Speaker 1: Well, all right, here we go, All right, here we go.
Speaker 1: Maybe not. Let's see hello and welcome back to We're
Speaker 1: Not So Different podcast, where I occasionally have to cough
Speaker 1: before I do the intro. My name is Luke. That's
Speaker 1: doctor eleanor you know the deal. We sometimes talk about
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, maybe today talking about medieval beauty standards.
Speaker 1: But before we get there, we got a couple of questions,
Speaker 1: first from Gaffzi, who says, and economies that were only
Speaker 1: partially monetize, what do people give for things like tithes
Speaker 1: and to pay for masses, indulgences, et cetera. Could you
Speaker 1: tie the pig? Could you promise an abby a week's
Speaker 1: labor labor during the harvest to get your great uncle
Speaker 1: Ethelbert out of purgatory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a great question and I love it,
Speaker 2: And yeah, you can tie the pig, You absolutely can,
Speaker 2: and people do. People will oftentimes give livestock or give
Speaker 2: whatever it is there you know they tend to make.
Speaker 2: So that can be both for you know, the clergy,
Speaker 2: but it can also be like the rent you pay.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people pay rent in kind instead of in specie.
Speaker 2: But a big thing that you do tithe is specifically
Speaker 2: bees wax. So if you keep bees, like you're like,
Speaker 2: you're good to go. Because it's like candles, right, Like
Speaker 2: it's it is very much like the drill candle tweet
Speaker 2: and they're just constantly trying to make more candles for
Speaker 2: the church. And so if you like have bees and
Speaker 2: you can give bees wax, that's gonna be like the
Speaker 2: one that's gonna be the one. So like very much
Speaker 2: that that's that's something to do. And and you know, otherwise,
Speaker 2: like you know, you can barter things or like move
Speaker 2: things around, but you know, everyone they're gonna understand that,
Speaker 2: like if you are just some peasant, it's gonna be
Speaker 2: a little bit harder for you to come by loose change.
Speaker 2: So they're not necessarily going to be mad about you
Speaker 2: bringing a pig, but they might then trade your pig
Speaker 2: for money.
Speaker 1: For they're like like a fiend, like a fiend, like
Speaker 1: you got any you got any of that wax? Like man,
Speaker 1: I got a pig. I work on a farm, not
Speaker 1: an ap arist. They're like all right, man, Like the
Speaker 1: blacks guy comes by and he's like you want to
Speaker 1: taste you know it taste time Medieval coke dealer Energy
Speaker 1: there's like a medieval weed dealer. He asked you to
Speaker 1: like he like sits on your couch for too long
Speaker 1: and ask you to read like iron Rand, You're like
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, I don't need wax this bad get out
Speaker 1: of here. That's awesome. Uh. You know, it took a
Speaker 1: long time for the economies of Europe, I mean, for
Speaker 1: the medieval economies outside of of uh, China to be monetized,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I mean I guess they probably just
Speaker 1: handed in about everything they possibly could in order to
Speaker 1: tithe or whatever. I mean. The Bible is pretty uh
Speaker 1: it's pretty much like the tithe in the Bible. Like
Speaker 1: we associate tithing with specifically just being money, but like
Speaker 1: the tithing in the Bible, like they were bringing pigs
Speaker 1: and sheep and threash and you know, sheaves of eat
Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing, you know, like that
Speaker 1: it's like uh, you know, it's it's like a cornucopia thing,
Speaker 1: like you show up, you tie that stuff. It goes
Speaker 1: to the church, and the church is like you know,
Speaker 1: they separate out uh you know, the beer and the
Speaker 1: bees wax and they sell the rest.
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Like its fundamentally, this is an economy about wax for
Speaker 2: but but you know it's you don't just go around
Speaker 2: having it, right, it's amazing. So yeah, just whatever it takes,
Speaker 2: whatever it takes that they can that they can live
Speaker 2: off of essentially, then it's.
Speaker 1: Just one of those things you never ever think of,
Speaker 1: like how much of their time and energy would have
Speaker 1: gone to like making candle, like the amount of wax
Speaker 1: you would need that because basically every light is a candle, Like,
Speaker 1: unless you have like a like a torch of some
Speaker 1: kind or something like that, it's going to be a candle.
Speaker 4: And it's yeah, well yeah, I've never thought like, yeah,
Speaker 4: so like ordinary people they usually don't have wax candles,
Speaker 4: they usually use tallow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the but.
Speaker 2: The church wants to use bees wax, right because it
Speaker 2: smells nice and it burns cleaner, and it's like it's
Speaker 2: like fancy. So it's kind of like part of it's
Speaker 2: like it's kind of like part of the fucking you know,
Speaker 2: incense sort of thing. So yeah, if you come at
Speaker 2: them with some tallow, it's like the equivalent of coming
Speaker 2: up to them with like methadone.
Speaker 3: When they were asking for heroin an get the ship
Speaker 3: out of here.
Speaker 1: You walk up like you walk into a church and
Speaker 1: like smell like the frying beef in here? What is
Speaker 1: going on in the in the you know, the the
Speaker 1: the fuck. The priest walks up and he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know our regular wax guy. Uh, he's he's out,
Speaker 1: he's out with a regular We had we had to go,
Speaker 1: but we had to go to old Bob down at
Speaker 1: down at the slaughterhouse. Yep, there's the tallow and now
Speaker 1: our church smells like delicious Hamburger systems, like fried fried beef.
Speaker 1: It's delicious, Gussie. Thank you very much for the question.
Speaker 1: Next we got one from a colony Keiss, who says,
Speaker 1: a few years ago, I was in troe Gear in Croatia,
Speaker 1: and our tour guide showed us a piece of an
Speaker 1: ancient Greek frieze which nuns had used as a sour
Speaker 1: kraut weight during the Middle Ages, wondering if this was
Speaker 1: typical and if the nuns would have known what they
Speaker 1: had and to what extent, And I mean, yeah, of
Speaker 1: course they knew they had the best damn looking sour
Speaker 1: kraut weight in all of Europe. God damn it.
Speaker 3: Oh I love that I mean, uh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, fundamentally, like probably they probably were, like would have
Speaker 2: some idea about it.
Speaker 3: Like I mean, you got to understand that.
Speaker 2: With nuns were drawing from all walks of society, like
Speaker 2: well fancy walks aside of society.
Speaker 3: It's not going to be like poor people, is it.
Speaker 3: But you know, these are people with.
Speaker 2: Like a range of experiences and a range of ways
Speaker 2: of relating to things. So yeah, probably, Like you know,
Speaker 2: if there's if there's a group of people who are
Speaker 2: going to understand things, it's usually monks and nuns because
Speaker 2: you get more of a breadth of understanding. It's like
Speaker 2: someone in there there'll be like, go get sister Floberta
Speaker 2: and then she'll be like, ah tis a fine sour
Speaker 2: krautwait you know, or some shit like.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, I mean like they probably knew.
Speaker 1: They probably could have been like, yeah, like it's Greek
Speaker 1: or something, you know, some uh some civilization from the
Speaker 1: past of some kind, and they might even have been
Speaker 1: able to tell you Greek and everything, but it wouldn't
Speaker 1: I don't think it would have the same meaning to
Speaker 1: them as it does to us because they didn't have
Speaker 1: the same like uh not veneration, but the same respect
Speaker 1: for artifacts that we do, which you know, that's just
Speaker 1: their society.
