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Speaker 1: The the the.

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Speaker 1: The the the.

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Speaker 1: The the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the.

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Speaker 2: The the.

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Speaker 4: The all right, what's up? Welcome everybody.

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Speaker 5: It's been a while since my good buddies have joined me.

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They are a lot cooler than me.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: They don't like me anymore.

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Speaker 5: I'm I'm washed up, some might say. But I've talked

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them into coming back. I sent them all fifty five

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bitcoin each and they've decided that they're willing to talk

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to me again.

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Speaker 4: They're going to help me revive my career. On the internets,

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I have David Arrhon, the one, the only David Aarhon

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King of refuting the Keith Hizites.

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Speaker 5: And I have with me Kai of Orthodox Shahada, our

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beloved brothers Kai and David.

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Speaker 4: And today we're going to do part four where we.

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Speaker 5: Get into some of the confusion around a couple key

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terms such as in hypostatized, in hypostatization, composite hypostasis, and

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some other things.

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Speaker 4: Guys, how are y'all today?

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Speaker 6: I was doing very well until you started speaking, so

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thank you for that moment of silence for a little while.

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Jokes aside, it's good to be back. I had a

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long hiatus just general, just long hiatus, and just recently

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I decided to come back and to make videos again.

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I guess a lot of like monopsis stuff happened in

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a row.

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Speaker 3: Like we continue doing the stream right now.

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Speaker 6: I made a video quite recently on how scripture teaches

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two Natures in Christ. So I would definitely highly recommend

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all of you to check that out. It's only twenty minutes.

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There's a lot of I will say, new evidence, so

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to speak, a new way of looking at the purchasing writings,

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because we looked at Philippines two five to seven in particular,

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and once you kind of understand the argument, I will

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say it's very very air tight that Saint Paul teaches

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two natures in Christ and at the Council of Culclum

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really only repeats actually what Saint Paul is teaching, and

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there's pictures basis for that. So yeah, I had a

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decent stream with Clethi Antiquity as well. So yeah, as

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I said, good to be back, I'll have a Yeah,

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I'll have a video.

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Speaker 3: I have two videos.

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Speaker 6: That's available in early access of Pitch and it will

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be uploaded sometime soon. One of them is also on

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similar to this topic. It's on conceptual distinction in Christology,

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which is also very relevant, and I will highly recommend

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all of you to get ready for that. Basically it

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will also be like fifteen to twenty minutes, but I

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think it really gets to the heart of conceptual distinction,

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which spoiler alert, it's basically distinction without division.

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Speaker 3: That's basically actually.

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Speaker 5: Exactly same stuff going on with in the Trinity as well.

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When we make these types of distinctions Christology and Trinity

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reflects back and forth. And that's also going to be

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a key point in refuting iven off side errors, is

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the lack of reflexibility between Trinity and Christology. But I will,

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by the way, have linked below David's more recent video

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that he did.

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Speaker 4: It was really good and go ahead, David.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's just all of the all of the

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news that I had to be clear.

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Speaker 4: Essentially, Kyle, what's up? Catch us up on you as well?

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Speaker 2: Hey, Jay, how's it going, David? Nice to see you guys.

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We haven't done this for a while. People were saying,

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when are you guys going to keep doing the streams

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and then the the monophysites. They're like, oh, look they're

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not providing responses. Yeah, it's like, oh, we've got them.

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They got no way to respond. No, we just have lives.

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We just have lives. Just to share a little bit

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there with the audience. So God willing in February will

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be welcoing we welcoming our first child. So that and

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just everything around that. How life is pretty much centered

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on getting that stuff going. Now, maybe I can just

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maybe bring to everybody's attention because David's not really hiding it,

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but I think congrats are in order David.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, yeah, congrats for Congress for what exactly

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that is going to be.

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Speaker 3: In the next that is going to be the next Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well you've you've shown your hand on screen several times,

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so those astute watchers have been paying attention this one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I'm happy for these.

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Speaker 5: Bros too, because, like you know, when when Discord first

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kind of got kicking off in twenty seventeen eighteen, we

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had a round of these bros that showed up and

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they ended up now being kind of what you know,

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we envisioned through God's grace, creating this sort of army

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of people to do apologetics. And it's not just that

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they've advanced intellectually into these issues theologically, but they've also

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become actual you know, chads. These guys are doing things

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in life the right way. I'll leave it to David

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to announce all the things that he wants to announce.

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Speaker 3: No, I think just I let the secret expose itself.

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Speaker 6: I don't like to talk about it about it basically,

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but yeah, a lot of good things have happened during

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my hiatus. So my hiatus wasn't for anything bad, I'll

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say that much. Well, and it definitely wasn't because I

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was scared or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: It's nah. Yeah, all right.

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Speaker 5: So today, like we said, we're going to talk about

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a couple of the hot button terms and topics around that.

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Speaker 4: David's going to go.

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Speaker 5: I got about a fifteen minute section where he's gonna talk. Obviously,

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KAI can talk as long as he wants as well,

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about whatever he wants. I'll kick it off with a

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great quote by Saint Maximus. Christ is not hype by

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hypostasis mortal and immortal immortal, nor is he powerless and omnipotent,

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visible and invisible, created and uncreated. But he is the

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former by nature and the latter by hypostasis. And this

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point I think is great for kind of laying out

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the distinction not between not just between nature and person,

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but also the fact that we can continue to have

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a diophysite and a diothelite discussion of Christ even after

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the incarnation and resurrection, et cetera, without that distinction causing division, separation,

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or some you know, weird Nestorian end result. So do

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you want to go first, David, or do you want

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to Yeah, Ky, do you want to kick it off?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 6: Yes, First of all, that quote is incredibly important. I

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mean it's from the twenty fourth Oposculum of Saint Maximus

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the Confessor, and to kind of kick it off with

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both as an introduction, particularly symmetrical and asymmetrical Christology. If

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you don't know what these mean exactly, I'll explain them,

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so it's not an issue, and particularly its teams in

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the writings of the Fathers, in especially of Saint Kurrila Alexandria,

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and I'll start with kind of like the asymmetrical Christology,

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which is what we see with Saint Antanacius especially is

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on the incarnation and Saint Kurila Alexandria to give an

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example of this. Their main Christological paradigm and explaining the

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union between divinity and humanity is what's in the literature

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referred to as the logo sarkx model or in English

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is the word flesh model. And you will notice in

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those two words you have the word which refers to

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the subject, and then you have flesh, which does not

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refer to any subject. It refers to kind of an

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impersonal human nature. And especially if you look at the

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writings of both of these things that I mentioned and

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the general Christological teams, they will oftentimes speak of the

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flesh being the instrument of the Word, as the Word

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is acting in the world, like all of his divine

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activities are done through the flesh as an instrument. So

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that's something that Saint Currole particularly says quite often. So

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that's asymmetrical Christology. It's the relationship between the hypostasis, the

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person right that is united to an impersonal nature, in

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this specific case, the Word of God, who is united

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to an impersonal human nature. So this is the fundamental

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basis for what we will say the divine hypostatus of

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Christ even after the incarnation. It specifies that it's the

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word of God.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 6: There is the one and the same Word of God

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who prior to the incarnation, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, the world was created through him.

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Speaker 6: He descended and spoke to Abraham in Genesis eighteen. In nineteen.

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It is he that judged Sodomon Gomora for example. It's

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that word of God who also walked in the garden

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in prior to the fall, and the one like abrahams

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always day and he was glad.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Christ says, it's this one.

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Speaker 6: I'm the same person, right, So that's kind of the

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basis of it. And then there's this symmetrical future, which

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is talking about the kind of union of the two

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natures and in some way resulting in a composition. This

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is what we will call composite hypostasis.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: The two natures form a.

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Speaker 6: Composite hypostasis in the sense that they are you can say,

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like parts of a whole.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 6: The person of Christ, being fully divine and fully man,

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is composite by hypostasis. This is stated by you know,

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Saint Justinian, say John Damascus. Various different saints, very different

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fathers use this terminology, particularly to oppose composite nature. So

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they will argue that Christ is not a composite nature

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that is formed of divinity and humanity, but rather he

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is a composite hypostasis. To make the case that he's

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not kind of like a third nature or kind of

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like a new again forming nature, but the person that

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unites divinity and humanity in his own person. And especially

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in the writers and Saint Cureity, you see this, particularly

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with his mere physics from the nature, that the one

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incarent nature, that the one nature that is incarnate, right,

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and that qualification is very important, and he himself says,

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is it's important because if he didn't make that qualification,

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Saint phil says, then or critiques then or the criticism

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against us will be correct because it will go against

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kind of like the human nature aspect of Christ. And

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it's stating that the two natures are individual, they're not

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divided from each other. And that's a different subject. But

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I want to kind of continue on the on the subject.

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So the main question that you can typically get, and

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before I get that, some other quotes I would also

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like to support this, like Saint Demetrius and Nilois says,

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the hype stage of the Word of God was not

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united with another human hype stasis, but through the incarnation

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he formed for himself a human nature that he assumed

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and included in his eternal hype stasis. Eternal hype stasis, right,

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that he include it in his person. I believe this

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is from his experience of God. Volume three from Satan Sulfire,

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George Floroski says there's no human hype stasis in Christ.

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I don't recall the exact quote, but an important question

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that people kind of have in regards to this. Okay,

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at one hand it's composite, and one hand it's divine.

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How does that make any sense?

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Speaker 3: Right? How is that supposed to make any sense?

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Speaker 6: And I would like to invite people to kind of

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consider the two different aspects in the sense, so starting

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with composite hypostasis, when we're speaking about the natures composing

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the it's not as if the person is a result, right,

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like coming out as a result of the union completely,

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because then you will kind of have actually an historic

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Christ that with a composed hype state is composed of

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two hypostasis, and these two hype statis is also being

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in some kind of like a purely external union, as

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if there are two subjects united by grace, like the

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Prophet and the Holy Spirit, for example, but rather you

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can take of them as like material parts. When I

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say material parts, and I mean like they're physical, but

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rather they're the wattenness, right, the answer to what is

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that particular for example subject or that particular thing, because

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he's the god man, right, he's divine human, he's fully God,

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he's fully man.

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Speaker 3: And in terms of.

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Speaker 6: In terms of this kind of question, the divine hype

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states in this sense, and I'll use like kind of

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aerosolent terminlogy because it is useful in the sense and

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it kind of gets into the distinction. The big question is, Okay,

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there are the two natures that are united, but over time,

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like how do we make sure that this thing stays

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identical over time?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 6: Like identity of time. This is the case for even

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human persons. But it's also important in the case of

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the composition. And the word hippokemonon will be used here,

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which is transit as material substrate. Again, it might give

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you different and wrong ideas, but because it's typically usedul

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like essences like human nature, divine nature, and things like that.

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But hippokemonon very simply is kind of this. It's the

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substance that persists in a thing true change and it's

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basic essence, and it's not something like even when we

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talk about human beings, right created beings which change, the

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hippokemonon will be the substrate of that thing that doesn't change. Right,

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it's it will be like for rational beings, it will

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be their identity in that sense.

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Speaker 3: And so it is in that sense we speak of.

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Speaker 6: The hyposthesis of Christ, because it's the same word of God,

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it's the same person. This is the reason why we

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refer to the Virgin Maria as the mother of God,

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but not the mother of Man, or not even the

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mother of Christ.

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Speaker 3: That should be an important question.

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Speaker 6: It's not just that the person that's born is divine

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by nature, but the person that's born is a divine person.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 6: The reason why, for example, Anthropotokos it's heretical, it's because

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it will suggest a distinct human person in Christ, and

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even christo Tokos is rejected by Saint Kile because first

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of all, it's too vague, and second of all, it

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again does not consider the person the identity the subject,

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but rather the result of the union of the two natures,

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which will be the name of the union of the

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two prosopa as we see in the union of the

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two persons, whereas hypostasis, properly speaking, is the separate existence.

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And how is the separate existence of Christ characterized right

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by being begun of the Father. That's why we call

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him divine hypostasy, because his separate existence, his unique mode

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of being is that he's begotten of the Father, which

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is in his divinity right. And even you know, Saint

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Paul speaks about I think Romans one three and one four.

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He talks about kind of the power of God announcing

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like his divinity in that sense. And yes, another quote

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that I want to say before I like finalize this,

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and this is from Saint John at Damascus is against

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the Jacobites. This is quoted by Johannes zak Kuber's book

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The Rise of Christian Theology and the End.

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Speaker 4: Of I was about to quote it, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Page two ninety seven.

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Speaker 6: Saint John says, he basically says, there's a distinction between

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the hypostasis.

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Speaker 3: And what exists in a hypostasis.

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Speaker 6: So this is the sense like the hype says the

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hippo keemona, right, like the fundamental thing that doesn't change,

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whereas even things like essence, the properties, energies, they're all

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and high posthetized. So there's hypostasis, and there are things

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that are and high posthetized in a hypostasis.

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Speaker 3: And these things are you.

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Speaker 6: Know, as I said, essence, veil, energy, natural properties, so

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on and so forth.

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Speaker 3: And so.

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Speaker 6: This is very fundamental because when we speak about that

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person of Christ, the hype stats of Christ.

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Speaker 3: Both compound and simple and in what senses?

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Speaker 6: Is that the personal aspect of the hype says none

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other than the word of God.

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Speaker 3: It's none other than him. It's the personal level.

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Speaker 6: And the composite aspect is again the material, the whatness,

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that he's fully divine and fully human. And very critically,

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they are made one, made what in what sense? They're

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made one in the in the unique mode of existence.

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That's why Christ is the teanthropic hypostasis right. It reflects

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the unique mode in which he exists. For excep say,

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the Unitysterireaupaca in his Ford Letter speaks about.

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Speaker 3: The new divine human tandric energy.

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Speaker 6: It's not to say that there's a terti quid energy,

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but rather that divinity and humanity both in Christ are

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acting in a unique mode, and for example Christ's walking

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on water. Christ's human nature is elevated by the divinity

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that it is united to, in which he is now

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able to do a human act that will be impossible

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on its own, but with the cooperation of the divine nature,

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which actually Pope Saint Leo says this, that the forms

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in Christ cooperate with each other.

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Speaker 3: For Christ to do.

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Speaker 6: That activity, right, it's a human activity done in the

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divine mode. And this again, this unique mode, this teanthropic mode,

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is one. That's what the two natures becoming one fundamentally means.

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They become one in the hype stage of Christ. And

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this is particularly specified by the Church Fathers after the

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fifth and sixth century. So that's basically what basically like

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kind of like a short description of the difference between

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simple hype stations and composite hype stats in Christ.

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Speaker 3: And like the relevant portions.

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Speaker 6: Again, the Theotokos part, I think it's absolutely demonstrates the

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point that I make it because again, if it was

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just about the nature of the subject, I guess she's

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the mother of the man too.

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Speaker 5: But no, that's if it was just about the nature,

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it would be fine to say christodo coost or something

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like that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Chrystotokos because it includes both of the natures, right,

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Like Nestor says, hey, it includes both natures. It's a

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name that includes both natures, so why not use it?

