Speaker 1: Judy was boring.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 1: Then Judy discovered chumbucasino dot com.
Speaker 3: It's my little escape.
Speaker 1: Now Judy's the life of the party.
Speaker 3: Oh baby, mama is bringing home the bacon.
Speaker 1: WHOA, take it easy, Judy, jump the chumba life that's
Speaker 1: for everybody. So go to chumpacasino dot com and play
Speaker 1: over one hundred casino style games. Join today and play
Speaker 1: for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices.
Speaker 1: Jump chumpacasino dot com. No prig's necessary weight, We're go
Speaker 1: hit at my mom etem plus terms and condition to
Speaker 1: play se website for details.
Speaker 4: It is Ryan here, And I have a question for you.
Speaker 4: What do you do when you win?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 4: Are you at fist pumper, a wooo, a handclapp or
Speaker 4: a high fiver? I kind of like the high five.
Speaker 4: But if you want to hone in on those winning moves,
Speaker 4: check out Chumbuck Casino. At chumbacasino dot com, choose from
Speaker 4: hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to
Speaker 4: redeem serious cash prizes. There are new game releases weekly,
Speaker 4: plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait start having the
Speaker 4: most fun ever at chumbuck Casino dot com.
Speaker 3: No'll prig Necessary, dl Revoid where Everybody lost in terms
Speaker 3: of loop Tadian.
Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good Evening, November twenty twelve.
Speaker 5: Carrie Lee Farber vanished from Omaha, Nebraska, Carey thirty seven.
Speaker 5: Was a devoted mother, reliable employee and loyal friend, and
Speaker 5: not the type to shirk responsibilities, abandoned her son and
Speaker 5: run off while her dying father took his last breaths.
Speaker 2: It appeared that Carrie had dumped her new boyfriend, quit
Speaker 2: her job, and relinquished custody of her son to her
Speaker 2: mother and all by text. While Carrie's boyfriend, Dave Crupa,
Speaker 2: and her supervisor were bewildered by her abrupt disappearance, they
Speaker 2: accepted the text at face value. Her mother, Nancy Rainey,
Speaker 2: was alarmed and reported Carrie missing. Police were skepticicle of
Speaker 2: her claims that a cyber impostor had commandeered her daughter's
Speaker 2: phone and online identity. While Nancy was afraid for Carrie,
Speaker 2: Dave Crupa was growing afraid of her, for he believed
Speaker 2: Carrie was stalking him. Never seen or heard, the stalker
Speaker 2: was aware of his every move and seemed obsessed with
Speaker 2: his casual girlfriend, Shanna Liz Goler, often calling her a
Speaker 2: fat horror in the twelve thousand emails in texts he
Speaker 2: received in a disturbing three year deluge, How did the
Speaker 2: stalker know Dave's phone numbers immediately after he changed them,
Speaker 2: the names of his lady friends, even what he wore
Speaker 2: as he watched TV. He and Liz reported death threats, vandalism,
Speaker 2: and burglaries, but the stalker remained at large. The threats
Speaker 2: for vicious, vile, and often obscene, and sent mostly via text,
Speaker 2: and always in Carrie's name. There was some truth in
Speaker 2: the messages, but all one big lie. The culprit was
Speaker 2: not Carrie. With mesmerizing detail and narrative skill, Leslie Rule
Speaker 2: tracks every step of the heart pounding path to justice,
Speaker 2: from a sociopaths twisted past to the deadly deception and
Speaker 2: the high tech forensics that condemned this Killer to prison.
Speaker 2: The book that were featuring this evening is a tangled Web,
Speaker 2: a cyberstalker, a deadly obsession, and the twisting path to
Speaker 2: justice with my special guest, journalist and author Leslie Rule.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for
Speaker 2: this interview.
Speaker 3: Leslie Rule, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Dan, thank you so much. And congratulations. I know you
Speaker 2: were a nonfiction and fictional writer before this, and this
Speaker 2: is congratulations your true crime debut.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about, as you do in the introduction, how
Speaker 2: you came to be involved in true crime. How you,
Speaker 2: being Anne Rule's daughter, first got into the we'll say
Speaker 2: the business. You talk about being a photographer, being in school.
Speaker 2: Tell us about your first job as photographer and research assistant,
Speaker 2: as you do in the book. Tell us a little
Speaker 2: bit about this.
Speaker 3: Well. I was seventeen when I started going with my
Speaker 3: mom to trials to photograph the killers for her articles.
Speaker 3: Later they were it was for her books, but in
Speaker 3: the beginning she was writing articles for magazines. So it
Speaker 3: was a little bit nerve racking my camera and point
Speaker 3: it in their face. I got a lot of icy glares,
Speaker 3: but it was also very interesting.
Speaker 2: This occupation that you have. Your mother also came to
Speaker 2: this honestly as well with her grandparents. As you write,
Speaker 2: tell us about your grandparents and their little mom and
Speaker 2: pop jail and what that led to in terms of
Speaker 2: the interest for your mother in terms of crime and
Speaker 2: true crime.
Speaker 3: Well, it was a My mother's grandparents were a powerful
Speaker 3: influence on her. They lived in Stanton, Michigan, and they
Speaker 3: ran the mom Pa Jail there. Her grandfather was the sheriff,
Speaker 3: a sheriff Chris Hansen, and from the time she was
Speaker 3: a little girl, she spent her summers there and she
Speaker 3: would sometimes watch her grandfather work. There were all other
Speaker 3: people in the family uncle, who were also under sheriff,
Speaker 3: and she would east drop and soak it all in,
Speaker 3: and she found it fascinating. She'd thinking, how do they
Speaker 3: take how do they take a button and trace it
Speaker 3: back to a killer? And this sparked her interest from
Speaker 3: the time she was really really young and her grandmother
Speaker 3: took for the prince prisoners and one of them taught
Speaker 3: her how to knit, and my mom thought she seemed
Speaker 3: like such a nice lady. But she was in jail
Speaker 3: waiting trial for murder, and my mom didn't quite get it.
Speaker 3: Viola was the woman's name, and she explained it to
Speaker 3: my mother. She said, well, it was just to file
Speaker 3: the homicide. She had caught her husband in the arms
Speaker 3: of her best friend in the truck. She had bought
Speaker 3: her husband with tips seemed waitressing, so she shot him
Speaker 3: and felt it was justified. And my mom didn't really
Speaker 3: get it. It didn't make sense to her. So that
Speaker 3: was her first encounter with a deadly sociopath and it
Speaker 3: really sparked a lifelong interest for her.
Speaker 2: You're right that her dream was of being a police
Speaker 2: officer was fulfilled and she did at twenty eight years
Speaker 2: old Seattle Police Department. But you tell us that, go ahead.
