WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Have you seen sentiment this bad or was it worse

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<v Speaker 1>in FTX.

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<v Speaker 2>The sentiments it's not someone said it's bad, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>bit whiny. It might just be the case that the

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<v Speaker 2>days of one hundred x gains in crypto or over

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<v Speaker 2>the returns are not as asymmetric as they used to

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<v Speaker 2>and the new opportunity for those types of returns or

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<v Speaker 2>in prediction markets. Maybe it doesn't mean that this isn't

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<v Speaker 2>something that is going to continue to accelerate from a

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<v Speaker 2>growth perspective, but the easy money might have been made.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode is brought to you by v Chain. V

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<v Speaker 1>chain is one of the top layer one enterprise blockchains

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<v Speaker 1>INDIE crypto asset class and they are getting adoption by

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<v Speaker 1>many big brands and companies around the world who are

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<v Speaker 1>building Web three and decentralized application technologies. I've been a

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<v Speaker 1>vet token holder for many years. In fact, I started

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<v Speaker 1>investing in v chain back in twenty eighteen, and some

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<v Speaker 1>of the key features of the v chain blockchain includes

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<v Speaker 1>its secure, affordable, scalable, fast, and sustainable. Some of the

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<v Speaker 1>companies and brands working with v chain include Jivon, Chi,

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<v Speaker 1>Walmart China, BMW, Boston Consulting, Group and many more. Most recently,

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<v Speaker 1>they partnered with Dana White in the UFC, and Dana

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<v Speaker 1>White even said recently that he purchased over a million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars of the VET token, and v chain also recently

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<v Speaker 1>launched staking where you can stake the vet token and

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<v Speaker 1>earn great rewards. So if you'd like to learn more

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<v Speaker 1>about v chain, go to vchain dot org. Link will

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<v Speaker 1>be in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into the Thinking

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<v Speaker 1>Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and we're recording

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<v Speaker 1>at Station three in New York's Financial District. And joining

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<v Speaker 1>me today is Frank Jhaparo, who's the head of Content

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<v Speaker 1>and Special Projects at GSR. Frank also has an extensive

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<v Speaker 1>experience in the crypto market, covering the industry as a

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<v Speaker 1>reporter at the Block. Frank, great to have you.

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<v Speaker 2>Great to be here, so nice to get to try

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<v Speaker 2>out the new mic system. I'm loving this area. This

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<v Speaker 2>is super good. I didn't know this existed. I know

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<v Speaker 2>the whole fruits exist, I didn't know this little space

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<v Speaker 2>existed and it's all crypto.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess yeah. Majority crypto web three companies, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of startups and folks building in the industry, by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>just so folks know, you and I first met and

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<v Speaker 1>shout out to Anthony Pompleano at Anthony Pompleana's Christmas crypto

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<v Speaker 1>party in twenty nineteen. I remember mark Uska was there

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<v Speaker 1>and that's where we first met.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels like a different time, doesn't everybody was younger.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess that might be.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think both of us had to as many grays, right,

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<v Speaker 1>definitely not. And it's like that meme the Interstellar.

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<v Speaker 2>It was at that big club, right, what was the

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<v Speaker 2>jay Z Club or something that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't remember the name, but I know what you're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about. The name escapes me. It was a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>pretty nice place. Yeah, those were wild times though, because

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<v Speaker 1>bigcoin was tumbling down to three, but it was more fun.

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<v Speaker 2>It felt like, isn't it crazy how at ninety thousand,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, people are losing their losing their mind over

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<v Speaker 2>over you know, the sentiment's not as good, Yeah as

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<v Speaker 2>when it was maybe at nine or ten.

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<v Speaker 1>It was rough.

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<v Speaker 2>It's rough leverage, that's what leverage will do to people.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the biggest leverage wipeout on October tenth, right, and

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<v Speaker 1>it seems like that cut the legs out from the market,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, for the time being, at.

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<v Speaker 2>Least, it feels like I was just I was visiting

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<v Speaker 2>my grandparents on October tenth. I was down there and

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<v Speaker 2>I was just like so funny. I was like, cryptos,

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<v Speaker 2>it's really exploding, and my Grandma's like, that's great. No,

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<v Speaker 2>it was like exploding in the bad way, and she's like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>that's too bad. But yeah, this market, like we were

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<v Speaker 2>talking about before we turn the mics, has been really

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<v Speaker 2>unique in a number of ways. Obviously, the price is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I never would have thought we'd be at

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<v Speaker 2>ninety k when we were at nine care when I

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<v Speaker 2>started covering this asset a reporter when it was at

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<v Speaker 2>nine hundred dollars or a thousand sure or whatever it was.

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<v Speaker 2>But the one thing that is interesting is that it

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<v Speaker 2>is nothing, really is. It's not getting a bit on anything.

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<v Speaker 2>And it seems like bad news is really bad and

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<v Speaker 2>good news is bad or ma when it comes to

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<v Speaker 2>bitcoin and crypto right now?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you feel there's some manipulation happening? Look, this market

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<v Speaker 1>is not fully regulated. It's the first truly global market

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<v Speaker 1>that trades twenty four to seven. And we see the

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<v Speaker 1>New York Socock Exchange and other folks are trying to

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<v Speaker 1>follow that. But maybe it's a manipulation, right, and they

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<v Speaker 1>could be the market makers could be waiting to I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know, wait for the crypto market structural legislation or

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<v Speaker 1>things to get into better position politically, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that it's probably just a market structure issue,

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<v Speaker 2>like the market has grown to trillion's and but if

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<v Speaker 2>you look at like the patchwork of market infrastructure providers

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<v Speaker 2>and trading firms and liquidity providers, it's probably the same

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<v Speaker 2>amount of players as there were five years ago when

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<v Speaker 2>the market was just approaching a trillion, right, And you

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<v Speaker 2>have to think after FTX, there's still a massive liquidity gap,

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<v Speaker 2>or at least a big liquidity gap in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>two of our largest liquidity players excuse me, liquidity providers

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<v Speaker 2>are out of the market FTX or their sister company

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<v Speaker 2>ALMDA gone and Genesis right, which was at the center

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<v Speaker 2>of our market. Credit. Our credit infrastructure is still looking

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<v Speaker 2>at its wounds, or at least it's still pills in

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<v Speaker 2>comparison to the size that it was in twenty twenty one,

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<v Speaker 2>which again was really a credit crisis, and that was

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<v Speaker 2>twenty billion dollar book that Genesis managed, which is now gone.

