Speaker 1: Oh he is, folks, it's show Die.
Speaker 2: People say good money to see this movie.
Speaker 3: When they go out to a theater, they want cold sodas,
Speaker 3: pop popcorn, and no monsters in the protection booth.
Speaker 1: Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring.
Speaker 4: Got it off.
Speaker 2: You've changed everybody's life. Now everyone is watching.
Speaker 5: I believe Arthur Flexed to be some kind of.
Speaker 1: Mart He's a monster.
Speaker 3: When you exactly what he was.
Speaker 1: Doing, showd witnesses entered to the little man, he's not.
Speaker 1: He's persons.
Speaker 2: You're Borenna call you Mark or a joker. I'm not
Speaker 2: speaking to now which one of you is here?
Speaker 1: I'm doing anything for you.
Speaker 2: Do you think it's a little too much.
Speaker 1: Watch?
Speaker 2: You could do anything you want.
Speaker 3: You're joker.
Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to talk any more than
Speaker 1: an hour, and I know you probably don't want to
Speaker 1: talk any more than about five minutes about this movie.
Speaker 2: Frankly, I feel very unfair.
Speaker 1: You fucking hated this movie before you even saw it.
Speaker 2: I wanted to give it a shot.
Speaker 1: I don't know how true that is.
Speaker 2: I didn't like Joker. I have a personal beef with
Speaker 2: Todd Phillips, and I never really watched the Batman cartoons.
Speaker 2: So I don't know the quote unquote real story of
Speaker 2: Harley Quinn and Joker. This Joker is just about as
Speaker 2: obnoxious as Jared Letto, I would think.
Speaker 1: But yeah, maybe I.
Speaker 2: Was laying in wait for this movie and wanting to
Speaker 2: rip in to it, and luckily it's given me a
Speaker 2: big opportunity here.
Speaker 1: This movie is going to make it very easy on
Speaker 1: people to hate. Kind of find this movie fascinating because
Speaker 1: I don't understand what the hell Todd Phillips was doing.
Speaker 1: I do understand, at least I have my own headkin
Speaker 1: and hear of what Todd Phillips was doing. And I
Speaker 1: think that based on the amount of times Todd Phillips's
Speaker 1: name shows up on this and I'm talking directed by,
Speaker 1: written by, those are things that really lead me to
Speaker 1: believe that a certain thing was going on here this
Speaker 1: whole time. One might say that the story of Joker
Speaker 1: is the story of Joker being used as a stand
Speaker 1: in for certain real people of our times. Is that
Speaker 1: not what this is? Is this not like an episode of
Speaker 1: the Culture Cast featuring me the host of the Culture Cast, Christachu,
Speaker 1: Much to the chagrin of two people and Mike white
Speaker 1: from the projection booth. That's a weird intro, but we're
Speaker 1: going with it. It sure was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what the fuck just happened?
Speaker 1: I was just giving you an abruptness that the movie
Speaker 1: does with the title credits. I want to are we
Speaker 1: going to be talking about a movie that might be
Speaker 1: a parable for real people on this episode that's a crossover,
Speaker 1: because I think that's what this is supposed to be.
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to you unpacking that.
Speaker 1: For me.
Speaker 2: This is so within two weeks I have witnessed car
Speaker 2: crashes on screen. I have to say that Megalopolis is
Speaker 2: a much more fascinating car crash and one that I
Speaker 2: will probably be studying, and I wouldn't be surprised if
Speaker 2: there's an episode in my future of that. I will
Speaker 2: not be watching this one again, just like I only
Speaker 2: watched Joker the one time because I just find it
Speaker 2: so distasteful. And I can understand where you're coming from
Speaker 2: as far as it's a fascinating failure, but it's not
Speaker 2: one that I care to dig in too much.
Speaker 1: I actually don't think it's a failure of a movie.
Speaker 1: I think it's rather successful. I just think it's rather
Speaker 1: successful at doing something not particularly palatable, but I think
Speaker 1: that was the point of the first movie. And that's
Speaker 1: the thing I've I went and rewatched the first movie
Speaker 1: earlier this year, Okay, about four months ago and so
Speaker 1: recently that I know. I cataloged it on letterboxed and
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more this
Speaker 1: time now, primarily because of my own struggles with mental health.
Speaker 1: And I know that's a big part of the first
Speaker 1: movie is the character is a mental health struggler big time,
Speaker 1: and that ends up being Look, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I needed a movie to relitigate the first movie, to
Speaker 1: be no pun intended, this movie spends the entire movie
Speaker 1: relitigating the first movie. But you know what, I love
Speaker 1: that about this movie, because what happened in the first
Speaker 1: movie deserves to be re litigated. If what you're going
Speaker 1: to do is point out the fact that this guy
Speaker 1: is a complete and utter waste of time, just like
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer, just like Ted Bundy. All these dudes are
Speaker 1: a waste of time and they're not worth idolizing. And
Speaker 1: the only people that idolize them are the people that
Speaker 1: are just as bad as they are, or just as
Speaker 1: broken as they are. Look, we have several characters in
Speaker 1: this film idolizing Joker, from Harley Quinn played by Lady
Speaker 1: Gaga to another just inmate guy who we get to
Speaker 1: the end of the movie. We get to it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on here, and I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to sway your opinion by the end of this podcast
Speaker 1: might or from it, because I don't think that there's
Speaker 1: any point, not because I don't think I can do that,
Speaker 1: but because I understand how unbelievably unpalatable this movie is.
Speaker 1: Everything about it is pretty unpalatable. But I do think
Speaker 1: that's the point, and I think that if you can
Speaker 1: at least observe it that way, it may bear out
Speaker 1: fruit a little bit more. But I understand in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways, I want to give a Woking Phoenix
Speaker 1: mumbling musical anytime of day, because it's a mumbling musical
Speaker 1: that has Lady Gaga in it, one of the most
Speaker 1: objectively talented female musicians period of all time. Period. Yes,
Speaker 1: on this episode of the Culture Cast and the Projection Booth,
Speaker 1: we're talking about twenty twenty four's Fully ad Joker, Fully
Speaker 1: I Do. It's directed by Todd Phillips, written by Scott
Speaker 1: Silver and Todd Phillips based on characters quote unquote from
Speaker 1: DC as I believe, we're intended to believe, And it
Speaker 1: does continue the story from the previous Joker film that
Speaker 1: came out back in twenty nineteen, a more pastoral time,
Speaker 1: when all we were worried about was this movie making
Speaker 1: people angry, and the film does once against Joaquin Phoenix
Speaker 1: as Joker, Lady Gaga plays Harley Quinn. We have Brendan
Speaker 1: Gleeson in there, Catherine Keener' Zazzi beats, and Steve Coogan
Speaker 1: stopped by for a literal cup of coffee in the movie.
Speaker 1: I have no other way of putting it other than
Speaker 1: glorified cameos, and as I already hinted at, we will
Speaker 1: be spoiling the movie. The plot of this movie is
Speaker 1: to relitigate the first movie and give us a look
Speaker 1: at what happens now that Joker is in jail, as
Speaker 1: he slips further into his mental delusions about his own
Speaker 1: importance in the world and whether or not the person
Speaker 1: and idea that he created has outgrown who he is,
Speaker 1: or if he ever even mattered to begin with. Mike,
Speaker 1: I kick it to you spoilers from here on out.
Speaker 1: I think there's no point in not addressing the spoilers.
Speaker 1: Would you say, skip, oh.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent? But like I said, it's a car crash,
Speaker 2: so a lot of people are curious about that. So
Speaker 2: I'm not going to blame you. If you want to
Speaker 2: see this wreck feel free, that's great because I want
Speaker 2: to find meaning in this and.
Speaker 1: It's under a lot of muck intentionally by Todd Phillips.
