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Speaker 1: What is up, fellas Echo's I Am Dan Valley coming

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at you with the one, the only, the certified, fantabulous,

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mister Grant Hughes. We are gathered here today to do

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something that no other NBA podcast in the business is doing,

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and that is to drop our official twenty twenty six

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NBA Awards ballots. Last podcast, we went over mistakes that

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were made leading into this season. Zero mistakes will be

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made during this podcast. Our ballots are perfect. Even when

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they differ, they're somehow one hundred percent correct. Before we

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dig in and talk a lot about how stupid the

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sixty five game rule is throughout this, Grant, how the

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heck are you?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 3: Well? I was.

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Speaker 2: The first thing I was going to say is that

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there will almost definitely be mistakes made because we're recording

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this when several players who are in the running for

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major awards may or may not hit sixty five. The

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margin for era has trunk zero as far as games

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that they're allowed to miss. For some of these guys

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will hit that as we get to it. So I

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am prepared to also not apologize for any mistakes here

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as I did on the previous pod, but there's gonna

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be some I got a feeling. I gotta feeling some

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guys that we're gonna handle words to are not gonna

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run the table down the stretch, Which is fine. This

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is just this is the reality of the sixty five

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game world we live in, and we will just do

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our best to cope.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I look the name.

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Speaker 1: I think the three names that are probably were even

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the four names would be so in the MVP discussion.

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Luca needs to play in one more game, and we're

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recording this the day after he suffered that calf injury

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and the Lakers lost to the Himming Excuse me, we

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are He's probably not gonna be eligible, but we're counting

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him as eligible as we do this right now. Wemby

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and Jokic can each miss one more game, and I

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think Kawhi is the same where he can miss two

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and that'll matter for all NBA purposes.

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Speaker 2: Denny Avdiya, I think Denny Avdia can miss zero games.

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It's one or zero, and he may have featured in

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some of these awards.

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Speaker 1: Kate Cunningham and Anthony Edwards have already been disqualified, which

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is why they're not But this only the sixty five

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game rule does not apply to Rookie of the Year,

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All Rookie, six Man of the Year SO and Clutch

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Player of the Year, only Most Improved Player, Defense Player

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of the Year, All Defense, MVP, All NBA. We also

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have just to keep things interesting to actually differentiate from

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other podcasts. We have a bunch of made up awards

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categories at the end that will go through, so stay

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tuned for that, or you could skip ahead to the timestamp.

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But how would you ever skip ahead on the Mega

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Awards podcast? Do you have any other thoughts, comments, concerns,

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notes about your approach before we belly flop right into

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this there.

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Speaker 2: I guess just one in that this feels like a

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weird year. Just the sixty five game part of it

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is just one aspect, But there's so many usual suspects

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that we're not talking about. Steph Jason Tatum, Tyres Halliburton,

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Evan Mobley, who is like a pretty consistent presence on

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some of these lists last year, might get one mention

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at some point.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I just I really honestly can't wait to talk to

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you about MVP. Do you want to start with MVP?

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Did you have a plan to go in a different direction.

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Speaker 1: Dude, Actually, could I one more note about the sixty

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five game rule. Tom Habistro today published a piece at

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Yahoo noting that this season star availability is down from

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last year, which was eighty percent of games, and is

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now down to sixty percent of games this year, and

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it just sort of makes you wonder. The NBA keeps

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saying that the sixty five game rule is working, and

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I don't know that it's working enough. And I think

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my biggest qualm with it is in the MVP.

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Speaker 3: Discussion when it comes to the winner.

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Speaker 1: I really don't think that you're it would have to

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be a weird season or all of the candidates would

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need to play in under sixty five games for someone

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to win MVP while playing only fifty eight. But when

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you get into all NBA, I think, is when it's

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truly annoying. Or even if you want to be able

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to put KEG Cunningham on the back of your MVP ballot,

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but can't I just find that needless? And if you're

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going to first of all, doesn't the NBA like welcome debate.

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That's why there's no set criteria like what is most

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improved player? That's an existential question.

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Speaker 2: With MVP has I mean, we don't know what the qualifier,

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what the qualifications are for MVP, we don't know how

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to define value. Like, so, yes, the NBA benefits from

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the ambiguity of all that.

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Speaker 1: And I take exception to people that say, well, why

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don't you want the best players to play and to

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get rid of the sixty five game rule?

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Speaker 3: And that is not what it's about.

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Speaker 1: And you're not even I would say ninety nine of

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the next one hundred MVP races in at least ninety

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nine of them, You're probably not voting for someone who

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misses more than twenty games in a season.

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Speaker 2: Right, Probably not. I just think any discussion of the

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rule that moves beyond it was designed to make sure

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that the media rights deal was as lucrative as possible

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and that the gambling lives could be miss is the point, Like,

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it's just that's just what it was for. To to

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pretend that it was designed to get players to play more,

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I didn't even think that was part of it. They're

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just like, let's make sure that these media partners have

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the feeling that the best players are going to play.

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That's why this rule exists.

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Speaker 3: It's all.

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Speaker 2: It's the only reason. It's all we care about. It's

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like the idea that so, yeah, that's all just that,

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that's the point of the rule. We don't need to

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discuss whether it's incentivizing players to play more or not,

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because that was never the point. It's just it was

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for media rights. We can move on, I think, in discussing.

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Speaker 1: It, and we can move on to our MVP ballots. Grant,

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do you want to take us through your MVP ballot?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Uh so I ended up with shake Gil just

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Alexander winning it. Can we have the discussion now, though,

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So I have wemby second, and I told you off

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air at this time yesterday, I was ready to do it.

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I was ready to be on the right side of history.

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I was ready to try to make the arguments that

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Wem Benyama had a case statistically beyond the like wemben

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Yama's true case is watching him and the way he

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affects a game is now officially different from watching any

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other player, and I think that includes Jokic, certainly more

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so than SGA, who's just a very very very good

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version of something we've seen before the way when Benyama

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affects the game now on both ends because of his

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gravity around the basket and what defenses have to do

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to just not allow him to catch the ball close

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because he's just dunking those. Now it's hard to quantify,

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Like if you did want to quantify it, you can

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say the Spurs net rating is higher when Wemby's on

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the floor than the Thunders is with Shay. Most of

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the catch all still like Shay a little better. They're

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just I couldn't quite get there statistically, and I wasn't

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comfortable relying on the like I just feel it that

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he's the most valuable player this year. And I also

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think the fact is he wasn't this in November, not

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quite or December like wem been Yama. I think has

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improved over the course of the year where to the

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point where if he had played all year like he has,

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let's just say since the All Star break or maybe

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even a little before that, I would have he would

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have won it. For me. I think he's the best

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player right now today. I think I think he's better.

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And I didn't even mention him when we last discussed this,

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and I was like, well, I think Shaye today is

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better than Jokic. I think wemen Yama is the best

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player in the world right now. I don't think he's

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been that all year. So I have to go with

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Shae and then so you want to discuss that before

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we go rest of the ballot. But I feel like

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that's to me, that was the biggest hang up I had.

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I wanted to give this to Wemby and I couldn't

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quite get there.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: I have Shae at won, Jokic at two and Wemby

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is four for me, and so I think the wemen

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Yameda is is one to be had because I staunchly

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disagree that he's.

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Speaker 3: The best player in the world right now.

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Speaker 1: I think he's the most entertaining player in the world

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potentially at the moment. The stuff he does on defense,

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I reckon, we've never seen anything like it, and it's

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I don't know, has there even ever been a singular

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defender who impacts the thinking and approach of all five

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players on the court the way that he does. The

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rim deterrence numbers are through the roof. There's not gonna

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be a convercea like our Defensive Player of the Year

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discussion is gonna be very cursory all defense is more

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interesting just because we know who's gonna win Defensive Player

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of the Year. It won't he plays in enough games

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for all he's able to do on offense. I don't

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know how you argue that someone who is not primarily

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responsible for driving his team's offense is more valuable than

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I have. Luca at three as an example, I think

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defense can bridge that gap to an extent. But if

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you just look at like so, true usage is one

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of my favorite stats where factors in not just it's

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the number of possessions you're using of your team's offense,

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but it's not just turnovers and shooting possessions. It's also

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accounting for assists and potential assists. Shay is ninth in

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true usage, Jokich is eighth, Luca is third, Wemby is

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forty second, And so I wanted to try and account

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for I say, I like, I made up this metric,

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but I wanted to account for, like, well, do we

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need to figure out like the defensive workload that he shoulders?

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Speaker 3: And so. Two of the other stats that be Ball

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Index has, which are really cool is two way workload,

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which is your on ball action share on offense plus

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your matchup difficulty on defense. Luka is nineteenth, Jokich is

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actually one pint eighty seven, Shay is in the top fifty.

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Speaker 1: Wemby's around two hundred and fiftieth. If you look at

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two way usage, which is matchup difficulty plus your true

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usage on offense, Wemby's outside the one one hundred and fifty.

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Everybody else who's like we would consider for MVP is

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in the top sixty.

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Speaker 3: This doesn't.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing I hate about these debates is

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it we end up focusing on what a player is

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not doing. When I find so compelling about Wemby's case,

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and you made it at the top, is this is

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the first time in a while it feels as if

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we get to focus on look at what this player

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is doing.

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Speaker 3: Because he's a new entrant into this mix.

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Speaker 1: So I have him on the top five of my

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MVP ballot, But I don't think what he does on

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defense is going to offset the gap that I still

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believe exists between him and joll Kitchen Sga specifically, but

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also Luca m like that ability to ferry an entire team.

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Speaker 3: I understand Wemby's gravity.

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Speaker 1: There's been a lot of breakdowns on that, but a

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lot of his offense and he might get to a point.

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We've seen moments he gets to his spots and he

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just scores. But you're not even looking at the way

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other teams defend the Spurs. You're not putting your best

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defender on Victor Wenbinyama most of the time. And so

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I baked that in there there too, And that just

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was part of my logic here.

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Speaker 2: Look, I couldn't get there, so I can't really push

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back too strongly. I think you know I get so

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this is why this is an insufficient argument. It's why

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I couldn't get to Wemby at number one, despite the

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fact that he's the best player on the team that's

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been the best in the league by record in net

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ratings since late November. So like, if you want to

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get real simple, best player, best team for that for

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most of the year, not all of it. Again, that's

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another reason, Like I'll say, yeah, that first month and

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a half counts. I really do think there is an

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argument to be made that we won. The numbers aren't

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catching it. They aren't catching what he's doing. I think

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on both ends, and I think the intuitively you can

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sense that on defense. You know, we've spent the year

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talking about like what do we call it when like

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a guy on a transition breakaway just decides no because

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Wembin Yama is somewhere in the neighborhood. And that applies

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to half court possessions too. It's just like, I don't

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think we've we've properly quantified his impact on a defense

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wherever he.

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Speaker 3: Is on the floor.

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Speaker 2: I think there's also a case to be made about

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him offensively. Kind of along those same lines, I'm not

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sure we totally get yet what he's doing to impact

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winning Offensively. We can see it like twenty four ish

253
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points a game on sixty plus true shooting. That's he's

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an all star offensively if he's a bad defender with

255
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numbers like that, But I don't think that we're quite

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capturing those numbers. It is so and the sort of

257
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upshot of that is the idea that defense is fifty

258
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percent of the game. I do think fell out of

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favor over the last ten years or so when we

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all I think agreed correctly that shot creation is the

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most important skill a player can have, and so we

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value these first option offensive players more than the best defenders.

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Like it's why Rudy Gobert has never been an MVP

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consideration despite being the best defender for a lot of

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his career. I wonder if wen beIN Yama's impact on

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defense is so you know, far and away. If there's

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a spectrum, right, it's like he's so far on the

268
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end from the rest of the field and from just

269
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the rest of the all defense candidates, that like, it's

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okay if he's the fortieth best offensive player because he's

271
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number one by so much on defense that it's like, well,

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that's eighty percent, it's not fifty percent. He's so good

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that we just count that as you know what I mean,

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there's something happening with him that's different that I don't

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have a firm grip on, and I don't think we

276
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collectively have a firm grip on it. That said, he's

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not my MVP. I wanted him to be. I couldn't

278
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do it just on vibes. He will be my MVP

279
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pick preseason next year, no matter what happens, and it's

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gonna be that way for a while.

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Speaker 1: I guess what I find interesting is that you already

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consider him the best player in the world because I

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go ahead. Even if I would agree with you that

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it's tough to catch, I think it's tough to capture

285
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what any good defender does on defense, quite frankly, if

286
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you're just only looking at numbers but off like even

287
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if he's doing so, like what is he how are

288
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you saving enough points preventing enough points on the defensive

289
00:14:02,039 --> 00:14:04,879
end to make up for Like if Jokic is accounting

290
00:14:04,879 --> 00:14:08,200
for fifty plus points of like are you accounting? Are

291
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,679
you impacting your team's defense by fifty plus?

292
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Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

293
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Speaker 1: Like what, I don't struggle he is a defender unlike

294
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any we've seen. I just struggle with the comparing how

295
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,600
do you measure defensive impact relative to offensive impact? Because

296
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it feels as if one player has more control over

297
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,200
elevating that ceiling than it does on the defensive end.

298
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And even if you are the best defender of all

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time on the defensive end, I don't know that that's

300
00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:42,360
ever gonna be worth more in misdiscussion than the best

301
00:14:42,399 --> 00:14:43,240
offensive player.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's a few things. One, the Spurs

303
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,720
just have a higher net rating with wem Beyond than

304
00:14:49,759 --> 00:14:52,519
the Thunderdoo with shay On, and so it's like, well,

305
00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:55,279
whatever's happening, they're winning those minutes, and we could have

306
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,879
an argument about who's supporting cast is better if you

307
00:14:57,919 --> 00:15:00,200
want to like try to apportion the credit, you know,

308
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,279
for the net raiding stuff. I think what you're talking

309
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,399
about is the Bill Russell argument. Like those Bill Russell

310
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,919
title teams eleven and thirteen years were one defensively because

311
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,799
of him, and a bunch of those Celtics teams had.

312
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I mean, I think they almost always had a below

313
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,679
average offense and often had some of the worst offensive

314
00:15:19,679 --> 00:15:23,559
production in the league, but the defense created by Russell

315
00:15:23,759 --> 00:15:27,440
and it was so good that the gap, the net

316
00:15:27,519 --> 00:15:30,440
raiding or whatever was the best in the league. So

317
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,720
it's kind of similar with Wemby. It's just like, if

318
00:15:32,759 --> 00:15:36,240
you're that much better on one end, I guess you

319
00:15:36,279 --> 00:15:38,879
can get away with not being a first option shot

320
00:15:38,879 --> 00:15:42,039
creator like we like we prefer our MVPs to be,

321
00:15:42,039 --> 00:15:44,399
because you're just winning. You're making it so your team

322
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,399
cannot lose the minutes you're on the floor in a

323
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,399
different way, and I mean that's borne out by the numbers.

324
00:15:49,399 --> 00:15:52,080
Like the Spurs don't lose when Wemby's on the court,

325
00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:55,360
you don't outscore the Spurs and they outscore you by

326
00:15:56,279 --> 00:16:00,720
sixteen per hundred, So like, however, it's getting done. I

327
00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:04,279
attribute the Spurs success almost not entire but the vast

328
00:16:04,279 --> 00:16:05,840
majority of it owes to him, Like how good is

329
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,399
this team if Luke Cornett is the center all the time?

330
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,919
It's like, what are we saying about Castle and Harper

331
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,559
and Fox and all? And I just it's I think

332
00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:16,639
he's just an elevator in ways that I don't. I

333
00:16:16,679 --> 00:16:18,879
can't quantify it. Again, it's vibes. That's why he didn't

334
00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:19,080
get it.

335
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,559
Speaker 1: But well, the other question I would have is, so

336
00:16:21,919 --> 00:16:24,080
when I looked at I started looking at your like

337
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,679
solo star minutes for each player to see how their

338
00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:31,200
team's fared. Wemby wins that category too, the samples admittedly smaller,

339
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,000
but I did get to thinking, if you pulled the

340
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,000
second most important player off of every single MVP candidates

341
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,600
team is Wemben Yama's Spurs. So I guess in that case,

342
00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:42,679
you're pulling off Fox.

343
00:16:42,919 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 3: Right.

344
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,879
Speaker 2: Still, Yeah, it's close, it could be of the Spurs.

345
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,279
Speaker 1: Are the Spurs better than the Thunder? If you pull

346
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,759
off j Dubb or pull off chat hoolmgrin. Are they

347
00:16:54,759 --> 00:16:57,879
better than the Nuggets if you pull off Jamal Murray?