Speaker 3: Like that's a really good way putting it. Yeah, that's
Speaker 3: a super i old putting it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure now, I'm absolutely positive there's
Speaker 1: some like monks somewhere or some people who were really
Speaker 1: into like history and doing like proto archaeology type stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm sure those people existed. But for the most part,
Speaker 1: they're go'na be like, yeah, that's cool that Greek freeze
Speaker 1: that which would now be worth like ten million dollars
Speaker 1: to some museum. They were like, yeah, it's our sauerkraut. Wait,
Speaker 1: m we love well, yeah, pickled cabbage.
Speaker 3: And fundamentally, the thing is they just don't care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I mean they're they're like, i mean we
Speaker 2: see this all the time, you know, like with the
Speaker 2: reuse of Greek and Roman objects, So like for all
Speaker 2: the fucking time, you'll have like churches that are rebuilt
Speaker 2: using bits of old Roman things. Like people just pick
Speaker 2: up anything that's useful and reuse it. And I mean
Speaker 2: it's really not even until like the twentieth century really
Speaker 2: that you start getting this idea about you know, kind
Speaker 2: of like the preservation of things.
Speaker 1: Early archaeologists were just going in there fucking strip mine
Speaker 1: in places.
Speaker 2: That oh yeah, Like I mean, like you know, they're
Speaker 2: like they're taking their stealing statues from grease, ripping all
Speaker 2: the paint off them, and then moving them to London.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not about it's about even that. It's
Speaker 2: about like collecting and collecting in this very particularized way.
Speaker 2: So you know, they're not gonna give a fuck about
Speaker 2: a freeze piece. Like I mean, someone probably picked it
Speaker 2: up one time and was like, oh shit, that's cool,
Speaker 2: and then they're like, oh yeah, well, well we'll use
Speaker 2: it as a sour kroud weight because like you know,
Speaker 2: because because it's something that we use all the time, right,
Speaker 2: And this is a pretty thing, right, So like I've
Speaker 2: got like random antique things, you know, like the that
Speaker 2: like I've got like an old flat iron, right that's
Speaker 2: like it's not that old.
Speaker 3: It's probably like from like eighteen ninety or some shit.
Speaker 2: And I use it as a doorstop, you know, because
Speaker 2: it's because it's like I think it's a cool object
Speaker 2: and I need a door stop and it works, right,
Speaker 2: And so it's probably so probably two things are going
Speaker 2: on here. They probably know what it is, because you know,
Speaker 2: that's because they're nuns and that that's their deal. But
Speaker 2: they probably just don't care the same way that we do.
Speaker 2: Like they don't go oh damn like and like frame
Speaker 2: it and you know, and think about it in this
Speaker 2: particular way. They go, oh, that's really cool. Yeah we
Speaker 2: can use it for this. So so yeah, it's it's
Speaker 2: it is one of these things.
Speaker 3: I mean. The exception here is usually books, Like if.
Speaker 2: You have anything written down or if you have any
Speaker 2: kind of book, they're like, oh shit, there's a book.
Speaker 2: And they really they really like books. But even said that,
Speaker 2: having said that, like you know, they'll reuse parchment all
Speaker 2: the time, like if it's if you've got like a
Speaker 2: super common copy of something and they need like the
Speaker 2: blank piece on the other.
Speaker 3: Side, they'll cut it out and reuse it.
Speaker 2: But as a general rule of thumb, like books are
Speaker 2: the one thing they care about.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, Colin, thank you very much for
Speaker 1: the question. Sauer Kraut weight is just so funny. Like specificity,
Speaker 1: it's not just a counterweight, it's not just like a
Speaker 1: like a general measuring thing. Is specifically that is the
Speaker 1: one we use for that's the Greek freeze for Sauer
Speaker 1: kraut over there's the Roman freeze for beer, or you know,
Speaker 1: just like cool man.
Speaker 3: Cool man. Yeah, like for sure, that's awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, if you guys want to ask us questions
Speaker 1: like those, or you want to hear more bonus episodes,
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Speaker 1: suppose if I assume you're listening to this because it
Speaker 1: brings you some level of joy, I uh, if you're not, man,
Speaker 1: I cool, I appreciate we appreciate it.
Speaker 3: But I mean, yeah, I would love that.
Speaker 1: Why, Like, what is there to hate listen to?
Speaker 2: Here?
Speaker 1: Like like I don't yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're really mad, you know what, I
Speaker 3: take it back.
Speaker 1: If you're hate listening, keep doing it. Subspeci Patreon and
Speaker 1: hate listen to that.
Speaker 3: More hate listening. You're You're God's bravest soldier.
Speaker 1: And actually more hate listens the more hate subscriptions, you do.
Speaker 2: I actually really respect that because I think like the
Speaker 2: art of the hater, you know, as you'll remember, you'll
Speaker 2: remember my New Year's resolution last year to be a
Speaker 2: more specific hater, you know, Like, I just think the
Speaker 2: art of the hater is really added to by you
Speaker 2: need to do that deep dive. You got to be listening.
Speaker 2: You've got to be listening hard. So you know, I
Speaker 2: salute every single person hate listening right now. Keep it up,
Speaker 2: great stuff, you know, thank you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, uh. Anyway, onto the main show. So, sometimes
Speaker 1: social media is a youthful finding alternative perspectives on world
Speaker 1: events and politics that we may that we might not
Speaker 1: otherwise see. This is the good side of social media.
Speaker 1: Sometimes social media is a healthscape filled with the worst
Speaker 1: of every type of person who want nothing more than
Speaker 1: to annoy you for no goddamn reason or be reactionary
Speaker 1: pieces of shit. This is the bad side of social media.
Speaker 1: And then sometimes you find posts that make you laugh
Speaker 1: for days and give you fodder for entire podcast episodes. This,
Speaker 1: I would argue, is the greatest good that social media
Speaker 1: has ever brought to us. Sure, it's good that we
Speaker 1: know the truth about world events that our governments try
Speaker 1: to lie to us about. But really, it's just so
Speaker 1: wonderful to see the humorous insanity of the human mind
Speaker 1: on full display for all of us to see. And folks,
Speaker 1: when you know it, we've got some great social media
Speaker 1: to discuss today. Last week, Twitter user A Bree Soulstad
Speaker 1: posted the following Catholic Mary, Greater Sign Protestant Mary, sublimely
Speaker 1: beautiful and immaculately pure, Greater Sign plane looking and just
Speaker 1: a vessel. God is the master Artist. He did not
Speaker 1: make his greatest creature anything but indescribably beautiful. Worship the
Speaker 1: Divine Artist about properly revering his master work. Then she
Speaker 1: attached two images. The first is a very obviously AI
Speaker 1: image of like a hot coquette Mary with the with
Speaker 1: the halo around her, and the second is I guess
Speaker 1: probably a picture of an image of Mary from like
Speaker 1: a movie of some kind, like a biblical movie. I
Speaker 1: guess it doesn't it doesn't look AI like, it doesn't
Speaker 1: show any obvious signs of AI. I don't know who
Speaker 1: it is, but yeah, anyway, I'll post the link, so
Speaker 1: if you know who it is, you can tell me.
Speaker 1: Now you know, I guess she's Protestant Mary. You know,
Speaker 1: so we're already off to a real strong start here.
