WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.799 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? 2 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:04.799 Easy? 3 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.560 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You 4 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.320 get access to a private RSS feed where all the 5 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.599 shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, we'll get 6 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:18.440 you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign 7 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:34.560 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey 8 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.240 guess what, it's dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin at 9 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:41.039 amiraterid Cabell. We're here again for the nineteen hundredth and 10 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:42.399 sixty first time. 11 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:43.039 Well you. 12 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:47.920 Okay, you're here for the eighteen hundred and sixtieth time. 13 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:50.000 I think something like that. Second. 14 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:55.039 I'm the new guy, remember new guy new the new guy. Yeah, 15 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:57.880 we are the OG podcast certainly when it comes to development, 16 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:01.359 and one of the first five that's still existence since 17 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:05.120 podcast hit the ground running. We've been going since August 18 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:08.959 two thousand and two, A long, long, long, long time. 19 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:11.959 It's been a while. Yeah, how are you, Richard? I'm good. 20 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:15.200 It's summertime, and summertime it's good. Sometimes it's beautiful on 21 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:15.560 the coast. 22 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:18.640 It's a little hot where I am, but it's not bad. 23 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:20.959 It's not bad. It could be worse. Well, and she 24 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:24.319 who must be obeyed is turning sixty, so I've well, 25 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:25.920 at this point we'll have thrown that party. 26 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.680 So wow, it's always congratulations Stace. All right, let's roll 27 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:33.680 the crazy music because I've got something for Hannas for 28 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:35.280 better no framework awesome? 29 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:43.959 All right, man, what do you got? 30 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:46.280 Since this is episode nineteen sixty one, you can go 31 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:50.120 to nineteen sixty one dot dot me and that brings 32 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:54.560 you to this article from Menga, which is just somebody's 33 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.719 blog I think. I don't even know the name of 34 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.719 the person, doesn't even say all right, but anyway, it's 35 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:06.400 called computerized guitars and whether they're worth buying or not. 36 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:10.960 I know, Hanness plays guitar and makes guitars and yeah. 37 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:11.840 Builds guitars. 38 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:16.599 Yes, he's a guitar guy, right, Yeah, So this article 39 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:23.000 basically says nobody likes these electronic you know, computerized guitars. Really, 40 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:25.439 nobody likes them. Nobody wants one. 41 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:29.240 There's some weird experiments out there, like there are Gibson 42 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:34.120 experiment with de robotic tuners and volunteery that that's great, 43 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:36.759 and nobody seems to want that on their guitar. 44 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:37.759 That's just it. You know. 45 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:41.520 The sales say that they're cool, but nobody wants them, 46 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:44.360 like the Gibson Firebird X, which is I think the one, 47 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:46.680 or Firebird ten, which is I think what you're talking about, 48 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:50.800 and the Les Paul Robot guitar was another one. But 49 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:55.680 this is without question the most computerized electric guitar in 50 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:59.639 the market right now. It has everything on it. The 51 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:03.199 only it doesn't have is sales. Nice nobody bought it, 52 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:08.039 and Gibson actually ended up crushing, like with a bulldozer, 53 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.719 about a hundred of these things because they were a 54 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:15.840 liability to have on the books, because they got had 55 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:18.159 to get rid of their inventory, and because nobody was 56 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:18.719 buying them. 57 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:24.879 Weirdly, Yeah, like every every guitar manufacturer that does strangely 58 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:29.360 innovative stuff has been has been having trouble selling them. 59 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:31.840 Like my favorite guitar that I own is a park 60 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:35.520 Or Fly, which was way ahead of its time, and 61 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:38.759 they struggled to sell them. Yeah, although they were selling 62 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.520 guitars that were actually work twice what they were selling 63 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:45.360 them for, but nobody bought them because they were so unconventional. 