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And Saecreel said that doesn't hit on the identity of Christ,

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which is what he's theos. That's why Theotokos, it's not

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just that it's useful, It fundamentally missed. Chrystotokos fundamentally misses

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the mark about the identity of Christ. And that's why

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we call her the mother of God because the person

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she gave birth to is a divine person.

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Speaker 3: That's basically the fundamental.

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Speaker 6: Reason we will we don't say sintetos, sinteto's tocos or

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something like that toos, right, not a composite mother, but

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mother of God. That's basically what I want to, like

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briefly briefly discuss before we start with so the things

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that maybe you want to present or maybe Kai wants.

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Speaker 7: To present, well, I would just like to read a

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couple quotes out of the zach Kuber bog because it's

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it's really excellent, especially as you get into the latter

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parts of it when you get to talking about Saint

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John Damascus.

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Speaker 5: And I forgot to turn my light on here, says,

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I'm just gonna read a little bit of it. This

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is not too lengthy, this kind of argument from Saint

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John Amascus. He's saying would not easily apply to the

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whole range of hypostaces. John's philosophy normally recognizes it is

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a theory specifically geared towards human beings, or at least

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towards rational beings. Perhaps this is the beginning of the

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notion of personal existence in Eastern Patristic thought, but there

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is little evidence that John was conscious of the additional distinctions.

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Be that as it may, We can hear concern discern

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about whether or not John Damascus was crucial for future

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personalist theology or philosophy. John Demascus's individuality philosophy the theory

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of individuality addresses the problem of the conception of the

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hypostasis as identified. Excepting that the hypostasis is essentially independent existence,

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the Damascene argues that the contingent origin of this existence

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as and other equally contingent aspects of the subsequent history

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of individuals, are what makes them unique. Interestingly, the identification

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of the hypostasis's individual existence.

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Speaker 4: With historical origin.

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Speaker 5: Even permittive John Damascus to integrate the traditional notion of

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the confluence of properties into his own new theory, arguing

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that in subsistence of the human nature and the Logos,

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John says, quote, even though his flesh was not without

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characteristic properties, still the collection of these properties and the

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coming into being of the composition of his flesh did

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not happen independently, but in the hypostasis of the Logos.

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The flesh therefore does not have its own hypostasis, but

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only that of the Logos. So this is what I

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argued many many years ago when this first started popping up,

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is that if you read what John Amasco says clear

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as day on the Orthodox Faith, especially when he talks

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about the descent of Christ in the Hades, it's another

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way to really kind of put a kill shot in

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this whole argument, because.

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Speaker 4: It shows that the.

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Speaker 5: Hypostasis of the Word is the only hypostasis in terms

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of that asymmetrical christology that David is talking about. And

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if you read the Bathrello's text, there's multiple chapters that

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also make this distinction between symmetrical and asymmetrical. All that

401
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means is just viewing it from two different vantage points.

402
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If we're talking about the decision of the Fifth Council,

403
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though it specifies clear as day via the Edict of

404
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Saint Justinian, that you have to identify the hypostasis properly speaking,

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as that of the divine subject of the word. That

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subject doesn't undergo substantial change. That's another key point that

407
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because the Oriental so called Orthodox metaphysic doesn't recognize these

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layers and levels to what we talk about when we

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talk about Christ assuming a new nature, they cannot conceive

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of that as of both and and it has to

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be in either or so in the case of Christ

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assuming a new nature, that can't be this asymmetrical relationship

413
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between the divine subject, the logos, and the human fully

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human nature, but not human person that he assumed or

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human subject. They can't conceive of that. They can only

416
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conceive of it as a tertium quid. Ultimately, and when

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you start getting into we'll but wait a minute, doesn't

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nature person, will energy, et cetera in the trinity reflect

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into Christology. I mean, if Christ is the second person

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the God had becoming incarnate, then clearly the relationship of nature, person, will,

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and energy and eternity is going to reflect then to Christology.

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But this is the point at which precisely because they

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don't allow these nuance and layers in their metaphysics, they

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have to say no and they have to end up

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with a tertion quid position.

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Speaker 6: I'd like to add some things in regards to first

427
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of all, with like monophysicism, it's interesting because in a

428
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sense they try to incorporate asymmetrical Christology because the two

429
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hype states, only one of them is a prosopone, and

430
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that's the divine hype system. But you have this kind

431
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of confusion. For example, I believe in that there's a

432
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one of it's their patriarchs. I think it was Theodosius

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of Alexandria. There's a dispute called Agnote controversy, and it

434
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was about whether Christ was truly ignorant in its humanity

435
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or not. So there's a person called Timistius who claimed

436
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that Christ will is truly Yeah, I believe he argued

437
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that Christ was truly ignorant, and he argued that well,

438
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since Christ has a tandric villain energy, he must have

439
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had like ignorance in the human part of that will,

440
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and Theodosius basically says there is no human part, there's

441
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only the divine part. And it might seem like contradictory,

442
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but if you read the theme on of Psychristology book

443
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by I think Chestnuts was her surname that wrote the book,

444
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she basically explains that like the self subsistent, the prosopic

445
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act part of the divine hypostasis is what actually allows

446
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the will and energy and even the nature to be enumerated.

447
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So in the sense you have like divine only will nature,

448
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and it kind of gets like a bit contradictory, so

449
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to speak, like how do you actually because in Orto says,

450
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I've explained you kind of had this harmonization. But the

451
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harmonization seems to be a little lacking in terms of

452
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some of the quotes. The one from far George Fluorosky

453
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was from his Creation Redemption and another quote also from

454
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the from zak Kuber that Saint John Damascus makes I

455
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think it was. Yes, he says, it is therefore impossible

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for that which once came into being independently to receive

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another beginning of its existence. For hypostasis is independent existence.

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This is an important quote because he's not just saying

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that there cannot be another hypostasis that unite with a hypostasis,

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because the definition of hype stasis that it independently exists.

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Speaker 3: So you can't have.

462
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Speaker 6: Two independently existing things becoming one independently existing thing.

463
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Speaker 3: That that's a logical contradiction.

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Speaker 6: But he also says, look, hype station's independent existence, and

465
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it came into being independently. Now, in the case of Christ,

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he came into being independently again as it came into

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being not in the sense that he was created in time,

468
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but that he's begotten of the Father. How did his

469
00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:02,519
being is begotten off the Father? That's why, like you

470
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actually have a justification for referring Christ as a divine

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hype stasis on that level. So that's something I also

472
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,160
wants to add.

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Speaker 4: Very shortly, Ki, what's up man?

474
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: All right? Is it my turn?

475
00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 4: Yes?

476
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 3: It seems like it's yes.

477
00:28:21,039 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: All right, Okay, So this I'll try not to ramble

478
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,880
on for too long. That was a very good presentation, David,

479
00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:33,319
very informative spot on one thing that I would like

480
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,519
to just maybe make explicitly clear because I see this

481
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:40,519
question pop up very frequently and it's really just it's

482
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:43,039
a good it's a really good question, but it's a

483
00:28:43,119 --> 00:28:48,160
very simple, simple response to it. We always say, like,

484
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,599
for example, that Christ is a divine only hypostasis, but

485
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,960
yet we speak of two natures, and so a lot

486
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,599
of people kind of get confused, is like, what do

487
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,920
you mean divine only or that he's divine hypostasis? Just

488
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,559
in simple, plain language, all we're really referring to here

489
00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:09,519
is that the hypostasis is uncreated, like it's it's a

490
00:29:09,519 --> 00:29:13,839
divine hypostasis and that it is uncreated. It contrasts with

491
00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:18,440
when we say human hypostasis, it indicates that it is created.

492
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,319
And now that's just a straightforward response that has a

493
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,039
lot of implications behind it though it's a simple response,

494
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,000
but the theology behind it, the metaphysics behind it, Like

495
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:35,119
when you say a human hypostasis, you have now things

496
00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:37,519
that you need to take into consideration, like gnomic willing,

497
00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:41,279
and so now that becomes proper to a human or

498
00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:44,960
a created hypostasis, and you get into Saint Maximus and

499
00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:49,200
what is the problem with Christ having a gnomic will?

500
00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:52,480
And so why Christ does not have a gnomic will

501
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,319
while he doesn't have a human hypostasis, and then so

502
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,359
you'll run and you'll see this problem. It poses a

503
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,200
significant barrier for the Orientals to address this issue of

504
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:06,440
nomic willing when they claim that while there is a

505
00:30:06,519 --> 00:30:09,440
human hypostasis in Christ, so they're not going to be

506
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:14,480
able to properly address nomic willing and whatnot. When you

507
00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:18,440
say that the hypostasis of Christ is divine only, that

508
00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:22,160
has the implications of well, it is eternally begotten of

509
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,599
the Father, and so what is the implication there? Well,

510
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,359
if Christ is only quote unquote one nature that the

511
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,759
Orientals want you to profess, well, if he's one nature

512
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:42,680
and there's two hypostasis, they're human and divine. So does

513
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,359
that mean that a part of Christ is eternally begotten

514
00:30:46,559 --> 00:30:50,960
while another part is not eternally begotten? So we're safe

515
00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:56,079
guarding this absurdity by making certain to say that we

516
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,119
have a divine only hypostasis in Christ. So that was

517
00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:04,759
one thing I wanted to say there. Another thing that

518
00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:08,880
I wanted to kind of talk about is so a

519
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,400
lot of you guys who have followed me on YouTube

520
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,920
with my community posts and sub stack over the past

521
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,480
couple of weeks, I've been putting out chat.

522
00:31:20,519 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 4: By the way, while you're talking, your substacks.

523
00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: All right, all right, thanks, Yeah, I've been basically doing

524
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,880
them like every couple of days, every day, just trying

525
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,440
to keep up. But really I'm taking a metaphysics approach.

526
00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:39,119
So this is really setting out the Orthodox metaphysical paradigm,

527
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,880
setting out the historian the Orientals, and really going into

528
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,799
great detail to help people understand where the objections are

529
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:54,119
from the Orthodox perspective and how to properly understand Orthodox metaphysics.

530
00:31:55,079 --> 00:32:02,880
And it's very interesting because up until today the Orientals

531
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,359
have been completely silent. They have not responded. And somebody

532
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,759
posted in the discord Server just before we went live,

533
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,279
I suppose refutation on one of my articles. It was

534
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:20,200
the one where I'm showing Saint Basil basically using person

535
00:32:20,519 --> 00:32:26,480
and hypostasis synonymously to refer to the same ontology because

536
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:32,319
he's basically identifying Jesus in his humanity as the divine person.

537
00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:39,240
And I quickly glanced at the article posted and all

538
00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:41,839
of this stuff. I'm going to respond to it thoroughly.

539
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,160
I'm just gonna let you guys kind of respond to me,

540
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,359
and then I will respond to you. But it's quite

541
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:56,599
laughable the level of stupidity that they've come up with

542
00:32:57,039 --> 00:33:07,440
to refute. So, in Oriental Christology and Tritology, they make

543
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:14,400
an ontological distinction between person and hypostasis, and they do

544
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,599
this as a sleight of hand to preserve, allegedly preserve

545
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,920
Christ's or the Logos' immutability, so that when the incarnation happens,

546
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,480
nothing of the divine hypostasis undergoes any kind of change.

547
00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:34,960
That's all absorbed by the human hypostasis. But to say

548
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:41,519
that there's only one person, the self subsistence of the

549
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,519
divine hypostasis is where the person who comes from, and

550
00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:50,799
then the inseparability of the non self subsistent hypostasis from

551
00:33:50,839 --> 00:33:57,920
the human side gets subsumed underneath this prosopic ontology. And

552
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,000
so basically what you have here is is that the

553
00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:08,840
preincarnate Sun is not co extensive with the incarnate Christ.

554
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,119
Speaker 5: Is that because because that is that why they think

555
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:16,599
that in hypostatize means a substantial change in the logos.

556
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: Well, they basically will give us the critique that they're

557
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,079
saying that the human nature does not have its own

558
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:32,840
respective hypostasis. And so if the divine hyposthesis is the

559
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:38,320
host for the humanity. The accidents are inhering into that

560
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:42,760
divine hypostasis, and therefore you're basically you have mutability in Christ.

561
00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:45,440
That's essentially their their their argument.

562
00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:47,519
Speaker 5: Well, but I thought that like when Agent came on,

563
00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:50,559
he was arguing about Maximus's use of in hypostatized, he

564
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:54,159
was arguing for some form of third nature or tertion

565
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,719
quid because he thought in hypostatized means that he's no

566
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,119
Now that he's composite, that means some kind of substantial change.

567
00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:05,920
So the critique was, why do you guys keep saying

568
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,760
that he underwent no change, which is what we say

569
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,840
in the liturgy, and yet at the same time he

570
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,840
underwent change by becoming incarnate. Well, it's just two different

571
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,079
senses of the word change. But what I'm asking is,

572
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:20,719
is this prosopic subsuming? Is this the same idea because

573
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,360
they don't seem to be able to conceive of different

574
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:24,280
types of change?

575
00:35:24,519 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

576
00:35:26,559 --> 00:35:29,159
Speaker 2: I understand what you're saying, Jay, I don't know what

577
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:34,360
exactly their arguments are. I have thoroughly listened to to Aigan.

578
00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:37,679
I'm just going to wait until we've put up out

579
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,760
all our stuff I'll see what.

580
00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 5: They're okay, but does their position seem to necessitate this

581
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,639
substantial change, right, because there's not a distinction between the

582
00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:52,599
logos and the nature that he has the nature person distinction.

583
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:58,000
So when the logos becomes incarnate, does that necessitate some

584
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,079
type of subsuming or substantial change which leads to the

585
00:36:03,199 --> 00:36:03,920
tertion quid.

586
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 6: I think they will probably just just sorry for interrupting,

587
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,079
but I think they'll probably say change.

588
00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: Well, the divine.

589
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,679
Speaker 6: Nature doesn't change, the divine hype statis didn't change in

590
00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:21,239
the union. Neither of the hype staces changed. They just united,

591
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,320
like the body and the soul is And that's basically

592
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,320
the main paradigm they use the body sould. They form

593
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,920
a natural union and produce another.

594
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 5: Nature which you can sell distinguish the body and the soul.

595
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 4: So they don't.

596
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 5: They don't like to talk about the distinction after the union, right,

597
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,840
other than a purely conceptual distinction, And that's why they're

598
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,960
often called, you know, the the terchion quid argument is

599
00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:44,800
usually made.

600
00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:48,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, so they will say we're distinguishing them like in

601
00:36:48,199 --> 00:36:51,920
the sense of like they are parts before the union, right,

602
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,719
And even those who speak of distinction after the union,

603
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,159
they will say we distinguished, we just don't call them two,

604
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:05,760
which is just kind of So Antioch actually makes this

605
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,360
argument against Sergius, who was I think he was like,

606
00:37:11,639 --> 00:37:15,199
I think he was closed. Like Sergius was basically pretty

607
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,679
ut q in in many ways, and Serrus was trying

608
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,360
to correct him, and he one of the things that

609
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,760
he does say, I might I might try to find

610
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,880
a reference on like the page, but he basically says,

611
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,559
we do distinguish them, but we don't call them to

612
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,199
Like he does say something to that effect, I'll find

613
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:30,760
it too.

614
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what I'm saying.

