WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.039 You're listening to Redefining Energy. 2 00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:12.439 Your co hosts from. 3 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:17.480 Berlin Gerard Reed and from London Laurent Segala. Today on 4 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:21.839 Redefining Energy, we're going to talk about mobile batteries. 5 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:26.120 And mobile batteries are energy storage system between one kido 6 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:29.120 what and one mega what? Do you have it on 7 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:33.520 traders or in ten food container? And the reason it's 8 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:36.200 ten food container it's a question of weight. Ten food 9 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:39.079 container is going to weigh about ten to twelve tons 10 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:42.039 and if it's above twenty twn it becomes a very 11 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:43.000 conversone to move. 12 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.719 And if I understand what you're doing is you're using 13 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:48.960 these really insane of diesel gen sets, so construction sites, 14 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:52.079 film sites, and you're also increasingly beginning to used as 15 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:54.799 part of the grid. Yeah, and asten because we want 16 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:56.640 to learn a little bit more about this area. We've 17 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:58.960 done is we've got a great guy on Peter Paul 18 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:02.560 van Vorst was the SEAO of the mobile battery management 19 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:03.799 platform called School. 20 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:08.280 I've known Peter pol for now four years and he 21 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:12.599 leads a remarkable team. So they're based in Rotterdam and 22 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:17.319 they've been starting to manage those batteries seven years ago 23 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:19.879 and now I think they've got more than a thousand 24 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:24.359 batteries and under management. So we'll explain what under management 25 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:28.519 means a lot of knowledge in hardware, but also the 26 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:32.200 fantastic development in the software a year and esson just. 27 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:36.719 From my side, apologies that I actually was during the interview. 28 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:40.359 My internet connection died. I was actually on an Irish 29 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:42.319 ferry from France to Dublin. 30 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:47.879 Yeah, so I conducted the interview alone, but send you 31 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:49.920 the tape so you know what we talked about. 32 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:53.319 For once, let's bring Peter Paul on. 33 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:55.439 Peter pol welcome to the show. 34 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:56.640 Thank you very much. 35 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.319 Jad is on a boat somewhere in the Irish see 36 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:05.640 carrying his precious cargo of Irish whiskey, so he might 37 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:09.400 join or not. I don't really know. So we're going 38 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:12.479 to start by a very simple question. Can you explain 39 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:15.080 to our listeners what you put in the concept of 40 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:18.159 mobile batteries or what's the smallest, what's the biggest? 41 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:22.319 Yeah, definitely. So mobile batteries, or mobile energy systems as 42 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:26.560 we call them, are systems between roughly one kilowatt and 43 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:30.639 one megawat that are all used to have energy storage 44 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:34.319 and energy generation. If it's for example, cleaner generators for 45 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:38.960 temporary applications. And then you can think of construction sites, 46 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:43.199 film sets, factories that want to get a new machine 47 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:45.759 in but have to wait for a great connection. So 48 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.039 everything with a temporary nature where you don't want to 49 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.680 wait for the stationary infrastructure, and definitely where you don't 50 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:55.319 want to use a diesel generator. 51 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:59.639 I guess the type of chemistry service is very similar 52 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.360 from what we have in Let's says a stationary storage pretty. 53 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.479 Much definitely, and I would say even probably a bigger 54 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:10.319 share of LFP batteries than in stationery search or mobility 55 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.919 because volume or density is not such a big issue. 56 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:19.000 These are mostly ten food containers or the smaller ones 57 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:21.120 are trailers that you can toby in the car, and 58 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:24.639 density is not the biggest issue. So we especially look 59 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:28.719 for safe and reliable systems that are plug and play 60 00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:30.680 and you can deploy wherever you bring them. 61 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:34.039 The suppliers, I guess, are pretty much a list of 62 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:38.000 people which we know or do they have specialty suppliers. 63 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.120 There are definitely different types of suppliers, but what they 64 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:45.280 all have in common is their business model is buying 65 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:48.719 these systems from manufacturers and then keeping them on their 66 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:53.000 balance sheet to rent out to other companies, and through 67 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:57.599 Scones online marketplace, we facilitate the rental process and we 68 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.680 also give these suppliers a lot of soft for tools 69 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:02.680 so that all of the data is in one place 70 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:05.479 and they can use AI to save all up of 71 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:07.400 time and to also make a lot more money. 