64 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:49.199 Yeah, and so let me just point out the other 65 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.080 ones here the Fender Veg stratocaster, and I actually have 66 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:55.280 one of these, but it was before that it was 67 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:58.319 the Fender Veg. It's a Fender strat, but it also 68 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:02.120 has the role In logo on it because you can 69 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:07.280 connect it to the rollin VG system and it's got 70 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:09.879 the right pick up in there and all. But as 71 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:14.080 a strat, it's just kind of bleuh right, I have 72 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.399 a strat plus that I love. I mean, it's hard 73 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:19.160 to keep in tune and all that stuff, like a 74 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:22.279 regular strat is, but at least it's a good sounding strat. 75 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:26.720 The isn't the question here why people play guitar, because 76 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.480 most people who play guitar aren't making money playing guitar. No, 77 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:32.079 that's true, sadly no. 78 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.920 They also mentioned the epiphone Les Paul Ultra, which has 79 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:39.319 a USB port where you can connect the guitar to 80 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.360 you know, your computer. The problem with that is that 81 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.879 he says here too, machines and computers just don't mix 82 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:52.319 when it comes to guitars. An electric guitar is a 83 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:54.959 machine that by nature is a very physical instrument. This 84 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:57.920 isn't like a synthesizer where it just sits there and 85 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:00.360 you play it with a guitar, you sit down way that, 86 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:02.240 you stand up with that you move around playing and 87 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:07.839 so on. But most players consider these computerized guitars not 88 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:11.639 real instruments because, let's face it, the sound of playing 89 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:17.199 a synth through a guitar is just no, it's just bad. 90 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.480 So they're out there. I think if I was going 91 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:24.839 to get one, I'd just get an automatic tuning one 92 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:25.519 and leave it at that. 93 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:30.639 Actually that system works, it's not that yeah, yeah, it's 94 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:33.680 just good. Well, in this blog post is thirteen years old. 95 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:36.240 You think the technology has probably moved on a little 96 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:36.839 from there. 97 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.199 Yeah, a little bit, but I mean those are still 98 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:41.680 not that much though. Those are still the models that 99 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:44.199 you know that people like, except for the Fiber ten, 100 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:46.519 which is not available anywhere. 101 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:50.199 Actually, the musician that has done the weirdest stuff to 102 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:53.079 some of their guitars that a lot of people might 103 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:57.079 know about is Matt Bellamy from muse Be built in 104 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:01.720 like x Y controllers that control synthesizers that were like 105 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:06.000 controlled from his guitar and built in effects into the 106 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:09.800 body of the guitar. Like that had more electronics in 107 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:13.199 it than a lot of other instruments out there. 108 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:13.639 Right. 109 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:16.600 Well, and then you got guys like Brian May who 110 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:20.279 just made a very unique sounding guitar working with phase 111 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:25.000 cancelation and phasing and all that stuff. But you know 112 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:28.839 he's just just built by himself, Yeah, and his father, Yeah, out. 113 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.439 Of very unconventional woods in the guitar world. He used 114 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:34.680 things like oh, which nobody he uses. 115 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.959 Yeah. So anyway, that's what I got today. And I 116 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:40.439 thought we would have a nice conversation about guitars, and 117 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:40.959 we did so. 118 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.920 Yeah. Richard, who's talking to us today, grabbed a comment 119 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.199 off a show nineteen thirty nine, which is the one 120 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.920 we did with Jeremy Miller talking about vertical slice architecture, 121 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:51.319 and I know we got into events, sourcing and things 122 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:53.600 with him at one point or another. Two. This comment 123 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:57.360 comes from cash bon Fields, who said, you mentioned the 124 00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:59.639 buzz factor, which is how many people could be hit 125 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.199 by a by while the project still survives. I have 126 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:05.079 been recently considering the opposite, how many people should be 127 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:07.079 hit by a bus for a project to be effective. 