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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them, Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good evening, Oh my god,
Speaker 2: we found a dead body. The man's voice calling from
Speaker 2: a mountain trail in Cleveland National Forest was frantic. Please hurry,
Speaker 2: it's so scared. It's a little kid. When police arrived,
Speaker 2: they were met by a horrific sight. The girl was
Speaker 2: naked and had been positioned in such a way that
Speaker 2: detectives believes the murderer had seen his kill as some
Speaker 2: kind of a trophy, as if he were showing off
Speaker 2: his work. The little kid was Samantha Runyon, a five
Speaker 2: year old girl who had been abducted while playing in
Speaker 2: her parents' garden the day before. Samantha is just one
Speaker 2: of too many American kids who disappear. Almost half a
Speaker 2: million children are reported missing every year, and all across America,
Speaker 2: parents are searching for their missing children, or, if the
Speaker 2: worst case scenarios come to pass, the person who killed them.
Speaker 2: Mums of the Missing investigates ten abduction cases through personal
Speaker 2: and heartbreaking interviews with the victims. It describes how parents
Speaker 2: maintain their hopes of one day finding their children, some
Speaker 2: of whom were taken by a stranger, a family member,
Speaker 2: or human traffickers, and turs tell what it's like to
Speaker 2: be held captive. Mums of the Missing explores the principal
Speaker 2: types of adductions and not of least importance, who's most
Speaker 2: likely to become a victim of the epidemic of missing children. Finally,
Speaker 2: the book describes how abductions can be prevented. The book
Speaker 2: that we're featuring this evening is Mums of the Missing,
Speaker 2: Living the Nightmare with my special guest journalist and author
Speaker 2: Stefan Howe. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 2: much for greenness interview.
Speaker 7: Stefan.
Speaker 6: Now, thank you very much, Stan, thank you for having
Speaker 6: me on.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much for thank you for coming back
Speaker 7: once again. It's good to have you back. Let's talk
Speaker 7: about right away, your experience that led to this book,
Speaker 7: your personal experience with human traffickers and tell us the
Speaker 7: reason for this book.
Speaker 6: Overall, the book has been underway for almost twenty years.
Speaker 6: When I started out as a journalist in two thousand
Speaker 6: and one, when I educated from the National School of
Speaker 6: Journalism in Denmark, I went to the capital of Serbia, Belgrade,
Speaker 6: to investigate human trafficking. It was right after the Civil
Speaker 6: War and the Balkans was a mecca for criminals. In general,
Speaker 6: there was no law and order and quickly human traffickers
Speaker 6: took advantage of the situation. And nobody knew much about
Speaker 6: human trafficking back then. Though it's you know, though it's
Speaker 6: only twenty years has passed, but twenty years ago it
Speaker 6: was something quite new, and there were these small blobs,
Speaker 6: these you know, unconfirmed stories, even within the European Union
Speaker 6: as an organization saying we believe that thousands and thousands
Speaker 6: of illegal immigrants are about to be trafficked into Europe
Speaker 6: from the Middle East, but also from a country like China.
Speaker 6: And I read a report that was authored by the
Speaker 6: European Union and it clearly stated that this is what
Speaker 6: we believe, not necessarily that this is what we know.
Speaker 6: So I decided to go to Serbia to actually take
Speaker 6: a look with my own eyes, and it was very
Speaker 6: clear that in a certain part of Belgrade there was
Speaker 6: thousands of China, these illegal immigrants, waiting to be passed
Speaker 6: on further into Europe. And I went to a certain
Speaker 6: mall where they had these small Chinese shops. All the
Speaker 6: I wouldn't say shop owners, that would be incorrect, but
Speaker 6: all the people worked. And I went there to investigate
Speaker 6: and to interview some of them, and it was very
Speaker 6: obvious that they were just waiting to be passed on.
Speaker 6: And as I was walking around in the mall around noon,
Speaker 6: the mall was crowded with people. In all of a sudden,
Speaker 6: I realized within a split second that a man came
Speaker 6: from behind and he got hold of me in like
Speaker 6: a chocold, and he pressed a gun against the timber
Speaker 6: of my head and forced me out of the mall.
Speaker 6: There were plenty of witnesses there, and no one did
Speaker 6: anything as he took me away from from the mall
Speaker 6: and down a dirt road. In this area that was
Speaker 6: like just being rebuilt after the Civil War and so on,
Speaker 6: it seemed very deserted, despite the fact that there were
Speaker 6: thousands of people in the area waiting to be trafficked,
Speaker 6: and he took me down the road and when we
Speaker 6: finally got to some workshaps he stopped and in a
Speaker 6: very direct way, he had commanded that I would stop
Speaker 6: my inquiries or these human traffickers, they would stop them
Speaker 6: for me, so to speak, you know, not to be
Speaker 6: It couldn't be misunderstood in any way. If I was
Speaker 6: not leaving, they were going to put a bullet to
Speaker 6: my head. At least that was what the message she
Speaker 6: was trying to convey, and it really did so to
Speaker 6: speak a number of me on me having this experience
Speaker 6: right away, as he grabbed hold of me and pressed
Speaker 6: his gun against my head, I had this debt fear
Speaker 6: and I felt so extremely alone. I've never felt so
Speaker 6: lone in my life before and never after. But I
Speaker 6: just needed someone there next to me. It could have
Speaker 6: been anyone. I just needed someone there. And it was
Speaker 6: because I realized that if I was going to live
Speaker 6: five minutes from that moment, it only depended on the
Speaker 6: kindness or willingness of this human trafficker. And it was
Speaker 6: in many ways extremely scaring realizing how you can lose
Speaker 6: control over your own life within seconds if there's just
Speaker 6: a guy or just a person in front of you
Speaker 6: with a gun, then in most situations you would lose
Speaker 6: your ability to defend yourself, and that feeling of being alone,
Speaker 6: and this did fear. It stuck with me many many
Speaker 6: years afterwards. But when that was also the creation of
Speaker 6: the reason why I decided to write this book. It
Speaker 6: had something to do with the fact that previous to
Speaker 6: my experience in Belgrade, I had covered two abduction cases
Speaker 6: in Demark for a daily newspaper. One of the cases
Speaker 6: was a ten year old girl who was taken in
Speaker 6: broad daylight from a beach. Her mom went swimming, and
Speaker 6: while she was swimming, you know, not far away from
Speaker 6: her daughter and where she could probably even keep an
Speaker 6: eye on her daughter, and she let down guards for
Speaker 6: probably just you know, half a minute, and this half
Speaker 6: minute was enough for a guide to grab hold of
Speaker 6: the ten year old daughter and take off with her.
Speaker 6: He took her to a wood where he raped this
Speaker 6: poor girl and he choked her afford. His law enforcement
Speaker 6: believed that the only reason why he let her be,
Speaker 6: why he left her in the woods afterwards, was because
Speaker 6: he probably thought that she was already dead. And I
Speaker 6: also investigated and wrote about another. It was a fifteen
Speaker 6: year old girl who had been taken from the streets
Speaker 6: as well, and she had been held hostage for a
Speaker 6: few days in a rural area, and for some reason,
Speaker 6: the guy who grabbed her, he let her go and
Speaker 6: it led to his Both we the mean of the crime.
