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<v Speaker 1>Get ready.

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<v Speaker 2>January fifteenth, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing

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<v Speaker 2>we call a calendar. And yeah, I had to pause

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<v Speaker 2>there for a second because I almost said twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's not so not a replay if you're on

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<v Speaker 2>the live stream, if you're at Ochelly dot com or

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<v Speaker 2>using one of the radio apps, welcome to it. But

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<v Speaker 2>probably this is gonna get loaded into heavy, heavy rotation

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<v Speaker 2>for replay. Why well, we have talked about it a

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<v Speaker 2>few times over the past few months. Larry Hancock's Larry

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<v Speaker 2>Hancock and actually co authored by David boy Lin, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a name you might recognize from the last

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<v Speaker 2>Lancer conference. The name you might recognize because he's been

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<v Speaker 2>on the show before as well. Of course, Larry has

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<v Speaker 2>been on the show for years, and I talked recently

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<v Speaker 2>about extremely proud I am that that has been along

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<v Speaker 2>with me for a long ride here, and I went

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<v Speaker 2>for a long ride with this book, The Oswald Puzzle.

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<v Speaker 2>It is available now, okay, and I'm glad it is.

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<v Speaker 3>I know.

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<v Speaker 2>The guy's over at Lone Gunman and Dallas actually beat

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<v Speaker 2>me to it, and that's fine. I've been sick, I know,

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<v Speaker 2>and it is what it is. But on the other hand,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm happy that I've been along for the entire ride

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<v Speaker 2>the creation of this book. And I'm going to tell

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<v Speaker 2>you this now. I always recommend all of Larry's books,

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<v Speaker 2>so obviously I'm going to tell you that this one

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<v Speaker 2>belongs on your shelf too. But it's also an essential

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<v Speaker 2>book when it comes to understanding the JFK case. Now

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<v Speaker 2>that's something I've never said about any of Larry's books,

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<v Speaker 2>like they're great, they're helpful, they are recommended. Yes, absolutely,

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<v Speaker 2>they're in the top, you know, the top of the game,

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<v Speaker 2>that's for sure.

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<v Speaker 3>But I'm telling you.

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<v Speaker 2>Now this one is necessary. It's gonna upset some people,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, and rightfully so. Look, Larry Hancock's gonna explain

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<v Speaker 2>I think a little bit about the evolution of the book. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>we talked about it on the show before a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>But now that I have it in my hands, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>telling you now I've been able to and.

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<v Speaker 3>Here here's a big piece of spoiler work. Here.

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<v Speaker 2>When you look at the back of this and you

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<v Speaker 2>see that, you know, Dick Russell gave a gave a

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<v Speaker 2>little little blurb of the book. Of course, we see

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<v Speaker 2>you know, praise for Larry Hancock on the back of

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<v Speaker 2>the book.

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<v Speaker 3>It's Skyhorse book, right, Yeah, this is a Skyhorse book. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>I do recall that that was sent to me when

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<v Speaker 2>I was half out of it by Skyhorse. But anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>this thing is essential and it's great. It's got that

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<v Speaker 2>picture of Oswald on the front cover of a picture

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<v Speaker 2>you might be very familiar with, and a composite bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of photos commonly seen on the internet as like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the Lee Harvey Oswald experience on the internet and all that.

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<v Speaker 2>You get to the photo section of this thing, though,

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<v Speaker 2>you might get a little surprise. Anyway, I'm not gonna

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<v Speaker 2>talk about that. I'm gonna let these guys talk about it.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got Larry Hancock and David Boiling with me. So first, Larry,

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<v Speaker 2>how you doing tonight?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh? I'm doing good.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm as as usual as time. I've already ready for spring.

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<v Speaker 5>So but I'm okay now, just anticipating.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, well, believe it or not, even though I'm sitting

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<v Speaker 2>in Georgia. Larry, We're gonna freeze next week again. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like snow even now, you know how weird

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<v Speaker 2>that is for Georgia. That's gonna shut down the state. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that's chaos. The second half bitch of snow hits the

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<v Speaker 2>ground in Georgia, so I'm gonna have to stay inside

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<v Speaker 2>somehow again. But whatever. Anyway, we're halfway through the month

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<v Speaker 2>of January and they're shipping this out what today?

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<v Speaker 5>I actually started shipping yesterday. Oh yes, people are getting

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<v Speaker 5>it today. I've had several people right that they received

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<v Speaker 5>it today and they're starting to go through it.

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<v Speaker 3>Excellent.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, here's the thing about this book. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna tell you. You can use it as a reference book, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>depending on how your mind works with the case. But

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<v Speaker 2>also you can just read it in the order it's given.

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<v Speaker 2>Introduction by res Rex Bradford. He also participated heavily in

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<v Speaker 2>the editing, and David boil IND's with us. Now we

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<v Speaker 2>haven't given a chance to say hi to David yet,

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<v Speaker 2>but David, just how you're doing tonight and anything you

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<v Speaker 2>want to jump ahead of with this book, like right away,

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<v Speaker 2>first thing I got to say about this, or you

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<v Speaker 2>want to just tell us how you're doing.

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<v Speaker 3>That's fine too.

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<v Speaker 6>Either way. That's as usual this time of year. We're

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<v Speaker 6>all recovering from something like you are, you know, just

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<v Speaker 6>skinting over the flu, got a little bit of a cough,

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<v Speaker 6>throats pretty decent, so I'm able to converse.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, your throats out better than mine, feels, I'll tell

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<v Speaker 2>you that. But that's okay. We'll get through this together.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Larry, we have already talked about the evolution of

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<v Speaker 2>the book all right on other shows. How do you

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<v Speaker 2>feel about the way it came out, the completion of

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<v Speaker 2>it when you got it in your hands first, which

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<v Speaker 2>you obviously got in your hands before everybody else, And

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, how do you feel about it? What do

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<v Speaker 2>you think about it personally? Considering that you've done a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of writing, a lot of presentation, free books, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>re issues of books already. I mean, how many would

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<v Speaker 2>someone would have talked? Has already been reissued?

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<v Speaker 6>What?

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<v Speaker 3>Three times? Correct?

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<v Speaker 4>Three version?

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<v Speaker 3>Just three versions?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm just saying I'm not complaining. I'm just saying that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's been around long enough, and you've got

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<v Speaker 2>tipping point, and I mean, you know you've had to

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<v Speaker 2>address this a lot, and finally to sort of reevaluate

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<v Speaker 2>Oswald excuse me, kind of a tough thing to do.

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<v Speaker 5>No, Yeah, I like it because I think it's it's

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<v Speaker 5>something I have not done before. The books that I've

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<v Speaker 5>done before are kind of like the Conspiracy in a way.

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<v Speaker 4>They're all over the place.

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<v Speaker 5>Because you have to be, because there are so many

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<v Speaker 5>different elements you have to deal with, you know, whether

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<v Speaker 5>it's Daly Plaza, you know, you're you're going all over

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<v Speaker 5>the country, You're going with different groups, You're going with

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<v Speaker 5>different uh with a different time frame, what happened before,

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<v Speaker 5>what happened.

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<v Speaker 4>After, and so they're all composites.

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<v Speaker 5>The nice thing about this book and focusing on Oswalt

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<v Speaker 5>is it it's inherently more structured. You know, you're just

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<v Speaker 5>you're you're just looking at one person and the conspiracy

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<v Speaker 5>eventually in the book, and the book does you know

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<v Speaker 5>it's not all conspiracy. It's all Oswald plus a conspiracy

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<v Speaker 5>overlaid on Oswalt. So from that that standpoint, I like

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<v Speaker 5>the way it reads UH And I think readers who

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<v Speaker 5>maybe one of one of the things we've got to admit,

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<v Speaker 5>and David and Ill both say this book was not

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<v Speaker 5>necessarily written for the conspiracy community, right. It was written

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<v Speaker 5>for a more general community that has always been interested

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<v Speaker 5>in the assassination, but in Oswald. So it's it's written

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<v Speaker 5>for a broader community.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, And look, and here's here's the thing I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to address directly with you, which is going to sound

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<v Speaker 2>a little confrontational, but bear with me. If you go

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<v Speaker 2>with the time periods. Okay, and you and I have

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<v Speaker 2>talked about this before. When you're working in a particular

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<v Speaker 2>time period, you're influenced by that time period based on

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<v Speaker 2>what's sort of happening. Okay, And you got to admit

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<v Speaker 2>there's a big change post fortieth anniversary. Everybody talks about

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<v Speaker 2>a big change since the fiftieth you know, that was

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<v Speaker 2>the big marker. But I don't see it that way.

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<v Speaker 2>I've always said that once we hit the fortieth things

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<v Speaker 2>changed a lot because technology, you know, a certain things up.

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<v Speaker 2>We had a greater worldwide sort of connection here. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you have the Australian group, you have the UK group,

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<v Speaker 2>now much bigger than it was back then. It has

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<v Speaker 2>all grown, but it's grown in an atmosphere where it

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<v Speaker 2>was influenced by its time.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>You have the post ARRB sort of reality that sets

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<v Speaker 2>in around the fortieth anniversary. You have some innovations that occur,

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<v Speaker 2>you have the conferences being much more publicly aware or

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<v Speaker 2>the public more aware of them. I should say all

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<v Speaker 2>of that stuff started to happen in my mind after

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<v Speaker 2>the fortieth anniversary. Now you're working in that time period,

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<v Speaker 2>so you go from there to the fiftieth. Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 2>a big milestone. It's a celebration sort of because there's

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<v Speaker 2>been a lot of work in fifty years since the

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<v Speaker 2>event itself, et cetera, etc. But still a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people thought it was over at that point.

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<v Speaker 3>It is not.

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<v Speaker 2>And these atmospherees shifted now. I'm trying very very hard

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<v Speaker 2>not to put any descriptions on them, but maybe you could.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think about the past twenty years? And

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<v Speaker 2>in my mind this might have not been a necessary

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<v Speaker 2>book in two thousand and three. You advance to twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five. This is necessary now to reevaluate this character

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<v Speaker 2>who has been discussed, maligned, demonized, turned into a saint,

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<v Speaker 2>turned into a double oh seven figure, turned into a

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<v Speaker 2>fan fiction figure of all kinds of romantic intent, and

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<v Speaker 2>d D da Da da Dad and all that nonsense

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<v Speaker 2>has gone on. A realistic, solid evaluation was needed from

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<v Speaker 2>somebody who could do it, and in my mind, you're

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<v Speaker 2>one of the.

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<v Speaker 3>Few people who could do it.

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<v Speaker 2>So here we are, and this is why it's essential.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, if you're interested in the case. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't say if you're interested in the conspiracy, because I

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<v Speaker 2>agree with Larry, this is useful to anyone who is

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<v Speaker 2>interested in this character in history.

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<v Speaker 3>That's it.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's information in here that I've not seen before.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay that I've not seen articulated. I've seen suggested, but

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<v Speaker 2>I've actually seen it late doubt. And I'm not going

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<v Speaker 2>to tell you what it is. I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>spoil anything for anybody. But you go section to section. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>each section is named rather explicitly, so you could utilize

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<v Speaker 2>it based on the section of interest. I was particularly

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<v Speaker 2>interested in Mexico City. I was particularly interested in the

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<v Speaker 2>New Orleans reevaluation, etc. But Larry, talk to me about

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<v Speaker 2>the time period here, the past twenty years. Do you

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<v Speaker 2>think it changed from two thousand and three or a

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<v Speaker 2>mile off on that?

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<v Speaker 5>Oh, it definitely changed, Chuck, And I think when you're

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<v Speaker 5>talking about this, you're right. Maybe the word I would

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<v Speaker 5>use would be eras eras you know, what era are

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<v Speaker 5>you working in?

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<v Speaker 3>You know, that's.

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<v Speaker 5>Immediately after the assassination. For ten twenty years you have

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<v Speaker 5>the skeptical error, where were those people that are doing

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<v Speaker 5>the work are consistently finding problems and consistencies whatever with

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<v Speaker 5>the warrant commission.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything is deconsious, the deconstruction and guessing game from the deconstruction, right, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>go ahead.

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<v Speaker 5>And maybe that is that's that's a good term. They

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<v Speaker 5>are deconstructing, which means you're pulling it all apart. And

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<v Speaker 5>what you do when you pull everything apart is it's

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<v Speaker 5>all mysterious. You know, everything is questionable. All you know

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<v Speaker 5>is you didn't get the real story, So everything is questionable.

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<v Speaker 4>Everything's full of mystery, you know.

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<v Speaker 5>And that that keeps going on through the Garrison era

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<v Speaker 5>when we add more deconstruction and more mystery to it,

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<v Speaker 5>more names, i mean, the names and suspects that come

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<v Speaker 5>out in the first decade are added to and that's

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<v Speaker 5>what happens for three or four decades. It's a continual

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<v Speaker 5>We're deconstructing more, we're finding more persons of interest, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>and things continue to get more mysterious.

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<v Speaker 4>There are more leads now.

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<v Speaker 2>The seventies and eighties provide us with you know, reasons

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<v Speaker 2>for skepticism in the government's explanation, you know Nixon, the

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<v Speaker 2>hearings in the Senate, the hearings in the House, the

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<v Speaker 2>official government record expands. It isn't all made public. But

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<v Speaker 2>even in the eighties, going into the eighties, we got

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<v Speaker 2>Iran contract, we got oh wait a minute, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of questions we could ask here, and that expands

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<v Speaker 2>it again, that universe in not twenty years.

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<v Speaker 5>Right, yeah, And at that point it's growing. I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>it's the conspiracy in essence, isn't growth stage right? Things

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<v Speaker 5>are getting more complex and more complex. And what really

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<v Speaker 5>happens is then we get to the nineties, we get

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<v Speaker 5>the JFK Records Act, we get the ARB, and for

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<v Speaker 5>the next twenty years we have an exponential growth and

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<v Speaker 5>again another round of skepticism and more complexity because we're

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<v Speaker 5>seeing inside things. Things that were mysterious four are no

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<v Speaker 5>longer mysterious. But then we have a whole set of

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<v Speaker 5>new things that are So it's kind of like round

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<v Speaker 5>one skepticism, Round two, more skepticism. And by this time

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<v Speaker 5>we've got an awesome amount of detail. We're almost to

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<v Speaker 5>the point by the beginning of this century where you

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<v Speaker 5>can take any set of data that you want and

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<v Speaker 5>make it be whatever you want because there's so.

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<v Speaker 4>Much of it and everything is so interconnected.