615
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I can just continue there with the thing

616
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,360
that before, I lose my train of thought. So yeah,

617
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,360
So they're they're trying to refute this idea where we

618
00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:50,639
identify person and hyposthesis as referring to the same ontology.

619
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,880
And so I look at this article that they put

620
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,960
out and I'm like, if this is the best that

621
00:37:56,079 --> 00:38:01,000
you guys have, you have the lay that I give

622
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:04,519
you in my community posts of well, I don't want

623
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:06,440
to say it for jstream, but you know how I

624
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:11,320
refer to to the Orientals. So this is their argument.

625
00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:14,760
I kid you not this is their argument. They say

626
00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:17,639
something to the effect. I mean, they do their quote

627
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:19,760
minding as usual, but this is basically the crux of

628
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,159
They say, through which the person prosopone of each is

629
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:32,159
made to lie in a peculiar hypostasis. So the fact

630
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:36,559
that they say the prosopone lies in the hypostass therefore

631
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,000
they are not the same thing. And they try to

632
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,039
then back this up, and they say, well, if they

633
00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:48,199
are the same thing, then let's just substitute one of

634
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,920
those terms back into the sentence and see how nonsensical

635
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,440
it sounds to say like, oh, through which the person

636
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,039
of each is made to lie in a peculiar person

637
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,480
or through actually the keypostasis of each is made to

638
00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:07,719
lie in eight peculiar hypostasis. You see how nonsensical that sounds.

639
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,079
So therefore they have to be two different ontologies. You

640
00:39:11,119 --> 00:39:14,000
can't just say the same You can't just make the

641
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,239
substitutions and say that you're talking about the same ontology.

642
00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:22,679
Speaker 5: And for those that are curious, we went into the

643
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,760
metaphysical distinctions in some of the first couple installments in

644
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,239
this series, so you'll need to go back and pay

645
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,559
attention to some of that metaphysical discourse that we laid

646
00:39:33,559 --> 00:39:34,199
out early on.

647
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what the Orientals what they don't actually understand

648
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,880
like they're trying. They're trying, but this is like, honestly

649
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,360
like the IQ's of Solafies trying to do metaphysics, like

650
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:55,239
they're trying. But you have to understand during this time

651
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,880
that the Cappadocians are writing that Saint Cereal is writing this.

652
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:08,480
This is where you have terms being used inconsistently across

653
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,440
the board with just about everybody, and everyone is having

654
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,119
difficulty trying to understand what everybody else is saying. Does

655
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,719
when you say hypostasis, are you talking about the nature?

656
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,199
Are you talking about the essence? Are you talking about? Like?

657
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,480
What are you talking about here? And so you will

658
00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:34,000
often find in Saint Cyril he will qualify his terms

659
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,719
and say one term and then followed up with another term,

660
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,920
so that he kind of helps narrow down what exactly

661
00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:46,360
he's trying to say, or he will rephrase something using

662
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,280
a different term to help you try and understand it.

663
00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:55,440
And likewise the Cappadocians do something similar. I mean, you

664
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,360
can even find Saint Gregory of nauseanzis it exists in

665
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,480
a race. He will say hypostasis or person, you choose

666
00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:08,000
whichever term you want to use. Like he's explicit in

667
00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:12,719
that respect. Okay, he's very clear. But what the Cappadocians

668
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,599
are talking about here is they're talking about don't get

669
00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:20,639
caught up in the modalist heresy. So when you are

670
00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:26,400
talking about persons and hypostases, that you're not professing the

671
00:41:26,519 --> 00:41:31,840
wrong theology to say one hypostasis but three persons, or

672
00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:36,840
to say like three essences three hypostatis, Like how are

673
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,880
you going to be using your terminology? And so basically

674
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,679
what the Cappadocians are saying in a quote like this

675
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,480
that Saint Cyril follows in the Cappadocians, he's identifying that

676
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:55,079
the person. When you're talking about the person lying in

677
00:41:55,119 --> 00:42:00,159
the keypostasis, it's referring to the same ontology. You're not

678
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:05,719
attributing this person to a different hypostasis. You're not identifying

679
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,800
this hypostasis with a different person, so that the person

680
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:13,440
is bound up to the hypostasis, not like you have

681
00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:16,800
this hypostasis with a little slot that you then put

682
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,840
the person inside it. Because you know how we know

683
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:25,360
that this is absurd, even on the Oriental paradigm, because

684
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:32,320
if person is your unifying ontology of your two hypostases,

685
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,280
divine in human, and you are giving me this quote

686
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,199
to refute me, and you're saying that the person lies

687
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:43,559
in the hypostasis, so are you telling me then that.

688
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 6: Right?

689
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 2: The trinity? So then where is Christ's human nature being subsumed?

690
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:55,400
Is it being subsumed by the hypostasis itself? Because the

691
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,679
person is in the hypostasis? Like, you don't see how

692
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,159
You're whole entire metaphysics is breaking down. It makes no sense,

693
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,719
never to mind like how it impacts your trinity. But

694
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,199
that was just a side point. I mean, it's like,

695
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,239
I love that you guys are actually writing these responses,

696
00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:19,760
I really really do, because it's allowing us to showcase

697
00:43:20,039 --> 00:43:24,039
the level of your stupidity. Just keep them coming, keep

698
00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:27,440
those quotes coming, because by the end of us getting

699
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,880
through all of the parts of these series, all the

700
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:33,320
articles that we're pushing and other stuff that we have

701
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,639
down the line, it's really going to settle this issue

702
00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:41,320
once and for all. So yes, please do refute me

703
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,440
or attempt to refute me. But besides that, the other

704
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,280
thing that I wanted to get into was one particular

705
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,920
topic that I was starting to talk about in my

706
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,800
recent sub stack articles that is relevant to compsit hypostases,

707
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:00,840
and it's actually going to we talked about a little

708
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,519
bit more detailed in a future part where I have

709
00:44:03,639 --> 00:44:08,559
it specifically set out for the oriental metaphysics. And this

710
00:44:08,679 --> 00:44:13,159
is that essentially for those of you guys who want

711
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:19,880
more technical terminology, because you consume the Oriental stuff, and

712
00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:23,280
all they're doing is they're just giving you quote minds

713
00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:28,280
and just word solid They're not actually giving you stuff

714
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:32,519
substantively to understand what is it metaphysically that they're trying

715
00:44:32,559 --> 00:44:37,400
to do with their system, and they are essentially their

716
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,400
paradigm is essentially a pollinarianism. Now they're gonna say it's

717
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,639
not and they're gonna say this and that and whatever,

718
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,039
and they will say, yes, we like we sorry, we

719
00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:52,400
disagree with the apollina air in heresy. We reject this,

720
00:44:52,519 --> 00:44:56,480
we reject that. But at the crux of how they

721
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:02,320
look at common in particular's metaph physically, it is essentially

722
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:07,480
a pollinarianism. And it is a pollinarianism because they take

723
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:17,159
nature and hypostasis to both be metaphysically particular And the

724
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:23,119
funny thing here is the Apollinarians, they make it an

725
00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:30,920
explicit point to deny conceptantiality of Christ with Father and humanity.

726
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:38,039
They say, we cannot have perfect concepstantiality. And the way that.

727
00:45:38,039 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 4: They perfectly they deny perfect.

728
00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 2: Yes, So the Apollinarians, the Apollinarians, they deny perfect consubstantiality

729
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,480
of Christ with the Father and with us in humanity.

730
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,440
They mandate that the divine human Christ he has to

731
00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:01,199
be different because for them, being concept financial is to

732
00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:06,800
divide Christ. The Apollinarian said that if we count two

733
00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:11,239
and if we say that there's this double homousios, then

734
00:46:11,559 --> 00:46:17,199
you have a divided Christ. And so their whole metaphysical

735
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,519
paradigm rests on denying consubstantiality in order to not say

736
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:25,119
that there are to Christ, to preserve a singular Christ,

737
00:46:25,159 --> 00:46:29,519
a singular ontology. And the move that they do to

738
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:36,679
ensure this is to say that nature and hypostasis both

739
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:43,360
are metaphysical particulars. And that's why you have that famous

740
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,400
phrase that they say, one incarnate nature, one nature, one hypostasis,

741
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:53,000
one person, just one across the board, and you never

742
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:54,840
say two.

743
00:46:55,559 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 5: Right, So this is why, this is why it ends

744
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,000
up in the John philipponas he is an error, right,

745
00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:05,760
because every hypostasis is just simply an individualized nature. So

746
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,039
is this basically a nominalist move that there are no universals?

747
00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:13,079
Speaker 2: Correct? Correct, this is one hundred percent normalism. And in

748
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:16,000
my metaphysics prime of my very first article that I wrote,

749
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,119
I basically said it, when you John Philipponis is not

750
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:25,920
doing anything different in the Oriental scheme than Severus. He's

751
00:47:26,119 --> 00:47:30,320
just saying what Severs doesn't want to say. But the

752
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:37,320
paradigm itself logically leads to what John Philipponis said explicitly,

753
00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:41,599
He's just taking Severs to his logical conclusion. And it's

754
00:47:41,679 --> 00:47:45,920
basically nominalism. That's that is exactly what is It is nominalism.

755
00:47:46,599 --> 00:47:52,960
And so then what ends up happening here is Apollinaris,

756
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,800
the Apollinarians, and you can read it there. Saint Justinian,

757
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,920
he quotes it in his book on the Person of Christ.

758
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,920
He's quoting one of the Apollinarians, which is very interesting

759
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,280
because the Apollinarians say, He's like, how can you guys

760
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:13,320
follow this formula? The one incarnate nature or the one

761
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,239
nature of the logos incarnate however you want to you

762
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,679
want to phrase it. He's saying, how can you guys

763
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,400
follow this formula when it was our father Apollinaris who

764
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:30,920
gave us this formula specifically to avoid two natures? And

765
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,440
but now this is very interesting is that the Apollinarians

766
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:43,079
themselves they say something very interesting. They're saying is the Cappadocians,

767
00:48:43,159 --> 00:48:48,079
and they name the two Gregory's, they name Saint Athanasius explicitly,

768
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:54,159
and they say, these guys teach two natures. So how

769
00:48:54,199 --> 00:48:56,119
is it that you guys are teaching two natures but

770
00:48:56,159 --> 00:49:01,159
subscribe to this formula that Apollinarius gave us specific against

771
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,000
two natures. So one, this is telling us so that

772
00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:09,280
we as Orthodox, we're actually reading the Fathers correctly when

773
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,679
we're quoting them for two natures. Right, So the Apollinarians

774
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,599
are actually siding with us against the Orientals and saying, yeah,

775
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,960
you guys are reading the Fathers the Cappadocians when they're

776
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,760
talking about two natures, you have them right, You actually

777
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,679
understand them correctly because we oppose them. So thank you

778
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,239
Pollinarians for clarifying that. So whenever now you see the

779
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,480
Orientals quote mine this whole mea feces and denying that

780
00:49:36,559 --> 00:49:39,440
the Fathers speak of two natures and this and that. Well,

781
00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:42,199
the Pollinarians themselves say, yeah, you guys are speaking.

782
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:43,639
Speaker 4: Well also two.

783
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 5: It's important to remember the Apollinaris is the originator of

784
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:53,519
the logo Sark Christology, which shows that it's not really

785
00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:56,840
issues of the terminology that's the main problem. I mean,

786
00:49:57,559 --> 00:50:01,320
words in terminology can be a problem, but there's an

787
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:06,360
orthodox way to read the logo Sarks Christology that originates

788
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,760
in a Pollinaris, which is very helpful for explaining the

789
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,440
asymmetrical Christology versus symmetrical.

790
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:13,639
Speaker 4: Yeah.

791
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,119
Speaker 5: That shows that that's why you can't solve this issue

792
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,039
by quote minds, because a lot of these words can

793
00:50:21,079 --> 00:50:24,519
be or ideas or concepts can be used in different ways.

794
00:50:24,599 --> 00:50:28,639
And also a Pollinaris shows that there is a nature

795
00:50:28,679 --> 00:50:32,159
person distinction in anthropology in the Church Fathers as well,

796
00:50:32,199 --> 00:50:34,239
because some of the people who argue against us will

797
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,119
argue that not only is there not really a nature

798
00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:40,480
person distinction in the Trinity, it doesn't exist in Christology

799
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,039
and it also doesn't exist in human anthropology. So, for example,

800
00:50:44,119 --> 00:50:47,199
the Latinizers who want to argue that everyone is guilty

801
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,039
in atom they're not even understanding that. Their root mistake

802
00:50:51,199 --> 00:50:53,719
is the failure to make a distinction between nature and

803
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,199
person in humans, to distinguish what's proper to nature versus

804
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,079
what's proper to the mode of willing, which personal. So

805
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,159
there's no way that it even makes sense to talk

806
00:51:03,199 --> 00:51:07,119
about guilt by nature or natural guilt, because guilt is

807
00:51:07,119 --> 00:51:09,800
only accrued by the mode of willing, which is personal.

808
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,280
So you have to make these distinctions or else you're

809
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:13,800
going to end up in some stupid heros and you

810
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,800
don't even realize it. And that's why I Losky is

811
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,119
one of the key I think insights. If you read

812
00:51:18,159 --> 00:51:20,920
his books, when he talks about Apollinaris, he makes this

813
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:23,840
very point that a Paulinarius's mistake was actually to not

814
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,920
make the nature person distinction in Christ and in human nature,

815
00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:35,559
because he replaces a trait of nature or property of

816
00:51:35,639 --> 00:51:39,679
nature for the person or the subject. So this notion

817
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:45,199
of personal theology or on a personal ontology the subject

818
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:50,000
agent christology is once again crucial here because the move

819
00:51:50,159 --> 00:51:54,679
that Apollinarius is making is to fend off a legitimate problem.

820
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,440
But the problem is that he goes into the opposite

821
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,559
extreme of thinking that the reasoning faculty is what is

822
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:02,960
the person. And you see this in William lane Craig.

823
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,039
William lane Craig today literally has the same position as

824
00:52:07,039 --> 00:52:11,480
a pollinaris. And so just like with the Monophysites going

825
00:52:11,519 --> 00:52:15,039
off in their heterodox error, William lane Craig repeats and

826
00:52:15,119 --> 00:52:17,800
goes off in the same heterodox error. Why because he

827
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:22,559
thinks of personhood as a trait of nature, namely the

828
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:25,239
rational faculty, the reasoning faculty. And that's exactly what a

829
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,440
polinarius did. So the Church's rejection of a pollinaris that

830
00:52:28,519 --> 00:52:30,039
constant to umber one.

831
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 4: Is already the pre.

832
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 5: Excommunicating of this stupid metaphysical mistake that you see the

833
00:52:36,599 --> 00:52:39,119
Orientals making, as well as Kay's pointing out.

834
00:52:40,079 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just a little bit more that I want

835
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,800
to add on to this, and then I'll just flip

836
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:50,159
back over to David. The idea here Now, this whole

837
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,599
Chritian quid argument, and the Orientals they think that they've

838
00:52:54,840 --> 00:53:00,199
answered this, that they've provided a solution that avoids the

839
00:53:00,199 --> 00:53:03,880
whole tertium quid. And I'm sorry to tell you, but

840
00:53:04,119 --> 00:53:08,719
no you haven't. Okay, I've heard your responses to the

841
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:13,440
tertion quid argument, and it's absolutely idiotic, and it just

842
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,760
showcases you don't actually understand the paradigm that you follow.

