WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:02.600 This special episode of the Three Whiskey Happy Hour is 2 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:04.440 coming to you from the Highlands of Sicily. 3 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:10.599 Well whiskey coming, take my pay the money. 4 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:16.399 Why think alone when you can drink it all In 5 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:21.440 with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour, join your bartenders Steve Hayward, 6 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:29.879 John U and the International Woman of Mystery, Lucretia where. 7 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:32.719 They slapped it up David, ain't you easy on the 8 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:34.640 should chaps got it? 9 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:35.200 Give me. 10 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:39.600 So as threatened and the teaser. Lucretia and I are 11 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:41.000 in the Highlands of Sicily. 12 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:44.079 Awaiting the arrival of John Yu, who is late as always, 13 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:47.359 but we have a substitute for John who actually we've 14 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:49.039 been wanting to have one for a long time and 15 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:50.359 we just haven't gotten her act together. 16 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:52.359 And it's r J Pastrido, the. 17 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:55.320 Dean of Graduate Education at Hillsdale College. 18 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:58.240 R J. Welcome, Thank you, very good to be here. 19 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:01.200 Good it's been long overdue and hopefully first of many, 20 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:02.679 because you know, we have a rotation we want to 21 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:05.599 do now because we you know John sometimes we kick 22 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:08.079 him out after a while and pull on up, Michael 23 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:16.319 if you want to listen in we are podcasting and uh. 24 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:20.519 And yes, right yeah, something like that. 25 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:26.200 Right, So Archie, before we get into the main topic, 26 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:30.680 you're also a descendant of people from Sicily. 27 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:31.879 That's right, which I did not know. 28 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:34.879 So where and when and who and how and you know, 29 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:36.319 give us a little thumbnail bio. 30 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:40.560 Yeah, my grandparents are are all from southeastern Sicily, or 31 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:43.239 at least you know, from when they were very young. 32 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:47.280 And uh so we are not too far from where 33 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:51.760 all of my my people hail from. They were from 34 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:55.000 the small towns around Siakuza, Syracuse, right and now my 35 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:57.760 the relatives that I still see are actually in the 36 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:01.159 city now in Syracuse. So this is say, if this 37 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:02.719 is the first time I get to be on the 38 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:05.879 three Whiskey Happy Hour, I'm very pleased that this is 39 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:07.719 the location we chose for it. 40 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:09.840 Right, and listeners should know that while we don't have 41 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:12.000 our usual single multier in front of us while we're 42 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.360 taping the night, we are going out for dinner afterwards 43 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:16.400 here in Italy and where we will catch up we 44 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:19.080 will find them in every way imaginable. One more and 45 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.719 more detail. I'm just curious about so as your parents 46 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:23.360 came over grandparents. 47 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:24.680 To the state, the grandparents when they when they when 48 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:26.960 they were very young. Okay, you know, so really the 49 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:29.360 great grandparents were the ones that that that made the 50 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:32.639 move right. And then my name got changed slightly in 51 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:36.439 Els Island. So it's pees if you go here to 52 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.120 to Floridia, where the piece tritos are from, it's p 53 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:39.919 I s. 54 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:42.080 Oh, okay, oh interesting. 55 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.360 One reason I was curious is so the town of 56 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.080 Anna that we're in I learned when I was reading 57 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:51.719 the war history from World War Two, this was actually 58 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:53.520 the German military headquarters. 59 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:55.439 I did not know that. And it was overrun, you know. 60 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.919 By Patton and Bradley in you know, July of nineteen 61 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:01.479 forty three, and and so you know, I've sort of 62 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:03.520 read about it previously, but now that was in the area. 63 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:03.960 You know. 64 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:08.400 So Montgomery landed sort of north of Syracuse, and whereas 65 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:12.479 Patton's army landed on the south coast. I forget the long, long, 66 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:14.560 long beach, you know, fifteen or twenty miles of beach. 