WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:04.440 Oh hey, it's yesterday's coffee, that's now today's iced coffee. 2 00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:09.359 Ali warred back with a tender, sloppy, heartfelt episode of Ologies. 3 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:12.359 Oh kissing, oh smoochin, suck and face? 4 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:13.080 Who? 5 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:14.439 Why? For how long? 6 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:17.320 How? That's right? This week we're gonna go all the 7 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.800 way to first base. But before we toss me boss, 8 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:21.320 let's say some thank you to all the folks at 9 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:24.280 patreon dot com slash Ologies for supporting the show since 10 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:27.600 literally day one, for being our backbone. And also for 11 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.879 all the folks wearing your Ologies hats and backpacks and 12 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:33.679 shirts and drinking cold coffee out of Ology smunks. And 13 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:36.000 for all the folks who tell friends and tweet and 14 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:39.039 graham about the podcast and hit subscribe, give it a 15 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:41.560 rating on iTunes, keeping it up in the charts, and 16 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:44.840 especially y'all who review. You know, I creep them like 17 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:47.640 a crush. Each week I read you a fresh one, 18 00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:50.679 such as this one from old zeb twenty two, who says, 19 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:52.840 this is the podcast I suggest to my friends and 20 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:55.600 family more than any other. Dad word is the fun, loving, 21 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:59.320 foul mouthed, bad defending nerdy friend your mother warned you 22 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.399 about so casually mentions that she has several dead birds 23 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:04.560 in her freezer, which I hope she's using for good 24 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:06.400 and not to do some terrible prank on a neighbor. 25 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:08.879 Keep up the great work, stay safe, keep them coming. 26 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:11.799 I would never waste dead birds like that, But thank you, 27 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.560 old Zeb, I appreciate it. Thank you to everyone who's 28 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:18.480 spreading the show around via word of mouth. Speaking of mouse, 29 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:21.840 let's jump right into them. Filmatology. It's a real word. 30 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:25.359 It's the study of kissing. It comes from philimma, meaning 31 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:28.319 a kiss in the Greek tongue. And as soon as 32 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:31.439 I saw this word years ago, I just longed. 33 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:32.680 To probe the topic. 34 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:36.040 So I searched scientific journals just for the word kissing, 35 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:39.359 and then I found several studies done by a professor 36 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:43.359 and an anthropologist at Oxford in the UK. Hot diggity boy, howdy, 37 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:45.959 this dude was legit. He got a bachelor's and a 38 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:50.079 master's in psychology and philosophy from Oxford University, a PhD 39 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:54.439 in psychology on the social dynamics of Salata baboons. He's 40 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:57.879 a professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Oxford. 41 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:00.879 He's been an author on over four hundred articles in 42 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.200 scientific journals, including such hits like What's in a Kiss? 43 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:08.280 The Effect of Romantic kissing on mate desirability, and examining 44 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:11.719 the possible functions of kissing in romantic relationships. And if 45 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:14.159 you've ever heard the notion that humans can only have 46 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:17.560 about one hundred and fifty stable friendships, that's all him. 47 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:20.680 It's called Dunbar's number. He explained it casually as quote 48 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.000 the number of people you would not feel embarrassed about 49 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.159 joining uninvited for a drink if you happen to bump 50 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:25.879 into them in a bar. 51 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:26.560 Oh. 52 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:28.120 I wanted to be one of his one fifty and 53 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.719 interview him so much, so I emailed him and he 54 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:34.479 wrote back saying no, but more politely, a quick two 55 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:36.840 sentence rejection. I'm afraid I'm just too tied up with 56 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.280 other commitments of the moment. My apologies. So I wrote 57 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:42.479 back with literally a pretty please in the subject line. 58 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:46.240 He wrote back, a shimmering letter just said yes, fine 59 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.680 by me. I literally gasped. I screamed when I got it. 60 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:52.439 So we hopped on to Skype to record, and in 61 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.479 remote calls we speak via Skype that I have theologists 62 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:58.000 record into their voice memos on their phone and then 63 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:00.439 we cut them together for better sound quality, a little 64 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:03.879 pro trick I learned from the illusionists Helen Zealzman. But 65 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:06.919 we have some difficulty. I can maybe just record you 66 