Speaker 6: I stood in the wood looking at the place this
Speaker 6: girl was raped and choked. I went to the house
Speaker 6: where this fifteen year old girl had been held captive,
Speaker 6: and I looked inside the windows of where she had
Speaker 6: been the prisoner of evil. And I remember, standing at
Speaker 6: both sides, I had this you know, chilling feeling, or
Speaker 6: this scary feeling actually down my spine because it becomes
Speaker 6: so realistic and something that you would normally only read
Speaker 6: about in fiction books or in true crime books or
Speaker 6: watching the movie. And all of a sudden, it became
Speaker 6: so real to me that even kids can become victims
Speaker 6: of something that even the biggest, baddest grown men would
Speaker 6: fear becoming victims of. And as I had my own
Speaker 6: experience in Belgrade, feeling alone, I could not help back then,
Speaker 6: but also afterwards, for years and years and years to
Speaker 6: come help, thinking about how alone these two poor girls
Speaker 6: must have felt the moment that a stranger came and
Speaker 6: took them away from their parents and so on, and
Speaker 6: unfortunately it happens to way too many kids, not only
Speaker 6: in the States but around the world. And the thoughts
Speaker 6: that I had had about this loneliness they must all feel,
Speaker 6: and how scared they might have to be. I had
Speaker 6: to look into that by talking to some of the
Speaker 6: people who have actually experienced being abducted, but also talking
Speaker 6: to the left behinds, to the parents, to the relatives
Speaker 6: and so on. And that was the reason why I
Speaker 6: decided to write Moments of the Missing.
Speaker 7: You have divided the book into chapters describing the different
Speaker 7: types of child abductions and how they happen, who the
Speaker 7: victims and abductors are, and the magnitude of the problem.
Speaker 7: And you have different categories stranger abductions and trafficking abductions,
Speaker 7: family abductions, infant abductions, and long term abductions. And you
Speaker 7: also describe the danger that sex offenders pose to children.
Speaker 7: Let's get to a case that demonstrates so many of
Speaker 7: the things that you have seen in so many cases,
Speaker 7: but it's so profoundly demonstrates this. There's a girl named
Speaker 7: Alicia and if I mispronounced Kozakowitch from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, doctor
Speaker 7: January first, two thousand and two, and her mother is
Speaker 7: named Mary. Tell us about Alicia because you say that
Speaker 7: miracles rarely ever happen, but in this book you provide
Speaker 7: a couple of those. Let's tell our audience about Alicia.
Speaker 6: One of the reasons or the mean reason why decided
Speaker 6: students of you Alicia and write about hercule is also
Speaker 6: because she was a victim of a phenomenon that is,
Speaker 6: you know, just as new as human trafficking, and that
Speaker 6: is online predators. She was a thirteen year old girl
Speaker 6: who in the beginning of the New Millennium, she started
Speaker 6: chatting like many kids that did back then, and they
Speaker 6: went into these chat force on the internet that was
Speaker 6: familiar to them and so unfamiliar to their parents, meaning
Speaker 6: that their parents had no possibilities of actually protecting their
Speaker 6: kids about the dangers that the internet represented to kids
Speaker 6: back then. And now today we know a bit more
Speaker 6: about online danger than we did just back in two
Speaker 6: thousand and one when she started chatting and was taken
Speaker 6: by a online predator, but she believed actually that the
Speaker 6: person on the other side of the computer was a
Speaker 6: thirteen year old girl just like herself, and this person
Speaker 6: other young adults and kids on the internet, and you know,
Speaker 6: she talked about what school life was like, they exchanged
Speaker 6: school photos, they talked about fashion and so on, you know,
Speaker 6: like thirteen year olds do. And they even talked about
Speaker 6: what was happening with the entering puberty and all the
Speaker 6: curious curiosity that comes with that. But in fact, she
Speaker 6: was not chatting with a teenager. She realized that when
Speaker 6: this person she'd been chatting with for a long time
Speaker 6: invited her out of her parents' house just to come
Speaker 6: out for a brief hello, just so they could meet
Speaker 6: face to face after having been after been chatting online
Speaker 6: for months, it turned out to be a thirty eight
Speaker 6: year old man who grabbed her foster in her car
Speaker 6: in his car and took off from Pennsylvania and drove
Speaker 6: off to Virginia, where she was chained in a basement.
Speaker 6: She was raped, she was tortured, and partner my friend.
Speaker 6: But this sick animal, he was so keen on his
Speaker 6: new trophy that he had taken in Pittsburgh that he
Speaker 6: had to brag about it. So while raping her, he
Speaker 6: actually live streamed it to a forum of other sick
Speaker 6: individuals who got off on watching child horn and so on.
Speaker 6: And one of these viewers, a man in Florida. He
Speaker 6: actually afterwards became so nervous about what he had seen,
Speaker 6: perhaps not with the hum being done to the kid,
Speaker 6: but with the fact that if he'd been a viewer,
Speaker 6: if he'd been a witness, he might be an accomplished
Speaker 6: as well. So he called FBI and he gave up
Speaker 6: the username and the name of this chat room that
Speaker 6: these guys bragged about their trophies. And and with the
Speaker 6: help of ya who FBI was able to track down
Speaker 6: his IP address and and and who was actually the
Speaker 6: man behind the profile master of enslaved teenage girls. I
Speaker 6: believe that was one of his many profile names. And
Speaker 6: they raided his house in Virginia, and they did that
Speaker 6: in the afternoon, late afternoon, And when they did, they
Speaker 6: found a thirteen year old kid that was scared to death,
Speaker 6: not only because in all of a sudden you have
Speaker 6: FBI agents coming through the front door, but when this guy,
Speaker 6: Scott left the house in the morning, he conveyed a
Speaker 6: message to Alisha A grew some message. She said that
Speaker 6: he was becoming too fond of her, and therefore they
Speaker 6: would have to go for a drive when he came
Speaker 6: back from work. And though she was only thirteen years old,
Speaker 6: she decoded that message right away that this grown man
Speaker 6: was falling in love with her or was being too
Speaker 6: keen on having her in as a hostage in the basement,
Speaker 6: and eventually that will create problems for him. So he
Speaker 6: had to get rid of these problems in the afternoon,
Speaker 6: and she imagined how he would come back and bring
Speaker 6: her out to perhaps the woods and killing her. But
Speaker 6: she was rescued last minute by the FBI, and her
Speaker 6: case became one of the cases that involved online predators
Speaker 6: for the first time in the US, and there's been
Speaker 6: a lot to learn from that case. Afterwards, you could
Speaker 6: detect patterns of these online predators and then naturally study
Speaker 6: how they think and how they act and how they
Speaker 6: laud these poor girls and boys in in the worst
Speaker 6: case scenario, not only abuse them but also kill them.
Speaker 6: And we all know that online danger should they represents
Speaker 6: one of the greatest dangers to our kids, because kids,
Speaker 6: as it should be in many ways, they naively believe
Speaker 6: that if you say your thirteen year old schoolgirl interested
Speaker 6: in descendance, movies and so on like you are. Then
Speaker 6: you feel that you have appear on the other side
Speaker 6: and not a potential danger to your own life. So
Speaker 6: that's why I decided to start the book with her chapter.
Speaker 6: I wanted to know to shed light on one of
Speaker 6: these new dangers, if I can put it that way.
Speaker 6: But also because to me it has been so important
Speaker 6: that you and I as onlookers bypasses people who have
Speaker 6: never been in this situation can only imagine what it's like.
Speaker 6: I have wanted to give us much information about what
Speaker 6: is actually like to be a victim of an abduction,
Speaker 6: so we can not understand fully, but you know, hopefully
Speaker 6: understand a bit more than our imagination left us with
Speaker 6: in the first place. So in order to understand the
Speaker 6: following cases in the book, I wanted to give an
Speaker 6: idea about what goes through the mind of a child
Speaker 6: when being abducted. How does this child try to survive?
