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Don Miller was quiet and reserved. As a 33 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:55.920 former youth pastor, he seemed to devout christian No one 34 00:01:55.959 --> 00:01:58.760 would have ever suspected that the recent graduate of the 35 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:02.439 Michigan State University the School of Criminal Justice was a 36 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:07.560 serial killer. However, when Miller was arrested for the attempted 37 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:11.439 murder of two teenagers in nineteen seventy eight, police quickly 38 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:15.280 realized he was probably responsible for the disappearances of for women. 39 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.280 Offered a still controversial plea bargain, he led police to 40 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:24.719 the bodies of the missing women. Now, after forty years 41 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:27.400 in prison, Miller has served his time and is due 42 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:32.639 to be released into an unsuspecting population. In Killing Women, 43 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:37.039 author Rodney Sadler examines the crimes the justice meeted out 44 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:41.639 in the impending freedom of a man. Nationally renowned psychiatrist 45 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:45.840 doctor Frank Auckberg wrote, is a member of a small 46 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:52.639 deadly dangerous population. Murderers whose stock capture, torture, and kill. 47 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.400 Murderers who derive sexual and narcissistic gratification from their predation. 48 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:03.919 Murderers who maintain a mascousy appearing normal and harmless. The 49 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:06.719 book that we're featuring this evening is Killing Women, the 50 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:10.080 true story of serial killer Don Miller's Reign of Terror, 51 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:15.520 with my special guest, former officer and author Rod Sadler. 52 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:17.759 Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much 53 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:20.120 for this interview. Rod Sadler. 54 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.960 Thank you, Dan. It is certainly a pleasure to be here. 55 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:29.520 It always is, and I always enjoy a good talk 56 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:31.120 about my books. Thank you again. 57 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.039 Thank you. Absolutely, we always have a fascinating time talking 58 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:41.000 about the various perpetrators, and this one is no exception. 59 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:47.240 Very fascinating, very fascinating case. Let's talk about just briefly. 60 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:51.400 You serve with the Eaton County Sheriff's Department, a thirty 61 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:57.400 year career. You had interesting Robert K. Wrestler, same alma mater, 62 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:07.039 Michigan State University. In August seventy eight, where the story starts. 63 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:12.280 You had just began your criminals, began studying criminal justice 64 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:16.920 in the fall of nineteen seventy eight, three weeks after 65 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:17.720 Miller's arrest. 66 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:20.600 That is. 67 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:23.920 Go ahead, Sorry, go ahead. 68 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:29.240 I was just going to say yes, that is correct. 69 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:36.439 I graduated in nineteen seventy eight, began college in the fall, 70 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:40.240 and that was literally three weeks after Don Miller's arrest. 71 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:45.560 Early in my career, I had Early early in my career, 72 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.279 I had decided on law enforcement as a career. I 73 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:52.199 knew what I was going to do, and as I 74 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:56.639 was finishing high school, these women had come up missing 75 00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:59.519 in the East Lancy area. I grew up in a 76 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:04.120 small town east of Michigan State University, about twenty miles, 77 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.120 so it was a big local story every time one 78 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:11.199 of these women came up missing, and so I kind 79 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:14.560 of followed it. And then when Miller was eventually arrested, 80 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.120 that was about the same time I was starting to 81 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:24.839 get ready to go to college. And the interesting part 82 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:29.160 about this whole thing is that I have a unique 83 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:37.399 perspective writing this because throughout my career I had the 84 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:42.519 chance to associate with and make friends with numerous people 85 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:46.560 that were involved in this case, from the first police 86 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:53.399 officers that were involved, to judges, prosecutors, and even Miller's 87 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:58.519 own defense attorney. All became colleagues and friends of mine, 88 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:05.439 and I didn't realize the amount of or how many 89 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:09.079 of them there really were at the time until late 90 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:14.040 in my career. The other unique perspective is that I 91 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:17.360 did my career through the Eaton County Sheriff's office, and 92 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:22.120 that is where Don Miller was arrested, was in Eton 93 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:28.560 County and was lodged at the Eton County Jail about 94 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.439 ten years before I started there, So a lot of 95 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:35.680 those same people were working there when I started. 96 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:41.800 Now you take us right away in the book to 97 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:47.240 a very incredibly vivid and horrifying scene. This is August sixteenth, 98 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:53.040 nineteen seventy eight, and this is near Lansing, Michigan, East Lansing. 