Speaker 1: Get ready.
Speaker 2: January fifteenth, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing
Speaker 2: we call a calendar. And yeah, I had to pause
Speaker 2: there for a second because I almost said twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: But it's not so not a replay if you're on
Speaker 2: the live stream, if you're at Ochelly dot com or
Speaker 2: using one of the radio apps, welcome to it. But
Speaker 2: probably this is gonna get loaded into heavy, heavy rotation
Speaker 2: for replay. Why well, we have talked about it a
Speaker 2: few times over the past few months. Larry Hancock's Larry
Speaker 2: Hancock and actually co authored by David boy Lin, Okay,
Speaker 2: which is a name you might recognize from the last
Speaker 2: Lancer conference. The name you might recognize because he's been
Speaker 2: on the show before as well. Of course, Larry has
Speaker 2: been on the show for years, and I talked recently
Speaker 2: about extremely proud I am that that has been along
Speaker 2: with me for a long ride here, and I went
Speaker 2: for a long ride with this book, The Oswald Puzzle.
Speaker 2: It is available now, okay, and I'm glad it is.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: The guy's over at Lone Gunman and Dallas actually beat
Speaker 2: me to it, and that's fine. I've been sick, I know,
Speaker 2: and it is what it is. But on the other hand,
Speaker 2: I'm happy that I've been along for the entire ride
Speaker 2: the creation of this book. And I'm going to tell
Speaker 2: you this now. I always recommend all of Larry's books,
Speaker 2: so obviously I'm going to tell you that this one
Speaker 2: belongs on your shelf too. But it's also an essential
Speaker 2: book when it comes to understanding the JFK case. Now
Speaker 2: that's something I've never said about any of Larry's books,
Speaker 2: like they're great, they're helpful, they are recommended. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 2: they're in the top, you know, the top of the game,
Speaker 2: that's for sure.
Speaker 3: But I'm telling you.
Speaker 2: Now this one is necessary. It's gonna upset some people,
Speaker 2: I think, and rightfully so. Look, Larry Hancock's gonna explain
Speaker 2: I think a little bit about the evolution of the book. Again,
Speaker 2: we talked about it on the show before a little bit.
Speaker 2: But now that I have it in my hands, I'm
Speaker 2: telling you now I've been able to and.
Speaker 3: Here here's a big piece of spoiler work. Here.
Speaker 2: When you look at the back of this and you
Speaker 2: see that, you know, Dick Russell gave a gave a
Speaker 2: little little blurb of the book. Of course, we see
Speaker 2: you know, praise for Larry Hancock on the back of
Speaker 2: the book.
Speaker 3: It's Skyhorse book, right, Yeah, this is a Skyhorse book. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's right.
Speaker 2: I do recall that that was sent to me when
Speaker 2: I was half out of it by Skyhorse. But anyway,
Speaker 2: this thing is essential and it's great. It's got that
Speaker 2: picture of Oswald on the front cover of a picture
Speaker 2: you might be very familiar with, and a composite bunch
Speaker 2: of photos commonly seen on the internet as like, you know,
Speaker 2: the Lee Harvey Oswald experience on the internet and all that.
Speaker 2: You get to the photo section of this thing, though,
Speaker 2: you might get a little surprise. Anyway, I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: talk about that. I'm gonna let these guys talk about it.
Speaker 2: I've got Larry Hancock and David Boiling with me. So first, Larry,
Speaker 2: how you doing tonight?
Speaker 4: Oh? I'm doing good.
Speaker 5: I'm as as usual as time. I've already ready for spring.
Speaker 5: So but I'm okay now, just anticipating.
Speaker 2: Right, well, believe it or not, even though I'm sitting
Speaker 2: in Georgia. Larry, We're gonna freeze next week again. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, like snow even now, you know how weird
Speaker 2: that is for Georgia. That's gonna shut down the state. Okay,
Speaker 2: that's chaos. The second half bitch of snow hits the
Speaker 2: ground in Georgia, so I'm gonna have to stay inside
Speaker 2: somehow again. But whatever. Anyway, we're halfway through the month
Speaker 2: of January and they're shipping this out what today?
Speaker 5: I actually started shipping yesterday. Oh yes, people are getting
Speaker 5: it today. I've had several people right that they received
Speaker 5: it today and they're starting to go through it.
Speaker 3: Excellent.
Speaker 2: And you know, here's the thing about this book. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna tell you. You can use it as a reference book, okay,
Speaker 2: depending on how your mind works with the case. But
Speaker 2: also you can just read it in the order it's given.
Speaker 2: Introduction by res Rex Bradford. He also participated heavily in
Speaker 2: the editing, and David boil IND's with us. Now we
Speaker 2: haven't given a chance to say hi to David yet,
Speaker 2: but David, just how you're doing tonight and anything you
Speaker 2: want to jump ahead of with this book, like right away,
Speaker 2: first thing I got to say about this, or you
Speaker 2: want to just tell us how you're doing.
Speaker 3: That's fine too.
Speaker 6: Either way. That's as usual this time of year. We're
Speaker 6: all recovering from something like you are, you know, just
Speaker 6: skinting over the flu, got a little bit of a cough,
Speaker 6: throats pretty decent, so I'm able to converse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, your throats out better than mine, feels, I'll tell
Speaker 2: you that. But that's okay. We'll get through this together.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So, Larry, we have already talked about the evolution of
Speaker 2: the book all right on other shows. How do you
Speaker 2: feel about the way it came out, the completion of
Speaker 2: it when you got it in your hands first, which
Speaker 2: you obviously got in your hands before everybody else, And
Speaker 2: I mean, how do you feel about it? What do
Speaker 2: you think about it personally? Considering that you've done a
Speaker 2: lot of writing, a lot of presentation, free books, you know,
Speaker 2: re issues of books already. I mean, how many would
Speaker 2: someone would have talked? Has already been reissued?
Speaker 6: What?
Speaker 3: Three times? Correct?
Speaker 4: Three version?
Speaker 3: Just three versions?
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm just saying I'm not complaining. I'm just saying that,
Speaker 2: you know, it's been around long enough, and you've got
Speaker 2: tipping point, and I mean, you know you've had to
Speaker 2: address this a lot, and finally to sort of reevaluate
Speaker 2: Oswald excuse me, kind of a tough thing to do.
Speaker 5: No, Yeah, I like it because I think it's it's
Speaker 5: something I have not done before. The books that I've
Speaker 5: done before are kind of like the Conspiracy in a way.
Speaker 4: They're all over the place.
Speaker 5: Because you have to be, because there are so many
Speaker 5: different elements you have to deal with, you know, whether
Speaker 5: it's Daly Plaza, you know, you're you're going all over
Speaker 5: the country, You're going with different groups, You're going with
Speaker 5: different uh with a different time frame, what happened before,
Speaker 5: what happened.
Speaker 4: After, and so they're all composites.
Speaker 5: The nice thing about this book and focusing on Oswalt
Speaker 5: is it it's inherently more structured. You know, you're just
Speaker 5: you're you're just looking at one person and the conspiracy
Speaker 5: eventually in the book, and the book does you know
Speaker 5: it's not all conspiracy. It's all Oswald plus a conspiracy
Speaker 5: overlaid on Oswalt. So from that that standpoint, I like
Speaker 5: the way it reads UH And I think readers who
Speaker 5: maybe one of one of the things we've got to admit,
Speaker 5: and David and Ill both say this book was not
Speaker 5: necessarily written for the conspiracy community, right. It was written
Speaker 5: for a more general community that has always been interested
Speaker 5: in the assassination, but in Oswald. So it's it's written
Speaker 5: for a broader community.
Speaker 2: Right, And look, and here's here's the thing I'm going
Speaker 2: to address directly with you, which is going to sound
Speaker 2: a little confrontational, but bear with me. If you go
Speaker 2: with the time periods. Okay, and you and I have
Speaker 2: talked about this before. When you're working in a particular
Speaker 2: time period, you're influenced by that time period based on
Speaker 2: what's sort of happening. Okay, And you got to admit
Speaker 2: there's a big change post fortieth anniversary. Everybody talks about
Speaker 2: a big change since the fiftieth you know, that was
Speaker 2: the big marker. But I don't see it that way.
Speaker 2: I've always said that once we hit the fortieth things
Speaker 2: changed a lot because technology, you know, a certain things up.
Speaker 2: We had a greater worldwide sort of connection here. You know,
Speaker 2: you have the Australian group, you have the UK group,
Speaker 2: now much bigger than it was back then. It has
Speaker 2: all grown, but it's grown in an atmosphere where it
Speaker 2: was influenced by its time.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You have the post ARRB sort of reality that sets
Speaker 2: in around the fortieth anniversary. You have some innovations that occur,
Speaker 2: you have the conferences being much more publicly aware or
Speaker 2: the public more aware of them. I should say all
Speaker 2: of that stuff started to happen in my mind after
Speaker 2: the fortieth anniversary. Now you're working in that time period,
Speaker 2: so you go from there to the fiftieth. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: a big milestone. It's a celebration sort of because there's
Speaker 2: been a lot of work in fifty years since the
Speaker 2: event itself, et cetera, etc. But still a lot of
Speaker 2: people thought it was over at that point.
Speaker 3: It is not.
Speaker 2: And these atmospherees shifted now. I'm trying very very hard
Speaker 2: not to put any descriptions on them, but maybe you could.
Speaker 2: What do you think about the past twenty years? And
Speaker 2: in my mind this might have not been a necessary
Speaker 2: book in two thousand and three. You advance to twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five. This is necessary now to reevaluate this character
Speaker 2: who has been discussed, maligned, demonized, turned into a saint,
Speaker 2: turned into a double oh seven figure, turned into a
Speaker 2: fan fiction figure of all kinds of romantic intent, and
Speaker 2: d D da Da da Dad and all that nonsense
Speaker 2: has gone on. A realistic, solid evaluation was needed from
Speaker 2: somebody who could do it, and in my mind, you're
Speaker 2: one of the.
Speaker 3: Few people who could do it.
Speaker 2: So here we are, and this is why it's essential.
