WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Hey guys, it's Jack.

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<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to talk to you today about a

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<v Speaker 2>way that you can help support the podcast if you're

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<v Speaker 2>Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at

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<v Speaker 2>just five dollars a month, and when you sign up,

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<v Speaker 2>you get access to all of our episodes add free.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also

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<v Speaker 2>do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers, but this

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<v Speaker 2>is the biggest and best way that you can support

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<v Speaker 2>at patreon dot com.

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<v Speaker 3>Slash The Teamhouse, Special Operations, COBT Spionage, The Team House

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<v Speaker 3>with your host Jack Murphy David Park.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey everyone, welcome to episode three hundred and seventeen of

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<v Speaker 2>The Team House. I'm Jack here with Dave and we're

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<v Speaker 2>very pleased to have on the show tonight. Wade Ishi Moto.

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<v Speaker 2>He's the author of the in Taku Code. I just

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<v Speaker 2>finished reading this last night.

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<v Speaker 1>The headline here.

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<v Speaker 2>Is Delta Force's intelligence officer doing good in secret. Wade

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<v Speaker 2>served in Vietnam with Special Forces, went on to become

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<v Speaker 2>one of the original members of Delta Force, was a

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<v Speaker 2>part of Operation Eagle Claw, the Desert One incident, and

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<v Speaker 2>has gone on to do many other amazing things during

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<v Speaker 2>his career.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're excited to have you on the show. Wade.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for joining us tonight.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I thank you for having me on excepch an honor.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, really, And so let's start off at the beginning.

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<v Speaker 2>Wade, I want to hear about your upbringing and growing

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<v Speaker 2>up in Hawaii and sort of what your childhood was

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<v Speaker 2>like and how that began to sort of take you

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<v Speaker 2>towards the military.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I was very fortunate to be born and raised

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<v Speaker 5>in Hawaii, and in particular the kinds of neighborhoods I

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<v Speaker 5>grew up in. Because the neighborhoods I grew up in

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<v Speaker 5>were very diverse. We had people in many races. We

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<v Speaker 5>all got along with each other. But what I learned

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<v Speaker 5>was how to take care of others and how others

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<v Speaker 5>took care of me, and that made a big impression

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<v Speaker 5>on myself as far as the military was concerned.

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<v Speaker 4>During the Korean War, a gentleman.

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<v Speaker 5>By the name of Francis Takemoto, who had fought in

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<v Speaker 5>World War Two with the four to forty second Regimental

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<v Speaker 5>Combat Team. Was a lieutenant colonel in the Army National Guard,

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<v Speaker 5>and he commanded a battalion and at the end of

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<v Speaker 5>the valley I grew up in, it was a National

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<v Speaker 5>Guard shooting range and he would drop by and pick

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<v Speaker 5>me up when his battalion went up there for marshmanship training,

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<v Speaker 5>and I got introduced into initially firing an one car

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<v Speaker 5>being and then graduating to be able to fire an

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<v Speaker 5>m one garand rifle. So the military was really sort

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<v Speaker 5>of imbued in me even before that, being raised during.

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<v Speaker 4>World War Two.

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<v Speaker 5>But nonetheless that really made a difference in terms of

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<v Speaker 5>my wanting some day to be in the military.

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<v Speaker 2>You mentioned I think the term in your book is

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<v Speaker 2>it hanai extended family hanai.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>I was very interesting to read about that in your

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<v Speaker 2>book and all the people that were around you and

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<v Speaker 2>your family, and it sounds like, you know, kind of

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<v Speaker 2>an ideal childhood it was.

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<v Speaker 4>It was a great place to grow up.

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<v Speaker 5>It was semi rule when we moved into Koli Old Valley,

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<v Speaker 5>which is on the eastern side of Oahu, and now

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<v Speaker 5>it's all residential, but initially there was a truck farm

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<v Speaker 5>as you started proceeding up.

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<v Speaker 4>The valley on the main highway, and then.

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<v Speaker 5>A dairy, two chicken farms, another dairy, and a small

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<v Speaker 5>pig farm. It was very rural, and that set a

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<v Speaker 5>different kind of tone in terms of crowing out.

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<v Speaker 4>You learned how to work, you.

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<v Speaker 5>Learned how to work around animals, You learned how to

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<v Speaker 5>make a living for yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>And how did the idea of joining the army come

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<v Speaker 2>to you? As you know, as you've become a young

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<v Speaker 2>man eighteen nineteen years old, how does that come up

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<v Speaker 2>on your radar?

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<v Speaker 4>Well?

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<v Speaker 5>When I was in high school, my intentions actually were

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<v Speaker 5>to join the Air Force. After I graduated, along with

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<v Speaker 5>one of my buddies in high school, and my parents

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<v Speaker 5>pled with me to go on to college, and I

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<v Speaker 5>did so, somewhat reluctantly, but nonetheless I did.

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<v Speaker 4>And make a.

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<v Speaker 5>Long story short, after two years, a professor of mine,

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<v Speaker 5>Colin Kapra Johnson, confronted me one day and called me stupid,

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<v Speaker 5>and I was about ready to knock his block off,

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<v Speaker 5>but I said to myself, he's trying to tell me something.

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<v Speaker 5>In short, what he was trying to tell me was

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<v Speaker 5>that my grades were too low to get me into

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<v Speaker 5>graduate school, and that for me to succeed in international relations,

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<v Speaker 5>I needed to have a master's degree or hire. So

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<v Speaker 5>what that turned out to be was I was working

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<v Speaker 5>sixty to eighty hours a week trying to put myself

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<v Speaker 5>to school. It was a private school called glus and

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<v Speaker 5>Clark College in Portland, Oregon, and he said, you need

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<v Speaker 5>to transfer, and I did, and then I got too

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<v Speaker 5>smart for my own briches. I tried to invest my

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<v Speaker 5>summers savings on the ponies at Hollywood Park in Inglewood, California,

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<v Speaker 5>lost it all, shrugged my shoulders because I had learned

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<v Speaker 5>resilience as a young man, and said, well, it's time

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<v Speaker 5>to go in the military. I actually intended to go

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<v Speaker 5>into the Marine Corps, but when I went in and

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<v Speaker 5>found the Marine recruiting station, there was a sign out

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<v Speaker 5>to lunch and it was mid afternoon, and I said,

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<v Speaker 5>what the hell this is? So I said, okay, I'm

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<v Speaker 5>going to go in the Air Force again. As I

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<v Speaker 5>found the Air Force recruiter, they were co located with

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<v Speaker 5>the Army recruiter and on the second story of a building.

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<v Speaker 5>As I walked up the stairs, I felt this tamp

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<v Speaker 5>on the shoulder and it was an Army Master sergeant

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<v Speaker 5>and he said, well, the Air Force recruiter is busy,

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<v Speaker 5>come on in, sit down, relax.

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<v Speaker 4>He saw me a bill of goods.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was in the Army and your first assignment,

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<v Speaker 2>if I recall correctly, you were assigned to a military

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<v Speaker 2>police company. And I guess this would have been in

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen sixties. It sounded like a very wild time

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<v Speaker 2>to be in the United States Army.

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<v Speaker 1>For you as a young man, it.

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<v Speaker 5>Was sort of a crazy time because you know, we're

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<v Speaker 5>still getting over the Korean conflict, if you will, and

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<v Speaker 5>other things were happening with the Soviet Union in those

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<v Speaker 5>days and in particularly in Cuba, so there were all

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<v Speaker 5>kinds of different kinds of interesting things that were happening.

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<v Speaker 5>But you know, one of the most interesting things that

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<v Speaker 5>happened to me with that military police company is we

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<v Speaker 5>were guarding Joe Volachi, who was the first mafia figure

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<v Speaker 5>that was made to.

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<v Speaker 1>Like witness protection for Congress.

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<v Speaker 5>Not made too, he actually volunteered to testify before Congress,

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<v Speaker 5>so we were guarding him.

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<v Speaker 2>That's so he was like in the witness protection program

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<v Speaker 2>on your base.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, And we never knew it in the MP company

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<v Speaker 5>for about three months, but then two of our MPs

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<v Speaker 5>found out they went to one of the well known

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<v Speaker 5>publications at that time, the Saturday Evening Post, and spilled

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<v Speaker 5>the beans and the promo. Marshal on Fort Mollins went

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<v Speaker 5>sky order and he ordered us to build sandbag machine

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<v Speaker 5>gun emplacements, have patrols and emplacements around the stockade where

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<v Speaker 5>Volacchi was being held, and we went into a high

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<v Speaker 5>degree of preparedness.

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<v Speaker 4>If you will.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, I noticed from the book it seems

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<v Speaker 2>like you always had some other ambitions for what you

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<v Speaker 2>want to do with your army career, and the next

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<v Speaker 2>stop for you is to become a counterintelligence agent.

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<v Speaker 4>That's true, and it was a matter of Church Police Company.

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<v Speaker 5>Commander initially was a gentleman by the name of Walt Jenkins.

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<v Speaker 5>He had been a master sergeant during World War two

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<v Speaker 5>in the Korean War and then somehow got commissioned and

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<v Speaker 5>he was one of my mentors and took care of me.

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<v Speaker 4>He wanted me to go to OSS.

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<v Speaker 5>I refused to do so, so he came up with

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<v Speaker 5>this idea, along with another one of my mentors, Bill Fitzpatrick,

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<v Speaker 5>that I should go to and become an Army criminal

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<v Speaker 5>investigative agent.

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<v Speaker 4>And they found out that they thought that it was

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<v Speaker 4>all Greece.

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<v Speaker 5>They found out I was too young, but they also

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<v Speaker 5>found out that I could get into Army intelligence school,

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<v Speaker 5>and so they arranged for me to do so, and

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<v Speaker 5>off I went without understanding what the hell I was getting.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, tell us what you were getting into, because I

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<v Speaker 2>think your first stop was Korea.

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<v Speaker 1>As a CI guy.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, and that was the greatest because I got assigned

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<v Speaker 5>to the one ninety first Military Intelligence Detachment, which was

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<v Speaker 5>in support of the first Cavalry Division, and our commander

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<v Speaker 5>was a major by the name of Tom Hondo, and

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<v Speaker 5>Tom took a liking to me, but that also meant

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<v Speaker 5>that he pushed me very hard, and so he asked

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<v Speaker 5>me to be the covering counter intelligence agent for the

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<v Speaker 5>three battalions we had north of the Imjin River, and

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<v Speaker 5>those basically were sacrifice battalions because had the North Koreans invaded,

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<v Speaker 5>they would have been cut off and never been able

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<v Speaker 5>to get back across the Emgin River. But they were

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<v Speaker 5>at a high readiness stage in terms of future combat

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<v Speaker 5>and patrolled the military zone every day, and so it

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<v Speaker 5>was a great place for me to be and amongst

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<v Speaker 5>all the other things, Ondo made me the unit photographer,

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<v Speaker 5>So I was doing counter intelligence and intelligence photography of

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<v Speaker 5>different sorts, and so I was able to do every

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<v Speaker 5>facet that a counter intelligence agent does, to include recruiting,

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<v Speaker 5>recruiting sources.

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<v Speaker 4>So it was just a phenomenal experience.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought that was a really interesting part of your

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<v Speaker 2>book that you mentioned. During this period, the DMZ wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>quite as built up as it became in later years,

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<v Speaker 2>and so you guys were able to send agents north,

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<v Speaker 2>but the North was also sending infiltrators south.

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<v Speaker 4>Correct.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, Normally what the North Koreans would do is they

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<v Speaker 5>would come up with three man teams y three. It's

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<v Speaker 5>one of the known facts in terms of commonist organization

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<v Speaker 5>and insurgency that you have an odd number because then

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<v Speaker 5>you never have a split vote, if you will have

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<v Speaker 5>either unanimous or two against one.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay.

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<v Speaker 5>So in our case, what we were doing was basically

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<v Speaker 5>sending individuals across.

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<v Speaker 2>And I want to get into your service in Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 2>But as we begin to talk about Vietnam and how

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<v Speaker 2>you transition into special forces, I also need to ask

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<v Speaker 2>you what is the Intaku code?

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<v Speaker 1>If you can tell people what that is.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay in toku.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, the in toku code is something I picked up

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<v Speaker 5>in my martial arts experience, and there was a little

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<v Speaker 5>phrase written by a gentleman by the name of Koichi Tohe,

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<v Speaker 5>who was one of the ranking aikito masters in the world,

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<v Speaker 5>and so he created this thing called in toku doing

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<v Speaker 5>good in secret. And basically what it says is so evil,

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<v Speaker 5>reap evil, so good, and the harvest will be good.

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<v Speaker 5>So whatever you say can never be done away with.

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<v Speaker 5>But the whole intention is to do good for other people.

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<v Speaker 5>And that is something that I had lived with even

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<v Speaker 5>before I began my study of aikuto.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's something you took with you through your career,

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<v Speaker 2>as it's really evident in the book.

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<v Speaker 1>So talk to us about Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, initially, when I went into Vietnam, I went in essay.

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<v Speaker 4>It was an interesting experience because.

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<v Speaker 5>I came out of Hawaii and I was a staff

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<v Speaker 5>chergeant at that time, and I had six young soldiers

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<v Speaker 5>that had never seen combat or never been overseas other

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<v Speaker 5>than Hawaii in their lives before.

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<v Speaker 4>So I took care of them.

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<v Speaker 5>And when we landed at Tomson Nut there was nobody

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<v Speaker 5>to greet us, and it was on a president's birthday

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<v Speaker 5>in February of nineteen sixty eight, after ted after the

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<v Speaker 5>Tet offensive.

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<v Speaker 4>So the young men with.

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<v Speaker 5>Me were quite nervous, so I said, I gathered them

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<v Speaker 5>around and I said, okay, you guys stayed right here,

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<v Speaker 5>and they asked me, sorry, why right here?

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<v Speaker 4>And I pointed to a hole in the ceiling and I.

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<v Speaker 5>Said, that's probably where one twenty two millimeter rocket has

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<v Speaker 5>come to, and the chances of another rocket coming through

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<v Speaker 5>that same damn hole are about ten million to one.

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<v Speaker 4>So you guys stay here.

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<v Speaker 5>I'll find somebody to take care of us, and I

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<v Speaker 5>went off. I finally found somebody and they transported us

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<v Speaker 5>to Long Bin, which was the replacement depot for US

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<v Speaker 5>Army Vietnam. And I requested assignment to either the fifth

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<v Speaker 5>Special Forces Group or the twenty fifth Infant Infantry Division,

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<v Speaker 5>and instead they were going to assign me to the

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<v Speaker 5>US Army Vietnam GI Section Rear Echelon Organization right there

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<v Speaker 5>at Long Ben, and.

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<v Speaker 4>I protested, but they said you have to go.

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<v Speaker 5>So I had very good fortune because I walked in

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<v Speaker 5>and lo and behold, there was now a major who

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<v Speaker 5>I had known as a captain in Korea that was

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<v Speaker 5>in charge of the.

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<v Speaker 4>Operation that I was supposed to be working in.

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<v Speaker 5>And I pled with him and he looked at me

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<v Speaker 5>and he said, okay, I'll let you go provided you

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<v Speaker 5>do one thing. I said, what's that, sir? He said,

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<v Speaker 5>you spend the day with me talking about old times.

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<v Speaker 5>I said, you got so he lived up to his word.

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<v Speaker 5>He released me again. I went back to the replacement

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<v Speaker 5>depot and I said fifth SF Group for twenty fifth

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<v Speaker 5>Infantry Division. They put two and two togethers and he

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<v Speaker 5>sent me to the five twenty fifth and my brigade,

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<v Speaker 5>which I ended up in what they called the counter

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<v Speaker 5>intelligence Team the Train, which covered a five province area

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<v Speaker 5>doing offensive counter intelligence. So we were recruiting agents and

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<v Speaker 5>that was our stock in life and our mission.

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<v Speaker 1>That was the B fifty seven program.

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<v Speaker 5>No, this was second Battalion well CEI team the Train

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<v Speaker 5>part of the second Battalion five. So I made and

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<v Speaker 5>I had an agreement with the operations officer for the

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<v Speaker 5>battalion that if I gave him six hard months, he

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<v Speaker 5>would release me.

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<v Speaker 4>And I had the privilege of working with.

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<v Speaker 5>A very great warrant offerer by the name of Bill Miller,

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<v Speaker 5>and Bill and I were out ranked. He as a

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<v Speaker 5>warrant officer was outranked by other officers, and I, as

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<v Speaker 5>a staff chergeant was out ranked a couple other enceals.

