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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder The Most Shocking
Speaker 4: Killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. Don Miller was quiet and reserved. As a
Speaker 5: former youth pastor, he seemed to devout christian No one
Speaker 5: would have ever suspected that the recent graduate of the
Speaker 5: Michigan State University the School of Criminal Justice was a
Speaker 5: serial killer. However, when Miller was arrested for the attempted
Speaker 5: murder of two teenagers in nineteen seventy eight, police quickly
Speaker 5: realized he was probably responsible for the disappearances of for women.
Speaker 5: Offered a still controversial plea bargain, he led police to
Speaker 5: the bodies of the missing women. Now, after forty years
Speaker 5: in prison, Miller has served his time and is due
Speaker 5: to be released into an unsuspecting population. In Killing Women,
Speaker 5: author Rodney Sadler examines the crimes the justice meeted out
Speaker 5: in the impending freedom of a man. Nationally renowned psychiatrist
Speaker 5: doctor Frank Auckberg wrote, is a member of a small
Speaker 5: deadly dangerous population. Murderers whose stock capture, torture, and kill.
Speaker 5: Murderers who derive sexual and narcissistic gratification from their predation.
Speaker 5: Murderers who maintain a mascousy appearing normal and harmless. The
Speaker 5: book that we're featuring this evening is Killing Women, the
Speaker 5: true story of serial killer Don Miller's Reign of Terror,
Speaker 5: with my special guest, former officer and author Rod Sadler.
Speaker 5: Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much
Speaker 5: for this interview. Rod Sadler.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan. It is certainly a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 3: It always is, and I always enjoy a good talk
Speaker 3: about my books. Thank you again.
Speaker 5: Thank you. Absolutely, we always have a fascinating time talking
Speaker 5: about the various perpetrators, and this one is no exception.
Speaker 5: Very fascinating, very fascinating case. Let's talk about just briefly.
Speaker 5: You serve with the Eaton County Sheriff's Department, a thirty
Speaker 5: year career. You had interesting Robert K. Wrestler, same alma mater,
Speaker 5: Michigan State University. In August seventy eight, where the story starts.
Speaker 5: You had just began your criminals, began studying criminal justice
Speaker 5: in the fall of nineteen seventy eight, three weeks after
Speaker 5: Miller's arrest.
Speaker 3: That is.
Speaker 5: Go ahead, Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 3: I was just going to say yes, that is correct.
Speaker 3: I graduated in nineteen seventy eight, began college in the fall,
Speaker 3: and that was literally three weeks after Don Miller's arrest.
Speaker 3: Early in my career, I had Early early in my career,
Speaker 3: I had decided on law enforcement as a career. I
Speaker 3: knew what I was going to do, and as I
Speaker 3: was finishing high school, these women had come up missing
Speaker 3: in the East Lancy area. I grew up in a
Speaker 3: small town east of Michigan State University, about twenty miles,
Speaker 3: so it was a big local story every time one
Speaker 3: of these women came up missing, and so I kind
Speaker 3: of followed it. And then when Miller was eventually arrested,
Speaker 3: that was about the same time I was starting to
Speaker 3: get ready to go to college. And the interesting part
Speaker 3: about this whole thing is that I have a unique
Speaker 3: perspective writing this because throughout my career I had the
Speaker 3: chance to associate with and make friends with numerous people
Speaker 3: that were involved in this case, from the first police
Speaker 3: officers that were involved, to judges, prosecutors, and even Miller's
Speaker 3: own defense attorney. All became colleagues and friends of mine,
Speaker 3: and I didn't realize the amount of or how many
Speaker 3: of them there really were at the time until late
Speaker 3: in my career. The other unique perspective is that I
Speaker 3: did my career through the Eaton County Sheriff's office, and
Speaker 3: that is where Don Miller was arrested, was in Eton
Speaker 3: County and was lodged at the Eton County Jail about
Speaker 3: ten years before I started there, So a lot of
Speaker 3: those same people were working there when I started.
Speaker 5: Now you take us right away in the book to
Speaker 5: a very incredibly vivid and horrifying scene. This is August sixteenth,
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy eight, and this is near Lansing, Michigan, East Lansing.
Speaker 5: This is two days after a woman, a teacher named
Speaker 5: Christian Stewart, was reported missing. Now there is a you
Speaker 5: describe as because this person made a report. Tell us
Speaker 5: about this incredible event where this thirteen year old girl,
Speaker 5: fourteen year old girls at home with their thirteen year
Speaker 5: old brother, and there's a man at the door. Tell
Speaker 5: us what happens when this man that she doesn't know
Speaker 5: anything about, bangs at the door. What happens, what does
Speaker 5: he do, and what event is set off as a result.
Speaker 3: Actually, what happened was Lisa and Randy Gilbert lived in
Speaker 3: a brand new house. They'd only lived there for two months.
Speaker 3: They lived with their dad and their stepmom, and every
Speaker 3: day at three o'clock they were required to call their
Speaker 3: stepmom at work she in fact worked at Michigan State University,
Speaker 3: and just to get a list of yours to do,
Speaker 3: or just to check in with her. Every day at
Speaker 3: three o'clock. Well, behind the house was a small pond,
Speaker 3: if you will, They refer to it as a lagoon,
Speaker 3: and Randy liked to go out there in fifth she
Speaker 3: was thirteen years old and Lisa was just being a
Speaker 3: teenage girl listening to the radio. And because the house
Speaker 3: was so new, every once in a while a contractor
Speaker 3: would show up and have to do some quick repairs
Speaker 3: or finish a little job. So they were used to
Speaker 3: seeing contractors come to the house while their parents were
Speaker 3: at work. So that particular afternoon, as three o'clock approached,
Speaker 3: Lisa went out to the back pond and yelled for
Speaker 3: her brother to come on into the house because it
Speaker 3: was almost three o'clock and they were gonna have to
Speaker 3: call their stepmom. The garage door was open. As she
Speaker 3: came around the edge of the house, she noticed a
Speaker 3: brown car in the driveway and she figured it was
Speaker 3: probably another contractor covered by the house. And as she
Speaker 3: walked into the garage, Mail came out from the house
Speaker 3: into the garage and he asked if her dad was home,
Speaker 3: and she said no, And he said, do you have
Speaker 3: a piece of paper where you can write down my
Speaker 3: numbers so I can call him? Write down his number
Speaker 3: so I can call him, And she said sure. So
Speaker 3: as she goes back into the house, he follows her
Speaker 3: in and she begins to look through a drawer for
Speaker 3: a piece of paper and a pencil, and suddenly she's
Speaker 3: grabbed from behind, an arm around her neck, and she
Speaker 3: can see a knife held up to her face, and
Speaker 3: he takes her into the bedroom, into her parents' bedroom,
Speaker 3: where he has obviously already been. He has laid out
Speaker 3: a couple of neck ties he took from her dad's closet,
Speaker 3: and he ties her up and he rapes her, and
Speaker 3: when he's done with that, he takes a small, thin
Speaker 3: leather belt that she had had around her shorts. And
Speaker 3: now she's understand that this is difficult for some people.
Speaker 3: But she was laying face down with her hands bound
Speaker 3: behind her back, with her ankles bound, and she was
Speaker 3: completely nude at that point. And he wrapped that belt
Speaker 3: around her neck and he began to pull and strangle her.
Speaker 3: And as that occurred, she began to get dizzy. She
Speaker 3: couldn't breathe. She was close to passing out, and he
Speaker 3: pulled so tight on that thin belt that it broke.
Speaker 3: And at the instant that that belt broke, her brother
Speaker 3: walked in to the kitchen, and Miller heard her brother,
Speaker 3: and she heard her brother, and Miller quickly dropped the
Speaker 3: belt or the pieces of the belt and went out
Speaker 3: to the kitchen area. And Randy saw him coming out
Speaker 3: and he said, hey, how you doing, And Randy said good,
Speaker 3: and he kind of circled around behind Randy and he
Speaker 3: grabbed Randy around the neck, held a knife up to
Speaker 3: his throat, and he said, where's your bedroom at and
Speaker 3: so Randy told him it was upstairs, and he started
Speaker 3: walking up the stairs. Well, Randy was a thirteen year old,
Speaker 3: skinny as a rail, but feisty, and he wasn't going
Speaker 3: without a fight. So there was a brief struggle on
Speaker 3: the stairs, Miller got back a hold of him. They
Speaker 3: got up to his bedroom. Miller laid him face down
Speaker 3: on the floor and started to cut his throat with
Speaker 3: the knife. Randy started screaming at that point, and he
Speaker 3: was able to get his hand around and grab the
Speaker 3: knife away from his neck and thrown under the bed.
Speaker 3: So Miller instead began to strangle him, and he choked
Speaker 3: him to the point where he passed out. And then
Speaker 3: Miller retrieved the knife from under the bed and he
Speaker 3: stabbed Randy twice in the chest. So now Randy is unconscious.