72 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:11.080 When we took about the use of mobile batteries, I 73 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:14.199 like to dig a bit more into detail because on 74 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.000 one hand, you would have the basic power bank, I 75 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.000 would say, so basically you're going to just charge and discharge, 76 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:23.160 So I don't know why you charge, probably directly on 77 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.439 the greed of the desagenitos and the discharge. And then 78 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:30.519 you've got more sophisticated batteries where literally it's going to 79 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:33.600 be much more multifunction and plug pretty much on everything 80 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:35.879 and dis charge on everything. How do you see the 81 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:37.360 product evolution. 82 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:40.120 Over the last seven years that we've been doing this, 83 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.759 that's gone. We've kind of developed a very simple way 84 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:45.480 of doing this, which is a customer comes to us 85 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:48.879 because they want energy, they want electricity, and then the 86 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:51.199 first step we take is to see what their big 87 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:54.959 pot amount is. Based on that, we scale the battery system. 88 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:57.959 Then we look at what their capacity need is, so 89 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:01.560 their energy usage electricity search across twenty four hours or 90 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.120 the whole period of the project, and based on that 91 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:07.639 we choose the source of the electricity, which indeed, as 92 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.360 you say, should always be a great connection if you 93 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.120 can that can check or charge the battery system. But 94 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:16.000 if that's not enough or not available at all, then 95 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:18.040 we go down a list, which is do we have 96 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.800 space to place extra temporary solar, do we have the 97 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:26.240 possibility to deploy a hydrogen generator, or in the worst case, 98 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.279 do we have the last option of deploying a fossil 99 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.959 fuel generator, which we definitely don't want to do. But 100 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:35.959 at least by working this way and working in this order, 101 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:39.079 we can swap out the fossil fuel generator as soon 102 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.240 as we've gathered a bit of data, and we can 103 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:43.639 then make that cleaner and cleaner as we go along. 104 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:48.240 So it's not the same usage as those stationary storage 105 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.279 to work more on the transmission level, and you know, 106 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:53.879 we're talking fifty media a lot, and really these are 107 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.959 like football fields. This is much more granular. I would say, 108 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:02.759 it's much more adaptable to distribution system or your neighborhood 109 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:06.800 or small industrial sites. So it's really a niche of 110 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:07.240 its own. 111 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:11.639 Yeah, we definitely operate at the SO level or below, 112 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:14.639 and the reason of being is that's the level where 113 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.160 you can take quick steps. Where we are in the 114 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:19.759 energy transition now is a time where we need to 115 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:23.959 look for quick solutions that can be implemented tomorrow. So 116 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:26.160 if you are a factory, you can call us today 117 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:29.639 and we'll have a solution in place next week. And 118 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.199 that's only possible if you look at it from a 119 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:36.319 temporary nature where you can start deploying with a number 120 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:38.519 of batteries and then you can scale up and down 121 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:41.680 based on the actual usage and the seasonallyties of the 122 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:45.759 energy usage, but also keeping it modular so that you 123 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:48.560 can really scale it to what is needed exactly and 124 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:52.000 keep the cost slow. And because most of the challenges 125 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:57.040 in the energy transition are the decentralized generation of electricity 126 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:01.800 and also the electrification of businesses and homes and mobility, 127 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.000 all of that is playing on the SOO level and below. 128 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:08.720 Let's assume there is a ten foot container which is 129 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.079 going to be I don't know, root and fifty K 130 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:14.920 two hours or something like that. But if I order six, 131 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:17.959 I can plug them all with cables and that become 132 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:21.920 a one point five megawa battery or two hours, so 133 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.759 that works. They can work in parallel or in series, 134 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:25.319 so you can be. 135 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:29.439 Too depending on whether power or storage or capacity and 136 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:31.720 kilob What hours is your need. 137 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:35.000 And two hours is what you see that the market 138 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:36.079 needs in general? 