348
00:16:57,919 --> 00:17:01,679
I just it's a somewhat disingenuous argument, but that's I'm

349
00:17:01,679 --> 00:17:02,960
trying to approach this from all separate.

350
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,000
Speaker 3: That's why I just can't get there one day. I

351
00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:06,559
agree with you.

352
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,440
Speaker 1: I think he might just get to that point now,

353
00:17:09,759 --> 00:17:13,319
and this isn't you specifically. It feels like there's this

354
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,799
rush to coordinate a little the best player or the MVP.

355
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,359
Speaker 2: I feel that too. I feel that is I'm not

356
00:17:20,519 --> 00:17:25,720
I'm not immune to that. I think I just I

357
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,839
don't know. I think i've I will I will admit

358
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,400
I've watched more Spurs lately than any other team. They're

359
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,920
the number one pick if I got to choose games

360
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,680
every night, So I've I've seen way more Wemby than

361
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,759
Shay or Jokic this year. But part of that's because,

362
00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:40,960
like I get it, Fellas, I know what those guys do.

363
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,599
I understand, and I I just part of that swaying

364
00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:48,599
me because you can't watch wemban Yama like what's the

365
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,319
last like ho hum game he's had? You know, like

366
00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,240
this year there's always something or several somethings that are

367
00:17:54,319 --> 00:17:56,519
just I don't know what to do with that, or

368
00:17:56,559 --> 00:17:59,000
that's no one else can do that, or like, so

369
00:17:59,279 --> 00:18:02,559
I'm swayed. I think by just watching more of him too.

370
00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:07,680
If we were doing our preseason MVP picks for twenty

371
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,359
six twenty seven, would you have him fourth or would

372
00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,519
you move him up your ballot?

373
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,119
Speaker 3: Hypothetic he'd be in the top three.

374
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,079
Speaker 1: I think Jokich would be my pick for next year,

375
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,279
still be my preseason pick, which so I think we

376
00:18:19,319 --> 00:18:21,200
could you have Weby's there's a case.

377
00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:23,119
Speaker 3: The fact that there's a case is kind of the other.

378
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,359
Speaker 1: Thing that I like, you picked Shay for MVP the

379
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,839
margins even if you think Wemby's the best player right now,

380
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,000
for Shay to play like four hundred more minutes or

381
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,400
whatever it is, that that's gonna be a huge difference maker.

382
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,240
I will say, I think Jokic has a like people

383
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:39,799
have kind of just written off Yokic as he came

384
00:18:39,839 --> 00:18:41,920
back from the left knee injury as defense sucks, And

385
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,240
I'm here to let people know, Yes, defensive rebounding counts,

386
00:18:46,279 --> 00:18:48,640
which is still the ends possessions, that's a huge deal. No,

387
00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:51,559
the defense is rough like the way that the Nuggets

388
00:18:51,559 --> 00:18:53,160
have been built around. Like when Yokic has been on

389
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,079
the floor consistently, teams get to the rim actually less,

390
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:57,559
which has a lot to do with how they use

391
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,000
him who's on the court. When you've dealt with absences

392
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,400
from Peyton Watson, Aaron Gordon, this version of Yo Kich,

393
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,799
those numbers have flipped a bit. So yeah, the defense

394
00:19:05,839 --> 00:19:09,359
has been bad. But here we are again Grant And

395
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,839
if you go look at the catch alls for every

396
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,839
team supporting cast members, k this is Jamal Murray's probably

397
00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:19,920
gonna make all NBA, and Jo Kich once again has

398
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,200
statistically the worst supporting cast in the league. Now, that's

399
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,599
not to detract from other people, like you can't penalize

400
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,359
Shay because his supporting cast is so good by the way,

401
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,519
he's barely had Jay Dubb, and when he's had Ja Dubb,

402
00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:36,799
it hasn't been caps locked Jay Dubb. But statistically, I

403
00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:38,599
know Aaron Gordon missed a bunch of time. I know

404
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,680
Cam Johnson missed a bunch of time. I know Peyton

405
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,640
Watsons missed a bunch of time. That's almost sort of

406
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,279
the point is Jo Kich really does feel as if

407
00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:51,160
he is suffering from I hate it like voter fatigue

408
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,079
here He's not my MVP, but it's people just like no,

409
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,039
like he slipped a little bit and non Jamal Murray's

410
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,440
the best season of his careers. It's fine if you

411
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,400
think that Shay is better. I think that she's been

412
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,200
more valuable, but I think that his case is actually

413
00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:06,319
way more compelling because you could say it's not Shay's

414
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,759
fault or Wemby's fault. Dude, who's supporting cast? Would you

415
00:20:09,839 --> 00:20:11,880
rather have right now? Wemby's or Jokic's.

416
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,759
Speaker 2: That's tough. I mean, I love the top end guys

417
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:19,799
on Denver, I love Gordon, I love Murray, but after that,

418
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,720
I'm giving you all the Spurs basically, so I guess.

419
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,359
I guess ultimately, ultimately I like the Nuggets top guys,

420
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,880
but if you're talking full supporting cast like rotation, I'd

421
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,119
rather have the Spurs.

422
00:20:31,519 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 1: Right And I think even with the Spurs' top guys,

423
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,279
it's I mean, like Steph Castle and dearon Fox and

424
00:20:36,319 --> 00:20:39,079
Devin Vessel is like how much Jamal Murray's clearly the

425
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:40,799
second best I think of everyone, Like.

426
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,799
Speaker 2: If Dylan Harper is on the Nuggets. One that dude's starting,

427
00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:48,240
and two you're like ecstatic about it, right, So and

428
00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:51,480
like Harper doesn't start for the Spurs, just for point

429
00:20:51,519 --> 00:20:52,480
of reference.

430
00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:54,319
Speaker 1: And that's not again, I'm not trying to detract from it.

431
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,880
I'm just propping up Jokic here by saying what he's

432
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,680
doing is still when he this is not the best

433
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,839
version of him we've ever seen what he's still doing

434
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,559
to the Nuggets to where yes, the thunder are better

435
00:21:05,599 --> 00:21:07,839
with shut on the court, the Spurs are way better

436
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,519
with Wemby on the court. The Nuggets are plus eleven

437
00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:13,519
point one per one hundred with Yokich on the court

438
00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:15,839
with a one twenty eight offensive rating, which is in

439
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,720
the ninety nine percent tile and that is by far

440
00:21:17,759 --> 00:21:19,839
and away the highest offensive rating with.

441
00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:21,039
Speaker 3: Anyone on the court.

442
00:21:21,079 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 1: I think, look, the defense matters, but the it's not

443
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,839
even just the workload he carries on offense or if

444
00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:29,160
you just I mean the numbers are yeah, like this

445
00:21:29,279 --> 00:21:31,279
is just the reduced version of Jokic. He's gonna come

446
00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:34,960
out and average twenty eight points and eleven assists per

447
00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:37,519
he leads a league and assists in rebounds too, Like

448
00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:40,400
that's a big deal sixty four percent on twos, thirty

449
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:41,920
nine percent on threes.

450
00:21:42,279 --> 00:21:43,039
Speaker 3: I think I've just.

451
00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 1: Been a little bit miffed at how quickly people are

452
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,839
willing to dismiss Jokic's case.

453
00:21:47,839 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 3: Is all I think.

454
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,799
Speaker 2: I think you can't be a serious person and have

455
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,400
him outside the top three. I think I think, like,

456
00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:55,680
I just don't know how you get there, and we

457
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,640
both have him top three. You've got him second, I've

458
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,960
got him third. I think, just one last thing on Jokic,

459
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,000
the voter fatigue is real. Like it like he's going

460
00:22:05,079 --> 00:22:06,799
to average a triple double. So he could he could

461
00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:10,039
score zero points, grab zero rebounds, and hand out zero

462
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,599
sists for the rest of the season, he would still

463
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,759
average a triple double in so far as that matters.

464
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:18,000
The leading the league in assistant rebounds, to me, is

465
00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:21,519
like more worthwhile as a stat and just more ridiculous

466
00:22:21,519 --> 00:22:24,119
and more reflective of what he does. I think he's

467
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,160
hurt by the fact that when just looking at the Spurs,

468
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,319
the Thunder and the Nuggets, the Nuggets lows have been

469
00:22:31,559 --> 00:22:34,960
have looked bad like they've they've The Nuggets have had

470
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:40,279
some conspicuous like very shitty weeks and longer than that. Yeah,

471
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,759
clutch stuff. Is it so like in a way that

472
00:22:43,839 --> 00:22:46,119
like there's not really a Shay, Like all that the

473
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,200
dude does is score twenty points, Like that's a historically

474
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,319
like that's there's no The lows for the Thunder have

475
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,079
not been the same, the lows for the Spurs have

476
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,039
not been the same. And even when the Spurs have

477
00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:58,880
looked bad, like earlier in the season, it's like, well,

478
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,839
they're average age is like seventeen and a half, so

479
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,000
of course they're of course they don't, you know what

480
00:23:04,039 --> 00:23:06,200
I mean, Like they get a pass in ways that

481
00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:09,839
Yogics and the Nuggets don't because there's no well just

482
00:23:09,839 --> 00:23:12,160
give him a little time for yokicchen the Nuggets. It's

483
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,720
not it's a different thing. So fair or not. I

484
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,119
think that's a factor too, not leading either of our ballots.

485
00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 3: Shay suffers it too.

486
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,759
Speaker 1: By the way, we've talked very little about the player

487
00:23:21,759 --> 00:23:22,759
who's actually gonna you go.

488
00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:24,559
Speaker 3: You just want to simplify it as of right now.

489
00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: I mean, the Spurs could still catch the Thunder, but

490
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,400
best player, best team, should you want to go that

491
00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:32,480
route done? I think like he's so important to the offense.

492
00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:35,440
You watch the Thunder. It's when he's off the floor,

493
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,920
or if he's off the ball, or if teams are

494
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,440
like double triple teaming him like the Thunder just don't

495
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,079
have a lot of counters right now, Chet Holmgreen can't

496
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,920
hit it three if Shake gild zuxandersm on the court

497
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,359
at the moment. And the other thing too is people say, yeah,

498
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,119
he's an active I say it too. He's an active

499
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,359
participant in an all time great defense. I don't even

500
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,599
think that he's like the third or fourth reason why

501
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:01,480
they're great on defense, but he has a real defensive

502
00:24:01,519 --> 00:24:06,240
workload in ways that this is positionally like Jokic and

503
00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:07,599
Wemby are never gonna have.

504
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,319
Speaker 3: But even if you look at Luca, you'll.

505
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: Find that the average usage rate of players that he

506
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,039
is guarding is higher than with Shay's. But the reason

507
00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:21,079
for that is Luca, I know he was better, like

508
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,640
for a month or whatever. He still gonna go after

509
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,559
him defensively. They don't go after Shake gildas Alexander defensively.

510
00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:28,839
Speaker 3: And then he does that.

511
00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:31,759
Speaker 1: On top of he plays like he can play an

512
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:34,759
important position defensively as a defensive disruptor and playmaker.

513
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 3: And I think that part of his game. When you

514
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:37,799
get into the.

515
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,079
Speaker 1: Who has the heaviest two way workload in the league,

516
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,559
it's some combination. I'm not gonna sign, Like, the data

517
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,599
is not gonna say Wemby, but Wemby's there. I think

518
00:24:47,839 --> 00:24:50,480
Kawhi is there, Kate is there, Jalen Brown is there

519
00:24:50,519 --> 00:24:52,799
for sure, but Shay is right there and might even

520
00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:56,720
be just number one because of how heavy I would argue,

521
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,319
just anecdotally speaking, I think Jokich and Caig Cunningham are

522
00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:05,960
probably the only players that have a case for carrying

523
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,400
a heavier offensive workload. You could probably find stats that

524
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,440
will throw Luca in there too, but that's more of

525
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,920
a functional choice, whereas with Luca or whereas with Shay

526
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,119
and Yo Kicch, it's more of a necessity. It feels

527
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,240
like I think that I just think it's not our

528
00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:23,039
best two way player in the game. It's no this

529
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,640
is one of what the three best players on offense

530
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,920
right now, Like who qualify for awards anyway? Who is

531
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,880
also shouldering a medium sized workload on the defensive end.

532
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,400
That's just not something you get to say about a

533
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,359
lot of the megastars.

534
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I don't know just to

535
00:25:39,319 --> 00:25:41,880
to move along with. You had Luca third, I had

536
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,400
him fourth. Just the numbers are what they are. He

537
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,440
had scored six hundred points in March. He was just

538
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,400
on fire. Now he's hurt and may not be available.

539
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:51,519
He may not qualify.

540
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 3: He's not let's call spade a spade. He's not.

541
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to do him the disrespect if we

542
00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:58,359
haven't gotten the updates. We did this, he's not going

543
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,240
to qualify for awards. That's just the day three at

544
00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:02,880
the end of the season. No, right, and so maybe

545
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,279
the last it is the last part to talk about here.

546
00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:11,200
You had Kawhi as your fifth place MVP pick. I

547
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,079
had Jalen Brown, and I will I will concede there

548
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,640
is not a statistical case on planet Earth for Jalen

549
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,640
Brown to be this high.

550
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,839
Speaker 2: Right if you look at like the on off that's

551
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,839
been you know, talking about all year, the catch alls

552
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,079
hate him, all that stuff. I'm sorry, Like I maybe

553
00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:28,759
this is me just trying to wrap my head around

554
00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:31,559
the Celtics. I just firmly believe that if he doesn't

555
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:34,960
dramatically up his usage and change the types of shots

556
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,279
he's taking and change the volume at which he's taking them,

557
00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:41,319
and always be up for guarding a very difficult assignment.

558
00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:43,599
I just don't think any of this happens in Boston.

559
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,839
I think we have to credit the coaching and the

560
00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:47,960
infrastructure and the types of players they target, and the

561
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,160
development and the tactics and all that stuff like this

562
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,839
didn't happen just because Jalen Brown had the best year

563
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,000
of his career. I just think all the conventional arguments

564
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,720
you'd make in his favor, the role, the amplification of

565
00:27:01,759 --> 00:27:04,559
his role, like the diff the degree of difficulty, the

566
00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:07,440
odds being stacked, like all that stuff, he just it

567
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,240
felt right. I think if you're asking you who I

568
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,799
if I pick want to pick a player to win

569
00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:16,000
a game tomorrow, I might just go with Kawhi over him. Still,

570
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:19,000
so I assume that's what you're you're you're and the

571
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:21,000
catch alls like Kawhi a hell of a lot more

572
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,519
than they like Jalen Brown.

573
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look the efficiency and you could say

574
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,880
the Jalen Brown's case is the workload, because there's no

575
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,960
other player in the league where you say he's his

576
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,319
team's most important offensive player and then no worse than

577
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,240
their second most important defensive player.

578
00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:38,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's Derek White is.

579
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: There, but he's not handling a lot of the toughest

580
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,440
one on one asign who else.

581
00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: He's limited Positionally, you can't throw Derek White on like

582
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,599
a big three or a power forward. Jalen Brown can

583
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:47,400
do that.

584
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,759
Speaker 3: That's actually, I mean, that's a good one.

585
00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:52,079
Speaker 1: So who is because Kate is not the second most

586
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,400
important player defensively for his team, you.

587
00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: Know, but that's just because he happens to have a

588
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,440
shits on a really good defenders around him on a normal.

589
00:27:58,279 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: But I mean, Jalen Brown's workload, the on awes are

590
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,000
what they are, like, but yeah, everything you laid out

591
00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:05,440
is his guy.

592
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: I just think it's the workload.

593
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:09,319
Speaker 1: And then still being okay, the numbers are still kind

594
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,480
of insane, Like he's at almost he's thirty four percent

595
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,440
from three to fifty two percent on twos. What did

596
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,559
it for me with Kawhi is he's had to prop

597
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,359
up some pretty just not glitzy lineups himself twenty eight

598
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,680
points and fewer in a little bit less played, Like

599
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,000
his per thirty six minutes scoring average is higher than

600
00:28:25,079 --> 00:28:27,960
Jalen Brown's. He's at Quiland thirty one point four versus

601
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,119
thirty point one for Jalen Brown. Efficiency is just insane,

602
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,039
thirty eight point five percent from three fifty seven percent

603
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,559
on twos, the vast majority of which just go unassisted.

604
00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:42,079
He's still he's the better. Is he the better playmaker

605
00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:42,759
than Jalen Brown?

606
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:44,519
Speaker 3: At this point? Jalen Brown averages more assists.