Speaker 1: We got Catholic and Protestant Mary are apparently two separate people,
Speaker 1: and we are praising Capital d Capital a divine artist
Speaker 1: while using an aiimage to show this hot year. This
Speaker 1: poster goes on to defend her posts and the comments
Speaker 1: by saying that Mary is the most beautiful woman to
Speaker 1: ever exist because she's the most perfect of God's creation,
Speaker 1: quoting random saints expositing on Mary being a baddie and
Speaker 1: saying that ugliness is a consequence of the fall of man. So,
Speaker 1: you know, normal stuff. But our fearless poster was not
Speaker 1: content to let the sleeping dog lie, and, much to
Speaker 1: our delight, decided to clarify her thoughts further via a
Speaker 1: quote tweet the following day. Thankfully, she bought a blue
Speaker 1: check so we get an extended look at her thoughts. Guys,
Speaker 1: that was a poor choice of image. I am sorry,
Speaker 1: frownie emoji. However, nothing I said here is wrong, idolatry,
Speaker 1: godless worship, or theologically inaccurate. And I did not call
Speaker 1: the depiction of Protestant Mary ugly, as many of the claim.
Speaker 1: I clearly said plaine, which is the perfect word to
Speaker 1: describe how a growing number of Protestant denominations erroneously see Mary.
Speaker 1: Here is Saint Thomas Aquinas quote, the grace of sanctification
Speaker 1: not only represented illicit impulses in our lady, but even
Speaker 1: had an effect on others, such that although she was
Speaker 1: physically beautiful, she could not be lusted after by anyone.
Speaker 1: End quote. That is an insane thing to say, because
Speaker 1: she had a husband. You know what, I'll talk about
Speaker 1: it later, anyway, back to it. Here is Saint Bernadette quote,
Speaker 1: she Mary was so beautiful that to see her again
Speaker 1: one would be willing to die. End quote. I can
Speaker 1: go on with quotes all day. Ugliness, aging, wrinkles, sickness,
Speaker 1: de formity, etc. Are all some of the many calls
Speaker 1: consequences of the fall and of sin. None of this
Speaker 1: was supposed to happen to us. We were supposed to
Speaker 1: be in the garden living out perfection and complete union
Speaker 1: with God. If you believe Mary to be immaculately conceived
Speaker 1: and sinless, as I do, she must therefore be beautiful
Speaker 1: both inside and out. She did not experience the consequences
Speaker 1: of the fall and sin like we do. She is painted,
Speaker 1: she is most painted, and she is the most painted
Speaker 1: and sculpted woman in history. For a reason. She has
Speaker 1: showered with songs and poems and litanys and praise. For
Speaker 1: a reason. She is beloved and admired and extolled about
Speaker 1: by all the saints. For a reason, God wrote her
Speaker 1: beauty on human heart. On the human heart. He wants
Speaker 1: you to love her and strive to be like her.
Speaker 1: Beauty is not bad or judgmental or subjective. It is
Speaker 1: one of the three transcendentals of truth, beauty, and goodness
Speaker 1: which draw us into the great mystery of God in
Speaker 1: heaven and creation. Revering the beauty of God's creation, specifically,
Speaker 1: his most credible and beautiful creature, glorifies him. For too long,
Speaker 1: many involved in some modern day Protestant denomination to thrown
Speaker 1: cold water on Mary. They said she is no holier,
Speaker 1: no more special than us, that she was just a vessel,
Speaker 1: that she was another center, that she deserves no praise
Speaker 1: or veneration or attention, and that she is dead and
Speaker 1: decomposing in the ground. None of this is true, and
Speaker 1: none of this leads anyone to model themselves after her
Speaker 1: the quintessential perfect disciple of Christ. In the order of
Speaker 1: all things, there is the triune God, and then there
Speaker 1: is Mary. She is more glorious than even the Seraphim
Speaker 1: and cheriff and Cherubim. I will die on this hill
Speaker 1: for our lady. So yeah, today we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about whatever the fuck that was, and then we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about a way in which medieval people were actually
Speaker 1: very problematic and wrong, and that is they fucked up
Speaker 1: beauty standards. But first, eleanor what the fuck is?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 2: So, like the thing about this bitch, right is that
Speaker 2: she had me in the first half.
Speaker 3: Like, I'm not gonna lie. Like she isn't wrong.
Speaker 2: In terms of what the medieval theological idea of Mary is.
Speaker 3: What she is wrong about is the idea that beauty
Speaker 3: isn't subjective. Okay.
Speaker 2: So these so these are these are these are two
Speaker 2: different things, right, Okay? And she is absolutely right, like
Speaker 2: so for the majority of the medieval period, like, the
Speaker 2: idea of beauty is something that gets expounded upon at length, right,
Speaker 2: And she's also right that beauty is very much conceptualized
Speaker 2: as being a proof of someone's spiritual rectitude because the
Speaker 2: idea here is that God.
Speaker 3: Made the natural world.
Speaker 2: Yes, and the natural world is beautiful because it is
Speaker 2: how He wishes it to be.
Speaker 3: It was created by him. Great, great job.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So so if someone is more spiritually close to God
Speaker 2: or more spiritually aligned with God, they are going to
Speaker 2: necessarily be more beautiful because it's proof of their spiritual
Speaker 2: correctness and their alignment with God. Okay, And she is
Speaker 2: right about a part of the reasoning behind this, and
Speaker 2: that is because before the fall of Man, in the
Speaker 2: Garden of Eden, everyone would just be a baddie, right,
Speaker 2: Everyone would just be like so fucking hot, but you
Speaker 2: wouldn't think they were hot, because there's no idea of sexuality,
Speaker 2: all right, So bor, so let's just bang on there
Speaker 2: right like this is and this is this is Saint
Speaker 2: Augustine at work, to be honest. So Saint Augustine's whole
Speaker 2: thing is that like everything is perfect and pure and
Speaker 2: beautiful in the Garden of Eden. And you know, just
Speaker 2: like we need to understand that how people are thinking
Speaker 2: about the world is that we are ever and always
Speaker 2: moving further and further away from the Garden of Eden,
Speaker 2: and so things are necessarily getting worse because we're getting
Speaker 2: further and further away from our experience and time in
Speaker 2: the presence of God. Right, so you know things like
Speaker 2: people are getting worse, people are getting uglier. So maybe
Speaker 2: that's why Protestant Mary's an uggo. So the idea here
Speaker 2: is that the fall of man, as I've said eight
Speaker 2: million times before, coincides with the introduction of lust into
Speaker 2: the world because they realize that they are naked and
Speaker 2: their disobedience brings lustfulness down on humanity.
Speaker 3: Right. So Mary was baddie, just like Eve was a baddie.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: You can refer to the cover of my book for
Speaker 2: more info. You know, they're pretty much interchangeable. It's just
Speaker 2: one is naked, and basically that all would have been
Speaker 2: fine until the idea of sexiness comes about. So that's
Speaker 2: that's one hundred percent correct. And you see this kind
Speaker 2: of like knock on thing all the time in terms
Speaker 2: of how beautiful women are then treated. So for example,
Speaker 2: we will see, especially in the earlier medieval period, you
Speaker 2: will see examples where women who had been enslaved and
Speaker 2: trafficked right by the vikings. If you're hot enough, you'll
Speaker 2: get married off and become the queen. And the reason
Speaker 2: we know about it is the chroniclers will be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: and she was really fucking hot, so obviously she was
Speaker 2: full of every good grace and she became the queen, right,
Speaker 2: So it's like, being beautiful is ipso facto a reason
Speaker 2: for someone to be a queen because they have all
Speaker 2: of the attendant virtues that come along.