Speaker 2: By the way, if you're interested in the case. I
Speaker 2: didn't say if you're interested in the conspiracy, because I
Speaker 2: agree with Larry, this is useful to anyone who is
Speaker 2: interested in this character in history.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 2: And there's information in here that I've not seen before.
Speaker 2: Okay that I've not seen articulated. I've seen suggested, but
Speaker 2: I've actually seen it late doubt. And I'm not going
Speaker 2: to tell you what it is. I don't want to
Speaker 2: spoil anything for anybody. But you go section to section. Also,
Speaker 2: each section is named rather explicitly, so you could utilize
Speaker 2: it based on the section of interest. I was particularly
Speaker 2: interested in Mexico City. I was particularly interested in the
Speaker 2: New Orleans reevaluation, etc. But Larry, talk to me about
Speaker 2: the time period here, the past twenty years. Do you
Speaker 2: think it changed from two thousand and three or a
Speaker 2: mile off on that?
Speaker 5: Oh, it definitely changed, Chuck, And I think when you're
Speaker 5: talking about this, you're right. Maybe the word I would
Speaker 5: use would be eras eras you know, what era are
Speaker 5: you working in?
Speaker 3: You know, that's.
Speaker 5: Immediately after the assassination. For ten twenty years you have
Speaker 5: the skeptical error, where were those people that are doing
Speaker 5: the work are consistently finding problems and consistencies whatever with
Speaker 5: the warrant commission.
Speaker 2: Everything is deconsious, the deconstruction and guessing game from the deconstruction, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: go ahead.
Speaker 5: And maybe that is that's that's a good term. They
Speaker 5: are deconstructing, which means you're pulling it all apart. And
Speaker 5: what you do when you pull everything apart is it's
Speaker 5: all mysterious. You know, everything is questionable. All you know
Speaker 5: is you didn't get the real story, So everything is questionable.
Speaker 4: Everything's full of mystery, you know.
Speaker 5: And that that keeps going on through the Garrison era
Speaker 5: when we add more deconstruction and more mystery to it,
Speaker 5: more names, i mean, the names and suspects that come
Speaker 5: out in the first decade are added to and that's
Speaker 5: what happens for three or four decades. It's a continual
Speaker 5: We're deconstructing more, we're finding more persons of interest, you know,
Speaker 5: and things continue to get more mysterious.
Speaker 4: There are more leads now.
Speaker 2: The seventies and eighties provide us with you know, reasons
Speaker 2: for skepticism in the government's explanation, you know Nixon, the
Speaker 2: hearings in the Senate, the hearings in the House, the
Speaker 2: official government record expands. It isn't all made public. But
Speaker 2: even in the eighties, going into the eighties, we got
Speaker 2: Iran contract, we got oh wait a minute, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of questions we could ask here, and that expands
Speaker 2: it again, that universe in not twenty years.
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, And at that point it's growing. I mean,
Speaker 5: it's the conspiracy in essence, isn't growth stage right? Things
Speaker 5: are getting more complex and more complex. And what really
Speaker 5: happens is then we get to the nineties, we get
Speaker 5: the JFK Records Act, we get the ARB, and for
Speaker 5: the next twenty years we have an exponential growth and
Speaker 5: again another round of skepticism and more complexity because we're
Speaker 5: seeing inside things. Things that were mysterious four are no
Speaker 5: longer mysterious. But then we have a whole set of
Speaker 5: new things that are So it's kind of like round
Speaker 5: one skepticism, Round two, more skepticism. And by this time
Speaker 5: we've got an awesome amount of detail. We're almost to
Speaker 5: the point by the beginning of this century where you
Speaker 5: can take any set of data that you want and
Speaker 5: make it be whatever you want because there's so.
Speaker 4: Much of it and everything is so interconnected.
Speaker 2: See I borrow from Henry Hurt and say, it's the
Speaker 2: reasonable doubt era where you have reasonable doubts. And I
Speaker 2: don't mean to say that it's just reasonable doubt against
Speaker 2: the government's case.
Speaker 3: I mean it's reasonable doubt in all.
Speaker 2: Directions, Okay, which opened things up wider for that turn
Speaker 2: of the century. I talked about where I feel as
Speaker 2: though that twenty years is different. So but but I
Speaker 2: call that the reasonable doubt era.
Speaker 3: Again. Apologies, but go ahead, Larry.
Speaker 4: Now there we go.
Speaker 5: Further, and I think you know it's a commons to
Speaker 5: stay that for history. Let's talk about real history. Yes,
Speaker 5: we pretty much know the real history on almost any subject,
Speaker 5: but certainly anything that involves crime, conspiracy.
Speaker 4: You know that's somewhat sensational.
Speaker 5: It takes fifty to sixty years for people to start
Speaker 5: writing real history, right.
Speaker 4: Historians know this.
Speaker 5: It's sort of like, you know, well, see why might
Speaker 5: not major writing about politics today because it's politics, it's
Speaker 5: not history.
Speaker 4: You can't see it yet, right.
Speaker 2: And that's my cut in here for again to mention
Speaker 2: the late Roger Remington, right, because he was a historian
Speaker 2: that I interacted with, and he was a trained historian
Speaker 2: technically that was you know, that was what he was
Speaker 2: trained for. Aquinas college, not a big college. No no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I don't care about that. But what he taught me
Speaker 2: about was the idea of perspective and that was literally
Speaker 2: the French word for it and all that it was
Speaker 2: supposed to be. You can't write about a historical event unl.
Speaker 2: Twenty five years later, well, this thing called modern contemporary
Speaker 2: history was sort of introduced into the literature stream. Let's
Speaker 2: call it, you know, Rise and Paul, the third Reich, right,
Speaker 2: And that was the principle I worked with for a
Speaker 2: little while to say, well, this is why all these
Speaker 2: mistakes are going to be made. And I patiently sat
Speaker 2: and waited and said, this is a good process. This
Speaker 2: is still the investigative era in my mind. In that
Speaker 2: first forty years, that's all investigative. It's not any conclusion.
Speaker 2: Anybody who said I've got the case solved, this one
Speaker 2: had the case solved.
Speaker 3: You're lining yourself because.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that are not going to
Speaker 2: be within our grasp no matter what.
Speaker 5: But anyway, and you begin to realize that, I think
Speaker 5: reality sets in and once you get to the stage
Speaker 5: we are I think most people that are involved with
Speaker 5: this kind of like we have ninety five percent of
Speaker 5: the information that we're going to get or maybe even
Speaker 5: bigger percentage. And know there really probably aren't any smoking
Speaker 5: gun records that survived and you know that you but
Speaker 5: I think what has happened in this last decade, and
Speaker 5: David is responsible for a lot of this in the
Speaker 5: areas that we've been touching, is there has to be
Speaker 5: a time when you stop making puzzle pieces and you
Speaker 5: start putting them together right, and you start fitting them,
Speaker 5: and there has to be a point in time when
Speaker 5: you begin to make use of all the data that
Speaker 5: people did manage to collect and you start going, well,
Speaker 5: these pieces really fit together, and great, they are consistent,
Speaker 5: there's continuity. This piece of the puzzle fits together. Yeah,
Speaker 5: are there pieces that are left over that are you know,
Speaker 5: outside the puzzle. There are, but it's the ones that
Speaker 5: you can actually start putting together and go, oh, this
Speaker 5: paint's kind of like a self corroborating picture because the
Speaker 5: piece is fit. There has to be a point in
Speaker 5: time if you want real history where the pieces actually fit.
Speaker 5: And from our perspective, that's what David and Bill Sempach
Speaker 5: and Jeff Morley and a lot of people have started
Speaker 5: doing over the last decade is providing the puzzle pieces
Speaker 5: that fit together. You know, that where you can eliminate
Speaker 5: some of the mystery. Yeah, is there this individual that
Speaker 5: you'll never understand and you don't know how to fit
Speaker 5: into the puzzle that remained suspicious forever. Yeah, there's some
Speaker 5: of those, but you have to focus on what you
Speaker 5: actually get to the point of being comfortable with what
Speaker 5: does fit and what story does that tell you? From
Speaker 5: the history history totally complete. No history is ever totally complete.
Speaker 5: So I guess maybe to answer your question, I think
Speaker 5: during the last decade we have reached the point where
Speaker 5: we can actually see some history. It's it's you know,
Speaker 5: it's closing in. Things are fitting together, things that you
Speaker 5: didn't even know two decades ago when I first started writing,
Speaker 5: I didn't know most of this stuff right, and it's
Speaker 5: somebody asked me, well, how do you know that you're
Speaker 5: not cherry picking? And the answer to me is, I
Speaker 5: know I'm not cherry picking when I start finding things
Speaker 5: I wasn't looking for. If I just find things i'm
Speaker 5: looking for, I've got to wonder if if I'm behind
Speaker 5: the thing, you know, if I'm driving it, or if
Speaker 5: the information is driving it. And more recently in the
Speaker 5: past few years, especially with what David's done in regarding
Speaker 5: New Orleans and Miami, like, these were things that we
Speaker 5: never knew and suddenly they're there and they fit. That's
Speaker 5: a real crucial phase.
Speaker 2: So at this point I want to bring David into
Speaker 2: the conversation directly because I want to know what era
Speaker 2: you jumped in, David, and see what you have to
Speaker 2: say about what we said so far regarding this these
Speaker 2: different eras sort of and the evolution of the case,
Speaker 2: because you come in at a very strange time where
Speaker 2: I took notice of you, and you know, I know
Speaker 2: you had to have been involved before that. When I
Speaker 2: took notice of you, for sure, other people started coming
Speaker 2: to going, you know, this guy's doing some stuff here
Speaker 2: which is a little different. He's obviously combing over things
Speaker 2: that other people missed, and I go, oh, well, this
Speaker 2: is a guy I need to talk to. But next
Speaker 2: thing I knew is everybody knew who you were, and
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, okay, this makes sense, but when
Speaker 2: did you come into this Exactly this case, just.
Speaker 6: Before Oliver Stone's movie came out, believe it or not,
Speaker 6: I was doing a lot of reading and then when
Speaker 6: all of a Stone's movie came out.
Speaker 3: All of a sudden, ah, okay.