Speaker 3: Oh, she it was her dream job and she wanted
Speaker 3: to be a police officer more than email. Officers had
Speaker 3: to wear skirts and heal and they weren't allowed to
Speaker 3: carry guns. Can you imagine after a criminal in a
Speaker 3: skirt and heel. So she was on the job of
Speaker 3: about eight months and then the yearly physical came around
Speaker 3: and without her glasses, she was legally blind, and she
Speaker 3: took the eye test and she couldn't see the biggie
Speaker 3: even when she was allowed to creep up really close
Speaker 3: to the chart because the examiner he felt so sorry
Speaker 3: for her, she still couldn't see it, so she lost
Speaker 3: her job. The thinking was that if her glass has
Speaker 3: gotten hooked up in the struggle, she wouldn't be able
Speaker 3: to defend herself. I thought it was all right for
Speaker 3: her to wear a skirt keeled and not have it done,
Speaker 3: but I guess they didn't like the idea of her
Speaker 3: losing her glasses on top of all of that. So
Speaker 3: that was absolutely devastating for her. She wanted it more
Speaker 3: than anything, and she said she couldn't drive by the
Speaker 3: little police department for years. She said, detailurs just because
Speaker 3: it broke her heart. And then a few years later
Speaker 3: she started writing articles to support the family and was
Speaker 3: welcome back to the police department and hung out in
Speaker 3: the homeside department and her old friends opened their files
Speaker 3: to her, and that's how she started her career as
Speaker 3: a crime writer.
Speaker 2: Now at the same time she's a successful writer, you're
Speaker 2: taking photos assisting her in court, and you're her research
Speaker 2: assistant as well. Talk about and volunteering for a suicide
Speaker 2: crisis center. Why is that? What was the personal experience
Speaker 2: that led her to that? And who did she meet
Speaker 2: working at this crisis center.
Speaker 3: Well, one of the most devastating things that ever happened
Speaker 3: to my mom in her entire life was the loss
Speaker 3: of her younger brother, her only sibling, to suicide, and
Speaker 3: she never got over it. She had tried to talk
Speaker 3: him out of this depression, wasn't able to then. They
Speaker 3: didn't have medication like they do today. He was a
Speaker 3: medical student and he was actually very smart, and that
Speaker 3: he didn't think he was doing well enough and he
Speaker 3: took his own life. So this was before I was born,
Speaker 3: and it was a few years after she had kids
Speaker 3: that a nonprofit group started the Seattle Christ's Clinic and
Speaker 3: it was a hotline for troubled people to call. And
Speaker 3: she thought, well, I couldn't help my brother, maybe I
Speaker 3: can help someone else. So she went through the program
Speaker 3: and was trained and they would put people together in
Speaker 3: teens of two, and so she was teamed up with
Speaker 3: who she thought was a very nice young man. His
Speaker 3: name was Ted Bundy, and together she and Tad worked
Speaker 3: the hotlines and saved many lives. Back then, if somebody
Speaker 3: called in and they were in the process of taking
Speaker 3: their own life, maybe purgency services couldn't get to them
Speaker 3: as quickly as they could today because they had to
Speaker 3: trace the call. I mean it could take over an hour,
Speaker 3: and this was in the nineteen seventies. So they would wait,
Speaker 3: they'd be talking to the person. Sometimes the person would
Speaker 3: pass out prey soon somebody would pick up the phone
Speaker 3: and say it's okay, or here, we got them and
Speaker 3: we save them. And so that was that was very
Speaker 3: satisfying for her because she wasn't able to help her brother,
Speaker 3: but she kept Bundy receiving the lives of many other people.
Speaker 3: And she actually found out later that on the ship
Speaker 3: that he worked by himself, that he would turn off
Speaker 3: the phone a nap, so he really wasn't okay. I
Speaker 3: think the compassion he showed was all en app right.
Speaker 2: Now. Interestingly, your mother was offered a book deal, and
Speaker 2: she got to that point where they said, listen, you
Speaker 2: can get a book deal. There's some murders in this area.
Speaker 2: If this person is apprehended, then you get this book deal.
Speaker 2: And sure enough, this person that she thought her friend
Speaker 2: was the subject of this man hunt. And later she
Speaker 2: wrote through groundbreaking true crime classic Stranger Beside Me, And
Speaker 2: as you write, she didn't let this go to her head.
Speaker 2: She just had a modest lifestyle, and you inherited a
Speaker 2: fascination for dark mysteries. But you wanted to carve out
Speaker 2: your own niche. You wanted to carve out your own niche,
Speaker 2: so you didn't do the true crime route. Tell us
Speaker 2: what you start writing.
Speaker 3: About, well, I write about the pair of normal. I
Speaker 3: have four nonfiction books, a ghosts on top of introducing
Speaker 3: me to the serial killer when I was fourteen, my
Speaker 3: mother also raised me in a haunted house, so it
Speaker 3: was kind of a spooky childhood. But I was fascinated
Speaker 3: by other worldly things. I actually, when I was a child,
Speaker 3: I was afraid, but as an adult I just found
Speaker 3: it really interesting and actually very reassuring to find signs
Speaker 3: of life after death.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now, you say that killers have not changed, but
Speaker 2: their methods have, and they now have an arsenal level
Speaker 2: electronic devices that they can use to dupe people. But
Speaker 2: you say they can outsmart them by learning their tricks.
Speaker 2: You also write that one of the most important things
Speaker 2: for your mother in her writing was she would save
Speaker 2: people's lives potentially by showing them how disordinary people could be,
Speaker 2: very much like Ted Bundy, a real actual threat without
Speaker 2: them knowing. So she was most pleased. You say that
Speaker 2: she could actually save lives as a process of her writing.
Speaker 3: Didn't She yes, And she got quite a few letters
Speaker 3: from people writing to say, your books saved my life.
Speaker 3: They's got trouble coming and they recognize it because they
Speaker 3: read about things like that in her books. And that
Speaker 3: made her so happy. It was doing something very positive
Speaker 3: because early on, when she first started writing about crime,
Speaker 3: there was a lot of criticism. This was before it
Speaker 3: was a popular genre. There really weren't in female was
Speaker 3: writing about crime, and a lot of people criticized her
Speaker 3: for writing about such a dark topic. So when she
Speaker 3: got to a place where she realized that this was
Speaker 3: really helping people and saving lives, she felt a whole
Speaker 3: lot better about it because people shamed her about it.
Speaker 3: How can you write about such horrible things?
Speaker 2: Incredible? Times have changed. Now let's talk about your true
Speaker 2: crime debut, A Tangled Web. You picked a incredible story,
Speaker 2: fascinating story, but you say the predator in this case
Speaker 2: used a different kind of web. Why call this book
Speaker 2: a tangled web? What is it a metaphor for?
Speaker 3: It's a metaphor for the worldwide web and also for
Speaker 3: the sociopath who was so dangerous. Actually tangled kind of
Speaker 3: a web around people with her manipulation, so it worked
Speaker 3: both ways. Don't seemed like the perfect title for what
Speaker 3: she did.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that and introduce the characters. You talk
Speaker 2: about Dave Krupa, you say liked women, didn't like commitment,
Speaker 2: and just ended a twelve year relationship with a woman
Speaker 2: named Amy Flora and they had two kids together, an
Speaker 2: amicable split. And this is summer of twenty twelve. Tell
Speaker 2: us what this Dave thirty four year old Dave Croupa,
Speaker 2: healthy and attractive. He manages a high attire store. It's
Speaker 2: a mechanic. Tell us a little bit about Dave Croupa
Speaker 2: and his life.
