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Start having the 23 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:57.880 most fun ever at Chumbuck Casino dot com. 24 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:00.240 Noe B just necessary Dvoid Over every Boy Lost an 25 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.200 aiding clay. 26 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:03.880 Blot Talk Radian. 27 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:16.359 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 28 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:19.480 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:26.840 written about them, Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 30 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:30.519 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:35.159 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 32 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:51.280 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good evening, Oh my god, 33 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:54.640 we found a dead body. The man's voice calling from 34 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:59.319 a mountain trail in Cleveland National Forest was frantic. Please hurry, 35 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.040 it's so scared. It's a little kid. When police arrived, 36 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.560 they were met by a horrific sight. The girl was 37 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:08.680 naked and had been positioned in such a way that 38 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.080 detectives believes the murderer had seen his kill as some 39 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.199 kind of a trophy, as if he were showing off 40 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:18.840 his work. The little kid was Samantha Runyon, a five 41 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:20.879 year old girl who had been abducted while playing in 42 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:25.000 her parents' garden the day before. Samantha is just one 43 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:28.800 of too many American kids who disappear. Almost half a 44 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:32.840 million children are reported missing every year, and all across America, 45 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:35.840 parents are searching for their missing children, or, if the 46 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:39.120 worst case scenarios come to pass, the person who killed them. 47 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:46.360 Mums of the Missing investigates ten abduction cases through personal 48 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:49.960 and heartbreaking interviews with the victims. It describes how parents 49 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:53.479 maintain their hopes of one day finding their children, some 50 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:57.080 of whom were taken by a stranger, a family member, 51 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:01.560 or human traffickers, and turs tell what it's like to 52 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:06.759 be held captive. Mums of the Missing explores the principal 53 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:11.680 types of adductions and not of least importance, who's most 54 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:16.560 likely to become a victim of the epidemic of missing children. Finally, 55 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:21.159 the book describes how abductions can be prevented. The book 56 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:23.719 that we're featuring this evening is Mums of the Missing, 57 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:28.360 Living the Nightmare with my special guest journalist and author 58 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:32.039 Stefan Howe. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 59 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:33.240 much for greenness interview. 60 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:34.520 Stefan. 61 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:38.439 Now, thank you very much, Stan, thank you for having 62 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:38.759 me on. 63 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:41.960 Thank you very much for thank you for coming back 64 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:45.840 once again. It's good to have you back. Let's talk 65 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:51.280 about right away, your experience that led to this book, 66 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:57.360 your personal experience with human traffickers and tell us the 67 00:03:57.439 --> 00:03:58.520 reason for this book. 68 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:04.800 Overall, the book has been underway for almost twenty years. 69 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:10.080 When I started out as a journalist in two thousand 70 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:14.360 and one, when I educated from the National School of 71 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:21.160 Journalism in Denmark, I went to the capital of Serbia, Belgrade, 72 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:27.399 to investigate human trafficking. It was right after the Civil 73 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:36.639 War and the Balkans was a mecca for criminals. In general, 74 00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:42.639 there was no law and order and quickly human traffickers 75 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.720 took advantage of the situation. And nobody knew much about 76 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.959 human trafficking back then. Though it's you know, though it's 77 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:56.839 only twenty years has passed, but twenty years ago it 78 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:02.560 was something quite new, and there were these small blobs, 79 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:08.120 these you know, unconfirmed stories, even within the European Union 80 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:13.399 as an organization saying we believe that thousands and thousands 81 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:19.959 of illegal immigrants are about to be trafficked into Europe 82 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:26.040 from the Middle East, but also from a country like China. 83 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:32.959 And I read a report that was authored by the 84 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.759 European Union and it clearly stated that this is what 85 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:40.399 we believe, not necessarily that this is what we know. 86 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.680 So I decided to go to Serbia to actually take 87 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:49.920 a look with my own eyes, and it was very 88 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:56.680 clear that in a certain part of Belgrade there was 89 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:04.519 thousands of China, these illegal immigrants, waiting to be passed 90 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:10.240 on further into Europe. And I went to a certain 91 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:15.160 mall where they had these small Chinese shops. All the 92 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.519 I wouldn't say shop owners, that would be incorrect, but 93 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:28.000 all the people worked. And I went there to investigate 94 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.639 and