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<v Speaker 2>So when you have you have effectively a very you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we took we took a few steps back after that,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we still have a relatively nascent or at

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<v Speaker 2>least sophomoric market structure, Waltz being three times as big,

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<v Speaker 2>and so that makes sort of that makes for you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the liquidity issues that we see on a day like

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<v Speaker 2>ten ten, and then after something like that, it does

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<v Speaker 2>stand to reason. I think we get a little anxious,

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<v Speaker 2>and we get a little ahead of ourselves in crypto.

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<v Speaker 2>But after an event like that, you could see why

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<v Speaker 2>the market might be cautious and why most rallies are

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<v Speaker 2>quickly sold off, and we haven't. You know, it keeps

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<v Speaker 2>bringing us back to that, to that floor. We you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I was hoping that one forty would create a new

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<v Speaker 2>baseline for Salon. About here we are one twenty seven,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it's going to take you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to take a bit of you know, we were

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<v Speaker 2>saying before we turn the mics, it's it's not like it.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't like anything bad. So like you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>Trump knew anything around tariffs that spooked the market, anything

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<v Speaker 2>around macro or the fed that spooks the market. Crypto

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<v Speaker 2>just can't take it. It can't take it. So you

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<v Speaker 2>know what it really needs is some stability, right, but

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<v Speaker 2>that's not something that can be promised.

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<v Speaker 1>And do you see that maybe the likes of or

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<v Speaker 1>maybe it could be frustrating.

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<v Speaker 2>It's frustrating because you know, think about it, a few

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, in twenty twenty one, we were told that

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<v Speaker 2>this was you know, this is this is almost existential

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<v Speaker 2>without being dramatic. Right, this was supposed to be the

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<v Speaker 2>fastest horse in the inflation race, yes, as per pul

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<v Speaker 2>tutor Jones, And this is what a lot of folks

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<v Speaker 2>within crypto expounded. And that's not the case. Right. Gold

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<v Speaker 2>is experiencing this this breakneck rally, while spitcoin is like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, withering in the duldrums, and that's really bad.

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<v Speaker 2>And the longer that that happens, the worst it is.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's definitely a wake up call and you can

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<v Speaker 2>you can imagine that the sentiment it's such as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>people have cognitive dissidence and just can't wrap their head

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<v Speaker 2>around it. And that's coupled with the fact that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're at a point right now where nothing really could

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<v Speaker 2>from a from an adoption perspective, obviously you could have

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<v Speaker 2>more app usage and there could be more traction there.

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<v Speaker 2>But from an adoption perspective from Wall Street, everything that

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<v Speaker 2>we thought could happen is happening. And stable coins are

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<v Speaker 2>real and Teather is a multi billion dollar company tens

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<v Speaker 2>of billions of dollars in valuation and hundreds of billions

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<v Speaker 2>of dollars or what does it maybe sub two hundred

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<v Speaker 2>billion and assets multiple billion dollar publicly created companies. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and stable coins have been accepted as something that's important

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<v Speaker 2>across Wall Street. And that's it. And then so it's like, why,

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<v Speaker 2>what's what's missing? And that's a that's a tough place.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a tough place of being. Yeah, I think everybody

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of scratching their heads as to what's going

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<v Speaker 1>on because you have the four year cycle believers and

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<v Speaker 1>then the self fulfilling prophecy. Oh no, it crashed on

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<v Speaker 1>ten ten. That must be the top of the market,

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<v Speaker 1>even though that felt very manipulated. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>that's the right word. But at the same time, like

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<v Speaker 1>you're saying, adoption is on an amazing level. We've never

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<v Speaker 1>seen anything like this, we're at the cusp of getting

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<v Speaker 1>crypto legislation. You have ETF inflows. I mean, you look

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<v Speaker 1>at the black rock et fastest growing each have ever,

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<v Speaker 1>So what is happening? You know, is this indeed the

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<v Speaker 1>top of them or has the market top or just

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<v Speaker 1>like a mid cycle pullback.

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<v Speaker 2>You know what it is? It might be just it

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<v Speaker 2>might just be that. I think there's another question, at

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<v Speaker 2>least in the conversation that I have, that puts into

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<v Speaker 2>question the value of tokens or where value ac cruise? Right,

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<v Speaker 2>And it's very clear that stable coins work and blockchain works,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's why you have interactive brogers working on settlement

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<v Speaker 2>with USCC, and why you have the New York Stock

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<v Speaker 2>Exchange saying that they're going to move to twenty four

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<v Speaker 2>to seven tokenization, tokenized trading excuse me. And it's why

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<v Speaker 2>you know all these things are happening is because it

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<v Speaker 2>works better. But where does the value of that efficiency accrue?

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<v Speaker 2>Does it a crue to Solana and ethereum, or does

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<v Speaker 2>it crew to equities? Does it accrue to the companies

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<v Speaker 2>that are facilitating that transformation they're building on top of

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<v Speaker 2>those projects. And so what we've seen in the past

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<v Speaker 2>quarter is the value a crew to equities in the

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<v Speaker 2>form of well a crew. And we've seen it a crew,

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<v Speaker 2>and we've seen it, you know, abandon the market as

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<v Speaker 2>quickly as as it got there with the DAT fallout.

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<v Speaker 2>But we saw it a crew to equity businesses. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's that was the main story of Q four And

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<v Speaker 2>so now we're in a part of the story where

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<v Speaker 2>it's like it's not when to you know, it used

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<v Speaker 2>to be when token. Now it's why token, so to speak,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're trying to figure out where that value a crew, right, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>But do you think it's also just the natural sicklecality

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<v Speaker 1>of the market. And if you go back to the

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<v Speaker 1>Trump presidency and him getting voted in, you had incredible euphoria.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of old coins did move and Bitcoin clearly

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<v Speaker 1>move right breaking one hundred k. But were we so

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<v Speaker 1>euphoric and this sentiment is so much agreed that we're

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<v Speaker 1>still feeling the Affri effect?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it wasn't that like well in terms of price, right,

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<v Speaker 2>like Ethereum only returned to its previous all term high,

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<v Speaker 2>Salona only went to like three hundred. Maybe that was

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<v Speaker 2>like I think it's previous all the time I was

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<v Speaker 2>like two something or other And there's dilution obviously.

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<v Speaker 1>But what about the mean coins ripping?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Trump deaf coin I and you definitely had like

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people got burnt on that. But you

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<v Speaker 2>know what's crazy is that's a lot of down fifty

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<v Speaker 2>percent since Trump got elected. Yeah, Trump is down ninety percent,

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<v Speaker 2>bitcoins down something like I don't know, thirty percent or something.

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<v Speaker 1>Man, It's it's pretty crazy. So I'm curious.

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<v Speaker 2>I fand to cover though it's fun to watch.

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<v Speaker 1>Watch, right, Yeah, how does it from like GSR handle

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<v Speaker 1>those market volataty items? As a market maker, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>is it just business as usual or is crypto like

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<v Speaker 1>its own beast where you guys have to pivot and

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<v Speaker 1>make sure you cover all your bases and things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good question. I mean, like, we run a

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<v Speaker 2>very uh diverse business, right, So there's obviously liquidity that's important.

