WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.520 Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey 2 00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:07.639 continues with chapter sixteen of Quintus Silmarillion of Miglin. In 3 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:10.880 chapter sixteen, we're introduced to the story of Aol the Dark, 4 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.800 elf A Redel, the White Lady of the Noldor, and 5 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:17.280 their son Miglan, whose name means sharp glance. Though a 6 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.839 tale unto itself, it leads to events that will have 7 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:23.800 dire consequences for all of billeriond. Over the next several months, 8 00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:27.199 will continue revisiting the entire thirty episode Silm Mirillion series 9 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:29.359 that Greta and I recorded back in twenty twenty two. 10 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:33.880 While you're listening, check out Selmguide dot com. That's Silmguide 11 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:37.479 dot com for guides to individual chapters. You can find 12 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:40.439 that link in the show notes. To support our work here, 13 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:45.240 please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, 14 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:49.640 fellow travelers. Welcome to The Tolkien Road Episode two ninety five. Greta, 15 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:53.640 what's happening to ninety five? Um? 16 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:56.960 Yeah, the US, right on? Yeah, what's happening with you? 17 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:01.640 The yush cool the episode we will be discussing chapter 18 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:06.519 sixteen of the film million of Meglin Maglin. 19 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:09.040 Maglin, mag What is the right way to say it? 20 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:13.120 You know, I've never felt comfortable anyway I try to 21 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:17.159 say it. I think it's I think it's Maglin, but uh, 22 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:19.159 you know, if you use the film million. So that's 23 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:21.560 what I'm sticking with. That's the only version that makes sense. 24 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:23.799 But I feel like it's subtle, like the right way 25 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:29.959 to say it. So yeah, anyway, before we get started, 26 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:32.239 we'd like to give a double up air five to 27 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:40.640 our patrons. Get them hands up there. Here we go, three, two, one, osh, boom. 28 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:41.200 That good. 29 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:42.799 Nice, Yeah, that's good. 30 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:48.040 Special Thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin 31 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.599 of T with Tolkien, Jacob Blockham, John h and our 32 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:56.040 newest patron and newest executive producer, Scotchy Bobo. 33 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:57.200 Awesome. 34 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.799 Thank you all so much. You guys really appreciate your support. 35 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.239 Appreciate support of all of our patrons. You guys put 36 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:04.680 the wind in. 37 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:06.959 Our sales, so the wind beneath our wings. 38 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:10.199 You had to go with wind beneath our wing win 39 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:11.080 in our sales. 40 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:13.759 You know, But I mean eagles is a reference to eagles? 41 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:15.879 Okay? Good, as long as no reference to you know. 42 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:18.960 Like, that's why I didn't. I can't believe you even thought. 43 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:24.319 That, John, Yeah, gosh. Well, anyway, moving on, become a 44 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:27.080 patron by visiting patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road. Doing 45 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:29.199 so gets you cool perks like twenty percent off of 46 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:32.639 everything at trumspress dot com. Plus your financial support helps 47 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:35.120 the tokaln Road to keep on evering on. Learn more 48 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.319 at patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road. Hey, if you're 49 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.199 on YouTube, hit that like button, don't forget to subscribe 50 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:42.560 and let us know what's on your mind in the 51 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:44.840 comments below. Hey, by the way, if you are on 52 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.120 YouTube and you really love what we're doing over here, 53 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:49.960 we love it if you become a patron. But you 54 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:52.360 can also just leave us a tip on whatever video 55 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:54.560 you're watching. Right so, there's a little button right there 56 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:56.800 that says thanks with like a little heart on it, 57 00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:58.840 I think, right there, and you can give us a 58 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:00.319 tip right there if you just want to give us, 59 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:01.719 like you're just kind of a one off kind of 60 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:03.879 tip person, you know you're not quite ready to make that, 61 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.639 you know, monthly ongoing commitment that you know the patron 62 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:10.879 doom entails. Then you can just leave us a, thanks 63 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:15.400 right there, So yeah, we really appreciate it, all right. 