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<v Speaker 2>See I borrow from Henry Hurt and say, it's the

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<v Speaker 2>reasonable doubt era where you have reasonable doubts. And I

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<v Speaker 2>don't mean to say that it's just reasonable doubt against

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<v Speaker 2>the government's case.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean it's reasonable doubt in all.

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<v Speaker 2>Directions, Okay, which opened things up wider for that turn

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<v Speaker 2>of the century. I talked about where I feel as

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<v Speaker 2>though that twenty years is different. So but but I

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<v Speaker 2>call that the reasonable doubt era.

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<v Speaker 3>Again. Apologies, but go ahead, Larry.

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<v Speaker 4>Now there we go.

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<v Speaker 5>Further, and I think you know it's a commons to

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<v Speaker 5>stay that for history. Let's talk about real history. Yes,

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<v Speaker 5>we pretty much know the real history on almost any subject,

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<v Speaker 5>but certainly anything that involves crime, conspiracy.

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<v Speaker 4>You know that's somewhat sensational.

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<v Speaker 5>It takes fifty to sixty years for people to start

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<v Speaker 5>writing real history, right.

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<v Speaker 4>Historians know this.

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<v Speaker 5>It's sort of like, you know, well, see why might

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<v Speaker 5>not major writing about politics today because it's politics, it's

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<v Speaker 5>not history.

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<v Speaker 4>You can't see it yet, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's my cut in here for again to mention

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<v Speaker 2>the late Roger Remington, right, because he was a historian

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<v Speaker 2>that I interacted with, and he was a trained historian

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<v Speaker 2>technically that was you know, that was what he was

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<v Speaker 2>trained for. Aquinas college, not a big college. No no, no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't care about that. But what he taught me

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<v Speaker 2>about was the idea of perspective and that was literally

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<v Speaker 2>the French word for it and all that it was

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to be. You can't write about a historical event unl.

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<v Speaker 2>Twenty five years later, well, this thing called modern contemporary

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<v Speaker 2>history was sort of introduced into the literature stream. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>call it, you know, Rise and Paul, the third Reich, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And that was the principle I worked with for a

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<v Speaker 2>little while to say, well, this is why all these

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<v Speaker 2>mistakes are going to be made. And I patiently sat

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<v Speaker 2>and waited and said, this is a good process. This

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<v Speaker 2>is still the investigative era in my mind. In that

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<v Speaker 2>first forty years, that's all investigative. It's not any conclusion.

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<v Speaker 2>Anybody who said I've got the case solved, this one

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<v Speaker 2>had the case solved.

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<v Speaker 3>You're lining yourself because.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of things that are not going to

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<v Speaker 2>be within our grasp no matter what.

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<v Speaker 5>But anyway, and you begin to realize that, I think

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<v Speaker 5>reality sets in and once you get to the stage

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<v Speaker 5>we are I think most people that are involved with

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<v Speaker 5>this kind of like we have ninety five percent of

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<v Speaker 5>the information that we're going to get or maybe even

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<v Speaker 5>bigger percentage. And know there really probably aren't any smoking

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<v Speaker 5>gun records that survived and you know that you but

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<v Speaker 5>I think what has happened in this last decade, and

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<v Speaker 5>David is responsible for a lot of this in the

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00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:18.480
<v Speaker 5>areas that we've been touching, is there has to be

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<v Speaker 5>a time when you stop making puzzle pieces and you

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00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.919
<v Speaker 5>start putting them together right, and you start fitting them,

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00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:29.919
<v Speaker 5>and there has to be a point in time when

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<v Speaker 5>you begin to make use of all the data that

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00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:37.919
<v Speaker 5>people did manage to collect and you start going, well,

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<v Speaker 5>these pieces really fit together, and great, they are consistent,

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<v Speaker 5>there's continuity. This piece of the puzzle fits together. Yeah,

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00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:51.080
<v Speaker 5>are there pieces that are left over that are you know,

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<v Speaker 5>outside the puzzle. There are, but it's the ones that

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00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.240
<v Speaker 5>you can actually start putting together and go, oh, this

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00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:02.720
<v Speaker 5>paint's kind of like a self corroborating picture because the

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00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:05.319
<v Speaker 5>piece is fit. There has to be a point in

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<v Speaker 5>time if you want real history where the pieces actually fit.

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<v Speaker 5>And from our perspective, that's what David and Bill Sempach

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00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.839
<v Speaker 5>and Jeff Morley and a lot of people have started

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<v Speaker 5>doing over the last decade is providing the puzzle pieces

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<v Speaker 5>that fit together. You know, that where you can eliminate

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<v Speaker 5>some of the mystery. Yeah, is there this individual that

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<v Speaker 5>you'll never understand and you don't know how to fit

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<v Speaker 5>into the puzzle that remained suspicious forever. Yeah, there's some

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<v Speaker 5>of those, but you have to focus on what you

326
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:43.200
<v Speaker 5>actually get to the point of being comfortable with what

327
00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:45.680
<v Speaker 5>does fit and what story does that tell you? From

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<v Speaker 5>the history history totally complete. No history is ever totally complete.

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<v Speaker 5>So I guess maybe to answer your question, I think

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<v Speaker 5>during the last decade we have reached the point where

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<v Speaker 5>we can actually see some history. It's it's you know,

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<v Speaker 5>it's closing in. Things are fitting together, things that you

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<v Speaker 5>didn't even know two decades ago when I first started writing,

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00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.880
<v Speaker 5>I didn't know most of this stuff right, and it's

335
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<v Speaker 5>somebody asked me, well, how do you know that you're

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<v Speaker 5>not cherry picking? And the answer to me is, I

337
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<v Speaker 5>know I'm not cherry picking when I start finding things

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<v Speaker 5>I wasn't looking for. If I just find things i'm

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00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:30.559
<v Speaker 5>looking for, I've got to wonder if if I'm behind

340
00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:32.960
<v Speaker 5>the thing, you know, if I'm driving it, or if

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00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.519
<v Speaker 5>the information is driving it. And more recently in the

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<v Speaker 5>past few years, especially with what David's done in regarding

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<v Speaker 5>New Orleans and Miami, like, these were things that we

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<v Speaker 5>never knew and suddenly they're there and they fit. That's

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00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:48.680
<v Speaker 5>a real crucial phase.

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<v Speaker 2>So at this point I want to bring David into

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<v Speaker 2>the conversation directly because I want to know what era

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00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:56.720
<v Speaker 2>you jumped in, David, and see what you have to

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<v Speaker 2>say about what we said so far regarding this these

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<v Speaker 2>different eras sort of and the evolution of the case,

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<v Speaker 2>because you come in at a very strange time where

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<v Speaker 2>I took notice of you, and you know, I know

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<v Speaker 2>you had to have been involved before that. When I

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<v Speaker 2>took notice of you, for sure, other people started coming

355
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<v Speaker 2>to going, you know, this guy's doing some stuff here

356
00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.000
<v Speaker 2>which is a little different. He's obviously combing over things

357
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.799
<v Speaker 2>that other people missed, and I go, oh, well, this

358
00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.640
<v Speaker 2>is a guy I need to talk to. But next

359
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.039
<v Speaker 2>thing I knew is everybody knew who you were, and

360
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<v Speaker 2>I was like, okay, okay, this makes sense, but when

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<v Speaker 2>did you come into this Exactly this case, just.

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<v Speaker 6>Before Oliver Stone's movie came out, believe it or not,

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<v Speaker 6>I was doing a lot of reading and then when

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<v Speaker 6>all of a Stone's movie came out.

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<v Speaker 3>All of a sudden, ah, okay.

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<v Speaker 6>We're able to get a lot more documents. But back then,

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<v Speaker 6>a lot of the things weren't online, so we had

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<v Speaker 6>to request them.

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<v Speaker 2>If you remember, yes, the riff numbers, and you had

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<v Speaker 2>to know what you were looking for and.

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<v Speaker 6>Oh yeah, so you submit a request the National Archives,

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<v Speaker 6>and every US citizen was allowed one hundred free pages.

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<v Speaker 6>Sometimes they gave you more, you know. So I tried

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<v Speaker 6>to get like Lauren Hall's testimony, a bunch of things

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<v Speaker 6>like that, and I also recruited for all of my

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00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.839
<v Speaker 6>family members. They all of a sudden started getting packages

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<v Speaker 6>from the National Archives. So, I mean, that's what was

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00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:22.240
<v Speaker 6>what it was like back in the days. You had

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<v Speaker 6>to get the hard copy and you can only get

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<v Speaker 6>so much. So I think everybody I ever met would

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<v Speaker 6>eventually get their hundred pages and the mail from the

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<v Speaker 6>National Archives, right, And that's when the Archives they were

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<v Speaker 6>very They were help very response, very responsible, very helpful.

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<v Speaker 2>Even if you made a mistake, okay, and I made

385
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.680
<v Speaker 2>a couple of mistakes requesting stuff.

386
00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:44.200
<v Speaker 3>They helped me.

387
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:47.079
<v Speaker 2>Actually, you know, I actually get a phone call because

388
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.480
<v Speaker 2>you'd give them a phone contact number, and you know,

389
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.839
<v Speaker 2>we had we had landlines back then, folks, and they

390
00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:54.880
<v Speaker 2>would call you and talk to you like, look, you

391
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<v Speaker 2>kind of have a little some off.

392
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<v Speaker 3>Do you mean this or this? And they would fix it.

393
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, now you didn't get it right, they might

394
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:03.000
<v Speaker 2>just send it back to you if you send it

395
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<v Speaker 2>to you know, paper through the mail. And the other

396
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.200
<v Speaker 2>weird thing I want to I want to see if

397
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:09.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, because this seems like you and I came

398
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:12.559
<v Speaker 2>into the case same time, which is funny to me,

399
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:15.839
<v Speaker 2>but because eighty eight is when I come in, twenty

400
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:17.839
<v Speaker 2>fifth anniversary, a lot of media awareness.

401
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:22.000
<v Speaker 3>That's me. But you know, the next thing I know

402
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:23.119
<v Speaker 3>is Oliver Stone hits.

403
00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:25.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm then aware of the you know, release the damn

404
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:28.720
<v Speaker 2>files of people, you know, and I'm going, yeah, I'm

405
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:30.960
<v Speaker 2>with them, let's go, let's get it out, let's get

406
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:31.839
<v Speaker 2>it on, let's.

407
00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.799
<v Speaker 3>Get to it. Uh. And that's the era I came in.

408
00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:37.680
<v Speaker 2>But the weird thing was you got frustrated by it too,

409
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:39.759
<v Speaker 2>because your hundred pages could get eaten up by you know,

410
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.960
<v Speaker 2>multiple copies of the same stupid you know, you think

411
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:46.279
<v Speaker 2>you're getting a file of some special importance. This person's

412
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:49.759
<v Speaker 2>personal file contains four copies of the same damn newspaper,

413
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:52.799
<v Speaker 2>clipping over and over again. And also you know three

414
00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.920
<v Speaker 2>four blank pages for no reason. So you're you know,

415
00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:59.480
<v Speaker 2>you get copies of those blank pages. Thanks and the

416
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.160
<v Speaker 2>trans middle thing telling you what it is you got,

417
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<v Speaker 2>uh you recall all that.

418
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<v Speaker 3>Too, right?

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<v Speaker 6>Oh yeah, get some that just say referred to an

420
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.640
<v Speaker 6>second agency, another agency, really, you know, so the CIA

421
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:15.559
<v Speaker 6>would refer to the FBI, the FBI refer to the CIA. Sorry,

422
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.680
<v Speaker 6>we can't, you know, release this document. So it was

423
00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.119
<v Speaker 6>also the age of early the internet too, so we're

424
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:25.200
<v Speaker 6>able to communicate with a lot of people back then,

425
00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:28.480
<v Speaker 6>you'd be surprised to would you know, send an email

426
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:32.200
<v Speaker 6>communicating with you know, like Mary Farrell My email back

427
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:36.000
<v Speaker 6>and forth with her, and Gordon Winslow, Gaydon Fonzie. You

428
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.759
<v Speaker 6>know a lot of these people were available via you know,

429
00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.759
<v Speaker 6>via email back then or small little groups, so they

430
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:46.039
<v Speaker 6>would call it back then, Yeah.

431
00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Ed Lopez even was available to some people, not everybody, uh,

432
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:52.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, depending if you were in the like Solandria group,

433
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:56.720
<v Speaker 2>which I had been tangentially involved in. Somehow my email

434
00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:59.519
<v Speaker 2>got in there the first email address I had, uh,

435
00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:01.319
<v Speaker 2>and I'm I'm on a list with people that I

436
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:03.160
<v Speaker 2>couldn't believe I was on a list with. And they

437
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:06.240
<v Speaker 2>were starting to share documents and they would just be

438
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:08.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of attached. And that was back in the days

439
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:09.440
<v Speaker 2>when you know, you couldn't you didn't have a scanner

440
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:14.319
<v Speaker 2>at home, right, So everybody's going to places like Kinko's

441
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.920
<v Speaker 2>or whatever and scanning this stuff in and we're yeah,

442
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:21.440
<v Speaker 2>we're in the rudimentary stage of sharing these documents. Now

443
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:24.559
<v Speaker 2>today it's a lot easier. Even the National Archives allows

444
00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:27.960
<v Speaker 2>you to see a lot of stuff instantly when it's released,

445
00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:31.960
<v Speaker 2>which is nice. But then again it also becomes suspect,

446
00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:34.680
<v Speaker 2>right because you're sitting there going, well, if they're making

447
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:38.759
<v Speaker 2>this available you know this easily, then how important is it?

448
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.440
<v Speaker 2>And a lot of times again it's still garbage or

449
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.039
<v Speaker 2>it's something you've already seen somewhere else. And then you

450
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.359
<v Speaker 2>had the change in the classifications right where stuff you

451
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:50.799
<v Speaker 2>know becomes classified again, which wasn't class you know, and

452
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:52.680
<v Speaker 2>back and forth and now you're not even allowed to

453
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:54.720
<v Speaker 2>know what it is you might have in your hands.

454
00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:56.640
<v Speaker 2>You might have a classified document in your hands, you

455
00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:01.119
<v Speaker 2>don't even know it. Weird stuff, and that sort of

456
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:04.200
<v Speaker 2>put people off the document searches, and then other people

457
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:05.440
<v Speaker 2>became document hounds.

458
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:06.680
<v Speaker 6>Yeah that's me.

459
00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:07.559
<v Speaker 3>There you go.

460
00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:12.359
<v Speaker 2>So that's where you definitely come in as doing major work.