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<v Speaker 5>But we were the ones that had the experience at

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00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:12.240
<v Speaker 5>human intelligence, and so the officer looked at us to

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00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.279
<v Speaker 5>be able to turn that whole thing around because it

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00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:19.640
<v Speaker 5>was candidly not quite productive before Bill Miller came in

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00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.759
<v Speaker 5>along with myself and took charge of it. So after

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00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:32.079
<v Speaker 5>six months, I went back to the battalion. The operations

291
00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:38.519
<v Speaker 5>officer had changed and they were to I don't want

292
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:44.119
<v Speaker 5>to swear, but less than honorable person in charge, and

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00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.960
<v Speaker 5>he literally called me crazy. He literally forced me to

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<v Speaker 5>go and get a psychiatric evaluation, which I did and

295
00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:55.519
<v Speaker 5>of course got a clean bill of health, with a

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<v Speaker 5>psychiatrist asking me, you need to tell that major to

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<v Speaker 5>come in here and get consoled himself. I said, I

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<v Speaker 5>can't do that, sir, you know, so I went back,

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<v Speaker 5>showed my clean bill of hill and the son of

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00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:13.920
<v Speaker 5>a bitch still would have released me. And again, you know,

301
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.599
<v Speaker 5>sometimes your life runs in luck. So I protested and

302
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.839
<v Speaker 5>filed a complaint. They sent me to the brigade headquarters

303
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<v Speaker 5>in Saigon, and there I was met by Colonel Mankin,

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<v Speaker 5>the deputy commander, and again he professed that he did

305
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:37.119
<v Speaker 5>not want to release me, regardless of the gentleman's agreement

306
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.759
<v Speaker 5>that I had with the previous battalion operations officer. And

307
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:44.599
<v Speaker 5>then he asked me one question, which was very fortunate,

308
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:47.400
<v Speaker 5>and he said, so who are you going to work

309
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.640
<v Speaker 5>for in the fifth Special Forces Group? And I said, well,

310
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<v Speaker 5>I'm not quite sure, but the one that arranged it

311
00:18:55.480 --> 00:19:00.319
<v Speaker 5>was Chief Warren Afthor Clarence Kawaki Goshi and Colonel and

312
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.680
<v Speaker 5>got very silent, and then he looked at me and

313
00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:12.480
<v Speaker 5>he said, you know, Chief Kawahigashi taught me everything I

314
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.799
<v Speaker 5>knew when I was a young lieutenant during the Korean War.

315
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:20.839
<v Speaker 5>He said, it's only because of him that I'm going

316
00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:24.240
<v Speaker 5>to release you. And I said to myself, Hell lujah,

317
00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:29.680
<v Speaker 5>you know lucked out again. So I was off to

318
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:35.839
<v Speaker 5>the fifth Special Forces Group, signed in in August in

319
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:42.160
<v Speaker 5>nineteen sixty eight, and stayed there until March of nineteen seventy,

320
00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:49.119
<v Speaker 5>and actually had intended to extend again, or had extended again,

321
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:53.079
<v Speaker 5>but my cousin, who was like a brother to me,

322
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:57.160
<v Speaker 5>was killed with the one zero first Airborne Division in Vietnam,

323
00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:03.039
<v Speaker 5>and my startant Major made me come back on emergency

324
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:10.720
<v Speaker 5>permanent changes station orders. That in short was you know,

325
00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:14.359
<v Speaker 5>the a little bit shy at three years that I

326
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:15.799
<v Speaker 5>spent in Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, before we move on, I got to ask you

328
00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:21.720
<v Speaker 2>if you can tell us about B fifty seven, what

329
00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.279
<v Speaker 2>you guys were doing there and leading into the Green

330
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<v Speaker 2>Beret case, which you know is pretty well known I

331
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:29.440
<v Speaker 2>think by a lot of people.

332
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:31.680
<v Speaker 4>Right.

333
00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:36.200
<v Speaker 5>So B five to seven was started circle nineteen sixty

334
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:41.920
<v Speaker 5>five nineteen sixty six, and its whole mission in life

335
00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:48.839
<v Speaker 5>was to gain intelligence on Cambodia, tactical intelligence. But the

336
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:52.039
<v Speaker 5>way we're going to do business was not to go

337
00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:59.319
<v Speaker 5>in ourselves, but to recruit indigenous personnel Cambodian's, Montagnor's, Vietnamese,

338
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.960
<v Speaker 5>whatever that would cross into Cambodia and collect the intelligence

339
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:11.359
<v Speaker 5>for us. So initially there was another portion of B

340
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:17.480
<v Speaker 5>five seven called Project Cherry, which recruited units of Cambodians

341
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:23.200
<v Speaker 5>to go into Campbodia, but that, for whatever reason, was

342
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:28.119
<v Speaker 5>disbanded and we stuck with trying to recruit indigenous agents.

343
00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.960
<v Speaker 5>We operated out of ten Special Forces camps strung out

344
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:36.000
<v Speaker 5>along the Cambodian border all the way from Hatien in

345
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.799
<v Speaker 5>southern four Core up to.

346
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:48.319
<v Speaker 4>Duco In or Douklap in three Cores in Vietnam.

347
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:55.559
<v Speaker 5>So normally we operated with three to four people on

348
00:21:55.680 --> 00:22:01.000
<v Speaker 5>a team. One would be a radio operator and one

349
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:05.640
<v Speaker 5>would be a special forces person trained in intelligence, and

350
00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.599
<v Speaker 5>the other probably would be a military intelligence person. And

351
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:11.880
<v Speaker 5>if we had another one, it could be either a

352
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:20.160
<v Speaker 5>special forces or an intelligence person. So we use interpret

353
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:25.519
<v Speaker 5>of principal agents which we recruited, and they became our

354
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:29.680
<v Speaker 5>way of finding indigenous sources and handling them.

355
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:34.319
<v Speaker 2>And it sounds like it was overall a really good program,

356
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.599
<v Speaker 2>but unfortunately it sounds like you also experienced where it

357
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:39.519
<v Speaker 2>started to come off the rails a little bit with

358
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Alvin Smith.

359
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:49.160
<v Speaker 5>Yes, in terms of success, what we were told later

360
00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:53.559
<v Speaker 5>was that on any given day, B five seven would

361
00:22:53.559 --> 00:23:00.319
<v Speaker 5>collect seventy five percent of a youthful tactical intelligence on

362
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:04.400
<v Speaker 5>Camp Odio, and on its worst day no less than.

363
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:05.200
<v Speaker 4>Twenty five percent.

364
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:09.920
<v Speaker 5>So we were quite a productive unit for being of

365
00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:16.160
<v Speaker 5>such small size. So we had an operation co located

366
00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:22.079
<v Speaker 5>at Mokua and Tantree in four Corps. Smith was supposed

367
00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:24.359
<v Speaker 5>to be a case officer at one of them in

368
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:31.160
<v Speaker 5>mokuah He, after six months had been totally unsuccessful in

369
00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:32.720
<v Speaker 5>terms of getting.

370
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.640
<v Speaker 4>Any agent operations started.

371
00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.359
<v Speaker 5>He had an interpreter personable agent, so we brought him

372
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<v Speaker 5>back to headquarters and we found out that this guy

373
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:50.119
<v Speaker 5>was lazy. He candidly was incompetent, and nonetheless he was

374
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:54.720
<v Speaker 5>looking for a way to justify his failure at mokuah

375
00:23:55.480 --> 00:24:01.920
<v Speaker 5>And one day we had received a Cassetta film thirty

376
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.519
<v Speaker 5>five millimeter film out of our station in Lockdon, which

377
00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:10.079
<v Speaker 5>is far away from mokwah Ok. It's located in three corps,

378
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:19.359
<v Speaker 5>and our photographer and myself developed the role of film

379
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:23.519
<v Speaker 5>and started printing the pictures out and Smith came by

380
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.640
<v Speaker 5>and started pointing at one and said, this is my man,

381
00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:27.920
<v Speaker 5>This is my man.

382
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:30.680
<v Speaker 4>And I said, what the hell are you talking about?

383
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:36.079
<v Speaker 5>And he pointed to an indigenous Vietnamese that was seated

384
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:41.079
<v Speaker 5>in and amongst a number of Vietnamese, and I said,

385
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:45.440
<v Speaker 5>what the hell are you talking about? So I pulled

386
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.880
<v Speaker 5>out his interpreter of principal agents, Dozia, and I saw

387
00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:56.519
<v Speaker 5>actually no likenings likeness of the person in the picture

388
00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:01.559
<v Speaker 5>and the picture of his interpreter principal agent. So Smith

389
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:05.559
<v Speaker 5>then went to the operations officer of B five to

390
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:10.559
<v Speaker 5>seven and the commander and tried to get them to

391
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:16.599
<v Speaker 5>act on it, and they refused to Why they refused to, actually,

392
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:20.240
<v Speaker 5>I do not know, because of the fact that they

393
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:23.960
<v Speaker 5>were gone within a month, they were close to rotating

394
00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:27.079
<v Speaker 5>back to the States and did so. The new commander

395
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.319
<v Speaker 5>came in with a new operations officer and they fell

396
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:37.799
<v Speaker 5>hookline and sinker for Smith's story, And there's a protracted

397
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:44.200
<v Speaker 5>number of events that happened after that. Basically, they lure

398
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:49.519
<v Speaker 5>the interpretive principal agent into Saigon, luring him telling him

399
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:52.240
<v Speaker 5>that they had a new job for him, and they

400
00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:57.240
<v Speaker 5>started interrogating him. They drugged him, they brought him to

401
00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:01.680
<v Speaker 5>the train, put him in a connic container in the

402
00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:06.799
<v Speaker 5>heat of July and Vietnam, and again started interrogating him.

403
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:11.039
<v Speaker 5>And twice they put him on a polygraph machine and

404
00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:16.359
<v Speaker 5>twice he showed deception in the cator. Well, I contend

405
00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:23.480
<v Speaker 5>who wouldn't under those kinds of circumstances. But nonetheless, the

406
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:27.559
<v Speaker 5>hierarchy in B five seven designs that they're going to

407
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:31.039
<v Speaker 5>do away with him, and initially they went to the

408
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:36.839
<v Speaker 5>CIA and tried to get the CIA to take Twin

409
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:42.240
<v Speaker 5>off of our hands, and basically the CIA said he's

410
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.920
<v Speaker 5>not our guy, it's your problem, and then they were correct,

411
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:52.960
<v Speaker 5>and so ostensibly our ops officer, Budge Williams asked them,

412
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:58.200
<v Speaker 5>well what would you do in our case? And ostensibly

413
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:03.880
<v Speaker 5>again the the base agent in the train at the

414
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:08.119
<v Speaker 5>train base where the CIA said well, we might consider

415
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:13.079
<v Speaker 5>doing away with him with extreme prejudice, but he never

416
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:19.880
<v Speaker 5>said they would, so that was in William's mind, and

417
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:25.079
<v Speaker 5>they concocted a way that they were going to get

418
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:29.279
<v Speaker 5>rid of Chin, which basically was to take him out

419
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:32.079
<v Speaker 5>in the train baying, shoot him in the head with

420
00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:36.799
<v Speaker 5>a suppressed weapon and then dump his body overboard with

421
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.640
<v Speaker 5>chains and to weigh his body down in a mail bag,

422
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:46.400
<v Speaker 5>and they did so. Smith was part of that, and

423
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:54.759
<v Speaker 5>then a month later he started being anxious, having anxiety

424
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:58.359
<v Speaker 5>and thinking that he was next on the list to

425
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:04.880
<v Speaker 5>be assassinated, which was total mallarchy, but nonetheless he turned

426
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 5>himself in to initially to the Army and then to

427
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:17.839
<v Speaker 5>the CIA, asking for asylum, and that opened up the case,

428
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.279
<v Speaker 5>and the case went on for several months and finally

429
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:32.640
<v Speaker 5>Coach Martiall charges were going to be placed against eight individuals,

430
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:37.079
<v Speaker 5>to include Colonel Barbara, who commanded the fifth Special Forces Group.

431
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:40.079
<v Speaker 4>In October.

432
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:46.160
<v Speaker 5>Thanks to President Nixon and the intercession of the Army

433
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:52.880
<v Speaker 5>Secretary Stanley resor General Abrams in Vietnam was shold to

434
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:59.480
<v Speaker 5>drop the charges, and they were dropped and the eight

435
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:04.240
<v Speaker 5>people were freed. They were also free to continue their

436
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:08.920
<v Speaker 5>military careers. The only one that didn't was Colonel Role

437
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:13.759
<v Speaker 5>because ostensibly what they asked him, where do you want

438
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:16.319
<v Speaker 5>to be a signed He said the fifth Special Forces

439
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:21.039
<v Speaker 5>Group and they, you know, the power to be said colonel,

440
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:21.759
<v Speaker 5>we can't do that.

441
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:22.319
<v Speaker 4>You know that.

442
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:27.519
<v Speaker 5>So he said, I retire. But everybody else did not

443
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:29.640
<v Speaker 5>have to leave the military story.

444
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.599
<v Speaker 2>It sounded like there were also some over zealous prosecutors

445
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:36.960
<v Speaker 2>that made a lot of mistakes and overstepped, and you

446
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.960
<v Speaker 2>know that they tried to coerce and intimidate you as well.

447
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:46.920
<v Speaker 4>It wasn't so well. What I was told by.

448
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:55.240
<v Speaker 5>An individual in the Judge Advocate General's office at in

449
00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:02.759
<v Speaker 5>Long Ben was that beware of the chief Defense attorney,

450
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:07.799
<v Speaker 5>because he's working for the prosecution. Everything you tell him,

451
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:12.720
<v Speaker 5>he's going to tell the prosecution, I said, I got you, okay.

452
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:14.880
<v Speaker 4>So I asked this.

453
00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:21.880
<v Speaker 5>Young gentleman who was a specialist Worths class from New York.

454
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:26.920
<v Speaker 5>He was a lawyer, but decided to get drafted rather

455
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.039
<v Speaker 5>than serve as a lawyer in the military because he

456
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:33.680
<v Speaker 5>knew he would be assigned as a legal clerk and

457
00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:39.119
<v Speaker 5>would not have a long term payback to the military.

458
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:42.799
<v Speaker 5>So after two years you could get out. So I

459
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:48.359
<v Speaker 5>wrote a message to him, tell him how the two

460
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:54.160
<v Speaker 5>Criminal Investigation Division BOSOS had botched the investigation by making threats,

461
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:59.359
<v Speaker 5>false promises and tried to use coercion. And he got

462
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:03.200
<v Speaker 5>that to the defense attorneys. And so when I testified,

463
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:12.880
<v Speaker 5>they confronted the presiding officer in the Article fifteen investigation

464
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:18.319
<v Speaker 5>with that Shapman. And they also rate the CID guy

465
00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:23.599
<v Speaker 5>over the cold and concerning his methodology.

466
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:28.599
<v Speaker 2>If you will, so, I mean, quite an adventure through

467
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:32.279
<v Speaker 2>Vietnam and your time there, and you know the next

468
00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:35.240
<v Speaker 2>place you were at Special Action Force Asia over in

469
00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:38.799
<v Speaker 2>Okinawa and bouncing around some other places in the region.

470
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:41.480
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to get you to tell us the story

471
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.079
<v Speaker 2>about how you met your wife in Korea.

472
00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:51.519
<v Speaker 5>Well, out of the first Special Forces group we went

473
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:56.839
<v Speaker 5>up on an annual exercise called Full Eagle, and my

474
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.880
<v Speaker 5>shard major was a good friend by the name of

475
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:01.960
<v Speaker 5>Corned Beef Holiamau.

476
00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:04.480
<v Speaker 4>He had a colorful nickname.

477
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:09.480
<v Speaker 5>So Julian Hollimam knew that I had been in Korea before,

478
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:12.359
<v Speaker 5>and he asked me, He said, do you know anybody

479
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:16.960
<v Speaker 5>that can help us out in terms of some services

480
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.200
<v Speaker 5>that we need? And I said yeah, And just by chance,

481
00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:24.519
<v Speaker 5>a gentleman by the name of Kwan that I had

482
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:30.440
<v Speaker 5>known all the way back in nineteen sixty four was

483
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:36.039
<v Speaker 5>the area exchange manager out of Oaksan Airbase. So I

484
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:39.680
<v Speaker 5>went to see Kwan and I said, okay, con can

485
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:40.279
<v Speaker 5>you help us?

486
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:41.559
<v Speaker 4>He said, well, what do you need?

487
00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:45.839
<v Speaker 5>He said, well, my start major wants a Roachi coach you,

488
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:49.680
<v Speaker 5>which is a rolling canteen if you will, that brings

489
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:56.920
<v Speaker 5>you little goodies to eat as well as toiletrees to sell.

490
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:00.279
<v Speaker 4>He wants that to come up at least once day.

491
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:02.039
<v Speaker 4>And he needs.

492
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:07.319
<v Speaker 5>A laundry because wait, we need to get our uniforms clean.

493
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:10.319
<v Speaker 5>He said okay, And so I joke with Kwanna and

494
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:13.079
<v Speaker 5>I said, whatever you do, send a good looking woman

495
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:17.559
<v Speaker 5>with you. So lo and behold, my wife shows up

496
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:21.279
<v Speaker 5>winning the laundry collection point.

497
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:23.279
<v Speaker 4>And that's how we met.

498
00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:27.839
<v Speaker 5>And what really made me take a liking to her

499
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:32.519
<v Speaker 5>is one the evening I walked in to where she

500
00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:36.000
<v Speaker 5>was working and there were another number of Korean Special

501
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.839
<v Speaker 5>Forces soldiers around her giving her a hard time, and

502
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.200
<v Speaker 5>she had a couple of hot tea in her in

503
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:47.160
<v Speaker 5>her hand and she immediately threw it at them, and

504
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:48.680
<v Speaker 5>I said, that's my kind of gal.

505
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:55.480
<v Speaker 2>And you guys, you know she she joined this adventure

506
00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:59.319
<v Speaker 2>you were on through the rest of your military.

507
00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:05.680
<v Speaker 4>Career, absolutely and has been my pillar for over fifty

508
00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:06.839
<v Speaker 4>two years of marriage.

509
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Amazing.

510
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:11.840
<v Speaker 2>So the next place you were at, assigned to the

511
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.400
<v Speaker 2>Special Warfare Center, start to tell us a little bit

512
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:19.000
<v Speaker 2>about that. As I recalled you had you held both

513
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.599
<v Speaker 2>enlisted and officer ranks at the same time active in reserve.

514
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:25.280
<v Speaker 2>Tell us a little bit about that period of your

515
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:28.039
<v Speaker 2>life and meeting Charlie beckwith and how that came onto

516
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:28.719
<v Speaker 2>your radar.