Speaker 6: How does this child try to maintain hope? And you know,
Speaker 6: it's so brutal because all she was left with Alicia
Speaker 6: as she was chained to the flow of a dungeon
Speaker 6: in a basement, that was hoping that her parents would
Speaker 6: come and save her, because you know, that's the point
Speaker 6: you're at when you're a kid. When you're a child,
Speaker 6: you pray that your parents will come and rescue you.
Speaker 6: Grown ups they would hopefully or not hopefully, they will
Speaker 6: probably be praying that law enforcement will come. But you know,
Speaker 6: it even shows so much more to me how cruel
Speaker 6: these crimes against kids are because kids, when they become
Speaker 6: the victims, they haven't even realized the possibility of becoming.
Speaker 7: It's also a good example of how fast this pardon me,
Speaker 7: this evolution has happened in our awareness. You're talking about
Speaker 7: two thousand and two, and parents didn't even you know,
Speaker 7: these kids' parents. Her parents had no idea of meeting
Speaker 7: anyone online in any way just because of the time,
Speaker 7: had no relationship with computers and meeting anyone online. But
Speaker 7: you also talk about afterwards, it's very important this story
Speaker 7: that some people were questioning either her parents' supervision or
Speaker 7: also what she was doing a thirteen year old talking
Speaker 7: to an older man. So people didn't understand grooming at
Speaker 7: that time at all. Now we understand, we've heard the term.
Speaker 7: It's also a very good example of how this person
Speaker 7: groomed this young girl picked the vulnerable person you talked
Speaker 7: about Alicia being maybe not top of her class or
Speaker 7: the most popular girl, and he fed into that. And also,
Speaker 7: as you say, the most important thing is for this
Speaker 7: predator to gain this child's trust.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's true, as you say, today, we know
Speaker 6: the terms, but the interesting thing is actually do we
Speaker 6: as parents know what's behind the term? How many parents
Speaker 6: actually have a solid awareness about what their kids are
Speaker 6: doing when they go on to all these different social
Speaker 6: media that you and I don't even know the names of,
Speaker 6: because there are you know, developing and increasing so rapidly,
Speaker 6: and who is it? How do you actually as a
Speaker 6: parent detect if this person that portrays or presents himself
Speaker 6: nick cleft your own man. And when you meet someone
Speaker 6: face to face in the street, you know if things
Speaker 6: are right or wrong. But as a teenager or doesn't
Speaker 6: even have to be as a teenager. Also when you're twenty,
Speaker 6: when you're thirty, and you're forty, you just don't know
Speaker 6: what's on the other end of the computer in another
Speaker 6: household than yours. And that's what's really scary about online
Speaker 6: danger and grooming. And in my opinion, there's only one
Speaker 6: way to protect our kids against this, and that's by
Speaker 6: talking to them about it. And before we can talk
Speaker 6: about it, we have to educate ourselves, for instance, through
Speaker 6: a book like this or many others, what grooming is about,
Speaker 6: What warning signs should we be looking for? How should
Speaker 6: we guide our kids so they know what to look
Speaker 6: for themselves without you know, naturally scaring them from also
Speaker 6: being a part of life in twenty nineteen, which to
Speaker 6: not only teenagers but by all of us, is an
Speaker 6: online world. But what we do we look for and
Speaker 6: it goes in many cases involving abductions. Not only that
Speaker 6: relates to online predators, but in general, we need to
Speaker 6: empower and educate our kids to be aware of the
Speaker 6: danger and if they come to meet the danger, because
Speaker 6: no one knows who will or when, but if someone
Speaker 6: would meet this danger, we need to empower the kids
Speaker 6: to protect themselves by resisting. And these days, you know,
Speaker 6: the online world, the online universe is represents a huge
Speaker 6: danger to these kids. So that's why I've been so
Speaker 6: focused on also portraying this kind of day in the book.
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Speaker 7: You talk in this book about Alicia's attempt valiant attempt
Speaker 7: to try to regain her life, the Alicia Project. She
Speaker 7: went back to school, Alicia's law passage in eleven states.
Speaker 7: She went and got a psych degree master in psychology.
Speaker 7: But still, you also talk about so many examples in
Speaker 7: this book of PTSD and flashbacks and nightmares just being
Speaker 7: part of the equation to even add to this incredible
Speaker 7: story with Alicia, what happens with her perpetrator, Scott Tyrie.
Speaker 6: Yeah, naturally, he was sentenced, and he didn't do a
Speaker 6: fool sentence. He was actually released in the beginning of
Speaker 6: twenty nineteen, and he was released into the community where
Speaker 6: he abducted Alicia and not far from where her parents
Speaker 6: are living today. And this happened without the knowledge of
Speaker 6: the family nor Affords his bother to warn or tell
Speaker 6: the family that the guy who had actually abducted and
Speaker 6: perhaps who knows what he would have done with her
Speaker 6: if she had been rescued, that he was actually back
Speaker 6: on the streets. And they've been going through the court
Speaker 6: system trying to force Affords Hiss to redo their decision
Speaker 6: of releasing him into a safe house in Pittsburgh. And
Speaker 6: to me, you can always discuss how long a sentence
Speaker 6: a person should have and if he should do a
Speaker 6: full sentence, that is one discussion. Another discussion is actually
Speaker 6: the way we as a society protect the victims afterwards,
Speaker 6: and at least with the courtesy of informing the victims
Speaker 6: that a person of such a brutal crime away from
Speaker 6: the victim and where the victims' relatives still live. So
Speaker 6: they've been struggling in an alicious family and not least
Speaker 6: herself through twenty nineteen. As she says, this month's to
Speaker 6: being back in what used to be a safe haven
Speaker 6: to her but was not. But what is now a
Speaker 6: place that she almost do not dare to go. And
Speaker 6: I can only imagine what he must feel like for
Speaker 6: a victim to suddenly stand face to face with his
Speaker 6: or her perpetrator unexpected in the street. Imagine what that
Speaker 6: would do to both your mind and not least physically
Speaker 6: to your heart.
Speaker 7: Yeah, he has an incredible story. All the things she
Speaker 7: did to protect other people, the inroads and the efforts
Speaker 7: that she made would potentially save all kinds of people's lives.
Speaker 7: And yet she gets a reporter calling her. It's like
Speaker 7: right out of a horror movie. She gets his call,
Speaker 7: as you say, and now he's out. She fights hard
Speaker 7: to get an ankle bracelet technology on him, but it's
Speaker 7: only for six months. She can never go back to
Speaker 7: her hometown because he's there. There's so much wrong about
Speaker 7: that story, and it's ending.
Speaker 6: And one thing that you will see throughout the book,
Speaker 6: not only in a malicious case, but in all of
Speaker 6: the cases, and which has led me to, you know,
Speaker 6: really give that some good hard foughts, because you know,
Speaker 6: as when you're just you know, reading about their cases,
Speaker 6: you don't really understand what they're going through, these victims.
Speaker 6: But looking into it, I would agree with them that
Speaker 6: often we as a society forget about the victims once
Speaker 6: the perparators have been convicted. And there's a cruesome story
Speaker 6: in the book, and every time I think about it,
Speaker 6: you know, it always more or less brings me to tears.
Speaker 6: Certain parts of this story, which is about a five
Speaker 6: year old girl. She was sitting in front of her
Speaker 6: parents' house in the garden playing with a friend when
Speaker 6: a monster drove by and she grabbed her, uh raped
Speaker 6: her and and and and molested her and killed her.
