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Speaker 1: Lippmann then began to draft the propaganda for the Allies

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during World War One. He thus assisted Woodrow Wilson in

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drawing up the fourteen points. Who did Woodrow Wilson work

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for the bankers? Read Colonel House, Colonel Edwin Mandel House,

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Woodrow Wilson, agent of the Banking League. At the same time,

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the budding science of Watsonian behaviorism provided Walter Lippmann with

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the principles to control and manipulate society. Now we enter

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the pre Burnet's stuff. Okay, this gets into Berne's manipulating

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public opinion. This is when Lippmann writes his landmark book

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Public Opinion. In nineteen twenty two, Lippmann claimed that psychologists

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had discovered the conditioned response behavior response stimulus response emotion

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is not attached to any idea per se. So now,

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in other words, man will just be treated as a

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beast that can be controlled by a stimulus response enter

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in Skinner, be of Skinner and the research of Pavlov.

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All of these guys. Research is being used by these

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people stimulus response. Stimulus response.

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Speaker 2: Now enters in.

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Speaker 1: Psychoanalysis and Freud the utilization of sexual imagery in advertising.

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Speaker 2: The utilization of.

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Speaker 1: Stimulus response to manipulate emotions, the utilization of Freudian.

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Speaker 2: Psychoanalysis.

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Speaker 1: All of this begins to be utilized at the behest,

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not just of psychological warfare for military purposes, but application

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to the domestic population through admin through TV, through mass media.

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Speaker 2: Thus we see Freudian principles.

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Speaker 1: We see all of these degenerate Skinnarian Pavlovian behaviorists Watsonian

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principles adopted, and the idea is, utilize these tricks to

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sell people on the new American ideology. We can thus

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utilize all these psyops tricks to debase the people to

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control their perception. Now we can reorient their whole perception

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of life, of the world, of religion, the church, America, Americanism.

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In other words, they had mastered social engineering by this

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time culture creation, creating toxic culture. Thus, by the time

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that he had set up Time Magazine and got it going,

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and by the time it became like the pre eminent

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tool of telling America what America is and how to

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believe in, how to think, Time Magazine basically became an

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empire which was able to control perception through the control

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of information. This allows later on other entities to rise

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to power like the Rand Corporation, other think tanks and

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NGOs which are also able to now contribute to the

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steering of the American ideology, redefining America as the Rank

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Corporation does, from being a production economy to a service economy,

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from creating a production based economy to a consumer coomer.

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Speaker 2: Culture consumer.

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Speaker 1: All created by Rand Corporation, even to the extent of

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how to convince people that they are atomistic individuals, and

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as an atomistic individual their life could be fulfilled by

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instantaneous pleasure principle being satiated through consumerism. It's all bs

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and it's all a trick, all of it. What does

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alex Obea memory covered Alexabea's Soldiers of Reason History of

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the Rancorporation says, if you reject or disagree with any

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of Americanism, then you reject the disagree with the Rand

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Corporation because the Rand Corporation is who created modern America.

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Speaker 2: So you've been sold bullshit. It's not true. It's a lie.

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Speaker 1: It's all based on pragmatism, atheism, liberalism, skinarianism, Pablovianism, Watsonianism, materialism,

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and it's all a lie. And they even say it

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doesn't matter if it's true or false, because it's used

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to control you. That's what the architects of this bullshit say.

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Speaker 2: Do you understand that.

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Speaker 1: The new gospel, the new ideology, would be the quote

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great liberal tradition.

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Speaker 2: This was something that Henry Loce made up.

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Speaker 1: So we got to give an embodiment to a tradition

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so that America can accept what America is, to redefine America,

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not that it wasn't already liberal, but to redefine it

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in such a way that it could be used as

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an engine of the wasp, skull and bones establishment.

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Speaker 2: What does he come up with? The liberal tradition? What

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is this? Let's let Henry Loose himself explain what this is.

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Speaker 1: Lu said, America is the supreme embodiment of the tradition.

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Garibaldi wrote that Abraham Lincoln spoke of our country as

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the apostle of liberty, the harbinger of progress. Note the

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religious language, the apostle of liberty.

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Speaker 2: This is loose.

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Speaker 1: Still, America is the great and magnetic hope and example

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for the world. It will draw to herself all who

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wish to make Europe at last beautiful and free, the

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last great effort being made to establish the liberal tradition

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that is political freedom, equality justice, freedom of thought, freedom

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of opinion, common decency, the rights of men and women.

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Excuse me, common decency, the rights of men and men.

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It is a very close battle. The odds are as

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far as we can see, about fifty to fifty. So

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he's saying this, I guess right before like World War two. Right,

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So basically it's just saying that America is the only

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hope for the world. The American mythos is French revolutionary

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enlightenment BS.

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Speaker 2: Generic things. Freedom of.

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Speaker 1: Is freedom of political freedom, freedom of ideas, equal justice,

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freedom of opinion, common decency.

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Speaker 2: What are you talking about? Right?

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Speaker 1: But again, remember from the propaganda standpoint, one of the

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basic rules of.

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Speaker 2: Propaganda is.

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Speaker 1: Use the most generic possible slogans because that allows everybody

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to interpret the slogans anyway they want.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to use a lot of high level

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precision in your propaganda.

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Speaker 2: Just keep it dumb, dude, because the.

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Speaker 1: More generic and catchy it is, the easier it is

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to bring people in because they can read into it

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whatever they want.

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Speaker 2: Right. Just think of the social justice.

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Speaker 1: Type things, right, same principle here. All the social justice

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stuff is is the latest incarnation of this stuff. Loose

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believe that the United States Constitution is the Liberal tradition.

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As a corollary of his belief in the Constitution, Henry

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Luce believed that business is essentially civilization. Business is life. Yes,

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you heard me, business church. You think I'm joking when

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I talk about business church, I'm not joking when I

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talk about I'm saying that the real church is Business

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is mannon so here, through media is one of the

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most powerful men in the world at this time, the

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voice of skull and Bones, the voice of the oss,

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the projector of the four Freedoms to the world, essentially

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saying that Leo the thirteen, in his encyclical condemning the

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Enlightenment principles, has to go away. The new freedoms that

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must be accepted. Uh, oh, guess what they're the freedoms liberty, equality, fraternity,

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social justice.

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Speaker 2: Where have we heard that before? Oh, that's the Masonic freedoms.

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And if he's in.

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Speaker 3: Skulling bones, what is skull and bones? Oh, that's Lodge

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three two two. Lodge three two two is the Germanic

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order of skull and Bones. The lodge of skull and

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Bones originates there, which is teaching the four freedoms of freemasonry,

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condemned by Potelar the thirteenth. So notice American Enlightenment Freemasonry

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embodied in the skull and Bones dictum, the four freedoms.

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Henry Loose is oss oss is skull and bones. Henry

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Loos is skull and bones, Skull and bone lodge three

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to two to two. That's masonic. It's not rocket.

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Speaker 1: Science we're doing here. It's not that hard to figure out.

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Next we have to talk about we're at two hours.

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But next we have to talk about Halfred mckinder, the

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Heartland Theory, the classic geopolitical analysis, the Milner Group, Rhodes

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Rothschild Milner, the Society of the Elect that's the secret

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society that was set up to create the Anglo American

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Empire establishment. We will go into his chapter on this,

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but basically this is just a chapter summarizing what you

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heard me do on my lectures on If you've not

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heard the quickly Tragian Hope and Anglo American Establishment lectures,

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go listen to those. Subscribe at my site to hear

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all those. But that will be where he goes next

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and he will talk about the birth of the Anglo

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American project prior to World War One with Rawchild, Rhodes Milner,

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the Roundtable groups. This will be the plan not just

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for the waning British imperium, but the packs Americana to

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take over, to be the engine of the Anglo American establishment.

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And yes, the State of Israel will play a role

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in that. Obviously, Remember the British Empire was already a

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world power prior.

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Speaker 2: To the establishment of the State of Israel.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I know about the Balfour Declaration, I know about

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Sykes Pico Treaty.

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Speaker 2: I know about all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to that, but suffice to say that for

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part one, we will end it there because we've covered

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a lot of meat here.

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Speaker 2: But I hope you get the point here.

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Speaker 1: The point of what we're saying with this is that

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it's not as simple as saying that like the Vatican

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was subverted by Freemasons. Venari's Ault of Indida document shows

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that the Alt of Indida Lodge took over the papacy.

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Speaker 2: It's it's more than that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's power players like the Anglo American establishment, the CIA,

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who co opt openly the Roman Catholic Church. We don't

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have to resort to up to obscure Masonic conspiracies. We

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already know what happened, okay, and it's clear in this book. So, uh,

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we're gonna do this book next. We're gonna we're gonna

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work our way through all of it. Please, if you

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do want to get into it, I recommend the book.

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I know not everybody has time to read an eight

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hundred page book, but definitely, Uh, it's eight hundred pages,

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one thousand plus footnotes. We're gonna be getting into the CFR,

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We're gonna be getting into Cold War. We're gonna be

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getting into Russia. We're gonna be getting into radio liberty

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now that's a CIA operation during the Cold War, or

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how it's related to the Callolic Church, spies and high

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places we're gonna get in. I mean, this book is wild.

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We're gonna get into Hollywood. There's a whole section of

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this book on Hollywood. So it's bigger than we oftentimes assume,

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and it does the convenient narrative of one bad guy

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is not true, and the trads are just going to

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have to come to grips with that. Or they can

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just continue melting away in their collapsing entity known as

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the Roman Calluy Church if they choose to that's what

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they want to do.