517
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:34.559
<v Speaker 5>Okay, Well, I came back out of Okinawa not knowing

518
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:38.360
<v Speaker 5>if I could run or jump out of airplanes again,

519
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:42.960
<v Speaker 5>as I was in a camp for six months after civility,

520
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:47.920
<v Speaker 5>breaking my leg on a parachute jump on Okinawa. So

521
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:53.360
<v Speaker 5>I was assigned to the Special Forces School and the

522
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:57.039
<v Speaker 5>start major was named Henry's Gerniac. And I went to

523
00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:00.440
<v Speaker 5>Zerniac and I said, turn Major, I don't no if

524
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:02.440
<v Speaker 5>I can jump. I don't know if I can run again.

525
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:04.960
<v Speaker 5>I am certainly going to give it everything I have.

526
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:08.320
<v Speaker 5>And he looked at me. He said, dumbass. I didn't

527
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:11.400
<v Speaker 5>hire you for your looks. I hired you for your brains.

528
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 5>You assigned to the Opson Intel Committee. Yes, Major, So

529
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:23.719
<v Speaker 5>I struggled to get back into shape. I was selected

530
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:28.159
<v Speaker 5>as a Special Forces School Instructor.

531
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:29.639
<v Speaker 4>Of the Year for nineteen seventy four.

532
00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:36.440
<v Speaker 5>And there's another long story, but I had been behind

533
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:40.599
<v Speaker 5>on promotions. And the reason why was the Army went

534
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:45.639
<v Speaker 5>to centralized records and in my centralized records for four

535
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:50.000
<v Speaker 5>pieces of paper with the most condemning one being my

536
00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:56.719
<v Speaker 5>selection for the first Advanced Noncommissioned Officer Educational System class

537
00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:01.639
<v Speaker 5>and no completion certificate. Well I didn't even know I

538
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:05.519
<v Speaker 5>had been selected because I was on Okinawa. Well, anyway,

539
00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:08.519
<v Speaker 5>that was quickly rectified. I was quickly picked up to

540
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:12.239
<v Speaker 5>make Master Chargeant and then I found out that there

541
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:18.639
<v Speaker 5>were no slots available in Special Forces. For another, a

542
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:22.880
<v Speaker 5>new master chargeant. Special Forces had declined from a high

543
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.880
<v Speaker 5>of around twelve thousand in Vietnam to less than four

544
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:31.639
<v Speaker 5>thousand at that point in time in nineteen seventy five,

545
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:40.159
<v Speaker 5>so there was no slots available. And two things happened.

546
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:44.480
<v Speaker 5>They told me you might as well caut on retiring

547
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.559
<v Speaker 5>out of the assignment you're going to, which was in

548
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.920
<v Speaker 5>a reserve officer training course assignment at the University of

549
00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:54.679
<v Speaker 5>Santa Clara, because the guy before you spent six years there.

550
00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:57.039
<v Speaker 4>And I said wow.

551
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:01.000
<v Speaker 5>So I went around Fort Burg at the time to

552
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:05.079
<v Speaker 5>say goodbye to some of my old friends, to include

553
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:10.239
<v Speaker 5>our Major Arab Zaki. And Zaki had been and took

554
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:14.000
<v Speaker 5>a direct commission in Vietnam at the same time. I

555
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:17.480
<v Speaker 5>had been offered a direct commission and I had refused.

556
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:22.000
<v Speaker 5>He took it, and so I went to say goodbye

557
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:25.840
<v Speaker 5>to Arab and then I teached him and I said, so,

558
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:30.360
<v Speaker 5>why did you lower yourself to become an officer?

559
00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:33.320
<v Speaker 4>And he looked at me and he said seven hundred.

560
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.760
<v Speaker 4>And I said, what the hell are you talking about?

561
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:37.440
<v Speaker 4>Seven hundred?

562
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:41.960
<v Speaker 5>He said, dumbassd seven hundred dollars dollars a month I said,

563
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:46.920
<v Speaker 5>you was our major seven hundred dollars a month.

564
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:51.239
<v Speaker 4>I said, well, I'm a bitch. I guess I should

565
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:51.719
<v Speaker 4>have done it.

566
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:56.559
<v Speaker 5>He said, well, look here, there's a Reserve Commission board

567
00:37:56.599 --> 00:38:01.559
<v Speaker 5>meeting right now. If you get your paper worked together tonight,

568
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.239
<v Speaker 5>I will get you before the board in the morning.

569
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.719
<v Speaker 4>But you got to get your paperwork together tonight. And

570
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:10.599
<v Speaker 4>I did. It.

571
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.599
<v Speaker 5>Took quite a lot of effort, but you know, my

572
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.559
<v Speaker 5>typing and writing skills came to the forefront. So I

573
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:21.760
<v Speaker 5>was ready passed the board with flying colors and received

574
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:26.519
<v Speaker 5>a reserve commission as a captain in infantry. There was

575
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:32.119
<v Speaker 5>no Special Forces branch at that time, and so off

576
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:40.079
<v Speaker 5>I went on the ROTC assignment. And later in nineteen

577
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:45.920
<v Speaker 5>seventy seven, when Delta was about to be started, I

578
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.039
<v Speaker 5>was selected to go to the Army Sergeant Major Academy,

579
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:55.599
<v Speaker 5>which I was. I called it extortion for a whole

580
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:57.880
<v Speaker 5>bunch of reasons, and I did not want to go,

581
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:02.000
<v Speaker 5>but nonetheless I was forced to go. The day I

582
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:06.760
<v Speaker 5>reported there, my old boss on the Opson Intel Committee

583
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:12.519
<v Speaker 5>for a foreman said call beck with and I said why.

584
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.280
<v Speaker 5>He said, because I told you to him. He said, okay, Forrest.

585
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:19.840
<v Speaker 5>I called beck With, and he, in typical Beckward fashion,

586
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.480
<v Speaker 5>said asked.

587
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:24.519
<v Speaker 4>Me, are you ready, boy? And I said, sure, I

588
00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:27.599
<v Speaker 4>don't know what you're talking about. You goddamn know when

589
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:28.719
<v Speaker 4>I'm talking about.

590
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:33.320
<v Speaker 5>You the intel You long story short, when I had

591
00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:38.239
<v Speaker 5>left the SF School on that ROTC assignment, I had

592
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:44.960
<v Speaker 5>prepared a three page letter for Colonel Beckwith pointing out

593
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:51.960
<v Speaker 5>some ways that the Opton Intel Committee could improve without

594
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.440
<v Speaker 5>bad mouthing anybody, but you know, coming up with some

595
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:59.280
<v Speaker 5>plans and rationale.

596
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:00.639
<v Speaker 4>In terms of changing around.

597
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:04.800
<v Speaker 5>And he took that too hard, and so I became

598
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:08.679
<v Speaker 5>his first choice to be the intelligence toward major for

599
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:10.320
<v Speaker 5>the Delta Force.

600
00:40:12.679 --> 00:40:16.639
<v Speaker 2>Those early days, I mean were very interesting both there

601
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:19.880
<v Speaker 2>are a lot of interesting people in the unit, but

602
00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:22.760
<v Speaker 2>also interesting things happening as we're trying to develop this

603
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.840
<v Speaker 2>counter terrorism capability. Do you want to tell us a

604
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.400
<v Speaker 2>little bit about, like who were the people in this unit,

605
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:31.480
<v Speaker 2>how did your training begin, what it was like standing

606
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:33.199
<v Speaker 2>up a unit from scratch essentially?

607
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:40.440
<v Speaker 5>Well, the good thing, the longest story is that you

608
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:44.960
<v Speaker 5>know Beckworth, when he relinquished command of the Special Forces

609
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:50.960
<v Speaker 5>School in late nineteen seventy six, was given authorization by

610
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:55.159
<v Speaker 5>then Major General Bob Kingston, who commended the JFK Center

611
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.880
<v Speaker 5>and in fact was the only general officer in all

612
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:04.119
<v Speaker 5>of what they call special operations today. But General Kingston

613
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:09.280
<v Speaker 5>authorized Beckwith to do a study to create a small

614
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:16.119
<v Speaker 5>British Special Air Service type organization within the US Special Forces,

615
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:22.039
<v Speaker 5>and so Beckwith was doing that. Then a couple of

616
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.639
<v Speaker 5>things happened. This was late seventy six when he was

617
00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:30.000
<v Speaker 5>given that authorization, so he's working on this study. And

618
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:35.480
<v Speaker 5>then in March of nineteen seventy seven, so called Hanafi

619
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:41.039
<v Speaker 5>Muslim incident happened in Washington, d C. Where the Hanafia Muslims,

620
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:44.199
<v Speaker 5>a splinter group with the Nation of Islam, took over

621
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:48.000
<v Speaker 5>three buildings in downtown Wall, Washington, d C. And the

622
00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:52.880
<v Speaker 5>federal government was paralyzed in a Washington Metropolitan Police Department

623
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:58.679
<v Speaker 5>had no capability to do surgical hostage rescue, so a

624
00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:01.840
<v Speaker 5>call was made to General Kingston and asked if he

625
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:04.920
<v Speaker 5>could send his special forces up there to resolve the incident.

626
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:10.119
<v Speaker 5>And Kingston very honestly answered, only if you want the

627
00:42:10.119 --> 00:42:13.760
<v Speaker 5>lives of all the hostages to be at risk, because

628
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:18.920
<v Speaker 5>he knew special forces and the US Army did not

629
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:25.440
<v Speaker 5>have a surgical hostage rescue capability. So but at that

630
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:28.960
<v Speaker 5>point Kingston then turned to back with and said change

631
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:33.840
<v Speaker 5>your focus and start working on counter terrorism.

632
00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:33.679
<v Speaker 4>And Beckwi did.

633
00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:40.760
<v Speaker 5>He formed four others around him, started Major William Country Crimes,

634
00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:55.119
<v Speaker 5>then Major Lewis Burris and Marion lieuten Colonel Kurt Hurst

635
00:42:56.360 --> 00:43:01.679
<v Speaker 5>and Chuck Odrizi who was a Captain of AJA at

636
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:04.719
<v Speaker 5>that time, and they formed a study group and they

637
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:08.679
<v Speaker 5>started putting together how they were going to start Delta,

638
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:11.360
<v Speaker 5>what kind of people they needed, how are they're going

639
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:14.840
<v Speaker 5>to do recruiting, how they were going to do operations,

640
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.440
<v Speaker 5>how they were going to do assessment and selection, because

641
00:43:18.440 --> 00:43:24.559
<v Speaker 5>that was something Charlie Beckert adamantly insisted upon. So it

642
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:29.960
<v Speaker 5>was those five individuals that are most important in the

643
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:35.760
<v Speaker 5>formation of the Delta Force. And what happened then is

644
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:40.039
<v Speaker 5>in October of seventy seven, bequd happened to be in

645
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:45.679
<v Speaker 5>a Pentagon when Green shoots group of nine the German

646
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:51.840
<v Speaker 5>counter Terrorism Force took back to hijacked airliner in Mogadishu, Somalia,

647
00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:56.480
<v Speaker 5>with the help of the British Special Air Service, and

648
00:43:56.599 --> 00:44:00.840
<v Speaker 5>one of the questions that was floating around in the

649
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.000
<v Speaker 5>Pentagon and National Command authority was what is a flash bang?

650
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:10.320
<v Speaker 5>And the only guy in the building in the Pentagon

651
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:13.400
<v Speaker 5>that knew what a flash bank was was Charlie Beckworth.

652
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:19.840
<v Speaker 5>And that made a name not only for Charlie but

653
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:23.960
<v Speaker 5>for the organization that he was working on funding founding.

654
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:30.079
<v Speaker 5>So orders were cut and those orders were somewhere around

655
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:34.480
<v Speaker 5>nineteen November nineteen seventy seven to actually create the unit.

656
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.719
<v Speaker 5>But that unit was going to be created even before

657
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:43.159
<v Speaker 5>that because it had the support of the Army Deputy

658
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:47.679
<v Speaker 5>Chief of Staff or operations plans. But the name of

659
00:44:48.719 --> 00:44:52.320
<v Speaker 5>then Lieutenant General Edward Meyer that knew he was going

660
00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:55.639
<v Speaker 5>to be the next Army chief of Staff and did.

661
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:02.280
<v Speaker 2>And some of the interesting guys thought, I believe Charlie's

662
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:04.000
<v Speaker 2>first deputy Dick Potter.

663
00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:13.559
<v Speaker 5>Yes, absolutely a superb person, officer, planner and the patriot.

664
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:16.719
<v Speaker 1>I've spoken to him on the phone before. He is

665
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:17.559
<v Speaker 1>a great guy.

666
00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:20.639
<v Speaker 2>I did not know that he socked someone in the

667
00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Cross Creek mall Invil.

668
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:33.760
<v Speaker 5>Dick Potter played football at at college in Michigan that

669
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:39.960
<v Speaker 5>no longer has a football program. But he's a character

670
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:46.880
<v Speaker 5>and hard hardest woodpecker lips, as they say in one

671
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:48.119
<v Speaker 5>of my best friends in life.

672
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Potter went on to command Tense Special Forces Group, of course,

673
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:55.719
<v Speaker 2>and another interesting character Herman Adler.

674
00:45:57.679 --> 00:45:59.119
<v Speaker 4>Oh, Herman the German.

675
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:04.320
<v Speaker 5>Yes, yeah, Herman unfortunately passed away a few years ago,

676
00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:06.559
<v Speaker 5>but you know, he.

677
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:09.440
<v Speaker 4>Emigrated from Germany.

678
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:14.320
<v Speaker 5>He had a Volkswagen koga Wagen, and so you know,

679
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.599
<v Speaker 5>we used to teach him about being a crowd and

680
00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:20.639
<v Speaker 5>still wanting to be in the Nazi Army. He was

681
00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:23.760
<v Speaker 5>originally from Munich and still had family there.

682
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:28.199
<v Speaker 4>But Herman was really another.

683
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:32.320
<v Speaker 5>You know, most of our people initially were very acquired,

684
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:36.960
<v Speaker 5>very humble, wanting to do a job, not seeking to

685
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:41.639
<v Speaker 5>make a name for themselves, but to do something interesting

686
00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:47.960
<v Speaker 5>for the country. And Herm Dick Potter. I can name

687
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:51.800
<v Speaker 5>tons of others who were in the same boat.

688
00:46:53.559 --> 00:46:55.679
<v Speaker 2>Another thing I'd like to ask you about, because you

689
00:46:55.719 --> 00:46:59.679
<v Speaker 2>spend some time on this in your book. There was

690
00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:04.320
<v Speaker 2>this question at the time can Delta operate domestically in

691
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.440
<v Speaker 2>the United States? And there was some back and forth

692
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.000
<v Speaker 2>about this topic. I just wonder if you could tell

693
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:12.599
<v Speaker 2>us a little bit about that conversation and how that

694
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:13.679
<v Speaker 2>evolved over time.

695
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:22.079
<v Speaker 5>Yes, well, there were people, yeah, I.

696
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:27.559
<v Speaker 4>To be honest, I guess the people were split on

697
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:31.159
<v Speaker 4>whether we should have a domestic mission or no game.

698
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:35.360
<v Speaker 5>At the time, it was overseas terrorism that was dramming

699
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:43.199
<v Speaker 5>of the wall and you can't do everything. And in

700
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:47.480
<v Speaker 5>order to do things domestically, what you needed was to

701
00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:55.639
<v Speaker 5>have the Posse Comitatis Act waived or the Insurgency Act

702
00:47:55.920 --> 00:48:00.800
<v Speaker 5>implemented by the President of the United States. That was

703
00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:07.920
<v Speaker 5>going to be very problematic, and you know, we simply well,

704
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:13.320
<v Speaker 5>we needed to concentrate our efforts overseas, and eventually that

705
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:18.679
<v Speaker 5>planned out. We had worked very closely with the FBI

706
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:23.960
<v Speaker 5>from day one, even before day one when Beckwett had

707
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:29.079
<v Speaker 5>the Special Forces School. Okay, so, but they could not

708
00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:34.440
<v Speaker 5>get that warrewithal to start what it's called today the

709
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:38.440
<v Speaker 5>Hostage Rescue Team and their Critical Incident Response Group.

710
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:43.119
<v Speaker 4>It took them some years to gain that authority.

711
00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:48.519
<v Speaker 5>And there's another story about how that happened. But one

712
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:55.639
<v Speaker 5>of the most two most influential ones were John Otto,

713
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.559
<v Speaker 5>who had been the Special Agent in charge in Chicago

714
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:04.639
<v Speaker 5>and in a year encountered two acts of Hubble Croatian

715
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:11.199
<v Speaker 5>terrorism in Chicago and later became the executive Assistant Director

716
00:49:11.239 --> 00:49:11.920
<v Speaker 5>of the FBI.

717
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.280
<v Speaker 4>And the other one was Jim.

718
00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:20.880
<v Speaker 5>Mackenzie, who was the assistant director for Chronicle and the

719
00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:24.679
<v Speaker 5>training side of the FBI, and he later would become

720
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.880
<v Speaker 5>a special Agent in charge of a major field office.

721
00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:33.039
<v Speaker 5>So those two were very influential in terms of bringing

722
00:49:33.079 --> 00:49:39.760
<v Speaker 5>the FBI around to understanding that they needed a hostage

723
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:43.800
<v Speaker 5>rescue team and dedicated capability.

724
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:47.840
<v Speaker 2>I will just point out for our viewers out there,

725
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:51.880
<v Speaker 2>we've had Danny Colson on the show twice. That's right,

726
00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:53.719
<v Speaker 2>if you guys want to go back and look at that,

727
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:57.119
<v Speaker 2>and also Mike Vining who was one of the original

728
00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:00.559
<v Speaker 2>Delta members as well, so you could find those preview episodes.