843
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:22,400
You want to profess something, and you think that merely

844
00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:27,800
professing it means that your metaphysical paradigm doesn't lead to it. Well,

845
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:33,880
it actually does. And so when you look at the

846
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:39,559
consequences of taking both nature and hypostasies as metaphysical particulars

847
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,079
and you want to combine them in some way, so

848
00:53:43,559 --> 00:53:47,719
you have basically two options here if you let them

849
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:52,119
to mix, or you don't let them to mix. So

850
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,679
if you don't let them to mix, then you have Nestorianism.

851
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,119
You've got two metaphysically particular natures and you have two

852
00:54:00,159 --> 00:54:05,199
metaphysically particular hypostasis and they remain, and that is Nestorianism.

853
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,639
They persist in whatever union you want to try to

854
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,559
put them together under. But then the other side here

855
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,039
is is you have to remember that according to the

856
00:54:18,079 --> 00:54:24,840
Oriental paradigm, when you say that Christ is one incarnate nature,

857
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:31,800
that is one nature that has to be a metaphysical particular.

858
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,559
It's not a common it's not just a label. It

859
00:54:36,599 --> 00:54:42,360
is metaphysically particular. And so when you have two particulars

860
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:48,400
come together and you're saying they are forming one particular,

861
00:54:49,599 --> 00:54:52,840
then that is your tertium quid. That is some kind

862
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:57,400
of divine human hybrid. But now they're going to try

863
00:54:57,679 --> 00:55:00,280
to get out of this, and they're going to say, well, well, no,

864
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:04,199
hold on a second. What we mean is that there's

865
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:09,079
this inseparability, and we can contemplate the differences of the

866
00:55:09,119 --> 00:55:14,559
particularities and theoria. They're like, so all the properties are there,

867
00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:20,199
but they're inseparable, and so this kind of like inseparability

868
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,480
is what we're counting as one. So it's like if

869
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:26,440
you think that you have a set, and so you

870
00:55:26,519 --> 00:55:29,400
have the divine set, you have the human set, and

871
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,639
you're just kind of putting them together, and you're just

872
00:55:31,679 --> 00:55:37,760
calling this new spectrum this continuum as one whole set,

873
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:43,159
and that is your one nature that is completely undivided,

874
00:55:43,199 --> 00:55:46,400
but you can still see the differences in the particularities.

875
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,519
That does not work. That doesn't get you out of

876
00:55:50,559 --> 00:55:59,199
your problem. Because your metaphysical particular nature subsists as one

877
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,920
name nature. That's how it has its subsistence. Because you're

878
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:09,920
saying that every hypostasis it cannot be a hypostatized or

879
00:56:10,119 --> 00:56:14,000
Anusian meaning existing without nature. So if you're saying you

880
00:56:14,119 --> 00:56:19,760
have only one hypostasis and it must have its own

881
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:24,119
usia or its own nature corresponding to it, then it

882
00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:29,800
has to subsist according to that one nature. And if

883
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,519
you now have this one hypostasis that is particularly existing

884
00:56:33,559 --> 00:56:36,679
in such a way, then that means you are breaking

885
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:42,800
consubstantiality with the Father and with humanity, because now Christ's

886
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,559
one nature is neither one of them. It doesn't matter

887
00:56:46,639 --> 00:56:51,239
that you can pick out these differing particularities, because that's

888
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:58,880
not how the metaphysics works out. And Severus quotes or

889
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:03,280
not Severus quot David quotes Severus where he's basically saying

890
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:09,519
that when you speak of distinctions, that is a dissolver

891
00:57:09,559 --> 00:57:13,639
of unity, So you can't speak of two natures.

892
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,119
Speaker 5: By the way, this was exactly what we've been saying

893
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:20,039
about so many heresies, right, So many heresies think of

894
00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:23,199
the tonistic nonsense that if you speak of an essence

895
00:57:23,239 --> 00:57:28,119
centered distinction that necessitates composition and division. It's exact same

896
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:31,880
here to distinguish, they somehow think necessitates division.

897
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:32,519
Speaker 4: I don't know why.

898
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody who really wants to know the details of

899
00:57:36,679 --> 00:57:42,840
this highly highly highly recommend David did a. I think

900
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,159
it's like a three hour long stream specifically on Severus,

901
00:57:47,199 --> 00:57:51,000
providing the receipts the quotes where he's talking about distinctions

902
00:57:51,039 --> 00:57:53,039
or disolvers of unity and stuff like that, and he's

903
00:57:53,119 --> 00:57:55,519
talking about fel Xander's of Ma Bog as well in

904
00:57:55,559 --> 00:58:02,519
his paradigm. It's in his refuting Oriental streams. It's unique.

905
00:58:02,719 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 6: Yes, it's in the Yes, it's in the playlist.

906
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, he says duality. Is it dissolver of unity? Is it?

907
00:58:09,639 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 5: Is it called David? Is it cultever? I'm trying to

908
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,119
pull it up to put it in here. Is it

909
00:58:13,199 --> 00:58:16,119
severs of antiox and mea phys like christology and context?

910
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,239
Speaker 3: I think so, yes, I think yes, that should be.

911
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:24,039
Speaker 6: Yes, that's the Yeah, that's the updated one from well

912
00:58:24,119 --> 00:58:26,519
updated the concert of five years ago. Yeah, that's where

913
00:58:26,559 --> 00:58:31,800
I look at Severus, felix Ins and other Oriental Father's end.

914
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 3: I also, Okay, did you finish, by the way, or.

915
00:58:36,559 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just just about finished, so.

916
00:58:38,519 --> 00:58:43,079
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll add some some stuff so you can finish.

917
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,679
Speaker 2: So yeah, So just just kind of wrap this up

918
00:58:45,719 --> 00:58:48,760
there is so it's it's quite it's quite simple. You

919
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,440
just simply ask like a simple set of questions. It's

920
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,440
to the orientals. You basically throw them to this. It's like, okay,

921
00:58:58,119 --> 00:59:00,760
so I'm actually gonna pull it up just read through

922
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:05,079
it because of the way that I formulated it. Let

923
00:59:05,119 --> 00:59:08,079
me just put up my article here. So basically, you

924
00:59:08,119 --> 00:59:12,159
ask the question, does the Father and Christ have the

925
00:59:12,199 --> 00:59:14,199
same nature? Yes?

926
00:59:15,119 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 3: What is that nature?

927
00:59:17,079 --> 00:59:22,079
Speaker 2: Divine? Does Christ and we do? Christ and we have

928
00:59:22,159 --> 00:59:22,960
the same nature?

929
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:23,719
Speaker 6: Yes?

930
00:59:24,639 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 2: What is that nature? Human? So how many natures does

931
00:59:28,599 --> 00:59:33,400
Christ have? Okay, you would think that the person with

932
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,320
some kind of intelligence is going to say too, right,

933
00:59:38,119 --> 00:59:41,000
because that's obvious that it is too And when you

934
00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:45,719
say that Christ is consubstantial with the Father, that is

935
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,159
one nature that you're counting right there. And you're going

936
00:59:49,199 --> 00:59:51,519
to have to count that as one nature because the

937
00:59:51,559 --> 00:59:55,119
Father and us humans, we don't share the same nature

938
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,159
as the Father. Okay, the Father does not have any

939
00:59:59,239 --> 01:00:03,559
human nature. So the conceptantiality that Christ has with the Father,

940
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,320
that's one nature. And then likewise with the human nature

941
01:00:07,559 --> 01:00:11,679
that's a second nature. So you have two natures. But

942
01:00:12,119 --> 01:00:17,400
the Orientals they will say one nature. They will do

943
01:00:17,519 --> 01:00:21,440
some gymnastics following severus, Well, they'll say, well, we don't

944
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,199
speak of divided natures or something like that, and that's

945
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,599
kind of like going to get around the problem. Like, no,

946
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,159
it doesn't get around the problem, because I'm asking you

947
01:00:32,719 --> 01:00:37,840
very simple questions with regards to Christ's conceptentiality. We're counting

948
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,519
the natures. So if you're telling me that as a result,

949
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:46,000
I have to profess one nature and I cannot say

950
01:00:46,079 --> 01:00:51,119
two natures. I'm forbidden to say two natures, then that

951
01:00:51,239 --> 01:00:55,559
means you're following that metaphysical paradigm of a pollinarius that

952
01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:01,400
denies consubstantiality. And that is the eye of it where

953
01:01:01,719 --> 01:01:06,360
the Orientals they want to preserve consubstantiality. That's what they

954
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,840
want to profess that, but they don't realize that their

955
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:16,599
metaphysical paradigm prohibits them. It's just the exact same how

956
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:21,039
Nistorius was saying, is no, I do not profess two persons.

957
01:01:21,039 --> 01:01:24,880
There's not two persons in Christ. But we say no,

958
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,840
this is your paradigm. This is what you're holding as

959
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:34,239
metaphysical particulars. This is the logical conclusion. So if you

960
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,920
follow the Orientals in exactly the same way, it doesn't

961
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:43,960
matter what you want to profess. That is not what

962
01:01:44,039 --> 01:01:50,639
your metaphysical paradigm teaches. You're following Severus. You're not following

963
01:01:50,719 --> 01:01:55,840
Saint Cyril, You're not following the Cappadocians. You're following Severus,

964
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:02,719
who set up his own separate metaphysical paradigm that aligns

965
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:04,199
with the pollinarius.

966
01:02:06,159 --> 01:02:09,199
Speaker 3: What's it all? Right? Yeah? I just want to add

967
01:02:09,239 --> 01:02:10,360
some quick things.

968
01:02:11,639 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 6: So in terms of the I'll give you the I'll

969
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:16,960
give you the quote that I was talking about in

970
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:17,599
regards to.

971
01:02:19,079 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 3: Difference, but not speaking of two.

972
01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:25,119
Speaker 6: So this is from Ian Torrence's book Cristolgia after Kalkadon.

973
01:02:26,159 --> 01:02:30,679
This book has the letters of Severus to Sergius, the

974
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,679
Utickian that I was talking about previously, and he quotes

975
01:02:34,719 --> 01:02:37,920
something from service. This is in page eighty three in

976
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:39,599
the book that I'm talking about.

977
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 3: So we have the we have the receipts here.

978
01:02:42,119 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 6: This is Torrance talk in severs turns that wants to

979
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:48,440
apply the insights of this example to Christology. First, he

980
01:02:48,519 --> 01:02:54,360
refers to Kiro's defense against Andrew over the I think

981
01:02:55,079 --> 01:02:58,199
I think he's citing Severus here, right. He says, it

982
01:02:58,239 --> 01:03:00,199
is quite blameless to recognize that the flesh is one

983
01:03:00,199 --> 01:03:02,920
thing and the only begotten another respect to their own natures.

984
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,679
But to recognize this difference is not to divide the

985
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,639
natures after the union. Just making sure like in the

986
01:03:09,719 --> 01:03:12,800
case that actually that's from Saint Kirole. There's another one

987
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:19,239
where Sever's speaks about I think this is page one

988
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:20,280
hundred and sixty.

989
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:22,639
Speaker 3: So he says, this is Sever's.

990
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:26,159
Speaker 6: Talking for absolutely one hundred percent, you should not you

991
01:03:26,159 --> 01:03:29,880
should confess immanual from two natures, divinity and humanity, and

992
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,360
not deny difference and particularity with respect to a natural

993
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,400
quality of the natures from which the One Christ is

994
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:40,079
brought together to an indivisible union. Right, So he says,

995
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,800
you can confess the distinction. But then he says, and

996
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,960
you should take it iniquitous to divide Christ into a duality.

997
01:03:46,079 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 3: So if you speak of.

998
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 6: Them as two, you're dividing the One Christ into a

999
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,320
duality of natures after the union.

1000
01:03:52,719 --> 01:03:53,559
Speaker 3: Basically that's so.

1001
01:03:55,199 --> 01:04:00,239
Speaker 6: It's kind of it's basically quite strange. And one thing

1002
01:04:00,239 --> 01:04:03,000
I liked from the article you're talking about kai is

1003
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:06,760
one of the things that Saint Basis says, we must

1004
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,719
therefore confess the faith by adding the particular to the comments.

1005
01:04:09,719 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 3: So we we speak of a particular thing.

1006
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 6: We add the common nature that it is a part.

1007
01:04:15,199 --> 01:04:16,079
Speaker 3: Of, so to speak.

1008
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 6: So he is the example of God, the Father, right,

1009
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:24,039
so the common God and then the particular, you know,

1010
01:04:24,079 --> 01:04:28,760
the of fatherhood, God the Father. I mean this kind

1011
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:33,239
of already explains orchestrage, because even if you are on

1012
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,639
office site, you will have to say that Christ is

1013
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:40,639
If he's doubly consubstantial, then Christ is in any any way.

1014
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:43,000
And of course anyone will try to defend that. Anyone

1015
01:04:43,039 --> 01:04:46,079
who this Christ is God and man will try to

1016
01:04:46,079 --> 01:04:49,000
say is double consubstantial. He's consumpstantial with God, and man

1017
01:04:49,079 --> 01:04:54,320
simultaneously will say that he is part he's part of

1018
01:04:54,679 --> 01:04:59,719
both the common things where it's divinity or humanity, right,

1019
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:03,639
he's part of both. Will try to indicate something regarding that.

1020
01:05:04,679 --> 01:05:08,320
But we said crisis in two natures. So we're naming

1021
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,480
the common things that he's part of the commonalities. And

1022
01:05:12,519 --> 01:05:14,360
we're also speaking this is the word of God, the

1023
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:16,079
particular word of God.

1024
01:05:17,039 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 3: Another thing. And this is very important.

1025
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 6: I talked about churchim quid, and I think it's important to.

1026
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 3: Actually explain, like what is the CHURCHI and cried.

1027
01:05:29,039 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 6: Of course, it's a third It's a new thing that

1028
01:05:31,719 --> 01:05:34,599
comes about as a result of the union of two things.

1029
01:05:34,639 --> 01:05:37,840
But how is it different from a natural union of

1030
01:05:38,159 --> 01:05:40,000
two natures, or how do we understand it.

1031
01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:41,719
Speaker 3: In what senses cetera.

1032
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 6: A key characteristic of churchim quids, and I think Jay,

1033
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,519
you can back me up on this, is that it

1034
01:05:47,639 --> 01:05:51,159
has new emergent properties. And in the case of rational beings,

1035
01:05:51,239 --> 01:05:55,639
the emergent activities arising from the union of the things

1036
01:05:55,679 --> 01:05:57,159
that it is united from. It that there are two

1037
01:05:57,239 --> 01:06:02,000
things or three things or four things or whatever. Now

1038
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,719
I'll try to find the exact page from the Okay, yeah,

1039
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:09,480
I don't have the exact page, but this is from

1040
01:06:09,519 --> 01:06:12,760
the same book that Ian Torren's book Severus of Antioch

1041
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,320
uses the example of valking on water as proof of

1042
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,079
this new energy. Basically, this emergent new activity. If you

1043
01:06:20,159 --> 01:06:22,239
have a new emergent activity as a result of a

1044
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,039
union of two things, that's a urch and quid. That's

1045
01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:26,440
how you that's kind of the definition of a chi

1046
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:28,559
and quid. There's a third new thing because it's not.