64 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.639 So our quote of the week is from the Fulmarion 65 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:24.280 chapter sixteen, and it goes like this, It seemed to 66 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:27.680 Idrill a thing strange and crooked in Meglin as indeed 67 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.599 the elder ever since have deemed it an evil fruit 68 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:32.879 of the kin slaying, whereby the shadow of the curse 69 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:37.439 of Mondos fell upon the last hope of an oldor yes, 70 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:42.840 words of words, prophetic words of doom. 71 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:49.400 Yeah, yeah, I was, I was thinking about that, and 72 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:51.599 I think we'll probably talk about it in the episode. 73 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.240 But yeah, it seems like this curse just kind of 74 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:58.199 keeps manifesting in different ways. 75 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:03.680 Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you know, would you call 76 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:07.159 this this chapter a tragedy? Would you call this chapter 77 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:12.120 of tragedy? Yeah? I think so. Yeah, yeah, pretty tragic events. 78 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:15.680 In chapter sixteen we learn of a tragic of a 79 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:18.759 we learn sorry, let's try it again. In chapter sixteen 80 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:21.920 we learn of the tragic tale of Adothel, the White 81 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:24.319 Lady of the no oldor Al, the dark elf of 82 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:28.160 non El Moth Maglin, their son, and Idril, the daughter 83 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:32.279 of tour Goan. So as with each episode, we won't 84 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:34.439 be covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing 85 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:36.759 our best to hit the high points and unpack interesting 86 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:39.680 and important details. If we miss something, you guys want 87 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:44.720 to discuss more, let us know, all right. Timeline, so 88 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:51.720 per our volume ten, Volume ten, Volume eleven of the 89 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.720 History of Middle Earth, War of the Jewels, the timeline 90 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:57.519 for this is year of the Sun three sixteen two 91 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:00.839 Year of the Sun four hundred for this story. So 92 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:05.160 it actually Tolien kind of jumped around in terms of 93 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:09.560 what year he put Arathel's departure from Gondolin in what 94 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:12.600 year he placed that. It originally was placed much much further, 95 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:16.839 you know, along in the timeline, but he moved it 96 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:19.560 back and that was where he kept it. And so 97 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:23.079 Rathel's leaving of Gondolin is in the year three sixteen 98 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.079 and their return with Meglin is in the year four 99 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:29.600 hundred years of Year of the Sun. So that gives 100 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.639 you an idea of framework for the timeline we're talking 101 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:38.680 about here, all right. So Arthel restless in Gondolin. The 102 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:42.879 White Lady of the Noldor. She is the daughter of Fingolfen, 103 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.879 who of course is the high King of the Noldor, 104 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:51.079 and she lives in Gondolin with her brother Torgon, right, 105 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:56.000 who is the King of Gondolin. But after a while, 106 00:05:56.199 --> 00:06:00.839 she's not so fond of it anymore. Right, And I 107 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:03.439 feel like this is this is you know, an old 108 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.199 or thing. Right. They don't they don't like being cooped 109 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:10.680 up so much, it would seem I think Galadrail is 110 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.360 the same way. Fan Or was certainly the same way. 111 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:17.439 And I think maybe her not being cooped up maybe 112 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.639 explained something about her her love for the Sons of 113 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:22.439 fan Or that we learned about later on, right, that 114 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:25.120 she feels kind of a she feels drawn to them, 115 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:30.879 right to the Sons of fan Or. So she basically says, 116 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:32.759 you know, tells Torgon that she would like to leave, 117 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:37.639 and he's like, uh, you know, why do you want 118 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:41.199 to leave? Right? I don't want anybody to leave, and 119 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:44.519 because that's dangerous. This is kind of our little hidden kingdom. 120 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:46.160 We're all protected here, no one knows the way to 121 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:51.319 get here. And she's basically like, well, you may be 122 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:54.639 the king, but i'm your sister, so I'm kind of 123 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:56.839 gonna do what I want, right, So you can either 124 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:01.279 help me or you can I'll just I'll just leave 125 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:03.360 my own volition. So he's like, okay, well I'll send 126 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:05.639 you then, please. I would like it if you just 127 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:10.439 went to visit visit Fingn and Hitthlam, right, and so 128 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:13.000 let's you know, let's let's look at him. Let's look 129 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:19.560 at a map here, just to refresh ourselves on the op. Yeah, 130 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:22.120 there we go, all right, So we're right here in Gondolin, 131 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:24.920 right lake, get the lay of the land, and Hitthlam 132 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:28.000 of course is right here, and Fingn is the is 133 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:32.240 the king of this realm. And so in order to leave, 134 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:34.759 they have to go west right here. And you know, 135 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.600 it's not doesn't seem like too long a trip to 136 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:40.480 go from Gondolin to Hitthlam there. And that's the plan, right, 137 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.480 She's going to be escorted to Hititlam and to dwell 138 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.240 there with Fingn their brother. 