Speaker 6: We're able to get a lot more documents. But back then,
Speaker 6: a lot of the things weren't online, so we had
Speaker 6: to request them.
Speaker 2: If you remember, yes, the riff numbers, and you had
Speaker 2: to know what you were looking for and.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, so you submit a request the National Archives,
Speaker 6: and every US citizen was allowed one hundred free pages.
Speaker 6: Sometimes they gave you more, you know. So I tried
Speaker 6: to get like Lauren Hall's testimony, a bunch of things
Speaker 6: like that, and I also recruited for all of my
Speaker 6: family members. They all of a sudden started getting packages
Speaker 6: from the National Archives. So, I mean, that's what was
Speaker 6: what it was like back in the days. You had
Speaker 6: to get the hard copy and you can only get
Speaker 6: so much. So I think everybody I ever met would
Speaker 6: eventually get their hundred pages and the mail from the
Speaker 6: National Archives, right, And that's when the Archives they were
Speaker 6: very They were help very response, very responsible, very helpful.
Speaker 2: Even if you made a mistake, okay, and I made
Speaker 2: a couple of mistakes requesting stuff.
Speaker 3: They helped me.
Speaker 2: Actually, you know, I actually get a phone call because
Speaker 2: you'd give them a phone contact number, and you know,
Speaker 2: we had we had landlines back then, folks, and they
Speaker 2: would call you and talk to you like, look, you
Speaker 2: kind of have a little some off.
Speaker 3: Do you mean this or this? And they would fix it.
Speaker 2: You know, now you didn't get it right, they might
Speaker 2: just send it back to you if you send it
Speaker 2: to you know, paper through the mail. And the other
Speaker 2: weird thing I want to I want to see if
Speaker 2: you know, because this seems like you and I came
Speaker 2: into the case same time, which is funny to me,
Speaker 2: but because eighty eight is when I come in, twenty
Speaker 2: fifth anniversary, a lot of media awareness.
Speaker 3: That's me. But you know, the next thing I know
Speaker 3: is Oliver Stone hits.
Speaker 2: I'm then aware of the you know, release the damn
Speaker 2: files of people, you know, and I'm going, yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: with them, let's go, let's get it out, let's get
Speaker 2: it on, let's.
Speaker 3: Get to it. Uh. And that's the era I came in.
Speaker 2: But the weird thing was you got frustrated by it too,
Speaker 2: because your hundred pages could get eaten up by you know,
Speaker 2: multiple copies of the same stupid you know, you think
Speaker 2: you're getting a file of some special importance. This person's
Speaker 2: personal file contains four copies of the same damn newspaper,
Speaker 2: clipping over and over again. And also you know three
Speaker 2: four blank pages for no reason. So you're you know,
Speaker 2: you get copies of those blank pages. Thanks and the
Speaker 2: trans middle thing telling you what it is you got,
Speaker 2: uh you recall all that.
Speaker 3: Too, right?
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, get some that just say referred to an
Speaker 6: second agency, another agency, really, you know, so the CIA
Speaker 6: would refer to the FBI, the FBI refer to the CIA. Sorry,
Speaker 6: we can't, you know, release this document. So it was
Speaker 6: also the age of early the internet too, so we're
Speaker 6: able to communicate with a lot of people back then,
Speaker 6: you'd be surprised to would you know, send an email
Speaker 6: communicating with you know, like Mary Farrell My email back
Speaker 6: and forth with her, and Gordon Winslow, Gaydon Fonzie. You
Speaker 6: know a lot of these people were available via you know,
Speaker 6: via email back then or small little groups, so they
Speaker 6: would call it back then, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Ed Lopez even was available to some people, not everybody, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, depending if you were in the like Solandria group,
Speaker 2: which I had been tangentially involved in. Somehow my email
Speaker 2: got in there the first email address I had, uh,
Speaker 2: and I'm I'm on a list with people that I
Speaker 2: couldn't believe I was on a list with. And they
Speaker 2: were starting to share documents and they would just be
Speaker 2: sort of attached. And that was back in the days
Speaker 2: when you know, you couldn't you didn't have a scanner
Speaker 2: at home, right, So everybody's going to places like Kinko's
Speaker 2: or whatever and scanning this stuff in and we're yeah,
Speaker 2: we're in the rudimentary stage of sharing these documents. Now
Speaker 2: today it's a lot easier. Even the National Archives allows
Speaker 2: you to see a lot of stuff instantly when it's released,
Speaker 2: which is nice. But then again it also becomes suspect,
Speaker 2: right because you're sitting there going, well, if they're making
Speaker 2: this available you know this easily, then how important is it?
Speaker 2: And a lot of times again it's still garbage or
Speaker 2: it's something you've already seen somewhere else. And then you
Speaker 2: had the change in the classifications right where stuff you
Speaker 2: know becomes classified again, which wasn't class you know, and
Speaker 2: back and forth and now you're not even allowed to
Speaker 2: know what it is you might have in your hands.
Speaker 2: You might have a classified document in your hands, you
Speaker 2: don't even know it. Weird stuff, and that sort of
Speaker 2: put people off the document searches, and then other people
Speaker 2: became document hounds.
Speaker 6: Yeah that's me.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 2: So that's where you definitely come in as doing major work.
Speaker 2: I mean, do you think you were just curious around
Speaker 2: the Oliver Stone time and then you found that niche
Speaker 2: like a few years later or what.
Speaker 6: Very curious it was interested in. You know, it's a
Speaker 6: combination over lap with you know, the right wing, the
Speaker 6: ultra right, and the Kennedy assassination. After reading Dick Russell's book,
Speaker 6: you know, the man who knew too much there, but
Speaker 6: he had so much about the right wing in there
Speaker 6: that I kind of gravitated towards that in my early study,
Speaker 6: Like how Jerry Hemming and Lauren Hall all hang around,
Speaker 6: hung around with a lot of the ultra you know guy,
Speaker 6: some members of the Klan, John Birch minute men. These
Speaker 6: are the people who they were associated with. So I
Speaker 6: kind of went in that direction for a few years,
Speaker 6: and then came back towards after reading Larry's book, you know,
Speaker 6: like someone would have talked, right, I said, oh, okay,
Speaker 6: this is where I want to go now. So that's
Speaker 6: where I've been ever since.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: And then there's been some you know, wild stuff again,
Speaker 2: you know, like the the Wall Brown's you know, massive
Speaker 2: volume on the CD right that came out and you're like, whoa,
Speaker 2: you know which what worked on for a long time.
Speaker 3: I was talking to him a lot during that. It
Speaker 3: was crazy.
Speaker 2: He called a guy up on the phone, Hey, well,
Speaker 2: how you doing, and he starts off the conversation with
Speaker 2: on this date.
Speaker 3: Like you know, and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: It was me random like you know, March thirteenth, this happened,
Speaker 2: you know whatever, and March twenty eighth. This is what
Speaker 2: I'm going to be doing next. Because there's not too
Speaker 2: much that goes on there for a couple of weeks, okay, whatever,
Speaker 2: But he's pulling up minuscule things and putting them together
Speaker 2: in the Master Chronology.
Speaker 6: Man.
Speaker 2: Previous to that, we had some other stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: the Milestone books. But Larry's book, Yeah, this is where
Speaker 2: things get really strange because you have these different splinters
Speaker 2: occur now well, being involved in this kind of a book,
Speaker 2: I kind of asked you off air, you know where
Speaker 2: it is you think you were most involved here because
Speaker 2: I know a lot of this stuff came out of
Speaker 2: Larry's brain. A lot of this stuff got rearranged by
Speaker 2: Rex Bradford. Rex again writes the introduction to this book,
Speaker 2: but he also did a lot of editing work on it.
Speaker 2: I don't know if Skyhorse went over it again. I
Speaker 2: don't know if they would have had to after Rex
Speaker 2: painfully edit stings. And that's said with a lot of love.
Speaker 6: Rex.
Speaker 2: I want you to know, but I got to tell
Speaker 2: you some authors have described Rex's editing as painful.
Speaker 3: I'm sure Larry didn't take it personally.
Speaker 4: But now that would be me. Yeah, he knows that.
Speaker 2: I would try to leave you out of it, Larry,
Speaker 2: but okay, that's on you. But anyway, I mean being
Speaker 2: involved in this process, David, just you know, last thing,
Speaker 2: and then I want Larry to pick up after you know,
Speaker 2: how do you feel about it? Because this is in
Speaker 2: my mind. Seriously, And I don't just say this because
Speaker 2: I love Larry. If this book sucked, guys, I tell
Speaker 2: you this book is terrible, and Larry dropped the ball here.
Speaker 2: I would tell you that, but he didn't, and neither
Speaker 2: did David, and neither did Rex.
Speaker 3: Nobody did.
Speaker 2: This is an excellent volume if you want to study
Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswalt. Okay, And I'm not talking about the conspiracies.
Speaker 2: I'm saying you can put all that crap in context
Speaker 2: from what I've read. And I haven't even finished it
Speaker 2: yet because I've been ill, but I can see already
Speaker 2: that I can take a part individual areas of the
Speaker 2: conspiracy and use this book to guide me.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying you know everything in here is
Speaker 2: one hundred percent. I never say that, but I will
Speaker 2: tell you that this is as close as you're going
Speaker 2: to get to an independently written reference book, okay, on
Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswald, and as much as, say, like Robert
Speaker 2: Grudin's picture book, The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald is
Speaker 2: a really good volume. You want to see every visual
Speaker 2: image that could possibly be gotten a hold of. Even so,
Speaker 2: this book has a couple images I haven't seen before,
Speaker 2: at least that I don't remember seeing them. Maybe they
Speaker 2: have been seen elsewhere, but I don't remember them. But
Speaker 2: the visuals are just a side issue in this book.
Speaker 2: It's nice, but.
Speaker 3: Not the key.
Speaker 2: The information is key, and this is an essential book
Speaker 2: if you want to study Oswald. So, David, how do
Speaker 2: you feel about being involved in this book anyway? Just
Speaker 2: in general? And then, like I said, I'd like Larry
Speaker 2: to pick up and tell us what we need to
Speaker 2: know about it a little more going forward.