Speaker 2: I just want to say I don't think that Joaquin
Speaker 2: Phoenix plays Joker in this movie. I think he plays
Speaker 2: Arthur Fleck. And that's part of the problem of it
Speaker 2: is that he's barely Joker in this movie, and he
Speaker 2: really doesn't go back to that, and when he does
Speaker 2: go back to that, he does a black sense as Joker.
Speaker 1: Oh I took that as a Southern drawl thing instead,
Speaker 1: that was the one that was defending evolution. Oh, Clarence Darrow, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like that, That's what I was hearing. Like, that's what
Speaker 1: I was hearing. But again I didn't hear the step
Speaker 1: up and fetch it. I can see it.
Speaker 3: Mister Puddles, Gary Puddles, tell me, sir, is that your
Speaker 3: God give a name?
Speaker 1: Again. We'll get to that continue though about Joaquin Phoenix
Speaker 1: playing Arthur Fleck and not Joker.
Speaker 2: First, let's start at the beginning. What do you make
Speaker 2: of the cartoon intro to this? Because I thought it
Speaker 2: was an interesting way to start it, and it is.
Speaker 2: Finally they're telling us what year it is because there's
Speaker 2: a nineteen eighty three copyright on this Warner brother cartoon
Speaker 2: Me and My Shadow Starring Joker.
Speaker 1: Which is really funny because that's the name of a song.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And when he's in the backstage, it looks
Speaker 2: like he's backstage at the whatever the Robert de Niro show,
Speaker 2: prey Franklin show yep was Murray Franklin. Yeah, he's at
Speaker 2: the Franklin Theater. As he or his sho shadow are
Speaker 2: walking out of the dressing room, there are all these
Speaker 2: musical posters on the wall. This idea of him and
Speaker 2: his shadow that's going to come through so much of
Speaker 2: this whole thing of him having these two personalities in
Speaker 2: them fighting and which one is winning? Is it the
Speaker 2: Arthur Fleck is a Joker.
Speaker 1: The cartoon at the beginning of the movie is one
Speaker 1: hundred percent the key through which he watched the movie right,
Speaker 1: because the whole point of the thing going on at
Speaker 1: the beginning is, like you said, the Shadow takes over,
Speaker 1: the Shadow throws him. When the arm war in the
Speaker 1: dressing room and the Shadow is pretending to be him,
Speaker 1: and the Shadow goes out and sings the song on
Speaker 1: the Murray Franklin Show, the Shadow is dressed up like
Speaker 1: he is. The Shadow is the dark reflection of Joker,
Speaker 1: which is funny because when he gets out of the taxi,
Speaker 1: he's just walking. He's walking with a little bit of
Speaker 1: the style that we see at the end of the
Speaker 1: last movie, but he's not being violent or when it's
Speaker 1: the other version of him, it's this violent character that's
Speaker 1: shooting people, becoming violent with the people he's walking through
Speaker 1: the hallway. And it's the idea that Arthur Fleck feels
Speaker 1: like Joker is his dark reflection that is out of control,
Speaker 1: that he's trying to control. But to what end is
Speaker 1: what the movie ultimately is asking. The more interesting question
Speaker 1: I think that the movie is asking is what happens
Speaker 1: when the thing that you've created by accident not only
Speaker 1: outlives you and the usefulness that it had to you,
Speaker 1: but also when it becomes something that is so important
Speaker 1: to other people that they start to commingle around it
Speaker 1: and make it their life's purpose and something that they're
Speaker 1: outside the courthouse, willing to blow it up to get
Speaker 1: him out. At what point does that become a thing
Speaker 1: that's a problem for everyone. I think cartoon gets to
Speaker 1: that idea. The cartoon is almost a microcosm of a
Speaker 1: goddamn movie really in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you got the three ops, You've got his
Speaker 2: bare ass, You've got them beating the shit out of them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's definitely, and then him ending with knock knock. It
Speaker 2: is basically what we're going to see in the rest
Speaker 2: of this film.
Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, you could take it the
Speaker 1: literalism of the first movie, right the first movie came out.
Speaker 1: It's not like there were the radical violence in the
Speaker 1: streets because of the movie. The movie came out. It's
Speaker 1: a good performance by Joaquin Phoenix, That's not a question
Speaker 1: in my mind. Even if you don't like the movie,
Speaker 1: you can appreciate his performance and the depths and lengths
Speaker 1: that he goes to to portray the character. Nothing ended
Speaker 1: up coming up the movie. So it is weird that
Speaker 1: Todd Phillips would be like, Oh, I'm going to demystify
Speaker 1: this character, this kind of awful, nihilistic meta character that
Speaker 1: I've created that kind of speaks to the world right now.
Speaker 1: I would say, yes, it's Todd Phillips kind of killing
Speaker 1: the monster. But I also think it's Todd Phillips commenting
Speaker 1: on us as a society, putting on a pedestal these
Speaker 1: the awful people. We have seen people obsessed with Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 1: and we have seen people obsessed with John Wayne Gacy
Speaker 1: and all these people just like she is, just like
Speaker 1: Harley Quinn is in this movie, and we've seen this
Speaker 1: in real life. I just think we've never seen a
Speaker 1: story told like this before. Superhero Villain. I think that
Speaker 1: this movie would be really good. It had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with the Joker. Imagine this movie had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with comic books or superheroes or anything, and it
Speaker 1: was just this weird movie about this guy who takes
Speaker 1: on this persona and does what he does in the
Speaker 1: first movie, and then the second movie is just talking
Speaker 1: about how that persona grew out of control and became
Speaker 1: its own thing to society. Imagine if it was just
Speaker 1: that without any of the pretense of DC. Might you
Speaker 1: like this movie more? And I'm just curious because how
Speaker 1: much of this cuts to it's a superhero thing as well.
Speaker 1: It's a weird way to repurpose this story because it
Speaker 1: doesn't really speak at all to any version of the Joker,
Speaker 1: which is actually perfectly fine by me. This is its
Speaker 1: own thing, period, all the way to the end. But
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, like how much of that factors into
Speaker 1: this for you.
Speaker 2: I think that's the only thing interesting about it, is
Speaker 2: playing with those tropes and making this such a different
Speaker 2: thing than we've seen before. We've seen villain and hero
Speaker 2: origin story so many times, but this one actually was
Speaker 2: a little bit interesting that with the first movie, I
Speaker 2: just couldn't abide by all of the homage to Scorsese.
Speaker 5: And just the king of comedy of it all, you mean,
Speaker 5: and and I just felt like this it just leans
Speaker 5: so heavily on those this one when there's a shot
Speaker 5: that's directly from umbrellas chareboard with all of the multicolored
Speaker 5: umbrellas as they're moving.
Speaker 1: Along, which who would know that's what that's even referencing
Speaker 1: other than that, to fucking deal, Well, I know you
Speaker 1: and I know me, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: The musical nature of it all obviously speaks to that
Speaker 1: as well. But I don't think anyone going to see
Speaker 1: this for the book part of the Oh Wow, you
Speaker 1: get it though. I get it. But then again, because
Speaker 1: I'm your friend and I've heard of that movie because
Speaker 1: of you, But I can't imagine just someone is going
Speaker 1: and seeing it. And yeah, Brothers of shareboor Wow, Todd
Speaker 1: Phillip is such a huge way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's a little bit of Taxi Driver
Speaker 2: when Lady Gaga puts the finger gun to her head,
Speaker 2: but we get a lot of guns to heads here. Yeah,
Speaker 2: with this one, it feels like they should maybe I
Speaker 2: don't know, lean on something because basically this movie, Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's musical acts in them which could easily have been removed.
Speaker 2: It's interesting the way that they integrate the music in here.