Speaker 6: And she's actually the girl that the introduction you gave
Speaker 6: that you read from was is about. But today the
Speaker 6: perpetrator he's on death row. But as her mom, Samantha's
Speaker 6: mom Aaron told me, one thing that really disturbs her
Speaker 6: and really annoys and makes her angry is that once
Speaker 6: you get the conviction, especially you know with these death
Speaker 6: row cases, and it's like, we put more focus as
Speaker 6: a society on the person on death row, because there's
Speaker 6: something intriguing about what is it like being on death row,
Speaker 6: what kind of people on death row? What do they
Speaker 6: look like on death row? What is it like to
Speaker 6: be asked for your last meal? And so on. It
Speaker 6: almost becomes a movie to us, but not to the victims.
Speaker 6: And Erin once looked on a online site for newspaper
Speaker 6: and she saw this kind of slight show portraying some
Speaker 6: of the death row inmates in California, like all focus
Speaker 6: was suddenly on them. It was on the victims that
Speaker 6: they so brutally had raped, tortured, molested, and murdered. And
Speaker 6: in another case with a young girl, a young student
Speaker 6: from Tennessee, she was stepped to death through her mom.
Speaker 6: It really was painful seeing how you know, the killer,
Speaker 6: if he was gonna go on trial, how he's gonna
Speaker 6: sit there during in his own but that they had
Speaker 6: bowed for him so he could look nice during the
Speaker 6: case while they looked at pictures of her daughter with
Speaker 6: all the step wounds, where she was portrayed through the
Speaker 6: high trial as a bloody victim. Instead of the beautiful girl,
Speaker 6: the beautiful student college student that she had been just
Speaker 6: before she was stabbed. And this means that this mom
Speaker 6: has fought for perpetrators to be presented in court in
Speaker 6: the prison jumpsuits because to her that's who they are.
Speaker 6: They are people on trial and not people in a
Speaker 6: board suit. Nature, you always have to take into consideration
Speaker 6: that you're innocent to proven guilty. But I do understand
Speaker 6: where she comes from and where all the other victims
Speaker 6: they come from, that we have a way of sensationalizing
Speaker 6: the perpetrators rather than remembering the victims for the beauty
Speaker 6: that they posus until it was taken from them.
Speaker 7: Yes, let's use this as an opportunity Stefan to talk
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Speaker 7: You can also find a link in the episode notes. Now, Stephen,
Speaker 7: you offer a particularly horrible story to demonstrate so many
Speaker 7: things that are evident in this book. And you have
Speaker 7: a story of a Marietta yeagers and her daughter, Susie,
Speaker 7: which was seventy years old, seven years old and abducted
Speaker 7: by a serial killer. This is important because we're talking
Speaker 7: about an FBI the very first no profile used for
Speaker 7: a murder. I imagine you can tell us more about
Speaker 7: this distinction. This is in nineteen seventy three, Missouri had
Speaker 7: Headwater State Park in Montana. This is a particularly frightening
Speaker 7: story sounds like a horror story. Tell us about Heidi
Speaker 7: and Susie and this dream vacation that her and her
Speaker 7: parents were on.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was a family from Michigan who decided to
Speaker 6: go on a vacation that they would remember for the
Speaker 6: rest of their lives, and they surely would, but not
Speaker 6: for anything good. They drove off to Montana and they
Speaker 6: went into this national park with scenic beauty and some
Speaker 6: kind of you know, silence that you would only get
Speaker 6: far out in a national park where a family could
Speaker 6: really be together without anything or anyone disturbing, and yet
Speaker 6: someone did. They had just gotten there and the parents
Speaker 6: they were sleeping in a candle van while the kids
Speaker 6: were in a tent. And in the middle of the night,
Speaker 6: Heidi woke up because there was this breeze coming in
Speaker 6: to the tent. And it's surprised that your sister Susie.
Speaker 6: And Susie was at the end of the tent at
Speaker 6: least when they went to sleep, But Haidi realized that
Speaker 6: they had been caught this hole in the tent and
Speaker 6: that was where the breeze came from, and Susie was
Speaker 6: nowhere to be. Seen, so she rushed to the camber van,
Speaker 6: woke up her parents, and Marietta she tried to calm
Speaker 6: her daughter down, because if your daughter comes running at
Speaker 6: three thirty in the morning, you think she has had
Speaker 6: a bad nightmare. So she tried to calm her down,
Speaker 6: and she walked back with her, you know, just a
Speaker 6: few feet to the tent and saying, listen, your sister's
Speaker 6: right here. But she wasn't. And naturally, Marietta she thought
Speaker 6: this is odd, but in the middle of a beautiful,
Speaker 6: quiet national park, So what could actually have happened? At
Speaker 6: least not anything harmful until she found the teddy bear
Speaker 6: of Susie laying in the grass, and immediately she knew
Speaker 6: that something had happened. This was in the beginning of
Speaker 6: the early seventies, no cell phones, no computers, no nothing around.
Speaker 6: So the husband had to drive to a nearby town
Speaker 6: where he informed the local sheriff about what had happened,
Speaker 6: and immediately they launched a search, the biggest search for
Speaker 6: a human being in the history of Montana. And today
Speaker 6: we know there's probably a reason why the search immediately
Speaker 6: became so at such a large scale as it did,
Speaker 6: because Susie was unfortunately not the first child that went
Speaker 6: missing from that area. A few years earlier, boy scout
Speaker 6: that was out camping with other boy Scouts was taking
Speaker 6: as well. There were crimes that were prevented, but there
Speaker 6: were also kids and teenagers that went missing and that
Speaker 6: could not be found. Quite early into the investigation of
Speaker 6: what happened to SUSI, the local law enforcement and FBI
Speaker 6: got a suspect because when they met these agents for
Speaker 6: lunch at the local diner, they would always be sitting
Speaker 6: a young man close to them, listening in on their talks,
Speaker 6: and you would always approach them asking about how the
Speaker 6: investigation was going, what law enforcement was, what the agents
Speaker 6: were thinking about, who might be the perpetrator, and so on.
Speaker 6: Probably not because he felt that risk, but because he
Speaker 6: was curious if he could outsmart law enforcement. And we
Speaker 6: see that again and again and again. We all know
Speaker 6: the story about the guy who actually said the fire
Speaker 6: would be one of the guys in the crowd looking
Speaker 6: as as the fire department would try to extinguish the fire,
Speaker 6: because you know, he would be so proud of his work,
Speaker 6: and the same thing goes with a lot of serial
Speaker 6: killers and perpetraders. We know that throughout history and back
Speaker 6: then they had the hunt that something was wrong with him.
Speaker 6: They just could not prove it. They did not have
Speaker 6: the smoking gun on this case, they did not have
Speaker 6: the body, and they had to let him go this
Speaker 6: by investigating him. One year after Susie was taken through
Speaker 6: the minute she was taking the phone rings back home
Speaker 6: in Michigan, where Marietta and her family lived. Marietta picked
Speaker 6: up the phone at three thirty and at night, and
Speaker 6: on the other end of the line was the abductor.
Speaker 6: He called to seize her. You know what, Marietta, I
Speaker 6: have your daughter. Now. She calls me Dad. She's very
Speaker 6: happy to be with me. Actually right now, she's playing
Speaker 6: in a room with me. A very smart woman, she
Speaker 6: knew that she was not going to be terrorized or
Speaker 6: bullied or past most importantly, tricked in to anything by
Speaker 6: this evil person who just called to taunt her. She
Speaker 6: actually did something that he didn't expect. She said, you
Speaker 6: know what, I forgive you for what you've done. The
Speaker 6: only thing that I need to know is if Susie
Speaker 6: is well, if she's fed, if she's happy, if you're
Speaker 6: taking good care of her, and you know what erin
Speaker 6: and I want to go to bed. I pray for you.