139 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:49.519 Yeah, yes, it seems fair. That seems like a good compromise. 140 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:54.680 H It's it would maybe seem so, but yeah, Arathel 141 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:57.120 has no intention of sticking to that plan. And that's 142 00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:59.360 the that's the problem here, right. 143 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:02.040 She's a tricksy one. 144 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:05.160 Yes, yes, you know, and I mean I can understand 145 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:06.639 why she wants to get away, and you know, I 146 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:10.519 can understand that She's like, look, I know you want 147 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:13.439 to protect me and everything, but like you know, I'm 148 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:15.920 I'm an old or right, I can handle this. And 149 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:17.800 you know, she proves to be pretty tough. I would say, 150 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:20.240 you know, she she We're gonna learn she makes her 151 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:26.079 way through a lot of perilous realms basically by herself. Right. 152 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:32.480 So was do you think Turgon's concern Was it more 153 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:37.679 for her safety or was it more that he was 154 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.120 afraid that Gondolin would become like found out. 155 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:45.399 I'm sure it's both, right, I mean, the probably the 156 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:50.399 higher priority is that Gondolin is not found out. But anyway, 157 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.240 you know, and you kind of think about it, right, 158 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:56.519 like you know, before you know, we accuse old Torgon 159 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.000 of being like you know, you know, being overly controlled 160 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.799 and everything like that. Again, remember he was inspired, you know, 161 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:05.919 to create this city by dream from Olmo. Right, it 162 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.120 is directly inspired. And if you look at the map, 163 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:12.960 they're really not very far away from, uh from more 164 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:16.240 goth in his in his realm. Right. So you know, 165 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.360 I know this is a time of relative peace, but 166 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:20.480 it wouldn't be too surprising if there was like a 167 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:23.320 little like special Ops band of Orcs that came down here, 168 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:25.120 like you know, just kind of hung out here hoping 169 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:29.399 to find hearing rumors of this realm, this hidden realm, 170 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:31.840 and hoping to find the entrance to it. Right, you 171 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:34.080 know what if they captured her? Right, So you know, 172 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:37.720 this is not you know, way down south and there's 173 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:39.799 really no fear, you know, nothing to fear down here. 174 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.240 This is a you know, this is this is a 175 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:47.120 strategic concern of Torgon's, right, this is his his concern 176 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:52.720 as the king of the whole realm. So she has 177 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.000 no intention of really going to Hitlum, but she goes there, 178 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:57.919 she's escorted, and she's and then they get out and 179 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.399 she's basically like, okay, now we're going to turn south 180 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:04.279 and we're gonna go and journey to him lad, right, 181 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:07.120 which is the realm of the sons of fan Or Right, 182 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:10.080 I want to go see my they're my friends. I 183 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.639 would like to go see them. It would seem that 184 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:18.960 they want to have they want passage through uh through Dorioth, right, 185 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:20.759 because that's you know a little bit safer. It's the 186 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.960 realm of Thingle and Melion. But Dorioth doesn't want to 187 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:27.120 let them pass right, they're not. They're not friendly with 188 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:31.240 an old or right, so, uh so they're basically told like, look, 189 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.320 you can either go you can if you want to 190 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.279 go see the sons of Fan, or you either have 191 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:37.399 to go to the north. You have to journey all 192 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:40.360 the way to the south. That looks like a very 193 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:41.840 long journey for them to go all the way to 194 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:45.519 the south. So, uh so Rothel is like, well, we're 195 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:48.679 going to go the northern route. Of course, this is 196 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:52.879 bordering on the lands of Eric Gorgoroth and that is 197 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.919 not a friendly place. Uh and Non Non don Gortheb 198 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:00.440 isn't either, So so this is a pair of thing. 