139 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:41.199 Yeah, generally yes, because anything above two hours is probably 140 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.120 going to be too much capital in cells just waiting 141 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.800 around to be used. And anything below that also kind 142 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.639 of takes away the benefit of having a buffer in place. 143 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:53.439 So if you have a shorter time that you can 144 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:56.720 store the kilob of hours, that takes away the for example, 145 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.759 optimization when working with generators or solar. 146 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:02.959 It's a market I've been looking into. I mean the 147 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:06.040 secret We've known each other for four years now. Every 148 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.279 time I go, you know, on an exhibition, there's always 149 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:10.959 the guy with the twenty foot container. I say, oh, 150 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:12.839 but you know, you can pack eight mika whateur or 151 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.639 whatever in our continents. What do you think of the 152 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.680 limitation of trying to you know, having those two big 153 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:23.639 containers or too heavy versus the tope of application we're 154 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:24.519 seeing right now. 155 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:29.600 The luxury we had is we started from a world 156 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:33.720 of rentals, so we started from a very practical side 157 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.879 of the deployment of these systems. So we've been working 158 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.799 on construction sites and film sets and factories and grid 159 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:44.879 operators for many years now, and then when working in practice, 160 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:48.399 you really see what are the real issues, and that is, 161 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:51.360 for example, how much weight can you put on an 162 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:54.360 average truck because you want to use an average truck 163 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.559 to keep the transportation cast slow. What is the average 164 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.360 footprint you have on any given site, what is the 165 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:02.600 average size that you place. And based on all of 166 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.360 those data points, we've seen that there's not necessarily a 167 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:09.360 lot to win in putting a lot of kiloverde hours 168 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:11.960 in a cubic meter, but there's a lot to win 169 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:15.399 in just making it practical, making sure it works, making 170 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:19.960 sure that the software on the battery container is properly functioning, 171 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:22.200 so that it's a reliable system that you can plug 172 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.679 and play in that wide range of applications where those 173 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:26.600 batteries will be used. 174 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:30.039 And of course also as those batteries, I mean, they're 175 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.320 not going to move every week, but they're going to 176 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:35.440 move several times during the year, so you have always 177 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:38.399 the issue of the who's going to carry it. So 178 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:40.960 you know, in terms of forklift or crane or whatever, 179 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.600 I guess you'll find much more equipment that can carry 180 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:46.600 ten tones than forty tones. 181 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:50.399 Definitely, definitely, and it has been an issue in the beginning, 182 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.759 but now it's a mature industry and that's an exciting 183 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:56.120 moment because that's also the moment at which we can 184 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:00.840 really start thinking of the potential beyond rental. Been working 185 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:04.919 for years understanding the energy systems and understanding how they 186 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:07.440 work and also when they don't work. And we've been 187 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.120 spending years on understanding the energy user, their energy profiles, 188 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:14.960 their needs, what is important to them, and bringing those together, 189 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.799 and then also from scone side, bringing that all into 190 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:23.480 one marketplace, into one platform that operates globally and helps 191 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:26.559 to really be a strong force in the energy transition 192 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.080 and being able to help fight great congestion. 193 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:33.159 At skill we talk about the hardware. Let's go in 194 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.480 the digital part, because the difference of these oginitos, which 195 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:42.440 are really a very rustic technology. Here it's a much 196 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:46.279 more sophisticated beast. I learned a few years ago there 197 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.879 are two layears of software inside the battery, what called 198 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:51.799 the BMS and the EMS. So can you explain first 199 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.200 of all, listeners, the difference between the two. 200 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:59.159 Yeah, the BMS is the battery management software and that 201 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:01.960 is what is you to really keep the battery modules alive. 