Speaker 2: I am absolutely okay with that, even though I have
Speaker 2: to say that as a singer, Joaquin Phoenix is a
Speaker 2: really good actor, can't hold that too. Maybe he can.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just Arthur Fleck singing rather than Woquing Phenix singing,
Speaker 2: if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Well walk the line, and he did a pretty good job.
Speaker 1: As Johnny Cash.
Speaker 2: That's true, it is Arthur then, Okay.
Speaker 1: I think this is intentional. I want you to speak
Speaker 1: to the Todd Phillips of all this because that's the
Speaker 1: thing that I know you can speak to more than
Speaker 1: I think pretty much anybody else that we know right
Speaker 1: as far as what him as a person, and I
Speaker 1: think some of who he is as a director and
Speaker 1: the choices as he's made, and I think his reputation
Speaker 1: and him being his own person, I think would lead
Speaker 1: me to believe that he did this kind of as
Speaker 1: a fuck you movie.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he's a total troll.
Speaker 1: Total that's more because you've had personal dealings with Todd Phillips.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, he just never impressed me as a
Speaker 2: human being, just really came off as a prick. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I feel like he knew how to play the system
Speaker 2: and he made some movies before, but he just had
Speaker 2: this precipitous jump up in the ranks of directorhood to
Speaker 2: go from he made the g. G Allen documentary. I
Speaker 2: think he produced that Chicken Hawk documentary about men who
Speaker 2: love boys, and then he made that fake documentary for HBO.
Speaker 2: But when they found out that it was faked, they
Speaker 2: pulled it. I think that was just called Fratthause and
Speaker 2: then yeah, somewhere after that, he just like went up
Speaker 2: in the ranks and suddenly he is directing star Skiing
Speaker 2: Hutch and all of these things that are opening in
Speaker 2: the summer, and road Trip was a big success. Didn't
Speaker 2: he do like Old School or something too?
Speaker 1: That was the first movie of his that I ever saw.
Speaker 1: I know nothing about him other than what you've told me.
Speaker 1: I enjoy Old School affair amount and I enjoy Starsky
Speaker 1: and Hutch, I think even more. I think my favorite
Speaker 1: thing that he's done is Starsky and Hutch, and I
Speaker 1: think a lot of that also goes to Ben Stiller
Speaker 1: and Owen Wills and being perfectly cast and Snoop dog
Speaker 1: being the best part of that goddamn movie is Huggy Bear.
Speaker 1: He hits all the notes perfectly as Huggy Bear, and
Speaker 1: it's seamless that role was made for Snoop Dogg. If
Speaker 1: you're gonna make a modernized version of that story, Snoop
Speaker 1: Dogg was perfect casting. Again, that script, I believe co
Speaker 1: written by Todd Phillips. Yep, his name's on it again.
Speaker 1: There are other names on some of these things, but
Speaker 1: he works on primarily only things he writes, at least
Speaker 1: as a director. He wrote the first Joker is named
Speaker 1: on this one. But yeah, I think personally, if you
Speaker 1: ask me what Todd Phillips's job was here was I
Speaker 1: got a lot of money to make a movie that
Speaker 1: I just really wanted to make, and it's just all
Speaker 1: the way down an unpleasant movie to watch.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a horrible movie to watch.
Speaker 1: But I don't think that there are enough movies like
Speaker 1: this anymore. I'm talking about as a big budget to
Speaker 1: two hundred million dollars studio fucking picture, not as a
Speaker 1: ten million dollar yoyo's making a movie like Megalopolis and
Speaker 1: this are outliers. Like movies like this don't get made
Speaker 1: two hundred million dollar bombs. That is a fucking shock
Speaker 1: in this day and age. This movie making as little
Speaker 1: money as it made and getting roasted as hard as
Speaker 1: it's being roasted is shocking because this is the equivalent
Speaker 1: of the first movie being amazing in the second movie
Speaker 1: being railroaded. Is one of the worst movies ever made. Outright,
Speaker 1: this movie's being called one of the worst movies ever made.
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's that bad.
Speaker 2: Where is the two hundred million dollars going to?
Speaker 1: Though?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like this is an outer space epic.
Speaker 2: There are some special effects. Was it the animeters for
Speaker 2: that cartoon? Are they raking in all this? Do dough?
Speaker 2: I don't see the money on screen.
Speaker 1: I think they paid Lady Gaga twenty five million dollars.
Speaker 1: Uh Gaga was paid twenty in Jaquin Phoenix's paid twelve.
Speaker 1: So a quarter, almost a quarter of your budget is
Speaker 1: paid on your two main actors. So let's rephrase the
Speaker 1: question where did one hundred and sixty million dollars go?
Speaker 2: Was it Brendan Gleeson? Did he just absorb the rest
Speaker 2: of the budget? Here?
Speaker 1: He's a nasty one in this movie, isn't he? He's great?
Speaker 2: Especially the rape scene. Hey, let's just jump right there.
Speaker 2: The rape scene one of the worst prison rape scenes
Speaker 2: that I've seen, probably since Hudsucker Proxy, but probably even worse, because, yeah,
Speaker 2: you get the guy who's like crying the first night,
Speaker 2: the fish and everything, and he's gonna get raped. And
Speaker 2: here you get that nice long moment after the rape
Speaker 2: where we're just in that close up of Joaquin Phoenix
Speaker 2: and just the devastation on his face. I'm like, oh, okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: this so reminds me of the Come and See or
Speaker 2: like some of these wartime dramas where you're just like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck am I watching right now? What are
Speaker 2: you doing to me?
Speaker 1: I thought there was a little bit of one Floor
Speaker 1: over the Cuckoo's Nest with this movie.
Speaker 2: Oh, very yeah, but I liked that.
Speaker 1: Like about this movie is like it wears that on
Speaker 1: its sleeve a little bit. And I appreciate that because
Speaker 1: I don't think that I see that enough personally like
Speaker 1: these I don't know, I like a dude didn't prison story.
Speaker 2: I've seen it too many times.
Speaker 1: No, it's not for everybody. Hey, I get it that
Speaker 1: I do understand. But it's the musical of it all
Speaker 1: that makes it fucking weird, right, Like, it's the music
Speaker 1: and the musical numbers. You know what this movie reminds
Speaker 1: me of. In a lot of ways, this movie reminds
Speaker 1: me of like an old timey like Singing in the
Speaker 1: Rain musical. There's parts of this movie that are like,
Speaker 1: they don't make movies like this anymore, And I wonder,
Speaker 1: let's wind our question back even further. Is the budget
Speaker 1: just all on the practical shit. It must have been
Speaker 1: all these sets they were building. When they cut away
Speaker 1: to the moments of the delusions of Arthur Fleck. That
Speaker 1: is the best part of the movie. All those fucking
Speaker 1: scenes of them two singing together and being bizarre and weird,
Speaker 1: and him playing Joker, waking Phoenix's Joker when they give
Speaker 1: him six minutes in the movie, should be Joker. He's
Speaker 1: great as Joker. He was great as Joker in the
Speaker 1: first movie. But some of this reminds me of The
Speaker 1: Dark Knight Rises, where it's like, hey, he's like Batman
Speaker 1: for six minutes in the movie. But that's the point.
Speaker 1: Like in this movie, I guess he's never really Joker
Speaker 1: in real life. He's Joker once, like you said with
Speaker 1: the with the voice, but those delusional musical scenes because
Speaker 1: they're so well shot. That's said again, like there's a
Speaker 1: flair for the practicality there, though singing leaves a lot
Speaker 1: to be desired.
Speaker 2: And then Lady Gaga is so amazing as a singer.
