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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
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Speaker 4: That's nature box dot com slash true Murder. Susan Berman
Speaker 4: grew up in Las Vegas luxury as the daughter of
Speaker 4: Davy Berman, casino mogul and notorious mafia leader. After her
Speaker 4: father died, she learned about his mob connections. Susan then
Speaker 4: dedicated her life to learning about Vegas and its underworld chiefs.
Speaker 4: Her life took a bizarre turn in nineteen eighty two
Speaker 4: when Kathy Durst, the wife of her good friend Robert Durst,
Speaker 4: mysteriously disappeared. Durst was a prime suspect, but the case
Speaker 4: was never solved. After the Kathy Durst case was reopened,
Speaker 4: the DA was about to question Susan Berman about what
Speaker 4: she knew regarding a phone call Kathy supposedly made to
Speaker 4: her medical school dean saying she was sick. It wouldn't
Speaker 4: be at school. That call was placed today after she
Speaker 4: had vanished. Soon after the Kathy Durst case was reopened,
Speaker 4: Susan Berman was found dead, shot in the back of
Speaker 4: the head. No forced entry, no robbery, nothing missing from
Speaker 4: her home. The book covers what led to Durst's capture.
Speaker 4: Police records placed him in California at the time of
Speaker 4: his good friend Susan Berman's murder. HBO filmmakers discovered a
Speaker 4: letter unknown before written by Durst to Susan, a dead
Speaker 4: on match to the cadaver letter police say the killer
Speaker 4: sent before Susan's body was discovered. The book that we're
Speaker 4: featuring this evening is Murder of a Mafia Daughter, The
Speaker 4: story behind the suspicions Robert Durst murdered Susan Berman with
Speaker 4: my special guest journalist and author Kathy Scott. Welcome back
Speaker 4: to the program and thank you for agreeing to this
Speaker 4: interview Kathy.
Speaker 6: Scott, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4: Dan, Well, thank you very much again. Robert Durst is
Speaker 4: making you look good again. So this is fascinating how
Speaker 4: this case stays in the public's attention, always garnering more
Speaker 4: new interest because the story keeps unfolding. Let's get right
Speaker 4: to Susan Berman, because we've got to cover a lot
Speaker 4: of ground here to cover these new developments. So let's
Speaker 4: talk about Susan Berman. And before we talk about how
Speaker 4: Susan Berman met her good friend, Robert Durst, tell us
Speaker 4: a little bit about Susan Berman and growing up in
Speaker 4: the shadow or under her father being Davy Berman. So
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about Susan Berman and her life.
Speaker 6: Our dad started out in Kansas City, New York, places
Speaker 6: like that, as you know, a member of the Mafia
Speaker 6: Jewish mob. Basically he worked for Maya Lansky and he
Speaker 6: was tapped to go into Las Vegas and run the
Speaker 6: skim at the Riviera and later the Flamingo Hotel. And
Speaker 6: in nineteen forty six he moved Susan and her mother, Gladys,
Speaker 6: who was who was a dancer, and they moved lived
Speaker 6: at the Ranchito Hotel, Susan was a year old, and
Speaker 6: she was raised as a Mob royalty and had just
Speaker 6: an incredible life. And you know, the day Bugsy Siegel
Speaker 6: was killed, Davy Berman, Susan's father took over running the
Speaker 6: skim at the filming a hotel, and she just he
Speaker 6: would they would go to Los Angeles and eat at
Speaker 6: the best place and stay at the Beverly Hilton and
Speaker 6: and the bel Air and places like that. And she
Speaker 6: just was a spoiled, very happy little girl. And then
Speaker 6: her father died during surgery when she was twelve, and
Speaker 6: her mother committed suicide the next year when she was thirteen,
Speaker 6: and she went to live with her uncle Chicki, who
Speaker 6: worked for her father but then no longer worked for
Speaker 6: the mob whence he died and he took her home
Speaker 6: to Idaho where his wife and kids were. And then
Speaker 6: Susan went to Chadwick High School with E Liza Minelli
Speaker 6: and you know, Children of Stars, and then went on
Speaker 6: to college. So that's basically Susan. So Susan never got
Speaker 6: over losing her parents and but but went into journalism
Speaker 6: became a writer, right.
Speaker 4: So she's eventually ends up at U c.
Speaker 2: L A.
Speaker 4: In California, and she meets Robert Durst. Tell us about
Speaker 4: Robert Durst and his background before we talk about how
Speaker 4: they Susan and Robert Durst met and how their relationship developed.
Speaker 4: So tell us a little bit about the background of
Speaker 4: Robert Durst.
Speaker 6: Well, Robert Durst is the oldest son to the Durst
Speaker 6: organization and Seymour Durst to you know, build half of Manhattan,
Speaker 6: all the high rises, the early ones, they were built
Speaker 6: by the Durst organization. They're worth in the billions. That's
Speaker 6: with the beat. And he was raised, like Susan, in
Speaker 6: the lap of luxury. And and he lost his mother
Speaker 6: at age seven when she either jumped or fell off
Speaker 6: the roof of their home. And then but Bobby he
Speaker 6: was raised and I call him Bobby Durst because that's
Speaker 6: what Susan called them. But Durst was raised in Scarsdale,
Speaker 6: New York, finest schools, finest prep schools, finest everything. And
Speaker 6: and I slowly went into working for his dad, but
Speaker 6: he did run. He married in nineteen seventy three, I
Speaker 6: believe he married Kathy Durst, who was in medical school.
Speaker 4: And he.
Speaker 6: And then he for a time ran a Vermont health
Speaker 6: food store and then went back because he was tapped
Speaker 6: to one day take over the Durst organization, but Bobby
Speaker 6: wasn't interested. He was quiet in high school. He was
Speaker 6: always sort of an odd ball, whereas his brothers were outgoing,
Speaker 6: his younger brothers, I think he had two of them,
Speaker 6: and Bobby was just all People thought he was quiet,
Speaker 6: but he was you know, still waters run deep, but
Speaker 6: he was quiet and more a mysterious way. I think then,
Speaker 6: you know, you could say sinister too. I mean, I
Speaker 6: think he's sociopathic. I think it started with this childhood.
Speaker 6: So he was raised by a father who was distant,
Speaker 6: so he didn't get the nurturing, you know, at a
Speaker 6: long young age because his mother died. So in that
Speaker 6: way and Susan had had parallel sadness and loss in
Speaker 6: their lives and did it fully mentally and emotionally grow
Speaker 6: the way they should have.
Speaker 4: As well. We want to explain to the dynamic with
Speaker 4: this same or Durst family in that Doors is the oldest,
Speaker 4: his youngest brother is Douglas, and there's a couple other siblings,
Speaker 4: and with reports that at around ten years of age
Speaker 4: they were seeing a psychiatrist for sibling rivalry and they
Speaker 4: noticed some they said, almost schizophrenic tendencies and some disturbing
Speaker 4: characteristics that he had at a very young age. And
Speaker 4: and also how affected he was by his mother's death.
Speaker 6: Wasn't he Yes, he was, And yeah, he and his
Speaker 6: brother never get along. I mean, I come from a
Speaker 6: family of five, trust me, there are lots of fights.
Speaker 6: But but yeah, so I understand the sibling rivals saying
Speaker 6: when you're growing up. But but he he was different.
Speaker 6: Bobby was different, and it was you know, it's interesting
Speaker 6: because it's attorney now it's claiming that he has Aspergers,
Speaker 6: and you know, back then you didn't hear much about aspergers.
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, Bobby Durst is seventy just at
Speaker 6: his seventy second birthday in jail and thank you very much.
Speaker 6: But he So it's interesting as his attorneys latching onto that.
Speaker 6: But so there were you know, back back then, and
Speaker 6: those those li did to grow up the forties to fifties,
Speaker 6: you know, psychiatry was I mean, that's when they were
Speaker 6: still shocking people. So they certainly didn't have a handle
Speaker 6: back then, you know, the psychiatric community and what makes
Speaker 6: people pick necessarily. I mean, it was the same era
Speaker 6: that the Kennedy family, one of the daughters had a
Speaker 6: lobotomy and then they you know, felt bad for the
Speaker 6: rest of the lives that they had done that pure
Speaker 6: because that was one of the treatments. So theirs was
Speaker 6: diagnosed with lots of things, but he was basically showing
Speaker 6: signs very young. If you look at all the symptoms
Speaker 6: and signs of socio paths as being a sociopath, he
Speaker 6: had definitely a personality disorder.
Speaker 4: Just for our audience of what is Asperger syndrome, well Asberger's, I.
Speaker 6: Mean, I worked with somebody who had it, and I've
Speaker 6: got a new friend who's been diagnosed years ago with it.
Speaker 6: Asberger's is a form I believe. I mean, I'm not
Speaker 6: an expert by any mean it's a form of autism.
Speaker 6: But they're very, very functioning, nice people, friendly, don't you know. Sociopaths.
Speaker 6: Sociopaths and and and Asperger's don't go hand in hand.
Speaker 6: So it's an interesting defense if you if I might
Speaker 6: say that, but it's it certainly doesn't excuse anything because
Speaker 6: Asperger people with Aspergers aren't criminals. You know, they don't
Speaker 6: have criminal tendencies anymore than someone who's not diagnosed with Aspergers.