128 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.079 The bus should most often be used for selecting managers, 129 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:15.199 though I think there's a little anger in their cash. 130 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:19.759 You want to talk to someone, don't don't hurt anybody. No, 131 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:23.439 I get you. You know, there's definitely that effect of this. 132 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:26.120 You know, how many cooks before you spoil the soup 133 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:29.879 kind of thing, right, And we were six months behind 134 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:31.480 on the project, so they had a developer. Now we're 135 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:38.079 nine months behind on the project. People don't understand how 136 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:40.240 to fix things. Hey, I got you the I got 137 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:42.759 your book Mythical Man month, but actually got you two 138 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:47.720 of them so you can read it twice as fast. Boom, yeah, Cash, 139 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:49.199 Thank you so much for your comment, and a copy 140 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:50.560 of music Coba is on its way to you. And 141 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:52.199 if you'd like a copy of music Cobe. I read 142 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:54.120 a comment on the website at dot and rocks dot 143 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.600 com on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and 144 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.199 if you comment there and I read it on the show, 145 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:00.360 we'll send you a copy of music. Go buy Cobey 146 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:01.319 is still going strong. 147 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:05.959 Twenty two chapters if you call them or episodes or tracks, 148 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:06.639 I guess I. 149 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:07.600 Kind of like chapters. 150 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.879 Twenty two tracks, yeah, whatever you want to call them. 151 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:13.680 There's twenty two musical tracks and they're all twenty five 152 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:17.639 minutes long, perfect for your Pomadoro technique. Music took code 153 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.240 by dot net all right, before we bring on Haness 154 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:25.759 what happened in nineteen sixty one besides John F. Kennedy's inauguration, 155 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:29.120 after which he immediately invaded. 156 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:33.679 Cuba by pigs thigs. Yeah, I don't know, just parallel, 157 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.000 maybe kind of a hairy year, no two ways about it, 158 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:36.720 and without a dough. 159 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.000 Yeah, the establishment of the Peace Corps and Juriga Garin 160 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:45.639 became their first official human to travel into space. Additionally, 161 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:49.120 the and directly into orbit too, you know, yeah, she 162 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:51.679 orbited as opposed to you know, the US first effort 163 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.039 with Alan Shepard in the sub ardable flight. Yeah, yeah, 164 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.240 so I know, there's all the Beatles came in, you 165 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:00.600 know around there, I said, the Peace Corps, some nuclear 166 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:05.159 testing was going on in the Soviet Union, and the 167 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:08.399 Academy Awards thirty third Academy Awards took place, with the 168 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:11.639 Apartment winning Best Picture. You know, just some random trivia. 169 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.080 But you've got the reallest Richard, what really happened in 170 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:16.000 nineteen sixty one? 171 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:18.720 I mean I always go off to the invention side, 172 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:21.639 just because you know, so many cool things are made. 173 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:25.120 Sixty one is when the first industrial robot is deployed 174 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:28.840 into a factory. It's called Unimate. It had been developed 175 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:32.399 in the fifties by George Deval and General Motors puts 176 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:38.159 it into a automotive factory to remove metal parts from 177 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:41.039 a die caster. So a die caster is basically a 178 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:44.919 big hydraulic ram. You put sheets of metal into it 179 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:47.039 and it slams them into the shape of like a 180 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:51.320 door panel. But that force that molds that that quickly 181 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.799 makes the metal really HoTT. So not when a person 182 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:57.080 has handled at any clubs and things, is very easy 183 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.240 get burned like it's dangerous work. And so having the 184 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:02.600 robot deal with that we made a lot of sense. Made sense. Yeah, 185 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.600 And over the next decade or so, automation would come 186 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.480 throughout the factory process. So it begins in sixty one 187 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:11.480 with the Unimate. A little corollary to that, as they 188 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:15.600 were celebrating the Unimate success, it got an appearance on 189 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:18.320 Johnny Carson and poured a cup of coffee. 190 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.759 I think I do remember that. Yeah, yeah, it was 191 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:24.519 ninety sixty one. You were not born yet, no, but 192 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:27.440 I saw the rerun that was a famous famous clips. 193 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:30.240 Could be famous episode. Nineteen sixty one is also the 194 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:36.759 first integrated circuit in production. Now I step into this 195 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:41.720 very carefully because it is a hotly contested topic. In fact, 196 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:45.200 it's got a Wikipedia entry just on the invention of 197 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.240 the integrated circuit, because there's lots of arguments here. I mean, 198 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:51.080 for I mean meaning who did it first? Yeah? And 199 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:53.960 what represents an integrated circuit? Mean, we'd been messed around 200 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:55.840 with semi conductors for a while, We've made a bunch 201 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:59.240 of different kinds of transistors. You've got Back at fifty 202 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:04.320 twosh radio