Speaker 6: Oh, thank goodness, Larry pulled me into this. You know,
Speaker 6: so we've actually worked together, I don't know, all of
Speaker 6: the last five six years, sharing as much as we can.
Speaker 6: Because so the way we're going to get to the
Speaker 6: bottom of this puzzle, you know, Laswell puzzle is when
Speaker 6: we share data, share its findings, share thoughts.
Speaker 2: Great great collaborative piece. Actually you both did at Lancer
Speaker 2: this year, Larry remotely and you in person, which was excellent.
Speaker 2: Now I didn't watch it live because I was busy
Speaker 2: doing a lot of other things, but I look back
Speaker 2: at it and uh man, you guys did an excellent
Speaker 2: job setting this book up in my mind at the
Speaker 2: Lanswer conference. But go ahead, go ahead, Sorry, I just
Speaker 2: want to.
Speaker 3: Point that out. So it was really good.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So, I mean, as Larry, you know, he started
Speaker 6: the whole ball rolling, and I just kind of added
Speaker 6: to it, you know, as it just picked It's like
Speaker 6: a snowball going downhill, just kept picking up steam and
Speaker 6: picking up pieces and just eventually turned into a good
Speaker 6: shape towards the end, as you can see.
Speaker 3: Yes, and.
Speaker 6: Eventually as life said, well, we've got to stop soon,
Speaker 6: you know, we just can't keep adding to this, you know,
Speaker 6: it just keeps growing and growing and growing. Wanting to
Speaker 6: make it readable after what far and fifty two pages?
Speaker 6: So right, right, right?
Speaker 5: Uh yeah, certainly there were other questions that could be asked,
Speaker 5: but the space to answer them, and I think I
Speaker 5: think that opens a very good point about the book,
Speaker 5: about the Oswald section and the other section, the framing section,
Speaker 5: if you will. One of the things we tried to
Speaker 5: go for in the book was a lot of balance,
Speaker 5: because we're we're we're taking positions on certain things, but
Speaker 5: we realize that there are counterpositions that have been around
Speaker 5: for a long time. So a lot of a lot
Speaker 5: of work went into saying, all right, this is our assessment.
Speaker 5: Other people think differently, and here's where you can find
Speaker 5: their view. So there was a lot of time spit
Speaker 5: putting in links and references into opposing views. So if
Speaker 5: somebody gets hooked on this who hasn't been in the
Speaker 5: game at all, they can check it out and go, well,
Speaker 5: all right, they've I like their picture better than your picture.
Speaker 4: Okay, fine. But I think a real important part.
Speaker 5: Of it is that what David brought to it, and Chuck,
Speaker 5: I think readers will this is really two books in one.
Speaker 5: It is a book on Lee Harvey Oswald, and the
Speaker 5: reason it's a different kind of book on Oswald is
Speaker 5: it's about Oswald over an extended period of time, because
Speaker 5: most of what all of us have written about before
Speaker 5: is Oswald at a point in time, at like a slice,
Speaker 5: which is which is what the Warrant Commission did, and
Speaker 5: slicing a person's personality and character apart is indeed cherry picking.
Speaker 5: I mean, whether you know that you're doing it intentionally,
Speaker 5: as Thorn Commission clearly did, or if you're doing it unintentionally,
Speaker 5: as I've done before in some of my writing, it's like,
Speaker 5: you know, Oswald, here's the picture of Oswald, and you
Speaker 5: know that's that's all I'm interested in. There's no question
Speaker 5: of is that consistent with Oswald throughout his life or
Speaker 5: is it not just take what's there, use it? But
Speaker 5: two thirds of the book is that kind of a book.
Speaker 5: It's it's an Oswell book. The last third of the
Speaker 5: book is where David's work made a huge difference and
Speaker 5: where the leading work Matthew Smith described deserves a great
Speaker 5: deal of credit for this because he opened up a
Speaker 5: lead that nobody had.
Speaker 4: Ever found before or stood before.
Speaker 5: And which led to actually the final third of this
Speaker 5: book essentially following that lead, not knowing if it was
Speaker 5: real or not, and then have everything fall into place
Speaker 5: to say, Lee, it looks like it was real. I
Speaker 5: wish Matthew were still around to see where his lead
Speaker 5: had gone. But David's work for the final third of
Speaker 5: the book, which is a speculative scenario of what OSWA
Speaker 5: was doing in the couple of months before the assassination,
Speaker 5: the week of the assassination, of the dayas assassination, really
Speaker 5: relies on David's work of tracing out this lead that
Speaker 5: Matthew Smith had established in the first place at Redbird
Speaker 5: Airport right and adding in and understanding of the CIA
Speaker 5: and CI operations out of JM Wave and CIA contacts
Speaker 5: in New Orleans that we didn't even.
Speaker 4: Know a decade ago.
Speaker 5: As a matter of fact, we didn't know some of
Speaker 5: the most key connections in New Orleans until two years
Speaker 5: ago while we were working on the book, and David
Speaker 5: found them.
Speaker 2: Right now, just for the listeners, real fast, Larry, you
Speaker 2: don't even get to New Orleans. This is the interesting
Speaker 2: to give an idea of what Larry's talking about regarding
Speaker 2: how long of a time period.
Speaker 3: They go over in this book.
Speaker 2: You don't get to New Orleans in this book until
Speaker 2: halfway through, Okay, literally, I mean I think it's almost
Speaker 2: exactly halfway through the book you land on New Orleans.
Speaker 3: I've never seen that before.
Speaker 2: New Orleans is almost like in the introduction to half
Speaker 2: of the people's books, right, it's like, hey, you know
Speaker 2: what before he was in Dallas, guess what he was
Speaker 2: in New Orleans? And everybody does that, right. This is
Speaker 2: a slow burn building the entire sort of lifespan of
Speaker 2: this kid. And again I say this kid because look,
Speaker 2: I'm fifty two years old now I'm looking back at
Speaker 2: a guy who lived twenty four years all right. This
Speaker 2: is not an old man. This is not somebody who
Speaker 2: lived long as far as we know, Okay, And it's
Speaker 2: weird because people have built five six, eight hundred page
Speaker 2: books off of nineteen sixty two to sixty three, and
Speaker 2: then they mentioned a little bit of fifty nine fifty eight, right,
Speaker 2: and that's it.
Speaker 3: That's all they talk about is a four year span.
Speaker 2: And you know, Kennedy's dead on Friday, Oswald's dead on Sunday,
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 3: I mean it's.
Speaker 2: Literally that fast, and they built eight hundred pages out
Speaker 2: of it. This is actually an examination which is different,
Speaker 2: very very different. I don't even know how to exactly
Speaker 2: explain it. But again, I think David's David's style. And
Speaker 2: see in the last part of the book, which I
Speaker 2: didn't finish yet, I'm going to get to the speculation.
Speaker 2: I think we're gonna have to do a whole thing
Speaker 2: about the speculation itself. But the Redbird thing you've written
Speaker 2: about before, Larry, how much does that change?
Speaker 5: By the way, the Redbird thing actually is two things.
Speaker 5: One thing is it all goes back to to a
Speaker 5: fellow named January Ray January, and I've been I worked
Speaker 5: with that lead, actually with Matthew Smith himself before his
Speaker 5: death and after his death, because certain things January revealed
Speaker 5: he would not allow to be put into print until
Speaker 5: after he passed away, and then you know, then you
Speaker 5: had to take his information and you couldn't work it
Speaker 5: with him. You had to reverse it, like verifying aircraft
Speaker 5: identity numbers. And the Redbird's story by itself probably has
Speaker 5: been in play for twenty years or more. But what
Speaker 5: David brought to it is it was always you know,
Speaker 5: could we confirm any parts of it?
Speaker 4: You know, he gave us Ray.
Speaker 5: January gave Matthew what he had seen, and then he
Speaker 5: passed away. How do you verify it? Well, amazingly enough,
Speaker 5: in David's work in GM wave and the people are
Speaker 5: working in projects in nineteen sixty three, you can actually
Speaker 5: identify the people that Ray January spoke to that he
Speaker 5: had no idea of who they really were other than
Speaker 5: they were coming coming to them from the CIA. That's
Speaker 5: just a kind of a subplot in all of this
Speaker 5: that developed on its own, with again, not like I
Speaker 5: said earlier, not looking, not having ind agenda, just kind
Speaker 5: of looking at it, and then at the end, go gee,
Speaker 5: it's amazing that this fell into place. I wasn't even
Speaker 5: looking for this because there are actually two independent stories
Speaker 5: about two different aircraft at Redbird.
Speaker 4: One of them doesn't relate to Lee Harvey Oswold at all.
Speaker 5: One does, but both, when you can tie them together,
Speaker 5: substantiate the credibility of Ray January.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 4: That's just this part of this whole thing.
Speaker 5: When when you get to a certain point, if you're lucky,
Speaker 5: all the pieces, the pieces that didn't fit before and
Speaker 5: weren't within the puzzle frame, it's like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 5: see where they go now.
Speaker 2: Right, Which is interesting because I think twenty five to
Speaker 2: thirty years ago, I think it's the first time I
Speaker 2: heard about Captain January, okay, but it was so vague that.
Speaker 3: I didn't know what to do with it.
Speaker 2: And then I read your article on it, and honestly, Larry,
Speaker 2: this is one of the ones I was like, well,
Speaker 2: this is interesting, but I don't know what to do
Speaker 2: with this. That's pretty much where where I left it,
Speaker 2: you know, and.
Speaker 4: I did either at the time, it wasn't.
Speaker 5: It wasn't until well we got information from the from
Speaker 5: am world, you know, talk about document disclosures. We didn't
Speaker 5: get those again until ten twelve years ago. And then
Speaker 5: the crypt busting, which we should refer to because David
Speaker 5: has been a big part of that with Bill Simpitch
Speaker 5: and others. We got the documents and we didn't know
Speaker 5: who they were talking about until we could.
Speaker 4: Get the crypts determined.
Speaker 5: Once that got through, you know, I guess one of
Speaker 5: the things that illustrates it all to me is I
Speaker 5: go back to some of the first books I read
Speaker 5: about the CIA and Cuba, and it's like everything is mysterious,
Speaker 5: everything is suspicious. But now in twenty twenty five, we're
Speaker 5: at the point where David can actually give you an
Speaker 5: organization chart of.