607
00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: But I trust Kawhi more to make the right decision

608
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,039
with the ball, if that's a fair way to say it.

609
00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:52,440
And I think that he's still like Pete Kawai on

610
00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:56,240
defense is like Jalen Brown. I think it's close, but

611
00:28:56,319 --> 00:28:58,839
Kawhi has been the more efficient offense, the more dominant

612
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,680
offensive player. To me, You've had some turnover with his team, uh,

613
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,720
and he's had to prop up some pretty tough lineups himself, honestly,

614
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,880
And maybe I'm just flabbergast that he's even as of

615
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,119
right now still eligible to like, you know, the war's better.

616
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,720
There's that element to it too.

617
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to get it in there while you can,

618
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,160
because it's like, oh, he made it, what are the

619
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,079
other I do think there's a funny parallel between these

620
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:23,640
two guys, which is I mean one of them was

621
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,680
sort of exterior expectations with respect to the Celtics, and

622
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,680
one was like pretty clearly in house, like the Clippers

623
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,480
traded away their other two best players, and Kauhi was

624
00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:36,079
just kind of like, we're actually not going to be bad.

625
00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:38,400
Sorry to disappoint you, and and and Jalen Brown the

626
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,359
Celtics are supposed to have a gap year was just like,

627
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:43,440
what's that? I No, not not while I'm here. I'm

628
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,240
gonna have the best season in my career. They both

629
00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:49,720
really like kept teams in, put teams in positions that

630
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,200
was way beyond expectations. I don't know how you weigh

631
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,839
that in an MVP discussion, but it's interesting that they

632
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,319
both have that in their favor and you're making their cases.

633
00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: Who would So let's.

634
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: Just assume if Luca does get bounced off, are we

635
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,920
just swapping like I'd have Jalen Brown coming in at a.

636
00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:10,279
Speaker 3: Fifth and you'd have Gui coming in at fifth or

637
00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:11,799
is there someone else you'd be throwing on the ballot

638
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:12,440
with no Luca?

639
00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: No, that would that would have to be it. Do

640
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,799
you want to go into all NBA next just to

641
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:17,839
kind of extend that.

642
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't remember whose teams I put first on

643
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,559
the board, I put mine because I'm an narcissist.

644
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,319
Speaker 3: So first team is just my.

645
00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: MPP ballot, Sga Yokich, Luca wemb Kawhi. Then I have

646
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,960
Jalen Brown on second team, Donovan Mitchell on second team.

647
00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:37,319
I think that's the seven locks as of right now

648
00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:39,480
for me, where it's okay, these seven spot like, these

649
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,240
players are no worse than all NBA second team, and

650
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,759
then everything else thereafter just gets.

651
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,599
Speaker 3: Kind of wild.

652
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: So I have on my second team Tyre's Maxi, Jalen Brunton,

653
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,200
and Kevin Durant.

654
00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be honest with you, Grant.

655
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,079
Speaker 1: I don't feel great about the Kevin Durant pick, but

656
00:30:56,519 --> 00:30:58,359
I don't know how you look at someone who's just

657
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,880
out here averaging twenty five plus points on historical efficiency. Again,

658
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,240
and the Rockets offense gets by. If Shangon's off the court,

659
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:06,920
it's still good with Duran. If im and Thompson is

660
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,160
off the court, it's still good with Durant. No, Reed Shepherd,

661
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,200
it's still good with Durant. I'm maybe I'm just tainted

662
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,279
by the vibes. Something feels rotten wherever he goes at

663
00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:17,799
this point, and then the crunch time experience for Houston's

664
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:20,759
been rough. The dude can still ball up. I have

665
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,759
chet third team, Jalen Durans is a lock for me.

666
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,200
Third team, Jalen Johnson as well, Jamal Murray's third team,

667
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,400
and I have Devin Booker my toughest cut with Scottie Barnes.

668
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,359
I've loved Scottie Barnes this season. I think I'm trying

669
00:31:35,359 --> 00:31:37,440
to think if there's anything real debatable one, So the

670
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,559
Devin Booker. I know the efficiency has come down, but

671
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,200
if you look at anyone that you were gonna begin

672
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:46,200
to consider for all NBA grant and you look at

673
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,920
the offensive catch alls, Devin Booker doesn't even have like

674
00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:54,519
a top three hundred like collective supporting cast. And there's

675
00:31:54,559 --> 00:31:56,160
just no other one of these players. I could say

676
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,119
the same the fact that their offense is in basically

677
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,359
the seventieth percent Highwan Booker's on the court, and I

678
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,279
still think he's one of the games more underrated passer.

679
00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:07,039
He's probably the most Just what Jalen duran has done

680
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:10,680
offensively this year's good. He's gotten better on the perimeter defensively,

681
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,480
but his efficiency with Kate Cunning him off the floor

682
00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:15,400
has spiked this.

683
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 3: Year, and so that's a huge deal for him.

684
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,039
Speaker 1: Then Jalen Johnson just offensive engine in Atlanta before Trey

685
00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:23,640
Young left, and after Trey Young left some weird half

686
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,119
court stuff, but he's just been great offensively.

687
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: This this is the.

688
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,039
Speaker 1: Year Murray makes an All NBA team, right. The shot

689
00:32:30,039 --> 00:32:31,880
making has been insane. The minutes without Yo Kich are

690
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,480
still rough. But surprise, surprise, I came closest to putting

691
00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:37,920
Chet on second team. As I'm just rambling here about

692
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,400
my choices. I just I'd like to see more from

693
00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:41,759
him offensively.

694
00:32:41,799 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: Still, yeah, I think he's so I have basically we

695
00:32:47,559 --> 00:32:50,200
flip flop Kawhi and Jalen Brown for my team on

696
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,880
second half, Kawhi as second team or obviously Donovan Mitchell

697
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,319
I think. I think obviously Jalen Brunson, And then the

698
00:32:56,359 --> 00:33:00,400
two differences I have are Chet and Jalen Johnson made

699
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,240
my second team. I would just like to point out

700
00:33:03,279 --> 00:33:09,279
that if we could include Cade, Steph Tatum, Halliburton, and

701
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,240
that's five more guys that I think would be no

702
00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:15,319
worse than second team, And so that makes me feel

703
00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:18,519
better about getting past those top seven guys. That you

704
00:33:18,599 --> 00:33:21,240
talked about and being like, I don't know, dude, there's

705
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,799
twenty five players that could take these last eight spots

706
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,799
between the end and the second team and the beginning

707
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:31,000
of third team. So that gave me a little comfort

708
00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:34,799
because the rest of this is hard. We're mostly similar.

709
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,160
So I also had Murray on my third team. I

710
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,400
had Maxi third instead of second like you did. I

711
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,880
had Durant third again because of all the he leaves

712
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,279
it worse than he found it that knocked him down

713
00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:50,839
to third for me. And then I did have Barnes third,

714
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,720
and Bam out of Bio was my final third teamer.

715
00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:56,680
We've both got like some honorable mentions that I think

716
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,160
there's a great case for every single one of them

717
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,240
making it over a third team guy and maybe even

718
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,799
some back end second teamers. But again that's because there

719
00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:07,839
are literally five, no worse than second teamers that are

720
00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:10,800
not able to be considered for this award.

721
00:34:11,519 --> 00:34:14,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, who was your toughest cut leave off?

722
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 3: Mine was Scotty Barnes. Who was yours?

723
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: Uh? I mean it might have been Denny Avdya, but

724
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,159
he again, he's someone that might not make it. I

725
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,960
think he has to play every game and this recording.

726
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:30,519
Speaker 3: Ever since his injury, what was it the back or

727
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:31,639
he's had.

728
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 2: A back all year? I mean yeah, other than that.

729
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: Well, have my honorable mentions included h Denny Avdya, Pascal Siakam,

730
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,880
James Harden, Scottie Barnes already said, and then.

731
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,079
Speaker 3: LaMelo deserves an honorable mention here as well.

732
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,119
Speaker 2: To me, I guess so I had I didn't have

733
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:51,280
Jalen Duran on an All NBA team. He's on my

734
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,039
like honorable mentioned fourth team. So maybe that was That's

735
00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:56,239
the one that him and Avdia I think are the

736
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,079
ones you tough.

737
00:34:57,199 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 1: You potentially cost him a thirty percent max sir by doing.

738
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 2: That good thing. I don't vote. Uh yeah, we're mostly

739
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,079
aligned here, I think, But did you feel the same

740
00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:09,840
way of like you get halfway through second team and

741
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,119
you're kind of wondering where the no brainers are At

742
00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:14,039
that point, they just we kind of ran out. It

743
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:15,679
feels like earlier than I wasn't.

744
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,199
Speaker 1: Even sure if and this might be an overexposure to

745
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:20,480
like their topsy turbinus. I wasn't even sure if Jalen

746
00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:24,280
Brunton deserved to be like a lot second team. I

747
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,360
said seven locks, and then he was kind of my eighth.

748
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,880
He's probably on the fringe of it. But yeah, and look,

749
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,440
some of it is just guys playing different roles or

750
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,199
in these weirds. So forget about the players removed from injuries.

751
00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:40,280
But Tyrese Maxie ascending to the sixers all everything this year,

752
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,000
Jalen Johnson doing the same in Atlanta. Uh, and then

753
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:46,239
Scotti barr again I left him off my team. Scotty

754
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,079
Barnes didn't know how to square away where it's I

755
00:35:48,119 --> 00:35:49,599
looked and I was like, you know, he doesn't do

756
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,280
like enough for the offense and like, but part of

757
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,440
what I really appreciate about his seasons that he's off

758
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,360
the ball more on offense and figuring out a way

759
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,880
to make it work and so circumstances.

760
00:35:58,159 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: Like that, and probably had the best defensive season of

761
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,679
his career. Like all all.

762
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: Tolls, he's like what if, Like what if ogn Andobi

763
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,719
was also a defensive playmaker and on steroids basically is

764
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,239
what like what Scottie Barnes does.

765
00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: So this was hard. They are just too many guys

766
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,960
that I would haven't have locked put in, you know,

767
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,199
like if if the games were quite obviously Edwards, obviously Cunningham.

768
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,639
Speaker 3: If we didn't those were all NBA locked guys.

769
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I would have considered both over Jalen

770
00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:31,119
Brown on my first team. Like actually, Kate would have

771
00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:31,760
made first team.

772
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 1: Kate Cad would have been my He would have been

773
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,280
fifth on my MVP ballot as well over Kwhy. Yeah,

774
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,719
and Edwards would have been I think he would have

775
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:40,639
been on my second team.

776
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,639
Speaker 3: And so it's just if the injuries is like Tatum

777
00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:43,280
and Haliburton, we.

778
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,199
Speaker 1: Knew that going in they weren't going to qualify. Whatever Giannish,

779
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:47,559
we didn't even mention his name.

780
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,559
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ right, Yeah, he might have been a consideration

781
00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:54,719
if he'd stayed healthy, like he would have been first team.

782
00:36:55,039 --> 00:36:57,519
First team would be done. And so then you're talking

783
00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:01,079
aunt Kate, Well, that would have been interesting if Jannis

784
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:03,320
has a relative. If Jannis gets to sixty five games

785
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,000
with his numbers because he displays Caid from first team.

786
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: Actually that would have been one of the cool And

787
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,760
maybe this is just how each season works out, as

788
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,639
you can't get it, but if Caid, Anthony, Edwards, and

789
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:16,800
Giannis had all qualified, that would have made for just

790
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,199
a really fun like all NBA debate for the first

791
00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:21,119
two teams.

792
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,199
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I mean Jannis, who knows the Bucks probably

793
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:26,840
would have sucked anyway. But Jannis, if he if his

794
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,000
numbers had held up over a full season, you have

795
00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:30,760
to He's on the MVP ballot too.

796
00:37:31,599 --> 00:37:34,119
Speaker 1: They're like, there were plus nine points per one hundred

797
00:37:34,119 --> 00:37:37,599
persons with Gianni's floors. That's maybe they wouldn't talk about

798
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:39,679
a carry job. I know Ryan Ronalds has been good,

799
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:40,039
but my.

800
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: Guy, Yeah, all right, what's next? Where are we going?

801
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 3: You want to take us through defensive Player of the Year.

802
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, this slightly less debate. I feel like across the

803
00:37:50,199 --> 00:37:53,480
board here we we also have the same ballot wemby

804
00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:55,760
one with a bullet There's it's not close. For me,

805
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,320
It's not a conversation. There's no discussion. He's the best

806
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,800
defensive player i've does.

807
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 3: He lead the league in rebounds defensive.

808
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: He's the best defender I've ever seen. I don't. I mean,

809
00:38:10,559 --> 00:38:13,239
this is that's hyperbolic. It's recency biased, Like because I've

810
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,360
seen Aichem Olaja want to play basketball, I remember that.

811
00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:18,880
But you know, David Robinson, I've seen Tim Duncan, I've

812
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,880
seen Kevin Garnett never seen anybody do what Wemby does,

813
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,880
and eventually we're going to figure out how to quantify

814
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,760
it appropriately. Rudy Gobert second, he's back to like the

815
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,119
defense is just great when he plays, and it's basically

816
00:38:33,159 --> 00:38:36,920
because of him. And then Chet is a pretty easy

817
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,519
third for me. I'd be curious if who you had,

818
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,639
if you had anybody really challenging for the top three here, Chet,

819
00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:45,719
like the rebounding not great, He can be pushed around.

820
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,360
He's not physically as strong as as Gobert. He doesn't

821
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,880
have Wemby's length that offsets a similar kind of strength issue.

822
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,119
I would argue Wemby's probably harder to move though than

823
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,119
Chet even now, just with physicality. But Chet just as

824
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:01,320
a rover, as a guy that you can't attack as

825
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,280
a guard on a switch is like he just that

826
00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:05,719
is a pretty clear third to me.

827
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 3: That's the big stuff for me.

828
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,119
Speaker 1: Then the ability to contest those jumpers but also get

829
00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:11,360
back and still contest at the rim. He actually leads

830
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,280
the league in like the impact on opponent shot quality,

831
00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:20,760
so no team's overall shot quality declines by more, which

832
00:39:21,159 --> 00:39:23,920
like than having Chet on the floor, which is pretty

833
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,960
I think that it's weird that it's not Wemby, But

834
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,159
when you look, it does feel like Chet is more

835
00:39:29,159 --> 00:39:33,519
in those isolation perimeter situations. So I think that would

836
00:39:33,559 --> 00:39:35,840
make sense if you dig into it. I do think

837
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,480
some people, if I did consider Scottie Barnes here, like

838
00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:41,639
to be in the top three. But I think some

839
00:39:41,679 --> 00:39:45,119
people will be surprised. I haven't seen like too many

840
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:47,920
Rudy Gobert Top two defense. I don't even if I've

841
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,360
seen him on a lot of Top three. You said it, though,

842
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,519
it's not just that the defense is good when he's on.

843
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:55,840
Ja mc dan has been really good defensively this year.

844
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,360
That's like really about it for the Wolves. The other

845
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,480
thing is that the defense is still designed to like,

846
00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:05,000
no you, I dare you to go in to Rudy Gobert.

847
00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:07,400
And when you look at so where Chet leads the

848
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,400
league in the influence and opponent shot quality an opponent

849
00:40:11,519 --> 00:40:16,239
expected shot performance, this is the entire floor. Nobody has

850
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,400
a bigger swing than Rudy Gobert there, and that's you

851
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,599
know what It lignes. The rim frequency is down a lot,

852
00:40:21,679 --> 00:40:23,800
not as much as Wemby, but who is when Rudy

853
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,199
Gobert is on the court, you toggle, take Jane McDaniels off,

854
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:28,880
you know who stills an only defense. If Rudy go

855
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,280
Bear's on the court, the Wolves doesn't matter if it's

856
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,280
not as or for Julius Randall next to him. And

857
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,519
by the way, neither of those especially Julius Randall for

858
00:40:37,679 --> 00:40:40,440
like two thirds of this season. If you were to

859
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,360
make a rotation player who doesn't appear entirely checked in

860
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,920
on the defensive end, like All NBA team, Julius Randall's

861
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:48,719
making first team.

862
00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 3: There like the.

863
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: Mount that Rudy Gobert has to shoulder. And I think

864
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:54,639
I might have said this in a podcast a couple

865
00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:57,119
of months ago. You can kind of see it in

866
00:40:57,159 --> 00:41:00,800
certain lineups with the Wolves if they if they forget

867
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,719
or defend, like Rudy Gobert is still behind him and

868
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,679
he's not because he's off the court.

869
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 3: It's a disaster.