Speaker 3: Well, he's actually a very nice guy. He was heeared,
Speaker 3: and he and his longtime partner had a couple of
Speaker 3: kids together, and it just it's you know about half marriages.
Speaker 3: Half of the marriages out there don't work. And then
Speaker 3: they got to the point they actually didn't get married,
Speaker 3: but they got to the point where their relationship lost
Speaker 3: all esteem and they parted and it was very painful
Speaker 3: for him and for Amy, but they remained friends. And
Speaker 3: he was kind of lonely and he thought, you know,
Speaker 3: I've been in a committed relationship for years now. I
Speaker 3: just want to have a little fun. I just want
Speaker 3: to meet some interesting women and socialize a little bit,
Speaker 3: and I just I'm not ready to be tied down.
Speaker 3: So he went to a website called Plenty of Fish
Speaker 3: and he signed up, and he started looking at the
Speaker 3: profile of females in the area, and he done a
Speaker 3: woman right away that she's found attractive and they was
Speaker 3: blizh and they met for a coffee date. He didn't
Speaker 3: know what he'd gotten into.
Speaker 2: His philosophy was that he just got to have a
Speaker 2: long term relationship. So he had said to her that listen,
Speaker 2: I don't want a commitment. I just want to have
Speaker 2: some fun. What was her response to that request.
Speaker 3: She seemed like she felt the same way. She smiled
Speaker 3: and nodded and agreed, and he thought that that's what
Speaker 3: the arrangement was. Unfortunately, she got very possessed up very quickly,
Speaker 3: and she wanted all his time, and he was very
Speaker 3: uncomfortable with that. And he told her I'm going to
Speaker 3: continue to date, and he did, but she that did
Speaker 3: discourage her. She still suckle out. She still kept coming around.
Speaker 2: He actually went as far as to soon while in
Speaker 2: this relationship, not like really conversing whether, but he really
Speaker 2: did enjoy the sex. He thought she was kinky and
Speaker 2: they had but he did say to her, listen, I
Speaker 2: at some point I don't love you, and I'm not
Speaker 2: going to love you. He said, is as firm as
Speaker 2: he could that he did not want have an exclusive relationship,
Speaker 2: and then he would continue dating. But despite that, what
Speaker 2: did she do and what did she continue to do?
Speaker 3: In the beginning, she was kind of about her desire
Speaker 3: to be with him exclusively, but as time went on,
Speaker 3: she started to nag him about it, and she actually
Speaker 3: became obsessed with the idea that he was hooking up
Speaker 3: with his ex when he went to pick up his kids.
Speaker 3: He was not doing that. Their relationship was over and
Speaker 3: they're simply they've become friends. They were kids together, but
Speaker 3: she would not believe that, and she was obsessed with that.
Speaker 3: And if he had a date, she would call say, hey,
Speaker 3: you want to get together tonight, and he was very
Speaker 3: upfront and saying, no, I can't. I've got a date tonight,
Speaker 3: And he'd come home from work and she'd be sitting
Speaker 3: there waiting for him, and then she would seduce him,
Speaker 3: thinking that maybe she's going to wear him out and
Speaker 3: he wouldn't be interested in anyone else. But he said
Speaker 3: it didn't slow him down. He was guy in his
Speaker 3: thirties and so pretty healthy. He didn't even realize in
Speaker 3: the beginning what she was doing. It took a few
Speaker 3: times before he realized, well, wait a minute, she's trying
Speaker 3: to wear me out.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: So she did everything she could courage him from seeing
Speaker 3: other women, but it didn't work in regard to his idea,
Speaker 3: his statement about that he didn't want to be committed.
Speaker 2: Despite that, she proposed a four week commitment trial to
Speaker 2: see where the relationship would go. Again. Unfortunately, he agreed,
Speaker 2: well this trial, this.
Speaker 3: For weekheartedly agreed just to shut her up. They've been
Speaker 3: dating for about five six months, and she started writing
Speaker 3: him texts suggesting that they commit to for four weeks,
Speaker 3: and she thought that maybe at the end of four
Speaker 3: weeks he'd be ready for a real commitment. And the
Speaker 3: first time she suggested it to him, he said no,
Speaker 3: forget it, and she kept bringing it up, and finally,
Speaker 3: just to shut her up, you yeah, yeah, whatever. But
Speaker 3: he was so busy then he really wasn't seeing anybody else.
Speaker 3: At that point, he had his kids, he had his job,
Speaker 3: he had time with her, but he didn't want to
Speaker 3: be committed to her. And at the end of those
Speaker 3: four weeks, he actually did go on a date with
Speaker 3: a woman he met on who he was very attracted to,
Speaker 3: and that was Carrie Farber.
Speaker 2: They met at work, and you say that they didn't
Speaker 2: meet online, but he was reluctant to approach her at work.
Speaker 2: But two weeks later he saw her profile and plenty
Speaker 2: of fish. They contacted each other and she came back
Speaker 2: into the shop and there's some premise and the exchange
Speaker 2: numbers and they start going out. Yes, Now, what did
Speaker 2: Liz do when she found out about Carrie Farvar?
Speaker 3: She was pretty upset. On the very first day, Dave
Speaker 3: and Carry met for dinner and they sat down and
Speaker 3: they were enjoying each other's company and laughing and having drinks,
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, his phone started to blow
Speaker 3: up and it just went on and on. It got
Speaker 3: like twenty messages in like five minutes, and finally he thought, well,
Speaker 3: something serious has got to be going on. So he
Speaker 3: excused himself and went and called Liz back and asked
Speaker 3: her what was up. And she said, I need to
Speaker 3: get some things I left take your apartments. And she
Speaker 3: insisted that she goes right then and pick up Oh
Speaker 3: it was like his shirt and the tooth brush and
Speaker 3: some pots and pans and some things that she really
Speaker 3: normally didn't care about. And he said, no, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to do that. I'm on a date. You leave
Speaker 3: me alone. So he and Cherry finished their dinner and
Speaker 3: they went to his apartment. They're going to just kind
Speaker 3: of hang out and watch TV or play cards, but no,
Speaker 3: sooner had the enter the apartment when the buzzer on
Speaker 3: the security door starts going off. And he could ignore
Speaker 3: the cell phone but not that so he couldn't talk
Speaker 3: to Live through the intercom because it was broken. So
Speaker 3: he went out to the door and she was standing
Speaker 3: there with tears streaming down her face, insisting that she
Speaker 3: had to come in right then and I'm getting get
Speaker 3: her stuff, and he just gave up. You aren't any mean,
Speaker 3: told Jerry said, I'm sorry, but I have a situation
Speaker 3: here and this other woman I'm dating is upset and
Speaker 3: she has a really good sport about it, and Jerry,
Speaker 3: that's okay. You know, we've both been there. Let me
Speaker 3: know when you get it worked out. So she left
Speaker 3: and Liz came in and wanted to get into an
Speaker 3: argument with Dad. Now he just wanted her to go.
Speaker 3: He was really frustrated because of his date with Cherry
Speaker 3: was ruined and now he had Liz up set. And
Speaker 3: finally she left and he Cherry and she invited him
Speaker 3: to her place. So they actually ended up having you know,
Speaker 3: a nice date that first night together, and they hung
Speaker 3: out at Terry Sauce. But I don't hello it is Ryan.