Speaker 6: I pray if you go driving with Susie that you
Speaker 6: must be safe, that no harm will occur. And he
Speaker 6: was so surprised that he would be had the other
Speaker 6: hand when he called to taunt her, but she actually
Speaker 6: overcame him with the kindness and forgiveness, and she kept
Speaker 6: him on the line for more than an hour, long
Speaker 6: enough for the FBI to actually profile him, mainly based
Speaker 6: on that conversation and where he gave so many informations
Speaker 6: that they could lead back to this guy who had
Speaker 6: been so curious about the investigations in the diner in
Speaker 6: the first place. Still nobody no evidence that could put
Speaker 6: him behind boss. So they convinced, or actually did. It
Speaker 6: didn't take much convincing Marietta. She flew out to Montana
Speaker 6: where he had volunteered to meet with Marietta and she said, David,
Speaker 6: as his name was, I know you did it, Please confess,
Speaker 6: Please tell where Susi is, Please tell what you've done
Speaker 6: to her, and so on. Still he wouldn't. He even
Speaker 6: you know, voluntarily signed up for a polygraph and he
Speaker 6: passed without any problems. And later we would find out
Speaker 6: that The reason why he passed this polygraph was because
Speaker 6: he was schizophrenic, so while being questioned and asked, you
Speaker 6: probably didn't know what reality was. But they kept searching,
Speaker 6: and one day they brought him in for questioning. They
Speaker 6: had to let him go. Afterwards, there was an attempt
Speaker 6: of another abduction, and this group of kids that evaded
Speaker 6: the adoption abduction attempt, they could actually give quite a
Speaker 6: good description of the guy who who tried to abduct
Speaker 6: a kid. And I don't know whether to say funny
Speaker 6: enough strangely enough, but the guy was wearing the exact
Speaker 6: same clothes as David had been during an investigation a
Speaker 6: few hours earlier. So we were dealing with a person
Speaker 6: who was suspected by police to have abducted a seven
Speaker 6: year old kid. He refused, he was released, and right
Speaker 6: away he drives out trying to take abduct another kid.
Speaker 6: Imagine how sick such a person is and how you know,
Speaker 6: untouchable he is when it comes to reasoning and admitting
Speaker 6: his crimes. So they put him on constant surveillance, but
Speaker 6: he managed to escape and suddenly Marietta had another phone call,
Speaker 6: this time from a Salt Lake City youth and it
Speaker 6: came from a motel a guy pretended to be someone
Speaker 6: else and David Mainhoff and we never or law enforcement
Speaker 6: never found out. But he put a girl on the
Speaker 6: phone who said, Hi, Mom, this is Susie. Naturally as
Speaker 6: a mom, as a dad, you would be able to
Speaker 6: call right away whether it's your daughter or not. And
Speaker 6: no one knows who that girl on the other uh
Speaker 6: one certain. When he came back to his house in Manhattan, Montana,
Speaker 6: law enforcement knew we need to strike now, no matter what.
Speaker 6: And when they did, they found remains of another girl
Speaker 6: that had been missing in the same area not a
Speaker 6: long time earlier, and it turned out that she had
Speaker 6: actually been a girl dating the perpetrator. And once they
Speaker 6: had these remains that they found in his freezer, you know,
Speaker 6: he had to confess. But the only reason why he
Speaker 6: confessed was because Marietta, the mother of Susie, out of
Speaker 6: her good heart, promised him that she would fight through
Speaker 6: her victim impact for him not to be sentenced to death.
Speaker 6: And once she convinced prosecutors that they were to promise
Speaker 6: not going for the death penalty, he finally confessed to
Speaker 6: having killed at least four kids in in in the
Speaker 6: area and before unfortunately he could confess to more killings,
Speaker 6: he managed to to uh kill himself, to commit suicide
Speaker 6: in in in the jail cell. But that's another gruesome story.
Speaker 6: But from that story, from that case, law enforcement learned
Speaker 6: a lot about how to profile these criminals.
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Speaker 6: And that's why I put this store in the book,
Speaker 6: because you know, it really shows how vulnerable we are
Speaker 6: when the perpetrator is a extremely sick person, when it's
Speaker 6: a schizophrenic and so on. But it also gives us
Speaker 6: a lot of information about who the prototype of an
Speaker 6: abductor could be, just like I have put in the
Speaker 6: book who's the most likely victim of an abduction in America?
Speaker 6: So with the book, I tried to go three hundred
Speaker 6: and sixty degrees around these genius crimes. And the most
Speaker 6: important thing about the book is that I want to
Speaker 6: express through these cases how the victims are often what
Speaker 6: we believe to be the most unlikely victim Because who
Speaker 6: would imagine that a sixteen year old girl stepping off
Speaker 6: a school boss at free in the afternoon in spring
Speaker 6: Texas would never come home to see her parents again
Speaker 6: At free old'clock in the afternoon, stepping off a school bus.
Speaker 6: We're not talking about us portrayed in many movies late
Speaker 6: at night, walking down a dirt road, walking to the
Speaker 6: car in a parking lot at the mall, where there's
Speaker 6: only one count one person walking. No, this was a
Speaker 6: sixteen year old girl who's on her way home from
Speaker 6: high school. Another of the cases in the book is
Speaker 6: about an eighteen year old girl who was actually taken
Speaker 6: on graduation night. And it's just to show all parents
Speaker 6: that this could happen to anyone, and also when it
Speaker 6: seems most unlikely, and the most unlikely time for many people,
Speaker 6: for many parents, and for many of the victims, will
Speaker 6: be broad daylight, when kids are hitting either to school
Speaker 6: or back home from school. That's when a lot of
Speaker 6: these strange abductions they actually happen. It's not late at
Speaker 6: night when it's dark. And my wish by writing this
Speaker 6: book is that people they will parents, that they will
Speaker 6: actually pick up the book in order to protect the kids.
Speaker 6: That's why a huge part of the book is actually
Speaker 6: given guidance on how to protect your kid your children
Speaker 6: against online danger. What do you do if kids singing?
Speaker 6: More concept, who do you seek help? Where do you
Speaker 6: seek help? What do you do if your child is gone?
Speaker 6: Where can you find support? What do you do if
Speaker 6: you can't find your kid in your own house? Do
Speaker 6: you go through the laundry? Do you call law for enforcement?
Speaker 6: What do you tell and so on? I try to
Speaker 6: give guidance because you know, these abductions, as I said,
Speaker 6: can happen to anyone at any time, and therefore we
Speaker 6: need to be prepared for the worst case scenario. And
Speaker 6: an important part of being prepared for the worst case
Speaker 6: scenario is educating our kids about what to do if
Speaker 6: they meet a man passing by in a car saying
Speaker 6: have you or asking have you seen my little dog?
Speaker 6: Or could you actually tell me how to get to
Speaker 6: the mall? Have you seen my kid? Would you please
Speaker 6: come into my car and help look them? Because you know,
Speaker 6: no adult with a good heart and with the mind
Speaker 6: and forcing the right place would ever ask a kid
Speaker 6: to step into a car. We all right know as
Speaker 6: an adult you don't do that. You might be needing help,
Speaker 6: but then you go and you ask another adult. So
Speaker 6: if you, as a kid, experienced a guy stopping in
Speaker 6: his car or a woman stopping in her car next
Speaker 6: to you, what do you do well? You never approach
Speaker 6: the car if the person comes out and grabs you.