870
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: And even the other night, what game was where Chris

871
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,039
Finch went to the nasry Julius Randall look and it's

872
00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:14,679
game theory. It's like, oh, offensive dynamism again. I think

873
00:41:14,679 --> 00:41:17,119
it was the game that Ant missed. So I say

874
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:19,159
the other night it was Thursday night, or was it

875
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,639
whatever night was. While I was watching that game, I

876
00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:24,320
don't want to see it. And then like Rudy Gobert,

877
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,480
how many Defensive Players of the Year deep already and

878
00:41:27,519 --> 00:41:30,320
we're still saying this for that's kind of insane.

879
00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I think too, he really, I was just

880
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,039
looking down the rest of our ballots. You have on

881
00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:40,800
your third team one guy that you would describe this way,

882
00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:45,360
but there's not another conventional like throw I guess throwback

883
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,599
just rim protecting center on any anywhere on our defensive

884
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:52,719
Player of the Year or all defense ballots. He's like

885
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,119
the last of this type. It feels like because everybody else,

886
00:41:57,039 --> 00:41:59,239
it doesn't matter how tall you are or how great

887
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:00,760
a shot blocker a you are, like you gotta be

888
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,400
able to move and and like he has always been

889
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,000
better in isolation on the perimeter than he's gotten credit for,

890
00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:08,639
because there's there's highlight packages of him getting cooked by

891
00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:11,920
Steph and Luca and whatever. But like he's good at that.

892
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,599
It's just that he's the last. I mean, I'm trying

893
00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:17,920
to think of who else even there is in the

894
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,000
league that plays the defensive center position like him. Well,

895
00:42:22,039 --> 00:42:24,079
I think he's gonna be on your third team, right, yeah,

896
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:24,760
there is.

897
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 3: I came.

898
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: I came very close, but after consulting with people who

899
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,320
have watched Borm than I have, they told me that

900
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,360
would be a little bit of a rushed coordinat So

901
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:35,960
he came very close to making one of my All

902
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,159
defense teams though, So.

903
00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:39,079
Speaker 2: Let's jump to the All defense then, Yeah? Is that

904
00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:40,039
is that our next move?

905
00:42:40,159 --> 00:42:41,159
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I split these up.

906
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: Ars will be since there's only two of them, they'll

907
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,840
both be on this green at the same time. So

908
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,400
my first team is my All Defense is my is

909
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:49,599
my Defensive Player of the Year ballot.

910
00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 3: So wemby Rudy Gobert Chat.

911
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: I have Scottie Barnes first team, and then Asar Thompson,

912
00:42:54,079 --> 00:42:56,519
who's a certified maniac on the defense. You want someone

913
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,599
like it's the defense of playmaking, it's the matchup to Fficulty,

914
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,880
It's the way that he's shifting opponent shots.

915
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:05,679
Speaker 3: It's oh, he could be if he really needed him to.

916
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 1: Like, he'll contest a ton of looks at the RAM

917
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,360
even though he doesn't necessarily need to all the time

918
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,079
in Detroit scheme, and he creates like nobody forces just

919
00:43:13,119 --> 00:43:16,440
turnovers more like just outright forces turnovers and retains possession

920
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,280
more than he does in the league. He's been fantastic

921
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,400
and he probably has a case as the best one

922
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,440
on one defender in the NBA right now. His brother

923
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:26,719
also has a case. You could there are other guys

924
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,239
that throw in there, but he has a real case,

925
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,760
and he's the only I know. He's more of a

926
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,599
football like Scottie Barnes plays. He still does a ton

927
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:35,000
of the one on one stuff. Like man, I loved

928
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,000
Scotty Barnes's defense this season is bit nuts. But who's

929
00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:39,119
on your first first team?

930
00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:41,519
Speaker 2: So I had a star all the same reasons I

931
00:43:42,199 --> 00:43:45,320
I it's hard to be a first team all defense

932
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,920
guy if you're not a big to me still, but

933
00:43:48,039 --> 00:43:52,159
it's just a star as singularly dominant as a wing

934
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:57,079
and guard and forward defender. I put Bam on my

935
00:43:57,079 --> 00:44:00,559
first team. I think he also as a case as

936
00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:02,400
the best one on one defender in the league because

937
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,519
he really truly is a five position guy. The shot

938
00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:09,360
blocking and the rim protection that's been a knock on

939
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,280
him forever. It also doesn't help that the heat are

940
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,599
giving up one hundred and sixty points a night like

941
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,920
the past two weeks. Which is you know, I I

942
00:44:18,039 --> 00:44:25,760
still think that his versatility his like there's no attacking him.

943
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,159
That's just like not it's not done. It doesn't matter

944
00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:31,760
what the what position you have on the ball against him.

945
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,480
So I don't know, maybe that's that's a little bit

946
00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:37,000
of a where did you have him? Just so I

947
00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:39,199
know how how crazy I'm not being. Did you have

948
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,519
him on your Uh? You got him?

949
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:41,159
Speaker 3: Where is?

950
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:46,079
Speaker 2: You don't have Bam anywhere? Defense is always on your

951
00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:48,000
second team? I see I'm looking at the doctor Celes

952
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,760
Scottie Barnes there, thank god. Okay, uh yeah, not a

953
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,559
lot to add I just I love Bam. I think

954
00:44:53,599 --> 00:44:55,960
he's he may not be quite what he was three

955
00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:58,880
or four years ago defensively, but he's he's still just

956
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,159
you could you can build it championship defense with Bam

957
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:01,760
in the middle of it.

958
00:45:02,199 --> 00:45:04,159
Speaker 1: The thing that's hold me on a sarrow over Bam

959
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,159
is And this is a stupid like he is for

960
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,239
the position and role that he plays. Being second in

961
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,679
defensive estimated plus minus is absurd.

962
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 2: Pretty well, it's just.

963
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: Like that's that's wild. But again, he just does so

964
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,800
so many other things. You want to take us through

965
00:45:18,119 --> 00:45:18,920
your second.

966
00:45:18,599 --> 00:45:22,159
Speaker 2: Team Uh yeah, So I had Scottie Barnes leading off

967
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,320
my second team, and then I wanted to have mobile.

968
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,920
Evan Mobley is on it. I feel like he has been.

969
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,840
I would say the word disappointment is probably coming up

970
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,559
first in discussing him in his progress this season based

971
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:39,840
on last year. The pendulum classic Hardwood Knock's statement the

972
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,519
pendulum has swung a little too far towards the negative.

973
00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:44,960
On Evan Mobley. I think he's still one of the

974
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,079
ten best defenders in the league. That might even sell

975
00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:47,840
him short.

976
00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: And props up a good defense whether he's playing the

977
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:51,559
four or the five.

978
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 2: Right right. You also don't attack him in space another

979
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,280
that's kind of gonna need to be a fact for

980
00:45:58,320 --> 00:45:59,760
the rest of this ballot. If you're a big guy

981
00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:03,320
than Gobert and you're you're to be named later. Third

982
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:08,599
teamer Derek White, Iman Thompson, O Gann Andobi. I don't

983
00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:10,639
know what to say about those guys. It's just like

984
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,920
great on the ball, smart off the ball, versatile like

985
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,320
White is the least versatile of the of those three,

986
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,000
but is still just, I mean, maybe the best shot

987
00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:22,480
blocking guard since Dwayne Wade. Like he has a ton

988
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:25,360
of contests at the rim of the defense that needs

989
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,559
it because they have one and a half centers. Yeah,

990
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:31,440
you've got White too, so I don't need to make

991
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:31,960
the case to you.

992
00:46:32,199 --> 00:46:34,599
Speaker 1: We have the same second team ballot, except I had

993
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,280
Scotty first team and Bam second team, and you had

994
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,920
Scotty second team BAM first team. Just on the Scotti

995
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,400
knowe though, is he is the only player on any

996
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,280
of the all defense ballots that we both have that

997
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,119
ranks them both the top fifty of matchup difficulty and

998
00:46:50,159 --> 00:46:51,280
positional versatility.

999
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 3: A lot of the times those two don't where it's.

1000
00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: Bam is so versatile, but you're not going to throw

1001
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,920
him on the other team's best player, and that's what

1002
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,800
I appreciate that you'll do with Scotty Barnes.

1003
00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,519
Speaker 3: He's also third.

1004
00:46:59,519 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: The other note I had that I didn't get to

1005
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,119
third in the impact he's having in the league and

1006
00:47:04,639 --> 00:47:06,360
the influence on opponent shot quality.

1007
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 3: He's been great.

1008
00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: I don't have anything to add with what you said

1009
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,480
other than I think ogn Andobi would probably have a

1010
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:15,199
first team case if he did more of the traditional

1011
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,079
defense of playmaking stuff, but he has to cover up

1012
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,039
if he's not on the best player like defending, like

1013
00:47:21,079 --> 00:47:22,800
because he can handle his own one on one. Maybe

1014
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,880
not the best screen navigator, but can handle his own there.

1015
00:47:25,119 --> 00:47:26,960
But if he's not doing that, he kind of needs

1016
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,559
to make sure that he's covering up for everything else,

1017
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,159
like closer to the basket or just like on the

1018
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:35,000
back line, and he just doesn't have the I don't

1019
00:47:35,199 --> 00:47:37,599
call it a luxury, but it's like because even Scotty

1020
00:47:37,599 --> 00:47:39,480
Mars has always had that luxury, but it's still able

1021
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,280
to like make those defensive disrupted plays, have those counting stats,

1022
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,239
those stocks. That's not really og Annoby's game, but he's

1023
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,679
been and by the way the Knicks have been, I

1024
00:47:48,679 --> 00:47:50,760
think if you're looking at them to be a championship contender,

1025
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,800
you could argue that that no, it's a disaster. But

1026
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,559
they're not the defensive turn style that they're often made

1027
00:47:57,559 --> 00:47:58,079
out to be.

1028
00:47:58,199 --> 00:48:00,519
Speaker 3: It's like they and they should.

1029
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: They should be based on based on the guys at

1030
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,079
the point of attack that they often have involved in

1031
00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:07,719
the air, like you you know, we praised Gobert for

1032
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,599
like you gotta you gotta deal with making up for

1033
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,840
Julius Randall and nas Reed and like the Vincenzo's pretty

1034
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,920
overrated on the ball, and Edward's effort comes and goes

1035
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,159
like making up for Jalen Brunson and Cat and Bridges

1036
00:48:20,199 --> 00:48:24,239
who mostly is good. But I don't know that's all.

1037
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,920
That's a that's a heavy lift for OGI. So if

1038
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,760
you're not getting a bunch of blocks and steels, like

1039
00:48:29,159 --> 00:48:32,000
I get it, Man, you're working pretty hard out there.

1040
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,039
Speaker 3: Uh is there who are so? Oh so?

1041
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,599
Speaker 1: My honorable mention My toughest cut was Donovan Klinging. He's

1042
00:48:39,679 --> 00:48:42,199
just like you mentioned the hole is anyone cut from

1043
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,440
the Rudy Gobert cloth and it's kind of him.

1044
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: He's just going to be this dominant rim protector.

1045
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: He comes up in every single metric what like you're

1046
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,440
just looking like he just shows up at the top

1047
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,719
of mostly all of these defensive stats. He just doesn't

1048
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,559
have I think when you're looking at like a Rudy Gobert,

1049
00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:02,519
obviously the a Wemby, even a Mobile, even a Scottie

1050
00:49:02,519 --> 00:49:05,280
Barnes or a Chet Holmgren, the deterrence.

1051
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,119
Speaker 3: Factor isn't quite there just yet.

1052
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: But you know it's gonna be because people are eventually

1053
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,000
gonna catch on to the fact that oh no, you

1054
00:49:11,039 --> 00:49:13,760
can't score with this guy around the basket. And so

1055
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:18,400
he's been absolutely fantastic for Portland this year. And I

1056
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,920
I think if we were making preseason all defense ballots

1057
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,280
next year, like I'm probably gonna throw.

1058
00:49:23,199 --> 00:49:23,519
Speaker 3: Him on there.

1059
00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:25,119
Speaker 1: If I wanted to get really spicy, I would just

1060
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:27,199
throw him top three in my Defensive Player of the

1061
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:27,800
Year voting.

1062
00:49:28,039 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: Okay, I think you've just you've got a bold prediction

1063
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,039
ready for next year. So we kind of did similar

1064
00:49:34,039 --> 00:49:35,719
things here. This is where I started to just throw

1065
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,159
a lot of the guards and wings that I wanted

1066
00:49:38,199 --> 00:49:41,880
to acknowledge in the honorable mention section. So like Steph Castle,

1067
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,920
you've got him to Chris Dunn, Dyson Daniels, Jaden McDaniels,

1068
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,760
Cason Wallace, throw every other thunder winger guard down there that.

1069
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 3: You want to.

1070
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 2: Great at what they do. I just I think it's

1071
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,079
fairly well established now that the impact overall of as

1072
00:49:57,119 --> 00:49:59,800
good as someone like Chris Dunn is at what he does,

1073
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:02,719
it's real hard to argue that that's even in the

1074
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,599
same category as what like Gobert does. To like, for

1075
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,079
your unique defensive performance.

1076
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,280
Speaker 1: You need to either be Derek White or like Chris

1077
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,000
Dunn would have to play forty minutes a game probably.

1078
00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: Right, there's that acpect, Yeah, yeah, the had Alex Cruzo

1079
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,599
played enough games to qualify, it's the minutes for him too.

1080
00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:23,159
It's just you've got to hit some kind of threshold

1081
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:28,000
to offset the just greater value of a big against

1082
00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:28,440
the small.

1083
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: I did want to ask you, though, when you're looking

1084
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,719
at this from a so like moving away from the

1085
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:34,880
bigs a little bit, when you're looking at the perimeter guys,

1086
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,800
what do you value more? Is it the on ball

1087
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,360
defense or what someone like a Derek White does.

1088
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 2: I would say that what someone like a Derek White

1089
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:48,159
does is probably objectively more valuable. But I guess there's

1090
00:50:48,199 --> 00:50:51,440
there's no one criteria like event creation, like who's tipping passes,

1091
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,880
who's getting steals? Just the aesthetics of like, you can't

1092
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,519
dribble against this guy without taking on a high degree

1093
00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:01,159
of risk. I think that's true for Done in particular,

1094
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:07,719
Wallace Castle, all these guys. So it's not I think

1095
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,840
you can get suckered a little bit if you're just

1096
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,079
looking at like like people used to think Collin Sexton

1097
00:51:12,119 --> 00:51:14,000
was a good defender because he was very intense on

1098
00:51:14,039 --> 00:51:18,599
the ball and he just smack. You can't you can't

1099
00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:21,920
look at that. There's got to be some White is White.

1100
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,440
I think you're right to point out that White's a

1101
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,840
little different than all these other guards we're talking about,

1102
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,679
because they're maybe more disruptive, more athletic, more there's more

1103
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,800
like wow moments that pop. But but like Castle's not

1104
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,880
doing the super savvy. Oh he's the low man and

1105
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,159
he's suddenly a great rim protector or like he's in

1106
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:43,760
the right spot suddenly all the time. Like that's that's

1107
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,000
a different type of that that that's really what approximates

1108
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:48,519
more of what like a great big guy can do

1109
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,039
is just like putting out fires all over the place.

1110
00:51:51,079 --> 00:51:52,360
It's really hard for a guard.

1111
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 1: To do that, and White stands out it's even hard

1112
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,320
for a wing to. I don't know what you consider Scotti, NSR. Thompson,

1113
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,039
but they're like the wings that can.

1114
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 3: Do that too.

1115
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean the Thompsons are the Thompsons are

1116
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,039
like their own thing. I don't know what it's just

1117
00:52:06,159 --> 00:52:10,559
their athleticism is hard to sort of quantify. But but yeah,

1118
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,840
if you're a true like a I've got like I

1119
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,239
don't know Wallace really is. Wallace can guard up a

1120
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,800
little bit, but like Done is a point guard defender

1121
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,400
really like maybe some twos but like Castle can move

1122
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,760
a lot. Yeah, they're really I guess maybe the true

1123
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,840
takeaway is if you only guard point guards, like you're

1124
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:29,400
not that impactful of a defender.

1125
00:52:30,639 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's even just like you run into the

1126
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,760
problem where I think like if a jaw and Suggs

1127
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,199
had qualified, I think he probably does enough, but it's

1128
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,039
like on the margins there, then you want to take

1129
00:52:41,119 --> 00:52:44,039
us through a little until we're up to Rookie of

1130
00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:44,599
the Year.