461
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:14.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, do you think you were just curious around

462
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:17.799
<v Speaker 2>the Oliver Stone time and then you found that niche

463
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:19.759
<v Speaker 2>like a few years later or what.

464
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.960
<v Speaker 6>Very curious it was interested in. You know, it's a

465
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.200
<v Speaker 6>combination over lap with you know, the right wing, the

466
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:33.000
<v Speaker 6>ultra right, and the Kennedy assassination. After reading Dick Russell's book,

467
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:35.440
<v Speaker 6>you know, the man who knew too much there, but

468
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:38.839
<v Speaker 6>he had so much about the right wing in there

469
00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:41.839
<v Speaker 6>that I kind of gravitated towards that in my early study,

470
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.319
<v Speaker 6>Like how Jerry Hemming and Lauren Hall all hang around,

471
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.519
<v Speaker 6>hung around with a lot of the ultra you know guy,

472
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.880
<v Speaker 6>some members of the Klan, John Birch minute men. These

473
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:53.680
<v Speaker 6>are the people who they were associated with. So I

474
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:56.160
<v Speaker 6>kind of went in that direction for a few years,

475
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.480
<v Speaker 6>and then came back towards after reading Larry's book, you know,

476
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.000
<v Speaker 6>like someone would have talked, right, I said, oh, okay,

477
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:05.160
<v Speaker 6>this is where I want to go now. So that's

478
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:06.640
<v Speaker 6>where I've been ever since.

479
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:07.240
<v Speaker 1>Right.

480
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.039
<v Speaker 2>And then there's been some you know, wild stuff again,

481
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:14.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, like the the Wall Brown's you know, massive

482
00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:17.880
<v Speaker 2>volume on the CD right that came out and you're like, whoa,

483
00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:20.480
<v Speaker 2>you know which what worked on for a long time.

484
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:22.960
<v Speaker 3>I was talking to him a lot during that. It

485
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:23.519
<v Speaker 3>was crazy.

486
00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:25.799
<v Speaker 2>He called a guy up on the phone, Hey, well,

487
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:28.160
<v Speaker 2>how you doing, and he starts off the conversation with

488
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:29.039
<v Speaker 2>on this date.

489
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:32.000
<v Speaker 3>Like you know, and it doesn't matter.

490
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.720
<v Speaker 2>It was me random like you know, March thirteenth, this happened,

491
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:38.079
<v Speaker 2>you know whatever, and March twenty eighth. This is what

492
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:39.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be doing next. Because there's not too

493
00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:43.039
<v Speaker 2>much that goes on there for a couple of weeks, okay, whatever,

494
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:46.440
<v Speaker 2>But he's pulling up minuscule things and putting them together

495
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:47.559
<v Speaker 2>in the Master Chronology.

496
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:48.759
<v Speaker 6>Man.

497
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:50.799
<v Speaker 2>Previous to that, we had some other stuff, you know,

498
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:55.079
<v Speaker 2>the Milestone books. But Larry's book, Yeah, this is where

499
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.960
<v Speaker 2>things get really strange because you have these different splinters

500
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.000
<v Speaker 2>occur now well, being involved in this kind of a book,

501
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:06.039
<v Speaker 2>I kind of asked you off air, you know where

502
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:09.599
<v Speaker 2>it is you think you were most involved here because

503
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:11.200
<v Speaker 2>I know a lot of this stuff came out of

504
00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:13.839
<v Speaker 2>Larry's brain. A lot of this stuff got rearranged by

505
00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Rex Bradford. Rex again writes the introduction to this book,

506
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:19.599
<v Speaker 2>but he also did a lot of editing work on it.

507
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if Skyhorse went over it again. I

508
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:24.640
<v Speaker 2>don't know if they would have had to after Rex

509
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:28.960
<v Speaker 2>painfully edit stings. And that's said with a lot of love.

510
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:29.440
<v Speaker 6>Rex.

511
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:32.079
<v Speaker 2>I want you to know, but I got to tell

512
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:35.359
<v Speaker 2>you some authors have described Rex's editing as painful.

513
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:37.680
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure Larry didn't take it personally.

514
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:39.920
<v Speaker 4>But now that would be me. Yeah, he knows that.

515
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.240
<v Speaker 2>I would try to leave you out of it, Larry,

516
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.880
<v Speaker 2>but okay, that's on you. But anyway, I mean being

517
00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:51.240
<v Speaker 2>involved in this process, David, just you know, last thing,

518
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:54.359
<v Speaker 2>and then I want Larry to pick up after you know,

519
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:57.119
<v Speaker 2>how do you feel about it? Because this is in

520
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.240
<v Speaker 2>my mind. Seriously, And I don't just say this because

521
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:02.480
<v Speaker 2>I love Larry. If this book sucked, guys, I tell

522
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.279
<v Speaker 2>you this book is terrible, and Larry dropped the ball here.

523
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:08.160
<v Speaker 2>I would tell you that, but he didn't, and neither

524
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.079
<v Speaker 2>did David, and neither did Rex.

525
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:10.720
<v Speaker 3>Nobody did.

526
00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:15.319
<v Speaker 2>This is an excellent volume if you want to study

527
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Lee Harvey Oswalt. Okay, And I'm not talking about the conspiracies.

528
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:22.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying you can put all that crap in context

529
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.400
<v Speaker 2>from what I've read. And I haven't even finished it

530
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:27.880
<v Speaker 2>yet because I've been ill, but I can see already

531
00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:31.880
<v Speaker 2>that I can take a part individual areas of the

532
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:34.359
<v Speaker 2>conspiracy and use this book to guide me.

533
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:35.640
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

534
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:39.200
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not saying you know everything in here is

535
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:41.799
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent. I never say that, but I will

536
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:44.839
<v Speaker 2>tell you that this is as close as you're going

537
00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:49.920
<v Speaker 2>to get to an independently written reference book, okay, on

538
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:54.240
<v Speaker 2>Lee Harvey Oswald, and as much as, say, like Robert

539
00:27:54.279 --> 00:27:57.279
<v Speaker 2>Grudin's picture book, The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald is

540
00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:01.119
<v Speaker 2>a really good volume. You want to see every visual

541
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:04.039
<v Speaker 2>image that could possibly be gotten a hold of. Even so,

542
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:06.519
<v Speaker 2>this book has a couple images I haven't seen before,

543
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.920
<v Speaker 2>at least that I don't remember seeing them. Maybe they

544
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.920
<v Speaker 2>have been seen elsewhere, but I don't remember them. But

545
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:14.680
<v Speaker 2>the visuals are just a side issue in this book.

546
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:15.480
<v Speaker 2>It's nice, but.

547
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:17.920
<v Speaker 3>Not the key.

548
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:21.079
<v Speaker 2>The information is key, and this is an essential book

549
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:23.359
<v Speaker 2>if you want to study Oswald. So, David, how do

550
00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:25.480
<v Speaker 2>you feel about being involved in this book anyway? Just

551
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:29.039
<v Speaker 2>in general? And then, like I said, I'd like Larry

552
00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:30.680
<v Speaker 2>to pick up and tell us what we need to

553
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:33.319
<v Speaker 2>know about it a little more going forward.

554
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:37.759
<v Speaker 6>Oh, thank goodness, Larry pulled me into this. You know,

555
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.160
<v Speaker 6>so we've actually worked together, I don't know, all of

556
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.119
<v Speaker 6>the last five six years, sharing as much as we can.

557
00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:46.000
<v Speaker 6>Because so the way we're going to get to the

558
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.079
<v Speaker 6>bottom of this puzzle, you know, Laswell puzzle is when

559
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:52.759
<v Speaker 6>we share data, share its findings, share thoughts.

560
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:56.200
<v Speaker 2>Great great collaborative piece. Actually you both did at Lancer

561
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.559
<v Speaker 2>this year, Larry remotely and you in person, which was excellent.

562
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:02.680
<v Speaker 2>Now I didn't watch it live because I was busy

563
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:05.119
<v Speaker 2>doing a lot of other things, but I look back

564
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:08.720
<v Speaker 2>at it and uh man, you guys did an excellent

565
00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.640
<v Speaker 2>job setting this book up in my mind at the

566
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.680
<v Speaker 2>Lanswer conference. But go ahead, go ahead, Sorry, I just

567
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:15.920
<v Speaker 2>want to.

568
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:17.279
<v Speaker 3>Point that out. So it was really good.

569
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.720
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, So, I mean, as Larry, you know, he started

570
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.359
<v Speaker 6>the whole ball rolling, and I just kind of added

571
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.559
<v Speaker 6>to it, you know, as it just picked It's like

572
00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:31.680
<v Speaker 6>a snowball going downhill, just kept picking up steam and

573
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:36.200
<v Speaker 6>picking up pieces and just eventually turned into a good

574
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.119
<v Speaker 6>shape towards the end, as you can see.

575
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:38.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and.

576
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.640
<v Speaker 6>Eventually as life said, well, we've got to stop soon,

577
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.640
<v Speaker 6>you know, we just can't keep adding to this, you know,

578
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:47.799
<v Speaker 6>it just keeps growing and growing and growing. Wanting to

579
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:50.319
<v Speaker 6>make it readable after what far and fifty two pages?

580
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:52.319
<v Speaker 6>So right, right, right?

581
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:57.599
<v Speaker 5>Uh yeah, certainly there were other questions that could be asked,

582
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:01.519
<v Speaker 5>but the space to answer them, and I think I

583
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:04.440
<v Speaker 5>think that opens a very good point about the book,

584
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:09.400
<v Speaker 5>about the Oswald section and the other section, the framing section,

585
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:11.920
<v Speaker 5>if you will. One of the things we tried to

586
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:13.839
<v Speaker 5>go for in the book was a lot of balance,

587
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:18.720
<v Speaker 5>because we're we're we're taking positions on certain things, but

588
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:21.880
<v Speaker 5>we realize that there are counterpositions that have been around

589
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.119
<v Speaker 5>for a long time. So a lot of a lot

590
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:28.440
<v Speaker 5>of work went into saying, all right, this is our assessment.

591
00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:32.119
<v Speaker 5>Other people think differently, and here's where you can find

592
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:35.039
<v Speaker 5>their view. So there was a lot of time spit

593
00:30:35.079 --> 00:30:40.279
<v Speaker 5>putting in links and references into opposing views. So if

594
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:42.440
<v Speaker 5>somebody gets hooked on this who hasn't been in the

595
00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:47.319
<v Speaker 5>game at all, they can check it out and go, well,

596
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:51.680
<v Speaker 5>all right, they've I like their picture better than your picture.

597
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:57.160
<v Speaker 4>Okay, fine. But I think a real important part.

598
00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:01.160
<v Speaker 5>Of it is that what David brought to it, and Chuck,

599
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:05.319
<v Speaker 5>I think readers will this is really two books in one.

600
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:08.880
<v Speaker 5>It is a book on Lee Harvey Oswald, and the

601
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.759
<v Speaker 5>reason it's a different kind of book on Oswald is

602
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.640
<v Speaker 5>it's about Oswald over an extended period of time, because

603
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:18.200
<v Speaker 5>most of what all of us have written about before

604
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:21.839
<v Speaker 5>is Oswald at a point in time, at like a slice,

605
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.279
<v Speaker 5>which is which is what the Warrant Commission did, and

606
00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:30.599
<v Speaker 5>slicing a person's personality and character apart is indeed cherry picking.

607
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.359
<v Speaker 5>I mean, whether you know that you're doing it intentionally,

608
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.839
<v Speaker 5>as Thorn Commission clearly did, or if you're doing it unintentionally,

609
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:40.279
<v Speaker 5>as I've done before in some of my writing, it's like,

610
00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:44.640
<v Speaker 5>you know, Oswald, here's the picture of Oswald, and you

611
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:47.559
<v Speaker 5>know that's that's all I'm interested in. There's no question

612
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:51.279
<v Speaker 5>of is that consistent with Oswald throughout his life or

613
00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.400
<v Speaker 5>is it not just take what's there, use it? But

614
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.559
<v Speaker 5>two thirds of the book is that kind of a book.

615
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.839
<v Speaker 5>It's it's an Oswell book. The last third of the

616
00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:06.920
<v Speaker 5>book is where David's work made a huge difference and

617
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:12.759
<v Speaker 5>where the leading work Matthew Smith described deserves a great

618
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:16.079
<v Speaker 5>deal of credit for this because he opened up a

619
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:17.799
<v Speaker 5>lead that nobody had.

620
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:20.279
<v Speaker 4>Ever found before or stood before.

621
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:23.720
<v Speaker 5>And which led to actually the final third of this

622
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:27.519
<v Speaker 5>book essentially following that lead, not knowing if it was

623
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.960
<v Speaker 5>real or not, and then have everything fall into place

624
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:33.960
<v Speaker 5>to say, Lee, it looks like it was real. I

625
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.960
<v Speaker 5>wish Matthew were still around to see where his lead

626
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:41.039
<v Speaker 5>had gone. But David's work for the final third of

627
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:44.960
<v Speaker 5>the book, which is a speculative scenario of what OSWA

628
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.640
<v Speaker 5>was doing in the couple of months before the assassination,

629
00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:54.319
<v Speaker 5>the week of the assassination, of the dayas assassination, really

630
00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:01.240
<v Speaker 5>relies on David's work of tracing out this lead that

631
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:04.519
<v Speaker 5>Matthew Smith had established in the first place at Redbird

632
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:10.680
<v Speaker 5>Airport right and adding in and understanding of the CIA

633
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:15.480
<v Speaker 5>and CI operations out of JM Wave and CIA contacts

634
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:17.759
<v Speaker 5>in New Orleans that we didn't even.

635
00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:18.599
<v Speaker 4>Know a decade ago.

636
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:21.680
<v Speaker 5>As a matter of fact, we didn't know some of

637
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:25.079
<v Speaker 5>the most key connections in New Orleans until two years

638
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:28.200
<v Speaker 5>ago while we were working on the book, and David

639
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:28.720
<v Speaker 5>found them.

640
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:31.720
<v Speaker 2>Right now, just for the listeners, real fast, Larry, you

641
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:34.359
<v Speaker 2>don't even get to New Orleans. This is the interesting

642
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:36.440
<v Speaker 2>to give an idea of what Larry's talking about regarding

643
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:37.920
<v Speaker 2>how long of a time period.

644
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:39.559
<v Speaker 3>They go over in this book.

645
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:41.920
<v Speaker 2>You don't get to New Orleans in this book until

646
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:46.000
<v Speaker 2>halfway through, Okay, literally, I mean I think it's almost

647
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:49.640
<v Speaker 2>exactly halfway through the book you land on New Orleans.