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:11.439 straight from my speakers and we will worry about it 67 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:11.960 in post. 68 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.919 We'll fix it in post. But we gave it a 69 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:17.439 good try. 70 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:20.560 I was terrified already of this interview. So much at stake, 71 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:23.680 such a well regarded dude. Will I botch it? How 72 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:25.599 does the rest of it go? Or do we bond 73 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:29.199 immediately and have a jolly time talking about smooches and 74 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:33.840 first kisses, and why people kiss, and the microbiome and 75 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:37.800 social relationships, kissing in other animals, why we fall in 76 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:41.240 love with some people and not others, the notion of soulmates, 77 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:45.439 and doing research in nightclubs. So swipe on, somelip bomb, 78 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:48.960 pucker your ears for the wit and the wisdom of anthropologist, 79 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:56.120 scholar and gentlemen Oxford philharmatologist, Doctor robin Ian McDonald dunbar. 80 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:15.240 Let's do it. 81 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:18.040 Okay, good, okay, First off, Hi, thanks for. 82 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:23.399 Being here, and this is all edited, so don't worry. 83 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:26.399 We'll cut out anything anything textical. 84 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:28.240 That's anything sensible and leave the rubbish. 85 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.839 Yeah, yes, exactly, only the rubbish. That's what we're going for. 86 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:34.639 And so now I'm not sure if this is a 87 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:39.959 word that gets used often, but you aren't a filmatologist, 88 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:43.399 would that be correct a person who studies kissing. 89 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:51.759 Well, I wouldn't have said that quice. But I've never 90 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:52.920 heard the word before. 91 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.240 It's a real word. It's an actual word. A filmatologist. Yeah, 92 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.639 filmatology is the study of kissing. And I don't know 93 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:01.879 if you know, but you are one of the world 94 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:05.800 experts in it. Literally, I've been looking for an expert 95 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:08.560 in this to do this ology for like years and 96 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:10.399 you're you're the dude. 97 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:14.519 We have done a little bit, but it's a tiny, tiny, 98 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:17.000 tiny fraction of what we spend. 99 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:22.360 Our lives really doing. Honest, go well, milood. 100 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:26.720 As they say in criminal courts to the judge, it 101 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:27.879 wasn't me, midlud. 102 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:32.160 I didn't do it again. Over four hundred papers authored, 103 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:35.399 written or edited more than twenty books, including Thinking Big, 104 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.279 How the Evolution of Social Life Changed the Human Mind, 105 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.959 The Science of Love, and the Science of Love and Betrayal. 106 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:46.879 Oh the British. They all have honorary doctorates in self deprecation. Well, 107 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:48.920 you've done it more than anyone else, so I'm going 108 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:51.560 to ask you what you know about it. So, and 109 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.800 you're an author, you're an evolutionary biologist, you're an anthropologist, 110 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.920 you have so many credits. How did you get interested 111 00:05:59.959 --> 00:06:02.000 in science and interested in behavior? 112 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:08.839 I guess in a way, this sort of, as much 113 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:11.120 as anything, goes back to the fact that I grew 114 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:15.000 up in East Africa, and so you're kind of immersed 115 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:20.399 in many different cultures there, and in the end it 116 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:26.079 kind of drew me off into initially psychology, and then 117 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:32.680 I ended up studying primates in Africa again, but monkeys mainly, 118 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:37.199 and spending an awful lot of time studying them before I, 119 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:41.600 twenty years or so later, ended up back again studying 120 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:43.600 humans properly for the first time. 121 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:48.000 Was it at all a relief to start studying the 122 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:50.160 behavior of humans because you could ask them questions? 123 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:51.759 Or was it just more complicated? 124 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:54.959 It was complete desperation. 125 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:01.920 Because I would have carried on studying monkeys and antelope, 126 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.560 which we've been studying as well, but there was no 127 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:09.759 funding available for anything like that in Britain during the 128 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:15.639 nineteen eighties, and I ended up studying humans because they 129 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.959 were there on the street and you could do. 130 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:20.920 A lot, a lot of the kind things. 