1131
00:52:45,079 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: All right, another high the hive mind struck on this one,

1132
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,440
but like this is the correct order. I feel like,

1133
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:54,519
I don't you know unless you're living in Dallas, I guess.

1134
00:52:54,519 --> 00:52:57,280
So Rookie of the Year number one continental for me,

1135
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:01,280
one of the best just the best rookie shooting season

1136
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,039
we've seen and one of the best shooting seasons full stop.

1137
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,199
Pretty cool that it happened in his first year as

1138
00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:12,519
a professional basketball player. Uh Cooper flag number two. I

1139
00:53:12,519 --> 00:53:14,320
don't know what this would have looked like if he'd

1140
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,960
been just better positions to.

1141
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,639
Speaker 3: To well, do you know where it feels.

1142
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: Difference came is I was actually he seemed more polished

1143
00:53:23,519 --> 00:53:25,559
on the offensive end, where it's just like the handle

1144
00:53:25,639 --> 00:53:27,320
looks better than people made. I didn't watch again, I

1145
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,440
don't watch a ton of college or that, But with defensively,

1146
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,559
it's I've seen people like, oh, the defensive playmaking or

1147
00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:35,960
event creation like you called it wasn't as high ended

1148
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,079
as supposed to be. Like, well, look who he's playing

1149
00:53:38,119 --> 00:53:40,480
alongside and the defensive role they haven't played, like, that's

1150
00:53:40,519 --> 00:53:42,960
not the role that he's been in for most of

1151
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:43,480
the season.

1152
00:53:43,519 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 3: So I do wonder.

1153
00:53:44,559 --> 00:53:46,199
Speaker 1: If I think a lot of people would say, well,

1154
00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:47,840
what if he didn't start the season having a run

1155
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:49,760
point guard of having to be so important on offense.

1156
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,599
Speaker 3: I kind of come away thinking like, what if he

1157
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:53,079
was just.

1158
00:53:53,119 --> 00:53:56,159
Speaker 1: Allowed to always be in the like the defensive role

1159
00:53:56,199 --> 00:53:57,719
that he was born to be in.

1160
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 2: Or I mean split the difference, what if he's just

1161
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,159
put in a just a a sensible role where you

1162
00:54:04,199 --> 00:54:06,920
can do some of the offensive stuff that we didn't

1163
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:08,719
really know you had, and you can flash a little

1164
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,639
bit of that, but you're not so overburdened, especially at

1165
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:13,639
the beginning of the year, with playmaking and bringing the

1166
00:54:13,639 --> 00:54:15,679
ball up the floor and having to generate offense that like,

1167
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,679
you can still make the defensive impact that everybody expected that.

1168
00:54:19,679 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: You can Scottie Barnes roll up. Like with Scotty Barnes's

1169
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,199
role at both ends this year be.

1170
00:54:24,159 --> 00:54:26,599
Speaker 2: The I don't know, I don't. I mean, I think

1171
00:54:26,599 --> 00:54:30,119
it's it's it's it's a positive that he was really

1172
00:54:30,159 --> 00:54:35,440
stressed beyond any reasonable limit offensively and I mean you

1173
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,159
can't say he objectively excelled, but certainly relative expectations. He

1174
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,400
was so much better at doing stuff that he was

1175
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,400
not like projected to be asked to do or expected

1176
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,079
to be good at. I think that's just a win

1177
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,599
because I don't think he like, I don't think suddenly

1178
00:54:49,679 --> 00:54:52,519
the all the defensive stuff and all the intangible stuff

1179
00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:54,800
is just like not there. I think it's you only

1180
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,599
have so much energy, right, like you can't you can't

1181
00:54:57,639 --> 00:55:00,159
ask him to do everything on both ends. So I

1182
00:55:00,159 --> 00:55:02,280
think it's a good thing. I do just wonder would

1183
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,840
he have won Rookie of the Year. Canipple has this

1184
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,519
exact same year, but the flag is just like Canipples

1185
00:55:07,559 --> 00:55:10,000
in an optimal role for what he does. He's next

1186
00:55:10,039 --> 00:55:13,360
to LaMelo ball in an offense that has enough threats

1187
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,320
around where he's not overburdened. I think he exceeded expectations

1188
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,800
as a playmaker too. Certainly Cinnipple exceeded expectations at everything.

1189
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,280
But I wonder if Flag had had a similarly like

1190
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,800
favorable setup, if if he would have won it. Anyway,

1191
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,480
I think it's possible. But this year by Canipple is

1192
00:55:31,679 --> 00:55:33,199
just like it's insane.

1193
00:55:33,599 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's been a better like it's a better

1194
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,480
screener than like a better self starter, and like Cooper Flag,

1195
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:42,960
most of his shots at the rim are going unassisted

1196
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,199
and he's actually been pretty efficient on his self created shots.

1197
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,159
Conniple has been more efficient and creates more shots at

1198
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:52,840
more levels for himself, even though it's not the crux

1199
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,159
of his game, like to be able to do that,

1200
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,039
and I think he's probably been better, Like I just underestimated.

1201
00:55:59,039 --> 00:56:01,119
Oh he's six seven, and that's a dude that's just

1202
00:56:01,159 --> 00:56:02,639
not going to be readily attacked.

1203
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,519
Speaker 3: Levin pleasantly surprised with that. VJ.

1204
00:56:05,639 --> 00:56:08,159
Speaker 1: Edgecomb is just a he has I don't know what

1205
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,679
it is, but he has it, and it's I like,

1206
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,519
flying in transition is fun. I appreciate a guard who

1207
00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:18,079
could be a lob threat as well. Just the fearlessness

1208
00:56:18,079 --> 00:56:20,159
with getting all three pointers. And I think he's done

1209
00:56:20,159 --> 00:56:23,320
a good job. He's been one of the least efficient

1210
00:56:23,559 --> 00:56:25,440
self creators in the league, but I think he's done

1211
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,280
a good job toggling between all these different lineups that

1212
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,519
Philly has thrown out where it's oh, you're either complimenting

1213
00:56:31,519 --> 00:56:34,239
Tyrese Maxey, oh you're slowing things down a little bit.

1214
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,800
With Joelle Embiid in the fold, he's just found ways

1215
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,280
to fit or fill in gaps or depending on what

1216
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,800
role the Sixers need from him, and the other thing

1217
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,840
that's just kind of it's not insane, but one of

1218
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,119
the theories I had posed I think I asked Kayln Cooper

1219
00:56:48,159 --> 00:56:50,199
or Sampson Folke about this is whether rookies are just

1220
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,360
getting better defensively than they used to be. He's been

1221
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,199
good defensively, which is a like in his He's not

1222
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,639
super huge, he's not even super strong. Yes, so for

1223
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,280
him to be there actually and to not have it's

1224
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,840
not like Philly has elite talent around him. Joel and

1225
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,440
bid one doesn't play as much in two, isn't Joel

1226
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,840
embiid of your At this point, this feels I think

1227
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,679
some people will make a case for Flag over Canipple.

1228
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,159
Speaker 3: I don't know, like this has to be the three.

1229
00:57:19,199 --> 00:57:20,519
Speaker 1: I don't think I could even make a case for

1230
00:57:20,639 --> 00:57:22,800
Dylan Harper to come in over Edgecomb, even if you

1231
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:24,400
think no, Harper will be the better pro.

1232
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 2: I agree. I think that That's the other weird thing

1233
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,480
about this is I still think Flag will be the

1234
00:57:29,519 --> 00:57:32,360
better pro than Cannipple, although it's this is an interesting

1235
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,960
one because it's this is a bad comparison, but it's

1236
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,760
a little bit like the Jada versus Pawllo thing. It's

1237
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,320
it's bad, but hear me out. So, like, I think

1238
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,079
Canipple is just locked in as he's gonna be great

1239
00:57:46,159 --> 00:57:48,840
at the role that he has. I don't feel like

1240
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,000
they're ever gonna get to a point where Carnipple is

1241
00:57:51,039 --> 00:57:55,440
like your top offensive thread or your top defender. So

1242
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:59,199
and I think Flag just is gonna be that probably,

1243
00:57:59,639 --> 00:58:02,320
So like his role is way harder to excel at,

1244
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,679
but I think there's a chance he will, Whereas I'm

1245
00:58:04,719 --> 00:58:07,079
dead certain Canipple will excel at the role he's in.

1246
00:58:07,159 --> 00:58:09,719
So it's like which which do you value more? I

1247
00:58:09,719 --> 00:58:12,400
think probably you just it's it's pretty clearly flagged to me.

1248
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,800
But to your point on Edgecomb, there's like, no, there's

1249
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,880
no other rookie that played a major role slash starting

1250
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,239
role for a halfway decent team like.

1251
00:58:22,159 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: This, Grant, they've been like a top five team for

1252
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:26,159
sixty games.

1253
00:58:26,239 --> 00:58:26,719
Speaker 3: That's what I mean.

1254
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 2: I'm saying, like he his his lift was so much

1255
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:31,599
heavier than like what we can just get to the

1256
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,280
all rookie stuff. Like I think in some order we

1257
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,519
both have we both have Harper. Who Yeah, I think

1258
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,199
if you told me whose next ten years do you want?

1259
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:44,400
Edgecombor Harper? I think I'm taking Harper and I would

1260
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,239
have a conversation about him versus Kniple.

1261
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: To be honest, well, I was gonna ask that that

1262
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,360
this has become one of the trendy talking points.

1263
00:58:50,519 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 3: I hadn't really given it much thought.

1264
00:58:52,719 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: But if you were the Spurs, knowing what you know now,

1265
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:57,960
do you still take Dylan Harper?

1266
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 3: Do you take Canipple?

1267
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,119
Speaker 1: And I think most people have said you still take

1268
00:59:02,159 --> 00:59:02,960
Harper because of.

1269
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 3: The long term play.

1270
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, if that is what you're basing the decision off,

1271
00:59:07,639 --> 00:59:11,320
for sure, But knowing that you have Fox, Steph Castle,

1272
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,039
Devin Vessel, if you put Canipple on the Spurs right now,

1273
00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:18,840
they are more likely to win a title in this

1274
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:19,920
year or next season.

1275
00:59:20,599 --> 00:59:22,239
Speaker 3: I think that would be my guess.

1276
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 2: I think that's right, just just an absolute premium, premium

1277
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,960
lights out shooter that can do other stuff. I mean,

1278
00:59:31,199 --> 00:59:33,119
if you're knocking the Spurs, it's that you're not sure

1279
00:59:33,159 --> 00:59:38,000
about Castle and Harper hitting their threes. And if you

1280
00:59:38,039 --> 00:59:41,400
have Canipple in place of Harper, it's just like him

1281
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,559
out there with Champagnee and like you could put some

1282
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:47,320
crazy spacing around Wimbin Yama. So I think you're right

1283
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:51,159
about that, Harper, I see you. Harper's a lock. We

1284
00:59:51,239 --> 00:59:54,719
did differ and this was my toughest of anything on

1285
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,800
the rookie ballot. You've got Ace Bailey, I've got Cedric Coward.

1286
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,639
I'm yeah, I keep flip a coin. Honestly, what made

1287
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:05,079
you go with Bailey? Did you have a strong feeling there?

1288
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,079
Speaker 1: I thought he's I think he's actually been. So I

1289
01:00:08,119 --> 01:00:11,199
think one you get into I know this isn't everything,

1290
01:00:11,239 --> 01:00:13,400
but you get into the minutes played. And so Ace

1291
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,119
Bailey at nineteen hundred minutes versus Cedric Coward at fifteen hundred,

1292
01:00:17,199 --> 01:00:20,400
So that's a big difference. Ace Bailey his role has

1293
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,519
not actually been that hard for most of the year,

1294
01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:25,079
and I know he's below average efficiency, but the Jazz

1295
01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:26,760
have put the ball in his hands more and I've

1296
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,679
just seen more, Like I've seen more flashes of more

1297
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,280
where it's oh, look at what he's doing as a rebounder,

1298
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,000
where Cedric Coward it's okay, like he can move off

1299
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:37,840
the ball a little bit. He's hit his threes, but

1300
01:00:38,039 --> 01:00:39,760
not so much after the All Star Break he's been

1301
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,119
in now the lineup though, we know what he could do. Defensively,

1302
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,239
I think Ace Bailey's been the better defensive disruptor, Like

1303
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:49,440
he can block, he could block a shot. I've seen more.

1304
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,320
I guess I've seen Ace Bailey one. There's the volume,

1305
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,119
but I've seen As Bailey cover more bases, even though

1306
01:00:55,159 --> 01:00:58,440
he hasn't been more efficient while doing so. And when

1307
01:00:58,480 --> 01:00:59,960
you get to that, when you factor in the sand

1308
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,440
and then the fact that you can we've seen the

1309
01:01:02,519 --> 01:01:04,880
Jazz do it later in the year. Oh, you can

1310
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,360
put the ball in his hands and ask him to create. Well,

1311
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:09,480
that's not something centric Coward's going to do. When you

1312
01:01:09,519 --> 01:01:11,480
get when the margins are this, then I think it's

1313
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,440
okay to say, who do you believe is going to

1314
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,280
be the better, more impactful pro I do believe that's

1315
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,000
going to be as Bailey, and so that that helped

1316
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:20,000
decide it as well too.

1317
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 2: This is another one. I think you're probably right. It's

1318
01:01:23,519 --> 01:01:26,800
the same argument though, like Bailey, I think Coward has

1319
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,480
so many ways to succeed. But I don't think Coward's

1320
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,119
ever going to be more than your second or third

1321
01:01:31,199 --> 01:01:34,360
best player. Whereas Bailey, you can squint and be like,

1322
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,280
that's a number two option at worst, and he maybe

1323
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,239
gets so good that he's actually going to run a

1324
01:01:39,239 --> 01:01:40,880
lot of offense for are you Coward? I don't see

1325
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,039
getting there, So Coward, I don't know. I just trust

1326
01:01:44,039 --> 01:01:46,440
the player type a little more. And I'm not totally

1327
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,639
sure what Bailey's player type is yet, which you.

1328
01:01:49,599 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 1: Could make the case because if you start looking at

1329
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,119
the Jazz next season, we're running into like a lower

1330
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:57,559
end Nipple or Harper. For the Spurs debate, Coward might

1331
01:01:57,599 --> 01:02:00,599
be the better fit for Utah next year because the

1332
01:02:00,639 --> 01:02:02,679
things he does defensively when you look at who he's

1333
01:02:02,719 --> 01:02:05,360
expected to play with when it's gonna be Lowry, Jaron

1334
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,280
Jackson Junior, Tesler, Kiante George. I don't know if you

1335
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:13,400
want Ace Bailey like doing like shouldering that workload defensively

1336
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,119
on the flip side, though you do seem like in

1337
01:02:16,199 --> 01:02:19,480
that lineup with those four, Okay, Kyanta George has the ball,

1338
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,480
you probably want someone else, especially if he's gonna be

1339
01:02:22,559 --> 01:02:24,679
your day facto two who could do more with the

1340
01:02:24,719 --> 01:02:26,679
ball in his hands, like not just having Lowry or

1341
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:27,719
Jaron Jackson Junior.

1342
01:02:28,119 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 3: That to me has already been Ace Bailey.

1343
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: And also, I keep coming back to this isn't necessarily

1344
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,880
fair to Cedric Coward, but Ace Bailey checking so many

1345
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:37,880
boxes where I thought that he was gonna go into

1346
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,639
Utah his on ball share was gonna be through the roof,

1347
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:42,920
and it was just no like he did for three

1348
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,719
quarters of the season, like he was subsisting on all

1349
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,199
the ancillary things and again not the most efficient player,

1350
01:02:49,239 --> 01:02:51,199
but his ability to do that, I was just like

1351
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,760
I I didn't expect him to check so many of

1352
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,280
those boxes, and so that's probably coloring my view.

1353
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 3: Two.

1354
01:02:56,639 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do wonder too, I think ending up in

1355
01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:02,719
Utah was a better result for him than Washington. It

1356
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:04,920
just seems like where he wanted to go, right, So, like,

1357
01:03:05,559 --> 01:03:08,079
I wonder what Bailey's season would have looked like in Washington,

1358
01:03:08,119 --> 01:03:11,079
where I think he would have I don't know that

1359
01:03:11,239 --> 01:03:13,480
that that that might be an interesting sliding doors moment.

1360
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,199
Do you want to get to the second team here?

1361
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:21,280
Obviously you've got Coward, I've got Bailey second team. Other

1362
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,119
other than that, I think, oh no, we don't. We

1363
01:03:23,159 --> 01:03:26,320
do have one other difference. So I went with do

1364
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:26,719
we have two?