to interview some of them, and it was very 95 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:34.720 obvious that they were just waiting to be passed on. 96 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:39.279 And as I was walking around in the mall around noon, 97 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:44.439 the mall was crowded with people. In all of a sudden, 98 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:49.959 I realized within a split second that a man came 99 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:55.120 from behind and he got hold of me in like 100 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:59.360 a chocold, and he pressed a gun against the timber 101 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.120 of my head and forced me out of the mall. 102 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:08.360 There were plenty of witnesses there, and no one did 103 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:12.600 anything as he took me away from from the mall 104 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:18.040 and down a dirt road. In this area that was 105 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:21.519 like just being rebuilt after the Civil War and so on, 106 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.000 it seemed very deserted, despite the fact that there were 107 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:29.079 thousands of people in the area waiting to be trafficked, 108 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:34.040 and he took me down the road and when we 109 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:39.319 finally got to some workshaps he stopped and in a 110 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:44.800 very direct way, he had commanded that I would stop 111 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:50.240 my inquiries or these human traffickers, they would stop them 112 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:51.959 for me, so to speak, you know, not to be 113 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.199 It couldn't be misunderstood in any way. If I was 114 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:58.120 not leaving, they were going to put a bullet to 115 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:02.000 my head. At least that was what the message she 116 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:08.959 was trying to convey, and it really did so to 117 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.519 speak a number of me on me having this experience 118 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:19.720 right away, as he grabbed hold of me and pressed 119 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:24.319 his gun against my head, I had this debt fear 120 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:29.720 and I felt so extremely alone. I've never felt so 121 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:34.840 lone in my life before and never after. But I 122 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:38.120 just needed someone there next to me. It could have 123 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:44.480 been anyone. I just needed someone there. And it was 124 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:48.799 because I realized that if I was going to live 125 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:55.360 five minutes from that moment, it only depended on the 126 00:08:55.639 --> 00:09:00.879 kindness or willingness of this human trafficker. And it was 127 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:07.919 in many ways extremely scaring realizing how you can lose 128 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:12.799 control over your own life within seconds if there's just 129 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:16.600 a guy or just a person in front of you 130 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:23.639 with a gun, then in most situations you would lose 131 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:31.240 your ability to defend yourself, and that feeling of being alone, 132 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.840 and this did fear. It stuck with me many many 133 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:43.360 years afterwards. But when that was also the creation of 134 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.440 the reason why I decided to write this book. It 135 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:49.879 had something to do with the fact that previous to 136 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:55.879 my experience in Belgrade, I had covered two abduction cases 137 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:01.159 in Demark for a daily newspaper. One of the cases 138 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.000 was a ten year old girl who was taken in 139 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:09.120 broad daylight from a beach. Her mom went swimming, and 140 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.440 while she was swimming, you know, not far away from 141 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:14.879 her daughter and where she could probably even keep an 142 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:18.440 eye on her daughter, and she let down guards for 143 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:21.879 probably just you know, half a minute, and this half 144 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:26.919 minute was enough for a guide to grab hold of 145 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:30.080 the ten year old daughter and take off with her. 146 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:36.600 He took her to a wood where he raped this 147 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:42.679 poor girl and he choked her afford. His law enforcement 148 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:46.399 believed that the only reason why he let her be, 149 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:51.679 why he left her in the woods afterwards, was because 150 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:56.480 he probably thought that she was already dead. And I 151 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:01.200 also investigated and wrote about another. It was a fifteen 152 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:06.279 year old girl who had been taken from the streets 153 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.960 as well, and she had been held hostage for a 154 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:16.600 few days in a rural area, and for some reason, 155 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:21.080 the guy who grabbed her, he let her go and 156 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:27.000 it led to his Both we the mean of the crime. 