Speaker 2: There's one moment when they finally are back on the
Speaker 2: let's call him the Joker steps towards the end of
Speaker 2: the movie, and of course there's an image that I
Speaker 2: think is going to be captured where it's him saying
Speaker 2: please stop singing, as she's still singing, and he's got
Speaker 2: his hands on her mouth trying to shut her up.
Speaker 2: She is just standing there and starts to sing, and
Speaker 2: she just gets higher and higher in her range. I
Speaker 2: don't even see it take a deep breath or anything.
Speaker 2: She just starts to sing and gets louder and higher,
Speaker 2: and the octaves go up, and she just is so
Speaker 2: talented she can't help herself. But even when we meet
Speaker 2: her for the first time, when she's singing with this
Speaker 2: church group or choir group, I should say at the
Speaker 2: mental institution, I can hear her voice over everybody else. Yes,
Speaker 2: that's probably mixing, but also I think it's just that
Speaker 2: she has the best voice in that entire room.
Speaker 1: She is Lady Gaga.
Speaker 2: She is amazing.
Speaker 1: That's and here's the thing I think, ultimately, if we're
Speaker 1: talking just the objective issues with this movie. Objectively, there
Speaker 1: is not enough Lady Gaga in this movie. And I'm
Speaker 1: talking about like when she's playing Harley Quinn in the
Speaker 1: there's plenty of delusional world Harley Quinn, but she's rarely
Speaker 1: given anything to do other than sing and to be fair,
Speaker 1: the Joaquin Phoenix is singing as well, so we're not
Speaker 1: really building out their characters through the singing because these
Speaker 1: aren't original musical pieces, which I think, for me is
Speaker 1: the biggest missed opportunity in this entire is for these
Speaker 1: musical pieces to not be original their jukebox musical numbers
Speaker 1: really come on. That for me is the biggest missed
Speaker 1: opportunity because when they said this was going to be
Speaker 1: a musical, you know what, we really haven't gotten a
Speaker 1: superhero musical movie. And we still really haven't because this
Speaker 1: movie isn't that. This is a superhero jukebox musical, which
Speaker 1: means they are not original songs. They're hovers of other
Speaker 1: people songs like Rock of Ages, like Mama Me. But
Speaker 1: here's the thing, they chose the Great American Songbook. I'm
Speaker 1: not bemoaning. However, the audience that is this movie is
Speaker 1: being made for is not going to really have a
Speaker 1: fucking clue any of these songs, and that is a
Speaker 1: shame to me. And again because I'm not saying it
Speaker 1: should have all been like the most recent bullshit hip
Speaker 1: hop R and B pop nonsense. I'm not saying that,
Speaker 1: but I feel like they really should have just been like, hey,
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga or somebody write some original songs for this thing. Really,
Speaker 1: if you have Lady Gaga and you're paying her twenty
Speaker 1: million dollars.
Speaker 2: Everything that you liked, I didn't like, and vice versa,
Speaker 2: because I actually really liked the recontextualization of the older
Speaker 2: songs and using those especially That's entertainment, Superhero, musical, Doctor
Speaker 2: Horrible signalong blog.
Speaker 1: Come on, But that's my point. When you write all
Speaker 1: the songs, there are songs in there that stick with
Speaker 1: me for a lot longer. And I mean again, don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't like them
Speaker 1: using the songs that they used. It's just for me.
Speaker 1: I feel like the audio for this movie would have
Speaker 1: been better served with a little bit more recent music,
Speaker 1: like maybe music from the eighties even or seven. Like
Speaker 1: I know that some of the music is from the
Speaker 1: seventies obviously.
Speaker 2: Oh and even farther it goes back all the way
Speaker 2: to the fifties and even forties.
Speaker 1: I think that, in my mind that it should have
Speaker 1: either been a musical from the original musical and nothing else.
Speaker 1: We're not doing a jukeboxer don't do that at all.
Speaker 1: I like jukebox musicals fine enough, but I really love
Speaker 1: an original musical a lot more. Because jutebox musicals are
Speaker 1: just covering songs. I don't listen to the Rock of
Speaker 1: Ages version of any of those songs. I'll go listen
Speaker 1: to the original ones. If there was ever Talking Heads
Speaker 1: jutebox musical, I'm probably listening to the songs, but I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that they would be in my rotation, just
Speaker 1: like I'm not sure Jaquin, Phoenix and Lady gog has
Speaker 1: versions of any of their songs are going to be
Speaker 1: in my rotation. There might be one or two. To
Speaker 1: Love Somebody is pretty good. That musical number is the
Speaker 1: Great Woe where he just starts getting mad at her
Speaker 1: upstaging him, which is really funny, and I think, honestly
Speaker 1: like that's the thing that with Lady Gaga feels like
Speaker 1: the missed opportunity. So how much do you know about
Speaker 1: the ending of the movie as it was originally shot?
Speaker 2: Nothing at all. I have not. I knew that the
Speaker 2: ending of this movie was a discoarded idea from the
Speaker 2: first movie.
Speaker 1: And you can see it on Twitter as well, that
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga was supposed to kill Joker on the steps.
Speaker 2: That makes sense, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And take his place, And that makes so much more
Speaker 1: sense because that's literally what the whole movie is building too.
Speaker 1: It's fully a du it's it's insanity of two. It's
Speaker 1: insanity shared by two people, if you want to take
Speaker 1: it literally, but other than just her being near him.
Speaker 1: And then by the end of the movie, he takes
Speaker 1: the makeup off, and in that scene where he's stopped singing,
Speaker 1: she has the makeup on it. It's so she's taken
Speaker 1: on the mantle of him. And then when she says
Speaker 1: goodbye Arthur, I am convinced that's the cut right there
Speaker 1: where it would have been her killing him, because you
Speaker 1: can see footage of it online of her killing him
Speaker 1: or at least her getting arrested on the steps, just her,
Speaker 1: and that was the original ending, and it would have
Speaker 1: worked so much better. It makes so much more narrative
Speaker 1: and thematic sense in terms of the story that they're
Speaker 1: trying to tell, in terms of even the way they're
Speaker 1: using that's entertainment. She's upstaging him. That's like her job.
Speaker 1: Throughout the entire movie, She's making it about herself to
Speaker 1: the point where she wants to be him and then
Speaker 1: she kills him to become him. Then you could do
Speaker 1: a third Joker movie with Lady Gaga in the lead role,
Speaker 1: and that might actually be an interesting movie, a Harley
Speaker 1: Quinn jukebox musical featuring the music of Lady Gaga, who
Speaker 1: also plays Harley Quinn. Actually, because I know some people said, oh,
Speaker 1: the ending of this movie redeemed the movie, I think
Speaker 1: the ending of this movie fucking made this movie a
Speaker 1: little like. People are like, the ending of this movie's
Speaker 1: wild enough, you need to check the movie out, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't think so. I think if the
Speaker 1: ending had been the one of the versions of the
Speaker 1: ending they shot, I think I would agree because having
Speaker 1: Lady Gag got kill one of the more iconic versions
Speaker 1: for many people of the Joker at the end of
Speaker 1: his movie would be a pretty big moment, right, And
Speaker 1: to rob the movie of that is a shame.
Speaker 2: Her character is interesting because she this whole thing of that.
Speaker 2: She's this kind of poor little rich girl fangirl of criminals.
Speaker 2: She had checked herself into the mental institution and had
Speaker 2: followed his case and lied to him about how much
Speaker 2: she liked the TV movie which I keep thinking, Like
Speaker 2: when they're talking about the shitty TV movie, I'm like,
Speaker 2: is that the first movie? Is that what we're referring
Speaker 2: to is the first movie? I don't know that. I
Speaker 2: thought that would have been Yeah, I thought that would
Speaker 2: have been kind of clever. Actually a couple of things
Speaker 2: real quick, just I want to bounce this stuff off
Speaker 2: of you. First off, when Arthur is getting his med
Speaker 2: at the very beginning and there's a one of his
Speaker 2: fellow inmates goes.