131 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:24.480 You could ask the same kinds of questions we'd been 132 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:29.720 asking about primate behavior, you could ask of humans too. 133 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.279 You know, why do they choose this person to make live? 134 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:35.920 Why do they you know, why do they invest in 135 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:38.079 their children? And the way they do? All these kind 136 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.959 of questions we ask of monkeys and apes when we 137 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:42.560 study them. 138 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.920 You can kind of do on the street and it 139 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.319 was free. You didn't need a big grant to do it. 140 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:55.199 And people, you know, you could ask them questions because 141 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:59.319 you know they obviously were people. You could give them 142 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:03.399 surveys to fill in as well as well as observe them. 143 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:07.879 And what led you to want to study social relationships? 144 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:10.759 Because you're known for the Dunbar number, You're known for 145 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:12.800 a book The Science of Love? 146 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:15.160 Like, what is it about social relationships? 147 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:16.399 You know nothing about love? 148 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.319 You got to know something if you're a scientist about it. 149 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:25.160 My boy or not, you were a world expert in this. 150 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.319 I mean I guess that that must put a lot 151 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:30.079 of pressure on you in relationships. If you are an 152 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:30.879 expert in them. 153 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.960 Tell me about it, all right? 154 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:36.679 His Wikipedia page notes that he's been married at least once, 155 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:39.399 but we were only a few minutes in. It was 156 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.799 too early to pry. But he's charming and affable. I imagine that, 157 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:46.759 plus his research history, I bet that's a hit in 158 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:47.840 social situations. 159 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:54.399 Okay, So yes, I suppose all the way through. Ever 160 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.879 since I first studied anything in the world, even before 161 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:02.799 I started by Pah, what I was interested in was 162 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:08.480 social evolution. How do different society, different animal societies, you. 163 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:09.120 Know, come to be? 164 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:13.559 And why did one species have one kind of society 165 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:16.000 and other species have another kind of society. So that's 166 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.600 a kind of rather a big question because you have 167 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.279 to study practically everything about them, their ecology, their genetics, 168 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.679 their evolutionary hastens on. And then that transfers very easily 169 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:33.159 across to humans because obviously different cultures have different societies. 170 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.399 You know, their culture is their society if you. 171 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.279 Like, and you know you can ask meaningful questions about 172 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:44.080 why one group living in one area has gone down 173 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:47.279 one particular road, has the kind of you know, perhaps 174 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:51.840 their polygamists, and another group living somewhere else and monogamists, 175 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:53.360 or those kinds of questions. 176 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:58.480 Now you've studied monkeys, and you've studied apes including humans. 177 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:01.240 Do other animals kiss on the mouth? 178 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.720 Yeah, actually some of the other mammals in fact do. 179 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:10.200 I mean, it's not really common in the way it 180 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:14.440 is in humans, or even to some extent the way 181 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.759 it happens in some of the monkeys snapes where they 182 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:20.639 kind of do a kind of lip to lip. 183 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:22.600 Kissing, and particularly with babies. 184 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:28.679 I think you know, mother monkeys mouths their babies often 185 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:32.240 and frequently, and then you know in some species they 186 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:35.960 will feed them titbits that they've been eating, you know, 187 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:39.039 mouth to mouth, So you can kind of see where 188 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:41.759 kissing came from if you like. 189 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:44.360 It's easy to see. But I mean, nobody. 190 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:49.679 Does this stuff to the quantity and quality of humans. 191 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:50.720 I want to kiss you. 192 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:55.399 Why do you think humans have a slobber on each other? 193 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:04.919 This is almost the big evolutionary question that remains unanswered. 