Speaker 4: And I was on a flight the other day playing
Speaker 4: one of my favorite social spin slot games on chumbacasino
Speaker 4: dot com. I looked over the person sitting next to me.
Speaker 4: You know what they were doing. They were also playing
Speaker 4: Chumba Casino. Coincidence, I think not everybody's loving having fun
Speaker 4: with it. Chumpa Casino's home to the hundreds of casino style
Speaker 4: games that you can play for free, anytime, anywhere, even
Speaker 4: at thirty thousand feet. So sign up now at Chumbuckcasino
Speaker 4: dot com to claim you're free welcome bonus. That's Chumbuck
Speaker 4: Casino dot com and live the chumber line.
Speaker 1: No We're necessary dally Rood where every by lost in
Speaker 1: terms of conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 3: I think they were alone. I think there was probably
Speaker 3: someone working outside quitball them.
Speaker 2: You talk about that. Liz was also adamant that now
Speaker 2: on November tenth, she asked if they could get together sometime,
Speaker 2: but also that she was had some pots and pans
Speaker 2: at the house, so he offered instead of her coming over,
Speaker 2: for him to deliver those. When he delivered those pots
Speaker 2: and pans, what happened.
Speaker 3: He barely made it in the door, and she excused him,
Speaker 3: and he said, hey, you know, one last time, you know,
Speaker 3: almost like goodbuye and you know, have a little fun.
Speaker 3: And he and Cherry were not in a committed relationship.
Speaker 3: She felt the way he did that she wasn't ready
Speaker 3: to be tied down. So it wasn't as if he
Speaker 3: was cheating on Carrie. And he thought that that would
Speaker 3: be it. He thought that that would be the end. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: she wasn't ready. Liz was not ready to let go.
Speaker 2: It was interesting too that shortly after there was a
Speaker 2: man named Sam Carver. We're talking about Facebook now. He
Speaker 2: asked to be Carrie Farver's friend on Facebook. And they
Speaker 2: were from a small place. Macedonia is very small she
Speaker 2: didn't know him. She contact and said do I know you?
Speaker 2: And he said, well, I know you. But what was
Speaker 2: interesting is, and this will be important later he spelled Macedonia,
Speaker 2: the place he lived in incorrectly.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, And that was a little suspicious to her,
Speaker 3: and she didn't accept or reject his friend request. I
Speaker 3: think she was ruling them around.
Speaker 2: Now, this relationship with Dave and Carrie is going at
Speaker 2: a pretty good pace. They're really enjoying each other and
Speaker 2: they're staying with each other. There was a situation where
Speaker 2: she wanted to stay at the apartment. She had a
Speaker 2: big job and she'd be closer to her work, and
Speaker 2: her son Maxwell stayed with her with her mother Nancy.
Speaker 2: This had only been two weeks since her first date
Speaker 2: with Dave. Now we're talking about Tuesday, November thirteenth, twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: She got up early and Dave had to be worked
Speaker 2: for six thirty. She was a computer coder at this
Speaker 2: West corporation, so she got up early and did some
Speaker 2: coding for work. What happens later when Carrie is supposed
Speaker 2: to show up at work.
Speaker 3: What happens, Well, she doesn't show up, and they were
Speaker 3: right in the middle of a big project, and her
Speaker 3: supervisor was surprised because Carrie was very dependable, and so
Speaker 3: she called and there was no answer, and she kept
Speaker 3: calling all day and there was no work from her
Speaker 3: at all.
Speaker 2: InCred Well, what about Carrie's mom, Nancy, she was taking
Speaker 2: care of her son. What happened? She hasn't heard for
Speaker 2: a couple of days.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Nancy was very concerned because she talked to Carrie
Speaker 3: almost every day. They were very, very close, and all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, she's getting these texts that are coming
Speaker 3: from Carrie's number, and they don't really sound like Carrie.
Speaker 3: For one thing, Carrie was meticulous us with grammar and punctuation,
Speaker 3: and she would never send a text until it was perfect.
Speaker 3: And so suddenly here come these texts with these these
Speaker 3: misspelled words and really come not Cherry style at all.
Speaker 3: And she's saying that she's going to quit her job
Speaker 3: and move away. And her mother was really shocked to
Speaker 3: hear that. She wasn't quite sure what was going on.
Speaker 2: She called police, did police she showed them the text?
Speaker 2: What did police have to say about her concerns?
Speaker 3: Well, they were they were polite, but they didn't think
Speaker 3: it was really caused or alarm, and really most of
Speaker 3: the time when adults are reported missing, they were okay.
Speaker 3: So it was sort of a logical conclusion for them
Speaker 3: because they didn't really know Nancy and they didn't know that,
Speaker 3: you know, she wasn't want to raise an alarm without cause.
Speaker 3: And they politely took the information, but they didn't at
Speaker 3: that point to any deep investigation did. They checked out
Speaker 3: a few things, and they soon learned that some vandalism
Speaker 3: had been reported in Omaha and that Carrie was being
Speaker 3: blamed for that. So they thought that maybe Carrie looked
Speaker 3: out told her mother, you know, we see this all
Speaker 3: the time, people stopped kicking their meds, you know, and
Speaker 3: they lose it, and she probably does how to break down,
Speaker 3: and her set didn't sound right to her mother, but
Speaker 3: she wanted to believe it was that because the other
Speaker 3: things she was thinking were so much worse.
Speaker 2: Right at the same time, unbeknownst to Nancy and Dave
Speaker 2: is receiving texts apparently from Carrie. What kind of messages
Speaker 2: is he getting and what is he noticing in terms
Speaker 2: of spelling and grammar as well?
Speaker 3: Well. Dave left Cherrie at his apartment that first morning,
Speaker 3: and she's not a comfort her and he went to
Speaker 3: work and mid morning he got a text from her
Speaker 3: saying let's move in together. And that struck him as
Speaker 3: odd because he made such a point with her that
Speaker 3: he wanted to be free and he thought she felt
Speaker 3: the same, and so he said, no, we were not
Speaker 3: going to do that, and he received back a very
Speaker 3: rude text basically breaking up with him. Done him because
Speaker 3: it really didn't sound like Carrie. But heret the message
Speaker 3: came from her phone, and at that point he didn't
Speaker 3: he didn't question it. He just thought, well, maybe I
Speaker 3: didn't know whose lady as well as I thought, because
Speaker 3: they'd been dating a couple of weeks and people are
Speaker 3: on their best behavior in the beginning, and so he
Speaker 3: was kind of rattled by it, but he accepted it
Speaker 3: and he thought they'd broken up.
Speaker 2: Nancy had a different situation when she listened to these
Speaker 2: texts or read these texts, in that she just wanted
Speaker 2: to talk to her daughter. In that regard, what did
Speaker 2: she say to her daughter via those texts to try
Speaker 2: to elicit a response that she wanted.
Speaker 3: She said, I've really wanted to hear your voice. I
Speaker 3: need you to call you know, this isn't talking. I
Speaker 3: need to hear you, because she was doubting that it
Speaker 3: was Carrie. It didn't sound her daughter. It was a
Speaker 3: very spot coming in, we're very rude.
