Speaker 1: Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey
Speaker 1: continues with chapter sixteen of Quintus Silmarillion of Miglin. In
Speaker 1: chapter sixteen, we're introduced to the story of Aol the Dark,
Speaker 1: elf A Redel, the White Lady of the Noldor, and
Speaker 1: their son Miglan, whose name means sharp glance. Though a
Speaker 1: tale unto itself, it leads to events that will have
Speaker 1: dire consequences for all of billeriond. Over the next several months,
Speaker 1: will continue revisiting the entire thirty episode Silm Mirillion series
Speaker 1: that Greta and I recorded back in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: While you're listening, check out Selmguide dot com. That's Silmguide
Speaker 1: dot com for guides to individual chapters. You can find
Speaker 1: that link in the show notes. To support our work here,
Speaker 1: please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there,
Speaker 1: fellow travelers. Welcome to The Tolkien Road Episode two ninety five. Greta,
Speaker 1: what's happening to ninety five? Um?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the US, right on? Yeah, what's happening with you?
Speaker 1: The yush cool the episode we will be discussing chapter
Speaker 1: sixteen of the film million of Meglin Maglin.
Speaker 2: Maglin, mag What is the right way to say it?
Speaker 1: You know, I've never felt comfortable anyway I try to
Speaker 1: say it. I think it's I think it's Maglin, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know, if you use the film million. So that's
Speaker 1: what I'm sticking with. That's the only version that makes sense.
Speaker 1: But I feel like it's subtle, like the right way
Speaker 1: to say it. So yeah, anyway, before we get started,
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Speaker 1: Special Thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin
Speaker 1: of T with Tolkien, Jacob Blockham, John h and our
Speaker 1: newest patron and newest executive producer, Scotchy Bobo.
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Speaker 2: You know, But I mean eagles is a reference to eagles?
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Speaker 1: So our quote of the week is from the Fulmarion
Speaker 1: chapter sixteen, and it goes like this, It seemed to
Speaker 1: Idrill a thing strange and crooked in Meglin as indeed
Speaker 1: the elder ever since have deemed it an evil fruit
Speaker 1: of the kin slaying, whereby the shadow of the curse
Speaker 1: of Mondos fell upon the last hope of an oldor yes,
Speaker 1: words of words, prophetic words of doom.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was, I was thinking about that, and
Speaker 3: I think we'll probably talk about it in the episode.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it seems like this curse just kind of
Speaker 3: keeps manifesting in different ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you know, would you call
Speaker 1: this this chapter a tragedy? Would you call this chapter
Speaker 1: of tragedy? Yeah? I think so. Yeah, yeah, pretty tragic events.
Speaker 1: In chapter sixteen we learn of a tragic of a
Speaker 1: we learn sorry, let's try it again. In chapter sixteen
Speaker 1: we learn of the tragic tale of Adothel, the White
Speaker 1: Lady of the no oldor Al, the dark elf of
Speaker 1: non El Moth Maglin, their son, and Idril, the daughter
Speaker 1: of tour Goan. So as with each episode, we won't
Speaker 1: be covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing
Speaker 1: our best to hit the high points and unpack interesting
Speaker 1: and important details. If we miss something, you guys want
Speaker 1: to discuss more, let us know, all right. Timeline, so
Speaker 1: per our volume ten, Volume ten, Volume eleven of the
Speaker 1: History of Middle Earth, War of the Jewels, the timeline
Speaker 1: for this is year of the Sun three sixteen two
Speaker 1: Year of the Sun four hundred for this story. So
Speaker 1: it actually Tolien kind of jumped around in terms of
Speaker 1: what year he put Arathel's departure from Gondolin in what
Speaker 1: year he placed that. It originally was placed much much further,
Speaker 1: you know, along in the timeline, but he moved it
Speaker 1: back and that was where he kept it. And so
Speaker 1: Rathel's leaving of Gondolin is in the year three sixteen
Speaker 1: and their return with Meglin is in the year four
Speaker 1: hundred years of Year of the Sun. So that gives
Speaker 1: you an idea of framework for the timeline we're talking
Speaker 1: about here, all right. So Arthel restless in Gondolin. The
Speaker 1: White Lady of the Noldor. She is the daughter of Fingolfen,
Speaker 1: who of course is the high King of the Noldor,
Speaker 1: and she lives in Gondolin with her brother Torgon, right,
Speaker 1: who is the King of Gondolin. But after a while,
Speaker 1: she's not so fond of it anymore. Right, And I
Speaker 1: feel like this is this is you know, an old
Speaker 1: or thing. Right. They don't they don't like being cooped
Speaker 1: up so much, it would seem I think Galadrail is
Speaker 1: the same way. Fan Or was certainly the same way.
Speaker 1: And I think maybe her not being cooped up maybe
Speaker 1: explained something about her her love for the Sons of
Speaker 1: fan Or that we learned about later on, right, that
Speaker 1: she feels kind of a she feels drawn to them,
Speaker 1: right to the Sons of fan Or. So she basically says,
Speaker 1: you know, tells Torgon that she would like to leave,
Speaker 1: and he's like, uh, you know, why do you want
Speaker 1: to leave? Right? I don't want anybody to leave, and
Speaker 1: because that's dangerous. This is kind of our little hidden kingdom.
Speaker 1: We're all protected here, no one knows the way to
Speaker 1: get here. And she's basically like, well, you may be
Speaker 1: the king, but i'm your sister, so I'm kind of
Speaker 1: gonna do what I want, right, So you can either
Speaker 1: help me or you can I'll just I'll just leave
Speaker 1: my own volition. So he's like, okay, well I'll send
Speaker 1: you then, please. I would like it if you just
Speaker 1: went to visit visit Fingn and Hitthlam, right, and so
Speaker 1: let's you know, let's let's look at him. Let's look
Speaker 1: at a map here, just to refresh ourselves on the op. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there we go, all right, So we're right here in Gondolin,
Speaker 1: right lake, get the lay of the land, and Hitthlam
Speaker 1: of course is right here, and Fingn is the is
Speaker 1: the king of this realm. And so in order to leave,
Speaker 1: they have to go west right here. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's not doesn't seem like too long a trip to
Speaker 1: go from Gondolin to Hitthlam there. And that's the plan, right,
Speaker 1: She's going to be escorted to Hititlam and to dwell
Speaker 1: there with Fingn their brother.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, it seems fair. That seems like a good compromise.
Speaker 1: H It's it would maybe seem so, but yeah, Arathel
Speaker 1: has no intention of sticking to that plan. And that's
Speaker 1: the that's the problem here, right.
