. He's going

948
00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:12.920
<v Speaker 3>to college and he's going into moving on computers, also

949
00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:16.360
<v Speaker 3>getting coding like his mother dad, and he's getting married

950
00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:20.519
<v Speaker 3>and he's a strong young man. And so they're doing

951
00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:23.199
<v Speaker 3>the you know, it's just a short break for the family.

952
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:26.559
<v Speaker 3>Something you'll never get over that they're doing as well

953
00:56:26.599 --> 00:56:30.320
<v Speaker 3>as can be expected. And they're the nicest people, just

954
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:34.360
<v Speaker 3>really really kind, down the earth people, the whole family,

955
00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:39.960
<v Speaker 3>and it's just very sad that this tragedy had the history. Yeah,

956
00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:42.480
<v Speaker 3>and truly have so much to give. She was young,

957
00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:44.800
<v Speaker 3>she was very young, and she was a good, good

958
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:48.079
<v Speaker 3>person and her friends and mess her turkey in her

959
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:50.199
<v Speaker 3>family absolutely.

960
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Now with as a result of this book too. I

961
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:56.320
<v Speaker 2>mentioned Special Deputy Anthony cava at the end of this book.

962
00:56:56.360 --> 00:56:59.800
<v Speaker 2>He has a website for tips on staying safe in

963
00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:04.280
<v Speaker 2>the CyberWorld, and also you provide that link, but also

964
00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:07.800
<v Speaker 2>your link which is just a little bit easier to remember.

965
00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:13.199
<v Speaker 2>I guess www dot author Leslierule dot com. And again

966
00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:17.880
<v Speaker 2>I think it's in keeping with saving lives, getting people

967
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:22.519
<v Speaker 2>to understand this and to be cautioned by this. So

968
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:26.880
<v Speaker 2>you provide this link for people to again tips on

969
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:28.840
<v Speaker 2>staying safe in the CyberWorld.

970
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.559
<v Speaker 3>Would you find reading on his website is because I

971
00:57:33.559 --> 00:57:35.760
<v Speaker 3>don't have it in front of me, and that would

972
00:57:35.800 --> 00:57:38.840
<v Speaker 3>be good if people would like to go to the

973
00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:41.119
<v Speaker 3>website and see his tips. Do you have that in

974
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:41.519
<v Speaker 3>front of you.

975
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:45.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't have it in front of me, but I will,

976
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:48.360
<v Speaker 2>I said, But like I say, yours is much easier,

977
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:52.480
<v Speaker 2>and you can go to either www dot author Leslierule

978
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:57.440
<v Speaker 2>dot com and then you can contribute to Anthony Caviata's

979
00:57:57.480 --> 00:57:59.280
<v Speaker 2>website or take a look at it. I want to

980
00:57:59.320 --> 00:58:02.719
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much Leslie for coming on and talking

981
00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:06.239
<v Speaker 2>about this true crime debut and It is an incredible

982
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:09.880
<v Speaker 2>true crime debut, A Tangled Web, a cyber snalker, a

983
00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:13.880
<v Speaker 2>deadly obsession, and a twisting path to justice. I want

984
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:15.880
<v Speaker 2>to thank you so much for this interview.

985
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:18.639
<v Speaker 3>Well, thanks for having me. It was really nice suppose

986
00:58:18.679 --> 00:58:18.880
<v Speaker 3>with you.

987
00:58:19.519 --> 00:58:22.320
<v Speaker 2>And again we just mentioned your website for people who

988
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:24.400
<v Speaker 2>want to find out more information about this. Of course,

989
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:29.199
<v Speaker 2>this is an audiobook, paperback and ebook everywhere available. Again,

990
00:58:29.239 --> 00:58:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to thank you very much for coming on

991
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:35.559
<v Speaker 2>and talking about your incredible A Tangled Web. It's been fantastic.

992
00:58:35.599 --> 00:58:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you, good night,