157 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:33.080 I stood in the wood looking at the place this 158 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:37.720 girl was raped and choked. I went to the house 159 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:41.039 where this fifteen year old girl had been held captive, 160 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:47.039 and I looked inside the windows of where she had 161 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:54.480 been the prisoner of evil. And I remember, standing at 162 00:11:54.639 --> 00:12:00.600 both sides, I had this you know, chilling feeling, or 163 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:04.759 this scary feeling actually down my spine because it becomes 164 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:09.879 so realistic and something that you would normally only read 165 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:14.279 about in fiction books or in true crime books or 166 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:17.480 watching the movie. And all of a sudden, it became 167 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:24.600 so real to me that even kids can become victims 168 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:29.279 of something that even the biggest, baddest grown men would 169 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:32.519 fear becoming victims of. And as I had my own 170 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:38.720 experience in Belgrade, feeling alone, I could not help back then, 171 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.279 but also afterwards, for years and years and years to 172 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:50.320 come help, thinking about how alone these two poor girls 173 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:56.759 must have felt the moment that a stranger came and 174 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.960 took them away from their parents and so on, and 175 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:08.360 unfortunately it happens to way too many kids, not only 176 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:13.679 in the States but around the world. And the thoughts 177 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:18.200 that I had had about this loneliness they must all feel, 178 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:23.919 and how scared they might have to be. I had 179 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:27.679 to look into that by talking to some of the 180 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:33.720 people who have actually experienced being abducted, but also talking 181 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.840 to the left behinds, to the parents, to the relatives 182 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:40.360 and so on. And that was the reason why I 183 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:42.159 decided to write Moments of the Missing. 184 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:48.559 You have divided the book into chapters describing the different 185 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.519 types of child abductions and how they happen, who the 186 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.399 victims and abductors are, and the magnitude of the problem. 187 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:01.679 And you have different categories stranger abductions and trafficking abductions, 188 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:08.000 family abductions, infant abductions, and long term abductions. And you 189 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.879 also describe the danger that sex offenders pose to children. 190 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.399 Let's get to a case that demonstrates so many of 191 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:19.919 the things that you have seen in so many cases, 192 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:25.559 but it's so profoundly demonstrates this. There's a girl named 193 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:33.399 Alicia and if I mispronounced Kozakowitch from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, doctor 194 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.200 January first, two thousand and two, and her mother is 195 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:41.399 named Mary. Tell us about Alicia because you say that 196 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:46.759 miracles rarely ever happen, but in this book you provide 197 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.960 a couple of those. Let's tell our audience about Alicia. 198 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.080 One of the reasons or the mean reason why decided 199 00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:00.840 students of you Alicia and write about hercule is also 200 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:05.639 because she was a victim of a phenomenon that is, 201 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:09.759 you know, just as new as human trafficking, and that 202 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:14.840 is online predators. She was a thirteen year old girl 203 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:21.240 who in the beginning of the New Millennium, she started 204 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:26.519 chatting like many kids that did back then, and they 205 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:32.240 went into these chat force on the internet that was 206 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:38.519 familiar to them and so unfamiliar to their parents, meaning 207 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:46.039 that their parents had no possibilities of actually protecting their 208 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:53.440 kids about the dangers that the internet represented to kids 209 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.879 back then. And now today we know a bit more 210 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.320 about online danger than we did just back in two 211 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:05.799 thousand and one when she started chatting and was taken 212 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:11.799 by a online predator, but she believed actually that the 213 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:17.360 person on the other side of the computer was a 214 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:24.440 thirteen year old girl just like herself, and this person 215 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:34.080 other young adults and kids on the internet, and you know, 216 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:38.840 she talked about what school life was like, they exchanged 217 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:42.919 school photos, they talked about fashion and so on, you know, 218 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.159 like thirteen year olds do. And they even talked about 219 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:50.279 what was happening with the entering puberty and all the 220 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:57.960 curious curiosity that comes with that. But in fact, she 221 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:03.399 was not chatting with a teenager. She realized that when 222 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.119 this person she'd been chatting with for a long time 223 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.039 invited her out of her parents' house just to come 224 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.319 out for a brief hello, just so they could meet 225 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:18.759 face to face after having been after been chatting online 226 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:23.079 for months, it turned out to be a thirty eight 227 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:28.240 year old man who grabbed her foster in her car 228 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:33.319 in his car and took off from Pennsylvania and drove 229 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:40.880 off to Virginia, where she was chained in a basement. 230 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:48.119 She was raped, she was tortured, and partner my friend. 