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<v Speaker 2>There's market making, there's OTC, systematic OTC, there's venture and

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<v Speaker 2>so when there's events like ten ten, obviously on the

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<v Speaker 2>market making side of the house, that's where we're most active.

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<v Speaker 2>But the demand ebbs and flows with with where the

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<v Speaker 2>market is and you know we ran we operate asset

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<v Speaker 2>managements during the dat dat camera explosion. We were very

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<v Speaker 2>active as a partner there, as an asset management partner

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<v Speaker 2>and as an investor. So it just depends. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there's always something to do. We think about effectively acting

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<v Speaker 2>like similar to Goldman sacks as as almost like a

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<v Speaker 2>merchant or investment bank. Right. When you think about Goldman,

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<v Speaker 2>which is not too far from we're recording, actually you

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<v Speaker 2>know you have them investing in the founder. Uh. Then effectively,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe that founder goes on to go public, they underwrite

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<v Speaker 2>that IPO, and then maybe that company, after their IPO

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<v Speaker 2>goes on to acquire companies that compete with it for

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<v Speaker 2>inorganic growth. Sure, and Goldman facilitates that via M and A.

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<v Speaker 2>And then of course the stock of that company that trade.

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<v Speaker 2>Goldman might serve as the designated market maker for that

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<v Speaker 2>company's stock. And then for that founder that I mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>at the beginning, he might have amassed a lot of money,

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<v Speaker 2>and Goldman, through its wealth management business, will then manage

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<v Speaker 2>that I forget what the kids call it, gs G

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<v Speaker 2>SAM right anyway, so we are doing that but for crypto, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and crypto is not that different that's a lot. That's

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<v Speaker 2>something that people don't really understand it. It has a

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<v Speaker 2>similar market structure, but just different words, right, instead of

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<v Speaker 2>and so we have a token market making business, which

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<v Speaker 2>is best thought of is like facilitating that process that

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<v Speaker 2>I just described with the Goldman entrepreneur. Let's call that

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<v Speaker 2>guy Mark Zuckerberg in that company Facebook, right, You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we may invest in the start, we may invest in

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<v Speaker 2>the token project, and then we see it through that

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<v Speaker 2>life cycle of help it go to market, find a

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<v Speaker 2>footing in the public markets, help its token trade and

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<v Speaker 2>mitigate volatility by providing ample amounts of liquidity and then

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<v Speaker 2>potentially providing services that help manage the treasury of that

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<v Speaker 2>of that project, and then potentially even maybe one day

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think we really do much of this now,

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<v Speaker 2>providing some sort of and concierge wealth management to these

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to the cryptos ultra rich and helping them

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<v Speaker 2>something that actually we were just starting to see this

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<v Speaker 2>build that happened before the fall out of FTX, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's happening again, but it's more slow, slow, more slowly.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people don't remember this, but at the

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<v Speaker 2>time Barry Silbert's DCG was working on expanding a company

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<v Speaker 2>called h Q. It was kind of under the reps

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time. Yeah, A lot of people don't

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<v Speaker 2>know about this. That sounds very Trump of the Trump

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people don't know. I knew, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was going to be like a ultra high network concierge

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<v Speaker 2>situation where the crypto ultra wealthy would get support on

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<v Speaker 2>a wide range of things from you know, chartering a

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<v Speaker 2>private jet to a state planning and wealth management services.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, it's it's a need in the market

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't really exist. But anyway, that's I think you asked

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<v Speaker 2>me how we uh, how the process of market making

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<v Speaker 2>works or when things get busy. Obviously we've got to

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<v Speaker 2>be twenty four to seven. We've got people staffed at

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<v Speaker 2>the desk at all times, and it's really just I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a it's a computers game, right, It's making sure

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<v Speaker 2>that our risk systems and our algorithms are firing on

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<v Speaker 2>all cylinders and in having the balance sheet to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of go out to market and be reliant and able

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<v Speaker 2>to counterparty. Yeah, but it's so much more. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>like I think, not just for us, but for the

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<v Speaker 2>market overall. Like people don't understand or have visibility. Rather,

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<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't say they don't understand. That's pejorative. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>see the full scope of I didn't see it right either,

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<v Speaker 2>of how much sort of work goes into making our

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<v Speaker 2>markets function and there's a lot still missing, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, yeah, the infrastructure is still being built. Still need

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<v Speaker 1>crypto market structure legation to maybe get some of those

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<v Speaker 1>things in place. Yeah, definitely, pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm the host of the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to ask you if you can please support the podcast

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<v Speaker 1>by hitting the like button subscribing. If you haven't as yet,

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<v Speaker 1>you can leave a comment below as well. And if

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<v Speaker 1>you're listening on a podcast platform such as Spotify, Apple

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<v Speaker 1>or wherever you get your podcasts, please be sure to

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<v Speaker 1>follow and hit the five star rating. I'll let you

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<v Speaker 1>get back to the content. Thank you so much, Frank.

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<v Speaker 1>I am really curious about your time of the block

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<v Speaker 1>and first question would be have you seen sentiment this

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<v Speaker 1>bad or was it worse than FTX.

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<v Speaker 2>The sentiments It's not someone said it's bad. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>like it's just a little it's.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Whiny, okay now, and it's like, come on, like you're fine,

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<v Speaker 2>Like it might just be the case of the days

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<v Speaker 2>of one hundred x gains in crypto or over the

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<v Speaker 2>returns are not as asymmetric as they used to and

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<v Speaker 2>the new opportunity for those types of returns or in

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<v Speaker 2>prediction markets maybe and that's just that could be the reality. Sure,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't mean that this isn't something that is going

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<v Speaker 2>to continue to accelerate from a growth perspective, but the

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<v Speaker 2>easy money might have been made anyway. So people are

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<v Speaker 2>really upset about that, naturally, because people will want easy money.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, who doesn't. After FTX, I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>really a bit more existential is now right where?

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<v Speaker 1>Or fear and like, oh my god, is this the ear?

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<v Speaker 2>And and you know, people really got out, especially the

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<v Speaker 2>you know, all these venture funds that were these generalist

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<v Speaker 2>funds that had you know, put money into what what

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<v Speaker 2>effectively was the issue was you had a number of

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<v Speaker 2>centralized financial services companies basically FinTechs with with crypto offerings

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<v Speaker 2>X blow up incredibly so and people outside of crypto

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't really tell the difference between that and crypto itself.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you had this exodus and that was a

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<v Speaker 2>huge blow and that resulted in like pretty bad sentiment

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<v Speaker 2>for you know, a few quarters and then we kind

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<v Speaker 2>of rebounded.

