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<v Speaker 1>Seven oh six at fifty five kre CD talk station.

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<v Speaker 1>By the time I was wishing ever to a happy

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<v Speaker 1>Wednesday and welcoming back to the fifty five CARCE Morning

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<v Speaker 1>Show from the Buckeye Institute, which you can find online at

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<v Speaker 1>Buckeyeinstitute dot org. I found an eighty nine it to

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<v Speaker 1>independent research and educational institution whose mission is to advance

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<v Speaker 1>free market public policy in Ohio. Greg Lawston, it's always

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<v Speaker 1>great having you on the fifty five KRC Morning Show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks a lot for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>I love the pleasure, I love the topic man, and

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<v Speaker 1>I laugh every time the topic comes up because it's

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<v Speaker 1>property taxes and everyone's fed up with how high they

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<v Speaker 1>are twenty thirty percent increases destined to increase even more.

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<v Speaker 1>We got seniors in their homes, fully paid off and

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<v Speaker 1>living on a fixed income, can't afford they hit. There's

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<v Speaker 1>problems and complications and anger and frustration. And now we

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<v Speaker 1>have a citizen led constitutional amendment effort to completely abolish

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<v Speaker 1>property taxes. And that's always what makes me chuckle, because

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<v Speaker 1>what the hell are they going to do about funding

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<v Speaker 1>literally everything that's funded through property taxes? How can you

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<v Speaker 1>rejigger the system to cover the costs the police, fire levies, parks,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole litany of things that are funded through property taxes.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to boil it down to calling it a

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie Foxtrott situation. Greg, you've looked into this, what's your

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<v Speaker 1>take on it?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's one of the biggest issues that

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<v Speaker 2>the stay in Ohio has maybe ever faced in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of how Ohio government's literally organized. I certainly understand the frustration.

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<v Speaker 2>I've talked to quite a few of the folks actually

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<v Speaker 2>that are involved in kicking off this whole ballot campaign

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<v Speaker 2>to abolish property taxes, and they have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>very legitimate beefs out there with how things are operating.

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<v Speaker 2>You said it yourself. You know, at the seniors who

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<v Speaker 2>are worried about losing their homes after paying off the

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<v Speaker 2>mortgage maybe decades ago and now because of ever escalating

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<v Speaker 2>costs there on the property tax that they can't afford it.

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<v Speaker 2>So the anger is real, it's boiling over. This is

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<v Speaker 2>sort of a tech No, we're not going to take

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<v Speaker 2>it anymore, and we're going to do something about it.

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<v Speaker 2>But the problem with that solution is that it really

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't solve all the problems because if you get rid

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<v Speaker 2>of the property tax, you still have all these services.

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<v Speaker 2>You've still got you know, a ton of the education

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<v Speaker 2>costs at the local level, and almost all of your

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<v Speaker 2>public safety costs that leaves, fire and everything else it's

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<v Speaker 2>paid through property taxes, not to mention all the other

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<v Speaker 2>kind of things that folks like, from parks and stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like that, to even just doing the small the local

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<v Speaker 2>roads and fixing local roads and local potholes and doing

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<v Speaker 2>trash cans. So it's a massive issue. It's going to

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<v Speaker 2>blow if that thing goes through, it goes to the

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<v Speaker 2>ballot and ultimately where to pass maybe a twenty billion

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<v Speaker 2>dollar hole across the whole state. Actually probably been a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit more than that. So we've got to do

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<v Speaker 2>it off water reform, I think, before any of this happens,

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<v Speaker 2>so that taxpayers can get some relief, get released now,

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<v Speaker 2>and get relief in the long term, so that we

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<v Speaker 2>don't have to run this frankly, pretty radical experiment.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, and it is a radical experiment I'll acknowledge, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think born of frustration, because I would argue our

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<v Speaker 1>elected officials and Columbus haven't lifted a finger to try

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<v Speaker 1>to address the problem, at least that's what it appears

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<v Speaker 1>from the outside. How come our property taxes one I'm

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<v Speaker 1>thirty percent? Are they doing anything to address this? Shouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>there be a cap on the percentage they can increase

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<v Speaker 1>our taxes. Something needs to be done. It's almost as

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<v Speaker 1>if this radical effort was done out of frustration in

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<v Speaker 1>order to light a fire under the bottoms of our