Speaker 1: He bit me.
Speaker 2: He didn't bite the guy. I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2: And then they even say like, oh, yeah, he bit
Speaker 2: a guy, and I was like, no, he didn't. I
Speaker 2: watched that multiple multiple times, and he never bites that guy.
Speaker 2: Is that the guy who ends up killing him at
Speaker 2: the end of the movie, Because at first I thought
Speaker 2: it was going to be the little guy. Well he's
Speaker 2: not little, but he's like kind of young and innocent
Speaker 2: and dumb to the guy that he kisses in the
Speaker 2: yard at prison. But then I think that he's the
Speaker 2: one who gets killed. When when jokers getting raped, is
Speaker 2: that right or what outs after the rape scene? I
Speaker 2: think it is you can hear somebody getting murdered outside
Speaker 2: of his cell and I want to say, it's that
Speaker 2: little guy.
Speaker 1: It is so that. Yeah, at the beginning of the movie,
Speaker 1: that scene, that guy who ends up okay at the
Speaker 1: end of the movie. We'll talk about the end of
Speaker 1: the movie in a moment. But the character from the
Speaker 1: end of the movie is trying to grab him right
Speaker 1: then and there the first five minutes the movie to
Speaker 1: do I think to stab him right then and there.
Speaker 1: I don't know. You see him going for him and
Speaker 1: then somebody draws him back. It is the character from
Speaker 1: the end of the movie that's going for him at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the movie, in the first two minutes
Speaker 1: of the movie, that guy is going to grab him
Speaker 1: and do something to him within two seconds of the
Speaker 1: movie start. I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
Speaker 2: No, I'm not sure either.
Speaker 1: The other than just like this has been there this
Speaker 1: whole time, and he's just been completely unaware or convincing
Speaker 1: himself that, like everyone in there is on his side
Speaker 1: and believes in him, and that's not the case. I
Speaker 1: love the idea in this movie of watching this guy
Speaker 1: try to convince himself that the world is on his
Speaker 1: side and it's not on his side. That they're on
Speaker 1: the side of this person that he created. They couldn't
Speaker 1: give a singular shit about him, and that is what
Speaker 1: factors into the end of the movie. With the character
Speaker 1: that you're talking about.
Speaker 2: There's that almost parallel scene of Lady Gaga kissing a
Speaker 2: woman that ended up getting cut out, but I believe
Speaker 2: that's in the trailer.
Speaker 1: I think so, right, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: A woman that recognizes her while she's going to the
Speaker 2: courtroom and it looks like she's gonna attack her, and
Speaker 2: she ends up kissing her instead.
Speaker 1: Before we talk about the ending, and I think the
Speaker 1: third act of the movie. You mentioned the rape scene,
Speaker 1: but the audacity of the film because it's not that
Speaker 1: I didn't read it that way. I did read it
Speaker 1: as a rape scene. If it was a female character
Speaker 1: that was happening too, that's how you would read it, right,
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that's what it was. But good lord,
Speaker 1: movie that's pushing the boundaries of good taste. If there
Speaker 1: is any good taste in this movie at all, it's
Speaker 1: like trying to ramp itself up and be extreme to
Speaker 1: what end. This is awful. The world is awful. We
Speaker 1: get it, and I think that's the moment that breaks
Speaker 1: the Joker. We cut back to that first movie, the
Speaker 1: scene in the first movie where he's washing the makeup
Speaker 1: off of his face, and that's the moment where the
Speaker 1: Joker is gone because he realizes that there is nothing
Speaker 1: he can do. It's all a charade, it's all a facade.
Speaker 1: In reality, he cannot escape and he's fucked.
Speaker 2: You see that guy who was going for him again
Speaker 2: when Arthur's singing for once in my life in the room.
Speaker 2: I mean, that was one of the things too, where
Speaker 2: I kept wondering to myself, are these musical numbers in
Speaker 2: his head? Are they really happening? I'm not exactly sure.
Speaker 2: I think the movie kind of wants it to be
Speaker 2: both ways. The other thing I kept thinking through probably
Speaker 2: the first half of the movie, actually well through the
Speaker 2: first hour, I kept thinking that Lady Gaga didn't even exist.
Speaker 2: I thought she was a figment of his imagination. And
Speaker 2: even when they break out a out of the sanitarium
Speaker 2: and stuff like, he ends up getting caught, she runs away,
Speaker 2: I'm just like, yeah, it feels very very Tyler Durdon
Speaker 2: esque to me, and I thought that that's what we're doing,
Speaker 2: And until other people. Wasn't really until Catherine Keener said, oh,
Speaker 2: you know your little friend, she's out giving interviews, and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, so she's a real person.
Speaker 2: Like just the way that they shot this, I did
Speaker 2: not think that she actually existed. I mean there's the
Speaker 2: sex scene and everything, and I'm just like, Oh, he's
Speaker 2: in a cell just jerking it thinking of Lady Gaga
Speaker 2: and who doesn't really exist?
Speaker 1: Could she have been a figment of his imagination? Know
Speaker 1: that there are people that are, like you said, having
Speaker 1: interviews and all that, but is that in Arthur's head
Speaker 1: as well? That's a problem with a unreliable narrator movie,
Speaker 1: which I'll say what this movie reminded me of as well,
Speaker 1: in terms of we have a deplorable character who did
Speaker 1: at least some terrible things. Thinks he did more terrible things,
Speaker 1: but again, some of the terrible stuff he did, we
Speaker 1: know about some of the terrible stuff he thought he did,
Speaker 1: but he didn't do. Yeah, like he did some of that,
Speaker 1: but he didn't do all of it. What is going on?
Speaker 1: Is he a reliable narrator? How reliable is he? How
Speaker 1: unreliable is he? Where is the line? I feel like
Speaker 1: that's very in this movie again, because the whole film
Speaker 1: is shot from his perspective, especially when we go into
Speaker 1: these interior in his head scenes. We have that in
Speaker 1: plenty of old school musicals, where you literally are in
Speaker 1: the character's mind doing a musical number or they're explaining
Speaker 1: what happened through a musical number. They don't do this anymore,
Speaker 1: which I think is the other reason this movie blopped.
Speaker 1: This movie I think would have benefited from having come
Speaker 1: out a long time ago, because I think this movie
Speaker 1: is better suited for an audience in the seventies. This
Speaker 1: is a very seventies facing movie, just like Joker was,
Speaker 1: like in the way that it was facing King of Comedy, right,
Speaker 1: like it's facing the late eighties or late seventies, early eighties,
Speaker 1: these kinds of movies. That's what it's trying to be,
Speaker 1: but doing a very weird kind of mishmash of things.
Speaker 1: But it's wearing what it's inspired by on its sleeves.
Speaker 2: I guess if if he's continuing to rip off Scorsese,
Speaker 2: this is the New York, New York of it all.
Speaker 1: I have never seen New York.
Speaker 2: There's a very large club of people that have never
Speaker 2: seen that movie.
Speaker 1: Oh it's like a performance musical.
Speaker 2: Yes, though it's not you know, it's not the typical musical.
Speaker 2: Let's put it that way. It's more like, yeah, well
Speaker 2: it's also there. It's diegetic because it's you know, in
Speaker 2: a club type of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh that was the other thing because when she comes
Speaker 2: in and they have sex, she's like, oh, yeah, they
Speaker 2: let me in here, and I'm just like, how did
Speaker 2: you get in here? This doesn't make any sense that
Speaker 2: he's in solitary and they just let her in there.