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<v Speaker 1>What was that the craziest story you covered or were

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<v Speaker 1>there are other things that happened maybe on the regular side,

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<v Speaker 1>regulator side, like Genser or anything else, or was that

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<v Speaker 1>that was the big pinnacle moment of disaster in the industry?

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<v Speaker 2>You know for the Block it was. It was really

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<v Speaker 2>insane because we were entangled in the entire thing and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we we had a CEO who had borrowed

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<v Speaker 2>millions of dollars from Sambankuin freed Wow, and we those

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<v Speaker 2>loans were never disclosed until there was this blow up

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, he stepped down and there was this

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<v Speaker 2>major transition and it was pretty intense, right yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean he brought there was a it was a massive

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<v Speaker 2>there was a massive domino effect across the market. I

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes think about how insane it is that the Block

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<v Speaker 2>survived that that those those times, because after that there

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<v Speaker 2>was a trust gap that needed to be filled, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, sponsors weren't as keen to work with us

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<v Speaker 2>after that because they maybe not less maybe not just

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<v Speaker 2>because they didn't trust us, but because they didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>where the market was going, and so you want to

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<v Speaker 2>be conservative with your spend, right, But it was very

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<v Speaker 2>intense times and personally as well too, right, because you

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if the place that you know you've been

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<v Speaker 2>working at for a number of years will we'll go

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<v Speaker 2>under and and you know there's a sunk costs in

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<v Speaker 2>that where you know, you think, I dedicated so much

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<v Speaker 2>time to this that you know you want to stick around,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I did, despite tons of people told me

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<v Speaker 2>to leave. And you know, they weathered the storm and

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<v Speaker 2>we got through it, and now the company is in

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<v Speaker 2>a very like stable place and is under new ownership.

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<v Speaker 2>But I mean there was a time where like I think,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, is this the day that we uh finally die?

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<v Speaker 1>Right? No, I had those thoughts too, And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I was then working at a crypto exchange. I think

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<v Speaker 1>it was okay Coin, which is backed by Okay okay X,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, oh my god, that I'd make a

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<v Speaker 1>big mistake here because it looked like the entire industry

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<v Speaker 1>was going to collapse, And of course you think about

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<v Speaker 1>your livelihood and career. It's like, man, this really sucks.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, I was also doing a podcast on

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<v Speaker 1>the side, and I stuck it through, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we got better days after.

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<v Speaker 2>That, got a better on yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but uh boy, that was a rough time.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was I mean, but but during the whole

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<v Speaker 2>FTX saga, it was just endless, endless work, sure, endless chasing,

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, part of it was like I need

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<v Speaker 2>to understand this for myself, right, it became a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of an obsession. I mean I remember, like in those

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<v Speaker 2>first few weeks, constantly on the phone, I probably talked

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<v Speaker 2>to everybody you can imagine, just what do you think,

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<v Speaker 2>what do you know? Who do you what were the signs?

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<v Speaker 2>You know. Sure, it was really intense, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>also a lot of fun. I mean yeah, because it's

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<v Speaker 2>like it's like it's like my own like I'm in

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<v Speaker 2>my own like mini series.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, yeah, that's a crazy time. And I

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<v Speaker 1>you know, one of the things that I like to

395
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<v Speaker 1>remind people of, and it's not the boats, but just

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<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a saying I think Warren Buffett said,

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<v Speaker 1>by the when people are greedy, be fearful. When people

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<v Speaker 1>are fearful, it'll be greedy. I remember in November decembery.

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<v Speaker 1>I started buying bitcoin when it was crashing on like

400
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<v Speaker 1>fifteen sixteen K and that worked out. I was a

401
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:43.279
<v Speaker 1>good bet and and that's so I'm also trying to

402
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:47.079
<v Speaker 1>remind myself of that now, like right now everybody, there's

403
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.559
<v Speaker 1>some people who are fearful. Some people that's it, it's done,

404
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:54.359
<v Speaker 1>it's boring. Crypto is dead, even though we have incredible adoption,

405
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.519
<v Speaker 1>but the sentiment and the price action seems to be dead.

406
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<v Speaker 1>But it'll return. I think. I think it's there's gonna

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<v Speaker 1>be rotational liquidity from precious metals. They're going to top

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<v Speaker 1>out at some point.

409
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<v Speaker 2>And you believe in the catchup trade.

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<v Speaker 1>I do it to a bit because if you again,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're looking at it from like two to three months,

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<v Speaker 1>four months, yeah, but if you're looking from a yearly standpoint,

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<v Speaker 1>you put the gold chart with bitcoin. You see when

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<v Speaker 1>gold is cooling down, bitcoin runs. That's it a lot, right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm hoping. I mean, well, how do you feel

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<v Speaker 1>do you feel that this is.

417
00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:29.880
<v Speaker 2>A market year? Oh? Well, yeah, I mean look at it.

418
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:33.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean we're i mean October, you know, it's it

419
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.240
<v Speaker 2>was a little bit before October. That's just when it

420
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:38.839
<v Speaker 2>really like really shit the bed. But I mean we're

421
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.920
<v Speaker 2>getting to a year, we're down off the highs, like

422
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, some coins eighty seventy percent, so like this

423
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:49.279
<v Speaker 2>is but bitcoin is a little bit of a different story.

424
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:53.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it feels like bitcoin had a decent bull market,

425
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:55.759
<v Speaker 1>but all coins did not. Yeah right, bigcoin kind of

426
00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:57.000
<v Speaker 1>did it very short lived.

427
00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:59.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh thanks to Malania.

428
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Coins.

429
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:03.640
<v Speaker 2>I did make some money on that beach, not a lot.

430
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:05.920
<v Speaker 2>I made enough. I went to costco and I got

431
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.839
<v Speaker 2>a new TV from trump coined.

432
00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:12.359
<v Speaker 1>So I have to ask, Frank, you live in New York,

433
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:16.400
<v Speaker 1>tell me you own some NYC tokens issued by Eric

434
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Adams recently.

435
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:22.519
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't. I don't. I uh, I can't believe

436
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:24.799
<v Speaker 2>that Eric Adams is funny though. You know I interviewed

437
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:28.240
<v Speaker 2>him ten years ago. Really yeah, when he was Brooklyn

438
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:32.839
<v Speaker 2>Borough president. I forget about what though. You know he

439
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>was really bigger that back then. You know he got

440
00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:38.039
<v Speaker 2>They told me he was going to get diabetes, and

441
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:42.680
<v Speaker 2>he went totally keto and he reversed his diabetes. Wow.

442
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:43.799
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people don't know that.

443
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:47.319
<v Speaker 1>Maybe he should have put the you know, he's funny though.

