WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:07.960 Oh giez, folks, it's showtime. 2 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:10.599 People say, good money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.560 When they go out to a theater, they want cold sodas, 4 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:17.199 hot popcorn, and no monsters in the protection booth. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.199 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 6 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:20.920 Cut it off. 7 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:01.960 It begins with seduction, the lady. 8 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:06.439 It leads to betrayal. 9 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:09.159 You're working, Sam Angela, don't tell me you're not because. 10 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:09.719 I wrote the book. 11 00:01:09.959 --> 00:01:11.359 What do you sell anyway? 12 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:13.920 Self confidence? You're not skimming it? 13 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:19.040 Oh well, you know, put the book here in the. 14 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:26.760 Book there, ski man. I can walk away from it 15 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:29.280 any time I want. I've heard that before. 16 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:32.079 And it ends with murder. 17 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:37.239 Yeah, haven't got the stomach for it. 18 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:44.239 Academy Award nominee for Best Actress, Angelica Houston John Cusack, 19 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:48.040 I want to learn everything. I want to be a 20 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:51.439 crypted and the Academy Award nominee for Best Supporting Actress 21 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:52.239 Annette Benning. 22 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:55.599 I was teen ten years with the best in the business. 23 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:58.400 I'm still the best long contract. 24 00:01:57.959 --> 00:01:58.760 For you'll ever seen. 25 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:01.840 In the highly acclaimed new thriller from the director of 26 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:09.199 Dangerous Liaisons and producer Martin Scorsese, Have Goodfellas, Who's Conning 27 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:13.439 who the Martin Scorsese production of a Stephen Frears thriller, 28 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:17.280 The Grifters. 29 00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.960 Welcome to the projection booth. I'm your host, Mike White, 30 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:25.319 joining me once again as mister Jedediah Ayers. 31 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:26.479 Hello, Hello. 32 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:29.439 Also back in the booth is mister Andrew Netti. 33 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:31.439 You told Bilinga what she pitched. 34 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:35.240 We wrap up November twenty twenty four with a look 35 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.879 at Stephen Frears's The Grifters, Based on a book by 36 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.520 Jim Thompson and adapted by Donald Westlake. The film stars 37 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:46.520 Angelica Houston as Lily Dylon, a grifter who's down for 38 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:50.360 the long con changing the odds at horse races. She 39 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.319 is reunited with her estranged son Roy played by John Cusack, 40 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:58.759 and meets Roy's girlfriend Myra, played by Annette Benning. They 41 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:01.680 play in a messy world to grifting, where double crossing 42 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:05.879 is a way of life. Killer, cast killer, script killer, everything. 43 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:08.280 We will be spoiling this film as we go along, 44 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:10.439 so if you don't want anything ruin, turn off the 45 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:14.240 podcast and watch the film. Just as an aside, we 46 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:19.599 just recorded this whole GD episode with the record button off, 47 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.680 So if we refer to as I said before, that's 48 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.719 what we're talking about. So, yes, you did miss a 49 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:30.520 great conversation. Hopefully we can do it again. So, Jenniediah, 50 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:33.599 when was the first time you saw The Grifters and 51 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:34.520 what did you think? 52 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:37.800 The Grifters was a big film for me in that 53 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:41.719 it introduced me to Jim Thompson and he became a 54 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:45.520 favorite author later on. I don't remember the actual viewing, 55 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:50.080 but I remember being very aware of the movie, thinking 56 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:54.280 John Cusack looked really cool, and the poster and the 57 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:59.039 little snippets of dialogue sounded meat in the trailers. When 58 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:02.599 I did actually see the film sometime in the early nineties, 59 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:08.000 probably by ninety three or ninety four, anyway, it just 60 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:10.520 seemed like something that had always been part of my life, 61 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:14.120 because it just felt like a piece of me had 62 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.879 been captured and put on screen and I got to 63 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:19.360 see it. And for the last thirty years, I've watched 64 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:24.759 the movie many times, and I've read Jim Thompson books 65 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.879 and enjoyed those, and it was just one of those 66 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:31.120 things that when it came out and I saw it, 67 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:33.040 I just I knew it was for me, and it 68 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:37.040 ended up changing kind of the course of my life, 69 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:41.319 defining my interests and things I would pursue and enjoy. 70 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:43.120 Let me tell you a story. 71 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:47.639 In the early nineties, I was living in a small 72 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:53.800 Southeast Asian country called Laos in Vianchan was Communist controlled 73 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.680 and quite isolated. We didn't have a TV, but we 74 00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:01.879 could rent a vis player and TA locally. It was 75 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.439 one shop that sold VHS tapes and they had a 76 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:10.319 selection of about five Dix English language movies. I remember 77 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.160 Perfilm was one of them, the first Dolph Lunger and 78 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:17.079 The Tunersher was one of them, and The Grifters was. 79 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:17.519 One of them. 80 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:21.040 I watched all of those films countless times until we 81 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:23.600 discovered that we crossed the river and go to Bangkok 82 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:27.120 by bootleg VHS tapes and bring them back. But anyway, 83 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.240 I would have watched The Grifters first then, and I 84 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:32.720 didn't really have a great deal of context for it. 85 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.199 I hadn't really got into crime cinema. 86 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:37.920 I hadn't really even gotten to cinema yet, and I 87 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:39.879 had only just started reading crime fiction. 88 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.519 But I really loved this film. 89 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:45.480 There are certain themes in the film which I know 90 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:48.040 we're going to talk about the scene with Bobo and 91 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:52.639 Lily and the Orangers are the ending, which always stuck 92 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.800 with me when I first saw it and still stick 93 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.000 with me, which I think about a lot. And I 94 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:02.079 just think the whole package of the film, that the cast, 95 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:08.639 the script, the story, it's darkness, the whole package kind 96 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:09.759 of works for me. 97 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:14.160 So I saw this one probably on VHS. I didn't 98 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.680 have to rent a TV and VCR to see this 99 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:21.079 like you did, but definitely rented it. Probably. I might 100 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:22.920 have been working at Blockbuster when I saw it. 101 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:23.800 Now. 102 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:27.480 I probably talked about this on The Better Off Dead 103 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.120 one crazy summer episode we did a while back. But 104 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.600 I grew up just absolutely loving John Cusack, just could 105 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:37.360 not get enough of him, really love the sure thing 106 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:40.959 the afore mentioned two movies I talked about. Eventually, I 107 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:43.079 would see Tape Heads and fall in love with that, 108 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.079 but my love of him started to fade when it 109 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.800 came to say anything. For whatever reason, I just really 110 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:54.639 disliked that film, like the twist of the crime and 111 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:56.879 the father and all this kind of stuff, and just 112 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.800 Lloyd always creaked me out a little little bit. But 113 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.839 he did feel a little bit like a con man 114 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.639 in that movie. This whole thing of kickboxing, the sport 115 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:09.480 of the future and just that he wanted to be 116 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.399 with Aoni Sky and kickbox his life. 117 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:13.120 It was a stalking. 118 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:13.639 It was just. 119 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.160 It was stalking and basically just wore her down essentially. 120 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:23.680 Yeah. I started to the Bloomers off the Rose with 121 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:26.839 that movie. And when I saw The Grifters the first time, 122 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:30.959 I really didn't like the movie because this was my 123 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:35.079 own mistake because I thought that Roy was the hero 124 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:38.160 of the piece. And now watching it again all these 125 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:41.759 years later, I'm like, oh no, this is the Lily story. 126 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:46.120 This is not Roy's story at all. So I really 127 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.920 because I was twenty when I saw it the first time, 128 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:52.720 I was too stupid to appreciate this movie. So now 129 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:57.040 all these years later, I can finally say that I 130 00:07:57.079 --> 00:07:59.680 really liked The Grifters. I was really glad to do 131 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.959 this dive, really happy to read the Jim Thompson book 132 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.040 because anytime I read his stuff, I absolutely love it. 133 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.240 It's one of those I've talked about this before with 134 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:11.920 other filmmakers where it's like I don't want to dive 135 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:15.439 in headfirst and see everything, you know. I don't want 136 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:18.639 to check out every single Fellini film all at once. 137 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:21.399 I just want to every few years, you know, even 138 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.519 with Jean Pierre Melville. Okay, there's still a few of 139 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:27.120 his that I haven't seen, but I'm just waiting for 140 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:29.800 that right day to break it out from the wine 141 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.480 cellar and be like, ah, here we go, here's the 142 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:34.879 Silence of the Sea. Kind of the same thing with 143 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:38.080 Jim Thompson. It's okay, pretty soon I'm going to be 144 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:41.440 watching Siri Noir. So I need to read Hell of 145 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:44.840 a Woman. I can't wait to finally dig into that one. 146 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:47.200 This was great being able to read that book and 147 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:49.720 just dive into this film and learn about all the 148 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:53.080 behind the scenes. And then, yeah, now I can appreciate 149 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:55.480 that it's Donald Westlake doing the script. I could have 150 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:58.639 appreciated that probably twenty years ago, but not thirty years ago. 151 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:04.159 It's I just really now am finally falling in love 152 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.679 with this film all of these years later. But then also, 153 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:10.200 this movie has everything that I love. When it comes 154 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:14.279 to character actors. There are no small roles in this movie. 155 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:18.080 Even the four sailors that he's playing against on the train, 156 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:21.480 I recognize at least two of these faces. John Grys 157 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:26.480 as the friend of the drunk guy who costs Angelica Houston, 158 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:29.399 you can barely see Grys's face because he's hidden behind 159 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:33.879 his friend on screen. Or Xander Berkley as the Arizona 160 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:38.240 police detective who takes Cuzach over to see the dead body, 161 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:41.679 just all of those, Every single little part in this 162 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.879 movie is so well cast and with so many people 163 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.919 that you would just start to see over and over again. 164 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:52.679 This was like I was really starting to see Tobolowski, 165 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:55.000 who I know I'd been working for a longer time, 166 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:57.799 but Tobolowski going to show up again in a few 167 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:01.679 years here in Groundhog, where Xander Berkeley is going to 168 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:04.360 show up in Leaving Las Vegas, and we're just going 169 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:06.919 to keep getting these faces. But I think this was 170 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:09.480 honestly the first time I ever saw and at Benny, 171 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:13.679 because at this point I hadn't seen Valmont, and maybe 172 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:17.159 I saw Bugsy before I saw this film, but she 173 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.679 was this amazing breath of fresh air because who is 174 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:23.000 this woman and she's able to turn it on and off. 175 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:26.279 She's got that almost Betty Boop type voice that she 176 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:29.120 uses at times, but then when she does her flashback, 177 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:33.360 she's speaking in a light Southern drawl to it, and 178 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.039 everybody from this would be either on their way to 179 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.039 bigger and better things, or there were character actors in 180 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.759 here like Henry Jones, who probably this was probably one 181 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.440 of his later films, if not one of his last ones. 182 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.399 Every face in here is just fantastic. The casting of 183 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:53.879 this movie is so well done. And now I finally 184 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:56.399 feel like I appreciate this movie probably the way that 185 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:58.919 you guys did thirty years ago. 186 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.679 Know that I appreciated it the way that it deserves 187 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:08.759 to be appreciated. For a while, I just felt, Oh, 188 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:12.159 it's super cool, and then oh what a bummer. But 189 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:16.720 multiple viewings and certainly a maturation process on my part, 190 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:22.720 have brought about a deeper appreciation, a really richer appreciation. 191 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:29.000 It's it's a really amazingly textured and layered film and 192 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:33.480 book and adaptation process. It was all pretty masterful. 193 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.960 Yeah, the adaptation of this it is so well done. 194 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:42.039 Donald Westlake knows what to keep, knows what to throw away. 195 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.000 We'll talk about some of the deleted scenes and things, 196 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:49.240 but he knew how to tell the story, the order 197 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:53.879 in which to tell this story, and just the emphasizing 198 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.480 of the right things. And I love that whole story 199 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:59.840 about how he did a draft and gave it over 200 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:02.759 to Stephen Frears, the director, and Frears is, yeah, no, 201 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:06.000 this isn't really hitting it for me, and Westlakes, Oh 202 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.919 what do you want? And Frears goes through the novels 203 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:11.200 just starts pointing out all these scenes that he really 204 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.600 wants to have in there, and Wes like's like, oh 205 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:19.399 you like trash basic. I thought you wanted this elevated 206 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:22.399 as I can roll around the gutter too, So I 207 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:24.879 was just like, yes, this is great. Donald, you did 208 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:29.519 a fantastic job. He knows enough to get the hell 209 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.360 out of the way when it comes to so much 210 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:37.840 of Thompson's pros and being able to put the descriptions 211 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.639 inside of characters mouths, like things that Thompson is telling 212 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.279 us directly. He will then have characters start to say, so, 213 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:47.799 like the whole thing we're talking about the oranges, like 214 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.799 he's writing all of that He's talking about like this 215 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.000 is an old thing. You beat someone with one with 216 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.960 oranges and they get these horrific bruises on them. But 217 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:00.159 if you do it wrong then it might burst to 218 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.600 an organ and kill the person. But yet he rather 219 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.759 than there's no voiceover in this other than a little 220 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.240 bit of an intro from courtesy of Martin Scorsesey. There's 221 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:15.360 not any voice over telling these things. Instead it's Pat 222 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.720 Hengel saying, Okay, Lily, tell me about the oranges, and 223 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.080 making her say it, and making her think about it 224 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:25.600 and making us think about it, and her just on 225 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:30.159 the edge of hysterics with the catching her voice where 226 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.000 she is just about to lose her shit. I love 227 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.799 that kind of stuff. I love how there's other times 228 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.480 where it's Henry Jones giving this information that was written 229 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:42.799 in the book, but here he's like expounding it, talking 230 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:45.759 about how all those women they got that little piggy 231 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:47.879 bang between their legs and I don't want any women 232 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:50.120 staying at this hotel because they're just going to be 233 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.440 working on their backs. And I'm like, this is brilliant stuff. 234 00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:55.679 And this is the reason why you read Jim Thompson, 235 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:59.360 and now you get to hear these incredible actors deliver 236 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.639 this kind of exposition, and I just fucking love it. 237 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:06.440 The acting and the caliber of actors and the quantity 238 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.879 and quality of character actors in this movie is beyond belief. 239 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:14.879 Yeah, it's funny. And somebody else was saying about fears, 240 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:19.919 how much. He just loves the worse things. He wants 241 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.759 his characters to be worse and worse, He wants the 242 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.279 situations to be worse and worse, and trash was a 243 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:30.759 word that was thrown around in that documentary about Stephen 244 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:32.519 Frears to Watch Last Night. 245 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.279 Weslake really does a great job in here, just crafting 246 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:40.759 this and knowing when to show us things when not to. 247 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:46.360 Apparently he wrote a lot of the flashbacks that we 248 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.679 don't get, which I think we're really better off for 249 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.799 not having those. Just keep it contemporary, like when we 250 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.159 have the flashbacks that we do. And I think there's 251 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.679 three main flashbacks in the movie. One of them is 252 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:03.159 just flashing back to something that was done off screen 253 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:07.080 off of Roy's radar. In the book he figures it out, 254 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.440 but in the movie they actually show it, but as 255 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:12.159 that flashback, and I want to say it might even 256 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:15.639 be his thought process a little bit as well. There's 257 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:21.240 the one of Moira and oh gosh, JT. Walsh's the 258 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:25.759 Langley might be yeah, leangle called Langley and J. T. 259 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:28.559 Walsh is the one who plays him just absolutely brilliantly, 260 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:33.120 another wonderful character actor. And then the other one is 261 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.879 it's not too far in the past. Roy's what twenty five. 262 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:40.360 It feels like this might have happened when he was eighteen. 263 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.480 He doesn't look too different or anything other than this 264 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:47.440 member's only jacket or whatever that he's wearing, and that's 265 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.039 the origin of Roy as grifter. We get to actually 266 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:55.960 see him meet his mentor and hear his mentor spiel. 267 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.720 Other than that, it's all like in the present, and 268 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.759 that I think really helps out quite a bit that 269 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:07.000 we aren't just dealing with Rory's childhood or going back 270 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.039 to earlier times with us. Apparently Weslake wrote all of 271 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:15.320 these flashbacks and fears might have even shot all these flashbacks, 272 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.799 and I'm pretty sure that he did because Juliette Landau 273 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:22.639 Martin Lando's daughter, who had a pretty good career of 274 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:25.399 her own. I mostly remember her from ed Wood where 275 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.120 she's no no liquids. She's just amazing in that where 276 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.960 she doesn't ever drink water. She was playing a young lily. 277 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:35.919 But yeah, they had all of these scenes that were 278 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:37.960 in there, and I'm glad they took him out because 279 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.559 this movie just runs so tight and so taut. But 280 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:46.120 back in Roy's childhood, if he say he broke his arm, 281 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:48.759 she'd be like, oh, it's only one arm, And if 282 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:53.080 he did something, she would just play it down so much. 283 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.000 And that's one of the final lines of the book, 284 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:00.399 is when she accidentally slashes his throat, she goes only 285 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:02.519 one throat, so good. 286 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:07.119 The thing I found most interesting on the two viewings 287 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.920 of the film that I did this episode of the 288 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.839 show is how it occupies and I'm going to use 289 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.920 this word and you can't stop me. It occupies a 290 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:25.720 liminal space between are sort of older forties fifties peel 291 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:30.240 of a film noir and something that feels also very 292 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:36.160 nineties in terms of its look and its sensibility and 293 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:39.200 the actors, as you say, and I just felt I 294 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.200 find that fascinating how they did that. There's all those 295 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:46.000 visual cues to those older films, but it still feels 296 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:49.119 quite contemporary in its own way because some respects the 297 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:52.000 grift has just become mainstream now, but we were far 298 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.279 less aware of it then, So I to think I 299 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.119 found absolutely fascinating about it and how they did that, 300 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.519 how they they're dressed kind of nineties. 