Speaker 1: What is up, fellas Echo's I Am Dan Valley coming
at you with the one, the only, the certified, fantabulous,
mister Grant Hughes. We are gathered here today to do
something that no other NBA podcast in the business is doing,
and that is to drop our official twenty twenty six
NBA Awards ballots. Last podcast, we went over mistakes that
were made leading into this season. Zero mistakes will be
made during this podcast. Our ballots are perfect. Even when
they differ, they're somehow one hundred percent correct. Before we
dig in and talk a lot about how stupid the
sixty five game rule is throughout this, Grant, how the
heck are you?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 3: Well? I was.
Speaker 2: The first thing I was going to say is that
there will almost definitely be mistakes made because we're recording
this when several players who are in the running for
major awards may or may not hit sixty five. The
margin for era has trunk zero as far as games
that they're allowed to miss. For some of these guys
will hit that as we get to it. So I
am prepared to also not apologize for any mistakes here
as I did on the previous pod, but there's gonna
be some I got a feeling. I gotta feeling some
guys that we're gonna handle words to are not gonna
run the table down the stretch, Which is fine. This
is just this is the reality of the sixty five
game world we live in, and we will just do
our best to cope.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I look the name.
Speaker 1: I think the three names that are probably were even
the four names would be so in the MVP discussion.
Luca needs to play in one more game, and we're
recording this the day after he suffered that calf injury
and the Lakers lost to the Himming Excuse me, we
are He's probably not gonna be eligible, but we're counting
him as eligible as we do this right now. Wemby
and Jokic can each miss one more game, and I
think Kawhi is the same where he can miss two
and that'll matter for all NBA purposes.
Speaker 2: Denny Avdiya, I think Denny Avdia can miss zero games.
It's one or zero, and he may have featured in
some of these awards.
Speaker 1: Kate Cunningham and Anthony Edwards have already been disqualified, which
is why they're not But this only the sixty five
game rule does not apply to Rookie of the Year,
All Rookie, six Man of the Year SO and Clutch
Player of the Year, only Most Improved Player, Defense Player
of the Year, All Defense, MVP, All NBA. We also
have just to keep things interesting to actually differentiate from
other podcasts. We have a bunch of made up awards
categories at the end that will go through, so stay
tuned for that, or you could skip ahead to the timestamp.
But how would you ever skip ahead on the Mega
Awards podcast? Do you have any other thoughts, comments, concerns,
notes about your approach before we belly flop right into
this there.
Speaker 2: I guess just one in that this feels like a
weird year. Just the sixty five game part of it
is just one aspect, But there's so many usual suspects
that we're not talking about. Steph Jason Tatum, Tyres Halliburton,
Evan Mobley, who is like a pretty consistent presence on
some of these lists last year, might get one mention
at some point.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just I really honestly can't wait to talk to
you about MVP. Do you want to start with MVP?
Did you have a plan to go in a different direction.
Speaker 1: Dude, Actually, could I one more note about the sixty
five game rule. Tom Habistro today published a piece at
Yahoo noting that this season star availability is down from
last year, which was eighty percent of games, and is
now down to sixty percent of games this year, and
it just sort of makes you wonder. The NBA keeps
saying that the sixty five game rule is working, and
I don't know that it's working enough. And I think
my biggest qualm with it is in the MVP.
Speaker 3: Discussion when it comes to the winner.
Speaker 1: I really don't think that you're it would have to
be a weird season or all of the candidates would
need to play in under sixty five games for someone
to win MVP while playing only fifty eight. But when
you get into all NBA, I think, is when it's
truly annoying. Or even if you want to be able
to put KEG Cunningham on the back of your MVP ballot,
but can't I just find that needless? And if you're
going to first of all, doesn't the NBA like welcome debate.
That's why there's no set criteria like what is most
improved player? That's an existential question.
Speaker 2: With MVP has I mean, we don't know what the qualifier,
what the qualifications are for MVP, we don't know how
to define value. Like, so, yes, the NBA benefits from
the ambiguity of all that.
Speaker 1: And I take exception to people that say, well, why
don't you want the best players to play and to
get rid of the sixty five game rule?
Speaker 3: And that is not what it's about.
Speaker 1: And you're not even I would say ninety nine of
the next one hundred MVP races in at least ninety
nine of them, You're probably not voting for someone who
misses more than twenty games in a season.
Speaker 2: Right, Probably not. I just think any discussion of the
rule that moves beyond it was designed to make sure
that the media rights deal was as lucrative as possible
and that the gambling lives could be miss is the point, Like,
it's just that's just what it was for. To to
pretend that it was designed to get players to play more,
I didn't even think that was part of it. They're
just like, let's make sure that these media partners have
the feeling that the best players are going to play.
That's why this rule exists.
Speaker 3: It's all.
Speaker 2: It's the only reason. It's all we care about. It's
like the idea that so, yeah, that's all just that,
that's the point of the rule. We don't need to
discuss whether it's incentivizing players to play more or not,
because that was never the point. It's just it was
for media rights. We can move on, I think, in discussing.
Speaker 1: It, and we can move on to our MVP ballots. Grant,
do you want to take us through your MVP ballot?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Uh so I ended up with shake Gil just
Alexander winning it. Can we have the discussion now, though,
So I have wemby second, and I told you off
air at this time yesterday, I was ready to do it.
I was ready to be on the right side of history.
I was ready to try to make the arguments that
Wem Benyama had a case statistically beyond the like wemben
Yama's true case is watching him and the way he
affects a game is now officially different from watching any
other player, and I think that includes Jokic, certainly more
so than SGA, who's just a very very very good
version of something we've seen before the way when Benyama
affects the game now on both ends because of his
gravity around the basket and what defenses have to do
to just not allow him to catch the ball close
because he's just dunking those. Now it's hard to quantify,
Like if you did want to quantify it, you can
say the Spurs net rating is higher when Wemby's on
the floor than the Thunders is with Shay. Most of
the catch all still like Shay a little better. They're
just I couldn't quite get there statistically, and I wasn't
comfortable relying on the like I just feel it that
he's the most valuable player this year. And I also
think the fact is he wasn't this in November, not
quite or December like wem been Yama. I think has
improved over the course of the year where to the
point where if he had played all year like he has,
let's just say since the All Star break or maybe
even a little before that, I would have he would
have won it. For me. I think he's the best
player right now today. I think I think he's better.
And I didn't even mention him when we last discussed this,
and I was like, well, I think Shaye today is
better than Jokic. I think wemen Yama is the best
player in the world right now. I don't think he's
been that all year. So I have to go with
Shae and then so you want to discuss that before
we go rest of the ballot. But I feel like
that's to me, that was the biggest hang up I had.
I wanted to give this to Wemby and I couldn't
quite get there.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: I have Shae at won, Jokic at two and Wemby
is four for me, and so I think the wemen
Yameda is is one to be had because I staunchly
disagree that he's.
Speaker 3: The best player in the world right now.
Speaker 1: I think he's the most entertaining player in the world
potentially at the moment. The stuff he does on defense,
I reckon, we've never seen anything like it, and it's
I don't know, has there even ever been a singular
defender who impacts the thinking and approach of all five
players on the court the way that he does. The
rim deterrence numbers are through the roof. There's not gonna
be a convercea like our Defensive Player of the Year
discussion is gonna be very cursory all defense is more
interesting just because we know who's gonna win Defensive Player
of the Year. It won't he plays in enough games
for all he's able to do on offense. I don't
know how you argue that someone who is not primarily
responsible for driving his team's offense is more valuable than
I have. Luca at three as an example, I think
defense can bridge that gap to an extent. But if
you just look at like so, true usage is one
of my favorite stats where factors in not just it's
the number of possessions you're using of your team's offense,
but it's not just turnovers and shooting possessions. It's also
accounting for assists and potential assists. Shay is ninth in
true usage, Jokich is eighth, Luca is third, Wemby is
forty second, And so I wanted to try and account
for I say, I like, I made up this metric,
but I wanted to account for, like, well, do we
need to figure out like the defensive workload that he shoulders?
Speaker 3: And so. Two of the other stats that be Ball
Index has, which are really cool is two way workload,
which is your on ball action share on offense plus
your matchup difficulty on defense. Luka is nineteenth, Jokich is
actually one pint eighty seven, Shay is in the top fifty.
Speaker 1: Wemby's around two hundred and fiftieth. If you look at
two way usage, which is matchup difficulty plus your true
usage on offense, Wemby's outside the one one hundred and fifty.
Everybody else who's like we would consider for MVP is
in the top sixty.
Speaker 3: This doesn't.
Speaker 1: And the other thing I hate about these debates is
it we end up focusing on what a player is
not doing. When I find so compelling about Wemby's case,
and you made it at the top, is this is
the first time in a while it feels as if
we get to focus on look at what this player
is doing.
Speaker 3: Because he's a new entrant into this mix.
Speaker 1: So I have him on the top five of my
MVP ballot, But I don't think what he does on
defense is going to offset the gap that I still
believe exists between him and joll Kitchen Sga specifically, but
also Luca m like that ability to ferry an entire team.
Speaker 3: I understand Wemby's gravity.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of breakdowns on that, but a
lot of his offense and he might get to a point.
We've seen moments he gets to his spots and he
just scores. But you're not even looking at the way
other teams defend the Spurs. You're not putting your best
defender on Victor Wenbinyama most of the time. And so
I baked that in there there too, And that just
was part of my logic here.
Speaker 2: Look, I couldn't get there, so I can't really push
back too strongly. I think you know I get so
this is why this is an insufficient argument. It's why
I couldn't get to Wemby at number one, despite the
fact that he's the best player on the team that's
been the best in the league by record in net
ratings since late November. So like, if you want to
get real simple, best player, best team for that for
most of the year, not all of it. Again, that's
another reason, Like I'll say, yeah, that first month and
a half counts. I really do think there is an
argument to be made that we won. The numbers aren't
catching it. They aren't catching what he's doing. I think
on both ends, and I think the intuitively you can
sense that on defense. You know, we've spent the year
talking about like what do we call it when like
a guy on a transition breakaway just decides no because
Wembin Yama is somewhere in the neighborhood. And that applies
to half court possessions too. It's just like, I don't
think we've we've properly quantified his impact on a defense
wherever he.
Speaker 3: Is on the floor.
Speaker 2: I think there's also a case to be made about
him offensively. Kind of along those same lines, I'm not
sure we totally get yet what he's doing to impact
winning Offensively. We can see it like twenty four ish
points a game on sixty plus true shooting. That's he's
an all star offensively if he's a bad defender with
numbers like that, But I don't think that we're quite
capturing those numbers. It is so and the sort of
upshot of that is the idea that defense is fifty
percent of the game. I do think fell out of
favor over the last ten years or so when we
all I think agreed correctly that shot creation is the
most important skill a player can have, and so we
value these first option offensive players more than the best defenders.
Like it's why Rudy Gobert has never been an MVP
consideration despite being the best defender for a lot of
his career. I wonder if wen beIN Yama's impact on
defense is so you know, far and away. If there's
a spectrum, right, it's like he's so far on the
end from the rest of the field and from just
the rest of the all defense candidates, that like, it's
okay if he's the fortieth best offensive player because he's
number one by so much on defense that it's like, well,
that's eighty percent, it's not fifty percent. He's so good
that we just count that as you know what I mean,
there's something happening with him that's different that I don't
have a firm grip on, and I don't think we
collectively have a firm grip on it. That said, he's
not my MVP. I wanted him to be. I couldn't
do it just on vibes. He will be my MVP
pick preseason next year, no matter what happens, and it's
gonna be that way for a while.
Speaker 1: I guess what I find interesting is that you already
consider him the best player in the world because I
go ahead. Even if I would agree with you that
it's tough to catch, I think it's tough to capture
what any good defender does on defense, quite frankly, if
you're just only looking at numbers but off like even
if he's doing so, like what is he how are
you saving enough points preventing enough points on the defensive
end to make up for Like if Jokic is accounting
for fifty plus points of like are you accounting? Are
you impacting your team's defense by fifty plus?
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like what, I don't struggle he is a defender unlike
any we've seen. I just struggle with the comparing how
do you measure defensive impact relative to offensive impact? Because
it feels as if one player has more control over
elevating that ceiling than it does on the defensive end.
And even if you are the best defender of all
time on the defensive end, I don't know that that's
ever gonna be worth more in misdiscussion than the best
offensive player.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's a few things. One, the Spurs
just have a higher net rating with wem Beyond than
the Thunderdoo with shay On, and so it's like, well,
whatever's happening, they're winning those minutes, and we could have
an argument about who's supporting cast is better if you
want to like try to apportion the credit, you know,
for the net raiding stuff. I think what you're talking
about is the Bill Russell argument. Like those Bill Russell
title teams eleven and thirteen years were one defensively because
of him, and a bunch of those Celtics teams had.
I mean, I think they almost always had a below
average offense and often had some of the worst offensive
production in the league, but the defense created by Russell
and it was so good that the gap, the net
raiding or whatever was the best in the league. So
it's kind of similar with Wemby. It's just like, if
you're that much better on one end, I guess you
can get away with not being a first option shot
creator like we like we prefer our MVPs to be,
because you're just winning. You're making it so your team
cannot lose the minutes you're on the floor in a
different way, and I mean that's borne out by the numbers.
Like the Spurs don't lose when Wemby's on the court,
you don't outscore the Spurs and they outscore you by
sixteen per hundred, So like, however, it's getting done. I
attribute the Spurs success almost not entire but the vast
majority of it owes to him, Like how good is
this team if Luke Cornett is the center all the time?
It's like, what are we saying about Castle and Harper
and Fox and all? And I just it's I think
he's just an elevator in ways that I don't. I
can't quantify it. Again, it's vibes. That's why he didn't
get it.
Speaker 1: But well, the other question I would have is, so
when I looked at I started looking at your like
solo star minutes for each player to see how their
team's fared. Wemby wins that category too, the samples admittedly smaller,
but I did get to thinking, if you pulled the
second most important player off of every single MVP candidates
team is Wemben Yama's Spurs. So I guess in that case,
you're pulling off Fox.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Still, Yeah, it's close, it could be of the Spurs.
Speaker 1: Are the Spurs better than the Thunder? If you pull
off j Dubb or pull off chat hoolmgrin. Are they
better than the Nuggets if you pull off Jamal Murray?
I just it's a somewhat disingenuous argument, but that's I'm
trying to approach this from all separate.
Speaker 3: That's why I just can't get there one day. I
agree with you.
Speaker 1: I think he might just get to that point now,
and this isn't you specifically. It feels like there's this
rush to coordinate a little the best player or the MVP.
Speaker 2: I feel that too. I feel that is I'm not
I'm not immune to that. I think I just I
don't know. I think i've I will I will admit
I've watched more Spurs lately than any other team. They're
the number one pick if I got to choose games
every night, So I've I've seen way more Wemby than
Shay or Jokic this year. But part of that's because,
like I get it, Fellas, I know what those guys do.