444
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.599
<v Speaker 1>The mission behind his token is make New York is

445
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:51.839
<v Speaker 1>healthy again versus No.

446
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:55.119
<v Speaker 2>He's a funny guy but obviously very But who isn't

447
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:58.240
<v Speaker 2>controversial these days? You know, everybody's controversial. Oh my god,

448
00:26:58.279 --> 00:26:59.599
<v Speaker 2>my thumb's controversial.

449
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:02.200
<v Speaker 1>But I guess if the president can do it, Milania

450
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:04.960
<v Speaker 1>can do it, Barron can, Eric Adams can do it.

451
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 2>Eric Adams can do it.

452
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.759
<v Speaker 1>What do you? What are your thoughts about meme coins? Look,

453
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.480
<v Speaker 1>I know it's like human nature online and on chain,

454
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:16.799
<v Speaker 1>and you can't stop some of these trends. Right, you

455
00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:21.519
<v Speaker 1>have the virality, but now people can speculate on it.

456
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.319
<v Speaker 1>Do you think this is something that continues moving forward?

457
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:27.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I get into these arguments with my girlfriend.

458
00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:31.359
<v Speaker 2>They're not really arguments with these discussions rather sure where

459
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:36.519
<v Speaker 2>she wants me to change my She suggests that I

460
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:40.960
<v Speaker 2>change my headshot for some things, from my pudgy penguin

461
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.000
<v Speaker 2>to my actual headshot. She comes from traditional finance, traifying.

462
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:46.680
<v Speaker 2>She thinks that, like, you know, people might want to

463
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.880
<v Speaker 2>meet me at this conference. I want to take me seriously,

464
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and I think that it's funny and that you know,

465
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:57.599
<v Speaker 2>I see her side right, like you know, makes you

466
00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:03.160
<v Speaker 2>people aren't gonna know that's you if it's a pudgy penguin.

467
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:06.519
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, this is all to say that I've always

468
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:10.640
<v Speaker 2>been a firm believer in the power of mimetics and culture,

469
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.839
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's important. And I think the sort

470
00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:20.920
<v Speaker 2>of financialization of humor, which is something that we all

471
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.839
<v Speaker 2>share and as one of the greatest gifts we can

472
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.720
<v Speaker 2>give someone else is the gift of laughter. I think

473
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:33.240
<v Speaker 2>financializing that's really powerful and interesting, but it can also

474
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:38.039
<v Speaker 2>be really dangerous, as we've seen, yes, and so I

475
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:42.160
<v Speaker 2>think that, like, I don't have a great answer for

476
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:45.799
<v Speaker 2>it in terms of like how do we capture sort

477
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:50.960
<v Speaker 2>of the There's been so many memes and history from

478
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:56.559
<v Speaker 2>like you know, the cats on the Internet to whatever

479
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:01.480
<v Speaker 2>it might be. And I think like folks are part

480
00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:05.559
<v Speaker 2>of that and contribute to that. To see some financial

481
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:07.960
<v Speaker 2>gain from that is cool and it's an interesting new

482
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:12.680
<v Speaker 2>form of capital formation, right, you know, and and people

483
00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:14.880
<v Speaker 2>can participate on it. But that's one side of the sword.

484
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.160
<v Speaker 2>And so I think, just like anything else, there should

485
00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:23.440
<v Speaker 2>be some uh guardrails, some some guardrails or something, But

486
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.319
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they're inherently bad like some of right people.

487
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:28.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, I'm gonnagree with you. I'm a I believe

488
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:30.799
<v Speaker 1>in the free market. If you want to go to

489
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.720
<v Speaker 1>casino and throw it all on Runner black, yeah yeah.

490
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:37.920
<v Speaker 1>And or you want to buy part coin, just not

491
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.799
<v Speaker 1>a risk. You know, to be smart, be do your

492
00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:44.400
<v Speaker 1>research and just know you're gambling to a certain degree there,

493
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:46.839
<v Speaker 1>and then you know to your point of this is

494
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:50.440
<v Speaker 1>a new model for capital formation. So I'm more interested

495
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.319
<v Speaker 1>in how this is used by enterprises like Amazon or

496
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:56.119
<v Speaker 1>even entrepreneurs who are looking to raise capital to build

497
00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:59.119
<v Speaker 1>their business, and how they can use this technology to

498
00:29:59.160 --> 00:29:59.519
<v Speaker 1>do things.

499
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.839
<v Speaker 2>You just you just do what Eric Adams, Trump and

500
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.839
<v Speaker 2>Lania were able to do. That's like insane, Like that's

501
00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:11.759
<v Speaker 2>insane capital formation. Sometimes it takes to raise that much

502
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.640
<v Speaker 2>money like a team of bankers and a tank and

503
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:17.880
<v Speaker 2>it's like I just came up with an idea and

504
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:23.880
<v Speaker 2>a ticker and I put out an address and I've

505
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.440
<v Speaker 2>raised tens of millions of dollars. Like that's like, you know,

506
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:31.160
<v Speaker 2>that can bootstrap a lot of different things, right, you know,

507
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.039
<v Speaker 2>So that's what's the speed is what's interesting. But then

508
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.359
<v Speaker 2>you can just see there's also the flip side of

509
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:42.279
<v Speaker 2>that is that you know, the rug poles are oft

510
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:47.319
<v Speaker 2>an omnipresent, right, But ultimately I think it the burning

511
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:51.359
<v Speaker 2>of people that that like resulted, that resulted in a

512
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.079
<v Speaker 2>lot of people being weary of crypto, and now they

513
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.799
<v Speaker 2>have all these different options, right, Like crypto when you

514
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:02.279
<v Speaker 2>got into the market, that was the casino and perps

515
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:06.200
<v Speaker 2>were the casino product, and offshore exchanges were actually the

516
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:15.480
<v Speaker 2>physical casinos. Now there are at folks fingertips a myriad

517
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:20.839
<v Speaker 2>of options to participate in the casino, from prediction markets

518
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:25.759
<v Speaker 2>to obviously they had access to options, but you know,

519
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the growth of robinhood and the accessibility of financial products

520
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:38.799
<v Speaker 2>via Robinhood, and then just the change in the market

521
00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:46.400
<v Speaker 2>to be more casino ficcated has given a new playing

522
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:52.000
<v Speaker 2>field outside of crypto, and in some ways it's becoming

523
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:55.839
<v Speaker 2>more crypto than crypto is and that sucks a bit

524
00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:58.319
<v Speaker 2>of the oxygen out of the room. I mean, who

525
00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:00.240
<v Speaker 2>would have thought, like, you know, typically it's it's like,

526
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:05.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, drop the ticker of the coin and it

527
00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:10.640
<v Speaker 2>was all these weird dats. So crypto doesn't get to

528
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:18.640
<v Speaker 2>be the only only weird, volatile gambling toy in the

529
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:19.759
<v Speaker 2>markets anymore.