Speaker 2: She's a tricksy one.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you know, and I mean I can understand
Speaker 1: why she wants to get away, and you know, I
Speaker 1: can understand that She's like, look, I know you want
Speaker 1: to protect me and everything, but like you know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm an old or right, I can handle this. And
Speaker 1: you know, she proves to be pretty tough. I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, she she We're gonna learn she makes her
Speaker 1: way through a lot of perilous realms basically by herself. Right.
Speaker 3: So was do you think Turgon's concern Was it more
Speaker 3: for her safety or was it more that he was
Speaker 3: afraid that Gondolin would become like found out.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's both, right, I mean, the probably the
Speaker 1: higher priority is that Gondolin is not found out. But anyway,
Speaker 1: you know, and you kind of think about it, right,
Speaker 1: like you know, before you know, we accuse old Torgon
Speaker 1: of being like you know, you know, being overly controlled
Speaker 1: and everything like that. Again, remember he was inspired, you know,
Speaker 1: to create this city by dream from Olmo. Right, it
Speaker 1: is directly inspired. And if you look at the map,
Speaker 1: they're really not very far away from, uh from more
Speaker 1: goth in his in his realm. Right. So you know,
Speaker 1: I know this is a time of relative peace, but
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be too surprising if there was like a
Speaker 1: little like special Ops band of Orcs that came down here,
Speaker 1: like you know, just kind of hung out here hoping
Speaker 1: to find hearing rumors of this realm, this hidden realm,
Speaker 1: and hoping to find the entrance to it. Right, you
Speaker 1: know what if they captured her? Right, So you know,
Speaker 1: this is not you know, way down south and there's
Speaker 1: really no fear, you know, nothing to fear down here.
Speaker 1: This is a you know, this is this is a
Speaker 1: strategic concern of Torgon's, right, this is his his concern
Speaker 1: as the king of the whole realm. So she has
Speaker 1: no intention of really going to Hitlum, but she goes there,
Speaker 1: she's escorted, and she's and then they get out and
Speaker 1: she's basically like, okay, now we're going to turn south
Speaker 1: and we're gonna go and journey to him lad, right,
Speaker 1: which is the realm of the sons of fan Or Right,
Speaker 1: I want to go see my they're my friends. I
Speaker 1: would like to go see them. It would seem that
Speaker 1: they want to have they want passage through uh through Dorioth, right,
Speaker 1: because that's you know a little bit safer. It's the
Speaker 1: realm of Thingle and Melion. But Dorioth doesn't want to
Speaker 1: let them pass right, they're not. They're not friendly with
Speaker 1: an old or right, so, uh so they're basically told like, look,
Speaker 1: you can either go you can if you want to
Speaker 1: go see the sons of Fan, or you either have
Speaker 1: to go to the north. You have to journey all
Speaker 1: the way to the south. That looks like a very
Speaker 1: long journey for them to go all the way to
Speaker 1: the south. So, uh so Rothel is like, well, we're
Speaker 1: going to go the northern route. Of course, this is
Speaker 1: bordering on the lands of Eric Gorgoroth and that is
Speaker 1: not a friendly place. Uh and Non Non don Gortheb
Speaker 1: isn't either, So so this is a pair of thing.
Speaker 1: And when they enter into the land of Non Dune
Speaker 1: Gortheb Arethel basically like the men Torgon's men who are
Speaker 1: keeping watch over her and escorting her basically lose track
Speaker 1: of her and she has to make the rest of
Speaker 1: the journey herself. And these men, after looking for for
Speaker 1: some time, these guards, after're looking for sometime, they return
Speaker 1: to Gondolin, and you know she's feared lost at that point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that was of no really fault of anybody's
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just right, I mean, it was not
Speaker 3: that she tried to lose them or they just left
Speaker 3: her be they. I mean, it was just a perilous
Speaker 3: road and they became separated.
Speaker 1: Right, that's right, that's right. Well, and again, like you know,
Speaker 1: she wasn't really open to them saying we were told
Speaker 1: not to go here, right, She's like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: go where I want to go, and if you guys
Speaker 1: want to follow along, you can, right.
Speaker 2: She's got an adventurer's heart.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and you know, very apparently very strong willed
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yep. As those women of Gondolin are known to.
Speaker 1: Be, yes, are they? Are they known to me?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so? Okay, yes, at least this one is.
Speaker 1: All one of them that we know of, all right,
Speaker 1: So so yes, passing through, Uh, she does manage to
Speaker 1: pass through this perilous region of non Dun Gorthub and
Speaker 1: arrives in hym Laud, meets the people, meets the people
Speaker 1: of Kelligorm and Quaffin there, but Kelligorm and Kuifin are
Speaker 1: not at home, so she she abides there for a
Speaker 1: short time and she's welcome there, but at one point
Speaker 1: she gets restless again and she goes riding by herself
Speaker 1: and she journeys a little too far south and gets
Speaker 1: immeshed in non Elmoth here, this forested region here. So
Speaker 1: let's read a little bit about non Ellamoth. Yeah, so, Greta,
Speaker 1: please read this passage right.
Speaker 3: In that wood and ages past, Melion walked in the
Speaker 3: twilight of Middle Earth, when the trees were young and
Speaker 3: enchantment lay upon it still. But now the trees of
Speaker 3: non Elmoth were the tallest and darkest in all Balirirond.
Speaker 3: And there the sun never came. And there al Dwelt,
Speaker 3: who was named the dark Elf of Old. He was
Speaker 3: of the kin of Thingle, but he was restless and
Speaker 3: ill at ease and Dorioth. And when the girdle of
Speaker 3: Melion was set about the forest of region where he dwelt,
Speaker 3: he fled thence to non Elmoth. There he lived in
Speaker 3: deep shadow, loving the night and the twilight under the stars.
Speaker 3: He shunned an oldor, holding them to blame for the
Speaker 3: return of Morgoth to trouble the quiet of Blairirond. Before
Speaker 3: the Dwarfs, he had more liking than any other of
Speaker 3: the Elk of Old. From him, the Dwarves aren't much
Speaker 3: of what passed in the lands of the Eldar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this ale is he's kind of a hermit, right.
Speaker 1: He prefers to be on his own. He does not
Speaker 1: like an oldor who unfortunately he lives very close to,
Speaker 1: and he really doesn't seem to like other elves as
Speaker 1: well that much.
Speaker 3: So what is his He says, he's kind of thingle
Speaker 3: So does that mean that he's Tilarry.