I understand, and I I just part of that swaying
me because you can't watch wemban Yama like what's the
last like ho hum game he's had? You know, like
this year there's always something or several somethings that are
just I don't know what to do with that, or
that's no one else can do that, or like, so
I'm swayed. I think by just watching more of him too.
If we were doing our preseason MVP picks for twenty
six twenty seven, would you have him fourth or would
you move him up your ballot?
Speaker 3: Hypothetic he'd be in the top three.
Speaker 1: I think Jokich would be my pick for next year,
still be my preseason pick, which so I think we
could you have Weby's there's a case.
Speaker 3: The fact that there's a case is kind of the other.
Speaker 1: Thing that I like, you picked Shay for MVP the
margins even if you think Wemby's the best player right now,
for Shay to play like four hundred more minutes or
whatever it is, that that's gonna be a huge difference maker.
I will say, I think Jokic has a like people
have kind of just written off Yokic as he came
back from the left knee injury as defense sucks, And
I'm here to let people know, Yes, defensive rebounding counts,
which is still the ends possessions, that's a huge deal. No,
the defense is rough like the way that the Nuggets
have been built around. Like when Yokic has been on
the floor consistently, teams get to the rim actually less,
which has a lot to do with how they use
him who's on the court. When you've dealt with absences
from Peyton Watson, Aaron Gordon, this version of Yo Kich,
those numbers have flipped a bit. So yeah, the defense
has been bad. But here we are again Grant And
if you go look at the catch alls for every
team supporting cast members, k this is Jamal Murray's probably
gonna make all NBA, and Jo Kich once again has
statistically the worst supporting cast in the league. Now, that's
not to detract from other people, like you can't penalize
Shay because his supporting cast is so good by the way,
he's barely had Jay Dubb, and when he's had Ja Dubb,
it hasn't been caps locked Jay Dubb. But statistically, I
know Aaron Gordon missed a bunch of time. I know
Cam Johnson missed a bunch of time. I know Peyton
Watsons missed a bunch of time. That's almost sort of
the point is Jo Kich really does feel as if
he is suffering from I hate it like voter fatigue
here He's not my MVP, but it's people just like no,
like he slipped a little bit and non Jamal Murray's
the best season of his careers. It's fine if you
think that Shay is better. I think that she's been
more valuable, but I think that his case is actually
way more compelling because you could say it's not Shay's
fault or Wemby's fault. Dude, who's supporting cast? Would you
rather have right now? Wemby's or Jokic's.
Speaker 2: That's tough. I mean, I love the top end guys
on Denver, I love Gordon, I love Murray, but after that,
I'm giving you all the Spurs basically, so I guess.
I guess ultimately, ultimately I like the Nuggets top guys,
but if you're talking full supporting cast like rotation, I'd
rather have the Spurs.
Speaker 1: Right And I think even with the Spurs' top guys,
it's I mean, like Steph Castle and dearon Fox and
Devin Vessel is like how much Jamal Murray's clearly the
second best I think of everyone, Like.
Speaker 2: If Dylan Harper is on the Nuggets. One that dude's starting,
and two you're like ecstatic about it, right, So and
like Harper doesn't start for the Spurs, just for point
of reference.
Speaker 1: And that's not again, I'm not trying to detract from it.
I'm just propping up Jokic here by saying what he's
doing is still when he this is not the best
version of him we've ever seen what he's still doing
to the Nuggets to where yes, the thunder are better
with shut on the court, the Spurs are way better
with Wemby on the court. The Nuggets are plus eleven
point one per one hundred with Yokich on the court
with a one twenty eight offensive rating, which is in
the ninety nine percent tile and that is by far
and away the highest offensive rating with.
Speaker 3: Anyone on the court.
Speaker 1: I think, look, the defense matters, but the it's not
even just the workload he carries on offense or if
you just I mean the numbers are yeah, like this
is just the reduced version of Jokic. He's gonna come
out and average twenty eight points and eleven assists per
he leads a league and assists in rebounds too, Like
that's a big deal sixty four percent on twos, thirty
nine percent on threes.
Speaker 3: I think I've just.
Speaker 1: Been a little bit miffed at how quickly people are
willing to dismiss Jokic's case.
Speaker 3: Is all I think.
Speaker 2: I think you can't be a serious person and have
him outside the top three. I think I think, like,
I just don't know how you get there, and we
both have him top three. You've got him second, I've
got him third. I think, just one last thing on Jokic,
the voter fatigue is real. Like it like he's going
to average a triple double. So he could he could
score zero points, grab zero rebounds, and hand out zero
sists for the rest of the season, he would still
average a triple double in so far as that matters.
The leading the league in assistant rebounds, to me, is
like more worthwhile as a stat and just more ridiculous
and more reflective of what he does. I think he's
hurt by the fact that when just looking at the Spurs,
the Thunder and the Nuggets, the Nuggets lows have been
have looked bad like they've they've The Nuggets have had
some conspicuous like very shitty weeks and longer than that. Yeah,
clutch stuff. Is it so like in a way that
like there's not really a Shay, Like all that the
dude does is score twenty points, Like that's a historically
like that's there's no The lows for the Thunder have
not been the same, the lows for the Spurs have
not been the same. And even when the Spurs have
looked bad, like earlier in the season, it's like, well,
they're average age is like seventeen and a half, so
of course they're of course they don't, you know what
I mean, Like they get a pass in ways that
Yogics and the Nuggets don't because there's no well just
give him a little time for yokicchen the Nuggets. It's
not it's a different thing. So fair or not. I
think that's a factor too, not leading either of our ballots.
Speaker 3: Shay suffers it too.
Speaker 1: By the way, we've talked very little about the player
who's actually gonna you go.
Speaker 3: You just want to simplify it as of right now.
Speaker 1: I mean, the Spurs could still catch the Thunder, but
best player, best team, should you want to go that
route done? I think like he's so important to the offense.
You watch the Thunder. It's when he's off the floor,
or if he's off the ball, or if teams are
like double triple teaming him like the Thunder just don't
have a lot of counters right now, Chet Holmgreen can't
hit it three if Shake gild zuxandersm on the court
at the moment. And the other thing too is people say, yeah,
he's an active I say it too. He's an active
participant in an all time great defense. I don't even
think that he's like the third or fourth reason why
they're great on defense, but he has a real defensive
workload in ways that this is positionally like Jokic and
Wemby are never gonna have.
Speaker 3: But even if you look at Luca, you'll.
Speaker 1: Find that the average usage rate of players that he
is guarding is higher than with Shay's. But the reason
for that is Luca, I know he was better, like
for a month or whatever. He still gonna go after
him defensively. They don't go after Shake gildas Alexander defensively.
Speaker 3: And then he does that.
Speaker 1: On top of he plays like he can play an
important position defensively as a defensive disruptor and playmaker.
Speaker 3: And I think that part of his game. When you
get into the.
Speaker 1: Who has the heaviest two way workload in the league,
it's some combination. I'm not gonna sign, Like, the data
is not gonna say Wemby, but Wemby's there. I think
Kawhi is there, Kate is there, Jalen Brown is there
for sure, but Shay is right there and might even
be just number one because of how heavy I would argue,
just anecdotally speaking, I think Jokich and Caig Cunningham are
probably the only players that have a case for carrying
a heavier offensive workload. You could probably find stats that
will throw Luca in there too, but that's more of
a functional choice, whereas with Luca or whereas with Shay
and Yo Kicch, it's more of a necessity. It feels
like I think that I just think it's not our
best two way player in the game. It's no this
is one of what the three best players on offense
right now, Like who qualify for awards anyway? Who is
also shouldering a medium sized workload on the defensive end.
That's just not something you get to say about a
lot of the megastars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I don't know just to
to move along with. You had Luca third, I had
him fourth. Just the numbers are what they are. He
had scored six hundred points in March. He was just
on fire. Now he's hurt and may not be available.
He may not qualify.
Speaker 3: He's not let's call spade a spade. He's not.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do him the disrespect if we
haven't gotten the updates. We did this, he's not going
to qualify for awards. That's just the day three at
the end of the season. No, right, and so maybe
the last it is the last part to talk about here.
You had Kawhi as your fifth place MVP pick. I
had Jalen Brown, and I will I will concede there
is not a statistical case on planet Earth for Jalen
Brown to be this high.
Speaker 2: Right if you look at like the on off that's
been you know, talking about all year, the catch alls
hate him, all that stuff. I'm sorry, Like I maybe
this is me just trying to wrap my head around
the Celtics. I just firmly believe that if he doesn't
dramatically up his usage and change the types of shots
he's taking and change the volume at which he's taking them,
and always be up for guarding a very difficult assignment.
I just don't think any of this happens in Boston.
I think we have to credit the coaching and the
infrastructure and the types of players they target, and the
development and the tactics and all that stuff like this
didn't happen just because Jalen Brown had the best year
of his career. I just think all the conventional arguments
you'd make in his favor, the role, the amplification of
his role, like the diff the degree of difficulty, the
odds being stacked, like all that stuff, he just it
felt right. I think if you're asking you who I
if I pick want to pick a player to win
a game tomorrow, I might just go with Kawhi over him. Still,
so I assume that's what you're you're you're and the
catch alls like Kawhi a hell of a lot more
than they like Jalen Brown.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look the efficiency and you could say
the Jalen Brown's case is the workload, because there's no
other player in the league where you say he's his
team's most important offensive player and then no worse than
their second most important defensive player.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's Derek White is.
Speaker 1: There, but he's not handling a lot of the toughest
one on one asign who else.
Speaker 2: He's limited Positionally, you can't throw Derek White on like
a big three or a power forward. Jalen Brown can
do that.
Speaker 3: That's actually, I mean, that's a good one.
Speaker 1: So who is because Kate is not the second most
important player defensively for his team, you.
Speaker 2: Know, but that's just because he happens to have a
shits on a really good defenders around him on a normal.
Speaker 1: But I mean, Jalen Brown's workload, the on awes are
what they are, like, but yeah, everything you laid out
is his guy.
Speaker 3: I just think it's the workload.
Speaker 1: And then still being okay, the numbers are still kind
of insane, Like he's at almost he's thirty four percent
from three to fifty two percent on twos. What did
it for me with Kawhi is he's had to prop
up some pretty just not glitzy lineups himself twenty eight
points and fewer in a little bit less played, Like
his per thirty six minutes scoring average is higher than
Jalen Brown's. He's at Quiland thirty one point four versus
thirty point one for Jalen Brown. Efficiency is just insane,
thirty eight point five percent from three fifty seven percent
on twos, the vast majority of which just go unassisted.
He's still he's the better. Is he the better playmaker
than Jalen Brown?
Speaker 3: At this point? Jalen Brown averages more assists.
Speaker 1: But I trust Kawhi more to make the right decision
with the ball, if that's a fair way to say it.
And I think that he's still like Pete Kawai on
defense is like Jalen Brown. I think it's close, but
Kawhi has been the more efficient offense, the more dominant
offensive player. To me, You've had some turnover with his team, uh,
and he's had to prop up some pretty tough lineups himself, honestly,
And maybe I'm just flabbergast that he's even as of
right now still eligible to like, you know, the war's better.
There's that element to it too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to get it in there while you can,
because it's like, oh, he made it, what are the
other I do think there's a funny parallel between these
two guys, which is I mean one of them was
sort of exterior expectations with respect to the Celtics, and
one was like pretty clearly in house, like the Clippers
traded away their other two best players, and Kauhi was
just kind of like, we're actually not going to be bad.
Sorry to disappoint you, and and and Jalen Brown the
Celtics are supposed to have a gap year was just like,
what's that? I No, not not while I'm here. I'm
gonna have the best season in my career. They both
really like kept teams in, put teams in positions that
was way beyond expectations. I don't know how you weigh
that in an MVP discussion, but it's interesting that they
both have that in their favor and you're making their cases.
Speaker 3: Who would So let's.
Speaker 1: Just assume if Luca does get bounced off, are we
just swapping like I'd have Jalen Brown coming in at a.
Speaker 3: Fifth and you'd have Gui coming in at fifth or
is there someone else you'd be throwing on the ballot
with no Luca?
Speaker 2: No, that would that would have to be it. Do
you want to go into all NBA next just to
kind of extend that.
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't remember whose teams I put first on
the board, I put mine because I'm an narcissist.
Speaker 3: So first team is just my.
Speaker 1: MPP ballot, Sga Yokich, Luca wemb Kawhi. Then I have
Jalen Brown on second team, Donovan Mitchell on second team.
I think that's the seven locks as of right now
for me, where it's okay, these seven spot like, these
players are no worse than all NBA second team, and
then everything else thereafter just gets.
Speaker 3: Kind of wild.
Speaker 1: So I have on my second team Tyre's Maxi, Jalen Brunton,
and Kevin Durant.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be honest with you, Grant.
Speaker 1: I don't feel great about the Kevin Durant pick, but
I don't know how you look at someone who's just
out here averaging twenty five plus points on historical efficiency. Again,
and the Rockets offense gets by. If Shangon's off the court,
it's still good with Duran. If im and Thompson is
off the court, it's still good with Durant. No, Reed Shepherd,
it's still good with Durant. I'm maybe I'm just tainted
by the vibes. Something feels rotten wherever he goes at
this point, and then the crunch time experience for Houston's
been rough. The dude can still ball up. I have
chet third team, Jalen Durans is a lock for me.
Third team, Jalen Johnson as well, Jamal Murray's third team,
and I have Devin Booker my toughest cut with Scottie Barnes.
I've loved Scottie Barnes this season. I think I'm trying
to think if there's anything real debatable one, So the
Devin Booker. I know the efficiency has come down, but
if you look at anyone that you were gonna begin
to consider for all NBA grant and you look at
the offensive catch alls, Devin Booker doesn't even have like
a top three hundred like collective supporting cast. And there's
just no other one of these players. I could say
the same the fact that their offense is in basically
the seventieth percent Highwan Booker's on the court, and I
still think he's one of the games more underrated passer.
He's probably the most Just what Jalen duran has done
offensively this year's good. He's gotten better on the perimeter defensively,
but his efficiency with Kate Cunning him off the floor
has spiked this.
Speaker 3: Year, and so that's a huge deal for him.
Speaker 1: Then Jalen Johnson just offensive engine in Atlanta before Trey
Young left, and after Trey Young left some weird half
court stuff, but he's just been great offensively.
Speaker 3: This this is the.
Speaker 1: Year Murray makes an All NBA team, right. The shot
making has been insane. The minutes without Yo Kich are
still rough. But surprise, surprise, I came closest to putting
Chet on second team. As I'm just rambling here about
my choices. I just I'd like to see more from
him offensively.