Speaker 3: With beauty.
Speaker 2: So obviously Mary has all those things, right. Obviously, obviously Mary,
Speaker 2: by virtue of being the best lady that the world
Speaker 2: has ever known, has all those virtues. And she's also
Speaker 2: fucking correct about this whole thing about original sin. So
Speaker 2: because she doesn't have she doesn't have original sin, she
Speaker 2: can't have the corruptions of the world, and so therefore she.
Speaker 3: Would be beautiful now as too. For the whole lusting thing,
Speaker 3: I don't know, dude, God came in her.
Speaker 1: I the the loungestine thing here is like like that
Speaker 1: that like she couldn't it was like physically but even
Speaker 1: even had an effect on others such that although she
Speaker 1: was physically beautiful, she could not be lusted after by
Speaker 1: anyone like h.
Speaker 2: But why it's like it's so interesting because it's like,
Speaker 2: why do you need to make that clear? It's so
Speaker 2: funny because it's like, uh, and it's because it's your mommy.
Speaker 1: And it's clearly not true because there are plenty of
Speaker 1: pictures with like Mary of just like the most massive
Speaker 1: jugs with baby Jesus ever, like baby Jesus looking at
Speaker 1: those things like I'm willbe say for weeks, dog weeks.
Speaker 2: Dude, and it's and we you know, we know we
Speaker 2: also know that it's not true because of Protestant testimony, right,
Speaker 2: so you know, we've got that that anonymous Protestant guy
Speaker 2: who's like talking about, yeah, we had to get rid
Speaker 2: of all the statues because basically the saints are all
Speaker 2: dressed up like hussies, and he talks about how he
Speaker 2: would get turned on by seeing statues of Mary because
Speaker 2: Mary's so hot in them, right, so you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: and okay, we're talking about people who are not necessarily
Speaker 2: the divine presence of Mary, but they're around Mary and
Speaker 2: they're they're able to like get hard for a statue
Speaker 2: right now, So so clearly someone is finding this attractive.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like for me.
Speaker 2: I think that what Augustine is doing here is surprise,
Speaker 2: like substituting Mary for his own mommy. Yeah, right, and
Speaker 2: he's gotten you know, augustly, he's got like a traditional
Speaker 2: ash mommy issues, you know, like his mom is is
Speaker 2: a Christian and it's always like.
Speaker 3: Oh see, what are you gonna stop being a fuck
Speaker 3: boy and fuck yourself took out and he's.
Speaker 2: Like, mom, in a minute, Mom, I'm busy being my mom.
Speaker 1: Uh you know.
Speaker 2: So like so there's a lot of that going on,
Speaker 2: and so I think he's just kind of like switched
Speaker 2: Mary in for his own mother. So obviously you're not
Speaker 2: allowed to be horny for your mom, right, So uh
Speaker 2: so that's why this whole other like back end thing
Speaker 2: comes around.
Speaker 3: But people are horny for her.
Speaker 2: Like I don't know what to tell you, Like I
Speaker 2: don't know what to tell you, and and granted you
Speaker 2: could say, oh well yeah, but that's because these are depictions.
Speaker 2: It's not marry herself and it's like, okay, got a dog,
Speaker 2: but like should and the very idea then, in theory,
Speaker 2: put us off being tur gone, right, Like if that's
Speaker 2: truly how her grace works, and if what we are
Speaker 2: saying is that we are using images of Mary in
Speaker 2: order to sharpen up and focus us so that we
Speaker 2: can be in connection to her and pray with her correctly.
Speaker 2: Then it's going to be a problem if she's too hot,
Speaker 2: because people are going to get distracted, and people do
Speaker 2: get distracted.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: Where I disagree with her though, is.
Speaker 2: On like the conception of aging. And she's also incorrect
Speaker 2: on this one when we go and look at medieval art,
Speaker 2: because medieval art absolutely shows her as having aged over time.
Speaker 3: So like Mary, the version with.
Speaker 2: Child is a young baddie, yes, but by the time
Speaker 2: you get to the Pieta, Mary's older. You know, she's
Speaker 2: thirty years over older, and like you know, she's very,
Speaker 2: very sad, and she's like crying and everywhere, and.
Speaker 3: She isn't beautiful.
Speaker 2: And I think that she's wrong here because it doesn't
Speaker 2: just because she doesn't have original sin doesn't mean she's
Speaker 2: in the garden.
Speaker 3: Yeah, those are two different things. Yeah, she wasn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she seems to be arguing that Mary walks around
Speaker 1: in a perpetual like uh, like a pocket dimension garden
Speaker 1: of Eden, where like ever, wherever she goes, she is
Speaker 1: constantly in this state like of not having original sin
Speaker 1: or whatever. And like this also just boggles my mind
Speaker 1: because Mary had other children. Jesus has a brother named James,
Speaker 1: and and absolutely and other and other siblings are attributed
Speaker 1: as well, Like so she and Joseph had to have
Speaker 1: sex at least once, So like did she like milk
Speaker 1: him and do it? Like he had to be horny
Speaker 1: for her at least.
Speaker 2: One exactly exactly because here the thing, right, because here's
Speaker 2: the thing is that it would be possible, because Mary
Speaker 2: doesn't have original sin, for her to have sex without
Speaker 2: lust completely possible because you know, like it's because Augustein
Speaker 2: has already set up the mechanics by which that happens,
Speaker 2: as we've talked about about eight million times, right, But
Speaker 2: Joseph does have original sin.
Speaker 3: Yes, Joseph does have original sin, and so he is
Speaker 3: definitely turned on when they're having sex.
Speaker 2: And and we and we know that there is we
Speaker 2: know that there are siblings, like the siblings occur, you know,
Speaker 2: like the siblings show up in the Bible, and Mary
Speaker 2: is like, Jesus, I really think you should come home now,
Speaker 2: and things like that. With all our children now they
Speaker 2: get ignored a lot. But this is an apocrypha, Like
Speaker 2: we're not we're not even talking about apocrypha.
Speaker 3: This is just a fact of the matter.
Speaker 1: James, the brother of Jesus is a guy like that,
Speaker 1: Like that's his name. He's known to history as that.
Speaker 2: Like, so you're just wrong on that one like that,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm just applying.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know, I'm applying a lot a lot
Speaker 1: of like present day stuff. But is like, if she
Speaker 1: doesn't have original sin, could she even consent? Like, isn't
Speaker 1: the original sin? In my mind is like having the
Speaker 1: mind of a child, Like and I'm not Look, I'm
Speaker 1: not if you believe in God. I am not saying that.
Speaker 1: If you believe in this stuff, That's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: But like, in my mind, the lack of original sin
Speaker 1: is you walking around and being like, huh, this is
Speaker 1: so like you like you're like a four or five
Speaker 1: year old kid. You're like that the sun is shining.
Speaker 1: Yeah okay.
Speaker 3: So have you ever read One hundred Years of Solitude?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: Okay. So what this.