Speaker 6: We normally teach our kids not to scream, not to
Speaker 6: hit another person, but in these types of cases, the
Speaker 6: most important thing is actually if he grabs her. If
Speaker 6: he grabs you or she grabs you, is to scream,
Speaker 6: is to kick, is to fight for your life. That
Speaker 6: is how these auction cases or attended abductions are normally evaded.
Speaker 6: But we need to teach our kids that it is
Speaker 6: actually okay to defend yourself by kicking, by hitting when
Speaker 6: it comes to this type of crimes. And not only that,
Speaker 6: how do you as a kid actually react physically, How
Speaker 6: do you hit, how do you kick? And so on?
Speaker 6: And I think that it's okay that we teach our
Speaker 6: kids how to protect themselves when it comes to these
Speaker 6: awful crimes, because that's what's actually the difference between life
Speaker 6: or death in many of these cases. Thank god, these
Speaker 6: stranger abductions, they are am the least likely to happen normally.
Speaker 6: Those are the ones that we hear about. Right now,
Speaker 6: we're missing some really young kids at the age of
Speaker 6: three and five in America that has been taken from
Speaker 6: a birthday party and a playground, and right now as
Speaker 6: we speak, no one knows what has happened to them,
Speaker 6: only that they have been taken by strangers, and we
Speaker 6: can only hope and pray that they will come back alive.
Speaker 6: But normally, in ninety nine percent of all cases abductor kids,
Speaker 6: they do return home. The ones that are most unlikely
Speaker 6: to return home are the ones grabbed by strangers, and
Speaker 6: that's why they make media headlines. And naturally we need to,
Speaker 6: you know, put awareness on this, but we all need
Speaker 6: to put attention and awareness on family abduction cases. As
Speaker 6: another fact, hundreds of thousands of American kids are every
Speaker 6: year becoming the victims of abduction, kids of family abductions.
Speaker 6: And then many people they ask, how bad can that
Speaker 6: actually be? Still there with a dad or there with
Speaker 6: a mom, But that is brutal as well, not going
Speaker 6: too fine to these types of cases. But you know,
Speaker 6: if a mom, and normally it's most likely that it's
Speaker 6: actually a woman, that's the perpetrate of these cases, in
Speaker 6: almost sixty percent of all these family abduction cases. But
Speaker 6: if you go as a there was a reason in
Speaker 6: the first place why you didn't get custody, it might
Speaker 6: be because you're not able to take care of the kid,
Speaker 6: if you're suffering from some kind of abuse, if you've
Speaker 6: been abusive to the kids, or if you're actually before
Speaker 6: committing the abduction, harming your child in another way. So
Speaker 6: for to say, this child is going to go and
Speaker 6: stay with the father or with the mother. So in
Speaker 6: all of a sudden, the purple the parent that is
Speaker 6: not supposed to have the kid has the kid. And
Speaker 6: if you have a kid that you're not supposed to, well,
Speaker 6: how you're going to send them to school, how you
Speaker 6: actually make sure that they're provided with the medical care
Speaker 6: that they deserve. On the other hand, you have to
Speaker 6: hide your kids. It means that some of these kids
Speaker 6: they never see daylight. They're only being taken outside at
Speaker 6: night night where it's most more unlikely that they will
Speaker 6: be discovered. There are examples of kids becoming victims of
Speaker 6: family abductions that are actually portrayed as a girl, though
Speaker 6: they were born and raised in the first place as
Speaker 6: a boy. They try to change the gender of the
Speaker 6: kid in order to hide it from authorities. They don't
Speaker 6: get medical, social care, they don't go to schools, and
Speaker 6: even in many cases, these kids are killed in high
Speaker 6: speed car chases, and so an abduction case that involves
Speaker 6: a family member is serious business and seriously harmful to
Speaker 6: the child as well. And if you take off with
Speaker 6: your child, how you're actually going to go to work,
Speaker 6: how you're actually going to maintain a life, whether the
Speaker 6: child does not live up grow up in poverty. So
Speaker 6: there are so many harmful side effects to the child
Speaker 6: also when it comes to family abductions, So I want
Speaker 6: to shed light on that as well. And then also
Speaker 6: as we started out talking about, I really want to
Speaker 6: shed light on a huge problem that we're facing all
Speaker 6: around the world today, that is human trafficking. And when
Speaker 6: we talk about human trafficking, we're not talking about that
Speaker 6: is another side of human trafficking, but it doesn't involve
Speaker 6: a immigrant, illegal immigrant being trafficked into America. Human trafficking
Speaker 6: in this aspect is extortion of the child, where it's
Speaker 6: either forced into you know, manual labor that no one
Speaker 6: wished to do, but more in one and more cases
Speaker 6: also where these poor kids and young adults and naturally
Speaker 6: also grown ups are forced into prostitution. There's a case
Speaker 6: that there are two cases in my book about human trafficking.
Speaker 6: One of them is about a twenty one year old
Speaker 6: girl from Hannibal, Missouri. She had a six month old
Speaker 6: child back home and this was the first night after
Speaker 6: giving birth that she was actually going to go out
Speaker 6: and have a few drinks with their friends, and on
Speaker 6: her way home, something happened. The only thing we know
Speaker 6: is that in November this year, she's been gone for
Speaker 6: ten years. There has been numerous reports, and law enforcement
Speaker 6: also believes that she has been forced into a prostitution
Speaker 6: now in Peoria in Illinois. So one thing that I
Speaker 6: would like to explain briefly to people, because many people
Speaker 6: are unaware to how these things they actually happen and
Speaker 6: why it is so difficult for the victims to come
Speaker 6: back home once they have been abducted. The first thing
Speaker 6: that the human traffickers would do to a abducted child,
Speaker 6: an abducted adult, and so on would be getting them
Speaker 6: addicted to drugs. They would feed them severely, They would
Speaker 6: rape them again and again and again, because then they
Speaker 6: destroy their view of ki the you, your addiction to drugs,
Speaker 6: to heroin, so on, would be stronger than your desire
Speaker 6: to be back home with your family. I think we
Speaker 6: can all easily imagine how Heroin, as an example, can
Speaker 6: overpower anything within you. But if you're also beaten daily,
Speaker 6: if you're tortured, and if you're rate, you might start thinking,
Speaker 6: as a victim, that this is the life I am
Speaker 6: meant to have? And how would I ever dare to
Speaker 6: run away? Though I walk the streets on my own
Speaker 6: trying to get clients to provide me with the money
Speaker 6: that I have to give back to my human traffickers
Speaker 6: on my pimp, how can I be so afraid of
Speaker 6: them that I home runoff?
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Speaker 6: Naturally, these human traffickers, they also threatened killing a victim's children,
Speaker 6: a victim's mom, a victim's father, so they have felt
Speaker 6: on their own body in more than one way, the
Speaker 6: power that these evil human creatures possess, and they have
Speaker 6: definitely realized that these evil human creatures are not afraid
Speaker 6: of putting their power and evilness on the victim. So
Speaker 6: you start to think, I have to protect not only
Speaker 6: myself but my family in a worst case scenario, my
Speaker 6: kids against this human trafficker by obeying the orders that
Speaker 6: forgive me. And you know, there's not one single state
Speaker 6: in America where child sex trafficking has not been reported.