Speaker 2: Still, yeah, I think he's so I have basically we
flip flop Kawhi and Jalen Brown for my team on
second half, Kawhi as second team or obviously Donovan Mitchell
I think. I think obviously Jalen Brunson, And then the
two differences I have are Chet and Jalen Johnson made
my second team. I would just like to point out
that if we could include Cade, Steph Tatum, Halliburton, and
that's five more guys that I think would be no
worse than second team, And so that makes me feel
better about getting past those top seven guys. That you
talked about and being like, I don't know, dude, there's
twenty five players that could take these last eight spots
between the end and the second team and the beginning
of third team. So that gave me a little comfort
because the rest of this is hard. We're mostly similar.
So I also had Murray on my third team. I
had Maxi third instead of second like you did. I
had Durant third again because of all the he leaves
it worse than he found it that knocked him down
to third for me. And then I did have Barnes third,
and Bam out of Bio was my final third teamer.
We've both got like some honorable mentions that I think
there's a great case for every single one of them
making it over a third team guy and maybe even
some back end second teamers. But again that's because there
are literally five, no worse than second teamers that are
not able to be considered for this award.
Speaker 1: Yeah, who was your toughest cut leave off?
Speaker 3: Mine was Scotty Barnes. Who was yours?
Speaker 2: Uh? I mean it might have been Denny Avdya, but
he again, he's someone that might not make it. I
think he has to play every game and this recording.
Speaker 3: Ever since his injury, what was it the back or
he's had.
Speaker 2: A back all year? I mean yeah, other than that.
Speaker 1: Well, have my honorable mentions included h Denny Avdya, Pascal Siakam,
James Harden, Scottie Barnes already said, and then.
Speaker 3: LaMelo deserves an honorable mention here as well.
Speaker 2: To me, I guess so I had I didn't have
Jalen Duran on an All NBA team. He's on my
like honorable mentioned fourth team. So maybe that was That's
the one that him and Avdia I think are the
ones you tough.
Speaker 1: You potentially cost him a thirty percent max sir by doing.
Speaker 2: That good thing. I don't vote. Uh yeah, we're mostly
aligned here, I think, But did you feel the same
way of like you get halfway through second team and
you're kind of wondering where the no brainers are At
that point, they just we kind of ran out. It
feels like earlier than I wasn't.
Speaker 1: Even sure if and this might be an overexposure to
like their topsy turbinus. I wasn't even sure if Jalen
Brunton deserved to be like a lot second team. I
said seven locks, and then he was kind of my eighth.
He's probably on the fringe of it. But yeah, and look,
some of it is just guys playing different roles or
in these weirds. So forget about the players removed from injuries.
But Tyrese Maxie ascending to the sixers all everything this year,
Jalen Johnson doing the same in Atlanta. Uh, and then
Scotti barr again I left him off my team. Scotty
Barnes didn't know how to square away where it's I
looked and I was like, you know, he doesn't do
like enough for the offense and like, but part of
what I really appreciate about his seasons that he's off
the ball more on offense and figuring out a way
to make it work and so circumstances.
Speaker 2: Like that, and probably had the best defensive season of
his career. Like all all.
Speaker 1: Tolls, he's like what if, Like what if ogn Andobi
was also a defensive playmaker and on steroids basically is
what like what Scottie Barnes does.
Speaker 2: So this was hard. They are just too many guys
that I would haven't have locked put in, you know,
like if if the games were quite obviously Edwards, obviously Cunningham.
Speaker 3: If we didn't those were all NBA locked guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I would have considered both over Jalen
Brown on my first team. Like actually, Kate would have
made first team.
Speaker 1: Kate Cad would have been my He would have been
fifth on my MVP ballot as well over Kwhy. Yeah,
and Edwards would have been I think he would have
been on my second team.
Speaker 3: And so it's just if the injuries is like Tatum
and Haliburton, we.
Speaker 1: Knew that going in they weren't going to qualify. Whatever Giannish,
we didn't even mention his name.
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ right, Yeah, he might have been a consideration
if he'd stayed healthy, like he would have been first team.
First team would be done. And so then you're talking
aunt Kate, Well, that would have been interesting if Jannis
has a relative. If Jannis gets to sixty five games
with his numbers because he displays Caid from first team.
Speaker 1: Actually that would have been one of the cool And
maybe this is just how each season works out, as
you can't get it, but if Caid, Anthony, Edwards, and
Giannis had all qualified, that would have made for just
a really fun like all NBA debate for the first
two teams.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I mean Jannis, who knows the Bucks probably
would have sucked anyway. But Jannis, if he if his
numbers had held up over a full season, you have
to He's on the MVP ballot too.
Speaker 1: They're like, there were plus nine points per one hundred
persons with Gianni's floors. That's maybe they wouldn't talk about
a carry job. I know Ryan Ronalds has been good,
but my.
Speaker 2: Guy, Yeah, all right, what's next? Where are we going?
Speaker 3: You want to take us through defensive Player of the Year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this slightly less debate. I feel like across the
board here we we also have the same ballot wemby
one with a bullet There's it's not close. For me,
It's not a conversation. There's no discussion. He's the best
defensive player i've does.
Speaker 3: He lead the league in rebounds defensive.
Speaker 2: He's the best defender I've ever seen. I don't. I mean,
this is that's hyperbolic. It's recency biased, Like because I've
seen Aichem Olaja want to play basketball, I remember that.
But you know, David Robinson, I've seen Tim Duncan, I've
seen Kevin Garnett never seen anybody do what Wemby does,
and eventually we're going to figure out how to quantify
it appropriately. Rudy Gobert second, he's back to like the
defense is just great when he plays, and it's basically
because of him. And then Chet is a pretty easy
third for me. I'd be curious if who you had,
if you had anybody really challenging for the top three here, Chet,
like the rebounding not great, He can be pushed around.
He's not physically as strong as as Gobert. He doesn't
have Wemby's length that offsets a similar kind of strength issue.
I would argue Wemby's probably harder to move though than
Chet even now, just with physicality. But Chet just as
a rover, as a guy that you can't attack as
a guard on a switch is like he just that
is a pretty clear third to me.
Speaker 3: That's the big stuff for me.
Speaker 1: Then the ability to contest those jumpers but also get
back and still contest at the rim. He actually leads
the league in like the impact on opponent shot quality,
so no team's overall shot quality declines by more, which
like than having Chet on the floor, which is pretty
I think that it's weird that it's not Wemby, But
when you look, it does feel like Chet is more
in those isolation perimeter situations. So I think that would
make sense if you dig into it. I do think
some people, if I did consider Scottie Barnes here, like
to be in the top three. But I think some
people will be surprised. I haven't seen like too many
Rudy Gobert Top two defense. I don't even if I've
seen him on a lot of Top three. You said it, though,
it's not just that the defense is good when he's on.
Ja mc dan has been really good defensively this year.
That's like really about it for the Wolves. The other
thing is that the defense is still designed to like,
no you, I dare you to go in to Rudy Gobert.
And when you look at so where Chet leads the
league in the influence and opponent shot quality an opponent
expected shot performance, this is the entire floor. Nobody has
a bigger swing than Rudy Gobert there, and that's you
know what It lignes. The rim frequency is down a lot,
not as much as Wemby, but who is when Rudy
Gobert is on the court, you toggle, take Jane McDaniels off,
you know who stills an only defense. If Rudy go
Bear's on the court, the Wolves doesn't matter if it's
not as or for Julius Randall next to him. And
by the way, neither of those especially Julius Randall for
like two thirds of this season. If you were to
make a rotation player who doesn't appear entirely checked in
on the defensive end, like All NBA team, Julius Randall's
making first team.
Speaker 3: There like the.
Speaker 1: Mount that Rudy Gobert has to shoulder. And I think
I might have said this in a podcast a couple
of months ago. You can kind of see it in
certain lineups with the Wolves if they if they forget
or defend, like Rudy Gobert is still behind him and
he's not because he's off the court.
Speaker 3: It's a disaster.
Speaker 1: And even the other night, what game was where Chris
Finch went to the nasry Julius Randall look and it's
game theory. It's like, oh, offensive dynamism again. I think
it was the game that Ant missed. So I say
the other night it was Thursday night, or was it
whatever night was. While I was watching that game, I
don't want to see it. And then like Rudy Gobert,
how many Defensive Players of the Year deep already and
we're still saying this for that's kind of insane.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think too, he really, I was just
looking down the rest of our ballots. You have on
your third team one guy that you would describe this way,
but there's not another conventional like throw I guess throwback
just rim protecting center on any anywhere on our defensive
Player of the Year or all defense ballots. He's like
the last of this type. It feels like because everybody else,
it doesn't matter how tall you are or how great
a shot blocker a you are, like you gotta be
able to move and and like he has always been
better in isolation on the perimeter than he's gotten credit for,
because there's there's highlight packages of him getting cooked by
Steph and Luca and whatever. But like he's good at that.
It's just that he's the last. I mean, I'm trying
to think of who else even there is in the
league that plays the defensive center position like him. Well,
I think he's gonna be on your third team, right, yeah,
there is.
Speaker 3: I came.
Speaker 1: I came very close, but after consulting with people who
have watched Borm than I have, they told me that
would be a little bit of a rushed coordinat So
he came very close to making one of my All
defense teams though, So.
Speaker 2: Let's jump to the All defense then, Yeah? Is that
is that our next move?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I split these up.
Speaker 1: Ars will be since there's only two of them, they'll
both be on this green at the same time. So
my first team is my All Defense is my is
my Defensive Player of the Year ballot.
Speaker 3: So wemby Rudy Gobert Chat.
Speaker 1: I have Scottie Barnes first team, and then Asar Thompson,
who's a certified maniac on the defense. You want someone
like it's the defense of playmaking, it's the matchup to Fficulty,
It's the way that he's shifting opponent shots.
Speaker 3: It's oh, he could be if he really needed him to.
Speaker 1: Like, he'll contest a ton of looks at the RAM
even though he doesn't necessarily need to all the time
in Detroit scheme, and he creates like nobody forces just
turnovers more like just outright forces turnovers and retains possession
more than he does in the league. He's been fantastic
and he probably has a case as the best one
on one defender in the NBA right now. His brother
also has a case. You could there are other guys
that throw in there, but he has a real case,
and he's the only I know. He's more of a
football like Scottie Barnes plays. He still does a ton
of the one on one stuff. Like man, I loved
Scotty Barnes's defense this season is bit nuts. But who's
on your first first team?
Speaker 2: So I had a star all the same reasons I
I it's hard to be a first team all defense
guy if you're not a big to me still, but
it's just a star as singularly dominant as a wing
and guard and forward defender. I put Bam on my
first team. I think he also as a case as
the best one on one defender in the league because
he really truly is a five position guy. The shot
blocking and the rim protection that's been a knock on
him forever. It also doesn't help that the heat are
giving up one hundred and sixty points a night like
the past two weeks. Which is you know, I I
still think that his versatility his like there's no attacking him.
That's just like not it's not done. It doesn't matter
what the what position you have on the ball against him.
So I don't know, maybe that's that's a little bit
of a where did you have him? Just so I
know how how crazy I'm not being. Did you have
him on your Uh? You got him?
Speaker 3: Where is?
Speaker 2: You don't have Bam anywhere? Defense is always on your
second team? I see I'm looking at the doctor Celes
Scottie Barnes there, thank god. Okay, uh yeah, not a
lot to add I just I love Bam. I think
he's he may not be quite what he was three
or four years ago defensively, but he's he's still just
you could you can build it championship defense with Bam
in the middle of it.
Speaker 1: The thing that's hold me on a sarrow over Bam
is And this is a stupid like he is for
the position and role that he plays. Being second in
defensive estimated plus minus is absurd.
Speaker 2: Pretty well, it's just.
Speaker 1: Like that's that's wild. But again, he just does so
so many other things. You want to take us through
your second.
Speaker 2: Team Uh yeah, So I had Scottie Barnes leading off
my second team, and then I wanted to have mobile.
Evan Mobley is on it. I feel like he has been.
I would say the word disappointment is probably coming up
first in discussing him in his progress this season based
on last year. The pendulum classic Hardwood Knock's statement the
pendulum has swung a little too far towards the negative.
On Evan Mobley. I think he's still one of the
ten best defenders in the league. That might even sell
him short.
Speaker 1: And props up a good defense whether he's playing the
four or the five.
Speaker 2: Right right. You also don't attack him in space another
that's kind of gonna need to be a fact for
the rest of this ballot. If you're a big guy
than Gobert and you're you're to be named later. Third
teamer Derek White, Iman Thompson, O Gann Andobi. I don't
know what to say about those guys. It's just like
great on the ball, smart off the ball, versatile like
White is the least versatile of the of those three,
but is still just, I mean, maybe the best shot
blocking guard since Dwayne Wade. Like he has a ton
of contests at the rim of the defense that needs
it because they have one and a half centers. Yeah,
you've got White too, so I don't need to make
the case to you.
Speaker 1: We have the same second team ballot, except I had
Scotty first team and Bam second team, and you had
Scotty second team BAM first team. Just on the Scotti
knowe though, is he is the only player on any
of the all defense ballots that we both have that
ranks them both the top fifty of matchup difficulty and
positional versatility.
Speaker 3: A lot of the times those two don't where it's.
Speaker 1: Bam is so versatile, but you're not going to throw
him on the other team's best player, and that's what
I appreciate that you'll do with Scotty Barnes.
Speaker 3: He's also third.
Speaker 1: The other note I had that I didn't get to
third in the impact he's having in the league and
the influence on opponent shot quality.
Speaker 3: He's been great.
Speaker 1: I don't have anything to add with what you said
other than I think ogn Andobi would probably have a
first team case if he did more of the traditional
defense of playmaking stuff, but he has to cover up
if he's not on the best player like defending, like
because he can handle his own one on one. Maybe
not the best screen navigator, but can handle his own there.
But if he's not doing that, he kind of needs
to make sure that he's covering up for everything else,
like closer to the basket or just like on the
back line, and he just doesn't have the I don't
call it a luxury, but it's like because even Scotty
Mars has always had that luxury, but it's still able
to like make those defensive disrupted plays, have those counting stats,
those stocks. That's not really og Annoby's game, but he's
been and by the way the Knicks have been, I
think if you're looking at them to be a championship contender,
you could argue that that no, it's a disaster. But
they're not the defensive turn style that they're often made
out to be.
Speaker 3: It's like they and they should.
Speaker 2: They should be based on based on the guys at
the point of attack that they often have involved in
the air, like you you know, we praised Gobert for
like you gotta you gotta deal with making up for
Julius Randall and nas Reed and like the Vincenzo's pretty
overrated on the ball, and Edward's effort comes and goes
like making up for Jalen Brunson and Cat and Bridges
who mostly is good. But I don't know that's all.