1047
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 5: Well, the new energy signify the new nature, right, yes,

1048
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:35,440
since energy sense energy follows and signifies nature.

1049
01:06:35,599 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 3: That that's okay, it's fixed.

1050
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1051
01:06:38,079 --> 01:06:41,519
Speaker 6: Text twenty six, where he commentation on Saint Denis's Theoreaplica,

1052
01:06:41,639 --> 01:06:44,199
saying that christ as a new tangric energy, which we

1053
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:46,840
previously explain rights. It's a new mode in which both

1054
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:48,079
the energies operate.

1055
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 3: In the one price.

1056
01:06:48,679 --> 01:06:51,199
Speaker 6: He says, if you understand in the sense of abolishing

1057
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,039
any duality, So there's no two wills, no two energies.

1058
01:06:54,119 --> 01:06:56,719
It's one and it's new in the sense of a

1059
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:02,199
chim quid. Severus says here again, I don't recall the

1060
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:04,679
exact page. I don't have the page number exactly, but

1061
01:07:05,159 --> 01:07:09,960
this is from again Ian Terence's book Christology after Kalkadilt.

1062
01:07:11,039 --> 01:07:13,519
This is one of the letters to Surgius the utik

1063
01:07:13,599 --> 01:07:16,679
in Monopseid. But he mingled the two, establishing that he

1064
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:20,320
is indivisibly won the same sudden word, who on our

1065
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:26,599
behalf unchangeably became a speaking as befits God and humanity. Thus, too,

1066
01:07:26,639 --> 01:07:28,719
it is often possible to see in his actions what

1067
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:30,639
belongs to the character of God and what is human

1068
01:07:30,719 --> 01:07:33,280
mingled together. So kind of okay, so far it seems

1069
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,760
good right, like he's talking about distinguishing the sayings of Christ.

1070
01:07:37,039 --> 01:07:39,639
But now this is the key part, For how will

1071
01:07:39,719 --> 01:07:41,719
anyone divide walking upon the water?

1072
01:07:42,159 --> 01:07:43,159
Speaker 3: What is he? What does he mean here?

1073
01:07:43,199 --> 01:07:45,119
Speaker 6: For to run upon the sea is foreign to the

1074
01:07:45,199 --> 01:07:48,079
human nature, but it is not proper to the divine

1075
01:07:48,159 --> 01:07:49,320
nature to use bodily feet.

1076
01:07:49,519 --> 01:07:51,039
Speaker 3: So here he's saying that.

1077
01:07:51,159 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 6: This activity that we're talking walking on water, it's needed divine,

1078
01:07:55,079 --> 01:07:57,440
it's needed human. And then it says therefore that action

1079
01:07:57,679 --> 01:08:00,440
is of the incarnate word, to whom belongs at the

1080
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:02,440
same time divine character and humanity invisibly.

1081
01:08:02,559 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 3: This is turchi and quid. This is the definition of

1082
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:05,000
a turchi in quid.

1083
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:07,119
Speaker 6: Out of the union of divinity in humanity, you have

1084
01:08:07,199 --> 01:08:11,199
a third nature with its emergent properties, emergent activities that

1085
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:14,920
cannot be found in either nature. Now someone might ask, well, David,

1086
01:08:15,159 --> 01:08:18,159
I mean Christ obviously walked on water, So how is

1087
01:08:18,399 --> 01:08:21,359
like is it your view churching quid too? No, Because,

1088
01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:24,960
as I've explained at the beginning of the stream for

1089
01:08:25,039 --> 01:08:27,359
those who might have missed it, the two natures are

1090
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,800
cooperating with wonders. So the human nature is elevated by

1091
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,840
the divine nature that is united in Christ. And as

1092
01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:38,079
Pope Saint Leo says, the two natures, the two forms

1093
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,479
cooperates with one another. So the human activity, the human

1094
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,479
energy is done in a divine manner. This is based

1095
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:49,039
on the union of the two natures in the hype

1096
01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:51,079
stags of Christ. So the human nature in Christ is

1097
01:08:51,159 --> 01:08:55,159
elevated by the union of the divinity, which gives him

1098
01:08:55,199 --> 01:08:58,399
the ability to do so and in fact, like true

1099
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:02,359
divine grace in a way like Saint Peter could also

1100
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:06,720
welcome water. But in terms of like what's natural to Christ. Again,

1101
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:09,560
the human nature was elevated, and this is kind of

1102
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,720
the point of ascension. Yes, that you're all elevated, or

1103
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:15,840
human nature becomes elevated by participation in the divine energies

1104
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:16,159
of God.

1105
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:19,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, the energy is here, the energies are crucial here.

1106
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,319
Speaker 5: And I'm gonna let you continue to Just want to

1107
01:09:21,359 --> 01:09:24,359
interject this point because I've noticed in a lot of

1108
01:09:24,359 --> 01:09:27,560
the debates and discussions with the Monophysites and these people,

1109
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,760
it's like they don't listen to what we are saying

1110
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,600
about in what way and how the human nature of

1111
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:37,520
Christ is deified. So the energies deify the human nature.

1112
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,640
That's why the Six Council says, his humanity, his human will,

1113
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:44,039
et cetera, were fully deified. So that's the way in

1114
01:09:44,119 --> 01:09:46,239
the sense in which there is a change in the

1115
01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:50,039
human nature when it's united to the logos h So

1116
01:09:50,159 --> 01:09:53,079
there is a real work, there is a real change.

1117
01:09:53,199 --> 01:09:56,159
It's not like we're denying that, you know, there's a

1118
01:09:56,239 --> 01:09:58,119
real union, because they're going to say that we're being

1119
01:09:58,119 --> 01:10:00,279
an historian. How can we be in a story and

1120
01:10:00,319 --> 01:10:03,039
when we think that there's a real deification of the

1121
01:10:03,119 --> 01:10:05,960
humanity of Christ. But that doesn't mean that the humanity

1122
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:08,920
of Christ turns into the divine essence or the divine nature.

1123
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,159
In fact, Saint Cyril denies that as well. Cyril says

1124
01:10:11,239 --> 01:10:17,479
that it's the uncreated grace and immortality that transforms and

1125
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,359
transfigures the human nature. And he doesn't even in the

1126
01:10:21,399 --> 01:10:23,880
two Letters to Six Senses, he still speaks of even

1127
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,359
after the incarnation to nature. So there's no problem for

1128
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,199
our position when it comes to a real union and

1129
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:35,079
a real deification of the human nature. Their position, because

1130
01:10:35,119 --> 01:10:38,000
of their lack of clarity on the essence inergiscinction, is

1131
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,800
the one that actually doesn't make any sense of the

1132
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,119
in what sense the Union deifies the humanity.

1133
01:10:47,279 --> 01:10:52,039
Speaker 6: Also, in this discussion that we can kind of speak of,

1134
01:10:52,159 --> 01:10:56,520
let's we can move to the modern examples of Orientals

1135
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:57,880
who try to discuss this.

1136
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 3: It's there's a very interesting quote from a.

1137
01:11:02,399 --> 01:11:07,279
Speaker 6: So called Pope Sda amongst the Orientals, and he's one

1138
01:11:07,319 --> 01:11:11,600
of their recent bishops. He is like considered very important,

1139
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:14,439
like he's highly revered. He's highly respected. So this is

1140
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:16,760
not just like some bishop, right, this is not like

1141
01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:20,359
the metropolitan callistus rare fallacy that we see very often

1142
01:11:20,399 --> 01:11:22,479
though metropolit clists, where it does have like a lot

1143
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:26,239
of good contributions of course, but like he gets treated

1144
01:11:26,279 --> 01:11:29,640
as if like he's like the one representative of Orthodoxy

1145
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:32,279
or something like that. But Shanuda is someone that's actually

1146
01:11:32,319 --> 01:11:35,640
really important. He has a book, it's very short, it's

1147
01:11:36,079 --> 01:11:38,520
obviously to kind of explain Oriental Christology.

1148
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 3: It's called On the Nature of Christ, and he.

1149
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:45,159
Speaker 6: Makes the argument that nature is the sum of natural properties,

1150
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,920
which I mean that's yes, nature is the sum of

1151
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:49,640
natural properties.

1152
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:52,079
Speaker 3: So far, it's like really good, that's what we're saying.

1153
01:11:52,119 --> 01:11:54,399
Speaker 6: That's why we say Christ is too natures, right, he

1154
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:56,560
has the natural property of divinity in humanity. That's why

1155
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:00,359
he has two natures. But I'll read you the quote

1156
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:04,239
to see where he goes wrong. The one incarrent nature

1157
01:12:04,239 --> 01:12:05,840
of God the word is not a third nature of

1158
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:09,520
Jesus Christ, which, as we've explained that there are new

1159
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:13,479
emergent properties and activities, so clearly it is a third nature.

1160
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:18,159
But obviously they argue against this because the nature is

1161
01:12:18,199 --> 01:12:21,319
the sum of properties or qualities, and since the two

1162
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:24,479
natures of Christ were united without mingling or change, then

1163
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:27,239
the incarnate nature is the sum of the qualities of

1164
01:12:27,399 --> 01:12:28,960
both his divinity and his humanity.

1165
01:12:29,079 --> 01:12:30,319
Speaker 3: Do you notice what's going on here?

1166
01:12:31,079 --> 01:12:35,600
Speaker 6: Nature isn't just It isn't just like person in it

1167
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:37,560
really is nature in the sense that we use it.

1168
01:12:38,119 --> 01:12:40,880
It's just that if nature is the sum of natural properties,

1169
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:43,680
and christis divine and human natural properties, well they're both

1170
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:46,520
part of the same set, right, And it's both part

1171
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:47,279
of the same set.

1172
01:12:47,159 --> 01:12:48,680
Speaker 3: Of the one nature.

1173
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 6: And so the one nature is in a sense basically

1174
01:12:51,079 --> 01:12:54,800
a distinct essence from divinity and humanity. And so when

1175
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:58,560
they use the body's soul analogy, they're really going like

1176
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:01,359
full trodden on it. As the body and the soul

1177
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:06,000
and the united formed human nature, right and as human nature,

1178
01:13:06,319 --> 01:13:10,159
there are certain activities like it that emergent properties and

1179
01:13:10,199 --> 01:13:13,000
activities as a result of the union of body and soul.

1180
01:13:14,319 --> 01:13:16,840
And it's it's it's it's a new nature, so to speak.

1181
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:20,199
It's basically in that sense, like completely it's not an analogy,

1182
01:13:20,399 --> 01:13:23,039
Like it's not an analogy in the sense that there

1183
01:13:23,119 --> 01:13:25,920
might be some distinctions within a nag, right, like we

1184
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:28,239
make the sun analogy, and of course there are some

1185
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:29,920
disanalogies regarding the sun.

1186
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 3: Like the sun, it's a physical thing, for example, it's

1187
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:34,319
a created thing and in this but here.

1188
01:13:34,239 --> 01:13:37,560
Speaker 6: Like it's basically completely, completely the same, like the analogy

1189
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:39,960
is completely the same. You have divinity in humanity and

1190
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:42,359
the form of new nature, a third new nature at

1191
01:13:42,399 --> 01:13:43,920
the end of this. And as I've said, and I

1192
01:13:44,039 --> 01:13:45,800
want to like I'm repeating this over and over again,

1193
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,840
but it's a really important point. The defining aspect of

1194
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:52,000
a urchi and quid is the new emergent properties and

1195
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:57,159
the case of rational beings, new emergent activities. That's kind

1196
01:13:57,199 --> 01:13:59,279
of the whole. And if you're talking about a nature

1197
01:13:59,399 --> 01:14:04,119
or an essence, then yes, the monophysi Christ necessarily is

1198
01:14:04,199 --> 01:14:06,399
eterchion quid. But as I said, the quote that I

1199
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:10,880
just gave from Pope Suda, it's from on the Nature

1200
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:18,279
of Christ, where he he also makes arguments against against

1201
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:20,880
Orthodoeskchristology in this in this.

1202
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:25,199
Speaker 2: Work, if I can just add to that, the whole

1203
01:14:25,319 --> 01:14:30,079
tersion quid line of argumentation. This is something that is

1204
01:14:30,279 --> 01:14:35,960
within the monophoseie camp itself. When you read the Cosology

1205
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:40,640
after Childsman book, the exchanges between Severus and Sergius. Sergius

1206
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:45,159
basically he starts the whole process of the exchanges because

1207
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,479
he's writing to this synod that.

1208
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 6: Has Sorry, Kai, can I can I just quirk something

1209
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:53,760
I did make a mistake here the quote it is

1210
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:57,399
not from Shnuda, Sorry, It's from metzpos and bishof Damiette.

1211
01:14:57,720 --> 01:14:58,840
Speaker 3: He's the Oriental.

1212
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 6: This is from his interpretation of the First Degree Statement

1213
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,920
on Christology, paragraph eight. So it's it's a it's a

1214
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,800
different work that I was refering. This is I'm refercing

1215
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:13,000
Mitropolitan Bishop of damiet the Oriental monophside Metropolitan of course,

1216
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:17,920
he's also an important figure in or in according to

1217
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:20,119
the Oriental, so he's he's not a random bishop.

1218
01:15:20,119 --> 01:15:21,239
Speaker 3: He's also very important.

1219
01:15:22,159 --> 01:15:24,600
Speaker 6: But yeah, the nature is the South. Natural properties is

1220
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:26,800
from Bishoy, not from Shnuda.

1221
01:15:27,119 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 3: So you can continue.

1222
01:15:28,079 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 2: Just want to correct myself, okay, Yeah, So basically what

1223
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:37,000
Sergius is doing is is the Synod has put out

1224
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:42,720
a statement of how to profess the monophside Christology accurately.

1225
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:49,439
And Sergius is puzzled because he's basically writing to the

1226
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:53,279
Synod and he's saying or to one one person there

1227
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:57,239
whatever who's connected with the Synod, and he's asking basically,

1228
01:15:57,319 --> 01:16:01,039
it's like, I have a bunch of these people who

1229
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:05,640
are from like the Orthodox camp, the like our our side,

1230
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:10,520
who want to become Monophysites. So basically the Diophysites want

1231
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:16,359
to become monophsites or miaphysites. And he's asking them, He's like,

1232
01:16:17,319 --> 01:16:20,920
how am I supposed to receive them? What are what

1233
01:16:21,119 --> 01:16:24,039
is the profession that I'm supposed to give to them?

1234
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,680
Because what you guys, as a senator, are telling me

1235
01:16:30,159 --> 01:16:33,520
they already profess this. It's like you're telling me that

1236
01:16:34,119 --> 01:16:40,640
we as menophicites, we don't speak of undivided natures or

1237
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:45,000
undivided particularities or undivided properties or whatever. It's like, we're

1238
01:16:45,039 --> 01:16:48,000
not making any kind of division here when we speak. Well,

1239
01:16:48,119 --> 01:16:51,840
when you ask these diophysites, they're saying the exact same thing.