Speaker 1: Well he sent Yeah, he's send well And I mean
Speaker 1: that's what the Sindar are Tilary that didn't make the
Speaker 1: final journey too, I'm on right, Yeah, so, uh he
Speaker 1: is he is Sindarn and but he feels really I mean,
Speaker 1: he feels most at home amongst dwarves, right, he feels
Speaker 1: most at home amongst dwarves. And we learned a little
Speaker 1: bit more that he's he learns much of metal work
Speaker 1: and comes to great skill through his friendship with them.
Speaker 1: And he even creates this particular type of metal, uh
Speaker 1: that is it says it's so malleable that he could
Speaker 1: make it thin and supple, and yet it remained resistant
Speaker 1: to all blades and darts. And he named it Galvoorne,
Speaker 1: for it was black and shining like jet, and he
Speaker 1: was clad in it wherever he went abroad.
Speaker 2: So this is not mythrol, No, this is not myth
Speaker 2: through that sounds similar.
Speaker 1: Well, you know it's it's it's powerful metal. Right. So,
Speaker 1: and one day he happens to be, you know, in
Speaker 1: non ell Moth, and he sees Adithel Arthaniel. He sees
Speaker 1: Rothel there, and he really thinks she's thinks she's.
Speaker 2: Something something special.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very fair. She seemed to him, and he desired her,
Speaker 1: and he set his enchantments about her so that she
Speaker 1: could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer
Speaker 1: to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There
Speaker 1: were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants
Speaker 1: as he had, silent and secret as their master. And
Speaker 1: when Arethel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors,
Speaker 1: he revealed himself, and he welcomed her and led her
Speaker 1: into his house, and there she remained for aole, took
Speaker 1: her to wife, and it was long ere any of
Speaker 1: her kN heard of her again. Now all of that
Speaker 1: sounds very you know, like like very suss right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I will say that. You know, let's include in this
Speaker 1: account it is not said that that Adithel was wholly unwilling,
Speaker 1: nor that her life and non ell Moth was hateful
Speaker 1: to her for many years.
Speaker 2: Not unwilling does not initially mean willing.
Speaker 1: Though well not and I agree, right, not wholly unwilling?
Speaker 1: So is what it says there?
Speaker 2: It is not said, Okay, yeah, it is not said.
Speaker 1: That Rthel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life and
Speaker 1: non ell Moth was hateful to her for many years.
Speaker 1: But you know, so it's kind of like it it's
Speaker 1: kind of like damning with faint praise, you know, I
Speaker 1: think it's the saying right. You know, it wasn't entirely hateful.
Speaker 1: It didn't just utterly suck. It only sucked a little bit. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: but definitely, you know, this this just right off the bat.
Speaker 1: You know, we see that Ale is a very uh
Speaker 1: he's a very problematic figure, you know, to put it
Speaker 1: in in a somewhat wishy washy academic way, right, you know,
Speaker 1: this is just not right what he does to what
Speaker 1: he does to autothel here.
Speaker 2: But isn't it what Meleon did the thingle.
Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting point, isn't it right? Yeah, But
Speaker 1: at the same time, I don't like, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean do you do you think do you think it's
Speaker 1: completely equivalent?
Speaker 3: Well, I don't want to get on down this rabbit
Speaker 3: trail too much because I know I've shared my opinions
Speaker 3: like at length on how I feel about enchantments leading area.
Speaker 1: Do we want to revisit that argument?
Speaker 3: I think truly the only difference here is that that
Speaker 3: Melion is not nearly as sus as Ale, and that
Speaker 3: was the woman taking the lead, which I'm totally fine with.
Speaker 3: I just this seems a little more sus to me
Speaker 3: because it's it's basically glorified kidnapping.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, because Ale is totally sketchy and he lives
Speaker 2: in dark woods and you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I feel like Thingle could have stood up for himself
Speaker 3: if he wanted to, but uh Arthell probably didn't feel
Speaker 3: like she could have.
Speaker 2: I feel like she was taken advantage of.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it talks about I mean
Speaker 1: she was pretty I mean she was pretty tough. She
Speaker 1: was pretty tough slaty, right, I mean she journeyed through
Speaker 1: this perilous region, which was not a small you know,
Speaker 1: this wasn't like a day's trip. This is a large
Speaker 1: region of Bellerion right, this non dunge Gorth, and it
Speaker 1: basically says she came through this region all by herself,
Speaker 1: right on the edge of edd Gorgorot. You know, in
Speaker 1: later years, this is like where Baron is going to, like,
Speaker 1: you know, spend some time and it's going to be
Speaker 1: like hell on Earth for him, you know. Yeah, so you.
Speaker 2: Know, no doubt.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying she wasn't tough, but I mean it
Speaker 3: was probably it was probably a calculated decision. I mean,
Speaker 3: what was what was her what was the alternative? No? Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean did she want to go back through that road?
Speaker 3: Probably not.
Speaker 1: I think where I land on all this? All right,
Speaker 1: so you brought I didn't even remember the whole Thingle
Speaker 1: and mellyon thing, right.
Speaker 2: I feel very strongly about those people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you do, and I I to me, it's
Speaker 1: just like, okay, it's interesting to think about like what
Speaker 1: a Tolkien intent because I feel like, you know, he's
Speaker 1: telling story. He's telling stories in a style that you
Speaker 1: know that go back to a certain you know, a
Speaker 1: certain way of thinking that's not as that's not as
Speaker 1: prevalent anymore. And it's all about this idea of like enchantment,
Speaker 1: and you know, you know, I mean you like, couldn't
Speaker 1: you say that anybody who Okay, just bear with me
Speaker 1: for a minute for the sake of argument, all right,
Speaker 1: couldn't you say that anybody who sees somebody and says
Speaker 1: like I really want, like, I think that person is
Speaker 1: the most beautiful person I've ever seen, and I'm just smitten,
Speaker 1: like love at first sight, and I have to be
Speaker 1: with that person, right, I have to have that person, right,
Speaker 1: Like a lots of love stories that we admire begin
Speaker 1: that way, right, And and people do things that you
Speaker 1: might refer to as enchanting, like putting on the mood,
Speaker 1: like you know, putting on the move, all this stuff, right,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to like, that's how we put it today.
Speaker 1: But it's like.