Speaker 3: He's bleeding from stab wounds in a neck wound where
Speaker 3: Miller tried to cut his throat. And while Miller was
Speaker 3: attacking Randy, Lisa downstairs heard Randy screaming and she fled
Speaker 3: from the house. She was able to get the front
Speaker 3: door and locked. She ran out into traffic nude, with
Speaker 3: her hands tied behind her back. She was able to
Speaker 3: get her feet free and she was screaming for help. Luckily,
Speaker 3: there was an employee from General Motors and Lancing and
Speaker 3: he saw her run out. He was traveling southbound and
Speaker 3: the Delta Township fire chief was traveling northbound and they
Speaker 3: both saw her run out into traffic. Well, she got
Speaker 3: to the GM employee first and was screaming that somebody
Speaker 3: was trying to kill her brother. She'd been raped. Just
Speaker 3: about that time, the Delta township fire chief the first witness,
Speaker 3: and the witness said to him, get her in your car,
Speaker 3: and the witness pulled into the driveway and started for
Speaker 3: the house. He was going to confront or see what
Speaker 3: was going on. And about that time, Miller came out
Speaker 3: the front door, and so they had a brief discussion,
Speaker 3: and the witness said to him, he said, is there
Speaker 3: a boy that's hurt in that house? And Miller said,
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe, and he said, will you just
Speaker 3: wait right here until the police get here. And at
Speaker 3: that point, Miller stepped off the porch, ran by him,
Speaker 3: jumped into his car, and fled. But before he was
Speaker 3: able to flee, the witness was able to get his
Speaker 3: license plate number, and that began a whole series of
Speaker 3: events that resulted in Don Miller's literally his last day
Speaker 3: of freedom in his life.
Speaker 5: So far, right now, they simply are able to have
Speaker 5: these witnesses, They have the license plate number, So how
Speaker 5: easy it is? It for them to arrest Don Miller.
Speaker 5: You say that was his last day of freedom. So
Speaker 5: tell us just a little bit about the arrest before
Speaker 5: we go backwards as you do in terms of how
Speaker 5: much police know at that time or suspect about Don Miller.
Speaker 3: Well, under Michigan law, if a police officer has reason
Speaker 3: to believe that a felony was committed and reason to
Speaker 3: believe that a specific person committed it, they can arrest
Speaker 3: that person without a warrant. And so when the first
Speaker 3: officer pulled up and got the license plate number from
Speaker 3: the witness, he ran the license plate number through the
Speaker 3: Law Enforcement Information Network and it came back to Don Miller.
Speaker 3: By that time, everybody in mid Michigan knew who Don
Speaker 3: Miller was. And we'll get into that in just a minute.
Speaker 3: But as soon as he figured out that the car
Speaker 3: that fled was registered to Don Miller, the Sheriff's office
Speaker 3: put out a I'll use a television terom here in
Speaker 3: APB all points bulletin that really they just put out
Speaker 3: a radio broadcast to all the area police agencies saying
Speaker 3: that they had just had a rape and attempted murder
Speaker 3: and that the suspect vehicle they described it and said
Speaker 3: that it was registered to Don Miller. As soon as
Speaker 3: that radio broadcast went out, the East Lansing Police Department,
Speaker 3: which was about twenty miles to the east of Delta Township,
Speaker 3: has occurred heard that Don Miller was wanted in that
Speaker 3: rape and attempted murder. And so they all fanned out
Speaker 3: to his apartment, his girlfriend's apartment, I'm sorry, his home,
Speaker 3: his girlfriend's apartment, and they caught him. They caught him
Speaker 3: coming back to his girlfriend's apartment, and they arrested him
Speaker 3: within forty minutes of the rape.
Speaker 5: Now, you say, interestingly, an officer named Rick Westgate at
Speaker 5: the same time, here's the police broadcast, and who is
Speaker 5: he and what case was he working on?
Speaker 3: Rick Westgate? Rick Westgate was a sergeant with the Athlantan
Speaker 3: Police Department, and he was brought on early in the
Speaker 3: disappearance of a young lady by the name of Marcus
Speaker 3: Sue Young. And this would have been about eighteen months
Speaker 3: earlier than this rape. And to Sue Young was the
Speaker 3: fiance of Don Miller and Don New Year's Eve in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy six. Don Miller and Martha Sue Young were together.
Speaker 3: They had gone to a house the babysit for some kids.
Speaker 3: Don was living with his parents at the time. He
Speaker 3: and Martha Sue Young, who were friends. They had very
Speaker 3: briefly been engaged, but Martha had told her mother that
Speaker 3: she had broken off the engagement a few days before
Speaker 3: New Year's and so they had remained friends. She said
Speaker 3: that Don had let her keep the engagement ring and
Speaker 3: they would still be friends. So New Year's Eve, they
Speaker 3: went to babysit. They went back to Don's parents, they
Speaker 3: watched the movie It's a Mad, Mad, Mad Mad World,
Speaker 3: and then they left and Don Miller took her out
Speaker 3: any strangle her, he killed her. He came back home
Speaker 3: and about two am and told his mom that he'd
Speaker 3: left Martha sitting on the front porch of her house
Speaker 3: after he dropped her off. And so this was the
Speaker 3: initial missing person report. Rickquestgate worked on that along with
Speaker 3: Dean Tucker, who was a sergeant at the time. He
Speaker 3: was later promoted the lieutenant, but they were the two
Speaker 3: lead investigators for the Atlants And Police Department on that
Speaker 3: initial missing person case. Marche so Young.
Speaker 5: Right now, with this, Rick Westgate and Dean Tucker, now,
Speaker 5: how were they then involved with the recent events with
Speaker 5: the thirteen and the fourteen year old, the Gilbert the
Speaker 5: Gilbert brother and sister. So how did police proceed with
Speaker 5: that prosecution.
Speaker 3: Well, once Don Miller was a staid eighteen months after
Speaker 3: Martha Sue Young had come up missing, really that case
Speaker 3: was separate from any of the East Lansing cases. East
Speaker 3: Lansing is located in Ingham County, which is where Lancing,
Speaker 3: the county seat I'm sorry, not the county seat, but
Speaker 3: the state capitol is located. Eaton County, where the rape
Speaker 3: of Lisa Gilbert and the attempt to murder of her
Speaker 3: and Randy occurred, is literally on the border of Ingham County.
Speaker 3: It's the next county to the west, so you really
Speaker 3: have two jurisdictions there. So the prosecution of Don Miller
Speaker 3: for the rape and attempted murder of the teenagers occurred
Speaker 3: in Eaton County, and so they brought in their own
Speaker 3: detectives who investigated the rape and the attempted murders, while
Speaker 3: at the same time, the East Lansing Police, the Michigan
Speaker 3: State University Police, and the Ingram County Sheriff's Department all
Speaker 3: became involved even more actively in trying to find evidence
Speaker 3: that Miller was somehow tied into the disappearance of Martha
Speaker 3: Sue Young and three other missing women.
Speaker 5: Now, when we talk, when we go back to the
Speaker 5: Martha Sue Young, to the mother Sue Young, her father
Speaker 5: Lee lived out of state. But also what's crucial to
Speaker 5: this story is the actions, behavior, and maybe even the
Speaker 5: attitude of Jean Miller, Don Miller's father and his mother.
Speaker 5: I believe Elaine. So just as you write in the book,
Speaker 5: explain sort of the interaction between the Miller family and
Speaker 5: police in terms of asking questions about Don and especially
Speaker 5: that evening in questions.
Speaker 3: Well, the Milbers, Jane and Elaine, we were friends with
Speaker 3: the Young family because they all went to the same church,
Speaker 3: and that's how Don became acquainted with Martha Sue. When
Speaker 3: this investigation began into Martha Sue's disappearance, police questioned Don
Speaker 3: and basically he was very stoic in his responses. He
Speaker 3: didn't offer anything to them unless he was asked a
Speaker 3: specific question. And so the police, after speaking with him
Speaker 3: at the house, they had him come in that afternoon
Speaker 3: for an interview. They weren't satisfied with his answers, so
Speaker 3: they went back over to his parents' house and said, hey,
Speaker 3: can we can we look in your car?
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Speaker 3: No personess is every dvoidvery by lost in terms of
Speaker 3: you know, maybe she dropped her keys and that's why
Speaker 3: she didn't go home last night. And both Don and
Speaker 3: Jean were like, well, sure. The police says they got
Speaker 3: into the vehicle, they found a blood spot on the
Speaker 3: front seat, and so things began to get more and
Speaker 3: more suspicious, and they began to focus a little bit
Speaker 3: more on done. After two or three days, Don came
Speaker 3: in for a polygraph exam why detector test, which he failed,
Speaker 3: and as the police wanted to talk to him more
Speaker 3: and more, Gene Miller became, I'm going to say more
Speaker 3: defensive of his son, and he basically said, I'm going
Speaker 3: to hire an attorney, and he did. He hired an
Speaker 3: attorney by the name of Bengston, and Benston's said, because
Speaker 3: he's out, he's hired to look out for his client's' rights.