Speaker 6: So I think trying to explain his weirdness and his
Speaker 6: his his his personality disorder, explaining it away with Aspergers
Speaker 6: is quite a stretch, and it's a nice try, but
Speaker 6: I'm not buying it. I think I think he was showing,
Speaker 6: you know. I mean, he wasn't schizophrenic. You know, he
Speaker 6: muttered to himself, but mostly he muttered to himself, even
Speaker 6: as a child and as an adult, because he likes
Speaker 6: to mess with people's minds, and he just does it
Speaker 6: because he thinks it's fun to mess with people. He
Speaker 6: was always a loner, you know, and that is not
Speaker 6: a good sign. He's very intelligent. I could function if
Speaker 6: he wanted to, and then you have on the other hand,
Speaker 6: other side, he's the spoiled brat you know, growing up,
Speaker 6: so why work if you don't have to. So he
Speaker 6: never really poured himself into the Durst organization. And his
Speaker 6: father was hard on him and on the other boys.
Speaker 6: So but they turned out you know, normal, normal can be.
Speaker 6: I mean, no one comes out of life on scathed,
Speaker 6: but you know, but he was a strict father, and
Speaker 6: there's just you know, Dinnett was an outsider, even inside
Speaker 6: his own family.
Speaker 4: Now Durst went to UCLA and he was studying economics
Speaker 4: of course, to potentially be able to take over the
Speaker 4: family dynasty the industry, and that's where he met Susan Berman.
Speaker 4: So talk about how these people met and how they
Speaker 4: became fast friends, what do they have in common, and
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about their relationship.
Speaker 6: Okay, I believe he went to Lehigh University for his
Speaker 6: undergraduate and he he got a master's degree, and he
Speaker 6: went to u c l A for his doctorate or
Speaker 6: his master's I'm sorry, I can't remember which it's in
Speaker 6: the book, because I did call the universities and confirm
Speaker 6: his degrees. He didn't finish at u c l A.
Speaker 6: Het he met Susan when she was an undergrad going
Speaker 6: for journalism before she transferred to UC Berkeley, and they
Speaker 6: met in the quad, the student quad, and just hit
Speaker 6: it off immediately. He was a year or two older
Speaker 6: than her, and immediately they had this bond, always platonic.
Speaker 6: Neither one of them, you know, neither was interested, you know,
Speaker 6: romantically in the other. They had instantly a background of
Speaker 6: wealth being raised very well, and I mean she was
Speaker 6: a trust fund kid basically, you know, because for the
Speaker 6: rest of her lives, she lived off of well, until
Speaker 6: she was thirty, she lived off of mob money and
Speaker 6: because of her father's interest in hotels, and so she
Speaker 6: was you know, she came from wealth. They both lost
Speaker 6: he lost one parent, she lost two. They had this
Speaker 6: instant asinity and this instant connection, and they became lifelong friends.
Speaker 6: She called him the brother she never had.
Speaker 4: Now, when she decides to go into journalism and to
Speaker 4: be a writer, tell us what Susan Berman writes about specifically.
Speaker 6: Well, initially she was a sort of a features writer.
Speaker 6: She went to work for the San Francisco Examiner and
Speaker 6: then wrote, and then she freelanced too. You know, she
Speaker 6: didn't like going to work and being you know, stuck
Speaker 6: day by day having to go to a job. You know,
Speaker 6: she likes she liked freelancing more. And straight out of
Speaker 6: journalism school at UC Berkeley, she got hired by the
Speaker 6: San Francisco Examiner and became a features writer then. But
Speaker 6: she didn't like just being a regular reporter along with
Speaker 6: everybody else. You know, she aspired to do bigger things,
Speaker 6: and so she started freelancing on the side while she
Speaker 6: was still at that paper, and she wrote for I
Speaker 6: think it was the City paper, and she wrote a
Speaker 6: story that was titled how to Get Laid in San Francisco,
Speaker 6: and it was the talk of the town and it
Speaker 6: went viral as things could go back then, you know,
Speaker 6: the old fashioned way, and you know, other newspapers wrote
Speaker 6: about her, and she was always in the society column
Speaker 6: after that. And she was and then Bobby had, you know,
Speaker 6: had left school and he was back in New York
Speaker 6: and working for his father, and so Susan wanted to,
Speaker 6: you know, be a journalist in New York, and she
Speaker 6: got hired by New York Magazine and she was she
Speaker 6: was there when Nicholas Polegy was a writer there. That's
Speaker 6: who she worked with. She went and moved to a
Speaker 6: studio apartment on Beakman Place, which is a real high
Speaker 6: end place that she was just in a little studio
Speaker 6: and and that was what the late seventies and uh,
Speaker 6: you know, mid to late seventies. And she lived in
Speaker 6: New York for a few years and Robert Durstin introduced
Speaker 6: her to the literati and you know, all the movers
Speaker 6: and shakers and people in the book industry, music industry.
Speaker 6: And she used to eat at the best restaurants, Elanes
Speaker 6: and whatnot. And she wrote a book while she was
Speaker 6: there called Easy Street, Writing to Answer Your Question, Writing
Speaker 6: about Las Vegas, and she wrote about Las Vegas until
Speaker 6: her death.
Speaker 4: Now Easy Street was commercially and critically accepted at that time,
Speaker 4: so it let her continue with her lavish lifestyle. Basically, no, but.
Speaker 6: She got it very large. It was three it's off
Speaker 6: the top of my head, but it was like three
Speaker 6: hundred and eighty five thousand dollars or something and advance
Speaker 6: for with the movie rights, and she was that was
Speaker 6: very exciting. She was on the Today Show for the book.
Speaker 6: It was very critically positively reviewed, and she was high,
Speaker 6: you know, high in her game, and she didn't want
Speaker 6: to work at New York Magazine. By that time, she
Speaker 6: was getting paranoid and had phobias, and one of them
Speaker 6: was the fear of heights. And she didn't like working
Speaker 6: in anything off the ground, anything above the first floor,
Speaker 6: and she was always afraid she'd get too close to
Speaker 6: a window and fall out. And so she was battling,
Speaker 6: you know, her phobias at that point. And then in
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty two, if you want to take the listeners
Speaker 6: to that is you know she was there at the
Speaker 6: time that Robert Dur's wife, Kathy disappeared.
Speaker 4: Now, what was the relationship between the three of them.
Speaker 4: She was friends with Kathy as well as Bobby. Tell
Speaker 4: us about that a little bit.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Kathy liked her. Yeah, they had mutual friends. I mean,
Speaker 6: Robert durstn't have I mean, his wife had a lot
Speaker 6: of friends, and Robert had a lot of acquaintances. And
Speaker 6: then Susan because she was journalist and you know, a
Speaker 6: top magazine, she met a lot of people. I mean
Speaker 6: they hung around with Lorraine Newman from Saturday Night Live
Speaker 6: and just a lot of big name people, you know,
Speaker 6: in the music and literature industry and journalism. And Bobby
Speaker 6: just sort of hung out with Susan, you know, at
Speaker 6: first she hung out with him, and then it became
Speaker 6: he was just always invited and she But Kathy was
Speaker 6: part of the circle, and she wasn't. She wasn't she
Speaker 6: wasn't Susan's friend necessarily, but because she was married to Robert,
Speaker 6: you know, she was her friend. But Kathy liked Susan.
Speaker 6: She never felt threatened or anything by her. But the
Speaker 6: friend said that he was always closer to Susan than
Speaker 6: he was to his own wife. And then they're having problems.
Speaker 6: She was in her fourty year of college. He was
Speaker 6: becoming abusive and she wanted to divorce. And then she
Speaker 6: was planning on divorcing as soon as she was finished
Speaker 6: with school, and she only had, you know, a few
Speaker 6: months to go, and then you know, she turned up
Speaker 6: missing and they haven't ever found her remains or her
Speaker 6: she she was declared, I think, I.
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Speaker 6: Five years ago and then ten years after she disappeared,
Speaker 6: DR divorced her. Let's get words, borister, even though she
Speaker 6: would declared dead.
Speaker 4: Let's go back, because this is the complicated part of
Speaker 4: this is the relationship Susan has with Bobby Durst and
Speaker 4: how she becomes his media spokesperson, being a lazy liaison
Speaker 4: between media and the police. And so that's how close
Speaker 4: we are as friends.
Speaker 6: No, yeah, we get a big solid yeah.
Speaker 4: Okay, we'll explain how that really works. And what exactly
Speaker 4: did she convey to the media and police as this
Speaker 4: go between on behalf of Robert Durst at that time.
Speaker 6: Well, there's didn't report his wife's missing for five days.