202 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:05.240 But you could have tens of hundreds of battery modules 203 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.480 inside any given battery container. The battery container as a 204 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.960 whole also includes temperature management, safety systems, location data, all 205 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:16.639 of that and that comes together in the EMS, the 206 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:20.720 energy management system. And there's still different terms going around 207 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:23.759 for this, but it basically comes down to how do 208 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.799 we put a software system inside that battery container so 209 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.440 that that battery container on one side can talk to 210 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:33.919 a lot of different energy sources to remain charged, and 211 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.039 on the other side, can it talk to different energy users. 212 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:42.720 So different frequencies, different voltages, different power outputs, different load profiles, 213 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:46.159 different ramp up times, ramp down times, all those different 214 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.840 things you have to think of because it's going to 215 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:52.159 be used by so many users. To also make sure 216 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.919 that it can compete on costs against the diesel generators. 217 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:58.679 If I some of eyes. The butty management system is 218 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:03.120 really inside the battery and the EMS is the interface 219 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:05.759 between the battery and the outside world. 220 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:10.799 Yes, exactly on location. And then scone is the interface 221 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:14.919 between all of those unique energy systems and you as 222 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:16.840 a user and you as a good operator. 223 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:20.440 Yeah, because there is so much data going on, and 224 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.639 of course we need to monitor remotely the state of charge, 225 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:27.799 the set of discharge, making sure that the battery is 226 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:31.279 not just too much or there are a certain parameters 227 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:34.759 of use. And then the moment you start having a 228 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:39.000 fleet of batteries ten twenty one hundred, if it's not 229 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.159 globally managed by you layer of asset manager. If you 230 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:46.039 want to manage that by Excel sheets, it's not going 231 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:46.639 to work. 232 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:50.559 We've seen people try, but then they do end up 233 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.480 using scone software tools because we bring together both the 234 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.279 energy data layer, so everything that the EMS produces in 235 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:01.639 terms of energy points, and we bring that together in 236 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:04.679 the same environment, the same platform where they also use 237 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:08.279 all the commercial tools, so also all of the data 238 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:11.240 points around money are in there. And one of the 239 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.960 simple tools we have, for example, is a decision tool, 240 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:16.960 which can make a simulation when a customer is in 241 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:20.039 contact with the salesperson what the cost is going to 242 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.600 be of a dec generator setup versus a clean setup. 243 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.960 And people are surprised how often it's actually cheaper to 244 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.159 go cleaner, and people almost don't believe it. And that's 245 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:33.799 why we build a decision tool, which is a really 246 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.279 objective and very transparent tool that make sure that all 247 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.440 the assumptions that somebody wants in there can be altered 248 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:43.960 all the way to matching the realistic project of the customer. 249 00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:47.480 And then still you'll see that it's cheaper to just 250 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:50.559 go cleaner because people often forget the fuel that pay for. 251 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:52.879 Plus on the top of that, I guess you calculated 252 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:55.720 the CEO two avoided emissions. 253 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:59.120 Exactly CO two NOx PM, all of the emissions that 254 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:02.159 are now big part of commercial processes. Because in the 255 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:06.320 end that's our goal. We just need to have more 256 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:10.120 and more commercial deployments of these systems, which is either 257 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.759 because people can save money or because people can win 258 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:18.080 more projects because of the CO two savings KNOC savings 259 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:20.960 rather types of emissions that would be limited by the 260 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:23.679 companies giving our tenders for construction projects for example. 