engineer Jeffrey Dummer was making semiconductor circuits. There's 203 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:10.360 also Harwick Johnson, Sydney Darlington, Yasatarui. But it really comes 204 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:12.279 down to two people for the most I think most 205 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.960 people agree. Now it's Jack Kilby of Texas Instruments with 206 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:19.360 a thing he called the hybrid ice, so some discrete 207 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:24.039 components and some integrated in a containerized package with pins, 208 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:27.559 and of Robert Nois of Fairschald Semiconductor, who's also the 209 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.399 guy who later goes on to form Intel with his 210 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.519 monolithic ices. 211 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:35.000 So the integrated circuit means everything is on one ship 212 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:38.759 with the pins and the transistors are mounted inside that. 213 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:41.639 That's the idea, and there's a bunch but if you're 214 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:43.919 looking at just the packaging, So I have a package 215 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:45.480 with pins on it, and it has a bunch of 216 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:48.240 stuff in it, and it does a particular task that's 217 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:53.320 pretty integrated. But then you get into what's actually inside 218 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:56.600 that package, and you know, Noise is designed with what 219 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:59.320 they call the monolithic icee is actually a layers of 220 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:05.240 ustrate silicon crystal that are doped into different potentials so 221 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:08.120 that they can be etched together to make transistors and 222 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:11.240 resistors and other components. I get it. Yeah, Killey's approach 223 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:12.320 was more discreete. 224 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:16.000 So ICs continued to evolve and get more powerful. But 225 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:18.480 you're calling that one the first because it was the 226 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:21.600 first contained integrated. 227 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.159 Well, I called the first really going in ninety sixty 228 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:26.240 one is when it was first made into a product, 229 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:30.799 at least briefly, and it was you know, the nexus 230 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:34.200 of this is in two thousand, Jack Kilby was given 231 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.440 the Nobel Prize in Physics for his quote unquote contributions 232 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.279 integrated circuit and created a huge fuss around all that 233 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:44.759 because Kilby's design that the hybrid icee doesn't last. Ultimately, 234 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:47.720 Noises design is what makes integrated circuits to this day. 235 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:50.720 Although limittedly. The technology has evolved a lot, but in 236 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:56.720 nineteen sixty one, Texas Instruments started manufacturing a product called 237 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:02.039 the Multivibrator five h two. Inside of that package, some 238 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:05.519 of it some silicon substrates, some discrete were two transistors, 239 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:08.960 four diode, six resistors, and two capacitors to be used 240 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.720 as a waveform generator, which was part of a miniaturized 241 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.039 radio receiver for the US Air Force. Wow. So they 242 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.919 made a few hundred of these and built the test articles, 243 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.720 and it ultimately failed, like in the end, it wasn't 244 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:26.519 sturdy enough, but it set the big path for integrated 245 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.759 circuits in that kind of ministriization at that time called 246 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.000 molecular electronics because they were so small even though they 247 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:36.679 were not molecule size in aerospace, and the Air Force 248 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.639 would lead on this for quite a while. It leads 249 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.279 to the ICBM and a bunch of other technology. But 250 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:43.039 the first, you know, you can kind of hang your 251 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.519 head on, Texas Instruments produce this first thing they called 252 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:48.840 the integrated circuit, even though it was a design that 253 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:52.000 ultimately fell into obsolescence in the model ethic ic would 254 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:54.440 go on from there. Wow big one though, like I said, 255 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.759 it's not simple. Yeah, it is. 256 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:02.320 Something simpler that we may all remember. Nineteen sixty one, 257 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:06.840 Phillips introduced the audio cassette, the Compactus that we would 258 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:11.559 all remember from compact cassette player from our Walkman's Wow 259 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:12.639 throughout the eighties. 260 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.960 The Walkman's Walkman's is still twenty years away at that point. 261 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.600 But yeah, I know, I know, but wow, you know 262 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:20.000 what I you know, I pulled up a graphic on 263 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.240 the other day on on the Nakamichi autocassett player because 264 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:24.679 it was the one that would flip the tape. I 265 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:25.159 have one. 266 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.039 It's right there. Actually, yeah, I have one. It doesn't 267 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:30.120 work it, Yeah, flips the tape. 268 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.120 Over, pops the thing would pop out, turn the tape over, 269 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:33.320 and go back because they didn't want to try and 270 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:36.559 adjust the head alignments to play both both sides of 271 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:37.240 the tape. You know. 272 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.159 Yeah, classics. Okay, all right, cool stuff. So I guess 273 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:44.840 we can introduce Hannis officially. You've heard him talk there. 