729
00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:03.199
<v Speaker 6>Danny Colson was one of the guys responsible standing up

730
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:04.400
<v Speaker 6>the hostage rescue team.

731
00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:06.559
<v Speaker 1>The story is fantastic, Wade, You.

732
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:10.079
<v Speaker 2>Right about Danny doing an exchange with Delta at one point.

733
00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:13.679
<v Speaker 4>Yes, yeah, well you know, Danny.

734
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:18.960
<v Speaker 5>Came in as I afterthought, I'm being blunt about it, okay,

735
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:26.159
<v Speaker 5>because the movement within Division six and Jim McKenzie was

736
00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:33.320
<v Speaker 5>led by something called SORE his Special Operations. It was

737
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:35.800
<v Speaker 5>a unit anyway, and I forget what it was, but

738
00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:40.239
<v Speaker 5>they had guys like John Simioni who became the first tipaty,

739
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:44.719
<v Speaker 5>but Jim was John was a former Saint Louis, comp

740
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:49.320
<v Speaker 5>rough and rugged guy and not you know, suitable too

741
00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:55.800
<v Speaker 5>candidly command yah and Colton was. Colson was an up

742
00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:59.800
<v Speaker 5>and comer in the FBI, and so he was picked

743
00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:04.079
<v Speaker 5>particularly to leave the hostage Rescue team.

744
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Perfectly.

745
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:09.719
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, no, I'm sorry, go ahead, I interrupted you please

746
00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:10.079
<v Speaker 6>go ahead.

747
00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:15.440
<v Speaker 5>Initially, what the FBI wanted to do was to do

748
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:20.679
<v Speaker 5>sort of a walk before you run things, So they

749
00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:23.679
<v Speaker 5>sent five guys down to Delta to spend a couple

750
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:27.719
<v Speaker 5>of months with us, led by Danny Colson. Sammy Only

751
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:32.360
<v Speaker 5>was another Jamie Ashton who was their major briefer.

752
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:37.320
<v Speaker 4>Preacher for years, was another Tom.

753
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:43.440
<v Speaker 5>Nicoletty, and then who never became part of the hostage

754
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:48.719
<v Speaker 5>rescue team, but then Jeff mcwaymeyer. And Jeff had been

755
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:54.199
<v Speaker 5>the SWAT team leader for the Washington Field office and

756
00:51:54.320 --> 00:52:00.440
<v Speaker 5>had been the league on a mutual exercise I said,

757
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:07.079
<v Speaker 5>we did called Operation Masquerade that proved the capability of

758
00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:11.039
<v Speaker 5>Delta and the need for the FBI to do something

759
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:15.480
<v Speaker 5>different other than their regional call outs. And so those

760
00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:21.480
<v Speaker 5>five people were to form the cadre, if you will,

761
00:52:21.639 --> 00:52:26.239
<v Speaker 5>for the HRT and did with the exception of Tom Nicoletty.

762
00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:32.079
<v Speaker 2>So while all this is going on, Delta is getting

763
00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:35.119
<v Speaker 2>stood up and validated. And this was something interesting that

764
00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:38.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know. The first mission that came across their

765
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:43.280
<v Speaker 2>desk was the kidnapping of Ambassador Dubs in Afghanistan, and

766
00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:46.719
<v Speaker 2>then like a day later the embassy in Taran get seized.

767
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Tell us what that timeframe was like.

768
00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:52.559
<v Speaker 4>Well, it wasn't quite that close, but.

769
00:52:54.360 --> 00:53:00.719
<v Speaker 5>You know, we were alerted to the kidnapping of Ambassador

770
00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:05.880
<v Speaker 5>Dubson in Afghanistan, and we started scrambling trying to get

771
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:10.679
<v Speaker 5>ourselves out of Fort Bragg and before we could even

772
00:53:10.719 --> 00:53:14.159
<v Speaker 5>get off the ground, Dubs hid. Ambassador Doubbs had been

773
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:18.199
<v Speaker 5>killed in Afghanistan, so that canceled that mission a game.

774
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:27.840
<v Speaker 5>In February of nineteen seventy nine, you know, the US

775
00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:30.840
<v Speaker 5>Embassy in Tehran was taken over for the first time.

776
00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:35.760
<v Speaker 5>The Ayatola interceded and had it immediately turned back to

777
00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:42.000
<v Speaker 5>the US government. But the only sticky wicket being they

778
00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:46.440
<v Speaker 5>kept one Marine security guard, Kim Kraus, hostage for about

779
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:51.320
<v Speaker 5>a week and they finally released him. But nonetheless, we

780
00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:54.760
<v Speaker 5>knew there was just a forerunner to what was going

781
00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:58.960
<v Speaker 5>to happen in Iran later, and we had for permission

782
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:03.079
<v Speaker 5>to go in and do an extensive survey of the

783
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.599
<v Speaker 5>embassy and its surrounding areas and to be able to

784
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:14.239
<v Speaker 5>respond accordingly. The State Department approved giving us what they

785
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:20.079
<v Speaker 5>call country clearance, but believe it or not, the United

786
00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:24.679
<v Speaker 5>States European Command that had overview of Iran at that

787
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:26.840
<v Speaker 5>point in time denied.

788
00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:28.679
<v Speaker 4>What is called theater clearance.

789
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:32.559
<v Speaker 5>So we were incapable of going in and doing a

790
00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:37.639
<v Speaker 5>detailed survey of the embassy grounds and the embassy itself,

791
00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:39.760
<v Speaker 5>and that cost us.

792
00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:41.199
<v Speaker 4>It cost us peak time.

793
00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:52.920
<v Speaker 5>So when Delta was formed, General Meyer had made us

794
00:54:53.599 --> 00:55:01.000
<v Speaker 5>do an initial assessment process in July ofineteen seventy eight,

795
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:05.840
<v Speaker 5>whereas what Beckett had asked for was two years in

796
00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:10.760
<v Speaker 5>order to develop a so called full operational capability, which

797
00:55:11.079 --> 00:55:15.159
<v Speaker 5>would have been nineteen seventy nine. So in nineteen seventy

798
00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:18.440
<v Speaker 5>we passed that. By the way, in nineteen seventy eight

799
00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:25.679
<v Speaker 5>and a so called operation called Operation Blue Light was

800
00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:33.320
<v Speaker 5>forced to close. So in nineteen seventy nine, General Meyer,

801
00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:39.199
<v Speaker 5>now the Chief of Staff of the Army, it comes

802
00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:41.599
<v Speaker 5>up with a plan for us to do an international

803
00:55:41.719 --> 00:55:47.280
<v Speaker 5>validation because he understood what it would bring to the

804
00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:53.440
<v Speaker 5>United States of America if we had international personnel that

805
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:56.000
<v Speaker 5>voults for the organization.

806
00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:02.159
<v Speaker 4>So we did a exercise at.

807
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:13.880
<v Speaker 5>In South Carolina, and the international validators included Ulrich Wegner,

808
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:17.119
<v Speaker 5>the first commander of the grensh Youth Group of nine,

809
00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:22.199
<v Speaker 5>the German CT Force, Christian Pluteau, the leader of their

810
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:25.360
<v Speaker 5>John Darmay International.

811
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:28.840
<v Speaker 4>Connor Terrovison Team, and.

812
00:56:28.599 --> 00:56:33.400
<v Speaker 5>Johnny Wance, Brigadier Johnny Wants, who had previously commanded the

813
00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:37.920
<v Speaker 5>British twenty second Special Air Service and was ahead of

814
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:41.280
<v Speaker 5>their special forces at that time as a brigadier general.

815
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:46.840
<v Speaker 5>So those were our three key international validators, but it

816
00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:50.679
<v Speaker 5>also included senior people from a whole range of US

817
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:58.440
<v Speaker 5>government organizations and we passed. Ironically, we passed on the

818
00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:02.840
<v Speaker 5>fourth of November nineteen seventy nine, which was the day

819
00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:06.239
<v Speaker 5>that our embassy was taken over again.

820
00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:13.239
<v Speaker 2>Unreal anyone, So you are a intelligence officer in Delta,

821
00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:16.199
<v Speaker 2>you guys are doing this real world mission. I mean,

822
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:19.639
<v Speaker 2>this is you know, you guys are really breaking ground here,

823
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:21.800
<v Speaker 2>doing something that no one's really done before.

824
00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:23.280
<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us what it was?

825
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Like building the intelligence packet around this operation during the

826
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:31.239
<v Speaker 2>planning phase, how you went about, you know, putting all

827
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:31.519
<v Speaker 2>of this.

828
00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:35.360
<v Speaker 4>Together, you mean initially.

829
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:39.679
<v Speaker 2>Or initially for when it was still riceful before Eagle Clack.

830
00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:45.039
<v Speaker 5>Okay, so even before Eagle well, you know, you have

831
00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:48.519
<v Speaker 5>to go back and look at when we started in

832
00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:54.960
<v Speaker 5>nineteen seventy seven, the total number of dedicated terrorism analysts

833
00:57:54.960 --> 00:58:00.679
<v Speaker 5>in the entire United States government with less than twenty

834
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:06.360
<v Speaker 5>one twenty one entire US government.

835
00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:06.880
<v Speaker 4>Okay.

836
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:11.960
<v Speaker 5>When we created Delta, I brought in four analysts, so

837
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:19.320
<v Speaker 5>now the count became twenty five. So there was no

838
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:24.760
<v Speaker 5>extant terrorism database. The RAND Corporation had sold a bill

839
00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:27.360
<v Speaker 5>of goods to the United States Air Force and the

840
00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:31.519
<v Speaker 5>Defense Intelligence Agency, and what they taught it as a

841
00:58:31.639 --> 00:58:35.559
<v Speaker 5>database was in fact just a compilation of events.

842
00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:37.239
<v Speaker 4>That's not a database.

843
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:41.239
<v Speaker 5>So we worked with the Defense Advanced for Research Projects

844
00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:47.280
<v Speaker 5>Agency on creating a true database that could be churched

845
00:58:48.519 --> 00:58:54.519
<v Speaker 5>and with anal analysis in place within those search fields.

846
00:58:55.480 --> 00:58:57.960
<v Speaker 5>So that was one of the major things we did.

847
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:05.679
<v Speaker 5>We also began very unique relationships with a number of

848
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:13.280
<v Speaker 5>intergovernmental agencies, to include the FBI, CIA, the Department of

849
00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:19.639
<v Speaker 5>Energy because of their Nuclear Emergency Search Program and the

850
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:26.000
<v Speaker 5>Federal Aviation Administration because they are they're hijacking and they

851
00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:31.599
<v Speaker 5>had principal responsibility in those days. So we had to

852
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:36.480
<v Speaker 5>work hard at establishing all of these relations to include

853
00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:42.079
<v Speaker 5>with the Department of State, and so fast forwarding when

854
00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:46.840
<v Speaker 5>the embassy gets taken down in November nineteen seventy nine,

855
00:59:48.039 --> 00:59:51.800
<v Speaker 5>very quickly we were told that we needed to break

856
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:56.880
<v Speaker 5>all our contact with the Department of State. And at

857
00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:01.519
<v Speaker 5>that point in time nineteen seventy nine, the best analysts

858
01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:07.199
<v Speaker 5>of terrorism in the United States government were found in

859
01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:11.559
<v Speaker 5>the State Department Diplomatic Security Wants Center, and there were

860
01:00:11.559 --> 01:00:15.760
<v Speaker 5>about six analysts here that absolutely were doing a superb job.

861
01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:22.000
<v Speaker 5>They were led by Telford, a former regional security officer,

862
01:00:22.119 --> 01:00:26.039
<v Speaker 5>former Marine, and he knew what the whole needed to

863
01:00:26.079 --> 01:00:29.599
<v Speaker 5>be done and his people did too. So when they

864
01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:34.199
<v Speaker 5>would analyze a terrorist event, they would have drawings, cheumatics,

865
01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:39.280
<v Speaker 5>listing of weapons, you know, looking at their methodologies, et cetera,

866
01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:44.119
<v Speaker 5>and so forth, so more than just a compilation of

867
01:00:44.719 --> 01:00:48.159
<v Speaker 5>something that happened. So now we were told that we

868
01:00:48.199 --> 01:00:55.079
<v Speaker 5>needed to break our relationship with them and then not

869
01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:56.599
<v Speaker 5>contact them.

870
01:00:57.000 --> 01:00:58.400
<v Speaker 4>The reason why was that.

871
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:04.840
<v Speaker 5>Irris Fans the Circtarian State and his deputy Warren Christopher,

872
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:09.440
<v Speaker 5>had declared that they were adamantly opposed to the use

873
01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:14.159
<v Speaker 5>of any US military force to deal with the situation

874
01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:17.320
<v Speaker 5>in Iran, Okay, and so.

875
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:21.000
<v Speaker 4>Whether it was.

876
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:27.119
<v Speaker 5>President Carter or whoever, but the hierarchy declared that we

877
01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:32.760
<v Speaker 5>needed to break those relationships with State Department, and we did.

878
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:38.480
<v Speaker 2>Warren Christopher, well, I was just going to say, Warren

879
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Christopher went on to screw up in Bosnia, too, didn't they?

880
01:01:42.440 --> 01:01:43.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, thank you, yeah.

881
01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:54.440
<v Speaker 5>But but anyway, when when when the embassy went down,

882
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:01.800
<v Speaker 5>we needed to know a whole until because of the

883
01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:05.599
<v Speaker 5>lack of preparation, we found that there were no good

884
01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:07.280
<v Speaker 5>blueprints on the embassy.

885
01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:13.320
<v Speaker 4>What happened was CIA and NSA got together.

886
01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:17.119
<v Speaker 5>They called some of their people that had served in

887
01:02:17.199 --> 01:02:21.599
<v Speaker 5>that embassy before. They got pictures, they got sketches, they

888
01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:24.800
<v Speaker 5>got all kinds of things, and they put together a

889
01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:30.440
<v Speaker 5>marvelous model, skilled model within a month of the event game.

890
01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:36.960
<v Speaker 5>And they also, even though we didn't have per se blueprints,

891
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:43.480
<v Speaker 5>we started having information on doors, door the way doors open,

892
01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:47.239
<v Speaker 5>locks and so on and so forth, not as good

893
01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:48.559
<v Speaker 5>as we would have liked.

894
01:02:48.559 --> 01:02:52.960
<v Speaker 4>To have had, but far better than nothing. Okay. So

895
01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:58.760
<v Speaker 4>then there was the issue of how many hostages are there?

896
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:02.679
<v Speaker 4>That took almost two weeks to determine.

897
01:03:03.320 --> 01:03:07.119
<v Speaker 5>And in and amongst that time, it was also found

898
01:03:07.119 --> 01:03:11.039
<v Speaker 5>out that in addition to the sixty six Americans that

899
01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:15.039
<v Speaker 5>were taken hostage inside the embassy, and that the Ministry

900
01:03:15.079 --> 01:03:18.719
<v Speaker 5>of Point Affairs on that day, that there were six

901
01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:21.880
<v Speaker 5>others that the Canadians were hiding out.

902
01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:23.320
<v Speaker 4>Joe.

903
01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:27.440
<v Speaker 5>But then we needed to find out what are their

904
01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:31.960
<v Speaker 5>medical conditions, and that took time. We needed to find

905
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.320
<v Speaker 5>out how can we get into.

906
01:03:34.119 --> 01:03:36.079
<v Speaker 4>Iran and out of Iran?

907
01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:39.760
<v Speaker 5>And that took time and time and time, and so

908
01:03:40.239 --> 01:03:46.440
<v Speaker 5>it was a very tedious and it took a lot

909
01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:49.679
<v Speaker 5>of hours to get our plans together.

910
01:03:50.360 --> 01:03:54.440
<v Speaker 2>One fascinating detail that I, again was unaware of when

911
01:03:54.440 --> 01:03:55.679
<v Speaker 2>I was reading your book.

912
01:03:55.880 --> 01:03:57.079
<v Speaker 1>Could you tell us about.

913
01:03:56.880 --> 01:04:05.239
<v Speaker 4>Bob Plan, Great American? Yes, Bob during World War Two

914
01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:09.199
<v Speaker 4>was part of the Office of Strategic Services and served

915
01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:10.159
<v Speaker 4>in Yugoslavia.

916
01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:19.480
<v Speaker 5>Game He later became a what they call knock nonofficial

917
01:04:19.519 --> 01:04:24.800
<v Speaker 5>cover operative for the CIA and had gone into retirement.

918
01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:28.719
<v Speaker 5>And he was retired in Trieste, Italy, right on the

919
01:04:28.719 --> 01:04:33.639
<v Speaker 5>border with the former Yugoslavia, and they literally brought him

920
01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:36.800
<v Speaker 5>out of retirement. Now I don't know why they brought

921
01:04:37.480 --> 01:04:40.440
<v Speaker 5>Bob Plan in particular out of retirement, but they.

922
01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:41.280
<v Speaker 4>Chose the right guy.

923
01:04:42.280 --> 01:04:46.079
<v Speaker 5>He had the skills, he had the courage, and he

924
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:51.360
<v Speaker 5>went into Tehran several times, with the first time being

925
01:04:52.039 --> 01:04:56.280
<v Speaker 5>close to December of nineteen seventy nine. It took the

926
01:04:56.400 --> 01:05:01.760
<v Speaker 5>agency that amount of time to find somebody suitable to

927
01:05:02.519 --> 01:05:06.719
<v Speaker 5>send it to Tehran. And you know, I can't go

928
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:11.000
<v Speaker 5>into all the details as to what above try, but

929
01:05:11.159 --> 01:05:15.239
<v Speaker 5>he tried to make contact with the hostages and had

930
01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:20.559
<v Speaker 5>some success. He had a whole bunch of logistics things

931
01:05:20.559 --> 01:05:24.559
<v Speaker 5>that he needed to do, like find a warehouse, fine trucks,

932
01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:27.199
<v Speaker 5>fine fuel for the rescue attempt.