1365
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,519
Speaker 3: I'll have to fix something in post, but I have Chet.

1366
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 2: How old do you think Chet Holmgren is?

1367
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,599
Speaker 1: This was honestly one of I think, just an all

1368
01:03:38,639 --> 01:03:41,159
time great rookie. Who's the last rookie that just finished

1369
01:03:41,159 --> 01:03:42,440
top two in defensive players?

1370
01:03:42,679 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 2: Pretty I mean pretty impressive. Yeah, so I'll go through mine.

1371
01:03:47,079 --> 01:03:49,800
I got Colin Murray, Boyles, Derek Queen, Maxim right now,

1372
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:54,079
and I got Jago Joeman as my fifth. Not an

1373
01:03:54,119 --> 01:03:57,320
easy inclusion there. The others were like, I mean, this

1374
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:59,840
is this is not a great second team crop all

1375
01:04:00,079 --> 01:04:02,000
to say, I don't love a whole lot of it.

1376
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:07,639
But you had se On James instead of Joeman, which

1377
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,960
I get. I guess Joelemen I may be pricing in

1378
01:04:12,079 --> 01:04:14,920
a little more like he's someone that if if he

1379
01:04:15,119 --> 01:04:17,480
if he hits, I think has a more valuable role

1380
01:04:17,559 --> 01:04:21,119
than James, who's for sure a really rugged, good defender

1381
01:04:21,119 --> 01:04:23,000
that seems to be able to shoot and can dribble

1382
01:04:23,039 --> 01:04:27,119
a little bit. Joeman. I think I think Joeman's gonna

1383
01:04:27,119 --> 01:04:30,000
shoot it great. I don't know about anything else, and

1384
01:04:30,079 --> 01:04:34,239
like the connective passing, but he did enough from deep

1385
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,719
to me to at least like I'm still I'm still interested.

1386
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:39,840
I'm still would like to be in the Aegor Joman

1387
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:43,920
business up sidewise, where James is like a solid, more

1388
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,920
known commodity. Not that that makes him the wrong pick.

1389
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:48,199
I just kind of went the other way.

1390
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:50,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think having close to what's going to be

1391
01:04:50,559 --> 01:04:53,000
a five hundred minute difference was a big deal for me.

1392
01:04:53,079 --> 01:04:57,800
But his him, his defensive like the workload he shoulders

1393
01:04:57,800 --> 01:04:59,840
on defense is through the roof. He's hit enough of

1394
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:02,000
his threes for me and you could say, all right,

1395
01:05:02,039 --> 01:05:04,639
he doesn't dribble and my Yegor Joemen is the better passer.

1396
01:05:04,679 --> 01:05:07,079
But I think he'll get to a point where defenses

1397
01:05:07,159 --> 01:05:09,559
respect his jump shot so much that he will be

1398
01:05:09,559 --> 01:05:12,199
able to make stuff happen on his drives. That was

1399
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,400
not happening this year, even when he had some more

1400
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,119
open space on his drives, and so I went with

1401
01:05:17,159 --> 01:05:19,440
like kind of the more bankable he played, more contributed

1402
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:20,880
to a winning team on a kid.

1403
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,119
Speaker 2: He was on a team that didn't just throw it

1404
01:05:23,159 --> 01:05:23,960
away from day one.

1405
01:05:24,599 --> 01:05:27,079
Speaker 1: I also I thought about Ryan Kalkbrenner here was starting

1406
01:05:27,079 --> 01:05:29,400
for Charlotte a lot of the time this year. I

1407
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,079
actually had Drake Powell on my longer list as well,

1408
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,039
like as a broken guy. Joemen was of course on

1409
01:05:35,119 --> 01:05:38,400
there as well. We can't forget about chet Holmgrin either,

1410
01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:44,960
Will Riley, Will Richard Mohammed Diawara. Hugo Gonzales was really

1411
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:48,719
good this year. Jeremiah Fears was kind of a tough cut.

1412
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,119
He shot the three ball better post All Star Break.

1413
01:05:52,199 --> 01:05:54,159
But him and Garret Queen, I don't really know what

1414
01:05:54,159 --> 01:05:56,199
the plan is in New Orleans. I don't think he

1415
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,159
was a fantastic passer, but I don't know what their

1416
01:05:59,199 --> 01:06:01,920
game plan is for either of those two at the time.

1417
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,519
Speaker 2: I think Derek Queen does not work if he's never

1418
01:06:04,559 --> 01:06:06,800
gonna shoot it, and I'm not sure he's ever gonna

1419
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,199
shoot it. All that none of the other stuff that

1420
01:06:09,239 --> 01:06:11,559
makes him interesting plays all that well. It's a little

1421
01:06:11,639 --> 01:06:13,880
the opposite of jentleman, where like if he's gonna be

1422
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,239
that good a shooter from deep, it opens things up.

1423
01:06:16,639 --> 01:06:18,639
You don't have to be like Klay Thompson was not

1424
01:06:18,679 --> 01:06:21,119
a good driver, but the way that he had to

1425
01:06:21,159 --> 01:06:23,400
be guarded, like he could get past his guy pretty

1426
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:25,760
easily a lot of the time. I mean, even Tyre's Halbert,

1427
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:27,679
and I think the threat of his three doesn't have

1428
01:06:27,679 --> 01:06:31,559
elite quickness that that helps, Like Queen's a different position,

1429
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:33,800
but if he's not a threat to make shots and

1430
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:37,760
you can just ignore him, like how does any of

1431
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:41,000
this work? So I and he's on my second team,

1432
01:06:41,079 --> 01:06:44,360
but I just have real I have more reservations about

1433
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,159
his long term future than I do about Fears actually,

1434
01:06:47,199 --> 01:06:49,480
and all anyone talks about is how small guards are dead.

1435
01:06:49,519 --> 01:06:51,719
And I still am a little higher on Fears is

1436
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,280
long term outlook than I am on Queen's.

1437
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:56,239
Speaker 3: Where are you at with Maxime? Right?

1438
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 2: No, long term, I feel like there is literally no

1439
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:02,599
way to know if anything he did matters this season,

1440
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:12,039
Like I would say, big picture offense first centers, not

1441
01:07:12,159 --> 01:07:15,760
a great player type to be. I'm not convinced that

1442
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:18,199
he's going to be part of a good defense. Ever,

1443
01:07:19,159 --> 01:07:20,840
I could be wrong. It's that's the thing. It's like

1444
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,480
the environment in Sacramento this year was the coach like

1445
01:07:23,519 --> 01:07:26,960
maybe probably worst coach in the league, just terrible supporting

1446
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,519
talent guys. I just like, I don't know what to

1447
01:07:29,559 --> 01:07:32,320
do with him. The numbers kind of are undeniable, I guess,

1448
01:07:32,559 --> 01:07:34,880
in so far as numbers can be undeniable for I.

1449
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: Mean, sixty on Tues when you're like one of the

1450
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,599
least physical big right when it comes to like he's

1451
01:07:39,639 --> 01:07:40,760
just gonna get up a floater or.

1452
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,559
Speaker 2: Shot rather than try to he has real talent, right,

1453
01:07:43,679 --> 01:07:46,239
we agree on that. I just I don't know how

1454
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:48,599
to project any of them. Maybe that's maybe I'm that's

1455
01:07:48,639 --> 01:07:50,960
that shouldn't be relevant, you know, the whole Like I

1456
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:53,639
don't know what he is, but I even can't judge

1457
01:07:53,639 --> 01:07:57,480
his rookie season because I think his situation is just

1458
01:07:58,519 --> 01:08:01,199
it doesn't reveal anything. They the Kings played the whole

1459
01:08:01,199 --> 01:08:03,199
season like it was the last week of the year

1460
01:08:03,239 --> 01:08:04,519
and they were taking you know what I mean, Like,

1461
01:08:04,519 --> 01:08:06,400
there's just there's no way to know.

1462
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 1: I think Colin Murray Boyles is gonna get all left

1463
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:12,719
off a lot of all rookie teams because of the minutes.

1464
01:08:12,719 --> 01:08:15,280
But I think he hit more of his threes than

1465
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,079
you would have thought while dealing with a hand injury.

1466
01:08:17,119 --> 01:08:20,439
And he was borderline like part of a dominant defensive

1467
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:22,880
front court with Scottie Barnes when those two were on

1468
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,319
the floor together. So he was actually an auto inclusion

1469
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:27,760
for me. But I think that because what did he

1470
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,520
end up with with minutes play this year? Since he

1471
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,000
he's done for the season, right, he's at eleven hundred,

1472
01:08:33,039 --> 01:08:33,640
eleven to fifty.

1473
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 3: That was more than I thought he'd be. That's enough.

1474
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,560
Speaker 2: So for me, given the given the competition, that's enough.

1475
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,239
Speaker 1: Hugan Zales probably could have made things more interested if

1476
01:08:41,239 --> 01:08:43,399
he crept into like that or you want of the

1477
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:44,560
top fifteen most.

1478
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:47,119
Speaker 3: Played rookies, But yeah, yeah, oh Will.

1479
01:08:47,119 --> 01:08:49,319
Speaker 1: I did want to shout out Will Riley. I know

1480
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:52,239
he has like the ultimate license in Washington. I love

1481
01:08:52,319 --> 01:08:54,680
watching Will Riley. I see like a little bit of

1482
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:56,680
Keijan George in him. But he's gonna I think he'll

1483
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,600
be worse defensively, but he can do some pretty daring

1484
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:01,479
stuff on the offensive end.

1485
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's an interesting player. I do think there's a

1486
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:08,560
really good chance that several guys on our third non

1487
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:11,680
existent third team just vault past a lot of guys

1488
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:14,560
we actually had make first and second team, maybe not

1489
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,359
first team past second team, just because I think Gonzalez

1490
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:21,000
is a perfect example. Like he was on a good team,

1491
01:09:21,039 --> 01:09:22,560
so he just didn't get to play that much. If

1492
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:24,880
he's on a terrible team, are we talking?

1493
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:25,319
Speaker 3: Are we like?

1494
01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 2: Is he in all defense?

1495
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:27,039
Speaker 1: Like?

1496
01:09:27,239 --> 01:09:29,359
Speaker 2: I don't know. There's just there's a lot of weird

1497
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:31,199
team situations to judge.

1498
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 1: I think we're on to most improved player. What's your

1499
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:35,600
ballot look like?

1500
01:09:36,079 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 3: Boy on this one?

1501
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 2: So my ballot is probably gonna I don't know. I

1502
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:47,079
have Danny Avdia one. I'll make the case even though

1503
01:09:47,079 --> 01:09:48,680
there's a good chance he does not qualify for this

1504
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:54,079
because he'll fall a game short. The jump from a

1505
01:09:54,319 --> 01:09:57,640
very good player to All star slash like fringe all

1506
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:06,760
NBA first option, offensive creator, playmaker, it's that's massive. He

1507
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:09,520
hinted at this a little bit last year, but he

1508
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:12,479
came into this season you know, knock it if you want.

1509
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:15,239
His foul drawing craft was just at another level. The

1510
01:10:15,319 --> 01:10:17,600
drive game was among the best in the league. Like

1511
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:20,319
these are just different elevated skills that he didn't really

1512
01:10:20,359 --> 01:10:23,159
have or show consistently, and they turned him into one

1513
01:10:23,159 --> 01:10:25,640
of the best offensive you know players in the league,

1514
01:10:26,279 --> 01:10:28,520
and he didn't have any shooting help around him for

1515
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:31,479
the vast majority of the year. I just think I

1516
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:33,960
get it if if you think, because I did this

1517
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,039
with Jalen Johnson a little bit, if you thought like

1518
01:10:36,119 --> 01:10:38,560
he kind of did this last year towards the end,

1519
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,880
So is this really an improvement, I'm receptive to that.

1520
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:43,920
I just think the jump he made is massive. I

1521
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:48,800
have Alexander Walker second, who similar leap. I actually had

1522
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:50,880
a couple numbers here that were like I actually like

1523
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:55,600
had to chuckle when I put him together. He hold on,

1524
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:58,479
let me find him, well, Vamp, I don't know, Maybe

1525
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:00,600
I'll find him while you were talking later. But Alexander

1526
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:02,239
Walker went from like a good reserve to a high

1527
01:11:02,319 --> 01:11:05,439
end starter that contributes on both ends. And then Jalen

1528
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:10,000
Duran like, damn your doublet scoring average, he's my third

1529
01:11:10,079 --> 01:11:14,319
and figured out how to score by himself by driving

1530
01:11:14,359 --> 01:11:18,479
the basketball, which he could not do before. I don't think.

1531
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:20,560
I don't think you can have a bout without Jalen.

1532
01:11:20,359 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 3: Duran on it.

1533
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,520
Speaker 2: But he didn't win either of ours. So you have

1534
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:26,399
one guy different than me, which again I respect.

1535
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,239
Speaker 1: So I had jailed during number two for basically all

1536
01:11:29,239 --> 01:11:31,039
the reasons that you mentioned. I mean, the really big

1537
01:11:31,079 --> 01:11:33,520
deal is the number I've written down here. So he's

1538
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,119
shooting seventy one point two percent at the rim this

1539
01:11:36,239 --> 01:11:39,600
year without Kate Cunningham on the floor. That's over six

1540
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,800
percentage points better than where he was last year without

1541
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,520
Kate Cunningham. He's hitting more of his short mid rangers

1542
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:47,560
without Kate Cunningham on the floor, and all those looks,

1543
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,479
they're going more unassistant than they are without Kate on

1544
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,319
the floor. Some of the offense is actually like the

1545
01:11:53,359 --> 01:11:56,760
lineup's been fined eighty fourth percentile. When Duran plays without

1546
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:00,199
kid Now the half court is pretty inefficient. But to

1547
01:12:00,279 --> 01:12:02,279
even be able to be part of that tringing to

1548
01:12:02,359 --> 01:12:04,239
end possessions or help your team get out in transition,

1549
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,439
or be a big that can run the floor, that matters.

1550
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,760
I have naw winning it. I just you mentioned it,

1551
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,159
he goes from like a very good player to a

1552
01:12:13,199 --> 01:12:15,680
high level starter when you start to look at the

1553
01:12:16,039 --> 01:12:19,800
like the change in his usage more unassisted buckets he

1554
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:23,319
was top six and unassisted rim attempts per seventy five possessions.

1555
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,319
He's drawing more fouls. The two things that stood out

1556
01:12:26,359 --> 01:12:29,479
to me is so year over year true usage change,

1557
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:33,239
So again we're factoring in scoring possessions plus playmaking, top

1558
01:12:33,279 --> 01:12:37,359
fifteen in true usage change. He was also eighth grant

1559
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:41,439
in the increase of the opponent matchup difficulty guarding him.

1560
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 3: I like your Yeah, year, that's a great say.

1561
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,319
Speaker 2: So the defense just took him much more seriously than

1562
01:12:46,359 --> 01:12:48,399
he used to. Plus he started so he was seeing

1563
01:12:48,399 --> 01:12:49,760
first unit defeners too, So.

1564
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that accounts for a lot of it too.

1565
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:54,319
But like eighth in the entire league as kind of

1566
01:12:54,319 --> 01:12:56,840
a jump. And then the other thing was the Hawks

1567
01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:58,840
offense is still sort of imperfect. I'm at a point

1568
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:00,840
where I trust their defense more than their offense just

1569
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:02,760
because they have to get too creative in the half

1570
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:04,920
court seventieth percentile when he.

1571
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 3: Played without Trey or Jalen Johnson.

1572
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 1: So when either like both those guys off the floor,

1573
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:12,640
you're still in the seventy percent tile. I don't want

1574
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:14,960
to like dig the knife deeper here, but what are

1575
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:15,800
we saying about.

1576
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:16,600
Speaker 3: The Timberwolves right now?

1577
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:19,560
Speaker 1: If they don't like this is because he's on the Hawks,

1578
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:21,840
which needed a bigger boost to begin with. The Timberlves

1579
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:23,960
were just in the conference finals. I'm not saying he

1580
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,239
would have turned into a twenty points per game scorer

1581
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:30,600
in Minnesota, but like this is the type like he

1582
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:34,119
he is, the get over the hump player, whether it's

1583
01:13:34,159 --> 01:13:38,279
for Minnesota or another team. He's immediately on I don't know,

1584
01:13:38,319 --> 01:13:40,239
one of the ten best contracts in the NBA the

1585
01:13:40,279 --> 01:13:43,800
mid level for the next three years. So he's my

1586
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,680
most improved guy. I have Ryan Rollins third. This is

1587
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:48,399
where I struggle with and what I think. I think

1588
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,239
one Ryan Rollins deserves it, and I think he played

1589
01:13:51,359 --> 01:13:53,760
enough minutes last year for me to say, hey, he's

1590
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:56,960
not working off this low base nine. He's shooting almost

1591
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:01,960
forty percent on step back threes. He's driving against tougher defenders.