Speaker 3: This is a different level though, I mean, there's clearly
Speaker 3: some like unforeseen power at work, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess the question is like does she is
Speaker 1: she like without without agency? I mean I'm trying, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to read back, does she have is she basically
Speaker 1: kidnapped or like, you know, what happened, what happens here,
Speaker 1: Let's read it again. And when Artha, we were with wondering,
Speaker 1: came at last to his doors, he revealed himself, and
Speaker 1: he welcomed her, and he let and led her into
Speaker 1: his house, and there she remained for Al took her
Speaker 1: to wife, and it was long ere any of her
Speaker 1: ken heard of her again.
Speaker 2: This doesn't say I mean, I mean, if she had fought,
Speaker 2: is that kind of what you're thinking of? Like did
Speaker 2: she resist in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, well, what were the enchantments? You know,
Speaker 1: like what you know, what were the enchantments that he used?
Speaker 1: And did they like did they wear off to the
Speaker 1: at some point and she was able to like make
Speaker 1: a you know, a smarter decision or better decision. Like
Speaker 1: I don't know, to me, maybe we're reading this text
Speaker 1: in the wrong way because like it's not intended to
Speaker 1: be that kind of thing, right, Yeah, I feel like
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a is it is it unfair
Speaker 1: to like assign to like put that reading on like
Speaker 1: put that kind of reading on this in this case?
Speaker 3: But I think as we discuss and I get it,
Speaker 3: and I think that's a fair question. As we get
Speaker 3: further into this into the the chapter and actually like
Speaker 3: learn more of the story, I think it reveals something
Speaker 3: of Ale's character and I feel like he is revealed
Speaker 3: to be. I mean, he he goes after I don't okay,
Speaker 3: I don't want to get there before. But I'm saying
Speaker 3: I think what we come to learn of Ale's character
Speaker 3: makes me think that he definitely kept her there against
Speaker 3: her will.
Speaker 2: That's just my two cents.
Speaker 1: He definitely shows off a high degree of possessiveness as
Speaker 1: time goes on. Yes, and he refuses you know when
Speaker 1: when when later on, you know, and I think this
Speaker 1: is probably what you may have been referring to. But
Speaker 1: later on, when there's this desire to go back and
Speaker 1: visit Gondolin, he's.
Speaker 2: Not He's not warm to that at all, right, he's not.
Speaker 1: And he's not even happy about them going to visit
Speaker 1: an old like basically leaving non non elmouth right right exactly.
Speaker 3: So I think that that's that just shows what kind
Speaker 3: of person he is, And he's the kind of guy
Speaker 3: that wants what he wants and he's going to take
Speaker 3: it regardless of you know, consent on the others, on
Speaker 3: the other's part.
Speaker 1: But you know, but if they if they were truly okay,
Speaker 1: if let's just to say that that they were okay,
Speaker 1: like enchantment, you know, working this enchantment means that Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe he was a little like you know, used used
Speaker 1: his skills right to like kind of get her there
Speaker 1: and then and then but but then you know he
Speaker 1: charged like he just charmed her, and she like.
Speaker 2: Truly felt thing charming about him.
Speaker 1: Now you know, well let me finish, right, we don't
Speaker 1: we don't see either way, Like we don't know how
Speaker 1: he was at first. Like it doesn't basically say like
Speaker 1: and he like you know, a ret like you know,
Speaker 1: like put handcuffs on her right and never let her
Speaker 1: leave the house, right, I mean it you can read
Speaker 1: it in a way where it sounds like it sounds
Speaker 1: like damning with faint praise. That that's also Tolkien could
Speaker 1: just be speaking in such and he speaks in this
Speaker 1: kind of archaic way, and that could mean that like
Speaker 1: she actually kind of she actually liked him, you know,
Speaker 1: she actually liked him at first, right for a long time, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: That could be. That could be.
Speaker 3: But I also feel like she really didn't have another choice. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean he clearly he didn't let her leave, even
Speaker 3: when she wanted to just go on a visit. But
Speaker 3: even if she wanted to escape, escape, like she really
Speaker 3: if you look at where now in Elmouth is elmth whatever.
Speaker 3: I mean, she really has no no weather options, right,
Speaker 3: I mean unless she wants to go back through the
Speaker 3: Parallels Road, and I mean, which I guess she could
Speaker 3: have done, but at this point she has a kid,
Speaker 3: and you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well I think you know. Anyway, we talked about this
Speaker 1: particular section a lot longer than you know than I
Speaker 1: plan to you, quite honestly. But it's a really interesting
Speaker 1: discussion now that I think about it, Like there's you know,
Speaker 1: how do you how do you read this? And I
Speaker 1: think living in a particular time that we live in,
Speaker 1: with the sensitivities that we have, the cultural sensitivities that
Speaker 1: we have, we can read this in a way that
Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't quite intended to be.
Speaker 2: I think that way. I think that's fair.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I'm not necessarily defending Ale because we find
Speaker 1: out that Ale is not really, you know, this great guy, right,
Speaker 1: I mean you tell you definitely is not this great
Speaker 1: guy in the grand scheme of things. But uh, you know,
Speaker 1: if I if I try to read it in terms
Speaker 1: of how Tolkien intended it, I don't think it was
Speaker 1: intended to make him sound like he was like, you know,
Speaker 1: basically like kidnapped her and made her a sex slave.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, so this is you're just saying, this is
Speaker 3: not Beauty and the Beast, because that's kind of the
Speaker 3: flavor I'm getting. But except obviously it's like Beauty and
Speaker 3: the Beast, but without the redeeming.
Speaker 1: Without like a tragic version of beauty.
Speaker 2: It's a tragic version of Beauty and the Beast.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just not as up on beating the Beast
Speaker 1: as other people.
Speaker 2: That's basically what happens, right.
Speaker 3: She goes wandering in the woods and he catches, you know,
Speaker 3: she she wanders into his castle, and he doesn't want
Speaker 3: anybody to to, you know, to find him or his castle,
Speaker 3: so he helds her hostage in the castle, right, And
Speaker 3: she does come to love him so but still he
Speaker 3: basically forces her to stay against her will, which I
Speaker 3: don't know, that might be extreme. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 3: It just it just rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and that just made me feel bad for Aerothyl because
Speaker 3: that's not that's not what she wanted when she left Gondolin.
Speaker 3: I can't imagine that's what she wanted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, well, hey, so a lot of discussion on that.
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think in the comments below
Speaker 1: in this one, because I'm genuinely curious to see how
Speaker 1: other people read this passage. I'm I'm conflicted on it,
Speaker 1: as you can tell. So anyway, all right, moving on,
Speaker 1: So through all of this, they have a child, and
Speaker 1: the child's name is Maglin, right, So Maglin means sharp
Speaker 1: glance in Noldoran. Actually she names him Loman and that
Speaker 1: signifies child of the Twilight. And then he receives this
Speaker 1: name from his father, Meglin, which is sharp glance.