99 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:57.279 This is two days after a woman, a teacher named 100 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:04.160 Christian Stewart, was reported missing. Now there is a you 101 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:09.680 describe as because this person made a report. Tell us 102 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:14.399 about this incredible event where this thirteen year old girl, 103 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:16.720 fourteen year old girls at home with their thirteen year 104 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:21.199 old brother, and there's a man at the door. Tell 105 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:23.959 us what happens when this man that she doesn't know 106 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:27.160 anything about, bangs at the door. What happens, what does 107 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:32.120 he do, and what event is set off as a result. 108 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:38.480 Actually, what happened was Lisa and Randy Gilbert lived in 109 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:41.759 a brand new house. They'd only lived there for two months. 110 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:47.839 They lived with their dad and their stepmom, and every 111 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:51.360 day at three o'clock they were required to call their 112 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:54.759 stepmom at work she in fact worked at Michigan State University, 113 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.319 and just to get a list of yours to do, 114 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.399 or just to check in with her. Every day at 115 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:06.000 three o'clock. Well, behind the house was a small pond, 116 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:08.199 if you will, They refer to it as a lagoon, 117 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:11.800 and Randy liked to go out there in fifth she 118 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.319 was thirteen years old and Lisa was just being a 119 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:21.000 teenage girl listening to the radio. And because the house 120 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:23.240 was so new, every once in a while a contractor 121 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:26.920 would show up and have to do some quick repairs 122 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:29.759 or finish a little job. So they were used to 123 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:33.519 seeing contractors come to the house while their parents were 124 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:39.200 at work. So that particular afternoon, as three o'clock approached, 125 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.559 Lisa went out to the back pond and yelled for 126 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:47.360 her brother to come on into the house because it 127 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:49.039 was almost three o'clock and they were gonna have to 128 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:52.840 call their stepmom. The garage door was open. As she 129 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:57.080 came around the edge of the house, she noticed a 130 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:00.639 brown car in the driveway and she figured it was 131 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:04.399 probably another contractor covered by the house. And as she 132 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:10.840 walked into the garage, Mail came out from the house 133 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:14.120 into the garage and he asked if her dad was home, 134 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.559 and she said no, And he said, do you have 135 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:19.279 a piece of paper where you can write down my 136 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:22.720 numbers so I can call him? Write down his number 137 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:25.519 so I can call him, And she said sure. So 138 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.480 as she goes back into the house, he follows her 139 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:31.600 in and she begins to look through a drawer for 140 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:34.360 a piece of paper and a pencil, and suddenly she's 141 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:37.120 grabbed from behind, an arm around her neck, and she 142 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:41.799 can see a knife held up to her face, and 143 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:46.279 he takes her into the bedroom, into her parents' bedroom, 144 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.559 where he has obviously already been. He has laid out 145 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.720 a couple of neck ties he took from her dad's closet, 146 00:09:55.759 --> 00:10:00.039 and he ties her up and he rapes her, and 147 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:07.759 when he's done with that, he takes a small, thin 148 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:12.799 leather belt that she had had around her shorts. And 149 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:18.799 now she's understand that this is difficult for some people. 150 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:22.559 But she was laying face down with her hands bound 151 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.279 behind her back, with her ankles bound, and she was 152 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:31.039 completely nude at that point. And he wrapped that belt 153 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:34.960 around her neck and he began to pull and strangle her. 154 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:41.240 And as that occurred, she began to get dizzy. She 155 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:46.039 couldn't breathe. She was close to passing out, and he 156 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.840 pulled so tight on that thin belt that it broke. 157 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.279 And at the instant that that belt broke, her brother 158 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.440 walked in to the kitchen, and Miller heard her brother, 159 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:06.879 and she heard her brother, and Miller quickly dropped the 160 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:09.480 belt or the pieces of the belt and went out 161 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.519 to the kitchen area. And Randy saw him coming out 162 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:18.919 and he said, hey, how you doing, And Randy said good, 163 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:21.360 and he kind of circled around behind Randy and he 164 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:24.080 grabbed Randy around the neck, held a knife up to 165 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.639 his throat, and he said, where's your bedroom at and 166 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.919 so Randy told him it was upstairs, and he started 167 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:34.799 walking up the stairs. Well, Randy was a thirteen year old, 168 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:38.320 skinny as a rail, but feisty, and he wasn't going 169 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:40.919 without a fight. So there was a brief struggle on 170 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:45.320 the stairs, Miller got back a hold of him. They 171 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:49.080 got up to his bedroom. Miller laid him face down 172 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:53.519 on the floor and started to cut his throat with 173 00:11:53.600 --> 00:12:01.600 the knife. Randy started screaming at that point, and he 174 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:04.559 was able to get his hand around and grab the 175 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.120 knife away from his neck and thrown under the bed. 176 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:12.080 So Miller instead began to strangle him, and he choked 177 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:14.720 him to the point where he passed out. And then 178 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.919 Miller retrieved the knife from under the bed and he 179 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:23.159 stabbed Randy twice in the chest. So now Randy is unconscious. 