261 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:26.799 But you know the best clients is those who don't 262 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:30.480 have the choice. It's like, yeah, exactly, love the battery, 263 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:34.200 I need a battery. I'm going out of business. Have 264 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:36.720 you seen that. I mean, I guess the past five 265 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.279 years or six years you've been doing that, you've seen 266 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:43.000 the batteries really progressing from a technological point of view. 267 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:45.519 So talk a bit about that, Talk a bit about 268 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:48.000 how the SOFTWARELS has improved over time. 269 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.480 Yeah, definitely, And what's really nice to see is that 270 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:56.159 there is rapid innovation and rapid improvement on all the levels, 271 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.720 from sell level all the way to container level. There 272 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:04.159 are steps being taken. And what's the most interesting thing 273 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.799 is you'll find out that the most important part of 274 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:12.240 any given system is the software that it's using and 275 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:15.200 the software that it is connected to. So the software 276 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.600 that it's using make sure that the system will always 277 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:20.919 stay alive despite the fact it's being used in so 278 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.759 many different applications, and the software is connected to will 279 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.679 give it a gateway to revenue, and that gateway to 280 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:30.360 revenue is something that people often forget, and that's also 281 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:34.320 the strength of mobile batteries. By connecting it to scone, 282 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.559 for example, you get the access to the marketplace where 283 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:40.320 you can get a lot of rental customers, but you 284 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.480 also get access to grid services, so you can do 285 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:47.559 energy trading and congestion management, and that is key because 286 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:50.080 what you want to do with these assets is constantly 287 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:53.799 be making money and not depend on maybe one source 288 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:54.360 of revenue. 289 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.600 Let me unpack that. So what you're saying is you 290 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.679 act first as a kind of broker between battery owners 291 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:05.360 and clients, so that's a bit of a classic. But 292 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:07.559 then on the top of that, you act as manager 293 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.279 once those batteries are operating, so you can track them 294 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:14.279 hour by hour or you know, or most live. But 295 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:18.159 also if there is no client per se, your client 296 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.639 becomes the grid, so you can plug them I don't 297 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.080 know where, and you'll tell me in which country it 298 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:27.600 works or it doesn't work, and be able to provide 299 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:32.600 whatever frequency services or daily habitrasure or I don't know what. 300 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.360 PISA elaborate a bit. 301 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.200 Yeah, you hit an eline headler. It's really that combination 302 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:43.279 between their companies wanting to replace THEESEL generators. They are 303 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:46.519 willing to pay for this, and you have the electricity 304 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.960 grid and they are already paying for this through existing 305 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:54.360 energy trading markets, and that is just going to expand, 306 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:57.159 and we see in every country where we are active. 307 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:00.720 We're active in fourteen countries now that the the energy 308 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:04.599 markets are developing at such a rapid rate because we 309 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:08.240 see that the stationary infrastructure of the grid is not 310 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.079 going to be able to keep up, and we see 311 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:15.000 that all their sources of flexibility are not going to 312 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.359 be enough. So every grid operator in the world is 313 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.799 looking for new sources of flexibility. And what we do 314 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.599 with scone, we don't only give flexibility in time by 315 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:29.200 providing storage where you can do some flexibility across the day, 316 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.079 but we also provide flexibility in space because a lot 317 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.839 of the congestion issues are seasonal three months a year 318 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.599 or are temporary until the time that the stationary infrastructure 319 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.440 is indeed being built. And by providing that combination of 320 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:49.599 flexibility in time and space, the grid operators globally can 321 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:52.759 really rely on us. And that's also why we made 322 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.200 sure to first build that suite of software tools and 323 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.559 the network in the marketplace so that we would be 324 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:02.319 at the right skill be a reliable partner to grid operators. 325 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:05.319 And you could say, be the flexible layer of the 326 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:06.119 electricity grid. 327 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:10.160 That's the best business model. You're providing duct tape to 328 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.880 a creaking system, Yeah, exactly. 