933
01:05:27.519 --> 01:05:33.599
<v Speaker 4>He did that in a first class manner. He did reconnaissance.

934
01:05:36.519 --> 01:05:41.199
<v Speaker 5>Just too much to expect from one person, but he

935
01:05:41.239 --> 01:05:42.760
<v Speaker 5>did what he could.

936
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:46.480
<v Speaker 1>He was the embodiment of the in Toku code.

937
01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:53.079
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, you know, very quiet, uh I did you know

938
01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:57.079
<v Speaker 5>describing the book how I first met him. You know, stupidly,

939
01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:03.320
<v Speaker 5>I say stupidly, But we were allowed to fit any

940
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:06.400
<v Speaker 5>resource that the agency was going to put in direct

941
01:06:06.400 --> 01:06:11.519
<v Speaker 5>support of US, and Bob Plan was one. So I

942
01:06:11.559 --> 01:06:14.480
<v Speaker 5>came out of isolation and up to Washington, d C.

943
01:06:15.719 --> 01:06:20.400
<v Speaker 5>To have given the name of a motel that still exists,

944
01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:25.280
<v Speaker 5>and went there to meet Bob Planned. Knocked on the

945
01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:30.199
<v Speaker 5>door and heard a gruff voice say come in. And

946
01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:33.280
<v Speaker 5>I went in there and sitting in a dark corner

947
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:37.480
<v Speaker 5>is Bob Plan looking at him and he's got an

948
01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:42.760
<v Speaker 5>our old face and you know, sun Tan And so

949
01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:46.719
<v Speaker 5>I went up. I introduced him myself to him. He

950
01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:50.440
<v Speaker 5>stood up and in his gravelly voice, he started talking

951
01:06:50.440 --> 01:06:54.159
<v Speaker 5>to me. And I asked him. I said, I understand

952
01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:58.599
<v Speaker 5>you were in retirement. Where were you in retirement? So

953
01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:01.679
<v Speaker 5>rather than say tree, yes, he said in the Mediterranean.

954
01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:07.079
<v Speaker 5>And for whatever stupid reason, the movie the Guns are

955
01:07:07.079 --> 01:07:10.480
<v Speaker 5>Never all flashed in front of my mind and I'm saying,

956
01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:15.639
<v Speaker 5>Bob Plan looking like Anthony Quinn, you know, the partisan

957
01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:21.960
<v Speaker 5>that went in and helped destroy these German placements. In

958
01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:25.639
<v Speaker 5>the movie guns are never And I said to myself,

959
01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:27.079
<v Speaker 5>this is going to work.

960
01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:29.360
<v Speaker 4>This is a gun. Yeah.

961
01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:33.599
<v Speaker 6>Out of curiosity you were since you were in the

962
01:07:33.599 --> 01:07:35.239
<v Speaker 6>intel shop, I'll ask you this.

963
01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:37.440
<v Speaker 1>I know it's close hold.

964
01:07:37.239 --> 01:07:39.519
<v Speaker 6>But were you aware of the efforts of grill flame

965
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:43.360
<v Speaker 6>while you were a grill flame project.

966
01:07:43.480 --> 01:07:48.159
<v Speaker 5>The operation plan called for one MC one thirty combat talent.

967
01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:52.920
<v Speaker 5>The operation plan called for one MC one thirty combat

968
01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:57.159
<v Speaker 5>talent to lift off in our head of the other

969
01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:00.599
<v Speaker 5>one thirties that we're going to leave Monster Island.

970
01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:05.280
<v Speaker 4>And the reason why was that they would be able

971
01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:06.320
<v Speaker 4>to go in.

972
01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:11.079
<v Speaker 5>And if we crash landed on the surface, then the

973
01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:15.119
<v Speaker 5>mission would be aborted. Okay, but if we landed safely,

974
01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:21.960
<v Speaker 5>then the remotely triggered landing lights would be checked out

975
01:08:22.199 --> 01:08:26.439
<v Speaker 5>and roadblocks. They went around in an oval and lined

976
01:08:26.520 --> 01:08:35.159
<v Speaker 5>up to land again, and they did successfully. It was

977
01:08:35.199 --> 01:08:39.680
<v Speaker 5>a rough landing, according to most I did not think

978
01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:40.800
<v Speaker 5>it was a rough landing.

979
01:08:40.840 --> 01:08:42.760
<v Speaker 4>I was standing on the.

980
01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:45.920
<v Speaker 5>Rear of the aircraft at the ramp, so I don't

981
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:48.840
<v Speaker 5>know if my adrenaline was flowing so fast or whatever,

982
01:08:48.920 --> 01:08:52.800
<v Speaker 5>but I did not experience a rough landing. But everybody

983
01:08:52.840 --> 01:08:55.680
<v Speaker 5>else later told me, yeah, it was a.

984
01:08:55.159 --> 01:08:56.159
<v Speaker 4>Very bad landing.

985
01:08:58.079 --> 01:09:04.119
<v Speaker 5>So we started attaching the clamshell, rear doors start opening,

986
01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:08.359
<v Speaker 5>and I had after the crew chief to signal beam

987
01:09:08.960 --> 01:09:10.520
<v Speaker 5>when they were about to stop.

988
01:09:11.159 --> 01:09:14.159
<v Speaker 4>And so when I got the signal from him, I.

989
01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:19.000
<v Speaker 5>Had worked out a plan with staff chargeant Little John,

990
01:09:19.600 --> 01:09:23.279
<v Speaker 5>my ranking ranger, that we would then exit the aircraft.

991
01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:25.960
<v Speaker 5>He would move forward and I would go to the

992
01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:32.079
<v Speaker 5>rear to establish initial security. And that was very fortunate

993
01:09:32.199 --> 01:09:36.640
<v Speaker 5>because shortly afterwards I'm in the rear or to the

994
01:09:36.680 --> 01:09:41.680
<v Speaker 5>rear of the aircraft and I hear Bob Rubio, one

995
01:09:41.720 --> 01:09:44.159
<v Speaker 5>of my rangers, come up on me on a motorcyclone,

996
01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:46.760
<v Speaker 5>and the next I get on the back of the

997
01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:50.479
<v Speaker 5>motorcyclone and the next thing we see on the lights

998
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:54.399
<v Speaker 5>of a Mercedes bus coming down through down the road.

999
01:09:55.319 --> 01:09:59.199
<v Speaker 5>Little John fired M two O three forty millimeter grenade wrong.

1000
01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:01.880
<v Speaker 4>It impacted in front of the bus.

1001
01:10:02.359 --> 01:10:05.960
<v Speaker 5>The bus came to a stop and I said to Ruby,

1002
01:10:06.039 --> 01:10:09.520
<v Speaker 5>I said, Rube, let's go. We can't wait on our

1003
01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:14.399
<v Speaker 5>other two, who were Kurt Massey and Mike mcgirham. They

1004
01:10:14.399 --> 01:10:17.920
<v Speaker 5>were airstircling a little slow getting off of the airplane,

1005
01:10:18.479 --> 01:10:22.800
<v Speaker 5>so we started taking off down this dirt track on

1006
01:10:22.800 --> 01:10:24.239
<v Speaker 5>a Yamaha motorcycle.

1007
01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:27.760
<v Speaker 4>He looks that back at me and he said, sir,

1008
01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:29.600
<v Speaker 4>and I said, I see him. Groupe.

1009
01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:33.359
<v Speaker 5>Well, we saw were the lights of a vehicle coming

1010
01:10:33.439 --> 01:10:37.640
<v Speaker 5>at us, So I said, go left, go south, lay

1011
01:10:37.680 --> 01:10:40.600
<v Speaker 5>your bike down, grab one of your light anti tag

1012
01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:44.439
<v Speaker 5>weapons that were strapped onto the handlebars of the motorcycle,

1013
01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:47.960
<v Speaker 5>and come up on me, which he did. I told

1014
01:10:48.039 --> 01:10:51.439
<v Speaker 5>him move forward to me. They cover behind the burm.

1015
01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:55.000
<v Speaker 5>The burm was where a road grader had put up

1016
01:10:55.039 --> 01:10:57.560
<v Speaker 5>about a one foot berm on the side of the road,

1017
01:10:58.039 --> 01:11:01.239
<v Speaker 5>and Rubio did so. I'm standing in the middle of

1018
01:11:01.239 --> 01:11:06.680
<v Speaker 5>the road shick thing where the vehicle to stop. I

1019
01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:08.680
<v Speaker 5>know it's a truck because of the height, its spread

1020
01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:13.039
<v Speaker 5>of the lights. I can't tell you, honestly how fast

1021
01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:17.760
<v Speaker 5>that truck is coming. I know I am illuminated by

1022
01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:22.119
<v Speaker 5>his headlights. He's still coming. I opened fire with my

1023
01:11:22.239 --> 01:11:25.560
<v Speaker 5>M sixteen, knowing in my heart I can't stop a

1024
01:11:25.640 --> 01:11:28.520
<v Speaker 5>damn truck with an M sixteen, And I had a

1025
01:11:28.520 --> 01:11:32.840
<v Speaker 5>flashback to Vietnam, which is another story that not pertinent.

1026
01:11:32.439 --> 01:11:32.680
<v Speaker 4>But.

1027
01:11:34.399 --> 01:11:37.199
<v Speaker 5>And the rules of engagement were minimal use of force.

1028
01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:40.239
<v Speaker 5>So I'm firing at the radiator in the headlights. And

1029
01:11:40.279 --> 01:11:43.239
<v Speaker 5>I finally said f this, and I raised my point.

1030
01:11:43.239 --> 01:11:49.399
<v Speaker 5>I aim, he's still coming. Room sure cockula ready, sure

1031
01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:59.880
<v Speaker 5>fire womb guys, whore A flame is going up the

1032
01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:03.800
<v Speaker 5>back of a three thousand gallon fuel tanker. The truck

1033
01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:09.079
<v Speaker 5>did not explode, mind you, okay, but what the hell

1034
01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:12.840
<v Speaker 5>else can go wrong? So I said, Rue, keep me covered.

1035
01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:17.159
<v Speaker 5>He's lying behind the berm and I try to do

1036
01:12:19.159 --> 01:12:24.439
<v Speaker 5>move in on a circle to keep from being directly

1037
01:12:24.479 --> 01:12:29.600
<v Speaker 5>illuminated as I instead of moving forward. And as I

1038
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:35.000
<v Speaker 5>came in from the side, I saw another similar truck

1039
01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:39.680
<v Speaker 5>gasoline tanker come up behind him, and I ran back

1040
01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:44.880
<v Speaker 5>and to get Rubio, and I said, there's another truck

1041
01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:47.159
<v Speaker 5>behind her. He said, sir, if somebody just jumped out

1042
01:12:47.159 --> 01:12:49.479
<v Speaker 5>of the cab on the first one. I said, okay,

1043
01:12:49.680 --> 01:12:53.560
<v Speaker 5>let's go grab the motorcycle. It took a number of

1044
01:12:53.680 --> 01:12:58.640
<v Speaker 5>kicks before the damn thing kicked over. That Rubio is

1045
01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:01.000
<v Speaker 5>something with his night vision gorgos, and I said, what's

1046
01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:06.359
<v Speaker 5>the matter. He said, my mvgs aren't working, sir. And

1047
01:13:06.520 --> 01:13:09.840
<v Speaker 5>I went like this, and I said, son of a bitch,

1048
01:13:10.399 --> 01:13:13.079
<v Speaker 5>I had given up my mvjs because we were short

1049
01:13:13.119 --> 01:13:21.359
<v Speaker 5>of equipment. And I'm cussing myself, but I said, okay,

1050
01:13:22.039 --> 01:13:26.159
<v Speaker 5>we had infrared paper taped over the headlight.

1051
01:13:27.439 --> 01:13:30.199
<v Speaker 4>So I said, Rue, just give it your best.

1052
01:13:31.760 --> 01:13:34.680
<v Speaker 5>And take off, and if you go out ten minutes

1053
01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:37.439
<v Speaker 5>or ten miles and can't catch it, come on back,

1054
01:13:38.359 --> 01:13:40.560
<v Speaker 5>which he did, and he was not able to catch

1055
01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:43.600
<v Speaker 5>a second vehicle had too much of a head start

1056
01:13:43.680 --> 01:13:44.840
<v Speaker 5>on us.

1057
01:13:46.239 --> 01:13:51.640
<v Speaker 4>But I'm saying, what the hell else can go wrong?

1058
01:13:54.039 --> 01:13:58.359
<v Speaker 5>And in reality, the only other thing that well, only

1059
01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:02.359
<v Speaker 5>two other things went wrong were the helicopters.

1060
01:14:01.680 --> 01:14:02.800
<v Speaker 4>Were late coming in.

1061
01:14:07.000 --> 01:14:13.520
<v Speaker 5>And then one end corner had hydraulic problems and Ed Seffert,

1062
01:14:13.560 --> 01:14:20.159
<v Speaker 5>who was the helo squadron commander, declared that it was unfliable,

1063
01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:24.520
<v Speaker 5>that was imminent failure, and so we were down to

1064
01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:29.039
<v Speaker 5>five flable and the mission was aborted. Then the next

1065
01:14:29.079 --> 01:14:33.520
<v Speaker 5>thing that went wrong was when Jim Schaeffer was attempting

1066
01:14:33.520 --> 01:14:38.439
<v Speaker 5>to fly his helicopter back to the Nimitz, he collided

1067
01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:43.159
<v Speaker 5>with an Easy one thirty with Delta's Peace Quadron on board,

1068
01:14:44.760 --> 01:14:49.800
<v Speaker 5>and that led to the death of three Marines and

1069
01:14:49.880 --> 01:14:51.000
<v Speaker 5>five Air Force people.

1070
01:14:52.760 --> 01:14:55.800
<v Speaker 2>And it was a little bit dicey, as I recall

1071
01:14:56.439 --> 01:15:01.640
<v Speaker 2>for you during the exfiltration as well.

1072
01:15:01.840 --> 01:15:06.680
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I you know, originally I was assigned three rangers

1073
01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:11.000
<v Speaker 5>for whatever reason they decided, I don't know who they

1074
01:15:11.800 --> 01:15:17.800
<v Speaker 5>were candidly, but I was reinforced with seven other people.

1075
01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:21.439
<v Speaker 5>So now I had including myself, a total of eleven

1076
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:29.279
<v Speaker 5>and two motorcycles. So when the mission was supported, or

1077
01:15:29.319 --> 01:15:32.800
<v Speaker 5>even before it was supported, I started shuttling.

1078
01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:37.560
<v Speaker 4>My people back two at a time, one on the back.

1079
01:15:37.399 --> 01:15:41.279
<v Speaker 5>Of the two motorcycles I had, and so I was

1080
01:15:41.640 --> 01:15:46.000
<v Speaker 5>the odd guy out. I was walking backwards down the

1081
01:15:46.079 --> 01:15:50.960
<v Speaker 5>road to keep my eye out towards where vehicles might

1082
01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:55.680
<v Speaker 5>come from came, so I was unaware of the crash

1083
01:15:56.359 --> 01:16:00.079
<v Speaker 5>of the helicopter into the one thirty. There was a

1084
01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:04.520
<v Speaker 5>lot of noise out there, so more noise was meaningless

1085
01:16:04.560 --> 01:16:08.199
<v Speaker 5>to me in terms of a crash game, and I

1086
01:16:08.239 --> 01:16:12.840
<v Speaker 5>certainly did not see the fire that ensued because I'm

1087
01:16:12.840 --> 01:16:13.800
<v Speaker 5>walking backwards.

1088
01:16:14.079 --> 01:16:19.680
<v Speaker 4>Game, I might not have made it all if it weren't for.

1089
01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:27.359
<v Speaker 5>The good work of Carl Savory, who was our acting surgeon,

1090
01:16:28.520 --> 01:16:31.640
<v Speaker 5>who made a jerk by the name of Johnson come

1091
01:16:31.720 --> 01:16:34.640
<v Speaker 5>back on his cheap to look for me.

1092
01:16:34.680 --> 01:16:35.359
<v Speaker 4>One more time.

1093
01:16:38.279 --> 01:16:41.600
<v Speaker 5>Otherwise I'd have been left on my own.

1094
01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:51.199
<v Speaker 2>You guys evacuated back began planning a second attempt, honey Badger,

1095
01:16:52.399 --> 01:16:54.479
<v Speaker 2>but by that time the hostages had kind of been

1096
01:16:54.479 --> 01:16:59.079
<v Speaker 2>spread around, you suspected, and a hostage rescue effort would

1097
01:16:59.119 --> 01:17:01.039
<v Speaker 2>be not really possible.

1098
01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:05.960
<v Speaker 5>Correct, Yeah, you know, because they were scattered through the

1099
01:17:06.039 --> 01:17:11.439
<v Speaker 5>seven wins, And yeah, it would have been very problematic

1100
01:17:12.520 --> 01:17:16.600
<v Speaker 5>to go after three to five of them and to

1101
01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:21.119
<v Speaker 5>see the others undoubtedly be killed in the aftermath.

1102
01:17:23.079 --> 01:17:26.399
<v Speaker 2>There was one more army adventurer I'd like to ask

1103
01:17:26.479 --> 01:17:30.279
<v Speaker 2>you about, and that was I guess the next mission

1104
01:17:30.319 --> 01:17:33.640
<v Speaker 2>that the unit rolled into, which was potentially rescuing American

1105
01:17:33.680 --> 01:17:35.000
<v Speaker 2>POWs in Laos.