180 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:27.840 He's bleeding from stab wounds in a neck wound where 181 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:32.960 Miller tried to cut his throat. And while Miller was 182 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:40.559 attacking Randy, Lisa downstairs heard Randy screaming and she fled 183 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:42.480 from the house. She was able to get the front 184 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:47.759 door and locked. She ran out into traffic nude, with 185 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:50.320 her hands tied behind her back. She was able to 186 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:55.159 get her feet free and she was screaming for help. Luckily, 187 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:01.320 there was an employee from General Motors and Lancing and 188 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:06.440 he saw her run out. He was traveling southbound and 189 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:10.039 the Delta Township fire chief was traveling northbound and they 190 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:13.120 both saw her run out into traffic. Well, she got 191 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:18.480 to the GM employee first and was screaming that somebody 192 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:22.120 was trying to kill her brother. She'd been raped. Just 193 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:25.799 about that time, the Delta township fire chief the first witness, 194 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:29.879 and the witness said to him, get her in your car, 195 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.639 and the witness pulled into the driveway and started for 196 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:38.559 the house. He was going to confront or see what 197 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.480 was going on. And about that time, Miller came out 198 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.679 the front door, and so they had a brief discussion, 199 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:46.440 and the witness said to him, he said, is there 200 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.559 a boy that's hurt in that house? And Miller said, 201 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.639 I don't know, maybe, and he said, will you just 202 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:55.440 wait right here until the police get here. And at 203 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:59.000 that point, Miller stepped off the porch, ran by him, 204 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:02.240 jumped into his car, and fled. But before he was 205 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:05.399 able to flee, the witness was able to get his 206 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:09.799 license plate number, and that began a whole series of 207 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:15.159 events that resulted in Don Miller's literally his last day 208 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:16.720 of freedom in his life. 209 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:23.320 So far, right now, they simply are able to have 210 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:26.960 these witnesses, They have the license plate number, So how 211 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.720 easy it is? It for them to arrest Don Miller. 212 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:33.200 You say that was his last day of freedom. So 213 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:35.879 tell us just a little bit about the arrest before 214 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.919 we go backwards as you do in terms of how 215 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:44.720 much police know at that time or suspect about Don Miller. 216 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:49.279 Well, under Michigan law, if a police officer has reason 217 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.279 to believe that a felony was committed and reason to 218 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:56.279 believe that a specific person committed it, they can arrest 219 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.039 that person without a warrant. And so when the first 220 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:04.159 officer pulled up and got the license plate number from 221 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.080 the witness, he ran the license plate number through the 222 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:11.679 Law Enforcement Information Network and it came back to Don Miller. 223 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.879 By that time, everybody in mid Michigan knew who Don 224 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:19.120 Miller was. And we'll get into that in just a minute. 225 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:22.440 But as soon as he figured out that the car 226 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:28.559 that fled was registered to Don Miller, the Sheriff's office 227 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:32.399 put out a I'll use a television terom here in 228 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:36.799 APB all points bulletin that really they just put out 229 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:41.159 a radio broadcast to all the area police agencies saying 230 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:44.080 that they had just had a rape and attempted murder 231 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:47.519 and that the suspect vehicle they described it and said 232 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:51.720 that it was registered to Don Miller. As soon as 233 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:55.120 that radio broadcast went out, the East Lansing Police Department, 234 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:59.759 which was about twenty miles to the east of Delta Township, 235 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.200 has occurred heard that Don Miller was wanted in that 236 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.879 rape and attempted murder. And so they all fanned out 237 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.919 to his apartment, his girlfriend's apartment, I'm sorry, his home, 238 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:16.679 