1592
01:14:02,399 --> 01:14:04,760
And here are the players with as many points and

1593
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:09,560
assists out of drives this year, SGA, harden Kid and Afdia.

1594
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,840
So he's been a huge part of what the Bucks

1595
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,319
are doing, but it did get me. With some of

1596
01:14:14,399 --> 01:14:17,920
the other names that I thought about, Donnish Jenkins got

1597
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:20,600
Colin Gillespie are probably the most popular ones that'll come

1598
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:24,800
up for most improved. Not only do I throw out

1599
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:26,840
like I'm not it's gonna take. The bar needs to

1600
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,600
be pretty high for me to consider a sophomore everone

1601
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:33,039
only just won't consider them. But I view most improved

1602
01:14:33,079 --> 01:14:36,520
as you have a pretty meaningful sample already and you

1603
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:38,800
already played a meaningful role and got better to whereas

1604
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:41,960
someone like a Colin Gillespie or a Donnish jan like

1605
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,720
to throw someone into that is that's a breakout player

1606
01:14:46,119 --> 01:14:48,479
of the year to me, rather than the most improved.

1607
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,399
I think like a gnaw A durn A, Denny Avdya,

1608
01:14:52,039 --> 01:14:53,880
who I just feel like most of his improvement came

1609
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:56,439
last season for me, for like sixty games or whatever.

1610
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,800
But I think that's more in the spirit. Even even

1611
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:03,319
if I know they remember the case of Steph Curry

1612
01:15:03,359 --> 01:15:06,199
is actually the most improved player, I actually think that

1613
01:15:06,199 --> 01:15:09,800
that's a stronger case of Superstar who went to unanimous

1614
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,159
MVP as a more compelling most improved player case to me, then, yeah,

1615
01:15:13,399 --> 01:15:16,159
look at this player who was working off this like

1616
01:15:16,359 --> 01:15:18,479
don Van Klington would be a good example as a sophomore,

1617
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:20,439
but that's a bad example because it is a sophomore.

1618
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,720
I find those cases more compelling, though, No, I think

1619
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:24,560
I agree with you.

1620
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:27,479
Speaker 2: It's it's it's sometimes easier though, Like just to take

1621
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,640
Rolins who scores six a game last year to seventeen

1622
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:32,600
this year and two assists a five and a half

1623
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:35,399
and now he's shooting forty one percent, like that can

1624
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:38,399
feel like a bigger improvement than say Avdia, whose numbers

1625
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,039
I did find. I'll just throw him out there now

1626
01:15:40,079 --> 01:15:41,319
like you got a lot of them. I have a

1627
01:15:41,319 --> 01:15:44,000
couple just like that jumped out to me and making

1628
01:15:44,079 --> 01:15:46,199
his case usage rate went from twenty three to twenty

1629
01:15:46,319 --> 01:15:48,680
nine percent. That's a meaningful jump because the thirty percent

1630
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,680
usage is like the magic number of oh, you're doing everything.

1631
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:55,560
He's right there. He came off the bench eighteen times

1632
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,239
last year. I forgot about this. Tony Ovdia was not

1633
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:01,000
a guaranteed starter all of last year.

1634
01:16:01,399 --> 01:16:05,119
Speaker 1: Well, now we have to do that. Neither is good Henderson, though,

1635
01:16:05,279 --> 01:16:06,199
so when you kind of.

1636
01:16:06,119 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 2: Factor in the price, but I'm just saying, like I'm

1637
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:10,399
trying to push back a little bit, even though I

1638
01:16:10,399 --> 01:16:13,960
made it myself against the argument that well Avdia showed

1639
01:16:14,199 --> 01:16:16,800
down the stretch last year that he could do something

1640
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:19,840
like this, It's like, yeah, but he also there were,

1641
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:22,359
like he there were points where we weren't one hundred

1642
01:16:22,399 --> 01:16:25,159
percent sure. The Bub Carrington draft pick trade wasn't like

1643
01:16:25,199 --> 01:16:27,119
a win win, and now it's just like, yeah, you

1644
01:16:27,159 --> 01:16:29,199
gave up the guy on the best contract in the

1645
01:16:29,239 --> 01:16:34,199
league for basically nothing. The other so the gnaw stuff. Also,

1646
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:37,199
first time Alexander Walker's been a full time starter is

1647
01:16:37,239 --> 01:16:40,520
this year his usage went from sixteen to twenty four.

1648
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:44,520
He's cut his turnovers despite the increased usage, highest free

1649
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:47,680
throw rate. Ever, there's like, I don't know, twenty five

1650
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:51,039
guys in the entire league averaging twenty on sixty percent

1651
01:16:51,039 --> 01:16:53,359
true shooting. He's certainly the only one in the most

1652
01:16:53,359 --> 01:16:57,239
improved conversation, So that's a new thing for him. Yes,

1653
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:02,199
do you want to talk about the I'm sorry I

1654
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:05,880
got diverted myself from I agree with you that it's

1655
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,920
harder to gauge the guys that went from are you

1656
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:11,239
an NBA player to oh, yeah, you are, and maybe

1657
01:17:11,279 --> 01:17:12,039
you're a starter.

1658
01:17:12,199 --> 01:17:13,279
Speaker 3: Namey as katea cool.

1659
01:17:13,399 --> 01:17:15,039
Speaker 1: I just don't feel like that's in the spirit of

1660
01:17:15,239 --> 01:17:16,399
most improved.

1661
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 2: How do we differentiate Jalen Johnson and Danny Avdia. You

1662
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,000
don't have either of them on your top three, but

1663
01:17:23,079 --> 01:17:25,720
I assume you've got both kind of his down ballot thoughts.

1664
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:29,359
What do we do because their leaps have been similar,

1665
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:31,560
the difference would be that Johnson is doing it for

1666
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:36,000
a much better team. I just I'm hoping you can.

1667
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:37,880
Do you want to talk about that at all? Did

1668
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,079
you have any thoughts of Johnson versus Ovdia or do

1669
01:17:41,119 --> 01:17:42,920
you not view them the same way like I do?

1670
01:17:46,279 --> 01:17:47,920
Speaker 1: I know he didn't qualify in all these years, but

1671
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:50,000
I found it funny that Jalen Johnson this would be

1672
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,760
like the third year that he could make a most

1673
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:52,800
improved player? Right?

1674
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 2: So does that mean that is that an argument that like, well,

1675
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:58,880
he's not a consideration because he kind of just has

1676
01:17:58,920 --> 01:17:59,680
been roughly.

1677
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:02,159
Speaker 1: I don't know for him and Avia they weren't they

1678
01:18:02,159 --> 01:18:04,159
were they would be more down ballot guys for me,

1679
01:18:04,199 --> 01:18:06,800
because I don't I think that their most pronounced leaps

1680
01:18:07,239 --> 01:18:09,439
came last year and it just so like, and it

1681
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:12,239
came for a long enough like. It's similar to the

1682
01:18:12,319 --> 01:18:15,640
Rollins logic of I think he can belong in the

1683
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:17,800
most improved player discussion because he gave us enough of

1684
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,479
a sample size last year and then improved off of that,

1685
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:23,880
Whereas I still think the most material part of the

1686
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:27,960
Jalen Johnson and Denny Aavia leaps have already happened. What

1687
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,560
we're seeing is more of a scale up from volume

1688
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:33,079
rather than you know, Ryan Rollins was not hitting some

1689
01:18:33,159 --> 01:18:35,640
of the shots last year that he was hitting this year.

1690
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:39,239
Not the Alexander Walker's entire role kind of just shifted here,

1691
01:18:39,399 --> 01:18:41,079
like ditto for for Duran.

1692
01:18:42,199 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 2: If Keante George qualifies, where is he on your ballot?

1693
01:18:45,199 --> 01:18:48,000
Speaker 1: He probably he's in the top three. He's definitely above Rollins.

1694
01:18:48,039 --> 01:18:49,920
I don't know where he finishes next to Turn and

1695
01:18:50,199 --> 01:18:51,079
he might be one.

1696
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:55,720
Speaker 2: He might be one. Just he's one where I think

1697
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,119
he was. I don't know. We probably regarded him as

1698
01:18:58,159 --> 01:19:01,279
like that guy's a bad player, Like he's not helpful player, right,

1699
01:19:01,359 --> 01:19:05,000
and now he's He looked so good before getting hurt

1700
01:19:05,039 --> 01:19:08,000
that the Jazz traded for Jaron Jackson Junior because they're

1701
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:10,359
ready to win, largely because they have their point guard.

1702
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,279
So like, that's I mean, the numbers are what they are,

1703
01:19:13,319 --> 01:19:16,880
the foul drawing, the efficiency went up. Still a bad defender,

1704
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:19,960
but just to go from I think this guy's hurtful

1705
01:19:20,119 --> 01:19:23,000
to he's like, he's the reason we're pivoting our whole

1706
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:27,079
franchise towards winning. He's a reason. That's a pretty big jump.

1707
01:19:27,319 --> 01:19:29,279
I think he might have been one on my ball.

1708
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:33,319
Speaker 1: He's one of the most fascinating rookie extension candidates for me.

1709
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:34,840
This often, I don't even know if he gets one,

1710
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:37,600
because what is the You're going off one season if

1711
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:41,600
you're Utah of this guy's impacting quality basketball, let's say

1712
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,680
that quality offense. But also if you're him, it's like,

1713
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:48,680
why are you accepting less than what Dyson Daniels got.

1714
01:19:48,239 --> 01:19:51,920
Speaker 2: It feels like one where they're going to be a

1715
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:54,600
deal that makes sense for George makes no sense for

1716
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:56,680
the Jazz and vice versa. So they're just going to

1717
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:58,279
restrictive free agency they have to.

1718
01:19:59,159 --> 01:20:01,159
Speaker 1: Most of it proves always tough, though, did you have

1719
01:20:01,159 --> 01:20:04,079
anybody else that you considered, whether it be the so

1720
01:20:04,079 --> 01:20:04,920
A j Mitchell.

1721
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:07,680
Speaker 2: Doesn't qualify either, right, because he's fallen short of the

1722
01:20:07,680 --> 01:20:09,560
game's played. He's a second year guy. He's not on

1723
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:13,640
your ballot. I get it. Anybody else, Cata, we talked

1724
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:17,680
about Jalen Tyson. That's another second year guy. I think

1725
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:20,920
that's it. You mentioned Jenkins. I think we've covered it.

1726
01:20:22,079 --> 01:20:24,960
Speaker 3: Dope. Let's head over to six man of the year.

1727
01:20:25,039 --> 01:20:26,359
What's your ballot look like, sir?

1728
01:20:27,319 --> 01:20:32,159
Speaker 2: Uh So? I have Mitchell here number one. I think

1729
01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:35,680
it's not quite right to say that this guy ran

1730
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:37,800
the offense when Shay wasn't on the floor, but it's

1731
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:40,479
also not totally wrong, like there were long stretches where

1732
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:44,239
he was really tasked with a major playmaking role on

1733
01:20:44,319 --> 01:20:46,880
a team who if they have a weakness that's still

1734
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:51,640
it is the generating offense without Shay, and with Jada

1735
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:54,119
missing so much time too, that doesn't help either. So

1736
01:20:54,159 --> 01:20:56,279
I gave it to him. I have readed Shepherd two,

1737
01:20:57,359 --> 01:21:00,479
and I have Isaiah Stewart third. I toy with putting

1738
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:03,279
him way higher earlier this year and then backed off

1739
01:21:03,319 --> 01:21:06,079
of it, so I'm kind of over correcting. The numbers

1740
01:21:06,119 --> 01:21:08,159
really aren't there for him like they might be for

1741
01:21:08,239 --> 01:21:11,039
some others. But I just think his his impact as

1742
01:21:11,079 --> 01:21:13,880
a rim protector, as a defender, as like a tone setter,

1743
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:16,039
as all that stuff for the Pistons. Like everything we

1744
01:21:16,119 --> 01:21:18,479
love so much about the Pistons that isn't kid Cunningham.

1745
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:20,359
I think you can trace a lot of it to

1746
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:23,880
Stuart and his influence and his defensive impact. So I

1747
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:27,720
gave him a third third place nod there. I don't know.

1748
01:21:28,119 --> 01:21:30,279
I don't have your number one on my top three.

1749
01:21:30,319 --> 01:21:31,439
So maybe make that case.

1750
01:21:32,359 --> 01:21:34,600
Speaker 1: Uh no, how about that. I'm not just gonna do

1751
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:35,760
it because told me to.

1752
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 2: I have to read Shepherd. Who are you?

1753
01:21:38,159 --> 01:21:38,520
Speaker 3: What do you?

1754
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:40,600
Speaker 2: What do you truly believe in? If read Shepherd's not

1755
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:41,159
your number.

1756
01:21:41,239 --> 01:21:43,439
Speaker 1: Start, you know what he's And this is part of

1757
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:45,560
his case, that was he ended up starting too many

1758
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:47,560
games for me. But that's part of the six Man

1759
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:48,920
of the Year case is that, oh he was good

1760
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:50,880
enough to start and should have been all along. But

1761
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:53,920
I look at Haim Hawkes, who's the guy off the

1762
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:56,840
bench that is though, like they actually want you running

1763
01:21:57,319 --> 01:21:58,479
their entire offense.

1764
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:00,760
Speaker 3: The driving is insane.

1765
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:03,239
Speaker 1: He's in the ninety eight percentile this year of self

1766
01:22:03,239 --> 01:22:06,000
created shot making. He's been probably a little bit better

1767
01:22:06,279 --> 01:22:10,600
defensively he's so he's become so critical to just how

1768
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:12,760
the Heat are running their offense. I don't know that

1769
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:16,119
they're even more so than a reed shepherd who you

1770
01:22:16,159 --> 01:22:17,920
bring him in the game and he's still just this

1771
01:22:18,079 --> 01:22:20,359
vessel through which you give the ball to Kevin Durant

1772
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:23,880
most of the time. And Aj Mitchell plays off the

1773
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:25,920
ball or reed sheepherd plays off the ball, where taimay

1774
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:27,399
Hawk is what if you're playing them off the ball

1775
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:30,239
or you probably have some issues there. He doesn't have value, right,

1776
01:22:31,039 --> 01:22:33,399
that might be an argument against him, but comes in

1777
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:38,039
and his numbers are insane, shooting over fifty percent on

1778
01:22:38,039 --> 01:22:41,079
his drives, averaging over fifteen points per game off the bench,

1779
01:22:41,119 --> 01:22:44,520
and just the running the on ball share of the offense.

1780
01:22:45,319 --> 01:22:47,640
I wish he was a better three point shooter or

1781
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:49,840
even a more willing three point shooter when you're looking at.

1782
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:50,600
Speaker 3: The actual volume.

1783
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:53,039
Speaker 1: Feels like he's someone when you watch him, I do

1784
01:22:53,159 --> 01:22:55,760
wonder why he doesn't play or excuse me, he doesn't

1785
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:59,079
draw more fouls, but just as a passer on the

1786
01:22:59,119 --> 01:23:01,000
move or someone who could in different ways, just even

1787
01:23:01,039 --> 01:23:02,640
out of drives, if you want to run some stuff

1788
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:04,720
for him at the elbows or you need him to

1789
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:08,680
get out and transition. I I like, I didn't get

1790
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:11,199
like he wasn't someone that I feel like I gave

1791
01:23:11,359 --> 01:23:13,640
enough credence to him really until I really sat down

1792
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:16,039
and started thinking about this award, because if I would

1793
01:23:16,039 --> 01:23:18,520
have went off cuff, it would have been something like, oh,

1794
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:22,920
what about Keldon Johnson? What about Tim Hardaway Junior? And

1795
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:26,119
I think nas Reed for sure. I also like to

1796
01:23:26,119 --> 01:23:28,039
factor in and I think this is you know, with

1797
01:23:28,119 --> 01:23:31,319
aj Mitchell, given how the thunder injuries were with Reed Shepherd,

1798
01:23:31,359 --> 01:23:32,880
we know he closes games in Houston.

1799
01:23:33,119 --> 01:23:34,399
Speaker 3: Like Kimi Hawkins Junior.