Speaker 3: And he said, you're not going to talk to my
Speaker 3: client anymore unless you go through me first. And so
Speaker 3: the hands of the Atlantic police department were tied at
Speaker 3: that point. They were allowed one interview one additional interview
Speaker 3: with Tom Benston present, but their questions had to be
Speaker 3: handwritten and Benston was able to review those before any
Speaker 3: before Don was asked to answer them. So it became
Speaker 3: kind of a cat and mouse game, if you will,
Speaker 3: in that the police suspected Miller. I think deep down
Speaker 3: they knew that he probably had killed Martha Sue, but
Speaker 3: they couldn't prove it, and by Gene Miller hiring Tom Benkston,
Speaker 3: they couldn't. They couldn't interview Miller anymore, and they had
Speaker 3: no body, They had no evidence at that point, so
Speaker 3: their hands were tied.
Speaker 5: They did get to speak to Sue Young, and she
Speaker 5: did say some very interesting things early on about Don
Speaker 5: Miller's supposed religiosity and some of the things he said
Speaker 5: regarding God and God's will in terms of the relationship
Speaker 5: between Martha and him.
Speaker 3: Yes, Don was Don was. I hate to use the
Speaker 3: term obsessed, but everything in Don's life revolved around his
Speaker 3: Christianity or his legend Christianity, and even in his relationship
Speaker 3: with Martha Sue Young, he would tell her that it
Speaker 3: was God's will that they be married, and that if
Speaker 3: she did mary him, she was going against God's will.
Speaker 3: And he would he would write her letters and talk
Speaker 3: about his Christianity. It was just very odd to her,
Speaker 3: and he would it would come up in the middle
Speaker 3: of a conversation as they were speaking, he'd throw in
Speaker 3: some Christianity or religion. And so that became a concern
Speaker 3: of hers. Two. She was concerned that he didn't really
Speaker 3: have a full time job, even though he was a
Speaker 3: graduate of the Michigan State University School of Criminal Justice.
Speaker 3: You know, he was working as a security guard. Actually
Speaker 3: at that point he hadn't even gotten that job. He
Speaker 3: was seeking a job as a security guard. So yeah,
Speaker 3: he had almost an obsession with Christianity. And does I
Speaker 3: would say does to this day.
Speaker 5: Now in terms of this disappearance of Martha Sue Young.
Speaker 5: They police believe that he's a suspect, and now he
Speaker 5: has an attorney representing the family, So what else do
Speaker 5: they try to do in futility? But what do they
Speaker 5: try to do regardless of that attorney being.
Speaker 3: Involved, Well, basically it's a missing person's case. Even though
Speaker 3: they suspect, there's more to it than that. They did
Speaker 3: a background on Martha. They knew that she was supposed
Speaker 3: to beget a brand new job right after the first
Speaker 3: of the year. They knew that she'd left one hundred
Speaker 3: and twenty five dollars check in her top dresser drawer
Speaker 3: that was from her mother. There was absolutely no reason
Speaker 3: for her to leave town voluntarily. So basically they were
Speaker 3: trying to show, hey, this girl has no reason to
Speaker 3: run away or to leave. There's no indication that she
Speaker 3: was going to leave all of her all of her
Speaker 3: things are still at her house. And so that was
Speaker 3: really the angle they had to take at that point
Speaker 3: because they had no physical evidence that there was any
Speaker 3: foul play, and with with not being able to talk
Speaker 3: to to Miller anymore, again, their hands are tied, so
Speaker 3: they're they're trying to do what they can, but it's
Speaker 3: a slowgo. What about.
Speaker 5: The police ask for a polygraph to be conducted, and
Speaker 5: what does What's his response?
Speaker 3: He takes the polygraph. As a matter of fact, he
Speaker 3: took two polygraphs and he failed both of them. Uh,
Speaker 3: and I say failed. The police were convinced that he
Speaker 3: was being deceptive. They didn't come right out and say
Speaker 3: that he was lying, that he was being deceptive in
Speaker 3: his answers, But a polygraph in under Michigan law, you know,
Speaker 3: you couldn't use that in a courtroom. It's simply a
Speaker 3: tool to use as a means to an end.
Speaker 5: Now, in terms of his timeline, in terms of what
Speaker 5: he said happened, what does he say he happened, In
Speaker 5: terms of that eleven thirty to two am, what is
Speaker 5: he supposed to have done? And then what's the investigation
Speaker 5: to confirm or refute that.
Speaker 6: He said that that they had after they watched a
Speaker 6: movie at his parents' house, they were going.
Speaker 3: To look at Christmas lights, and that's what they He
Speaker 3: said they parked a couple times and made out, and
Speaker 3: that he brought her back to the house at about
Speaker 3: one fifty five am, or a couple of minutes to two,
Speaker 3: and that she got out of the car, he gave
Speaker 3: her a little kiss, she sat down on the front porch,
Speaker 3: and he backed out of the driveway and left her
Speaker 3: sitting there. What was peculiar to the police was that
Speaker 3: it was eleven degrees outside with sixteen mile an hour winds.
Speaker 3: And you live in Canada, so you got to know
Speaker 3: sixteen mile an hour wins when it's eleven degrees outside,
Speaker 3: it's pretty cold. That seemed odd to them. Beyond that,
Speaker 3: they did look in Miller's car. By that time, he
Speaker 3: had taken her glasses and they were under the front
Speaker 3: and they missed those in their initial search of the car,
Speaker 3: and then Miller got rid of those right after that search,
Speaker 3: so they missed that. Miller stuck to his story, and
Speaker 3: then he said in a subsequent interview he changed his story,
Speaker 3: and he said that he had gone to the Trinity
Speaker 3: Church in the East Lansing with Martha Sue because they
Speaker 3: were going to go there and pick up his sister
Speaker 3: who was supposedly there for New Year's Eve service. Police
Speaker 3: interviewed the pastor at the church and he said, well,
Speaker 3: the only people that were here were adults. There were
Speaker 3: no kids here. It was a small crowd, and I
Speaker 3: would have noticed if there was younger, you know, college
Speaker 3: age students here, I would have noticed that. And so
Speaker 3: they spoke with Miller, his mother, they spoke with his sister,
Speaker 3: and they were able to show that, in fact, there
Speaker 3: was a service there, but it was in the basement.
Speaker 3: Miller said to the police that when he had gone
Speaker 3: to the church, that he went in the main sanctuary,
Speaker 3: on the main floor and everybody was standing up singing,
Speaker 3: So they basically caught him in a lie. At that point,
Speaker 3: they caught him in a lie, and that came up
Speaker 3: again in a grand jury investigation when they confronted his sister.
Speaker 3: You're right.
Speaker 5: By May of that year, the reward they had put
Speaker 5: on a reward, that reward had expired. There was a
Speaker 5: few leads were followed up with was nothing. The investigation
Speaker 5: slows to a snails pasue right. And then in Clinton
Speaker 5: County's bath township, two hunters found clothing eerily laid out
Speaker 5: like a body, orange and red colored pants, pantyhose inside
Speaker 5: and panties inside the panty hose. But the clothing there
Speaker 5: a long time. A couple of sweaters of bra, scarf,
Speaker 5: then also a purse an id was found. Tell us
Speaker 5: what those hunters found.
Speaker 3: Well, they had gone pheasant hunting. It was two buddies
Speaker 3: that worked at the local GM plant and they were
Speaker 3: out pheasant hunting that day and they came across these
Speaker 3: this set of clothes that literally was laid out like
Speaker 3: a body, and it was almost as if someone had
Speaker 3: been in those clothes and just simply disappeared. The bra
Speaker 3: was inside two sweaters. The sweater was inside a coat,
Speaker 3: you know, the sleeves were tucked down inside the sleeves
Speaker 3: of the coat. The panties were inside the pants. They
Speaker 3: were at the base of the at the base of
Speaker 3: the coat. The shoes were were at the bottom of
Speaker 3: the pants. And it was as if literally someone had
Speaker 3: been laying there and just vanished. And there was a
Speaker 3: purse there, and they looked in the purse and discovered
Speaker 3: the identification of Martha Sue Young, and one of them
Speaker 3: realized that she was the missing person from ten months earlier. So,
Speaker 3: and I don't know why they did this, but they
Speaker 3: finished their little hunting excursion, and then they went to
Speaker 3: a local party store and called the police, and obviously
Speaker 3: the state police came out, the East Lansing Police, and
Speaker 3: that was collected as evidence. It was clear that the
Speaker 3: clothing had been there a while because there was some
Speaker 3: small saplings that were growing up through the sweater, so
Speaker 3: they knew the clothing had been there for a long time,
Speaker 3: and it was Martha Souex Young's clothing, But there was
Speaker 3: still nobody that basically conforms not only to them, but
Speaker 3: also to Martha's mother, Sue, that.