his girlfriend's apartment, and they caught him. They caught him 239 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.440 coming back to his girlfriend's apartment, and they arrested him 240 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.759 within forty minutes of the rape. 241 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:29.759 Now, you say, interestingly, an officer named Rick Westgate at 242 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.919 the same time, here's the police broadcast, and who is 243 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.159 he and what case was he working on? 244 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:44.600 Rick Westgate? Rick Westgate was a sergeant with the Athlantan 245 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:49.200 Police Department, and he was brought on early in the 246 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.080 disappearance of a young lady by the name of Marcus 247 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:56.360 Sue Young. And this would have been about eighteen months 248 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:01.559 earlier than this rape. And to Sue Young was the 249 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:06.240 fiance of Don Miller and Don New Year's Eve in 250 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:12.519 nineteen seventy six. Don Miller and Martha Sue Young were together. 251 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:17.200 They had gone to a house the babysit for some kids. 252 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.279 Don was living with his parents at the time. He 253 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:26.160 and Martha Sue Young, who were friends. They had very 254 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:32.519 briefly been engaged, but Martha had told her mother that 255 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:35.200 she had broken off the engagement a few days before 256 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:40.359 New Year's and so they had remained friends. She said 257 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:43.839 that Don had let her keep the engagement ring and 258 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.279 they would still be friends. So New Year's Eve, they 259 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.039 went to babysit. They went back to Don's parents, they 260 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:53.680 watched the movie It's a Mad, Mad, Mad Mad World, 261 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:59.240 and then they left and Don Miller took her out 262 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:04.799 any strangle her, he killed her. He came back home 263 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:10.839 and about two am and told his mom that he'd 264 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.400 left Martha sitting on the front porch of her house 265 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.000 after he dropped her off. And so this was the 266 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:22.200 initial missing person report. Rickquestgate worked on that along with 267 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.200 Dean Tucker, who was a sergeant at the time. He 268 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:28.359 was later promoted the lieutenant, but they were the two 269 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:31.839 lead investigators for the Atlants And Police Department on that 270 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:35.000 initial missing person case. Marche so Young. 271 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:42.319 Right now, with this, Rick Westgate and Dean Tucker, now, 272 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:47.720 how were they then involved with the recent events with 273 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:51.359 the thirteen and the fourteen year old, the Gilbert the 274 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.799 Gilbert brother and sister. So how did police proceed with 275 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:56.160 that prosecution. 276 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.640 Well, once Don Miller was a staid eighteen months after 277 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:07.000 Martha Sue Young had come up missing, really that case 278 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:10.720 was separate from any of the East Lansing cases. East 279 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:16.200 Lansing is located in Ingham County, which is where Lancing, 280 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.519 the county seat I'm sorry, not the county seat, but 281 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:24.680 the state capitol is located. Eaton County, where the rape 282 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:27.119 of Lisa Gilbert and the attempt to murder of her 283 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:31.920 and Randy occurred, is literally on the border of Ingham County. 284 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.519 It's the next county to the west, so you really 285 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:39.920 have two jurisdictions there. So the prosecution of Don Miller 286 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:44.440 for the rape and attempted murder of the teenagers occurred 287 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:48.720 in Eaton County, and so they brought in their own 288 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:53.519 detectives who investigated the rape and the attempted murders, while 289 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:57.559 at the same time, the East Lansing Police, the Michigan 290 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:02.599 State University Police, and the Ingram County Sheriff's Department all 291 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:09.119 became involved even more actively in trying to find evidence 292 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:14.440 that Miller was somehow tied into the disappearance of Martha 293 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.400 Sue Young and three other missing women. 294 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:22.680 Now, when we talk, when we go back to the 295 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:29.240 Martha Sue Young, to the mother Sue Young, her father 296 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:36.240 Lee lived out of state. But also what's crucial to 297 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:40.319 this story is the actions, behavior, and maybe even the 298 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:44.319 attitude of Jean Miller, Don Miller's father and his mother. 299 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:50.359 I believe Elaine. So just as you write in the book, 300 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.279 explain sort of the interaction between the Miller family and 301 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:01.240 police in terms of asking questions about Don and especially 302 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:03.839 that evening in questions. 