Speaker 4: The jam wave station.
Speaker 5: You know, when you got to that point, you really
Speaker 5: got some history you could work with.
Speaker 2: Right, So, David, what what would you say would be
Speaker 2: the you know, is it the Cryptonyms project that advanced
Speaker 2: that work, like Larry's saying, or would you say there's
Speaker 2: other factors that helped with that.
Speaker 6: Well, it's more and more no data gets released, you know,
Speaker 6: he's stopped. Like it's the pieces of the puzzle, the
Speaker 6: crips and the pseudonyms. You know, like what is who
Speaker 6: is am surf one? Well that's Frank Bartz. You know
Speaker 6: who's Frank Bartez. Oh he's the guy that met Lejave
Speaker 6: Oswald outside the courtroom. Oh, you know, so he's our cia,
Speaker 6: Yes he is, and you know and things like that.
Speaker 6: And who is he associating with? Well, his associate is
Speaker 6: so the Odio's uncle, you know usin greetat they hang
Speaker 6: together at Frank Bartz's house. Who do they hang with?
Speaker 6: Carlos bring Geer, Oh, the guy that no Oswald had
Speaker 6: the fight with. Who else did they hang with? Carlos Carroga?
Speaker 6: You know, Carlos Car I was the guy that went
Speaker 6: to Oswald's apartment, you know, to question him and brought
Speaker 6: him some flyers for you know, to pass out. So
Speaker 6: you know, eventually the pieces start to come in once
Speaker 6: you know who these people are, right, So you know,
Speaker 6: as far as the Redbird Airports airport leads this, the
Speaker 6: two of them, one was Wayne January said, but that
Speaker 6: a colonel come air Force colonel from Florida and a
Speaker 6: Cuban came to check out on an airplane that they wanted
Speaker 6: to use. Didn't say what it was for it's going
Speaker 6: to be I think it was the DC three C
Speaker 6: forty seven, I think, So they came to check that out.
Speaker 6: So once you start looking at jam wave, who this
Speaker 6: colonel would have been and digging in you find out
Speaker 6: his name is Colonel Banni Chavez, you know, and he
Speaker 6: was good friends with David Morales and they used to
Speaker 6: share a desk together at jam Wave in Miami and
Speaker 6: you know who the cube and be well, there's some
Speaker 6: clues that January gave us was that.
Speaker 3: She was the like.
Speaker 6: Chief of air Force, the Cuban Air Force for the
Speaker 6: Bay of Pigs. Now we didn't know all that way
Speaker 6: back then, do you no documents not being released, and
Speaker 6: we find out his name is you know, Banny Viafanya,
Speaker 6: you know. So now we know who that guy is,
Speaker 6: you know who is he? He's started tracing that path down.
Speaker 6: We find out he's working for a commando's man bis.
Speaker 6: He's out of JM Wave and working for David Moraleys
Speaker 6: you know, and he's the guy that ended up saying,
Speaker 6: you know, you know on Thursday said you know, Wayne,
Speaker 6: he says, what's going to happen is they're going to
Speaker 6: kill your president on Friday.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: So we actually have that report. So a lot of
Speaker 6: clues that you know, come out of that whole Redbird Airport.
Speaker 6: The second piece is, you know, uh, there was a
Speaker 6: man and a woman in a car and somebody sitting
Speaker 6: in the back seat that January identify. I said, it
Speaker 6: looks like learvey oswell to me, you know so, and
Speaker 6: they wanted to rent a small little Sesna to get
Speaker 6: to Mexico. In January thought it was I thought, they're
Speaker 6: actually going to try and hijacket and they wanted him
Speaker 6: to fly it there. And he just says, no, no way,
Speaker 6: no way am I doing this. I mean, so there's
Speaker 6: a lot of details like that. Who would those people be,
Speaker 6: you know, things like that. Came up with some possibilities
Speaker 6: and things. But that's what, you know, the crips and
Speaker 6: the people and you know, the whole looking at the
Speaker 6: big projects, how it all comes together, if that makes sense.
Speaker 6: But I'm not going down too far a rabbit hole here.
Speaker 2: No, but there's a lot of action here which involves
Speaker 2: the people that have always been suspected, right. It ties
Speaker 2: to the Bay Pigs, It ties to those people. It
Speaker 2: ties to the Castro pro Castro anti groups, different ones,
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's the d r U or it's
Speaker 2: the you know however they described the Cuban Directorate, you
Speaker 2: know whatever, and then you have this other group.
Speaker 3: Okay, all this stuff comes.
Speaker 2: Together around this guy who's supposed to be nobody, Lee
Speaker 2: Arvy Oswald. You know, why is he involved in all this?
Speaker 2: And that's the big question that people have had for
Speaker 2: a long time. But it's always been because there's all
Speaker 2: these unidentified people. We know who Sylvia Odio is, we
Speaker 2: know who her family is, we know who her uncle is.
Speaker 2: They're naturally part of this situation. But then comes all
Speaker 2: these other individuals, right, the one weird visit everybody talks about,
Speaker 2: but it goes beyond that, and it always has. But
Speaker 2: we didn't know who these people were. That one guy says, look,
Speaker 2: he looks like a Cuban. The other guy says, this
Speaker 2: guy looks like a white guy. I don't trust this guy.
Speaker 2: This guy looks like he's military, back and forth everything.
Speaker 2: And you got a loudmouth like Berengeart, right, who is
Speaker 2: in on some of this stuff too, But he's naturally
Speaker 2: involved because he's anti Castro. And why is Learvy Oswald
Speaker 2: fighting seeming staged fight? A lot of people said, you know,
Speaker 2: in the street in New Orleans, which get people a
Speaker 2: hint about that a little bit like about that incident itself,
Speaker 2: which we've all heard about a million times. H if
Speaker 2: you ever study downs Well at all. I mean, just
Speaker 2: talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think one of the things and that when
Speaker 5: that's considered all by itself, you know, it's you know,
Speaker 5: it's one thing like this is really could this be coincidence?
Speaker 5: Obviously somebody is making this happen, you know what, what's
Speaker 5: the net result of this? It?
Speaker 4: You know, But what.
Speaker 5: Emerges from a longer look at Lee Harvey Oswell is
Speaker 5: in terms of Oswall's own personal agenda, it's it's quite
Speaker 5: consistent that there's nothing really that strange about the fact
Speaker 5: Lee Harvey Oswald, by that point in time, for some
Speaker 5: four months, even before he had left Dallas, had started
Speaker 5: communicating with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, had actually
Speaker 5: started leafleting in Dallas UH and been chased off by
Speaker 5: police in Dallas.
Speaker 4: Through a department store downtown Dallas.
Speaker 5: It's not new for Lee Harvey oswel to do this.
Speaker 5: He had he had he had been leafleting near the docks, UH,
Speaker 5: near an aircraft carrier in New Orleans before this. So
Speaker 5: the fact that he's out there leafleting for Cuba is
Speaker 5: totally consistent. But also you can see from his own
Speaker 5: writing when he's he's been writing the fair play for
Speaker 5: Cuba Committee and trying to present himself as a street activist,
Speaker 5: but it's really kind of not working for him because
Speaker 5: you know, he gets chased off of places nobody's paying attention.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 5: Oswell's a really creative guy, and we see from David's
Speaker 5: work and looking at names in Oswell's notebook, Oswall was
Speaker 5: starting to do is his homework in New Orleans. He
Speaker 5: was inquiring into Cuban groups, Cuban stores, TV and radio outlets.
Speaker 5: Oswell was clearly working towards Okay, I've got to make
Speaker 5: if I'm going to do this and I'm going to
Speaker 5: make a name for myself, I need to do something
Speaker 5: more sensational.
Speaker 4: So when we get up to the time of the.
Speaker 5: Street leafleting, we know Oswald already knows.
Speaker 4: The local media.
Speaker 5: Oswell will go on for the next few weeks to
Speaker 5: be kind of a darling of the local media and
Speaker 5: be on radio and TV. There's every reason to spec
Speaker 5: that Oswell because he went to the trouble of actually
Speaker 5: taking some of his limited funds to hire a couple
Speaker 5: of guys to leaflet with him, and everybody's got to
Speaker 5: be there in a white shirt and a tie and
Speaker 5: look real, you know, straight make a big deal out
Speaker 5: of this. There's no surprise that the TV crew shows up,
Speaker 5: because it's speculative. But of course Oz will probably call
Speaker 5: them and said, I'm gonna be here, and I'm you know,
Speaker 5: something important is happening downtown today.
Speaker 4: You need to cover it.
Speaker 5: And so he's already set bring gear up because bring
Speaker 5: gear as already they've already been questioning whether Oswald is
Speaker 5: really pro or anti Castro Bringers place is only.
Speaker 4: A few blocks away.
Speaker 5: As soon as he the word gets to him, you know,
Speaker 5: you can just imagine Osweald absolutely knows what is going
Speaker 5: to happen. And when Carlos shows up, what does he say?
Speaker 4: Hit me? You know, like, okay, we need to add
Speaker 4: some drama to this whole thing.
Speaker 5: And I will say in the book, we demonstrate that
Speaker 5: Oswald can be something of a drama queen. Oswald knows
Speaker 5: how to get attention. And when you just cherry pick
Speaker 5: that and go, oh, well here and there, and when
Speaker 5: you look at the picture all together, it is not
Speaker 5: unusual to find Oswald doing dramatic things to draw attention
Speaker 5: to himself.
Speaker 4: But when he does, he obviously.
Speaker 5: Always draws attention to himself and admits it, which really
Speaker 5: raises the big question, why would he do the most
Speaker 5: sensational thing in the world in Dallas and then deny
Speaker 5: it like no, not me, have no idea what you're
Speaker 5: talking about, right, that long wind answer, Chuck.
Speaker 3: No, no problem.
Speaker 2: But David, I want you to talk about this because
Speaker 2: to me, it's the wildest thing. Because Oswald, as far
Speaker 2: as I understand from anybody who personally knew him, not
Speaker 2: a guy who likes to spend money. And yet yeah,
Speaker 2: he goes and hires temporary guys to help him hand
Speaker 2: out this stuff. He puts this on on the street.