Speaker 2: Reminded me of is, you know, there is the the
Speaker 2: character who ascends bodily into heaven and she is absolutely
Speaker 2: gorgeous and everyone agrees with it, but she also has
Speaker 2: like the mind of a child. Remedios the beauty that's
Speaker 2: the yeah, yeah, so yeah, and she and she's so
Speaker 2: hot and so beautiful, but she's like what duh the
Speaker 2: whole time and then and then she gets decided into heaven, right,
Speaker 2: So like that's essentially what.
Speaker 3: What like this chick is kind of arguing for yeah too.
Speaker 2: And and it can't be right because it's like this
Speaker 2: is this is a wife and mother, right, so she's like.
Speaker 1: The wife and mother. Like if you divorce every single
Speaker 1: thing from this, if you like, this is the thing
Speaker 1: I've never understood about about Catholic Mary is that if
Speaker 1: you divorce her from all of this, then eventually Jesus
Speaker 1: didn't wasn't like born as like a normal man. He
Speaker 1: was born to like a demi god essentially, like or
Speaker 1: like a or like an an interloper between the two
Speaker 1: between humans and God. And it's like you know that
Speaker 1: like to me, like for any of this to matter,
Speaker 1: like she had to go through pain pregnancy, it had
Speaker 1: to be unbearable, and she has to have the same
Speaker 1: trouble like she has to be like when she's like
Speaker 1: when Jesus is like four years old and will not
Speaker 1: shut the fuck up about some stupid question. Mom, Mom, Mom,
Speaker 1: where do you cows come from? Mom? Mom? Mom, Mom,
Speaker 1: And she's like, why don't you just ask your fucking
Speaker 1: dada he's out in the yard. She's like, your real dad,
Speaker 1: you're dumb bitch, Like no, like like but no, but
Speaker 1: you're the same thing. Like, if Jesus didn't feel horniness,
Speaker 1: if Jesus didn't feel like the anger like to well
Speaker 1: up in him and like and want to hurt someone
Speaker 1: for doing bad things to bad people, then that's not
Speaker 1: a god. That's just like or he's not a man.
Speaker 1: That's just a god who came down here and was like, yep,
Speaker 1: pretty unfeeling about all this.
Speaker 3: Yep, well, I mean okay, and you're bang on here, right.
Speaker 2: So, in the first place, we do know that Mary
Speaker 2: probably did suffer, you know, birth pains or all pregnancy pains,
Speaker 2: at least within the medieval imagination or in the ancient imagination,
Speaker 2: because then otherwise, why is there this emergency when she's
Speaker 2: about to give birth to Jesus and she has to
Speaker 2: do it in the barn, right, Because if it was
Speaker 2: no big deal and she didn't experience discomfort, or she
Speaker 2: wasn't in danger, or she wasn't in pain, then she'd
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, She'll like, I'll just do it here
Speaker 2: on the side of the road, right, because it wouldn't
Speaker 2: it would be no thing, right, So she's going one
Speaker 2: step further. Yeah, right, So it's like no one is
Speaker 2: saying that she doesn't experience that, that she you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not arguing for an idea of Mary that doesn't
Speaker 2: experience original sin. Like if I go along with this
Speaker 2: and I accept it, I'm not but you still exist
Speaker 2: in the world outside the garden.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not in the garden.
Speaker 2: In the garden, you wouldn't experience you know, pregnancy issues,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't experience aging, But you're not in the fucking
Speaker 2: garden right now, right, Like that's it's the removal from
Speaker 2: the garden which accomplishes those things. I would argue, now
Speaker 2: original sin brings about death and aging. Yeah, but like
Speaker 2: also it's just kind of like and then as a result,
Speaker 2: you need to get the fuck out of here the
Speaker 2: place where things don't suck, right, and you've got to
Speaker 2: go and be in the place.
Speaker 3: That sucks instead. And so but the point is we
Speaker 3: know she does she experiences the consequences of of childbirth
Speaker 3: being painful, et cetera. So that that can't be right,
Speaker 3: that's just theologically in corect.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you I guess, I guess. My question is
Speaker 1: like how far do you take this? Because so like
Speaker 1: in their imaginations, are all of the good Biblical characters.
Speaker 1: You know, you're Moseses, your God. I'm sorry, you're Moseses,
Speaker 1: your Jesus, your Abraham, Paul, the Apostle, whatever? Are they
Speaker 1: all hot? After Paul? After Saul on the Road of Damascus,
Speaker 1: has the scales fall from his eyes? Does he become
Speaker 1: more attractive? Like like, yes, what is the cutoff here?
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't because they they have to know
Speaker 1: that there are plenty of very holy people who have
Speaker 1: like leprosy, like you know that, like a guy with
Speaker 1: leprosy or somebody who lost an arm in an accident
Speaker 1: or something, you know, And it's just like I just
Speaker 1: don't understand where the where the cutoff is? You know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that.
Speaker 2: This is a really interesting point, Luke, because it's like
Speaker 2: if so, for example, one of the things that we
Speaker 2: tend to see, very specifically with female saints and very
Speaker 2: specifically in the medieval period is they're they're all.
Speaker 3: Baddies, Yeah, like all of them, like to the.
Speaker 2: Point that they are completely interchangeable, and you need to
Speaker 2: make sure that they have their little symbols with them
Speaker 2: when you paint them, because you're not gonna be able
Speaker 2: to tell the difference between Saint Agnes and Saint Catharine
Speaker 2: and Saint Barbara unless they've got little lamb and the
Speaker 2: little wheel and a little tower, because it's like, well,
Speaker 2: they're all hot and that means one thing. So you
Speaker 2: depict them in exactly the same way. So you have
Speaker 2: to have like the little the little cheap coade. And
Speaker 2: this isn't true of the male saints, like I mean,
Speaker 2: they've got like more lore true. But it's like you
Speaker 2: instantly know who John the Baptist is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's carrying his head around on him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right, like because he's dressed in like weird shit,
Speaker 2: like because he got dreadlocks, you know, like all this stuff.
Speaker 2: But you can bring me, Oh go ahead, sorry, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, but but it is it is a question, right,
Speaker 2: It's like, so do you then like experience some do
Speaker 2: you do you like get a glow up and when
Speaker 2: you become more Christian? And I mean that's actually a
Speaker 2: theological question that I would love to ask Augusty, like
Speaker 2: you do you become more attractive or was that possibility
Speaker 2: always within you?
Speaker 3: So something is simply unlocked and you were already.
Speaker 2: Hot, right Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I obviously you can't like reasoning out
Speaker 1: like a whole thing with this is it's like kind
Speaker 1: of silly because you know, a lot of this stuff
Speaker 1: doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. But like
Speaker 1: it's it's like, you know, they knew of people who
Speaker 1: were poor and wretched, yet who were loved by God.
Speaker 1: Do you know we've talked about the the leper Lazarus
Speaker 1: and the Bible. You know, he died, he was afflicted
Speaker 1: by all these these illnesses. He died and immediately went
Speaker 1: to the bosom of Abraham. And uh, it's you know,
Speaker 1: like where does it? It's just it does like there's
Speaker 1: such a big hole in it for me that I'm
Speaker 1: just like where, like where does this end? Like because
Speaker 1: like if somebody's born and they're just kind of homely
Speaker 1: looking but they're the most like holy person ever, like
Speaker 1: and you see their works and acts, do you think
Speaker 1: that they're still closet center and heretic because they are
Speaker 1: mid or whatever?