1106
01:17:38.159 --> 01:17:44.720
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that was a sad concoction, a lie ye feed

1107
01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:56.439
<v Speaker 5>by the retired Special Forces lieutenant colonel who I can

1108
01:17:56.479 --> 01:17:59.079
<v Speaker 5>only have despicable words to describe him.

1109
01:17:59.239 --> 01:18:01.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but he lied.

1110
01:18:02.680 --> 01:18:07.039
<v Speaker 5>He continued with his lies even after the mission was

1111
01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:11.600
<v Speaker 5>called off because of the lack of true intelligence and

1112
01:18:11.640 --> 01:18:15.279
<v Speaker 5>the fact that it was in fact known that he

1113
01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:20.880
<v Speaker 5>had lied about crossing into laws, but he continued to

1114
01:18:20.960 --> 01:18:26.960
<v Speaker 5>pursue what he wanted to do. And are the rumor

1115
01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:30.840
<v Speaker 5>mill had it that he got over a million dollars

1116
01:18:30.880 --> 01:18:36.439
<v Speaker 5>each from Clintwood, Clint Eastwood and Bill Shafter on.

1117
01:18:36.479 --> 01:18:37.479
<v Speaker 4>His lies.

1118
01:18:38.720 --> 01:18:41.279
<v Speaker 1>To fund his supposed rescue effort.

1119
01:18:42.079 --> 01:18:49.039
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah, and having supposedly seen live American POWs inside.

1120
01:18:50.119 --> 01:18:53.000
<v Speaker 2>You point out in the book that the intelligence was

1121
01:18:53.039 --> 01:18:55.199
<v Speaker 2>pretty shaky from the get go. I mean there was

1122
01:18:55.680 --> 01:18:58.319
<v Speaker 2>an imagery analyst who thought that the shadows of the

1123
01:18:58.319 --> 01:19:01.399
<v Speaker 2>people in this area were tall enough that they were Caucasian.

1124
01:19:01.560 --> 01:19:03.439
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is kind of flaky.

1125
01:19:03.119 --> 01:19:07.439
<v Speaker 4>Right, absolutely. And the other one was.

1126
01:19:08.840 --> 01:19:12.079
<v Speaker 5>Suppose it be fifty two stamped in the grass around

1127
01:19:12.119 --> 01:19:16.680
<v Speaker 5>the compound. You know, first off, you had to strain

1128
01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:21.199
<v Speaker 5>yourself to believe that says B fifty two. And even

1129
01:19:21.239 --> 01:19:26.680
<v Speaker 5>if it did, what the hell's a meaning? It made

1130
01:19:26.680 --> 01:19:27.199
<v Speaker 5>no sense?

1131
01:19:29.159 --> 01:19:30.000
<v Speaker 1>And I mean.

1132
01:19:31.520 --> 01:19:36.279
<v Speaker 2>I gather from your opinion way that you don't put

1133
01:19:36.279 --> 01:19:39.399
<v Speaker 2>any stock in this idea that there were American POWs

1134
01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:40.640
<v Speaker 2>left behind after the war.

1135
01:19:41.600 --> 01:19:45.760
<v Speaker 1>No, yeah, yeah.

1136
01:19:44.840 --> 01:19:47.239
<v Speaker 2>I tend to agree with you based I was a

1137
01:19:47.239 --> 01:19:49.359
<v Speaker 2>little bit too young for that, but based on everything

1138
01:19:49.399 --> 01:19:50.880
<v Speaker 2>I've read and everyone I've talked to.

1139
01:19:53.159 --> 01:19:56.560
<v Speaker 4>You know, we had some defectoris I forget how many?

1140
01:19:56.840 --> 01:19:57.439
<v Speaker 1>Garfield?

1141
01:19:59.039 --> 01:20:06.760
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, m but I you know real po ws well,

1142
01:20:07.079 --> 01:20:12.239
<v Speaker 5>you know, efforts ever since then have continued continually debunked

1143
01:20:13.680 --> 01:20:17.359
<v Speaker 5>live po ws, least in Vietnam, and after the Paris

1144
01:20:17.359 --> 01:20:20.439
<v Speaker 5>Accords and the return of our po ws.

1145
01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:23.840
<v Speaker 1>Talk to us then a little bit about retirement.

1146
01:20:24.560 --> 01:20:26.479
<v Speaker 2>How did how did you sort of end your career

1147
01:20:26.560 --> 01:20:30.119
<v Speaker 2>in the Army.

1148
01:20:30.960 --> 01:20:38.359
<v Speaker 5>Unfortunately, I retired very angry. I just couldn't described as

1149
01:20:38.399 --> 01:20:43.359
<v Speaker 5>Boso Johnson who had become the Delta Deputy commander without

1150
01:20:43.399 --> 01:20:48.119
<v Speaker 5>being either Delta qualified or Special Forces qualified.

1151
01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:54.039
<v Speaker 4>And and yeah, it was a lousy officer.

1152
01:20:55.359 --> 01:21:01.159
<v Speaker 5>He allegedly won the Defense Distinguished Service Cross in Vietnam.

1153
01:21:01.800 --> 01:21:04.479
<v Speaker 4>I don't know if he did or not. We all

1154
01:21:04.520 --> 01:21:06.279
<v Speaker 4>I know is he was a lossy officer.

1155
01:21:07.960 --> 01:21:15.199
<v Speaker 5>So General Doger was kidnapped in Italy, and normally I

1156
01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:17.520
<v Speaker 5>was one that would be.

1157
01:21:17.399 --> 01:21:19.760
<v Speaker 4>Selected to go on a so called advanced party.

1158
01:21:20.960 --> 01:21:23.560
<v Speaker 5>So I walked into Johnson's office and I see this

1159
01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:28.199
<v Speaker 5>black kit bag with a black uniform, a black suppress

1160
01:21:28.359 --> 01:21:31.680
<v Speaker 5>MP five, a black helman, and I said, what the

1161
01:21:31.720 --> 01:21:34.600
<v Speaker 5>hell is this? And he looked at me and said, well,

1162
01:21:34.640 --> 01:21:36.880
<v Speaker 5>you know, I said, no, I goddamn don't know.

1163
01:21:37.840 --> 01:21:40.840
<v Speaker 4>Well, we got to be ready for I said, go

1164
01:21:41.000 --> 01:21:41.640
<v Speaker 4>f yourself.

1165
01:21:41.720 --> 01:21:47.000
<v Speaker 5>You know you're not goddamn qualified, you know, And besides that,

1166
01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:49.880
<v Speaker 5>you don't understand what the hell we're going there for.

1167
01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:54.079
<v Speaker 5>We're going there to support the US embassy and the

1168
01:21:54.119 --> 01:22:00.720
<v Speaker 5>Italian government, and if the Italian Italian government wants us,

1169
01:22:01.680 --> 01:22:04.439
<v Speaker 5>then we would consider a hostage rescue.

1170
01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:07.399
<v Speaker 4>But you're not qualified, so why are you going with

1171
01:22:07.439 --> 01:22:08.199
<v Speaker 4>all this crap?

1172
01:22:10.279 --> 01:22:14.880
<v Speaker 5>And I walked out through my retirement papers and was

1173
01:22:14.920 --> 01:22:18.520
<v Speaker 5>based on another thing that was happening where the Joint

1174
01:22:18.520 --> 01:22:23.159
<v Speaker 5>Special Operations Command J two was accusing me of sabotaging

1175
01:22:23.159 --> 01:22:28.840
<v Speaker 5>a program that I had created. I was very angry.

1176
01:22:28.880 --> 01:22:34.920
<v Speaker 5>And you know, the term PTSD did not exist in

1177
01:22:34.960 --> 01:22:38.560
<v Speaker 5>those days, but I had it. And in my case,

1178
01:22:38.600 --> 01:22:43.039
<v Speaker 5>as I found out later, the manifestation that I have

1179
01:22:43.359 --> 01:22:48.479
<v Speaker 5>in terms of PTSD is called anger. And my anger

1180
01:22:48.680 --> 01:22:53.760
<v Speaker 5>was ready to literally knock the block off or kill

1181
01:22:54.640 --> 01:22:59.159
<v Speaker 5>this J two or Johnson. And I said, I can't

1182
01:22:59.199 --> 01:23:01.760
<v Speaker 5>do that for my wife. It's time to go.

1183
01:23:04.279 --> 01:23:06.680
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, I guess it's somewhat ironic.

1184
01:23:06.920 --> 01:23:10.079
<v Speaker 2>After retirement, you found yourself working for Charlie back with again.

1185
01:23:12.199 --> 01:23:16.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it it was. It was tough, very honestly.

1186
01:23:20.680 --> 01:23:23.479
<v Speaker 5>Charlie tried to pull the wool over my eyes on

1187
01:23:24.199 --> 01:23:28.279
<v Speaker 5>several things. I never told him, you know, go pound

1188
01:23:28.359 --> 01:23:29.880
<v Speaker 5>sand because I know what you're doing.

1189
01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:32.840
<v Speaker 4>But I did know what he was doing, like lowering

1190
01:23:32.840 --> 01:23:37.479
<v Speaker 4>my salary and so on and so forth. But you

1191
01:23:37.520 --> 01:23:41.319
<v Speaker 4>know the bottom line is I still wanted he to succeed.

1192
01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:43.199
<v Speaker 4>And the business to succeed.

1193
01:23:44.560 --> 01:23:47.560
<v Speaker 5>But it came down to the point that there was

1194
01:23:47.600 --> 01:23:50.079
<v Speaker 5>no way in Hill that it was going to succeed.

1195
01:23:50.680 --> 01:23:53.439
<v Speaker 5>Charlie just simply was not a good business man, you know.

1196
01:23:55.399 --> 01:24:01.039
<v Speaker 5>And the kinds of things that we had intended to do,

1197
01:24:02.319 --> 01:24:09.479
<v Speaker 5>we're not doable unless we had a base upon which

1198
01:24:09.640 --> 01:24:15.279
<v Speaker 5>to lean on to pay the light bills, the salaries,

1199
01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:19.560
<v Speaker 5>et cetera. And instead of seed money, what we literally

1200
01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:24.239
<v Speaker 5>had was a desktop loan, which when the First National

1201
01:24:24.239 --> 01:24:33.159
<v Speaker 5>Bank of Midland went under, the government investigators literally found

1202
01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:37.000
<v Speaker 5>that desktop loan in the president's desk of the First

1203
01:24:37.079 --> 01:24:40.960
<v Speaker 5>National Bank, a milan and they were going to call

1204
01:24:42.039 --> 01:24:44.760
<v Speaker 5>our company on that loan and have us pay attack

1205
01:24:46.359 --> 01:24:50.840
<v Speaker 5>and we're not able to do so, so shrug get

1206
01:24:50.880 --> 01:24:52.840
<v Speaker 5>my shoulders. It was on to something else.

1207
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:56.640
<v Speaker 2>And you found some work with the Department of Energy

1208
01:24:56.920 --> 01:25:01.239
<v Speaker 2>and a number of other different contract and positions, and

1209
01:25:01.399 --> 01:25:03.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean one of the things that came out through

1210
01:25:03.399 --> 01:25:06.720
<v Speaker 2>your book. And not all of these contractor jobs you had,

1211
01:25:06.720 --> 01:25:11.119
<v Speaker 2>but many of them. You sound very frustrated with petty bureaucrats,

1212
01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:16.840
<v Speaker 2>nepotism in the ranks, how people are being promoted.

1213
01:25:17.079 --> 01:25:19.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, as well as ethics immorality.

1214
01:25:20.039 --> 01:25:24.439
<v Speaker 5>Yes, yes, and that continues to bother me, you know,

1215
01:25:25.439 --> 01:25:32.560
<v Speaker 5>because I see people that get positions of authority without

1216
01:25:32.600 --> 01:25:39.680
<v Speaker 5>any decent qualifications. And it happens in every administration. So

1217
01:25:39.760 --> 01:25:43.199
<v Speaker 5>I'm not picking on Republicans who have Democrats. I'm not

1218
01:25:43.239 --> 01:25:47.279
<v Speaker 5>picking on Biden or Trump or anybody.

1219
01:25:47.479 --> 01:25:48.279
<v Speaker 4>But it happens.

1220
01:25:50.479 --> 01:25:55.640
<v Speaker 5>But it is frustrating, okay, because there are ways where

1221
01:25:55.680 --> 01:26:01.439
<v Speaker 5>the system can work, where you do legitimate election based

1222
01:26:01.479 --> 01:26:08.479
<v Speaker 5>on qualifications, but a lot of times that those times happened,

1223
01:26:10.159 --> 01:26:12.319
<v Speaker 5>and that's just the way the world goes wrong.

1224
01:26:12.439 --> 01:26:15.880
<v Speaker 1>I guess we can get a little bit more into it.

1225
01:26:15.920 --> 01:26:18.359
<v Speaker 2>But you know, you did continue to do some good

1226
01:26:18.359 --> 01:26:21.039
<v Speaker 2>and secret But one thing I wanted to point out

1227
01:26:21.039 --> 01:26:23.920
<v Speaker 2>and ask you about was after nine to eleven, you

1228
01:26:24.079 --> 01:26:27.359
<v Speaker 2>started going on Fox News as a sort of military analyst,

1229
01:26:27.560 --> 01:26:29.279
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to ask you what it was like

1230
01:26:29.399 --> 01:26:31.920
<v Speaker 2>to be this person that had lived your life sort

1231
01:26:31.960 --> 01:26:35.239
<v Speaker 2>of in the shadow as an intelligence professional and now

1232
01:26:35.439 --> 01:26:38.439
<v Speaker 2>being on television in front of a camera telling talking

1233
01:26:38.479 --> 01:26:39.199
<v Speaker 2>about this stuff.

1234
01:26:40.199 --> 01:26:45.119
<v Speaker 5>Okay, Well, my motivation to go on Fox was because

1235
01:26:45.159 --> 01:26:49.079
<v Speaker 5>there were too many talking hits that absolutely had no

1236
01:26:50.520 --> 01:26:53.800
<v Speaker 5>concept of what they were talking about. Yeah, and they

1237
01:26:53.800 --> 01:26:56.439
<v Speaker 5>were lying, they were embellishing things, they were trying to

1238
01:26:56.439 --> 01:27:01.079
<v Speaker 5>make themselves look good. You know, my intent was to

1239
01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:06.239
<v Speaker 5>counter what they were doing without revealing classified information.

1240
01:27:07.920 --> 01:27:10.119
<v Speaker 4>And you know.

1241
01:27:10.119 --> 01:27:12.479
<v Speaker 5>Some people may disagree with me, but I think I

1242
01:27:12.520 --> 01:27:13.560
<v Speaker 5>did that very well.

1243
01:27:15.560 --> 01:27:15.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1244
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:19.520
<v Speaker 6>We saw, you know, like Wayne Simmons and others that

1245
01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:24.880
<v Speaker 6>might gain national notoriety on these shows who were completely

1246
01:27:25.079 --> 01:27:27.800
<v Speaker 6>had completely falsified backgrounds.

1247
01:27:28.279 --> 01:27:28.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah.

1248
01:27:29.479 --> 01:27:34.680
<v Speaker 5>There was a guy named Custer, former ranger, you know Custer.

1249
01:27:34.920 --> 01:27:41.319
<v Speaker 5>Later under his company Custer Battles, was brought under chargers

1250
01:27:41.880 --> 01:27:46.479
<v Speaker 5>for contract fraud in Iran for providing something like two

1251
01:27:46.600 --> 01:27:52.680
<v Speaker 5>hundred vehicles without engines, with his claim being this contract

1252
01:27:52.760 --> 01:27:56.039
<v Speaker 5>did not specify working engines.

1253
01:27:58.039 --> 01:27:59.239
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'm sorry.

1254
01:27:59.399 --> 01:28:03.479
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I remember for his security company in Iraq. I

1255
01:28:03.520 --> 01:28:05.720
<v Speaker 6>heard that like guys would show up and they'd handle

1256
01:28:05.880 --> 01:28:09.079
<v Speaker 6>like these old ratty beat up a k's with a

1257
01:28:09.119 --> 01:28:12.439
<v Speaker 6>couple of like rusted out magazines, and it's like and

1258
01:28:12.720 --> 01:28:14.439
<v Speaker 6>like this is their security contract.

1259
01:28:15.840 --> 01:28:20.520
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, there were there were other people that.

1260
01:28:22.479 --> 01:28:27.840
<v Speaker 5>To include some high ranking offers, Tom Lieutenant General retired

1261
01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:31.960
<v Speaker 5>Air Force Tom McInnerny, Oh my gosh, then the Director

1262
01:28:31.960 --> 01:28:36.279
<v Speaker 5>of the Joint Staff. He didn't have a clue in

1263
01:28:36.359 --> 01:28:42.520
<v Speaker 5>terms of what he was talking about. And so, yeah,

1264
01:28:42.600 --> 01:28:45.439
<v Speaker 5>you know it was, like I say, my motivation was

1265
01:28:45.479 --> 01:28:52.159
<v Speaker 5>to counqure these talking heads that at no basis in

1266
01:28:52.279 --> 01:28:57.000
<v Speaker 5>fact for what they were talking about, but without revealing

1267
01:28:57.000 --> 01:28:58.119
<v Speaker 5>classified information.

1268
01:28:59.359 --> 01:29:02.119
<v Speaker 4>I was pushed hard several times on Fox.

1269
01:29:02.359 --> 01:29:04.520
<v Speaker 5>Oh, tell us about this, tell us about that, and

1270
01:29:05.239 --> 01:29:14.560
<v Speaker 5>you know I would just smile and see, sorry.