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Speaker 2: So I said that we would do also Q and A.

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Speaker 1: So I'm in a good mood and I'm enjoying talking

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about this material. And if anybody wants to hop on

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in the discord, feel free to. You can go into

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the discord and ask questions about the material that we

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covered today, theological questions.

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Speaker 2: I don't care what you want to talk about.

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Speaker 1: If you get too ridiculous, I'll just kick you out.

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So don't waste my time or anybody's time with stupid stuff.

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So let me pull up the discord here as I

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answer the superchats. So we got a few superchats here.

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Thank you guys for those superchats. So m curry, we

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explained what wasp was. Ross, thank you for that twenty dollars.

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Nice twenty bucks from old Ross there. I don't know

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who Ross is, but thank you Ross. Is that Ross

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from friends? Thank you Ross from friends? A ten dollars,

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Thank you A. Let's get ten bucks from every letter

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in the alphabet and then we'll be set for this week.

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Compay all the bills. Schopenhauer's bunny. I like that Schopenhower's bunny.

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I don't have a question. I just wanted to support

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you much appreciated. Thank you for that taco three dollars.

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Great information. But do impressions more often now we typically

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kind of divide the streams up, you know, like what

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We're gonna be doing a soprano stream pretty soon, so

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that will be rife with impressions. I'm gonna try to

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impress I present everybody. I've got Polly Good, I've got

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Tony Good, I've got Christopher pretty good.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's like the main ones. But yeah, so.

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Speaker 2: We'll have a lot of fun with that sopranos analysis

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because that was it was great shows on my favorite shows.

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I loved it. I was happy with the ending. I

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thought it ended really cool.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, So when we do that or when we do

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the more jokey streams, there's a lot more impressions in those.

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So but thank you for that three dollars taco jack

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for three bucks, say is what is the purpose of

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riots and violence? This is a strategy of control Ko.

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Speaker 2: So if you read there's.

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Speaker 1: A great essay at Global Research by Andrew Marshall, young

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guy around my age, but he wrote a book or

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a long essay called Arc of Crisis, and it's about

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Brazinski's model of control chaos. So if you want to

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understand the purpose of riots and violence, go read Andrew

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Marshall's essay Arc of Crisis about Brazenski. But essentially it

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just serves to propel thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Right, Dorman three sixty,

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you may be right about the subversion of the Latins,

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but you're too mean to debate. Yeah, sure, okay, thank you,

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Dorman three sixty.

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Speaker 2: I'll take that. I'm too mean, you know whatever.

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Speaker 1: Hey, we just had trads all day hanging out in

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my discord. Nobody got mad. It was perfectly civil. We

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talked for three hours to multiple two least two or

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three different trades. So it's not the case that everybody

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is that I'm mean to everybody.

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Speaker 2: All this kind of nonsense. And imagine the people who

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are the.

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Speaker 1: Old we're the Church of the Crusaders, We're the crusading Knights.

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And then you turn around and your butt hurt because

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supposedly I'm mean. I thought you were a crusader. Bro

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I thought you're a crusader. You're LARPing as a knight,

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but you're mad because I'm mean.

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Speaker 2: All right, So there's a super chat. So we got

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four hundred people. Welcome everybody.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for those and feel free to uh yeah,

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you're gonna like the Paul impression. It's it's gonna be

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on point. But we'll save that for the soprano string

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that Jamie and I will do. So come to the

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general chat in the discord if you want to let

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me add the discord here. We'll probably get an influx

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of lunatics. Not everybody. I love you guys, you're not

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a lunatics, but I'm sure some of you guys are lunatics.

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Speaker 2: So we'll have to vet the lunatics out of here.

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So get the discord link ready and then I'll open

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up discord here and we can do a Q and a.

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Speaker 4: M h.

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Speaker 5: M hmm.

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Speaker 2: All right. Gredo are you there? Yes, I am Grado.

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He's a good friend from Australia.

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Speaker 6: I'm here to ask ask the questions and getting them.

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Speaker 7: Tell you yeah.

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Speaker 1: Here, he's here to do his best Mail Gibson impression.

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He's doing Meil Gibson, Meil Gibson impassinating Grido.

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Speaker 5: If I do it Mel Gibson impersonation, they'll shut down

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the discord and ban you from YouTube.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, in that case, is there anybody who wants

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to do Q and A. If not, we don't have to.

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But if there is, is there anybody.

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Speaker 7: Uh kind of.

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Speaker 2: Have a few questions?

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Speaker 6: Okay, j Ashtown, Yes you can ask them.

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Speaker 8: Okay, Yeah, you were talking about natural law and like

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something and not really too familiar with the issue. If

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you could just swing quickly what's wrong exactly with natural.

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Speaker 6: Raw and what you're like?

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Speaker 8: The Orthodox position is that that it'd be that would

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be dandy, all right.

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Speaker 1: So the easiest best explanation for this is I'm gonna

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tell you too.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 1: I've got it linked at my website. There's there's one chapter.

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It's an essay called uh Knowledge. It's called the Knowledge

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the Theory of Knowledge of Saint Isaac the Syrian. Okay,

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and this is an essay that is in this excellent book.

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I recommend the whole book of Orthodox Faith in Life

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in Christ by Saint Justin Popovich, because he not only

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does he critique the papacy and the humanism of the papacy.

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Speaker 2: But he has a whole.

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Speaker 1: Chapter called the Theory of Knowledge of Isaac the Syrian,

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and Isaac the Syrian, who is obviously a saint the

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Orthodox Church, has the same epistemology as Saint Maximus. So

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the doctrine is based on the doctrine of the Logi.

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Speaker 2: And so what he's going to do in this.

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Speaker 1: Chapter is talk about how as Orthodox we don't have

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the tonistic doctrine of natural theology because Maximus doesn't teach

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natural theology. So what we're saying here is not that

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there's no such thing as nature. It's not that nature

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doesn't teach us God. It's that nature doesn't teach us

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generic theism. Nature teaches us Christ. And no one who

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believes in natural theology believes that nature teaches Jesus because

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Jesus the Trinity. All that stuff in Tomism is an afterthought.

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That's something that you prove after you've proven and stacked

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up this stuff of natural theology.

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Speaker 2: So what is natural theology?

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Speaker 1: Natural theology is autonomous man reasoning an in a sphere

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apart from revelation. According to Fetus at ratio of John

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Paul the I, it's not based on revelation. It makes

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no reference to reveal theology. It's man reasoning only from

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created mental principles about the world.

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Speaker 2: So we're gonna.

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Speaker 1: Reason about the external world, causation, te loos, purpose, the

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beginning of the world, et cetera, how it came to be.

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And it's all a bunch of nonsense. Why because it

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starts with the peripatetic axiom that nothing is in the

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intellect that's not first in the senses. Okay, that no

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one can defend that position anymore, because at the time

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of the Enlightenment it gets critiqued into devastation, it gets destroyed.

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Speaker 2: Now, how can I prove all this very easily?

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Speaker 1: Can you interpret the world as it is right now

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without making reference to the fall? Now, if you believe

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in natural theology, yes, you can derive all these principles

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about the operation of the natural world merely.

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Speaker 2: By sense data, without any reference to revelation. So but

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wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: When I do that and I look out at the world,

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I notice there's things like death and decay, predator and prey.

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Is the predator prey slash death feature of the world natural? Now,

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most Thomas are probably going to say something like, yes,

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there's a natural process that occurs in relationship to death.

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Speaker 2: Now, well, wait a minute, Paul says, death is the enemy.

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Speaker 1: Death entered because of the fall. So you can't interpret

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the world as it is right now without the doctrine

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of revelation, namely that it was created and that the

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reason that the world is in the state that it

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is right now is because of the fall. So the predator, prey,

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death aspect of the world is not natural. Thus, Saint

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Maximus can say, grace and virtue are the most natural

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things to man. There's nothing more natural to man than grace.

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So we don't have this nature grace dichotomy that they have.

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We don't have this natural theology revealed theology type of system.

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The natural world is the same content as revealed theology.

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It's just two different modes. So what's the meaning of

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scripture the logi of Christ. What's the meaning of the

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natural world the logi of Christ? How do they differ?

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It's two different modes or mediums or methods. So the

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Bible is a bunch of written texts about Jesus. Ultimately,

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the natural world is a bunch of animals and sticks

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and birds and stones about Jesus. That's what Maximus teaches.

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That's the whole point of the Logi doctrine. That's the

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whole point of this chapter about the Logi doctrine, that

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it's not natural theology from Tunism. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 9: Yeah?

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Speaker 10: No, I think I get a little bit of that.

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Speaker 1: So the very first chapter of Experience of God by

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stun Eloy, he starts his systematic theology with this what

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I'm saying for the Orthodox there is no distinction between

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supernatural grace and nature per se. There is a distinction,

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but not a distinction the way that the Roman Catholics

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say it.

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Speaker 2: We don't believe in natural theology. He says, it's.

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Speaker 1: More appropriate to call what we believe in natural revelation.

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And he says, how is that the case?

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Speaker 2: Where does he go to?

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Speaker 1: First Maximus? The first thing he appeals to is Maximus

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and the Logi. Because nature is not an uninterpreted brute

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fact that comes to you without any theory. Nature is

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what the Logos created it to be. Therefore, it can

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only be interpreted and understood according to its logie in Christ.

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So it's impossible to believe in natural theology. Hence wistan

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Neela correctly calls it natural revelation. I mean, another way

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I can prove this is that if you believe in

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natural theology, then you literally believe you literally believe that.