67 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:16.639 I forget the names of the towns now and let 68 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:18.639 north up the middle. And Montgomery was supposed to go 69 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.520 up the east through Catania to cut off everybody in Messina 70 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:22.879 and failed to do so. 71 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:24.479 And that's part of the drama of the movie and 72 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:25.120 all the rest of that. 73 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:28.039 So and it was fun to actually see the geography 74 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:30.360 and see But then I had never paid attention to 75 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:33.280 the fact that Anna was a primary target to decapitate 76 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:36.360 the German command. So here we are, and of course 77 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.120 an old city goes back to I guess Roman times 78 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:43.000 and so forth. In any case, all you most want 79 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:46.280 to talk about you, first of all, is your very 80 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:47.639 provocative paper. 81 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:48.520 Before you go there. 82 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.080 So I just want to say that of all the 83 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:54.919 famous people that I've had the fortune of meeting in 84 00:03:55.080 --> 00:04:01.159 my relations with John you and you, the one I'm 85 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.840 as actually most excited about was meeting R. J, which 86 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:07.319 I did a year or so ago for the first time. 87 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:09.599 As I recall, because. 88 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:13.719 Even though I went to Claremont and all of those 89 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:19.079 other things, I never really quite understood progressivism, and still 90 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:22.560 until I started reading Margie right and then I, as 91 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:26.480 I mentioned earlier to him, I've used his class, his 92 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:29.199 excuse me, his text in my class for years to 93 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.040 teach progressivism. 94 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:31.120 To my students. 95 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:32.839 Which one in particular, I. 96 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:34.720 Mean, the American progressivism. 97 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:39.160 It's a it's a it's got his editorial comments on 98 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.600 the all of the different progressive thinkers, which is as 99 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.639 it's a three hundred level of American political thought class. 100 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:51.480 But I added that to my class after I read 101 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:51.920 your book. 102 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.800 Well, that's great to hear when that that that collection 103 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:58.240 came out of the early work that I did on 104 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:00.680 Wilson and the other progressives. And I when I wrote 105 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.399 that monograph on Wilson, I had all of this material, 106 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:06.680 and then when I wanted to teach it in class, 107 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:10.519 I had to compile, you know, pounds and pounds of photocopies, 108 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:13.639 and that's when I proposed making a reader out of it. 109 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:16.319 And so I use it for exactly say purpose. You 110 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:18.600 know that you do so, But that's very kind. 111 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.279 Of you to say, Well, that's why I asked which book, 112 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:26.480 because I think, what was it, Woodrow Wilson and the 113 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:28.639 Founding of a Modern what's the subtitle? 114 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:31.720 So the monitor the original monograph I wrote on the 115 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:34.480 topic of progressive it is called Woodrow Wilson and the 116 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:36.120 Roots of Modern Liberalists. 117 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:36.839 That's right, thank you. 118 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:39.639 And then a couple of read I had a reader 119 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:42.759 of works of Wilson specifically, and then a reader more 120 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:44.360 generally of progressive era works. 121 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.319 And I don't want to remind you that that we're 122 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.240 all getting older, but that book now is twenty years. 123 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:50.920 Old, twenty one to be exact. 124 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:52.759 And well, I mean that's the book that I think 125 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:56.240 first made you justly famous, right, I mean, that's the 126 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:57.399 book that what's. 127 00:05:57.160 --> 00:05:59.519 His name on fox back? 128 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:02.600 I forgot about this, yes, But more seriously, I mean 129 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:05.040 there's been a lot of our friends had written a 130 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:08.240 lot of good insight, a good analysis of Wilson, but 131 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:10.839 you really put it all together in one place and 132 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.560 extended the arguments and I think really crystallized things better 133 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:15.680 than anybody had done before. 