Speaker 2: So that was another thing. And then when she says
Speaker 2: that she's pregnant, I'm just like, yeah, no, you're not pregnant,
Speaker 2: you know. I just you're not. And you're just trying
Speaker 2: to manipulate him. And that's her whole thing, is manipulating him,
Speaker 2: and it's him disappointing her constantly. And when he says like,
Speaker 2: I'm Arthur Fleck, the joker isn't real, you know, I
Speaker 2: just put on the makeup kind of thing, and like
Speaker 2: you're saying, like he takes off the makeup and that
Speaker 2: post rape scene in his mind, he is betraying her
Speaker 2: in her mind, and I'm just like, yeah, so her
Speaker 2: murdering him at the end really would have made a
Speaker 2: lot more sense.
Speaker 1: It would have been the perfect ending to the movie.
Speaker 1: Straight up.
Speaker 2: I have to tell you, the most harrowing scene for me,
Speaker 2: even more than the rape scene, is that scene I
Speaker 2: was mentioning before, when he is dressed up as the
Speaker 2: Joker and doing the whole courtroom stick when he has
Speaker 2: Lee Gil as Gary puddles on the stand. That's the
Speaker 2: most harrowing scene for me, you know, with Lee just
Speaker 2: giving this incredible performance and he's just like, you know,
Speaker 2: you're the only one who is ever nice to me.
Speaker 2: And speaking of betrayal, Arthur betrayed Gary, you know, because
Speaker 2: he was the only one who was ever nice to him,
Speaker 2: and then he lives in constant fear that Arthur or
Speaker 2: somebody else is going to just shoot the poor guy.
Speaker 2: And I just felt so bad for him. That scene
Speaker 2: just tore my fucking heart out. And I think that's
Speaker 2: another reason why I don't like this movie, is because
Speaker 2: I felt very manipulated at that point too.
Speaker 1: I again, so and this is where I think Todd
Speaker 1: Phillips is going to the talking about real life people
Speaker 1: through the metaphor of film, because in the real world,
Speaker 1: There are people who even your association with them can
Speaker 1: cause you ire in real life or your feelings towards
Speaker 1: them should they be outed publicly. There are people out
Speaker 1: there that will take it upon themselves to go out
Speaker 1: of their way to make your life miserable just because
Speaker 1: they don't agree with some binary choice that you've made.
Speaker 1: And that scene, for me, I think is the best
Speaker 1: scene in the entire movie, outside of the musical stuff.
Speaker 1: If we're talking about the musical scenes are their own thing,
Speaker 1: and I can't address the non musical stuff because I
Speaker 1: think there's two movies here. There's the musical thing, and
Speaker 1: then there's a very fucking horrifying character study of someone
Speaker 1: who is a deeply mentally unwell person who the system
Speaker 1: has failed at every turn to the point of them
Speaker 1: having no outlet for anything other than to go and
Speaker 1: be violent and justify the violence away. And then we
Speaker 1: get to see this scene which shows, like, no, these
Speaker 1: people are deeply fucked up, and the worst part about
Speaker 1: this is not what they've done, but the way it
Speaker 1: affects everybody around them, because we see the legal character
Speaker 1: being I'm terrified of you, I'm terrified to live. I
Speaker 1: have PTSD. Every day, and then we get to see
Speaker 1: some of the parents of the people that Joker murdered
Speaker 1: on the train. They don't deserve to die, they're just assholes,
Speaker 1: but he kills them. And you see the parents of
Speaker 1: these people in the courtroom ready and willing to kill
Speaker 1: Arthur Fleck as well, to push themselves further than they
Speaker 1: probably ever would have thought as human beings. And so
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting, similarly to something like Zodiac, you
Speaker 1: get to see the by proxy of how terrible people
Speaker 1: affect the community and world around them. And in this
Speaker 1: movie you get to see very much localized within several
Speaker 1: characters from the last movie I'm Shocked, we get to
Speaker 1: see Lee Gill again in this movie I'm Shocked. Zazzi
Speaker 1: beats shows back up. But those are scenes that make
Speaker 1: this movie for me worth watching because those scenes are horrifying.
Speaker 1: It's like taking all of the things that we've seen
Speaker 1: in real life and distilling it down into No. The Joker,
Speaker 1: if he was a real person, would not be someone
Speaker 1: anyone would I had Liz. He's a fucking nightmare of
Speaker 1: a human being. Even when he's not the Joker, he's
Speaker 1: a nightmare of a human being, let alone when he's
Speaker 1: the Joker, which is this version of this guy with
Speaker 1: all of the limitters taken off, all the med limitters
Speaker 1: and everything else. And that's the thing. In the first
Speaker 1: movie he says, I stopped taking my meds and I
Speaker 1: feel better, and it's like, oh no, And we see
Speaker 1: that in The Joker is the externalization of him without
Speaker 1: his meds and mental illness. Like this movie is the
Speaker 1: Joker as mental illness made old. It's the Kafka esque.
Speaker 1: It's like anthrop They've anthropomorphized that into a real character,
Speaker 1: which is this face paint that he puts on. The
Speaker 1: Joker is mental illness. It's almost a horror. If they
Speaker 1: ever make that Grant Morrison Arkham Asylum graphic novel into
Speaker 1: a movie, that will be probably the furthest that they
Speaker 1: go in terms of addressing the Joker as a thing
Speaker 1: as a stand in for things. But this does a
Speaker 1: pretty good job in making the Joker character the stand
Speaker 1: in for the overwhelmingly awful effects of meant of untreated
Speaker 1: mental health, either by choice or by negligence on the
Speaker 1: person who it's happening to and the people surrounding them.
Speaker 1: This movie just treads water, unfortunately, and that's even I'm
Speaker 1: saying that as much as I enjoyed this movie, which
Speaker 1: I enjoyed this movie a fair amount the third time
Speaker 1: I windly watched it, it does tread water because I
Speaker 1: don't think anybody really wanted to watch a movie that
Speaker 1: just spends the whole time talking about the last movie.
Speaker 1: That's a weird thing, right.
Speaker 2: It is. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting way to approach
Speaker 2: a sequel, to just tear apart or take apart the
Speaker 2: first movie, and there's you know, you're talking about the
Speaker 2: DC of it all and some of those little things
Speaker 2: that they have in here, like oh, after the big explosion,
Speaker 2: Harvey Dent's face is fucked up. Oh, or you know,
Speaker 2: after he gets murdered by the other patient, you hear
Speaker 2: him slice his face open. So is that Heath Ledgers joker.
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, yeah, I guess. You know, those are
Speaker 2: the little comic bookie things that you know, screen Rant
Speaker 2: or some of those other a holes on YouTube will
Speaker 2: just fall all over themselves to try to tie this
Speaker 2: into the bigger universe and find all the Easter eggs
Speaker 2: and things. I'm like, I could give a shit, you know.
Speaker 2: It's just like it's it's bredon circuses for the masses.
Speaker 1: That and it's funny you mentioned trying to tie it
Speaker 1: into things. I think this movie would have been better
Speaker 1: if you had no idea was a Joker movie until
Speaker 1: he puts the face Painton and then oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's a Joker movie. Imagine what that first movie would
Speaker 1: have been if that had been the kind of the
Speaker 1: final conceit of the movie as oh, this is a
Speaker 1: Joker thing. Oh my god. But no, to your point,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my god, to connect it at the end,
Speaker 1: or try to connect it. But I don't even that's
Speaker 1: the thing, Like I didn't. I initially looked at it as,
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's the connecting it back to the
Speaker 1: Dark Knight. Nah, it's not that at all. I think
Speaker 1: it's more just the idea of every universe that has
Speaker 1: the Joker. There's Batman, and there's Bruce Wayne, and there's
Speaker 1: Thomas Wayne, and there's Harvey Dent. But here's the thing,
Speaker 1: this guy was never the Joker. He was a Joker.