Speaker 2: One thing that they announced as well of the detective,
Speaker 2: our Deputy Sheriff Phillips is involved in another detective Ron Ambrose,
Speaker 2: the interview with workers that worked with Carrie, and they
Speaker 2: said no sign that she might have been thinking of
Speaker 2: leading or there was any problem whatsoever. Then Carrie's supervisor
Speaker 2: got a text. What was it said in that text?
Speaker 2: And then what was the recommendation apparently made by Carrie?
Speaker 3: The text said that Carrie was quitting without notice. It
Speaker 3: was supposedly from Carrie. It came from her number and
Speaker 3: said I'm and replacement over her name is is uh
Speaker 3: Shanna Golier, Janna loves. They thought that was odd because
Speaker 3: you don't name your own replacement. Was it was a
Speaker 3: They have a very grueling hiring process. It involves a
Speaker 3: lot of interviews. People have to be qualified, and they
Speaker 3: they they're not hired by a friend or by somebody
Speaker 3: who you know who's quittings. So they thought it was
Speaker 3: really strange, you know. They they hadn't Carrie had worked
Speaker 3: he for a few months and they hadn't known her
Speaker 3: all that long. From what they knew of her, she
Speaker 3: was really responsible and a good worker, but nobody knew
Speaker 3: her as well. Her family did, as well as her
Speaker 3: mother did her. Her mother and son were the only
Speaker 3: ones who are initially really alarmed, and also her her stepfather,
Speaker 3: the people who knew her the best. But the rest
Speaker 3: of the world seemed to be bored with the idea
Speaker 3: that she just flipped out.
Speaker 2: To add credence to this these texts, she also or
Speaker 2: the Carrie apparently also texted Deputy Phillips what did she
Speaker 2: What did she say in that text to Deputy Phillips.
Speaker 3: Well, when the detectives, you know, started nosing around in Omaha,
Speaker 3: they talked today they actually came up with the name
Speaker 3: was Golier because Nancy Raey had received a photograph of
Speaker 3: a check for five thousand dollars from Simmar named his Gowlier,
Speaker 3: and it came from Cherry's phone and it said, Hey, Mom,
Speaker 3: I sold my furniture. I want you to let this
Speaker 3: person in the house to come get my stuff, and
Speaker 3: Nancy refused. So because they had this name, the detectives
Speaker 3: did go to Liza's house. They left a message for her,
Speaker 3: and Liz called them back and said, yes, there's this
Speaker 3: little then flipped out and you know, she's stalking Moose
Speaker 3: and broke into my garage and she stole on my
Speaker 3: checks and you know, she wrote on the wall. And
Speaker 3: so the detective thought, well, this confirms what we've been
Speaker 3: thinking as Carrie has flipped out, And then they went
Speaker 3: and talked with Daves. And shortly after that the detective
Speaker 3: actually been trying to reach Carrie and was calling her
Speaker 3: phone and he got a text message saying that, you know,
Speaker 3: I wanted to leave day alone. My mother ever reacted,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm bye blah blah blah, so that she like, yeah,
Speaker 3: and sence she was. She said some kind of the
Speaker 3: text said some kind of threatening things about Liz. So
Speaker 3: the police thought, wow, Carrie seems like she's you know,
Speaker 3: she's really aggressive toward live. We better warn live. So
Speaker 3: they told Liz, well, maybe you should get a restraining order.
Speaker 3: And they wondered, you know, this could be a dangerous situation.
Speaker 3: They didn't Cherry, you know, they didn't know that she
Speaker 3: was a kind, thoughtful person who had never hurt anybody
Speaker 3: in her life. All they knew was what they were
Speaker 3: hearing from Nancy and Terrie's moms. And of course the
Speaker 3: mother is always going to say there's things about their kids.
Speaker 3: So I think the priest don't take what parents say
Speaker 3: at face value. And they're listening to Today and Liz
Speaker 3: telling them about these food checks that they're receiving. So
Speaker 3: they accepted the idea that Dick Cherry was causing trouble.
Speaker 2: Let's Jesus as an opportunity. Leslie, just not for a
Speaker 2: second to talk about our sponsor, which is ritual. We
Speaker 2: all want to do the right thing to keep our
Speaker 2: bodies healthy in the long run, but even if we
Speaker 2: try really hard to eat kale salads and drink green smoothies,
Speaker 2: we're still most likely not getting all of the essential
Speaker 2: nutrients we need on a daily basis. Enter Ritual the
Speaker 2: obsessively researched vitamin for women. Rituals Essentials have the nutrients
Speaker 2: most of us don't get enough of from food, all
Speaker 2: in their clean absorbable forms, no shady additives or ingredients
Speaker 2: that can do more harm to your body than good.
Speaker 2: Two easy to take capsules provide nine nutrients you need
Speaker 2: to support a strong foundation for your health. My wife
Speaker 2: Lisa's been taking Ritual for almost three months now. She
Speaker 2: loves that there's no stores she needs to visit, and
Speaker 2: she really respected Ritual's research into creating this vitamin. She's
Speaker 2: very impressed and she feels rituals helping her feel better
Speaker 2: and says she can feel the difference Ritual has made
Speaker 2: from D three to Omega three. Ritual's Essential for Women
Speaker 2: helps fill gaps in a women's diet. There are no
Speaker 2: nausea capsule, design is gentle on an empty stomach, and
Speaker 2: there's a mint tab in every bottle that keep things
Speaker 2: fresh so you don't get that fishy aftertaste common with
Speaker 2: most Omega threes. A subscription is easy to start and
Speaker 2: it's easy to snooze. It's only a dollar a day
Speaker 2: to have all the essential nutrients your body needs delivered
Speaker 2: every month, no strings attached. Her health doesn't happen overnight,
Speaker 2: and right now, Ritual is offering my listeners ten percent
Speaker 2: off during your first three months. Fill in the gaps
Speaker 2: in your diet with Essential for Women, a small step
Speaker 2: that helps support a healthy foundation for your body. Visit
Speaker 2: ritual dot com slash murder to start your Ritual today.
Speaker 2: That's ten percent off during your first three months at
Speaker 2: ritual dot com. Slash murder. Now, Leslie, we have this
Speaker 2: situation where the police believe that Carrie isn't taking her
Speaker 2: meds and that she's having a breakdown, and that Liz
Speaker 2: is in danger, and they believe the ruse that this stalker,
Speaker 2: this person is putting forth. What happens next in terms
Speaker 2: of the escalation of the texts from Liz and the
Speaker 2: relationship that she's trying to force upon Dave, how does
Speaker 2: that fair?
Speaker 3: Well? Actually, thousands and thousands text and emails are sent,
Speaker 3: and over the next years in Live and Dave had
Speaker 3: had parted ways, and because she was so upset about
Speaker 3: Terry that now they were bonding because they were both
Speaker 3: seemingly be stopped by a crazy person, and so they
Speaker 3: started seeing each other again. And Liz told them, oh,
Speaker 3: she's you know, she's scared, and you know, why come?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm so scared of this pratty woman is
Speaker 3: you know, after me? And why couldn't you have just
Speaker 3: been satisfied with what you had? You had to go
Speaker 3: and buy this lunatic into our lives? And and Day
Speaker 3: felt horrible because she thought, well, look, what I've done.