Speaker 5: She was dead, Yeah, you say, Also, investigations seems stalled.
Speaker 5: And then we have the disappearance of Marita Choquette, a
Speaker 5: twenty seven year old Bachelor of Arts in English, wanted
Speaker 5: to write for a law magazine. She has a couple sisters,
Speaker 5: very close with their family, a brief two year marriage,
Speaker 5: and she spoke of a man she met who was married,
Speaker 5: and her friend advised her not to see him. So
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about what happens with Marita
Speaker 5: Choquette and her disappearance.
Speaker 3: Marita was she worked for the Michigan State University radio
Speaker 3: station WKAAR, and she lived in the small town of
Speaker 3: Graham Ledge, which is in Eaton County, near the northeast
Speaker 3: corner of the county, and that's literally where she was
Speaker 3: last seen. Her dad was a minister up in Fremont, Michigan,
Speaker 3: and when he didn't hear from her, he called a
Speaker 3: friend of hers to go see if if she was home,
Speaker 3: maybe she was sick, And the friend knocked and there
Speaker 3: was no answer and said she wasn't there. So the
Speaker 3: next day the minister called the grand Ledge Police Department,
Speaker 3: and so the grand Ledge Police Department began a missing
Speaker 3: person investigation. And then the following morning w Kair, one
Speaker 3: of the employees pulled in and noticed Marita's car there,
Speaker 3: and it was parked in an unusual spot. She normally
Speaker 3: parked in a specific spot, and she was nowhere to
Speaker 3: be found. She wasn't in the building, her lunch wasn't there.
Speaker 3: And so they made the connection with the Grand Ledged
Speaker 3: Police Department and they said, yeah, her dad had called,
Speaker 3: and so they began an investigation grand Ledge Police and
Speaker 3: the Michigan State University Police into Mariita's disappearance. Marita had
Speaker 3: This was actually eight months after the clothing of Martha
Speaker 3: Sue Young was found in actually eighteen months after Martha
Speaker 3: Sooux Young had come up missing. So it's been quite
Speaker 3: some time, and police had not now that they had
Speaker 3: Mariita missing. They hadn't made the correlation between the two.
Speaker 3: There was no connection that the two cases we were
Speaker 3: similar at that point, and and Mariita did she'd spoken
Speaker 3: with a friend of hers. She wanted a relationship. She
Speaker 3: had been married very briefly to a guy and they
Speaker 3: had divorced after a short period. She wanted a relationship,
Speaker 3: by all accounts, and she'd run across the guy at
Speaker 3: a local tire repair store, and he suggested maybe that
Speaker 3: they get together for a cup of coffee, but she
Speaker 3: had found out that he was married, and it wasn't
Speaker 3: Don Miller, I can tell you that. But so that's
Speaker 3: how Marita's case began to evolve.
Speaker 5: You write that, regardless of whether there's a definitive link,
Speaker 5: there is surveillance put on Miller. And when that surveillance
Speaker 5: is on Miller, what does a witness see him doing
Speaker 5: regarding his car?
Speaker 3: Well, on the day I'm almost certain it was the
Speaker 3: day that Marita's body was found. Her body was found
Speaker 3: two weeks after on the initial report of her disappearance,
Speaker 3: So you had Martha sum missing. Marita was missing for
Speaker 3: two weeks, but they did locate her body, and that
Speaker 3: particular day, Miller was under surveillance and they saw that
Speaker 3: he was scrubbing the front seat of his car, the
Speaker 3: back portion of the front seat of his car on
Speaker 3: the passenger side.
Speaker 5: Mm hmmm, which you right about.
Speaker 3: I was just going to say to to me in
Speaker 3: my career, we call this a clue.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you right. Yeah. You write that that she was
Speaker 5: found nude from the waist up, but very interestingly, her
Speaker 5: hands were cut off tell us about whether those hands
Speaker 5: were found and what do people observing, professionals, police looking
Speaker 5: at the situation, at the crime scene, what do they
Speaker 5: think there are aspects of this present.
Speaker 3: Well, when she was found, her body was covered with
Speaker 3: bricks and I want to describe him as slabs of
Speaker 3: concrete used to build the side of a silo, a
Speaker 3: farm silo. So her body was buried. As the investigators
Speaker 3: began to take those bricks away and document the evidence,
Speaker 3: they discovered that her hands had been cut off and
Speaker 3: they were found under another small set of bricks, and
Speaker 3: they were literally in a almost as if they were praying.
Speaker 3: And so when the forensic pathologists looked at those he said, Wow,
Speaker 3: the whoever cut her hands off with this precision made
Speaker 3: him wonder if it wasn't maybe a health professional or
Speaker 3: somebody like that. So they had they had her hands
Speaker 3: cut off in a praying fashion. They had what they
Speaker 3: believed the way that the bricks were stacked, maybe an
Speaker 3: altar of some sort. So they began to think maybe
Speaker 3: this was a religious killing. Uh, there was a There
Speaker 3: was all sorts of theories at that point, and in
Speaker 3: the end it boiled down to one simple reason that
Speaker 3: her hands were cut off. Mm hmm.
Speaker 5: Now at the same time, what's interesting about this is
Speaker 5: that this is in the area of the Michigan State
Speaker 5: University campus. A couple of these bodies of a couple
Speaker 5: of people are connected to this campus. Now, this Wendy Bush,
Speaker 5: apparently another blonde, doesn't it, hadn't heard, apparently of these
Speaker 5: other two women who had gone missing, wasn't aware. She
Speaker 5: agrees to a ride, tell us what happens and who
Speaker 5: the driver is.
Speaker 3: Well, on the day that Maria Choquat's body was found,
Speaker 3: Wendy Bush, another MSU co ed, was on the MSU campus,
Speaker 3: and she was actually last seen with with with a
Speaker 3: man kind of generally fitting Don Miller's description. But she
Speaker 3: was walking back to Case Hall, which is a dorm
Speaker 3: on the MSU campus, and Don Miller was out hunting,
Speaker 3: if you will, and he saw her walking and she
Speaker 3: accepted a ride with him, and he pulled into Case Hall,
Speaker 3: into the parking lot. And by all accounts that I
Speaker 3: read and researched, Wendy was a very talkative person, somewhat flirtatious,
Speaker 3: a kind of let a free lifestyle. And I don't
Speaker 3: say that in a negative way. She's just she wasn't
Speaker 3: as conservative maybe as some, and Miller hated that. Miller
Speaker 3: hated women, and he placed his hand on her shoulder
Speaker 3: and then suddenly grabbed her around the throat and strangled her.
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Speaker 5: Now you talked about Wendy Bush. Now he's killed Wendy Bush,
Speaker 5: he strangled her. And then meanwhile, this what we have
Speaker 5: to explain is that meanwhile there is all of these
Speaker 5: other things going on. And then interestingly, the Tom Bankston
Speaker 5: who's been represented the family has secured him as for
Speaker 5: the family to make sure that their son's rights are protected.
Speaker 5: He is asked at that time, once he gets the
Speaker 5: news about his client now having these far more serious charges,
Speaker 5: even more serious charges, what does that lawyer say about
Speaker 5: his client's potential guilt.
Speaker 3: Well, he didn't, he didn't think that. When Miller was
Speaker 3: arrested two months after Wendy Bush's murder and two days
Speaker 3: after Christine Stewart's disappearance, Thingston wondered how it was that
Speaker 3: police thought that he was responsible for those disappearances and
Speaker 3: and and that murder. I'm sorry that rape and attempted
Speaker 3: murder of the Gilbert children. When when the other when
Speaker 3: Marita Chilqutt's body was discovered and he heard about that,
Speaker 3: he made no connection with his client. He didn't even
Speaker 3: think about it, he said. When I interviewed him, he said,
Speaker 3: I just figured out, well, whoever killed her has got
Speaker 3: some psychological problems. So he still was protecting his clients' rights.
Speaker 3: And he wondered how the police had come up with this,
Speaker 3: this theory that Miller had attacked the Gilbert children.
Speaker 5: What about this Reverend Mittman and Marita's car?
Speaker 3: What does he find that was interesting? After Marita's initial
Speaker 3: missing person case was filed, the police seized her car and.
Speaker 6: It was.
Speaker 3: It was searched and they didn't they didn't find anything,
Speaker 3: but uh, they had to take it to the gas
Speaker 3: station for some repairs, and and Mittman went to pick
Speaker 3: it up afterward, and he discovered a knife on the
Speaker 3: front seat and so he reported it and the police
Speaker 3: were like, a knife, Well, how could they have missed
Speaker 3: that at the crime lab? You know, there's there's no way.