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<v Speaker 1>elected officials to get on the thing and get on

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<v Speaker 1>it right away. Do you feel that way. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you guys are located right across the street from the

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<v Speaker 1>State House, and you've been interacting with our politicians and

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<v Speaker 1>getting a response from them on what they plan on doing.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh. Absolutely, and you're right. This was born of frustration,

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<v Speaker 2>completely legitimate frustration, understandable frustration. I think that it has

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<v Speaker 2>lit a fire. There's a whole bunch of legislation out there,

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<v Speaker 2>separate bills. In fact, I was actually at to stay

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<v Speaker 2>down so after one o'clock in the morning today because

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<v Speaker 2>they were putting the finishing touches on the state budget

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<v Speaker 2>and the conference committee that was reconciling differences between the House,

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<v Speaker 2>no House Senate. So they're actually going to put the

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<v Speaker 2>budget on the floor and both chambers, I think today

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<v Speaker 2>to send it to the governor. And there are some

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<v Speaker 2>things that they have put into that that I think

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<v Speaker 2>are good property tax reforms that are going to be helpful.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think they are enough. I don't think they're

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<v Speaker 2>going to solve this problem. And in some way some

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<v Speaker 2>of the stuff they've done and stuff that's that's necessary,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's a little bit more long term. It will

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<v Speaker 2>help in the long rund, but it isn't necessarily going

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<v Speaker 2>to fix the spikes that have hit people so hard recently.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's some more work that absolutely has to be done.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking all the time. There's a State rep of

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<v Speaker 2>Ashtribuba County former County Autogra actually up there, Dave Thomas,

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<v Speaker 2>who's been doing an awful lot of work in this

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<v Speaker 2>space to try to fix a lot of problems. Represented

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<v Speaker 2>to actually out of Matthews from down near Neck of

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<v Speaker 2>the Woods and done some bills and things like that

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<v Speaker 2>to try to help out. So we're constantly talking to them.

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<v Speaker 2>I was testifying last week in the Ohio House a

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<v Speaker 2>major committee on a big bill that had a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of moving pieces, very complicated, but that would have done

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<v Speaker 2>quite a bit unfortunately because of how complicated it is.

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<v Speaker 2>I can tell you there's a line of local government

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<v Speaker 2>organizations out the door opposing all these reforms going and

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<v Speaker 2>buying to the legislators because they don't want to change things.

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<v Speaker 2>And some maybe you can't change, but a lot you can't,

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of folks don't want to change the

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<v Speaker 2>status quo. So you've got this interesting vice really on

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<v Speaker 2>legislative You've got this incredible anger in the grassroots that again,

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<v Speaker 2>I get it, you're kicking people out of their homes.

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<v Speaker 2>People aren't going to sit down and just say that's okay.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not there's a moral issue here. Uh. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>people are wondering if they even own their own homes

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<v Speaker 2>you can lose it over the taxis.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's the point that's not lost on my listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>I hear that.

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<v Speaker 1>All the time, nobody really truly owns something that they

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<v Speaker 1>think they own because of this very issue. And it

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<v Speaker 1>is really in a world that you know, we have

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<v Speaker 1>private property ownership here in this country, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's one of those rights that we dearly embrace and

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<v Speaker 1>love and appreciate. But if the reality is that the

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<v Speaker 1>state's going to force you to sell your home because

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<v Speaker 1>you can't pay the tax bill, then you really don't

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<v Speaker 1>own anything. And adding insult interest you meant to mention

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<v Speaker 1>the budget. I can't allow that comment to go without

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<v Speaker 1>pointing out adding insults injury. Giving six hundred million dollars

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<v Speaker 1>of the Ohio taxpayer money to the Cleveland Browns, I

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<v Speaker 1>think is a slap in the face to the Ohio

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<v Speaker 1>taxpayer who can barely afford to stay in their home.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I deal with this as a suggestion, some suggests,

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<v Speaker 1>and even I said it out loud. Get rid of

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<v Speaker 1>this whole property tax thing and just increase the state

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<v Speaker 1>tax on purchases. That way, everyone is responsible for sharing

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<v Speaker 1>in the burden of any service. But that forces the

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<v Speaker 1>money to go to Columbus and then be redistributed to

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<v Speaker 1>the various jurisdiction. And you point out in your article

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<v Speaker 1>about this thing that there are four thousand local taxing authorities.