That's a that's a heavy lift for OGI. So if
you're not getting a bunch of blocks and steels, like
I get it, Man, you're working pretty hard out there.
Speaker 3: Uh is there who are so? Oh so?
Speaker 1: My honorable mention My toughest cut was Donovan Klinging. He's
just like you mentioned the hole is anyone cut from
the Rudy Gobert cloth and it's kind of him.
Speaker 3: He's just going to be this dominant rim protector.
Speaker 1: He comes up in every single metric what like you're
just looking like he just shows up at the top
of mostly all of these defensive stats. He just doesn't
have I think when you're looking at like a Rudy Gobert,
obviously the a Wemby, even a Mobile, even a Scottie
Barnes or a Chet Holmgren, the deterrence.
Speaker 3: Factor isn't quite there just yet.
Speaker 1: But you know it's gonna be because people are eventually
gonna catch on to the fact that oh no, you
can't score with this guy around the basket. And so
he's been absolutely fantastic for Portland this year. And I
I think if we were making preseason all defense ballots
next year, like I'm probably gonna throw.
Speaker 3: Him on there.
Speaker 1: If I wanted to get really spicy, I would just
throw him top three in my Defensive Player of the
Year voting.
Speaker 2: Okay, I think you've just you've got a bold prediction
ready for next year. So we kind of did similar
things here. This is where I started to just throw
a lot of the guards and wings that I wanted
to acknowledge in the honorable mention section. So like Steph Castle,
you've got him to Chris Dunn, Dyson Daniels, Jaden McDaniels,
Cason Wallace, throw every other thunder winger guard down there that.
Speaker 3: You want to.
Speaker 2: Great at what they do. I just I think it's
fairly well established now that the impact overall of as
good as someone like Chris Dunn is at what he does,
it's real hard to argue that that's even in the
same category as what like Gobert does. To like, for
your unique defensive performance.
Speaker 1: You need to either be Derek White or like Chris
Dunn would have to play forty minutes a game probably.
Speaker 2: Right, there's that acpect, Yeah, yeah, the had Alex Cruzo
played enough games to qualify, it's the minutes for him too.
It's just you've got to hit some kind of threshold
to offset the just greater value of a big against
the small.
Speaker 1: I did want to ask you, though, when you're looking
at this from a so like moving away from the
bigs a little bit, when you're looking at the perimeter guys,
what do you value more? Is it the on ball
defense or what someone like a Derek White does.
Speaker 2: I would say that what someone like a Derek White
does is probably objectively more valuable. But I guess there's
there's no one criteria like event creation, like who's tipping passes,
who's getting steals? Just the aesthetics of like, you can't
dribble against this guy without taking on a high degree
of risk. I think that's true for Done in particular,
Wallace Castle, all these guys. So it's not I think
you can get suckered a little bit if you're just
looking at like like people used to think Collin Sexton
was a good defender because he was very intense on
the ball and he just smack. You can't you can't
look at that. There's got to be some White is White.
I think you're right to point out that White's a
little different than all these other guards we're talking about,
because they're maybe more disruptive, more athletic, more there's more
like wow moments that pop. But but like Castle's not
doing the super savvy. Oh he's the low man and
he's suddenly a great rim protector or like he's in
the right spot suddenly all the time. Like that's that's
a different type of that that that's really what approximates
more of what like a great big guy can do
is just like putting out fires all over the place.
It's really hard for a guard.
Speaker 1: To do that, and White stands out it's even hard
for a wing to. I don't know what you consider Scotti, NSR. Thompson,
but they're like the wings that can.
Speaker 3: Do that too.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean the Thompsons are the Thompsons are
like their own thing. I don't know what it's just
their athleticism is hard to sort of quantify. But but yeah,
if you're a true like a I've got like I
don't know Wallace really is. Wallace can guard up a
little bit, but like Done is a point guard defender
really like maybe some twos but like Castle can move
a lot. Yeah, they're really I guess maybe the true
takeaway is if you only guard point guards, like you're
not that impactful of a defender.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's even just like you run into the
problem where I think like if a jaw and Suggs
had qualified, I think he probably does enough, but it's
like on the margins there, then you want to take
us through a little until we're up to Rookie of
the Year.
Speaker 2: All right, another high the hive mind struck on this one,
but like this is the correct order. I feel like,
I don't you know unless you're living in Dallas, I guess.
So Rookie of the Year number one continental for me,
one of the best just the best rookie shooting season
we've seen and one of the best shooting seasons full stop.
Pretty cool that it happened in his first year as
a professional basketball player. Uh Cooper flag number two. I
don't know what this would have looked like if he'd
been just better positions to.
Speaker 3: To well, do you know where it feels.
Speaker 1: Difference came is I was actually he seemed more polished
on the offensive end, where it's just like the handle
looks better than people made. I didn't watch again, I
don't watch a ton of college or that, But with defensively,
it's I've seen people like, oh, the defensive playmaking or
event creation like you called it wasn't as high ended
as supposed to be. Like, well, look who he's playing
alongside and the defensive role they haven't played, like, that's
not the role that he's been in for most of
the season.
Speaker 3: So I do wonder.
Speaker 1: If I think a lot of people would say, well,
what if he didn't start the season having a run
point guard of having to be so important on offense.
Speaker 3: I kind of come away thinking like, what if he
was just.
Speaker 1: Allowed to always be in the like the defensive role
that he was born to be in.
Speaker 2: Or I mean split the difference, what if he's just
put in a just a a sensible role where you
can do some of the offensive stuff that we didn't
really know you had, and you can flash a little
bit of that, but you're not so overburdened, especially at
the beginning of the year, with playmaking and bringing the
ball up the floor and having to generate offense that like,
you can still make the defensive impact that everybody expected that.
Speaker 1: You can Scottie Barnes roll up. Like with Scotty Barnes's
role at both ends this year be.
Speaker 2: The I don't know, I don't. I mean, I think
it's it's it's it's a positive that he was really
stressed beyond any reasonable limit offensively and I mean you
can't say he objectively excelled, but certainly relative expectations. He
was so much better at doing stuff that he was
not like projected to be asked to do or expected
to be good at. I think that's just a win
because I don't think he like, I don't think suddenly
the all the defensive stuff and all the intangible stuff
is just like not there. I think it's you only
have so much energy, right, like you can't you can't
ask him to do everything on both ends. So I
think it's a good thing. I do just wonder would
he have won Rookie of the Year. Canipple has this
exact same year, but the flag is just like Canipples
in an optimal role for what he does. He's next
to LaMelo ball in an offense that has enough threats
around where he's not overburdened. I think he exceeded expectations
as a playmaker too. Certainly Cinnipple exceeded expectations at everything.
But I wonder if Flag had had a similarly like
favorable setup, if if he would have won it. Anyway,
I think it's possible. But this year by Canipple is
just like it's insane.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's been a better like it's a better
screener than like a better self starter, and like Cooper Flag,
most of his shots at the rim are going unassisted
and he's actually been pretty efficient on his self created shots.
Conniple has been more efficient and creates more shots at
more levels for himself, even though it's not the crux
of his game, like to be able to do that,
and I think he's probably been better, Like I just underestimated.
Oh he's six seven, and that's a dude that's just
not going to be readily attacked.
Speaker 3: Levin pleasantly surprised with that. VJ.
Speaker 1: Edgecomb is just a he has I don't know what
it is, but he has it, and it's I like,
flying in transition is fun. I appreciate a guard who
could be a lob threat as well. Just the fearlessness
with getting all three pointers. And I think he's done
a good job. He's been one of the least efficient
self creators in the league, but I think he's done
a good job toggling between all these different lineups that
Philly has thrown out where it's oh, you're either complimenting
Tyrese Maxey, oh you're slowing things down a little bit.
With Joelle Embiid in the fold, he's just found ways
to fit or fill in gaps or depending on what
role the Sixers need from him, and the other thing
that's just kind of it's not insane, but one of
the theories I had posed I think I asked Kayln Cooper
or Sampson Folke about this is whether rookies are just
getting better defensively than they used to be. He's been
good defensively, which is a like in his He's not
super huge, he's not even super strong. Yes, so for
him to be there actually and to not have it's
not like Philly has elite talent around him. Joel and
bid one doesn't play as much in two, isn't Joel
embiid of your At this point, this feels I think
some people will make a case for Flag over Canipple.
Speaker 3: I don't know, like this has to be the three.
Speaker 1: I don't think I could even make a case for
Dylan Harper to come in over Edgecomb, even if you
think no, Harper will be the better pro.
Speaker 2: I agree. I think that That's the other weird thing
about this is I still think Flag will be the
better pro than Cannipple, although it's this is an interesting
one because it's this is a bad comparison, but it's
a little bit like the Jada versus Pawllo thing. It's
it's bad, but hear me out. So, like, I think
Canipple is just locked in as he's gonna be great
at the role that he has. I don't feel like
they're ever gonna get to a point where Carnipple is
like your top offensive thread or your top defender. So
and I think Flag just is gonna be that probably,
So like his role is way harder to excel at,
but I think there's a chance he will, Whereas I'm
dead certain Canipple will excel at the role he's in.
So it's like which which do you value more? I
think probably you just it's it's pretty clearly flagged to me.
But to your point on Edgecomb, there's like, no, there's
no other rookie that played a major role slash starting
role for a halfway decent team like.
Speaker 1: This, Grant, they've been like a top five team for
sixty games.
Speaker 3: That's what I mean.
Speaker 2: I'm saying, like he his his lift was so much
heavier than like what we can just get to the
all rookie stuff. Like I think in some order we
both have we both have Harper. Who Yeah, I think
if you told me whose next ten years do you want?
Edgecombor Harper? I think I'm taking Harper and I would
have a conversation about him versus Kniple.
Speaker 1: To be honest, well, I was gonna ask that that
this has become one of the trendy talking points.
Speaker 3: I hadn't really given it much thought.
Speaker 1: But if you were the Spurs, knowing what you know now,
do you still take Dylan Harper?
Speaker 3: Do you take Canipple?
Speaker 1: And I think most people have said you still take
Harper because of.
Speaker 3: The long term play.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if that is what you're basing the decision off,
for sure, But knowing that you have Fox, Steph Castle,
Devin Vessel, if you put Canipple on the Spurs right now,
they are more likely to win a title in this
year or next season.
Speaker 3: I think that would be my guess.
Speaker 2: I think that's right, just just an absolute premium, premium
lights out shooter that can do other stuff. I mean,
if you're knocking the Spurs, it's that you're not sure
about Castle and Harper hitting their threes. And if you
have Canipple in place of Harper, it's just like him
out there with Champagnee and like you could put some
crazy spacing around Wimbin Yama. So I think you're right
about that, Harper, I see you. Harper's a lock. We
did differ and this was my toughest of anything on
the rookie ballot. You've got Ace Bailey, I've got Cedric Coward.
I'm yeah, I keep flip a coin. Honestly, what made
you go with Bailey? Did you have a strong feeling there?
Speaker 1: I thought he's I think he's actually been. So I
think one you get into I know this isn't everything,
but you get into the minutes played. And so Ace
Bailey at nineteen hundred minutes versus Cedric Coward at fifteen hundred,
So that's a big difference. Ace Bailey his role has
not actually been that hard for most of the year,
and I know he's below average efficiency, but the Jazz
have put the ball in his hands more and I've
just seen more, Like I've seen more flashes of more
where it's oh, look at what he's doing as a rebounder,
where Cedric Coward it's okay, like he can move off
the ball a little bit. He's hit his threes, but
not so much after the All Star Break he's been
in now the lineup though, we know what he could do. Defensively,
I think Ace Bailey's been the better defensive disruptor, Like
he can block, he could block a shot. I've seen more.
I guess I've seen Ace Bailey one. There's the volume,
but I've seen As Bailey cover more bases, even though
he hasn't been more efficient while doing so. And when
you get to that, when you factor in the sand
and then the fact that you can we've seen the
Jazz do it later in the year. Oh, you can
put the ball in his hands and ask him to create. Well,
that's not something centric Coward's going to do. When you
get when the margins are this, then I think it's
okay to say, who do you believe is going to
be the better, more impactful pro I do believe that's
going to be as Bailey, and so that that helped
decide it as well too.
Speaker 2: This is another one. I think you're probably right. It's
the same argument though, like Bailey, I think Coward has
so many ways to succeed. But I don't think Coward's
ever going to be more than your second or third
best player. Whereas Bailey, you can squint and be like,
that's a number two option at worst, and he maybe
gets so good that he's actually going to run a
lot of offense for are you Coward? I don't see
getting there, So Coward, I don't know. I just trust
the player type a little more. And I'm not totally
sure what Bailey's player type is yet, which you.
Speaker 1: Could make the case because if you start looking at
the Jazz next season, we're running into like a lower
end Nipple or Harper. For the Spurs debate, Coward might
be the better fit for Utah next year because the
things he does defensively when you look at who he's
expected to play with when it's gonna be Lowry, Jaron
Jackson Junior, Tesler, Kiante George. I don't know if you
want Ace Bailey like doing like shouldering that workload defensively
on the flip side, though you do seem like in
that lineup with those four, Okay, Kyanta George has the ball,
you probably want someone else, especially if he's gonna be
your day facto two who could do more with the
ball in his hands, like not just having Lowry or
Jaron Jackson Junior.
Speaker 3: That to me has already been Ace Bailey.
Speaker 1: And also, I keep coming back to this isn't necessarily
fair to Cedric Coward, but Ace Bailey checking so many
boxes where I thought that he was gonna go into
Utah his on ball share was gonna be through the roof,
and it was just no like he did for three
quarters of the season, like he was subsisting on all
the ancillary things and again not the most efficient player,
but his ability to do that, I was just like
I I didn't expect him to check so many of
those boxes, and so that's probably coloring my view.
Speaker 3: Two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do wonder too, I think ending up in
Utah was a better result for him than Washington. It
just seems like where he wanted to go, right, So, like,
I wonder what Bailey's season would have looked like in Washington,
where I think he would have I don't know that
that that that might be an interesting sliding doors moment.
Do you want to get to the second team here?
Obviously you've got Coward, I've got Bailey second team. Other
other than that, I think, oh no, we don't. We
do have one other difference. So I went with do
we have two?
Speaker 3: I'll have to fix something in post, but I have Chet.
Speaker 2: How old do you think Chet Holmgren is?
Speaker 1: This was honestly one of I think, just an all
time great rookie. Who's the last rookie that just finished
top two in defensive players?
Speaker 2: Pretty I mean pretty impressive. Yeah, so I'll go through mine.
I got Colin Murray, Boyles, Derek Queen, Maxim right now,
and I got Jago Joeman as my fifth. Not an
easy inclusion there. The others were like, I mean, this
is this is not a great second team crop all
to say, I don't love a whole lot of it.