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In Romans One, when Paul talks about the knowledge of

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God that all men possess, they literally execute that as

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Aristotelian syllogisms. No, Paul is not talking about Aristotelian syllogisms

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and Romans one, he's talking about the news. The heart

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of man is guilty because all men know in their

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hearts that there's one true God. Has nothing to do

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with Aristotle syllogisms. And so the whole tonistic exegesis of

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what Romans one is talking about is absurd.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, j Sorry, I was gonna make it a question.

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Speaker 5: How do we define all hard was going to say, Jay,

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how do we define.

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Speaker 1: God's omnipotence and orthodoxy so that the ability to cause

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to find persons is us not held by all the

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members of the Trinity.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So somebody might say sometimes Thomas say this, They say.

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Speaker 2: Every or even I've even heard Muslims make this argument.

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Speaker 1: They'll say that every person in the Trinity has to

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have everything in common or one of them would lack. So,

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for example, if we say that the Father alone is

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the cause of the Godhead, then somehow the Son and

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the Spirit would be subordinated because they lack the power

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of causing. Well, the first thing that we would say

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is that, if you read the compendotionans, the power of

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causing is not a it's what we call a hypostatic property.

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So it's not a natural property. So anything that we're

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going to say is a power common to the person's

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is an attribute or a power that's proper.

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Speaker 2: To the divine nature.

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Speaker 1: So the power to create the world, the power to

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show divine justice, divine mercy, divine love, those are all

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common to the Godhead, and so they're therefore properties or

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attributes that are natural to God. But hyposthetic properties are

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different because they're the only properties that we believe as

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Orthodox from the Cappadocians that distinguish the person's. So, what

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is the father's unique hypostatic property that makes him alone

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who he is such that it can't be attributed to

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any other person. For us, it's cause that is the

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father's unique property. So the words that the church fathers

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use to describe the person.

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Speaker 2: Of the Father.

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Speaker 1: That's confirmed at the First Ecumenical Council, and the Kappadocian

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and Athanasian theology is ark an ark a, fount of godhead,

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unoriginate origin.

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Speaker 2: Cause. Yeah, I think that's most of them, right.

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Speaker 1: So those basically sum up who the Father is, and

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they're all describing the same single hyposthetic reality. They're not

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different attributes of his person. That is his hyposthetic reality.

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The Father is the sole origin, the sole cause, the soul, monarchia,

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the soul ark the soul anarchia, right, all of those properties.

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Speaker 2: He's autotheos.

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Speaker 1: He alone is auto theeos okay self caused, self existent,

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because the son and the Spirit derive their hypostatic existence

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from the Father. That's why Nicea, the Niceno constant Apolitan

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creed is a Cappadocian in stating the God from God

437
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like from light proposition. That's what all the Cappadocians taught

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about the monarchia of the Father. So to be cause,

439
00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:33,559
to be ourk to be found, to be origin, to

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be beginning, to be source, to be autotheos, self caused.

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Those are all names expressing the same reality.

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Speaker 2: That is the Father.

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Speaker 1: Those are all describing who he is. So he cannot

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share that with anyone else because they would be father.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So the son can't share any of those properties because

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now you have a father son, now you have a diad.

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So the power so called of being, the fount rk monarchy,

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et cetera, is the Father's hypostatic property. It's not a

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property of the Godhead by which one of the other

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persons lacks, because the Son, by sharing in the divine nature,

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has all the same powers that the Father has. He's

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co eternal, he's coequal, he has co dignity, right, he

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has co rain.

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Speaker 2: He has co love.

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Speaker 1: You know, you could say all of the attributes that

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are common to the Godhead are shared by the Son

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and the Spirit equally. But as it comes to origin

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and order, No, the Father is the first, The Father

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is the felt, The Father is God. When we say God,

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we mean the person of the Father.

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Speaker 6: It's a good answer. Does anyone ask any question?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I have a question of Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Are the persons of the Trinity God in.

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Speaker 6: And of themselves or the God only in.

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Speaker 2: Relation to the Father? Yes?

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Speaker 1: All the Kappadocians are absolutely unanimous that the only person

468
00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:18,200
whose Autotheos is the Father. So the Son and the Spirit,

469
00:32:18,359 --> 00:32:22,599
when they're called co unoriginate, that's in reference to creation.

470
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,119
It's when they're contrasted to creatures that the Son is

471
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,920
called co unoriginate. He is not called co unoriginate in

472
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,440
respect to the Trinity proper. He's always called of the Father.

473
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,880
And you'll you can read the orations. Gregor naci Angas

474
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:40,839
is super emphatic about this. He's very clear, Basil is

475
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,799
very emphatic about this. To be unoriginate, to be the

476
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,000
unoriginate origin, to be autotheos, is to be the Father.

477
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,480
So the only sense basically that I am aware of,

478
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,400
in which we can say the Son has the power

479
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,559
of being eternal co originate, right or excuse me, co

480
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:10,240
unoriginate is in reference to creatures, because he is because

481
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:11,599
the Trinity created the world.

482
00:33:11,759 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: Father, Son, and Spirit.

483
00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:18,039
Speaker 1: All participate in the action of creating the world. So

484
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,160
there are there is a couple places where Nazi angers

485
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,519
will say, is he uh uh co unoriginate? He says

486
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:30,200
only in contrast to creatures, but in terms of the

487
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,519
Trinity proper, he is not co unoriginate, because that would

488
00:33:33,559 --> 00:33:36,799
mean he shares the Father's unique property of being the

489
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,119
unoriginate origin.

490
00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 10: Okay, I have a question, Go ahead, So Jay, you

491
00:33:48,559 --> 00:33:51,839
said that. So you said that when referring to God,

492
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:57,279
we are referring to the Father. Correct, So then so

493
00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:00,920
then how come? So then how come it is also

494
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,119
correct to say that Jesus is God? Though if God

495
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,519
is only referring to the Father.

496
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: No, I said.

497
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,199
Speaker 1: Properly speaking, God refers to the Father, but God also

498
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,639
refers to the Son and the Spirit, because the Father

499
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,719
communicates the same divine nature to the Son and.

500
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 6: To the Spirit.

501
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:19,559
Speaker 2: So if you read the Creed, what does the creed say?

502
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:22,320
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty.

503
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,559
Speaker 1: So the Cappadocians will stress that the beginning of the

504
00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:31,719
Godhead and the recapitulation of Godhead relates back to the

505
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,480
person of the Father. So the Father not only is

506
00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:37,760
the origin, he's also the source of unity. How is

507
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,760
he the source of unity because he communicates that single

508
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,199
divine nature to the other two?

509
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,679
Speaker 10: I see.

510
00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:48,519
Speaker 1: So we're not saying that the Trinity isn't God. We're

511
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:51,599
saying that most of the time when we see the

512
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,800
phrase we believe in one God, it's referring to the

513
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,679
hypostasis of the Father, and we say that because it

514
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,320
guards the premiacy of the person a personhood. We don't

515
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,599
we don't begin our Trinitarian theology with the essence.

516
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 10: Okay, thank you.

517
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:15,639
Speaker 1: Sure, I would recommend doctor BOE's talk on the monarchia.

518
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,559
He's very good on that, and he just restates what

519
00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:20,679
the Cave Docians say.

520
00:35:21,039 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 5: Okay, Christian, I'll just read this one and then we'll

521
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,840
get to you. Christian du what do you think of

522
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,159
the major milestones in the global reaction to the Roman

523
00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:35,760
Catholics slash c I A takeover?

524
00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: What do I think of the major milestones and what that?

525
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 5: What do you think of the major milestones in the

526
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,440
global reaction to the r c C slash c.

527
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,119
Speaker 6: I A takeover.

528
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: I think the milestones in reaction would be what we've

529
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:04,119
seen in the last several years in relation to the

530
00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:07,599
back and forth between the West and Russia. That's the

531
00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:14,119
main milestones of reaction. So the expansion of Orthodox Christianity

532
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:21,159
in Russia, the situation in the Ukraine, Montenegro, the Church overthrowing,

533
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,679
what happened in Montenegro, those are the major milestones of reaction.

534
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:37,679
Speaker 11: Okay, sir to the question, Now go ahead, This is

535
00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:40,679
a two parters, so I'm going to ask I have

536
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,920
like two questions related to Protestantism.

537
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 12: Okay, but so yeah, My first question is, how do

538
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,119
you respond to the Protestant notion that the church is

539
00:36:54,159 --> 00:36:57,840
invisible as opposed to the Orthodox view of a church

540
00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:59,800
that is a visible institution.

541
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,119
Speaker 2: I would simply say that.

542
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: Paul's predominant image of the church is the body. The

543
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,119
body of Christ is just as physical and just as

544
00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:14,719
flesh as our bodies. When Christ was resurrected, he told

545
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,079
Thomas to put your finger in my side to show

546
00:37:18,199 --> 00:37:21,360
to Thomas that Jesus wasn't a phantasm. It was the

547
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,239
same Jesus who went to the cross, right, So he

548
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,079
has the same body, he has the same piercing in

549
00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:29,400
his side, and he says, put your finger in my

550
00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:31,880
side to show that it's a physical body.

551
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 2: It's the same one.

552
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: So in the same way, the Eucharist is physical, actual bread,

553
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,840
actual wine, because that's how Jesus instituted it.

554
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,079
Speaker 2: And so in the same way, the.

555
00:37:42,119 --> 00:37:46,119
Speaker 1: Church is made up of visible, physical bodies of people.