Speaker 6: And they lived they lived in Westchester County, you know,
Speaker 6: in New York, but they had an apartment in the
Speaker 6: city and Kathy and Kathy had argued and she was
Speaker 6: at a friend's house having at a party, and it
Speaker 6: was a Sunday evening and she said she had to
Speaker 6: get home. Durst was mad at her, and she was
Speaker 6: going to take the train to the city to spend
Speaker 6: the night in their Manhattan apartment so she could get
Speaker 6: up the next day and go to classes. Well, she
Speaker 6: nobody ever saw her again after she left the party,
Speaker 6: and then Durst didn't report her missing for five days,
Speaker 6: and then he didn't do it out of his own
Speaker 6: county and Westchester. He went to Manhattan. I think that
Speaker 6: was by design. He's a cagy guy. He wanted to
Speaker 6: put in in a different jurisdiction, and especially in the
Speaker 6: jurisdiction where his father is a very powerful, well known
Speaker 6: man who practically runs Manhattan. So they accepted durs explanation,
Speaker 6: including an alibi at certain times, which he lied, and
Speaker 6: he admitted on you know, a recent documentary, The Jinx,
Speaker 6: which is all about him, that just aired, that he
Speaker 6: had made that up. He admitted lying, you know, while
Speaker 6: he was on being taped. But so after, because of
Speaker 6: his name and because of his family was the media
Speaker 6: in New York just took off with the story. So
Speaker 6: he didn't want to talk to the media, so Susan
Speaker 6: became his spokesman. And there was also a telephone call
Speaker 6: the next morning after Kathy disappeared, supposedly from a woman
Speaker 6: saying she was Kathy Durist calling the dean of a
Speaker 6: medical school that she wanted to be into classes that
Speaker 6: week that day. Who in college calls the dean? You know, colleagues,
Speaker 6: kids don't have to call in and if you talk
Speaker 6: to anybody, it would be a professor to find out
Speaker 6: how to make up your work. So it was an
Speaker 6: odd phone call. The doorman couldn't place Kathy Jursey in Manhattan.
Speaker 6: Nobody had seen her in Manhattan, but the Manhattan you know,
Speaker 6: the New York PD didn't pursue the case at all,
Speaker 6: and it just sort of died down that Susan. Everybody
Speaker 6: believes that because she was the spokesperson. The wide belief
Speaker 6: is that she knew too much, and she knew too
Speaker 6: much for a very very long time.
Speaker 4: How could it be that she was able to be
Speaker 4: the spokesperson. I mean, this is the thing. I just
Speaker 4: don't have an explanation for. How does she be have
Speaker 4: credibility as a spokesperson just because she's his friend and
Speaker 4: she's a journalist. Is that why they gave her this
Speaker 4: ability to be spokesperson rather than having him answer these
Speaker 4: hard questions.
Speaker 6: Well, he gave it, he gave it out. It's just
Speaker 6: like anybody, you know. You look at the Freddie Gray
Speaker 6: family right now, the guy who was killed in Baltimore
Speaker 6: when he was in custody of the police, and it's
Speaker 6: the family. There's a stepfather who's now coming out front
Speaker 6: and speaking it's usually a family member. She was very
Speaker 6: close to him. She was one of his best friends.
Speaker 6: So if not his best friend, so it's easy to
Speaker 6: say I'm his best friend and he's asked me to
Speaker 6: and they accept it, you know, they just accept anybody
Speaker 6: who can talk to them about it. I think frankly,
Speaker 6: he just didn't want to, you know, he was just
Speaker 6: waiting for it to go away. And it did. And
Speaker 6: interestingly enough, that was in eighty two, and Susan her
Speaker 6: book had come out in eighty one, I believe, and
Speaker 6: then that was probably around the time of the film
Speaker 6: Bill and then that fell through because Susan was difficult
Speaker 6: to work with and she wanted to write the screenplay
Speaker 6: and so the movie just pulled. It just died and
Speaker 6: it never never was, uh, you know, filmed, and and
Speaker 6: then in eighty four season left New York and I
Speaker 6: think it all was just I think Robert Durst changed
Speaker 6: after that, and he was he was under suspicion by
Speaker 6: Westchester County, you know, for committing murder, but they didn't
Speaker 6: have a body, they didn't have any evidence, they didn't
Speaker 6: work with Manhattan PD. Nobody really pursued it. But he
Speaker 6: was always considered a present of interest, and I think
Speaker 6: it changed him. And then she left and went to
Speaker 6: la to become a screenwriter, which never happened now with this,
Speaker 6: but she stayed in touch with Bobby.
Speaker 4: Of course, what was the alibi that she provided for
Speaker 4: Bobby Durst? Can you say?
Speaker 6: Well? What he said he had He had left and
Speaker 6: went to an ever's house and had to drink with him,
Speaker 6: and no police didn't even question him about whether he
Speaker 6: did that. He'd taken his wife to the train station.
Speaker 6: In fact, when everybody knows he was out of town
Speaker 6: because there were phone calls made from it's called ship Bottom,
Speaker 6: New York or ship Bottom, New Jersey, I think it is,
Speaker 6: and it's a little distance from his Westchester house, and
Speaker 6: he was actually had called the Durst organization. Later when
Speaker 6: people looked into the records and everything, they found out
Speaker 6: the police that he had someone had made phone calls
Speaker 6: from ship Bottom using a calling collect and the only
Speaker 6: one who could do that from there would have been
Speaker 6: Bobby Durst, and so they placed him there. So he
Speaker 6: obviously wasn't home, wasn't having a drink with his neighbor,
Speaker 6: but they never called the neighbor, So the neighbor appears
Speaker 6: on the documentary, He goes, yeah, no, I never had
Speaker 6: to drink with him. But Susan's alibi was more. Hers
Speaker 6: was more to place Kathy in New York going to school,
Speaker 6: making a phone call from Manhattan to the school to
Speaker 6: put her there in town, to take it out of
Speaker 6: Westchester and put it into Manhattan where they were not
Speaker 6: pursuing it. So it was, you know, and he was
Speaker 6: just and then he didn't report his wife missing for
Speaker 6: five which is odd. Yeah. Yeah, now it's all convoluted,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 4: Now was in many cases. Is there another woman in
Speaker 4: the offing?
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, eventually Deborah what is her last name, Cataract. Yes,
Speaker 6: she's a pricey, well known rilter who befriends him in
Speaker 6: the eighties eighty five or something and becomes romantically involved
Speaker 6: with him at some point. But so you figure, okay,
Speaker 6: if you're backtracking, you go, okay, nineteen eighty two, there's
Speaker 6: a missing person, probably a murder. Then you go two thousand,
Speaker 6: there's a murder with Susan Berman. Then you go you
Speaker 6: fast forward to two thousand and two and there's a
Speaker 6: murder of in Galveston Bay, and in between, in between
Speaker 6: Susan and Galveston Bay. This Deborah Charlton, I mean, I
Speaker 6: think actually he married her in at some point around
Speaker 6: Christmas time and around the time Susan was murdered, and
Speaker 6: he and he did it because he was he was
Speaker 6: he was on the land because the police had leaked, unfortunately,
Speaker 6: they had leaked that they were interested and it was
Speaker 6: around November of two thousand. They were interested in talking
Speaker 6: to durst Uh, to Susan about out what she knew
Speaker 6: way back in nineteen eighty two about the Kathy durthk
Speaker 6: case and her disappearance, and it came out in a
Speaker 6: magazine and there's bolted left the state, went to New Orleans,
Speaker 6: went to Galveston Bay, you know, went under cover or
Speaker 6: women's clothing, got a three hundred dollars apartment apartment next
Speaker 6: door to Morris Black in this rundown apartment building in
Speaker 6: Galveston Bay and tried to live in cognito and all
Speaker 6: the while Susan, you know, was trying to get in
Speaker 6: touch with him and she couldn't. This is before so
Speaker 6: that came out about October November, and Susan was killed
Speaker 6: on December twenty third, and you know, but he had
Speaker 6: a house in San Francisco, and you know, he was
Speaker 6: always traveling, living someplace else, So he was traveling to
Speaker 6: San Francisco too, and nobody even knew it.
Speaker 4: You know, let's talk about not until later. Let's talk
Speaker 4: about the district attorney. What is the evidence or who
Speaker 4: is the witness? Or tell us what spurs spurns the
Speaker 4: the district attorney to reopen the case and specifically want
Speaker 4: to interview Susan Berman. As as we mentioned in the
Speaker 4: introduction about that phone call supposedly made after a day
Speaker 4: after the disappearance. So tell us what spurns this refocus
Speaker 4: on Susan Berman.
Speaker 6: So is a detective. It with friends of Kathy Durst,
Speaker 6: a couple of friends who kept hounding the police department
Speaker 6: in west Chester, telling them, you've got to you know,
Speaker 6: here's the evidence. They were going through his trash, they
Speaker 6: found notes. I mean, they were trying to do everything
Speaker 6: they could. I mean the police didn't even go into
Speaker 6: Bobby Durst's house until years later. He had fuld it
Speaker 6: in the house he shared with Kathy Durst, and they
Speaker 6: didn't do it anything. You know, there was a pond
Speaker 6: that was frozen, but in ship Bottom you could break
Speaker 6: through and that's where everybody thinks she was done. But
Speaker 6: they dragged they dragged some pawns at some some lake
Speaker 6: at some point years later. But so he he was,
Speaker 6: he was, you know, it all died down and then
Speaker 6: it lit up. It was his name was Bchera, detective.
Speaker 6: The Chera got fired up because of the friends saying,
Speaker 6: you know, you've got to chase this case down, and
Speaker 6: you need to talk to Susan Berman because she was
Speaker 6: the spokesperson and his best friend and if anybody knew anything,
Speaker 6: it would be Susan. And so they contacted Susan. And
Speaker 6: but what they did what leaked out, was that it
Speaker 6: leaked out to the media and then it became public.