But you had se On James instead of Joeman, which
I get. I guess Joelemen I may be pricing in
a little more like he's someone that if if he
if he hits, I think has a more valuable role
than James, who's for sure a really rugged, good defender
that seems to be able to shoot and can dribble
a little bit. Joeman. I think I think Joeman's gonna
shoot it great. I don't know about anything else, and
like the connective passing, but he did enough from deep
to me to at least like I'm still I'm still interested.
I'm still would like to be in the Aegor Joman
business up sidewise, where James is like a solid, more
known commodity. Not that that makes him the wrong pick.
I just kind of went the other way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think having close to what's going to be
a five hundred minute difference was a big deal for me.
But his him, his defensive like the workload he shoulders
on defense is through the roof. He's hit enough of
his threes for me and you could say, all right,
he doesn't dribble and my Yegor Joemen is the better passer.
But I think he'll get to a point where defenses
respect his jump shot so much that he will be
able to make stuff happen on his drives. That was
not happening this year, even when he had some more
open space on his drives, and so I went with
like kind of the more bankable he played, more contributed
to a winning team on a kid.
Speaker 2: He was on a team that didn't just throw it
away from day one.
Speaker 1: I also I thought about Ryan Kalkbrenner here was starting
for Charlotte a lot of the time this year. I
actually had Drake Powell on my longer list as well,
like as a broken guy. Joemen was of course on
there as well. We can't forget about chet Holmgrin either,
Will Riley, Will Richard Mohammed Diawara. Hugo Gonzales was really
good this year. Jeremiah Fears was kind of a tough cut.
He shot the three ball better post All Star Break.
But him and Garret Queen, I don't really know what
the plan is in New Orleans. I don't think he
was a fantastic passer, but I don't know what their
game plan is for either of those two at the time.
Speaker 2: I think Derek Queen does not work if he's never
gonna shoot it, and I'm not sure he's ever gonna
shoot it. All that none of the other stuff that
makes him interesting plays all that well. It's a little
the opposite of jentleman, where like if he's gonna be
that good a shooter from deep, it opens things up.
You don't have to be like Klay Thompson was not
a good driver, but the way that he had to
be guarded, like he could get past his guy pretty
easily a lot of the time. I mean, even Tyre's Halbert,
and I think the threat of his three doesn't have
elite quickness that that helps, Like Queen's a different position,
but if he's not a threat to make shots and
you can just ignore him, like how does any of
this work? So I and he's on my second team,
but I just have real I have more reservations about
his long term future than I do about Fears actually,
and all anyone talks about is how small guards are dead.
And I still am a little higher on Fears is
long term outlook than I am on Queen's.
Speaker 3: Where are you at with Maxime? Right?
Speaker 2: No, long term, I feel like there is literally no
way to know if anything he did matters this season,
Like I would say, big picture offense first centers, not
a great player type to be. I'm not convinced that
he's going to be part of a good defense. Ever,
I could be wrong. It's that's the thing. It's like
the environment in Sacramento this year was the coach like
maybe probably worst coach in the league, just terrible supporting
talent guys. I just like, I don't know what to
do with him. The numbers kind of are undeniable, I guess,
in so far as numbers can be undeniable for I.
Speaker 1: Mean, sixty on Tues when you're like one of the
least physical big right when it comes to like he's
just gonna get up a floater or.
Speaker 2: Shot rather than try to he has real talent, right,
we agree on that. I just I don't know how
to project any of them. Maybe that's maybe I'm that's
that shouldn't be relevant, you know, the whole Like I
don't know what he is, but I even can't judge
his rookie season because I think his situation is just
it doesn't reveal anything. They the Kings played the whole
season like it was the last week of the year
and they were taking you know what I mean, Like,
there's just there's no way to know.
Speaker 1: I think Colin Murray Boyles is gonna get all left
off a lot of all rookie teams because of the minutes.
But I think he hit more of his threes than
you would have thought while dealing with a hand injury.
And he was borderline like part of a dominant defensive
front court with Scottie Barnes when those two were on
the floor together. So he was actually an auto inclusion
for me. But I think that because what did he
end up with with minutes play this year? Since he
he's done for the season, right, he's at eleven hundred,
eleven to fifty.
Speaker 3: That was more than I thought he'd be. That's enough.
Speaker 2: So for me, given the given the competition, that's enough.
Speaker 1: Hugan Zales probably could have made things more interested if
he crept into like that or you want of the
top fifteen most.
Speaker 3: Played rookies, But yeah, yeah, oh Will.
Speaker 1: I did want to shout out Will Riley. I know
he has like the ultimate license in Washington. I love
watching Will Riley. I see like a little bit of
Keijan George in him. But he's gonna I think he'll
be worse defensively, but he can do some pretty daring
stuff on the offensive end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's an interesting player. I do think there's a
really good chance that several guys on our third non
existent third team just vault past a lot of guys
we actually had make first and second team, maybe not
first team past second team, just because I think Gonzalez
is a perfect example. Like he was on a good team,
so he just didn't get to play that much. If
he's on a terrible team, are we talking?
Speaker 3: Are we like?
Speaker 2: Is he in all defense?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: I don't know. There's just there's a lot of weird
team situations to judge.
Speaker 1: I think we're on to most improved player. What's your
ballot look like?
Speaker 3: Boy on this one?
Speaker 2: So my ballot is probably gonna I don't know. I
have Danny Avdia one. I'll make the case even though
there's a good chance he does not qualify for this
because he'll fall a game short. The jump from a
very good player to All star slash like fringe all
NBA first option, offensive creator, playmaker, it's that's massive. He
hinted at this a little bit last year, but he
came into this season you know, knock it if you want.
His foul drawing craft was just at another level. The
drive game was among the best in the league. Like
these are just different elevated skills that he didn't really
have or show consistently, and they turned him into one
of the best offensive you know players in the league,
and he didn't have any shooting help around him for
the vast majority of the year. I just think I
get it if if you think, because I did this
with Jalen Johnson a little bit, if you thought like
he kind of did this last year towards the end,
So is this really an improvement, I'm receptive to that.
I just think the jump he made is massive. I
have Alexander Walker second, who similar leap. I actually had
a couple numbers here that were like I actually like
had to chuckle when I put him together. He hold on,
let me find him, well, Vamp, I don't know, Maybe
I'll find him while you were talking later. But Alexander
Walker went from like a good reserve to a high
end starter that contributes on both ends. And then Jalen
Duran like, damn your doublet scoring average, he's my third
and figured out how to score by himself by driving
the basketball, which he could not do before. I don't think.
I don't think you can have a bout without Jalen.
Speaker 3: Duran on it.
Speaker 2: But he didn't win either of ours. So you have
one guy different than me, which again I respect.
Speaker 1: So I had jailed during number two for basically all
the reasons that you mentioned. I mean, the really big
deal is the number I've written down here. So he's
shooting seventy one point two percent at the rim this
year without Kate Cunningham on the floor. That's over six
percentage points better than where he was last year without
Kate Cunningham. He's hitting more of his short mid rangers
without Kate Cunningham on the floor, and all those looks,
they're going more unassistant than they are without Kate on
the floor. Some of the offense is actually like the
lineup's been fined eighty fourth percentile. When Duran plays without
kid Now the half court is pretty inefficient. But to
even be able to be part of that tringing to
end possessions or help your team get out in transition,
or be a big that can run the floor, that matters.
I have naw winning it. I just you mentioned it,
he goes from like a very good player to a
high level starter when you start to look at the
like the change in his usage more unassisted buckets he
was top six and unassisted rim attempts per seventy five possessions.
He's drawing more fouls. The two things that stood out
to me is so year over year true usage change,
So again we're factoring in scoring possessions plus playmaking, top
fifteen in true usage change. He was also eighth grant
in the increase of the opponent matchup difficulty guarding him.
Speaker 3: I like your Yeah, year, that's a great say.
Speaker 2: So the defense just took him much more seriously than
he used to. Plus he started so he was seeing
first unit defeners too, So.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that accounts for a lot of it too.
But like eighth in the entire league as kind of
a jump. And then the other thing was the Hawks
offense is still sort of imperfect. I'm at a point
where I trust their defense more than their offense just
because they have to get too creative in the half
court seventieth percentile when he.
Speaker 3: Played without Trey or Jalen Johnson.
Speaker 1: So when either like both those guys off the floor,
you're still in the seventy percent tile. I don't want
to like dig the knife deeper here, but what are
we saying about.
Speaker 3: The Timberwolves right now?
Speaker 1: If they don't like this is because he's on the Hawks,
which needed a bigger boost to begin with. The Timberlves
were just in the conference finals. I'm not saying he
would have turned into a twenty points per game scorer
in Minnesota, but like this is the type like he
he is, the get over the hump player, whether it's
for Minnesota or another team. He's immediately on I don't know,
one of the ten best contracts in the NBA the
mid level for the next three years. So he's my
most improved guy. I have Ryan Rollins third. This is
where I struggle with and what I think. I think
one Ryan Rollins deserves it, and I think he played
enough minutes last year for me to say, hey, he's
not working off this low base nine. He's shooting almost
forty percent on step back threes. He's driving against tougher defenders.
And here are the players with as many points and
assists out of drives this year, SGA, harden Kid and Afdia.
So he's been a huge part of what the Bucks
are doing, but it did get me. With some of
the other names that I thought about, Donnish Jenkins got
Colin Gillespie are probably the most popular ones that'll come
up for most improved. Not only do I throw out
like I'm not it's gonna take. The bar needs to
be pretty high for me to consider a sophomore everone
only just won't consider them. But I view most improved
as you have a pretty meaningful sample already and you
already played a meaningful role and got better to whereas
someone like a Colin Gillespie or a Donnish jan like
to throw someone into that is that's a breakout player
of the year to me, rather than the most improved.
I think like a gnaw A durn A, Denny Avdya,
who I just feel like most of his improvement came
last season for me, for like sixty games or whatever.
But I think that's more in the spirit. Even even
if I know they remember the case of Steph Curry
is actually the most improved player, I actually think that
that's a stronger case of Superstar who went to unanimous
MVP as a more compelling most improved player case to me, then, yeah,
look at this player who was working off this like
don Van Klington would be a good example as a sophomore,
but that's a bad example because it is a sophomore.
I find those cases more compelling, though, No, I think
I agree with you.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's sometimes easier though, Like just to take
Rolins who scores six a game last year to seventeen
this year and two assists a five and a half
and now he's shooting forty one percent, like that can
feel like a bigger improvement than say Avdia, whose numbers
I did find. I'll just throw him out there now
like you got a lot of them. I have a
couple just like that jumped out to me and making
his case usage rate went from twenty three to twenty
nine percent. That's a meaningful jump because the thirty percent
usage is like the magic number of oh, you're doing everything.
He's right there. He came off the bench eighteen times
last year. I forgot about this. Tony Ovdia was not
a guaranteed starter all of last year.
Speaker 1: Well, now we have to do that. Neither is good Henderson, though,
so when you kind of.
Speaker 2: Factor in the price, but I'm just saying, like I'm
trying to push back a little bit, even though I
made it myself against the argument that well Avdia showed
down the stretch last year that he could do something
like this, It's like, yeah, but he also there were,
like he there were points where we weren't one hundred
percent sure. The Bub Carrington draft pick trade wasn't like
a win win, and now it's just like, yeah, you
gave up the guy on the best contract in the
league for basically nothing. The other so the gnaw stuff. Also,
first time Alexander Walker's been a full time starter is
this year his usage went from sixteen to twenty four.
He's cut his turnovers despite the increased usage, highest free
throw rate. Ever, there's like, I don't know, twenty five
guys in the entire league averaging twenty on sixty percent
true shooting. He's certainly the only one in the most
improved conversation, So that's a new thing for him. Yes,
do you want to talk about the I'm sorry I
got diverted myself from I agree with you that it's
harder to gauge the guys that went from are you
an NBA player to oh, yeah, you are, and maybe
you're a starter.
Speaker 3: Namey as katea cool.
Speaker 1: I just don't feel like that's in the spirit of
most improved.
Speaker 2: How do we differentiate Jalen Johnson and Danny Avdia. You
don't have either of them on your top three, but
I assume you've got both kind of his down ballot thoughts.
What do we do because their leaps have been similar,
the difference would be that Johnson is doing it for
a much better team. I just I'm hoping you can.
Do you want to talk about that at all? Did
you have any thoughts of Johnson versus Ovdia or do
you not view them the same way like I do?
Speaker 1: I know he didn't qualify in all these years, but
I found it funny that Jalen Johnson this would be
like the third year that he could make a most
improved player? Right?
Speaker 2: So does that mean that is that an argument that like, well,
he's not a consideration because he kind of just has
been roughly.
Speaker 1: I don't know for him and Avia they weren't they
were they would be more down ballot guys for me,
because I don't I think that their most pronounced leaps
came last year and it just so like, and it
came for a long enough like. It's similar to the
Rollins logic of I think he can belong in the
most improved player discussion because he gave us enough of
a sample size last year and then improved off of that,
Whereas I still think the most material part of the
Jalen Johnson and Denny Aavia leaps have already happened. What
we're seeing is more of a scale up from volume
rather than you know, Ryan Rollins was not hitting some
of the shots last year that he was hitting this year.
Not the Alexander Walker's entire role kind of just shifted here,
like ditto for for Duran.
Speaker 2: If Keante George qualifies, where is he on your ballot?
Speaker 1: He probably he's in the top three. He's definitely above Rollins.
I don't know where he finishes next to Turn and
he might be one.
Speaker 2: He might be one. Just he's one where I think
he was. I don't know. We probably regarded him as
like that guy's a bad player, Like he's not helpful player, right,
and now he's He looked so good before getting hurt
that the Jazz traded for Jaron Jackson Junior because they're
ready to win, largely because they have their point guard.
So like, that's I mean, the numbers are what they are,
the foul drawing, the efficiency went up. Still a bad defender,
but just to go from I think this guy's hurtful
to he's like, he's the reason we're pivoting our whole
franchise towards winning. He's a reason. That's a pretty big jump.
I think he might have been one on my ball.
Speaker 1: He's one of the most fascinating rookie extension candidates for me.
This often, I don't even know if he gets one,
because what is the You're going off one season if
you're Utah of this guy's impacting quality basketball, let's say
that quality offense. But also if you're him, it's like,
why are you accepting less than what Dyson Daniels got.
Speaker 2: It feels like one where they're going to be a
deal that makes sense for George makes no sense for
the Jazz and vice versa. So they're just going to
restrictive free agency they have to.
Speaker 1: Most of it proves always tough, though, did you have
anybody else that you considered, whether it be the so
A j Mitchell.
Speaker 2: Doesn't qualify either, right, because he's fallen short of the
game's played. He's a second year guy. He's not on
your ballot. I get it. Anybody else, Cata, we talked
about Jalen Tyson. That's another second year guy. I think
that's it. You mentioned Jenkins. I think we've covered it.