556
00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:50,000
So it makes no sense to have this platonic ideal

557
00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:57,039
invisible church, because that no longer fulfills the promises in

558
00:37:57,119 --> 00:38:00,320
the Old Testament about what the church would be when

559
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,800
it comes to be right. You have all these prophecies

560
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,760
in the Old Testament that the sign of the coming

561
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,559
of the Messianic Age will be when all the gentile

562
00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:13,679
nations start to pour into the church. When I go

563
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,599
to church history, I can look and see who that

564
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,880
church is. It's the Orthodox Church. That's the church of

565
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:21,960
the first thousand years.

566
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:26,079
Speaker 2: Okay.

567
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 12: So in the second part to that was just a

568
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,280
little context. Me and a friend of mine, we're talking

569
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,360
to a Protestant, older guy, and we wanted to know

570
00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:39,800
how do you respond to Protestants downplaying the importance of

571
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,239
the way communion is prepared, and to give a little

572
00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:45,679
understanding as to why we're asking it, because the guy

573
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,519
that we're talking to said that we needed to that

574
00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:52,960
if it was like I guess you could say, if

575
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,079
it was proper and there was an actual there's an

576
00:38:56,119 --> 00:38:58,400
actual meaning to it, then it should be done in

577
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,800
a feast because it was on it it was originally

578
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:07,079
prepared on a table in a feast form. How would

579
00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:08,159
you respond to that?

580
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,559
Speaker 1: I see, I think what you're saying so right. We

581
00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:16,920
wouldn't say that. So when Jesus was instituting this feast

582
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,159
in the Upper Room and setting the pattern for it,

583
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,119
he's doing a lot of things that are in accordance

584
00:39:23,199 --> 00:39:26,719
with multiple rituals from the Jewish service. Right, So it's

585
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,440
not just Passover. It's partly Passover, but it's also related

586
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,760
to other feasts by which the Jews. If you read Deuteronomy,

587
00:39:35,519 --> 00:39:37,000
a lot of times when they would have the feast,

588
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:40,480
they would come to the temple, they would bring their sacrifice,

589
00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:43,119
and they would actually eat the animal with the priest

590
00:39:43,639 --> 00:39:44,559
in the sacrifice.

591
00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: So there's a communal, covenental meal.

592
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: When Moses goes up on the mountain in Exodus, he

593
00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:52,280
has a meal with God, this priest. This priest signifies

594
00:39:52,320 --> 00:40:00,400
the Eucharist. When Melchizedek gives when Abraham ties to the Kizic,

595
00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:04,599
Melchizedic fixes a feast of bread and wine, which presignifies

596
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:07,400
the Eucharist. The point is that there's no way that

597
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,000
you could literally have every one of the Jewish ceremonies

598
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:12,519
smushed into one.

599
00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:14,599
Speaker 2: So the best way to do it is the way

600
00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:16,639
Jesus did it by creating a meal.

601
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,119
Speaker 1: Now, if you look in the Book of Acts, when

602
00:40:19,159 --> 00:40:21,679
they meet together to have the bread at the first

603
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:22,360
of the week.

604
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 2: They're not all doing a.

605
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: Feast, right, There is a love feast that follows the

606
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,360
ceremony that Paul mentions in the New Testament. But the

607
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,960
liturgy itself doesn't have to be a feast, as if

608
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,800
that's somehow essential to the ritual. The other way that

609
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,039
we know this is that the Apostles when they went

610
00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:43,840
and established the churches, they gave the church an actual

611
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,039
liturgy to do. We do the liturgy that's always been done.

612
00:40:48,639 --> 00:40:52,320
Read what Ignatius says about the liturgy in the first century.

613
00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:55,559
Read what Justin Martyr says in one fight about the liturgy.

614
00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:57,960
We still do the same liturgy that they talk about.

615
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 6: It's not just the lilogy.

616
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 9: It's also like all the cycles that we do that

617
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,880
they also similar to what the Old Testament believers do.

618
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 6: So it's like all of our practice.

619
00:41:10,119 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 12: Basically, because when I was told about when I when

620
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,559
he kind of like came back at me about this,

621
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,800
you know, when we were talking about when I talked.

622
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 6: To him about the real presence, he was.

623
00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 12: Like, well, I mean, technically, if we're going to be like,

624
00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:26,639
if you believe in it, then you should have a feast.

625
00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:29,639
And I was kind of like, that's not practical, Like

626
00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:32,440
how would you have a feast for everybody? And I

627
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,119
did mention the literal nature of the words of Jesus

628
00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:38,800
when he was speaking about communion and the blood, blood

629
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,360
and body of Christ. I mean, I think, yeah, And

630
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,840
so is is it You're you're you're coming from an

631
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,320
angle of I guess like practical practicality in church history

632
00:41:50,119 --> 00:41:53,800
having that as a tradition, have like a full on

633
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,280
feast for every communion every uh, you know, like at

634
00:41:58,280 --> 00:41:59,880
the last supper table type of thing.

635
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: Okay, but again I mean yeah, I mean who actually

636
00:42:05,519 --> 00:42:06,840
does anybody? Nobody does this.

637
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,039
Speaker 1: This is like a in other words, there's it was

638
00:42:10,159 --> 00:42:10,679
really weird.

639
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 12: I didn't expect that it's weird.

640
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:13,039
Speaker 2: I don't know.

641
00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: This sounds like some kind of this sounds like some

642
00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:16,760
kind of Hebrew roots kind of thing, like you have

643
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,480
to do everything that was done, you know, like in

644
00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:22,880
a ceremonial way, or it's invalid or something ridiculous like.

645
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:38,159
Speaker 7: This is it good?

646
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:38,159
Speaker 6: Ahead?

647
00:42:38,199 --> 00:42:40,079
Speaker 2: By the way, I would say, there's a couple of books.

648
00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: If a person wants an introduction to this issue, just

649
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,400
read Hugh Wybrew's book The Orthodox Liturgy, because it's about

650
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,199
how the eucharistic liturgy developed in the Byzantine right.

651
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,639
Speaker 2: It relates back to the synagogue and temple worship.

652
00:42:55,679 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: And then this book Orthodox Worship living continuity with the

653
00:42:58,400 --> 00:42:59,840
synagogue temple in early Church.

654
00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:01,039
Speaker 2: This is a really good book.

655
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,079
Speaker 1: Books or would you say, two different books, one by

656
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,079
Hugh weybrew W I. B. R. E. W.

657
00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:12,119
Speaker 2: And then a book by Benjamin Williams and Harold Enstall

658
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,280
called Orthodox Worship.

659
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: Okay uh.

660
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 6: First of all, given ja, I hope you're having a

661
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:28,280
good day.

662
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:34,079
Speaker 4: And my basic question would be along the lines of

663
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:37,800
do you think Americanism? And I guess more generally, the

664
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:44,360
love of America and its ideals would be compatible with

665
00:43:44,639 --> 00:43:49,159
strict adherence to Orthodox dogra and the traditions of the Church.

666
00:43:50,679 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: Right, So the Church is not necessarily wedded to any

667
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,880
political structure. The Church's favored monarchy. It has the right

668
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:02,760
of coronation, which is a kind of sacramental right of

669
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,000
the coronation of kings. But the Church can exist anywhere,

670
00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:09,599
even under governments that do not accept that, or you know,

671
00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:10,880
preach Americanism or whatever.

672
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,679
Speaker 2: So you can be a patriot, you can be.

673
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: A fan of your country insofar as your country's principles

674
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,840
don't contradict Orthodox teaching.

675
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:22,079
Speaker 2: Right.

676
00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: This is the same principle behind why the martyrs in

677
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,280
the first second third century went to death was that

678
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,039
they weren't rejecting the authority of the state inherently, but

679
00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:34,800
when Caesar overstepped his bounds and asked them to do

680
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,280
things that violated the law of God.

681
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 2: So there's a.

682
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: Higher authority that trump's even Caesar. That was the reason

683
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,639
why the you know, the martyrs were being put to

684
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:45,639
death is because they wouldn't admit that Caesar decides, you know,

685
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,000
ultimately what gods are allowed and arn't. So because you

686
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,800
could believe any God you wanted to, as long as

687
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,480
you admitted Caesar was also God and had the finals

688
00:44:54,519 --> 00:44:57,239
say so. Right, that's why the Christians were put to

689
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,119
death because they wouldn't admit that about Caesar. So in

690
00:45:00,159 --> 00:45:03,320
the same way, you could say that, you know, you

691
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:08,280
can grant to the American situation as much as is

692
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,599
possible in terms of the positive aspects of the system,

693
00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:15,159
but there are aspects of the system which.

694
00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 2: Are not in concord with Orthodox theology.

695
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,159
Speaker 1: For example, it's not the case that the state should

696
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:23,800
be ideally secular.

697
00:45:24,119 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: That's not true.

698
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,639
Speaker 6: Do you think that, and only what this?

699
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,039
Speaker 4: Do you think that America was inherently meant to be

700
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:34,800
a secular nation?

701
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why we started with Thomas Paine. Now that's

702
00:45:38,679 --> 00:45:41,440
a little harry because because you could say, oh, but

703
00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:44,199
some of the founding fathers believed in theism. Some of

704
00:45:44,199 --> 00:45:48,119
them were Episcopalian, some of them were Catholic, one or

705
00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:51,000
two were Catholics, some of them were Deists.

706
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,599
Speaker 2: So I mean yes and no.