134 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:17.639 Well, that's very kind of you to say. I always 135 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.279 I like to explain it. You know, our good friend 136 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:26.360 Charles Kessler who is our teacher, and he pointed out 137 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.639 to us the importance of the progressives, right, and with 138 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.279 a lot of different things that Charles's students have written 139 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:35.040 over the years, we had sort of written the books 140 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:38.279 that kind of flow from things that the nuggets that Charles, 141 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:40.079 you know, taught us and pointed us to when we 142 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.240 when we were in graduate school. So that's that's how 143 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:47.759 that came out, and it continues to have relevance. Maybe 144 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.519 we'll get a chance to talk about it later. Here. 145 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:53.560 But you know the speech by Justice Thomas, pointing to Wilson. 146 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:55.959 You know, I've had people calling me even though the 147 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:57.839 book's twenty twenty some odd years old. 148 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:00.600 Oh that's right. He quoted the book in a speech, 149 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:01.279 didn't he. 150 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:04.000 I don't know that he quoted me in the speech. 151 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.120 I know that the hit on Thomas from Ruth Marcus 152 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:08.079 quoted me. 153 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:10.120 Well, congratulations for that. 154 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:11.720 I don't know if that's any distinction. 155 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:14.959 Before you forget, you should mention that in because I 156 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:17.439 think you linked to it that r J's piece is 157 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:20.439 also in the symposium that we all did all right 158 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:21.800 for cibas. 159 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:24.639 Thomas, it's hard to keep up. I mean there's almost 160 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:30.120 a book book. Well is it? I'll get your your 161 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:31.319 most recent piece in a moment. 162 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:33.800 But is it is it fair of me to say that, 163 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:39.800 you know, our prior teacher before that, Jaffa wasn't as 164 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:41.600 onto this as well? 165 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:43.720 Put it this way, the most famous book crisis of 166 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:44.360 the House Divide It. 167 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.040 He mentions Woodrow Wilson once in the briefest mention in 168 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.600 passing and seems to kind of approve of him maybe 169 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:52.480 a little bit orctually doesn't disapprove of him. 170 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:53.639 It doesn't, doesn't. 171 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:54.759 I think maybe Jaffa was not. 172 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.279 Alert to the way that Wilson had misused Lincoln completely 173 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:02.079 stripped out Lincoln's core teaching from is he has attempted 174 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:03.199 appropriation of Lincoln. 175 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:06.120 You put your finger right on it. Because the thing 176 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:10.720 that Jaffa really would not have liked about Wilson on 177 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:15.040 Lincoln would be that Wilson. Wilson hated the theoretical parts 178 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:19.519 of the Declaration of Independence, right, and he oddly thought 179 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:23.480 that Lincoln also didn't like those parts. And that's because 180 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:26.879 Wilson's very clear really didn't read anything Lincoln ever actually 181 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.759 wrote or said, right, And so he made that mistake. 182 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:33.000 But you're right about about doctor Jaffa. You know, he 183 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:36.039 had a soft spot for the New Deal, right, and 184 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.360 Wilson was an antecedent of the New Deal. I actually 185 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.000 was very, I must confess, very reluctant to show him 186 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:45.360 a lot of what I had written on Wilson because 187 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.559 I didn't know if he would like it very much, right, 188 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:50.639 And so I sort of stayed under his radar. Right. 189 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.159 Well, I think I think Marini and d and other people, 190 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.159 but I mean I studied with all three of those 191 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:01.360 people and he was not on till I read R. 192 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.600 Jay's work, But I began to understand the progressive names. 193 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:07.240 I've learned none of that even from from earlier. 194 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:08.480 Now. 195 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.840 Of course we discuss it all of the time, but 196 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:15.159 I think you really were sort of a pioneer and 197 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:18.159 all of that. Now, I didn't take any classes from 198 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:19.399 Charles Kessler. 199 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.759 He was barely had barely gotten. 200 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:23.000 There when I was. 201 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:24.159 He wasn't even unpacked. 