Speaker 1: And that's why this movie's not called the Joker. That's
Speaker 1: why this movie is just called Joker because, like you
Speaker 1: mentioned to me yesterday, this guy is not your joker.
Speaker 1: He's not my joker, he's not anybody's joker. He's just
Speaker 1: a guy, a really mentally unwell human being who uses
Speaker 1: the auspices of a Joker esque character to make himself
Speaker 1: feel less downtrodden and small than he inherently does because
Speaker 1: the system has, by design or by negligence pushed down
Speaker 1: on him his entire life, and he's been failed by
Speaker 1: the system at every turn. That's not the Joker we
Speaker 1: see again, effectively the Joker throughout this entire movie. Right
Speaker 1: He's there in the movie in every scene, watching Arthur Fleck,
Speaker 1: and then he gives a pretty harrowing scene at the
Speaker 1: end of the movie because it's pretty obvious what's about
Speaker 1: to happen, but that the actor who's giving the performance
Speaker 1: at the end of the film and throughout the movie
Speaker 1: as the unnamed inmate cour Connor's story, is just playing
Speaker 1: a joker. I think it's interesting that he's throughout the
Speaker 1: movie watching everything that he is doing because it speaks
Speaker 1: to this idea of this guy's so pathetic. All he's
Speaker 1: doing is worried about his outward persona and the way
Speaker 1: the world views him and the real Joker wouldn't care.
Speaker 1: The real Joker is so insane and this is my
Speaker 1: ultimate read at the end of the movie, right, the
Speaker 1: real Joker is so insane that he looks at this
Speaker 1: guy and goes, you're taking something that could be actually
Speaker 1: used for evil, and you're just pissing it away. Like
Speaker 1: why would I let you piss it away? I'll kill
Speaker 1: you and then I'll be known, and then someone will
Speaker 1: come save me from prison, because how does the king?
Speaker 1: What happens to the king? Right, either the king steps
Speaker 1: down or the king gets slain, and in this movie
Speaker 1: you have him murdering him, which will undoubtedly get out
Speaker 1: to the world because look, Arthur gets saved from prison.
Speaker 1: Even after he rejects the persona of Joker. He rejects
Speaker 1: it in front of the court, says he's not the
Speaker 1: Joker takes responsibility for the murders of everybody, which the
Speaker 1: Joker would never do, at least not the way he
Speaker 1: does wistfully and sadly. And the Joker, given the opportunity
Speaker 1: at the end of the movie, would sit and parrang
Speaker 1: the jury. He wouldn't just sit there and go I'm
Speaker 1: sad and pathetic. And so the character at the end
Speaker 1: of the movie, clearly knows that he sees what happens.
Speaker 1: And I like that because the actual Joker is fucking insane,
Speaker 1: that's the point. And the actual Joker isn't sad that
Speaker 1: he's insane, And that's the problem with this guy. He's
Speaker 1: sad that he's insane. The real Joker doesn't give a shit.
Speaker 1: And I guess I don't know Todd Phillips for it
Speaker 1: was four hundred million dollars worth it to make two
Speaker 1: trolley ass movies. I wonder because it's a troll job, right.
Speaker 1: The way this movie ends is actually trolly.
Speaker 2: Well, and it's even like one of those when he
Speaker 2: comes in and says, Hey, there's somebody here to see you,
Speaker 2: I'm like, is there really? Or was this just his
Speaker 2: plan the whole time to get him away?
Speaker 1: You know? But I like that he murdered him at
Speaker 1: the end of the movie and he gives the monologue
Speaker 1: of I saw this sad, pathetic clown sitting there, and
Speaker 1: I'll get you what you've deserved. And I like that
Speaker 1: line shows up three or four times throughout the movie.
Speaker 1: That's another reoccurring theme, the motif of getting what you deserve,
Speaker 1: because Murray supposedly got what he deserved, and then Joker
Speaker 1: gets what he deserves. Theoretically he gets the death penalty,
Speaker 1: and then he gets what he deserves. He just gets
Speaker 1: murdered ahead of time. And he doesn't care, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: he doesn't care that he's going to die. He says
Speaker 1: that throughout the movie. You know, he claims early on
Speaker 1: that was me and I wanted to die, but I
Speaker 1: don't want to die anymore because I have somebody to
Speaker 1: live for. And then when it turns out that, just
Speaker 1: like everything else, Lady Ga Gay is just as big
Speaker 1: as part of the problem as the rest of the
Speaker 1: system was, I guess I want to die again again.
Speaker 1: It's just most people aren't lining up to see a
Speaker 1: movie like this. I get it. It's downright all the
Speaker 1: way down in unpleasant movie, and it wallows in its unpleasantness.
Speaker 1: But I think, for me least, if you can get
Speaker 1: down with a movie that just wants to sit on
Speaker 1: the muck of its own making and splash around in it,
Speaker 1: I think you could do a lot better than this movie.
Speaker 1: But to your point, I don't think you can do
Speaker 1: as odd as a jutebox musical superhero movie based on.
Speaker 1: Ostensibly the most famous villain of all time. DC's number
Speaker 1: one villain period is the Joker. There's nobody that even
Speaker 1: comes close because Batman is the number one DC hero,
Speaker 1: So who's his number one villain? It's the Joker. The
Speaker 1: Joker is the only character to win an Academy Award twice,
Speaker 1: and I don't think any superhero movie is ever gonna
Speaker 1: win another Academy Award at this point, let alone the
Speaker 1: same character two times portrayed differently by two different people
Speaker 1: with very different takes on the character. So where does
Speaker 1: this version of Joker line up for you? Or is
Speaker 1: this even a conversation to have because he's technically not
Speaker 1: the Joker anyways.
Speaker 2: That's tough. That's a really tough thing. And the toughest
Speaker 2: part about Jared Leto's Joeker it feels like most of
Speaker 2: his performance was on the cutting room floor. So I
Speaker 2: don't know if we'll ever get that different cut of
Speaker 2: David Ayer's Suicide Squad. But I really can't judge that
Speaker 2: performance because I just feel like there's not enough there.
Speaker 2: I know that movie had a real vendetta against helicopters.
Speaker 2: You can never take a helicopter in the Suicide Squad
Speaker 2: World because it will always blow up or get shot
Speaker 2: out of the sky.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm not big on ranking things, but yeah, just as
Speaker 2: far as the unpleasantness of these characters, they're both they're
Speaker 2: pretty low. I mean, be me good Caesar Romero or
Speaker 2: Jack Nicholson or of course the King Keith Ledger. I'm
Speaker 2: curious where they're going to go with the Batman and
Speaker 2: that version of Joker, because it sounds like that's who
Speaker 2: Riddler was talking to you at the very end of
Speaker 2: that movie.
Speaker 1: Did you see the clip from that movie with Barry
Speaker 1: Keowhen as Joker? My lord, holy fuck, it's someone watched
Speaker 1: and by someone we know, our dear friend, Richard Adam's friend,
Speaker 1: or I guess matt Reeves' is college friend Richard Adam,
Speaker 1: our dear friend. Yeah, that scene is what it would
Speaker 1: look like if Matt Reeves directed Silence of the Lambs,
Speaker 1: because it's pretty much the Anthony Hopkins Clarice's scene, but
Speaker 1: with Joker and Batman in their respective spots. As it's great,
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's who he's talking to, right, That's who
Speaker 1: he's conversing with, is that character? I'm with you I'm
Speaker 1: more interested in that version of Joker period, but also
Speaker 1: Barry Keohen's an amazing actor. Joaquin Phoenix is an amazing actor.
Speaker 1: I may not vibe with all the stuff that he does.
Speaker 1: He makes some interesting choices, that's for sure. I said
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that, but I know some people might.