274 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:49.639 But Hannis Lauette started his dot net career during college 275 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:53.279 with Framework one point one. He continued this trend in 276 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:55.720 his first jobs and has been using dot net ever 277 00:14:55.879 --> 00:15:00.000 since to deliver projects. For many different clients. He's always 278 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.879 has had a passion for back end development in his projects. 279 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:07.159 He's always gravitated to problems that involves scaling, architecture and complexity. 280 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:09.879 Because of that, he developed a love for event driven 281 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.840 architectures that fits with what we're going to talk about. 282 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:19.399 Since twenty eleven, surprise, surprise, Yeah, yeah, Since twenty eleven, 283 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.840 he's been working for ACES in Belgium. 284 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:22.600 Is that how you say it? 285 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:28.919 Yes, ax Xes currently as principal consultant. Aside from his 286 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:32.399 technical role, Hannas has always been driven by helping other 287 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:36.879 developers grow. He actively coaches people, runs workshops, gives conference talks, 288 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.240 and is a course author on dome Train is free time. 289 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:43.080 You can find him on stage playing guitar for line Breakers, 290 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:47.159 The line Breakers, I guess that's the line Breaker Dylan's band. 291 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:47.480 Right. 292 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:50.360 When he's not doing things with his three children, he 293 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:54.960 builds guitars, plays chess badly in parentheses, I didn't write this, 294 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:59.960 and loves tasting whiskey and who doesn't to keep moving. 295 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.039 He loves to mountain, bike or swim. All right, Hannas, 296 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.759 The floor is All of those things are true. Wow, yeah, 297 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:09.799 And the floor is yours. I'm sorry, I'm pretty sure 298 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:10.519 you wrote this. 299 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:13.639 I'm just yeah, I kind I kind of sent this 300 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:16.679 to Krawl in events. But hey, thanks for having me, 301 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:19.879 Thanks for having show. I'm embarrassed almost that we haven't 302 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:22.080 had you before at this point. Well, this is your 303 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:24.360 first appearance on dot Ney Rocks, even though we've hung 304 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:28.639 out at conferences and seen each other talk. Yeah many times. 305 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:30.960 So welcome, Thank you, Thanks for having. 306 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.360 The floor is yours? You're going to talk about event sourcing. 307 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:38.080 I guess maybe other things, maybe other shoes. Yeah, let's 308 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.600 see where the conversation goes. Should we start with the 309 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:43.000 elevator pitch? What is event sourcing? If you've been hiding 310 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:44.879 under a rock for the last fifteen. 311 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:50.879 Years, okay, elevator pitch. We have been using systems like 312 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.799 the default when we develop software systems seems to still 313 00:16:54.879 --> 00:17:00.200 be to use normalized databases. And basically, when you or 314 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.680 state in a normalized database, what you're basically doing is 315 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:09.200 storing the state of the system right now, and you 316 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.799 lose all of the history that came before it. And 317 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:16.119 with event sourcing, what we actually try to do is 318 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.799 the opposite. We store all of the events that lead 319 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:22.960 up to the current state, which means that if we 320 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.839 replay the events, we can recalculate the state. If we 321 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:31.400 have the state, we cannot recalculate the history because that's gone. Basically, 322 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:35.640 if you switch your philosophy from storing state to storing events, 323 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:39.319 you enable a whole lot of other things in your 324 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:43.240 architectures as well. But the essence of event sourcing is 325 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:46.440 basically that you're going to store events instead of the 326 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.440 projected safe. 327 00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:50.039 You neveric going to update, You're going to add a 328 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:54.160 new record with the changes. Yes, some people have asked 329 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:57.000 this by adding a couple of fields to every table. 330 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.240 You know, update user and update date. You know, insert date, 331 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:02.440 insert users. 