648
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.240
<v Speaker 3>I've never seen that before.

649
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.680
<v Speaker 2>New Orleans is almost like in the introduction to half

650
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:55.960
<v Speaker 2>of the people's books, right, it's like, hey, you know

651
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:57.839
<v Speaker 2>what before he was in Dallas, guess what he was

652
00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:01.680
<v Speaker 2>in New Orleans? And everybody does that, right. This is

653
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:06.240
<v Speaker 2>a slow burn building the entire sort of lifespan of

654
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:09.440
<v Speaker 2>this kid. And again I say this kid because look,

655
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm fifty two years old now I'm looking back at

656
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.880
<v Speaker 2>a guy who lived twenty four years all right. This

657
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.840
<v Speaker 2>is not an old man. This is not somebody who

658
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:22.039
<v Speaker 2>lived long as far as we know, Okay, And it's

659
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:27.199
<v Speaker 2>weird because people have built five six, eight hundred page

660
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.559
<v Speaker 2>books off of nineteen sixty two to sixty three, and

661
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:32.920
<v Speaker 2>then they mentioned a little bit of fifty nine fifty eight, right,

662
00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:34.199
<v Speaker 2>and that's it.

663
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:37.159
<v Speaker 3>That's all they talk about is a four year span.

664
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:42.559
<v Speaker 2>And you know, Kennedy's dead on Friday, Oswald's dead on Sunday,

665
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:43.679
<v Speaker 2>all right.

666
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:44.599
<v Speaker 3>I mean it's.

667
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:47.760
<v Speaker 2>Literally that fast, and they built eight hundred pages out

668
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:52.239
<v Speaker 2>of it. This is actually an examination which is different,

669
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.280
<v Speaker 2>very very different. I don't even know how to exactly

670
00:34:55.360 --> 00:35:00.119
<v Speaker 2>explain it. But again, I think David's David's style. And

671
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:02.199
<v Speaker 2>see in the last part of the book, which I

672
00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:05.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't finish yet, I'm going to get to the speculation.

673
00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:06.280
<v Speaker 2>I think we're gonna have to do a whole thing

674
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:11.760
<v Speaker 2>about the speculation itself. But the Redbird thing you've written

675
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:14.639
<v Speaker 2>about before, Larry, how much does that change?

676
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:19.760
<v Speaker 5>By the way, the Redbird thing actually is two things.

677
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.159
<v Speaker 5>One thing is it all goes back to to a

678
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:28.079
<v Speaker 5>fellow named January Ray January, and I've been I worked

679
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:32.679
<v Speaker 5>with that lead, actually with Matthew Smith himself before his

680
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:37.840
<v Speaker 5>death and after his death, because certain things January revealed

681
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.159
<v Speaker 5>he would not allow to be put into print until

682
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:45.480
<v Speaker 5>after he passed away, and then you know, then you

683
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:47.920
<v Speaker 5>had to take his information and you couldn't work it

684
00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:52.039
<v Speaker 5>with him. You had to reverse it, like verifying aircraft

685
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:57.480
<v Speaker 5>identity numbers. And the Redbird's story by itself probably has

686
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:02.920
<v Speaker 5>been in play for twenty years or more. But what

687
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:06.400
<v Speaker 5>David brought to it is it was always you know,

688
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:08.599
<v Speaker 5>could we confirm any parts of it?

689
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:11.559
<v Speaker 4>You know, he gave us Ray.

690
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:15.400
<v Speaker 5>January gave Matthew what he had seen, and then he

691
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.840
<v Speaker 5>passed away. How do you verify it? Well, amazingly enough,

692
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:26.880
<v Speaker 5>in David's work in GM wave and the people are

693
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:30.760
<v Speaker 5>working in projects in nineteen sixty three, you can actually

694
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:35.679
<v Speaker 5>identify the people that Ray January spoke to that he

695
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.920
<v Speaker 5>had no idea of who they really were other than

696
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:42.159
<v Speaker 5>they were coming coming to them from the CIA. That's

697
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.039
<v Speaker 5>just a kind of a subplot in all of this

698
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:50.599
<v Speaker 5>that developed on its own, with again, not like I

699
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:54.320
<v Speaker 5>said earlier, not looking, not having ind agenda, just kind

700
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.360
<v Speaker 5>of looking at it, and then at the end, go gee,

701
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.559
<v Speaker 5>it's amazing that this fell into place. I wasn't even

702
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:05.960
<v Speaker 5>looking for this because there are actually two independent stories

703
00:37:06.039 --> 00:37:08.599
<v Speaker 5>about two different aircraft at Redbird.

704
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:12.400
<v Speaker 4>One of them doesn't relate to Lee Harvey Oswold at all.

705
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:15.599
<v Speaker 5>One does, but both, when you can tie them together,

706
00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:19.440
<v Speaker 5>substantiate the credibility of Ray January.

707
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:20.079
<v Speaker 6>You know.

708
00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.440
<v Speaker 4>That's just this part of this whole thing.

709
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:25.960
<v Speaker 5>When when you get to a certain point, if you're lucky,

710
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.880
<v Speaker 5>all the pieces, the pieces that didn't fit before and

711
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:32.639
<v Speaker 5>weren't within the puzzle frame, it's like, oh, yeah, I

712
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:33.960
<v Speaker 5>see where they go now.

713
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, Which is interesting because I think twenty five to

714
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:39.480
<v Speaker 2>thirty years ago, I think it's the first time I

715
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:45.079
<v Speaker 2>heard about Captain January, okay, but it was so vague that.

716
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:46.039
<v Speaker 3>I didn't know what to do with it.

717
00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:48.400
<v Speaker 2>And then I read your article on it, and honestly, Larry,

718
00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:50.079
<v Speaker 2>this is one of the ones I was like, well,

719
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.039
<v Speaker 2>this is interesting, but I don't know what to do

720
00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:56.920
<v Speaker 2>with this. That's pretty much where where I left it,

721
00:37:57.039 --> 00:37:59.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, and.

722
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:01.719
<v Speaker 4>I did either at the time, it wasn't.

723
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:07.679
<v Speaker 5>It wasn't until well we got information from the from

724
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:13.039
<v Speaker 5>am world, you know, talk about document disclosures. We didn't

725
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 5>get those again until ten twelve years ago. And then

726
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:22.199
<v Speaker 5>the crypt busting, which we should refer to because David

727
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:24.760
<v Speaker 5>has been a big part of that with Bill Simpitch

728
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:27.280
<v Speaker 5>and others. We got the documents and we didn't know

729
00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:31.239
<v Speaker 5>who they were talking about until we could.

730
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:32.440
<v Speaker 4>Get the crypts determined.

731
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:35.800
<v Speaker 5>Once that got through, you know, I guess one of

732
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:37.920
<v Speaker 5>the things that illustrates it all to me is I

733
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:41.199
<v Speaker 5>go back to some of the first books I read

734
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:46.079
<v Speaker 5>about the CIA and Cuba, and it's like everything is mysterious,

735
00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:50.920
<v Speaker 5>everything is suspicious. But now in twenty twenty five, we're

736
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:54.039
<v Speaker 5>at the point where David can actually give you an

737
00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:55.920
<v Speaker 5>organization chart of.

738
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.239
<v Speaker 4>The jam wave station.

739
00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:00.000
<v Speaker 5>You know, when you got to that point, you really

740
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:01.559
<v Speaker 5>got some history you could work with.

741
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, So, David, what what would you say would be

742
00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:07.920
<v Speaker 2>the you know, is it the Cryptonyms project that advanced

743
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.719
<v Speaker 2>that work, like Larry's saying, or would you say there's

744
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:12.400
<v Speaker 2>other factors that helped with that.

745
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.719
<v Speaker 6>Well, it's more and more no data gets released, you know,

746
00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:21.400
<v Speaker 6>he's stopped. Like it's the pieces of the puzzle, the

747
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:25.159
<v Speaker 6>crips and the pseudonyms. You know, like what is who

748
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:29.760
<v Speaker 6>is am surf one? Well that's Frank Bartz. You know

749
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:33.239
<v Speaker 6>who's Frank Bartez. Oh he's the guy that met Lejave

750
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:37.159
<v Speaker 6>Oswald outside the courtroom. Oh, you know, so he's our cia,

751
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.320
<v Speaker 6>Yes he is, and you know and things like that.

752
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:44.119
<v Speaker 6>And who is he associating with? Well, his associate is

753
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:49.440
<v Speaker 6>so the Odio's uncle, you know usin greetat they hang

754
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:52.000
<v Speaker 6>together at Frank Bartz's house. Who do they hang with?

755
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:55.559
<v Speaker 6>Carlos bring Geer, Oh, the guy that no Oswald had

756
00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:59.159
<v Speaker 6>the fight with. Who else did they hang with? Carlos Carroga?

757
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:00.760
<v Speaker 6>You know, Carlos Car I was the guy that went

758
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:05.000
<v Speaker 6>to Oswald's apartment, you know, to question him and brought

759
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.760
<v Speaker 6>him some flyers for you know, to pass out. So

760
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:10.360
<v Speaker 6>you know, eventually the pieces start to come in once

761
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:14.800
<v Speaker 6>you know who these people are, right, So you know,

762
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:18.559
<v Speaker 6>as far as the Redbird Airports airport leads this, the

763
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:25.039
<v Speaker 6>two of them, one was Wayne January said, but that

764
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:30.360
<v Speaker 6>a colonel come air Force colonel from Florida and a

765
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:33.239
<v Speaker 6>Cuban came to check out on an airplane that they wanted

766
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:35.960
<v Speaker 6>to use. Didn't say what it was for it's going

767
00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:37.480
<v Speaker 6>to be I think it was the DC three C

768
00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:42.000
<v Speaker 6>forty seven, I think, So they came to check that out.

769
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.960
<v Speaker 6>So once you start looking at jam wave, who this

770
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:49.280
<v Speaker 6>colonel would have been and digging in you find out

771
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:53.000
<v Speaker 6>his name is Colonel Banni Chavez, you know, and he

772
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:55.599
<v Speaker 6>was good friends with David Morales and they used to

773
00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:58.800
<v Speaker 6>share a desk together at jam Wave in Miami and

774
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:01.360
<v Speaker 6>you know who the cube and be well, there's some

775
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:03.360
<v Speaker 6>clues that January gave us was that.

776
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:05.719
<v Speaker 3>She was the like.

777
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:09.559
<v Speaker 6>Chief of air Force, the Cuban Air Force for the

778
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:12.800
<v Speaker 6>Bay of Pigs. Now we didn't know all that way

779
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.800
<v Speaker 6>back then, do you no documents not being released, and

780
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:19.840
<v Speaker 6>we find out his name is you know, Banny Viafanya,

781
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:22.159
<v Speaker 6>you know. So now we know who that guy is,

782
00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:24.559
<v Speaker 6>you know who is he? He's started tracing that path down.

783
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:28.320
<v Speaker 6>We find out he's working for a commando's man bis.

784
00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:31.840
<v Speaker 6>He's out of JM Wave and working for David Moraleys

785
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:34.079
<v Speaker 6>you know, and he's the guy that ended up saying,

786
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:37.440
<v Speaker 6>you know, you know on Thursday said you know, Wayne,

787
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:39.679
<v Speaker 6>he says, what's going to happen is they're going to

788
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.760
<v Speaker 6>kill your president on Friday.

789
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:42.559
<v Speaker 3>You know.

790
00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:46.519
<v Speaker 6>So we actually have that report. So a lot of

791
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:49.360
<v Speaker 6>clues that you know, come out of that whole Redbird Airport.

792
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:54.800
<v Speaker 6>The second piece is, you know, uh, there was a

793
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:57.599
<v Speaker 6>man and a woman in a car and somebody sitting

794
00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:01.719
<v Speaker 6>in the back seat that January identify. I said, it

795
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:05.000
<v Speaker 6>looks like learvey oswell to me, you know so, and

796
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:08.159
<v Speaker 6>they wanted to rent a small little Sesna to get

797
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:13.320
<v Speaker 6>to Mexico. In January thought it was I thought, they're

798
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:16.400
<v Speaker 6>actually going to try and hijacket and they wanted him

799
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:18.320
<v Speaker 6>to fly it there. And he just says, no, no way,

800
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 6>no way am I doing this. I mean, so there's

801
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:24.559
<v Speaker 6>a lot of details like that. Who would those people be,

802
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:27.559
<v Speaker 6>you know, things like that. Came up with some possibilities

803
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:30.599
<v Speaker 6>and things. But that's what, you know, the crips and

804
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:33.440
<v Speaker 6>the people and you know, the whole looking at the

805
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:37.719
<v Speaker 6>big projects, how it all comes together, if that makes sense.

806
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:39.920
<v Speaker 6>But I'm not going down too far a rabbit hole here.

807
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:43.360
<v Speaker 2>No, but there's a lot of action here which involves

808
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:47.079
<v Speaker 2>the people that have always been suspected, right. It ties

809
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:49.599
<v Speaker 2>to the Bay Pigs, It ties to those people. It

810
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:54.519
<v Speaker 2>ties to the Castro pro Castro anti groups, different ones,

811
00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:56.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, whether it's the d r U or it's

812
00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:01.360
<v Speaker 2>the you know however they described the Cuban Directorate, you

813
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:03.599
<v Speaker 2>know whatever, and then you have this other group.

814
00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:05.679
<v Speaker 3>Okay, all this stuff comes.

815
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:08.559
<v Speaker 2>Together around this guy who's supposed to be nobody, Lee

816
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Arvy Oswald. You know, why is he involved in all this?

817
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.360
<v Speaker 2>And that's the big question that people have had for

818
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:18.920
<v Speaker 2>a long time. But it's always been because there's all

819
00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:21.840
<v Speaker 2>these unidentified people. We know who Sylvia Odio is, we

820
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:24.480
<v Speaker 2>know who her family is, we know who her uncle is.

821
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.559
<v Speaker 2>They're naturally part of this situation. But then comes all

822
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:32.440
<v Speaker 2>these other individuals, right, the one weird visit everybody talks about,

823
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:35.440
<v Speaker 2>but it goes beyond that, and it always has. But

824
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:38.880
<v Speaker 2>we didn't know who these people were. That one guy says, look,

825
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:40.679
<v Speaker 2>he looks like a Cuban. The other guy says, this

826
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:43.119
<v Speaker 2>guy looks like a white guy. I don't trust this guy.