1240
01:16:52,159 --> 01:16:57,319
They're not dividing the natures. So what is actually setting

1241
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:01,079
us apart from them that we have to confess them

1242
01:17:01,119 --> 01:17:04,920
in a different way? What is the proper verbiage? Because

1243
01:17:05,159 --> 01:17:10,800
Sergius was a true monophysite. For him, he openly professed

1244
01:17:11,279 --> 01:17:16,359
the tertium quid and he's making exactly these arguments that

1245
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:18,760
David is saying, is like, when you look at the

1246
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:23,000
activities of Christ, Sergius is making this argument. He's like saying,

1247
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:28,439
it's like, look, you're seeing Christ do what is not

1248
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,520
natural to God, and that it's not natural to man.

1249
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:36,359
He's doing some new thing that indicates that you have

1250
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:41,000
indeed a new nature. So Sergus is telling us, look,

1251
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:46,319
he's understanding the Apollinarian metaphysical paradigm. He's following it to

1252
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:52,079
its logical conclusion and saying, is therefore it's not in

1253
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:56,800
matter of speaking of undivided properties or particularities. We don't

1254
01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:01,279
even talk about undivided language. We have to profess one

1255
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:05,760
nature in its actual reality, in its particularity and it's

1256
01:18:06,079 --> 01:18:11,800
particular because now this one nature is in itself a

1257
01:18:12,039 --> 01:18:18,680
new particularity that is neither the particularities of divinity or humanity.

1258
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:23,039
It is something new. And so then that's what starts

1259
01:18:23,079 --> 01:18:28,119
this whole chain reaction between the exchanges between Severus and Sergius,

1260
01:18:28,199 --> 01:18:32,680
where you now have Severus doing just basically a bunch

1261
01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:38,319
of word solid, meaningless stuff, just trying to justify how

1262
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:42,239
not to count two and say one, but at the

1263
01:18:42,319 --> 01:18:45,319
same time admit that there's two. So that's basically what

1264
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,159
the entire exchange boils down to.

1265
01:18:54,159 --> 01:18:56,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean the point about like the numbering, I mean,

1266
01:18:57,760 --> 01:19:00,560
I think Jay you guys also talked about like they

1267
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:05,479
will invoke counting by division, right, and so if you're

1268
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:11,000
counting two things, you're necessarily by nature dividing. But I'll

1269
01:19:11,079 --> 01:19:13,960
say that like shortly, like my take on it in

1270
01:19:14,079 --> 01:19:17,760
general is that conception distinction already solves that. When sink

1271
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:22,720
Curl speaks about speaking of two united natures in theory alone,

1272
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:25,279
that's actually what he's saying, is saying that the separation

1273
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:29,439
is purely mental, but in reality there's like but they're

1274
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:32,079
in reality they are distinct, right, And so the two nous.

1275
01:19:34,359 --> 01:19:36,680
The separation that will come about from it is only

1276
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:40,159
in the mind. So it's not as I and the

1277
01:19:40,239 --> 01:19:43,359
Council of CalCon already says, the crisis acknowledged in two natures,

1278
01:19:43,359 --> 01:19:44,760
which is a mental activity.

1279
01:19:45,279 --> 01:19:49,279
Speaker 3: So it's hitting that trend. It was written by like

1280
01:19:50,319 --> 01:19:51,039
A Price.

1281
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:55,159
Speaker 6: Richard Price notes thirteen of the eighteen draft writers, where

1282
01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:58,880
I think they were like in emphasis two and they

1283
01:19:59,039 --> 01:20:02,039
like voted with you screws and the other people like

1284
01:20:02,159 --> 01:20:08,000
none of them were like sympathetic to like the Antioquan,

1285
01:20:08,079 --> 01:20:11,279
like Nestorianish bishops, and they were all like against them.

1286
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:13,800
So it's like these people that wrote and I will

1287
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:16,560
say they probably are hitting on that trend as well.

1288
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 3: So it's to me it's it's a non problem. But

1289
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:19,399
also at the same time.

1290
01:20:19,399 --> 01:20:22,880
Speaker 6: Especially when we're discussing these things today, right like we

1291
01:20:23,039 --> 01:20:27,079
also speak of like number things by distinction, and it's

1292
01:20:27,359 --> 01:20:28,960
and of course when we talk about the Trinity, I

1293
01:20:29,039 --> 01:20:32,359
mean that's the that's the most premier example. When we

1294
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:34,479
speak of three persons in the Trinity, we're not dividing

1295
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:36,800
the persons of the Trinity. And I know that there

1296
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:39,920
are some fathers that speak of like indivisible division, and

1297
01:20:40,039 --> 01:20:42,680
that the person of the trinity are divided by the hypestasis.

1298
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:45,760
Speaker 5: But yeah, people are so low to here they think

1299
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:48,479
that that type of language means that you're like cutting

1300
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:49,560
it up in the parts.

1301
01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:50,880
Speaker 4: It's just so exactly.

1302
01:20:52,159 --> 01:20:54,880
Speaker 2: I certain interject there was a kid you not. I

1303
01:20:55,039 --> 01:20:59,000
literally saw a comment recently that they're they actually created

1304
01:20:59,039 --> 01:21:02,720
a new counting method. So they're saying, is we count

1305
01:21:03,159 --> 01:21:07,039
the trinity, we use counting by division, but when we're

1306
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:12,000
in the chrystological context and the nature's we count by composition,

1307
01:21:14,399 --> 01:21:19,760
which I have no idea of what that means. I'm

1308
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:22,439
not that stupid to actually understand what that means. I

1309
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:23,439
cannot fathom it.

1310
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 6: Then you man, you have to I mean, this is

1311
01:21:29,159 --> 01:21:33,439
kind of like Oham's Oarkham's razor becomes useful here. I mean,

1312
01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:36,640
if you have to make up a bunch of made

1313
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:42,439
up nonsense counters exactly like just a bunch of counterintuitive

1314
01:21:43,159 --> 01:21:46,800
logical I don't know tools to save your system.

1315
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 3: Maybe the system is the problem. Maybe you should digit

1316
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,880
the system and become Orthodox. And that's that right, Like.

1317
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:56,079
Speaker 6: Because in Orthodox especially like may you speak about development,

1318
01:21:56,119 --> 01:21:58,479
like theological development. This is actually a positive example of

1319
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:00,439
this because at the time of seeing the ask, because

1320
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:04,840
the counting becomes by distinction. So when we speak of

1321
01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:07,520
two natures in Christ, we're counting by distinction, not by

1322
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:11,640
like dividing or separating them from each other. And this

1323
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:14,800
is why, like the language of conceptual distinction becomes like

1324
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:17,199
phased out over time.

1325
01:22:17,079 --> 01:22:19,159
Speaker 3: And like you see less and less of it in

1326
01:22:19,239 --> 01:22:21,279
the Fathers. You see it sometimes you see it Maximus.

1327
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,520
Speaker 6: And another thing about conceptual distinction, I mean, I guess

1328
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:26,560
I'll add this to my video too, but like the

1329
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:28,760
conception distinction is made about the body and the soul

1330
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:30,520
as well, does that mean that the body and the

1331
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:31,000
soul are not.

1332
01:22:31,039 --> 01:22:33,119
Speaker 3: Really distinct from each other obviously, Like not.

1333
01:22:33,359 --> 01:22:36,239
Speaker 6: It's just stating that they are wanting in reality, right,

1334
01:22:36,319 --> 01:22:38,920
Like they together are wanting in reality, And they're only

1335
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,279
two in our mind in the sense of like divided things,

1336
01:22:42,319 --> 01:22:44,600
because the body and the soul are only divided in death.

1337
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:48,039
And that's like it's an unnatural thing. It's by nature

1338
01:22:48,039 --> 01:22:52,119
it's supposed to exist together. So this kind of understanding

1339
01:22:52,159 --> 01:22:56,479
of like conceptualization is completely far off. Anyways, I A

1340
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:58,560
I'll have a video coming soon in the future that

1341
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:02,159
discusses that. But I just want that's great also too.

1342
01:23:02,319 --> 01:23:04,359
Speaker 5: I mean, everybody who doesn't have this book should get

1343
01:23:04,359 --> 01:23:07,880
a hold of Divine Energies and Divine Action, which is

1344
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:11,079
a bunch of the collected PDFs from Bradshaw that we're

1345
01:23:11,079 --> 01:23:15,560
floating around forever Doctor Bradshaw, because this one has the full.

1346
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 4: Concept of Divine Energies essay.

1347
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,279
Speaker 5: It's the very first one, and so he's going to

1348
01:23:21,359 --> 01:23:25,760
deal with conceptual distinct It's either that one or maybe

1349
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:27,520
it's no, it's essence energy, What kind of distinction?

1350
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:30,840
Speaker 4: Which is the second or third essay? Third essay? So

1351
01:23:31,039 --> 01:23:33,079
essen's energy? What kind of distinction is?

1352
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:35,800
Speaker 5: You know something that in the discord we've dealt with

1353
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:40,640
and promoted for seven or eight years now, and it's

1354
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:41,119
in print.

1355
01:23:41,199 --> 01:23:42,159
Speaker 4: So guys, there's really no.

1356
01:23:42,239 --> 01:23:44,600
Speaker 5: Excuse unless you're just lazy and you're not going to

1357
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:48,680
do the reading to you know, go and understand. For example,

1358
01:23:49,279 --> 01:23:52,720
Saint Besia Saint Basil says that distinction between nature and

1359
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:57,399
person is catapanoya and if catapanoya only means mental and

1360
01:23:57,479 --> 01:24:01,640
not also possibly a real distinction, then you're not really trinitarian.

1361
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 4: So are we all modalists now? Begetting of the sun.

1362
01:24:05,119 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 5: Eternal begetting is also spoken of as catapanoya, the distinctions

1363
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:12,479
of the person catapanoya. So you understand that this reductionist

1364
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:15,880
idea to think that, oh that means only in the mind.

1365
01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:19,319
Speaker 4: Again, this is a stupid thing that we've been refuting

1366
01:24:19,399 --> 01:24:21,880
for like eight years now coming out as.

1367
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:25,319
Speaker 6: Also also, do you know who is the one who

1368
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:28,760
actually believed that about Epinoia and conceptualization?

1369
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:30,000
Speaker 4: Is it Eunomius?

1370
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:31,640
Speaker 3: Yes, that's you know it's.

1371
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:35,359
Speaker 6: Position, And you'll you'll see this very clearly if you

1372
01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:39,039
read Saint gregoff Nissa's response to Eunomia's second book. It's

1373
01:24:39,079 --> 01:24:41,199
not against you know me spoke too of Sycregrinis. It's

1374
01:24:41,279 --> 01:24:45,239
response to Younomis's second book. It's on New Advent. I mean,

1375
01:24:45,279 --> 01:24:47,239
it's also in Saint Basils against you know means. But

1376
01:24:47,520 --> 01:24:51,119
Saint greg Nissa's like that entire book is all about

1377
01:24:51,159 --> 01:24:54,920
refuting that idea. So if you read that, you'll you'll

1378
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:57,720
basically see exactly the points that we're making on this,

1379
01:24:57,960 --> 01:25:02,560
Like the whole book is about conceptualization being real, and

1380
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:05,600
he basically says like he insults you know means for

1381
01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:08,960
suggestion that conceptualization only means something that's in the mind

1382
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:11,560
that doesn't corresponder is not anality.

1383
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:16,159
Speaker 5: And this is exactly what all these just retarded Roman

1384
01:25:16,199 --> 01:25:19,720
caloctomas have said against us, as well as the factions

1385
01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:22,640
of the retards in our own so called orthodox circles.

1386
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:25,199
I'm not saying we're not Orthodox, but you know what

1387
01:25:25,239 --> 01:25:28,720
I'm talking about, the circles within so called Orthodoxy that

1388
01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:35,319
talk so much about conceptual distinction and all this stuff

1389
01:25:35,359 --> 01:25:35,960
over the years.

1390
01:25:42,199 --> 01:25:46,720
Speaker 3: Go ahead, yeah, kay, do you have anything else to add?

1391
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:50,439
I'm just I think I covered pretty much everything I

1392
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:51,359
had in mind so far.

1393
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 2: Unless yeah, yeah, no, I covered what I wanted to cover.

1394
01:25:55,279 --> 01:25:57,520
I know that I think you wanted to start wrapping

1395
01:25:57,600 --> 01:26:00,680
things up, So maybe we should just leave the other

1396
01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:02,960
stuff that I wanted to discuss until the next stream.

1397
01:26:03,399 --> 01:26:08,119
It's more the essence energies distinction and why it's specifically

1398
01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:11,800
relevant to Christology, not just in the Trinitarian context, but

1399
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:15,920
specifically within Christology, and I think maybe we can just

1400
01:26:16,039 --> 01:26:18,039
leave that for the next stream.

1401
01:26:20,039 --> 01:26:21,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I think that's a that's a good idea.

1402
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:23,840
What do you say, ja, Yeah, that's fine. I'll read

1403
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:26,920
a couple of super chests. M J M kg says

1404
01:26:27,239 --> 01:26:29,640
for seven dollars. Wow, I didn't have this on my

1405
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:35,159
bingo card this month. God, bless you guys, ch Jesus Christ.

1406
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:44,119
Speaker 3: Excuse me, bless you, bless you. That's that's that's need love.

1407
01:26:44,239 --> 01:26:46,560
Blessing Kai Kai.

1408
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:49,439
Speaker 5: You surprised me with your monastic beard. He was on

1409
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:51,720
a few months ago and had a normal beard. H.

1410
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:57,119
Brosey five dollars, Orthosowski two dollars. In Oriental Orthodoxy, when

1411
01:26:57,159 --> 01:26:59,359
they talk about this one nature of Christ, is it

1412
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:00,680
created uncreated?

1413
01:27:02,319 --> 01:27:04,840
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a classic objection that I make.

1414
01:27:06,239 --> 01:27:10,239
Speaker 6: Essentially, the answer will eventually just boil down to interview,

1415
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:13,359
is that it's both because they're both parts of like

1416
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:16,359
the natural properties of both the natures that he is from,

1417
01:27:17,079 --> 01:27:20,640
So it's simultaneously created and uncreated. But I mean, of course,

1418
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:23,239
when you make that kind of an argument, you're distinguishing,

1419
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:25,119
you're distinguishing two natures.

1420
01:27:25,359 --> 01:27:26,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it doesn't.

1421
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:31,640
Speaker 6: And sorry, but remember bishop is quote that I cited, right,

1422
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:38,399
bishofs quote He again, I'm very thankful to him for

1423
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:42,600
admitting that nature is the sum of natural properties, right,

1424
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,680
And if you have contradictory natural properties, like created an

1425
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:49,640
uncreated then obviously they have to be distinguished into their

1426
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,960
proper categories. This is just a clear example, a very

1427
01:27:53,039 --> 01:27:56,760
clear example of this. Now we might get an objection

1428
01:27:56,960 --> 01:27:59,039
about the body and the soul. I mean, this is

1429
01:27:59,079 --> 01:28:01,560
my personal take. I don't think the body and the

1430
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:04,880
soul have contradictory properties. And that's that's kind of like

1431
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:08,920
a different debate like that gets more into the mind

1432
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:10,479
broad body problem in philosophy.