329 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:17.279 And in the end we had conversations also internally, but 330 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:20.960 what if the grid is solved by then. Well, first 331 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:24.839 of all, that's probably quite far out, and second of all, 332 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:28.519 we do foresee a future in which we start to 333 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.880 actually get used to this duct tape and we start 334 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:36.480 seeing it as the safest, most reliable solution that we 335 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.880 can build on. And that is also on us to 336 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.119 make sure that our software continuously develops and that our 337 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:46.519 reliability and security is indeed at the level that the 338 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:50.119 grid operators want us to be. But it is going 339 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.359 to be an integral part of every electricity grid to 340 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.680 be moving around energy infrastructure to whereas needed. 341 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.359 Most So I'm going to give you some use have 342 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:02.759 been thinking about. You're going to tell me if it's 343 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.880 me dreaming of if I'm onto something. Okay, let's assume 344 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:11.519 I'm a new EV charging station and for whatever reason, 345 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.599 I have not pushed it to the maximum, and during 346 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.680 the summer, people are going to start queuing because it 347 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.920 takes too much time. So would those EV chargers install 348 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.839 a mobile battery for the summer to cope with extra dive? 349 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:29.599 Can you envision that. 350 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.160 That is definitely an example of one of our customers. 351 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:36.200 It is not as widely used in EV charging because 352 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:39.680 the extra revenue that an ev charger can get from 353 00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.640 having that actual capacity is limited. But for example, a 354 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:47.920 factory that buys a new production machine for their production line, 355 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.240 when they call the grid operator, they will not get 356 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:56.759 that space. Or entire neighborhoods which actually have a higher 357 00:19:57.319 --> 00:19:59.519 usage in the winter because of all the heating that 358 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:03.200 is electric, right, those also get in trouble. And that's 359 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.079 the level at which we're now scaling these solutions is 360 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:11.039 for dsls at serious power outputs, making sure that those 361 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.359 months where you struggle, that those are solved so that 362 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.039 we're not going to lock up the grid for years, 363 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.759 because in those few months a year and then those 364 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:22.839 few hours a day in those months, there is technical congestion. 365 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.319 Do you know what's the average time for a new 366 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:26.519 transformer right now? 367 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.200 For the hardware of a transformer? Yeah, I would say 368 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:32.920 that's the easier part. Let's talk about the pyramits, and 369 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.079 let's talk about other people involved, and let's talk about 370 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:40.039 three years, okay, permitting part nine years maybe? 371 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:44.240 Yeah. So I guess while a new transformer can arrive 372 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:48.599 to reorganize the power fluid in the neighborhood, some of 373 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:54.440 the solutions you propose would make sense. How many batteries 374 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.440 do you have under management right now compared to say 375 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.680 two years ago, and how do you see yourself into 376 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:00.640 a three time. 377 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:04.039 We're now getting into the thousands, which is exciting news 378 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.240 because we're going to need many And this is on 379 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:11.240 one part, because the rental industry is massively growing in 380 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.319 this space because of CO two emission regulations, because of 381 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:21.039 NOx emission regulations, because of electrification of machinery, and all 382 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:24.039 of that is growing. While at the same time grid 383 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.839 operators and are knocking on our doors and also seeing 384 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:30.799 this as one of their solutions to solve grid congestion. 385 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.920 And so those markets all together are probably going to 386 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:38.599 accelerate the growth line of number of systems, but also 387 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.599 a number of countries where we're active with our platform 388 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:46.279 because it is the only way forward. Flexibility is what 389 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:50.000 we need in electricity, grid electrification is what we need 390 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:53.559 as a society, and our role in NET is bringing 391 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:56.720 them all together in one platform, aggregating all the data, 392 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.039 building the best AOLS on top of it, so that 393 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.720 it's also very easy to find, very easy to use, 394 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:04.839 very easy to report on, and so that on a 395 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:08.400 commercial level, we can also compete with what the alternatives would. 396 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:12.279 Be oh so beautiful. I'm sorry, Ja, he's stuck on 397 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:14.160 his boat, so he could not participate to. 398 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:19.799 The He could not participate to the conversation, but he 399 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:24.519 always concludes without listening to the interview, and when he's cornered, 400 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:27.839 he talk about Harris Risky. So that's good to know. 401 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:28.759