530
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.400
<v Speaker 1>That's true. It is probably one of the catalysts as

531
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:27.000
<v Speaker 1>to why less action or liquidity and crypto for alts

532
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:31.920
<v Speaker 1>and things like that. You know, you mentioned dats. What

533
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:34.960
<v Speaker 1>do you think about the future of thats there is.

534
00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:37.000
<v Speaker 1>It seems to be a lot of risk because they're

535
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.880
<v Speaker 1>raising debt and you're adding, you know, a volatile asset

536
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:44.240
<v Speaker 1>to your balance sheet, and some of these businesses don't

537
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:47.279
<v Speaker 1>actually have a business model is just simply buy the

538
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:50.440
<v Speaker 1>asset and do the arbitrage with the stock price. You know,

539
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm concerned for like micro Strategy. I'm not concerned about

540
00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:55.920
<v Speaker 1>Tesla taking some of their cash and by bitcoin. I

541
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.799
<v Speaker 1>think that's fine, But the amount of debt and leverage

542
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:02.160
<v Speaker 1>that's been used. Do you think we see a big

543
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:03.559
<v Speaker 1>collapse at of some of these companies.

544
00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:10.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely. I think you're gonna see a massive wave

545
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:14.079
<v Speaker 2>of consolidation. I mean the str I mean I'd always

546
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:16.400
<v Speaker 2>thought that it didn't make a lot of sense, but

547
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:22.920
<v Speaker 2>if you look at micro Strategy right, like, it's one

548
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.279
<v Speaker 2>of the most successful stocks and over the last five

549
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:34.000
<v Speaker 2>years relative to many of the big tech companies. So

550
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the strategy no put intent worked. But yeah, like you

551
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:43.559
<v Speaker 2>can't have there's a cap like this is relatively speaking

552
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:46.880
<v Speaker 2>of a zero's own game, Like you can't have thirty

553
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Salana deaths, like you probably literally can have one, you

554
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:54.759
<v Speaker 2>can have a few Bitcoin deaths. And so there's gonna

555
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:57.519
<v Speaker 2>be a there's gonna be a massive shakeout of these things,

556
00:33:58.240 --> 00:33:59.799
<v Speaker 2>and then the bankers are gonna make a ton of

557
00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:04.480
<v Speaker 2>money because they made fees on the raising of these

558
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.839
<v Speaker 2>things millions of dollars. No one's really talked about how

559
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.920
<v Speaker 2>much money. These guys have made a lot of money,

560
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:14.320
<v Speaker 2>and they're gonna make money on the cleanup, on the consolidation,

561
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:21.320
<v Speaker 2>and on whatever craziness happens as these things kind of unferral.

562
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:26.400
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of banks, big drama last week, banks are trying

563
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.960
<v Speaker 1>to find fight stable corn yield and rewards on exchanges. Yeah,

564
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:32.599
<v Speaker 1>they don't want to obviously lose the big bonuses and

565
00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:34.840
<v Speaker 1>the amount of the interest they keep and just give

566
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:37.920
<v Speaker 1>you zero point zero one percent. What are your thoughts

567
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:40.639
<v Speaker 1>in that situation and the bacle is happening in DC.

568
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:47.559
<v Speaker 2>I think that even if you know, it'd be nice

569
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:49.840
<v Speaker 2>to get that headline of this being kind of sorted,

570
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:51.639
<v Speaker 2>but I don't think it's going to be the panacea

571
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:57.840
<v Speaker 2>that that that's gonna kind of that's not why we're

572
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:02.480
<v Speaker 2>in the market position that we're and that's retail fatigue. Sure,

573
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.960
<v Speaker 2>that's the hangover from the data era. It'd be nice

574
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:11.880
<v Speaker 2>if we get some clarity no pun intended around in

575
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:14.199
<v Speaker 2>the next few weeks. But there's still going to be

576
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:17.880
<v Speaker 2>open questions. There's still going to be open questions for

577
00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:25.519
<v Speaker 2>policymakers and for legislatures, legislators. The banks obviously had a

578
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:29.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of their dirty work done for them by previous

579
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:34.480
<v Speaker 2>administration under chair Genzler, so they could sort of rest

580
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:36.719
<v Speaker 2>on their laurels and sit on their hands knowing that

581
00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:38.840
<v Speaker 2>they were going to take care of these things for

582
00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:44.440
<v Speaker 2>them and not allow crypto to grow any bigger or

583
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:51.840
<v Speaker 2>to offer customers interesting product. The bottom line is stable

584
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:55.800
<v Speaker 2>coins is a better alternative to the existing financial infrastructure.

585
00:35:56.360 --> 00:36:01.320
<v Speaker 2>It's seamless, it's it's easy to use, it's simple to

586
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.719
<v Speaker 2>you to send money and then to earn rewards. And

587
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:10.440
<v Speaker 2>so that terrifies them because since at least the financial crisis,

588
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.000
<v Speaker 2>there's been very little that banks have had to do

589
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:19.960
<v Speaker 2>or had to give customers on deposits, and you know,

590
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.719
<v Speaker 2>that's that's a huge, huge threat, and especially because they

591
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:28.559
<v Speaker 2>can't just roll this stuff out overnight. They can't just

592
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:35.199
<v Speaker 2>get into stable coins in a few years, let alone

593
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.320
<v Speaker 2>a few I mean, let alone a few months. This

594
00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:39.840
<v Speaker 2>is something that would take that they weren't able to

595
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:44.440
<v Speaker 2>do in a few years. So they're scared. They're scared,

596
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:51.320
<v Speaker 2>but I don't think they'll I think that they I

597
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:54.800
<v Speaker 2>think they're kind of screwed, to be honest, Like it's

598
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:57.039
<v Speaker 2>it's just gonna happen regardless, you know.

599
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:02.039
<v Speaker 1>Well to your point, I mean, look, they could bump

600
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.800
<v Speaker 1>up the interests for consumers to compete that way, but

601
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:08.800
<v Speaker 1>we know that they probably won't. But with their stable coins,

602
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:12.280
<v Speaker 1>like you said that maybe years away, maybe would they

603
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:14.000
<v Speaker 1>with the Clarity Act pass and I saw I think

604
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.119
<v Speaker 1>it was David Sachs said this morning, you know, we

605
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.679
<v Speaker 1>could see a lot of mergers and acquisitions and and

606
00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:21.599
<v Speaker 1>things like that. Maybe the banks go buy some of

607
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:26.360
<v Speaker 1>these stable coin companies and that could fast track them.