Speaker 3: And so they checked and they said, yeah, that knife
Speaker 3: wasn't there when when the car was here, and so
Speaker 3: they began to backtrack and they actually went back to
Speaker 3: the gas station and they said, oh, yeah, that looks
Speaker 3: like a knife that we give away as a promotional thing,
Speaker 3: a steak knife that we give away as a promotional
Speaker 3: thing to our customers. And it turned out it was
Speaker 3: one of the one of the mechanics at the gas
Speaker 3: station had actually used a promotional knife to cut off
Speaker 3: a fuel line to repair it so that Mittman could
Speaker 3: pick up the cars. So it was just a series
Speaker 3: of odd coincidences that really had absolutely nothing to do
Speaker 3: with the murder.
Speaker 5: And also a little well not a little deta what
Speaker 5: a lead that looked pretty promising, as the pastor said,
Speaker 5: there was a guy named Kensington and they should look
Speaker 5: into his background. So when they did, they saw that
Speaker 5: he was arrested for assault and that's been at the
Speaker 5: Kalamazoo State Hospital. What about this questioning? And he did
Speaker 5: look good at in the beginning, but it happens with
Speaker 5: him as a suspect.
Speaker 3: He did look good. I can tell you that when
Speaker 3: I interviewed the detective that worked on that case, he said,
Speaker 3: we thought he did it. We thought he was a
Speaker 3: very very good suspect, and they interviewed him and he was,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say, for purposes of this interview, a little
Speaker 3: on the high strung side. He smoked repeatedly, one cigarette
Speaker 3: right after the other. He'd smoked him right down to
Speaker 3: a nub. He had kind of a odd background, family life,
Speaker 3: things like that, and he'd made some statements about taking
Speaker 3: a life, that was people had the right to take
Speaker 3: a life, or something to that effect. And so they
Speaker 3: thought seriously that that he was he was a good suspect.
Speaker 3: The boy they worked on him as a suspect, the
Speaker 3: less enthused they became about him being involved. And by
Speaker 3: that time things had already accelerated with Christine Stewart's disappearance
Speaker 3: in the Gilbert Children, so they kind of refocused their
Speaker 3: investigation after that.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about the Kristin Stewart disappearance.
Speaker 5: She's married to a guy named Ernie Mary for eight
Speaker 5: years and reported her missing and we haven't there's been.
Speaker 5: These are extensive searches, air search, a ground search in
Speaker 5: these cases as well. So what happens with this what
Speaker 5: do they find, if anything? In the Christian Stewart case.
Speaker 3: Well, what happened with Christine was she had taken her
Speaker 3: car to a downtown Lansing auto repair shop for some bodywork,
Speaker 3: and she took the bus back to a shopping area
Speaker 3: it's called Frandor near East Lansing in the MSU campus,
Speaker 3: and she was going to walk from there up to
Speaker 3: her house, which was just like a mile up the road.
Speaker 3: And she was walking up there and she disappeared. Ernie
Speaker 3: got home from work that night and it was clear
Speaker 3: the dog hadn't been let out all day. There were
Speaker 3: things that normally would have been done that weren't, and
Speaker 3: so he called the East Lansing Police Department that night
Speaker 3: and they said, well, there's really you know, she has
Speaker 3: to be missing for twenty four hours and there's really
Speaker 3: nothing we would be able to do tonight, but police
Speaker 3: call back tomorrow morning if she doesn't show up. So
Speaker 3: by five thirty or six am, she still wasn't home,
Speaker 3: and he called, and so East Lansing Police began their
Speaker 3: investigation into her disciplate parents. So now you have Martasu
Speaker 3: missing eighteen months earlier, you have Marita Choquette who was missing,
Speaker 3: whose body was found stabbed and her hands cut off,
Speaker 3: and you have Wendy Bush missing. Now you have Christine
Speaker 3: Stewart missing, and the Atlantian Police Department have now put
Speaker 3: two and two together and they realize, hey, there's somebody
Speaker 3: going around killing women. So they organize air search foot search.
Speaker 3: They're checking the route that she would have taken, and
Speaker 3: they discover her glasses. They're able to quickly identify them
Speaker 3: as hers. They go to the shop where they were
Speaker 3: bought and there's a way of tracking the serial numbers
Speaker 3: on them, and they prove that those are her glasses.
Speaker 3: There's also a skid mark in the street right where
Speaker 3: her glasses found and they don't know if it's related
Speaker 3: to her disappearance or what. So they begin this investigation,
Speaker 3: and then two days later, as they're delving into it,
Speaker 3: Don Miller breaks into the Gilbert home and rapes Lisa Gilbert,
Speaker 3: who tries to kill her and her brother, and is arrested.
Speaker 3: And that's when this whole, this whole mess begins to
Speaker 3: come together.
Speaker 5: He's ay arrested. He speaks briefly, you say, just in
Speaker 5: the vehicle about powers controlling his mind, but I didn't
Speaker 5: say too much. They took swabs from him, so they
Speaker 5: want warrants for his body, hair, blood's live of perspiration, urine.
Speaker 5: What do they find in the car? It's very interesting,
Speaker 5: especially in the trunk.
Speaker 3: Well they found they found a chain that was wire together,
Speaker 3: almost as if it would be used to restrain someone.
Speaker 3: They found some rubber gloves, they found some one piece
Speaker 3: disposable suits, all just odd things that there was. Actually
Speaker 3: there was a tent in there. They were able to
Speaker 3: track back to where he had gone camping the week before.
Speaker 3: But the rubber gloves, the disposable suits, the chain tied together.
Speaker 3: They made note of all that. They were able to
Speaker 3: vacuum the car for hair and trace fiber evidence. All
Speaker 3: the while, Miller's sitting in jail and they do an
Speaker 3: initial interview with him, and basically he tells them nothing
Speaker 3: other than he was shopping that day. It couldn't have
Speaker 3: been him. He's a Christian. He doesn't know how they
Speaker 3: got the description of him. He doesn't know how they
Speaker 3: got his license plate number. And there was two investigators
Speaker 3: interviewing him, and one of those investigators is a friend
Speaker 3: of mine. His name is Norm Kelly, and Norm Kelly
Speaker 3: was probably one of the finest interrogators I've ever known.
Speaker 3: And Norm had a very easy going ability to interview people.
Speaker 3: The guy that was with him had just been promoted
Speaker 3: to lieutenant detective lieutenant, and he didn't have the skills
Speaker 3: that Norm Kelly did, and so it was kind of like,
Speaker 3: I'm going to use the term good cop, bad cop
Speaker 3: when they were interviewing him. And finally the detective lieutenant said, look,
Speaker 3: we got your cold hand, we've got your license number,
Speaker 3: we know you did it, and Miller clammed right up
Speaker 3: and he said, I don't want to talk to you anymore.
Speaker 3: And that was the end of it. And Norm Kelly
Speaker 3: to this day thinks that if he'da had a little
Speaker 3: more time, he would have gotten down the order to
Speaker 3: confess right right?
Speaker 5: What was it about? What was it about that interview
Speaker 5: that gave him that kind of optimism that he could
Speaker 5: elicit a confession from him?
Speaker 3: Honestly, I believe that it was probably because I've seen
Speaker 3: Norm work, and with thirty years law enforcement experience, you
Speaker 3: just get a feeling when somebody's going to crack, and
Speaker 3: I suspect, although I wasn't there, that Don probably was
Speaker 3: getting a little nervous and his response, at least his
Speaker 3: body language was showing that. And Norm was certain that
Speaker 3: if he could continue the interview, he would get him
Speaker 3: to crack, and unfortunately Miller said, no, I don't want
Speaker 3: to talk to you anymore.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Now, at the same time, and this is a
Speaker 5: common ploy, but they happen to have a stick of
Speaker 5: a maximum security and there's an inmate named Ron Rainey,
Speaker 5: and right away, according to Ranny, what does Miller discuss?
Speaker 3: Actually, Ron Rainey was another friend of mine because I
Speaker 3: worked at Eaton County. Ron Rainey was Oh, that's okay.
Speaker 3: Ron was a corrections officer.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 3: The person that right, the inmate you're referring to is
Speaker 3: mister boilerd That's right, that's right. And the way that
Speaker 3: the jail was set up in maximum security, they would
Speaker 3: roll out at TV and it was all bars back
Speaker 3: then in the late seventies. It was just a horrific place.
Speaker 3: But they would roll out the TV and set it
Speaker 3: between the cells so that inmates could watch the news.
Speaker 3: And Boilard had watched the story about Miller about his arrest,
Speaker 3: and about that same time they were bringing Miller in
Speaker 3: and so they struck up a conversation and Miller made
Speaker 3: the statement to him that he should have done away
Speaker 3: with the kids like he did his girlfriend, and Boilard
Speaker 3: remembered that he was a key witness in the case, and.
Speaker 5: Like other people, that he was not offered any concession
Speaker 5: anything for his testimony. Was he wasn't he No?