194 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:10.039 Is all clear? There are various suggestions one can make. 195 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:16.679 One is it's clearly very kind of erotic if you like, 196 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:19.440 it's very arousing, and the lips have a lot of 197 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.480 brain tissue devoted to them, sensory brain tissues devoted to 198 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:28.440 the lips, you know, disproportionately so put it this way, 199 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:33.600 monkeys and apes are very tactile. They do a lot 200 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:38.080 of cuddling and stroking and if you like, pesting, all 201 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:41.360 those kind of things we do, and a lot of 202 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.799 this sort of social grooming and social grooming triggers the 203 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:47.600 release of endorphins in the brain, which kind of make 204 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:53.080 you feel very relaxed and happy, contented with the world. 205 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:55.919 It's very nineteen sixties hippie ish, you know. 206 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:59.639 Endless sun, chill vibes, hot bodies. 207 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:05.120 The world is a beautiful place and very trusting as 208 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:06.879 a person you're doing. 209 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:08.240 This with or who's doing it too. 210 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:14.360 And these involve a very special set of neurons which 211 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.399 only respond to light, slow stroking of the skin. And 212 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:21.759 we have those neurons too. They're known as the sea 213 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:27.440 tactile neurons. They don't do anything else. They're not involved 214 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:30.759 in pain or anything, you know, sensing pain or anything 215 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.720 like that. We respond exactly the same way. So that's 216 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:38.320 why in our closer relationships we're very tactile. You know, 217 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:42.080 it's an awful lot of cuddling and petting. And I 218 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:44.960 don't mean this in a kind of social context. I 219 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.440 mean just you know, when you're talking to your good friends. 220 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:48.679 You know, there's a. 221 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.919 Tap on the shoulder and the arm around the shoulder 222 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:53.080 and all this kind of thing that goes on. 223 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.960 You know, we're very tactile in that sense, even though 224 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:59.360 we don't really think about it. But on the other hand, 225 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.279 is the because it's a very intimate thing, as it 226 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:05.600 is in monkeys' names, you don't do it with everybody. 227 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:08.759 This is why, you know, when you're caught in a 228 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:13.480 crowded lift, you feel very uncomfortable because all these people 229 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.679 you know, in very close physical contact with you, and 230 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:21.200 normally you do only allow your nearest and dearest family 231 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:24.799 and friends to be in that close physical contact, you know, 232 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:27.879 So we are very ambivalent about it for the very 233 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:33.399 reason that touch is very kind of you know, indicative 234 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:37.000 of both close relationships and also spilling over from that 235 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:43.279 you know, quickly gets exploited in courtship and sexual relationships 236 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:48.960 between partners. Right, so the lips clearly play a major 237 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:54.919 role in that. That said, one of the other things 238 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:59.600 that happens during kissing in particular, is the exchange of 239 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.080 huge quantities of. 240 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:04.840 Bacteria. 241 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:10.159 Right now, a ten minute kiss, I forget the exact amount, 242 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:13.000 but it results in the exchange is something like ten 243 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:17.039 million bacteria from one body. 244 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:17.679 To the next. 245 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.000 So a twenty fourteen study out of Amsterdam revealed that 246 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:26.559 one ten second French kiss can transfer eighty million microbes 247 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.320 into your partner's mouth. That is, the entire population of 248 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:34.679 New York City cramming into your mouth every second of 249 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:35.279 a kiss. 250 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.919 That's love, baby. If he was interested in me, what 251 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:40.440 my germs? He just craved my germ. 252 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.679 Now this is quite useful because actually it tells an 253 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:51.120 awful lot about the other person. So we've both got bacteria, 254 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:56.440 the microbiotic sort of elements from the other person being exchanged. 255 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:58.559 But also you're getting a. 256 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.440 Lot of their the saliva and stuff, a lot of 257 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:04.799 the enzymes and other bits and pieces that the body 258 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:11.879 produced them, particularly immune systems. So your personal smell, I 259 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.759 hate to raise this tricky issue at this junker, but 260 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:20.799 your personal smell and taste are directly determined by the 261 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:25.159 same genes, same set of genes that determine your immune system. 262 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:29.559 Really, so we're using our tongues and our snoops to 263 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:33.679 gather intimate intel about a person's immune system. You thought 264 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.559 Google was sneaky? Who the nose is sneakier, so's the tongue. 