303 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:10.519 Well, the Milbers, Jane and Elaine, we were friends with 304 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.599 the Young family because they all went to the same church, 305 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:19.319 and that's how Don became acquainted with Martha Sue. When 306 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:25.920 this investigation began into Martha Sue's disappearance, police questioned Don 307 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:34.359 and basically he was very stoic in his responses. He 308 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:39.160 didn't offer anything to them unless he was asked a 309 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:44.440 specific question. And so the police, after speaking with him 310 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.000 at the house, they had him come in that afternoon 311 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:54.839 for an interview. They weren't satisfied with his answers, so 312 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.880 they went back over to his parents' house and said, hey, 313 00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.720 can we can we look in your car? 314 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.200 Is Ryan here? 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The police says they got 341 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.359 into the vehicle, they found a blood spot on the 342 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:22.559 front seat, and so things began to get more and 343 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:25.599 more suspicious, and they began to focus a little bit 344 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:32.279 more on done. After two or three days, Don came 345 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:38.039 in for a polygraph exam why detector test, which he failed, 346 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.119 and as the police wanted to talk to him more 347 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:47.039 and more, Gene Miller became, I'm going to say more 348 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:53.039 defensive of his son, and he basically said, I'm going 349 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.480 to hire an attorney, and he did. He hired an 350 00:23:56.519 --> 00:24:01.920 attorney by the name of Bengston, and Benston's said, because 351 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:05.400 he's out, he's hired to look out for his client's' rights. 352 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.599 And he said, you're not going to talk to my 353 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:13.960 client anymore unless you go through me first. And so 354 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.920 the hands of the Atlantic police department were tied at 355 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:22.640 that point. They were allowed one interview one additional interview 356 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.680 with Tom Benston present, but their questions had to be 357 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:33.119 handwritten and Benston was able to review those before any 358 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:39.279 before Don was asked to answer them. So it became 359 00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:42.640 kind of a cat and mouse game, if you will, 360 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:49.160 in that the police suspected Miller. I think deep down 361 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.039 they knew that he probably had killed Martha Sue, but 362 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:57.640 they couldn't prove it, and by Gene Miller hiring Tom Benkston, 363 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:03.400 they couldn't. They couldn't interview Miller anymore, and they had 364 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:06.480 no body, They had no evidence at that point, so 365 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:07.480 their hands were tied. 366 00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:12.680 They did get to speak to Sue Young, and she 367 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.640 did say some very interesting things early on about Don 368 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:21.599 Miller's supposed religiosity and some of the things he said 369 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:26.200 regarding God and God's will in terms of the relationship 370 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:29.680 between Martha and him. 371 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:38.839 Yes, Don was Don was. I hate to use the 372 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:43.599 term obsessed, but everything in Don's life revolved around his 373 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:51.200 Christianity or his legend Christianity, and even in his relationship 374 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:55.319 with Martha Sue Young, he would tell her that it 375 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:59.640 was God's will that they be married, and that if 376 00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:03.960 she did mary him, she was going against God's will. 377 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:09.079 And he would he would write her letters and talk 378 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:15.599 about his Christianity. It was just very odd to her, 379 00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:19.119 and he would it would come up in the middle 380 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:23.279 of a conversation as they were speaking, he'd throw in 381 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:30.079 some Christianity or religion. And so that became a concern 382 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:33.920 of hers. Two. She was concerned that he didn't really 383 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:35.960 have a full time job, even though he was a 384 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.480 graduate of the Michigan State University School of Criminal Justice. 385 00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:44.839 You know, he was working as a security guard. Actually 386 00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:47.200 at that point he hadn't even gotten that job. He 387 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:51.240 was seeking a job as a security guard. So yeah, 388 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:57.720 he had almost an obsession with Christianity. And does I 389 00:26:57.759 --> 00:26:59.400 would say does to this day. 390 00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:07.519 Now in terms of this disappearance of Martha Sue Young. 391 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:12.440 They police believe that he's a suspect, and now he 392 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:17.759 has an attorney representing the family, So what else do 393 00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:20.279 they try to do in futility? But what do they 394 00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:24.400 try to do regardless of that attorney being. 395 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:30.920 Involved, Well, basically it's a missing person's case. Even though 396 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.920 they suspect, there's more to it than that. They did 397 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:39.359 a background on Martha. They knew that she was supposed 398 00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:44.640 to beget a brand new job right after the first 399 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:48.240 of the year. They knew that she'd left one hundred 400 00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:52.160 and twenty five dollars check in her top dresser drawer 401 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:56.920