Speaker 2: So they couldn't even agree on a name.
Speaker 3: Like, he goes and changes the name that Arthell gave him,
Speaker 3: which I think is messed up.
Speaker 1: Well, well, that's it's an old door in name, right,
Speaker 1: it's so it's forbid, it's a it's in a forbidden tongue.
Speaker 2: The forbidden. Yeah, but he could have used the Oh,
Speaker 2: I see what you're saying, and he was. He did
Speaker 2: not like then old door, right, right, I understand, And
Speaker 2: it says.
Speaker 1: In her heart she gave him a name like she.
Speaker 1: I don't think he knew that. I don't think he
Speaker 1: knew that she had given him that name, right, says,
Speaker 1: it does. She gave him a name in the forbidden
Speaker 1: tongue of an old door.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Meglin uh, you know, he grows up. It
Speaker 1: says he was tall and black haired. His eyes were
Speaker 1: dark yet bright and keen as the eyes of the
Speaker 1: old door, and his skin was white. You know, he's
Speaker 1: he's pretty much uh in face and form, he resembles
Speaker 1: an old or right. So you know, that's interesting because
Speaker 1: it also gives this kind of the description of what
Speaker 1: an old or you know, physical description of what a
Speaker 1: typical nulldor might have looked like. And then we learn
Speaker 1: of uh uh. He learns of Gondolin from Rithol from
Speaker 1: his mother, right. She tells him about this place where
Speaker 1: she came from, and and he is just thinks it
Speaker 1: sounds wonderful and he wants to go there. And he
Speaker 1: tells his father that he wants to go there, and
Speaker 1: Meglin is not happy about that idea. Yep, you are
Speaker 1: the You are of the house of ale Megland, my son,
Speaker 1: he said, and not of the Golothrim. All this land
Speaker 1: is the land of the Tillari. And I will not deal,
Speaker 1: nor have my son deal with the slayers of our kin,
Speaker 1: the invaders and usurpers of our homes. In this you
Speaker 1: shall obey me, or I will set you in bonds
Speaker 1: and Meglan did not answer, but was cold and silent
Speaker 1: and went abroad no more with Ale, and Ale mistrusted him.
Speaker 1: So so yeah, uh he you know, Ale is not
Speaker 1: about to, you know, allow them to leave and go
Speaker 1: to Gondolin on this trip, but that doesn't stop Meglin
Speaker 1: from proposing it to Audthl anyway. And what ends up
Speaker 1: happening is they they make their journey.
Speaker 3: So they have to wait until well Ale has left
Speaker 3: right to go to a feast.
Speaker 1: So it comes to happen that Ale has left to
Speaker 1: go to a feast with the dwarves and and Adithel
Speaker 1: and Meglin get a two day head start. They tell
Speaker 1: they tell the servants that they're going to visit with
Speaker 1: an old Or with the sons of fan Or, but
Speaker 1: really they they go straight back to Gondolin from there.
Speaker 1: But what does happen is Ale gets home finding out
Speaker 1: they're gone, and he hears they've gone to see the
Speaker 1: sons of fan Or, and so he decides to go
Speaker 1: have a conversation with the sons of fan Or because
Speaker 1: he's not happy about this, right, and so that leads
Speaker 1: us to this very interesting, heated dialogue between one of
Speaker 1: the sons of fan Or and Ale. This one of
Speaker 1: the sons of fan Or we speak of is Kuafin
Speaker 1: who is you know? I'd basically say this, This is
Speaker 1: a conversation between two Ales. So won't you come on?
Speaker 2: That's very clever. Yes, yes, I would agree.
Speaker 1: I know. Still we can keep that clean rating, I'm
Speaker 1: telling you, I said, Ale, Ale, Yeah, yep, all right,
Speaker 1: all right, So Greta, uh, maybe we can read this
Speaker 1: back and forth since it's a dialogue. All right, Well
Speaker 1: it's not really there's like narration in it too, so
Speaker 1: why don't you go and read it?
Speaker 3: Then, Coryffin said to Ale, what errand have you dark
Speaker 3: elf in my lands?
Speaker 2: What at?
Speaker 3: An urgent matter? Perhaps that keeps one to sunshine abroad
Speaker 3: by day?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes more sense.
Speaker 3: An urgent matter, perhaps that keeps one so sunshy abroad
Speaker 3: by day. And Ale, knowing his peril, restrained the bitter
Speaker 3: words that arose in his mind. I have learned, Lord Coruyffin.
Speaker 3: He said that my son and my wife, the White
Speaker 3: Lady of Gondolin, have written to visit you while I
Speaker 3: was from home, and it seemed to me fitting that
Speaker 3: I should join them on this Errand then Cooruffon laughed
Speaker 3: at Aole, and he said, they might have found their
Speaker 3: welcome here less warm than they hoped had you accompanied them.
Speaker 3: But it is no matter, for that was not their
Speaker 3: errand it is not two days since they passed over
Speaker 3: the aras Arasiach Arosiach. And thence rode swiftly westward. It
Speaker 3: seems that you would deceive me, unless indeed you yourself
Speaker 3: have been deceived. And Aol answered, then, lord, perhaps you
Speaker 3: will give me leave to go and discover the truth
Speaker 3: of this matter. You have my leave, but not my love,
Speaker 3: said Couruffin. The sooner you depart from my land, the
Speaker 3: better will it please me. Then Eole mounted his horse, saying,
Speaker 3: it is good, Lord Couruffin, to find a kinsman thus
Speaker 3: kindly a need. I will remember it when I return.
Speaker 3: Then Couraffin looked darkly upon Aole. Do not flaunt the
Speaker 3: title of your wife before me, he said, For those
Speaker 3: who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them
Speaker 3: without gift or leave, do not gain kinship with their
Speaker 3: kin I have given you leave to go take it
Speaker 3: and be gone. By the laws of the elder, I
Speaker 3: may not slay you at this time and this council,
Speaker 3: I add, return now to your dwelling in the darkness
Speaker 3: of non Elmouth, for my heart warns me that if
Speaker 3: you now pursue those who love you no more, never
Speaker 3: will you return thither.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, uh, not a friendly conversation between those two.
Speaker 1: We will. We will see quite a bit more of Courfin,
Speaker 1: especially in the story of Baron, and Luthian.