608
00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:28.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they could, but I think that you know a

609
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:31.800
<v Speaker 2>lot of these companies are getting quite sizable. Sure it'd

610
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:36.519
<v Speaker 2>be cool to see, Yeah, maybe Coinbase by patchwork of

611
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:44.599
<v Speaker 2>like regional banks and just yeah offer services through them.

612
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, they're already working with like P and C, City

613
00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:51.960
<v Speaker 1>JP Morgan. So they've they've really got their position really well,

614
00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:55.599
<v Speaker 1>and they can white label some of their services. So yeah,

615
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:57.719
<v Speaker 1>it would makes sense for them to purchase somebody's banks.

616
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:02.719
<v Speaker 1>You know, do you are you anticipating or we see

617
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:04.559
<v Speaker 1>a lot of IPOs this year, you know, depending on

618
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:05.280
<v Speaker 1>the market condition.

619
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:09.840
<v Speaker 2>We're seeing on tomorrow, who's going to public? But oh

620
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:10.880
<v Speaker 2>there's yet another one.

621
00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:13.440
<v Speaker 1>Oh boy, I didn't even realize you were going tomorrow.

622
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, New York Soccer Exchange. Oh no way, yeah, wow.

623
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.000
<v Speaker 1>I some reason I thought that was in February. I

624
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:21.519
<v Speaker 1>don't know why.

625
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh February's right around the corner.

626
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:28.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, wow, Yeah, I'm hoping, you know, with someone

627
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:31.440
<v Speaker 1>them looking to go public that I know rallies the

628
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:34.920
<v Speaker 1>market up a little bit, and anythink I think that.

629
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:38.119
<v Speaker 2>I think we'll see more. I think more we're going

630
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:46.960
<v Speaker 2>to hit the market. I mean, you've got securitize this back.

631
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:52.880
<v Speaker 2>There's you know who else is looking cracking. I think

632
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.400
<v Speaker 2>was looking Ripple was looking too.

633
00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:59.559
<v Speaker 1>There's talks about it, but they keep saying they're not.

634
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:01.840
<v Speaker 2>They're like, we don't want to do it now. But

635
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:04.280
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a huge there's probably at least ten

636
00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:08.360
<v Speaker 2>more that in the short to medium term will tap

637
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:13.679
<v Speaker 2>public markets, right, and that's just further further meshing of

638
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:14.760
<v Speaker 2>the of the two.

639
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:18.920
<v Speaker 1>It'll be interesting to say, yeah, what are your thoughts

640
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:21.519
<v Speaker 1>on a tokenization market. There's a big race there, all

641
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:24.280
<v Speaker 1>these stratify institutions looking to get equities or whatever it

642
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:24.840
<v Speaker 1>is on chain.

643
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:26.679
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people don't understand that. You have to

644
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:31.239
<v Speaker 2>think that it's really the asset, right, Like, tokenization doesn't

645
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:35.800
<v Speaker 2>make an asset better, you know. And so what we've

646
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:40.760
<v Speaker 2>seen with a lot of these plays is for funds

647
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:45.199
<v Speaker 2>that these financial institutions are having a hard time selling,

648
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:52.519
<v Speaker 2>they'll typically partner with a crypto firm to tokenize it

649
00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:56.440
<v Speaker 2>for the marketing and brand exposure of the underpinning blockchain

650
00:39:56.599 --> 00:40:01.719
<v Speaker 2>so that they can then push it. Now it's kind

651
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:04.039
<v Speaker 2>of lipstick on a pig type deal.

652
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:08.000
<v Speaker 1>For now, for now, okay, for now.

653
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:10.519
<v Speaker 2>And that's at least my opinion. I'm not sure there

654
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:12.639
<v Speaker 2>are people who would disagree with me that work at

655
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.679
<v Speaker 2>a lot of these companies, but that's the impression that

656
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:20.400
<v Speaker 2>I have. And you know, it's not going to really

657
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:24.679
<v Speaker 2>stick until everything's end to end, because right now it's

658
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:30.360
<v Speaker 2>sort of just you know, it's it's siloed, right, like

659
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:32.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, you think of something like biddle. It's like,

660
00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:36.000
<v Speaker 2>really just this one product that's engaging with like one

661
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:38.719
<v Speaker 2>type of one type of client, which is really a

662
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:43.920
<v Speaker 2>crypto client that wants to be able to seamlessly engage

663
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:50.000
<v Speaker 2>between crypto and treasuries. But it's not like you can

664
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:57.840
<v Speaker 2>operate throughout the you can't. You can't operate end to

665
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:02.400
<v Speaker 2>end throughout black rock on chain, right, And until that happens,

666
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:08.039
<v Speaker 2>things are kind of just slightly insignificant. Pointing is something

667
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:08.920
<v Speaker 2>more significant.

668
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:14.159
<v Speaker 1>M I appreciate that perspective because we only get one

669
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:15.679
<v Speaker 1>view of it where it's like, oh my gosh, you

670
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:17.639
<v Speaker 1>know this is all going. But it's good to have

671
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:20.559
<v Speaker 1>a balance view. And to your point, as you said that,

672
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:22.119
<v Speaker 1>I was thinking, yeah, I can see how some of

673
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:24.920
<v Speaker 1>these things are like marketing and just hey, our chain

674
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:28.760
<v Speaker 1>is being used by this institution to tokenize X. But okay,

675
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:32.159
<v Speaker 1>what's happening after We don't usually hear the results or

676
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:36.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, the performance metrics. We just hear it got

677
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:43.480
<v Speaker 1>built on whatever. Yeah, yeah, exactly interesting. So Frank, what's

678
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:48.159
<v Speaker 1>on your roadmap for this year man GSR and well, yeah, I.

679
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Mean it's been well, there's a lot of work to do,

680
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:57.639
<v Speaker 2>work to be done, you know, there's a lot we

681
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:01.519
<v Speaker 2>can do to further support the client and the portfolio.

682
00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:09.320
<v Speaker 2>I think providing them with a platform through the podcast

683
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:13.039
<v Speaker 2>is one vehicle because there is a lot of noise.

684
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:15.400
<v Speaker 2>I think this is the biggest challenge that founders in

685
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:19.360
<v Speaker 2>this space space is the fact that you're competing for

686
00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:24.480
<v Speaker 2>airtime with malania Coin and driump coin, and so you know,

687
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:27.440
<v Speaker 2>when I think about what we can do in twenty

688
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:38.039
<v Speaker 2>twenty six is to help the client kind of peak

689
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:43.440
<v Speaker 2>out through the noise, and so we'll continue to grow that,

690
00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.320
<v Speaker 2>We'll continue to grow the platform and a lot of

691
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:51.440
<v Speaker 2>travel this year for me, which yeah, I try to

692
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:55.000
<v Speaker 2>take a break in twenty twenty five, but twenty twenty

693
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:56.920
<v Speaker 2>six shaping up to be busy.