827
00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:46.480
<v Speaker 2>This guy looks like he's military, back and forth everything.

828
00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:50.280
<v Speaker 2>And you got a loudmouth like Berengeart, right, who is

829
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:53.719
<v Speaker 2>in on some of this stuff too, But he's naturally

830
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:59.079
<v Speaker 2>involved because he's anti Castro. And why is Learvy Oswald

831
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:02.920
<v Speaker 2>fighting seeming staged fight? A lot of people said, you know,

832
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.599
<v Speaker 2>in the street in New Orleans, which get people a

833
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:08.320
<v Speaker 2>hint about that a little bit like about that incident itself,

834
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:11.559
<v Speaker 2>which we've all heard about a million times. H if

835
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:13.559
<v Speaker 2>you ever study downs Well at all. I mean, just

836
00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:14.599
<v Speaker 2>talk about that a little bit.

837
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:19.280
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I think one of the things and that when

838
00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:23.159
<v Speaker 5>that's considered all by itself, you know, it's you know,

839
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:26.400
<v Speaker 5>it's one thing like this is really could this be coincidence?

840
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:30.800
<v Speaker 5>Obviously somebody is making this happen, you know what, what's

841
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.119
<v Speaker 5>the net result of this? It?

842
00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:34.960
<v Speaker 4>You know, But what.

843
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:38.320
<v Speaker 5>Emerges from a longer look at Lee Harvey Oswell is

844
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:43.119
<v Speaker 5>in terms of Oswall's own personal agenda, it's it's quite

845
00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:47.199
<v Speaker 5>consistent that there's nothing really that strange about the fact

846
00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:50.320
<v Speaker 5>Lee Harvey Oswald, by that point in time, for some

847
00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:54.400
<v Speaker 5>four months, even before he had left Dallas, had started

848
00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:58.000
<v Speaker 5>communicating with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, had actually

849
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:02.599
<v Speaker 5>started leafleting in Dallas UH and been chased off by

850
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:04.039
<v Speaker 5>police in Dallas.

851
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:05.760
<v Speaker 4>Through a department store downtown Dallas.

852
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:08.679
<v Speaker 5>It's not new for Lee Harvey oswel to do this.

853
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:12.599
<v Speaker 5>He had he had he had been leafleting near the docks, UH,

854
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:16.039
<v Speaker 5>near an aircraft carrier in New Orleans before this. So

855
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:20.039
<v Speaker 5>the fact that he's out there leafleting for Cuba is

856
00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:24.480
<v Speaker 5>totally consistent. But also you can see from his own

857
00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:27.800
<v Speaker 5>writing when he's he's been writing the fair play for

858
00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:31.519
<v Speaker 5>Cuba Committee and trying to present himself as a street activist,

859
00:45:32.039 --> 00:45:35.280
<v Speaker 5>but it's really kind of not working for him because

860
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:39.159
<v Speaker 5>you know, he gets chased off of places nobody's paying attention.

861
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:39.599
<v Speaker 3>Well.

862
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:43.360
<v Speaker 5>Oswell's a really creative guy, and we see from David's

863
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:47.199
<v Speaker 5>work and looking at names in Oswell's notebook, Oswall was

864
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:50.320
<v Speaker 5>starting to do is his homework in New Orleans. He

865
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:57.119
<v Speaker 5>was inquiring into Cuban groups, Cuban stores, TV and radio outlets.

866
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:01.400
<v Speaker 5>Oswell was clearly working towards Okay, I've got to make

867
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.639
<v Speaker 5>if I'm going to do this and I'm going to

868
00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:06.800
<v Speaker 5>make a name for myself, I need to do something

869
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:07.800
<v Speaker 5>more sensational.

870
00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:10.159
<v Speaker 4>So when we get up to the time of the.

871
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:16.440
<v Speaker 5>Street leafleting, we know Oswald already knows.

872
00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:17.239
<v Speaker 4>The local media.

873
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:20.400
<v Speaker 5>Oswell will go on for the next few weeks to

874
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:22.920
<v Speaker 5>be kind of a darling of the local media and

875
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:26.599
<v Speaker 5>be on radio and TV. There's every reason to spec

876
00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:29.920
<v Speaker 5>that Oswell because he went to the trouble of actually

877
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.760
<v Speaker 5>taking some of his limited funds to hire a couple

878
00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:36.800
<v Speaker 5>of guys to leaflet with him, and everybody's got to

879
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:38.800
<v Speaker 5>be there in a white shirt and a tie and

880
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:41.360
<v Speaker 5>look real, you know, straight make a big deal out

881
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:45.639
<v Speaker 5>of this. There's no surprise that the TV crew shows up,

882
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:50.159
<v Speaker 5>because it's speculative. But of course Oz will probably call

883
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:52.400
<v Speaker 5>them and said, I'm gonna be here, and I'm you know,

884
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:54.480
<v Speaker 5>something important is happening downtown today.

885
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:55.400
<v Speaker 4>You need to cover it.

886
00:46:55.960 --> 00:46:59.199
<v Speaker 5>And so he's already set bring gear up because bring

887
00:46:59.239 --> 00:47:03.079
<v Speaker 5>gear as already they've already been questioning whether Oswald is

888
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:07.360
<v Speaker 5>really pro or anti Castro Bringers place is only.

889
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:08.079
<v Speaker 4>A few blocks away.

890
00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:10.519
<v Speaker 5>As soon as he the word gets to him, you know,

891
00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:13.760
<v Speaker 5>you can just imagine Osweald absolutely knows what is going

892
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:17.039
<v Speaker 5>to happen. And when Carlos shows up, what does he say?

893
00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:20.880
<v Speaker 4>Hit me? You know, like, okay, we need to add

894
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:22.440
<v Speaker 4>some drama to this whole thing.

895
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:26.079
<v Speaker 5>And I will say in the book, we demonstrate that

896
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:31.000
<v Speaker 5>Oswald can be something of a drama queen. Oswald knows

897
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:33.840
<v Speaker 5>how to get attention. And when you just cherry pick

898
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:37.639
<v Speaker 5>that and go, oh, well here and there, and when

899
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:39.519
<v Speaker 5>you look at the picture all together, it is not

900
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:44.159
<v Speaker 5>unusual to find Oswald doing dramatic things to draw attention

901
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:44.920
<v Speaker 5>to himself.

902
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:48.119
<v Speaker 4>But when he does, he obviously.

903
00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:52.440
<v Speaker 5>Always draws attention to himself and admits it, which really

904
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:55.320
<v Speaker 5>raises the big question, why would he do the most

905
00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:58.480
<v Speaker 5>sensational thing in the world in Dallas and then deny

906
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:01.400
<v Speaker 5>it like no, not me, have no idea what you're

907
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.360
<v Speaker 5>talking about, right, that long wind answer, Chuck.

908
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:05.159
<v Speaker 3>No, no problem.

909
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:07.679
<v Speaker 2>But David, I want you to talk about this because

910
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:11.519
<v Speaker 2>to me, it's the wildest thing. Because Oswald, as far

911
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:14.079
<v Speaker 2>as I understand from anybody who personally knew him, not

912
00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:16.199
<v Speaker 2>a guy who likes to spend money. And yet yeah,

913
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:18.440
<v Speaker 2>he goes and hires temporary guys to help him hand

914
00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:20.880
<v Speaker 2>out this stuff. He puts this on on the street.

915
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Now again, perspective nineteen sixty you know, nineteen sixties America. Okay,

916
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:28.800
<v Speaker 2>you got a camera out there, TV station out there

917
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:30.760
<v Speaker 2>that's going to travel around the neighborhood.

918
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:31.920
<v Speaker 3>Hey, hey there's TV. There's TV.

919
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:34.159
<v Speaker 2>Something must be happening because it was a big deal.

920
00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:36.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, nowadays see a TV you know, they show

921
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:38.639
<v Speaker 2>up in their own cars and they hold up a

922
00:48:38.679 --> 00:48:43.320
<v Speaker 2>selfie stick and record off a cell phone. Okay, but

923
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:46.079
<v Speaker 2>back then you needed a crew. A van showed up,

924
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:49.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, come on, and there's clearly film of this

925
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:53.079
<v Speaker 2>right before. Right, so you know, what are your thoughts

926
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.360
<v Speaker 2>on that? Because it was always seeing in isolation? Isn't

927
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:59.079
<v Speaker 2>this strange? Okay, it looks stage blah blah. But the

928
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:02.639
<v Speaker 2>fact that you know, again, his personality not somebody who

929
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:05.760
<v Speaker 2>likes to part with money, uh, spending the money and

930
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:08.920
<v Speaker 2>putting this effort in to create this thing that he

931
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:11.960
<v Speaker 2>knows is going to cause the star clearly to provoke

932
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.039
<v Speaker 2>bearing gear. Whether bearing gear is tipped off or not

933
00:49:14.679 --> 00:49:17.639
<v Speaker 2>is irrelevant. He's gonna find out and he's gonna get

934
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:20.599
<v Speaker 2>himself involved. I mean, it's just like a guarantee almost.

935
00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:23.199
<v Speaker 2>He set it up this way, and I think Oswald

936
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:24.119
<v Speaker 2>set it up this way.

937
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:24.960
<v Speaker 3>But what do you think?

938
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.960
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well you have to go back just a little bit.

939
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:34.039
<v Speaker 6>Oswald again. What he wanted to get to Cuba. To

940
00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:35.679
<v Speaker 6>get to Cuba, you have to he wanted to learn

941
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:39.320
<v Speaker 6>how to speak Spanish. Right, No, so he actually went

942
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:44.239
<v Speaker 6>to h sorry guys, no, no, take take a minute.

943
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:45.719
<v Speaker 2>If you need to catch your breath, no, put no

944
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.280
<v Speaker 2>problem there. But yeah, but but yeah, obviously he needs

945
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:50.920
<v Speaker 2>to know how to speak Spanish if he wants to

946
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:52.400
<v Speaker 2>go to Cuba and operate there at all.

947
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:53.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

948
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:58.159
<v Speaker 6>Right, So who did he? He approached Honesto Rodriguez at

949
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:01.400
<v Speaker 6>the Modern School of Lag which is the Burlett School,

950
00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:03.639
<v Speaker 6>and he wanted to learn how to speak Spanish there,

951
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:07.760
<v Speaker 6>so he approached Onsto and he says, hey, I learn

952
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:11.639
<v Speaker 6>how to speak Spanish. And then Oswald started speaking in

953
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:15.639
<v Speaker 6>Russian quite a bit, and Onsto said, yeah, my Russian

954
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:18.239
<v Speaker 6>is okay, but it's not as good as Oswald's. I

955
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:23.039
<v Speaker 6>couldn't keep up, so I just you know, stopped talking

956
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:25.840
<v Speaker 6>to him there. But then Oswald asked him and says, so,

957
00:50:26.679 --> 00:50:30.719
<v Speaker 6>what are the who the anti Castro Cubans around? Who

958
00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:35.400
<v Speaker 6>can I talk to? So Honesto gave him various addresses.

959
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, fair enough, No no problem, take your time, take

960
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:42.400
<v Speaker 2>a time, because this is interesting. He's asking this guy,

961
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:44.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, look, I want to find the anti Castro

962
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Cuban people. Meanwhile he's out there openly, uh you know,

963
00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:50.599
<v Speaker 2>going going and leafletting.

964
00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:52.920
<v Speaker 3>Shortly thereafter, right, yeah.

965
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:56.559
<v Speaker 6>He actually actually gave him his friend, Colin Springier was

966
00:50:56.599 --> 00:51:00.440
<v Speaker 6>his best, good buddy, you know, his addresses. Go see

967
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:04.400
<v Speaker 6>Carlos here and talk to him, you know, And that's

968
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:08.079
<v Speaker 6>when Oswald went to go see Brigier and brought him,

969
00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:12.159
<v Speaker 6>you know, his marine manual on you know, out of fight.

970
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is the exchange where he gives him the

971
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:18.840
<v Speaker 2>basic you know, his his marine handbook and you know,

972
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:21.400
<v Speaker 2>as a pledge, I want to join the anti Castro thing.

973
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:26.760
<v Speaker 2>And then yeah, go ahead, that's all right, David, take

974
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:29.000
<v Speaker 2>you take your time, take your time. I understand, believe me.

975
00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:31.719
<v Speaker 2>I've had to close my Micael more than once lately.

976
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:35.360
<v Speaker 2>It's been a thing. But uh yeah, look, so this

977
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:35.760
<v Speaker 2>is good.

978
00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:44.719
<v Speaker 6>Yeah. So Nesto and Carlos very good friends. And Nesto

979
00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:51.119
<v Speaker 6>where this becomes key is that his brother is Emilio Rodriguez.

980
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:55.159
<v Speaker 6>This is key because Emilio Rodriguez is a high level

981
00:51:55.440 --> 00:52:00.119
<v Speaker 6>CIA officer out of JM Wave. So you know, brother's talk,

982
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:05.039
<v Speaker 6>you know, So Emilio, he is very close to the

983
00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:08.800
<v Speaker 6>same names. Again, David Morales. Morales used to be his boss,

984
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:13.480
<v Speaker 6>and when Emilio was in Havana, you know, prior to

985
00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:21.719
<v Speaker 6>the Bay of Pigs and Emilio's Who's larry to save me.

986
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:27.199
<v Speaker 6>Amelia was also close to Tony Schwarza, who was also

987
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.559
<v Speaker 6>another major player at jam Wave, in charge of all

988
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:35.360
<v Speaker 6>the amots. So this is a really close connection as

989
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.800
<v Speaker 6>to how Oswald was seen by certain people at jam

990
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:46.519
<v Speaker 6>Waves that you know through Honesto, and so Esto was

991
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:49.039
<v Speaker 6>also close, you know, go back a little bit. He

992
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:53.360
<v Speaker 6>was kind of close to uh guy Banister because Honesto

993
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:58.039
<v Speaker 6>used to run the CRC Cuban Revolutionary Console and he

994
00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:01.360
<v Speaker 6>used to rent the office at five forty four Camp Street.

995
00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:07.800
<v Speaker 6>This is our nest though until nineteen sixty two. So

996
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:16.920
<v Speaker 6>if you remember, Oswald had Carlos close Lamont Flyers right

997
00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:20.440
<v Speaker 6>with the five forty four Camp Street.