301 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.920 But Roy lives in that old La hotel. 302 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.279 I don't know what hotel it is, or if it's 303 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.279 still there the bright and then they're at the track. 304 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:14.519 Just a very film noire place to be, but their 305 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:18.160 sensibility and the way they are able to go full 306 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:20.640 bore on some of the more adult themes like the 307 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:26.160 incest and the self loathing about their lives and to 308 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.640 have more than they've got feels very contemporary. 309 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.000 I'll have that I used the word liminal at work 310 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.680 a few weeks ago, and my boss tried to correct me, 311 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.680 thinking that liminal wasn't a real word. 312 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:41.440 So I thought you were going to say you used 313 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:43.599 the word liminal, and now you're managing the place. 314 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:46.680 Now I own the whole company. 315 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:47.559 Is that's right. 316 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.119 We make matchsticks and that's what I sell. Go around 317 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.000 from a bar to bar and I put down a 318 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.799 twenty and lift it up and there's a ten on 319 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.359 there and hopefully I don't get belted in the stomach 320 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.599 with the wrong end of a baseball bat. Yeah, which 321 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.440 is very smart too that we start the whole movie 322 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.039 with Lily, But even before that, we start with this 323 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:17.799 amazing black and white montage of Los Angeles you're talking about, 324 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.000 like film noir, and just setting us in that whole space. 325 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.799 The idea of this is such an LA story and 326 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:28.359 to have this very I'm not an LA guy, but 327 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:32.359 even I recognize this architecture that's going on. I recognize 328 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:35.960 some of these streets just mostly because of movies. And 329 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:38.480 to have that and have a little bit of color 330 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:42.160 with the credits, the blues and the reds and that 331 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.920 nice little voiceover from Martin Scressezi at the beginning, uncredited, 332 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.359 but the executive producer stepping in to do that. But 333 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:52.920 to start it off with the black and white I 334 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.480 thought was really smart. It really reminded me of Roman 335 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:59.079 Polansky and the way that he starts off Chinatown with 336 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.839 the kind of muted opening credits and then going right 337 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.319 to those black and white photographs that Jack Nicholson is 338 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.000 showing to Bert Young, with those little squeals that Bert 339 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.519 Young is doing as his hard at breaking to see 340 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:16.839 his wife in flagrante with another man. But yeah, it's 341 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:18.880 the same thing here where we've got all of these 342 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:21.920 black and white photos and then we start with Lily 343 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:26.039 coming into the racetrack and just she's got the white 344 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.319 hair driving out that think of lighter colored vehicles, and 345 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.480 you've also got that quality of light of the southern 346 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.119 California sky that Priers was talking about on the commentary, 347 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:41.480 where it's just everything feels so sun baked and drained. 348 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:46.400 I know they did some flashing on the film to 349 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.000 draw that out as well, But then the whole idea too, 350 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.480 that they were avoiding red as their color palette until 351 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:56.119 the movie went on. As the movie goes forward, they're 352 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:00.839 slowly introducing red until you get this blood bath at 353 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.640 the end, but not only just in him Cusac with 354 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.839 the red all over his shirt, but then also the 355 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.279 red dress that Lily's wearing at the end, which I 356 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.880 think you guys mentioned was also moirist dress as well, 357 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:17.519 or might she was wearing red as well, And I 358 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:18.119 love that. 359 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.519 I love that little trope and a lot of films, 360 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:27.200 especially friend films and films noir, where somebody starts off 361 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:32.000 with a very flite, pristine outfit and by the end 362 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:37.079 of the movie it's totally trashed, it's dirty, it's ripped, 363 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.799 it's blood soaked. It's brings me ahead of Alfredo Garcia 364 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.640 basically that transition, as he's in that white suit the 365 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:50.519 whole time, and Lily's white outfit at the beginning of 366 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:54.039 the film and it's a different outfit, but it's that 367 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:59.119 I like that transition. That sematic transition worked very nicely 368 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.960 for me. It's also the merging of the Lily and. 369 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.960 Moira characters way that they start to basically by the 370 00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:11.000 end of it, they're wearing that same red dress. They're 371 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:14.759 merging together as characters, which works in terms of that 372 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.680 lot that loot surprise they have when Moira tries to 373 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:24.559 kill Lily, but Lily actually kills Mura instead, and they 374 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.000 think it's pasts Moira's body off as her own, so 375 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:29.720 that's her out from being. 376 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:30.480 Chased by the mob. 377 00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:35.160 But also it's the way they fuse those characters together 378 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.720 in terms of their sexuality in Roy's mind, I think, 379 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.039 because I mean, the source of the incest or the 380 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:45.680 sort of hint of attraction between was not really a hint. 381 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.920 Come on, let's talk like adults here. The very strong 382 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:53.880 influence of attraction between Roy and Lily, which in the 383 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:55.839 book is even. 384 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.240 Ladder on even more strongly. 385 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.960 It's pretty full on. It's one of the most powerful 386 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.400 lines in the book. At the very end, when Lily's 387 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:08.240 just killed Moira, Lily's on the run from Bobo justice, 388 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.039 Roy finds Lily rifling around the back of his clown 389 00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.960 pictures his massive shape for his money, and Lily wants 390 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:18.319 the money to get away from Bobo. And Lily says 391 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:21.119 to Roy, what if I told you I wasn't your mother. 392 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.000 It's a big mood shift. There's several mood shifts in 393 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:30.319 that film. One mood shift is when Moira and Roy 394 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:33.079 a talking and Moira confronts him about the fact that 395 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:35.400 you're a grifter. I know you're a grifter. Don't treat 396 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.079 me like a square. I'm a grifter to it, And 397 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.119 there's a whole shift there. And there's another shift very 398 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:44.960 late in the film when Lily says to Roy, what 399 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.160 if I selled you I wasn't your mother? And it 400 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.640 opens up the possibility that I can do this thing 401 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.119 I want to do that I'm not able to do otherwise, 402 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.839 and Roy's struggling with that. In the book, it's even 403 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:05.200 more for long. I mean, the film, Lily is mortified 404 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:09.440 when she kills Roy, weeps over his corpse, but in 405 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:12.960 the books she's life. I think, what do we say 406 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:15.319 that anybody got study one? You already got one throws? 407 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.759 What does he say, yeah, got one throat? And takes 408 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:23.319 the money and just goes. She is one hard, hard hussy. 409 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:24.359 You have a film. 410 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.200 Yeah, though I do appreciate Jed and I we talked 411 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.480 about Elevator to Gallows years and years ago, and this 412 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:34.359 is the opposite way with her going down the elevator, 413 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:36.480 and we do have a shot of Moira going down 414 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.200 in an elevator prior to that, but with that shot 415 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:43.599 of Lily going down after she's murdered her own son, 416 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.839 and yet she's completely put together when she's going down 417 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.559 the elevator, and you get them multiple shots of her 418 00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:54.920 going down in the elevator. I love the focus on her, 419 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.880 how it changes and eventually comes into focus then goes 420 00:24:57.920 --> 00:24:59.920 out of focus, because just shooting that type of shit 421 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:04.039 must have been very difficult. But yes has the wherewithal 422 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:07.400 to get out of there, to take his car, to 423 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:10.640 leave that Cadillac of Moira's, and to make it look 424 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:16.240 like Moira killed him or whatever happens, Moira is to 425 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:20.359 blame and Lily gets off scott free and can start 426 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.480 a new life. But to your point, Andrew, I don't 427 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:24.960 know how much of a new life she's going to 428 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:27.559 start because all of the things that you were saying, 429 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:29.720 as far as I can stop whenever I want to, 430 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:35.359 it's such an alcoholics refrain, I can quit whenever I want. 431 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:38.720 Yet the constant draw back to it, and even when 432 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:40.960 he's trying to go on vacation and go down to 433 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.319 La Joya with Moira, and yet here it is on 434 00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:47.799 the train doing the whole tat thing with the dice 435 00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:50.759 and caging drinks and getting more and more money off 436 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.799 of these guys, basically financing his trip. I was thinking 437 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:55.279 about doing the same thing when I go out to 438 00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.720 Vegas in a couple of weeks, and I wouldn't be 439 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:01.119 surprised that if Lily is an odd to the whole 440 00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:05.079 Lilith myth myth as well, I'm sure they didn't choose 441 00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:08.079 these character names just out of a hat. And then 442 00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:10.759 I love that preres is, Oh, this is all multice Falcon. 443 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:14.880 This is Mary Astor going to hell after betraying Sam 444 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:20.000 Spade in the maltice Falcon. And he knows that who 445 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:25.039 he's dealing with, Angelica Houston and the legacy that she's 446 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.279 bringing to it with her father and all of his work. 447 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:30.079 But you're talking about the white suit before Jededie, and 448 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:32.799 I was thinking about that white suit that he's wearing 449 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:38.039 in Treasure Madre. Yeah, it's just like and yeah, doesn't 450 00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:39.759 he wear one in Chinatown as well? 451 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:43.839 Like John Houston? Yeah, no, I thought you were talking 452 00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:49.160 about John Houston, but Treasures Madre was he's in that. 453 00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:52.119 He's Oh, he's in this the guy that is constantly 454 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.599 getting hit up by Humphrey Bogart, could you help a 455 00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.839 fellow America who's down on his luck? And Yeah, just 456 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.839 keeps hitting the same mark every single time. I only 457 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:07.920 know it because of the Warner Brothers cartoon with Penguin 458 00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:11.400 where Hvrey Bogar kept showing up and asking him to 459 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:13.680 help out a fellow American who's down on his luck. 460 00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:18.319 So took me twenty years before I finally connected with 461 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:20.960 the Treasure of Sierra Madra and said, oh my god, 462 00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:25.359 now I get the joke again. Just the what Angelica 463 00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:32.240 Houston brings to this role is just amazing the sharpness 464 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:36.519 of her dialogue, the sideline glances that she gets, just 465 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:40.160 the ascid in her voice when she's talking with Moira. 466 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.440 I absolutely loved that little moment where she quote unquote 467 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:49.000 accidentally drops her keys and picks those up and basically 468 00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:54.559 shoves her ass and Moira's face. You're talking about the merging, Andrew, 469 00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:57.880 and just the time that we see all three of 470 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:02.279 those characters together quote quote is right there at the beginning, 471 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:06.039 with that amazing split screen effect that they're doing, and 472 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:08.680 following all three of those characters and then bringing them 473 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.680 together in one frame with the two women on either 474 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:14.519 side and John Cusack in the middle, all with their 475 00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.759 sunglasses on, all of them checking out the rest of 476 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:21.519 everybody around them. But that, oh god, that shot is 477 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:22.680 just incredible. 478 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:28.440 Yeah, and he goes into Bennigan's. Bennigans Benigans, Andrew, you're 479 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:32.839 not an American, you wouldn't know Benigan's is. Yeah, it is. 480 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:38.079 Hell on earths, it is. It's a shitty chain restaurant. 481 00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:42.000 If you remember the film office space, the restaurant where 482 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.599 Jennifer Aniston is working is very similar to Bennigan's. They 483 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:47.519 call it Chotchkes and she has to have all those 484 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:51.839 buttons and things on her uniform. Eighteen pieces of flair 485 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:55.400 or something they say. But yeah, it's very similar to that. 486 00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:59.000 Feeling good in the neighborhood I think was the catchphrase 487 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.720 for them. 488 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:03.759 That's the moment at the beginning of the film that 489 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:07.400 really places it firmly in the present for me is 490 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:11.480 that you had all this cool throwback film noir photography 491 00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:17.799 and this great Elmer Bernstein's score, and it felt so 492 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.599 very classical film noir, and then you got the shock 493 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.559 of the color photography of the three characters. But it's 494 00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:31.839 that he goes into Benigan's and there's country music blasting 495 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:35.440 on the saying in downtown LA for some reason that 496 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.000 firmly puts it in the present for me, or in 497 00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:40.599 the nineteen nineties for me. 498 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:46.559 Bennigan's walked so that Outback could run. And I'm sure 499 00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:50.720 you know Outback Steakhouse Andrews since it is Australian themed 500 00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:55.799 and they have boomerangs and pictures of Koalas Slalas. Yes. Yeah, 501 00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:57.799 you go in and you say I would like some 502 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.319 shrimp on the barbie, and they are very accommodated. 503 00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:05.960 Have they all got their hat trip of cool some Yeah, fantastic, They've. 504 00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:06.880 Got your books on the show. 505 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:10.599 They really every morning they released twenty thousand flies into 506 00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:11.200 the restaurant. 507 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:12.200 Yeah. 508 00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:15.359 I don't know if he lies to us or how 509 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:17.440 he states it, but I swear he says that Roy 510 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.119 will be dead in three days now he would be 511 00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:23.240 if Lily doesn't intervene and show up back in his 512 00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:28.400 life and have the hospital take him. But it's a 513 00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:31.119 great wait foreshadow that's not going to be three days. 514 00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:33.279 It'll probably be about three weeks. I think it's the 515 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.920 length of this novel, if even that, because. 516 00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:40.559 Things happen fast, and Lily cuts through the whole bureaucretit 517 00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:44.720 the lies of the US health system by basically just saying, 518 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.720 if my son Dot you're going to live, otherwise I'll 519 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:49.359 have you killed. 520 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.519 To that doctor, I'll always want to site to a doctor. 521 00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:56.279 I've always want to say it to a bartender. 522 00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:04.039 Yeah, yeah, I just love that delivery. This was probably 523 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:06.799 the first time that I saw Anette Benning in a movie. 524 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:09.680 I don't I don't know if I had seen Bugsy 525 00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:13.200 yet or not. Maybe I had, But she really makes 526 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.799 an impression in this movie, and I think she does 527 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:19.519 such a great job. I was shocked to hear how 528 00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.359 easy going she was with the nudity on set. Oh, 529 00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:25.720 rather than my body double. If you want to put 530 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:27.519 me here, you can do that if it's going to 531 00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:31.160 save you time. Because this is an independent film now 532 00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.599 put out by Mirror Max apparently what was there. There's 533 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:38.480 that story about Harvey bidding against himself because nobody else 534 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:43.640 even wanted this movie basickly. But yeah, there's a great 535 00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.839 behind the scenes documentary on this that came out on 536 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:48.519 one of the Blu rays. It took me a little 537 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:53.160 bit to fine, but really some incredible stories and it's 538 00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:56.079 really nice. You get to hear from two of the producers, 539 00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:59.440 maybe three, but at least two of them, and we'll 540 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:01.680 actually hear from them a little bit later in the show, 541 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.599 which is pretty cool that I was able to speak 542 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:06.960 to them, and I hope people don't mind. But I 543 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:08.880 had to ask Barbara defeed out a whole lot of 544 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:11.519 questions about Goodfellows while I was at it, just because 545 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:13.680 when was I going to get that chance again. 546 00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:15.519 The good Fellow's episode. 547 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:19.480 Yeah, I guess. So if I ever get the bravery 548 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:21.799 to do the good Fellaw's episode, it's like. 549 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:23.359 Oh, I'm down for the Goodfellow's episode. 550 00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:26.519 It's like the Mount Rushmower of Amazing films, And I 551 00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:28.480 don't know if I can climb that peak, even though 552 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:32.279 about Rushmore isn't really that tall, but I'll look like 553 00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:35.880 carry Grant just crawling around on Lincoln's nose, and. 554 00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.519 That Benning did make an impression in this one, And 555 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.880 you're right, it wasn't just the nude scenes, though certainly 556 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:46.440 as a teenage viewer, they made an impression. I was like, 557 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:48.920 isn't that the lady from the Great Outdoors? 558 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:51.359 It was the John Candy movie. 559 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:58.680 Yeah, Ackroyd's wise and she talks about masturbating up against 560 00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:01.960 the dryer when it's or the washer when it's on 561 00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:02.720 spin cycle. 562 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.400 Oh god, I forgot how that had made an impression clearly, 563 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.480 and then I saw the rafters and it was great, 564 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:12.920 but no doing the channeling. We talked about how she 565 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.240 was very much channeling Gloria Graham in The Big Heat, 566 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.160 and I don't think we even mentioned though, that she 567 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:23.400 played Gloria Graham years later in film Stars Don't Die 568 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:28.079 in Liverpool, which I thought makes an interesting transition to 569 00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:30.680 start her career there, and not that her career is 570 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.720 over now, but all these years later, actually get around 571 00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.839 the plane Gloria Graham. That was an interesting exercise. I 572 00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:41.359 watched The Grifters and the film Stars Don't Die in 573 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.559 Liverpool back to back a few weeks ago. 574 00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:46.279 As part of the thirty watched for these podcasts. 575 00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:50.000 Yeah, no, there was thirty Stephen Frears films, I watched 576 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.839 more like ninety five I think we counted. 577 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.680 So yeah, just some light viewing. 578 00:33:57.079 --> 00:33:59.920 A little light viewing. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, big ee 579 00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:03.960 to the grifters, to filmstars don't like Diane Liverpool, so good. 580 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.400 I recommend that to people as a triple. 