Speaker 2: Agrees with me. Yeah, I mean I think he too
Speaker 2: thinks it's messed up.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you know, he may agree with you,
Speaker 1: but but I wouldn't be like, well, Couriffine agrees with me,
Speaker 1: So yeah, right, a Corfin is not exactly the this
Speaker 1: like moral paragon, which we find out later on. So yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I think he probably agrees with you because he's going
Speaker 1: to read whatever Ale did in the worst possible light. Now, no, again,
Speaker 1: it's clear that at some point Arithel is there against
Speaker 1: her will, right, And uh so you know I get that,
Speaker 1: and I'm not I'm not trying to say aol is
Speaker 1: like this guy who's just been totally wronged and like
Speaker 1: the way he's presented. I'm just saying, like going back,
Speaker 1: just going back to that argument real quick. All I'm saying.
Speaker 1: All I'm saying, people, is what's the right way to
Speaker 1: read that? How did Tolkien intend for that for us
Speaker 1: to understand that initially? All right, That's all I'm asking.
Speaker 2: All right, it's a fair question.
Speaker 1: So okay, So yeah, basically we keep on hearing these
Speaker 1: foreboding words that you know, hey, you know, something bad
Speaker 1: is going to come of this if you try to
Speaker 1: follow these people that don't love you anymore. But of course,
Speaker 1: I mean aol, I mean, he's going to be he's
Speaker 1: going to be really mad about this because not only
Speaker 1: did they leave without asking him, but they lied to
Speaker 1: him about where they were, about where they were going.
Speaker 2: But he set himself up for that.
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't say, I'm just saying he is going
Speaker 1: to be like he is going to be there's no
Speaker 1: way he's going back to no, no, right right him?
Speaker 1: Right in terms of his character?
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I'm just really impressed that he was able to
Speaker 3: catch them because he went like he basically went the
Speaker 3: wrong way, right and then and they had a two
Speaker 3: day head start and he's still caught up with them,
Speaker 3: which is pretty crazy to me. I mean, was his
Speaker 3: horse just like really fast or did he not stop
Speaker 3: for pee breaks or.
Speaker 1: Like, well, there's two of them, and yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're riding fast, you know, if you've got if
Speaker 1: you've got anger and adrenaline on your side, then you know,
Speaker 1: you might be riding a little faster, right.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So and he probably he probably learned that, you know,
Speaker 1: he probably knew that there was no way that if
Speaker 1: they got into Gondolin before he reached them, then there
Speaker 1: was no way he was going to find them, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: then then they were lost.
Speaker 2: So he's probably wouldn't know the road, right, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he figured out if he didn't know before
Speaker 1: he met Rathel, I'm sure he he learned about Gondolin,
Speaker 1: you know, and like this the deal with Gondolin from her.
Speaker 1: I don't think she told him the hidden road or
Speaker 1: anything like that, right anyway, But so he they arrive
Speaker 1: and they're they're betrayed by their horses, right because the
Speaker 1: horses neigh very loudly. And then Ale's horse hears ther,
Speaker 1: here's those horses, and he finds them just in time
Speaker 1: to follow them without them seeing him, right, so he's
Speaker 1: able to follow them through. Then, by ill fate, they
Speaker 1: were portrayed. For the horses made loudly, and Ale's steed
Speaker 1: heard them and sped towards them. And Ale saw from
Speaker 1: afar that white raiment of Atithel and marked which way
Speaker 1: she went, seeking the secret path into the mountains. All right,
Speaker 1: so they returned to Gondolin. Everyone is of course happy
Speaker 1: to see Adithel after all this time, and h of course,
Speaker 1: no one more so than tor Gone. And and he's
Speaker 1: very he's very warm, you know, towards Maglin. He really
Speaker 1: he sees mag and he's like, all right, well here's
Speaker 1: a you know, true true son of you know, true
Speaker 1: son of the knoldor right here, right, this is a
Speaker 1: you know, this is a pleasant surprise, right.
Speaker 3: And and Turn himself has no heir, right because he
Speaker 3: only has a daughter. So I'm sure he saw Maglin
Speaker 3: and was like, oh.
Speaker 1: Well, and and actually you know this something we didn't
Speaker 1: mention earlier. But when Maglin's first hears about he when
Speaker 1: he when his mother first tells him about Gondolin, and
Speaker 1: you know, kind of describes that situation, right, you know,
Speaker 1: he learns like, Okay, he's like, you know this this
Speaker 1: son of the king's sister, right, and the king has
Speaker 1: no heir. Right, He's like, you know, it doesn't say directly,
Speaker 1: but you could's like, you know, he's calculating, right, it's
Speaker 1: it talks about him. He's kind, oh, I could be
Speaker 1: the king of Gondolin maybe, Okay, yeah, all right, So
Speaker 1: so that's all part of you know, his his desire
Speaker 1: right to want to come back to Gondolin and and
Speaker 1: to see it and to dwell there. And you know,
Speaker 1: they know that once they're back, they're really probably is
Speaker 1: not going to be any more leaving at that point.
Speaker 1: But Aol does uh does show up as well, and
Speaker 1: he's he's of course caught by the guards as he's
Speaker 1: coming into Gondolin, uh, And they bring him before Torgon
Speaker 1: and and they, you know, tor Goon basically gives him
Speaker 1: the you know, basically gives him the what for.
Speaker 2: Is actually pretty nice to well, I would have been
Speaker 2: that nice to he.
Speaker 1: Is, but he, you know, he does he gives them
Speaker 1: a little bit of the what for. But but we'll
Speaker 1: read this passage here. And so it was done, and
Speaker 1: Ale was brought to Torgon's hall, and stood before his
Speaker 1: high seat, proud and sullen. Though he was amazed no
Speaker 1: less than his son. At all that he saw, his
Speaker 1: heart was filled the more with anger and with hate
Speaker 1: of an oldor. But Torgon treated him with honor, and
Speaker 1: rose up and would take his hand, and he said, welcome, kinsman.
Speaker 1: For so I hold you here. You shall dwell at
Speaker 1: your pleasure, save only that you must here abide and
Speaker 1: depart not from my kingdom. For it is my law
Speaker 1: that none who finds the way hither shall depart. But
Speaker 1: Ale withdrew his hand. I acknowledge not your law, he said.
Speaker 1: No right have you or any of your can in
Speaker 1: this land to seize realms or to set bounds, either
Speaker 1: here or there. This is the land of the Tillary,
Speaker 1: to which you bring war, and all in quiet dealing,
Speaker 1: ever proudly and unjustly, I care nothing for your secrets.