Speaker 1: I just think that Joaquin Phoenix's choices sometimes are not
Speaker 1: ones that a lot of people really like. I think
Speaker 1: that sometimes he just makes interesting choices, and sometimes those
Speaker 1: roles don't work. I'm still here as one of those
Speaker 1: things where's just like, maybe not don't do that, but
Speaker 1: then you get something like this in the first movie
Speaker 1: was so well regarded. He's building that positive cred with
Speaker 1: random people who have never probably even seen a Joaquin
Speaker 1: Phoenix movie before. Frankly, because a lot of the stuff
Speaker 1: that he does is not necessarily mainstream either.
Speaker 2: I think he takes a lot of good chances, and
Speaker 2: I'm very glad that he does what he does. I
Speaker 2: don't necessarily enjoy it all the time, but more power
Speaker 2: to him for doing it.
Speaker 1: I think he's an actor with a capital A in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. I think he's probably in the
Speaker 1: same and I wouldn't say he's in the same tier
Speaker 1: as Daniel da Lewis, but I think he's been that
Speaker 1: conversation about those kinds of method actors who probably are
Speaker 1: a lot to be around, but I think it wills
Speaker 1: out in what they do on screen. I do Joaquin
Speaker 1: Phoenix's Joker, but I get where you're coming from in
Speaker 1: terms of these versions and where his is going to
Speaker 1: end up. And I think again, ultimately your mileage with
Speaker 1: this movie is going to vary, especially this one, because
Speaker 1: if you like that first movie, this movie does feel
Speaker 1: like a fuck you to you if you like the
Speaker 1: first movie. But if you can understand that the first
Speaker 1: movie's job was not to elevate this guy and make
Speaker 1: him a hero. It was more to just show there
Speaker 1: are people like this in the world and the system
Speaker 1: has failed them. This movie continues that conversation if you're
Speaker 1: interested in having, which I understand why plenty of people
Speaker 1: are not and don't care, because this is the sad,
Speaker 1: cold reality of what this is like when these things happen.
Speaker 1: If we watched a James Bond movie and then we
Speaker 1: had to watch James Bond confront all the families of
Speaker 1: the guards he killed, Nobody wants to see that. Nobody
Speaker 1: wants to see Joker confronted by someone who he traumatized
Speaker 1: because he murdered someone in front of them. No, that's
Speaker 1: not a scene in a movie that anybody was asking for,
Speaker 1: but yet here it is, and it's so well done
Speaker 1: and well acted. At the standout scene in this movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a strange movie that seemed almost at odds
Speaker 1: with its audience and what it thinks its audience wants,
Speaker 1: if it even cares. I think Todd Phillips just making
Speaker 1: movies that he wants to make, whatever the fuck that means.
Speaker 1: Final thoughts on Joker, Mike.
Speaker 2: I wish I had liked it more. Like I said,
Speaker 2: I was kind of lying and wait for this one.
Speaker 2: I don't feel that I was bashing this too much.
Speaker 2: It is going to be interesting to read more about
Speaker 2: this as we move forward, and I'm curious what kind
Speaker 2: of takes people are going to have about it, because
Speaker 2: and I don't mean like hot takes, but I mean
Speaker 2: like actual like dissection of this and what are some
Speaker 2: of these meanings. You know, there's a lot of a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff going on in this movie, and I
Speaker 2: didn't enjoy it, but other people may What about you, Chris.
Speaker 1: I can completely understand where you're coming from, and I
Speaker 1: think that your opinion was the one that more people
Speaker 1: than not are feeling, is that this movie is weird
Speaker 1: and doesn't work necessarily and is just all over the place,
Speaker 1: spins its wheels and waste its time and our time
Speaker 1: and everybody's time collectively. I know that my opinion is
Speaker 1: the hot take here or the minority, And I wonder
Speaker 1: if in the long run, if there will be a
Speaker 1: different version or deleted scenes or whatever will come out
Speaker 1: that'll help pad the movie out, make it make more sense,
Speaker 1: or make certain thematic choices make more sense. But like
Speaker 1: you said, there is a lot going on. This movie
Speaker 1: has a lot of things that it's trying to do,
Speaker 1: things that it's trying to say. And I look forward
Speaker 1: to where this movie goes with its audience, because right
Speaker 1: now I don't think it's founded, but I think ultimately
Speaker 1: it will find an audience. It will find people that
Speaker 1: like it more, people will find it that were turned
Speaker 1: off by the idea of it initially but end up
Speaker 1: watching it and enjoying it. And who knows where the
Speaker 1: life of this movie goes. Because this movie quote is
Speaker 1: an unmitigated disaster according to one WB exaction, which boy,
Speaker 1: did you watch Suicide Squad because at least this is
Speaker 1: a movie. At least this has a plug and no
Speaker 1: blue lasers in the sky. God, But yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: DC thing. It sure is. On that note, Mike, where
Speaker 1: can people find you and the things that you work
Speaker 1: on when we're not doing some of these crossover episodes
Speaker 1: on new movies.
Speaker 2: Everything that I do is available at weirdermainmedia dot com,
Speaker 2: including the projection Booth and all of the other fun
Speaker 2: things that we work on.
Speaker 1: How about you, Chris can find everything I work on
Speaker 1: over at a weirdingwoman media dot com, Patreon dot com.
Speaker 1: Sass Culturecast or Projection Booth gets you access to ten
Speaker 1: dollars or more a month ranking on Bond where we
Speaker 1: talk about James Bond with our friend Richard Adam of
Speaker 1: Richard Adams Pair a normal bookshelf. So that's where you
Speaker 1: can go to help financially. Otherwise, rate and review either
Speaker 1: the the projection Booth or the culture cast on iTunes.
Speaker 1: That's where it helps us the most. Nowhere else helps
Speaker 1: as much as iTunes. So Mike, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for inviting me to do this. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I would have seen the movie.
Speaker 2: Otherwise, so I don't think I would have this kind
Speaker 2: of forced me to do it.
Speaker 1: And as always, I guess we'll catch on the next
Speaker 1: episode of either The Culture Cast or The Projection Booth.
Speaker 3: That's life. That's what all the people say. You're riding
Speaker 3: high in April, shut down in May. But I know
Speaker 3: I'm gonna change that tune when I'm back on top,
Speaker 3: back on top in June.
Speaker 4: I said, that's life.
Speaker 1: And as funny as it may.
Speaker 3: Seem, some people get their kicks stopping on a dream.
Speaker 3: But I don't let it, let it get me down,
Speaker 3: because this fine old world, it keeps spinning around. I've
Speaker 3: been a puppet, a paper, a pirate, a poet, upon
Speaker 3: at a king. I've been and down, and over and out,
Speaker 3: and I know one thing. Each time am I find myself.
Speaker 4: Flat on my face, I picked.
Speaker 3: Myself up and get back in the raid. That's life,
Speaker 3: I tell you.
Speaker 1: I can't deny it.
Speaker 3: I thought of quitting baby, but my heart just ain't
Speaker 3: gonna buy it. And if I didn't think it was
Speaker 3: worth one single tive, I'd jump right on a big
Speaker 3: bird and then I'd fly.
Speaker 4: I've been a puffet, a pauper, a pirate, and a
Speaker 4: poet upon and a king. I've been up and down
Speaker 4: and over and out, and I know one thing.
Speaker 3: Each time am I find myself out flame, flat on
Speaker 3: my face.
Speaker 1: I just picked myself up.
Speaker 4: And keep back in the race.
Speaker 1: That's life. That's life. And I care the knife.
Speaker 3: Many times I thought I'd cutting out, but my heart
Speaker 3: won't fire it.
Speaker 1: But if there's.
Speaker 3: Nothing shaken, calmness here July, I'm gonna roll myself up
Speaker 3: in a big ball. My my