Speaker 3: Dope. Let's head over to six man of the year.
What's your ballot look like, sir?
Speaker 2: Uh So? I have Mitchell here number one. I think
it's not quite right to say that this guy ran
the offense when Shay wasn't on the floor, but it's
also not totally wrong, like there were long stretches where
he was really tasked with a major playmaking role on
a team who if they have a weakness that's still
it is the generating offense without Shay, and with Jada
missing so much time too, that doesn't help either. So
I gave it to him. I have readed Shepherd two,
and I have Isaiah Stewart third. I toy with putting
him way higher earlier this year and then backed off
of it, so I'm kind of over correcting. The numbers
really aren't there for him like they might be for
some others. But I just think his his impact as
a rim protector, as a defender, as like a tone setter,
as all that stuff for the Pistons. Like everything we
love so much about the Pistons that isn't kid Cunningham.
I think you can trace a lot of it to
Stuart and his influence and his defensive impact. So I
gave him a third third place nod there. I don't know.
I don't have your number one on my top three.
So maybe make that case.
Speaker 1: Uh no, how about that. I'm not just gonna do
it because told me to.
Speaker 2: I have to read Shepherd. Who are you?
Speaker 3: What do you?
Speaker 2: What do you truly believe in? If read Shepherd's not
your number.
Speaker 1: Start, you know what he's And this is part of
his case, that was he ended up starting too many
games for me. But that's part of the six Man
of the Year case is that, oh he was good
enough to start and should have been all along. But
I look at Haim Hawkes, who's the guy off the
bench that is though, like they actually want you running
their entire offense.
Speaker 3: The driving is insane.
Speaker 1: He's in the ninety eight percentile this year of self
created shot making. He's been probably a little bit better
defensively he's so he's become so critical to just how
the Heat are running their offense. I don't know that
they're even more so than a reed shepherd who you
bring him in the game and he's still just this
vessel through which you give the ball to Kevin Durant
most of the time. And Aj Mitchell plays off the
ball or reed sheepherd plays off the ball, where taimay
Hawk is what if you're playing them off the ball
or you probably have some issues there. He doesn't have value, right,
that might be an argument against him, but comes in
and his numbers are insane, shooting over fifty percent on
his drives, averaging over fifteen points per game off the bench,
and just the running the on ball share of the offense.
I wish he was a better three point shooter or
even a more willing three point shooter when you're looking at.
Speaker 3: The actual volume.
Speaker 1: Feels like he's someone when you watch him, I do
wonder why he doesn't play or excuse me, he doesn't
draw more fouls, but just as a passer on the
move or someone who could in different ways, just even
out of drives, if you want to run some stuff
for him at the elbows or you need him to
get out and transition. I I like, I didn't get
like he wasn't someone that I feel like I gave
enough credence to him really until I really sat down
and started thinking about this award, because if I would
have went off cuff, it would have been something like, oh,
what about Keldon Johnson? What about Tim Hardaway Junior? And
I think nas Reed for sure. I also like to
factor in and I think this is you know, with
aj Mitchell, given how the thunder injuries were with Reed Shepherd,
we know he closes games in Houston.
Speaker 3: Like Kimi Hawkins Junior.
Speaker 1: Is he's a sixth Man of the Year who's also
a legitimate closing candidate. You're not gonna get that with
a lot of the other candidates. So where Tim Hardaway Junior? Okay, yeah,
in some lineups, but most of the time, if Denver's
healthy there, it's not going to be a discussion.
Speaker 3: You're gonna want to default to your core five rights.
Speaker 2: It's like, it's not ideal that Tim Hardaway would close
a game for you if you're Denver. It's it's because
like something you're not whole, or something's gone wrong, right,
are there any other I have I think you mentioned
he mentioned Keldon Johnson. He was Hawkes was a consideration
for me. There is one Quentin Grimes is gonna run
away with minutes played off the bench, so like there's
a volume component there. I think I think he's gotten
written off a little bit just because he's not the
guy that he was down the stretch last year for
the sixers. That was just he was over his head
and that was a weird role for him. But in
terms of like volume impact, he's he's got a case
over against just about anybody. Didn't make my ballot, But
did he Did you consider him or anybody else that
we haven't touched on yet?
Speaker 3: Yes, I did give him some consideration. I also considered
Cam Spencer.
Speaker 1: Uh, Anthony Black ended up starting, and just like he
was on track to start in too many games, he
ended up at forty so he definitely would have cleared
the halfway threshold.
Speaker 3: Uh, that's really about it. Though.
Speaker 1: I think when it came to the Quentin Crimes that
that was a good call out there. But yeah, Cam
Johnson was probably the one that I could, like, I
considered really throwing him into the top three of my ballot.
Cam Spencer, Kemp Johnson is not on any of our ballots.
I apologize Cam Spencer and Memphis. It has been really
good this year. You said, that's it on your honorable mention.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have any other strong considerations. Clutch Player
of the Year who cares? Oh sorry, did I just
say that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a stupid award. Why are we like,
there's replace this with comeback player, Replace this with I
don't know, make like a sportsmanship award, a bigger deal
and put it in.
Speaker 3: The real here for everyone watching or listening.
Speaker 1: Grant is so against this award that when I sent
him his ballot to fill out so I could make
the graphics for the podcast, he just didn't fill it out.
Speaker 3: He refuses didn't.
Speaker 2: So here's what really happened. So the result was I
didn't fill it out. But when I was filling out
the spreadsheet, I just I saw it happens to be
probably because it's alphabetical or something, but it's the next
thing after all NBA teams, and so I was like,
I'll come back to that because because I don't care,
and then I forgot to come back to it. So
this okay, I went with Shay one. Just okay. He's
maybe the best on ball closer there is. He's going
to draw valts, he's going to score on you if
there's not really a good defense for him. He'll get
off the ball when he needs to. I had Brunson second,
and I had Anthony Edwards third. If you go look
up clutch scoring per game or per clutch, I don't know,
it's not really per game, per per five minutes, I
guess is what we'll call it. Since that's the definition
of clutch within five and last five minutes, those three
are all way up there, and though not top three
in order, but among the higher scorers in clutch time,
their efficiency is among the best. I'm not going to
pretend that I looked into this much more closely than that.
This is a dumb award. I hate it. It's stupid.
Speaker 1: I do think this is This is the award, though,
if you wanted to go off vibes or anecdotes, this
is the award that's made for it. And I think
SGA and Anthony Edwards, in addition to their statistic cases
both have that down on locks. So they re my
one and two respects and Shay is just I'm trying
to I'm thinking like Jokic of two years ago. I'm
trying to remember if another player where every shot down
the stretch I just assumed was going.
Speaker 3: He's reached that level. Remember how Steph was at one
point too. I talked about VJ.
Speaker 1: Edgecomb here, he's like tied for I think he's like
fifth in made three because there's a four way tie
for first. He's just like fifth in made three pointers.
Speaker 3: In the clutch.
Speaker 1: But that just feels a little disingenuous because Tyres Maxie,
if he's gonna be on the floor, Lamal Murray's shot
making him the clutch has been insane. But I know
you said it's not about the statistics, but Denver's five
hundred in crunch time and they've lost the minutes that
he's been on the court, and so that just felt
like I couldn't do it. Jaylen Crunston has the statistical advoltage.
Speaker 2: That's why this is a stupid award, because this award
tells you that Jamal Murray's a bad clutch player, and
it's like, oh no, Denver, because Denver routinely gives that
guy the last shots of games it wants to win,
So like, what are we talking about?
Speaker 1: Wait, so if you don't make an MVP ballot, that's
saying you're a bad player just because you didn't make
clutch player.
Speaker 3: That we I mean, you're a bad clutch player.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's you know, it's weird how some guys
are clutched some years and then not the next year.
It's almost like the information we use for this award
is like small and subject to vagaries, and it's like,
I just don't who likes this? Like how old is
this award? Is this like five years old? Now? Is
it more than that? I think it's so many, so
many more interesting things to give away.
Speaker 1: Well, so I will say, by the way VJ edgecom
this is a team thing, but second in crunch time
plus minus.
Speaker 2: Just he don't see him on your ballot, Dan, that's
I'm here a lot of nice things. I don't see
him on your ballot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a bad clutch player.
Speaker 1: That's why, Like you said, I to your point, though
I don't mind the existence of the award, do I
necessarily want to fill out another ballot and talk about it?
Speaker 3: I hear myself talk a lot I do a lot
for a living, but so maybe not.
Speaker 1: But where do you boil down to when people use
these clutch moments or these snapshots of heroics in the
m v P discourse towards oh Shay ended the MVP debate.
Speaker 2: Well, I want to say, wasn't there a case where,
like maybe during Russell Westbrook's MVP season where he had
I don't know if cloys player existed then, but he
won them a bunch of games late, right.
Speaker 3: And it was there. Do you remember the shot?
Speaker 1: The photo is tattooed to memory like the actual still shot.
Speaker 3: It was him in Denver.
Speaker 1: I think hit a game winner or maybe they were
an okay, see when he hit the game winner. But
that was the night that everybody decided Russell Westbrook was
gonna win the MVP, and it felt like didn't Shay
have that? It might have been against Denver that but
Shay had one of those moments too, And I think
it was against Denver because it was the the MVP.
Speaker 2: The two threes, the three to tie. Yeah, he put
he put him away by himself. So I guess, like
here the real problem with clutch being based on tiny
samples that it's not predictive that like, that's inherently the
issue with with small sample stats. You'd like in the
Westbrook example, though, like he really did win those games.
Now you could say, like, well, if he'd hit two
more shots in the second quarter, it wouldn't have been
a position to have to win the game. So like
that falls apart a little bit too under some scrutiny.
But those wins counted, and so maybe if you're breaking
ties for other awards, maybe you consider, like, yeah, no,
Shay's three really did add a win to the Ledger.
The point is winning, so that should count for something.
Speaker 1: I just like, so, I'm sorry, moments that ken in
your mind shift in MVP debate aren't worth discussing as
their own awards can.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing, I am trying to make the case
for this mattering and I'm doing a bad job of
it because I don't believe it.
Speaker 1: I like, I don't name who is Can you name
all the Clutch Player of the Year winners?
Speaker 2: So this is the best question you've ever asked me.
Uh so Jokic must have won it, right? You never
won it?
Speaker 3: Gonna look it up now because I don't remember.
Speaker 2: Often I think dearon Fox won it. I definitely remember talking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been three. This is the fourth iteration of
the award.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you have been.
Speaker 3: Three winners and you have not named a single one
of them.
Speaker 1: Yet Fox didn't win it, did Jalen bro Fox won it? Sorry,
that's the first one. Brunton won last year. That's two
is Stephen there and he's the third one.
Speaker 2: All right, Hey, so listening, I know all about clutch
player the year.
Speaker 1: I already got brunt in Fox. I don't know if
I remember. I'm sure he was probably. I probably picked
him to win it, but I don't know if twenty four.
Speaker 2: All right, that's enough on this stupid award. Let's move
to one.
Speaker 1: That I spent a little bit more time on. This
is everyone's real favorite coach of the year. Who's your ballot,
Joe Missoula.
Speaker 2: I just don't think the Celtics are what they are
if they're not wired real tight competitively and strategically. And
I think that just is the coach. There's other factors.
But like we thought, we missed there over under by
so much. They were supposed to be so bad and
it's not like you know, they they didn't trade for
anybody great to like throw the predictions off. They just
got an awesome year from Jalen Brown and everybody else
played well, so I'm giving it to him. I've got
Charles Lee second. I don't know how the Hornets became
a good defensive team, so I'm just giving him credit
for that over a large chunk of the year. And
then Dagnault is third. For me, let's not overthink it,
Like the thunder still just are gonna win more games
than anybody this year. They've had a bunch of injuries
and they've figured it out. So I like to throw
one established, really good coach in there into an award
that tends to reward guys that are young and like
turn teams around and stuff. I don't like to forget
about the dag Naults and the Spolstras and all that stuff. Yeah,
because it feels like the winner of this is the
who exceeded expectations award A lot of the time we picked.
We both picked Missoula pretty clearly it is.
Speaker 1: But it's more interesting when a coach who he's not new.
This isn't Joe Mizuoll's first or second year. Now you
have the try he's won a championship, but Joe Mizooll
was one for me. I jored not a number two,
so I fall to the trope. But the Suns, speaking
of they were supposed to be bad, and I don't
know that you looked at the personnel on this roster
and thought they're gonna be a hillacious defensive team. I
probably thought Jayalen Green was gonna play more, but still
that didn't think he would.
Speaker 3: Be hurt for so long.
Speaker 1: And like there's a culture there now we talk about
things maybe going rotten in Houston, they had gone rotten
in Phoenix. I don't know what the common denominator there is,
but they had gone rotten in Phoenix.
Speaker 3: Well that will never know.
Speaker 2: It's a mystery.
Speaker 3: So and then I have Mark dagnel three as well.
He's a tactical genius.
Speaker 1: And also when you look at the value the thunder
loss to injury just by virtue of Hartenstein missing games,
j Dub missing so many games and like being able.
The other thing that he's the reason caseon Wallace or
even an aj Mitchell exists is they've been able to
find minutes for these guys while they're still winning, Like
when they were quote unquote developing, and so his ability
to always do that is something of like even it's
with a J Will too, Like we don't know as
much about out these players. If Mark Deagdelt isn't finding
ways to get them and then I know a lot
of it is the thunder just beat opponents by a
trillion points.
Speaker 3: But that's not that's not all of it.
Speaker 1: AJ Mitchell and Case and Wallace before they were AJ Mitchell,
Case and Wallace got real stakes because of in part
because of injuries. But they just they found minutes for
those guys. And I think that's a really big deal.
Speaker 2: Pretty long list of other considerations, right, I should say
it was way up the list for me, Mick. Neither
of us has Mitch Johnson and the Spurs are gonna
win sixty whatever games, Like.
Speaker 1: Well, you just said Wemby is the primary driver of everything.
Speaker 2: I think that's part of it is it's like, yeah,
you know what, it is hard to figure out what
to do with Wemby on offense. I think I believe
that more months ago than I do now, because I
think you can get away with doing whatever you want.
Is it just because Wemby is that Is that why?
Because like you can take the player development case, you
could make a lot of the expectation defiance, like Johnson's
case is pretty good on a lot of the classic fronts.
Speaker 3: Is it kind of a did the le bronze coach
ever win Coach.
Speaker 2: Of the Year, like win one in Cleveland with him?
Did that happen like so early?
Speaker 1: If you're gonna win it with a player like that,
you gotta win it early in their career before everything
is still on our ballot. Because you could just attribute
it to Shay.
Speaker 2: Yeah you could. Yeah, No, I don't know who else.
I said Spolstra. A lot of people are gonna have JB.