Speaker 6: And then Dursk got, you know, tipped off that they
Speaker 6: wanted to talk to Susan and they had already contacted her,
Speaker 6: but she hadn't returned their calls, so they never had
Speaker 6: a chance to talk to Susan. And I think whatever
Speaker 6: she knew, you know, died with her in the grave.
Speaker 6: So then he was he freaked out and was on
Speaker 6: the lamb. And then he had told she had told
Speaker 6: friends that Robert Durst had called her and said he
Speaker 6: was going to come and visit. He was going to
Speaker 6: be in California and northern Nevada, in northern California, northern
Speaker 6: California at his house. He had a condo and a
Speaker 6: house up there, and that he was going to come
Speaker 6: down and visit her. And I think he did and
Speaker 6: he killed her.
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Speaker 4: When we last left off, Kathy, we were speaking about
Speaker 4: all of the evidence surrounding Bobby Durst in terms of
Speaker 4: connection to Susan Berman's murder, in terms of afterwards, where
Speaker 4: he is you say, is on the lamb. Let's go
Speaker 4: back to the actual murder itself. And because again police
Speaker 4: like you have mentioned a couple times, are not so eager,
Speaker 4: not so diligent, not so anxious to go after Bobby Durst.
Speaker 4: So tell us about Susan Berman's murder and how anyone
Speaker 4: discovers that she's actually been killed and win.
Speaker 6: She well December sometime December denied of December twenty second,
Speaker 6: between nine pm and the morning of December twenty third,
Speaker 6: because their dogs were running loose in the front yard
Speaker 6: and then the neighbors heard the dogs barking the night before,
Speaker 6: which could have been they were barking at Durst. So
Speaker 6: on the twenty second, she had gone out to dinner
Speaker 6: with a friend and out to the show and got
Speaker 6: home somewhere around nine thirty ten, nine o'clock something like that,
Speaker 6: and that person was interviewed, of course, inclared, So Susan
Speaker 6: was paranoid. She never in a million years would have
Speaker 6: opened her door to anybody, so it had to be
Speaker 6: someone she knew. And she was killed with a nine
Speaker 6: millimeter single gunshot wound to the back of her head
Speaker 6: as she was walking through a hallway to her spare room,
Speaker 6: which is where she had three small dogs, and she
Speaker 6: had and two of them didn't get along since she
Speaker 6: would have to create one or the other, and they
Speaker 6: were in that spare room where she would create them.
Speaker 6: And she was walking into that spare room, so she
Speaker 6: didn't know what was coming. She didn't know she was
Speaker 6: about to be shot, and her body, curious was turned
Speaker 6: over because you know, when you're shot in the back,
Speaker 6: they had there's a little bit of recoil, but you
Speaker 6: fall forward, and and she was turned over in an
Speaker 6: unusual position, not a natural falling position. Uh. And they
Speaker 6: pull a blood and so the next door neighbors. The
Speaker 6: next morning, I interviewed the neighbors, and especially the one
Speaker 6: next door. He's the doctor, and he saw them out loose,
Speaker 6: and and Bennet at Canyon Road, where she lived on
Speaker 6: the border of Los Angeles and Beverly Hills, was heavily traffic,
Speaker 6: no sidewalks or anything, and just fast traffic. I was
Speaker 6: just there recently, and and so the do but nobody
Speaker 6: did anything. The neighbors next door noticed as well, and
Speaker 6: the one of the dogs they let come into their house.
Speaker 6: The other neighbors on the other side. So then so
Speaker 6: then mark, uh oh, I'm sorry, I can't remember the
Speaker 6: doctor his name. But the doctor gets up the next
Speaker 6: morning on the twenty fourth, and lo and behold, the
Speaker 6: dogs are out again. So he walks over talk to
Speaker 6: the neighbors on the other side because it was unusual
Speaker 6: to see these dogs out, and they noticed that to
Speaker 6: her gate, her gate is open and her back door
Speaker 6: is a jar, which means that the killer went out
Speaker 6: the back way. I think it was parked up the
Speaker 6: street where you can park, and the walked in in
Speaker 6: the cover of night, you know, on the twenty second,
Speaker 6: and then they both people called police, and that was around.
Speaker 6: Police didn't get their turn around just before noon on
Speaker 6: New Year's Eve Day, so you figure the Wheelshire. The
Speaker 6: Wheelshire LAPD station responded detectives, but they didn't call homicide.
Speaker 6: And there was a poster above Susan Susan's mantle that
Speaker 6: wanted poster for her father from the nineteen twenty He
Speaker 6: wanted for murder and they figured it was a mob hit.
Speaker 6: Single gunshot will into the back of they had, so
Speaker 6: they didn't process it like a typical crime scene. And
Speaker 6: I think the holiday had something to do with him.
Speaker 6: They did not call in homicide. Homicide didn't catch the
Speaker 6: case for two and a half weeks. Almost three weeks
Speaker 6: went by, and you know how that is of first
Speaker 6: forty eight hours of course and the most important. And
Speaker 6: then friends called the house looking forward because she didn't
Speaker 6: show up at a dinner Christmas Eve dinner and so
Speaker 6: they were worried about her. Police answered the phone, so
Speaker 6: words started spreading among her family and her cousins and
Speaker 6: her step son, and people started coming to the house.
Speaker 6: So people were just they let them in. So the
Speaker 6: crime scene was like the O. J. Simpson scene where
Speaker 6: there's so many people trampling all over it. So that's
Speaker 6: where that stood. And then Durse was of course gone.
Speaker 4: Now let's let's talk about that with with the prosecution
Speaker 4: just about to interview Susan Berman, and did anybody make
Speaker 4: the connection that Robert Durst might be a person of interest?
Speaker 4: And then we have Yeah, you can tell us about
Speaker 4: the funeral, and of course we see this in the
Speaker 4: in the movies all the time where the police are
Speaker 4: observing the funeral just in case the killer might show up.
Speaker 4: And what's interesting about really good friend that walked her
Speaker 4: down the aisle. Tell us about Robert Durst's non appearance
Speaker 4: at this and also talk about what's very interesting is
Speaker 4: the odd behavior of her manager, Nile Brenner, And.
Speaker 6: Did that yeah, Nile was, Yeah, he was a suspect
Speaker 6: and he was their quasi manager because she never paid
Speaker 6: him and she owed him money and so he waited
Speaker 6: for police to leave and then climbed through her windows
Speaker 6: and you know, their fingerprint everywhere, and he took some
Speaker 6: banks statements, he said he took them, and then he
Speaker 6: returned them later to police. But he was a suspect too,
Speaker 6: but they they didn't search his house for it was
Speaker 6: like two months went by and they searched his house
Speaker 6: and didn't find anything. And and but Durst was he offered,
Speaker 6: he offered to pay for the funeral, and the cousin
Speaker 6: who handled the funeral turned him down on that because
Speaker 6: they they got a sense of I guess he was
Speaker 6: very nice to everybody on the phone. The stepson supported Durst,
Speaker 6: visited him in jail later in Galveston Bay, and you know,
Speaker 6: he was acquitted of that murder based on a weird
Speaker 6: self defense, you know, ploy and it worked. But he
Speaker 6: So there was just and then the landlady. They looked
Speaker 6: at her because she had threatened to kill Susan's dog
Speaker 6: or something. She was like eighty one years old. Susan
Speaker 6: was in the midst of being evicted. She needed money.
Speaker 6: She went to Durst. Durst gave center to twenty five
Speaker 6: thousand dollars checks for a tollow fifty thousand. I think
Speaker 6: he always did it. I don't think he was trying
Speaker 6: to pay her off. Maybe he was trying to pay
Speaker 6: off for silence. But I don't know that she would
Speaker 6: have threatened him. But she was very, very desperate, but
Speaker 6: she couldn't get a hold of him. He was sort
Speaker 6: of incognito and she was frustrated, and Susan would lash
Speaker 6: out at people verbally sometimes, so who knows how that
Speaker 6: conversation with him went. In order to get him and
Speaker 6: ask for money, she had to write a letter to
Speaker 6: the Durst organization and then they got in touch with
Speaker 6: him when he was in Galveston Bay. In the meantime,
Speaker 6: you know, ten months later, he kills his next to
Speaker 6: our neighbor. Chops, I'm probably going ahead too much. It
Speaker 6: chops him up and puts him in little bags and
Speaker 6: he floats up that you know, the body floats up
Speaker 6: in Galveston day.
Speaker 4: How does he end Number three? You talked about him, Yeah, well,
Speaker 4: go ahead, you talk about him being in this little
Speaker 4: flea bit in apartment, which is important because he gets
Speaker 4: bailed because they don't recognize who he is.
Speaker 6: So yeah, they don't, Yeah, they don't recognize him, but
Speaker 6: he's well, you know, he's just I mean they refer
Speaker 6: to Galveston Bay at the end of the road because
Speaker 6: it's actually you know, the road into Galveston Bay ends
Speaker 6: at the bay and it's you know, a small town.