694
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:01.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, hopefully the more cold dude, Well, you want to

695
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:02.679
<v Speaker 1>get out of New York, go go sound you gotta

696
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:03.679
<v Speaker 1>get to the Caymans.

697
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:06.719
<v Speaker 2>It's freezing out.

698
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:13.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Plus snow. More snow. Well, I'm

699
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:14.920
<v Speaker 1>in a bit in Jersey, so I get more snow.

700
00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.239
<v Speaker 1>It's lots more shoveling I feel like I've been shoveling

701
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:17.719
<v Speaker 1>every day.

702
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Make sure to leave your heat out, dude, my heat

703
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:25.719
<v Speaker 2>bell for my house. My gas bill. I guess don't

704
00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:28.159
<v Speaker 2>put this in the show, but it was five hundred dollars.

705
00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Is that normal? My house is drafted? I guess I

706
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:33.400
<v Speaker 2>was asking.

707
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:37.920
<v Speaker 1>I was like, well, it depends on the size of

708
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:38.320
<v Speaker 1>your house.

709
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:43.480
<v Speaker 2>It's huge. No, I'm just it's reasonable. It's reasonably size.

710
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:45.840
<v Speaker 1>All right, Frank, I got some wrap up questions here.

711
00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:48.480
<v Speaker 1>For first, if you could create your own metaverse, what

712
00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:49.239
<v Speaker 1>would the theme be?

713
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:53.880
<v Speaker 2>The theme would be very low gas bills.

714
00:43:57.320 --> 00:43:58.840
<v Speaker 1>No one knows Star Wars no.

715
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:03.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh, if I had a oh, probably Sopranos themes I've

716
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:06.760
<v Speaker 2>been I'm just restarted. Oh wow, yeah, I'm on episode

717
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:10.039
<v Speaker 2>four of season season one. Maybe I.

718
00:44:11.960 --> 00:44:15.559
<v Speaker 1>Have to rewatch that myself. Rapid fire questions. Favorite food.

719
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:24.400
<v Speaker 2>It's a good question. I mean, you know what I've

720
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:28.360
<v Speaker 2>been into, like the past six months, just like my default.

721
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:30.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm gonna tell you.

722
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Tacos. I've been obsessed with tacos. Uh Santos in the

723
00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:46.039
<v Speaker 2>in the city. Uh do loves tacos? All right, what's

724
00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:47.840
<v Speaker 2>that one that's like everywhere there's one down here and

725
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:52.960
<v Speaker 2>find I loves Tacos Tacoma or Tacoby's, Okay. I used

726
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.559
<v Speaker 2>to go there a lot back in the day for

727
00:44:55.639 --> 00:45:00.760
<v Speaker 2>the burritos. And then I was in Mexico over the holidays.

728
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:04.119
<v Speaker 2>I was too really were Oh I was in Tuloom

729
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:05.519
<v Speaker 2>It's so funny.

730
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:08.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah for New Years other it was there for Christmas.

731
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or you just there for Christmas.

732
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:14.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. We we went from the twentieth through to twenty

733
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:19.800
<v Speaker 1>sixth at SLS player and then we went to like

734
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:22.480
<v Speaker 1>Islam Muies took the ferry over drove.

735
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:25.559
<v Speaker 2>Did you do you know about this train that they have,

736
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:27.079
<v Speaker 2>the Maya Trained Maya.

737
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:29.159
<v Speaker 1>I think my wife had mentioned it to me.

738
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:32.280
<v Speaker 2>It's sick. It's really clean and fast.

739
00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:33.920
<v Speaker 1>I checked that out.

740
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's cool man Tacos. Yeah, yeah, just cause recently too.

741
00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:40.559
<v Speaker 2>It was never a.

742
00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:44.199
<v Speaker 1>Big doco guy meant the favorite musician or band.

743
00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's a good question. I mean I feel like

744
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:53.480
<v Speaker 2>being from New Jersey, like Bruce Springsteon hard not hard

745
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:54.239
<v Speaker 2>not to pick him.

746
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:56.400
<v Speaker 1>Sure, Oh, favorite book?

747
00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:03.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, I like this probably isn't my favorite book,

748
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:14.400
<v Speaker 2>but I mostly read like biographies. Nonfiction is my preference.

749
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:18.880
<v Speaker 2>But probably the book I read quickest would have been

750
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:28.519
<v Speaker 2>The Bad Blood Bad right about there there in Us.

751
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:34.679
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah right, it's bad Blood the Elizabeth Holmes.

752
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:38.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, but when you said bad Blood, I thought

753
00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:39.360
<v Speaker 1>of Taylor Chef.

754
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:42.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because I don't think it's actually bad blood. It's

755
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:45.199
<v Speaker 2>something else, but that that one.

756
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:47.320
<v Speaker 1>And when you're not working, Frank, what are you doing

757
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:47.719
<v Speaker 1>for fun?

758
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:53.159
<v Speaker 2>I work out a lot, you know, like most days,

759
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:54.960
<v Speaker 2>that's fun.

760
00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:55.960
<v Speaker 1>I love to cook.

761
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:00.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't make tacos though, that's like an exclusively for

762
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:03.760
<v Speaker 2>that going out endeavor for me. I've made tacos once.

763
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:07.159
<v Speaker 2>I I went to Costco and I got probably ten

764
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:12.559
<v Speaker 2>pounds of pork shoulder and I cooked that let's marinade

765
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:19.360
<v Speaker 2>two three days or something, and I made like sixty

766
00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:22.559
<v Speaker 2>seventy tacos over the holidays.

767
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:23.000
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

768
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:28.880
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I like to cook. I like to work out.

769
00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:39.159
<v Speaker 1>Tweet Yeah, fintech Frank, Yeah, follow follow Frank, Frank pleasure.

770
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:41.199
<v Speaker 1>Thanks glad we finally got around to do it.

771
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:42.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we'll see again soon. Yeah.

772
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:45.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well we'll bump each other at a conference or something,

773
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:49.639
<v Speaker 1>because I hope so this year we see a rally, Frank,

774
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:52.320
<v Speaker 1>we get some life back in this market. Yeah, Hi,

775
00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:54.800
<v Speaker 1>thank you man, thanks for having me. Thank you so

776
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:58.039
<v Speaker 1>much for tuning in. Please hit the like button subscribe

777
00:47:58.079 --> 00:47:59.719
<v Speaker 1>if you haven't as yet. If you're listening on a

778
00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:03.199
<v Speaker 1>pod cast platform such as Spotify or Apple, please follow

779
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:05.760
<v Speaker 1>and leave a five star rating. Thank you so much,