231 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:55.480 But this sick animal, he was so keen on his 232 00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:01.599 new trophy that he had taken in Pittsburgh that he 233 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:06.359 had to brag about it. So while raping her, he 234 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:13.839 actually live streamed it to a forum of other sick 235 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:19.000 individuals who got off on watching child horn and so on. 236 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:28.240 And one of these viewers, a man in Florida. He 237 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:33.599 actually afterwards became so nervous about what he had seen, 238 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:37.920 perhaps not with the hum being done to the kid, 239 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:41.440 but with the fact that if he'd been a viewer, 240 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:44.920 if he'd been a witness, he might be an accomplished 241 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:51.880 as well. So he called FBI and he gave up 242 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:56.519 the username and the name of this chat room that 243 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:02.000 these guys bragged about their trophies. And and with the 244 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:06.759 help of ya who FBI was able to track down 245 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.960 his IP address and and and who was actually the 246 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:17.400 man behind the profile master of enslaved teenage girls. I 247 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.920 believe that was one of his many profile names. And 248 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:29.599 they raided his house in Virginia, and they did that 249 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:35.519 in the afternoon, late afternoon, And when they did, they 250 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:39.279 found a thirteen year old kid that was scared to death, 251 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:43.440 not only because in all of a sudden you have 252 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:50.720 FBI agents coming through the front door, but when this guy, 253 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:55.480 Scott left the house in the morning, he conveyed a 254 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:02.839 message to Alisha A grew some message. She said that 255 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:06.640 he was becoming too fond of her, and therefore they 256 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.480 would have to go for a drive when he came 257 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:14.920 back from work. And though she was only thirteen years old, 258 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:20.640 she decoded that message right away that this grown man 259 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:24.680 was falling in love with her or was being too 260 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:29.160 keen on having her in as a hostage in the basement, 261 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:34.160 and eventually that will create problems for him. So he 262 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:37.079 had to get rid of these problems in the afternoon, 263 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.759 and she imagined how he would come back and bring 264 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:48.640 her out to perhaps the woods and killing her. But 265 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:54.759 she was rescued last minute by the FBI, and her 266 00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:02.519 case became one of the cases that involved online predators 267 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:08.400 for the first time in the US, and there's been 268 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:14.200 a lot to learn from that case. Afterwards, you could 269 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:20.480 detect patterns of these online predators and then naturally study 270 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:23.920 how they think and how they act and how they 271 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:33.440 laud these poor girls and boys in in the worst 272 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.440 case scenario, not only abuse them but also kill them. 273 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:43.640 And we all know that online danger should they represents 274 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:49.039 one of the greatest dangers to our kids, because kids, 275 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:53.640 as it should be in many ways, they naively believe 276 00:21:54.559 --> 00:22:00.640 that if you say your thirteen year old schoolgirl interested 277 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.839 in descendance, movies and so on like you are. Then 278 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:09.559 you feel that you have appear on the other side 279 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:15.799 and not a potential danger to your own life. So 280 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:22.640 that's why I decided to start the book with her chapter. 281 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.319 I wanted to know to shed light on one of 282 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:29.079 these new dangers, if I can put it that way. 283 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:34.359 But also because to me it has been so important 284 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:42.400 that you and I as onlookers bypasses people who have 285 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:48.359 never been in this situation can only imagine what it's like. 286 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:53.440 I have wanted to give us much information about what 287 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.920 is actually like to be a victim of an abduction, 288 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:03.519 so we can not understand fully, but you know, hopefully 289 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:08.680 understand a bit more than our imagination left us with 290 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.640 in the first place. So in order to understand the 291 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:17.359 following cases in the book, I wanted to give an 292 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:21.279 idea about what goes through the mind of a child 293 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:26.480 when being abducted. How does this child try to survive? 294 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:33.480 How does this child try to maintain hope? And you know, 295 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:38.960 it's so brutal because all she was left with Alicia 296 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:46.119 as she was chained to the flow of a dungeon 297 00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:51.880 in a basement, that was hoping that her parents would 298 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:56.440 come and save her, because you know, that's the point 299 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.519 you're at when you're a kid. When you're a child, 300 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:04.240 you pray that your parents will come and rescue you. 301 00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:08.119 Grown ups they would hopefully or not hopefully, they will 302 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:11.359 probably be praying that law enforcement will come. But you know, 303 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:16.799 it even shows so much more to me how cruel 304 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:24.039 these crimes against kids are because kids, when they become 305 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:29.039 the victims, they haven't even realized the possibility of becoming. 