Speaker 6: They don't have a homicide unity. They you know, Durst
Speaker 6: was then he after he killed Norris Black. Then he
Speaker 6: takes off and he goes to Lehigh, Pennsylvania, where he
Speaker 6: graduated from college. He likes to revisit places he used
Speaker 6: to be in, you know, it's interesting. So he goes
Speaker 6: to Lehigh, goes into a drug store. He's got thirty
Speaker 6: five thousand dollars cash in his car, five hundred in
Speaker 6: his pocket, and a nine millimeter gun. Gee that's what
Speaker 6: Susan was killed with in the back of his trunk.
Speaker 6: But he goes into this drug store and steals a
Speaker 6: a band aid, puts it on his mouth of all things,
Speaker 6: above his note, above his lip, and walks out with
Speaker 6: the sandwich and a newspaper and they get him for
Speaker 6: shoplifting and that that's when they arrested him. And someone
Speaker 6: pulled him up in the computer and realized who he was,
Speaker 6: and he lawyered up immediately. But he when asked why
Speaker 6: he sold why he stole this sandwich because I wanted to.
Speaker 6: And I think that just speaks volumes of him, don't
Speaker 6: you know. He thinks he's a bubbies boiled kid do
Speaker 6: whatever money and power. His father, By the way, Seymour Durst,
Speaker 6: had hired an attorney, and that attorney called the LAPD
Speaker 6: and called the DA's office and also wrote a letter
Speaker 6: to the DA's office. Leave him alone, quit questioning he,
Speaker 6: quit trying to interview him, quit calling him. And so
Speaker 6: they did so the power of you know, fear of
Speaker 6: being you know, I don't know, losing your job because
Speaker 6: the high powered person comes along and explains about you
Speaker 6: to your bosses, I don't know. So they backed away
Speaker 6: from him completely, and Susan's case just languaged until twenty
Speaker 6: and twelve when they reinvestigated the LAPD based upon a
Speaker 6: missing girl in San Francisco who was last seen with
Speaker 6: a guy who looked like Robert Durst. The FBI got
Speaker 6: involved because that involved kidnapping because she was seeing getting
Speaker 6: into a car that was like his, and the FBI,
Speaker 6: in concert with the LAPD, opened it reopened the case,
Speaker 6: I think, and then thus the arrest in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 6: So this started in two twelve, two thirteen, and so
Speaker 6: it's not like the Jinks prompted it, you know, it
Speaker 6: was in the in the works, and and but I
Speaker 6: think it speeded up his arrest because you know, as
Speaker 6: you know, the FBI works very slowly when they're investigating things.
Speaker 6: But they I think I think the l a p D,
Speaker 6: as far as evidence goes, I think they've got great
Speaker 6: ballistics right now on that nine millimeter shell that was
Speaker 6: found in Susan's house, I would bet it's close. Because
Speaker 6: Galveston Bay said, oh, it was inconclusive, But that's Galveston Bay,
Speaker 6: you know. Did they even have a crime lab of
Speaker 6: their own? So the l a p D didn't test it.
Speaker 6: But I bet it's already been to Quantico, Virginia, to
Speaker 6: the FBI, and and that it's been tested by the
Speaker 6: l a p d's lab. And I think they've got
Speaker 6: a lot and you know, they've got lots of circumstantial
Speaker 6: they placed them. Financial records in my books, I've reported
Speaker 6: financial records show him in Los Angeles, not just San Francisco.
Speaker 6: He flew out at San Francisco the afternoon she was found,
Speaker 6: and his attorney, Dicta Garin, one of the best in
Speaker 6: the country, told me he had an alibi for Susan
Speaker 6: Berman's debt, that he was in the air. And I said, well,
Speaker 6: wait a minute, what day was that he was in
Speaker 6: the air after her body was found? Once she had
Speaker 6: been dead for you know, for twenty four to thirty
Speaker 6: six hours, so he had plenty of time to get
Speaker 6: to drive back to San Francisco and then get that
Speaker 6: flight out on the twenty fourth.
Speaker 4: Well, we're talking about this type of interesting evidence. Tell
Speaker 4: us about the cadaver letter. And this was the letter
Speaker 4: notifying police that there was a body at Susan Burman's house.
Speaker 4: That's how there was a letter sent to police, and
Speaker 4: that was called what we refer in your book to
Speaker 4: is the cadaver letter. So tell us about the cadaver
Speaker 4: letter and then the handwriting analysis or comparison that seemed
Speaker 4: to be part of the was part of the HBO
Speaker 4: the Jinks series.
Speaker 6: Yeah, on December twenty third postcard, Well, it was an
Speaker 6: envelope with a note inside that said cadaver in Susan's
Speaker 6: address and Beverly Hills and Beverly Hills was felled wrong
Speaker 6: with an extra e and then the envelope block letters
Speaker 6: on the front of the envelope to the Beverly Hill.
Speaker 6: All it said was Beverly Hills Police postmarked December twenty
Speaker 6: third in Los Angeles, and they sent it to the
Speaker 6: wrong jurisdiction. Of course, the killer did, and no one
Speaker 6: could have written it except for the killer because it
Speaker 6: was postmarked the day before a body was found, and
Speaker 6: so it's obviously the killer. And I think there's just
Speaker 6: like some mess with people again, you know. I don't
Speaker 6: think it was because he cared her body was in there,
Speaker 6: you know, deteriorating. I think it's just he just does
Speaker 6: things just because I think he thinks he pulls the
Speaker 6: wool over people's eyes and he's just messing with him. Hey,
Speaker 6: guess what, You've got a body over there. And so
Speaker 6: in the in the HBO documentary Sarah Sarah, who was
Speaker 6: Sarah Kaufman, who was Susan's stepson, quasi step son. She
Speaker 6: lived with his father for a long time and then
Speaker 6: helped raise his two children. He's an adult of course.
Speaker 6: So Sarah was given papers from the l a p. D.
Speaker 6: Of Susan's you know, personal records, manuscripts, things like that,
Speaker 6: in a box and the film years ago. The police,
Speaker 6: now you get that right, The police had apparently gone
Speaker 6: through them. I don't know if they went through them,
Speaker 6: but they gave them to them. I think it's floppy
Speaker 6: police work because they missed it. So the filmmaker then asked, Hey,
Speaker 6: could you go through the stuff and you know one
Speaker 6: more time and just see if there is anything interesting.
Speaker 6: And he called Sarah calls the filmmaker and says, oh
Speaker 6: my god, he's shaking, he's upset. Can somebody come over.
Speaker 6: He found this envelope from the Durst Organization stationary in
Speaker 6: block letters, just like the cadaver letter Beverly Hills to
Speaker 6: Susan Berman. I guess you thought she was in Beverly Hills.
Speaker 6: She was really in Los Angeles and right on the border.
Speaker 6: So the same misspelling, same letters, same everything. Handwriting analysis
Speaker 6: so far three of them say that it matches Durst's handwriting.
Speaker 6: But earlier Durst had had police had asked for one.
Speaker 6: When he was in jail in Galveston, they'd asked l A.
Speaker 6: PD had asked for handwriting, and of course he wrote Cursey.
Speaker 6: You know, he didn't right in block letters, and they couldn't.
Speaker 6: It was inconclusive. But these are dead on matches right now.
Speaker 6: So they confronted Durst with those and then we all
Speaker 6: know what happens after that in the in the documentary
Speaker 6: of course, right.
Speaker 4: Well, tell us for those people that didn't see it,
Speaker 4: I happened to catch it, of course because of your
Speaker 4: book and interview, Like a lot of people, you know,
Speaker 4: I said, Wow, I'll just I'll get to see this
Speaker 4: and and I just happened to see all of it
Speaker 4: and happened to see that last episode. I hadn't even
Speaker 4: planned on it, and I just happened to see it.
Speaker 4: Where his muttering to himself. So tell us about the
Speaker 4: HBO series, why there was interest and what they tell us,
Speaker 4: like the format of the show for those people that
Speaker 4: didn't get to see it yet. Tell us about the chings.
Speaker 6: Well, there was the movie The Good was it called
Speaker 6: The All Good Things? Is that what it was called?
Speaker 6: There's a movie, yes, okay, a movie about Kathy Durst
Speaker 6: and her disappearance. And Ryan Goslin played the lead. He
Speaker 6: played Robert Durst. And the filmmaker was Andrew Jureki, and
Speaker 6: there's like the film. And he called the filmmaker afterward
Speaker 6: and said, Hey, I like the film. Why don't you
Speaker 6: do a documentary on me? And so they talked and
Speaker 6: they got together with Durst. The filmmaker and and another
Speaker 6: producer got together with Durst and his attorney and sat
Speaker 6: down and over months and months, it took a long time,
Speaker 6: they settled on that he was going to do this documentary.
Speaker 6: They interviewed him something like twenty four hours was it
Speaker 6: or twenty three hours of Cape and in the process
Speaker 6: of doing that and then over I think it took
Speaker 6: a couple of years to do it. I think I
Speaker 6: came very close to being interviewed, and then they never
Speaker 6: called me. I was told that I was on the list,
Speaker 6: but I wanted to say anything positive because if you
Speaker 6: look at the early early series, it's a six part series.