707
00:45:54,679 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: I mean it's like it's like when a when ah,

708
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,840
when a Satanist says I believe in a deity, and

709
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:04,480
then I say I believe in a deity and a

710
00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:05,920
Muslim says I believe in a deity.

711
00:46:06,119 --> 00:46:08,559
Speaker 2: Do we all believe in a deity? Well? Yeah, but

712
00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:10,239
does that mean we believe in the same deity?

713
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 10: No?

714
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:12,039
Speaker 2: So is the.

715
00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: American constitution based on Christian principles or Enlightenment principles both?

716
00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 2: It's a it's a mix. So there's not a there's

717
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,679
not like an easy way out of this.

718
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, all right, that's pretty much answered my question.

719
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:29,280
Thanks verat timing Ja.

720
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:42,559
Speaker 13: Okay, okay, go ahead, uh quick, Jay you mentioned that

721
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,920
Ratsinger denies the.

722
00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 6: Bodily resurrection of Jesus.

723
00:46:47,639 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 10: Do you mind giving me a citation for that?

724
00:46:51,079 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's at the end of Introduction of Christianity.

725
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 13: Let me see Introduction of Christianity.

726
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 10: But h.

727
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:25,079
Speaker 14: I think yes, I think it's the last.

728
00:47:29,159 --> 00:47:34,519
Speaker 1: The last chapter, the resurrection the Body, page three forty seven,

729
00:47:34,639 --> 00:47:37,719
Introduction of Christianity. A lot of people have made us

730
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,639
stink about it. I mean, he's actually got a whole

731
00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:41,320
bunch of he's got He's got a whole bunch of

732
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,519
modernist statements. It's not like, oh, there's just one.

733
00:47:45,079 --> 00:47:47,559
Speaker 2: But of course, oh well, we don't We don't really

734
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:50,440
know what he means. He doesn't really say itself. You're

735
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,719
just they're just gonna do the never ending cope of oh,

736
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:58,199
he didn't really mean that. When he says that, he

737
00:47:58,280 --> 00:47:59,320
basically did not.

738
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: He's like he's he says something like, we can't have

739
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,079
this ancient view of it being like an actual body.

740
00:48:06,159 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 2: We don't know what it is. It's just like this

741
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:16,039
really vague thing about.

742
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 10: So Dostism is tread.

743
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 5: Now, Okay, what role does the British intelligence play in

744
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,679
today's geopolitical climate?

745
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,159
Speaker 6: And who is in the driving seat.

746
00:48:35,519 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 2: I think that.

747
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: I mean, you can just look at what all has

748
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,760
happened in the last six months, eight months to see

749
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,039
who's running things. I mean, everything is run right now

750
00:48:46,159 --> 00:48:48,639
by the same people that have been running things since.

751
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,719
What I'm talking about in these books, it's the same

752
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:58,440
power structure. It's the Anglo elite establishment right that includes US,

753
00:48:58,599 --> 00:49:03,320
UK Israel all on the same team, and they are

754
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,239
engaged in all the operations that you're seeing, like in

755
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:11,559
Russia or in Ukraine. I'm excuting Montenegro, Ukraine. All of

756
00:49:11,599 --> 00:49:14,760
that stuff is the outplaying of this. It's all the

757
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:15,440
same stuff.

758
00:49:19,519 --> 00:49:23,559
Speaker 5: Next question is what is the orthodoxy viewpoint of mortification

759
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,239
of the flesh in Catholicism.

760
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: Saint Gregory Palamos, we don't believe in mortification. Mortification is

761
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,920
a erroneous doctrine of Catholicism that negates the body. Orthodoxy

762
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,480
is very pro body because of the resurrection. We stress

763
00:49:39,519 --> 00:49:44,760
the resurrection. We don't mortify the flesh. We believe the

764
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,119
flesh is deified, so we do practice asceticism, but that's

765
00:49:48,159 --> 00:49:52,400
not the same thing as mortifying the flesh. Mortifying the

766
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:57,000
flesh is based on a mistranslation. I think in the Vulgate.

767
00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:04,199
Speaker 5: Does act as purists make or attempt to make the

768
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:05,800
Trinity into a monad.

769
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,119
Speaker 2: It doesn't attempt to. It attempts to have.

770
00:50:10,039 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: A philosophical definition and explication of what simplicity is and

771
00:50:14,519 --> 00:50:19,480
how to do natural theology based on philosophic first principles,

772
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:26,719
but it unfortunately precludes and negates the trinitarian doctrines which

773
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:31,559
necessitate real distinctions in the Trinity, and for example, one

774
00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:35,400
hypostasis being able to enter into a motive being that

775
00:50:35,559 --> 00:50:38,800
the other two do not, namely, the Son becomes, incarnates

776
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,039
and dies, the Father and the Spirit do not. So

777
00:50:41,079 --> 00:50:44,239
you need a Trinitarian theology that allows for that and

778
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:48,880
doesn't preclude it by its simplicity doctrine. So Actus purists

779
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,760
also necessitates an eternal creator, an eternal creation that the

780
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,960
eternal actualizer is actualizing and moving. It means that all

781
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,760
possible worlds have to be the actualize.

782
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: There's no potential in God.

783
00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it has all these problems that just really

784
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:10,119
don't line up with what's needed to have orthodox trinitarian

785
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,280
and crystological teaching.

786
00:51:17,519 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 5: What's the main what is the major problems you see

787
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,480
with using relations of opposition to distinguish members of the Trinity.

788
00:51:26,039 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: Well, first and foremost, they're not the distinctions that are

789
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,440
already codified and used and confirmed by the Cappadocians. So

790
00:51:35,559 --> 00:51:39,400
Athanacious and the Cappadocians have a very specific, very consistent,

791
00:51:40,199 --> 00:51:43,639
clear doctrine of how to explicate and pick out the persons.

792
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,440
There's nothing about relations of opposition until Augustine and later

793
00:51:47,639 --> 00:51:50,960
Latin theologians. So all I really have to do is

794
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:56,760
just point out that constantinople One dogmatically affirms the Cappadocian

795
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,559
and ATHANATIONI interpretation of the Creed, so that precludes any

796
00:52:01,599 --> 00:52:05,440
relations of opposition just from the outset on a dogmatic stance.

797
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,679
But beyond that, relations of opposition literally makes absolutely no

798
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,679
sense in the Trinity, because the Trinity is a triad,

799
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:17,760
not a diad. Opposition relates to diad. God is not

800
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,880
a diad, the Trinity is not a diad. There's no

801
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,880
such thing as relations of opposition in a triad by definition,

802
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,920
so that's problematic. But also, the persons are not relations,

803
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,960
the persons are subjects. And this is I think Loski's critique,

804
00:52:33,159 --> 00:52:36,079
which is to say that Thomas is wrong when he

805
00:52:36,119 --> 00:52:39,119
says persona at ralacchio, and he only says persona at

806
00:52:39,159 --> 00:52:41,679
ralostio because of absolute simplicity.

807
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,039
Speaker 2: But a relation is a.

808
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 1: Predicate, not a subject, and the persons are subjects, So

809
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,639
you can't define a subject by a predicate or a relation.

810
00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 6: Right.

811
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,119
Speaker 5: Is In a writing I was reading on the Bogamil heresy,

812
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,679
the writers stated the Latins were still using the liturgy

813
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,159
made by Peter. So could you argue that the Catholics

814
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,440
not preserving the liturgy of Peter is evidence in a

815
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:22,880
sense against either papal infallibility or papal supremacy.

816
00:53:21,039 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 1: By the liturgy made by Peter. Are you talking about

817
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:32,800
the Gregorian liturgy?

818
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,519
Speaker 6: Perhaps we could amuse him or wait for him.

819
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,679
Speaker 10: To clarify that question, because that is a very interesting cavio.

820
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,679
Speaker 8: Yeah, if he wants to, he can just type of question.

821
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not a historian of the history of

822
00:53:48,519 --> 00:53:51,840
the Latin liturgy. I mean, I know about the major reforms,

823
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:56,119
the Gregorian reforms. I know about what happened under different popes,

824
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:03,440
pious and these people would the data DEFECTI boos and

825
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,679
all this kind of stuff, So, but I don't know

826
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,679
how I mean I guess. I guess some people would

827
00:54:08,679 --> 00:54:11,599
say that's the liturgy of Peter. I mean, it's not

828
00:54:11,639 --> 00:54:13,599
typically the way the trad speak. They just talk about

829
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:16,760
the Gregorian right, but I mean Western right Orthodox churches

830
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:22,559
will use the Gregorian liturgy, So I'm not sure what

831
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:26,039
you mean by the Petrine liturgy.

832
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,679
Speaker 15: Yeah, I guess my question was like someone were related

833
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,639
to like did he make a liturgy in the sense,

834
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,880
So it was kind of two questions in one.

835
00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 2: I don't know that we probably don't know.

836
00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:46,679
Speaker 1: So actually there's quite a bit about the first and

837
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,239
second century that we don't know. I'm not saying that

838
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,920
there aren't scholars who don't have knowledge of this or

839
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,480
a theory on this. I'm just saying I don't personally know.

840
00:54:55,519 --> 00:54:58,719
I'm not a liturgical scholar. I have some familiarity with

841
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,719
some of the stuff with Patristia, but liturgics is kind

842
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:06,960
of its own domain, and I don't know exactly it.

843
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:08,679
Speaker 2: Would probably have to look.

844
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:18,639
Speaker 1: At Ratolian or Hippolitus, and they could probably have insights

845
00:55:18,679 --> 00:55:22,599
into how the early Latin liturgy bit would have been done,

846
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:24,559
But I don't actually know.