Speaker 1: Night can came not to spy upon you, but to
Speaker 1: claim my own, my wife, and my son. Yet if
Speaker 1: in Atathel your sister you have some claim, then let
Speaker 1: her remain. Let the bird go back to the cage,
Speaker 1: where soon she will sicken again, as she sickened before
Speaker 1: but not so Meglin, my son, you shall not withhold
Speaker 1: from me, Come Meglan, son of Ale, Your father commands
Speaker 1: you leave the house of his enemies in the slayers
Speaker 1: of his ken, or be accursed. But Meglin answered nothing.
Speaker 1: Then Torgon sat in his high seat, holding the staff
Speaker 1: of his staff of Denys, and in a stern voice, spoke,
Speaker 1: I will not debate with you, dark elf, by the
Speaker 1: swords of then old or alone? Are you are? Are
Speaker 1: you are? Your sunless woods defended your freedom to wander there,
Speaker 1: wild wild, you owe to my ken, and but for them,
Speaker 1: long since you would have labored, enthralled them in the
Speaker 1: pits of angband. And here I am king. And whether
Speaker 1: you will it or will it not, my doom is law.
Speaker 1: This choice only is given to you to abide here
Speaker 1: or to die here. And so also for your son.
Speaker 1: So you know, Ale, he he's not a team player, right,
Speaker 1: He sees things a certain way, you know, And he's
Speaker 1: a very I mean, he's just an interesting character in
Speaker 1: that way, right, He's just this curmudgeonly kind of figure, right.
Speaker 1: It doesn't you know, doesn't want a whole lot to
Speaker 1: do with anybody else, wants to be left alone. In general.
Speaker 1: That's why he lives deep in the woods. And you know,
Speaker 1: he doesn't respect then old or he thinks that they are,
Speaker 1: that they're they're unwelcome, that they brought trouble, and he's
Speaker 1: not about to you know, be berated by this, you know,
Speaker 1: and told he has to stay and be berated by this,
Speaker 1: you know, by this king who he used as a pretender.
Speaker 1: Right yep, uh, you know, someone unrightful. So what's Ale's
Speaker 1: what's Ale going to do in this case? I mean
Speaker 1: he's going to try He's going to try and kill somebody, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's basically where he's at. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, you might argue that he could have you know,
Speaker 1: he could have calculated or bied his time or something
Speaker 1: like that, which Mageland seems to be doing. But Ale
Speaker 1: is just he's not wired that way. And so Al
Speaker 1: it turns out he's hiding he's been hiding a javelin
Speaker 1: this whole time, poison tip javelin. He attempts to kill Maglin,
Speaker 1: and Arathel throws herself in front of him and ends
Speaker 1: up being the one that's wounded and mortally wounded. So
Speaker 1: Al was responsible for the death of Meglin, which is
Speaker 1: the I'm sorry for the death of Adothel, even though
Speaker 1: he was trying to kill me. He was trying to
Speaker 1: kill megln and responsible for the death of Adothel. Now
Speaker 1: Arthel had had basically before she died, she'd said, you know, look,
Speaker 1: just have mercy on him, right, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: we don't need to put him to death or anything
Speaker 1: like that. But then she dies and it's like, well
Speaker 1: that's there goes that, right, Yeah, all bets are off
Speaker 1: at this point. Therefore, when Ale was brought before Torgon,
Speaker 1: he found no mercy, and they led him forth to
Speaker 1: the cad a precipice of place, a precipice of black rock,
Speaker 1: upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there
Speaker 1: to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city.
Speaker 1: And Meglin stood by and said nothing. But at the
Speaker 1: last Ale cried out, so you forsake your father and
Speaker 1: his kin, ill gotten son. Here shall you fail of
Speaker 1: all your hopes, and here may you yet die the
Speaker 1: same death as I. So meg Glynn doesn't speak up
Speaker 1: for him, and they Ol basically curses him. Then they
Speaker 1: cast Ale over the cartag door, and so he ended
Speaker 1: into all and Gondolin it seemed just. But Idril was
Speaker 1: troubled and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman, and
Speaker 1: so I take it that to me. And she's troubled
Speaker 1: by the fact that they put him to death, right
Speaker 1: Is that how you understood that? Does she was troubled by,
Speaker 1: uh by by the fact that they put you know,
Speaker 1: basically gave a the death penalty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how I read it too.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it seems like that's that seems like
Speaker 1: what it's saying right there.
Speaker 3: I think we failed to mention earlier that Idrill that
Speaker 3: Mageland has.
Speaker 2: A thing for Drill.
Speaker 3: Yes, Andril is the daughter of Tehran, that's right, So
Speaker 3: I mean they're technically cousins. Yeah, right, yeah, Dril does
Speaker 3: not feel the same, right, But anyway.
Speaker 1: Well that's that's what Yeah. Well, and it kind of
Speaker 1: says that that was the first half of that quote
Speaker 1: of our quote of the week.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that it refers to you.
Speaker 1: Know what it refers to. But anyway, al Ale dies.
Speaker 1: But Meglin, you know, really is he's kind of held
Speaker 1: in high esteem in the court of Torgon and says
Speaker 1: he's wise in counsel and wary and yet hearty and
Speaker 1: valiant at need. Right, he takes part in some of
Speaker 1: the great battles they're going to happen. So you know,
Speaker 1: he is a he's quite quite an individual, even though
Speaker 1: he's pretty quiet like his father. Right, he doesn't, he's
Speaker 1: kind of an elf A few words, right, But yes,
Speaker 1: he does have a He does have a thing for Idril. Right,
Speaker 1: For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne
Speaker 1: a grief, ever worsening that robbed him of all joy.