Speaker 6: In the first three are very sympathetic toward Durst. I'd
Speaker 6: like to see the contract they had with him. I
Speaker 6: think it's because his attorney is now saying the filmmaker's
Speaker 6: double crossed him. So in the fifth episode, sixth episode,
Speaker 6: which is you know, the big one. Fifth one was
Speaker 6: about Susan, which was fascinating. Then the last one is
Speaker 6: Sarah discovering of course on film. He'd discovered it beforehand
Speaker 6: and then they put it on film and he had
Speaker 6: his reaction this envelope with the Durst organization letter head
Speaker 6: and then the exact words. So they asked, there's you know,
Speaker 6: confronted him Jareki did the filmmaker, and he said, oh, well, yeah,
Speaker 6: the only one who could have written the cadaver letter
Speaker 6: is the killer. He admitted that, and then he said,
Speaker 6: but you know that's not just anybody could do that.
Speaker 6: It's like a typewriter. You write block letters and they
Speaker 6: all look alike. And then he took away the he
Speaker 6: had printed them. The filmmaker had printed the two Beverly
Speaker 6: Hills on one piece of paper, one above the other,
Speaker 6: and said which one is yours? And Durst couldn't tell him,
Speaker 6: couldn't recognize his own handwriting because they both are handwriting,
Speaker 6: of course, so Durst excused himself, said he had to
Speaker 6: use the restroom, gets that he's still on. Mike goes
Speaker 6: in and says, what have you done? This is a disaster.
Speaker 6: What have you done? Killed them all? Of course, and
Speaker 6: they've got down on tape. It's more of an admission,
Speaker 6: I think, than a confession, but it stakes volume.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting. Let's go back just a little bit.
Speaker 4: I wanted to because we didn't talk about his when
Speaker 4: he's on the run and he's trying to go incognito.
Speaker 4: We've heard countless tales of people getting aliases and having
Speaker 4: new lives, but this guy does it to a you know,
Speaker 4: a whole new other level. So let's talk a little
Speaker 4: bit about this cross dressing and that's even bizarre and
Speaker 4: this mute disguise that he has so that he can't
Speaker 4: apparently can't talk to police. And also we'll talk a
Speaker 4: little bit about Morris Black and.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, Morris Black and his Yeah he's an odd
Speaker 6: odd ball too, you know, but Morris Black apparently had
Speaker 6: ties to the Mob, and there is there is. Bobby
Speaker 6: Baka believes that there's a connection, you know, between the
Speaker 6: mob and that they found out something to do with Susan,
Speaker 6: but her father didn't have anything to do with those people.
Speaker 6: Plus her father's been dead since nineteen fifty seven, so
Speaker 6: you know, Susan, the only tie she had was she
Speaker 6: got you know, money over the years until she was thirty,
Speaker 6: and then it all ended because she was paid whatever
Speaker 6: his interests were, and that was the course to Chicago.
Speaker 6: Connection is there is certainly nothing to do with with
Speaker 6: Morris Black and his family. But Morris there's claims that
Speaker 6: they got into an argument and Morris had a gun
Speaker 6: and they scuffled and it accidentally went off and killed him,
Speaker 6: killed Morris, and then he just panicked, so he went
Speaker 6: and got a chainsaw and chopped him up and in
Speaker 6: a panic. I don't know how you can chop up
Speaker 6: your own species. I have a hard time chopping up
Speaker 6: a chicken, but I don't do that anymore. So so
Speaker 6: he gets so there's blood everywhere, you know, in in
Speaker 6: the apartment, and then he he's living as a mute woman.
Speaker 6: But apparently he talked to he let his guard down
Speaker 6: with Morris, so maybe that was it. He let his
Speaker 6: guard down and started talking to him. And so Morris
Speaker 6: knew that he was living as you know, as a woman,
Speaker 6: and he was on the run, So that could have
Speaker 6: been the motivation as well, because you've got motive, opportunity
Speaker 6: and meets, you know, and and he certainly had everything
Speaker 6: so that that could be connected. That he found out
Speaker 6: too like Susan, knew too much and so he did
Speaker 6: him in. But then he you know, they never found
Speaker 6: Morris black head, so they couldn't say how he was killed,
Speaker 6: although he says he was shot in the front of
Speaker 6: the head. I think he was shot in the back
Speaker 6: and they head just like Susan, So the head disappeared,
Speaker 6: and of course he got rid of the head because
Speaker 6: that would have been terrible evidence. So without that, the
Speaker 6: re acquitted him the self defense theory, and you know,
Speaker 6: Dick Degeron, one of the top defense attorneys in the country,
Speaker 6: represented him, and now I guess he's representing him again
Speaker 6: in New Orleans where he was arrested by the way,
Speaker 6: with a mask of an old person and a wig,
Speaker 6: so he was going to do the same thing. Apparently,
Speaker 6: only had a map of Cuba with him and passports
Speaker 6: in about twenty different IDs, all in the legal different names.
Speaker 4: Isn't it fascinating that Geron puts Robert Durst in California
Speaker 4: at the time of his wife's murder. So as clever
Speaker 4: as he is and as commodating it is for his client,
Speaker 4: he's not done any good for him in this case,
Speaker 4: has he no?
Speaker 6: And then they've had that confirmed of course with the
Speaker 6: you know, the the flight that he took out it
Speaker 6: was actually I believe a ten PM flight out of
Speaker 6: out of San Francisco on December twenty fourth, and plenty
Speaker 6: of time from the twenty second or the twenty morning
Speaker 6: of the twenty third when she was killed somewhere around
Speaker 6: there according to Rigormortis and her body, you know that
Speaker 6: she had been dead for you know, twenty four to
Speaker 6: thirty six hours and they so they now have financial
Speaker 6: records placing him leaving. They've got a about two hundred
Speaker 6: miles outside of one hundred or so miles outside of
Speaker 6: south of San Francisco area. They've got him checking his voicemail,
Speaker 6: so they've got a king on his cell phone. And
Speaker 6: then they don't have anything on him until the twenty
Speaker 6: fourth back in California, other than back in northern California.
Speaker 6: So Susan's murder happens all of a sudden. He's quiet
Speaker 6: on his cell phone and everything else. But I'm told
Speaker 6: that there are financial records. He was told by a
Speaker 6: San Francisco investigator, and I had it confirmed with the
Speaker 6: LAPD that they're uh, they've got financial records that place
Speaker 6: Durst in the Los Angeles area, which is gas or something.
Speaker 6: He slipped up somehow, He slipped up somehow, because he
Speaker 6: does that. You know, you know, kirks get caught because
Speaker 6: they got you know, they're stupid and they make a mistake,
Speaker 6: you know, trying to cover something up. It's hard enough living,
Speaker 6: isn't it. Trying to do everything the right way and
Speaker 6: everything you do, let alone having the manufacture stuff. That's
Speaker 6: hard to do, and so you trip yourself up and
Speaker 6: he's getting older. Good thing is he's not in very
Speaker 6: good health.
Speaker 4: You talked about Los Angeles police, We'll just say, for
Speaker 4: lack of a better term, dropping the ball on this.
Speaker 4: But in terms of the FBI, have they seemed to
Speaker 4: put as far as as you know, seemed to put
Speaker 4: everything together in terms of Kathy Durst murdered, Susan Berman
Speaker 4: has the alibi going to be questioned, murdered, and then
Speaker 4: we certainly can see what he did to his capability
Speaker 4: of murdering, dismembering, covering up his crime. Does it seem
Speaker 4: like they have a good handle on the nexus of
Speaker 4: events and enough to really convict Robert Durst this time?
Speaker 6: I do. I think they do. But I think the
Speaker 6: important thing is he was caught in New Orleans, you know,
Speaker 6: about to leave the country apparently with a gun, and
Speaker 6: he was convicted of a felony being on the lamb,
Speaker 6: you know, because he did he did flee justice, so
Speaker 6: he was convicted of that. So he's a convicted fella.
Speaker 6: And he had a fire two firearms with him. He
Speaker 6: had five kilos of marijuana five ounces quilos five ounces
Speaker 6: of marijuana with us in New Orleans. That's a felon
Speaker 6: with a weapon and illy substance, So they're gonna that
Speaker 6: that could get him ten to twenty. So LAPD's not
Speaker 6: pushing it because that's a federal case.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 6: The state case on that was dropped, so the Feds
Speaker 6: are focusing in New Orleans because they can get him
Speaker 6: on that, no doubt. And then his attorney wants to
Speaker 6: get him in LA, of course, but they also want
Speaker 6: to get rid of that federal case in New Orleans.
Speaker 6: So once he gets to LA, I think they've got
Speaker 6: a heck of a case. I really do. Interesting thing
Speaker 6: is one of his friends he met him in Houston
Speaker 6: at a Starbucks. This guy contacted me last week said
Speaker 6: I'm a friend of He sent me a message through
Speaker 6: I can't remember which social media side it was. It
Speaker 6: might have been LinkedIn that a friend of Robert Durst
Speaker 6: wants to talk to you, which sent us, you know,
Speaker 6: a chill up my spine. So I figured what the heck?
Speaker 6: So I took my my GPS off my phone, turned
Speaker 6: it off and called and and soyone to know where
Speaker 6: I was. And he said what I think he was
Speaker 6: trying to change my mind. It wasn't like he was
Speaker 6: trying to pick my brain. He was trying to change
Speaker 6: my mind on Durst, you know, to claim that he's innocent.