Speaker 3: As a matter of fact. Maybe this is where he
Speaker 3: got a little confused with Ron Rainey because I mentioned
Speaker 3: him in the book. He went specifically to Ron Rainey
Speaker 3: because Ron Rainey had a rapport with a lot of
Speaker 3: the inmates, and Boiler felt he could trust him. And
Speaker 3: Rainy then took it up the chain of command, if
Speaker 3: you will, and ran Kelly came in and interviewed mister Boiler.
Speaker 5: Another interesting development is that you have the head of
Speaker 5: the Sex Motivated Crimes Unit, Lieutenant Darryl Pope. He had
Speaker 5: studied these kinds of murderers in his mind for eleven
Speaker 5: years and he'd profiled thirty two men for murder for
Speaker 5: sexual gratification. So tell us what Darryl Pope thought about
Speaker 5: Donald Miller.
Speaker 3: Well, Detective Pope was sort of behavioral science specialist for MSP.
Speaker 3: He had studied murders involving sexual gratification and he felt
Speaker 3: that because of the way that the Chiquette homicide scene
Speaker 3: had looked and the way that the other women had
Speaker 3: come up missing, that they were all related, and that
Speaker 3: the stabbing of Maria Chiquette was significant in that it
Speaker 3: represented male penis, and that the blood that would would
Speaker 3: be coming from Marita's body would be significant in the investigation.
Speaker 3: It's a very complex procedure that he went through trying
Speaker 3: to explain and tie all of these together, including the
Speaker 3: assault on Lisa Gilbert and her brother Randy. He was
Speaker 3: able to tie all those together, at least his opinion,
Speaker 3: and use that in uh obtaining a search warrant for
Speaker 3: the for the Miller home.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. What interesting items did they find at the
Speaker 5: Miller home.
Speaker 3: At the Miller home they found a painting and there's
Speaker 3: an old newspaper article that shows it. It shows a
Speaker 3: pair of hands in a prayer. I believe they're in
Speaker 3: a praying fashion. It's just a very dark, dark painting.
Speaker 3: There was some news articles about the missing women.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: There was news articles about I think some missing boy
Speaker 3: scouts if I'm not mistaken, and just some very odd things,
Speaker 3: all of which wanted to pourting the investigation into these
Speaker 3: missing women. I think the painting was the big thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Angel and chains yeah, and also the Bible, handcuffs
Speaker 5: and the box with nylons.
Speaker 3: Even the handcuffs. I have to tell you about the handcuffs,
Speaker 3: and I apologize for that. The handcuffs were the handcuffs
Speaker 3: that he carried that were issued to him as a
Speaker 3: security guard, and police were finally able to determine when
Speaker 3: they discovered the handcuffs at his parents' house in his
Speaker 3: room that they were double locked. With that being said
Speaker 3: that means they can't be undone unless you have the key.
Speaker 3: The theory is was handcuffed and he had either lost
Speaker 3: the key or didn't have it with him, and so
Speaker 3: he took his knife after he had stabbed her I
Speaker 3: think nineteen times and cut her hands off so that
Speaker 3: he could take the handcuffs with them, because he knew
Speaker 3: that police would be able to track the serial number
Speaker 3: on those handcuffs and determine that they were issued to him.
Speaker 5: Also at the house. Though, there were some interesting things
Speaker 5: to support Lieutenant Pope's assertions. There was magazines referencing Satan
Speaker 5: about a paper written about rape and voodoo, a shovel
Speaker 5: with some hair on it, clippings again about clippings about
Speaker 5: murders and missing very interesting evidence to say the least.
Speaker 3: Right, and I have to tell you that I was
Speaker 3: not able to look at the transcripts from the grand
Speaker 3: jury investigation. I have to wonder if some of that
Speaker 3: evidence wasn't introduced at those grand jury hearings, and so
Speaker 3: that they may have been. They were all very significant
Speaker 3: in the investigation. The knotted nylons that you mentioned, the
Speaker 3: articles all leading, all leading to exactly what detected Pope
Speaker 3: had described in the search for.
Speaker 5: Right now, let's talk about because there is a lot
Speaker 5: to talk about when once he is arrested and charged,
Speaker 5: because there's a couple separate trials, there's preliminaries that are
Speaker 5: to me very much Some preliminaries in murder cases don't
Speaker 5: have the kind of testimony that this preliminary did. It
Speaker 5: preliminary seemed very much like, very much like a trial,
Speaker 5: whereas some preliminaries are just a what we can say
Speaker 5: a preliminary in terms of not much as introduced at
Speaker 5: the preliminary as sort of a strategy or out of necessity.
Speaker 5: In this case, the preliminaries were very very important and
Speaker 5: almost short trials themselves before the actual trial and.
Speaker 3: Go ahead, Sorry, well, I was just going to say.
Speaker 3: A preliminary examination is typically it's a hearing where all
Speaker 3: that has to be shown is that a crime was
Speaker 3: committed and that there's reasonable cause to believe that the
Speaker 3: defendant committed it. And typically what will happen is the
Speaker 3: prosecuting attorney will call basically the one or two, maybe
Speaker 3: three witnesses to show, hey, the crime has been committed
Speaker 3: and we think that this person did it because of this,
Speaker 3: that and the other thing. They don't have to present
Speaker 3: any evidence or anything like that. The defense, on the
Speaker 3: other hand, a lot of will use a preliminary examination
Speaker 3: as a fact finding effort, if you will, just kind
Speaker 3: of see what the prosecution's got, and then they can
Speaker 3: use that testimony to impeach witnesses down down the road.
Speaker 3: But in this particular case, with the miller being charged
Speaker 3: in the rape of the Gilbert girl and trying to
Speaker 3: kill her and her brother, they brought in Lisa and
Speaker 3: Randy and her dad, and basically that's all they needed
Speaker 3: at that point. In the trial, they brought in the
Speaker 3: you know, all the evidence, the detectives, and in the trial,
Speaker 3: the defense brought in all their psychological experts, psychiatrists, to
Speaker 3: claim that Miller was insane. Once once the it became
Speaker 3: known that Miller's fingerprint was found inside the Gilbert home, Right,
Speaker 3: Benston knew the only defense he would have would be
Speaker 3: an insanity defense. And again, understand, I was just going
Speaker 3: to add that again, understand that at this point, Marcasue Young,
Speaker 3: Wendy Bush, and Christine Stewart are all still missing.
Speaker 5: Right, And you also cite that. I believe Peter Hawke
Speaker 5: comments that, you know, prosecution conviction without a body is
Speaker 5: so rare that he writes, there's only been four in
Speaker 5: the world that have been successful.
Speaker 3: Correct, It's incredible. It's that time. Yeah, at that time,
Speaker 3: that was exactly right. And once they they had a
Speaker 3: grand jury look into this after actually this was at
Speaker 3: the time or just before Miller's trial for the rape,
Speaker 3: they in paneled a grand jury, and the grand jury
Speaker 3: indicted Miller in the deaths of Marcus Stewart. I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: Mark so Young and Christine Stewart. Yeah, And Peter Hout
Speaker 3: told me when I interviewed him, he said, we were
Speaker 3: certain that we could get a conviction without the bodies,
Speaker 3: but we knew that it would be overturned in the
Speaker 3: court of appeals, and so after after Miller's conviction in
Speaker 3: the rape and after he went to prison, that's when,
Speaker 3: as his trial was approaching for two counts of second
Speaker 3: degree murder, they knew they couldn't show first degree murder,
Speaker 3: but for those two women. As that approach, that's when
Speaker 3: the idea of the plea deal came up to try
Speaker 3: to find the bodies for the families.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. Now, so it's very interesting too to see
Speaker 5: two trials going on at the same time in terms
Speaker 5: of the grand juries and paneled, but two separate things
Speaker 5: going on in Don Miller's life in terms of his
Speaker 5: criminal career. We haven't talked about his demeanor through all
Speaker 5: of this, how he responded to this kind of incredible pressure.
Speaker 3: He's very he's very quiet, he's very stoic. There was
Speaker 3: a point in This is not in the book, because
Speaker 3: I'm just going to share something with you that a
Speaker 3: lot of people don't know. I've talked to Gene Miller
Speaker 3: several times, Tom's dad, and when we were talking face
Speaker 3: to face, he said there was a point where I
Speaker 3: was talking to him at the jail. This is Jene
Speaker 3: talking to me, He says, I was talking to Don
Speaker 3: at the jail and we were coming up with, you know,
Speaker 3: this defense, and Benston was there and Don reached out
Speaker 3: and touched my hand and said, it's okay. Then almost
Speaker 3: as if okay, Dad, I just I did it. That's
Speaker 3: the way that it was explained to me by Gene
Speaker 3: Miller's so. But Don was a very very quiet individual
Speaker 3: and there wasn't a lot of show or anything like that,
Speaker 3: not a lot of pomp and circumstance, if you will,
Speaker 3: during his trial, at least on his part.