Speaker 1: He loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without
Speaker 1: hope the Eldar wedded, not with Ken so near, nor
Speaker 1: ever before, had any desire to do so. First cousins,
Speaker 1: and however that might be, Idril loved Meglin not at all,
Speaker 1: and knowing his thought of her, she loved him the less,
Speaker 1: for it seemed to her a strange thing and crooked
Speaker 1: in him. As indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed
Speaker 1: it an evil fruit of the kin slaying, whereby the
Speaker 1: shadow of the curse of mind fell upon the last
Speaker 1: hope of then Olldor. You know, so, pretty pretty adult,
Speaker 1: pretty adult themed, pretty adult themes going on here, right,
Speaker 1: you know? We we we talk about the controversy over
Speaker 1: just you know, the controversy of Ale and his enchantment
Speaker 1: of Atathel right to lead off the chapter. And then
Speaker 1: we have you know, Meglin and his uh, you know,
Speaker 1: his desire for you know, basically his first cousin. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's interesting to see you know, this kind of
Speaker 1: a how should we put it? Right? This like you know,
Speaker 1: this this thing repeating itself right in the life of
Speaker 1: in the life of Meglin that was you know, some
Speaker 1: some kind of issue of his father's as well, right,
Speaker 1: you know, you're just like, yeah, this is not going
Speaker 1: to play out well, this is this is this is
Speaker 1: not gonna end well. And you know that's essentially the
Speaker 1: tragedy of this figure Meglin. And by the way, you know,
Speaker 1: this is an interesting chapter to kind of be inserted
Speaker 1: here into this sulm really, because you know, someone has
Speaker 1: been jumping back and forth between chapters that are like
Speaker 1: talking about like who rules what realm and maps and
Speaker 1: you know, we had all several chapters where we were
Speaker 1: talking about like the the noldor leaving vallenor and so
Speaker 1: you know it's just kind of this some runs kind
Speaker 1: of this roller coaster in this chapter, like well, what
Speaker 1: does this chapter have to do with anything? Right, It's
Speaker 1: just kind of the story of this dark elf and
Speaker 1: it's just this sad story about like you know this
Speaker 1: you know how he he enchanted this you know this
Speaker 1: elf lady and you know they had a child together
Speaker 1: and then he he killed her when he was trying
Speaker 1: to kill his son because he was mad that they
Speaker 1: wouldn't leave with him, right, And like, what does this
Speaker 1: have to do with anything? Well, it's it's it's sowing
Speaker 1: seeds for greater tragedies later because of what it's doing, right,
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's this idea that like it really
Speaker 1: is like that the Oath of Fan or the Curse
Speaker 1: of Mandos, like all these things are going to manifest
Speaker 1: and really, uh more and more tragic ways as the
Speaker 1: rest of the story unfolds.
Speaker 2: It this seems pretty tragic to me.
Speaker 1: Well it is, it is, and you know, I mean
Speaker 1: many tears to be shed over.
Speaker 2: This, yeah, yeah, there's are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and the truth is that Maglin is going
Speaker 1: to play a big part in that, right, So all right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: any final thoughts there, Greta.
Speaker 2: All right, good discussion.
Speaker 1: I think you got a haiku?
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, are you in rock paper scissors.
Speaker 1: Rock paper scissors, shoot boom. First all right, dark Elf
Speaker 1: of deep Woods, Lady of Hidden Haven, child of sharp Secrets.
Speaker 2: It's really good. I like that a lot. Well done.
Speaker 2: All right, here's man.
Speaker 3: And that's why you don't marry sketchy yelves that live
Speaker 3: in sunless forests.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm nice. Yeah, spoken like the guy on Arrested Development.
Speaker 2: If only I had a mic drop.
Speaker 1: That's why you listen to your father, I'm saying, that's
Speaker 1: why you don't yell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, it's just nothing good could come of it,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, clearly nothing.
Speaker 1: To Okay, Well, all right, I'm just I'm curious to
Speaker 1: know though, like, like what, what to you is the
Speaker 1: distinction between single melion and uh like what because you
Speaker 1: brought it up right melyon, but discuss this, okay. I
Speaker 1: just kind of want to come back the final your
Speaker 1: final word on it. I'm just I'm interested, okay.
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, melion not nearly as sketchy as ale.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, She's.
Speaker 1: Like the sketchiness factor has.
Speaker 3: Definitely a big arger sketchiness factor or here, and the
Speaker 3: fact that the male was enchanting the female automatically makes
Speaker 3: it more not okay for me, And I mean Melian
Speaker 3: was gorgeous and so is Thingle, so I was totally
Speaker 3: fine with that, you know. I mean I still feel
Speaker 3: like and Thingle could have stood up for himself. I
Speaker 3: think that's why I just feel and not, oh gosh,
Speaker 3: I'm really need to careful about what I say here.
Speaker 3: Not that Arithel could not have stood up for herself,
Speaker 3: but I feel like if Thingle wanted to leave, it
Speaker 3: would have been much easier for him to leave. I mean,
Speaker 3: first of all, he was in a better part, Like
Speaker 3: he was not in the same I guess they were
Speaker 3: in the same forest, but still like he's he he,
Speaker 3: he just would have had more of an ability to
Speaker 3: get out of that situation than Arethel did, just given
Speaker 3: the fact that she's a woman.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, that's just me, all right, what I
Speaker 1: just I think it's really I you know, I was
Speaker 1: just kind of set on, like, yeah, Ale was being
Speaker 1: a bad dude, and then we brought the meg we
Speaker 1: brought the Dingle and melee on thing into it.
Speaker 3: How can we know because it's like it's obviously the
Speaker 3: same thing but reversed a little bit.
Speaker 1: Well, No, That's all I'm saying is like, when we
Speaker 1: brought that into the equation, I was like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: what is the difference? Wait a minute, what's going Like?
Speaker 1: How do we how do we you know, how do
Speaker 1: we assess that? Right? And I was like, because because
Speaker 1: we don't look at Thingle and melee On and say like,
Speaker 1: how dare melee On? Right, It's like it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like Thingle was like saw this like the most beautiful
Speaker 1: of like all creatures he'd probably ever seen, right, and
Speaker 1: was just completely enchanted with her, and she was enchanted
Speaker 1: with him.
Speaker 2: Right, So maybe that's the thing. It was more consensual.
Speaker 3: I feel like between Thingle and meley On, this gives
Speaker 3: me the air of not being consensual.
Speaker 2: Okay, Like there is more of a force, there's more
Speaker 2: of a.
Speaker 1: I can see that. I can definitely see that, esecially
Speaker 1: as time went on. You know. But but you know,
Speaker 1: this is I think I thought it was a really
Speaker 1: worthwhile conversation.
Speaker 2: So I completely agree.
Speaker 3: I completely agree, and I'm really interested to.
Speaker 2: Hear what our listeners think about Yes for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let us know in the comments below. All right, everybody,
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Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, I don't know, maybe we're
Speaker 3: doing something right if we got some naysayers leaving comments.
Speaker 1: I mean definitely, like one of the last ones was
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Speaker 1: was some like, you know, complaint about how we're like
Speaker 1: injecting Christianity into all this.
Speaker 2: We've heard that before.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I'm just like, oh, thank you. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about that, right, Yeah, you know, I'll make another video
Speaker 1: on that topic and you can watch it. There you go, right, yay,
Speaker 1: all right, it's good.
Speaker 2: To ruffle some feathers now and.
Speaker 1: Then as long as you're uffling the right feathers.
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