581 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:11.119 Bill if memory serves. That didn't Gloria Graham end up 582 00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:15.679 with Nicholas Ray's son, Is that right, Nicholas race son. 583 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:18.960 Yeah, he did after Nicholas Rye. I think that's what 584 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.880 broke the relationship as Yeah, I haven't swatted on Gloria 585 00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:27.119 Graham's life for this episode, so yeah, I'm flying blind 586 00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:27.760 a bit on that one. 587 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:28.599 But yes, she did. 588 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.239 She did end up with She had had an affair 589 00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:34.159 or relationship I think with Nicholas Ray's sun. 590 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:37.280 Yeah, which, Wow, when we're talking about a movie with 591 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:40.639 so much incest, it just yeah, it's a little close 592 00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.920 to home there with that one. Holy shit. Yeah, they 593 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.719 definitely the idea of the incest in this and just 594 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:52.360 that the women are so similar looking, and they get 595 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:55.159 more and more similar looking as the movie goes along, 596 00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:58.559 to the point where we actually have the Francis Bay 597 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:01.360 shows up later in the film as this hotel attendant 598 00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:04.239 and she at one point, you know, when and Nett 599 00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:08.239 Benning comes in, she's, oh, is there something wrong? Oh, oh, 600 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.480 I'm sorry, I thought you were the other lady. Yeah, 601 00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:13.199 And then we're gonna get Harry Jones confusing and then 602 00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:17.880 luckily the police confusing these two ladies. And it's really 603 00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:21.400 just that mark on the hand that tips us off 604 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:26.079 that it's not Lily that is actually Myra. And oh 605 00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.639 the mark on the hand, the cigar burn, the whole 606 00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:34.159 scene with pat Hingele as Bobo justice coming to deliver 607 00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:39.960 some bobo justice to her. Holy shit, that scene leaves 608 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.840 a major impression. And what's the best is that, Yeah, 609 00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:47.639 there's some really awful violence in there, but I think 610 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:51.239 in your mind it was even worse going in and 611 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:54.199 it's almost a relief when you come to a fucking 612 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:56.079 cigar burn on the back of the hand. 613 00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.159 Yeah. 614 00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:00.719 I was once you know, a film lecture where someone 615 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:04.440 asked a question of person, what do you think is 616 00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:07.920 the most disturbing violence you've ever seen. 617 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:08.320 In a movie? 618 00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:12.920 And they brought up, oh, getting beaten with the oranges 619 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:17.599 in the grifters, what was really the most disturbing thing 620 00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:21.280 for me? And like she just talks about it, and 621 00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:26.960 it is just that powerfully delivered the whole making her 622 00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:32.320 stuffs this towel with oranges and described to Pat Hendele 623 00:36:33.079 --> 00:36:37.039 how it's potentially going to, in his words, make you 624 00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:42.000 not shit right the rest of your life. And yeah, 625 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:45.639 it is really unnerving. Great performances on both but great 626 00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:48.559 writing to know that you were going to be able 627 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.960 to get away with something if you could show on TV, 628 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:57.079 but have the impact of such horrific violence delivered just 629 00:36:57.239 --> 00:36:59.320 in the dialogue. It was amazing. 630 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.920 And then he's all chatty and friendly Hu, which I 631 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.440 think is what adds that edge. 632 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.159 Stay into that scene. 633 00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:10.800 You know, I've got to you want to stick around 634 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:13.840 for a drink after he's put the cigarette on her hand, 635 00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:15.880 and of course in the book it's very graphic. She, 636 00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:17.760 of course, as you do when you're in that much 637 00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:23.000 pain and trauma, soils herself and then he you know, 638 00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:25.000 you want to stick around for a drink and she's, oh, no, 639 00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:26.239 I've got to go and see my son. 640 00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:30.239 He's in hospital. How is your son five from me? 641 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:35.519 And then he's absolutely, that's a good thing to have 642 00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:36.480 on a T shirt chat. 643 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:42.039 He's an absolute psychopaths as a mobster. He's not one 644 00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:48.559 of those funny, wise cracking con man type mobsters exactly 645 00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:52.199 how you would expect a powerful mobster to actually be 646 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:54.519 one question, you want. 647 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:58.559 To stick to that story, you want to keep your teeth? Yeah, yeah, 648 00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:00.800 what the fuck are you doing with the sub. 649 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:04.199 And she tells you about what the fuck you're doing 650 00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:04.920 with the sun. 651 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:10.519 The way Thompson describes his knees on her spine while 652 00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:15.159 he's putting that cigarette out on her and just keeping 653 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.360 the skill it took to keep the ember alive on 654 00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:22.480 the cigarette while he's doing that to her, so he's 655 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.800 not putting it out on her, he's using the heat 656 00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:29.320 and burning her. And I don't think they really like 657 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:32.559 they keep the whole thing about the long coat, but 658 00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:37.480 I don't think they really imply. If they do, it's 659 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.159 not very well in the movie that she has soiled 660 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:41.000 herself because. 661 00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:43.360 Because that's why she's wearing the coat. 662 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:47.719 Yeah, but it's not. I don't know. It just you 663 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:51.199 don't see anything, and I know that you wouldn't really 664 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:54.719 I'm not into women peeing on film like some people. 665 00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:55.920 But yeah, I'm. 666 00:38:57.760 --> 00:38:59.639 Yes, is there an inference they have walk. 667 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:03.800 Well, no, just a general thing I think ban to it. 668 00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:06.239 But The Bad Book is a dark, little cookie of 669 00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:09.400 a book. It's really, as I said, the incest is 670 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:13.760 sign's hosted very early and laid on the Moira Lily comparison. 671 00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:16.920 I mean, this is a key constant film in all 672 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:21.199 of Thompson's books, a sort of angst and existential emptiness 673 00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:26.800 of the characters is because in the book, Roy's got 674 00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.599 a sort of straight job as a salesman and does 675 00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:31.199 the grift on the side. 676 00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.239 And he's addicted. He's addicted to the grift. 677 00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:36.679 He can't really get offer even though it's pennanty bullshit grifting, 678 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.800 and they're all looking for something better out of it. 679 00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:46.880 But there's also that whole subplot in the book about Carrell, 680 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:52.440 the nurse in the film that Lily hires the look 681 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:56.159 after Roy, and Roy basically says, you realize one another's 682 00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:58.639 hired you. She's just hired you so I can fuck you, 683 00:39:58.679 --> 00:39:59.880 because she's trying. 684 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:01.639 To wean me off Moira. 685 00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:07.119 But in the book, Carol is a Nazi concentration camp 686 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:11.440 survivor who's been had some horrific experiments on the part 687 00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:15.199 of the Nazis, And there's this whole subplot of Roy 688 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.639 sleeping with her, and as soon as he finds out 689 00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:22.880 that she's a concentration camp survivor, he basically just treats 690 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:27.280 it absolutely and visibly. That is such a dark little subplot. 691 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:31.599 Yeah, it's funny how with this one she gets offended 692 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:34.440 when he says, Oh, my mom hired you to fuck me, 693 00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:38.000 and it's just like, oh, she run basically runs off. 694 00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:42.599 And in the book, it's so much worse, so terrible. 695 00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:46.880 Oh yeah, and you get just it's only a few 696 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:49.639 paragraphs worth of stuff, but your mind just goes to 697 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.280 all these places with the things that happened to Carol, 698 00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.000 to her mom, to her grandmother, how she was a 699 00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:01.280 dacout concentration camp survivor, and it sounds like experimented on 700 00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:05.280 her medically. So Roy's all happy when he's, oh, have 701 00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:07.800 you been with other people? And she's like, oh, yeah, 702 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:11.079 I've had sex before, and she says something like I 703 00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:14.719 can't get pregnant, and she's upset about it. Oh, we 704 00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:17.760 can never have children together. Roy, like she's already planning 705 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.400 the wedding and everything, and he was like Oh, that's great, 706 00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:24.320 let's fuck This is terrific. And then yeah, after they 707 00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:28.920 have sex, she talks about her past and she barely 708 00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:31.480 touches on it, but in your mind you expanded out 709 00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:35.519 to so much because she's talking about her mother and 710 00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:38.960 her grandmother and they're trying to see how young a 711 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:41.880 woman can be or a girl can be before she 712 00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:46.119 can have a baby. And they found out five years 713 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:50.119 old she was able to conceive, and then they sterilized her. 714 00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:53.159 They almost found out when it came to her grandmother, 715 00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:56.239 but they killed her in the process. 716 00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:57.119 Oh. 717 00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.079 It just tears the heart out of it. And then 718 00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:05.360 Roy being such an asshole about it and just his 719 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:10.519 reaction to it, no empathy whatsoever. And that really helps 720 00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:13.679 for me the book where it's like, oh, man, up 721 00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:16.760 till now, I thought Roy was okay, But from this, 722 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:20.960 I know this guy's no good whatsoever. It is just 723 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:27.559 wretched stuff. That was something the whole Communism angle. There's 724 00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:32.159 a real quick mention in the Grifters, and I was like, Oh, 725 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:36.440 he's definitely being ironic here because I knew that he 726 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:39.800 was a Communist because he's talking about he's talking about 727 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:43.280 the fucking Nazis as Roy he's talking about the Nazis, 728 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:46.679 and it's just he gets after he's getting mad at 729 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:53.679 Carol for her telling him her past. He says, after all, 730 00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:57.960 the one time friends, poor fellows were now our friends, 731 00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:00.719 and it would be bad takes to show gas stoves 732 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.440 on television. After all, you couldn't condemn a people, could you, 733 00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:07.400 And what if they had done exactly that themselves, should 734 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:10.719 you make the same regrettable error? After all, they hated 735 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.480 the Reds as much as we did. They were as 736 00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:16.440 eager as we were to blow every stinking Red in 737 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:19.559 the world to Helen gone. And after all, those people 738 00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:23.679 they allegedly sinned against had brought most of the trouble 739 00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:27.079 on themselves. And what he's saying with they had brought 740 00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.480 the trouble on themselves. He's talking about Jewish people, and 741 00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:32.960 I'm just like, holy fuck. And then the next paragraph 742 00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:37.760 is it was their own fault, it was her own fault. 743 00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:41.960 But with him railing against the Reds, I was like, Okay, 744 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:46.760 we're being ironic here. I'm so glad that it's not. 745 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:51.760 I'm glad that Roy Dylan is not Jim Thompson. Of course, 746 00:43:51.880 --> 00:43:55.199 there's nothing in nineteen ninety that is going to line 747 00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.960 up with that, And it's not like she's I don't know, 748 00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.079 like Vietnam survivor or somebody, I don't know what would 749 00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:03.920 be the corollary. There's nothing that can be a corollary 750 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.800 to the Holocaust, guys, I think that's pretty safe to say. 751 00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:13.760 But that removal was very smart. Again going back to 752 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:18.000 Westlake and his adaptation, what he was doing, making the 753 00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:21.920 internal making the descriptions that Thompson is giving us, and 754 00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:25.079 then putting them into the mouths of these characters, taking 755 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:28.800 the description of the hotel where Roy is living at 756 00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:31.840 and putting some of that stuff into the mouth of 757 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.119 Henry Jones as the only I think he's the only 758 00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.400 guy that works at the hotel basically other than the 759 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.920 one maid who he's telling to take any towels that 760 00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:44.440 she finds on the floor and refold rather than launder, 761 00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.519 because it's going to cost him probably a few cents 762 00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:50.639 to launder all those towels. Just refold them. If it's white, 763 00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:54.760 refold it. But yeah, fucking Henry Jones, man, he is 764 00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.719 so good in this. Henry Jones is always great in 765 00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:01.800 anything that he's in. At The Bad Seed, him just 766 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:07.199 completely emasculating Jimmy Stewart in Vertigo and yeah, just playing 767 00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:11.960 yet another skeazy hotel landlord type person. I'm trying to 768 00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.079 remember the name of the actor that plays the guy 769 00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:18.559 with the big teeth in Blazing Saddles Taggart's right hand man, 770 00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:22.000 but I think he runs the hotel in the Getaway, 771 00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:25.480 And it's very much the same idea of these transient 772 00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:29.360 people living in hotels, which is funny because I know 773 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:31.880 that's how Charles Wiliford lived a lot of his life, 774 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:34.960 but it was in San Francisco where he's living in 775 00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:38.239 hotels for months and months at a time. And to 776 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:42.639 hear about the Los Angeles transience and some of the 777 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.119 stuff that they were talking about on the audio commentary 778 00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:50.119 of guys trying to coerce women into prostitution while they're 779 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.119 walking down the line at the Actors Strike, just handing 780 00:45:53.159 --> 00:45:56.760 out business cards to all the attractive women. I'm just like, man, 781 00:45:56.800 --> 00:45:59.360 what a world? What a world does Los Angeles is? 782 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:03.920 I believe it's pronounced Los Angeles. Yes. 783 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:10.280 Yeah. She really insists on hitting that hard, which I appreciate. 784 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:13.559 But she hits all the angles. Some have called it 785 00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:18.679 a city of angles. Westlake's adaptation certainly would have run 786 00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:24.519 into trouble coming up with a parallel to the Holocaust 787 00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:28.800 to give that character a backstory. But I do think 788 00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:31.159 that excising the nurses. 789 00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:37.920 Carol's story gives the movie a different feel because it 790 00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:41.800 does put us more in Roy's corner. 791 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:47.800 You know, the book really wallows in what a crummy 792 00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:52.800 guy or what you know, all the characters, how lousy 793 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.119 they are as human beings. But the movie, at least 794 00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:00.840 on your first viewing of it, actually if you're a 795 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:04.119 teenager like I was, having watched a lot of John 796 00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:11.360 Cusack romantic teenage romantic comedies, and I do think that 797 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:18.760 he's who I'm rooting for in this movie into and 798 00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:23.880 then at the end what happens to him is really 799 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:29.599 awful in a way that it wouldn't quite be if 800 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:31.920 I really thought he was such a piece of shit, 801 00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:35.239 the way I would if Carol's story had been preserved. 802 00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:40.320 Yeah, I agree, Jeda Dyah that he is an absolute 803 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:44.599 shithead when he does that to Carol, and it just 804 00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:47.920 I can't say that I completely turned against him at 805 00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:51.920 that point, but I definitely lose a lot of any 806 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.920 respect that I had for him, just from that reaction. 807 00:47:55.960 --> 00:47:58.800 One thing that you were talking about earlier, Andrew with 808 00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:02.519 the whole idea of I can quit grifting anytime. I 809 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:06.280 can do this whenever. Jim Thompson was a notorious alcoholic, 810 00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:09.199 and that seems like such the alcoholic thing to say, 811 00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:12.159 I can stop anytime. I don't have I just have 812 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.039 a couple of drinks of parties. I just do a 813 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:18.039 couple of grifts on the weekdays when I'm selling match 814 00:48:18.039 --> 00:48:21.599 sticks to different bars and things. I just take five 815 00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:25.079 dollars here, dollar there. I'll have this weird bet with 816 00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:27.079 this guy where I pay him a dime for every 817 00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:30.119 quarter that he can set up on end. Yeah, those 818 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:32.679 kind of things were. Yeah, it's like he's penny Ante. 819 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:33.920 But he can never stop. 820 00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:37.079 None of these people, they're all they're all basically imprisoned 821 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:38.920 in the obsession of the grift. 822 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:42.639 That's actually another great line I can't remember. I think 823 00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:44.079 it is in the normal when. 824 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:48.360 Bobo basically says you're stealing from Lily, Oh, she's a clip, 825 00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:52.039 a buck here, or a back there. First, don't steal 826 00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:55.320 a little bit too smart. It is not stealing a lot, 827 00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:57.719 I think she says, or something like that. But they're 828 00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:03.320 all engaging in this incredibly danger, risk, risky, obsessive behavior 829 00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:06.599 which they just can't get out all and they're turned 830 00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:12.960 on by that, emotionally, sexually, psychologically turned on by the grift. 831 00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:15.039 And that's that scene at the beginning. 832 00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:17.360 Would all three of them turn around at the same 833 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:20.960 time and they're looking at over the straight world, going Okay, 834 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:23.559 another die at work, Let's do this. 835 00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:27.719 It's also very clever to use the racetrack because the 836 00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:30.360 racetrack was in the book. The racetrack is still a 837 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:32.480 thing in nineteen ninety, it's probably still a thing in 838 00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:35.440 twenty twenty four. I just don't know. But the idea 839 00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:38.920 of the shifting of the odds that she's doing for 840 00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:44.880 Bobo and his syndicate, what was it Amusement Eastern AMusA, 841 00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:50.239 Adjument and amusements, that she's there with this wads and 842 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:52.800 words of money, shifting all of these odds and making 843 00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.480 sure these horses don't come in for too much, and 844 00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:59.320 that really to me mirrors the Moira scam of the 845 00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:03.960 stock market. That's the new horse race, even though that's 846 00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:06.599 been around for one hundred years as well. But the 847 00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:09.800 whole idea of the hackers and oh, we have an 848 00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:13.760 eight second lead here. It's so much in eight seconds 849 00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:16.559 the horse could come in faster than somebody else, that's 850 00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:19.960 by like milliseconds. So here they've got this eight second lead. 851 00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:22.239 So we can figure this stuff out and put in 852 00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:24.239 these buys and puts and all this kind of stuff. 853 00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:27.960 It's win place or show for the modern age. And 854 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:31.920 then also that is nineteen ninety. We've gone through eight 855 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:36.960 years of Reagan. We're halfway through George Bush the first term. 856 00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:41.599 It's yeah, these the idea, these predatory lending and all 857 00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:45.320 this kind of stuff. Pretty much, Thompson almost comes out 858 00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:47.760 and says, hey, whatever we're doing, the government's doing it 859 00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:51.159 way worse to you. But we're honest grifters. We're the 860 00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:53.800 ones that are looking you right in the eyes as 861 00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:55.920 we're taking your money out of your pocket. The government 862 00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:59.360 won't even do that. The one thing that Weslake brings 863 00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:02.920 whole cli as far as I know, to the screenplay 864 00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:06.280 is the scene with JT. Walsh is the flashback of 865 00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:11.519 Moira and this setting up of Charles Napier as this 866 00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:16.159 Texas Oil millionaire I presume to be clipped, and that 867 00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:20.119 whole scene of them, it tells you so many things. 868 00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:23.519 It tells you all about Moira that the voice that 869 00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:26.599 she's using, that Gloria Graham voice, is not her voice. 870 00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:29.679 We don't know what her real voice. Probably sounds like. 871 00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:32.760 She's got a little bit of a Texas drawl when 872 00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:36.280 she's talking with Charles Napier. We find out about JT. 873 00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.639 Walsh and how he's this Basically, he's the ultimate comment 874 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:44.360 to me, he's that mentor character that John Cusack meant 875 00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:48.159 if that mentor just kept getting deeper and deeper until 876 00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.639 you get off the deep end. And that part of 877 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:54.920 the flashback where we see what happens as JT. Walsh, 878 00:51:55.400 --> 00:52:00.280 I just think that's fantastic that he goes crazy, been 879 00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:03.679 double crossed, and has been double crossing people all of 880 00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:06.880 his life that now suddenly all seems to be rushing 881 00:52:06.920 --> 00:52:09.480 back onto him and he can't even trust that there's 882 00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:12.559 a floor. That he can't even step off of his bed. 883 00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:16.840 He's just paralyzed with fear, who can trust who, Who's 884 00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:18.719 going to double cross who? It's like he gets to 885 00:52:18.760 --> 00:52:20.480 the point in his life where he can't even trust 886 00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:22.360 that the floor is going to hold him up anymore. 