Bickerstaff much higher than we do. What's what's your thinking there?
Is it that he's got less to do with it
than the personnel? Is that the nutshell?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean like he had I guess you could make
the case that the Pistons are way better than last
year without having overhauled the personnel. But it's like that
to me seems more about like like whose role that's
just shifted a ton?
Speaker 3: You're like it should it be.
Speaker 2: So hard to put together? I mean like you're playing
Thompson and Holland and Durham and like your.
Speaker 1: Space like, oh, let's let's run actions with Kate Cunningham
and Jail and Duran. I don't know if that's rocket so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know if it's fair to hold that.
I guess I am holding that against him a little
bit because it's like an extreme version of the Jamal
Moseley thing. It's like figure out an offense, guy, like
what are we doing? Like it's not nearly that to
that level, but it's like the defense. We love to
credit coaches for establishing a defensive culture. Like maybe at
runs into this at some point where the offense just
isn't quite as good as it should be and he
starts to like slip in our estimation. I hope that
doesn't happen, but it might.
Speaker 3: It'd be fun.
Speaker 1: I think someone just proposes that there should be like
a like there should be Coach of the Year and
then like an all coaching team, so you get to
pick five. But I guess we could just make our
ballots five deep. Jamal Mosley did not win coach, will
not be on that Coach to the Year ballot. Could
you is there a case for just looking at some
of the mid season turnarounds. If it's Tylo or more
so Quinn Snyder in Atlanta.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Snyder's one. I mean for Snyder, they came into
the year thinking they were gonna be one kind of
team and turned into a different one by trading Trey Young.
That's a pretty fundamental shift in how you play. Although,
like do you think maybe deep down Quinn Snyder was like,
oh good, now we can play properly without Trey Young.
We can actually do like real team stuff. That's fun.
Speaker 1: He reacted the way that Jason Kidd reacted when the
match traded Luca.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he got the he got the handcuffs
taken off, maybe is what he.
Speaker 3: Thought in terms of mid season.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, James Barrego, there was the report that
the Pelicans don't want him back.
Speaker 3: Were they again him bringing fears in? Derek Queen off
them like they've.
Speaker 1: Been a competitive team, Yeah, since he took over, So
he would deserve a shout. I'm trying to think there's
I had Charles Lee on my list. Obviously, where's Doc
Rivers' rank?
Speaker 2: For you? Hall of Famer Doc Rivers? You address him
by his proper title.
Speaker 3: Dark Aaryakovich.
Speaker 1: We were pretty high on the Rafters coming into the season,
but they've just been better while being imperfect than most
had them being.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a weird team. We should have a
coach who does the best with a weird team. I
think he would win.
Speaker 1: I think he wins that one, right, maybe Missoula does
he win that one too, but otherwise it's dark.
Speaker 3: Aaryakovic has to win that, like when you look at.
Speaker 1: The personnel that he Yeah, that's a tricky one and
just like him as the coach that's perfected the way
to use RJ.
Speaker 3: Barrett. One of the random developments right right, yep is this.
Speaker 1: I think this is the final ward before we get
to the meat and potatoes of this podcast, which is
the made up awards. But grant take us through our
Executive of the Year bad because it's the same.
Speaker 2: Damn thing show Auntie Salleh, who like has held this
down for all the entire season, basically like right since
the since the the Draft night trade. Obviously the Alexander Walker.
I guess it was technically a sign and trade, but
that acquisition ridiculous. You could stop there. I mean they
traded for an unprotected first rounder and they got the
guy that you said was the most improved player and
I said was number two. Pretty good, Uh, Brad Stevens,
Just like, how how do you keep a team? They
lost what sixty percent of their start? Like they just
lost everything and they were still good. And a lot
of that had to do with guys like Jordan Walsh
and new Go Gonzalez and Baylor Shierman and unheralded Nemius kDa,
like all these guys that either were drafted or acquired
with very little fanfare that ended up playing great.
Speaker 1: Like and look, this isn't all of it, but you
ducked the tax without trading a first round pick and
while still being on pace to win like fifty five games.
Speaker 2: And you made a bat you trade. Does he deserve
to fall off the list because of the Vuovitch trade?
I think some Celtics fans would say yes, but I wouldn't.
Sam Presty third, it's a little bit like Dagnall, Like
we just need to continue to acknowledge that, I mean
even really to a greater degree than with Dagnall, We
need to acknowledge Presty is just continuing to like the
Jared McCain trade just I mean, on its own.
Speaker 3: Is like there so high.
Speaker 1: They had too many guards and they sold high, which
is why they needed to sign campaign right.
Speaker 2: No, that that that by itself, I mean Mitchell sort
of is a feather in his cap.
Speaker 1: I think, well, the contract that they have Mitchell on
now is high.
Speaker 2: Total of nine million dollars for two years.
Speaker 1: And then even I don't know how much of a
like negotiation this was. But neither like Chet nor j
Dub got like the full on that it didn't It
ended up not mattering. But you put yourself in a
position that, like for Chet, specifically him not having the
escalator language ends up mattering to the Thunder's finances because
he's probably gonna make I'd be pretty shocked. Actually, if
Chet doesn't make an All NBA team, we both you
had him, second, I had him third, I think or.
Speaker 2: He'll he'll make him he's got to. Yeah, no, that's
a good call. Anybody else. So we haven't taught I
mean this you could kind of grab from wherever if
you really wanted to, like you might just go I
don't just look at the standings and be like, Okay,
this guy put together a team that's third in the
East or whatever. So I guess we're we're gonna honor
the Knicks.
Speaker 3: Oh, by the.
Speaker 1: Way, part of Auntie Salah's case is like, so we
liked it at the Christops porzingis trade when it happened,
it doesn't pan outse then you move him and get
Jonathan Kmenko, who's just been balling, And now you roll
over that salary slot into a younger player.
Speaker 2: Yeah, who would have way more I probably has more
trade value than Porzingius who anybody else? I don't know.
I don't know. We can move on probably.
Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna say, I'm trying to think of No,
I wouldn't put them there, Charlotte.
Speaker 3: Nothing's happening.
Speaker 1: They did over like Canipple getting Like, drafting Canipple wasn't
a no brainer, right. Dylan Harper was the no was
the no brainer pick, as was Cooper Flag and.
Speaker 2: All their rookie like like Calprinner and James like, that's
a pretty darn good drafty they I mean, Canipple by
himself is you sort of are one of the biggest winners.
But yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.
Speaker 1: Where do you land on Miami, got Norman Powell been
up and down? That was like that was a highway
robbery of a trade for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe earlier in the season, when I couldn't
shut up about it, maybe I would have given more
credit for like green lighting the offensive changes. But ultimately,
you know, the heater number number ten in the East,
so big.
Speaker 3: Deals obvious one Brian Gregory and Phoenix Georgia right higher.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Kevin Durant trades working out for the Malawatch
has shown some things later in the year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think that's what that's fair trying.
Speaker 3: What about the Clippers? That Beal trade was awful?
Speaker 1: So you swap Norman Powell for Beale and John Collins
essentially that doesn't work out.
Speaker 3: But then go ahead.
Speaker 2: If I agree with you, Does that mean I'm also
gonna be shielded for many aspiration related punishments?
Speaker 1: Is that looks like the tenor of that Baxter Holmes
piece was just nothing. It doesn't seem like anything's really
gonna come up this. Uh did you read the ESPN
piece that Baxter Holmes had on the investigation the latest?
Speaker 2: Well, I what I did see was the recent sort
of like counter arguments that are leaking where it's like no, no, no,
it was Aspiration wanted to buddy up to Steve Balmer
and the Clippers, and so he initiated all this stuff
and whatever is illegal going on with Kawhi was coming
from him because it just you know, he wanted to
ingratiate himself to billionaires because his company was going under.
Like sure, that's what the Clippers will say.
Speaker 1: My my biggest takeaway from that piece is the hilarity
of a like a company who's touting their carbon offset
green bank whatever is. They had bobbleheads made with their
name on it, and then the packaging their branding was
on it for the Clippers to give out of Kawhi
Leonard at their games and then ask them to neuter
it at the last minute because it was plastic and
that would have been been like a bad How did
you not think of that?
Speaker 3: And they couldn't.
Speaker 1: So they could remove the packaging, but they couldn't actually
remove the Aspiration logo from the lender.
Speaker 2: Bob just so did they just set them all on
fire and send the fumes into the into the atmosphere.
Speaker 1: I think that that might that might be their best
argument for innocence in all this is that the company
that's this massive and their entire business model we're going
to commission. We need ten thousand Kawhi plastic bobbleheads and
ultra plastic packaging made, and that's not going to be
a bad look when we put our branding all over.
Speaker 2: It is incompetence.
Speaker 3: I think that's it. There. Are you ready to get
to some stat padding awards? Grant?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so.
Speaker 1: I will take us through our first category, which is
when we bring it up here, Grant, which NBA players
are you teaming up with during a zombie apocalypse?
Speaker 2: Number one with a bullet and I would take him
over any other two healthier or not. I should put
out there is Steven Adams. I do not think zombies
approach you if Steven Adams is nearby, because even they
understand what they would be in for. I imagine him
to be resourceful. He runs a dairy farm in New Zealand,
so he's comfortable out there. If the societal food supply collapses,
he's gonna You're gonna be okay with him. And then obviously,
like I said, the brute strength, like there's you're You're good,
You have a bodyguard and a provider. It's all you need.
And he seems like a chill dude. You'd probably be
great to talk to if you've got limited options for that.
Bruce Brown's a distant second, and that's just because he
wears cowboy hats and he looks like Woody Harrelson from
Zombie Land and he made it quite a while in
that movie. So pretty easy choices.
Speaker 1: I would nominate LaMelo Ball, who has let's just go
through this year, think about really think about a zombie apocalypse.
LaMelo Ball has a hummer that's wrapped like a tank
and does not observe the rules of the road. Now,
so if I need someone to just run down the
zombies and create a badley, I'm going to team up
with LaMelo Ball and trying and get in that hummer, assuming,
of course, that Steven Adams is not available.
Speaker 3: So Lamel Ball's my pick.
Speaker 2: There, He's off the board. He's the number one pick. Easy,
all right. I got an award for you, Dan, which
star this year made the biggest sacrifice?
Speaker 1: I think it was Scottie Barnes because you look at
the on like his decline in the on Ball share
of the offense was just so stark, so he had
to be more of a play finisher but still had
to playmaking element there. And then he does all this
where not that he would ever pout, but it's, oh,
he's just gonna be one of the five or ten
best defenders in the game while seeing his offensive role,
like you're shifting more of the volume to a brandon.
Speaker 3: Ingram or to an RJ. Barrener and Emmanuel quickly.
Speaker 1: I think he made I think he made a ton
of concessions this season and what's better for both him
and the Raptors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was torn here. I think I'm gonna go
Lebron James. I know that's a you know, oh you're
picking Lebron for some more congratulations. He really did just
kind of change the way he was playing mid stream.
It just it was clear he should be the third
highest usage guy. He embraced that. And that's how many
superstars or former superstars do we see It just kind
of doesn't happen like Russell Westbrook's still trying to win
MVP like that. That's that's a tough thing to do
for a player at his level. Cooper Flag is like
a dark horse pick because that dude just was okay
running point guard on a team with no spacing for
a good chunk of the year and didn't complain about it.
That was not the best way for him to succeed.
It might ultimately help him in the long run, but like,
he was asked to do something real, tough that was
not in his skill set or at least not his
build skill set, and he did it. He did it
as well as you could have expected. So tough one
for him, but he handled it.
Speaker 1: He could also probably make a case for Zion with
the way they used him on offense this year, but
I don't even know if that was deliberate, so he might.
Speaker 3: Be a bad pick.
Speaker 1: Anything deliberate there, Grant, who is your sophomore of the Year.
Speaker 2: I think it's Steph Castle. The shot is still a question,
but he's shooting it more willingly, it's going in a
little more. Has become a lights out defender, and I
just he did this as a rookie. But his ability
to change games with physicality and just competitive intensity, he's
on a you know, he's like a top five percent
guy in that regard. I think so he's been He
was rookie of the year and not a great class,
but he just I think he looks even better.
Speaker 1: Now, validating that pick for sure. I think another good
nominee would be Donovan Klingen has turned into just one
of the NBA's most dominant rim protectors, and he's also
his hands have gotten a little bit better on offense,
and now he's able to semi reliable stretched the floor
with his three point shooting. And so what if he
just ends up being Oh, hey, Rudy Gobert shoots threes.
Speaker 2: Now, that'd be fun. I think we would be remiss
in not shouting out Reed Shepherd, who still does not
have as large a role as UI or the collective
basketball watching public believes he should. It's just it's looking
a little closer to what it ought to ought to
this year with the shooting looks real, the defense and
the playmaking isn't where you'd like it to be. The
playmaking may get there, but I just think Read Shepherd
is sort of I think we can all calm down.
I think it's still gonna happen for Read Shepherd, and
that wasn't clear after last year.
Speaker 1: Keishawn George would also be a good shout out here.
Shouldered more of the scoring and playmaking burden for Washington
and aj Mitchell, of course, in Oklahoma City is another
sophomore that really stood out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, it's time for some mia culpas. I
guess here, Dan Dan who is the most egregious preseason
miss of yours?
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm going between I'm gonna let you decide.
Is it me putting Evan Mobley third on my preseas
he's an MVP ballot or Raffie al Stone third on
my Executive of the Year ballot?
Speaker 2: I mean I can respect the mobiley third on MVP.
The trajectory was headed. That's a little bit of a
hot take, little bold prediction wise, but not ridiculous. The
Stone one is aged pretty poorly because Kevin Durant. Acquiring
Kevin Durant was a big part of that, and the
price seemed fine. Seems like the Suns won that trade.
I don't know if if Durant's burner stuff just tanks
the Rockets and you've thrown a season away. Tough, look tough,
look tough. Not as tough as this, though. I picked
Jamal Mosley to win Coach of the Year, and that
was a hot take and he's gonna get fired. So
we went the complete opposite direction on that one. I
don't feel great about that. Even if he doesn't get fired.
I don't think there's a Coach of the Year in
his future. I did not. Secondly, I did not have
Conker Nipple on my Rookie of the Year short list,
and he's gonna win that award. So a couple of
pretty big misses there.
Speaker 3: That's I don't know which one is bigger.
Speaker 1: I guess because there's a Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey
that the Conkoin Nipple one. In the moments more more
just that the Jamal Moseley won. Everyone had the same question,
is he the right coach to maximize this team on offense?
So that's that One's a tough look. Grant, What are
some NBA players that you're still holding out hope for
after this season despite them having distressed value?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, uh, I would say I'll go with the
guy later on my list just because he fits the criteria.
Speaker 3: I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm not giving up on Keegan Murray, who had an
awful season, like productively injury wise, continued basically a four
year running decline of offensive value coming off that rookie.