1271
01:29:11.439 --> 01:29:13.399
<v Speaker 2>But you did go on to do some I mean,

1272
01:29:13.479 --> 01:29:16.039
<v Speaker 2>some frustrations, but also it sounds like some good work

1273
01:29:16.199 --> 01:29:21.840
<v Speaker 2>at ASD. Solik, the Assistant Secretary of Defense Special Operations

1274
01:29:21.840 --> 01:29:24.319
<v Speaker 2>of Low Intensity Conflict for our listeners out there in

1275
01:29:24.399 --> 01:29:25.880
<v Speaker 2>office in the Pentagon.

1276
01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:26.960
<v Speaker 1>Tell us a little bit about that.

1277
01:29:28.720 --> 01:29:32.399
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it was a mixed bag because you know, the

1278
01:29:32.640 --> 01:29:38.199
<v Speaker 5>Assistant Secretary was someone that I had hired to replace

1279
01:29:38.279 --> 01:29:42.119
<v Speaker 5>me in Delta, and I had nurtured him through all

1280
01:29:42.159 --> 01:29:49.680
<v Speaker 5>these years and when he got the call asking him

1281
01:29:49.720 --> 01:29:54.880
<v Speaker 5>if he was prepared to be nominated, allegedly, he called

1282
01:29:54.880 --> 01:29:57.399
<v Speaker 5>me and said, you're the first guy I have talked with. Okay,

1283
01:29:58.600 --> 01:30:01.000
<v Speaker 5>not allegedly, that's what he to me. When he called me,

1284
01:30:01.920 --> 01:30:03.479
<v Speaker 5>he said what do I do? I said, you take

1285
01:30:03.520 --> 01:30:06.039
<v Speaker 5>that damn job? Well, are you going to come in

1286
01:30:06.119 --> 01:30:07.800
<v Speaker 5>and help me. I said, I will come in and

1287
01:30:07.880 --> 01:30:11.600
<v Speaker 5>help you, provided you allow me to do one thing.

1288
01:30:12.039 --> 01:30:13.920
<v Speaker 4>And that has to build you a strategic plan.

1289
01:30:15.119 --> 01:30:21.359
<v Speaker 5>Okay, well, God bless Tom O'Connell. He renemed on that,

1290
01:30:23.560 --> 01:30:27.000
<v Speaker 5>and he renemed on a number of other things.

1291
01:30:28.000 --> 01:30:29.000
<v Speaker 4>That I wanted to do.

1292
01:30:30.960 --> 01:30:34.560
<v Speaker 5>But regardless, I still was able to do a lot

1293
01:30:34.720 --> 01:30:39.560
<v Speaker 5>in hasty sould. And so when I walked away from

1294
01:30:39.600 --> 01:30:43.000
<v Speaker 5>that organization, I held my head hyh.

1295
01:30:45.600 --> 01:30:47.000
<v Speaker 4>But there were things.

1296
01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:54.720
<v Speaker 5>That still required fixing that I could have fixed along

1297
01:30:54.760 --> 01:30:58.520
<v Speaker 5>with the hope of others, all the way back in

1298
01:30:58.520 --> 01:31:01.520
<v Speaker 5>two thousand and four, five, six and seven.

1299
01:31:02.399 --> 01:31:06.279
<v Speaker 1>Why do you think there's this bureaucratic resistance to that effort.

1300
01:31:06.159 --> 01:31:16.520
<v Speaker 5>With I'll describe a phenomena that I've seen so many

1301
01:31:16.600 --> 01:31:23.359
<v Speaker 5>bureaucrats come in, whether it's in the private sector or

1302
01:31:23.880 --> 01:31:28.720
<v Speaker 5>in government, if they get handed something that they don't

1303
01:31:28.760 --> 01:31:34.840
<v Speaker 5>know anything about. Instead of trying to learn, they try

1304
01:31:34.880 --> 01:31:38.960
<v Speaker 5>to hide their inabilities and their lack of knowledge.

1305
01:31:40.319 --> 01:31:41.920
<v Speaker 4>And one of the ways they do.

1306
01:31:41.760 --> 01:31:48.479
<v Speaker 5>That is to create different ways of describing something where

1307
01:31:48.520 --> 01:31:52.520
<v Speaker 5>there's no need to change the terminology.

1308
01:31:53.039 --> 01:31:55.960
<v Speaker 4>So the best example I can give you is in

1309
01:31:56.039 --> 01:32:00.960
<v Speaker 4>the Pentagon there was a retired Navy camp and who

1310
01:32:01.039 --> 01:32:05.600
<v Speaker 4>only became the principal Deputy under Secretary of Defense for

1311
01:32:05.760 --> 01:32:11.920
<v Speaker 4>policy because his wife worked for Donald Rumso and said

1312
01:32:11.960 --> 01:32:16.439
<v Speaker 4>she would have to terminate because her husband was being moved,

1313
01:32:17.439 --> 01:32:21.520
<v Speaker 4>and Rumsho said, I can't have you leaving and made

1314
01:32:21.560 --> 01:32:26.199
<v Speaker 4>him hire as retired navy captain who had never done

1315
01:32:26.319 --> 01:32:31.000
<v Speaker 4>policy in his life, as a principal the number two

1316
01:32:33.920 --> 01:32:38.439
<v Speaker 4>in defense policy. It's so he could not comprehend what

1317
01:32:38.600 --> 01:32:43.840
<v Speaker 4>unconventional warfare was, so he created a term called irregular warfare,

1318
01:32:45.079 --> 01:32:49.439
<v Speaker 4>and all his psycho fans ran around kissing his you

1319
01:32:49.479 --> 01:32:53.479
<v Speaker 4>know what, saying, oh irregular, I said, you know, describe

1320
01:32:53.479 --> 01:32:56.640
<v Speaker 4>for me what the hell irregular warfare is. Well, you know, no,

1321
01:32:56.840 --> 01:32:58.199
<v Speaker 4>I don't know. You know.

1322
01:33:00.039 --> 01:33:06.640
<v Speaker 5>It's the difference between irregular and regular warfare. Well, and

1323
01:33:06.720 --> 01:33:11.079
<v Speaker 5>I get all this tap dancing. And for seven years

1324
01:33:11.920 --> 01:33:18.119
<v Speaker 5>there was a one paragraph definition and JCS publication one,

1325
01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:22.960
<v Speaker 5>the deal d Dictionary. And now you've got people trying

1326
01:33:23.000 --> 01:33:25.000
<v Speaker 5>to say whatever the warfare is.

1327
01:33:25.439 --> 01:33:26.560
<v Speaker 4>It was a waste of.

1328
01:33:26.520 --> 01:33:31.319
<v Speaker 5>Time as well what I call forcing others to learn, okay,

1329
01:33:32.159 --> 01:33:37.399
<v Speaker 5>and you try not to show your stupidity by creating

1330
01:33:37.479 --> 01:33:42.760
<v Speaker 5>new terminology and causing people to run off and try

1331
01:33:42.800 --> 01:33:46.920
<v Speaker 5>to deal with your terminology because you're in a position

1332
01:33:47.479 --> 01:33:51.560
<v Speaker 5>of authority and power, and that, as you can tell,

1333
01:33:52.359 --> 01:33:56.920
<v Speaker 5>greatly angers me. And it's one of the reasons that

1334
01:33:57.920 --> 01:34:00.840
<v Speaker 5>of government is non effective when they put the wrong

1335
01:34:00.880 --> 01:34:01.760
<v Speaker 5>people in George.

1336
01:34:03.760 --> 01:34:05.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you point out a few examples in the book

1337
01:34:05.760 --> 01:34:08.720
<v Speaker 2>where like people are getting hired because like this person's

1338
01:34:08.760 --> 01:34:11.359
<v Speaker 2>having an affair with this person and so they're hiring.

1339
01:34:11.479 --> 01:34:13.159
<v Speaker 2>It's like, oh my god, really.

1340
01:34:14.479 --> 01:34:14.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1341
01:34:15.119 --> 01:34:20.560
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, And you know, I tried not to name names

1342
01:34:21.279 --> 01:34:26.319
<v Speaker 5>for the most part, because you know, my intent would

1343
01:34:26.359 --> 01:34:27.560
<v Speaker 5>to talk more about.

1344
01:34:27.319 --> 01:34:30.399
<v Speaker 4>The good people. Yeah, yeah, I get it, and I

1345
01:34:30.439 --> 01:34:31.680
<v Speaker 4>hope I did that.

1346
01:34:31.479 --> 01:34:34.279
<v Speaker 1>You know. Yeah.

1347
01:34:34.319 --> 01:34:37.279
<v Speaker 2>So I think we're going to have some questions from

1348
01:34:37.399 --> 01:34:41.439
<v Speaker 2>our viewers and listeners. But my last question tonight, Wade

1349
01:34:41.479 --> 01:34:44.439
<v Speaker 2>for you is I'd like to ask what inspired you

1350
01:34:44.479 --> 01:34:47.640
<v Speaker 2>to write the in Toku Code, After you know, again

1351
01:34:47.760 --> 01:34:50.399
<v Speaker 2>spending your life in the shadows, what made you decide

1352
01:34:50.399 --> 01:34:53.319
<v Speaker 2>to come forward and tell your story?

1353
01:34:54.520 --> 01:34:58.199
<v Speaker 4>The long story was, I made an agreement.

1354
01:34:59.359 --> 01:35:04.840
<v Speaker 5>On March first, two thousand and seven, over seventeen years ago, okay,

1355
01:35:05.760 --> 01:35:07.920
<v Speaker 5>and it was with a friend by the name of

1356
01:35:07.960 --> 01:35:14.840
<v Speaker 5>Mizuho Bobrowski. Mizuho had been adopted by a Navy sailor,

1357
01:35:15.960 --> 01:35:22.600
<v Speaker 5>was of Japanese ethnicity, became a naturalized citizen, came in

1358
01:35:22.640 --> 01:35:27.359
<v Speaker 5>to ask Special Forces, and recharge with Special Forces as

1359
01:35:27.399 --> 01:35:28.720
<v Speaker 5>a sergeant first class.

1360
01:35:29.680 --> 01:35:35.920
<v Speaker 4>He had ten percent disability from the Veterans Administration, which

1361
01:35:35.960 --> 01:35:39.760
<v Speaker 4>means he was not getting anything. Okay.

1362
01:35:39.960 --> 01:35:43.920
<v Speaker 5>His wife was fighting breast cancer and his daughter was

1363
01:35:44.319 --> 01:35:49.760
<v Speaker 5>enrolled in an expensive East Coast university, and.

1364
01:35:49.680 --> 01:35:51.239
<v Speaker 4>He needed to make some more money.

1365
01:35:52.399 --> 01:35:57.720
<v Speaker 5>So what Mizuho was doing to make money was he

1366
01:35:57.760 --> 01:36:03.199
<v Speaker 5>was a photo journalist going back to Japan, and so

1367
01:36:03.319 --> 01:36:06.920
<v Speaker 5>he had this idea, if I write the book, he'll

1368
01:36:06.960 --> 01:36:13.119
<v Speaker 5>get it translated, he'll get it published, and he'll make well.

1369
01:36:13.159 --> 01:36:16.079
<v Speaker 5>He wanted me to make the money, but I was

1370
01:36:16.119 --> 01:36:19.520
<v Speaker 5>more concerned with him getting the money to take care

1371
01:36:19.560 --> 01:36:23.920
<v Speaker 5>of his family, and so we made that agreement. When

1372
01:36:24.000 --> 01:36:27.600
<v Speaker 5>March the first, two thousand and seven, clearly remember the

1373
01:36:27.680 --> 01:36:32.920
<v Speaker 5>day he went home to Los Angeles in early April,

1374
01:36:33.000 --> 01:36:38.600
<v Speaker 5>started having stomach pains and by mid late April was

1375
01:36:38.680 --> 01:36:45.640
<v Speaker 5>dead of rampant pancreatic and liver cancer that had ecstaticized

1376
01:36:45.680 --> 01:36:52.479
<v Speaker 5>throughout his body. So I lost the interests to write

1377
01:36:52.520 --> 01:36:57.119
<v Speaker 5>the book. But over the years, I've had so many

1378
01:36:58.279 --> 01:37:00.159
<v Speaker 5>of the people I've done to.

1379
01:37:01.680 --> 01:37:02.760
<v Speaker 4>People, I felp.

1380
01:37:04.640 --> 01:37:08.920
<v Speaker 5>To say, write your book because there are plenty of

1381
01:37:09.039 --> 01:37:13.920
<v Speaker 5>lessons to be learned from your life. And so I

1382
01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:17.479
<v Speaker 5>finally said, Okay, I need to get off my butt

1383
01:37:17.800 --> 01:37:18.600
<v Speaker 5>and get it done.

1384
01:37:19.159 --> 01:37:23.920
<v Speaker 2>And I did, and I you know, throughout this interview

1385
01:37:23.920 --> 01:37:27.560
<v Speaker 2>we really just covered the wavetips. There's much more in

1386
01:37:27.640 --> 01:37:30.079
<v Speaker 2>this book in the in Toku code. I hope you

1387
01:37:30.079 --> 01:37:31.199
<v Speaker 2>guys will go and pick it up.

1388
01:37:31.239 --> 01:37:31.600
<v Speaker 1>It's out.

1389
01:37:31.640 --> 01:37:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Now, what kind of questions do we have from our listeners?

1390
01:37:37.760 --> 01:37:42.520
<v Speaker 6>So what is the pass rate for getting into Delta?

1391
01:37:42.600 --> 01:37:45.359
<v Speaker 6>And the question is more about like Green Beret and

1392
01:37:45.439 --> 01:37:50.000
<v Speaker 6>Delta and then if they fail, is there like shame

1393
01:37:50.079 --> 01:37:52.279
<v Speaker 6>when they go back to their units?

1394
01:37:53.079 --> 01:37:53.319
<v Speaker 4>Okay?

1395
01:37:53.760 --> 01:37:57.119
<v Speaker 5>From early on, you know, And I can't tell you

1396
01:37:57.199 --> 01:37:59.560
<v Speaker 5>exactly what the or.

1397
01:37:59.560 --> 01:38:02.239
<v Speaker 6>A Green more Rangers, Yeah, Green Bray and Rangers. I'm sorry,

1398
01:38:02.279 --> 01:38:03.600
<v Speaker 6>I don't know if I said that, goohead.

1399
01:38:03.840 --> 01:38:07.880
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, okay, I can't tell you exactly what the past

1400
01:38:07.960 --> 01:38:12.640
<v Speaker 5>rate is for for Delta. In the early days, it

1401
01:38:12.800 --> 01:38:16.840
<v Speaker 5>was somewhere between ten and twenty percent, with every class

1402
01:38:17.159 --> 01:38:23.520
<v Speaker 5>being different. Okay, but sell them if ever over twenty percent.

1403
01:38:25.720 --> 01:38:31.920
<v Speaker 5>It's a grueling process in terms of Special Forces. Thanks

1404
01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:35.760
<v Speaker 5>to Dick Potter when he was in the deputy to

1405
01:38:35.920 --> 01:38:43.279
<v Speaker 5>Jim Guess at the Special Forces Command, he came up

1406
01:38:43.279 --> 01:38:47.560
<v Speaker 5>with the idea that SF needed an assessment and selection course,

1407
01:38:48.279 --> 01:38:52.319
<v Speaker 5>which they came up with and stick to to today.

1408
01:38:53.239 --> 01:39:00.279
<v Speaker 5>I understand their pass rate is significantly better, but I

1409
01:39:00.319 --> 01:39:03.880
<v Speaker 5>don't know again what the exact percentages are, but it

1410
01:39:04.079 --> 01:39:10.520
<v Speaker 5>is significantly better than the Delta assessment and selection process.

1411
01:39:10.560 --> 01:39:14.920
<v Speaker 6>And then outside of just the initial selection, you would

1412
01:39:15.039 --> 01:39:18.800
<v Speaker 6>also like OTC itself was very challenging, and so guys

1413
01:39:18.840 --> 01:39:23.039
<v Speaker 6>would would wash out of that for marksmanship or whatever else.

1414
01:39:23.119 --> 01:39:28.640
<v Speaker 5>Right, yeah, absolutely, So the whole idea was, you know,

1415
01:39:28.840 --> 01:39:34.199
<v Speaker 5>just because you passed the assessment and selection, you were

1416
01:39:34.239 --> 01:39:38.520
<v Speaker 5>still not a full fledged member of the unit until

1417
01:39:38.560 --> 01:39:40.680
<v Speaker 5>you successfully completed OTC.

1418
01:39:44.960 --> 01:39:45.600
<v Speaker 1>Solly, thank you.

1419
01:39:47.760 --> 01:39:51.560
<v Speaker 6>Would a better quality of soldier be produced by the

1420
01:39:51.600 --> 01:39:55.600
<v Speaker 6>Delta selection if they incorporated jungle training like the SAS

1421
01:39:55.640 --> 01:39:56.840
<v Speaker 6>into their selection.

1422
01:39:58.960 --> 01:40:03.359
<v Speaker 5>Well that that was a a hard thing to contend

1423
01:40:03.399 --> 01:40:09.479
<v Speaker 5>with because you know, as we looked at the SAS selection,

1424
01:40:10.439 --> 01:40:15.720
<v Speaker 5>there are different phases to include a jungle phase and

1425
01:40:15.840 --> 01:40:21.439
<v Speaker 5>other phases. So we decided, Charlie Beckworth decided we did

1426
01:40:21.520 --> 01:40:27.720
<v Speaker 5>not need that in Delta because our mission was not to.