887 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:25.679 He just has gone completely off the deep end. And 888 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:30.760 I even though that scene is there is a character, 889 00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:35.159 there is a Langley character in the book, and I 890 00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:37.280 think he just I think want to say he became 891 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:40.119 a drunk or something and was off the grift and 892 00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:44.000 all this, but this whole idea, the elaborate con that 893 00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:46.679 they set up, and then also the mental illness that 894 00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:51.480 is very Westlake, that is him making these things up 895 00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:54.400 and investigating the whole thing with the stock market and stuff. 896 00:52:54.440 --> 00:52:57.920 And that's really his addition to the screenplay is that 897 00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:01.400 whole section. I thought that was brilliant and just to 898 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:04.960 show first off, fucking JT. Walsh and Charles Napier going 899 00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:07.920 at it. Yes, I absolutely love it. But JT. Wallsh 900 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:11.679 just in and off himself was always just delivered those 901 00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:16.280 performances like nobody's business and could just come in and 902 00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:20.559 be in a movie for five minutes and just knock 903 00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.119 you out with his performance, like even his little turn 904 00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:27.800 in A Few Good Men, all of that is wonderful. 905 00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:30.480 But yeah, in this movie, he's great, and I just 906 00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:33.880 love that he ends up cracked up and unable to 907 00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:37.079 even move. He's so paranoid. And I know it's a 908 00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:41.320 little thing, but her with her clip on earrings. How 909 00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:44.199 she takes the clipy ond earrings off before she leans 910 00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:46.840 in to kiss him, and I'm just like, oh, okay, 911 00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:49.559 you don't even have your ears pierced. There's not even 912 00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:54.079 that commitment to that. It's just these clip on things. Yeah, 913 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:57.480 the way that when he talks about his mom going 914 00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:59.639 to the track, I think it's like, oh, the track. 915 00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:01.840 And then there's just like a few beats before she 916 00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:05.159 says I want to know everything about you, and I'm like, yeah, 917 00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:07.559 I bet you do. I bet you see your meal 918 00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:11.599 ticket just coming down the street here. I love that, 919 00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:14.239 And I love too that her hair is completely different 920 00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:18.400 in the older in the flashback with JT. Walsh, and 921 00:54:18.519 --> 00:54:21.880 also when you can see her getting nervous about how 922 00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:25.960 extravagant JT. Walsh is with the con when he opens 923 00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:28.760 up the door, he's just like, I got a whole 924 00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:32.280 room of hardware back here. Come on back and check 925 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:35.480 these computers out. You can hear them humming, and Napier 926 00:54:35.559 --> 00:54:38.480 starts to stand up and she's just like, no, that's okay, honey, 927 00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:41.480 that's okay. And they're like, oh, you're actually really nervous here, 928 00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:46.000 and then yeah, just that whole idea of her being 929 00:54:46.039 --> 00:54:48.880 so malleable with her looks and things, and then of 930 00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:53.440 course when she is in the present with Roy, that 931 00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:56.880 her hair and Lily's hair are so similar, just that 932 00:54:56.960 --> 00:55:01.000 kind of wild blonde just streaking out. An like the 933 00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:04.159 end of the film with having Lily come in and 934 00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:06.480 try to steal all of her son's money, it's like 935 00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:09.679 the one thing she doesn't ask for it, she just 936 00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:12.480 comes in and takes it every single bit. She's just like, 937 00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:15.119 I need that money, Roy, and that becomes that whole 938 00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:20.000 inciting thing of that end scene that you're just talking about. 939 00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:22.440 I think I can't remember if it's Freeers. I think 940 00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:24.559 it might be. Westlake talks about how it's set up 941 00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:28.440 like a boxing match. They just keep trying these different angles. 942 00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:31.039 She comes at him this way and he won't do it. 943 00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:33.440 He comes at her this way and she won't do it. 944 00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:37.039 Then she turns it around like you were saying, Jededie, 945 00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.360 and starts to do that whole I don't think she 946 00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:42.079 says in the movie what if I wasn't your mother? 947 00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:46.320 But there's definitely that we can get together. There's a 948 00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:49.320 kiss that happens in this movie, and I'm just like, oh, shit, 949 00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:53.719 Is it okay? Every angle? 950 00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:58.840 What if I told you I wasn't your mother? And 951 00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:01.840 then she says, you'd like that, wouldn't you? 952 00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:09.519 That whole corn that the long con that Moira and 953 00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:12.639 Cole Langley are involved in, which is is a kind 954 00:56:12.679 --> 00:56:16.639 of direct I'm not saying Westlake, who I worship as 955 00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:20.719 a writer, but he lifts that from that George Royd 956 00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:25.320 Hill nineteen seventy pre film The Sting, which has almost 957 00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:30.679 the exact same long con in it, including the fake shooting, 958 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:32.880 and so that they hustle a lot of get out 959 00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:36.320 because he doesn't want to basically be associated with a homicide, 960 00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:39.920 and all that's lifted directly from The Sting. I think 961 00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:43.880 it was influenced very heavily by the Sting, who. 962 00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:47.400 Was talking in one of those extras about the Sting 963 00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:51.639 and that the Sting was based on somebody's book and 964 00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:56.920 they had basically combined all these stories into like smaller stories. 965 00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:00.880 And so when The Sting came out, I ended up 966 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:04.000 being able to sue them because he's, yeah, those are 967 00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:06.360 all real things, but I'm the one that put them 968 00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:07.519 together in this order. 969 00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:11.159 Was it the big don I think it might be the. 970 00:57:11.079 --> 00:57:16.519 Big con yeah, the David Marr book. Yeah, nice, Oh, 971 00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:19.199 there it is in your hands. Do you read that 972 00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:19.639 one too? 973 00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:22.760 I did not for this read, but. 974 00:57:24.519 --> 00:57:26.639 I have to say, just as a real quick aside, 975 00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:30.880 I listened to The Grifters and it was narrated by 976 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:33.320 Barbara Rosenblatt, and at first I was like, why is 977 00:57:33.320 --> 00:57:35.559 there a woman narrating this one? It's Roy's story? And 978 00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:38.639 I'm like, it's not Roy's story, and she spends so 979 00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:42.840 much time as Lily and Moira, and she does a 980 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:47.719 fantastic job, really great narration, and I actually look forward 981 00:57:47.719 --> 00:57:52.039 to hearing more Barbara Rosenblatt narrated books, because she really 982 00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:56.280 killed it, and especially if she does more Thompson's I'm there. 983 00:57:56.880 --> 00:58:00.760 Similar to myke, I've got a bunch more that I 984 00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:04.679 haven't read, and I do, at a very deliberate pace, 985 00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:08.320 take out another one and read it, because there's only 986 00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.400 so many of them, and they I love them. And 987 00:58:12.280 --> 00:58:15.199 when I know, when I've had maybe a string of 988 00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:18.760 disappointing reads in a row, like I really need the 989 00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:24.480 salvage my reading streak, I'll pull out at Jim Thompson then, 990 00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:27.000 or I've got a handful of authors like that where 991 00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:30.920 I've I've got some set aside that I can just 992 00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:33.039 pull out when I know I got to have a 993 00:58:33.079 --> 00:58:35.239 great one portraits. 994 00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:39.440 That's right. I only read after your I just open 995 00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:42.840 up another chapter of Revolution and thirty five Milimeter and 996 00:58:42.920 --> 00:58:44.320 read another great film essay. 997 00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:46.760 That's what actually people should be doing. 998 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:49.039 That's right. Who wrote that book. 999 00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:51.679 I'm not sure who wrote it, but it was edited 1000 00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:55.119 by Andrew Nettie and Sam Degan, available on PM Press. 1001 00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:57.760 I see, I'm a big Sam Deagan f Yeah. 1002 00:58:58.280 --> 00:58:58.960 Same here. 1003 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:03.880 May type that Mike's three of Us excellently. 1004 00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:08.719 Jed. You pointed out that Dylan is a common name 1005 00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:10.079 for Thompson. 1006 00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:15.559 Yeah, he used a lot of the same names, different 1007 00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:20.000 combinations of first names and last names that he would 1008 00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:25.159 use in novel The novel Story to Story. Robert Pulito's 1009 00:59:25.559 --> 00:59:30.360 amazing biography of Jim Thompson Savage Art I just read 1010 00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:34.440 preparing for this podcast, and it's really great at going 1011 00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:39.599 through Thompson's each of his books and pointing out which 1012 00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:46.000 scenarios were retelling of real events from Thompson's life, which 1013 00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:49.800 characters are based on his mother, his father, which character 1014 00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:52.880 is supposed to be him, and a lot of those 1015 00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:57.920 names are Communist Party names that Thompson used when he 1016 00:59:58.039 --> 01:00:02.199 was in the Communist Party and had a several identities there, 1017 01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:06.159 and Dylan was one of the identities that he used, 1018 01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:10.400 and that name pops up an awful lot in his work. 1019 01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:14.840 I think there's also a lengthy section in that absolutely 1020 01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:20.000 brilliant literary biography of Thompson's by Palito where they talked 1021 01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:22.719 about the fact that Thompson's first job was in a hotel, 1022 01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:28.199 a sort of traveler's hotel in Oklahoma as the really One. Yeah, 1023 01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:31.800 that's basically where he had to supply the traveling sales from. 1024 01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:35.400 With women, drugs, liquor, ran errands for them. 1025 01:00:35.639 --> 01:00:37.360 It's where he ran up first, ran up against the 1026 01:00:37.480 --> 01:00:40.360 organized crime that he had to deal with, criminals, he 1027 01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:42.840 had to deal with other low life. So it's obviously 1028 01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:46.360 that in futures, all these subsequent work. 1029 01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:49.920 If memory serves, he was still like a kid when 1030 01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:50.599 he was doing. 1031 01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:54.039 Oh yeah, late teens. I can't remember. So his dad, Yeah, 1032 01:00:54.119 --> 01:00:58.480 his dad was a businessman who I think is very 1033 01:00:58.599 --> 01:01:02.039 much one of the guys that Moira's talking about when 1034 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:05.079 she says, all over the Southwest, you've got these businessmen. 1035 01:01:05.239 --> 01:01:07.480 They were making money when everyone was making money, and 1036 01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:10.199 they think that means they're smart. I think that line 1037 01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:16.280 is directly Thompson talking about his father, who made fortunes, 1038 01:01:16.719 --> 01:01:21.039 made he was a millionaire one year, and then would 1039 01:01:21.159 --> 01:01:24.960 they be destitute and having to move in with relatives. 1040 01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:30.639 And Thompson as a young man, took it upon himself 1041 01:01:30.719 --> 01:01:32.960 then to take care of his father. Would be absent 1042 01:01:33.639 --> 01:01:36.360 for years at a time, just sending a little money 1043 01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:40.440 or cards now and then. But Thompson would he took 1044 01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:44.679 upon himself to support his family, support his mom and 1045 01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:49.800 his sisters. And yeah, so he took these jobs working. 1046 01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:53.320 He would work all night at the hotel and then 1047 01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:56.760 go to high school and fall asleep in class. He 1048 01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:01.400 was just constantly working. One of the oedipal stuff in 1049 01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:05.440 the Grifters, and that shows up in Thompson's other books 1050 01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:10.039 is because that was a lot of them. He's constantly 1051 01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:16.199 killing his father and attracted to his mother or his sisters, 1052 01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:20.519 things like that in the books. And I'm not suggesting 1053 01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:24.400 that that Thompson really did any of this stuff, but 1054 01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:29.079 a lot of those themes that come through and motifs 1055 01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:34.320 that show up throughout his work there are here in 1056 01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:37.760 the Grifters come out of his real life, and yeah, 1057 01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:40.800 if you're interested in Thompson, I can't recommend that the 1058 01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:44.400 Savage Art book by Robert Pluto enough. It was really great. 1059 01:02:44.440 --> 01:02:46.039 I'd been aware of it for a long time and 1060 01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:48.920 wanted to read it for a long time, but took 1061 01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:53.639 the occasion of this episode to finally do it, and 1062 01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:54.840 it was amazing. 1063 01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:58.119 It's probably one of the best. And yeah, I were 1064 01:02:58.159 --> 01:03:00.320 the years ago about so many of those things still 1065 01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:03.320 stick with me today. And then I don't want to 1066 01:03:03.320 --> 01:03:06.480 remember where I read this, but I want to say 1067 01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:10.880 that Lily's look that she apparently looks a lot like 1068 01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:15.480 I'm one of Thompson's wife's, but I found that interesting 1069 01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:17.760 as well. But I don't know how much that was 1070 01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:20.760 intentional or not, because that's a very specific look that 1071 01:03:20.840 --> 01:03:23.039 she has going there, with the white hair and the 1072 01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.320 way that it sticks all up. And then you get 1073 01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:29.519 that echo again with Moira and that whole idea of yeah, 1074 01:03:29.559 --> 01:03:32.320 he's just basically sleeping with his mom every time he 1075 01:03:32.360 --> 01:03:35.639 sleeps with Moira, and that whole thing too of her 1076 01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:39.480 with the separate rooms. And I want to say that 1077 01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:41.960 they actually flip that from the book was it. I 1078 01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:44.440 think it was Roy's idea to have the separate rooms 1079 01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:48.079 so that he could grift and do whatever he wanted 1080 01:03:48.079 --> 01:03:54.000 to without Moira knowing. And then and then she he actually, 1081 01:03:54.440 --> 01:03:56.840 oh yeah. In the book, he gets up early one 1082 01:03:56.880 --> 01:04:00.400 morning and he this is not in the movie. He 1083 01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:04.039 gets up early while they're down in La Joya and 1084 01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:08.519 takes a trip into I can't remember which adjoining city 1085 01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:12.599 and goes to a bar and sees this old punchboard 1086 01:04:12.679 --> 01:04:15.320 in the bar. He starts up this whole like friendly 1087 01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:17.719 conversation with the guy who's running the bar, this guy 1088 01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:20.679 named Bert, and he sees this punchboard and he knows 1089 01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:25.719 it's an old drifting trick, and he intends on stopping 1090 01:04:25.760 --> 01:04:28.280 it and tell you, or that's what he is telling 1091 01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:32.840 himself anyway, that he's going to stop and eventually tell Bert, listen, 1092 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:35.599 you got rooked by this and you need to throw 1093 01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:38.760 this thing away basically. But before he can do that, 1094 01:04:38.920 --> 01:04:41.679 wouldn't you know, there's an undercover cop inside the bar 1095 01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:47.599 who comes over and basically abuses Roy, doesn't arrest him. 1096 01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:50.920 Roy manages to kno get his record a smirch at 1097 01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:53.519 that point, but he calls all over the place, including 1098 01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:56.719 calling Moira, and that I think is really what tips 1099 01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:59.239 her off to what's going on. And then when he 1100 01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:02.679 comes back to the room later on, she's not there 1101 01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:06.039 for a long time, and she was actually at that 1102 01:05:06.119 --> 01:05:09.119 point going over and finding out more about his mother 1103 01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:12.840 because of the race track being right there too. That's 1104 01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:15.400 a little bit of a twist that's happening in there, 1105 01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:17.519 and I'm glad that they dropped that. They really didn't 1106 01:05:17.559 --> 01:05:19.639 need that whole scene because the way that she figures 1107 01:05:19.679 --> 01:05:21.760 him out in the movie, I think it takes a 1108 01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:25.039 little bit of a longer time, or maybe not. I'm 1109 01:05:25.119 --> 01:05:27.639 curious what you guys think as far as when is 1110 01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:31.440 the first moment she realizes that what is it? Game 1111 01:05:31.519 --> 01:05:35.599 meets game? Her attraction to Roy is based probably on 1112 01:05:35.639 --> 01:05:39.199 the grift and she's, oh, this guy has something else 1113 01:05:39.239 --> 01:05:40.119 happening with him. 1114 01:05:40.920 --> 01:05:44.000 Her intention with Roy, I don't remember from the book 1115 01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:48.800 what their meeting was. I remember it was explained in 1116 01:05:48.840 --> 01:05:51.079 the book, not in the film, but I do know 1117 01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:56.800 she is looking to replace her partner she can't work 1118 01:05:56.840 --> 01:06:00.480 with any longer, and I think she is grooming and 1119 01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:04.920 it isn't until she catches him drifting on the train 1120 01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:09.400 in the film that she's confident she can make her 1121 01:06:09.519 --> 01:06:13.000 pitch to him now. But yeah, I think that was 1122 01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:18.519 definitely on her mind for their whole relationship, which I 1123 01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:22.320 think then mentioned in the film has been about two months. 1124 01:06:23.119 --> 01:06:25.239 Only two three flashbacks in the film when he's with 1125 01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:27.960 Eddie Jones, who plays that great. 1126 01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:32.079 I love that, actually do love that scene. 1127 01:06:32.079 --> 01:06:36.840 It's one of the few human, lovely, light touch emotional 1128 01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:38.119 scenes in the entire film. 1129 01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:39.920 When we're always lying on the bed and. 1130 01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:42.920 He doesn't know it, but he's dying and he's sort 1131 01:06:42.920 --> 01:06:47.440 of tossing the coin and he imagines Mints walking into 1132 01:06:47.480 --> 01:06:49.719 his hotel room, and Mitch just gives him this sort 1133 01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:53.559 of eternal smile as if to say, oh, what the 1134 01:06:53.559 --> 01:06:54.960 fuck have you got yourself into now? 1135 01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:55.639 Kid? Come on? 1136 01:06:56.239 --> 01:06:58.679 And then he has that flashback about when he first 1137 01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.639 meets Mints and they talk and Mince basically says, you 1138 01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:04.639 know what, and Roy does I want to be a grifter? 1139 01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:07.519 And Mince basically says, first rule, no part of it's 1140 01:07:07.599 --> 01:07:10.599 you know partner, takes your split down the middle and 1141 01:07:11.360 --> 01:07:13.320 what's it? Apple on your head and against the part 1142 01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:16.920 or a shotgun? No, no long con always the short 1143 01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:19.880 cut and that's the bible he's lived with this entire time. 1144 01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:21.880 So I do wonder whether Moyra is playing you, but 1145 01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:25.159 he's just alert to that. One of the mysteries of 1146 01:07:25.159 --> 01:07:27.079 the film. Will never knows. 1147 01:07:27.320 --> 01:07:29.760 He's got a code, you know, he's got a code. 1148 01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:32.000 I think his mother has a code. I think Lily 1149 01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:34.199 has a code, but I don't think Moira has a code. 1150 01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:38.280 I think that she is going to she's opportunistic in 1151 01:07:38.440 --> 01:07:42.159 any way, and she doesn't have that idea like for him. 1152 01:07:42.239 --> 01:07:45.639 He just he's content to do the shortcun He's content 1153 01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:49.679 to get ten dollars change for a twenty when he 1154 01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:52.239 puts down a ten. You know, that's a big thing. 1155 01:07:52.320 --> 01:07:54.320 That seems to be his money maker. And he's been 1156 01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:57.800 doing this long enough and squirrelling out his money that 1157 01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:00.800 he can have. I think they say fifty thousand dollars 1158 01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:05.519 in the book, and this is nineteen sixty three money. Guys, 1159 01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:10.400 he's got fifty fifty two I think thousand dollars saved away. 1160 01:08:11.239 --> 01:08:15.760 And you know that he he only uses that money. 1161 01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:18.439 The only time it really comes out, it ever comes 1162 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:21.520 out from behind the clown paintings is when he's trying 1163 01:08:21.520 --> 01:08:24.600 to pay off Lily. He thinks that by throwing money 1164 01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:28.680 at her, literally, that he's going to pay his debt 1165 01:08:28.800 --> 01:08:31.039 because he hates to be in debt to her. He 1166 01:08:31.079 --> 01:08:33.479 hates her so much because he thinks he had such 1167 01:08:33.479 --> 01:08:36.479 a shitty childhood and I think he did. He had 1168 01:08:36.520 --> 01:08:39.840 such a shitty childhood that he's just I don't want 1169 01:08:40.039 --> 01:08:43.399 her helping me, like it's a dreadful thing. That she 1170 01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:46.520 was the one that got the ambulance that got him 1171 01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:49.760 to the hospital, that saved his life. And she says 1172 01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:53.680 that she gave him life twice birth and then saving 1173 01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:57.840 him for this, and he's just desperate. I don't want 1174 01:08:57.880 --> 01:09:01.079 to owe her anything. So he tries, hey, his own 1175 01:09:01.159 --> 01:09:03.600 mother off with four grand to be like, there you go, 1176 01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:07.399 that's gonna be good for the hospital, right, Just fuck you, Lily. 1177 01:09:08.319 --> 01:09:09.680 And sometimes he wants. 1178 01:09:09.439 --> 01:09:14.760 To the shot when she's killed him and he's lying 1179 01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:18.520 there dead on the ground or at least expiring, and 1180 01:09:18.680 --> 01:09:24.279 she's weeping, she's grieving, she's so upset that her body 1181 01:09:25.159 --> 01:09:32.079 she's heaving. But the shot is really sick. It's just sick. 1182 01:09:32.119 --> 01:09:34.680 He's lying on the ground and she's kneeling beside him, 1183 01:09:34.760 --> 01:09:38.359 and the way she's moving and just the light, the composition, 1184 01:09:39.199 --> 01:09:43.600 it really looks like they're fucking and it's just one 1185 01:09:43.640 --> 01:09:49.239 more great little layer of nastiness in this movie that 1186 01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:54.560 the closest they've been has led to this. 1187 01:09:55.319 --> 01:09:58.960 It's a pretty horny film. It's because there's all that. 1188 01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:01.479 Because also there is that scene in the book where 1189 01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:04.520 Layra is trying to sell the jewelry to the jeweler, 1190 01:10:04.640 --> 01:10:07.479 which in the film is that terrific character actor Stephen 1191 01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:11.960 Dobolowski is that dorky guys and ground all day and 1192 01:10:12.039 --> 01:10:14.680 he's in lots of other things. And in the film, 1193 01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:17.640 she just doesn't that the jeweler said, look, this is 1194 01:10:17.680 --> 01:10:19.800 the other book. The jeweler says, look, it's not real. 1195 01:10:19.840 --> 01:10:21.760 It's not real diamonds. I can't really give you much 1196 01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:23.800 for this, and she goes on her way. But there's 1197 01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:29.079 this great we in double on Pondra See where the 1198 01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:32.359 jewelers basically saying, oh, look, I'm sorry about this. The 1199 01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:34.960 diarlands are fake. I can't give you much. But look, 1200 01:10:34.960 --> 01:10:37.079 if there's anything else you think we might be interested in, 1201 01:10:37.119 --> 01:10:40.039 you're a valued customer, just let us know. And she's 1202 01:10:40.079 --> 01:10:42.960 she basically says, there might be there might be one thing, 1203 01:10:43.199 --> 01:10:45.359 or I would have to see the merchandise, but you're 1204 01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:50.520 looking at it. A terrific little introductory scene to Moira. 