Speaker 3: You know, I dated somebody who's causing problems for the
Speaker 3: people I know, because she also thought the stocker was
Speaker 3: actually also sending messages to Amy his ax, and some
Speaker 3: of the messages were really threatening. He got worried about
Speaker 3: his kids, I mean his kids. I would come over
Speaker 3: and watched them very very carefully, even though they were older,
Speaker 3: they were preteens. That he got very worried because it
Speaker 3: seemed like that somebody with a screw loose was set
Speaker 3: on pausing him harm.
Speaker 2: At the same time that he would have problems with Liz,
Speaker 2: and again her jealousy would come to the forefront, so
Speaker 2: he would they would take a pause in their relationship.
Speaker 2: He continued to date and meet women online. Those women
Speaker 2: that he met what was characterized by soon after he
Speaker 2: met them and had a relationship with them, what would.
Speaker 3: Happen anytime he dated somebody or even message with them online,
Speaker 3: they would receive streats from his stalker. And it understandably
Speaker 3: they were upset and they were interested in dating him.
Speaker 3: When he came with a stalker, it was pretty scary
Speaker 3: to them. So he found that there was only one
Speaker 3: person who was loyal, only one person who would stand
Speaker 3: by his side, and that was Liz, And Liz was
Speaker 3: not deterred by the stretch from the stalker, and so
Speaker 3: he was grateful to her for that because she was
Speaker 3: sticking around and nobody else would. But he still didn't
Speaker 3: want he didn't love her, He didn't want to be
Speaker 3: in a long time relationship with her. She was okay company,
Speaker 3: you know, and they had something in common now they
Speaker 3: were both being stopped. So that was really the basis
Speaker 3: for their whole relationship, said ninety nine percent of the time,
Speaker 3: they were talking about the stalker, talking about how they
Speaker 3: could the stalker, talking about what the stalker was going
Speaker 3: to do next, And that was their whole life was
Speaker 3: dealing with this and thinking about it and talking about it.
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, in this story, there's a person named Garrett Sloan
Speaker 2: and he works at the IT department at this part
Speaker 2: of what Tommy County. But he's also in a relationship
Speaker 2: with someone for well maybe a fair amount of time,
Speaker 2: and tell us about this relationship that he believes he's
Speaker 2: in and what he thinks and his meeting with Liz, well.
Speaker 3: He actually he met he met a woman online also
Speaker 3: and it happened to be Liz Golier, who was so
Speaker 3: obsessed with Dave and insisting that Dave crucively yet the
Speaker 3: whole time. She'd been dating Garrett for the last couple
Speaker 3: of years, and she kept him the sacret from Dave
Speaker 3: and me. He was oblivious. Garrett was just a very
Speaker 3: very nice guy, had no idea that his girlfriend was
Speaker 3: cheating on him, no idea. He didn't know who Dave
Speaker 3: Cooper was. He thought everything was fine. He also was
Speaker 3: not in love with Live, but he liked her a
Speaker 3: lot and he hoped that their relationship could develop. That
Speaker 3: he was not in love.
Speaker 2: What did Garrett represent to her and present?
Speaker 3: She ard him quite a bit. She helped her out
Speaker 3: with things. I actually think that if he had given
Speaker 3: her any reason to be jealous, she would have found
Speaker 3: him more attractive and would have become obsessed with him too.
Speaker 3: And I think that for her, the challenge of trying
Speaker 3: to win a guy is what excited her the most.
Speaker 3: And because Garrett was a very nice guy and he
Speaker 3: never gave her any reason to worry or be jealous,
Speaker 3: she lost interests. She hung around because he helped her
Speaker 3: out financially, and even the nice guy is easy to
Speaker 3: be around. They had a physical relationship, but her true
Speaker 3: obsession was with day you.
Speaker 2: Right about a July fourth, they were together, Garrett and Liz,
Speaker 2: but she spent four hours on the phone texting with
Speaker 2: apparently a mechanic was just a friend. Garrett is not
Speaker 2: a stupid man, but he did have his suspicions about
Speaker 2: this four hour car But when he confronted her, what
Speaker 2: would she always say and how would she act?
Speaker 3: Anytime he was suspicious about something and asked about it,
Speaker 3: she would slip it on him to make it seem
Speaker 3: like that he was acting jealous and that he was
Speaker 3: being unreasonable. And she's very very good at to him
Speaker 3: that was the case. And these people are, and these
Speaker 3: social paths, particularly the female sociopaths, know how to manipulate
Speaker 3: and making flip situations around to make themselves look good
Speaker 3: and make everybody else at bad. And she made him
Speaker 3: feel like he was being a jerk for his suspicion,
Speaker 3: so he would always back off. And he's a really nice,
Speaker 3: easy going guy, but he would he would just he'd think, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, she's obviously she's with me, she's sticking around,
Speaker 3: so you know it must be my imagination.
Speaker 2: That's some point, there becomes a change in the detectives
Speaker 2: that were invested. Well, we talked about the first people
Speaker 2: initially looked at this They had gathered information, They had
Speaker 2: taken Carrie's vehicle, they had taken photographs, they had examined it.
Speaker 2: They did, as you write, gather a lot of information,
Speaker 2: not necessarily seeing what was going on. They didn't know,
Speaker 2: but they did do a good job of collecting, preserving evidence,
Speaker 2: taking photographs. At some point there's a new change and
Speaker 2: a detective Doughtie and a Detective Avis come on the
Speaker 2: scene and they have a different approach. They look at
Speaker 2: this case differently, and then they want to speak to Garrett.
Speaker 2: But what is their different approach and then tell us
Speaker 2: about their conversation with Garrett and what they tell him.
Speaker 3: Well, Givis and DOUTI a book very smart. They were
Speaker 3: not buying what everybody was saying about Cherry Bay and stalker,
Speaker 3: and they thought it was suspect, so they decided, let's
Speaker 3: excuse One of them approached it and investigated it as
Speaker 3: if Carrie were alive and was stalking, and the other
Speaker 3: one approached it as if she was dead, And they
Speaker 3: were quickly able to determine she Li wasn't alive. Nobody
Speaker 3: had seen her, heard her voice her.
Speaker 4: Lucky Land casino, asking people, what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 4: gotten lucky? Lucky in line at the deli, I guess
Speaker 4: hide my dentist's office more than months. Actually, do I
Speaker 4: have to say?
Speaker 3: Yes? You do?
Speaker 4: In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?
Speaker 3: Really?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: Excuse me?
Speaker 1: What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 3: I never went in? Tell? Well, there you have it.
Speaker 4: You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot
Speaker 4: com play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky? No,
Speaker 4: We're not necessary void long eighteen plus terms conditions of
Speaker 4: Poe Worts every details.