Speaker 2: I mean, Literally, this is this is a debate, right,
Speaker 2: And this is certainly a debate that that we see
Speaker 2: and you see this kind of happen all the time
Speaker 2: when we are very specifically talking about are you going
Speaker 2: to try to make yourself.
Speaker 3: Meet the beauty standard or not?
Speaker 2: Right, So, you know, it was very interesting to me
Speaker 2: when when she says in that tweets like oh, we
Speaker 2: should all be striving for X y Z, and it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: you mean like striving for beauty, Because then there's also
Speaker 2: this this big debate where it's like, well, if you're
Speaker 2: born mid, you shouldn't be attempting to become beautiful because
Speaker 2: that's artifice and it's essentially lying. So like makeup is lying,
Speaker 2: Plucking your eyebrows is lying, Plucking your.
Speaker 3: Hair, your your your brow line is lying.
Speaker 2: Right, So all of those things are actually forms of
Speaker 2: untruth and as a result, you would be being worse
Speaker 2: if you attempt to do these things and live up
Speaker 2: to the beauty standard. Right. So yeah, and then there
Speaker 2: is just kind of this idea that like a chick
Speaker 2: who's mid, well she's not she's not really got what
Speaker 2: it takes to be truly holy.
Speaker 3: Now, now a chick who's mid who lives with.
Speaker 2: It is better spiritually than a chick who's meeting the
Speaker 2: beauty standard but faking it though, So it's kind of
Speaker 2: like and there's like a lot of making fun of
Speaker 2: chicks who attempt to meet the beauty standard, Like we
Speaker 2: see this in we see this in Chaucer, you know,
Speaker 2: like one of the the Alison in the Miller's Tail,
Speaker 2: they make fun of her because she plucks her eyebrows
Speaker 2: and you shouldn't be plucking your eyebrows. Your eyebrows should
Speaker 2: naturally be like a high arch and black, and you
Speaker 2: shouldn't be doing anything about that. So it's like it's
Speaker 2: like a way of making fun of a woman who
Speaker 2: does that. You know, there there are literal statutes on
Speaker 2: the books where it's like if you find out a
Speaker 2: sex worker was wearing makeup, you can sue her and
Speaker 2: she has to give you money back because it's false advertising.
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, and like that's not that's not about sin
Speaker 2: per se, because like obviously were we already you know,
Speaker 2: like we're already in that.
Speaker 3: But it's like it's a sin on a sin, right.
Speaker 1: It's so it takes me, it takes me in my
Speaker 1: mind back to us talking about the side wound of
Speaker 1: Christ and nuns who would specifically have you know, uh,
Speaker 1: wet dreams about Jesus or actively masturbate them whatever they
Speaker 1: you know, whatever, whatever, whatever, I'm not judging it. Good
Speaker 1: for you, Like that's the only half naked guy you see.
Speaker 1: Knock yourself out, lady. Did this apply to Jesus as well?
Speaker 3: Like was he because yeah, yeah, yeah, Jesus is a hotty.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, that's what I thought.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, So like, oh yeah, you're bang on.
Speaker 1: Jesus fucking ripped.
Speaker 3: He's ripped this ship.
Speaker 2: You know, like he's always got like you know, he's
Speaker 2: he's always kind of like he's giving, right, he's.
Speaker 1: Got he's got the like he's got the chad jawline, you.
Speaker 2: Know, like he's he's always living up to the masculine
Speaker 2: aesthetic for beauty. Certainly, you know, like there's a lot
Speaker 2: less I mean, ironically, it's like, you know, the Protestant Jesus,
Speaker 2: who's usually like the really white Jesus. There's a there's
Speaker 2: a bit more of like at least kind of like
Speaker 2: usually making him have brown hair, you know, uh, a
Speaker 2: kind of a kind of a deal.
Speaker 3: But you.
Speaker 2: Do see that he's kind of like living up to
Speaker 2: whatever it is we we expect to see from him.
Speaker 3: But this kind of a lot of.
Speaker 2: The time doesn't apply to the male saints in the
Speaker 2: same way. So it's like it really depends on who
Speaker 2: you are. But you know, like the Bishop Saints, dude,
Speaker 2: no one gives us ship, like you know, the Bishop Saints.
Speaker 3: It's like that that's just some bishop, right, Like I mean, actually,
Speaker 3: like some of them, I guess that, Like Saint Francis
Speaker 3: is a baddie.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Seen, he's kind of like he kind of you know,
Speaker 1: he's wizened. He kind of you know, and he's got
Speaker 1: the birds around. You know, he's got the birds, the birds.
Speaker 2: One can go either, right, homie, Like sometimes he's hot.
Speaker 2: Sometimes he's hot, you know, and it's like he's got
Speaker 2: the he's got the taunture and stuff that's supposed to
Speaker 2: put you off.
Speaker 3: But it's like he's still You're.
Speaker 1: Like, you're like, I can do I don't have to
Speaker 1: look at that ship while I'm like that put your
Speaker 1: hood up in your head back. I don't give it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like I'm you know, like can I
Speaker 1: can I tolerated it with him going down on me,
Speaker 1: I guess to find out.
Speaker 3: We're going to find out up Like.
Speaker 1: Now, I'm just imagining like some excavation finds like a
Speaker 1: you know, a thirteenth century uh you know icon of
Speaker 1: Francis of a CC and he just like, uh, his
Speaker 1: like robe is ripped down the middle and it's like
Speaker 1: hanging down. He's got cum gutters and he's just like
Speaker 1: absolutely you know, like somehow they like included like sweat
Speaker 1: and like steam pouring off his body in the icon.
Speaker 1: You like, what the fuck is this is literal pornography,
Speaker 1: Like there's no question, Like you guys were just like
Speaker 1: he's got like the gray sweatpants like a hog, like Jesus,
Speaker 1: Francis my guy.
Speaker 3: Oh whoa no, okay, but but this is my god.
Speaker 2: I do think that usually for the Saints that have
Speaker 2: had some kind of turn, like part of their story
Speaker 2: is that they were living a life of debauchery and
Speaker 2: they've turned. They're usually hot to begin with, and they're
Speaker 2: and they're like kind of using their they're using their
Speaker 2: hotness for misbegotten reasons. So for example, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: Francis was a fuck boy, Like he was a party boy.
Speaker 3: That's what he was doing.
Speaker 2: And then you know, one day he wakes up and
Speaker 2: realizes that he needs to like stop fucking batties and
Speaker 2: like and.
Speaker 3: Think about God.
Speaker 2: And this is also like a really similar thing that
Speaker 2: we see, uh from the so called prostitute saints, right,
Speaker 2: you know, their term, not mine. So Mary of Egypt
Speaker 2: is a very famous sex worker and she's absolute haughty,
Speaker 2: like so so beautiful and is incredibly wealthy as a
Speaker 2: result of being so hot. And so the idea here
Speaker 2: is that, like I think that the spiritual goodness lives
Speaker 2: within them as and is being misappropriated, so it can
Speaker 2: always kind of be turned right. So it's a property
Speaker 2: that they are.
Speaker 3: Misapplying, and it needs it needs.
Speaker 2: To be re reoriented in the correct direction. And I mean,
Speaker 2: certainly we will always see if you are, for example,
Speaker 2: one of the royal woman saints, they're always going to
Speaker 2: go on about how you're hot, you know, but they
Speaker 2: kind of have to because like you're a princess. Isn't
Speaker 2: a saint, right, And they'll be like, oh, and she
Speaker 2: was beautiful and she could have been this like successful queen,
Speaker 2: but she.