1205 01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:55.000 Her particular anxiety in the book is that she knows 1206 01:10:55.079 --> 01:10:57.840 she can't keep selling her body. She knows that it's 1207 01:10:57.840 --> 01:11:00.399 a finite resource. She's getting old. She didn't want you 1208 01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:02.960 to start with, but she also knows that she gets older, 1209 01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:05.880 it gets harder, it takes more out of a It's 1210 01:11:05.880 --> 01:11:08.279 a tough saying in that book, where she's still ruminating 1211 01:11:08.319 --> 01:11:10.720 that she needs she needs money, and she needs it fast, 1212 01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:13.760 and she she can't get it selling her body. So 1213 01:11:13.880 --> 01:11:14.760 what's she going to do? 1214 01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:17.359 Yeah, at some point the rent's going to be due 1215 01:11:17.399 --> 01:11:20.199 and the landlord's actually going to take the money rather. 1216 01:11:20.039 --> 01:11:22.800 Than that's right, that's right the lady or the loot. 1217 01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:26.800 Yes, And then that whole weird thing of it. And 1218 01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:31.880 that's an odd carryover from the book. It's because she 1219 01:11:32.239 --> 01:11:36.680 and the character is basically Langley called Langley. They would 1220 01:11:36.760 --> 01:11:39.560 read magazines and they would laugh at all of the 1221 01:11:39.760 --> 01:11:43.800 catchphrases for the advertisements, and so in the movie they 1222 01:11:44.039 --> 01:11:49.880 keep that with her suddenly saying all of these crazy things, well, 1223 01:11:49.880 --> 01:11:53.199 that are all like written for out of magazine. It's 1224 01:11:53.239 --> 01:11:57.800 all advertising pattern and talking about like germs and your 1225 01:11:57.840 --> 01:12:00.399 crevices and things, and it's just like in the movie. 1226 01:12:00.439 --> 01:12:02.319 I'm like, what the hell is this? And you know, 1227 01:12:02.439 --> 01:12:04.880 I'm so glad I read the book because now that 1228 01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:06.199 makes a lot more sense. 1229 01:12:07.079 --> 01:12:13.399 Broiled hot house tomato under generous slice of ripe. She's 1230 01:12:13.399 --> 01:12:17.600 the Moira Langley story. Oh god, yeah, I need to 1231 01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:22.800 bring back your wirey zone as when talking about somebody's crotch, 1232 01:12:25.680 --> 01:12:28.119 what was that? Sorry, I don't remember the She said 1233 01:12:28.119 --> 01:12:30.560 that a couple of times to the landlord. The first 1234 01:12:30.560 --> 01:12:35.239 one was something like, got something wrong with your wiy zone? 1235 01:12:35.359 --> 01:12:39.359 And then as she's laid out on the bed naked, 1236 01:12:39.800 --> 01:12:42.600 she's talking about a car as she's running her hands 1237 01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:46.960 over her right naked body and how the stick shift 1238 01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:54.960 handles and the immaculate wires and owners. It's good stuff, 1239 01:12:55.319 --> 01:12:55.960 good stuff. 1240 01:12:56.039 --> 01:12:56.159 Yea. 1241 01:12:56.960 --> 01:12:58.680 All right, We're gonna go ahead and take a break 1242 01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:00.720 and play back a couple of interviews. First up, you'll 1243 01:13:00.760 --> 01:13:04.600 hear from producer Peggy Risky and then producer Barbara Defina, 1244 01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:07.520 and we'll be back with both of those right after 1245 01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:08.600 these brief messages. 1246 01:13:16.560 --> 01:13:20.159 Hello everyone, This is Malcolm McDowell. I just want to 1247 01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:24.600 say that this is a request to listeners of the 1248 01:13:24.720 --> 01:13:30.159 Projection Booth podcast to become patrons of the show via 1249 01:13:30.760 --> 01:13:36.680 Patreon dot com p A T eo n dot com 1250 01:13:36.840 --> 01:13:39.039 slash Projection Booth. 1251 01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:41.680 That's pretty simple. I think you can do that. 1252 01:13:42.399 --> 01:13:46.199 It's a great show and Mike he provides hours of 1253 01:13:46.399 --> 01:13:49.920 great entertainment. So now it's time to give back my 1254 01:13:50.039 --> 01:13:53.840 little drovies. Settle down and take a listen and have 1255 01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:57.039 a sip of the old Molocco and then you'll be 1256 01:13:57.119 --> 01:13:58.279 ready for a little of the. 1257 01:13:58.239 --> 01:14:03.399 Old in Out, in out real horror show. Bye bye. 1258 01:14:06.039 --> 01:14:08.199 All right, welcome to the interview portion of the show. 1259 01:14:08.239 --> 01:14:10.319 First that you're going to hear from Peggy Risky, who 1260 01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:13.039 was one of the producers of the film. Taught to 1261 01:14:13.039 --> 01:14:16.159 her about this movie as well as her work on 1262 01:14:16.199 --> 01:14:19.319 the Trevor Project. How did you get interested in filmmaking 1263 01:14:20.119 --> 01:14:20.720 as a kid? 1264 01:14:20.760 --> 01:14:25.479 I remember watching Saturday Mornings TV where they had all 1265 01:14:25.520 --> 01:14:29.439 these old movies programmed, so there'd be the old serials, 1266 01:14:29.520 --> 01:14:32.880 there'd be those great black and white romantic comedies from 1267 01:14:32.960 --> 01:14:38.520 the forties and thirties, and Charlie Chaplin and a bunch 1268 01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:42.840 of other stuff, and I was just fascinated by a 1269 01:14:42.920 --> 01:14:46.880 world way beyond mine. I grew up in a small 1270 01:14:46.960 --> 01:14:51.600 town in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, so seeing these whether it 1271 01:14:52.039 --> 01:14:57.840 was The Thin Man or Casablanca, whatever, all of those 1272 01:14:57.840 --> 01:15:03.880 worlds seemed exotic and radically different than my own. But 1273 01:15:03.960 --> 01:15:07.600 I think movies really helped me see and introduced me 1274 01:15:07.760 --> 01:15:12.199 to the wider world in a way that got planted 1275 01:15:13.640 --> 01:15:19.000 very early for me. So filmmaking fell into it. There 1276 01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:22.520 was actually a teacher in high school who had us 1277 01:15:22.600 --> 01:15:26.600 make super eight films, and it was very odd. This 1278 01:15:26.760 --> 01:15:30.880 was unusual at the time, but mister Fitzpatrick, there you go, 1279 01:15:30.920 --> 01:15:33.119 and we'd have fun making them. And I made a 1280 01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:37.000 little stop action thing of shot glances dancing to the 1281 01:15:37.039 --> 01:15:43.520 song Tequila. I wish I could still find it. And 1282 01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:47.800 then as I went to college in undergrad our town 1283 01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:52.479 had just started a cable television station, Public Access, so 1284 01:15:52.520 --> 01:15:55.279 we got to make programming for that, and I started 1285 01:15:55.319 --> 01:15:59.880 to begin to know more about storytelling, and we also 1286 01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:04.159 I had film production classes again. Another wonderful professor there 1287 01:16:04.239 --> 01:16:08.960 named Roger bullis very supportive and helpful. And then I 1288 01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:12.520 went to graduate school. It was video TV film got 1289 01:16:12.520 --> 01:16:16.920 to keep doing more stuff and more narrative based productions, 1290 01:16:17.399 --> 01:16:20.840 and all I can say is, I knew I wanted 1291 01:16:20.880 --> 01:16:24.279 to make movies, really wanted to make movies at that point, 1292 01:16:24.479 --> 01:16:26.600 but I have no idea how I go about it. 1293 01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:29.560 But I didn't know I wanted to go to New York. 1294 01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:31.880 I thought New York City was just the coolest place 1295 01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:34.520 in the world you could be, and I really just 1296 01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:38.640 followed my instincts. I'm sure much more logical choice would 1297 01:16:38.640 --> 01:16:41.680 have been Los Angeles, but the big city to Big 1298 01:16:41.720 --> 01:16:46.199 Apple called, and I went. When I started working in 1299 01:16:46.279 --> 01:16:49.680 New York, I actually got a job. My first job 1300 01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:53.840 was as a receptionist for a company that made corporate films, 1301 01:16:54.479 --> 01:16:58.720 and within a year I was working as a producer 1302 01:16:58.800 --> 01:17:03.039 director for them. And all that background and experience I 1303 01:17:03.119 --> 01:17:08.199 had making films all through those college years actually paid off. 1304 01:17:08.920 --> 01:17:10.720 There were a lot of people who worked on stuff 1305 01:17:10.720 --> 01:17:15.039 but had no idea how this was. Like when videotape 1306 01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:17.760 was just coming. I'm really strong, and nobody knew how 1307 01:17:17.800 --> 01:17:22.880 to run a tape recorder, handing that stuff and go 1308 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:26.880 to college, and the jobs that I had working through 1309 01:17:26.920 --> 01:17:30.199 college all involved me dealing with that kind of stuff. 1310 01:17:30.880 --> 01:17:34.520 That's how I got involved. Starting out, while I was 1311 01:17:34.560 --> 01:17:36.600 in New York, I met other people involved in the 1312 01:17:36.680 --> 01:17:39.600 film business, and after a couple of years I was 1313 01:17:39.680 --> 01:17:43.800 able to cross over into working on narrative stuff. And 1314 01:17:43.840 --> 01:17:49.399 then oddly enough I transitioned from doing industrials into helping 1315 01:17:49.439 --> 01:17:52.640 people prep feature films like for free, helping to learn 1316 01:17:52.720 --> 01:17:56.960 the skills involved in breaking down movies and strip boards 1317 01:17:57.000 --> 01:17:59.760 and all the things you do to create a production 1318 01:18:00.039 --> 01:18:04.560 shooting schedule. And one night I go to a party 1319 01:18:04.680 --> 01:18:08.399 and I meet John Sales and Maggie RAMSI there and 1320 01:18:08.520 --> 01:18:13.119 John had recently made Return of the Sacocca seven, which was, 1321 01:18:13.239 --> 01:18:18.680 as we know, very popular and tied into the burgeoning 1322 01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:24.199 start of the independent film movement. John Cassabetti's was one version, 1323 01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:28.520 and then the next generation was people like John Sales, 1324 01:18:28.600 --> 01:18:32.600 the Coen Brothers, Jim Jarvish, and I was in New 1325 01:18:32.720 --> 01:18:35.840 York and started working with John in that period of time. 1326 01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:40.720 This was in the eighties, and life happens. There was 1327 01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:44.720 no big plan. It was an accident. We hit it 1328 01:18:44.760 --> 01:18:48.159 off that They told me they were making another movie, 1329 01:18:48.600 --> 01:18:52.000 and I said, if you need somebody to help sign 1330 01:18:52.039 --> 01:18:54.399 me up, And they asked me to come in and 1331 01:18:54.439 --> 01:18:58.640 production manage this low budget film called Leanna, which we 1332 01:18:58.760 --> 01:19:02.800 had fun making in and Hullboken for really a small 1333 01:19:02.800 --> 01:19:06.600 amount of money. And then after that was done, Magie, 1334 01:19:06.680 --> 01:19:10.359 who's John's life partner and has been a producer of 1335 01:19:10.399 --> 01:19:13.960 his films his whole career. Meggie said, Hey, we've got 1336 01:19:13.960 --> 01:19:16.159 this other movie when we want to make, called mate One. 1337 01:19:16.239 --> 01:19:17.760 Would you like to produce it with me? 1338 01:19:19.119 --> 01:19:19.439 Sure? 1339 01:19:20.239 --> 01:19:22.960 So after making one other film, I got to be 1340 01:19:23.039 --> 01:19:26.079 a producer. But the truth is it took seven years 1341 01:19:26.119 --> 01:19:29.319 to make mate Wan, and in the middle of that 1342 01:19:29.439 --> 01:19:32.840 process we actually thought we had the financing. It fell 1343 01:19:32.880 --> 01:19:37.640 apart overnight and we were sitting around depressed, and John said, 1344 01:19:38.319 --> 01:19:41.279 I've always had this idea about a movie about a 1345 01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:44.960 black extraterrestrial who winds up in New York and starts 1346 01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:49.439 to read secret messages in graffiti in the subway. And 1347 01:19:49.560 --> 01:19:52.359 so that went from a dream and that one line 1348 01:19:52.399 --> 01:19:56.439 concept to John go's ave got two hundred and fifty grand. 1349 01:19:56.439 --> 01:19:58.159 Do you think we could get a movie like that 1350 01:19:58.319 --> 01:20:01.319 in the canon. I'm sure we could figure it out. 1351 01:20:01.479 --> 01:20:05.479 And we made The Brother from Another Planet. Six weeks 1352 01:20:05.560 --> 01:20:09.000 later we were shooting that was it. That was my 1353 01:20:10.000 --> 01:20:13.319 first official producing credit, and I just kept going. 1354 01:20:13.399 --> 01:20:17.079 Since why did it take so long for Maytwan to 1355 01:20:17.479 --> 01:20:18.079 nder fruition? 1356 01:20:18.960 --> 01:20:23.239 Think about it, Here's a movie about truly one of 1357 01:20:23.319 --> 01:20:28.319 the bloodiest conflicts in American labor history. But it wasn't 1358 01:20:28.399 --> 01:20:33.159 exactly the most popular topic at the time. And John 1359 01:20:33.479 --> 01:20:41.000 writes sophisticated films that are about class, culture and capitalism. 1360 01:20:41.680 --> 01:20:45.479 May One was not a ringing endorsement for any of 1361 01:20:45.520 --> 01:20:50.439 those things. What finally happened is that we made that 1362 01:20:50.600 --> 01:20:55.000 film for a very low budget given the scope and 1363 01:20:55.079 --> 01:20:59.399 scale of it, which was a period nineteen twenty epic 1364 01:20:59.520 --> 01:21:04.199 and Virginia, and we got the financing largely based on 1365 01:21:04.279 --> 01:21:07.840 John's reputations of foreign sales based on what he could 1366 01:21:07.880 --> 01:21:11.720 bring in. And then God bless we got James Earl 1367 01:21:11.840 --> 01:21:17.720 Jones to start in a supporting role as the leader 1368 01:21:17.760 --> 01:21:20.319 of the black miners who are brought in to be 1369 01:21:20.399 --> 01:21:24.159 scabs but wind up joining up with the union the 1370 01:21:25.079 --> 01:21:28.880 local coal miners who are out on strike, and we 1371 01:21:29.159 --> 01:21:33.680 cast people who were not well known yet like David 1372 01:21:33.720 --> 01:21:38.000 stuthan new Oscar winner, was in one of the very 1373 01:21:38.520 --> 01:21:41.960 strong supporting roles. Chris Cooper never been a lead in 1374 01:21:41.960 --> 01:21:45.600 a film. He was the lead in Mate One. It 1375 01:21:46.039 --> 01:21:51.479 wasn't a movie that you sold on names particularly. It 1376 01:21:51.640 --> 01:21:57.000 mostly wrote on John's reputation and previous track record. And 1377 01:21:57.079 --> 01:21:59.800 the truth is, by that point he had Skaka seven 1378 01:21:59.840 --> 01:22:02.640 and Brother from Another Planet, both of which were very 1379 01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:07.039 successful at the box office, and that helped us get 1380 01:22:07.079 --> 01:22:10.640 the financing. But it took seven years from me wanting 1381 01:22:10.680 --> 01:22:13.560 to get financed in John's next movie after that, Eight 1382 01:22:13.600 --> 01:22:16.319 min Out, which I also helped produce, was made a 1383 01:22:16.399 --> 01:22:19.439 year later, and that had taken eight years to get financed. 1384 01:22:20.159 --> 01:22:22.560 Phillah, tell me about The Grifters, How does that come 1385 01:22:22.600 --> 01:22:23.359 into your life? 1386 01:22:24.039 --> 01:22:27.560 The Grifters was honestly one of the best experiences making 1387 01:22:27.560 --> 01:22:31.319 a film I've ever had, and I think that it 1388 01:22:31.399 --> 01:22:37.159 was partly where I was in the trajectory of my life. 1389 01:22:37.760 --> 01:22:41.600 It was also branching out into making a film that 1390 01:22:41.800 --> 01:22:46.000 was a little more high profile. Martin Scorsese and Barbara 1391 01:22:46.039 --> 01:22:50.000 Defina were the producers. But what happened is by the 1392 01:22:50.039 --> 01:22:54.039 time The Grifters was getting ready to go, they were 1393 01:22:54.079 --> 01:22:58.039 going off to make Last Temptation of Christ. They needed 1394 01:22:58.039 --> 01:23:01.079 someone to produce the film in their stead, at least 1395 01:23:01.119 --> 01:23:04.880 through the production period. I get a call one day, 1396 01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:07.039 did I want to come in and talk to Stephen 1397 01:23:07.119 --> 01:23:10.640 Prayers about this movie he was going to make? And 1398 01:23:10.680 --> 01:23:12.479 this was when I was living in New York. I 1399 01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:16.119 go to I forget if it was the Algonquins Hotel 1400 01:23:16.840 --> 01:23:21.119 and meet with Stephen and it was the most fascinating 1401 01:23:21.159 --> 01:23:25.760 interview ever because all we did was just chat about movies, 1402 01:23:26.039 --> 01:23:30.119 favorite films, things that had to do with family relationships, 1403 01:23:30.640 --> 01:23:35.359 the weird overtones sometimes and on who was a little 1404 01:23:35.399 --> 01:23:39.399 too flortacious with one of my brothers, all the stuff 1405 01:23:39.439 --> 01:23:42.199 that starts to touch on incest in a way, but 1406 01:23:43.359 --> 01:23:45.960 he can't really tell for sure if that's what's going on. 1407 01:23:47.119 --> 01:23:52.279 And he never asked me anything, particularly about what do 1408 01:23:52.319 --> 01:23:56.119 you know about production? It was like and this was 1409 01:23:56.239 --> 01:23:59.000 actually one of the great things I admired about Stephen. 1410 01:24:00.039 --> 01:24:02.600 He clearly knew my credits and that I had history 1411 01:24:02.640 --> 01:24:05.640 before I was coming in. He knew that I had 1412 01:24:05.720 --> 01:24:07.960 made some kind of mark as a producer in the 1413 01:24:07.960 --> 01:24:13.359 independent film world, and he respected that. And the dynamic 1414 01:24:13.439 --> 01:24:16.399 between a producer and a director is a lot about 1415 01:24:17.319 --> 01:24:21.399 understanding of shared vision. Do you understand as a producer 1416 01:24:21.720 --> 01:24:25.119 what the director's going for how can you help support 1417 01:24:25.760 --> 01:24:31.279 translating that into the actual film and all the many 1418 01:24:31.439 --> 01:24:35.119 decisions that have to be made along the way about 1419 01:24:35.159 --> 01:24:38.960 where do you put the money? And I don't know. 1420 01:24:39.079 --> 01:24:42.399 At a certain point, it's do a sense you can 1421 01:24:42.479 --> 01:24:48.279 get along, communicate well, and do you have enough experience 1422 01:24:48.359 --> 01:24:51.359 to do what's required. All I can tell you is 1423 01:24:51.359 --> 01:24:54.800 whatever that magic combination is supposed to be, it seemed 1424 01:24:54.840 --> 01:24:58.199 to happen, and I walked out a little stun going. 1425 01:24:58.399 --> 01:25:01.319 That was the oddest kind of It was just a 1426 01:25:01.359 --> 01:25:05.640 great conversation. And the same thing happened with other people. 1427 01:25:05.760 --> 01:25:08.119 I know because I recommended a friend to be the 1428 01:25:08.159 --> 01:25:11.399 script supervisor and she came out saying the same thing. 1429 01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:15.479 Like they started talking about famous Polish filmmakers. Her last 1430 01:25:15.560 --> 01:25:19.000 name was Polish. All this kind of stuff, and that 1431 01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:23.319 was just Steven. And part of the way he treated 1432 01:25:23.399 --> 01:25:27.560 people on the crew was about respecting what they brought 1433 01:25:27.600 --> 01:25:30.920 to the table and trusting it. And somehow that just 1434 01:25:31.079 --> 01:25:34.119 came through without him ever giving you a compliment. He's 1435 01:25:34.159 --> 01:25:37.279 not prone to compliments, but he felt it more than 1436 01:25:37.319 --> 01:25:40.479 you needed to hear it, and so people would really 1437 01:25:40.520 --> 01:25:44.359 do whatever to help support him getting what he wanted 1438 01:25:44.680 --> 01:25:45.279 on screen. 1439 01:25:47.039 --> 01:25:49.319 Was the film cast by the time he came aboard, 1440 01:25:49.359 --> 01:25:51.560 or were you just forming the crew at that point. 1441 01:25:52.359 --> 01:25:56.439 By the time I came on board, Cusack was attached. 1442 01:25:57.399 --> 01:26:00.439 I think a net Benning was attached, but I still 1443 01:26:00.439 --> 01:26:03.760 had to cast Lily. And that was when they were 1444 01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:09.039 still interviewing actresses for the part. And I remember that 1445 01:26:10.239 --> 01:26:13.960 there was a moment that Marty came into town to 1446 01:26:14.079 --> 01:26:17.720 meet with the three finalists for the role of Lively, 1447 01:26:18.600 --> 01:26:24.239 and I do remember Stephen saying he was sitting in 1448 01:26:24.239 --> 01:26:28.399 the room with Angelica, Houston and Marty and of course himself, 1449 01:26:29.119 --> 01:26:34.000 and it's not going well. It's whatever was happening. Angelica 1450 01:26:34.560 --> 01:26:38.840 seemed very what I suspected. She was nervous, but not 1451 01:26:39.039 --> 01:26:44.319 particularly forth company talking bus and I wish I could 1452 01:26:44.359 --> 01:26:49.439 remember what happened. But some question he placed because he, 1453 01:26:49.960 --> 01:26:55.600 I think, really felt strongly about Angelica forever. All something 1454 01:26:55.720 --> 01:26:58.840 he said flipped the switch and all of a sudden 1455 01:26:58.920 --> 01:27:03.640 they just went the right direction and was very engaging, 1456 01:27:03.920 --> 01:27:08.920 and Marty came out agreeing that she would be the 1457 01:27:08.960 --> 01:27:12.159 best choice for the role, and. 1458 01:27:12.039 --> 01:27:15.600 She was, yeah, I can't imagine anybody else playing that role. 1459 01:27:16.359 --> 01:27:19.760 No, I still think It's one of the best performances 1460 01:27:19.800 --> 01:27:23.359 by each of those actors, by John Cusick and Nim 1461 01:27:23.439 --> 01:27:25.560 Benning and Angelica. 1462 01:27:24.960 --> 01:27:28.960 Houston on such a strong supporting cast too. I love 1463 01:27:29.079 --> 01:27:31.920 Pat Hinkle. He's always so great to watch. 1464 01:27:32.720 --> 01:27:33.039 I know. 1465 01:27:33.560 --> 01:27:36.359 I tell you Vicky Thomas did the casting out of 1466 01:27:36.399 --> 01:27:42.199 Los Angeles. And Vicky she has I think a box 1467 01:27:42.439 --> 01:27:45.720 of cards she started collecting at eleven or twelve where 1468 01:27:45.760 --> 01:27:48.720 she'd write notes about favorite actors from her TV. 1469 01:27:48.600 --> 01:27:49.399 Shows and stuff. 1470 01:27:50.159 --> 01:27:54.439 Vicky knew actors that Marty wasn't even familiar with that 1471 01:27:54.920 --> 01:27:55.439 came in. 1472 01:27:55.640 --> 01:27:56.520 She knew all. 1473 01:27:56.520 --> 01:27:59.239 Those actors from the forties and the fifties in the 1474 01:27:59.479 --> 01:28:04.479 sixties who are still kicking around, these really great character actors. 1475 01:28:04.680 --> 01:28:07.960 And VICKI I think her stamp is on that film 1476 01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:12.199 in all those wonderful phases supporting characters. 1477 01:28:12.479 --> 01:28:15.800 I had heard that Timothy Carey was in contention at 1478 01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:16.640 one point. 1479 01:28:17.279 --> 01:28:21.359 I don't know about that one. Maybe Barbera. Well you 1480 01:28:21.520 --> 01:28:24.079 look at his face and you go, yep, does he 1481 01:28:24.399 --> 01:28:26.800 belongs in that film? Oh yeah, But I don't know 1482 01:28:26.840 --> 01:28:27.840 what really happened. 1483 01:28:28.399 --> 01:28:31.840 So were there any challenges of updating a book that 1484 01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:34.760 was set in earlier time to this more modern era 1485 01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:38.239 where people don't really even use the term grift that much. 1486 01:28:38.520 --> 01:28:42.239 Maybe now, maybe since twenty sixteen with our former president, 1487 01:28:42.319 --> 01:28:44.680 but now we know all about grifting. 1488 01:28:45.520 --> 01:28:50.039 In terms of translating the film from the period it 1489 01:28:50.159 --> 01:28:55.359 was written in to a more contemporary setting, Stephen took 1490 01:28:55.399 --> 01:29:00.359 a very conscious approach to wanting to help it feels 1491 01:29:01.159 --> 01:29:03.960 and worked with I think tuly one of the best 1492 01:29:04.000 --> 01:29:08.079 production design teams ever that was led by Dennis Gasner, 1493 01:29:08.600 --> 01:29:14.760 with incredible support from Leslie McDonald and with Nancy Hay 1494 01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:20.319 who are just incredible art director and set decorator. There 1495 01:29:20.359 --> 01:29:22.640 was nothing in that film that wasn't at least ten 1496 01:29:22.720 --> 01:29:27.359 years old, so it without ever going black and white 1497 01:29:27.479 --> 01:29:32.319 and literally that noir ish look. I think he created 1498 01:29:32.359 --> 01:29:37.199 a beautiful with a great production team, neo noir look 1499 01:29:37.439 --> 01:29:40.399 that makes that film when I look at it, and 1500 01:29:40.439 --> 01:29:44.079 I saw it recently, it still holds up. You can't 1501 01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:48.479 quite figure out when and where it was set, so 1502 01:29:49.279 --> 01:29:53.520 it doesn't age itself. Stephon was in love with the 1503 01:29:53.640 --> 01:29:56.560 language from the book and so all that stuff that 1504 01:29:56.560 --> 01:30:01.399 would have seemed anachronistic to us. It was like put 1505 01:30:01.399 --> 01:30:04.680 it in and that great line get off the griff Ry, 1506 01:30:04.800 --> 01:30:08.439 you haven't got the stomach for it. Loved all that, 1507 01:30:09.119 --> 01:30:12.399 and I do think it exsolutely brought that word back 1508 01:30:12.399 --> 01:30:15.920 into the lex Acount. I never heard it before before, 1509 01:30:16.119 --> 01:30:19.840 seen the book, and of course reading a screenplay. 1510 01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:23.000 From what I understanding, Please correct me if I'm wrong. 1511 01:30:23.119 --> 01:30:25.680 One of the main jobs of a producer is to 1512 01:30:25.760 --> 01:30:28.880 solve problems. What kind of problems did you have to 1513 01:30:28.880 --> 01:30:29.680 solve on this one? 1514 01:30:30.479 --> 01:30:33.199 It's true that a big part of a producer's job 1515 01:30:33.439 --> 01:30:37.399 is problem solving. That in helping ensure that the whole 1516 01:30:37.479 --> 01:30:40.680 ship is moving in the right direction right and that 1517 01:30:40.880 --> 01:30:43.439 everybody the right hand is talking to the left hand, 1518 01:30:43.439 --> 01:30:46.640 et cetera, et cetera. One of the challenges, and this 1519 01:30:46.760 --> 01:30:49.319 is not in common, is you find you never quite 1520 01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:51.760 have as much money as you would like to make 1521 01:30:51.800 --> 01:30:55.640 a film. And so we got to a point where 1522 01:30:56.680 --> 01:31:01.239 we realized that we weren't have quite as many days 1523 01:31:01.279 --> 01:31:06.279 as we wanted, and that this did not really get 1524 01:31:06.359 --> 01:31:10.680 understood until after the fact. But the financier was actually 1525 01:31:11.279 --> 01:31:15.520 getting into trouble. I didn't know that, but I didn't 1526 01:31:15.560 --> 01:31:18.000 know all of a sudden the movie was getting cut back, 1527 01:31:18.239 --> 01:31:22.960 shipped away at by a couple hundred dollars, And what 1528 01:31:23.439 --> 01:31:27.039 happened is we discovered later they went bankrupt. But in 1529 01:31:27.079 --> 01:31:30.119 this period of time, we're just like, Okay, there's a squeeze. 1530 01:31:30.119 --> 01:31:32.000 We've got to figure out how we're going to adjust. 1531 01:31:32.800 --> 01:31:35.439 And one of the things you always look at is 1532 01:31:36.159 --> 01:31:39.760 are there any scenes that can be cut? Because as 1533 01:31:39.760 --> 01:31:44.359 soon as you cut scenes, you can save on shooting time, 1534 01:31:45.119 --> 01:31:47.640 and you can try to nickel dime your way through it, 1535 01:31:47.800 --> 01:31:50.520 which you do, but you really at some point go 1536 01:31:51.079 --> 01:31:53.880 can you cut scenes? Can you compress shooting? Can you 1537 01:31:53.920 --> 01:31:56.439 save on gays with actors? Those are the big things 1538 01:31:56.479 --> 01:32:00.000 you tend to look at. And so there had been 1539 01:32:00.079 --> 01:32:05.239 a couple of flashbacks written into the script that, personally 1540 01:32:05.399 --> 01:32:10.119 and lovely as they were, I thought were probably extraneous, 1541 01:32:10.159 --> 01:32:12.279 that they would probably never wind up in the final 1542 01:32:12.319 --> 01:32:15.359 cut of the film. And I went back and forth 1543 01:32:15.399 --> 01:32:19.760 with Stephen about that for a while, and he, like 1544 01:32:19.880 --> 01:32:22.880 every good director should, wanted to fight for everything, but 1545 01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:27.600 at a certain point he saw that the writing was 1546 01:32:27.640 --> 01:32:29.960 on the wall and if we didn't come back with 1547 01:32:30.680 --> 01:32:35.159 an adjustment to close the gap of a couple hundred 1548 01:32:35.159 --> 01:32:38.840 thousand dollars, And so I finally was like, okay, we'll 1549 01:32:38.880 --> 01:32:42.119 cut a couple of these flashbacks, So that helped. And 1550 01:32:42.159 --> 01:32:45.760 then the other thing is always having a good relationship 1551 01:32:45.800 --> 01:32:48.560 with the people who are heads of the department and 1552 01:32:48.680 --> 01:32:52.279 to really genuinely create a relationship where they know you're 1553 01:32:52.279 --> 01:32:54.359 pulling for them. You want them to look good, you 1554 01:32:54.399 --> 01:32:57.560 want them lovely, to look good. But then there becomes 1555 01:32:57.600 --> 01:33:01.119 this assessment you have to do about where do you 1556 01:33:01.199 --> 01:33:04.039 invest it, where do you want to impress the most 1557 01:33:04.119 --> 01:33:07.199 with production value, and then where do you know you 1558 01:33:07.239 --> 01:33:10.640 can cheat it. And with movies like The Grifters and 1559 01:33:10.680 --> 01:33:14.840 several other particularly period films they've worked on, you realize 1560 01:33:14.840 --> 01:33:18.000 you got invested in the beginnings of the movie where 1561 01:33:18.039 --> 01:33:20.880 you're trying to sell the period and really get the 1562 01:33:20.960 --> 01:33:24.479 audience bought in, and then you can cheat later on 1563 01:33:24.680 --> 01:33:28.319 and put corners once you've established. 1564 01:33:27.800 --> 01:33:29.239 The world and they're really in it. 1565 01:33:29.920 --> 01:33:32.920 And we did that with The Grifter to some extent. 