199 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:02.639 And when they enter into the land of Non Dune 200 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:07.799 Gortheb Arethel basically like the men Torgon's men who are 201 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:12.720 keeping watch over her and escorting her basically lose track 202 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:14.559 of her and she has to make the rest of 203 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:17.519 the journey herself. And these men, after looking for for 204 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.759 some time, these guards, after're looking for sometime, they return 205 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:23.879 to Gondolin, and you know she's feared lost at that point. 206 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:27.080 Yeah, And that was of no really fault of anybody's 207 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.720 I mean, it's just right, I mean, it was not 208 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.639 that she tried to lose them or they just left 209 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:36.279 her be they. I mean, it was just a perilous 210 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:38.200 road and they became separated. 211 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.039 Right, that's right, that's right. Well, and again, like you know, 212 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:44.919 she wasn't really open to them saying we were told 213 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:46.519 not to go here, right, She's like, I'm going to 214 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:47.919 go where I want to go, and if you guys 215 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:49.639 want to follow along, you can, right. 216 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:51.840 She's got an adventurer's heart. 217 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.840 Yeah. Well, and you know, very apparently very strong willed 218 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:55.080 as well. 219 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:58.559 Absolutely, yep. As those women of Gondolin are known to. 220 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:00.559 Be, yes, are they? Are they known to me? 221 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:04.320 Yeah? I think so? Okay, yes, at least this one is. 222 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:07.759 All one of them that we know of, all right, 223 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:14.000 So so yes, passing through, Uh, she does manage to 224 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:17.679 pass through this perilous region of non Dun Gorthub and 225 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:21.440 arrives in hym Laud, meets the people, meets the people 226 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:26.919 of Kelligorm and Quaffin there, but Kelligorm and Kuifin are 227 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:29.000 not at home, so she she abides there for a 228 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:32.639 short time and she's welcome there, but at one point 229 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.000 she gets restless again and she goes riding by herself 230 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:39.519 and she journeys a little too far south and gets 231 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:44.159 immeshed in non Elmoth here, this forested region here. So 232 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:50.240 let's read a little bit about non Ellamoth. Yeah, so, Greta, 233 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:51.600 please read this passage right. 234 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.200 In that wood and ages past, Melion walked in the 235 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:57.720 twilight of Middle Earth, when the trees were young and 236 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:01.120 enchantment lay upon it still. But now the trees of 237 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.480 non Elmoth were the tallest and darkest in all Balirirond. 238 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.639 And there the sun never came. And there al Dwelt, 239 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:12.039 who was named the dark Elf of Old. He was 240 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:15.320 of the kin of Thingle, but he was restless and 241 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:17.679 ill at ease and Dorioth. And when the girdle of 242 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:21.200 Melion was set about the forest of region where he dwelt, 243 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:24.720 he fled thence to non Elmoth. There he lived in 244 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.000 deep shadow, loving the night and the twilight under the stars. 245 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.000 He shunned an oldor, holding them to blame for the 246 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.519 return of Morgoth to trouble the quiet of Blairirond. Before 247 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.000 the Dwarfs, he had more liking than any other of 248 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:40.240 the Elk of Old. From him, the Dwarves aren't much 249 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.120 of what passed in the lands of the Eldar. 250 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.360 Yeah, so this ale is he's kind of a hermit, right. 251 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.600 He prefers to be on his own. He does not 252 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:53.559 like an oldor who unfortunately he lives very close to, 253 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.240 and he really doesn't seem to like other elves as 254 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:56.879 well that much. 255 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.600 So what is his He says, he's kind of thingle 256 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:03.000 So does that mean that he's Tilarry. 257 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:06.039 Well he sent Yeah, he's send well And I mean 258 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:08.720 that's what the Sindar are Tilary that didn't make the 259 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:14.360 final journey too, I'm on right, Yeah, so, uh he 260 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:18.919 is he is Sindarn and but he feels really I mean, 261 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:23.799 he feels most at home amongst dwarves, right, he feels 262 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:26.360 most at home amongst dwarves. And we learned a little 263 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.440 bit more that he's he learns much of metal work 264 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:33.600 and comes to great skill through his friendship with them. 265 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:39.559 And he even creates this particular type of metal, uh 266 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:41.960 that is it says it's so malleable that he could 267 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:43.919 make it thin and supple, and yet it remained resistant 268 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.320 to all blades and darts. And he named it Galvoorne, 269 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.000 for it was black and shining like jet, and he 270 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:49.799 was clad in it wherever he went abroad. 