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<v Speaker 1>They're going to be scrapping over that money.

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<v Speaker 2>And they're going to be arguing.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, some police departments they pay their officers more.

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<v Speaker 1>They choose to do that. Others don't have the money,

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<v Speaker 1>they don't play the police as much. How do you

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<v Speaker 1>allocate the pile of money. If you went in a

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<v Speaker 1>different direction, there's a multitude of problems with that.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it really would be. And I think actually this

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<v Speaker 2>is one of a lot of downsides too to getting

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<v Speaker 2>rid of property taxes. I mean, because again all the

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<v Speaker 2>services is a big hole and everything else. But the

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<v Speaker 2>other thing that I think some folks aren't necessarily thinking

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<v Speaker 2>all the way through is if that were happened, there's

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<v Speaker 2>something like what you just described but probably need to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>There would probably be some sort of state tax and increases.

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<v Speaker 2>They would have to do some sort of a redistribution

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<v Speaker 2>out of Columbus back to locals. There'll be the all

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<v Speaker 2>and they'll brike them up with some formula and things

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<v Speaker 2>like that. But the problem is that then the Columbus

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be in more power than ever before

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<v Speaker 2>because part of the reason they have property taxes because

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<v Speaker 2>it's local, it is mostly voted on by local residents,

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<v Speaker 2>although there are some exceptions, and that's actually been one

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<v Speaker 2>of the big problems here is how property tax are

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<v Speaker 2>so complicated. There are some situations where school districts in

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<v Speaker 2>particular are essentially getting increased taxes without votes of the people,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's needs to absolutely be changed. But we'll happens

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<v Speaker 2>if you get rid of the property tax. Is Columbus

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<v Speaker 2>is going to take more power because it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>have to, because it's the one who's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>redistributing all the donors exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, we're better off having local control over

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<v Speaker 1>that money and a local say over whether or not

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<v Speaker 1>we choose to vote for any given levee. But the

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<v Speaker 1>levees are in and of themselves a problem because a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of times you have more people who do not

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<v Speaker 1>own property voting for levees because oh I love the

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<v Speaker 1>parks or I love my schools, and they're not sharing

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<v Speaker 1>in the burden. It's the property tax owner. I know

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<v Speaker 1>that ignores the reality that rent does ultimately increase to

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<v Speaker 1>cover the cost increased costs of taxes on any given

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<v Speaker 1>rental property. But in the final analysis, it just it

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<v Speaker 1>allows these levees to pass, I think, without more scrutiny,

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<v Speaker 1>and and your property tax goes up as a consequence

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<v Speaker 1>of it. But I mean what I know you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>some solution like requiring county commissioners to prove local levees,

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<v Speaker 1>but they're subject to the same political pressures you just

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned in connection with what's going on in Columbus right now, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>They are, and that's why, you know, the nfortunate situation

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<v Speaker 2>here is there aren't silver bullet solutions. This whole situation

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<v Speaker 2>didn't happen overnight. This is decades of things that have happened,

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<v Speaker 2>and I kind of call it the layering effect. We've

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<v Speaker 2>seen a proliferation of different sorts of local taxing authorities

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<v Speaker 2>over the course of literally decades, and so this whole

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<v Speaker 2>situation with the property tax spikes is kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>a unique confluence of events, the perfect storm, because we

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<v Speaker 2>have some real structural issues and how local government and

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<v Speaker 2>local taxing authorities are structured at Ohio that has been

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<v Speaker 2>being built up again over the course of decades. Then

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<v Speaker 2>you had sort of a unique inflation air environment coming

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<v Speaker 2>out of COVID that it has been a massive impact.

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<v Speaker 2>And we had housing shortage in the sense that we

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<v Speaker 2>haven't been building as much housing to keep up in

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<v Speaker 2>certain key places. So that keeps the supply of housing tighter,

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<v Speaker 2>which creates higher values, which is part of how the

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<v Speaker 2>reappraisals are all, which is why the rates are going

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<v Speaker 2>up too. So you have all of this stuff working together.