Speaker 1: Is in Yeah, we've i mean we've talked about it before,
Speaker 1: but I do really appreciate it when, like, you know,
Speaker 1: when you can tell through the writing and somebody was
Speaker 1: actually like just broadly considered one of the hottest people alive,
Speaker 1: like you know, and because they're like, oh the queen
Speaker 1: was a lovely woman, blah blah blah, and then they
Speaker 1: start talking about am Bolin and they're like, dog, those hips,
Speaker 1: oh eleanor Aquitaine, my god, Like you know, you're just like, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, you're just like what.
Speaker 2: The yeah, you can you expand on that?
Speaker 3: No, dog, Like she's so wondering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean I'm not and I'm sure they
Speaker 1: were beautiful obviously not saying anything like that, but like
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you know, like you know, like a
Speaker 1: London five was a lot lower than what a London
Speaker 1: five is now, and you know, and so like.
Speaker 2: Well, so this brings me, This brings me on to
Speaker 2: like my next point, which is that you know, her
Speaker 2: whole being like, well, beauty, beauty isn't subjective. Absolutely fucking
Speaker 2: is subjective thing.
Speaker 1: In the world. The only, maybe the only thing more
Speaker 1: subjective than beauty is taste in food and taste in music.
Speaker 1: Like there's there's nothing more subjective.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but like, look at the original, like look
Speaker 2: at the medieval images of Mary that you're waxing rhapsodic
Speaker 2: about right now, and you're telling me you think that's hot.
Speaker 2: You're you're telling me that you're like, hell yeah, bitch,
Speaker 2: I want to see forehead.
Speaker 3: I want I want.
Speaker 2: A pale chick with a face like an egg, who
Speaker 2: looks like she's pregnant, who's got tiny little tits at
Speaker 2: her armpits, huge dump truck ass.
Speaker 3: That's what's hot to me. Like, no, no, it's not.
Speaker 2: No, it fucking isn't, because like your your tastes have
Speaker 2: been subverted and changed, like along with our culture, and
Speaker 2: we do not consider what you know, Like, no one
Speaker 2: is like going for the plucked forehead look anymore.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like leave it at that.
Speaker 1: Nobody wants a woman who looks like well, that's not true.
Speaker 1: There might be, but most people don't want a woman
Speaker 1: who looks like Walton Goggins, where like that air begins
Speaker 1: like behind the crown of the head. He's very hot.
Speaker 1: That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that's
Speaker 1: not the beauty standard for women. Ninety nine percent of
Speaker 1: men now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and and it absolutely was in the medieval period.
Speaker 2: And you know it's you know to the point where
Speaker 2: you know, whatever, I'm like posting pictures of medieval batties,
Speaker 2: people are like, why is she pregnant?
Speaker 3: And I'm like, she's not.
Speaker 1: Dog they wanted a little budge.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just they just like that, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's like and it's like this is the thing
Speaker 1: like that people do not understand, like when people have
Speaker 1: all these stupid arguments about like, uh, it's so so hot,
Speaker 1: like oh, guys are like I'm not fucking anything below
Speaker 1: and nine, but women are like, oh fuck uh Steve
Speaker 1: Bussimy's uh deformed twins. Sorry Steve, Steve b Simmy's twin
Speaker 1: brother who was kept in an attic and fed fish
Speaker 1: heads all his life. Uh, he's the bat. It's like okay,
Speaker 1: like sure, Like it's it's just subjective, like people value
Speaker 1: things more like if you got a bunch of money,
Speaker 1: but your ugliest shit, that's gonna be hot to someone
Speaker 1: because somebody values like personal like uh, economic stability more
Speaker 1: than they value like a you know, a big dick
Speaker 1: or what it like, you know, and like some women
Speaker 1: are like big Dick's way too much for me, Like
Speaker 1: that's that's just a thing, you know, And so like
Speaker 1: you you get the varied stuff and then it's just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: the medieval Mary is like, that's not what you think
Speaker 1: a woman like should look like now. And it's very
Speaker 1: clear when you do the AI image and she looks
Speaker 1: like I don't even know how to describe it, like
Speaker 1: the like she's like looking off and she's like, oh
Speaker 1: so like the like the traad wife, aesthetic hot hottie
Speaker 1: with brown hair and like a veil kind of like
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, what is like.
Speaker 3: Like you can't you can't, you know.
Speaker 1: And the reason you didn't post a fourteenth century image
Speaker 1: of Mary to show this is because they're not hot.
Speaker 1: That's not they're not people now consider hot. They might
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, it's still you know, i'd still get down.
Speaker 1: Whether that's not that's that's a that is a different,
Speaker 1: that's different. Whether it is subjectively like eight to ten
Speaker 1: level hot.
Speaker 3: On the complete les completelys. Yeah. And I just think
Speaker 3: that you two things can be true, right.
Speaker 2: It is true that there have been these arguments that
Speaker 2: Mary was hot, and the other thing can be true,
Speaker 2: which is that you probably wouldn't find her attractive.
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure that that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that millions of people throughout history, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: more than many millions of people have found Mary to
Speaker 1: be hot because this is the conception that people had
Speaker 1: of beauty standards, now what they actually thought she looked
Speaker 1: like in their heads, and probably completely different for all people.
Speaker 2: Of course, there's an argument to be made here that, like,
Speaker 2: you simply create the idea of Mary that you know
Speaker 2: you want to see in the world, so you make
Speaker 2: Mary as whatever it is that you think is hot.
Speaker 2: But like that and the historical Mary are going to
Speaker 2: be two completely different things, because she would have been,
Speaker 2: in theory meeting the beauty standard of Palestine in the
Speaker 2: year zero common area, right, and it's and it's simply
Speaker 2: not going to be the same thing as our beauty
Speaker 2: standard now, and you know it's it would be one
Speaker 2: thing if you were saying, yeah, look, and what I'm
Speaker 2: saying saying is that, like you know, this is this
Speaker 2: is an artist, this is an artistic motif and we
Speaker 2: just need to go with it.
Speaker 3: And these are the things that I find useful about it.
Speaker 2: That would be fine, but she's acting as though there's
Speaker 2: kind of an a priori hotness that you can link
Speaker 2: to spirituality and that that should be shown in art,
Speaker 2: and it's not and you can't.
Speaker 3: So I thank her.
Speaker 2: I wanted to say say I thank her for this
Speaker 2: theological puzzle.
Speaker 3: It was actually kind of fun for me because.
Speaker 2: I was like, to an extent, this is an actual
Speaker 2: medieval idea on display. And I'm always stoked when there
Speaker 2: are people who have medieval thoughts in their head run
Speaker 2: in their mouth online but fundamentally like it's like you're
Speaker 2: but wrong in the back half, right, like and and
Speaker 2: and I and I think that's beautiful, right. I was
Speaker 2: genuinely thinking about this for ages. So I was like,
Speaker 2: thank you for agreeing with me to these people.