306 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:36.759 It's also a good example of how fast this pardon me, 307 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:41.559 this evolution has happened in our awareness. You're talking about 308 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:45.039 two thousand and two, and parents didn't even you know, 309 00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:49.680 these kids' parents. Her parents had no idea of meeting 310 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.920 anyone online in any way just because of the time, 311 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.599 had no relationship with computers and meeting anyone online. But 312 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.920 you also talk about afterwards, it's very important this story 313 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:06.160 that some people were questioning either her parents' supervision or 314 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.640 also what she was doing a thirteen year old talking 315 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.359 to an older man. So people didn't understand grooming at 316 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:14.880 that time at all. Now we understand, we've heard the term. 317 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.480 It's also a very good example of how this person 318 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:23.480 groomed this young girl picked the vulnerable person you talked 319 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.799 about Alicia being maybe not top of her class or 320 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:31.039 the most popular girl, and he fed into that. And also, 321 00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:34.000 as you say, the most important thing is for this 322 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.319 predator to gain this child's trust. 323 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:45.319 Yeah, and it's true, as you say, today, we know 324 00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:51.599 the terms, but the interesting thing is actually do we 325 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:57.160 as parents know what's behind the term? How many parents 326 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:04.599 actually have a solid awareness about what their kids are 327 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.839 doing when they go on to all these different social 328 00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:13.119 media that you and I don't even know the names of, 329 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:19.240 because there are you know, developing and increasing so rapidly, 330 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:25.160 and who is it? How do you actually as a 331 00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:32.400 parent detect if this person that portrays or presents himself 332 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:40.720 nick cleft your own man. And when you meet someone 333 00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:44.079 face to face in the street, you know if things 334 00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:50.920 are right or wrong. But as a teenager or doesn't 335 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.279 even have to be as a teenager. Also when you're twenty, 336 00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.799 when you're thirty, and you're forty, you just don't know 337 00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:05.160 what's on the other end of the computer in another 338 00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:11.880 household than yours. And that's what's really scary about online 339 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:18.880 danger and grooming. And in my opinion, there's only one 340 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.960 way to protect our kids against this, and that's by 341 00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:26.680 talking to them about it. And before we can talk 342 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:31.359 about it, we have to educate ourselves, for instance, through 343 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:35.720 a book like this or many others, what grooming is about, 344 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:40.759 What warning signs should we be looking for? How should 345 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:45.079 we guide our kids so they know what to look 346 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:50.240 for themselves without you know, naturally scaring them from also 347 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:57.720 being a part of life in twenty nineteen, which to 348 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:00.599 not only teenagers but by all of us, is an 349 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:04.720 online world. But what we do we look for and 350 00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:10.960 it goes in many cases involving abductions. Not only that 351 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:16.119 relates to online predators, but in general, we need to 352 00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:21.559 empower and educate our kids to be aware of the 353 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:26.440 danger and if they come to meet the danger, because 354 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:31.559 no one knows who will or when, but if someone 355 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:37.000 would meet this danger, we need to empower the kids 356 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:45.519 to protect themselves by resisting. And these days, you know, 357 00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:50.720 the online world, the online universe is represents a huge 358 00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:55.880 danger to these kids. 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She 382 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:23.640 went back to school, Alicia's law passage in eleven states. 383 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:28.799 She went and got a psych degree master in psychology. 384 00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:35.279 But still, you also talk about so many examples in 385 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:38.799 this book of PTSD and flashbacks and nightmares just being 386 00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:44.279 part of the equation to even add to this incredible 387 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:51.519 story with Alicia, what happens with her perpetrator, Scott Tyrie. 388 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:59.359 Yeah, naturally, he was sentenced, and he didn't do a 389 00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:05.599 fool sentence. He was actually released in the beginning of 390 00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:13.000 twenty nineteen, and he was released into the community where 391 00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:19.920 he abducted Alicia and not far from where her parents 392 00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:24.079 are living today. And this happened without the knowledge of 393 00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:30.680 the family nor Affords his bother to warn or tell 394 00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:36.559 the family that the guy who had actually abducted and 395 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:39.359 perhaps who knows what he would have done with her 396 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:42.680 if she had been rescued, that he was actually back 397 00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:46.880 on the streets. And they've been going through the court 398 00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:57.920 system trying to force Affords Hiss to redo their decision 399 00:31:58.039 --> 00:32:03.240 of releasing him into a safe house in Pittsburgh. And 400 00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:08.799 to me, you can always discuss how long a sentence 401 00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:12.039