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<v Speaker 2>And one thing I'm telling legislators, and one thing I

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<v Speaker 2>try to tell folks, and you know, whether it's an

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<v Speaker 2>off eds that we're riding events that I go through

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<v Speaker 2>to speak about, is that in a lot of ways,

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<v Speaker 2>these costs are downstream of structure. And that's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a nerdy way of saying it's because of how we

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<v Speaker 2>organize ourselves at the local level to deliver the services

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<v Speaker 2>that people do want, but it's the way it's organized

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<v Speaker 2>and may built up over so many years with these

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<v Speaker 2>different things, instead of figuring out how to make things

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<v Speaker 2>more efficient, how to do more with less, be efficient,

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<v Speaker 2>leverage technology, maybe care services across different political jurisdictions and stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>and consolidation some things that school districts, I mean, this

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<v Speaker 2>is a third rail for a lot of folks. But

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<v Speaker 2>most Southern states, a lot of Western states too, but

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<v Speaker 2>states with really growing populations, a lot of them have

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<v Speaker 2>union based for the most part, with big city exceptions.

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<v Speaker 2>The county based school districts have way less than we

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<v Speaker 2>do be able to six centered school districts. Do we

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<v Speaker 2>find efficiency that way? And I think those are the

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<v Speaker 2>conversations that we're going to have to have because it's well,

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<v Speaker 2>what we do and how the government structure that is

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<v Speaker 2>leading to the costs, and then you got to figure

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<v Speaker 2>out how to pay for those costs. So we need

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<v Speaker 2>to be more efficient, more effective at figuring out better

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<v Speaker 2>ways to deliver things. Or even if you did get

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<v Speaker 2>rid of property tax, you're not really solving that underlying

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<v Speaker 2>issue of what's making it cost mole.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it would force an analysis of that if we

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<v Speaker 1>ended property texas in Ohio and real quickly without before

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<v Speaker 1>we part company. And it's interesting conversation Greg with real

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<v Speaker 1>no no real answers or quick solutions, Greg Lawson, our

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<v Speaker 1>school funding mechanism was rendered unconstitutional about two decades ago

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<v Speaker 1>by the High Supreme Court, and yet it's still fund

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<v Speaker 1>of the exact same way it was when that's when

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<v Speaker 1>that case came out. Why hasn't that problem been addressed

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<v Speaker 1>by our legislative branch in Ohio?

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<v Speaker 2>Because it's expensive and also because it's the local state

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<v Speaker 2>sort of partnership. The problem with it is we want

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<v Speaker 2>local control through school boards and everything else. So the

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<v Speaker 2>property taxes again kind of like we've talked about before,

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<v Speaker 2>Columbus taking everything over whoever pays pays it or gets

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<v Speaker 2>the funds to redistribute. The funding oftentimes has a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of strings attached to those dollars. The more the state

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<v Speaker 2>would spend, I mean, what a lot of local districts

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<v Speaker 2>kind of want is the state to spend more money

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<v Speaker 2>and they do all the control, and I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if that's exactly how it's going to work. So there's

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<v Speaker 2>sort of this push and pull between who's got all

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<v Speaker 2>the control, combined with the fact that if you had

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<v Speaker 2>the state do all of this, you know, the state

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<v Speaker 2>would probably be raising taxes. There're ably in set of

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<v Speaker 2>cutting taxes, which is happening in the budget here. There's

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<v Speaker 2>an fighting come tax and things like that, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>just how it would work, and so it would be

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<v Speaker 2>a pastor not expensive from the state's perspective. That's definitely

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of it.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess that just ignores the Supreme Court edict that

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<v Speaker 1>it's unconstitutional. The way they're funded right now sounds to

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<v Speaker 1>me like you might be running the teachers' union problems

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<v Speaker 1>and pushback because the control would then rest in Columbus.

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<v Speaker 1>Not that that's necessarily a good thing, but they would

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<v Speaker 1>have control over how money is spent and how much

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<v Speaker 1>money is spent, which would take away local union and

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<v Speaker 1>control from the teachers.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that's definitely per there's no question about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I kind of thought so, Greg Laws and Buckeye

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<v Speaker 1>Institute final online and learn more about what they do

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<v Speaker 1>and what they're on top of each and every day.

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<v Speaker 1>Buckeye Institute dot or Greg. It's always great having on

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<v Speaker 1>the program. And if you come up with a quick

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<v Speaker 1>fixed solution, come right back and let's talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much, my pleasure. Seven to twenty. Right now,

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