Speaker 5: Now we talk about this controversial deal that we mentioned it, Now,
Speaker 5: why is it controversial? And they had the they thought
Speaker 5: they had enough evidence to prosecute for Martha Sue Young
Speaker 5: and for Christine Stuart. So how do they tie the
Speaker 5: other Marita Coquette and Wendy Bush? How do they tie
Speaker 5: those together? And what is the controversial deal? And then
Speaker 5: what is so controversial about it if to other people?
Speaker 5: And because of the controversy, what does Peter how decide
Speaker 5: to do in terms of.
Speaker 3: What happened was when this deal? Understand that Don's been
Speaker 3: convicted in the rape of the Gilbert girl and he
Speaker 3: is now in prison and in Jackson Jackson Prison in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy nine, and his attorney is concerned because he
Speaker 3: has children of his own, and he knows that there's
Speaker 3: three missing women still and that the family wants closure,
Speaker 3: and so the suggestion is made for the regressive psychotherapy
Speaker 3: basically hypnosis, and so Miller agrees to that. But the
Speaker 3: caveat is that the defense attorney wants a lesser charge
Speaker 3: against Miller in the murders. So the deal is now
Speaker 3: he's facing two counts of second degree murder in the
Speaker 3: Martha Sue Young disappearance, in the Christine Stewart disappearance, nothing
Speaker 3: to do with Maria Choquette or Wendy Bush at that point,
Speaker 3: and so the deal is under centient guidelines in Michigan
Speaker 3: back then before truth and sentencing, if you were charged
Speaker 3: with the crime, you would you'd get good time knocked
Speaker 3: off your sentence. So if you just as hypothetical, if
Speaker 3: you got ten years in prison, you might be eligible
Speaker 3: for parole in five because of good time, right and
Speaker 3: so and and if you were charged with multiple offenses,
Speaker 3: your sentence would be served all at the same time.
Speaker 3: So if Miller was convicted of the second degree murders,
Speaker 3: even though he was imprisoned for the rape of the
Speaker 3: Gilbert girl. Then he wouldn't get any more time, he
Speaker 3: wouldn't serve any more time and would still be eligible
Speaker 3: for parole, so he couldn't say you any more time.
Speaker 3: So their concern is they want some sort of a
Speaker 3: death conviction on his record, and so they agree to
Speaker 3: charge him with two counts of involuntary manslaughter exchange for
Speaker 3: the location of the victims. And so he agrees to that,
Speaker 3: and they they hypnotize him, and actually, I'm going to
Speaker 3: back up, I don't recall if it was hypnosis or
Speaker 3: if it was the use of sodium amatol, which the
Speaker 3: street name is truth Serum, which basically it's just like
Speaker 3: giving someone eight shots of alcohol. And they begin to talk.
Speaker 3: So he admits that he kills Marcasue Young, and he
Speaker 3: admitted that he killed Christine Stewart and agrees to take
Speaker 3: him to the bodies. The following day, he admits to
Speaker 3: killing Maria Chilquette, and then on the last day he
Speaker 3: admitted to killing Wendy Bush and agreed to take him
Speaker 3: to her body also, so in exchange for the locations
Speaker 3: of the bodies, he gets I haven't recall off the
Speaker 3: top of my head what the sentence was for the
Speaker 3: involuntary manslaughter. But he's doing that time back in the
Speaker 3: late seventies at the same time he's doing his sentence
Speaker 3: for raping Lisa Gilbert.
Speaker 5: Right, So he's cooperative. And it was interesting too, because
Speaker 5: I guess they've had people play with them, you know, murderers.
Speaker 5: So they gave him one week bodies, so no fooling around,
Speaker 5: We want the location of these bodies in one week.
Speaker 3: Deals off otherwise, that's exactly right. They said, he's got
Speaker 3: to take us to the bodies, and it's got to
Speaker 3: be within a week, and otherwise the deals off and
Speaker 3: he's going to be charged or he's going to trial
Speaker 3: and to come it's a second degree murder. And so
Speaker 3: he agreed, and they loaded him up in a patrol
Speaker 3: car on one day and they went and they recovered
Speaker 3: Marcus Sue Young's remains, and they recovered Christine Stewart's remains,
Speaker 3: and then the following day they took him out and
Speaker 3: they recovered Wendy Bush's body.
Speaker 5: Now Peter who or how I mentioned, he is worried
Speaker 5: about this controversial deal and reaction from the public. So
Speaker 5: he writes an editorial. How does he explain this controversial
Speaker 5: fleet bargain to the public.
Speaker 3: Well, basically, the way that I took it is he
Speaker 3: uses common sense and he tells the public, look, I
Speaker 3: based my campaign, my election campaign because a prosecuting attorney
Speaker 3: in Michigan as an elected position, I based my campaign
Speaker 3: on doing away with plea bargain. But at the time
Speaker 3: I didn't know that I was going to be faced
Speaker 3: with a series of disappearances and no bodies and four
Speaker 3: investigations that are unparalleled in this state. He said, there
Speaker 3: was no way that Miller ever would have told where
Speaker 3: the bodies were without this deal, And the most important
Speaker 3: aspect of all was that the families of those three
Speaker 3: women that still hadn't been found needed some sort of closure.
Speaker 3: And he was exactly right. The problem becomes if you
Speaker 3: think about Miller gets twenty to thirty years for the
Speaker 3: rape of Lisa Gilbert and the attempted murder of her
Speaker 3: and her brother, and he's doing the crime or doing
Speaker 3: time for the two involuntary manslaughter plea bargain things at
Speaker 3: the same time, and everybody thinks, Okay, that's the end
Speaker 3: of it. We won't see him again until the late nineties.
Speaker 3: Twenty years later, when guess who's going to get out
Speaker 3: of prison? Don Miller. Then it becomes an issue again.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and what luckily happens? Will you talk about? I
Speaker 5: don't really believe in rehabilitation of these types of people
Speaker 5: at all, not whatsoever. But he goes through programs and everything.
Speaker 5: He's attending programs. He goes to a sex offender program
Speaker 5: and completes it. So you say that they have this dilemma,
Speaker 5: he's going to get out. What happens?
Speaker 3: Well, in nineteen ninety four, Don Miller is with a
Speaker 3: garrot in his prison dorm. And a garrot is a
Speaker 3: strangulation device. It is in this particular case, it's a
Speaker 3: seventy two inch shoelace that is available in the commissary
Speaker 3: at the prison. It's tied together so that it shortened
Speaker 3: to thirty six inches with a knot, and on the end,
Speaker 3: each end of it is two wooden barrel shaped buttons.
Speaker 3: You've probably seen him on winter coats, and the corrections
Speaker 3: officer that found that when he was doing a shakedown
Speaker 3: immediately identified it as a garat. He'd had training in
Speaker 3: identification of weapons, and so he took it to his superiors.
Speaker 3: They all agreed it was a garat. And now remember
Speaker 3: this is in nineteen ninety four, and so they take
Speaker 3: Miller's good time away and so he loses two years
Speaker 3: a good time. So in nineteen ninety eight, now that
Speaker 3: Miller has lost that good time and is approaching the
Speaker 3: point where he's going to get out of prison. Three
Speaker 3: years later, an organization is formed here in mid Michigan.
Speaker 3: It's called the Committee for Community Awareness and Protection, and
Speaker 3: it consists of attorneys, psychiatrists, survivors, corrections officers, and it
Speaker 3: was a committee basically to try to find a way
Speaker 3: to keep Don Miller in prison, this man who had
Speaker 3: murdered four women and attacked a fourteen year old girl.
Speaker 3: And Peter Hauk was part of that, and he said,
Speaker 3: you know, the best way to find out about a
Speaker 3: person's prison record is to look at their prison file,
Speaker 3: and so they did and they discovered this garat case
Speaker 3: that had occurred three years earlier. And the thing about
Speaker 3: it was that Miller was charged administratively through the prison,
Speaker 3: but he wasn't charged criminally with possessing a weapon inside
Speaker 3: the prison, which he could have been. And so the
Speaker 3: Eaton County prosecuting attorney who had a vested interest in
Speaker 3: Don Miller's release because that's where the Gilbert children lived
Speaker 3: in Eaton County, And so Don Miller was actually in
Speaker 3: prison up in Michigan's Upper Peninsula at a place called
Speaker 3: kin Ross, and Jeff Sawder, who was the Eaton County
Speaker 3: prosecutor in the late nineties, went to Chipwall County and
Speaker 3: convinced the Chipwah County prosecutor to file criminal charges against
Speaker 3: Miller for possess that garat, and he did, and so
Speaker 3: that case went to trial, and Tom Benston still represented
Speaker 3: Don Miller at that time, and the case went to trial,
Speaker 3: and the jury was not allowed to know what Don
Speaker 3: Miller was in prison for. They were not allowed to
Speaker 3: know that he had killed four women and had attacked
Speaker 3: a fourteen year old girl and tried to kill her
Speaker 3: and her brother. So they just knew he was in
Speaker 3: prison and that he was charged with the possessing this device,
Speaker 3: possessing that garat criminally. And when the jury found out
Speaker 3: that he was in prison after their verdict, when they
Speaker 3: found out that he was in prison for strangling four women,
Speaker 3: they were astounded that they hadn't been allowed to know
Speaker 3: they were. They said, we could have released him, you know,
Speaker 3: by finding it not guilty. We would have never known
Speaker 3: that he killed four women, and he'd be out on
Speaker 3: the streets. Well because of that conviction, he had also
Speaker 3: been charged as a habitual offender under Michigan law, and
Speaker 3: if there's a conviction for that, that allows the judge
Speaker 3: to go outside the sentencing guidelines. And so with that
Speaker 3: being said, the judge gave Don Miller another forty to
Speaker 3: sixty years in prison.