265 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:41.840 And now doctor Dunbar addresses some Western flimflam about different 266 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:45.480 greetings such as the kunic greeting of Inuit folks and 267 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:48.120 the malory greeting the Hongi, among others. 268 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:50.480 It's a complete myth that they're rubbing noses. 269 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:52.720 What you do is you put your nose side by 270 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:55.360 side or just in front of somebody else's and you 271 00:15:55.559 --> 00:16:00.200 breathe in slowly and deeply, And as the Maori is 272 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:04.279 put it, this is you're breathing in their spirit, right, 273 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:05.919 so you're actually breathing. 274 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:07.120 In their smell. 275 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.399 And by the same extension, when you kiss folk, you're 276 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:16.759 you're tasting their same immune sysm. You're actually checking out 277 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:19.440 who they are and whether you like them or not. 278 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:22.679 And the people you like tend to be people who 279 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:26.720 have a different set of immune genes to the ones 280 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:31.120 that you have. Right, Normally, when you choose some a mate, 281 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:36.159 a romantic partner, you choose somebody who's kind of ticks 282 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:40.080 as many boxes as possible for similarity to you, looks 283 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:42.799 like you, and feels like you, as it were, because 284 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.080 what you're trying to do is to find the same 285 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:49.919 set of genes so you don't lose these beautiful genes 286 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:50.279 that you. 287 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:52.840 Can you've been handed on by your parent. 288 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:55.440 What a lot of species do is spend a lot 289 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:59.320 of effort and time looking for people who have similar, 290 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.440 not identify, but very similar genes to them. So that 291 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.400 means they're kind of bringing that same family set back 292 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:12.400 together again, except for immune system genes, because what ideally 293 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:17.960 you want in your beautiful bouncing babies is as broad 294 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.039 a set of immunities as possible. 295 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.559 So if you pick the same ones, you know, they're only. 296 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:31.559 Acquiring immunities to half the number of diseases and bacteria stuff. 297 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:32.480 It's possible. 298 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.920 Whereas if you pick sort of somebody who's really quite different, 299 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.559 you're giving them a much better chance in life. 300 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:44.240 So if someone rejects you, not necessarily, but just if 301 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.720 someone rejects a person, it might just be that your 302 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.960 immune systems are too similar. 303 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:51.640 Can you take that? Is that like a way to 304 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:52.920 take heartbreak? Construct? 305 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:55.960 Yes? Yes, they're family, they're family. 306 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.240 Has any of this research that you've done, I know, 307 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:03.640 is it difficult not to apply it to your own 308 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:05.119 life the lives of people that you know? 309 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:05.519 Oh? 310 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.920 I think if you work on human behavior. 311 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:12.759 You just inevitably spend most of your time sitting at 312 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:14.960 the back of the pub watching people. 313 00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:18.200 It's really difficult not to do that. 314 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.359 And it's such fun, you know, just see and even 315 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:25.759 you know, I mean, it's amazing if you read something 316 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.640 like Jane Austen's book, she is such an acute observer 317 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:35.640 of human behavior, it is unbelievable, you know, considering she 318 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:36.759 was writing. 319 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:40.000 A very narrow. 320 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:44.799 Social background, you know whatever, it was nearly three hundred 321 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.799 years ago, you know, I mean, her observations of the 322 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:53.759 foibles of human behavior, particularly in the mating arena, like 323 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:59.519 just electric. And this is what makes the films that, 324 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:01.960 you know, the kind of costumed dramas that they do 325 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:06.240 of her novels so successful. You know, they're just such 326 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:10.680 acute observations on you know, the little things that bother 327 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.359 people about relationships. 328 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:14.240 She was an anthropologist. 329 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:18.720 I guess she has to rank as before anybody even 330 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:20.319 thought of the name anthropology. 331 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.759 She has to rank as the founding mother. 332 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:28.559 I may have lost my heart, but not my self control. 