202 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.440 Yeah, and so so you know, I might have missed 203 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:28.360 it from that point of view. 204 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.480 So for me, you are the pioneer. I'm just going 205 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:32.080 to leave it that. 206 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.559 And I do believe if if if Jaffa understood the 207 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.759 Progressives the way that you explained them, he would absolutely 208 00:09:38.759 --> 00:09:40.360 agree with everything you said. 209 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.840 I Well, I like to think so, because Jaffa was 210 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:44.759 so agreeable with with everybody. 211 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:47.840 We no I know, but but but but there's the 212 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:50.399 whole point of getting ahead of us. But the whole 213 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.639 point of the progressives is their their fundamental denial of 214 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:59.200 a fixed human nature, which was which was Jaffa's central 215 00:09:59.279 --> 00:09:59.759 point all. 216 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:03.360 Yes, more seriously, I think I think you're you're exactly 217 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:09.600 right about that. Uh, And it's appropriate to kind of 218 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:12.519 be talking about these themes this year, in particular because 219 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:16.960 everybody wants to celebrate the declaration, but I think many 220 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:20.919 do not want to celebrate the actual principles of the time. 221 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:22.960 I mentioned it last week in if you heard it 222 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:23.480 about the. 223 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.320 Hit your microphone? Uh, I've seen misbehaves every week. 224 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:32.480 I don't mean too, I'm just anyway. I mentioned it 225 00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:32.960 last week. 226 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:40.159 I'll mentioned again Katie tour Uh took Johnson Mike Johnson 227 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:44.720 to task for the ridiculous notion that our rights come 228 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:48.720 from God? And are we setting is Mike Johnson setting 229 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.200 himself against the Declaration of Independence as if she'd never 230 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:55.679 read it? So, so, you're right, It's the absolutely most 231 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:57.960 important thing I think we could be talking about right now, 232 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:02.679 because so many things follow from that basic understanding. Either 233 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:04.919 there is a fixed human nature that we can know 234 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:10.159 with reasonable certainty and devise a political system consistent with that, 235 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:14.200 or you know, history is what decides what we should 236 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:15.720 be and governments. 237 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:16.320 Should tell us what to do. 238 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:21.480 Well, as I started my latest piece that Steve mentioned 239 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:25.480 briefly that I suppose we'll get into with a line 240 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:28.639 from Senator Tim Kaine, who made who made lots of 241 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.399 news not too long ago by in a Senate hearing, 242 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.879 saying he really objected to the idea of natural rights 243 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:38.639 because that meant that your rights came from God and 244 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:41.559 not from government, and by his lights, they should come 245 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:42.080 from the state. 246 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:43.639 And that's what the Iranians were. 247 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.360 Yeah, you didn't, you didn't. You didn't include that last pot. 248 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:49.120 Yeah, I know. He was a little confused on that point, 249 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.879 and poor Ted Cruz tried to straighten him out, but 250 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:54.960 that was a lost mission. Well, let's linger a. 251 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:57.600 Bit on the sort of students who are rethinking new 252 00:11:57.679 --> 00:11:59.320 vistas in the American political tradition. 253 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:00.679 I think John. 254 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:04.039 Weddergreen, who died at age forty three, passed away before 255 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:06.600 you arrived in graduate school, so you probably never got 256 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:08.600 to medium, that's right. But you know he had hung 257 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:11.360 out in San Jose State with wedder Green and Marini, 258 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.240 and I think Earler John Weddergreen. 259 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:15.960 Yeah, you said he hung out with wedder Green. 260 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:19.639 Oh, sorry, wet Green hung out with Marini and earlier 261 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:22.480 up at Yeah, I just up at San Jose State 262 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:24.320 in the late sixties, early seventies, and. 263 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.960 Yeah he was he was a professor at San Jose. 264 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.000 Right, but he I think the story was He was 265 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:32.200 Jaffa's first graduate student way back at Ohio State in 266 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:36.559 the late fifties early sixties, and so his great unfinished 267 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.600 work that still circulates in Sammy's dad was, oddly enough. 268 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:41.879 Really brilliant stuff. 