Speaker 6: This is what he's going after, is someone someone impersonated
Speaker 6: tried to set up Dirst, went into his to killed
Speaker 6: Susan Berman and then tried to set up Durst and
Speaker 6: killed her. Chris, there's no motive to kill her. She
Speaker 6: didn't have any money or anything. Nothing was taken from
Speaker 6: the house. And that rifled through her things found a
Speaker 6: letter that Durst had written her and then copied the
Speaker 6: handwriting and copied it adds the cadaver letters, so it
Speaker 6: was forged in his handwriting. It wasn't his because someone
Speaker 6: wanted to send him up. It's so far fetched. It's laughable.
Speaker 6: And I blogged about it and then you know the
Speaker 6: whole it's it's amazing to me, but I think that
Speaker 6: I think his guys are just putting their heads together.
Speaker 6: His defence teame trying to come up with something is creative.
Speaker 6: As the self defense in Galveston Bay. It was brilliant, brilliant,
Speaker 6: and it worked in.
Speaker 4: It well absolutely, you get a It is testament to
Speaker 4: the incredible kind of defense that you get. And again
Speaker 4: I won't go back into my rant about that, but
Speaker 4: in terms of being able to defend yourself after the
Speaker 4: body parts are found in Galveston Bay, then he has
Speaker 4: enough time to come up with again creative defense, the
Speaker 4: only defense that's left because there's no head. Of course,
Speaker 4: there's no forensic evidence of how that person was killed.
Speaker 4: But that's usually not a good enough defense to be
Speaker 4: able to provide at trial and to be acquitted. But
Speaker 4: when you have a great lawyer. But what I found
Speaker 4: fascinating with this story is that Dick de geerin this
Speaker 4: veteran lawyer, really screws up with this inadvertent admission for
Speaker 4: an alibi for his client.
Speaker 6: And so oh and he told me he's the off
Speaker 6: the record, and I said, no, you didn't, because and
Speaker 6: I've interviewed him at length because of a you know,
Speaker 6: the Vinion trial in Las Vegas, because he was on
Speaker 6: that case for a while, so I've been in the
Speaker 6: courtroom with him, and I said, no, no, you didn't
Speaker 6: tell me before he said that that it was off
Speaker 6: the record. I mean, it was on the record. And
Speaker 6: he realized the second he said it, he goes, oh wait, wait,
Speaker 6: wait a minute he realized it. But then they were
Speaker 6: able to confirm that, you know, I mean, I broke
Speaker 6: that in the book, but they were able to They
Speaker 6: were able to confirm that with his records. You know,
Speaker 6: he bi sings with credit cards he gets. You know,
Speaker 6: when you fly, you have to use your name, otherwise
Speaker 6: if you don't, you're going, you're flying. You know, it's
Speaker 6: illegal to do that if you get found out using
Speaker 6: a false idea and everything. It's a big penalty that
Speaker 6: there are federal laws against that. So he flew all.
Speaker 6: He always flew as himself that we know us. So, yeah,
Speaker 6: we've got him flying in and out of San Francisco
Speaker 6: around the time of her death. And yeah, it's just, uh,
Speaker 6: he's he's powerful and rich and thinks he's the smartest
Speaker 6: person in the room. And you know, he's not as
Speaker 6: cagy as he thinks, because he just got caught, didn't.
Speaker 4: He Why did he kill Susan Burman? In your mind?
Speaker 6: I think he. I think Susan did know a lot,
Speaker 6: and I think that he didn't. You know, he didn't
Speaker 6: necessarily trust her anymore. He was out of touch with her.
Speaker 6: She was anxious to get a hold of him, who
Speaker 6: knows what their conversations were like. And I think he
Speaker 6: killed her to shut her up in case the you know,
Speaker 6: police wanted to because they did want to talk to her,
Speaker 6: and he knew that they were going to eventually, and
Speaker 6: I think he shut her up. So any information she
Speaker 6: had at all was And one of the one things
Speaker 6: she could have told him was that she was the
Speaker 6: one who made the phone call to the school to
Speaker 6: try to place Kathy Durst in Manhattan, you know, And
Speaker 6: I think that that that was the most damning thing probably,
Speaker 6: But who knows what else she knew. I mean, she
Speaker 6: told friends that I know Bobby did it. I know
Speaker 6: that he killed Susan killed Kathy Durst. But he's my Bobby,
Speaker 6: you know. I mean, her father was a killer, and
Speaker 6: she adored her father, even though she knew what his background,
Speaker 6: you know, at his high level in Las Vegas. He
Speaker 6: never killed anybody himself. He may have ordered it, but
Speaker 6: he didn't. He no longer killed, but in his younger
Speaker 6: years he did, and he did some time for one murder.
Speaker 6: And so so it's almost like Susan was anesthetize to it,
Speaker 6: and so she accepted it. She accepted it, and then
Speaker 6: the Omerica thing with the mobs, so he had I
Speaker 6: don't think she would have. I don't think she would
Speaker 6: have rad it on him. But I think it was
Speaker 6: the phone call to the dean that would have taken
Speaker 6: away placing her that would have negated that. And then
Speaker 6: who else or whatever else she knew, because you know,
Speaker 6: she no doubt knew that he uh, he killed his wife.
Speaker 6: He also had some dogs and kept naming them Igor
Speaker 6: and set on tape, and it's in the jinks, you know,
Speaker 6: he said to his wife, uh, what's her name, Sheraton,
Speaker 6: Debra Sheraton, that he you know, they gotter watch out
Speaker 6: all Egor them like it's an you know, it's a
Speaker 6: it's an active verb. Egor the dog's name. He had
Speaker 6: like ten dogs and they kept dying of none naturally.
Speaker 6: So there's there's thought out there that he was practicing
Speaker 6: to kill Kathy by killing his dog Egor, and then
Speaker 6: he just go get another one, and then that one
Speaker 6: would die and he'd go get another one, you know,
Speaker 6: So it's all creepy. It's all very creepy. But now
Speaker 6: he's you know, he's in jail where he should be,
Speaker 6: and you've got one more killer off the street at
Speaker 6: least for now.
Speaker 4: What's really telling is is the despite the Durst organization,
Speaker 4: like you said, what time, rallying around their son to say, listen,
Speaker 4: please don't question this guy. Leave this guy alone. Douglas Durst,
Speaker 4: which is the head of the foundation now spoke to
Speaker 4: HBO about Robert Durst and his suspicions about Robert Durst.
Speaker 4: So tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 6: Well that he wasn't speaking to HBO. Those were the
Speaker 6: well I think no, I think they did get him.
Speaker 6: But part of the tapes were depositions because Durst was
Speaker 6: stalking his family and they were afraid of him. You know,
Speaker 6: he went and urinated, He eliminated his bladder in a store.
Speaker 6: Durst did just because, you know, just because, and and
Speaker 6: got off on that. You know that he was acquitted
Speaker 6: of that. And then this stocking thing, I think that
Speaker 6: was dismissed. And they're afraid of him. They've got temporary
Speaker 6: restraining orders. So upon his arrest they were just hugely relieved.
Speaker 6: But yeah, he said they had they had fights, and
Speaker 6: then his brother talked about being afraid of him, and
Speaker 6: then Dre's just then they'd cut away in the in
Speaker 6: the Jinks to Durst and Durst observing this in the film,
Speaker 6: you know, seeing his brothers seeing he's afraid of him,
Speaker 6: and they're laughing, going, yeah, I don't know why he's
Speaker 6: afraid of me. He's been afraid of me ever since
Speaker 6: we were little boys, you know, and it's it's he's
Speaker 6: a creep you know. And they were Thanksgiving dinner one year,
Speaker 6: it's like twenty and thirteen or something or twelve. They
Speaker 6: look up and you know, these people have a lot
Speaker 6: of money, so they live in the States, so they
Speaker 6: live in and you know, they own the whole walk up.
Speaker 6: You know, it's not just one apartment, you know that
Speaker 6: in Manhattan. And he and he's just standing at their
Speaker 6: at their window, looking at them as they're sitting at
Speaker 6: the dining room table having dinner. You know, he's creeped
Speaker 6: him all out. And he just does that because he
Speaker 6: likes to. He likes to he likes to get a
Speaker 6: reaction out of people. So it's a it's a he's
Speaker 6: a creepy guy. And I'm glad he's behind bars. And
Speaker 6: if he dies in jail, you know, he may not
Speaker 6: make it to to l A because he's a very
Speaker 6: sick man right now. Apparently he's in New Orleans. You
Speaker 6: know you've been to New Orleans. No, but I know
Speaker 6: good a boy down there. It's a good. Yeah. The
Speaker 6: jails aren't fund down, No, that's a whole new world down.
Speaker 6: So they're not impressed with money.
Speaker 4: Let me ask this question for the authority on all things,
Speaker 4: Susan Berman and Robert Durst, by virtue of your incredible,
Speaker 4: inexplicable connection with this story, do you believe do you
Speaker 4: believe that Susan Berman new you alluded to it just
Speaker 4: a little bit ago, So I'm fascinating. So did Susan
Speaker 4: Berman know that Robert, her friend, Robert Durst, had killed
Speaker 4: his wife? And do you believe that she was the
Speaker 4: one that made that call posing as Catherine Durst to
Speaker 4: the dean of the school the next day.
Speaker 6: I think she's absolutely the one who made the phone call.