333 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:30.559 And now, if you're in the pub and you see 334 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.880 people on a date, can you tell by the way 335 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:38.759 they kiss whether or not they've got fireworks or if 336 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.319 you're watching like Love Island or something, I would. 337 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:45.240 Give it an eight strong kiss. It's very wet and volumptuous. 338 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:46.319 Oh god, not that. 339 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:48.720 The bachelor. 340 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:57.160 Yes and no, it's it's it's I think it's probably 341 00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.839 hard to tell. I mean, there are I mean this, 342 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:02.599 I mean it actually is really very hard to tell 343 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:09.640 because in many ways the two sexes behave quite differently. 344 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:12.839 In those sort of contexts. 345 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:18.119 So women are much more attentive when they're meeting even 346 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.039 just meeting a boy for the first time, and this 347 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:23.079 caused a lot of problems I think for boys, because 348 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:27.920 boys are not that great in terms of social skills really. 349 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:33.240 Signals the girls. Girls kind of have this way. 350 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.039 Of being very attentive to you, and you know, sort 351 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:40.519 of paying close attention when they're not really interested. 352 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:46.000 Straight sis, non binary, LGBTQ. If you have ever been 353 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.759 on a date and thought, wow, that one amazing and 354 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.759 then it goes through, well this might be because one 355 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.000 never knows how an ego is going to take rejection 356 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.359 in real time, so to play it safe, you might 357 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:03.039 just pretend to be interested and also more romantically and optimistically, 358 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:05.319 doctor Dunbar explains, you. 359 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:08.880 Know when you first meet somebody, you kind of don't 360 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:13.559 know really whether they're the right person or not. So 361 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:16.000 the last thing you want to do is kind of 362 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:18.200 put them off. You want to kind of keep them 363 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.880 interested a bit, or keep them interested long enough that 364 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:27.119 you can assess their inner self, as. 365 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.599 It were, and figure out whether. 366 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.720 They're the right person for you or not. Do they 367 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:34.880 see the world the way you do? Do they have 368 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:37.839 the same kind of more on political views as you, 369 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.279 They have the same interest Do they like the same music, 370 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.079 they have the same sense of humor? 371 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:43.880 All these kind of. 372 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:47.680 Boxes that you would like to have ticked, And it 373 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.160 takes a long time to find out all these details, 374 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:52.880 so you need to invest that a lot of time. 375 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:57.839 It turns out that the more boxes you have ticked 376 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:02.119 of that kind, the longer the relationship will last. Really 377 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:05.160 you want to yeah, you do want to make sure 378 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.079 you know you don't you don't want to take a 379 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:12.440 complete Duffers. 380 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:16.720 Yeah. I looked it up and Duffer is an incompetent 381 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.839 or stupid person. And I'm not British, but I don't 382 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:22.319 think that's a compliment or a box you want to 383 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:23.440 check in your dream date. 384 00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:28.440 So you need to check check out this person and 385 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.960 make sure that that they do check tick your boxes 386 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:35.160 with or at least as much as possible, because there's 387 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:37.319 no mister right or misright. 388 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:40.240 You know, there's no no such thing as perfection. 389 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:45.279 Well no, okay, maybe there is somewhere, but they're sort 390 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:48.240 of somewhere in the know. How many of us are 391 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.319 other on the planet now seven billion or something, so 392 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.519 that makes three and a half billion of each sex. 393 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:58.519 So somewhere in that three and a half billion there 394 00:22:58.599 --> 00:22:59.839 is mister or miss right. 395 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:05.599 You know you're never going to find them. You know, 396 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:07.960 there's many lifetimes of search. 397 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:14.440 Oh god, this is like a Morrissey song. It's romantic 398 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:15.759 but incredibly depressing. 399 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.880 So what you do is you do exactly as Jane 400 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:26.599 Norsten says. Right, we're all there looking for mister Darcy 401 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:31.000