Speaker 2: Now again, perspective nineteen sixty you know, nineteen sixties America. Okay,
Speaker 2: you got a camera out there, TV station out there
Speaker 2: that's going to travel around the neighborhood.
Speaker 3: Hey, hey there's TV. There's TV.
Speaker 2: Something must be happening because it was a big deal.
Speaker 2: You know, nowadays see a TV you know, they show
Speaker 2: up in their own cars and they hold up a
Speaker 2: selfie stick and record off a cell phone. Okay, but
Speaker 2: back then you needed a crew. A van showed up,
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, and there's clearly film of this
Speaker 2: right before. Right, so you know, what are your thoughts
Speaker 2: on that? Because it was always seeing in isolation? Isn't
Speaker 2: this strange? Okay, it looks stage blah blah. But the
Speaker 2: fact that you know, again, his personality not somebody who
Speaker 2: likes to part with money, uh, spending the money and
Speaker 2: putting this effort in to create this thing that he
Speaker 2: knows is going to cause the star clearly to provoke
Speaker 2: bearing gear. Whether bearing gear is tipped off or not
Speaker 2: is irrelevant. He's gonna find out and he's gonna get
Speaker 2: himself involved. I mean, it's just like a guarantee almost.
Speaker 2: He set it up this way, and I think Oswald
Speaker 2: set it up this way.
Speaker 3: But what do you think?
Speaker 6: Yeah, well you have to go back just a little bit.
Speaker 6: Oswald again. What he wanted to get to Cuba. To
Speaker 6: get to Cuba, you have to he wanted to learn
Speaker 6: how to speak Spanish. Right, No, so he actually went
Speaker 6: to h sorry guys, no, no, take take a minute.
Speaker 2: If you need to catch your breath, no, put no
Speaker 2: problem there. But yeah, but but yeah, obviously he needs
Speaker 2: to know how to speak Spanish if he wants to
Speaker 2: go to Cuba and operate there at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 6: Right, So who did he? He approached Honesto Rodriguez at
Speaker 6: the Modern School of Lag which is the Burlett School,
Speaker 6: and he wanted to learn how to speak Spanish there,
Speaker 6: so he approached Onsto and he says, hey, I learn
Speaker 6: how to speak Spanish. And then Oswald started speaking in
Speaker 6: Russian quite a bit, and Onsto said, yeah, my Russian
Speaker 6: is okay, but it's not as good as Oswald's. I
Speaker 6: couldn't keep up, so I just you know, stopped talking
Speaker 6: to him there. But then Oswald asked him and says, so,
Speaker 6: what are the who the anti Castro Cubans around? Who
Speaker 6: can I talk to? So Honesto gave him various addresses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough, No no problem, take your time, take
Speaker 2: a time, because this is interesting. He's asking this guy,
Speaker 2: you know, look, I want to find the anti Castro
Speaker 2: Cuban people. Meanwhile he's out there openly, uh you know,
Speaker 2: going going and leafletting.
Speaker 3: Shortly thereafter, right, yeah.
Speaker 6: He actually actually gave him his friend, Colin Springier was
Speaker 6: his best, good buddy, you know, his addresses. Go see
Speaker 6: Carlos here and talk to him, you know, And that's
Speaker 6: when Oswald went to go see Brigier and brought him,
Speaker 6: you know, his marine manual on you know, out of fight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the exchange where he gives him the
Speaker 2: basic you know, his his marine handbook and you know,
Speaker 2: as a pledge, I want to join the anti Castro thing.
Speaker 2: And then yeah, go ahead, that's all right, David, take
Speaker 2: you take your time, take your time. I understand, believe me.
Speaker 2: I've had to close my Micael more than once lately.
Speaker 2: It's been a thing. But uh yeah, look, so this
Speaker 2: is good.
Speaker 6: Yeah. So Nesto and Carlos very good friends. And Nesto
Speaker 6: where this becomes key is that his brother is Emilio Rodriguez.
Speaker 6: This is key because Emilio Rodriguez is a high level
Speaker 6: CIA officer out of JM Wave. So you know, brother's talk,
Speaker 6: you know, So Emilio, he is very close to the
Speaker 6: same names. Again, David Morales. Morales used to be his boss,
Speaker 6: and when Emilio was in Havana, you know, prior to
Speaker 6: the Bay of Pigs and Emilio's Who's larry to save me.
Speaker 6: Amelia was also close to Tony Schwarza, who was also
Speaker 6: another major player at jam Wave, in charge of all
Speaker 6: the amots. So this is a really close connection as
Speaker 6: to how Oswald was seen by certain people at jam
Speaker 6: Waves that you know through Honesto, and so Esto was
Speaker 6: also close, you know, go back a little bit. He
Speaker 6: was kind of close to uh guy Banister because Honesto
Speaker 6: used to run the CRC Cuban Revolutionary Console and he
Speaker 6: used to rent the office at five forty four Camp Street.
Speaker 6: This is our nest though until nineteen sixty two. So
Speaker 6: if you remember, Oswald had Carlos close Lamont Flyers right
Speaker 6: with the five forty four Camp Street.
Speaker 2: Right, So this is the Camp Street thing, the connection
Speaker 2: to take take him inute, to take him minute, This
Speaker 2: is the Camp Street connection. And also what strikes me
Speaker 2: at this point is that some of the random, seemingly
Speaker 2: random names to come out of Dean Andrews's mouth, okay,
Speaker 2: are right there or close to a bunch of people
Speaker 2: that we now know were connected to these things, which
Speaker 2: is weird because Andrews is like, look, I just gave
Speaker 2: him any names I could come up with, but these
Speaker 2: are probably real names, which is really strange and brings
Speaker 2: this whole nexus back around, right. You know, was good
Speaker 2: Guy Banister and.
Speaker 6: Stressed connection is that Esto used to have the keys
Speaker 6: to five forty four Camp Street right in. Oswald at
Speaker 6: one time told well Uh in correspondence that he had
Speaker 6: an office that he used for a few days and
Speaker 6: that would have been five to forty four Camp Street.
Speaker 6: So shows a little bit closer connection between Esto and
Speaker 6: Oswald because Esto had the keys even after you know,
Speaker 6: they no longer paid rent there. So you know, again
Speaker 6: Essa was close to Banister, he admitted, yeah, pianist, I
Speaker 6: knew all those guys that were close to me. You
Speaker 6: also know new George Lincoln Rockwell, you Knowessa was a
Speaker 6: bit of a Nazi if you if you want to
Speaker 6: say so, I mean that's it. Again. Esto was close
Speaker 6: to Frank Bartes. You know, they'd all meet at his
Speaker 6: house close to so via Odio's uncle. So you can
Speaker 6: see how Odeo's visitors Oswald and the two guys that
Speaker 6: went there, where they got their information from they get
Speaker 6: from these guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now it makes sense that they had this idea
Speaker 2: and this presentation about you know, we get your uncle
Speaker 2: involved here, we want you involved all this kind of thing,
Speaker 2: and they meanwhile they're talking about this guy Oswald, and
Speaker 2: you know, it seems to come out of nowhere until
Speaker 2: you realize that it makes sense in that nexus.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 6: Well, anyway, Larry, that seemed to have got lost.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Larry, are you with us still? Let's see I
Speaker 2: might he may have dropped off somehow. Oh boy, I'm
Speaker 2: sorry about that. So David, I'll tell you what. I'll
Speaker 2: complete this with you if you want, or we could
Speaker 2: try and take a break and see if we can
Speaker 2: catch Larry again. But gee, I don't see him there.
Speaker 2: Let's see what we can put him back in real fast? Okay, yes,
Speaker 2: see if you're pull him back in and I'll finish
Speaker 2: up a few things. Yes, if you don't mind, you
Speaker 2: go go go ahead and continue about this nexus though,
Speaker 2: if you don't mind, and I'll see if I can
Speaker 2: grab Larry again.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So a lot of what's kind of new to us
Speaker 6: is that Sylvia Audio's uncle was actually a CIA asset,
Speaker 6: and his case officer was Carl Trenton, who worked out
Speaker 6: of the Cuban desk at headquarters. They wanted him to
Speaker 6: be a cutout, obviously, Queta no sy the Audio's uncle
Speaker 6: to be a cutout.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are Larry. Great.
Speaker 2: I pulled you back in because I somehow lost you
Speaker 2: there I don't know why.
Speaker 5: Uh, it's my internet is down.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so what was my internet?
Speaker 4: Basically?
Speaker 3: All right, well just came back.
Speaker 2: Well, we'll take a minute here and let let David
Speaker 2: continue with he's talking about the Nexus in New Orleans, uh,
Speaker 2: and how it expanded and started to encompass a lot
Speaker 2: of known names. But just mute out for a few
Speaker 2: minutes here and let it build up a little strength
Speaker 2: and we'll bring you back into the conversation to close
Speaker 2: this out. But David, sorry about the interruption to what
Speaker 2: you were talking about there. Back to the odio situation, right,
Speaker 2: and who it is was being sort of pulled into
Speaker 2: this go ahead.
Speaker 6: Yeah, her uncle, Augustine gree Todd, was actually a CIA asset.
Speaker 6: It's got a huge too one file yead A case
Speaker 6: officer Collin Trenton worked out of the Cuban Desk Special
Speaker 6: Affairs staff, using him to recruit his uncle out of Canada.
Speaker 6: So he ended up becoming CI asked asset just up
Speaker 6: until just before eleven sixty three, which I find very interesting.
Speaker 6: Trent what else about gree Todd? Yeah, Also he was
Speaker 6: close to Tony Verona. I don't know if you remember
Speaker 6: who Tony Verona was He was one of the original
Speaker 6: guys that were going to assassinate Castro, along with Johnny Roselli,
Speaker 6: Bill Harvey and that crew he had. You know, he
Speaker 6: was the guy that was gonna ring the pills to
Speaker 6: have Castro assassinated. He was that close to Tony vveronavver
Speaker 6: own estate at his house on eleven, fourteen sixty three.