269 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:44.600 We're still talking about trying to update and publish at 270 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.039 Tom West and I have talked about this every few years, 271 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.240 but it was very jaffa esque in this sense. It 272 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.639 was a very pro New Deal and very pro Franklin Roosevelt. 273 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:55.279 And we've argued about it some and you read some 274 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:59.559 parts of it, and anyway, he didn't he skipped Royal 275 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:01.879 The progress was straight from the New Deal and gave 276 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.799 an argument kind of like Conrad Black's argument. And you know, 277 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.240 I love Conrad, but he can be kind of adult 278 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:08.799 sometimes about American politics. 279 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.759 He recently said a declaration was a bunch of debtors 280 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:13.559 trying to escape their debts. It was really stupid. 281 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:16.120 It was very disappointing for a guy otherwise like a 282 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:18.440 lot anyway, So there's that. 283 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:21.720 I think if John had had lived and I had 284 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.879 his untimely death, he would have come around to RJ's opinion. 285 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:25.159 Too, I think. 286 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.720 So I remember, for some reason the thing that I 287 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:32.440 remember most about John water Green it is it is relevant, 288 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:36.960 is him talking about the regulatory state and explaining that 289 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:41.559 one of the outcomes of the of the regulatory. 290 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:45.039 State was the saddle toilet seat. 291 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:50.440 Yes, And I was a dumb kid, and I just 292 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.519 looked up and I said, what does that even mean? 293 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.399 What's a saddle? And he said, I'm not going to 294 00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.360 explain it to you, young lady. You'll just have to 295 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.440 figure it out for yourself. But so my point is. 296 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:04.159 Is he understood the dangers of. 297 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:10.279 A regulation of bureaucratic exploitation of power. 298 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:11.759 He understood all of those things. 299 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:15.559 So I can't believe that ultimately, if he had finished 300 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:17.159 the book, he would have come down on this side 301 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:17.799 of the New Deal. 302 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:19.120 Well this is a go ahead. 303 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:21.559 Well no, So I do think today there's a tendency 304 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:24.120 we actually see it a little bit more of some 305 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.759 conservatives to have a kind of generous view of the 306 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.200 New Deal and of kind of the turn to a 307 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:36.279 more let's just say, you know, robust common enterprise. But 308 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.720 that's partly because I think they tend to see the 309 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:42.480 nineteenth century and the founding and a little bit too 310 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.759 simplistic terms. They see very libertarian terms right, and so 311 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:49.159 they think, well, if I don't like hyper individualism, if 312 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.799 I don't like libertarianism, you know, it's sort of like 313 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:55.200 the Founding in the nineteenth century, we're like a libertarian dreamland. 314 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:59.919 And so well, gosh, now I'm a conservative who's more communitarian, 315 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.279 and I gosh, maybe the progressors had something right, maybe 316 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:05.480 the New Dealers had something right. And so they see 317 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.559 this kind of black and white. And of course that's 318 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:10.120 not the way to see either the Founding or the 319 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:10.879 nineteenth century. 320 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.759 That's the problem with that, right, Well, this is actually 321 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:14.759 a good segue to your paper. 322 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:15.159 You know. 323 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.679 The working title of John Wettergreen's book was total Regulation. 324 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:19.799 I remember the. 325 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:20.440 First time I saw it. 326 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:22.399 I was still a graduate student, still didn't know enough 327 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.240 about anything, and what I thought it went was just 328 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:30.200 bigger and bigger bureaucracy and you know, counterproductive economic regulation. 329 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.279 And it's not that at all. 330 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:33.879 It really was the sort of first cut. 331 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.639 And a lot of what we Claire monsters have subsequently 332 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:37.159 done about. 333 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.519 No, this is not an economic issue. It's a constitutional issue. 334 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:42.279 It's the form of rule by experts. 