Speaker 3: Paychecks were picked up. No money had been withdrawn from
Speaker 3: her bank except for a couple of year. Couple of
Speaker 3: days after she was not seen. Somebody used her debit
Speaker 3: card a Walmart and a dollar store in Omaha that
Speaker 3: other than and then the bank. It was not Carrie's
Speaker 3: unusual pattern, but it just didn't make sense that she
Speaker 3: would abandon her child, her dying father, her mother, She
Speaker 3: was close to her house, her job. It made no sense,
Speaker 3: and so they quietly determined that Cherry was along her
Speaker 3: life and that was actually couple guys they want where
Speaker 3: I believe who called Garrett into top to him about
Speaker 3: the situation with his girl friend being stunned by a
Speaker 3: woman Nade Carrie and Garrett didn't even learn about this
Speaker 3: alleged stocking until the morning that he was called in
Speaker 3: for the interviews, and the first time Liz ever mentioned
Speaker 3: it to him that morning. She didn't say who it was,
Speaker 3: she just said somebody was bothering her. And he went
Speaker 3: in and he sat down and the detectives asked him
Speaker 3: what his relationship was Liz was, and he said, you know,
Speaker 3: we're well, you know, we were a couple. We've been
Speaker 3: in a relationship for a couple of years, and that
Speaker 3: they were exclusive, and they said something that sort of shunned.
Speaker 3: They told him that Liz was having an affair with
Speaker 3: a man named Dave Trooper and that there was his
Speaker 3: name Curry, who was really jealous whose stocking both and
Speaker 3: Dave because of them, And then they tould they got
Speaker 3: this information a lot of the information of their from
Speaker 3: Liz's fun because she and Dave had actually left the
Speaker 3: police download their phone in the hopes that it would
Speaker 3: help them catch the stucker. When the police did that,
Speaker 3: they can use Garrett in one of the pictures. And
Speaker 3: then it's how they knew to teak to him. And
Speaker 3: they told him they said she had your picture labeled
Speaker 3: that ass and they showed him the picture that there's
Speaker 3: no label on it, and he wasn't street. That didn't
Speaker 3: sound like because he'd do that. And after the interview
Speaker 3: he asked her about everything they told him, and she said, oh,
Speaker 3: they had it all wrong. How dare he accused her
Speaker 3: of dating Dave days with all prim and they saw
Speaker 3: each other when the kids played together, and you know,
Speaker 3: she said, the very just we told you. You know,
Speaker 3: I just told you this morning I was being stopped
Speaker 3: and of course you would label a picture of him
Speaker 3: sat and how dare he suggest such a thing. So
Speaker 3: once again she flipped it around on him. So he
Speaker 3: felt foolish. She thought he felt like he'd done something wrong.
Speaker 3: Same time he said there was a seed planted, a
Speaker 3: seed of doubt and it grew.
Speaker 2: This noose is tightening around Liz gol year. And when
Speaker 2: I mentioned about the forensic evidence, the digital forensic evidence
Speaker 2: of the phones, there is a special deputy Kava that
Speaker 2: does an amazing job of organizing all of these things,
Speaker 2: all of the emails and texts. But also they find
Speaker 2: things like metadata showing that the photo taken there was
Speaker 2: a photostake takens that she had sent in text that
Speaker 2: looked like somebody was a fake kidnapping. They look at
Speaker 2: that data data and realize that that had come from
Speaker 2: a phone identical to the one Liz goll Your had.
Speaker 2: But all of this evidence, as you write, is all circumstantial.
Speaker 2: As they tighten the noose, they need more and more
Speaker 2: and more to put this thing together. There's not enough evidence.
Speaker 2: There's not a body, there's not a murder weapon, and
Speaker 2: is a very confusing case. So what they do is
Speaker 2: they they keep putting the pressure on, and Dodi says
Speaker 2: that he loves the interrogation process itself, so he plays
Speaker 2: her acts like Colombo gets information out of her. By
Speaker 2: this point, strangely, she has pointed and said that Carrie
Speaker 2: is no longer sending her messages and she believes that
Speaker 2: Carrie is not the stalker, but Amy is now the stalker.
Speaker 2: With Detective Doughtie and with Detective Avis News and eventually
Speaker 2: they get search warrants for her for Garrett's and for
Speaker 2: her apartment. At that apartment that you say, it's a
Speaker 2: motherload of information. What do they find at that apartment
Speaker 2: that's incriminating a.
Speaker 3: Number of things, including a video camera that have been
Speaker 3: stolen from Cherry's house, and within that there was actually
Speaker 3: a video of Carrie, so they knew that it was
Speaker 3: definitely camera, so right there that Liz had actually gone
Speaker 3: into her home and taken something. They found other telephones
Speaker 3: they could connect like cell phones, they connect to some
Speaker 3: of the texts and the emails that were sent, and
Speaker 3: it was actually a huge message they had to piece
Speaker 3: together because there were so many texts and so many emails,
Speaker 3: and she had open email accounts, very many different names,
Speaker 3: so they had to untangle all of that. It was
Speaker 3: a grueling process.
Speaker 2: There also was a one print left in Harry's vehicle.
Speaker 2: It was on a mint box and that was a match.
Speaker 2: So they put all this circumstantial evidence together. She's eventually arrested.
Speaker 2: Tell us about that arrested.
Speaker 3: Well, the ultimate arrest. She is arrested in question earlier on.
Speaker 3: In the end, they finally had enough evidence. It was
Speaker 3: a huge pile of evidence, and they went to her.
Speaker 3: She had moved to Persia, Iowa, and was living in
Speaker 3: an apartment over on. It's kind of a creepy well
Speaker 3: building that used to be in a funeral home. And
Speaker 3: they went there and knocked up the door and she
Speaker 3: woke her up. She came out on her fault and
Speaker 3: they put the cuffs on her and she was done.
Speaker 2: She gets a defense lawyer, you write, that's James Martin Davis.
Speaker 2: Nebraska has the death penalties a capital case. But however,
Speaker 2: with a female and with all the mitigating circumstances or
Speaker 2: pardon me, aggravating circumstances, how does this trial proceed and
Speaker 2: what happens at this trial?
Speaker 3: Ultimately, well, it was kind of interesting because the prosecutors
Speaker 3: were very, very good and some of the defense attorney
Speaker 3: so they all had really good arguments, But ultimately, the
Speaker 3: evidence that the prosecutors had it was it was so
Speaker 3: powerful that there was no getting around it. There was
Speaker 3: quite a bit of evidence, but the most powerful piece
Speaker 3: was something that the detectives didn't have. At the time
Speaker 3: they arrested her, they were getting close to trial time
Speaker 3: and her attorney had wisely set the trial for there
Speaker 3: was like three months after the time she was arrested,
Speaker 3: three or four months, and the prosecutors normally have over
Speaker 3: a year a month of two years that her attorney
Speaker 3: did not want to give detectives time to find a body,
Speaker 3: and nobody cases are more difficult to prosecute, so they
Speaker 3: were rushing trying to get everything ready, and one of
Speaker 3: the detectives stopped by and Dave Cooper's work and said,
Speaker 3: is there is there anything else any other electronic device
Speaker 3: that you might have forgotten about? And you know, I
Speaker 3: think there's a tablet in storage, So he went and
Speaker 3: looked in surener there was one there, and they found
Speaker 3: that the disk in that tablet had been recycled and
Speaker 3: it had one time been in Lizzie phone, and she
Speaker 3: had deleted photos that she thought were gone forever, and
Speaker 3: some of them were extremely incriminating. There were actually photographs
Speaker 3: of a tattoo and it looked like it was on
Speaker 3: a foot, but it was kind of hard to tell.