Speaker 5: Nice.
Speaker 3: So it's important to understand to your listeners. I know
Speaker 3: this is a very confusing case. But the fact of
Speaker 3: the matter is is that in twenty thirty one, the
Speaker 3: only reason that Don Miller is still in prison is
Speaker 3: because he possessed that strangulation device. He's already done his
Speaker 3: time for the two manslaughters and for the rape that
Speaker 3: was done in the late nineties. He had served his time.
Speaker 3: So the only reason he is still in prison is
Speaker 3: for possessing that garat and when he has served his
Speaker 3: time in twenty thirty one, Don Millen will be released
Speaker 3: back to an unsuspecting public.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting too, because there's so many things that
Speaker 5: it's like Canadian law. And then the concurrent sentencing, meaning
Speaker 5: it doesn't matter, it doesn't count. Then you have a
Speaker 5: plea deal because you have to, and then you have
Speaker 5: good time. So there is no truth in sentencing. Maybe
Speaker 5: they have not now, but there's certainly that is not
Speaker 5: truth in sentencing when people think, well, how's he going
Speaker 5: to get out thirty to fifty years, He'll be in
Speaker 5: there forever And meanwhile, that's not truth in sentencing. So
Speaker 5: also you write about a senate serial killer Bill six' four,
Speaker 5: nine what's what's happening with? That tell us about the
Speaker 5: genesis of that.
Speaker 3: Bill well back in when When Sue young was part
Speaker 3: Of she's Passed away by the, way and she was
Speaker 3: part OF, seacap The committee For Community awareness And, protection
Speaker 3: and one of the avenues they tried to take was
Speaker 3: to introduce legislation Under michigan law to keep dangerous offenders
Speaker 3: off the streets by having them evaluated by psychiatrists once
Speaker 3: their sentence was, done and if the psychiatrists deemed them
Speaker 3: still a, danger then there would be sort of a
Speaker 3: trial and a determined determination made at that point whether
Speaker 3: or not to keep them, institutionalized not necessarily at the,
Speaker 3: prison but institutionalized and try to get them. Rehabilitated that,
Speaker 3: way it, PASSED i, believe IF i recall, correctly it
Speaker 3: passed The, house but did not pass The, senate and
Speaker 3: that was the end of that. Bill there were a
Speaker 3: couple of states here in The United states had similar
Speaker 3: bills that they had only passed by narrow, margins and
Speaker 3: it's never been reintroduced or brought up. Again so beyond
Speaker 3: what happened back, THEN i don't think it's ever been
Speaker 3: approached again here In.
Speaker 5: Michigan it's incredible the effort that law enforcement and, prosecution
Speaker 5: the judicial, system witnesses that have to, endure the families
Speaker 5: have to endure these extensive investigations and then court cases
Speaker 5: and preliminaries of the ups and downs of all. That it's.
Speaker 5: Incredible the amount of effort to be able to put
Speaker 5: this pretty evidence serial killer away for a reasonable amount of.
Speaker 5: Time it is astonishing to. Me the incredible, effort, sacrifice
Speaker 5: and extraordinary events that occur that enable even the conviction
Speaker 5: in this. Case it is, extraordinary, really.
Speaker 3: It, is if you stop and think about, it in certain,
Speaker 3: States miller could have been put to. Death capital punishment
Speaker 3: is still still a viable option in certain states here
Speaker 3: in The United. States so in those situations he could
Speaker 3: have been he could have been, executing but instead he
Speaker 3: got you, KNOW i, HATE i hate to use this,
Speaker 3: term but he got the deal of the. Century he
Speaker 3: got a killer, deal pardon the. Pun, Yeah and had
Speaker 3: it not been for The garat, case he'd have been
Speaker 3: out twenty years ago walking the. STREETS i tell the,
Speaker 3: READER i tell the reader at the beginning of the
Speaker 3: book and the, preface there's a couple of. Questions you,
Speaker 3: know Should Don miller be? Released is he still a?
Speaker 3: Danger was the case against? Him regarding The garat entrived?
Speaker 3: Case the reader has to make that. DECISION i don't
Speaker 3: make any judgments About Don. NOR i let the story
Speaker 3: speak for itself and the reader can make those.
Speaker 5: DECISIONS i see what you're, doing. Too you're rather showing than.
Speaker 5: Telling but it really is pretty evident that this guy
Speaker 5: deserves to be locked, up and everybody that came in
Speaker 5: contact him with him knows that there's no when the
Speaker 5: doctors testified that he didn't know right from, wrong that
Speaker 5: he came up with an, idea that he bunked his
Speaker 5: head that day and couldn't, remember you, know the amnesia.
Speaker 5: Story so nothing he said was any kind of rationalization
Speaker 5: at all. Whatsoever he was not, insane he was not
Speaker 5: suffering from. Anything he's just no, psycho got the.
Speaker 3: Killer, yeah he actually admitted in his prison counseling sessions
Speaker 3: that that the story about the demons and his memory
Speaker 3: loss and that was all made.
Speaker 5: Up it made it sounded all made. Up it sounded
Speaker 5: completely contrived and ridiculous and. Juvenile And i've heard these
Speaker 5: kinds of wild stories before that not even for a
Speaker 5: second could you consider. Them it is.
Speaker 3: Ridiculous so, oh, exactly, Exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah he's definitely in where he deserves to. Be, now
Speaker 5: when is this parole? Date the? Men when do you
Speaker 5: believe he will he will be? Released he?
Speaker 3: Will, well he has a parole date next. Year, again
Speaker 3: AND i just talked to his dad a couple of days,
Speaker 3: ago and he said That don has not received any
Speaker 3: sort of a notice that he has a parole hearing next. Year,
Speaker 3: HOWEVER i think The Michigan department Of corrections indicates that
Speaker 3: his parole hearing is next. Year beyond, that if he
Speaker 3: doesn't get out next, year he is scheduled to be
Speaker 3: released in twenty thirty, one he'll be in his mid
Speaker 3: seventies at that, POINT i have to tell you that
Speaker 3: he's obviously shown his propensity toward young, girls and seventy
Speaker 3: five is not that, old so there's a concern. There
Speaker 3: as a side, note and you'll read this in the,
Speaker 3: PostScript i got a letter From Don miller and he
Speaker 3: admitted he admitted killing four. Women.
Speaker 5: Yeah, incredible incredible. CASE i have to, Say, rod thank
Speaker 5: you so much for coming on and talking about this new,
Speaker 5: Book Killing, women the true story of serial Killer Don
Speaker 5: miller's Certain reign Of. Terror it's been absolutely. Fascinating this
Speaker 5: is a wild blue press. Release can you tell us
Speaker 5: how people might find out about this book and your other?
Speaker 5: Work do you have a? Website tell us about?
Speaker 3: That? They COULD i Do rodsadler dot COM R O
Speaker 3: D S A D L E r dot. COM i
Speaker 3: will tell you my first two books that we discussed
Speaker 3: on previous shows are on. There this. BOOK i have
Speaker 3: to tell you this book was important to. ME i
Speaker 3: think there were there are generations of people that don't
Speaker 3: know Who Don miller is and what he, did AND
Speaker 3: i found that to be quite, true and that was
Speaker 3: the importance for me to write, it and SO i
Speaker 3: went ahead AND i got a literary agent who hooked
Speaker 3: me up with a publisher publishing company As Wild Blue.
Speaker 3: Press you can go directly to their website and order.
Speaker 3: It it's also available On amazon dot. Com it's it's
Speaker 3: available in three different, formats, paperback, kindle and much to my,
Speaker 3: delight an audio version be released In.
Speaker 5: December oh that's fantastic, news absolutely. Great, well thank you so,
Speaker 5: much and that's great news that it's released in audiobook
Speaker 5: form as well At Wilboo. Press congratulations on this, Book Killing.
Speaker 5: Women thank you so much for this. Interview Rod. Sadler
Speaker 5: you have a great.
Speaker 3: Evening thank, You, Dan you take, care good, night good,
Speaker 3: night