1566 01:33:33.840 --> 01:33:37.279 The Grifter was both interior a lot of ways, and 1567 01:33:37.520 --> 01:33:41.840 yet it had these racetrack scenes and two different racetracks 1568 01:33:41.880 --> 01:33:46.800 and required traveling to reshout one near Los Angeles and 1569 01:33:46.880 --> 01:33:51.119 the other one in Phoenix, and so you still had 1570 01:33:52.039 --> 01:33:56.920 a somewhat ambitious scope to do with certain things, but 1571 01:33:56.960 --> 01:33:59.159 there's also tricks you try to do when the money 1572 01:33:59.199 --> 01:34:00.680 is tight, and that's a lot in the area of 1573 01:34:01.119 --> 01:34:05.800 location scouting married to the production design, try to find 1574 01:34:05.840 --> 01:34:09.199 places that bring a lot of the look already to 1575 01:34:09.279 --> 01:34:13.279 the table. For example, one of those great last shots 1576 01:34:13.319 --> 01:34:17.279 where Lily's going down in the elevator through that old 1577 01:34:17.319 --> 01:34:21.840 elevator that was over on wheel Share the east side 1578 01:34:21.880 --> 01:34:27.000 of town was great Bryce and Something apartments and there 1579 01:34:27.000 --> 01:34:28.920 it is. I think of the Grifters every time I 1580 01:34:29.039 --> 01:34:31.159 drive by them. Wonderful. 1581 01:34:32.119 --> 01:34:33.159 So that was it. 1582 01:34:33.479 --> 01:34:37.119 But you're always trying to figure out and you can 1583 01:34:37.159 --> 01:34:40.319 only do that in consultation with the director and trying 1584 01:34:40.319 --> 01:34:43.840 to get a buy in from the director about really 1585 01:34:43.880 --> 01:34:46.159 what do you care about? And my job is to 1586 01:34:46.199 --> 01:34:50.800 give you options for where we preserve the most important stuff. 1587 01:34:50.800 --> 01:34:53.359 And here's one, two or three different ideas about where 1588 01:34:53.399 --> 01:34:56.680 we could maybe scrape compromise, do we really need x 1589 01:34:56.720 --> 01:34:59.119 amount of critain days. These are the kind of things 1590 01:34:59.119 --> 01:35:02.079 you wind up talking about. But it also has to 1591 01:35:02.119 --> 01:35:05.680 be put within the context of what is the most 1592 01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:10.279 important for the movie and telling this story, and that's 1593 01:35:10.439 --> 01:35:12.239 also your job as the producer. 1594 01:35:12.680 --> 01:35:13.439 Is to protect. 1595 01:35:14.119 --> 01:35:16.159 You said that this was one of your favorite films 1596 01:35:16.199 --> 01:35:18.239 to have worked on. What were some of the better 1597 01:35:18.279 --> 01:35:19.520 memories that came out of this? 1598 01:35:20.439 --> 01:35:22.880 For me making The Grifters, it was the first time 1599 01:35:22.920 --> 01:35:25.840 I shot a film in LA and to come to 1600 01:35:26.079 --> 01:35:31.319 LA with that grifter world as part of the introduction 1601 01:35:31.479 --> 01:35:36.279 to really getting grounded in Los Angeles, it was pretty great. 1602 01:35:36.399 --> 01:35:41.399 It's a wonderful metaphor for Hollywood in subplays. The Grifters 1603 01:35:41.560 --> 01:35:46.199 was one of my favorite experiences because of the extraordinarily 1604 01:35:46.279 --> 01:35:50.159 gifted group of people who worked on it in key 1605 01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:53.279 capacities who are also manages. 1606 01:35:53.159 --> 01:35:54.159 And just people you like. 1607 01:35:54.960 --> 01:35:57.560 And you did feel like you were all pulling together 1608 01:35:57.920 --> 01:36:02.600 towards the same end goal, which means egos were kept 1609 01:36:02.680 --> 01:36:07.920 largely in check. And I love people who fight for 1610 01:36:08.000 --> 01:36:12.479 their department and what they need to do. You always 1611 01:36:12.479 --> 01:36:15.560 have to negotiate and you can't always give. But I 1612 01:36:15.640 --> 01:36:19.279 love people who have a clear vision but also get 1613 01:36:19.359 --> 01:36:23.239 involved with you as a partner and problem solving and 1614 01:36:23.319 --> 01:36:26.119 figuring out what can we trade up to make this work. 1615 01:36:26.960 --> 01:36:29.439 I always felt like we were all pulling in the 1616 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:32.880 same direction. But you look, you had Dennis Gassner, one 1617 01:36:32.920 --> 01:36:36.840 of the best production designers in the world making that movie, 1618 01:36:36.880 --> 01:36:40.479 designing that film earlier on in his career, surely one 1619 01:36:40.479 --> 01:36:43.880 of the most gifted costume designers I ever met. Richard Horning, 1620 01:36:43.960 --> 01:36:48.920 who regrettably is no longer with us, Oliver Stapleton, who 1621 01:36:49.000 --> 01:36:53.600 shot a bunch of Stephens films and is great. Mick Budsley, 1622 01:36:53.640 --> 01:36:57.399 who's cut almost all of Stephen's films that he's directed, 1623 01:36:57.600 --> 01:37:01.800 who is a gem and very good at his job 1624 01:37:01.880 --> 01:37:06.239 of storytelling in the editing room. Vicky Thomas and I 1625 01:37:06.279 --> 01:37:08.840 have remained friends to this day. I loved what she 1626 01:37:08.920 --> 01:37:13.720 brought to it now. She also worked with Marty's legendary 1627 01:37:13.840 --> 01:37:16.880 casting director in New York as well. But this was 1628 01:37:16.920 --> 01:37:19.399 a great moment in all of our lives. I think 1629 01:37:19.479 --> 01:37:22.159 where we were still early enough in our careers that 1630 01:37:22.239 --> 01:37:25.239 The Grifter was a real feather in our caps for 1631 01:37:25.439 --> 01:37:28.119 moving on from there. And I think that's part of 1632 01:37:28.159 --> 01:37:32.039 why I remember it so fondly. And you look at 1633 01:37:32.039 --> 01:37:36.600 that film, It's crameless, and the story holds up, the 1634 01:37:36.720 --> 01:37:40.319 telling of the story holds up. It had high production value. 1635 01:37:40.920 --> 01:37:43.279 My god, we made it look more than it cost. 1636 01:37:43.760 --> 01:37:47.119 I think he got to meet Ricky Jay who was 1637 01:37:47.119 --> 01:37:52.520 the consultant on the Grifter schemes? Who is could you 1638 01:37:52.560 --> 01:37:55.720 get anything better than that? You had Elmer Bernstein doing 1639 01:37:55.760 --> 01:38:02.079 the score. I still can go that ditty of the Grifter, 1640 01:38:02.199 --> 01:38:05.800 which that thing starts so fun in the beginning, and 1641 01:38:05.840 --> 01:38:10.680 then it just gets darker and darker. Another one of 1642 01:38:10.680 --> 01:38:15.079 my very strong memories from The Grifters was the scene 1643 01:38:15.840 --> 01:38:20.720 towards the end of the film wax Roy is manipulating 1644 01:38:20.800 --> 01:38:22.920 him to try to get the money she needs to 1645 01:38:23.319 --> 01:38:27.560 run away and winds up killing him by whacking that 1646 01:38:27.600 --> 01:38:32.720 piece of glass and inadvertently into his neck. And there 1647 01:38:32.760 --> 01:38:35.960 she is keening over the body and has to pull 1648 01:38:36.000 --> 01:38:41.479 herself together to leave. Big shot, big scene, climatic moment, 1649 01:38:41.600 --> 01:38:44.560 three cameras on it, do it all, And so it 1650 01:38:44.600 --> 01:38:47.479 was done largely with the coverage of the three cameras. 1651 01:38:47.520 --> 01:38:54.000 In one take when Stephen coult cut I remember Angelica 1652 01:38:54.239 --> 01:38:59.279 was sobbing she could not pull herself together, and Stephen basically, 1653 01:38:59.319 --> 01:39:03.239 I shouldn't be and patted me on the shoulder. Go 1654 01:39:03.359 --> 01:39:07.800 in and talk to her and help her, and I'm like, okay. 1655 01:39:08.439 --> 01:39:10.800 And I remember going in and sitting with her. It 1656 01:39:10.840 --> 01:39:13.119 must have been there was a bedroom on the side, 1657 01:39:13.159 --> 01:39:16.760 sitting on the bed, and she just said it reminded 1658 01:39:17.199 --> 01:39:20.800 her father had not died that long, much before this, 1659 01:39:21.079 --> 01:39:25.600 and she just kept thinking about her father, and that 1660 01:39:26.560 --> 01:39:30.840 grief just came over her fully in the moment. And 1661 01:39:31.039 --> 01:39:34.239 I remember sitting there just trying to listen and be 1662 01:39:34.319 --> 01:39:37.640 of some comfort and a witness to the moment. 1663 01:39:38.319 --> 01:39:40.399 How was the film received when it came out. 1664 01:39:40.720 --> 01:39:45.920 The reception to The Grifters was really positive critically, but 1665 01:39:46.199 --> 01:39:49.920 it was not a knockout at the box office. In 1666 01:39:50.000 --> 01:39:55.079 the years since, I really do think it's become esteemed 1667 01:39:55.600 --> 01:40:00.239 and is considered a classic, a neo noir classic. Even 1668 01:40:00.279 --> 01:40:04.399 with the critical support, it did not break over into 1669 01:40:05.199 --> 01:40:09.720 wide success. But again you've got Steven his reputation and 1670 01:40:09.840 --> 01:40:13.039 did well in Europe. It just didn't break out at 1671 01:40:13.119 --> 01:40:16.920 the American box office in a great sense. But the 1672 01:40:17.039 --> 01:40:23.319 thing about The Grifters now, I think is that it 1673 01:40:23.359 --> 01:40:28.239 has just grown and grown in its appreciation. There were 1674 01:40:28.279 --> 01:40:30.920 a lot of leather neil noir films made right around 1675 01:40:30.960 --> 01:40:33.119 the time The Grifters. There were about three or four, 1676 01:40:34.079 --> 01:40:39.439 and I don't think anybody respectfully recalls the other ones much, 1677 01:40:40.279 --> 01:40:45.560 But most books remember the grifters, and it continues to 1678 01:40:45.640 --> 01:40:50.720 be rediscovered with new generations, so I think it has 1679 01:40:50.800 --> 01:40:52.720 become a contemporary classic. 1680 01:40:53.520 --> 01:40:55.439 You said that you saw it recently. Are you seeing 1681 01:40:55.479 --> 01:40:58.520 that with an audience or was that just on your own. 1682 01:40:59.199 --> 01:41:02.920 I did see it big theater a while ago, and 1683 01:41:03.000 --> 01:41:05.520 let me say it still holds up. That film was 1684 01:41:05.560 --> 01:41:08.840 shot really well. Oh yeah, and I'll just say it again. 1685 01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:13.399 Stephen is an amazing director who knows how to use 1686 01:41:13.439 --> 01:41:19.600 the language of cinema and every tool at a director's disposal. 1687 01:41:20.319 --> 01:41:24.039 I learned a lot about filmmaking working with him. Every 1688 01:41:24.079 --> 01:41:27.039 time it pops up, if I'm run across it on TV, 1689 01:41:27.199 --> 01:41:29.439 I just think, oh, I'll just watch a minute or two, 1690 01:41:29.520 --> 01:41:31.399 and I allays be looking. 1691 01:41:31.159 --> 01:41:31.720 To the end. 1692 01:41:32.640 --> 01:41:35.319 Honestly, I can tell you how many times I've seen 1693 01:41:35.359 --> 01:41:39.560 it by now. A boy still holds up. Also, one 1694 01:41:39.600 --> 01:41:42.359 of the great things about working on that film was 1695 01:41:43.239 --> 01:41:49.119 Stephen is his prodigious knowledge of film history and really 1696 01:41:49.359 --> 01:41:54.359 talking about the other noir films that were evocative of 1697 01:41:54.399 --> 01:41:57.520 what he was going for with this, but really finding 1698 01:41:57.560 --> 01:42:02.000 out about some of the best Robert Mitchin There's Katee Fear, 1699 01:42:02.600 --> 01:42:10.359 but all that stuff about how those male characters very 1700 01:42:10.439 --> 01:42:14.760 often get undone by women. Sometimes if you're Bobie, you 1701 01:42:14.840 --> 01:42:17.600 are smart. The woman you've fallen in love with, who, 1702 01:42:17.600 --> 01:42:19.720 by the way, has turned out to kill your best friend. 1703 01:42:20.640 --> 01:42:24.479 But what was great about Stephen in that story is 1704 01:42:24.600 --> 01:42:29.439 he always said, it's actually not qsx's characters story, it's 1705 01:42:29.439 --> 01:42:33.760 not Roy's story, it's Lily's. And that was what O'donald 1706 01:42:33.800 --> 01:42:38.800 West like into writing script once he said it was Lily's. 1707 01:42:38.880 --> 01:42:42.000 Donald's like, Okay, I got it. And that's the thing 1708 01:42:42.079 --> 01:42:46.359 about Stephen's stuff. I think that it is in its 1709 01:42:46.359 --> 01:42:49.800 own way very feminist, but no one would ever describe 1710 01:42:49.800 --> 01:42:53.560 the film as that. But even in little things in 1711 01:42:53.600 --> 01:42:58.279 the background, like that wonderful Henry Jones character actor that 1712 01:42:58.600 --> 01:43:01.520 is at the hotel when you check in and all that, 1713 01:43:01.880 --> 01:43:06.439 he's well, i'd always pontificating. And if you just look 1714 01:43:06.479 --> 01:43:09.880 in the background, you see a woman just working mopping 1715 01:43:09.880 --> 01:43:12.880 the floors, doing the hard work while he's there pontific 1716 01:43:14.239 --> 01:43:18.279 So even in that that was intentional in a statement 1717 01:43:18.520 --> 01:43:22.920 that Stephen, I know consciously put in women are always 1718 01:43:22.920 --> 01:43:25.720 doing the work and the cleanup in the back. 1719 01:43:26.479 --> 01:43:30.079 Did you get to work much with Donald Weslake Oh. 1720 01:43:30.199 --> 01:43:34.199 Donald came out to location and while we were doing rehearsals, 1721 01:43:34.800 --> 01:43:39.439 he would sit in on rehearsals and help tweak stuff. Yeah, 1722 01:43:39.520 --> 01:43:42.039 but I wish I had more time with him, and 1723 01:43:42.079 --> 01:43:47.039 I wish i'd had Honestly, I wish I had more 1724 01:43:47.319 --> 01:43:49.640 or you'd take him more of an opportunity to get 1725 01:43:49.640 --> 01:43:52.239 to know him better. But he was only out here 1726 01:43:52.840 --> 01:43:56.600 a short period of time, so I didn't get to him. 1727 01:43:57.039 --> 01:44:01.600 Barbara will have spent more time, I think Donald. What 1728 01:44:01.680 --> 01:44:06.199 I will say is, when Stephen wanted to commit to 1729 01:44:06.239 --> 01:44:09.520 the film, he wanted Donald, and he's the one who 1730 01:44:09.560 --> 01:44:14.680 really I think pursued Donald. Didn't help convince Donald to 1731 01:44:14.760 --> 01:44:15.680 do the screen. 1732 01:44:16.359 --> 01:44:18.920 I had heard that he wanted Donald to use the 1733 01:44:19.039 --> 01:44:21.199 Richard Stark pseudonym for the screenplay. 1734 01:44:22.039 --> 01:44:26.279 That's very Stephen. I must say that I'm happy Donald put. 1735 01:44:26.079 --> 01:44:26.640 His own name. 1736 01:44:26.720 --> 01:44:26.920 Mother. 1737 01:44:28.960 --> 01:44:31.560 I will say that, man, it was stunning. I hadn't 1738 01:44:31.600 --> 01:44:35.680 realized the pseudonyms Donald dues, and how many books that 1739 01:44:35.760 --> 01:44:40.199 man actually wrote. It's stunning. That's where he reminds me 1740 01:44:40.239 --> 01:44:43.640 of John Sales. John Sales was just always knocking stuff 1741 01:44:43.720 --> 01:44:46.319 up again, Like John Sales wrote The Brother from Another 1742 01:44:46.399 --> 01:44:51.600 Planet in less than six weeks. We were fighting locations, casting, 1743 01:44:52.319 --> 01:44:55.319 figuring out the budget, all that without a script. Wow, 1744 01:44:56.000 --> 01:44:58.119 we have had the script, I think two weeks before 1745 01:44:58.119 --> 01:45:01.760 we started shooting. Wo we would write out on outline 1746 01:45:01.760 --> 01:45:03.520 of this is what's going to happen here all that, 1747 01:45:03.560 --> 01:45:07.319 and we went okay, author from what we needed. 1748 01:45:08.039 --> 01:45:10.560 Tell me about your film, Trevor, and how that kind 1749 01:45:10.560 --> 01:45:12.920 of changed thejectory of your life a little bit. 1750 01:45:13.760 --> 01:45:16.920 I love my Trevor. Let's see where do we start. 1751 01:45:17.720 --> 01:45:20.920 I had directed second unit on several of the films 1752 01:45:20.960 --> 01:45:24.640 I produced, and it's appointed, but I'd like to direct 1753 01:45:24.680 --> 01:45:27.359 a movie or something. I just don't know what it is, 1754 01:45:27.399 --> 01:45:30.840 and I guess i'll know when it shows up. And 1755 01:45:31.760 --> 01:45:34.800 I actually cut to me being in New York. I 1756 01:45:34.840 --> 01:45:38.039 had just finished up producing a film that actually turned 1757 01:45:38.039 --> 01:45:41.720 out to be not a pleasant experience for me, and 1758 01:45:41.960 --> 01:45:45.000 I even got to the point of, oh lord, I 1759 01:45:45.000 --> 01:45:46.880 don't know if I if this is what it's going 1760 01:45:46.960 --> 01:45:49.680 to be, I don't know that I want to keep going. 1761 01:45:50.079 --> 01:45:54.479 It was really difficult in culture, and unlike any of 1762 01:45:54.479 --> 01:45:56.520 the other films I had made up to that point, 1763 01:45:56.600 --> 01:46:00.640 which were all really wonderful, collaborative, all on the sun 1764 01:46:00.880 --> 01:46:04.840 page kind of experiences. But while I was in New York, 1765 01:46:05.039 --> 01:46:09.640 I met a very accomplished writer named Eve Ensler who 1766 01:46:09.680 --> 01:46:11.920 wrote for the stage, the woman who went on to 1767 01:46:11.960 --> 01:46:14.880 do the Vagina Mounta Logs and all that. And she 1768 01:46:15.000 --> 01:46:18.479 told me she actually had directed a little show downtown, 1769 01:46:18.560 --> 01:46:22.600 a one man show called Word of Mouths, and she 1770 01:46:22.680 --> 01:46:24.640 thought I'd like it, that I should go see it. 1771 01:46:25.560 --> 01:46:29.800 Snowy night in December, I truned the land and the 1772 01:46:29.840 --> 01:46:33.600 show was remarkable for many reasons, but within it was 1773 01:46:33.680 --> 01:46:35.680 this seven minute sketch. 1774 01:46:36.039 --> 01:46:36.439 As one. 1775 01:46:36.479 --> 01:46:40.600 WOTON shows are comprised of about a thirteen year old 1776 01:46:40.600 --> 01:46:45.800 boy named Trevor who the world gets turned upside down 1777 01:46:45.840 --> 01:46:49.800 overnight when word spreads at school that he's gay. And 1778 01:46:49.920 --> 01:46:55.039 Trevor is this a brilliant kid who just loves musical theater, 1779 01:46:55.680 --> 01:46:59.880 he loves Diana Ross sent nineteen eighty one, and he 1780 01:47:00.359 --> 01:47:06.399 just this charming kid because he's so in the sickcansiastic 1781 01:47:06.479 --> 01:47:10.199 about everything. And what the writter had done that was 1782 01:47:10.239 --> 01:47:15.439 so remarkable is he made it funny and heartbreaking at 1783 01:47:15.479 --> 01:47:18.199 the same time, because the character does at a certain 1784 01:47:18.199 --> 01:47:22.039 point think he should check out and makes an attempt 1785 01:47:22.039 --> 01:47:27.399 to take his online and so here's this little, heartwarming, 1786 01:47:27.560 --> 01:47:33.119 poignant comedy about suicide. I can only tell you it 1787 01:47:33.279 --> 01:47:37.439 marked me. I loved it. I am a white, cis 1788 01:47:37.640 --> 01:47:41.960 gender heterosexual woman, but I understood that kid, and I 1789 01:47:42.039 --> 01:47:45.960 understood how it feels and the price of shame and 1790 01:47:46.039 --> 01:47:50.560 how much SHAMEE can kill. I just loved it. I 1791 01:47:50.640 --> 01:47:56.239 had my producing partner and friend, Randy Stone, come in 1792 01:47:56.279 --> 01:47:58.680 to see if Randy and I had met making Little 1793 01:47:58.720 --> 01:48:01.800 Man Take together produced that he was THEEP on it, 1794 01:48:02.640 --> 01:48:05.960 and Randy, a game man, came out and I could 1795 01:48:06.000 --> 01:48:08.880 see the same thing had happened to him, laughing, and 1796 01:48:08.880 --> 01:48:12.039 he could still see he had cried, and he just said, look, 1797 01:48:12.159 --> 01:48:14.600 we got to make a film out of that. And 1798 01:48:15.079 --> 01:48:19.359 it was like, okay, it was avaran for both of us. 1799 01:48:19.479 --> 01:48:22.720 Randy and I had both worked in the film world producing. 1800 01:48:22.840 --> 01:48:27.560 Randy was a very accomplished casting director in television. He 1801 01:48:27.680 --> 01:48:29.239 cast Expiles a bunch. 1802 01:48:29.079 --> 01:48:32.640 Of other great shows, and we really took it on 1803 01:48:32.760 --> 01:48:36.359 as a bit of a fluke, and luckily, because we 1804 01:48:36.439 --> 01:48:39.960 both had decades of working with people in the business, 1805 01:48:39.960 --> 01:48:41.479 we called in every favor in. 1806 01:48:41.439 --> 01:48:44.840 The book to get this film made. We met with 1807 01:48:44.960 --> 01:48:47.399 the writer who had never written for film before and 1808 01:48:47.800 --> 01:48:51.640 worked with them too, I think wound up creating a 1809 01:48:51.680 --> 01:48:55.159 beautiful screenpi and in the course of that I just 1810 01:48:55.239 --> 01:48:58.720 realized I could see every shot. So at the moment 1811 01:48:59.000 --> 01:49:01.520 it came to say going to direct it, I just said, 1812 01:49:01.800 --> 01:49:05.079 I want to. I really see it. It's so clear 1813 01:49:05.079 --> 01:49:08.359 to me what it should be. And Randy, who had 1814 01:49:08.399 --> 01:49:11.159 seen some of my work as a sainame unit director, 1815 01:49:11.199 --> 01:49:13.880 just said, love it, go for it. I think that's 1816 01:49:13.920 --> 01:49:18.840 a great idea. So that's what we did, and so 1817 01:49:19.520 --> 01:49:24.439 off we went. We raised money. What the writer Celestiless 1818 01:49:24.479 --> 01:49:27.800 Scene had shared with us is that part of what 1819 01:49:27.880 --> 01:49:30.800 motivated him to write that sketch in the first place 1820 01:49:31.680 --> 01:49:34.039 is that he had just heard a report on MPR 1821 01:49:34.560 --> 01:49:38.840 about the higher rate of suicidal risk among LGBTQ plus suits, 1822 01:49:39.600 --> 01:49:42.840 and it turned out that the government itself had documented 1823 01:49:42.920 --> 01:49:46.640 that queer youth were three to four times as likely 1824 01:49:46.760 --> 01:49:49.640 to make an attempt on their life as they're straight peers. 1825 01:49:50.279 --> 01:49:53.720 We know now in the years since that risk goes 1826 01:49:53.760 --> 01:49:55.720 up to it at least ten times as high as 1827 01:49:55.880 --> 01:50:00.359 raight peers if you'd come from an unaccepting family way. 1828 01:50:00.600 --> 01:50:06.319 That was shocking to me. And when we made the film. 1829 01:50:06.479 --> 01:50:09.880 I contacted friends who did educational distributor, and I knew 1830 01:50:09.880 --> 01:50:11.439 that we would be able to use the film to 1831 01:50:11.479 --> 01:50:14.600 get it out there in schools as like a teaching 1832 01:50:14.680 --> 01:50:21.000 kid to help support mental health and talk about wanting 1833 01:50:21.039 --> 01:50:26.319 to create more accepting environments for gain questioning. That was 1834 01:50:27.000 --> 01:50:29.880 the coming together of it. We were lucky enough to 1835 01:50:29.960 --> 01:50:33.399 raise money, friends, family, and we go ahead and we 1836 01:50:33.479 --> 01:50:37.119 make the film. The film goes on, it starts winning 1837 01:50:37.159 --> 01:50:41.000 awards at all these short film festivals and voila, oh 1838 01:50:41.039 --> 01:50:44.640 my lord, we get a Tenny Award nomination for Best 1839 01:50:44.640 --> 01:50:48.800 Short and even better when it was quite a remarkable 1840 01:50:48.920 --> 01:50:54.239 night and I must say a very proud directorial debut 1841 01:50:54.439 --> 01:50:54.760 for me. 1842 01:50:55.239 --> 01:50:56.119 Yeah. 1843 01:50:56.359 --> 01:50:59.840 So we're celebrating our soul, happy, all this stuff, and 1844 01:51:00.159 --> 01:51:04.880 then this remarkable thing develops two years later, which is 1845 01:51:05.239 --> 01:51:08.680 that we were able to secure and this has never 1846 01:51:08.720 --> 01:51:15.119 been done, a unique slot to present Trevor with an 1847 01:51:15.159 --> 01:51:18.920 introduction and wrap around by Ellen DeGeneres. And this was 1848 01:51:18.960 --> 01:51:21.680 a ninety eight and it was the urgit. Ellen had 1849 01:51:21.720 --> 01:51:24.479 just come out as Gate. So there we're going to 1850 01:51:24.520 --> 01:51:27.880 be tons of people watching it, and we knew we'd 1851 01:51:27.880 --> 01:51:31.079 get a lot of press around it. All, which turned 1852 01:51:31.079 --> 01:51:33.800 out to be two. But I'm sharing the good news 1853 01:51:33.840 --> 01:51:36.119 about this event with a friend who just says, there's 1854 01:51:36.119 --> 01:51:37.880 probably going to be a lot of kids who feel 1855 01:51:37.920 --> 01:51:40.880 like Trevor watching it. You should put up a number 1856 01:51:40.880 --> 01:51:43.840 for them to call. And it was like a bolt 1857 01:51:43.840 --> 01:51:46.319 of lightning hit me and I went, Oh, my god, 1858 01:51:46.399 --> 01:51:48.119 she's right. And I thought, oh God, I just have 1859 01:51:48.239 --> 01:51:50.600 to find one. There must be one knowing one a 1860 01:51:50.640 --> 01:51:54.840 mental health crisis. There must be one in existence. Looked 1861 01:51:54.840 --> 01:51:58.600 all around and I found two lines that said they 1862 01:51:58.600 --> 01:52:03.119 were open on the weekend targeting, or rather set up 1863 01:52:03.159 --> 01:52:05.760 to serve. If I called both them, didn't get an 1864 01:52:05.760 --> 01:52:08.880 answer at either. And it was at that moment I said, 1865 01:52:09.680 --> 01:52:12.039 if there isn't, then we'll just have to create. And 1866 01:52:12.079 --> 01:52:16.199 that's where the producing chops come in. Producing is the 1867 01:52:16.239 --> 01:52:21.399 word producings, make something, not nothing. And that's how the 1868 01:52:21.439 --> 01:52:25.199 Trevor Project came to be and the driver helpline. So 1869 01:52:25.319 --> 01:52:28.920 again I found somebody who was an expert in mental 1870 01:52:28.960 --> 01:52:32.800 help and in sucide prevention. They were running one of 1871 01:52:32.880 --> 01:52:36.880 the best services actually here in Los Angeles and nationally recognized. 1872 01:52:37.199 --> 01:52:40.199 Wound up making a deal to piggyback with their counselor 1873 01:52:41.000 --> 01:52:43.640 the head of it was gay. He had always wanted 1874 01:52:43.680 --> 01:52:46.840 to do something like this for gay youth, and he 1875 01:52:47.000 --> 01:52:49.119 was like, Okay, I'll train the counselors if you can 1876 01:52:49.159 --> 01:52:52.119 find the funding to pull this off. And that's how 1877 01:52:52.119 --> 01:52:54.680 we got it off the ground in three months time. 1878 01:52:55.159 --> 01:53:01.079 In the years since, we were able to build up resources, 1879 01:53:01.239 --> 01:53:05.479 bring the counselors in house, and up to the pandemic, 1880 01:53:05.600 --> 01:53:09.079 we had offices and call centers in both Los Angeles 1881 01:53:09.119 --> 01:53:13.600 and New York. Now we're fully remote, which I think 1882 01:53:13.680 --> 01:53:17.840 is actually great because you can now champ people and 1883 01:53:18.039 --> 01:53:23.119 entrained counselors remotely, and we have people who bring all 1884 01:53:23.279 --> 01:53:26.600 different walks of life in different areas to working on 1885 01:53:26.760 --> 01:53:30.760 the crisis center. One of the most striking things about 1886 01:53:30.920 --> 01:53:34.640 the HBO experience for me, I was actually at the 1887 01:53:34.680 --> 01:53:39.439 call center the night the film aired and premiered on HBO. 1888 01:53:40.239 --> 01:53:44.399 I was standing there at five o'clock when the film 1889 01:53:44.760 --> 01:53:49.920 ended and Ellen did a wonderful wrap up about it, 1890 01:53:50.680 --> 01:53:54.640 and the number came on screen and the phones started 1891 01:53:54.720 --> 01:54:01.439 ringing off the hook. Immediately, I started shaking, and over 1892 01:54:01.479 --> 01:54:04.720 fifteen hundred calls came in that first night, and honestly 1893 01:54:04.800 --> 01:54:08.039 have not stopped since Trevor's much bigger now it's a 1894 01:54:08.079 --> 01:54:13.520 five hundred plus organization. I'm actually in a weird full 1895 01:54:13.560 --> 01:54:18.640 circle moment serving as the interim CEO right now, and 1896 01:54:19.680 --> 01:54:21.520 I have been doing that for about the last year 1897 01:54:21.560 --> 01:54:24.520 and a half as we transition to our next leader. 1898 01:54:25.399 --> 01:54:32.000 And it's extraordinary to me to be in this position. 1899 01:54:32.159 --> 01:54:35.319 I've done with it for the twenty five years. It 1900 01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:39.319 actually started around my dining room table, so it's been 1901 01:54:40.239 --> 01:54:45.119 a really long journey I never saw coming, never anticipated, 1902 01:54:45.760 --> 01:54:47.920 but it has truly turned out to be one of 1903 01:54:47.960 --> 01:54:52.800 the most fulfilling and rewarding experiences of my life. And 1904 01:54:52.840 --> 01:54:58.720 at this juncture, I've had a really wonderful career producing film, 1905 01:54:59.199 --> 01:55:03.840 got to direct few things, which I love. I think 1906 01:55:03.880 --> 01:55:06.840 producing made me a better director when I started, and 1907 01:55:06.920 --> 01:55:09.920 directing made me a better producer after I had done it. 1908 01:55:10.960 --> 01:55:14.720 I took that accrude knowledge and I actually was invited 1909 01:55:14.760 --> 01:55:17.520 to come set up the creative producing program at NYU 1910 01:55:17.600 --> 01:55:20.600 Grad Film and I did that and taught at. 1911 01:55:20.479 --> 01:55:22.039 M YU for a while. 1912 01:55:22.439 --> 01:55:26.560 Immensely talented people that came out of there, including people 1913 01:55:26.600 --> 01:55:30.640 like Chloe Jah Ray Green in that period of time, 1914 01:55:31.600 --> 01:55:35.600 and then I also served as a dean of a 1915 01:55:35.640 --> 01:55:38.079 top ten wrining film school here in Los Angeles for 1916 01:55:38.159 --> 01:55:41.560 a couple of years, and now I'm a CEO West 1917 01:55:42.880 --> 01:55:47.039 in a transition period at the Trevor Project. So all 1918 01:55:47.079 --> 01:55:50.399 I can say is life has fall surprises and I 1919 01:55:50.439 --> 01:55:53.119 feel very blessed. There were lots of ups and downs 1920 01:55:53.119 --> 01:55:56.680 along the way, but I'm grateful to be at this 1921 01:55:56.760 --> 01:56:00.640 position now. I also still work with the me I've 1922 01:56:00.640 --> 01:56:04.720 been an Academy member since the late eighties and I 1923 01:56:04.800 --> 01:56:08.920 now serve as the chair of the Student Academy Awards Committee, 1924 01:56:09.560 --> 01:56:13.239 and I also sit on the executive committee for the 1925 01:56:13.279 --> 01:56:17.760 Producer's Branch. So I love I still have my foot 1926 01:56:17.760 --> 01:56:19.920 in the door with the film business, and in some 1927 01:56:20.039 --> 01:56:20.760 different ways. 1928 01:56:20.840 --> 01:56:24.520 These days it sounds like you are a very busy person. 1929 01:56:25.439 --> 01:56:26.239 I have been. 1930 01:56:26.520 --> 01:56:28.680 And one of the other things I do that I 1931 01:56:28.880 --> 01:56:33.119 just absolutely love is I've taught workshops for film independence 1932 01:56:33.239 --> 01:56:36.880 global media makers, like I went to Tunisia and taught 1933 01:56:36.920 --> 01:56:41.039 a week long workshop there on pitching and producing and 1934 01:56:41.119 --> 01:56:44.560 I love it, And really, to be honest, I'm at 1935 01:56:44.560 --> 01:56:48.279 the point where I get so much out of you 1936 01:56:48.479 --> 01:56:51.000 call it giving back, but you always get fed by it. 1937 01:56:51.079 --> 01:56:56.560 So It's definitely a win when exchange. But I'd love 1938 01:56:56.640 --> 01:57:01.239 mentoring the next generation of filmmakers. I just and what 1939 01:57:01.319 --> 01:57:03.560 you always try to do, and every good teacher that 1940 01:57:03.640 --> 01:57:05.880 I know does this. You just try to help them 1941 01:57:05.920 --> 01:57:09.159 not make the same mistakes you did. They'll make their own, 1942 01:57:09.640 --> 01:57:12.039 but you just try to help them shortcut not to 1943 01:57:12.239 --> 01:57:15.319 repeat some of the gaps. I try to fill in 1944 01:57:15.319 --> 01:57:17.880 the gaps in my knowledge that I wish i'd had 1945 01:57:17.920 --> 01:57:19.279 when I was starting out. 1946 01:57:19.640 --> 01:57:20.840 That's what I try to. 1947 01:57:21.000 --> 01:57:25.319 Imbue the folks I'm lucky enough to work with and teach. 1948 01:57:25.880 --> 01:57:28.039 Ms RISKI thank you so much for your time. This 1949 01:57:28.119 --> 01:57:28.960 has been wonderful. 1950 01:57:29.760 --> 01:57:31.560 Hope you got some stuff you can use. 1951 01:57:47.199 --> 01:57:47.520 All right. 1952 01:57:47.640 --> 01:57:50.600 Up next we have producer Barbara Defina. We started the 1953 01:57:50.600 --> 01:57:53.079 conversation by me telling her just how many movies that 1954 01:57:53.159 --> 01:57:56.359 she's produced that I've loved over the years. 1955 01:57:56.600 --> 01:57:58.680 I was like a fly on the wall. I was 1956 01:57:58.760 --> 01:58:03.399 like a production coordinator or assystem production coordinator. The first 1957 01:58:03.439 --> 01:58:05.920 movie I ever worked on was a Sydney Lamet movie. 1958 01:58:05.960 --> 01:58:07.680 It was called blood Kin, but I think it had 1959 01:58:07.720 --> 01:58:11.000 another name when they released it. But it was great 1960 01:58:11.079 --> 01:58:14.640 to see and James Wangou was the DPA who is 1961 01:58:15.680 --> 01:58:21.159 amazing Academy Award winner, and I'm sure Robert Hooks was 1962 01:58:21.159 --> 01:58:24.520 in it and Lynn Redgray. I had no idea. I 1963 01:58:24.560 --> 01:58:27.239 thought it was just it was a great job. And 1964 01:58:27.239 --> 01:58:30.840 then Little Murders of course with Alan Arkin and Elliott, 1965 01:58:31.079 --> 01:58:33.960 and I think it was Marsha Rod was a great 1966 01:58:34.039 --> 01:58:37.600 fun movie. I was coordinator again, and it's hard to 1967 01:58:37.640 --> 01:58:39.680 remember all of the every once in a while and 1968 01:58:39.720 --> 01:58:41.840 one of them pops up. Oh yeah, I remember that 1969 01:58:42.239 --> 01:58:44.520 Interiors with what He was the only Woody Allen movie 1970 01:58:44.520 --> 01:58:47.960 I ever did, and he and the DP were fighting. 