1427
01:40:27.600 --> 01:40:31.520
<v Speaker 4>Be as broad as the SAS mission is.

1428
01:40:32.840 --> 01:40:35.840
<v Speaker 5>Even though we might have to operate in the jungle

1429
01:40:35.920 --> 01:40:41.439
<v Speaker 5>or whatever, but our basic mission was counter terrorism and

1430
01:40:41.479 --> 01:40:45.079
<v Speaker 5>the basic premise was that for the most part, we're

1431
01:40:45.079 --> 01:40:45.560
<v Speaker 5>going to do.

1432
01:40:45.560 --> 01:40:48.439
<v Speaker 4>That in urban areas.

1433
01:40:49.000 --> 01:40:56.319
<v Speaker 5>And even with what the events in Afghanistan and Iraq

1434
01:40:57.960 --> 01:41:04.640
<v Speaker 5>in Suria, when they're doing their operations, for the most part,

1435
01:41:04.680 --> 01:41:12.760
<v Speaker 5>they're still conducting them in urban areas. So why then

1436
01:41:13.039 --> 01:41:16.920
<v Speaker 5>did we need those jungle skills? Not to question anything

1437
01:41:17.079 --> 01:41:20.520
<v Speaker 5>SAS was doing, but their purview is totally different.

1438
01:41:23.840 --> 01:41:25.239
<v Speaker 1>M Corbyn, thank you.

1439
01:41:25.319 --> 01:41:29.359
<v Speaker 6>What did discovering the in TACU code impress upon you?

1440
01:41:34.720 --> 01:41:42.600
<v Speaker 5>Well, when I came across it, it verified It's something

1441
01:41:42.680 --> 01:41:48.000
<v Speaker 5>that I had already believed in for years, that is

1442
01:41:48.520 --> 01:41:55.000
<v Speaker 5>being humble, helping others and understanding that once you open

1443
01:41:55.039 --> 01:41:58.640
<v Speaker 5>your mouth, those words never go away. So you better

1444
01:41:58.680 --> 01:42:01.600
<v Speaker 5>watch what the hell you say, you better stand behind

1445
01:42:01.680 --> 01:42:04.279
<v Speaker 5>what you say, and you better mean what you say.

1446
01:42:05.399 --> 01:42:08.680
<v Speaker 5>And so I've lived by that code for a long

1447
01:42:08.680 --> 01:42:09.399
<v Speaker 5>period of time.

1448
01:42:09.800 --> 01:42:14.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Zachary mccoyth, thank you very much. Really appreciate it.

1449
01:42:15.119 --> 01:42:17.159
<v Speaker 1>Let's raise a glass to those who aren't here.

1450
01:42:17.000 --> 01:42:19.600
<v Speaker 6>But paid the ultimate sacrice so we could be Thank

1451
01:42:19.600 --> 01:42:26.119
<v Speaker 6>you guys. Great episode of great show USMC. So thanks,

1452
01:42:26.600 --> 01:42:29.359
<v Speaker 6>Thanks Zachary, Joe's got you. Is it true that Dick

1453
01:42:29.439 --> 01:42:31.960
<v Speaker 6>Metali has played a big part in helping back with

1454
01:42:32.119 --> 01:42:34.840
<v Speaker 6>train and shape the first Helta operators.

1455
01:42:37.840 --> 01:42:41.399
<v Speaker 5>With all due respect to Dick, who was a great friend,

1456
01:42:41.800 --> 01:42:46.560
<v Speaker 5>he did not, okay. He was brought in basically as

1457
01:42:46.680 --> 01:42:53.000
<v Speaker 5>a consultant into the off section of Dilton.

1458
01:42:54.600 --> 01:42:57.199
<v Speaker 4>The way he was used, for the most part.

1459
01:42:58.800 --> 01:43:03.640
<v Speaker 5>Was because of his charisma to do a lot of

1460
01:43:03.680 --> 01:43:09.359
<v Speaker 5>briefings to senior officers and two different organizations. Because he would,

1461
01:43:09.560 --> 01:43:13.119
<v Speaker 5>you know, walk into a room and because of his

1462
01:43:13.279 --> 01:43:19.239
<v Speaker 5>charisma and because of what had been written about him previously,

1463
01:43:20.119 --> 01:43:24.880
<v Speaker 5>everybody would just nod their head in agreement. And I

1464
01:43:25.000 --> 01:43:27.840
<v Speaker 5>used to tease him, I said, you know, you're like

1465
01:43:27.920 --> 01:43:31.319
<v Speaker 5>Miss America walking into a room, you know, and giving

1466
01:43:31.359 --> 01:43:34.960
<v Speaker 5>a briefing. All the males are going like this, not

1467
01:43:35.119 --> 01:43:37.960
<v Speaker 5>because they agree with her, but they're scanning her up

1468
01:43:38.000 --> 01:43:39.159
<v Speaker 5>and out, you know.

1469
01:43:39.640 --> 01:43:43.239
<v Speaker 4>And he laughed, and it was a standing joke.

1470
01:43:44.359 --> 01:43:45.000
<v Speaker 1>Was there.

1471
01:43:45.039 --> 01:43:47.560
<v Speaker 6>We've just recently heard you know sort of about the

1472
01:43:47.640 --> 01:43:54.079
<v Speaker 6>tension between back With and the Blue Light guys. Were

1473
01:43:54.079 --> 01:43:56.920
<v Speaker 6>you kind of involved? Were you around that when it happened?

1474
01:43:58.039 --> 01:43:58.319
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

1475
01:43:58.319 --> 01:44:04.079
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, And you know, to be blunt and candid about it.

1476
01:44:07.000 --> 01:44:10.319
<v Speaker 5>What the Blue Light people were made to do was

1477
01:44:10.359 --> 01:44:14.479
<v Speaker 5>once they were told that they had to disband, is

1478
01:44:15.039 --> 01:44:20.319
<v Speaker 5>they were forced to come to a briefing where Beckwith

1479
01:44:20.439 --> 01:44:23.319
<v Speaker 5>was going to try and recruit them for Delta Game.

1480
01:44:24.920 --> 01:44:28.039
<v Speaker 5>So they came in with a chip on their shoulder

1481
01:44:28.920 --> 01:44:33.359
<v Speaker 5>because they had believed that they had an opportunity to

1482
01:44:33.399 --> 01:44:39.119
<v Speaker 5>gain the CT mission. Frankly, that was not true, okay,

1483
01:44:39.880 --> 01:44:41.920
<v Speaker 5>And I can give you all kinds of evidence to

1484
01:44:43.039 --> 01:44:46.119
<v Speaker 5>prove what I'm saying, but that's not the point. The

1485
01:44:46.159 --> 01:44:48.399
<v Speaker 5>point is they came in with a chip on their shoulder.

1486
01:44:49.720 --> 01:44:52.920
<v Speaker 5>The second point is that Beckwith blew the damn briefing.

1487
01:44:53.840 --> 01:44:54.119
<v Speaker 4>Okay.

1488
01:44:54.640 --> 01:44:57.880
<v Speaker 5>He could not answer their questions. One of their basic

1489
01:44:58.000 --> 01:45:01.600
<v Speaker 5>questions was, why should would we go through your assessment

1490
01:45:01.640 --> 01:45:07.279
<v Speaker 5>and selection. We're Vietnam veterans, We've done this. Some of

1491
01:45:07.359 --> 01:45:11.159
<v Speaker 5>us went into the Santi raid, We've done that, and

1492
01:45:11.239 --> 01:45:15.199
<v Speaker 5>on and on and beck we just could not answer

1493
01:45:15.239 --> 01:45:20.079
<v Speaker 5>their questions in an understandable fashion.

1494
01:45:22.239 --> 01:45:26.520
<v Speaker 6>So it's kind of a two way issue, absolutely, you know.

1495
01:45:27.439 --> 01:45:30.319
<v Speaker 4>And you know, unfortunately.

1496
01:45:31.079 --> 01:45:33.840
<v Speaker 5>I lost some lifelong friends who were on blue light

1497
01:45:34.560 --> 01:45:36.680
<v Speaker 5>that would never talk to me after that.

1498
01:45:36.680 --> 01:45:42.640
<v Speaker 1>That's terrible. Yeah, it's unfortunate that, Adam, thank you very much.

1499
01:45:43.439 --> 01:45:45.760
<v Speaker 6>My first time seeing Wade was seeing him testify to

1500
01:45:45.840 --> 01:45:49.640
<v Speaker 6>Congress about the ATS raid on Waco. Can I ask

1501
01:45:50.439 --> 01:45:53.319
<v Speaker 6>how cooperative the ATF were with it with his work?

1502
01:45:57.600 --> 01:45:59.880
<v Speaker 4>Frankly, after we did the report.

1503
01:46:01.399 --> 01:46:04.039
<v Speaker 5>I'll tell a story and I'll name a name, Okay,

1504
01:46:04.600 --> 01:46:09.600
<v Speaker 5>Jerry Petrelli was one of the leaders of that operation.

1505
01:46:10.439 --> 01:46:11.239
<v Speaker 4>He was the.

1506
01:46:11.199 --> 01:46:15.399
<v Speaker 5>Resident agent in Albuquerque, New Mexico at the time the

1507
01:46:15.479 --> 01:46:21.079
<v Speaker 5>raid occurred, and because I lived in Albuquerque, I was

1508
01:46:21.119 --> 01:46:26.640
<v Speaker 5>able to meet Petrelli later on, and you know when

1509
01:46:26.680 --> 01:46:28.720
<v Speaker 5>we met, he called me a whole bunch of names,

1510
01:46:28.760 --> 01:46:30.920
<v Speaker 5>and he said, you son of a bitch. You know,

1511
01:46:31.319 --> 01:46:36.520
<v Speaker 5>I read your report well with a microscope, and he said,

1512
01:46:36.560 --> 01:46:43.079
<v Speaker 5>you son of a bitch. You were right, and we

1513
01:46:43.159 --> 01:46:48.319
<v Speaker 5>became good friends after that. The unfortunate thing with AHTF

1514
01:46:48.680 --> 01:46:54.800
<v Speaker 5>was that the two leaders, Winoski out of Houston and

1515
01:46:57.640 --> 01:47:01.079
<v Speaker 5>Sara bend his ashach to Houston.

1516
01:47:01.479 --> 01:47:03.600
<v Speaker 4>Were not good leaders.

1517
01:47:05.000 --> 01:47:12.079
<v Speaker 5>Very inexperienced, and then in the aftermath they should have

1518
01:47:12.119 --> 01:47:15.800
<v Speaker 5>been taken to court because they altered evidence for no

1519
01:47:15.880 --> 01:47:20.159
<v Speaker 5>good reason whatsoever. What they did was they altered the

1520
01:47:20.279 --> 01:47:25.800
<v Speaker 5>operations plan again for no good reason, because that operations

1521
01:47:25.880 --> 01:47:31.520
<v Speaker 5>plan was not going to make what they said, what

1522
01:47:31.600 --> 01:47:32.239
<v Speaker 5>they tried to.

1523
01:47:32.239 --> 01:47:35.640
<v Speaker 4>Do fail or do better, you know.

1524
01:47:37.159 --> 01:47:46.319
<v Speaker 5>But anyway, So, but everybody else on that ATF effort

1525
01:47:47.359 --> 01:47:48.239
<v Speaker 5>gave it their best.

1526
01:47:48.319 --> 01:47:51.319
<v Speaker 4>And I mean there were some true heroes there. You know.

1527
01:47:52.319 --> 01:47:59.199
<v Speaker 5>There's a video which shows a female agent with an

1528
01:47:59.399 --> 01:48:04.119
<v Speaker 5>arm in her her hand and the army is raised,

1529
01:48:04.760 --> 01:48:11.239
<v Speaker 5>and she's compressing a wound that were the other the

1530
01:48:11.279 --> 01:48:14.600
<v Speaker 5>wounded agent would have bled to death, and she held

1531
01:48:14.640 --> 01:48:19.399
<v Speaker 5>it on him, couldn't find a tourniquet for almost an hour.

1532
01:48:19.760 --> 01:48:21.960
<v Speaker 4>Wow. Yeah, you know.

1533
01:48:23.920 --> 01:48:29.079
<v Speaker 5>And there was a former Loraine Kenny, who was a

1534
01:48:29.119 --> 01:48:36.000
<v Speaker 5>lieutenant and who had fallen between the two buildings and

1535
01:48:36.159 --> 01:48:40.680
<v Speaker 5>lay there with broken bon bones and wounds for the

1536
01:48:40.800 --> 01:48:44.479
<v Speaker 5>number of hours it took to call the truth. And

1537
01:48:44.600 --> 01:48:47.560
<v Speaker 5>I mean Kenny King, I believe it was his name.

1538
01:48:48.800 --> 01:48:57.520
<v Speaker 5>But you know, I had nothing but good thing to

1539
01:48:57.560 --> 01:48:59.600
<v Speaker 5>say about the ATF agents.

1540
01:49:00.319 --> 01:49:04.279
<v Speaker 4>It was their leadership that I have questions about.

1541
01:49:04.960 --> 01:49:06.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, uh.

1542
01:49:06.520 --> 01:49:10.800
<v Speaker 6>And then last one here Green, thank you very much. Hey, Way,

1543
01:49:11.000 --> 01:49:14.279
<v Speaker 6>just curious, despite Delta not having a jungle phase, does

1544
01:49:14.279 --> 01:49:17.880
<v Speaker 6>that mean they don't train for jungle SR patrol skills

1545
01:49:17.960 --> 01:49:20.680
<v Speaker 6>during or after uh, during or after OTC?

1546
01:49:24.159 --> 01:49:28.159
<v Speaker 5>I don't, you know, candidly, I don't know what they're

1547
01:49:28.159 --> 01:49:29.800
<v Speaker 5>doing or not doing today.

1548
01:49:30.680 --> 01:49:31.800
<v Speaker 4>I don't have a need to know.

1549
01:49:32.760 --> 01:49:37.279
<v Speaker 5>All I know is that in preparation for that lotion thing,

1550
01:49:37.960 --> 01:49:39.600
<v Speaker 5>we did do some jungle training.

1551
01:49:41.520 --> 01:49:42.359
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1552
01:49:42.520 --> 01:49:44.840
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, it's it seems like and again I don't know

1553
01:49:44.880 --> 01:49:46.600
<v Speaker 6>what they do either, but it seems like it could

1554
01:49:46.600 --> 01:49:50.039
<v Speaker 6>be one of those more uh, you know, mission based

1555
01:49:50.199 --> 01:49:54.399
<v Speaker 6>type training efforts. Uh. Yeah, you know they're they're they're

1556
01:49:54.600 --> 01:49:57.359
<v Speaker 6>good at what they do, and you know, you take

1557
01:49:57.399 --> 01:50:00.720
<v Speaker 6>what they do and apply it to different environments. You know,

1558
01:50:00.720 --> 01:50:05.880
<v Speaker 6>it's the environmental challenges that they need to learn to overcome. Right, Gee,

1559
01:50:05.920 --> 01:50:06.920
<v Speaker 6>was there anything on Patreon?

1560
01:50:07.640 --> 01:50:07.960
<v Speaker 4>Okay?

1561
01:50:08.039 --> 01:50:13.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so Waite, thank you so much for spending your

1562
01:50:13.359 --> 01:50:16.039
<v Speaker 2>evening with us and telling us your story and telling

1563
01:50:16.079 --> 01:50:17.960
<v Speaker 2>us about the in Toku code.

1564
01:50:20.159 --> 01:50:23.640
<v Speaker 5>Well, I hope you've enjoyed it, and more so, I

1565
01:50:24.079 --> 01:50:27.960
<v Speaker 5>hope your audience enjoyed at all.

1566
01:50:28.119 --> 01:50:30.239
<v Speaker 2>It was terrific any final thoughts you want to leave

1567
01:50:30.279 --> 01:50:32.560
<v Speaker 2>us with before we get going, anything that you wish

1568
01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I had asked that I didn't.

1569
01:50:35.239 --> 01:50:40.920
<v Speaker 5>No, Well, the only thing I hope is that the

1570
01:50:41.039 --> 01:50:46.079
<v Speaker 5>readers will walk away saying we need to do better

1571
01:50:46.199 --> 01:50:52.840
<v Speaker 5>as individuals in terms of providing military, national, or public

1572
01:50:52.880 --> 01:50:57.399
<v Speaker 5>service to our nation. This is a great nation, God

1573
01:50:57.439 --> 01:51:02.319
<v Speaker 5>bless America. We need to get with the program and

1574
01:51:02.399 --> 01:51:05.039
<v Speaker 5>not be about ourselves.

1575
01:51:06.319 --> 01:51:08.319
<v Speaker 2>I hope people will go and pick up the INTKU

1576
01:51:08.399 --> 01:51:11.960
<v Speaker 2>codes out now and we will be back on Friday

1577
01:51:12.279 --> 01:51:15.880
<v Speaker 2>with I believe Andrew Bragg, eighty second airborne veteran who

1578
01:51:15.920 --> 01:51:17.760
<v Speaker 2>served overseas in Afghanistan.

1579
01:51:19.600 --> 01:51:20.159
<v Speaker 1>And that's it.

1580
01:51:20.199 --> 01:51:22.359
<v Speaker 2>That's for it for tonight, Wade, thank you very much

1581
01:51:22.359 --> 01:51:23.680
<v Speaker 2>for joining us.

1582
01:51:24.159 --> 01:51:25.760
<v Speaker 4>Okay, thank you, gentlemen.

1583
01:51:26.520 --> 01:51:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Have a great night, such a pleasure. Thank you.

1584
01:51:29.920 --> 01:51:31.399
<v Speaker 4>Okay, bye bye