332 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:04.000 Like auditing fields and stuff like. 333 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.039 Yeah, like auditing fields, and that's only good for the 334 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:08.119 last change that was made. 335 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:08.720 Yeah. 336 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:15.160 The whole idea for me that makes this interesting is 337 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:19.400 if we look at where database normalization comes from. A 338 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:24.039 lot of that was conceived when the first Squel standards 339 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:29.720 were developed in the nineteen eighties. And what's relevant for 340 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.519 that time is that your average hard drive cost a 341 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:36.799 lot more than the computer that it was attached to, Right, 342 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.839 So normalizing had a couple of benefits. First of all, 343 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:45.079 it made your data consistent and you try to avoid 344 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:51.519 any update conflicts or any data manipulation concurrency issues that 345 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:54.759 you might have. You would also store every bit of 346 00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:58.799 information only once, which conserved. 347 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.920 Disk space back back when that was important. 348 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.480 Right back when that was important. But nowadays on your 349 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.160 cloud build, disk space is not typically the thing that 350 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:15.920 most like CPU cycles and and memory usage and bandwidth 351 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.000 like that's that's all going to be way more expensive 352 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:19.480 than than your disk space. 353 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:20.119 Yeah. 354 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:25.000 But what we have, I think in our industry maybe 355 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:28.480 ingrained in our brains a little bit, is all the 356 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.079 tradeoffs that we've made to normalize our databases, because it 357 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:35.279 comes with a whole bunch of tradeoffs, but we have 358 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:39.240 just learned to work work around, right, all of those tradeoffs. 359 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.680 Sure, So what are those trade offs with normalized relational 360 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:46.039 database that we might have forgotten about? 361 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:50.599 Well, the first thing that comes to mind is you 362 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:55.400 are sacrificing CPU cycles to be able to store your 363 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.720 data in a normalized shape, because whenever you have to 364 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.400 fetch a meaningful amount of data to do work on, 365 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.720 you're often hitting multiple tables, which means that you're doing joints, 366 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:13.359 and joints are expensive. Yeah, and the problem with doing 367 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:17.480 joints in a typical relational database is you also have 368 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.960 no way of easily scaling that compute because it's going 369 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:24.480 to happen in your database engine and you cannot just 370 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.759 like put a cluster of nodes in front of it 371 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:31.039 that are going to do the joints for you. So 372 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.759 that's that's the first thing. You're sacrificing a bunch of 373 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:40.519 compute to make that happen, and you introduce locking problems 374 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:43.640 because whenever you touch your record, you have to make 375 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.960 sure that there's no race conditions and no threading problems, so. 376 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.240 You have to use transactions in case there are problems, 377 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:52.240 and then you roll it back. 378 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:54.440 Yeah, so either you're going to deal with that with 379 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.759 optimistic concurrency or with pessimistic concurrency, but at some point 380 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.279 you are going to deal with some kind of because 381 00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:04.400 concurrency issues that you're going to solve in your database 382 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:08.279 as well, because you're only storing that one bit of state, 383 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:10.359 and everybody that touches that is going to have to 384 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:14.039 touch the same record and update it or deleted or whatever. 385 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:14.640 That we want to do with it. 386 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.200 And we've taken all of that for granted, because if 387 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:22.039 we look at even the modern versions of dot Net. 388 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:27.240 The first stack that they brought to Core included entity framework, 389 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:31.279 and I'm a huge enity framework fan. But part of 390 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.319 why we have or rems is because we try to 391 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:36.839 solve some of the issues that you have with this 392 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.920 way of thinking, because almost never are you in a 393 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.359 complex application are you touching just a single table. You 394 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:49.960 usually need a whole graph of different related tables, a 395 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:54.240 parent entity with some with some related entities that you're 396 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.480 all fetching and then updating and then writing back and 397 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:58.480 all that sort of stuff. And that's why you have 398 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.599 ORMs to make that a lot easier to do in code. 399 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.519 But all of that is still working around the idea 400 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:09.240 that we're only storing the truth at this very moment 401 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:10.720