1971 01:58:48.800 --> 01:58:52.680 We were trapped out in the Hampton's in the winter. 1972 01:58:53.640 --> 01:58:56.840 So it was I think that was the last coordinator 1973 01:58:56.920 --> 01:58:59.600 job I did. But at that point I said, maybe 1974 01:58:59.600 --> 01:59:01.880 I can do I'll do something else. I'll try, and 1975 01:59:02.119 --> 01:59:05.880 so I did. But that was the end for. 1976 01:59:05.920 --> 01:59:06.600 Me on that. 1977 01:59:07.359 --> 01:59:09.439 How did you even get into that type of work? 1978 01:59:10.239 --> 01:59:13.680 It was by chance. I wanted to work in the 1979 01:59:13.680 --> 01:59:16.880 theater and I was always interested in sort of costumes 1980 01:59:17.159 --> 01:59:19.960 and design and stuff. I'd been to the theater a lot, 1981 01:59:20.000 --> 01:59:23.560 but I had no idea how you got a job there. 1982 01:59:24.199 --> 01:59:26.680 So I got the closest job I could get, which 1983 01:59:26.720 --> 01:59:31.520 was working for television. Commercial production company, and as secretary. 1984 01:59:31.880 --> 01:59:34.800 It turned out that they had a little studio that 1985 01:59:34.920 --> 01:59:37.159 I guess used to be an old stable or something. 1986 01:59:37.560 --> 01:59:41.239 Now I think it's a grocery store, but they used 1987 01:59:41.239 --> 01:59:43.760 to do commercials. Then you shoot the commercials there and 1988 01:59:43.840 --> 01:59:47.119 for some reason, after a couple of weeks, somebody must 1989 01:59:47.159 --> 01:59:49.079 have quit or something, and they sent me over there 1990 01:59:49.119 --> 01:59:52.439 to work, and I met a bunch of the union 1991 01:59:53.800 --> 01:59:58.880 crew and the place, of course went bankrupt several months later, 1992 01:59:59.159 --> 02:00:02.039 but one of them said, Hey, my brothers the business 1993 02:00:02.119 --> 02:00:05.239 agent makeup and hair, so i'll introduce you. He's looking 1994 02:00:05.239 --> 02:00:07.960 for someone. So I worked at the makeup and hair 1995 02:00:08.000 --> 02:00:12.800 local the IA for maybe six months or a year, 1996 02:00:13.439 --> 02:00:15.159 and then the deal was he was going to introduce 1997 02:00:15.199 --> 02:00:19.159 me to someone else to help me get into the business, 1998 02:00:19.439 --> 02:00:21.640 which he did, and he took me down to the 1999 02:00:21.920 --> 02:00:26.479 actually it was the script supervisors and production coordinators local, 2000 02:00:27.159 --> 02:00:29.520 and I was lucky. It was busy and they had 2001 02:00:29.520 --> 02:00:31.239 a spot for me. So they put me on the 2002 02:00:31.279 --> 02:00:34.039 City Lammett movie and that was how I got in. 2003 02:00:34.119 --> 02:00:36.560 So it was completely by chance. 2004 02:00:37.359 --> 02:00:41.159 I know you produced the Last Temptation of Christ, but yeah, 2005 02:00:41.439 --> 02:00:43.680 it took so long for that movie to get made. 2006 02:00:43.720 --> 02:00:45.119 When did you first get involved with that. 2007 02:00:45.760 --> 02:00:51.640 I got involved toward the end just before. Yes, they 2008 02:00:51.680 --> 02:00:55.680 had problems and their threats of violence, and the theater 2009 02:00:55.800 --> 02:00:59.880 owners wouldn't take the movie. So every time they would 2010 02:00:59.880 --> 02:01:03.079 make a deal then that people would pull out because 2011 02:01:03.079 --> 02:01:05.119 they couldn't make their money back because they couldn't put 2012 02:01:05.119 --> 02:01:10.079 it in a theater, and Cineplex Odeon said they would 2013 02:01:10.119 --> 02:01:14.239 take it. And meanwhile, Marty had been I don't know 2014 02:01:14.279 --> 02:01:17.439 if he was with an agency, but he was introduced 2015 02:01:17.479 --> 02:01:22.680 to Mike Ovidz at CIA, and Mike talked Tom Pollock 2016 02:01:22.800 --> 02:01:26.800 into making the movie, and so Marty's out of gratitude, 2017 02:01:27.359 --> 02:01:30.960 signed with CIA, and that's how the movie got made. 2018 02:01:31.039 --> 02:01:33.399 And it was just when Tom Pollack had started at 2019 02:01:33.560 --> 02:01:36.439 He was a great lawyer and had just started with 2020 02:01:36.560 --> 02:01:40.199 the studio. I don't want to say naive, but freedom 2021 02:01:40.239 --> 02:01:42.560 of speech, and as a lawyer, I think he had 2022 02:01:42.640 --> 02:01:46.680 no idea what problems he had inherited. But we went 2023 02:01:46.720 --> 02:01:51.199 to Morocco and we made the movie for a very 2024 02:01:51.239 --> 02:01:54.359 reduced price. Part of the problem was that before I started, 2025 02:01:54.720 --> 02:01:56.960 the budget was much too high and it was just 2026 02:01:56.960 --> 02:02:00.800 too much to risk. So we had to do indie 2027 02:02:00.840 --> 02:02:04.880 budget and do it offshore, and so that's how it 2028 02:02:04.920 --> 02:02:09.239 got made. Still have problems in the theaters, but Cineplex 2029 02:02:09.279 --> 02:02:15.439 Audion did deliver and it did get some theatrical release. 2030 02:02:16.359 --> 02:02:20.279 But there were people out lined up outside. There were 2031 02:02:20.319 --> 02:02:23.760 some women in blue who were lined up outside praying 2032 02:02:23.840 --> 02:02:27.960 every day. Most of the people that were really angry 2033 02:02:28.359 --> 02:02:31.319 had never seen the movie or read the book. They 2034 02:02:31.319 --> 02:02:35.199 were just in theory, very upset by it. They also 2035 02:02:35.199 --> 02:02:37.399 thought there were sex scenes and all sorts of stuff 2036 02:02:37.399 --> 02:02:39.600 which aren't in the just nothing like that in the movie. 2037 02:02:40.840 --> 02:02:42.079 But that's what happens. 2038 02:02:42.760 --> 02:02:44.119 How did the Grifters come to you? 2039 02:02:44.920 --> 02:02:49.239 It came from I forget who gave it to Marty 2040 02:02:49.880 --> 02:02:54.920 to direct. There were two producers, Jim Payton and now 2041 02:02:54.920 --> 02:02:58.239 I'm blanking on the other one Jim something. I can 2042 02:02:58.279 --> 02:03:01.359 look them up, but I got my book out. So 2043 02:03:01.600 --> 02:03:03.800 they brought it to Marty and they wanted him to direct, 2044 02:03:03.880 --> 02:03:07.640 and he couldn't direct it, but he said he would 2045 02:03:07.680 --> 02:03:11.479 stay on it and got Stephen Friers involved, who I 2046 02:03:11.479 --> 02:03:14.600 think has just finished My Beautiful Wanderette. It was an 2047 02:03:14.640 --> 02:03:17.479 early movie for him and at the time I think 2048 02:03:17.479 --> 02:03:20.000 we had a deal at Disney, which was when you 2049 02:03:20.039 --> 02:03:23.119 think of the material, Probably not a good place, but 2050 02:03:23.199 --> 02:03:26.359 we might have just optioned it because we had the deal, 2051 02:03:26.399 --> 02:03:29.640 and we might have had a discretionary fund. By that point, 2052 02:03:29.800 --> 02:03:33.159 the deals were a very lush and we had discretionary 2053 02:03:33.199 --> 02:03:36.520 money and you had overhead, and it's not so much 2054 02:03:36.600 --> 02:03:41.520 like that today. And Disney decided not to make it, 2055 02:03:42.319 --> 02:03:46.680 and so Cineplex Odeon stepped in the production part of 2056 02:03:46.720 --> 02:03:49.880 it and they raised the money again, very small budget, 2057 02:03:50.680 --> 02:03:52.680 about the same Stephen was great because he came from 2058 02:03:52.720 --> 02:03:56.880 smaller budget movies and he did a wonderful job with it. 2059 02:03:57.079 --> 02:04:00.880 Mccasting, it must have been quite a coupe to get 2060 02:04:00.880 --> 02:04:02.399 Donald Westlake to write the script. 2061 02:04:03.239 --> 02:04:06.079 I'm trying to remember how that happened. I don't know. 2062 02:04:06.159 --> 02:04:09.760 We all became very great friends after that when Dora, 2063 02:04:10.359 --> 02:04:13.600 because he was wonderful spirit, but I'm not quite sure 2064 02:04:13.640 --> 02:04:16.199 we worked together after that. Maybe Steven got him. I'm 2065 02:04:16.199 --> 02:04:18.800 not sure how we've wound up with Donald, but perfect 2066 02:04:18.840 --> 02:04:19.920 person to write it. 2067 02:04:20.479 --> 02:04:24.600 Yeah, definitely. In that cast is spectacular, especially Jelica Houston. 2068 02:04:25.319 --> 02:04:31.479 Angelica was wonderful, Annette, They're all so very young, and 2069 02:04:31.600 --> 02:04:35.000 John was very young. John Cusack was very young. I 2070 02:04:35.039 --> 02:04:37.840 remember having conversations with his I think was his manager 2071 02:04:38.680 --> 02:04:42.159 because he had value at that point. But he was 2072 02:04:42.199 --> 02:04:46.920 still very young to take on a role like that. 2073 02:04:47.800 --> 02:04:51.199 But they were all wonderful. They're all fearless, and Steven too. 2074 02:04:51.880 --> 02:04:52.119 You could. 2075 02:04:52.279 --> 02:04:54.880 I don't think you could make that movie today. I 2076 02:04:54.920 --> 02:04:57.880 think it's too dark, you know, a little gnarly. But 2077 02:04:58.319 --> 02:05:00.000 I just watched it again because I hadn't seen it 2078 02:05:00.520 --> 02:05:04.880 thirty years, and it was just I'd forgotten a lot 2079 02:05:04.880 --> 02:05:07.439 of the crazy stuff. But it was really he really did. 2080 02:05:07.520 --> 02:05:09.560 They all did. It's a great job. 2081 02:05:10.319 --> 02:05:12.479 What were some of your favorite memories of making the movie. 2082 02:05:13.319 --> 02:05:16.960 I don't know a favorite. Working with Steven and the actors. 2083 02:05:17.359 --> 02:05:20.640 I remember these long conversations we had and there were 2084 02:05:20.680 --> 02:05:22.760 a lot of rewrites, apparently because I was looking at 2085 02:05:22.760 --> 02:05:26.399 the script and it was like every color. And I 2086 02:05:26.439 --> 02:05:30.159 remember these long, complicated conversations about how to explain to 2087 02:05:30.199 --> 02:05:33.439 the audience about the odds, how she was changing the 2088 02:05:33.479 --> 02:05:37.119 odds and people get to't understand what she's doing. And 2089 02:05:37.840 --> 02:05:39.560 the more we worked on it, and the more we 2090 02:05:39.680 --> 02:05:43.039 tried to explain the worse of God, so we decided, 2091 02:05:43.359 --> 02:05:46.239 well just say it and forget it, and people will 2092 02:05:46.279 --> 02:05:50.239 get she's doing something bad and understand eventually what's going 2093 02:05:50.279 --> 02:05:53.159 on or not, but that she's doing something that's making 2094 02:05:53.199 --> 02:05:56.760 it the board change. But I remember going on and 2095 02:05:56.800 --> 02:05:59.760 on about that, and I asked, one of my fun 2096 02:05:59.800 --> 02:06:02.680 things is I asked, because it looks sort of period, 2097 02:06:02.840 --> 02:06:05.800 but it's not. And I said to Steve and I said, so, 2098 02:06:06.640 --> 02:06:09.039 what year is it? And he said it's every year, 2099 02:06:09.800 --> 02:06:14.119 which is a total career's answer. It could be any time. 2100 02:06:15.039 --> 02:06:17.960 Yeah, it doesn't really seem to age. I rewatched it 2101 02:06:17.960 --> 02:06:22.319 again recently and it feels very contemporary. Yeah, of course 2102 02:06:22.359 --> 02:06:26.680 there's the cars. Yeah, not everybody drives at twenty twenty four. 2103 02:06:27.600 --> 02:06:30.199 Let's I think in a way what he was saying. 2104 02:06:30.760 --> 02:06:34.359 If you look around you, it's everything isn't from now. 2105 02:06:35.239 --> 02:06:41.279 Everything is developed in their layers and layers of different periods. 2106 02:06:41.760 --> 02:06:44.159 How often is the producer Are you on the set? 2107 02:06:44.239 --> 02:06:46.880 Are you working like on a daily basis, or do 2108 02:06:46.920 --> 02:06:49.720 you have several projects that you're monitoring all at once. 2109 02:06:50.119 --> 02:06:52.279 It depends on the movie. I wasn't on the set 2110 02:06:52.319 --> 02:06:55.600 every day on Grifters. I was back and forth from 2111 02:06:55.640 --> 02:06:57.880 New York because they were in LA But there are 2112 02:06:57.920 --> 02:06:59.800 other movies that I am on the set all the 2113 02:06:59.840 --> 02:07:03.840 time time, but I've noticed that the longer I do this, 2114 02:07:03.960 --> 02:07:07.000 the less time. I always go to the set, but 2115 02:07:07.079 --> 02:07:09.880 don't necessarily sit there all day. Depends on the director, 2116 02:07:10.680 --> 02:07:14.399 but sometimes it's better to make an appearance as opposed 2117 02:07:14.439 --> 02:07:16.039 to just being hanging out. 2118 02:07:16.439 --> 02:07:19.119 I imagine you probably do a lot more work before 2119 02:07:19.199 --> 02:07:20.640 the cameras even start to roll. 2120 02:07:21.439 --> 02:07:24.119 Oh yeah, the movie we just finished. It's finished, but 2121 02:07:24.960 --> 02:07:28.159 the legal and the paperwork goes on and on. The 2122 02:07:28.199 --> 02:07:31.520 financing was complicated. If you're in a studio and they 2123 02:07:31.560 --> 02:07:33.279 fund you, it's easy. You do a budget, they end, 2124 02:07:33.319 --> 02:07:36.520 they send the money in a cash flow. But this 2125 02:07:36.640 --> 02:07:39.359 was with a bank loan and a completion bond and 2126 02:07:40.319 --> 02:07:43.560 an acquisition agreement. The beginning of this took longer than 2127 02:07:43.600 --> 02:07:47.039 actually shooting because we had to deal with so many 2128 02:07:47.079 --> 02:07:48.680 different entities. 2129 02:07:49.600 --> 02:07:51.880 Sounds like that was the case for the grifters too, 2130 02:07:51.880 --> 02:07:53.079 trying to get the money in line. 2131 02:07:53.199 --> 02:07:56.479 It was, but the people at Odeon were very experienced 2132 02:07:56.479 --> 02:08:00.560 at doing this, and also Cineplex Odio, and they might 2133 02:08:00.600 --> 02:08:03.600 have sold off some pieces, but from our point of view, 2134 02:08:03.640 --> 02:08:06.079 we just delivered the movie and they took over and 2135 02:08:06.119 --> 02:08:10.399 they owned it and this case that I just did. Now, 2136 02:08:11.319 --> 02:08:15.800 we didn't sell it out right. It's a fifteen year license, 2137 02:08:16.720 --> 02:08:20.159 which is a long time, but then after fifteen years 2138 02:08:20.199 --> 02:08:22.920 the rights come back. So we're trying to figure out 2139 02:08:22.920 --> 02:08:26.079 what do we do on the fifteen years, what do 2140 02:08:26.159 --> 02:08:28.600 we do with the LLC, and what do we do 2141 02:08:28.680 --> 02:08:31.680 with because I've never had that experience before. 2142 02:08:32.439 --> 02:08:34.319 How have you seen the business change over the years, 2143 02:08:34.319 --> 02:08:36.640 Because you've been doing this for a little bit now. 2144 02:08:36.880 --> 02:08:40.600 It's changed dramatically in the last I don't know, since 2145 02:08:40.800 --> 02:08:44.159 just before the pandemic. I think the pandemic sort of 2146 02:08:44.199 --> 02:08:48.960 set the streaming thing off. But in some ways I 2147 02:08:49.039 --> 02:08:52.680 miss film. I know it took a little time waiting 2148 02:08:52.840 --> 02:08:55.159 for it to come through the lab, but I don't 2149 02:08:55.159 --> 02:08:59.359 find digital any easier. In some ways it's harder. We 2150 02:08:59.399 --> 02:09:03.720 had to send print to Venice, and when it was film, 2151 02:09:03.760 --> 02:09:05.520 you just call up and say make up a print 2152 02:09:05.520 --> 02:09:08.960 and send it. And this is like digital. So we 2153 02:09:09.039 --> 02:09:11.000 had to do the digital thing, and then we had 2154 02:09:11.039 --> 02:09:14.079 to upload it and there were like three people uploading it, 2155 02:09:14.159 --> 02:09:17.119 and otherwise it was just send the print. It's really 2156 02:09:17.159 --> 02:09:20.520 hard sometimes, but I find I think there that a 2157 02:09:20.560 --> 02:09:24.159 lot of movies don't get the theatrical releases. They don't 2158 02:09:24.199 --> 02:09:27.239 all have to, but some of them this really should, 2159 02:09:28.199 --> 02:09:30.680 and I think I'm hoping that might change a little. 2160 02:09:31.560 --> 02:09:35.720 The Academy changed the rules so it's not so easy 2161 02:09:37.159 --> 02:09:40.640 to qualify now as it was. I think it was 2162 02:09:40.680 --> 02:09:44.000 just a week in the theater, and now it's different. 2163 02:09:44.039 --> 02:09:47.479 It's more complicated to actually qualify, which I may be 2164 02:09:47.800 --> 02:09:51.159 happy to see that. I think everybody was hoping that 2165 02:09:51.199 --> 02:09:54.840 would happen. I have trouble with streaming. I hear about 2166 02:09:54.880 --> 02:09:56.039 a great show and then I don't know how to 2167 02:09:56.119 --> 02:09:59.159 I kn'd find it, and then when I find it, 2168 02:09:59.520 --> 02:10:01.840 I forgot. But then I think there's going to be 2169 02:10:01.920 --> 02:10:05.720 some contraction there. Maybe there won't be so many streamers 2170 02:10:05.760 --> 02:10:09.199 and there won't also be so much material. I think 2171 02:10:09.279 --> 02:10:12.079 the sort of economics have caught up with some of them. 2172 02:10:12.800 --> 02:10:14.720 I totally agree. It feels like a bubble is about 2173 02:10:14.720 --> 02:10:15.159 to burst. 2174 02:10:15.479 --> 02:10:18.039 I hope it died. People hate it when you say that, 2175 02:10:18.119 --> 02:10:20.720 but I think, because there'll be less jobs, and there 2176 02:10:20.800 --> 02:10:24.079 might be, but there'll be better quality and they'll be less. 2177 02:10:24.920 --> 02:10:26.880 It'll just be better for everyone. I think in the 2178 02:10:26.920 --> 02:10:27.439 long run. 2179 02:10:28.159 --> 02:10:29.960 Do you mind if I ask you about your experience 2180 02:10:30.000 --> 02:10:31.079 on Goodfellas. 2181 02:10:31.279 --> 02:10:33.359 Oh no, sure, yeah, I would love. 2182 02:10:33.239 --> 02:10:35.319 To know what that was like making that, because that's 2183 02:10:35.359 --> 02:10:37.159 one of my favorite films. 2184 02:10:37.560 --> 02:10:39.880 When we made it, we had a decent budget, but 2185 02:10:39.920 --> 02:10:44.159 it wasn't huge, and the actors other than Ray unknown. 2186 02:10:44.840 --> 02:10:47.680 The studio I forget who they wanted, but they are 2187 02:10:47.680 --> 02:10:51.760 also stories about who they wanted, but they finally said 2188 02:10:51.760 --> 02:10:55.199 okay for Ray. But Ray was terrific and he wasn't 2189 02:10:55.920 --> 02:11:00.640 a known actor at the time, and Bob got it 2190 02:11:00.680 --> 02:11:07.119 made It's Warner Brothers. But it was a modestly budgeted movie. 2191 02:11:07.119 --> 02:11:10.600 We made it all in New York and it was fun. 2192 02:11:10.680 --> 02:11:15.239 The guys were everybody got along, thank god, and Paul 2193 02:11:15.279 --> 02:11:19.079 Serbino was like the master and he was breaking to 2194 02:11:19.159 --> 02:11:24.439 opera any chance he got, and everybody was having a 2195 02:11:24.479 --> 02:11:28.079 good time. It was very violent, but and yet when 2196 02:11:28.079 --> 02:11:30.239 you're making the movie, it's not violent. You see it, 2197 02:11:30.800 --> 02:11:36.000 it's not real, and so it gets sometimes it gets funny. Yeah, 2198 02:11:36.039 --> 02:11:40.000 but it was a good experience, and posts was calm. 2199 02:11:40.399 --> 02:11:44.520 Selma was there, of course, Selma schoonmaker. Most of the time. 2200 02:11:44.560 --> 02:11:47.439 I think we're in Queens And it's a story about 2201 02:11:47.479 --> 02:11:49.479 how the studio were angry I forget what they were 2202 02:11:49.479 --> 02:11:52.199 angry about. I think we were over scheduled, but not 2203 02:11:52.560 --> 02:11:56.119 much over budgets. And they said we couldn't go to 2204 02:11:56.239 --> 02:11:59.199 Florida because there was a scene in Tampa at the zoo. 2205 02:11:59.760 --> 02:12:03.239 And in fact is we never really we're going to 2206 02:12:03.319 --> 02:12:06.279 go to Florida. It was toward the end of the 2207 02:12:06.279 --> 02:12:08.680 schedule and it was a little couple of little scenes, 2208 02:12:08.720 --> 02:12:12.199 and so we just did it here in New York 2209 02:12:12.279 --> 02:12:14.800 and the zoo. I forget. Maybe it was I forget 2210 02:12:14.840 --> 02:12:17.359 which sue Brooklyn. I think it was the Brooklyn sue. 2211 02:12:17.960 --> 02:12:22.159 And they got a lot of plants from like tropical plants, 2212 02:12:22.800 --> 02:12:25.600 and there was a vacant lot and they put filled 2213 02:12:25.640 --> 02:12:28.800 it up with these tropical plants. And that was Florida 2214 02:12:29.279 --> 02:12:32.159 and it worked. It was fine. The whole point of 2215 02:12:32.199 --> 02:12:35.720 it was hanging him over the cage. It wasn't really 2216 02:12:35.760 --> 02:12:40.159 about seeing the zoo. It's just sometimes the imagination in 2217 02:12:40.199 --> 02:12:42.720 the audience is more than you need. So, you know, 2218 02:12:43.239 --> 02:12:44.600 I think we had a good time with it. 2219 02:12:45.399 --> 02:12:47.640 Yeah, that shot of the lion is what really sells 2220 02:12:47.680 --> 02:12:48.079 it for me. 2221 02:12:49.800 --> 02:12:54.039 You not need to know see the tropical but yeah, 2222 02:12:54.159 --> 02:12:57.039 I think everyone had a good experience. No one expected 2223 02:12:57.079 --> 02:13:00.279 it to do any real business. A studio was on. 2224 02:13:02.000 --> 02:13:04.239 They didn't know what to make of it, and they 2225 02:13:04.239 --> 02:13:06.239 didn't say anything bad, but they didn't say anything like 2226 02:13:06.279 --> 02:13:10.000 really good when they saw it. Finally, so we did 2227 02:13:10.000 --> 02:13:14.119 those preview screenings and they went really they really didn't 2228 02:13:14.159 --> 02:13:17.840 go well. And we did a couple and then we 2229 02:13:17.880 --> 02:13:21.479 went to in La. We went to an area just 2230 02:13:21.560 --> 02:13:24.720 outside Redundo Beach, I think it was, and we had 2231 02:13:24.720 --> 02:13:29.319 a screening there and first of the projector broke twice. 2232 02:13:29.520 --> 02:13:33.680 And finally we finished the movie and there was a 2233 02:13:33.720 --> 02:13:35.880 point in the movie that women used to walk out. 2234 02:13:36.640 --> 02:13:38.720 I think it was when Henry was really all wired up, 2235 02:13:38.800 --> 02:13:41.960 and they would just say I can't take anymore and 2236 02:13:41.960 --> 02:13:45.720 they would leave. And so that happened, and then it 2237 02:13:45.800 --> 02:13:51.720 was over and we gave out the cards and people virtual. 2238 02:13:51.800 --> 02:13:54.680 People were really riled up about the film breaking and 2239 02:13:54.760 --> 02:13:58.560 people started writing FU all over the cards. The crowd 2240 02:13:58.680 --> 02:14:02.039 was not pleased, they're happy. So we were like, this 2241 02:14:02.159 --> 02:14:05.640 is really bad, and we hit it. We went next 2242 02:14:05.640 --> 02:14:07.920 door there was a bowling alley, so we went and 2243 02:14:07.960 --> 02:14:11.439 sat in the bowling alley while they got the audience out. 2244 02:14:12.279 --> 02:14:15.199 We wouldn't know what was going to happen. There wasn't 2245 02:14:15.199 --> 02:14:18.000 any violence that I remember, but it turned out. And 2246 02:14:18.039 --> 02:14:20.560 then we were terrified, of course, and they had the 2247 02:14:20.640 --> 02:14:24.359 first screenings that invited some critics, and it's the very 2248 02:14:24.399 --> 02:14:27.399 first small group and we were waiting. We think, oh, 2249 02:14:27.439 --> 02:14:29.439 this is going to be like a blood bath, and 2250 02:14:29.479 --> 02:14:32.720 in fact they were really good. They liked it. So 2251 02:14:33.600 --> 02:14:38.399 everybody was shocked, especially the studio. But they would say 2252 02:14:38.439 --> 02:14:40.640 things like, we really got a lot for our money 2253 02:14:40.720 --> 02:14:43.479 and okay, but it worked out. 2254 02:14:44.079 --> 02:14:47.880 Yeah, speaking of money, I've always been curious. The music 2255 02:14:47.960 --> 02:14:49.840 budget must have been huge for that moment. 2256 02:14:49.960 --> 02:14:53.840 Yes, I think he broke a record, and then I 2257 02:14:53.840 --> 02:14:58.279 think he broke that record and maybe Casino, but it 2258 02:14:58.319 --> 02:15:00.920 was I think we might have hit a million. I'm 2259 02:15:00.960 --> 02:15:04.800 not sure, but it all worked. I think it helped 2260 02:15:04.800 --> 02:15:05.359 the movie a. 2261 02:15:05.319 --> 02:15:09.000 Lot, oh one hundred percent. I hear these songs now 2262 02:15:09.039 --> 02:15:10.880 and I can't help but think of Goodfellas. 2263 02:15:11.000 --> 02:15:13.479 I the Christmas song, I think it was the Rods, 2264 02:15:13.600 --> 02:15:16.600 and yeah, it was just great stuff, great fun. 2265 02:15:17.439 --> 02:15:19.560 I'll hear the end of Layla and I think of 2266 02:15:20.079 --> 02:15:22.359 the guy floating through the trash kind of thing. 2267 02:15:22.840 --> 02:15:27.319 Yeah, and Layla. They turned us down originally, and finally 2268 02:15:27.319 --> 02:15:30.920 the agreement was he could only use the instrumental part. 2269 02:15:30.920 --> 02:15:32.760 He couldn't use any of the lyric. 2270 02:15:33.600 --> 02:15:34.439 I think that works. 2271 02:15:34.640 --> 02:15:38.760 It worked right, So, yeah, it's the movie now. When 2272 02:15:38.800 --> 02:15:41.359 we did it, I think the violence was really shocking. 2273 02:15:42.319 --> 02:15:46.439 Now I think the audience has become so used to 2274 02:15:46.479 --> 02:15:48.800 the violence and stuff. It still works. It's still great. 2275 02:15:49.359 --> 02:15:51.159 Every time you turn on the TV. It's been shown 2276 02:15:51.199 --> 02:15:54.479 somewhere and it's chopped up, but it works. 2277 02:15:54.600 --> 02:15:54.840 I know. 2278 02:15:54.880 --> 02:15:58.640 It's just it still draws you in. It's interesting. It's 2279 02:15:58.640 --> 02:16:01.800 interesting how somehow a lot of it is the music 2280 02:16:02.520 --> 02:16:04.640 and maybe the memory of having seen it before. 2281 02:16:06.039 --> 02:16:09.640 Yeah, and now the violence, some of it almost seems funny, 2282 02:16:09.720 --> 02:16:13.359 especially with the stomping on Billy Batts and just seeing 2283 02:16:13.439 --> 02:16:16.800 Joe Peshi getting so into it and Robert de Niro 2284 02:16:16.880 --> 02:16:20.199 as well, just they're so excited to be kicking that guy. 2285 02:16:20.800 --> 02:16:24.600 Yeah, we always thought it was. The script originally started 2286 02:16:25.600 --> 02:16:29.720 with Little Henry, and we're worried because nobody came to 2287 02:16:29.760 --> 02:16:33.040 see Little Henry the first fifteen minutes of Little Henry 2288 02:16:33.079 --> 02:16:35.879 growing up. So we started, let's pick out something in 2289 02:16:35.879 --> 02:16:39.000 the script and bring it forward. That's really shocking and 2290 02:16:39.079 --> 02:16:41.799 really grabs your attention. So that's when we did this. 2291 02:16:41.959 --> 02:16:44.360 That But when you look at the movie, when I 2292 02:16:44.399 --> 02:16:46.959 look at it now, I think the most disturbing part 2293 02:16:47.440 --> 02:16:49.600 is not the first time he shoots him in the foot, 2294 02:16:49.639 --> 02:16:52.920 but the second time when he actually shoots him in 2295 02:16:52.920 --> 02:16:56.399 the chest and kills him. To me, that's the most shocking. 2296 02:16:56.399 --> 02:17:00.200 And that's when the movie turns because up until then 2297 02:17:00.239 --> 02:17:03.360 we're laughing. They're doing terrible things, but we're laughing, and 2298 02:17:03.360 --> 02:17:07.159 then reality sets in. So that's why the Billy batchling 2299 02:17:07.239 --> 02:17:08.239 is up front. 2300 02:17:08.639 --> 02:17:10.760 That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and when he 2301 02:17:10.840 --> 02:17:13.159 says that he comes from a whole family of rats 2302 02:17:13.159 --> 02:17:15.879 with Spider, Oh yeah, this guy's got a whole family, 2303 02:17:16.040 --> 02:17:18.520 Like they're probably counting on this guy to bring home 2304 02:17:18.719 --> 02:17:21.479 the tips from the club, and yeah, starts your mind. 2305 02:17:21.479 --> 02:17:22.680 In all these different directions. 2306 02:17:23.559 --> 02:17:28.280 It's some interesting written, very reality based. 2307 02:17:28.319 --> 02:17:31.360 I think you've done so many projects over the years. 2308 02:17:31.399 --> 02:17:32.920 What have been some of your favorites to do? 2309 02:17:33.760 --> 02:17:36.680 Actually, Grifters is one of my favorites. I liked you 2310 02:17:36.719 --> 02:17:38.559 can count on me. It was when we read the 2311 02:17:38.600 --> 02:17:42.639 scripture and this is really nice, sweet little and no 2312 02:17:42.680 --> 02:17:45.239 one had any idea that it would do so well 2313 02:17:45.559 --> 02:17:48.760 and touch so many people. Yeah, I wish Kenny would 2314 02:17:48.760 --> 02:17:52.079 direct more, but I think it's I don't know. I 2315 02:17:52.079 --> 02:17:55.319 won't speak for him, but he doesn't seem happy and 2316 02:17:55.479 --> 02:17:56.200 he's directing. 2317 02:17:57.040 --> 02:18:00.200 Yeah, I can see that. So it sounds like you're 2318 02:18:00.239 --> 02:18:03.399 still going big time with their new projects and everything. 2319 02:18:03.719 --> 02:18:05.680 I have a few things that I want to get 2320 02:18:05.760 --> 02:18:10.200 done and I'm not really taking on much more. But 2321 02:18:10.360 --> 02:18:13.159 there's one thing I shouldrive even crazy to do a 2322 02:18:13.200 --> 02:18:16.280 movie about Tommy James and the Chundells. I won't go 2323 02:18:16.280 --> 02:18:19.239 through the whole thing, but he actually, when he was 2324 02:18:19.319 --> 02:18:23.120 very young, had a hit and just the tour in 2325 02:18:23.600 --> 02:18:26.360 Manhattan and the music industry at that point they all 2326 02:18:26.680 --> 02:18:28.399 loved and said we'll call you back, and the next 2327 02:18:28.440 --> 02:18:34.360 morning all of them passed except Roulette Records. And they 2328 02:18:34.360 --> 02:18:38.639 found out later that the guy who ran Roulette, Morris Leavey, 2329 02:18:39.200 --> 02:18:42.520 was mobbed up and it was run by the Genovezi 2330 02:18:42.559 --> 02:18:46.239 family and he had told everybody to back off. So 2331 02:18:46.280 --> 02:18:49.559 Tommy's like a kid from the Midwest. He signs thrilled, 2332 02:18:49.920 --> 02:18:51.799 and then he finds out he's working for the mob 2333 02:18:52.600 --> 02:18:55.239 and so it's about all of the great music he 2334 02:18:55.280 --> 02:18:59.440 did in that period. Because Morris was very generous with 2335 02:18:59.559 --> 02:19:02.760 studio time and also creatively let him do what he wanted. 2336 02:19:03.360 --> 02:19:05.159 He gave him a lot of hit but he also 2337 02:19:05.239 --> 02:19:08.799 just kept all the money, so Tommy never got unless 2338 02:19:08.840 --> 02:19:11.239 when they were on the road that got paid. Otherwise 2339 02:19:11.280 --> 02:19:14.879 he never got paid. And so it's that's part of 2340 02:19:14.879 --> 02:19:17.280 the story anyway, And we get a little bit into 2341 02:19:17.319 --> 02:19:20.879 the de story how they actually sold the music, and 2342 02:19:21.719 --> 02:19:24.520 also there was a mob war and Tommy had to 2343 02:19:24.559 --> 02:19:26.760 go into hiding, so he decided at one point he says, 2344 02:19:26.760 --> 02:19:29.600 I got to get out of here. But his music 2345 02:19:29.760 --> 02:19:32.920 is just you hear it on TV and it's everywhere 2346 02:19:32.959 --> 02:19:37.600 and other artists have covered it all. It's just great again, 2347 02:19:37.680 --> 02:19:41.520 great energetic music that really moves things along. 2348 02:19:42.280 --> 02:19:45.360 Yeah, And to find out more about how that was created. 2349 02:19:45.440 --> 02:19:48.559 I've always been curious about that kind of weird moment 2350 02:19:48.639 --> 02:19:52.239 in Crimson and Clover where the voice is fluttering and everything. 2351 02:19:52.799 --> 02:19:54.600 That's fascinating to find out more. 2352 02:19:55.399 --> 02:19:59.200 Oh and Crystal, it's funny Crystal persuasion. People think it's 2353 02:19:59.200 --> 02:20:01.639 about drugs and stuff. He said, Actually it was about 2354 02:20:01.639 --> 02:20:06.559 the sun coming up. It's actually this glorious sun rise instead. 2355 02:20:06.600 --> 02:20:09.200 People we all think I have to breaking bad. It's 2356 02:20:09.280 --> 02:20:12.440 got to be about bloom about mass is it? But 2357 02:20:12.520 --> 02:20:15.479 you never know actually what the music is really about 2358 02:20:15.479 --> 02:20:16.280 when they wrote it. 2359 02:20:16.920 --> 02:20:19.040 Well, mster Fena, thank you so much for your time. 2360 02:20:19.079 --> 02:20:43.360 This has been great. Thank you. That's right, we're back. 2361 02:20:43.239 --> 02:20:46.639 And we're talking about the Grifters. And I do have 2362 02:20:46.680 --> 02:20:48.920 to say I know that neither of you guys had 2363 02:20:48.959 --> 02:20:51.760 a chance to watch this one, but a really good 2364 02:20:51.799 --> 02:20:55.559 double feature with the Grifters. Apart from people still lye 2365 02:20:55.600 --> 02:20:58.280 in Liverpool, people are still having sex in Liverpool. What 2366 02:20:58.399 --> 02:20:58.559 is it? 2367 02:20:58.639 --> 02:21:01.319 No, stars don't to die in Liverpool. 