Speaker 3: They had a forensic pathologist study it and it turned
Speaker 3: out it was a photograph of Cherry's tattoo on a
Speaker 3: foot in a state of dictay. So they had photographed
Speaker 3: her after death as souvenirs probably and then decided to
Speaker 3: get rid of it. She probably thought it was incriminating
Speaker 3: to keep it around, and when she deleted it, she
Speaker 3: thought it was gone forever, but it wasn't. It's about
Speaker 3: the most powerful.
Speaker 2: Evidence, the circumstantial evidence, not that anyone will absolutely conclusively know.
Speaker 2: But they put together Lizz's comments as a stalker, and
Speaker 2: they said that some of it was pure fantasy. You
Speaker 2: read some of pure fantasy, but a lot of it
Speaker 2: was incriminating accurate evidence from that circumstantial as much as
Speaker 2: best guests. And putting it all together, what did Avis
Speaker 2: and Dodie and then the prosecutor basically say had happened
Speaker 2: to carry farvar memory?
Speaker 3: Well, the stoker had sent letters, sent emails now claiming
Speaker 3: that she was Amy or who was a very very
Speaker 3: sweet woman who had never heard anybody, and again that
Speaker 3: stay effects. And while in Amy's name, the stalkers said
Speaker 3: that they had attacked Cherrie in her car and stabbed her.
Speaker 3: So the detectives had already searched the car in the
Speaker 3: car been fold since then, so they trapped down the
Speaker 3: new owners and got permissioned to study it. And they
Speaker 3: pulled out the front seat and peeled back the cover
Speaker 3: and found that the passenger seat had at one time
Speaker 3: been drenched with blood. They could still see the blood
Speaker 3: in the seat, so that fit in the email, the
Speaker 3: threatening email that had come in. It was supposedly confess
Speaker 3: from Amy that somebody was trying to frame Amy and
Speaker 3: make it look like that she had stabbed Carrie in
Speaker 3: the car. So there were little things like that that
Speaker 3: said truth. Somebody had led in that seat, and the
Speaker 3: detectives decided that this is where unfortunately Paul Kerry had
Speaker 3: probably died and this is where she was attacked. But
Speaker 3: they knew Amy hadn't done it. But now they trace
Speaker 3: all the emails directly to this, they knew whe they
Speaker 3: were coming from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one last thing as well, an interesting thing was
Speaker 2: again not proof, but there was some indication there was
Speaker 2: photo sent in those stocking texts about a burnt tarp.
Speaker 2: So what did they surmise in terms of the disposal,
Speaker 2: again and everybody was never found, what did they surmise happened?
Speaker 3: Well, nobody really knows for sure, and it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's not something that anyone likes to contemplate that they
Speaker 3: think that it was very likely that she burned Carrie
Speaker 3: after death, and we don't know, you know, if she
Speaker 3: burned part of her or all of her, but her
Speaker 3: body's never been found.
Speaker 2: You talk about the trial and Carrie's family being present,
Speaker 2: and Nancy also being present as well, and also the
Speaker 2: odd behavior of Liz's gallier. So tell us what how
Speaker 2: she responded to this entire trial and then tell us
Speaker 2: what the outcome was.
Speaker 3: Well, some of the testimony was absolutely heartbreaking and there
Speaker 3: were people crying, I mean, the wonderful woman Carrie lost
Speaker 3: your life, but Liz was unmoved by that. She barely
Speaker 3: had a flicker of expression on her face. The only
Speaker 3: time she lit up is when Dave took the stand,
Speaker 3: and then she gazed at him adoringly. But other than that,
Speaker 3: she's unfaced. So that was kind of you know, you
Speaker 3: watch help some of the aposiop once they're arrested, and
Speaker 3: her reaction is often really flat. They can be really
Speaker 3: good at imitating emotion. The other times they're just flat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was a victory for the prosecution and for
Speaker 2: the detectives and for the families. She didn't get the
Speaker 2: death penalty, but what was her sentence. She was also
Speaker 2: convicted for the arson as well.
Speaker 3: Yes, she is imprisoned from and she's still trying to
Speaker 3: prove her innocence, and she did write me a letter
Speaker 3: about that, and she's already she's not getting out, and
Speaker 3: I'm appeal but she believes she's getting she believes she
Speaker 3: can do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was sad too that during this that Carrie's
Speaker 2: father had died of cancer. There's very sad story for
Speaker 2: many people in this. Nancy got some answers, but again,
Speaker 2: not not a happy ending by any means. Anthony Kava
Speaker 2: did an admirable job here, And so what about Maxwell,
Speaker 2: What about Terry's sons.
Speaker 3: He's doing really well. He's doing really well. He's going
Speaker 3: to college and he's going into moving on computers, also
Speaker 3: getting coding like his mother dad, and he's getting married
Speaker 3: and he's a strong young man. And so they're doing
Speaker 3: the you know, it's just a short break for the family.
Speaker 3: Something you'll never get over that they're doing as well
Speaker 3: as can be expected. And they're the nicest people, just
Speaker 3: really really kind, down the earth people, the whole family,
Speaker 3: and it's just very sad that this tragedy had the history. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and truly have so much to give. She was young,
Speaker 3: she was very young, and she was a good, good
Speaker 3: person and her friends and mess her turkey in her
Speaker 3: family absolutely.
Speaker 2: Now with as a result of this book too. I
Speaker 2: mentioned Special Deputy Anthony cava at the end of this book.
Speaker 2: He has a website for tips on staying safe in
Speaker 2: the CyberWorld, and also you provide that link, but also
Speaker 2: your link which is just a little bit easier to remember.
Speaker 2: I guess www dot author Leslierule dot com. And again
Speaker 2: I think it's in keeping with saving lives, getting people
Speaker 2: to understand this and to be cautioned by this. So
Speaker 2: you provide this link for people to again tips on
Speaker 2: staying safe in the CyberWorld.
Speaker 3: Would you find reading on his website is because I
Speaker 3: don't have it in front of me, and that would
Speaker 3: be good if people would like to go to the
Speaker 3: website and see his tips. Do you have that in
Speaker 3: front of you.
Speaker 2: I don't have it in front of me, but I will,
Speaker 2: I said, But like I say, yours is much easier,
Speaker 2: and you can go to either www dot author Leslierule
Speaker 2: dot com and then you can contribute to Anthony Caviata's
Speaker 2: website or take a look at it. I want to
Speaker 2: thank you so much Leslie for coming on and talking
Speaker 2: about this true crime debut and It is an incredible
Speaker 2: true crime debut, A Tangled Web, a cyber snalker, a
Speaker 2: deadly obsession, and a twisting path to justice. I want
Speaker 2: to thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 3: Well, thanks for having me. It was really nice suppose
Speaker 3: with you.
Speaker 2: And again we just mentioned your website for people who
Speaker 2: want to find out more information about this. Of course,
Speaker 2: this is an audiobook, paperback and ebook everywhere available. Again,
Speaker 2: I want to thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 2: and talking about your incredible A Tangled Web. It's been fantastic.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, good night,