1433
01:28:11,359 --> 01:28:12,520
Speaker 3: But I don't think they are.

1434
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:15,920
Speaker 6: I don't think their physicality is contradictory. Whereas with God

1435
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:19,039
it is because God is on the present right, he's

1436
01:28:19,079 --> 01:28:24,880
beyond presence, so created presence, it does not match, and

1437
01:28:25,239 --> 01:28:30,840
the most obvious one being created or uncreated, that's clearly opposite.

1438
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:33,640
That's there's clearly like some kind of a duality there,

1439
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:36,640
I will say, And like one thing cannot be simultaneously

1440
01:28:36,720 --> 01:28:38,119
be both of them unless they are.

1441
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:43,079
Speaker 3: Apportioned in their proper natures. So the answer both will

1442
01:28:43,199 --> 01:28:46,319
logically lead you to confessing two natures in Christ, but

1443
01:28:46,439 --> 01:28:47,920
of course they don't want to do that.

1444
01:28:51,279 --> 01:28:54,119
Speaker 5: Neckw ten dollars. Thank you for your time and your

1445
01:28:54,159 --> 01:28:57,239
hard work. Irrationally irri irritable, So.

1446
01:28:57,439 --> 01:28:58,319
Speaker 4: Thank you, guys, thank you.

1447
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:01,720
Speaker 5: Irrationally, let's see, well, I'm five dollars, he says, thank you,

1448
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:04,359
Thank you. Guys, want to remind you that I'm about

1449
01:29:04,399 --> 01:29:07,039
to have an interview here in about an hour. We'll

1450
01:29:07,079 --> 01:29:10,479
be right back with Alex Soren. We've been chatting. He

1451
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:12,600
seems like a solid dude, and so I'm looking forward

1452
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:15,800
to having a conversation about him with him about apologetics

1453
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:17,720
in general. He's going to be debating some of the

1454
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:21,600
Roman Catholics very soon, and so we're looking forward to that.

1455
01:29:22,159 --> 01:29:24,600
It's great to see so many dudes kind of stepping

1456
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:26,880
up to the plate and getting out here and taking

1457
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:31,079
on all this nonsense. So be sure and follow Alex

1458
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:34,760
as well. We'll be talking, as I said here in

1459
01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:40,560
about an hour. So again, if you want to talk

1460
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:44,239
about a debate, we can talk about that. But the

1461
01:29:44,319 --> 01:29:46,640
way that you guys act when it comes to trying

1462
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:48,640
to set up a debate, you act worse than anyone

1463
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:52,399
else that we interact with. So, I mean, we had

1464
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:55,720
all the same stuff with Severn Zelot. This is all

1465
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:59,359
a repeat of like twenty eighteen with David and Severn Zealot,

1466
01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:01,279
and now it's just a new.

1467
01:30:03,079 --> 01:30:03,399
Speaker 4: Person.

1468
01:30:04,119 --> 01:30:08,319
Speaker 5: So I'm gonna add Kai, is there ever a possibility

1469
01:30:08,319 --> 01:30:09,159
to debate with Aigan.

1470
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:15,239
Speaker 2: I've given him my conditions. Basically, I want him to

1471
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:19,319
commit to writing in a formal way. I've done several

1472
01:30:19,359 --> 01:30:21,479
of articles. I've got a lot of stuff that I'm

1473
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,760
putting out there, so I'm not holding him to any

1474
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:29,199
standard that I'm not myself subjecting myself to that I

1475
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:34,079
want it committed in writing fully fledged out the whole

1476
01:30:34,199 --> 01:30:40,079
metaphysical paradigm. Explain the oriental position the way you guys

1477
01:30:40,199 --> 01:30:47,600
profess it, and you need to demonstrate from metaphysics how

1478
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:54,800
the orthodox position is Nestorian. I'm on record putting out

1479
01:30:55,039 --> 01:30:59,600
what our metaphysical paradigm is. I'm on record explaining your

1480
01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:03,279
meta physical paradigm. I'm identifying the problems with it. I'm

1481
01:31:03,359 --> 01:31:07,600
showing logically how you run into problems with it. So

1482
01:31:07,960 --> 01:31:12,039
I expect the same as that, and when we're done

1483
01:31:12,159 --> 01:31:15,079
our entire nine part ten part series, whatever it is,

1484
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:21,119
if something like that materializes, then I am open to

1485
01:31:21,279 --> 01:31:23,680
a debate. I know, maybe Jay, you are what.

1486
01:31:25,119 --> 01:31:27,039
Speaker 5: Is the reason Kai and I don't have a problem

1487
01:31:27,119 --> 01:31:28,840
with it, But what's the reason that you're wanting him

1488
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:33,760
to put into two written form exactly what his position is.

1489
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:37,880
Speaker 2: Okay. So the reason why I wanted an written, nice

1490
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:42,359
formal structure is one I want people to be able

1491
01:31:42,479 --> 01:31:47,319
to consult this material before the debate where it's completely

1492
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:51,039
clearly laid out, so we're not spending.

1493
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:54,279
Speaker 4: Like so it's debates over meanings of words.

1494
01:31:54,760 --> 01:31:58,439
Speaker 2: Exactly, so we're not debating meanings of words, that we're

1495
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:01,920
not talking past each each other. That it's not just

1496
01:32:02,239 --> 01:32:05,680
quote minds. And I guarantee you this debate will not

1497
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:08,880
be quote minds because the debate is going to be

1498
01:32:09,239 --> 01:32:13,079
the metaphysics of the incarnation. So Egan, if you come

1499
01:32:13,199 --> 01:32:17,319
into this, you're debating metaphysics, So all that quote minding

1500
01:32:17,399 --> 01:32:19,960
that you're doing, it's not going to help you. I'm

1501
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,520
going to be testing your intelligence. How can you reason?

1502
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:26,960
Where is your logic? And you're gonna get slaughtered, buddy,

1503
01:32:27,119 --> 01:32:31,359
You're gonna get completely slaughtered. Okay, it's a metaphysics debate,

1504
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:34,439
So you need to commit to writing so that people

1505
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:37,399
can see it. We know exactly what the position is

1506
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,000
and it can be something that's referenced in the debate

1507
01:32:41,319 --> 01:32:45,039
rather than us wasting time going over terms and trying

1508
01:32:45,079 --> 01:32:49,039
to define stuff and whatnot, but just kind of go

1509
01:32:49,119 --> 01:32:55,199
onto this. Please keep writing those refutations, keep doing the streams.

1510
01:32:55,479 --> 01:33:00,159
You're providing us with lots of gold. And with that

1511
01:33:00,399 --> 01:33:03,359
article that you guys put out today, please put more

1512
01:33:03,439 --> 01:33:07,880
out because I'm going to show you how your quote

1513
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:15,479
mining makes you look absolutely stupid, not understanding the metaphysical position,

1514
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:19,199
what the Fathers are saying, what your own position holds to,

1515
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:23,319
and that it's going to really illustrate that you guys

1516
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,199
have no substance. You just see this word me a

1517
01:33:27,359 --> 01:33:31,039
fesis and you think, now the Fathers teach me a

1518
01:33:31,119 --> 01:33:36,880
fesis according to your paradigm. They don't. They don't. Egan,

1519
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:39,199
Come on, bring it.

1520
01:33:42,680 --> 01:33:45,039
Speaker 5: Eigan looks like aids incarnate. By the way, for those

1521
01:33:45,079 --> 01:33:47,199
that are curious, And I don't care about what you

1522
01:33:47,279 --> 01:33:50,159
think about what I mean. Uh, And I say that

1523
01:33:50,279 --> 01:33:53,640
because this guy's absolutely unhinged, like you can't oh. When

1524
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:56,159
he called in, he basically just screamed and spurred out,

1525
01:33:56,239 --> 01:33:58,479
like you can't have a rational conversation with these people

1526
01:33:58,479 --> 01:33:59,760
that are back like five year olds.

1527
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:05,960
Speaker 2: Jay, There's actually something very funny. Egan debated a Mohammedan

1528
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:12,840
some time ago and would not give him the complete

1529
01:34:13,119 --> 01:34:17,920
audio recording of that debate, and he hid it from him.

1530
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:21,840
And instead what he did was he just clipped certain sections,

1531
01:34:22,359 --> 01:34:27,000
made kind of this like sounds, and like just basically

1532
01:34:27,119 --> 01:34:30,560
tried to make the Muslim the Mohammedan look stupid with

1533
01:34:30,840 --> 01:34:36,479
just these clipped segments. But somebody, apparently from Egan's own side,

1534
01:34:37,239 --> 01:34:41,640
ended up giving the entire recording of the debate to

1535
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:46,640
the Mohammedan himself, and he's uploading it now unedited, and

1536
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:51,119
when you listen to it, this guy cannot answer some

1537
01:34:51,279 --> 01:34:57,479
of the most basic questions about Christology, about triadology. Of course,

1538
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:02,399
he got angry that this got leaked because it shows

1539
01:35:02,479 --> 01:35:08,720
him as an absolute ignoramus, absolutely embarrassing performance.

1540
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:11,800
Speaker 5: Well, let's not forget Yeah, I'm not surprised that at all.

1541
01:35:12,119 --> 01:35:16,720
Let's not forget too that roots of Orthodoxy was exposed

1542
01:35:16,760 --> 01:35:20,239
as a scammer, Like we said, Christ in Culture LARPing

1543
01:35:20,319 --> 01:35:22,720
as Orthodox and then admitting the other day on his channel.

1544
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:25,560
So notice a repeat pattern two of not just being

1545
01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:28,840
absolutely totally out out to lunch. When it comes to

1546
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:33,640
understanding these basic metaphysical terms and Christology and Batristics, they

1547
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:37,279
also have to resort to scamming. I mean they're literal scammers,

1548
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:41,079
just like their Indian cousins. Like they literally have to

1549
01:35:41,199 --> 01:35:45,039
do online scams, pretend to be Orthodox, and then after

1550
01:35:45,079 --> 01:35:46,880
a year or two of building up an audience, then

1551
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:49,039
they admit, oh no, actually we're Orientals.

1552
01:35:49,039 --> 01:35:49,560
Speaker 4: Were cops.

1553
01:35:50,039 --> 01:35:52,479
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just classic scammery. I know the roots

1554
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:56,039
of Orthodoxy, dude is supposedly Roman Catholic. But it's not

1555
01:35:56,159 --> 01:35:59,000
any better because the whole scam there was also to

1556
01:35:59,359 --> 01:36:03,119
you know, bring on Oriental Orthodox priests and deacons or

1557
01:36:03,159 --> 01:36:06,600
whatever under the guise of oh I'm actually uh kind

1558
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:09,520
of interested in Orthodoxy, but it's all just Dowa.

1559
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:11,079
Speaker 4: It's all Dawa tactics exactly.

1560
01:36:11,359 --> 01:36:14,600
Speaker 5: Are we surprised that this ethnic cult also does the

1561
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:17,239
same Dowa tactics as their relatives.

1562
01:36:20,680 --> 01:36:21,680
Speaker 2: I go, of course.

1563
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:22,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1564
01:36:23,119 --> 01:36:25,720
Speaker 6: Like the lead, the leaking of the full debate to

1565
01:36:26,239 --> 01:36:29,239
the opposing side, I mean, history repeating itself.

1566
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:30,119
Speaker 4: Who did that?

1567
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:34,800
Speaker 3: Like yeah, like like in the seventh century really reminded me.

1568
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:39,800
Speaker 6: Of the seventh century of a sudden history history history

1569
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:41,399
A buffs will know what I'm talking about.

1570
01:36:43,279 --> 01:36:45,640
Speaker 2: I think Kai got it, Yeah, I got it, I

1571
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:46,000
got it.

1572
01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:47,680
Speaker 4: Jordan lofgrin five dollars.

1573
01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:50,479
Speaker 5: Did you see that Michael Knowles was with Ruseln and

1574
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:53,399
they were arguing that the pope cannot be false if

1575
01:36:53,479 --> 01:36:56,279
the pope was false, when the pope would be false.

1576
01:36:57,359 --> 01:36:59,319
I did not see that specific section. I saw them

1577
01:36:59,399 --> 01:37:02,119
talking about Worth Bros. But I mean, I don't know

1578
01:37:02,159 --> 01:37:06,720
if you saw my debate with Ruslan. Ruslan is a

1579
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:11,600
little uh. Ruselan is way over confident in his debate skills,

1580
01:37:12,359 --> 01:37:16,279
and he didn't do any good in the debate with me.

1581
01:37:16,640 --> 01:37:18,079
And he thinks he's going to go out here in

1582
01:37:18,159 --> 01:37:23,399
debate fwints or candae. I mean he's going to get demolished.

1583
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:26,359
Missed a fist, sent five memberships. What's up man, Thank

1584
01:37:26,399 --> 01:37:28,359
you so much. Let's see we've got some more super

1585
01:37:28,439 --> 01:37:33,840
chats over here. We got Flavias says for ten dollars,

1586
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:35,119
thank you, Thank you so much.

1587
01:37:35,159 --> 01:37:39,600
Speaker 4: Flavia's chorro Mahicano. I think we I think I missed

1588
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:40,359
this one last time.

1589
01:37:40,399 --> 01:37:43,239
Speaker 5: He says, nobody hates socialists more than I do. I'm

1590
01:37:43,319 --> 01:37:46,319
so anti social I don't talk to anybody. Oh, he's

1591
01:37:46,359 --> 01:37:49,079
got a zinger there, guys, remember and fall, remember to

1592
01:37:49,159 --> 01:37:52,079
follow Kai and remember to follow David Rhuan on their channels.

1593
01:37:52,479 --> 01:37:55,239
They are linked in the show description. I had to

1594
01:37:55,479 --> 01:37:57,239
Davey keeps changing the name of his channel, so I'm

1595
01:37:57,239 --> 01:37:58,960
gonna have to find the new name of the channel,

1596
01:37:58,960 --> 01:37:59,520
which I think is.

1597
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:02,079
Speaker 3: Just I mean, it's just just.

1598
01:38:04,159 --> 01:38:06,079
Speaker 5: So it's like, you know, he's turning into like a

1599
01:38:06,560 --> 01:38:10,119
like a luxury brand, like a Gucci and now it's

1600
01:38:10,159 --> 01:38:11,199
just Dave David.

1601
01:38:12,279 --> 01:38:15,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's actually a very accurate description.

1602
01:38:17,199 --> 01:38:22,600
Speaker 5: H extreme band, like the luxury bland brand of refuting

1603
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:26,560
like dumb dumbs, right, Like this is David has the luxury.

1604
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:34,520
It's the Gucci of refuting retards, right and absolutely, Kai,

1605
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:37,079
what what's up next? Actually, what's up next for both

1606
01:38:37,079 --> 01:38:38,760
of you guys, And then we're gonna call it an

1607
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:43,039
evening and then we will come back with Alex Soren

1608
01:38:43,079 --> 01:38:44,600
and I on a live stream here in a moment.