Speaker 6: There's not one single country in the world where human
Speaker 6: trafficking has not been reported. And let's go back to
Speaker 6: where we started. What happened after I was taken in
Speaker 6: Belgrad was naturally I reported the incident to the local
Speaker 6: law enforcement. I contacted the Danish embassy in Belgrade and
Speaker 6: they said, we need to get you out of here
Speaker 6: right away. But I was young, I was stupid looking back,
Speaker 6: and also eager on getting my journalistic career going by
Speaker 6: actually uncovering something that many people at that time did
Speaker 6: not know anything about in Europe or probably around the world,
Speaker 6: this new phenomenon, this new crime called human trafficking. So
Speaker 6: I went on to Bosnia Herzegovina and I checked into
Speaker 6: a disgusting hostel in Sarajevo. And in this hostel I
Speaker 6: met both victims of human trafficking and the human traffickers.
Speaker 6: And I remember how I said with this group of
Speaker 6: young men from mainly a, Syria and Turkey waiting to
Speaker 6: being trafficked into Europe in order to make more money
Speaker 6: they could send home to their families living in policy.
Speaker 6: I remember that, you know, they were not frilled with life,
Speaker 6: but they would sing, they would tell jokes. Eventually they
Speaker 6: would give a smile till the second human traffickers showed up,
Speaker 6: and you could see which have never seen in the
Speaker 6: same way before or ever since, how scared they were
Speaker 6: of other people. They knew that their lives were totally
Speaker 6: in the hands of the human traffickers. And if the
Speaker 6: human traffickers decided to take them out back, putting a
Speaker 6: bullet to the head, they would and they would not
Speaker 6: bling one single time before doing so. And these illegal
Speaker 6: immigrants who would be missing them, It's not like, you know,
Speaker 6: it was the son living down the street that everyone
Speaker 6: would go looking for, because in the first place, no
Speaker 6: one was supposed to know that he was in that hostel.
Speaker 6: So I've seen how scared these victims are of the
Speaker 6: human traffickers. So I can easily understand a sixteen year
Speaker 6: old or twenty one year old young American girl who
Speaker 6: was on her way home from high school would be
Speaker 6: of these human traffickers. And then just you know, you
Speaker 6: started out also by mentioning, you know, parts of them.
Speaker 6: Of the statistic. My book is full of statistics. I
Speaker 6: tried to put in the statistic in a good way
Speaker 6: because you know, I want people to not understand the
Speaker 6: statistics of these different kinds of abduction cases. I want
Speaker 6: to portray the problem by giving it a human face
Speaker 6: through you know, these stories. But one thing that I
Speaker 6: have to give you a bit of statistic about is
Speaker 6: actually this human trafficking, because it is believed that today
Speaker 6: human trafficking is the type of crime that is most
Speaker 6: beneficial through criminal organizations because you see, you can only
Speaker 6: sell drugs once, and you can only sell or at
Speaker 6: least often a gone once, whereas with a human being,
Speaker 6: you can sell that person again and again and again.
Speaker 6: And today it's estimated that every year human traffickers they
Speaker 6: earned profits of roughly one hundred and fifty billion dollars
Speaker 6: a year worldwide from human trafficking. Just put that into perspective.
Speaker 6: In twenty sixteen, Microsoft, Wells, Fargo, Sangsung, Samsung, JP, Morgan,
Speaker 6: and Apple that they had an annual net profit of
Speaker 6: one hundred and thirty six billion dollars combined. We all
Speaker 6: know these huge companies that are influential all over the world,
Speaker 6: but combined their annual net profit in twenty and sixteen
Speaker 6: was way lower, way lower than it was estimated. The
Speaker 6: earnings human traffickers taken from this new kind of crime.
Speaker 6: And as you know, I've walked in concerning another book
Speaker 6: that I put out in Denmark in twenty and fifteen,
Speaker 6: I walked into Brothels on Lexington Avenue, on Madison Avenue
Speaker 6: in New York. I walked into Brothels in La I
Speaker 6: walked into Brothels in South Beach, Miami, and the girls
Speaker 6: working there, mainly naturally Asian girls, they were being human
Speaker 6: trafficked as well. Many of them. They had dreamed of
Speaker 6: coming to America as the legal immigrants working there, shipping
Speaker 6: money back home to the families who often lived in
Speaker 6: poverty in mainly China, but the way of paying off
Speaker 6: a debt, they didn't know that they actually had was
Speaker 6: by working at these massage parlors. So you know, who
Speaker 6: doesn't know Lexington Avenue, Park Avenue in New York, But
Speaker 6: how many actually knows what's going on in some of
Speaker 6: these parlors. And it's not only in America, it's all
Speaker 6: over the world. You'll find these people being trafficked. And
Speaker 6: it's so strange or not strange. It's so difficult for
Speaker 6: law enforcement actually to deal with these cases. First and foremost,
Speaker 6: because the victims often try to hide their own destiny,
Speaker 6: and therefore they're so scared of the human traffickers that
Speaker 6: they don't tell the truth about what is the crimes
Speaker 6: being committed to them. And secondly, this is also a
Speaker 6: new kind of crime that I believe, though law enforcement
Speaker 6: will never admit it, but that law enforcement is actually
Speaker 6: finding their way around dealing with time it evolves. It
Speaker 6: has changed from being illegal immigrants forced in to labor
Speaker 6: into sex trafficking and so on, to now being American boys,
Speaker 6: American girls being taken on their way home from school.
Speaker 6: And as I said at one point, I really wish
Speaker 6: that if you care about your child, you pick up
Speaker 6: this book and you educate yourself about the danger, not
Speaker 6: that you should live in fear, but you actually should
Speaker 6: face reality and the new types of crimes that represent
Speaker 6: the danger to our kids today, because that's the only
Speaker 6: way we can protect our kids. The worst thing we
Speaker 6: can do is close our eyes. And unfortunately the book
Speaker 6: and and and and and I'm very grateful form it
Speaker 6: has had really great reviews so far, but I have
Speaker 6: also experienced reviewers writing me back saying thank you so
Speaker 6: much for sending the book. This is an important topic,
Speaker 6: and I wish that I could review your book, but
Speaker 6: I don't think that I'll be able to get through it.
Speaker 6: And as you'll see really read in many of the
Speaker 6: reviews that's online on good Reads and on Amazon. On
Speaker 6: the book's page on Amazon Amazon, you read the review
Speaker 6: saying it was so difficult getting through this book because
Speaker 6: you know, reality is much more cruel than I expected
Speaker 6: it to be, and that it's even you know, at
Speaker 6: times portrayed in movies. But I'm glad that I read
Speaker 6: the book and reviewed it, and it should be mandatory
Speaker 6: reading for all parents caring about the kids. And I
Speaker 6: accept that it is, you know, so difficult, not least
Speaker 6: to parents reading about reality of the danger that you
Speaker 6: know that our kids are faced with today in the
Speaker 6: worst case scenario. But what is even more or the
Speaker 6: worst thing that we can do to our kids is
Speaker 6: actually closing our eyes and denying it. No matter how
Speaker 6: tough it is getting through these cases.
Speaker 7: You talk about how hard it is for people to
Speaker 7: understand that these kids don't come from broken families, unhappy families,
Speaker 7: unhappy backgrounds. That's why you stress, and Alicia stresses that
Speaker 7: it could happen to anyone. It's not just a cliche.