271 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.120 So this is not mythrol, No, this is not myth 272 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.399 through that sounds similar. 273 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:58.480 Well, you know it's it's it's powerful metal. Right. So, 274 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.639 and one day he happens to be, you know, in 275 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:12.159 non ell Moth, and he sees Adithel Arthaniel. He sees 276 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:19.120 Rothel there, and he really thinks she's thinks she's. 277 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:20.240 Something something special. 278 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:23.279 Yeah, very fair. She seemed to him, and he desired her, 279 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.360 and he set his enchantments about her so that she 280 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:28.320 could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer 281 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:30.879 to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There 282 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.080 were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants 283 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:36.080 as he had, silent and secret as their master. And 284 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:38.840 when Arethel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, 285 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.240 he revealed himself, and he welcomed her and led her 286 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.159 into his house, and there she remained for aole, took 287 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.000 her to wife, and it was long ere any of 288 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:49.120 her kN heard of her again. Now all of that 289 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:54.279 sounds very you know, like like very suss right, Yeah, 290 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.279 I will say that. You know, let's include in this 291 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.840 account it is not said that that Adithel was wholly unwilling, 292 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.320 nor that her life and non ell Moth was hateful 293 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:04.320 to her for many years. 294 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:08.639 Not unwilling does not initially mean willing. 295 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.799 Though well not and I agree, right, not wholly unwilling? 296 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:14.159 So is what it says there? 297 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:18.200 It is not said, Okay, yeah, it is not said. 298 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:20.159 That Rthel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life and 299 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.440 non ell Moth was hateful to her for many years. 300 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:27.879 But you know, so it's kind of like it it's 301 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.000 kind of like damning with faint praise, you know, I 302 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:35.240 think it's the saying right. You know, it wasn't entirely hateful. 303 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:41.279 It didn't just utterly suck. It only sucked a little bit. Yeah. So, 304 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.720 but definitely, you know, this this just right off the bat. 305 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.399 You know, we see that Ale is a very uh 306 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:52.039 he's a very problematic figure, you know, to put it 307 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:57.679 in in a somewhat wishy washy academic way, right, you know, 308 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:00.440 this is just not right what he does to what 309 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:01.559 he does to autothel here. 310 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:04.200 But isn't it what Meleon did the thingle. 311 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.960 Well, that's an interesting point, isn't it right? Yeah, But 312 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:11.559 at the same time, I don't like, you know, I 313 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:13.359 mean do you do you think do you think it's 314 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:14.359 completely equivalent? 315 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.319 Well, I don't want to get on down this rabbit 316 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.480 trail too much because I know I've shared my opinions 317 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.480 like at length on how I feel about enchantments leading area. 318 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:27.519 Do we want to revisit that argument? 319 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:34.599 I think truly the only difference here is that that 320 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:39.599 Melion is not nearly as sus as Ale, and that 321 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.319 was the woman taking the lead, which I'm totally fine with. 322 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.200 I just this seems a little more sus to me 323 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:47.480 because it's it's basically glorified kidnapping. 324 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.559 Mm hmmm, because Ale is totally sketchy and he lives 325 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:55.240 in dark woods and you know, I don't know. 326 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:57.319 I feel like Thingle could have stood up for himself 327 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:02.400 if he wanted to, but uh Arthell probably didn't feel 328 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:03.160 like she could have. 329 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:05.440 I feel like she was taken advantage of. 330 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.160 But at the same time, it talks about I mean 331 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.240 she was pretty I mean she was pretty tough. She 332 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:11.759 was pretty tough slaty, right, I mean she journeyed through 333 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.279 this perilous region, which was not a small you know, 334 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.359 this wasn't like a day's trip. This is a large 335 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.000 region of Bellerion right, this non dunge Gorth, and it 336 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.599 basically says she came through this region all by herself, 337 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:25.799 right on the edge of edd Gorgorot. You know, in 338 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.720 later years, this is like where Baron is going to, like, 339 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:30.440 you know, spend some time and it's going to be 340 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:35.039 like hell on Earth for him, you know. Yeah, so you. 341 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:36.200 Know, no doubt. 