847
00:55:24,679 --> 00:55:27,760
Speaker 2: That's a good question, ok, thank.

848
00:55:27,639 --> 00:55:35,199
Speaker 5: You, Okay, next, Ascapsultis had a question if you could

849
00:55:35,199 --> 00:55:36,840
have me and ask you a question, go ahead.

850
00:55:39,119 --> 00:55:39,559
Speaker 7: Oh yeah.

851
00:55:39,559 --> 00:55:43,559
Speaker 9: So in a recent video jay that you had on TAG,

852
00:55:44,119 --> 00:55:47,360
you talked about how it's it's necessary for there to

853
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:49,360
be a trinity because otherwise you end up with this

854
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:54,280
situation where God is contingent on creation, right, because otherwise

855
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,280
he doesn't he doesn't have a thing to be like

856
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,000
God of Right, Am I representing that correctly?

857
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:00,639
Speaker 2: Right?

858
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 9: And so I was just wondering how that exactly works

859
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,199
with like the Son and the Holy Spirit, because I

860
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:12,159
get them like the Father as the monarch would be

861
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,519
you know, the you know, the monarch of this of

862
00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:17,880
the Son of the Holy Spirit. But would this would

863
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,480
the Son like be the God of the Father and

864
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,760
the Holy Spirit or and like would it worked that

865
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:23,199
way too?

866
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 2: No, No, those kind of terms would be.

867
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: Like the Father would still have a premissy in terms

868
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:40,239
of being the cause to unoriginate the fountain the beginning,

869
00:56:41,199 --> 00:56:43,880
but we don't import into those terms anything to do

870
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:49,159
with temporal power or supremacy. So the Father in generating

871
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:52,519
a son that is his icon or his direct image,

872
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,679
also communicates to him the same divine nature that he possesses.

873
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,079
Just as a human father gives birth to a human son.

874
00:56:59,639 --> 00:57:02,079
They have the same nature even though they're distinct persons.

875
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,800
So that's just an analogy for how in the trinity,

876
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,400
the son being the son of the Father. He Jesus

877
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,639
says all these statements in the Book of John, like,

878
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,039
you know, I came to show you the father, to

879
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:15,960
direct you to the Father. I came to only do

880
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,199
what the Father says. I only follow what the Father

881
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,480
tells me to do. I commit his you know, I

882
00:57:20,519 --> 00:57:23,920
only do his will. So he's in full subjection to

883
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:29,199
the father. Right, So the father is given premissy in

884
00:57:29,239 --> 00:57:34,199
the sense that he's the father, but he also, Jesus says,

885
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,199
for the Father has given the son to have life

886
00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:40,480
in himself. Right, the father has given everything that he

887
00:57:40,519 --> 00:57:45,559
possesses to the son. So the father communicates and gives

888
00:57:45,639 --> 00:57:48,199
out of self love excuse me, out of true love

889
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:54,360
to the other, to his son, the full community.

890
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,199
Speaker 2: Of divine power that he possesses. Right, So there's no

891
00:57:57,559 --> 00:57:59,159
lacking in what Jesus has.

892
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,239
Speaker 1: So, in other words, it's not like an either or

893
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:08,400
where we're saying that God and Lord only apply to

894
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,840
a to a created order. We're saying that The reason

895
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:16,960
that God doesn't require a created order to be lord

896
00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:19,679
is because the Father has a son, and the Father

897
00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:22,719
and the Son share a communion of love, which is

898
00:58:22,719 --> 00:58:25,880
the Spirit in a manifestation sense.

899
00:58:28,519 --> 00:58:30,079
Speaker 6: Son.

900
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,679
Speaker 9: That the Son and the Holy Spirit would require creation

901
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,199
in order to be lord of something.

902
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: No, because they that's the point of that. They share

903
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,480
that love to one another. So, in other words, the

904
00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:48,320
Son returns the love back to the Father simultaneously, the

905
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,559
Father loves the Spirit uh and the son.

906
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,519
Speaker 2: The Spirit loves the.

907
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:57,079
Speaker 1: Son and the Father, so that communion is shared amongst

908
00:58:57,079 --> 00:58:59,280
all three. And so the point is that there is

909
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:06,440
a mutual communion that occurs that doesn't require the property

910
00:59:06,519 --> 00:59:10,360
of In other words, we say that God in the

911
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,960
sense of being lord or providence or God over something,

912
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,559
that's only an attribute that God takes on in relation

913
00:59:17,639 --> 00:59:24,519
to creation. So he wasn't providential or creator before he created.

914
00:59:24,679 --> 00:59:30,800
We don't believe in an eternal creator. But what I'm saying,

915
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,000
I see your objection. I'm trying to see to phrase

916
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,159
it right, you're saying that if the Trinity bypasses the

917
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:41,719
problem of saying that God needed the creation to be

918
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:47,239
lord over, then doesn't the Son and the spirit lack

919
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:48,480
the property of being.

920
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:49,079
Speaker 2: God or Lord.

921
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: But God and Lord are or we're saying he's obviously

922
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,440
God from all eternity. But sometimes people will say the

923
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,760
definition of God is to be a god of creation.

924
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 2: So in that sense we don't say he's God.

925
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 1: If by God you mean God the Father, then yes,

926
01:00:05,519 --> 01:00:09,039
he's God, the Father from all eternity, Father of who

927
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,840
greater than who greater than the Son, in the sense

928
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,400
of being the origin.

929
01:00:14,039 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 2: Of the Son.

930
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 6: All righty, gotcha makes sense, Thank you so much.

931
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:27,079
Speaker 5: Okay, next question is is there a theological reasoning that

932
01:00:27,159 --> 01:00:30,760
led to the entire Orthodox Church adopting the Byzantine right?

933
01:00:31,719 --> 01:00:35,119
And then he says, after the Calcidon Schism, the Church

934
01:00:35,159 --> 01:00:38,440
of Antioch adopted the Byzantine Rite and abandoned the Syriac right.

935
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,920
In the twelfth century, the Georgian Church adopted the Byzantine

936
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,880
right and dropped the Armenian tradition, and in the sixteenth

937
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,440
century in the Russian Church made their rights conformative to

938
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:52,960
the Greeks, causing the Old believe aschism.

939
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: But aside from the just the historical instances, I don't

940
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,760
know that there's some overriding decision and to do that,

941
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,800
I mean, there's nothing inherently necessarily wrong with the other

942
01:01:05,039 --> 01:01:07,440
rights per se. And I think even on Mountain Athos

943
01:01:07,599 --> 01:01:11,519
the Liturgy of Saint James is celebrated sometimes right, which

944
01:01:11,559 --> 01:01:16,679
is the Alexandrian liturgy. So it's not infallibly the case

945
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:22,880
that that's always, but it's rather that it just becomes

946
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,039
more and more normative, and everybody kind of wants to

947
01:01:26,039 --> 01:01:28,559
do things in harmony, I guess. So it's not that

948
01:01:28,599 --> 01:01:32,039
they're defective, but it's it's like the Western right. It's

949
01:01:32,039 --> 01:01:35,440
not that the Gregorian right is necessarily bad, but what

950
01:01:35,599 --> 01:01:37,880
happens is that a lot of times people will bring

951
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:43,599
their theological baggage and assumptions into the Latin liturgy and

952
01:01:43,679 --> 01:01:47,519
they don't get the good theology that's present in the

953
01:01:47,559 --> 01:01:52,760
Byzantine liturgy. So it's more so maybe pragmatic reasons than

954
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,679
it is like some sort of inherent defect, I would say,

955
01:01:57,199 --> 01:01:59,199
But I'm also not a liturgical scholar.

956
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:00,719
Speaker 2: That's not mine. Forte.

957
01:02:03,719 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 6: Okay.

958
01:02:04,119 --> 01:02:07,159
Speaker 5: The next question is how is it possible that the

959
01:02:07,199 --> 01:02:11,599
academic consensus on the works of Saint Dionysius places its

960
01:02:11,599 --> 01:02:16,159
true authorship as some pseudonymous writer almost five hundred years

961
01:02:16,239 --> 01:02:19,599
later than tradition. It seems that such a huge disparity

962
01:02:19,599 --> 01:02:24,320
in dating should be easily resolvable through textual analysis, historical cizations,

963
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,920
and so forth. This strikes me as an important issue

964
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,519
since it gives ammunition to those claiming the ee distinction.

965
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:34,440
Orthodoxy is just grouped from Neoplatonism. Even Orthodox wiki cs

966
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:37,880
to the academic consensus. Do the academics have that strong

967
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:38,440
of a case?

968
01:02:39,199 --> 01:02:39,519
Speaker 2: Okay?

969
01:02:39,559 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 1: First of all, go read David Bradshaw's book Aristotle East

970
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,000
and West, and you will see that the essence introducinction

971
01:02:46,199 --> 01:02:49,679
is not predicated on Dionysius and the Divine names. Dionysius

972
01:02:49,719 --> 01:02:52,079
and the Divine names does make the essen senterd discinction.

973
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,639
The essence inerdiscinction is completely contrary to Neoplatonism. I'm not

974
01:02:56,639 --> 01:02:59,800
sure to be rude, but if you understood the essence introducinction,

975
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:01,079
you would know that it's.

976
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,639
Speaker 2: Employed to refute Neoplatonism.