Speaker 7: These are These people are predators that are experienced, and
Speaker 7: in the one case that we talked about, the predator
Speaker 7: met this victim through another predator online. So this evil
Speaker 7: is these people are friends and are willing to cooperate
Speaker 7: with each other, and they understand why the child is
Speaker 7: vulnerable and what to do with that vulnerability, and they
Speaker 7: have enough time to groom them. So it's incredibly important
Speaker 7: for people to find out through these very illustrative and
Speaker 7: demonstrative stories how it can happen so easily to a
Speaker 7: great family. On New Year's Eve and the kid slips out,
Speaker 7: family didn't even know she slipped out of the house.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because she said, what should she tell? After all,
Speaker 6: she's only going to be away for a minute. She's
Speaker 6: only going to walk outside to front door seeing hi
Speaker 6: to what she expected to be another kid. But when
Speaker 6: she got to the end of the driveway and walked
Speaker 6: a bit further down the street, she realized that the
Speaker 6: person calling the name Alia was not a thirteen year
Speaker 6: old boy or thirteen year old girl. It was a
Speaker 6: thirty eight year old predator. And as she said that
Speaker 6: these sick persons, they passed these kids around online to
Speaker 6: each other as trophies, and they brag about it. And
Speaker 6: that was also why he in the first place, the
Speaker 6: abductor of Elisha, I think because he wanted to brag
Speaker 6: about his trophy, that what he had said that he
Speaker 6: would be doing getting you know, his teenage slave was
Speaker 6: no longer something that the other ones online might be
Speaker 6: downing with capable of. Now he had his trophy to prove.
Speaker 6: And you know, naturally, I'm not saying by any means
Speaker 6: that parents they should sit back now after listening to
Speaker 6: the show here or after reading the book living in
Speaker 6: fear of the kids being taken. You know, it's a
Speaker 6: human thing that we need and should believe in the
Speaker 6: best in each other. And you know, wake up in
Speaker 6: the morning and believe that it's going to be a
Speaker 6: beautiful day. And it remains a beautiful day when we
Speaker 6: go to bed, but it's more likely to be if
Speaker 6: we prepare ourselves for the worst as good as we
Speaker 6: now can, and not only ourselves as parents, but you know,
Speaker 6: also prepare our children for it without scaring them naturally
Speaker 6: as well. But it is a fact of life that
Speaker 6: cruelty exists, and it could be committed against anyone. So
Speaker 6: you know, let's be aware of that fact and by
Speaker 6: our knowledge and awareness, be more likely to evade it
Speaker 6: or you know, not becoming victims of it. And again
Speaker 6: what I've learned, because you know, with my experience, I
Speaker 6: have a stake in this matter. And that's also why
Speaker 6: probably I'm personally i would say offended or I'm at
Speaker 6: least touched by when reviewers say that it's too hard
Speaker 6: for them to review the book. To some extent, I
Speaker 6: accept that. But there's a necessity for a book like this,
Speaker 6: and other books like this, other documentaries like this, there's
Speaker 6: a necessity for show like your stand putting focus on
Speaker 6: this right now, this minute. But I can't help. Also,
Speaker 6: you know, I sent the book to one of the
Speaker 6: largest newspapers in America, and I spoke to the book
Speaker 6: editor there. I've spoken to to this editor previously on
Speaker 6: other occasions, and I said, you know, I'm putting out
Speaker 6: this book. I would really hope on behalf of the kids,
Speaker 6: not least the kids that are still missing and that
Speaker 6: are portrayed in the book, that you would put focus
Speaker 6: on this book, write a few lines about it, letting
Speaker 6: your hundreds of thousands of readers know about that this
Speaker 6: book exists and what it can actually bring them in
Speaker 6: order to protect the kids. And she said, you know,
Speaker 6: we don't portray the kind of books only if you
Speaker 6: can reveal in one of the cases that there's something new,
Speaker 6: like law enforcement didn't do the job right, or if
Speaker 6: you can reveal where the remains of one of the
Speaker 6: kids missing is actually ad or if someone would and
Speaker 6: you know, and I'm just like, it really went to
Speaker 6: my heart, because you know, I think that if that
Speaker 6: is how media sees this problem, then it's extremely unfair
Speaker 6: to children in general, and not least to the kids
Speaker 6: that are still missing. And as I mentioned a bit earlier,
Speaker 6: we have right now kids three five years old and
Speaker 6: nobody knows where they are. We just know that a
Speaker 6: girl was taking from a park in New Jersey a
Speaker 6: month ago roughly, and this little girl no one has
Speaker 6: heard from her since. Sorry Dan, sorry for you know,
Speaker 6: putting this on you. But if you'd take a minute
Speaker 6: to dwell on this together with your listeners, can you
Speaker 6: imagine where that girl might be right now? Can you
Speaker 6: imagine what this five year old girl might be going
Speaker 6: through right now, hopefully, and let's pray that she's still
Speaker 6: alive at another playground somewhere, you know, And this is
Speaker 6: reality of life. And in my opinion, there's nothing you know,
Speaker 6: more horrible than crime is being committed then against children,
Speaker 6: you know, at least in many ways as an old adult,
Speaker 6: we shouldn't, you know, have been drinking that much in
Speaker 6: the bar. We should have gone home, or we should
Speaker 6: have this, or we should have that, or we would
Speaker 6: you know, have had our cell phones have been able
Speaker 6: to call, we would have perhaps had the love of
Speaker 6: getting a punish in these kids, they don't have a
Speaker 6: cell phone. Often they don't have the physical capability of reacting.
Speaker 6: And you know what, the worst thing, Peraps says, they
Speaker 6: don't even know that this cruelty exists. So, in my opinion,
Speaker 6: That's why there's nothing more important than protecting our kids.
Speaker 6: Because our kids, they didn't ask for it. When I
Speaker 6: wan't to Belgrade in Serbia and I stuck my nose
Speaker 6: in the business of human traffickers some way or another,
Speaker 6: I kind of asked for it. At least I knew
Speaker 6: that there was a possibility of this happening, but I
Speaker 6: believed in the greater good of doing so. But the
Speaker 6: girls that I had been investigating as a journalist a
Speaker 6: year before, the ten year old girl who was saying
Speaker 6: and the fifteen year old girl, they had no stake
Speaker 6: in the fate that they suffered. So that is why
Speaker 6: I'm gonna say we can close our eyes. The only
Speaker 6: way of helping our kids, keeping them safe and protecting
Speaker 6: them is accepting on their behalf that this cruelty exists
Speaker 6: and that we need to shoulder them from it.
Speaker 7: Yes, I want to applaud you for your heroic efforts
Speaker 7: in this and congratulations on this. I hate to say
Speaker 7: retaining book, but they captivating, intriguing, fascinating book. Moms of
Speaker 7: the Missing, living the nightmare. It certainly does capture that
Speaker 7: stepan forth. People that would want to buy this book
Speaker 7: take a look more at this case, the cases that
Speaker 7: the ten cases that you profile in this book. Is
Speaker 7: our website Facebook page that they might refer to.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they can find me both on Facebook and my
Speaker 6: website which is www dot s d E F F
Speaker 6: E n hou dot com. And if they go to
Speaker 6: Amazon and look up the book, they can actually read
Speaker 6: I believe it's the first ten or twenty pages of
Speaker 6: the book for free, so they get a feeling of
Speaker 6: the book, and they can read the prolog that lays
Speaker 6: out the content and why I've written the book, and
Speaker 6: I would be grateful if they would, and very creating.
Speaker 6: And I'm gonna say in the book, I portray cases
Speaker 6: where the kids have been missing for years and years
Speaker 6: and years and they haven't been found yet. So let's
Speaker 6: this still alive. But read this book, read this case
Speaker 6: because perhaps you actually realize that it's you that knows
Speaker 6: something that can bring them back home.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, Stephen. You have a fantastic evening.
Speaker 7: It's been the same leasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you, Thank you, Dan, thank you for putting that
Speaker 6: on this good night, good night,