335 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:44.759 And by the way, Lucreatia one of his other examples 336 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:50.120 in the book is the National Highway Transportation Safety Board 337 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:52.120 or one of those things. They wanted to invent a 338 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:55.960 safer motorcycle, and so they had some government lab come 339 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:00.159 up with this motorcycle that essentially it had training wheels 340 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.600 and work fine and more stable, except that under thirty 341 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.600 miles an hour it lost its stability, would fall over 342 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:07.919 on you and break your leg, And John said, proving 343 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:08.960 that the only safe. 344 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:09.759 Motorcycle is a car. 345 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.759 So why are they doing this? 346 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.840 Right? But what makes the government think that they're the 347 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:16.919 ones who could need to figure out this problem? 348 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:17.159 Right? 349 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.360 Anyway, But that brings us to what is now. 350 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.600 I think much more fully fleshed out. The phrase administrative 351 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.919 state was once the obscure, clunky term in the backwaters 352 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.080 of political science, even though it goes back to the forties, 353 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.200 and now it's just about on everyone's lips, including even 354 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:33.639 the people who defend it. 355 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:35.120 Right, they'll use that term. 356 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:40.080 So victory of nomenclature for us, And of course your 357 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.519 book described for us the philosophy of how we got here. 358 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:46.080 So first of all, so three part three. 359 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.039 Questions I want to work through, and Lucretia, you may 360 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:50.720 have some The first is is just give it a 361 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.120 thumbnail description of how you describe the administrative state to people. 362 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:57.600 And then I'll ask about where we are now, what's 363 00:16:57.639 --> 00:16:59.559 happening at the current moment, it seems promising, And then 364 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:00.519 I have a third question. 365 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.360 But yeah, I mean, I think as as to the first, 366 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.039 it's basically it's a question of what we mean by 367 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:13.039 Republican government, and it's it's you know, there's this confusion 368 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:16.680 about labels today because of course we're told that Donald 369 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:20.119 Trump and the Republican Party are the great enemies of democracy. 370 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:21.279 Our democracy trademark, our. 371 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:25.119 Democracy trademark, and and and so they they think that 372 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.880 it is an assault on democracy to take power away 373 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.680 from unelected bureaucrats and to give it to elected officials 374 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:35.839 like the president. That is framed as an assault on democracy. 375 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:39.839 So when independent agencies who are accountable to nobody, who 376 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:42.759 never have their administrators, don't have to run for election, 377 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:48.559 when when they are brought to heal by an elected president, 378 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.880 this is an assault on our democracy, we're told. 379 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:52.519 Uh. 380 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:55.640 And so I am hoping that at least all the 381 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.880 current attention that you mentioned may help shine a little 382 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:02.599 light on how observed that is. And so I tried 383 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.960 to reset that for audiences when I talk about what's 384 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.359 going on in the Trump administration and the administrative state, 385 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.039 to say, well, first of all, before we get into 386 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:14.480 the weeds, let's understand what's at stake here. You either 387 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:19.759 govern yourselves laws you make, or laws that your elected 388 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:25.200 representatives make, or other people that you cannot hold accountable 389 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.400 govern you. And which do you want? And then we 390 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:27.920 go from there. 391 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:28.839 Right, Oh, that's good. 392 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:29.200 You know. 393 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.119 One of the examples I use with people, it's now 394 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.200 fifteen years old, but I think it's a good one. 395 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:35.680 I may use it here with our Italian friends, is 396 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:40.480 back around twenty ten, I'll say Boeing Aircraft wanted to 397 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:43.359 locate one of its manufacturing facilities in South Carolina, a 398 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.319 non union state, right to work state, and the National 399 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:49.160 Labor Relations Board jumped in and tried to stop them, 400 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:51.880 now bowing I think ultimately prevailed in court. But still 401 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:54.039