998
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:23.199
<v Speaker 2>Right, So this is the Camp Street thing, the connection

999
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:24.599
<v Speaker 2>to take take him inute, to take him minute, This

1000
00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:28.400
<v Speaker 2>is the Camp Street connection. And also what strikes me

1001
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:31.119
<v Speaker 2>at this point is that some of the random, seemingly

1002
00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:34.639
<v Speaker 2>random names to come out of Dean Andrews's mouth, okay,

1003
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:38.880
<v Speaker 2>are right there or close to a bunch of people

1004
00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:42.760
<v Speaker 2>that we now know were connected to these things, which

1005
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:45.000
<v Speaker 2>is weird because Andrews is like, look, I just gave

1006
00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:47.679
<v Speaker 2>him any names I could come up with, but these

1007
00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:52.320
<v Speaker 2>are probably real names, which is really strange and brings

1008
00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:58.239
<v Speaker 2>this whole nexus back around, right. You know, was good

1009
00:53:58.239 --> 00:53:59.039
<v Speaker 2>Guy Banister and.

1010
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:03.199
<v Speaker 6>Stressed connection is that Esto used to have the keys

1011
00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:07.840
<v Speaker 6>to five forty four Camp Street right in. Oswald at

1012
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:12.360
<v Speaker 6>one time told well Uh in correspondence that he had

1013
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:15.480
<v Speaker 6>an office that he used for a few days and

1014
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:17.239
<v Speaker 6>that would have been five to forty four Camp Street.

1015
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:21.159
<v Speaker 6>So shows a little bit closer connection between Esto and

1016
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:29.440
<v Speaker 6>Oswald because Esto had the keys even after you know,

1017
00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:34.199
<v Speaker 6>they no longer paid rent there. So you know, again

1018
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:37.719
<v Speaker 6>Essa was close to Banister, he admitted, yeah, pianist, I

1019
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:39.639
<v Speaker 6>knew all those guys that were close to me. You

1020
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:43.960
<v Speaker 6>also know new George Lincoln Rockwell, you Knowessa was a

1021
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:45.760
<v Speaker 6>bit of a Nazi if you if you want to

1022
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:51.960
<v Speaker 6>say so, I mean that's it. Again. Esto was close

1023
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:56.280
<v Speaker 6>to Frank Bartes. You know, they'd all meet at his

1024
00:54:56.360 --> 00:55:02.239
<v Speaker 6>house close to so via Odio's uncle. So you can

1025
00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:07.960
<v Speaker 6>see how Odeo's visitors Oswald and the two guys that

1026
00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:11.079
<v Speaker 6>went there, where they got their information from they get

1027
00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:11.840
<v Speaker 6>from these guys.

1028
00:55:12.039 --> 00:55:14.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, now it makes sense that they had this idea

1029
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:17.000
<v Speaker 2>and this presentation about you know, we get your uncle

1030
00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:20.440
<v Speaker 2>involved here, we want you involved all this kind of thing,

1031
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:24.440
<v Speaker 2>and they meanwhile they're talking about this guy Oswald, and

1032
00:55:25.599 --> 00:55:28.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, it seems to come out of nowhere until

1033
00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:31.679
<v Speaker 2>you realize that it makes sense in that nexus.

1034
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:32.039
<v Speaker 3>Right.

1035
00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:39.719
<v Speaker 6>Well, anyway, Larry, that seemed to have got lost.

1036
00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:43.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Larry, are you with us still? Let's see I

1037
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:47.199
<v Speaker 2>might he may have dropped off somehow. Oh boy, I'm

1038
00:55:47.199 --> 00:55:50.679
<v Speaker 2>sorry about that. So David, I'll tell you what. I'll

1039
00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:53.719
<v Speaker 2>complete this with you if you want, or we could

1040
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:55.320
<v Speaker 2>try and take a break and see if we can

1041
00:55:55.400 --> 00:55:59.079
<v Speaker 2>catch Larry again. But gee, I don't see him there.

1042
00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:02.400
<v Speaker 2>Let's see what we can put him back in real fast? Okay, yes,

1043
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:03.920
<v Speaker 2>see if you're pull him back in and I'll finish

1044
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:07.159
<v Speaker 2>up a few things. Yes, if you don't mind, you

1045
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:09.719
<v Speaker 2>go go go ahead and continue about this nexus though,

1046
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:11.039
<v Speaker 2>if you don't mind, and I'll see if I can

1047
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:11.800
<v Speaker 2>grab Larry again.

1048
00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:13.679
<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

1049
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:16.599
<v Speaker 6>So a lot of what's kind of new to us

1050
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:20.679
<v Speaker 6>is that Sylvia Audio's uncle was actually a CIA asset,

1051
00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:25.760
<v Speaker 6>and his case officer was Carl Trenton, who worked out

1052
00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:30.159
<v Speaker 6>of the Cuban desk at headquarters. They wanted him to

1053
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:34.760
<v Speaker 6>be a cutout, obviously, Queta no sy the Audio's uncle

1054
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:36.480
<v Speaker 6>to be a cutout.

1055
00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:38.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there are Larry. Great.

1056
00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:40.519
<v Speaker 2>I pulled you back in because I somehow lost you

1057
00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:41.400
<v Speaker 2>there I don't know why.

1058
00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:46.639
<v Speaker 5>Uh, it's my internet is down.

1059
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:50.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, so what was my internet?

1060
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:51.199
<v Speaker 4>Basically?

1061
00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:52.480
<v Speaker 3>All right, well just came back.

1062
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:54.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, we'll take a minute here and let let David

1063
00:56:54.719 --> 00:56:58.119
<v Speaker 2>continue with he's talking about the Nexus in New Orleans, uh,

1064
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:00.960
<v Speaker 2>and how it expanded and started to encompass a lot

1065
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:03.280
<v Speaker 2>of known names. But just mute out for a few

1066
00:57:03.280 --> 00:57:05.000
<v Speaker 2>minutes here and let it build up a little strength

1067
00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:07.639
<v Speaker 2>and we'll bring you back into the conversation to close

1068
00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:10.079
<v Speaker 2>this out. But David, sorry about the interruption to what

1069
00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:13.480
<v Speaker 2>you were talking about there. Back to the odio situation, right,

1070
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:15.880
<v Speaker 2>and who it is was being sort of pulled into

1071
00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:16.559
<v Speaker 2>this go ahead.

1072
00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:21.960
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, her uncle, Augustine gree Todd, was actually a CIA asset.

1073
00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:27.079
<v Speaker 6>It's got a huge too one file yead A case

1074
00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:30.719
<v Speaker 6>officer Collin Trenton worked out of the Cuban Desk Special

1075
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:40.880
<v Speaker 6>Affairs staff, using him to recruit his uncle out of Canada.

1076
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:47.960
<v Speaker 6>So he ended up becoming CI asked asset just up

1077
00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:53.480
<v Speaker 6>until just before eleven sixty three, which I find very interesting.

1078
00:57:55.760 --> 00:58:01.800
<v Speaker 6>Trent what else about gree Todd? Yeah, Also he was

1079
00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:04.320
<v Speaker 6>close to Tony Verona. I don't know if you remember

1080
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:06.360
<v Speaker 6>who Tony Verona was He was one of the original

1081
00:58:07.159 --> 00:58:11.639
<v Speaker 6>guys that were going to assassinate Castro, along with Johnny Roselli,

1082
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:14.480
<v Speaker 6>Bill Harvey and that crew he had. You know, he

1083
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:17.000
<v Speaker 6>was the guy that was gonna ring the pills to

1084
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:21.440
<v Speaker 6>have Castro assassinated. He was that close to Tony vveronavver

1085
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.679
<v Speaker 6>own estate at his house on eleven, fourteen sixty three.

1086
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:26.360
<v Speaker 6>You know, it's just to show you how close these

1087
00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:29.480
<v Speaker 6>guys were, right, You know, these guys weren't inconsequential. They

1088
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:34.280
<v Speaker 6>were connected, They knew people, they knew no a lot

1089
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:37.800
<v Speaker 6>of the names that were surfaced over the years as

1090
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:40.079
<v Speaker 6>possibilities in the assassination.

1091
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, well, and again, all of them tying together around

1092
00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:48.400
<v Speaker 2>this one particular location and around this particular time period

1093
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:51.360
<v Speaker 2>from the summer of nineteen sixty three into the fall

1094
00:58:51.960 --> 00:58:54.079
<v Speaker 2>and then at the end of the fall is the assassination.

1095
00:58:54.920 --> 00:58:57.679
<v Speaker 6>Yeah. I mean, if you look at Sylvia Odio's uncle

1096
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:02.639
<v Speaker 6>was at Oswald's court appearance, along with you know, bring Gear,

1097
00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:07.440
<v Speaker 6>Frank bartz On, Aesto Rodriguez. All these people were there

1098
00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:13.159
<v Speaker 6>in court. They wanted to see no Oswald, no in court,

1099
00:59:13.239 --> 00:59:16.719
<v Speaker 6>you know, so, which is amazing I think right, So

1100
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:20.320
<v Speaker 6>they all knew who Oswald was and so he was

1101
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:22.119
<v Speaker 6>no secret there to all these people.

1102
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.800
<v Speaker 2>So one thing that's undeniable anyway is this idiocy that

1103
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:27.679
<v Speaker 2>has always been put out by the CIA. You know,

1104
00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:30.800
<v Speaker 2>we had no idea who he was, right like that.

1105
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:35.920
<v Speaker 2>That's that's garbage. That's for sure. Now, whether that means

1106
00:59:35.960 --> 00:59:39.559
<v Speaker 2>anything or not as to you know, whether he is

1107
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:42.239
<v Speaker 2>actually the assassin, I don't even want to get into

1108
00:59:42.239 --> 00:59:45.800
<v Speaker 2>that question. We're just studying this guy and his movements

1109
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:48.119
<v Speaker 2>and who he's around and who he's connected to here,

1110
00:59:49.159 --> 00:59:52.159
<v Speaker 2>and you can draw your own conclusions from it.

1111
00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:55.079
<v Speaker 3>But it's it's too much to just be a coincidence.

1112
00:59:55.639 --> 00:59:56.599
<v Speaker 3>It's just that simple.

1113
00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Larry, I kind of want to go, do you for

1114
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:03.320
<v Speaker 2>a sort of a final word on this and sort

1115
01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:05.159
<v Speaker 2>of close this out if your internet is strong enough

1116
01:00:05.159 --> 01:00:07.519
<v Speaker 2>and if you're feeling up to it, what do you

1117
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:11.360
<v Speaker 2>think is the key important thing that is different about

1118
01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:14.199
<v Speaker 2>this book? Because as I said, I I've never seen

1119
01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:17.719
<v Speaker 2>one constructed this way. I've never seen the the time

1120
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:21.519
<v Speaker 2>taken on Oswald that's been taken here, and the breakdowns,

1121
01:00:21.559 --> 01:00:24.480
<v Speaker 2>the sections, the way they're laid out also never been

1122
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:28.599
<v Speaker 2>done before. You know, for instance, one one chapter, I

1123
01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:32.039
<v Speaker 2>found it kind of ironic Oswald and the CIA. Uh

1124
01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:34.840
<v Speaker 2>And I remember reading a book by that title some

1125
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:40.360
<v Speaker 2>years ago that I had trouble with. Anyway, I don't

1126
01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:43.400
<v Speaker 2>have trouble with your chapter anyhow, Larry, how would you

1127
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:44.039
<v Speaker 2>break this down?

1128
01:00:44.239 --> 01:00:47.199
<v Speaker 5>I think I think the big difference is that we

1129
01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:54.360
<v Speaker 5>have all me included, Okay, looked at Oswald as a tool.

1130
01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:59.480
<v Speaker 4>You know, as something that's that is being used.

1131
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:03.960
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that doesn't mean that Oswald was not being used,

1132
01:01:04.199 --> 01:01:06.599
<v Speaker 5>but it doesn't mean that he was being used wittingly.

1133
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:09.840
<v Speaker 5>And I don't think we've often gone far enough back

1134
01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:11.960
<v Speaker 5>in the time as we did in the book to

1135
01:01:12.039 --> 01:01:15.719
<v Speaker 5>go what's the real Oswald? What are his interests? What

1136
01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:19.159
<v Speaker 5>are his world views? Is he just taking orders from somebody?

1137
01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:19.840
<v Speaker 4>You know?

1138
01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:23.400
<v Speaker 5>We see him in all these different interesting situations that

1139
01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:28.400
<v Speaker 5>you know, did half a dozen different agencies contact him

1140
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.000
<v Speaker 5>at different times and give him different orders? And he

1141
01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:35.480
<v Speaker 5>just willingly shifts from one agenda to another agenda. Whatever

1142
01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:37.719
<v Speaker 5>anybody is selling him to do this week, he does,

1143
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:40.480
<v Speaker 5>even if it, even if it seems to be in conflict,

1144
01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:45.800
<v Speaker 5>like he just is a puppet. But when you look

1145
01:01:45.800 --> 01:01:49.119
<v Speaker 5>at his life history and his character and his personality.

1146
01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:53.000
<v Speaker 5>A couple of things really stand out from his teenage

1147
01:01:53.079 --> 01:01:57.159
<v Speaker 5>years on, from his school years on. Is one thing

1148
01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:01.840
<v Speaker 5>that stands out is Oswald never willingly took orders from anybody.

1149
01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:06.679
<v Speaker 5>There's nobody that knew him or ever would offer testimony

1150
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:09.880
<v Speaker 5>that he was an order taker that would just blindly

1151
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:12.199
<v Speaker 5>follow instructions.

1152
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:13.760
<v Speaker 4>That's not Lee Harvey Oswall See.

1153
01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:14.599
<v Speaker 3>That's a key thing.

1154
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:15.159
<v Speaker 8>Also.

1155
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but hang on, Larry, that's a key thing because

1156
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:21.159
<v Speaker 2>whether you trust Ruth Paine or not, she makes that case,

1157
01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:24.400
<v Speaker 2>whether you trust her his childhood friends and what.

1158
01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:26.159
<v Speaker 3>That means he should they make that case.

1159
01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:29.199
<v Speaker 2>His own mother comes out and says, look, I had

1160
01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:30.719
<v Speaker 2>problems with him. I couldn't get him to, you know,

1161
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:31.440
<v Speaker 2>do this or that.

1162
01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:32.239
<v Speaker 3>He's played.

1163
01:02:32.280 --> 01:02:35.360
<v Speaker 2>He's a true at New York City not an easy

1164
01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:38.599
<v Speaker 2>place to be a truant, by the way, a lot

1165
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:39.280
<v Speaker 2>of things going on.

1166
01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:40.440
<v Speaker 3>This is not somebody who.