He used to have the rookie record for mad threes.
Conkinimple broke that, but was a forty percent three point shooter.
Year number two looks like an excellent wing defender. Does
none of that last year, does even less of it
this year. The situation Sacramento wasso shit that I am
not willing to say Keegan Murray is a bust or
that contract extension he signed is just as they set
that money on fire. You got to get him on
a different team, and maybe that won't happen. But I
don't think you can just put all of this on him.
I think the situation is to blame, so I'm not
giving up on him. Also, smaller scale, not giving up
on my guy. Quinton Post didn't shoot it very well
this year, and that was his carrying skill as a rookie,
but a little better defensively, a little better with all
the other offensive stuff besides shooting threes. I think maybe
year three you see a little bit of everything come
together and he has a much much better year because
he looked if the three wasn't falling this year, it
was kind of like, why are you out there.
Speaker 1: I'm not giving up on Cody Williams. Showed some signs
to close the season. Looks a lot stronger. It can
be more physical on his drives, keeps the ball moving.
He's been better defensively than he was last year. Feels
like he could be a rotation wing on a really
good team. Jazz might be that really good team as
early as next season. I'm also still holding out hope
for Zaire Williams. He's doing it again, Grant he had
just enough of his threes. The off ball, defensive playmaking
was there. Maybe it's just sort of who else are
you going to latch onto?
Speaker 3: In Brooklyn? But I remain intrigued by him.
Speaker 1: And finally, Usman Jang has basically been a superstar since
arriving in the Milwaukee Bucks, and he's turned into just
we always named him as it looks like he has
feel for the game. And now he's in Milwaukee and
he's done a little bit of everything, especially on the
offensive end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, good, good picks. Uh, Dan, I'm gonna ask you
to tell me which players receive too much hate.
Speaker 1: Let's start here. I think Brandon Pajamski gets too much hate.
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's.
Speaker 1: Because Joe lacub decided that he was untouchable in trade
talks for a superstar. But this is someone who's, like,
to me, the quintessential gap filler, and he's not going
to be.
Speaker 3: He's never gonna be.
Speaker 1: The most athletic or the best shot creator. Overall, he's
a better shooter than we expected. He moves the ball,
he rebounds the hell out of the ball. He will
run the floor. I just think that this is a
really good player and that people are too disconnected from reality.
He was never supposed to be a superstar, and I
think that's hurt perception of what the value he's actually providing.
Speaker 2: You're wrong, he gets exactly the correct amount of hate.
You're probably right. I went a little different direction here.
Speaker 3: I got through.
Speaker 2: I think, okay, how about this. This is a little
bit like my Keegan Murray is not. I can't give
up on him. I think Paulo Benkaro is getting dumped
on a little bit too much. Had like a mini
renaissance after the All Star break where all the getting
to the basket numbers were trending in the right direction.
Everybody hates the long twos, everybody hates the shot diet.
His progress has stalled. He's not an MVP candidate. That
might have been another take you regret, is Paulo is
going to be an all NBA type guy. I think
I think we've just we've established it. Like the situation
in Orlando is not good. The offense, the ecosystem is
poorly run, the personnel isn't great. So in the event
Jamal Moseley is replaced by somebody else, I think we're
going to be right back where we were at the
beginning of this year, saying Okay, now, Paolo, I think
Paolo's I think it's not a problem with him. I
think it's the situation, the way he's being deployed. I
think that's a real possibility. And I'm not a Paolo guy.
I just think I think we've given up a little
too early on what he might be.
Speaker 1: Another player gets too much hate to me, Mihale Bridges.
Everyone's so focused on the Knicks giving up control over
a trillion first round picks to get him, and I
get that he's inconsistent, but you sort of have to
even when looking at his new contract, he's never going
to be a top fifty paid player in the NBA.
The inconsistencies are kind of just baked into this archetype
of a player, and mcale Bridges could still be the
third or fourth best guy on a contender.
Speaker 3: That's what he is.
Speaker 1: The problem is the Knicks gave up in trade assets
enough to proclaim that he needs to be the second
best player on a contender. I think that's where that
mega disconnect is happening.
Speaker 2: Can I try a hot take on you and say
that SGA I think maybe gets a little bit too
much hate. He's the poster boy for the the foul bating,
the use, the aggressive use of the off arm, all
that stuff. I just think there's a section of the NBA.
This is going to have to be a straw man
argument because I have to make the case, But like
there's too big of a section of the NBA fandom
that is just well, if he didn't have the if
he didn't get away with these things, he's not an MVP,
or he's not you know, he's he would be greatly diminished.
I go the other way, and it's like the ability
to exploit all these rules is available to literally everybody.
He's just don't penalize him for figuring it out, and
I guarantee you that when the rules change, he will
figure out a way to score just as effectively in
those new circumstances. I'm annoyed by the idea that he's
somehow a much lesser player if the rules are different.
I just I just think that's crazy. So I think
he is not maybe's properly appreciated. Maybe that's a better
way to put it, because of the you know, the
off arm stuff is annoying, but you know, sorry for
being the best of figuring out how to do that,
I guess, is what I'd say.
Speaker 3: Grant, Who's a player you were way too low on
during this season?
Speaker 2: Pretty easy start, Kiante George. Did not think he was
a helpful NBA player, and he might have been an
All Star if the Jazz had been a little better.
And he's a guy that is a cornerstone now and
Utah does not probably probably trade for Jaron Jackson if
George is not suddenly a cornerstone piece. So pretty far
off on him. Did not see the leap that he
made coming.
Speaker 1: I think I have to go with Anthony Black. I
did not see him having so much value as an
offensive player. Hitting his corner threes, has provided a bunch
of ball handling, and he's even improved on the defensive
end to where, oh, he's not just sort of the
off ball event creators you like to call him, like, no,
he will turn the water off of somebody when he's
guarding on the ball.
Speaker 2: I just have to throw Dylan Brooks in there. This
is like a fool me once. Shame on you, because
he goes to Houston changes kind of the dynamic of
that team. He now is in Phoenix and has changed it.
Like you can't just say it's it's only him, but
it's a couple stops in a row that have really
played very differently. And he's a twenty point scorer before
he got injured. And the shot that seems too hard,
but he made those shots and he was really valuable offensively.
He was someone much like the Grizzlies a couple of
years ago where I was just like, I'm not in
the Dylan Brooks business, and that was that's the wrong take.
I think he does help you win.
Speaker 1: Donovan Klingon just I was out on him entering the draft,
and I recognize that he was better during his rookie season,
comes in during his sophomore year, not always just better offensively,
he could stretch the floor a little bit, better, hands
around the basket, like we've said before, one of the
most dominant rim protectors in the game right now. This
is someone who I think could have has a case
to have made All Defense this season, which we believe
the Hes probably could make an All Defense team sometime
in the near future, which I did not have him
penciled in for.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: All right, Dan, give me a player that you were
too high on coming into this season.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go with Tarren Shannon Jr.
Speaker 1: I was not worried about the timber was losing Nikkeile
Alexander Walker, who might win Most Improved Player, because I thought.
Speaker 3: Arren Shannon Jr.
Speaker 1: Was ready, was gonna give you more rim pressure, be
a little bit even more of a physical defender, and
at least replicate some of the shooter didn't ever have
the same shiftiness on the ball. But I just thought
the Wolves are gonna be fine. I know he's been
injured a lot of this year, but he's basically not
even a Wolves rotation player. While Nikkeile Alexander Walker has
been a borderline All Star that's rough stuff.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go with Khalil where this is a lesson
that whatever the physical tools are, don't forget to ask
yourself the question does this guy understand what's happening out
there right now? And the answer for him has been
no a lot this season, and he driven his coach mad,
and so I that might be something you can't teach,
the like processing speed, the like being in the right
place stuff. And I overlooked that, and I just saw
the talent and that was a huge miss. I don't
know what his future is, but it is nowhere close
to as promising as I thought it was coming into
the year.
Speaker 1: I was also pretty wrong about Miles Turner. I had
talked myself into the Bucks understanding why the Bucks waived
and stretched Damian Loard to sign him. You need a
four spacing big alongside Giannis. It's a prerequisite that hasn't changed.
But I don't This has been Miles Turner's least impactful
defensive season to me in recent memory, and has not
provided nearly enough offensive value. And now you have him
on this contract for another three years. That's not only
costing you twenty plus million dollars a year for Miles Turner.
But it's the other twenty plus million dollars a year.
You haven't dead money for Damian Lillard. So all of
a sudden, he's this forty five million dollars a year
player who's providing mid level value at best.
Speaker 3: At the moment, I thought, I thought the Bucks were
going to be better over all.
Speaker 1: Johannis's injury were part of that, but Myles Turner under
achieving factors into a.
Speaker 2: Couple of quick ones. John Morant. I thought maybe it
was just the on court stuff would be fine. Uh,
and he'll certainly mature, and like the talent levels decreased
and the injuries have increased. It's just I just I
wanted to give him one more shot. He didn't deliver,
and Evan Mobley the uh, the trajectory did not continue
upward unabated. Uh not, He's not a bad player. It's
just kind of thought this was gonna be another mini
leap to he's just gonna be an MVP. Thought gonna
be a first team All NBA guy. Hasn't happened. Note
I'm gonna be wrong again because I'm I'm gonna put
them right back up there starting next year.
Speaker 1: I bet grant, who is a player whose team would
be better off without them?
Speaker 3: Who wins that award? I mean, the.
Speaker 2: Atlanta Hawks were better without Trey Jung? Does that count?
Do we start there? Is that too high profile? Kind
of unfair? I'm gonna say Cam Thomas uh and Benedict Matheren,
I'm just gonna throw my chuckers, don't. I think in
NBA roster builders, we have reached the point now where
you can't have the empty scoring two that doesn't defend
and can't figure out how to pass the ball, just
that player type. Everyone's lamenting small guards being useless now, sure,
but I think the highest scoring bench gunner guy. I
think we're good. I think we're good on those types
of players going forward.
Speaker 1: I mean, you did name all players whose teams got
rid of them too, So Kemp Thomas got jetted by
two teams.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's impressive.
Speaker 2: They've decided. I'm not I'm not choosing him. His team's
decided this award.
Speaker 1: I think the Hornets for reasons that actually have to
do if we're even looking at only the basketball. Miles
Bridges I think is like the biggest empty calories guy,
even more so than a zach Lavine type of player.
I don't think he does anything to drive winning. He's
kind of just there. The shot making isn't nearly enough
to justify the volume, and he is malleable on the
defensive end in the sense that he has the body
type to be moved around the positional spectrum. But he's
not someone whose impact are gonna feel a ton.
Speaker 3: This one's a little spicier.
Speaker 1: Some of the on off numbers will say different, and
just some of the moments will say different. The roster
itself will say differently because they don't have a ton
of other true fives. Yakub Pearl in Toronto. Maybe I'm
just too overwhelmed by the fact that they had extended
him again. But I don't think that that team is
ever unless you're gonna change what your perimeter rotation looks
like if you're trying to build around Scottie Barnes specifically,
I don't think Yakub Pearl is the ideal center to
have to eat up minutes there is again, as much
as he does, it's just greener. As high IQ as
he might be, it just doesn't make a ton of
sense to me, which makes their decision to extend him
even more curious than it wasn't a vacuum.
Speaker 3: I like that.
Speaker 2: I like that. I think Miles Bridges wins the award
that doesn't exist for most obvious starting lineup spot to
upgrade on a team that matters. It's like, oh, yeah,
obviously it's him, Like that's the one they got to
fix in their contender.
Speaker 1: Ooh, you don't think it's the spur with Julian CHAMPEENNI
I love that. Obviously, what did you think? We made
it through the awards and just over just over two hours.
Speaker 2: Pretty good. I don't know if we were award worthy
in our performance. We're we're award worthy in our accountability, though,
because we don't get to we don't get to pretend
like we picked somebody else five years from now, when
it's very clear that I'm trying to pick a name here.
Uh A'man Thompson is the first team All NBA player.
You know that's a bad example. I think we did fine.
How'd you feel about it?
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted, but I'm I'm anxious for this to release
after Luca Hants has been disqualified.
Speaker 2: Or after the NBA decides you know what guys, voters,
before you do this, we're scrapping the rule now. So
Steph's and all Steph's on an All NBA third team
just if you want to.
Speaker 3: We don't care any would you put Steph on third team.
Speaker 2: After whatever the game's played threshold is he's below it
this year. If we still like that on Eastern per game,
per game all NBA, I put them on there.
Speaker 1: Here here's the new way we do awards is we
pick a ten game sample size. We choose our MVPs
and all NBA teams based off who has the highest
ten game peak each and every season.
Speaker 2: That's a So just is Bam out of bio because
he had that one game? Is he gonna be an
All NBA first teamer?
Speaker 1: Just the other surrounding games impact. It's if it's a
rolling peak.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's gonna be hard to have a bad
ten game stretch if one of them has eighty three points.
Speaker 1: Imagine if, honestly, if we did ten game peaks, do
you know how many MVP awards Kawhi would probably have
at this point?
Speaker 2: I mean, you had a pretty good Sirs, Luca with this,
He's got to have a stretch in the middle of March.
That was just unbelievable. Yeah, next year, next year, we'll
do it. I think that's the way it go.
Speaker 3: That'd be so, that'd be so great. Now, that'd be awful.
That'd be awful.
Speaker 1: But yeah, to close, please do away with the sixty
five with the sixty five game role already, I don't.
I don't know who it's helping or what it's accomplishing
at some point.
Speaker 3: Nothing in theory.
Speaker 1: It should make our jobs a little easier because you know,
you can't pick this player, but it's really just made
us crankier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is hard to do. Pretty cranky as a baseline,
So you know it's a bad rule if it's increasing
the crankiness. You got anything else we should discuss or
shall we? Should we call it now?
Speaker 1: Let us know who your awards picks were in the
comments or join our discord.
Speaker 3: Love to hear from everyone who who they have. I don't.
Speaker 1: I think that all of our picks, even the ones
that different, were just perfect. Me honestly, I think the
biggest surprise of the exercise was having chet Holme first
team All Rookie by me.
Speaker 2: He's probably pretty surprised when he watches this, he's gonna
say what happened? I mean he technically he didn't have
a rookie year, so I mean.
Speaker 3: Honestly, he wasn't even first team. He was second team.
So be better, Chet, if you were may first team.
Speaker 2: Maybe try to beat out Cedric Coward next time. Get
it together. Thanks everybody for listening, for watching, Remember rate
for you subscribe, Leave us a comment on YouTube that
helps help the algorithm. Love us back, as Dan said,
join the arn discord links for that in the YouTube
and podcast description. Tell your friends, tell your enemies until
next time, shouts Frank Nila China An apologies to Jared Allen,
neither of whom even got considered for an award this year.