342 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.200 I'm not saying she wasn't tough, but I mean it 343 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:44.039 was probably it was probably a calculated decision. I mean, 344 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:48.240 what was what was her what was the alternative? No? Yeah, 345 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.519 I mean did she want to go back through that road? 346 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:51.319 Probably not. 347 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:53.559 I think where I land on all this? All right, 348 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.640 so you brought I didn't even remember the whole Thingle 349 00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.440 and mellyon thing, right. 350 00:18:58.480 --> 00:18:59.960 I feel very strongly about those people. 351 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.039 Yeah, well you do, and I I to me, it's 352 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.960 just like, okay, it's interesting to think about like what 353 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.920 a Tolkien intent because I feel like, you know, he's 354 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:16.720 telling story. He's telling stories in a style that you 355 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.720 know that go back to a certain you know, a 356 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.480 certain way of thinking that's not as that's not as 357 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:25.119 prevalent anymore. And it's all about this idea of like enchantment, 358 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:29.039 and you know, you know, I mean you like, couldn't 359 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.519 you say that anybody who Okay, just bear with me 360 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:34.359 for a minute for the sake of argument, all right, 361 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:41.119 couldn't you say that anybody who sees somebody and says 362 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:44.519 like I really want, like, I think that person is 363 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:48.359 the most beautiful person I've ever seen, and I'm just smitten, 364 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.079 like love at first sight, and I have to be 365 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:54.119 with that person, right, I have to have that person, right, 366 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:59.119 Like a lots of love stories that we admire begin 367 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:04.240 that way, right, And and people do things that you 368 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:07.000 might refer to as enchanting, like putting on the mood, 369 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:08.880 like you know, putting on the move, all this stuff, right, 370 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:10.799 whatever you want to like, that's how we put it today. 371 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:11.359 But it's like. 372 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:16.079 This is a different level though, I mean, there's clearly 373 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:22.440 some like unforeseen power at work, right. 374 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.000 Yeah, I guess the question is like does she is 375 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:31.519 she like without without agency? I mean I'm trying, I'm 376 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:33.839 trying to read back, does she have is she basically 377 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.759 kidnapped or like, you know, what happened, what happens here, 378 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:41.039 Let's read it again. And when Artha, we were with wondering, 379 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.039 came at last to his doors, he revealed himself, and 380 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:44.880 he welcomed her, and he let and led her into 381 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:46.920 his house, and there she remained for Al took her 382 00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:48.400 to wife, and it was long ere any of her 383 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:49.960 ken heard of her again. 384 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:54.640 This doesn't say I mean, I mean, if she had fought, 385 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.400 is that kind of what you're thinking of? Like did 386 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:58.279 she resist in. 387 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:00.880 Yeah, it's like, well, what were the enchantments? You know, 388 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:03.920 like what you know, what were the enchantments that he used? 389 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:06.640 And did they like did they wear off to the 390 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:08.720 at some point and she was able to like make 391 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:12.640 a you know, a smarter decision or better decision. Like 392 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.839 I don't know, to me, maybe we're reading this text 393 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.920 in the wrong way because like it's not intended to 394 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.920 be that kind of thing, right, Yeah, I feel like 395 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.119 I feel like it's a is it is it unfair 396 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.559 to like assign to like put that reading on like 397 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.440 put that kind of reading on this in this case? 398 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.039 But I think as we discuss and I get it, 399 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:36.319 and I think that's a fair question. As we get 400 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.519 further into this into the the chapter and actually like 401 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:45.559