1609
01:38:46,239 --> 01:38:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, for now, I think I'm gonna stay with the

1610
01:38:52,439 --> 01:38:55,119
Orientals for a while. Yet, we still have a lot

1611
01:38:55,279 --> 01:38:58,199
to do. Maybe just kind of start doing these joint

1612
01:38:58,239 --> 01:39:00,239
streams a little bit more frequently so that you can

1613
01:39:00,279 --> 01:39:02,800
get through more of the more of the parts. I

1614
01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:07,000
have a lot more articles planned to write on them

1615
01:39:07,239 --> 01:39:09,079
and then just start flashing out a little bit more.

1616
01:39:09,399 --> 01:39:11,479
Speaker 5: Oh, by the way, Kyle, people are asking him chat,

1617
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:14,600
what what is this? Can anybody go hear the Muslim

1618
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:17,399
discussion where Aigan couldn't answer basics.

1619
01:39:19,159 --> 01:39:27,039
Speaker 2: I don't want to really plug his channel. I don't mind. Like,

1620
01:39:27,079 --> 01:39:30,159
if you want to come on the OS discord, I

1621
01:39:30,279 --> 01:39:33,239
can link it, but I don't want to just plug

1622
01:39:33,399 --> 01:39:35,359
the Mohammedan's channel live.

1623
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:37,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't mind me yeah.

1624
01:39:37,279 --> 01:39:40,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, But it's it's really funny, like if you if

1625
01:39:40,239 --> 01:39:44,079
you listen to this, you will actually see like Aigan

1626
01:39:44,439 --> 01:39:49,880
has no idea what he's talking about. He gets demolished

1627
01:39:50,039 --> 01:39:53,680
by the Mohammedan and it's an he's an embarrassment, Like.

1628
01:39:53,760 --> 01:39:57,159
Speaker 5: Now, are you talking about your Orthodoxy Hata discord? Are

1629
01:39:57,199 --> 01:40:02,600
you talking about Okay, no, the or can you give

1630
01:40:02,720 --> 01:40:07,079
me a link in somewhere to this because I want

1631
01:40:07,079 --> 01:40:09,600
to put it in our discord for people to see,

1632
01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:13,119
but I don't want to promote the Muslim channel.

1633
01:40:13,880 --> 01:40:15,720
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay in that case, yeah, I'll just give

1634
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:17,199
it to you Jay. You put in the big server

1635
01:40:17,239 --> 01:40:19,479
and then everybody can just go and get it from

1636
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:22,199
the big server. But the other thing that I do

1637
01:40:22,479 --> 01:40:25,159
have that. I'm it's in the works. It's actually been

1638
01:40:25,199 --> 01:40:27,680
in the works for quite a while. It's going to

1639
01:40:27,720 --> 01:40:32,600
be something quite substantive, something that's taken quite a while

1640
01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:36,720
to flesh out. And that's the Jihad and geopolitics. If

1641
01:40:36,760 --> 01:40:39,159
you remember Ji ran that idea about it.

1642
01:40:39,399 --> 01:40:40,520
Speaker 4: We talked about a bunch of books.

1643
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:44,239
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, So there's the reason why it's taking a

1644
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:48,319
long time is because I'm I have to translate a

1645
01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:51,760
lot of the Arabic stuff myself. And this is going

1646
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:57,279
into a lot of like the Islamic effect, the jurisprudence

1647
01:40:57,479 --> 01:41:01,720
of jihad, and basically looking at all of the schools,

1648
01:41:02,079 --> 01:41:04,560
making all the comparisons, and then putting it into a

1649
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:08,920
geopolic political context. It's gonna talk about a lot of

1650
01:41:09,079 --> 01:41:12,399
like who created al Kaeda, Like I know the stuff

1651
01:41:12,439 --> 01:41:14,520
that you kind of go into j and so it's

1652
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:17,439
gonna be kind of like a fusion now of two

1653
01:41:17,720 --> 01:41:18,880
separate interests.

1654
01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:20,880
Speaker 4: Can I join you for that because I know a

1655
01:41:20,920 --> 01:41:22,960
lot about that you. Can I join you? Or is

1656
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:24,359
this something you're planning to do kind of just for

1657
01:41:24,479 --> 01:41:25,479
Orthodox Shota channel?

1658
01:41:26,119 --> 01:41:27,199
Speaker 2: Oh, you're gonna host it.

1659
01:41:27,920 --> 01:41:29,880
Speaker 4: We were doing this together. I don't remember what we

1660
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:30,920
said because we talked about that.

1661
01:41:31,119 --> 01:41:35,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, well to to to be fair though, like I

1662
01:41:35,159 --> 01:41:37,319
pitched that idea to you Jay like a year and

1663
01:41:37,359 --> 01:41:39,399
a half, two years ago. It's it's been a while,

1664
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:41,600
but the whole point was it was going to be

1665
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:45,399
like multi parts on your channel that is going to

1666
01:41:45,479 --> 01:41:47,760
cover it from a lot of a lot of angles

1667
01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:49,800
and just kind of go into a lot of.

1668
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:51,960
Speaker 5: You know, we got to turn that into a course

1669
01:41:52,199 --> 01:41:54,880
and sell the course like you know, have like half

1670
01:41:55,119 --> 01:41:57,680
I'm serious, like half half and half like I did

1671
01:41:57,760 --> 01:41:59,640
with Tragy and Hope, and then like we can you know,

1672
01:41:59,720 --> 01:42:02,000
actually he makes some money because nobody's super chats with

1673
01:42:02,079 --> 01:42:05,760
this kind of stuff because it's too it's too technical

1674
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:08,640
for the normy mind. Uh So, but if you turned

1675
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:10,800
into a course, then people feel like, oh, it's actually

1676
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:12,920
something that you know I can find value in.

1677
01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:17,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I'm open to that idea. It's there's a

1678
01:42:17,159 --> 01:42:19,159
lot of material. There's going to be a lot of

1679
01:42:19,359 --> 01:42:24,640
new content that is just doesn't exist in English. A

1680
01:42:24,680 --> 01:42:27,359
lot of people who talk about this stuff, Like I

1681
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:29,760
know Robert Spencer, he does a lot of work with

1682
01:42:30,199 --> 01:42:33,920
regards to jihad, but he's limited by language, so he's

1683
01:42:34,119 --> 01:42:38,479
only accessing stuff that he can see in English and

1684
01:42:38,600 --> 01:42:42,119
then whatever somebody might want to translate for him or whatever.

1685
01:42:42,439 --> 01:42:45,560
The Arabic. I'm working directly from the Arabic sources, from

1686
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:48,720
the picbooks. And it's got stuff in there that has

1687
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:49,600
not appeared.

1688
01:42:49,920 --> 01:42:51,199
Speaker 4: Oh I bet, Yeah, I bet.

1689
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:54,760
Speaker 2: And it's not just it's not so much just that

1690
01:42:55,359 --> 01:42:57,439
it's stuff of this that hasn't been said, but it's

1691
01:42:57,479 --> 01:43:03,079
the way that it's packaged. The Muslims themselves package it

1692
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:08,640
quite nicely that makes it unambiguous. And how it's going

1693
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:15,880
to really tie into the whole geopoliticization of Islam and

1694
01:43:16,279 --> 01:43:19,680
this idea of how you have the Mecan phase where

1695
01:43:20,239 --> 01:43:23,720
when the Muslims are not in the majority, when they're

1696
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:27,520
not superior, so then they have to basically kind of

1697
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:32,720
like infiltrate or whatever. But then when they do become

1698
01:43:32,800 --> 01:43:37,880
the majority or they've reached this momentum, now they actually

1699
01:43:38,039 --> 01:43:42,520
have a legal obligation right to fight. So it's not

1700
01:43:42,840 --> 01:43:46,359
like we're just going to peacefully coexist like Muslims in Britain.

1701
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:51,479
They're waiting to reach that critical mass, critical momentum to

1702
01:43:51,760 --> 01:43:56,600
actually establish a takeover and that is what is mandated

1703
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:59,159
by Islam. And it's very clear, like when you read

1704
01:43:59,199 --> 01:44:04,760
the thing, it's very when Muslims are able to fight

1705
01:44:05,239 --> 01:44:11,720
and conquer with Islam, they are supposed to break peace treaties.

1706
01:44:11,760 --> 01:44:14,560
For example, So you think that, okay, you've got these

1707
01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:17,079
Muslims on the one hand and non Muslims on the

1708
01:44:17,159 --> 01:44:20,000
other hand, these countries or regions, then they create a

1709
01:44:20,079 --> 01:44:26,239
peace treaty. Well, the only reason legally under Islam, the

1710
01:44:26,319 --> 01:44:29,520
only reason why a peace treaty exists is because the

1711
01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:33,880
Muslims are inferior. If they're superior, they're supposed to conquer.

1712
01:44:34,399 --> 01:44:39,199
But now if the treaty exists, and they now during

1713
01:44:39,359 --> 01:44:42,000
that peace treaty, whether it's five years, ten years, whatever,

1714
01:44:42,079 --> 01:44:44,960
however long it is, if they reach the point that

1715
01:44:45,159 --> 01:44:50,359
they can actually conquer you. Now, legally under Islam, Islamic

1716
01:44:50,520 --> 01:44:54,279
claus says they must break the peace treaty and conquer you.

1717
01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:58,800
And so when you can do that militarily, you have

1718
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:02,239
this idea called them Mecan phase. And that was Muhammad

1719
01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:07,199
during his time when he was in Mecca and inferior

1720
01:45:07,399 --> 01:45:12,119
in numbers and powers, he said, don't fight, do not fight.

1721
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:16,920
But then when he became the more powerful side from Medina,

1722
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:19,800
he comes and he conquers Mecca, and that's exactly what

1723
01:45:19,960 --> 01:45:25,159
you see geopolitically happening with Muslims being spread over into Europe.

1724
01:45:25,399 --> 01:45:27,119
But now that ties into some of the stuff that

1725
01:45:27,199 --> 01:45:29,840
you kind of get into. Jays A's like, well, what

1726
01:45:30,159 --> 01:45:33,880
are the ulterior motives of let's say, the CIA, or

1727
01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:39,079
what's his name? The Hungarian? What's his that he funds sorrows?

1728
01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:46,840
Why would Soros want to flood Muslims into Europe and

1729
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:52,560
basically make them the majority? Power dynamics, power politics and

1730
01:45:52,640 --> 01:45:55,840
stuff like that. Like that is all interconnected, and so

1731
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:58,920
you have from the one side, the higher ups on

1732
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:02,600
the geopolitical scene, and then you have the Muslims themselves

1733
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:07,920
being mobilized and using their religion to kind of coalesce

1734
01:46:08,000 --> 01:46:11,760
into the same kind of end end goal. But like

1735
01:46:11,880 --> 01:46:14,119
I said, that stuff is going to take a while

1736
01:46:14,279 --> 01:46:17,439
before we get to be able to actually unpack everything.

1737
01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:20,520
There's a lot that I need to do and my

1738
01:46:20,640 --> 01:46:24,479
time is split now with the family and sure other ations.

1739
01:46:25,319 --> 01:46:26,840
Speaker 5: Guys want to remind you too to head on over

1740
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:30,119
to chalk dot com c choq dot com. In the show,

1741
01:46:30,199 --> 01:46:33,640
description is the link for chalk and you can use

1742
01:46:33,640 --> 01:46:35,359
the promo co jif force to get forty percent off

1743
01:46:35,359 --> 01:46:37,920
all those great products that's J forty or you can

1744
01:46:38,039 --> 01:46:39,800
use the promo co J y four four l I

1745
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:42,279
f E J forty four Life to get forty four

1746
01:46:42,319 --> 01:46:44,800
percent off all those great products including the ton Catalegue,

1747
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:49,079
including the Seven Wonders, including the Ashwaganda and the pre

1748
01:46:49,239 --> 01:46:50,399
workout Chad Note.

1749
01:46:50,479 --> 01:46:51,960
Speaker 4: Also you can get access to my.

1750
01:46:52,159 --> 01:46:56,880
Speaker 5: Full philosophy course twelve lectures twenty four twenty six hours

1751
01:46:56,920 --> 01:47:01,079
worth of material, as well as guests shows doctor uh

1752
01:47:02,239 --> 01:47:06,560
An Anis, doctor Deacon, doctor Annis Soareum on epistemology, my

1753
01:47:06,680 --> 01:47:09,960
priest father Vladimir on aesthetics. That course goes to the

1754
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:11,920
whole history of Western philosophy, and the link is in

1755
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:13,960
the show description at the autonomy Agora marketplace.

1756
01:47:14,039 --> 01:47:16,319
Speaker 4: Be sure and follow Kai as a sub stack, which he's.

1757
01:47:16,159 --> 01:47:18,960
Speaker 5: Been updating regularly with a lot of excellent material reputing

1758
01:47:19,039 --> 01:47:22,079
Muslims and Monophysites. Also, be sure and follow the David

1759
01:47:22,119 --> 01:47:24,319
Irhan channel, which I'm gonna have to figure out exactly

1760
01:47:24,399 --> 01:47:26,079
where it is now because it used to pop up

1761
01:47:26,159 --> 01:47:28,880
under David Rhana doesn't now now it's.

1762
01:47:28,840 --> 01:47:29,119
Speaker 6: Just the.

1763
01:47:31,880 --> 01:47:33,520
Speaker 2: I as sure that I rambled on though, but I

1764
01:47:33,600 --> 01:47:36,359
do want David to tell us what he's going to

1765
01:47:36,399 --> 01:47:36,920
be working on.

1766
01:47:37,239 --> 01:47:38,600
Speaker 4: Oh I forgot him, Sorry, go ahead Vid.

1767
01:47:38,600 --> 01:47:43,239
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, Well, contrary to I guess, like my recent

1768
01:47:43,359 --> 01:47:48,199
upload schedule is, I'll just continue uploading pretty much.

1769
01:47:48,239 --> 01:47:50,720
Speaker 3: A lot of things that generally what I want to

1770
01:47:51,079 --> 01:47:53,800
I want to do, So there will.

1771
01:47:53,680 --> 01:47:57,119
Speaker 6: Be I guess I'll there will be like it's a

1772
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:00,159
it's a progress of like work in terms of like

1773
01:48:00,279 --> 01:48:04,479
the monophysite thing, so patients, you know, the patient is

1774
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:07,000
always always rewarded. That's what I said in the stream

1775
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:09,680
I did with Cleeve, so I'd like to repeat that

1776
01:48:10,039 --> 01:48:13,840
and just you know, videos about Orthodoxy in general is

1777
01:48:14,039 --> 01:48:16,079
pretty much the plan for the future. And more regular

1778
01:48:16,199 --> 01:48:21,079
videos maybe once per week, maybe once per two weeks,

1779
01:48:21,279 --> 01:48:22,079
so we'll see.

1780
01:48:22,119 --> 01:48:24,159
Speaker 3: We'll see in the future. But as I said, I'm

1781
01:48:24,159 --> 01:48:28,119
pretty sure I've gone back to regularly scheduled uploading.

1782
01:48:28,239 --> 01:48:29,960
Speaker 4: Awesome. Yeah, I'm glad to see it. Now.

1783
01:48:30,880 --> 01:48:32,399
Speaker 5: I want to remind you guys again, I'll be back

1784
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:36,000
very soon with Alex Soren will be talking about apologetics

1785
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:40,840
and his conversion Orthodoxy, so everybody be sure and follow

1786
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:41,319
our guys