2368 02:21:01.399 --> 02:21:03.319 Oh okay, film stars much. 2369 02:21:03.159 --> 02:21:04.399 Blossier than that, bock. 2370 02:21:04.479 --> 02:21:08.879 Come on, okay, all right. Other than film stars don't 2371 02:21:08.959 --> 02:21:11.440 die in Liverpool, you might want to check out the 2372 02:21:11.559 --> 02:21:15.360 two thousand and four Spanish film in Cautos, which translates 2373 02:21:15.399 --> 02:21:18.440 either as suckers or swindled. I found it under the 2374 02:21:18.479 --> 02:21:24.760 title Swindled. Really well done con Men movie. There are 2375 02:21:24.879 --> 02:21:28.319 some scenes that feel very much right out of this one, 2376 02:21:28.799 --> 02:21:32.239 but it feels more like a tribute than a lift, 2377 02:21:32.479 --> 02:21:35.000 let's say. And I thought it was very well put together. 2378 02:21:35.040 --> 02:21:38.760 I think it's a really good con person film. Do 2379 02:21:38.760 --> 02:21:41.079 you guys have any favorite con films that you go 2380 02:21:41.159 --> 02:21:41.520 back to. 2381 02:21:42.360 --> 02:21:45.280 I don't think you'd go wrong with those David mammontt 2382 02:21:45.319 --> 02:21:47.920 con movies like House of Games and that Andrew Brought 2383 02:21:48.000 --> 02:21:52.200 Up a Spanish Prisoner. I think Heist counts as a 2384 02:21:52.280 --> 02:21:58.680 con film too controversial because it is a heist film. 2385 02:21:58.799 --> 02:22:02.000 There is like an armed robbery and things like that. 2386 02:22:02.319 --> 02:22:08.559 But they're running cons constantly in the movie, for up 2387 02:22:08.600 --> 02:22:12.959 against the guard at the airport, or they're just constantly 2388 02:22:13.000 --> 02:22:16.559 running little grifts, little cons as part of their haste. 2389 02:22:16.559 --> 02:22:20.440 And so I think I think those three Manmett movies. 2390 02:22:20.159 --> 02:22:25.040 Count as interesting the great films with good My guy 2391 02:22:25.159 --> 02:22:27.600 is so cool. When Cheap go to Sleep, they count him. 2392 02:22:28.280 --> 02:22:31.360 I think The Sting, which I mentioned already, is a 2393 02:22:31.399 --> 02:22:34.680 great film. I'm a big fan of Catch Me if 2394 02:22:34.680 --> 02:22:37.520 you Can Works Bielberg, the Three Film. 2395 02:22:37.559 --> 02:22:42.479 I think that's actually works really well as a con 2396 02:22:42.520 --> 02:22:44.920 man film. Are there any classic noir? 2397 02:22:45.000 --> 02:22:48.600 There must be classic noirh Convent Nightmare Rally arguably a 2398 02:22:48.639 --> 02:22:52.399 comp but that's more as a corn film, but of 2399 02:22:52.440 --> 02:22:54.239 course classic film. 2400 02:22:54.479 --> 02:22:56.879 Are there any other classic film? No, there must be 2401 02:22:56.920 --> 02:22:58.760 other film con films. 2402 02:22:59.479 --> 02:23:03.799 There might, I mean some, I don't know. How much 2403 02:23:03.840 --> 02:23:06.159 of a con you have to have to consider it 2404 02:23:06.159 --> 02:23:10.280 the con film. But it feels like you mentioned the 2405 02:23:10.319 --> 02:23:12.360 whole idea of like the twist at the end type 2406 02:23:12.360 --> 02:23:16.159 of thing, and there's so many like the Italian Job. 2407 02:23:16.280 --> 02:23:18.159 And I don't know if the original was like this, 2408 02:23:18.280 --> 02:23:21.360 but the remake definitely felt like there was a twist 2409 02:23:21.440 --> 02:23:24.000 writing them towards the end, which made it more of 2410 02:23:24.000 --> 02:23:26.799 a con film. This whole idea of and I know 2411 02:23:26.840 --> 02:23:29.280 it's more of a heist film, but the idea of 2412 02:23:29.920 --> 02:23:32.200 at the end of the heist film, you get the 2413 02:23:32.239 --> 02:23:35.600 moment where you find out that your partner has been 2414 02:23:35.680 --> 02:23:38.280 tricking you the entire time and they're about to take 2415 02:23:38.319 --> 02:23:40.879 the money. And so there's the con at the end 2416 02:23:41.440 --> 02:23:45.760 that that little pardon the expression, sting seems to be 2417 02:23:45.799 --> 02:23:48.479 coming in to a lot of the heist movies now, 2418 02:23:48.479 --> 02:23:51.200 where it's okay, the heist is done, and either you 2419 02:23:51.239 --> 02:23:53.879 get caught or you find out that your partner's ripped 2420 02:23:53.920 --> 02:23:56.200 you off and now you have to go after them. 2421 02:23:56.559 --> 02:24:02.719 It's a cliche too, that this was an independent film, 2422 02:24:02.840 --> 02:24:06.319 that this was Mirrormax putting this out rather than it 2423 02:24:06.399 --> 02:24:09.239 being a big studio thing, which was the same thing 2424 02:24:09.319 --> 02:24:14.120 for reservoir dogs. And yeah, I would be very curious 2425 02:24:14.200 --> 02:24:16.920 to look into more because I've talked a lot about 2426 02:24:17.000 --> 02:24:22.879 the Tarantino clone films, but this precedes Tarantino for me. 2427 02:24:23.000 --> 02:24:26.040 It helps open up, but then Tarantino also does help 2428 02:24:26.120 --> 02:24:29.360 open up this neo noir. And we've had neo noirs 2429 02:24:29.520 --> 02:24:33.639 forever since Noir was over, there were neo noirs, but 2430 02:24:34.120 --> 02:24:37.959 it really started to come in for me in the 2431 02:24:38.079 --> 02:24:41.879 early nineties with things like and then I'd say, is 2432 02:24:41.920 --> 02:24:44.239 this a Tarantino clone or is this a neo noir? 2433 02:24:44.360 --> 02:24:48.120 Like something like Romeo is Bleeding, which I have very 2434 02:24:48.159 --> 02:24:50.559 fond memories of. I should probably go back and rewatch 2435 02:24:50.600 --> 02:24:52.200 it just to make sure that it's as good as 2436 02:24:52.239 --> 02:24:56.079 I remember it. Just even things like Palmetto, the one 2437 02:24:56.120 --> 02:24:59.639 with Woody Harrelson, and just there were like as the 2438 02:24:59.639 --> 02:25:03.719 tarant you know, wave crashed against the shore, a lot 2439 02:25:03.760 --> 02:25:08.399 of really good neo noirs were on the Sandy beach 2440 02:25:08.639 --> 02:25:12.120 and surviving and thriving very well. So yeah, I'd be 2441 02:25:12.120 --> 02:25:14.680 curious to see where those intersections are because I know, 2442 02:25:14.799 --> 02:25:16.840 like the whole thing of the suits with the skinny 2443 02:25:16.879 --> 02:25:19.479 ties that's coming in from a better tomorrow and a 2444 02:25:19.520 --> 02:25:23.079 better Tomorrow too. John Cusack's wearing the exact same thing. 2445 02:25:23.120 --> 02:25:25.079 It looks like you could be part of the Reservoir 2446 02:25:25.120 --> 02:25:26.840 Dogs crew at the end of this movie. 2447 02:25:27.879 --> 02:25:32.840 Just because I am partial to frime movies and heist 2448 02:25:32.879 --> 02:25:36.680 movies and con movies, I can appreciate and enjoy a 2449 02:25:36.719 --> 02:25:40.159 lot of them, the not great offerings that came out 2450 02:25:40.200 --> 02:25:44.959 of that time that I know, people who have fire 2451 02:25:45.079 --> 02:25:49.479 taste like yourselves can turn your noses up faster than 2452 02:25:49.520 --> 02:25:49.760 I do. 2453 02:25:50.639 --> 02:25:53.799 Hey, it's fine. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot 2454 02:25:53.799 --> 02:25:57.040 of those movies you're talking about star John Cusack, because 2455 02:25:57.079 --> 02:26:01.680 he's gotten into almost a Nicholas h type rut of 2456 02:26:01.840 --> 02:26:05.040 making a lot of movies. But I think every once 2457 02:26:05.040 --> 02:26:07.159 in a while he actually hit some of those out 2458 02:26:07.159 --> 02:26:07.639 of the park. 2459 02:26:08.520 --> 02:26:10.959 Yeah. I don't know about his kind of director red 2460 02:26:10.959 --> 02:26:16.079 box and streaming phase crime movies. I watched a lot 2461 02:26:16.120 --> 02:26:21.520 of John Cusack movies this year and was pleasantly surprised 2462 02:26:21.559 --> 02:26:25.840 that he continues to make every few years, has got 2463 02:26:25.840 --> 02:26:28.159 another one that I go, Wow, that was really good. 2464 02:26:28.239 --> 02:26:28.440 Yeah. 2465 02:26:28.440 --> 02:26:34.079 I loved him in Shiraq, the Spike Lee movie, and 2466 02:26:34.840 --> 02:26:38.040 I know there's been something. Oh the Kronerberg film Maps 2467 02:26:38.040 --> 02:26:38.639 to the Stars. 2468 02:26:38.680 --> 02:26:40.000 I thought he was great, right. 2469 02:26:40.879 --> 02:26:43.440 I know you go a long way too for Cornee. 2470 02:26:44.280 --> 02:26:46.680 Oh hell, yes, I love that area. 2471 02:26:46.799 --> 02:26:49.319 I would fight anyone who does not like that movie. 2472 02:26:49.479 --> 02:26:50.479 It's so good. 2473 02:26:51.440 --> 02:26:54.639 I can. Yeah, I will say I did not like 2474 02:26:54.760 --> 02:26:57.239 kan Air when it came out. I was pretty disappointed 2475 02:26:57.239 --> 02:26:59.920 by it when it came out. The fifteenth ray wall 2476 02:27:00.159 --> 02:27:03.399 that you started to sink quickly, And that's where I 2477 02:27:03.559 --> 02:27:06.159 keep rewatching them because it's like going back to the 2478 02:27:06.200 --> 02:27:08.920 fridge every five minutes. My way, what are you doing? 2479 02:27:09.120 --> 02:27:11.879 It hasn't changed. It's like, but I have my standards 2480 02:27:11.879 --> 02:27:15.520 have lowered, and now I have and eventually I will 2481 02:27:15.559 --> 02:27:16.319 really enjoy it. 2482 02:27:18.040 --> 02:27:20.639 Pretty soon I'll be eating that American cheese and think 2483 02:27:20.680 --> 02:27:21.520 that is the best. 2484 02:27:21.719 --> 02:27:22.000 It is. 2485 02:27:22.120 --> 02:27:25.239 Actually what a lot of filmmaking these days really just 2486 02:27:25.319 --> 02:27:30.600 American cheese. There's reduced standards. Keep coming back and get that. Yes, 2487 02:27:30.639 --> 02:27:32.159 those predative films will get better. 2488 02:27:32.719 --> 02:27:33.000 P s. 2489 02:27:33.079 --> 02:27:35.840 If I watch every single Resident Evil film, I'll start 2490 02:27:35.879 --> 02:27:36.719 liking them. 2491 02:27:37.120 --> 02:27:39.520 There are a couple that are somewhat decent. 2492 02:27:40.040 --> 02:27:40.280 Yeah. 2493 02:27:40.319 --> 02:27:43.600 The Ocean's eleven films, The Oceans thirteen, The Oceans whatever 2494 02:27:44.040 --> 02:27:46.719 I checked don't mind those films. I quite then already 2495 02:27:46.840 --> 02:27:50.479 con caper films. And I still think that scene in 2496 02:27:50.559 --> 02:27:52.879 what is the Second Ocean? Is it Oceans twelve with 2497 02:27:52.959 --> 02:27:54.399 Julia Robertson. 2498 02:27:54.120 --> 02:28:00.280 Oh playing herself and they're playing herself as she umps 2499 02:28:00.360 --> 02:28:03.040 into Bruce Willis. 2500 02:28:03.040 --> 02:28:04.879 I still think that's funny. 2501 02:28:04.879 --> 02:28:06.760 It's in a film. 2502 02:28:06.879 --> 02:28:08.719 I just love that film, Like I watched that scene 2503 02:28:08.760 --> 02:28:11.040 forever and I have on YouTube. 2504 02:28:11.639 --> 02:28:13.879 Wow, I am so the opposite of that. 2505 02:28:13.920 --> 02:28:16.920 I love. Then the old guy who's the old con 2506 02:28:16.959 --> 02:28:21.280 man comes it, puts that phone down, don't you know's it? 2507 02:28:21.479 --> 02:28:24.479 Phone waves? Damn into the ute us. There wasn't a 2508 02:28:24.520 --> 02:28:28.200 bad Carl Rainer impersonation of a German. That's true. 2509 02:28:29.399 --> 02:28:33.159 Really talk about freez, Come on, this guy's got a 2510 02:28:33.200 --> 02:28:38.239 really strange but from where I'd see it, spotty up 2511 02:28:38.280 --> 02:28:43.360 and down filmography and a guy that has just made films, 2512 02:28:44.120 --> 02:28:46.159 and this is a good, a positive thing, has made 2513 02:28:46.200 --> 02:28:50.040 lots of different kinds of good films. This film is 2514 02:28:50.120 --> 02:28:55.159 very different to Dangerously aisons to high fidelity to this 2515 02:28:55.360 --> 02:28:56.959 film isn't. 2516 02:28:56.799 --> 02:29:00.280 That different from Dangerously Asons? The whole idea of the 2517 02:29:00.680 --> 02:29:05.680 Frio of people fucking each other over, ruining each other 2518 02:29:06.360 --> 02:29:09.799 in society. It feels very grifty to me. 2519 02:29:10.239 --> 02:29:13.079 Well high fidelity, which I know you don't like. But 2520 02:29:13.120 --> 02:29:17.239 also the film that really got Stephen Freers, Oh, I 2521 02:29:17.280 --> 02:29:19.360 didn't get me out. I didn't get Stephen Frees on 2522 02:29:19.399 --> 02:29:21.760 my radar because I didn't really think about who made it. 2523 02:29:21.799 --> 02:29:25.719 But the first Threeers film I saw was nineteen eighty five. 2524 02:29:25.840 --> 02:29:29.159 My Beautiful Word Drets, which was hugely influential, was my 2525 02:29:29.239 --> 02:29:32.399 second year of university, is hugely influential in that sort 2526 02:29:32.399 --> 02:29:36.120 of the menu I was in at university because it 2527 02:29:36.200 --> 02:29:39.479 was certainly one of the first films I can remember 2528 02:29:39.520 --> 02:29:44.120 seeing that was a consciously overtly gay film, had a 2529 02:29:44.239 --> 02:29:47.200 gay romance in it, and the gay romance was between 2530 02:29:47.200 --> 02:29:51.360 a working class Anglo British guy and a sort of 2531 02:29:51.920 --> 02:29:57.280 up and coming aspirational, entrepreneurial Indian child of the British 2532 02:29:57.319 --> 02:30:01.159 Indian parents. It did come from India to and I 2533 02:30:01.159 --> 02:30:03.000 thought that was a Marvels film. I really watched that 2534 02:30:03.079 --> 02:30:05.959 recently and I just think it's still quite a masterbl film, 2535 02:30:05.959 --> 02:30:08.479 but at the very and then prick up areas, which 2536 02:30:08.520 --> 02:30:11.760 is this weird kind of film without John Orton, the 2537 02:30:11.760 --> 02:30:15.159 British writer, so he's made lots of different. 2538 02:30:14.799 --> 02:30:15.639 Types of films. 2539 02:30:15.639 --> 02:30:18.000 I think I'll stand by that statement, and I will 2540 02:30:18.040 --> 02:30:18.840 die on that hill. 2541 02:30:20.040 --> 02:30:22.360 I don't think anybody would fight you about He's made 2542 02:30:22.399 --> 02:30:24.520 all kinds of different films for sure. 2543 02:30:24.920 --> 02:30:25.120 Yeah. 2544 02:30:25.200 --> 02:30:28.799 Yeah. I think about things like The Hit and Gum Shoe, 2545 02:30:29.000 --> 02:30:31.000 and I don't know how big Gumshoe is. I think 2546 02:30:31.000 --> 02:30:33.319 I just happened to own that on VHS for a while, 2547 02:30:33.360 --> 02:30:35.719 so I thought it was a big movie. I even 2548 02:30:35.879 --> 02:30:40.479 like stuff like Pricapriers, which was one of the first 2549 02:30:40.520 --> 02:30:43.079 times I saw Gary Oldman, and it was the first 2550 02:30:43.079 --> 02:30:48.040 time I realized how versatile Alfred Molito is, because I 2551 02:30:48.120 --> 02:30:51.399 really I remember he was making a lot of stuff 2552 02:30:51.399 --> 02:30:53.000 at one point and I was just like, oh, yeah, 2553 02:30:53.040 --> 02:30:55.840 this alpham Miliana guy's pretty good. And then I see him. 2554 02:30:56.440 --> 02:30:59.520 It's just he's looked like a giant in that movie 2555 02:30:59.559 --> 02:31:02.520 and was completely bald. And then, for whatever reason, it 2556 02:31:02.600 --> 02:31:04.840 was around that same time that I learned that he 2557 02:31:05.000 --> 02:31:07.520 was in Raiders of the Lost arc too, as a 2558 02:31:07.959 --> 02:31:12.000 what I thought was a smaller Latin American gentleman. I'm 2559 02:31:12.040 --> 02:31:14.120 just like, how does this work? How does this tall, 2560 02:31:14.159 --> 02:31:17.600 bald British guy become this little Latin American job. Hey, 2561 02:31:17.719 --> 02:31:21.959 this is wild, and I was like, Okay, Molina's got 2562 02:31:21.959 --> 02:31:25.600 the goods. And I remember really enjoying that film as well. 2563 02:31:26.360 --> 02:31:30.959 But yeah, he's so eclectic. And there's that documentary from 2564 02:31:30.959 --> 02:31:33.639 the BBC director for Hire. I think it might be 2565 02:31:33.719 --> 02:31:38.719 called because he is all over the map and but 2566 02:31:39.079 --> 02:31:43.239 yet he can really hit some of these incredible highs. 2567 02:31:43.280 --> 02:31:46.559 I think the last thing I saw of his theatrically 2568 02:31:47.040 --> 02:31:48.959 on way back in two thousand and two with Dirty 2569 02:31:48.959 --> 02:31:51.479 Pretty Things. It might have been the first time I 2570 02:31:51.479 --> 02:31:55.760 ever saw chew Hotel Edgia four and wow again talk 2571 02:31:55.799 --> 02:31:59.520 had the performances and who's the woman in that? Was 2572 02:31:59.559 --> 02:32:03.680 that Juliet Binoche Audrey Tattoo, oh ad Tattoo. Yeah, that 2573 02:32:03.719 --> 02:32:08.319 was right after Amlay. That's right that it's an amazing film. 2574 02:32:09.079 --> 02:32:12.200 I really love that one, and I do it's funny. 2575 02:32:12.280 --> 02:32:14.920 The first time I saw it, I thought it was 2576 02:32:15.120 --> 02:32:19.239 very Jim Thompson. The whole setting, the underworld at the 2577 02:32:19.239 --> 02:32:24.280 hotel reminded me of Thompson and the hit The Grifters. 2578 02:32:24.360 --> 02:32:28.840 Dirty Pretty Things are my favorites of his filmography, his 2579 02:32:28.920 --> 02:32:34.200 best crime films. I just watched a very British Scandal, 2580 02:32:34.799 --> 02:32:41.760 the mini series with Hugh Grant and I Forget Then 2581 02:32:41.840 --> 02:32:46.040 We Shaw. That was pretty funny. Another story of a 2582 02:32:46.040 --> 02:32:53.000 homosexual relationship in two different classes in Britain. That was 2583 02:32:53.040 --> 02:32:55.879 pretty good. Bike. He brought up the Gun for Hire 2584 02:32:57.000 --> 02:33:01.840 documentary and in it he is pretty so of deprecating 2585 02:33:02.319 --> 02:33:06.639 talking about his approach that he just takes on jobs. 2586 02:33:07.399 --> 02:33:10.399 But I do think that there's a real through line 2587 02:33:10.639 --> 02:33:13.760 to a lot of who he is or what he's 2588 02:33:13.799 --> 02:33:18.559 interests in. So many of his films are about women 2589 02:33:19.040 --> 02:33:24.760 and their place in the world, even something like The Queen, 2590 02:33:24.879 --> 02:33:28.680 where it's hard to feel sorry for one of the 2591 02:33:28.680 --> 02:33:34.319 most rich, powerful people in the world, presented very much 2592 02:33:35.600 --> 02:33:39.600 how she deals with life, the expectations both of a 2593 02:33:39.639 --> 02:33:45.559 monarch and of a woman, contrasts that to Philomena or 2594 02:33:46.399 --> 02:33:51.280 pretty things and dangerous liaisons too. There's a whole lot 2595 02:33:51.399 --> 02:33:53.959 of good stuff. Of his more recent ones called The 2596 02:33:54.040 --> 02:33:59.239 Lost King Stirring for Sally Hawkins was good. It was 2597 02:33:59.280 --> 02:34:01.760 a true Story's done a lot of true stories recently 2598 02:34:01.840 --> 02:34:06.120 about recent history. I think that was the one I 2599 02:34:06.159 --> 02:34:08.319 watched that I said, Oh, he's really got this thing 2600 02:34:08.360 --> 02:34:15.760 about women being very underestimated and pushed down but pressing 2601 02:34:15.799 --> 02:34:18.680 on and certainly ties into the Grifters if you think 2602 02:34:18.680 --> 02:34:23.680 of it as Lily's story, how she's very much under 2603 02:34:23.680 --> 02:34:29.479 the sum of Bobo and bides her time and plays 2604 02:34:29.479 --> 02:34:33.040 her part until it's time to make a move. And 2605 02:34:34.000 --> 02:34:37.239 I do think that's a through line in his work. 2606 02:34:38.000 --> 02:34:40.639 She'll never be able to get out. You know, this 2607 02:34:40.719 --> 02:34:44.760 whole thing with Moira is a blessing for her, that 2608 02:34:44.879 --> 02:34:48.200 she suddenly can have a new life, and that she 2609 02:34:48.319 --> 02:34:52.360 can pin everything on Moira, even when she kills Roy. 2610 02:34:52.840 --> 02:34:57.239 Henry Jones is like, oh, hello missus Langtree. No, that's 2611 02:34:57.280 --> 02:34:57.639 not her. 2612 02:34:58.120 --> 02:35:01.959 Yeah, So everything goes back and even leaves her car 2613 02:35:02.440 --> 02:35:03.479 Weiver's car there. 2614 02:35:04.360 --> 02:35:06.200 I do wander to what you say, Jed to whether 2615 02:35:06.920 --> 02:35:09.120 don't tend to be a lot of I'm not saying 2616 02:35:09.159 --> 02:35:12.399 it's a good or a bad thing. I'm just speculating now. 2617 02:35:12.920 --> 02:35:15.200 It just seems to me the directors do a certain 2618 02:35:15.239 --> 02:35:17.520 stick of film, like they do horror, or they do 2619 02:35:18.239 --> 02:35:23.000 films about deck and sex workers, or they do certain. 2620 02:35:22.760 --> 02:35:26.000 Things, whereas the prize is one of those directors. 2621 02:35:26.040 --> 02:35:28.680 As you say, job Gunfy could turn his attention to anything, 2622 02:35:28.719 --> 02:35:31.120 which is something that we don't seem to see as 2623 02:35:31.200 --> 02:35:32.120 much as we used. 2624 02:35:31.920 --> 02:35:36.280 To know that we celebrated so much. I just think 2625 02:35:36.639 --> 02:35:40.959 I think that the people who specialize in a genre 2626 02:35:41.079 --> 02:35:45.840 tend to make bigger names because yeah, maybe more visible. 2627 02:35:46.360 --> 02:35:49.159 I think that people who you know, like a Frears 2628 02:35:49.239 --> 02:35:53.760 or an Alan Parker or a somebody who keeps doing 2629 02:35:53.840 --> 02:35:58.280 work in multiple genres and multiple things, is we don't 2630 02:35:58.360 --> 02:36:00.760 think of them like, well, it's the same who made 2631 02:36:00.760 --> 02:36:02.479 this one, it's the same go who made this one, 2632 02:36:02.520 --> 02:36:04.360 because they are different enough. 2633 02:36:05.120 --> 02:36:08.319 That's the other thing that I found really interesting about 2634 02:36:08.319 --> 02:36:12.000 that lengthy documentary you sent us. The gun for hire 2635 02:36:12.120 --> 02:36:15.600 or director for higher Freez has really got no idea 2636 02:36:15.600 --> 02:36:17.200 about this film when he starts making it. 2637 02:36:17.280 --> 02:36:19.479 He's got a copy of The Griffins that hasn't read it. 2638 02:36:20.319 --> 02:36:25.799 He really doesn't have any great big ill or he's 2639 02:36:25.840 --> 02:36:30.040 not a lot lot freaks, but Noir or Thompson like 2640 02:36:30.079 --> 02:36:33.040 we are, or that kind of crime films. He's and 2641 02:36:33.079 --> 02:36:36.920 he's he talks about the fact that all these people 2642 02:36:36.920 --> 02:36:39.920 come and talk all these people, Tim Robbins and Sissy 2643 02:36:40.000 --> 02:36:41.639 space It, they all come and talk to me about 2644 02:36:41.639 --> 02:36:43.120 the film, and they want to be in the film 2645 02:36:43.159 --> 02:36:44.799 and I'm considering them, and he's not really actually got 2646 02:36:44.879 --> 02:36:48.319 no idea what he's doing it first, and it takes 2647 02:36:48.399 --> 02:36:50.440 him a while till he starts to cast people. 2648 02:36:50.479 --> 02:36:51.600 He gets Kuzak first. 2649 02:36:51.639 --> 02:36:54.399 I think he gets Houston second, or ever it goes, 2650 02:36:54.440 --> 02:36:56.360 and then they do Benning and I'm probably fill out 2651 02:36:56.399 --> 02:36:57.920 all the other bits. But it takes a while for 2652 02:36:58.000 --> 02:36:59.600 him to get into it, which I found quite quite 2653 02:36:59.639 --> 02:37:04.479 an interesting perception, because interesting revelation, because I suppose the 2654 02:37:04.520 --> 02:37:07.239 perception is that we would You'd think I'd be so 2655 02:37:07.399 --> 02:37:09.040 into it and love the book, he'd want to do 2656 02:37:09.120 --> 02:37:09.799 this film. 2657 02:37:09.920 --> 02:37:12.479 Yeah, it's great, you know, right into it from the 2658 02:37:12.520 --> 02:37:12.799 get go. 2659 02:37:12.879 --> 02:37:14.799 But no, we'll actually got no idea at first, and 2660 02:37:14.799 --> 02:37:17.399 I have to feel my way into how I make 2661 02:37:17.479 --> 02:37:20.040 this film and what the look of the film is, 2662 02:37:20.120 --> 02:37:24.120 and how we incorporate the nineties, a nineteen ninety aesthetic 2663 02:37:24.159 --> 02:37:28.440 with a nineteen fifteen film noir aesthetic at all. 2664 02:37:28.479 --> 02:37:32.719 That I guess the older filmmakers feel to me to 2665 02:37:32.760 --> 02:37:35.559 be the ones that will move around in genres, and 2666 02:37:35.600 --> 02:37:40.239 even some of the classics like Martin Scorsese's Steven Spielberg. 2667 02:37:40.360 --> 02:37:43.360 If you look at these guys and it's Martin Scorsese. 2668 02:37:43.399 --> 02:37:45.760 Everybody's oh, he makes all these gangster films. It's like 2669 02:37:45.760 --> 02:37:48.479 what I think he made, like three or four. But 2670 02:37:48.520 --> 02:37:52.479 it's not like his whole uvra Age of Innocence and 2671 02:37:52.600 --> 02:37:55.840 The Aviator, all of these different films that he can make. 2672 02:37:56.799 --> 02:38:00.000 But he's Martin Scorsese's one guy who's doing all these things. 2673 02:38:00.280 --> 02:38:02.920 He's one of those let's go see the new Scorsese film. 2674 02:38:03.239 --> 02:38:04.760 I don't know how many people are saying, let's go 2675 02:38:04.799 --> 02:38:07.719 see the new Frears film. But to your point, you 2676 02:38:07.799 --> 02:38:10.959 don't necessarily realize, oh, it's the same guy that did 2677 02:38:10.959 --> 02:38:14.360 this one as well. I appreciate that kind of journeyman 2678 02:38:15.200 --> 02:38:18.840 approached the things. Even some of the biggest names of 2679 02:38:18.920 --> 02:38:22.319 all times, like Kubrick. Every single movie is a different genre. 2680 02:38:22.440 --> 02:38:25.760 It's not like he's making, Yeah, there's a couple of 2681 02:38:25.760 --> 02:38:28.079 science fiction films in there. I guess you could say 2682 02:38:28.200 --> 02:38:32.520 that Clockworkcorns's science fiction, and AI was his idea. But 2683 02:38:32.559 --> 02:38:34.760 it's just like to make the war film, to make 2684 02:38:34.799 --> 02:38:38.479 the heist film, to make the horror film. He was 2685 02:38:38.680 --> 02:38:41.399 hopping genres all over the place. He wanted to be perfect, 2686 02:38:41.719 --> 02:38:46.360 said every single genre. Maybe that was one of his motivators. 2687 02:38:45.760 --> 02:38:47.799 And it gets them all much an anonymity, I think 2688 02:38:47.840 --> 02:38:53.040 because I was constantly the director, I always confuse Priyas 2689 02:38:53.079 --> 02:38:56.639 with his Mike Figus. There's another British director who's jumped 2690 02:38:56.680 --> 02:38:59.440 around a bit in terms of genre. And there was 2691 02:38:59.479 --> 02:39:05.760 another director that you talked about earlier, Neil, Yeah, that 2692 02:39:05.879 --> 02:39:08.079 you mentioned. I think Jed you mentioned one too that 2693 02:39:08.120 --> 02:39:09.639 you got on perker Me. 2694 02:39:10.760 --> 02:39:11.879 I can't remember who it was. 2695 02:39:11.840 --> 02:39:16.840 But yeah, anyway, these guys they're not big nice, They're 2696 02:39:16.879 --> 02:39:19.000 just they're out, they're behind the scenes, and you when 2697 02:39:19.040 --> 02:39:20.879 you dig down into one of their films, obviously you 2698 02:39:20.959 --> 02:39:24.840 start to associate the thematic similarities maybe between some of 2699 02:39:24.879 --> 02:39:28.719 their work. But they remained behind the camera, don't they. 2700 02:39:29.000 --> 02:39:32.639 Even with our last conversation, Jedi mentioned Peter Hyams because 2701 02:39:32.680 --> 02:39:35.840 I brought up Narrow Margin and some of these neo 2702 02:39:35.959 --> 02:39:39.040 noirs and noir remakes that were happening around this time. 2703 02:39:39.719 --> 02:39:43.120 And yeah, Hyams is another guy. I like Hyams. I 2704 02:39:43.559 --> 02:39:45.719 follow his career, But I think a lot of people 2705 02:39:45.719 --> 02:39:49.159 wouldn't realize that the same guy who did The Relica 2706 02:39:49.440 --> 02:39:53.920 did Running Scared. It was just like very different films 2707 02:39:54.000 --> 02:39:57.399 and wide expands in so many years he's had. He 2708 02:39:57.479 --> 02:40:00.440 had a career that spanned so many decades ago, making 2709 02:40:00.840 --> 02:40:04.399 science fiction classics like Outland all the way up to 2710 02:40:05.200 --> 02:40:08.360 that absolute science fiction shit of Sound of Thunder. But 2711 02:40:09.040 --> 02:40:11.719 he was working for a long damn time. It did 2712 02:40:11.760 --> 02:40:16.280 a lot of different movies, Time Top, Time Cop. There 2713 02:40:16.319 --> 02:40:22.360 you go, fucking classic cap Cornwill bought good stuff. 2714 02:40:23.120 --> 02:40:25.159 I've come around on Time Cop. By the way you 2715 02:40:25.239 --> 02:40:29.399 and I brought up when we did our Outland episode, 2716 02:40:29.680 --> 02:40:32.920 I've come around Time Cops another one. I hated it 2717 02:40:32.959 --> 02:40:35.680 when it came out, but I've become I still don't 2718 02:40:35.719 --> 02:40:40.520 think it's great in its treatment of time travel, which 2719 02:40:40.559 --> 02:40:42.680 is what really hung me up the first time I 2720 02:40:42.719 --> 02:40:43.000 saw it. 2721 02:40:43.000 --> 02:40:48.319 But you wanted a realistic depiction of Tom Cable. Yeah right, yeah, 2722 02:40:48.360 --> 02:40:51.479 but no, it's a It is a film, Lane Joy. 2723 02:40:51.559 --> 02:40:55.280 Now I'm doing a John claud Van damn podcast soon 2724 02:40:55.360 --> 02:40:59.040 and oh nice. 2725 02:40:57.000 --> 02:40:57.079 So. 2726 02:41:00.000 --> 02:41:01.639 Bring your podcast fives around. 2727 02:41:02.040 --> 02:41:05.280 Yeah, he's spreading his seed. 2728 02:41:05.399 --> 02:41:10.079 Shaking his selling his little toush. 2729 02:41:09.600 --> 02:41:11.879 See you could plug that at the end of this 2730 02:41:12.000 --> 02:41:16.360 episode if you want so. Feel free. Okay, all right, 2731 02:41:18.600 --> 02:41:20.440 all right, guys, let's go ahead and take another break 2732 02:41:20.479 --> 02:41:23.120 and play a preview for next week's show. Right after 2733 02:41:23.159 --> 02:41:26.040 these brief messages. 2734 02:41:26.840 --> 02:41:30.959 If you guess Madam that commission again Smith ven photos invention, 2735 02:41:31.520 --> 02:41:40.280 skip the new poofs photograph and he's. 2736 02:41:36.719 --> 02:41:39.879 Only mine man hun los exact. This is stilly cut 2737 02:41:40.600 --> 02:41:43.399 tring michletter do lit to a boom stand a phoning 2738 02:41:43.440 --> 02:41:47.680 in mine bit desen for a gang in father fist 2739 02:41:47.760 --> 02:41:53.799 ahead and happens in downtown. Yeah, it's little. 2740 02:41:58.559 --> 02:41:59.360 In your hand. 2741 02:41:59.799 --> 02:42:14.280 If it hit me, Bas acting for you and the 2742 02:42:14.319 --> 02:42:19.879 ships see you globt man, your absolutely discretion. 2743 02:42:21.040 --> 02:42:22.399 Best man and. 2744 02:42:25.040 --> 02:42:32.959 Bas shtoya hint bugle fighting. It has tivy Ramos fightsak. 2745 02:42:37.680 --> 02:42:42.120 Tifi Ramos. That's right. We're back next month with another 2746 02:42:42.280 --> 02:42:47.799 bunch of Patreon requests, including Downtown from Jess Franco. Until then, 2747 02:42:47.840 --> 02:42:50.600 I want to thank my co host Jededian Andrew. So, Andrew, 2748 02:42:50.639 --> 02:42:51.920 what is the latest with you, sir? 2749 02:42:52.959 --> 02:42:57.319 I have a new book out with Sam Deagan, who 2750 02:42:57.479 --> 02:43:02.399 is another Projection Boost co host regular and it's called 2751 02:43:02.440 --> 02:43:06.159 Revolution in thirty five millimeter Political violence and Resistance in 2752 02:43:06.239 --> 02:43:10.120 Cinema from the Art House to the Grindhouse nineteen fifty 2753 02:43:10.159 --> 02:43:13.520 to nineteen ninety. It's out through PM Press. It's in 2754 02:43:13.680 --> 02:43:18.479 all good bookstores, and Beachure is a host of great writing. 2755 02:43:18.200 --> 02:43:21.479 On cinema, including an essay by your good self, Mike, 2756 02:43:22.440 --> 02:43:25.079 I'm in there, You're in there, You're in the shit. 2757 02:43:25.120 --> 02:43:26.360 I made the cut, all right. 2758 02:43:26.319 --> 02:43:29.239 I made the cut. That's what's happening. 2759 02:43:30.000 --> 02:43:32.399 And Jedediah, how about yourself. 2760 02:43:33.360 --> 02:43:36.680 I'm just thread around watching movies so I can be 2761 02:43:36.760 --> 02:43:40.319 on podcasts like this and by the time this one 2762 02:43:40.399 --> 02:43:45.799 comes out. Probably my latest episode on the Watch with 2763 02:43:46.040 --> 02:43:50.680 Gen podcast, focusing on the career of Jean Claude van 2764 02:43:50.760 --> 02:43:55.120 Demm with co hosts Jordan Harper and Priscilla Page, should 2765 02:43:55.120 --> 02:43:58.840 be out. Jen jo Hans podcast Watch with Jen. I'm 2766 02:43:58.879 --> 02:44:01.719 on there sometimes. Sorry, Mike, I'm not only on the 2767 02:44:01.799 --> 02:44:04.520 projection poost. Follow me on Twitter and I'll let you 2768 02:44:04.639 --> 02:44:05.840 know when that's out. 2769 02:44:06.600 --> 02:44:08.280 Thank you so much guys for being on the show. 2770 02:44:08.319 --> 02:44:10.040 Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear 2771 02:44:10.079 --> 02:44:11.639 more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some 2772 02:44:11.680 --> 02:44:13.159 of the other shows that I work on. They are 2773 02:44:13.200 --> 02:44:16.760 all available at Weirdingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially to our 2774 02:44:16.799 --> 02:44:19.399 Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit 2775 02:44:19.479 --> 02:44:22.920 patreon dot com. Slash Projection Booth. Every donation we get 2776 02:44:23.000 --> 02:44:25.360 helps the Projection Booth take over the world.