Speaker 6: You know, it's just to show you how close these
Speaker 6: guys were, right, You know, these guys weren't inconsequential. They
Speaker 6: were connected, They knew people, they knew no a lot
Speaker 6: of the names that were surfaced over the years as
Speaker 6: possibilities in the assassination.
Speaker 2: Right, well, and again, all of them tying together around
Speaker 2: this one particular location and around this particular time period
Speaker 2: from the summer of nineteen sixty three into the fall
Speaker 2: and then at the end of the fall is the assassination.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, if you look at Sylvia Odio's uncle
Speaker 6: was at Oswald's court appearance, along with you know, bring Gear,
Speaker 6: Frank bartz On, Aesto Rodriguez. All these people were there
Speaker 6: in court. They wanted to see no Oswald, no in court,
Speaker 6: you know, so, which is amazing I think right, So
Speaker 6: they all knew who Oswald was and so he was
Speaker 6: no secret there to all these people.
Speaker 2: So one thing that's undeniable anyway is this idiocy that
Speaker 2: has always been put out by the CIA. You know,
Speaker 2: we had no idea who he was, right like that.
Speaker 2: That's that's garbage. That's for sure. Now, whether that means
Speaker 2: anything or not as to you know, whether he is
Speaker 2: actually the assassin, I don't even want to get into
Speaker 2: that question. We're just studying this guy and his movements
Speaker 2: and who he's around and who he's connected to here,
Speaker 2: and you can draw your own conclusions from it.
Speaker 3: But it's it's too much to just be a coincidence.
Speaker 3: It's just that simple.
Speaker 2: Larry, I kind of want to go, do you for
Speaker 2: a sort of a final word on this and sort
Speaker 2: of close this out if your internet is strong enough
Speaker 2: and if you're feeling up to it, what do you
Speaker 2: think is the key important thing that is different about
Speaker 2: this book? Because as I said, I I've never seen
Speaker 2: one constructed this way. I've never seen the the time
Speaker 2: taken on Oswald that's been taken here, and the breakdowns,
Speaker 2: the sections, the way they're laid out also never been
Speaker 2: done before. You know, for instance, one one chapter, I
Speaker 2: found it kind of ironic Oswald and the CIA. Uh
Speaker 2: And I remember reading a book by that title some
Speaker 2: years ago that I had trouble with. Anyway, I don't
Speaker 2: have trouble with your chapter anyhow, Larry, how would you
Speaker 2: break this down?
Speaker 5: I think I think the big difference is that we
Speaker 5: have all me included, Okay, looked at Oswald as a tool.
Speaker 4: You know, as something that's that is being used.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that doesn't mean that Oswald was not being used,
Speaker 5: but it doesn't mean that he was being used wittingly.
Speaker 5: And I don't think we've often gone far enough back
Speaker 5: in the time as we did in the book to
Speaker 5: go what's the real Oswald? What are his interests? What
Speaker 5: are his world views? Is he just taking orders from somebody?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 5: We see him in all these different interesting situations that
Speaker 5: you know, did half a dozen different agencies contact him
Speaker 5: at different times and give him different orders? And he
Speaker 5: just willingly shifts from one agenda to another agenda. Whatever
Speaker 5: anybody is selling him to do this week, he does,
Speaker 5: even if it, even if it seems to be in conflict,
Speaker 5: like he just is a puppet. But when you look
Speaker 5: at his life history and his character and his personality.
Speaker 5: A couple of things really stand out from his teenage
Speaker 5: years on, from his school years on. Is one thing
Speaker 5: that stands out is Oswald never willingly took orders from anybody.
Speaker 5: There's nobody that knew him or ever would offer testimony
Speaker 5: that he was an order taker that would just blindly
Speaker 5: follow instructions.
Speaker 4: That's not Lee Harvey Oswall See.
Speaker 3: That's a key thing.
Speaker 8: Also.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but hang on, Larry, that's a key thing because
Speaker 2: whether you trust Ruth Paine or not, she makes that case,
Speaker 2: whether you trust her his childhood friends and what.
Speaker 3: That means he should they make that case.
Speaker 2: His own mother comes out and says, look, I had
Speaker 2: problems with him. I couldn't get him to, you know,
Speaker 2: do this or that.
Speaker 3: He's played.
Speaker 2: He's a true at New York City not an easy
Speaker 2: place to be a truant, by the way, a lot
Speaker 2: of things going on.
Speaker 3: This is not somebody who.
Speaker 2: Just comports with things because he's told he doesn't take orders. Well,
Speaker 2: you got problems in the Marine Corps, Larry. I mean
Speaker 2: we know that from his record, right.
Speaker 5: But I think one of the most strike things that
Speaker 5: and of course you've talked with her institute of its
Speaker 5: and we just have an immense amount of background from
Speaker 5: Tenevitz that didn't get used correctly. Okay, but Oswell may
Speaker 5: be the only person in the world, certainly the only American,
Speaker 5: but maybe even the only one in the Soviet Union
Speaker 5: whoever staged a workstopage personal strike in a Russian factory.
Speaker 5: I mean, this is someone who when he became fed
Speaker 5: up with a bureaucracy in the factory, he literally stopped working.
Speaker 5: It's like, you know, I'm on strike. And his supervisor,
Speaker 5: who was actually a close friend and he hung out
Speaker 5: with the family and his girls and everything, it's making
Speaker 5: him look really bad.
Speaker 4: And Oswell is.
Speaker 5: Just, you know, he's good about principle and he's always
Speaker 5: about principle and what he thinks is right, you know.
Speaker 4: And so just another example of no.
Speaker 5: If Oswell is in sync with you, he can be
Speaker 5: you know, if you agree with his views and whatever.
Speaker 4: He talks to you, he's friends with you. He can
Speaker 4: be a great guy. If you're not, he's not.
Speaker 5: And the thing about that is his world views from
Speaker 5: his teen years when he writes the Young.
Speaker 4: Socialist Federation on are the same. They don't change.
Speaker 5: He's Oswald's view of the world is all about economic justice,
Speaker 5: racial justice. Something he's probably never gonna find, but he's
Speaker 5: going to go looking for it. And that kind of
Speaker 5: screams out of his real personal history that A doesn't
Speaker 5: take orders B. He's got a view of what he's
Speaker 5: looking for, and see, he would just keep looking for
Speaker 5: it until he finds it, even admitting to a friend
Speaker 5: like de Mornshield that he wrote realizes he may never
Speaker 5: find it.
Speaker 4: But he's going to keep looking.
Speaker 2: Which is an interesting perspective because it's always been like, well,
Speaker 2: he was used this way, he was used that way,
Speaker 2: and that doesn't mean that he wasn't because you could
Speaker 2: just take a guy like this and sort of direct
Speaker 2: him with a prediction about which way he's going to go.
Speaker 2: And we talked about that before, about the use of ass.
Speaker 2: That's right, some mad sets. You meet with them, you
Speaker 2: tell them listen, you're on an important mission. Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: This is the way that a lot of people perceived Oswald.
Speaker 2: That's not necessarily the way you got to do it.
Speaker 5: You could just well you and I've talked about this
Speaker 5: in terms of con games, Right, if you really want
Speaker 5: to use someone and get them to go along deniably,
Speaker 5: like Okay, you pick somebody who's doing something they want
Speaker 5: to do and convince them that you want to participate
Speaker 5: in that, Like here, I'm offering you a better way
Speaker 5: to do what you want to do.
Speaker 4: Uh, And they don't even have to know that.
Speaker 5: That's the easiest form of manipulation is to find somebody
Speaker 5: whose agenda is going the same way yours is. If
Speaker 5: you if you want a propaganda campaign against Castro subversion
Speaker 5: of Americans, you find somebody who's already engaged in a
Speaker 5: pro Castro campaign and.
Speaker 4: You use them.
Speaker 5: You don't have to give them any orders, and it's
Speaker 5: the perfect deniability. Well, it was much to use the
Speaker 5: word entangle, you know, entangles, the very keyword.
Speaker 2: Well, it's much like the use of the mob to
Speaker 2: try and assassinate Castro right where it's like, look, their
Speaker 2: agenda matches, so they want Castro out of there, So
Speaker 2: why don't we use these guys because they're willing to
Speaker 2: kill and they're in that business. Let him do it,
Speaker 2: let's help them. That doesn't mean that you let them
Speaker 2: in on the excuse me, the whole of the operation. Okay,
Speaker 2: it just means I can direct these guys, they might
Speaker 2: accomplish my goal for me, and you can. And what
Speaker 2: you grab, You grab a guy like Roselli who's already
Speaker 2: failed at a couple of things. He's trying to work
Speaker 2: his Hollywood angle.
Speaker 3: He likes it.
Speaker 2: You get a couple other guys who are losing money
Speaker 2: because they can't get back into Cuba. Right, they took
Speaker 2: over the casino what day three? I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: what are you gonna do? You get these guys who
Speaker 2: have the same agenda. It doesn't mean you read them
Speaker 2: into everything. Okay, you just.
Speaker 4: Well what uswell did.
Speaker 5: He's a lot of time, effort and a little money
Speaker 5: in New Orleans, you know, establishing a resume from because
Speaker 5: he wanted to get the cube.
Speaker 4: He believed in the Cuban Revolution. That's what he was
Speaker 4: reading about. He's writing about it. So he's on the radar. Right,
Speaker 4: as David has said, everybody.
Speaker 5: Who's connected to see I knows this. Emilie or Rodriguez
Speaker 5: and Miami station is this.
Speaker 4: So what do you do? It's easy enough.
Speaker 5: You just find a couple of antic astro who will
Speaker 5: get in contact that say hey, you're all right, we're
Speaker 5: really looking for Americans who want to support the revolution.
Speaker 4: You're you're great. We're gonna wait all for you.
Speaker 3: Larry's Larry, because you're breaking up a lot.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna let David kind of conclude this program if
Speaker 2: you don't mind hang on though, because I want to.
Speaker 2: Uh again, there's gonna be links with the show notes
Speaker 2: that will show you where to go get the book.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: It's published by Skyhorse, The Oswald Puzzle. The author are
Speaker 2: Larry Hancock and David Boylin. I'm sorry I always say
Speaker 2: your name that way because it sounds wrong.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: And and speaking to somebody from another country a couple
Speaker 2: of months back, they called you David Bolin, and I said, no,
Speaker 2: there's a why there. So I don't know how to
Speaker 2: do it right, but I also know.