1167
01:02:40.400 --> 01:02:45.119
<v Speaker 2>Just comports with things because he's told he doesn't take orders. Well,

1168
01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:48.519
<v Speaker 2>you got problems in the Marine Corps, Larry. I mean

1169
01:02:48.719 --> 01:02:50.360
<v Speaker 2>we know that from his record, right.

1170
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:53.800
<v Speaker 5>But I think one of the most strike things that

1171
01:02:54.159 --> 01:02:56.960
<v Speaker 5>and of course you've talked with her institute of its

1172
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:00.320
<v Speaker 5>and we just have an immense amount of background from

1173
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:04.960
<v Speaker 5>Tenevitz that didn't get used correctly. Okay, but Oswell may

1174
01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:08.280
<v Speaker 5>be the only person in the world, certainly the only American,

1175
01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:11.119
<v Speaker 5>but maybe even the only one in the Soviet Union

1176
01:03:11.320 --> 01:03:16.519
<v Speaker 5>whoever staged a workstopage personal strike in a Russian factory.

1177
01:03:17.239 --> 01:03:20.000
<v Speaker 5>I mean, this is someone who when he became fed

1178
01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:25.480
<v Speaker 5>up with a bureaucracy in the factory, he literally stopped working.

1179
01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:30.159
<v Speaker 5>It's like, you know, I'm on strike. And his supervisor,

1180
01:03:30.199 --> 01:03:32.440
<v Speaker 5>who was actually a close friend and he hung out

1181
01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:35.599
<v Speaker 5>with the family and his girls and everything, it's making

1182
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:36.800
<v Speaker 5>him look really bad.

1183
01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:38.320
<v Speaker 4>And Oswell is.

1184
01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:41.280
<v Speaker 5>Just, you know, he's good about principle and he's always

1185
01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:44.320
<v Speaker 5>about principle and what he thinks is right, you know.

1186
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:47.800
<v Speaker 4>And so just another example of no.

1187
01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:52.320
<v Speaker 5>If Oswell is in sync with you, he can be

1188
01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:55.320
<v Speaker 5>you know, if you agree with his views and whatever.

1189
01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:58.840
<v Speaker 4>He talks to you, he's friends with you. He can

1190
01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:01.039
<v Speaker 4>be a great guy. If you're not, he's not.

1191
01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:05.480
<v Speaker 5>And the thing about that is his world views from

1192
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:07.880
<v Speaker 5>his teen years when he writes the Young.

1193
01:04:07.800 --> 01:04:12.320
<v Speaker 4>Socialist Federation on are the same. They don't change.

1194
01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:16.639
<v Speaker 5>He's Oswald's view of the world is all about economic justice,

1195
01:04:17.239 --> 01:04:21.599
<v Speaker 5>racial justice. Something he's probably never gonna find, but he's

1196
01:04:21.599 --> 01:04:24.519
<v Speaker 5>going to go looking for it. And that kind of

1197
01:04:24.519 --> 01:04:28.400
<v Speaker 5>screams out of his real personal history that A doesn't

1198
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:31.159
<v Speaker 5>take orders B. He's got a view of what he's

1199
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:34.000
<v Speaker 5>looking for, and see, he would just keep looking for

1200
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:37.000
<v Speaker 5>it until he finds it, even admitting to a friend

1201
01:04:37.079 --> 01:04:40.000
<v Speaker 5>like de Mornshield that he wrote realizes he may never

1202
01:04:40.039 --> 01:04:40.559
<v Speaker 5>find it.

1203
01:04:40.519 --> 01:04:41.679
<v Speaker 4>But he's going to keep looking.

1204
01:04:42.719 --> 01:04:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Which is an interesting perspective because it's always been like, well,

1205
01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:48.119
<v Speaker 2>he was used this way, he was used that way,

1206
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:50.639
<v Speaker 2>and that doesn't mean that he wasn't because you could

1207
01:04:50.679 --> 01:04:52.679
<v Speaker 2>just take a guy like this and sort of direct

1208
01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:56.480
<v Speaker 2>him with a prediction about which way he's going to go.

1209
01:04:57.559 --> 01:05:00.000
<v Speaker 2>And we talked about that before, about the use of ass.

1210
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:01.800
<v Speaker 2>That's right, some mad sets. You meet with them, you

1211
01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:04.320
<v Speaker 2>tell them listen, you're on an important mission. Blah blah blah.

1212
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:06.920
<v Speaker 2>This is the way that a lot of people perceived Oswald.

1213
01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:09.440
<v Speaker 2>That's not necessarily the way you got to do it.

1214
01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:12.280
<v Speaker 5>You could just well you and I've talked about this

1215
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:16.519
<v Speaker 5>in terms of con games, Right, if you really want

1216
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:20.239
<v Speaker 5>to use someone and get them to go along deniably,

1217
01:05:20.559 --> 01:05:24.760
<v Speaker 5>like Okay, you pick somebody who's doing something they want

1218
01:05:24.800 --> 01:05:28.960
<v Speaker 5>to do and convince them that you want to participate

1219
01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:31.559
<v Speaker 5>in that, Like here, I'm offering you a better way

1220
01:05:31.599 --> 01:05:32.840
<v Speaker 5>to do what you want to do.

1221
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:35.760
<v Speaker 4>Uh, And they don't even have to know that.

1222
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:39.639
<v Speaker 5>That's the easiest form of manipulation is to find somebody

1223
01:05:39.920 --> 01:05:43.039
<v Speaker 5>whose agenda is going the same way yours is. If

1224
01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:48.440
<v Speaker 5>you if you want a propaganda campaign against Castro subversion

1225
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:52.920
<v Speaker 5>of Americans, you find somebody who's already engaged in a

1226
01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:54.760
<v Speaker 5>pro Castro campaign and.

1227
01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:56.960
<v Speaker 4>You use them.

1228
01:05:57.079 --> 01:05:59.480
<v Speaker 5>You don't have to give them any orders, and it's

1229
01:05:59.480 --> 01:06:03.400
<v Speaker 5>the perfect deniability. Well, it was much to use the

1230
01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:07.679
<v Speaker 5>word entangle, you know, entangles, the very keyword.

1231
01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:10.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's much like the use of the mob to

1232
01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:13.480
<v Speaker 2>try and assassinate Castro right where it's like, look, their

1233
01:06:13.480 --> 01:06:16.800
<v Speaker 2>agenda matches, so they want Castro out of there, So

1234
01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:18.880
<v Speaker 2>why don't we use these guys because they're willing to

1235
01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:21.880
<v Speaker 2>kill and they're in that business. Let him do it,

1236
01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:24.800
<v Speaker 2>let's help them. That doesn't mean that you let them

1237
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:28.599
<v Speaker 2>in on the excuse me, the whole of the operation. Okay,

1238
01:06:28.840 --> 01:06:31.760
<v Speaker 2>it just means I can direct these guys, they might

1239
01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:35.280
<v Speaker 2>accomplish my goal for me, and you can. And what

1240
01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:37.679
<v Speaker 2>you grab, You grab a guy like Roselli who's already

1241
01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:39.760
<v Speaker 2>failed at a couple of things. He's trying to work

1242
01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:40.679
<v Speaker 2>his Hollywood angle.

1243
01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:41.360
<v Speaker 3>He likes it.

1244
01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:43.679
<v Speaker 2>You get a couple other guys who are losing money

1245
01:06:43.679 --> 01:06:46.239
<v Speaker 2>because they can't get back into Cuba. Right, they took

1246
01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:48.719
<v Speaker 2>over the casino what day three? I mean, you know,

1247
01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:51.199
<v Speaker 2>what are you gonna do? You get these guys who

1248
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:53.559
<v Speaker 2>have the same agenda. It doesn't mean you read them

1249
01:06:53.559 --> 01:06:56.679
<v Speaker 2>into everything. Okay, you just.

1250
01:06:56.760 --> 01:06:59.519
<v Speaker 4>Well what uswell did.

1251
01:06:59.679 --> 01:07:02.679
<v Speaker 5>He's a lot of time, effort and a little money

1252
01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:07.440
<v Speaker 5>in New Orleans, you know, establishing a resume from because

1253
01:07:07.480 --> 01:07:08.679
<v Speaker 5>he wanted to get the cube.

1254
01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:11.119
<v Speaker 4>He believed in the Cuban Revolution. That's what he was

1255
01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:15.360
<v Speaker 4>reading about. He's writing about it. So he's on the radar. Right,

1256
01:07:15.400 --> 01:07:17.960
<v Speaker 4>as David has said, everybody.

1257
01:07:17.480 --> 01:07:21.800
<v Speaker 5>Who's connected to see I knows this. Emilie or Rodriguez

1258
01:07:21.800 --> 01:07:23.480
<v Speaker 5>and Miami station is this.

1259
01:07:23.960 --> 01:07:26.480
<v Speaker 4>So what do you do? It's easy enough.

1260
01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:30.000
<v Speaker 5>You just find a couple of antic astro who will

1261
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:34.159
<v Speaker 5>get in contact that say hey, you're all right, we're

1262
01:07:34.199 --> 01:07:37.079
<v Speaker 5>really looking for Americans who want to support the revolution.

1263
01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:41.880
<v Speaker 4>You're you're great. We're gonna wait all for you.

1264
01:07:42.519 --> 01:07:45.320
<v Speaker 3>Larry's Larry, because you're breaking up a lot.

1265
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:48.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna let David kind of conclude this program if

1266
01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:51.360
<v Speaker 2>you don't mind hang on though, because I want to.

1267
01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Uh again, there's gonna be links with the show notes

1268
01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:56.239
<v Speaker 2>that will show you where to go get the book.

1269
01:07:56.679 --> 01:07:56.840
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

1270
01:07:56.920 --> 01:08:00.480
<v Speaker 2>It's published by Skyhorse, The Oswald Puzzle. The author are

1271
01:08:00.639 --> 01:08:03.719
<v Speaker 2>Larry Hancock and David Boylin. I'm sorry I always say

1272
01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:05.559
<v Speaker 2>your name that way because it sounds wrong.

1273
01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:06.639
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

1274
01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:09.320
<v Speaker 2>And and speaking to somebody from another country a couple

1275
01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:12.840
<v Speaker 2>of months back, they called you David Bolin, and I said, no,

1276
01:08:12.920 --> 01:08:15.880
<v Speaker 2>there's a why there. So I don't know how to

1277
01:08:15.920 --> 01:08:17.199
<v Speaker 2>do it right, but I also know.

1278
01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:20.720
<v Speaker 3>You're doing it wrong. Uh. So it was kind of

1279
01:08:20.720 --> 01:08:22.960
<v Speaker 3>a funny conversation when we talked. We talked about you.

1280
01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:27.239
<v Speaker 2>Uh, it's boiling, boiling, okay, so I'm doing it close

1281
01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:28.079
<v Speaker 2>to right, boiling.

1282
01:08:29.079 --> 01:08:31.119
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes I stretched the A, which is wrong.

1283
01:08:31.159 --> 01:08:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, boiling all right, anyway back to it, I want

1284
01:08:35.840 --> 01:08:37.720
<v Speaker 2>to just ask you a final question here, which is

1285
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:39.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of off the wall, but it's one of these

1286
01:08:39.760 --> 01:08:42.760
<v Speaker 2>things that's always annoyed me. They they try to tie

1287
01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:46.439
<v Speaker 2>Oswald to the mob connections, let's just say in the case,

1288
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:49.600
<v Speaker 2>and it's always annoyed me because simply because his uncle

1289
01:08:49.640 --> 01:08:54.000
<v Speaker 2>was a knock around guy doesn't mean crap in my mind.

1290
01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:58.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, I can tell you personal stories about people

1291
01:08:58.279 --> 01:09:01.000
<v Speaker 2>that had the had the same last name who were

1292
01:09:01.039 --> 01:09:05.880
<v Speaker 2>associated to a cousins, uncles, even their parents may be involved,

1293
01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:10.039
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't directly lead to that person being involved with

1294
01:09:10.199 --> 01:09:15.000
<v Speaker 2>anybody who's in that organization. And I mean, it's just

1295
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:17.239
<v Speaker 2>strange because then they go, what about the you know,

1296
01:09:17.319 --> 01:09:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Dixie Mafia, totally different organization, only the name in common.

1297
01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:26.520
<v Speaker 2>It's a different secret society, and people don't understand it

1298
01:09:26.560 --> 01:09:30.560
<v Speaker 2>because it's like, well, mafia mafia, no Oswald. I can't

1299
01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:34.520
<v Speaker 2>find credible ties to mob people with Oswald. I can't

1300
01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:37.399
<v Speaker 2>not in my mind, and only because I have knowledge

1301
01:09:37.439 --> 01:09:41.880
<v Speaker 2>about how the underworld works and it's just not there.

1302
01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:45.359
<v Speaker 2>But did you address it in the book, and if not,

1303
01:09:45.600 --> 01:09:48.199
<v Speaker 2>did Larry address it? Did you see it? And what

1304
01:09:48.239 --> 01:09:50.000
<v Speaker 2>are your thoughts on that? And then we're going to

1305
01:09:50.039 --> 01:09:53.119
<v Speaker 2>close this out because I think people have plenty to

1306
01:09:53.199 --> 01:09:55.279
<v Speaker 2>dig into in this book that we didn't talk about,

1307
01:09:55.600 --> 01:09:57.399
<v Speaker 2>and plenty of good leads that we've given them here

1308
01:09:57.399 --> 01:10:00.600
<v Speaker 2>in this conversation. So did you address or did Larry

1309
01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:02.199
<v Speaker 2>address it in the book as far as you're.

1310
01:10:02.039 --> 01:10:07.479
<v Speaker 9>Aware, No, we didn't, and why no, because we don't

1311
01:10:07.520 --> 01:10:11.000
<v Speaker 9>believe there's any real connection to organized crime. Let's call

1312
01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:14.319
<v Speaker 9>it that, thank you, thank you, because though I can't

1313
01:10:14.399 --> 01:10:17.880
<v Speaker 9>find it, and I've seen many authors do this, and

1314
01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:19.479
<v Speaker 9>it's just because of his uncle. I mean, you can

1315
01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:24.159
<v Speaker 9>see his uncle's connections, right yeah, yeah, but that doesn't

1316
01:10:24.199 --> 01:10:28.199
<v Speaker 9>tie him to it. And it's just it's not there.

1317
01:10:28.319 --> 01:10:29.960
<v Speaker 9>It's not because I don't want it to be there.

1318
01:10:29.960 --> 01:10:31.600
<v Speaker 9>If it was there, this would be easy for me.