Speaker 1: These like some of the stuff is just like it's
Speaker 1: is delightful. It was like I was talking about I
Speaker 1: don't remember what episode it was talking about, like the
Speaker 1: Marcianist guy who is like, we should get rid of
Speaker 1: the Old Testament. That's just you know, lying Jew propaganda
Speaker 1: or something like that, and and it's like that's not good,
Speaker 1: and this like beauty standard stuff is not good. But
Speaker 1: like on some level, I do kind I am kind
Speaker 1: of happy that people like this still exist who are like, no,
Speaker 1: this is what it says. I'm taking it to its
Speaker 1: logical extent. You know. I'm just I'm maximalist on like
Speaker 1: Mary being hot or whatever, and you know that in
Speaker 1: order to get there, you have to be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: beauty is objective. There is a universal human standard for
Speaker 1: what is hot, and this is what it is. And
Speaker 1: it's just like no. But I think the other thing
Speaker 1: that we didn't we didn't get too much here that
Speaker 1: I that I really loved was that she basically acts
Speaker 1: like Protestant Mary and Catholic Mary are two different human beings.
Speaker 1: Like until fifteen seventeen, there was only one virgin Mary,
Speaker 1: and then in fifteen seventeen, when there was when Protestantism
Speaker 1: came about, all of a sudden, a second mid Mary
Speaker 1: showed up next to like hot Mary in like the
Speaker 1: historical record like just just appeared there, like like a
Speaker 1: time traveler had written something in the past or whatever.
Speaker 2: And I mean, like it is very funny because she
Speaker 2: could say like the Protestant Mary motif, like if she
Speaker 2: just like threw motif, which just fine, Yeah, that would.
Speaker 1: Be fun She's an afterthought of Protestantism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you know it is quite funny because
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, they had to make her less sexy
Speaker 2: because everyone was getting too horny. Like I mean that's
Speaker 2: like literally what happened. Like everyone was too hard for
Speaker 2: Mary and they were like, oh no, like.
Speaker 3: So she get away this.
Speaker 2: You know, there the would be there'd be a better
Speaker 2: and more fun argument to make here. I think about
Speaker 2: how well Catholics are just like more pure minded and
Speaker 2: they can handle batty Mary.
Speaker 3: Protestants are filthy.
Speaker 1: I do not know that I would make that argument
Speaker 1: given everything we know at church, but you knocked yourself out.
Speaker 3: I just think it would be a funnier way of
Speaker 3: doing I just I just think that, like if I
Speaker 3: was gonna do it, if I.
Speaker 2: Was doing it, I would just go in all the
Speaker 2: way and I'd be like, damn, well, if you're getting
Speaker 2: turned on by Mary, like there's something wrong with you,
Speaker 2: like we're we're we're all over here, just like appreciating
Speaker 2: imaginary Mommy and how beautiful she is. No, no one's
Speaker 2: horny over on the Catholic side, you know.
Speaker 1: And then the Protestants, you know, they can be like,
Speaker 1: oh we're gonna out woke them. Then oh yeah, we
Speaker 1: love our Mary so much. She doesn't even look different.
Speaker 1: She's just a normal person in the Catholics. Like, god,
Speaker 1: damn it, we can't out woke thought something else? Something else? Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: she was a single mother. No damn, that one doesn't work.
Speaker 3: But it's just so funny too, because like I just
Speaker 3: really don't think.
Speaker 2: I mean, I know all these people hate the Pope,
Speaker 2: but I don't think that Francis is like hanging out
Speaker 2: at the moment like being like, damn, like we really
Speaker 2: got to consider whether or not Mary, Like what like
Speaker 2: would I would smash Mary?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Like I'm imagining like running in like get like getting
Speaker 1: on a plane to Rome, and they're like, Pope, Francis
Speaker 1: condition has deteriorated. He has at most two days left
Speaker 1: to live, like getting on like flying to Rome somehow
Speaker 1: getting past all the security and everything, Like, father, I
Speaker 1: have one question before you go? Did you ever jerk
Speaker 1: off to marry? Like? And he like crosses himself. He's like,
Speaker 1: of course, my son, we all do. And I'm like, yes,
Speaker 1: I knew it, I knew it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what if what if I make a wish? Child's
Speaker 3: uh last way just to beat it to Mary.
Speaker 1: Then well then Pope, and he's like, i'd still be
Speaker 1: that's not even of course I would beat it to
Speaker 1: marry then I already said I would. Anyway, what are
Speaker 1: you talking like? Y? No, this is great, Like I do.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite parts of the show is when
Speaker 1: we just get to do something like this and use
Speaker 1: it for like full uh, like to to talk about
Speaker 1: something with the Middle Ages. It'd be like, look, you know,
Speaker 1: we we love the Middle Ages, but sometimes eh, let's
Speaker 1: h I don't know about all I don't know about
Speaker 1: all this, all this, uh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all this is like, look, I'm obsessed with these guys.
Speaker 2: They're my favorite little guys. I'm not saying that they
Speaker 2: aren't fucking weird us.
Speaker 1: No, we've opened up here, like I need to like,
Speaker 1: if if this is how you believe, that's fine, But
Speaker 1: every depiction I need Like a leper who is a
Speaker 1: sinner and he was always a sinner and everything, but
Speaker 1: then he turns to God later on in life. Maybe
Speaker 1: he's still a leper, but they can't change that. But
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, he's like he's looking good.
Speaker 1: You know, he's just like damn that that is one
Speaker 1: sexy leopard like I need eat like you know, I
Speaker 1: need consistency here.
Speaker 3: That's yeah. Well lepers are lust of course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well we're glad. We hope you enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Le beauty standards, folks, they are something else, they really are.
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, we'll be back on Friday. If you're
Speaker 1: a patron, We're going to uh cover u a couple
Speaker 1: of topics on that Patriots of vastis about that don't
Speaker 1: really fit into full a full episode, but yeah, we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about uh the gay ship that goes
Speaker 1: on in monasteries, which is a quote from the question. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about uh ship. I forgot the
Speaker 1: other ones, but yeah, that is one of them. I
Speaker 1: can't remember why I've forgotten the other ones now because
Speaker 1: I'm a moron.
Speaker 3: I'm going to be right reading a lot of quotes
Speaker 3: about gay shit, monastery.
Speaker 1: Patrons, the donation of Constantine, and corpse roades. So yeah,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about all those and go through them,
Speaker 1: and that'll be out on Friday, and then later in
Speaker 1: the month we will of course have our third episode
Speaker 1: on the Cameron, so yeah, check that out on Patreon.
Speaker 1: But that's gonna do it for us today. Not sure
Speaker 1: what we'll do next time. Maybe a maybe answer some questions,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe something else. We'll see eleanor.
Speaker 3: We're going to figure it out.
Speaker 1: We'll figure it out. What's going on with you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, mate, I'm just like mostly hanging out on
Speaker 2: the socials.
Speaker 3: You see your girl at going Medieval.
Speaker 2: It's short week here in the United Kingdom, so don't
Speaker 2: know how much I'm gonna get to. I need to
Speaker 2: do some writing, but I've just been dicking around. If
Speaker 2: I'm being honest with you, I think your girl burnt
Speaker 2: herself out again.
Speaker 3: So I'll try to get.
Speaker 2: Something written by the end of the month, I promise.
Speaker 2: But in the meantime, yeah, just like, come watch me
Speaker 2: dicking around.
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, you know me always dicking around. Luke
Speaker 1: is amazing. On the socials. You can find my old show,
Speaker 1: People's Sister of the Old Republic if you want to
Speaker 1: hear me yap about Star Wars. But that is going
Speaker 1: to do it for us today. Thank you all very
Speaker 1: much for listening, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 3: Bye.