Speaker 3: You're doing it wrong. Uh. So it was kind of
Speaker 3: a funny conversation when we talked. We talked about you.
Speaker 2: Uh, it's boiling, boiling, okay, so I'm doing it close
Speaker 2: to right, boiling.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I stretched the A, which is wrong.
Speaker 2: Okay, boiling all right, anyway back to it, I want
Speaker 2: to just ask you a final question here, which is
Speaker 2: kind of off the wall, but it's one of these
Speaker 2: things that's always annoyed me. They they try to tie
Speaker 2: Oswald to the mob connections, let's just say in the case,
Speaker 2: and it's always annoyed me because simply because his uncle
Speaker 2: was a knock around guy doesn't mean crap in my mind.
Speaker 2: You know, I can tell you personal stories about people
Speaker 2: that had the had the same last name who were
Speaker 2: associated to a cousins, uncles, even their parents may be involved,
Speaker 2: it doesn't directly lead to that person being involved with
Speaker 2: anybody who's in that organization. And I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: strange because then they go, what about the you know,
Speaker 2: Dixie Mafia, totally different organization, only the name in common.
Speaker 2: It's a different secret society, and people don't understand it
Speaker 2: because it's like, well, mafia mafia, no Oswald. I can't
Speaker 2: find credible ties to mob people with Oswald. I can't
Speaker 2: not in my mind, and only because I have knowledge
Speaker 2: about how the underworld works and it's just not there.
Speaker 2: But did you address it in the book, and if not,
Speaker 2: did Larry address it? Did you see it? And what
Speaker 2: are your thoughts on that? And then we're going to
Speaker 2: close this out because I think people have plenty to
Speaker 2: dig into in this book that we didn't talk about,
Speaker 2: and plenty of good leads that we've given them here
Speaker 2: in this conversation. So did you address or did Larry
Speaker 2: address it in the book as far as you're.
Speaker 9: Aware, No, we didn't, and why no, because we don't
Speaker 9: believe there's any real connection to organized crime. Let's call
Speaker 9: it that, thank you, thank you, because though I can't
Speaker 9: find it, and I've seen many authors do this, and
Speaker 9: it's just because of his uncle. I mean, you can
Speaker 9: see his uncle's connections, right yeah, yeah, but that doesn't
Speaker 9: tie him to it. And it's just it's not there.
Speaker 9: It's not because I don't want it to be there.
Speaker 9: If it was there, this would be easy for me.
Speaker 2: Matter of fact, I would have written a book on
Speaker 2: Oswald if I found organized crime.
Speaker 3: Connections to him.
Speaker 2: But it's not there anyway, David, you're basically agreeing with.
Speaker 6: Me, right right, one hundred percent. Okay, it's not there.
Speaker 6: We can see where the connections are.
Speaker 2: Now that's not to say that there aren't possibilities in
Speaker 2: the case. Okay, I don't say that with absolute certainty,
Speaker 2: but I do say then when it comes to the
Speaker 2: character of Lee Rby Oswald, this guy, he's got intelligence
Speaker 2: people around him, he's got political activists around him, he's
Speaker 2: got strange characters who are sort of involved in some
Speaker 2: shady business. For sure, there's some gun runners and this
Speaker 2: and that, but they may be tangentially connected.
Speaker 3: He is not.
Speaker 2: This is a problem that is solved right here, because well,
Speaker 2: why is it not in the book? Much like when
Speaker 2: the guy asked me this year at Lancer came out
Speaker 2: to bother me in between sessions. He says, how come
Speaker 2: nobody's talking about the Secret Service agent who put the
Speaker 2: bullet on the.
Speaker 3: Stretcher, you know?
Speaker 2: And I said, well maybe because after examining it for
Speaker 2: a year the moment majority of us decided there's nothing
Speaker 2: to it and that's why you're not hearing about it.
Speaker 2: And he said, that's not right there. You guys can
Speaker 2: get why would a guy say that. I said, okay, look,
Speaker 2: that's your opinion, But you asked me. That's how I
Speaker 2: told you.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? And I love that.
Speaker 2: Basically this is up David and I have in common,
Speaker 2: which is you asked me.
Speaker 3: I answered it. That's all I can give you.
Speaker 2: You know, if I can find it, I'll find it,
Speaker 2: and if not, I gotta tell you it's not there.
Speaker 2: And I love that about your work. You don't just
Speaker 2: sit there and say, well, I'll take your speculation and
Speaker 2: try to run with it. No, you say, let me
Speaker 2: see where the evidence is and let's see if it
Speaker 2: can hang together. And if it can't, maybe it's not evidence,
Speaker 2: maybe it's just an incident. But if things hang together,
Speaker 2: we got a story to tell. That's like how a
Speaker 2: prosecutor should function, you know, And that's how the prosecutory
Speaker 2: brief should have been written about this guy to begin with.
Speaker 2: But the Warrant Commission didn't do that, and that's why
Speaker 2: we're still stuck with this story. Anyway, David, any final
Speaker 2: comment on this before I see if Larry can make
Speaker 2: a final comment on the Oswaldt puzzle again available through Skyhorse.
Speaker 2: It's got a really nice black and white dust jacket.
Speaker 2: I have a hard copy, a hard back version here.
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's going to be a paperback
Speaker 2: or audiobook. I'm hoping this becomes an audiobook, by the way,
Speaker 2: but I guess we'll have to see as publication goes
Speaker 2: forward with Skyhorse Slash, Simon and Schuster.
Speaker 3: But anyway, I.
Speaker 6: Think Skyhorse said is listen here a year before the
Speaker 6: paperback version comes out, so be it a year at least.
Speaker 3: Did they give any hitting on the audiobook?
Speaker 6: Nothing. I haven't heard anything on about the audio book.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, either way, I'm telling you now this is
Speaker 2: an essential book for the study of Lee Harvey Oswald
Speaker 2: and in my mind, an essential volume when it comes
Speaker 2: to the case. And yeah, Larry Hedcock and David Boylan.
Speaker 2: But anyway, final comment on it, David.
Speaker 6: Well, I think that's I think we covered what we
Speaker 6: wanted to do.
Speaker 2: Actually, okay, Larry, would you like to drop something on
Speaker 2: us just before we close out?
Speaker 6: Larry's disappeared again.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, Well, then we'll leave it to your imagination
Speaker 2: books and just close it out like this.
Speaker 3: David, thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2: Of course, I think Larry Hancock I'm always glad to
Speaker 2: have him along, but I guess he's having Internet troubles coincidentally,
Speaker 2: So it is what it is. And no matter who
Speaker 2: you are, where you are, when you are, remember I
Speaker 2: merely chilly.
Speaker 3: All of you are indeed the.
Speaker 1: Effect oh Chili dot com.
Speaker 6: Dot com radio network.
Speaker 7: Yo Yolis. Doug Campbell, host of the Dallas Action podcast
Speaker 7: presented by Wall Street Window, and you are listening to
Speaker 7: the o'chill effect, revelation through conversation.
Speaker 10: In Denial, Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks by
Speaker 10: Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of US covert
Speaker 10: operations and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book In
Speaker 10: Denial rips the cover off many of them, using new files.
Speaker 10: It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no
Speaker 10: one has ever written about before. It shows why it
Speaker 10: really failed and why the United States did not.
Speaker 11: Earn from it. It also shows why other countries today
Speaker 11: are doing secret operations with more success. This is the
Speaker 11: book that puts what some want to deny into the light.
Speaker 11: In Denial, Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks Larry Hancock.
Speaker 11: For more information, go to Larry hyphen Handcock dot com.
Speaker 11: Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon. In
Speaker 11: digital or physical.
Speaker 8: Force, The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great
Speaker 8: national transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency
Speaker 8: in the context of the times and reveals never before
Speaker 8: published information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would
Speaker 8: not have been assassinated if he had been president two
Speaker 8: hundred years ago. His assassination took place in the context
Speaker 8: of the Cold War and the rise of the national
Speaker 8: security state. Before World War II, the United States was
Speaker 8: a continental republic. In the decade that followed, it became
Speaker 8: an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only
Speaker 8: wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that there were short
Speaker 8: range missiles on the island armed with nuclear warheads that
Speaker 8: they could not destroy because they were on mobile launchers.
Speaker 8: Their invasion could have led to a Third World War,
Speaker 8: and they wanted to go to war anyway. The War
Speaker 8: State by Michael Swanson reveals why and will show you
Speaker 8: what President Kennedy was up against. For more information, the
Speaker 8: Warstate dot.
Speaker 12: Com revelation through conversation, Go ahead, call it about the
Speaker 12: JFA assassination.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, what do you want to know?
Speaker 12: Toddy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew? Ruby and
Speaker 12: Barrie answer weapons?
Speaker 2: Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels.
Speaker 2: It doesn't make me a wagon.
Speaker 12: But okay, Oswald on the building and trying to prevent
Speaker 12: the murder of John Kennedy, Come on now, has a
Speaker 12: real effort on the DFA assassination inlaim.
Speaker 2: Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her
Speaker 2: own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy
Speaker 2: of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words
Speaker 2: and the known evidence in the case to get at
Speaker 2: well a different perspective.
Speaker 3: Let's say you.
Speaker 2: Can get Judith Barry Baker in her own words from
Speaker 2: the author himself, signed if you request it by contacting
Speaker 2: doctor Brown at k I as jfk at aol dot com.
Speaker 2: It's a fun book and it actually dissects the many,
Speaker 2: many fantastic claims.
Speaker 3: Judith very Baker in her own words.
Speaker 12: Thank you for all the great information you like.
Speaker 13: History, real history that you were never taught in schools.
Speaker 13: Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and Nation Building in
Speaker 13: Southeast Asia by author Mike Swanson, with new documentation never
Speaker 13: seen before that'll open your eyes to events that led
Speaker 13: up to this. Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and
Speaker 13: Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen
Speaker 13: sixty one. Get your copy today at Amazon dot com.
Speaker 13: Why the Vietnam War by author Mike Swanson
Speaker 11: Four