1319
01:10:32.039 --> 01:10:33.600
<v Speaker 2>Matter of fact, I would have written a book on

1320
01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Oswald if I found organized crime.

1321
01:10:35.439 --> 01:10:36.479
<v Speaker 3>Connections to him.

1322
01:10:37.000 --> 01:10:41.760
<v Speaker 2>But it's not there anyway, David, you're basically agreeing with.

1323
01:10:41.680 --> 01:10:44.840
<v Speaker 6>Me, right right, one hundred percent. Okay, it's not there.

1324
01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:46.239
<v Speaker 6>We can see where the connections are.

1325
01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:51.000
<v Speaker 2>Now that's not to say that there aren't possibilities in

1326
01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:54.560
<v Speaker 2>the case. Okay, I don't say that with absolute certainty,

1327
01:10:54.880 --> 01:10:56.439
<v Speaker 2>but I do say then when it comes to the

1328
01:10:56.520 --> 01:10:59.800
<v Speaker 2>character of Lee Rby Oswald, this guy, he's got intelligence

1329
01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:03.119
<v Speaker 2>people around him, he's got political activists around him, he's

1330
01:11:03.159 --> 01:11:07.039
<v Speaker 2>got strange characters who are sort of involved in some

1331
01:11:07.119 --> 01:11:09.560
<v Speaker 2>shady business. For sure, there's some gun runners and this

1332
01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:13.159
<v Speaker 2>and that, but they may be tangentially connected.

1333
01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:14.239
<v Speaker 3>He is not.

1334
01:11:14.800 --> 01:11:18.640
<v Speaker 2>This is a problem that is solved right here, because well,

1335
01:11:18.680 --> 01:11:20.640
<v Speaker 2>why is it not in the book? Much like when

1336
01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:23.199
<v Speaker 2>the guy asked me this year at Lancer came out

1337
01:11:23.199 --> 01:11:26.840
<v Speaker 2>to bother me in between sessions. He says, how come

1338
01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:29.399
<v Speaker 2>nobody's talking about the Secret Service agent who put the

1339
01:11:29.399 --> 01:11:30.039
<v Speaker 2>bullet on the.

1340
01:11:29.960 --> 01:11:31.239
<v Speaker 3>Stretcher, you know?

1341
01:11:31.600 --> 01:11:34.279
<v Speaker 2>And I said, well maybe because after examining it for

1342
01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:38.199
<v Speaker 2>a year the moment majority of us decided there's nothing

1343
01:11:38.239 --> 01:11:42.279
<v Speaker 2>to it and that's why you're not hearing about it.

1344
01:11:42.760 --> 01:11:44.960
<v Speaker 2>And he said, that's not right there. You guys can

1345
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:47.560
<v Speaker 2>get why would a guy say that. I said, okay, look,

1346
01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:50.640
<v Speaker 2>that's your opinion, But you asked me. That's how I

1347
01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:52.640
<v Speaker 2>told you.

1348
01:11:52.640 --> 01:11:54.079
<v Speaker 3>You know what I mean? And I love that.

1349
01:11:54.720 --> 01:11:57.399
<v Speaker 2>Basically this is up David and I have in common,

1350
01:11:57.960 --> 01:11:59.720
<v Speaker 2>which is you asked me.

1351
01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:02.279
<v Speaker 3>I answered it. That's all I can give you.

1352
01:12:02.279 --> 01:12:04.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, if I can find it, I'll find it,

1353
01:12:04.560 --> 01:12:06.800
<v Speaker 2>and if not, I gotta tell you it's not there.

1354
01:12:07.359 --> 01:12:11.319
<v Speaker 2>And I love that about your work. You don't just

1355
01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:13.399
<v Speaker 2>sit there and say, well, I'll take your speculation and

1356
01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:16.399
<v Speaker 2>try to run with it. No, you say, let me

1357
01:12:16.399 --> 01:12:19.439
<v Speaker 2>see where the evidence is and let's see if it

1358
01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:22.560
<v Speaker 2>can hang together. And if it can't, maybe it's not evidence,

1359
01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:25.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe it's just an incident. But if things hang together,

1360
01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:28.800
<v Speaker 2>we got a story to tell. That's like how a

1361
01:12:28.880 --> 01:12:32.840
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor should function, you know, And that's how the prosecutory

1362
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:35.880
<v Speaker 2>brief should have been written about this guy to begin with.

1363
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:39.279
<v Speaker 2>But the Warrant Commission didn't do that, and that's why

1364
01:12:39.359 --> 01:12:42.720
<v Speaker 2>we're still stuck with this story. Anyway, David, any final

1365
01:12:42.760 --> 01:12:44.880
<v Speaker 2>comment on this before I see if Larry can make

1366
01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:48.920
<v Speaker 2>a final comment on the Oswaldt puzzle again available through Skyhorse.

1367
01:12:49.239 --> 01:12:52.199
<v Speaker 2>It's got a really nice black and white dust jacket.

1368
01:12:52.199 --> 01:12:54.640
<v Speaker 2>I have a hard copy, a hard back version here.

1369
01:12:55.000 --> 01:12:56.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if there's going to be a paperback

1370
01:12:56.680 --> 01:13:00.000
<v Speaker 2>or audiobook. I'm hoping this becomes an audiobook, by the way,

1371
01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:03.640
<v Speaker 2>but I guess we'll have to see as publication goes

1372
01:13:03.680 --> 01:13:06.680
<v Speaker 2>forward with Skyhorse Slash, Simon and Schuster.

1373
01:13:07.119 --> 01:13:08.359
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, I.

1374
01:13:08.279 --> 01:13:12.000
<v Speaker 6>Think Skyhorse said is listen here a year before the

1375
01:13:12.039 --> 01:13:15.039
<v Speaker 6>paperback version comes out, so be it a year at least.

1376
01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:17.079
<v Speaker 3>Did they give any hitting on the audiobook?

1377
01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:20.000
<v Speaker 6>Nothing. I haven't heard anything on about the audio book.

1378
01:13:20.159 --> 01:13:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, either way, I'm telling you now this is

1379
01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:25.840
<v Speaker 2>an essential book for the study of Lee Harvey Oswald

1380
01:13:25.880 --> 01:13:29.319
<v Speaker 2>and in my mind, an essential volume when it comes

1381
01:13:29.319 --> 01:13:32.800
<v Speaker 2>to the case. And yeah, Larry Hedcock and David Boylan.

1382
01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:36.119
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, final comment on it, David.

1383
01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:38.800
<v Speaker 6>Well, I think that's I think we covered what we

1384
01:13:39.479 --> 01:13:40.079
<v Speaker 6>wanted to do.

1385
01:13:40.439 --> 01:13:43.520
<v Speaker 2>Actually, okay, Larry, would you like to drop something on

1386
01:13:43.600 --> 01:13:45.279
<v Speaker 2>us just before we close out?

1387
01:13:46.399 --> 01:13:47.640
<v Speaker 6>Larry's disappeared again.

1388
01:13:47.720 --> 01:13:51.279
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, Well, then we'll leave it to your imagination

1389
01:13:51.439 --> 01:13:54.439
<v Speaker 2>books and just close it out like this.

1390
01:13:54.560 --> 01:13:55.800
<v Speaker 3>David, thank you for joining me.

1391
01:13:56.000 --> 01:13:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Of course, I think Larry Hancock I'm always glad to

1392
01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:01.119
<v Speaker 2>have him along, but I guess he's having Internet troubles coincidentally,

1393
01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:03.960
<v Speaker 2>So it is what it is. And no matter who

1394
01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:05.720
<v Speaker 2>you are, where you are, when you are, remember I

1395
01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:06.520
<v Speaker 2>merely chilly.

1396
01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:07.880
<v Speaker 3>All of you are indeed the.

1397
01:14:07.880 --> 01:14:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Effect oh Chili dot com.

1398
01:14:58.039 --> 01:15:00.680
<v Speaker 6>Dot com radio network.

1399
01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:03.319
<v Speaker 7>Yo Yolis. Doug Campbell, host of the Dallas Action podcast

1400
01:15:03.399 --> 01:15:06.600
<v Speaker 7>presented by Wall Street Window, and you are listening to

1401
01:15:06.680 --> 01:15:10.920
<v Speaker 7>the o'chill effect, revelation through conversation.

1402
01:15:11.119 --> 01:15:15.800
<v Speaker 10>In Denial, Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks by

1403
01:15:15.880 --> 01:15:20.319
<v Speaker 10>Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of US covert

1404
01:15:20.399 --> 01:15:24.239
<v Speaker 10>operations and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book In

1405
01:15:24.359 --> 01:15:28.199
<v Speaker 10>Denial rips the cover off many of them, using new files.

1406
01:15:28.199 --> 01:15:30.600
<v Speaker 10>It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no

1407
01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:33.680
<v Speaker 10>one has ever written about before. It shows why it

1408
01:15:33.720 --> 01:15:36.239
<v Speaker 10>really failed and why the United States did not.

1409
01:15:36.359 --> 01:15:39.359
<v Speaker 11>Earn from it. It also shows why other countries today

1410
01:15:39.439 --> 01:15:43.079
<v Speaker 11>are doing secret operations with more success. This is the

1411
01:15:43.079 --> 01:15:46.840
<v Speaker 11>book that puts what some want to deny into the light.

1412
01:15:47.239 --> 01:15:52.359
<v Speaker 11>In Denial, Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks Larry Hancock.

1413
01:15:53.520 --> 01:15:57.199
<v Speaker 11>For more information, go to Larry hyphen Handcock dot com.

1414
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:00.880
<v Speaker 11>Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon. In

1415
01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:02.640
<v Speaker 11>digital or physical.

1416
01:16:02.199 --> 01:16:05.319
<v Speaker 8>Force, The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great

1417
01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:08.720
<v Speaker 8>national transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency

1418
01:16:08.760 --> 01:16:11.800
<v Speaker 8>in the context of the times and reveals never before

1419
01:16:11.840 --> 01:16:15.880
<v Speaker 8>published information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would

1420
01:16:15.920 --> 01:16:18.279
<v Speaker 8>not have been assassinated if he had been president two

1421
01:16:18.399 --> 01:16:21.960
<v Speaker 8>hundred years ago. His assassination took place in the context

1422
01:16:22.039 --> 01:16:24.279
<v Speaker 8>of the Cold War and the rise of the national

1423
01:16:24.279 --> 01:16:27.560
<v Speaker 8>security state. Before World War II, the United States was

1424
01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:30.800
<v Speaker 8>a continental republic. In the decade that followed, it became

1425
01:16:30.840 --> 01:16:34.640
<v Speaker 8>an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only

1426
01:16:34.680 --> 01:16:37.319
<v Speaker 8>wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that there were short

1427
01:16:37.399 --> 01:16:40.399
<v Speaker 8>range missiles on the island armed with nuclear warheads that

1428
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:43.239
<v Speaker 8>they could not destroy because they were on mobile launchers.

1429
01:16:43.319 --> 01:16:46.000
<v Speaker 8>Their invasion could have led to a Third World War,

1430
01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:49.359
<v Speaker 8>and they wanted to go to war anyway. The War

1431
01:16:49.439 --> 01:16:52.720
<v Speaker 8>State by Michael Swanson reveals why and will show you

1432
01:16:52.760 --> 01:16:55.880
<v Speaker 8>what President Kennedy was up against. For more information, the

1433
01:16:56.000 --> 01:16:57.439
<v Speaker 8>Warstate dot.

1434
01:16:57.119 --> 01:17:02.319
<v Speaker 12>Com revelation through conversation, Go ahead, call it about the

1435
01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:03.439
<v Speaker 12>JFA assassination.

1436
01:17:03.680 --> 01:17:04.680
<v Speaker 3>Right, Well, what do you want to know?

1437
01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:08.199
<v Speaker 12>Toddy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew? Ruby and

1438
01:17:08.279 --> 01:17:09.680
<v Speaker 12>Barrie answer weapons?

1439
01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:12.039
<v Speaker 2>Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels.

1440
01:17:12.079 --> 01:17:13.199
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't make me a wagon.

1441
01:17:13.279 --> 01:17:16.439
<v Speaker 12>But okay, Oswald on the building and trying to prevent

1442
01:17:16.479 --> 01:17:18.600
<v Speaker 12>the murder of John Kennedy, Come on now, has a

1443
01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:21.600
<v Speaker 12>real effort on the DFA assassination inlaim.

1444
01:17:21.760 --> 01:17:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her

1445
01:17:25.840 --> 01:17:28.720
<v Speaker 2>own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy

1446
01:17:28.760 --> 01:17:32.239
<v Speaker 2>of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words

1447
01:17:32.279 --> 01:17:35.159
<v Speaker 2>and the known evidence in the case to get at

1448
01:17:35.239 --> 01:17:37.239
<v Speaker 2>well a different perspective.

1449
01:17:37.319 --> 01:17:38.039
<v Speaker 3>Let's say you.

1450
01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:41.079
<v Speaker 2>Can get Judith Barry Baker in her own words from

1451
01:17:41.079 --> 01:17:44.560
<v Speaker 2>the author himself, signed if you request it by contacting

1452
01:17:44.600 --> 01:17:49.199
<v Speaker 2>doctor Brown at k I as jfk at aol dot com.

1453
01:17:49.239 --> 01:17:52.520
<v Speaker 2>It's a fun book and it actually dissects the many,

1454
01:17:52.600 --> 01:17:54.159
<v Speaker 2>many fantastic claims.

1455
01:17:54.439 --> 01:17:56.720
<v Speaker 3>Judith very Baker in her own words.

1456
01:17:56.800 --> 01:17:59.119
<v Speaker 12>Thank you for all the great information you like.

1457
01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:02.720
<v Speaker 13>History, real history that you were never taught in schools.

1458
01:18:03.119 --> 01:18:07.319
<v Speaker 13>Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and Nation Building in

1459
01:18:07.479 --> 01:18:12.079
<v Speaker 13>Southeast Asia by author Mike Swanson, with new documentation never

1460
01:18:12.359 --> 01:18:15.760
<v Speaker 13>seen before that'll open your eyes to events that led

1461
01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:19.760
<v Speaker 13>up to this. Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and

1462
01:18:19.920 --> 01:18:24.680
<v Speaker 13>Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen

1463
01:18:24.880 --> 01:18:29.399
<v Speaker 13>sixty one. Get your copy today at Amazon dot com.

1464
01:18:29.560 --> 01:18:32.800
<v Speaker 13>Why the Vietnam War by author Mike Swanson

1465
01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:01.359
<v Speaker 11>Four