977
01:03:04,159 --> 01:03:07,239
Speaker 1: I can't stress this enough. I get tired of constantly

978
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,079
saying this to the Roman Catholics and to the tomiss

979
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:15,079
When Basil writes about the essence energy distinction, he's arguing

980
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,840
against people who have Platonic assumptions of simplicity. The essence

981
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:25,840
energy distinction refutes neoplatonism. Now, is there a similarity between

982
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,599
neoplatonism and what's in Dinysius. Yes, I don't think anybody

983
01:03:29,639 --> 01:03:34,239
disputes that. However, what theoretically could be disputed. If you

984
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:39,360
read the Steinieloi essay at Orthochristian about the dating of Dinysius,

985
01:03:40,119 --> 01:03:43,440
there is a defense of Dinysius being Dinysius.

986
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 2: So I would recommend that essay at.

987
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: Orthochristian defense of the dating of Dinasius or something like

988
01:03:48,079 --> 01:03:51,159
that on the title of Dinasia or something like that.

989
01:03:52,119 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 2: But setting that issue aside the other possibility. It also

990
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:56,400
could be the.

991
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,559
Speaker 1: Case that, as I was saying to that guy about

992
01:03:59,559 --> 01:04:03,199
the liturgy, I don't think people realize that when it

993
01:04:03,239 --> 01:04:08,199
comes to these first, second, third, fourth century stuff, there's.

994
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 2: A lot that we don't know.

995
01:04:09,679 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: Okay, manuscripts are being discovered all the time, there's new

996
01:04:14,039 --> 01:04:19,920
stuff that comes about, so textual criticism and reconstruction involves

997
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,400
a lot of guesswork. I'm not saying that it can't

998
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:24,320
be done. I'm not saying that they're all we've had

999
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:28,440
textual scholars on so I'm not trying to be overly simplistic.

1000
01:04:28,519 --> 01:04:31,960
I recognize the nuances. I'm just saying that, for example,

1001
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,400
it could be the case that the present documents that

1002
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:41,199
we have of Dionysius are later additions that do include

1003
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,960
neoplatonic phraseology and terms.

1004
01:04:46,039 --> 01:04:48,039
Speaker 2: So it's not like it has to be some either

1005
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:49,719
or like, well, either there was.

1006
01:04:49,719 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: A dude named Dionysius who composed all of that treatise,

1007
01:04:54,159 --> 01:04:57,480
or maybe there's a redacted one that we have that's

1008
01:04:57,559 --> 01:05:00,440
from the fourth or fifth century that is based on

1009
01:05:00,599 --> 01:05:02,559
a smaller corpus.

1010
01:05:02,719 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 2: Of the real dynasties. I mean, we just don't know.

1011
01:05:05,079 --> 01:05:07,280
So in other words, when you read.

1012
01:05:07,119 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: About textual scholarship, I'm not saying you haven't read it.

1013
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:12,159
I don't know who you are or what you have

1014
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,679
or haven't read. I'm just making the point that one

1015
01:05:14,719 --> 01:05:17,280
thing that you'll notice is that it's a lot of guesswork.

1016
01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:19,719
Remember when we had doctor James snap On and we

1017
01:05:19,719 --> 01:05:24,119
were talking about the certain codices that have the giant

1018
01:05:24,199 --> 01:05:29,599
space left out for the ending place of mark. So

1019
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:34,679
he's speculating, with reasonable speculation that a lot of these

1020
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:40,360
codices had a parenthesis where there would fit the ending

1021
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:45,960
part of Marx Gospel, so he reasonably assumes that the

1022
01:05:46,119 --> 01:05:49,679
ending part of Marx Gospel is supposed to be there.

1023
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:53,159
It's just missing in certain manuscripts because some of the

1024
01:05:53,239 --> 01:05:56,840
copyists didn't know what to do with the ellipses. So

1025
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,440
there's a whole dispute that's perhaps solved on the of

1026
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,840
one speculation. But we don't know, right, because a lot

1027
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:09,320
of textual stuff is reconstructing things that nobody knows for sure.

1028
01:06:10,199 --> 01:06:13,559
How much more with ancient texts like Dionysius, Right, we

1029
01:06:13,719 --> 01:06:16,639
just don't know. So I'm not a Dinysius scholar. I

1030
01:06:16,639 --> 01:06:19,320
don't claim to know about this, but I do trust

1031
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:23,480
the tradition of the church, and there are defenses of

1032
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:28,480
the argument. But before any of that, even the world

1033
01:06:28,639 --> 01:06:33,880
authority on Dionysius, Bishop Alexander Golitzen, who does not believe

1034
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:38,559
that Dionysius is Dionysius, he accepts the pseudo thing. In

1035
01:06:38,559 --> 01:06:43,280
his essays, he argues that the real origin of Dionysius's

1036
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,719
theology is Ezekiel and the.

1037
01:06:45,719 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 2: Chariot Merkava mysticism, which is true.

1038
01:06:49,519 --> 01:06:53,599
Speaker 1: So if the origin is not even Plotinus, then it

1039
01:06:53,639 --> 01:06:57,440
really doesn't matter if there's a later similarity between Plotinian

1040
01:06:57,639 --> 01:07:02,679
phraseology and imagery and celestial hierarchies or whatever. It doesn't

1041
01:07:02,679 --> 01:07:08,440
really matter because nobody denies their similarities in understandings of

1042
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,159
this or that. But if you read the divine names,

1043
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:16,039
it's almost all citations from Scripture. Right, So he's talking

1044
01:07:16,039 --> 01:07:20,400
to philosophers, trying to speak to them in philosophic language.

1045
01:07:20,519 --> 01:07:23,559
But one thing that's really important about Orthodoxy is that

1046
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:27,280
a lot of these terms are not synonymous with the

1047
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:28,400
Hellenic meaning.

1048
01:07:28,159 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 2: Of the terms, right. Logos Logi a great example of this.

1049
01:07:32,119 --> 01:07:33,920
When Saint Maximus.

1050
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 1: Utilizes the logi doctrine, which is from Plotinus, he alters

1051
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,480
it in three significant ways. He makes the logi to

1052
01:07:41,519 --> 01:07:45,519
be free will actions of God. They're not emanations, they're

1053
01:07:45,519 --> 01:07:51,320
not determined generations, they're necessary, and he makes them only

1054
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,239
relate to the created order, and thus God can freely

1055
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:56,880
do it, and he makes them personal. He makes them

1056
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:01,800
in hypostatic. So is the phrase logi in Plotinus?

1057
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:02,599
Speaker 2: Yes?

1058
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: Is the phrase logi in Maximus?

1059
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 2: Yes?

1060
01:08:05,599 --> 01:08:10,079
Speaker 1: Does that mean that Maximus teaches Plutinian Neoplatonism. No, because

1061
01:08:10,079 --> 01:08:13,199
he significantly alters it in three key areas that make

1062
01:08:13,239 --> 01:08:18,119
it no longer Neoplatonic and now Christian because he makes

1063
01:08:18,159 --> 01:08:18,880
them energies.

1064
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:27,359
Speaker 5: Okay, next question is in two parts, quite a long one,

1065
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:28,000
so we'll.

1066
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:29,279
Speaker 6: Do a first part in the second part.

1067
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 5: So in response to Catholics concerning the philio doctrine, why

1068
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,159
does this son proceeding from the will of the Father

1069
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:41,600
necessitate the son as created? If the Father could eternally

1070
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:42,760
will the son's.

1071
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:48,319
Speaker 1: Existence, Because if you read Athenasius, that's an Aryan argument.

1072
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:52,840
Athanasius rejects the Aryan argument that the son is generated

1073
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:56,399
by will. He specifically states that he's not generated by will.

1074
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:01,680
He's generated directly of the Father's nature and there's no

1075
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:05,199
interposition of will. This is what the Arians and then

1076
01:09:05,199 --> 01:09:07,960
Eunomius argues, is that the son is a work of

1077
01:09:08,119 --> 01:09:08,920
energy and will.

1078
01:09:09,279 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 2: No, he's not.

1079
01:09:10,039 --> 01:09:15,399
Speaker 1: He's a direct natural generation of the Father's essence. So

1080
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:21,119
it's the father as hypostasis with the divine nature. The

1081
01:09:21,119 --> 01:09:23,840
divine nature is in hypostatized in the person of the Father,

1082
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:28,359
who generates the son of his nature, you see. So

1083
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:32,159
it's in hypostatic. Even the generation is in hyposthetic. It's

1084
01:09:32,159 --> 01:09:36,239
of the Father's nature. So when the son is when

1085
01:09:36,279 --> 01:09:39,560
the son is generated. It is not by will, because

1086
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:43,760
anything that's by will is common to the Godhead. It's

1087
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:48,359
common to all three persons, such as creating the world. Father, Son,

1088
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:52,520
and Spirit create the world, even redemption, even if there's

1089
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,800
different modes of the person's right. The Son becomes incarnate

1090
01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:59,159
and dies, not the Father, not the Spirit. Even those

1091
01:09:59,239 --> 01:10:04,359
actions are to the Godhead, but they are actualized or

1092
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:08,199
in h they are brought to reality in three unique

1093
01:10:08,399 --> 01:10:15,640
modes of existence. So therefore the Spirit cannot be proceeding

1094
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,840
by will, because that would mean he's a creature. That

1095
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:22,720
would mean that the Father and the Son create the Spirit,

1096
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,880
because anything by will is common to the Godhead, and

1097
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,640
if it's common to the Godhead, then all three do it.