Speaker 6: And as far as knowing that he killed Kathy, I
Speaker 6: think I think she suspected it. If she had any evidence,
Speaker 6: we'll never know, or if he told her directly, but
Speaker 6: I think she absolutely suspected it, and she forgave him.
Speaker 6: You know, she loved him like a brother. She told everybody,
Speaker 6: and and she would have forgiven him of anything. She
Speaker 6: knew her father was a killer, and it didn't freak
Speaker 6: her out. And and I think that that because he
Speaker 6: was a very loving father, and so she felt he
Speaker 6: was a loving friend. And I think she would have
Speaker 6: forgiven Bobby Durst for anything. And I think that's why
Speaker 6: he kept her around. And along came the second wife,
Speaker 6: and she was she was the same way, only she
Speaker 6: was a powerful real estate agent and she just believed
Speaker 6: everything he told her. And I think she knew a lot.
Speaker 6: I think she absolutely knows a lot too. But he
Speaker 6: married her right before, right before he went to trial
Speaker 6: in Galveston, and everybody says it was because of the
Speaker 6: protection of marriage. You can't testify against the spouse, and
Speaker 6: that's why they married, because they never really lived with
Speaker 6: man and wife. He's a difficult person to live with.
Speaker 6: So yes, I do believe, and I believe if she
Speaker 6: didn't know he killed his wife. I think she knew
Speaker 6: too much and he knew that she knew too much,
Speaker 6: and that's that was the motive for killing her. And
Speaker 6: it's a shame, you know, because Susan was she had
Speaker 6: a sad life, you know, in so many ways, and
Speaker 6: she was trying so hard to make it, and she
Speaker 6: had you know, very big years, very high years, in
Speaker 6: very low years. She went through something like five point
Speaker 6: four million dollars from the mob and that you could,
Speaker 6: you know, that would go a lifetime and then some
Speaker 6: had she invested it because back then, you know, when
Speaker 6: she was thirty and she got the last payment, that
Speaker 6: was all a year. Would that have been She was
Speaker 6: born in forty six, so seventy six, I mean, that's
Speaker 6: a lot of money, and Susan just blew through it.
Speaker 6: She wasn't given the tools to live as a child,
Speaker 6: and I think that's what happened to Durst. Neither one
Speaker 6: of them, because of their wealth and they never had
Speaker 6: to work, they never had to have a paper route.
Speaker 6: Everything was given to them. And then Susan of course
Speaker 6: did have to make a living later, but she didn't
Speaker 6: have the tools. They weren't given to her growing up,
Speaker 6: and I don't think they were given to Durst as well,
Speaker 6: and they couldn't function and regular, you know, in some
Speaker 6: ways they were very much alike. Only of course she
Speaker 6: wasn't a killer, but you know, she was very dysfunctional.
Speaker 6: I don't think she was sociopathic. He of course is
Speaker 6: I'm no psychiatrists, but you know it's human behavior. But
Speaker 6: he's one messed up dude. And but she fell for
Speaker 6: it all. And what if I think Dan, she would
Speaker 6: have forgiven him for killing her. I think she would
Speaker 6: have forgiven him for it, you know what I mean?
Speaker 6: Because she would have forgiven him of anything. And and
Speaker 6: and he was a fool because he he didn't he
Speaker 6: didn't trust his friendship with her enough. And there's no
Speaker 6: reason to kill her because she I don't think she
Speaker 6: would have given him.
Speaker 4: Up, you know.
Speaker 6: So that's sort of a Yeah, that's that's the sad
Speaker 6: part about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's an incrediblen too. Yeah, it's an incredible
Speaker 4: story too that where she starts off with her her
Speaker 4: father has such influence. I found this one of the
Speaker 4: more fascinating little antidotes. Was she said to her father,
Speaker 4: I love Elvis Presley, and if you're such a big
Speaker 4: important guy, you'll get him to sing me happy birthday.
Speaker 4: So he did. He got He told Presley to come
Speaker 4: and sing at her twelfth birthday. If you can imagine
Speaker 4: that effect, say happy birthday and sign a note tour. Wow.
Speaker 4: So that's how powerful Davy Berman was at that time,
Speaker 4: and because.
Speaker 6: Liberazzi, yeah, Liberaci and all those guys, Jack Banny, I
Speaker 6: mean it was everybody, and you know, she anybody, and
Speaker 6: then she'd have a limousine come pick her up. She
Speaker 6: had a friend, only one friend on her street and
Speaker 6: Pat Bailey, and he's heavy in the book, and I
Speaker 6: interviewed him at length and he he would get they
Speaker 6: would get picked up in a limousine to go to
Speaker 6: her birthday parties. And she didn't have any kids to
Speaker 6: invite her birthday parties, so her father would invite all
Speaker 6: his casino workers' families or the executives. All the kids
Speaker 6: would come. Your kids that she didn't know very well.
Speaker 6: One of them was Bob Miller, who grew up to
Speaker 6: be a governor, and he said, well, I only saw
Speaker 6: her at birthday parties or in the swimming pool.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: He was a couple of years older than her, and
Speaker 6: he became governor of Nevada. But it it and she
Speaker 6: stayed in touch with him, you know, So it was
Speaker 6: it was interesting in some ways that life was was
Speaker 6: very idellic. And they were in parades down you know,
Speaker 6: down Fremont Street when she was young. But in some
Speaker 6: ways that harmed her because she never was able to
Speaker 6: really make it on her own. She wasn't given the
Speaker 6: tools life tools that you get, you know when you're
Speaker 6: growing up.
Speaker 4: Well they also by by your books account too, and
Speaker 4: all accounts. She became more and more paranoid and difficult
Speaker 4: and had you know, rows with many, many people, and
Speaker 4: it seemed like Bobby Durst, you know, you can't have
Speaker 4: any more testament to a certain type of personality when
Speaker 4: your your family's afraid of you, and your father doesn't
Speaker 4: entrust you with the with the company because it's to
Speaker 4: the youngest son, not the oldest son. So both of
Speaker 4: these people, by virtue of their circumstances their parents dying
Speaker 4: or in this case Bobby, her mother dying at a
Speaker 4: young age. All the combination of being spoiled and not
Speaker 4: having to do some of the things that normal people
Speaker 4: have to do, they end up inextricably involved. Friends at first.
Speaker 6: And yeah, then just both damage. Yeah, yeah, and I
Speaker 6: think she.
Speaker 4: You go ahead, oh go ahead, gotty, Well.
Speaker 6: She you know, she's very she was damaged goods. But
Speaker 6: I think both of them, but definitely Susan and analyzing her,
Speaker 6: she was stunted emotionally. It's almost like her feet were
Speaker 6: firmly planted at twelve years old in Las Vegas, and
Speaker 6: she never could shake it. You know, she never she
Speaker 6: was always searching for something. She always wanted to write
Speaker 6: about Las Vegas. It's like she wanted to return. And
Speaker 6: she'd always tell people you were my father. She never
Speaker 6: thought her father was famous enough. Well he is, you know,
Speaker 6: because of her, And now she's becoming a household name.
Speaker 6: And Susan always wanted to be somebody and be famous,
Speaker 6: and now she is. And it's interesting that it's because
Speaker 6: of her death, which had made a name for herself.
Speaker 6: But she was long forgotten, you know, so you know,
Speaker 6: in her younger years she'd made a name for herself.
Speaker 6: But now, of course, you know, she goes down in history.
Speaker 6: And and but she wanted she thought her dad was
Speaker 6: such a big person in the mob. But you know,
Speaker 6: he kept a low profile. You know, it wasn't Tony
Speaker 6: Spilotro who got killed because he had too much of
Speaker 6: a big mouth. You know, the mob got got rid
Speaker 6: of him. But Davy kept a low profile. He's a gentleman.
Speaker 6: He had a good reputation in town. He was you know,
Speaker 6: he was a philanthropist. They you know, the mob walked
Speaker 6: among everybody in Las Vegas back then, and their names
Speaker 6: were in the phone book and they ran the town.
Speaker 6: And she was used to that, and she thought he
Speaker 6: was such a big person and he ran the Flamingo.
Speaker 6: Why wasn't his name bigger? She'd look him up in
Speaker 6: books and there's just be a mention of them. So
Speaker 6: now her dad's famous too, isn't he?
Speaker 4: And so's their good friend and killer Bobby Durst. And
Speaker 4: it's indicative too of him contacting HBO interest in and
Speaker 4: immortalizing himself in some kind of documentary. Maybe he can
Speaker 4: get his dream to come full circle and he can
Speaker 4: get a movie about himself as well. Maybe he'll get
Speaker 4: a leading man. Doesn't quite look like he does at
Speaker 4: seventy two.
Speaker 6: I want Yeah, his ego god in the way? Did
Speaker 6: it is? Ego got in the way?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Thank God for the narcissism of these people that
Speaker 4: eventually it's to their undoing. Yes, absolutely. I want to
Speaker 4: thank you Kathy very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 4: about Murder of a Mafia Daughter, and congratulations on the
Speaker 4: re release of that book again with new information and
Speaker 4: Murder of a Mafia daughter, the story behind the suspicions
Speaker 4: Robert Durst murdered Susan Berman. Thank you very much, Kathy,
Speaker 4: my pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you, and it's pre selling by the way on Amazon.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Kathy, thank you very much, and you have a
Speaker 4: great night you too, by bye, good night. This episode
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