1098
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:34,600
Or this makes no sense, right, So that's just taking

1099
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,359
the Aryan argument about the Son being an act of

1100
01:10:37,399 --> 01:10:40,000
God's will and applying it to the Holy Spirit. Now,

1101
01:10:40,039 --> 01:10:42,279
the Holy Spirit would be an act of God's will

1102
01:10:42,319 --> 01:10:45,199
and therefore a creature. That's why Athanasius says the sun

1103
01:10:45,319 --> 01:10:46,760
is not generated by will.

1104
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 2: He's God of God, light of light. There's no interposition

1105
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:51,359
of will.

1106
01:10:55,239 --> 01:10:58,079
Speaker 5: And the second part of the question is if the

1107
01:10:58,119 --> 01:11:01,399
spirit shays the same essence with the Father, and the

1108
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:06,399
Spirit is generated from the Father's essence nature. Why wouldn't

1109
01:11:06,399 --> 01:11:10,760
the criticism that we force mainly that the spirit being

1110
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,640
a product of the Father's will and sharing the same

1111
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,520
will as the Father resulting in the spirit.

1112
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:18,520
Speaker 1: How can it be a product of will if it

1113
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,640
shares the same will, It makes no sense. The spirit

1114
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:25,039
is a product of the spiration of the Father, not

1115
01:11:25,199 --> 01:11:28,720
the will of the Father. Because father, son and Spirit

1116
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:33,720
share one will. Will is a faculty of nature, not person.

1117
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:37,119
So all of this nonsense, and that this is directly

1118
01:11:37,159 --> 01:11:41,479
from Ludwig Ought in his Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. He says,

1119
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:45,199
the Holy Spirit proceeds by will. No, he doesn't, No

1120
01:11:45,279 --> 01:11:47,359
more than the Son is generated by will.

1121
01:11:48,199 --> 01:11:48,560
Speaker 2: Why not?

1122
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,119
Speaker 1: Because the Father, son, and Spirit have one will. They

1123
01:11:51,119 --> 01:11:53,399
all share the same will and nobody. But if they

1124
01:11:53,399 --> 01:11:56,479
all share the same will, then nobody would would affirm

1125
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,439
that the Holy Spirit wills himself? Right, he doesn't generate

1126
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:06,199
or he does process himself. Therefore he cannot proceed by will.

1127
01:12:06,359 --> 01:12:07,880
It's a fundamental blunder.

1128
01:12:10,159 --> 01:12:14,800
Speaker 5: Next question is several Western scholars claim Epistles one, three,

1129
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:19,199
three John forderies developed by the medieval Church how can

1130
01:12:19,239 --> 01:12:21,000
we debunk this nonsensical theory.

1131
01:12:21,079 --> 01:12:24,199
Speaker 1: Well, I can debunk that right away because the Church

1132
01:12:24,279 --> 01:12:27,359
fathers cite these epistles. So that's ludicrous. I mean, I

1133
01:12:27,399 --> 01:12:31,760
can give you read any of the major church fathers

1134
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:34,960
will include the Catholic epistles in their canon. Their list

1135
01:12:35,039 --> 01:12:39,960
of the canon Athanasius includes going from Memory the Catholic Epistles,

1136
01:12:40,039 --> 01:12:42,800
So that's on its face ludicrous that it would be

1137
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:47,079
a medieval invention. That's preposterous. You could debunk that in

1138
01:12:47,119 --> 01:12:48,479
about two minutes with Google.

1139
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1140
01:12:51,239 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 5: Next question is for someone looking to convert to Orthodoxy,

1141
01:12:55,199 --> 01:12:58,079
what's with the schism with Constantinople and Moscow?

1142
01:12:58,199 --> 01:12:59,279
Speaker 6: Where can I learn about it?

1143
01:12:59,359 --> 01:13:01,720
Speaker 5: And would it refer on which jurisdiction I joined?

1144
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 2: Could you repeat the last part you're looking to convert in?

1145
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 6: What he wants to know?

1146
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,079
Speaker 5: What is the circumstance with the schism with Constantinople in

1147
01:13:14,199 --> 01:13:15,920
Moscow and where can.

1148
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:16,600
Speaker 6: He learn about it?

1149
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:20,800
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of what I've talked about in tonight's

1150
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:25,319
stuff geopolitically will relate to that, right, So we're not

1151
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:27,560
I mean, we're talking about stuff in the fifties and sixties,

1152
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:31,439
and tonight's talk but the same issues are what undergird

1153
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:38,840
today's problems between Moscow and Constantinople. So the divide there

1154
01:13:39,039 --> 01:13:42,439
has progressed to a certain point in canonical church discipline

1155
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:43,199
where there's a.

1156
01:13:43,159 --> 01:13:44,359
Speaker 2: Removal of communion.

1157
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:50,640
Speaker 1: That's the stage right before formal excommunication. So we would

1158
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,640
not yet say that everybody in communion with Bartholomew has

1159
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,199
lost grace, but we are at the stage before the

1160
01:13:57,239 --> 01:13:59,399
next step would be formal excommunication.

1161
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,159
Speaker 2: At that point point we would say that you have

1162
01:14:02,239 --> 01:14:08,279
to leave ep churches and go arch churches.

1163
01:14:09,159 --> 01:14:11,520
Speaker 1: We don't necessarily say that yet, but you can already

1164
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,760
see the degradation of the go arch churches in the US.

1165
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,640
They're pretty bad. Not every one of them, but some

1166
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:25,960
of them. So long story short, find the best church

1167
01:14:26,039 --> 01:14:29,479
around you by visiting all of them and see which

1168
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:30,560
one is the most solid.

1169
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:31,520
Speaker 2: That's the best solution.

1170
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:34,319
Speaker 6: Okay.

1171
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:38,600
Speaker 5: Next question is it's a historical question. What would you

1172
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,560
say to those who seek to undermine the saintly character

1173
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:46,000
of Sincerial of Alexandria by accusing him of having something

1174
01:14:46,039 --> 01:14:48,039
to do with the murder which was carried out by

1175
01:14:48,079 --> 01:14:49,479
a mob against Hypatia.

1176
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:51,319
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a Catholic.

1177
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:55,119
Speaker 1: I saw a Catholic article that debunks this pretty pretty easily.

1178
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:59,760
I would just I don't even remember where I found

1179
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:07,439
that article. But also there's a book. Just read John

1180
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:12,600
mcguckin's book. I think he covers this as well. So yeah,

1181
01:15:14,279 --> 01:15:15,800
off the top of my head, I don't remember what

1182
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:18,119
the solution is. It's getting late. I'm getting kind of tired.

1183
01:15:18,199 --> 01:15:21,479
So is there any more any more easy ones? Maybe

1184
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:23,399
we can we can call it to a closer.

1185
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's there's some short ones. If the father and

1186
01:15:28,279 --> 01:15:30,600
son of different person's with the same essence, like a

1187
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,039
human father and son, what differentiates is from polytheism?

1188
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:38,680
Speaker 1: No, No, the analogy is made between a father and

1189
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:42,079
a son, just a show at the level of nature, right,

1190
01:15:42,399 --> 01:15:44,680
the father gives birth to a son who possesses the

1191
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:48,319
same nature. That's all the analogies intended to show. Obviously,

1192
01:15:48,399 --> 01:15:52,239
humans are two distinct beings. The father and the son

1193
01:15:52,279 --> 01:15:56,960
are not separate, distinct beings. So I'm not extending the

1194
01:15:57,039 --> 01:16:00,239
level of analogy beyond just possessing the same nature.

1195
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:10,319
Speaker 5: This is one did Saint Justin think the son's beginning

1196
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:12,199
was by the will of the father?

1197
01:16:12,359 --> 01:16:13,399
Speaker 6: What do we make of that.

1198
01:16:15,359 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 1: I think that there's one statement in Justin that people

1199
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:22,039
call into question from memory, but I think there's also

1200
01:16:22,119 --> 01:16:25,640
other statements in Saint Justin where he seems to pretty

1201
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:31,600
consistently uphold the eternal generation. But there is a sense

1202
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:33,720
in which, for example, we were talking about this the

1203
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:34,199
other day in.

1204
01:16:34,199 --> 01:16:39,600
Speaker 2: The discord with Lewis, you could in a like, if.

1205
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: There's a term for this type of willing, it's you

1206
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:49,319
could call it something like willing by acquiescence. Like if

1207
01:16:49,319 --> 01:16:52,439
I have a son and he's the direct offering of

1208
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:56,000
my nature, I'm also at the same time, in a

1209
01:16:56,079 --> 01:16:57,840
sense willing him to be right.

1210
01:16:58,399 --> 01:17:00,600
Speaker 2: So just because I I'm.

1211
01:17:01,399 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 1: I'm agreeing with what happens according to nature, doesn't mean

1212
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,680
that I am causing it to happen by will.

1213
01:17:09,039 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

1214
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:14,800
Speaker 6: Do you want to go any further?

1215
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 5: Uh?

1216
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:17,119
Speaker 2: How many more?

1217
01:17:17,239 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 10: Left?

1218
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:19,039
Speaker 5: A few?

1219
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:22,399
Speaker 10: There's also a couple of super chats Jake.

1220
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:27,640
Speaker 1: All right, let's see. So all I see is one

1221
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:31,960
super chat from Nico. It says, thank you, Jay, You're welcome, Nico,

1222
01:17:32,239 --> 01:17:33,039
much appreciated.

1223
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, we have like eight more questions. We can just

1224
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:46,920
call it here and everyone write down your questions. Okay,

1225
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,119
So you don't have to get them and ask another time.

1226
01:17:49,199 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I'll just continue in the discord for the

1227
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:52,239
last