1800
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:36,199
Speaker 1: Is he's a sixth Man of the Year who's also

1801
01:23:36,239 --> 01:23:39,359
a legitimate closing candidate. You're not gonna get that with

1802
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:42,640
a lot of the other candidates. So where Tim Hardaway Junior? Okay, yeah,

1803
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:44,720
in some lineups, but most of the time, if Denver's

1804
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:46,960
healthy there, it's not going to be a discussion.

1805
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:49,520
Speaker 3: You're gonna want to default to your core five rights.

1806
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:52,319
Speaker 2: It's like, it's not ideal that Tim Hardaway would close

1807
01:23:52,319 --> 01:23:54,239
a game for you if you're Denver. It's it's because

1808
01:23:54,239 --> 01:23:57,520
like something you're not whole, or something's gone wrong, right,

1809
01:23:57,560 --> 01:23:59,800
are there any other I have I think you mentioned

1810
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:02,760
he mentioned Keldon Johnson. He was Hawkes was a consideration

1811
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:07,319
for me. There is one Quentin Grimes is gonna run

1812
01:24:07,359 --> 01:24:10,239
away with minutes played off the bench, so like there's

1813
01:24:10,239 --> 01:24:13,720
a volume component there. I think I think he's gotten

1814
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:15,760
written off a little bit just because he's not the

1815
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:17,800
guy that he was down the stretch last year for

1816
01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:19,680
the sixers. That was just he was over his head

1817
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:22,039
and that was a weird role for him. But in

1818
01:24:22,119 --> 01:24:26,079
terms of like volume impact, he's he's got a case

1819
01:24:26,119 --> 01:24:29,560
over against just about anybody. Didn't make my ballot, But

1820
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:31,640
did he Did you consider him or anybody else that

1821
01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:32,760
we haven't touched on yet?

1822
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:36,720
Speaker 3: Yes, I did give him some consideration. I also considered

1823
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:37,479
Cam Spencer.

1824
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:41,239
Speaker 1: Uh, Anthony Black ended up starting, and just like he

1825
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:43,319
was on track to start in too many games, he

1826
01:24:43,359 --> 01:24:45,279
ended up at forty so he definitely would have cleared

1827
01:24:45,319 --> 01:24:47,079
the halfway threshold.

1828
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:49,119
Speaker 3: Uh, that's really about it. Though.

1829
01:24:49,159 --> 01:24:51,600
Speaker 1: I think when it came to the Quentin Crimes that

1830
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,039
that was a good call out there. But yeah, Cam

1831
01:24:54,159 --> 01:24:55,880
Johnson was probably the one that I could, like, I

1832
01:24:56,079 --> 01:24:59,199
considered really throwing him into the top three of my ballot.

1833
01:25:00,359 --> 01:25:03,560
Cam Spencer, Kemp Johnson is not on any of our ballots.

1834
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:07,439
I apologize Cam Spencer and Memphis. It has been really

1835
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:10,760
good this year. You said, that's it on your honorable mention.

1836
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have any other strong considerations. Clutch Player

1837
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:17,720
of the Year who cares? Oh sorry, did I just

1838
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:20,359
say that?

1839
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:22,119
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1840
01:25:22,199 --> 01:25:25,479
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a stupid award. Why are we like,

1841
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:29,560
there's replace this with comeback player, Replace this with I

1842
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:32,199
don't know, make like a sportsmanship award, a bigger deal

1843
01:25:32,359 --> 01:25:32,880
and put it in.

1844
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:35,119
Speaker 3: The real here for everyone watching or listening.

1845
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:37,880
Speaker 1: Grant is so against this award that when I sent

1846
01:25:38,039 --> 01:25:39,840
him his ballot to fill out so I could make

1847
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:42,439
the graphics for the podcast, he just didn't fill it out.

1848
01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:44,319
Speaker 3: He refuses didn't.

1849
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:47,720
Speaker 2: So here's what really happened. So the result was I

1850
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:50,079
didn't fill it out. But when I was filling out

1851
01:25:50,119 --> 01:25:52,680
the spreadsheet, I just I saw it happens to be

1852
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:56,039
probably because it's alphabetical or something, but it's the next

1853
01:25:56,079 --> 01:25:57,880
thing after all NBA teams, and so I was like,

1854
01:25:57,880 --> 01:25:59,800
I'll come back to that because because I don't care,

1855
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:02,600
and then I forgot to come back to it. So

1856
01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:08,359
this okay, I went with Shay one. Just okay. He's

1857
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:11,000
maybe the best on ball closer there is. He's going

1858
01:26:11,079 --> 01:26:12,560
to draw valts, he's going to score on you if

1859
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:14,479
there's not really a good defense for him. He'll get

1860
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:17,359
off the ball when he needs to. I had Brunson second,

1861
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:20,680
and I had Anthony Edwards third. If you go look

1862
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:25,359
up clutch scoring per game or per clutch, I don't know,

1863
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:28,159
it's not really per game, per per five minutes, I

1864
01:26:28,159 --> 01:26:30,800
guess is what we'll call it. Since that's the definition

1865
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,640
of clutch within five and last five minutes, those three

1866
01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:36,399
are all way up there, and though not top three

1867
01:26:36,399 --> 01:26:39,119
in order, but among the higher scorers in clutch time,

1868
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:43,039
their efficiency is among the best. I'm not going to

1869
01:26:43,079 --> 01:26:45,920
pretend that I looked into this much more closely than that.

1870
01:26:46,399 --> 01:26:48,159
This is a dumb award. I hate it. It's stupid.

1871
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 1: I do think this is This is the award, though,

1872
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,319
if you wanted to go off vibes or anecdotes, this

1873
01:26:54,399 --> 01:26:57,039
is the award that's made for it. And I think

1874
01:26:57,319 --> 01:27:00,479
SGA and Anthony Edwards, in addition to their statistic cases

1875
01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:02,000
both have that down on locks. So they re my

1876
01:27:02,119 --> 01:27:04,880
one and two respects and Shay is just I'm trying

1877
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:07,279
to I'm thinking like Jokic of two years ago. I'm

1878
01:27:07,279 --> 01:27:10,279
trying to remember if another player where every shot down

1879
01:27:10,359 --> 01:27:12,039
the stretch I just assumed was going.

1880
01:27:12,079 --> 01:27:15,720
Speaker 3: He's reached that level. Remember how Steph was at one

1881
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:17,920
point too. I talked about VJ.

1882
01:27:18,079 --> 01:27:21,399
Speaker 1: Edgecomb here, he's like tied for I think he's like

1883
01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:24,119
fifth in made three because there's a four way tie

1884
01:27:24,119 --> 01:27:27,840
for first. He's just like fifth in made three pointers.

1885
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:28,239
Speaker 3: In the clutch.

1886
01:27:28,279 --> 01:27:31,119
Speaker 1: But that just feels a little disingenuous because Tyres Maxie,

1887
01:27:31,159 --> 01:27:33,720
if he's gonna be on the floor, Lamal Murray's shot

1888
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:36,000
making him the clutch has been insane. But I know

1889
01:27:36,039 --> 01:27:39,039
you said it's not about the statistics, but Denver's five

1890
01:27:39,119 --> 01:27:41,840
hundred in crunch time and they've lost the minutes that

1891
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:43,760
he's been on the court, and so that just felt

1892
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:47,119
like I couldn't do it. Jaylen Crunston has the statistical advoltage.

1893
01:27:47,239 --> 01:27:50,119
Speaker 2: That's why this is a stupid award, because this award

1894
01:27:50,119 --> 01:27:52,720
tells you that Jamal Murray's a bad clutch player, and

1895
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:56,840
it's like, oh no, Denver, because Denver routinely gives that

1896
01:27:56,880 --> 01:27:59,600
guy the last shots of games it wants to win,

1897
01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:01,039
So like, what are we talking about?

1898
01:28:01,079 --> 01:28:05,199
Speaker 1: Wait, so if you don't make an MVP ballot, that's

1899
01:28:05,199 --> 01:28:07,079
saying you're a bad player just because you didn't make

1900
01:28:07,119 --> 01:28:07,560
clutch player.

1901
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 3: That we I mean, you're a bad clutch player.

1902
01:28:09,439 --> 01:28:11,800
Speaker 2: It's it's it's you know, it's weird how some guys

1903
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:13,640
are clutched some years and then not the next year.

1904
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:16,359
It's almost like the information we use for this award

1905
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:19,960
is like small and subject to vagaries, and it's like,

1906
01:28:20,039 --> 01:28:23,159
I just don't who likes this? Like how old is

1907
01:28:23,199 --> 01:28:24,960
this award? Is this like five years old? Now? Is

1908
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:27,720
it more than that? I think it's so many, so

1909
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:29,399
many more interesting things to give away.

1910
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:32,239
Speaker 1: Well, so I will say, by the way VJ edgecom

1911
01:28:32,359 --> 01:28:35,159
this is a team thing, but second in crunch time

1912
01:28:35,199 --> 01:28:35,920
plus minus.

1913
01:28:36,119 --> 01:28:40,199
Speaker 2: Just he don't see him on your ballot, Dan, that's

1914
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:42,319
I'm here a lot of nice things. I don't see

1915
01:28:42,399 --> 01:28:43,000
him on your ballot.

1916
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:44,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a bad clutch player.

1917
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:48,880
Speaker 1: That's why, Like you said, I to your point, though

1918
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:51,039
I don't mind the existence of the award, do I

1919
01:28:51,039 --> 01:28:53,640
necessarily want to fill out another ballot and talk about it?

1920
01:28:54,319 --> 01:28:56,079
Speaker 3: I hear myself talk a lot I do a lot

1921
01:28:56,119 --> 01:28:58,000
for a living, but so maybe not.

1922
01:28:58,359 --> 01:29:01,479
Speaker 1: But where do you boil down to when people use

1923
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:06,000
these clutch moments or these snapshots of heroics in the

1924
01:29:06,159 --> 01:29:10,760
m v P discourse towards oh Shay ended the MVP debate.

1925
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:14,640
Speaker 2: Well, I want to say, wasn't there a case where,

1926
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:18,279
like maybe during Russell Westbrook's MVP season where he had

1927
01:29:18,359 --> 01:29:20,720
I don't know if cloys player existed then, but he

1928
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:22,800
won them a bunch of games late, right.

1929
01:29:22,800 --> 01:29:24,159
Speaker 3: And it was there. Do you remember the shot?

1930
01:29:24,279 --> 01:29:27,760
Speaker 1: The photo is tattooed to memory like the actual still shot.

1931
01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:28,760
Speaker 3: It was him in Denver.

1932
01:29:28,960 --> 01:29:30,880
Speaker 1: I think hit a game winner or maybe they were

1933
01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:32,600
an okay, see when he hit the game winner. But

1934
01:29:33,039 --> 01:29:36,399
that was the night that everybody decided Russell Westbrook was

1935
01:29:36,399 --> 01:29:38,560
gonna win the MVP, and it felt like didn't Shay

1936
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:40,680
have that? It might have been against Denver that but

1937
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:42,359
Shay had one of those moments too, And I think

1938
01:29:42,399 --> 01:29:45,279
it was against Denver because it was the the MVP.

1939
01:29:45,640 --> 01:29:48,239
Speaker 2: The two threes, the three to tie. Yeah, he put

1940
01:29:48,399 --> 01:29:51,640
he put him away by himself. So I guess, like

1941
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:55,880
here the real problem with clutch being based on tiny

1942
01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:59,000
samples that it's not predictive that like, that's inherently the

1943
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:03,159
issue with with small sample stats. You'd like in the

1944
01:30:03,159 --> 01:30:06,039
Westbrook example, though, like he really did win those games.

1945
01:30:06,199 --> 01:30:08,159
Now you could say, like, well, if he'd hit two

1946
01:30:08,159 --> 01:30:09,960
more shots in the second quarter, it wouldn't have been

1947
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:11,520
a position to have to win the game. So like

1948
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:14,000
that falls apart a little bit too under some scrutiny.

1949
01:30:14,079 --> 01:30:16,800
But those wins counted, and so maybe if you're breaking

1950
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:20,600
ties for other awards, maybe you consider, like, yeah, no,

1951
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:23,079
Shay's three really did add a win to the Ledger.

1952
01:30:23,239 --> 01:30:25,319
The point is winning, so that should count for something.

1953
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:29,319
Speaker 1: I just like, so, I'm sorry, moments that ken in

1954
01:30:29,359 --> 01:30:34,720
your mind shift in MVP debate aren't worth discussing as

1955
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:35,760
their own awards can.

1956
01:30:36,199 --> 01:30:39,279
Speaker 2: Here's the thing, I am trying to make the case

1957
01:30:39,359 --> 01:30:41,399
for this mattering and I'm doing a bad job of

1958
01:30:41,399 --> 01:30:42,479
it because I don't believe it.

1959
01:30:42,720 --> 01:30:45,800
Speaker 1: I like, I don't name who is Can you name

1960
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:47,720
all the Clutch Player of the Year winners?

1961
01:30:48,039 --> 01:30:49,880
Speaker 2: So this is the best question you've ever asked me.

1962
01:30:50,039 --> 01:30:55,079
Uh so Jokic must have won it, right? You never

1963
01:30:55,079 --> 01:30:55,439
won it?

1964
01:30:56,159 --> 01:30:57,640
Speaker 3: Gonna look it up now because I don't remember.

1965
01:30:57,720 --> 01:31:00,640
Speaker 2: Often I think dearon Fox won it. I definitely remember talking.

1966
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been three. This is the fourth iteration of

1967
01:31:03,159 --> 01:31:03,600
the award.

1968
01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 2: Okay, so you have been.

1969
01:31:05,359 --> 01:31:07,239
Speaker 3: Three winners and you have not named a single one

1970
01:31:07,239 --> 01:31:07,520
of them.

1971
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:10,520
Speaker 1: Yet Fox didn't win it, did Jalen bro Fox won it? Sorry,

1972
01:31:10,560 --> 01:31:14,279
that's the first one. Brunton won last year. That's two

1973
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:17,159
is Stephen there and he's the third one.

1974
01:31:17,159 --> 01:31:19,840
Speaker 2: All right, Hey, so listening, I know all about clutch

1975
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:20,600
player the year.

1976
01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:22,760
Speaker 1: I already got brunt in Fox. I don't know if

1977
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:25,159
I remember. I'm sure he was probably. I probably picked

1978
01:31:25,199 --> 01:31:27,359
him to win it, but I don't know if twenty four.

1979
01:31:28,039 --> 01:31:31,319
Speaker 2: All right, that's enough on this stupid award. Let's move

1980
01:31:31,319 --> 01:31:31,800
to one.

1981
01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:33,640
Speaker 1: That I spent a little bit more time on. This

1982
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:36,760
is everyone's real favorite coach of the year. Who's your ballot,

1983
01:31:37,279 --> 01:31:37,960
Joe Missoula.

1984
01:31:39,359 --> 01:31:41,399
Speaker 2: I just don't think the Celtics are what they are

1985
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,840
if they're not wired real tight competitively and strategically. And

1986
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:49,560
I think that just is the coach. There's other factors.

1987
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:53,520
But like we thought, we missed there over under by

1988
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,199
so much. They were supposed to be so bad and

1989
01:31:56,239 --> 01:31:59,479
it's not like you know, they they didn't trade for

1990
01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:02,479
anybody great to like throw the predictions off. They just

1991
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:04,479
got an awesome year from Jalen Brown and everybody else

1992
01:32:04,479 --> 01:32:07,720
played well, so I'm giving it to him. I've got

1993
01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:10,479
Charles Lee second. I don't know how the Hornets became

1994
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:12,720
a good defensive team, so I'm just giving him credit

1995
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:15,239
for that over a large chunk of the year. And

1996
01:32:15,279 --> 01:32:18,640
then Dagnault is third. For me, let's not overthink it,

1997
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:21,840
Like the thunder still just are gonna win more games

1998
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,479
than anybody this year. They've had a bunch of injuries

1999
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:27,319
and they've figured it out. So I like to throw

2000
01:32:27,399 --> 01:32:31,760
one established, really good coach in there into an award

2001
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:34,920
that tends to reward guys that are young and like

2002
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:37,119
turn teams around and stuff. I don't like to forget

2003
01:32:37,119 --> 01:32:40,279
about the dag Naults and the Spolstras and all that stuff. Yeah,

2004
01:32:40,319 --> 01:32:42,079
because it feels like the winner of this is the

2005
01:32:42,119 --> 01:32:46,119
who exceeded expectations award A lot of the time we picked.

2006
01:32:46,119 --> 01:32:48,079
We both picked Missoula pretty clearly it is.

2007
01:32:48,119 --> 01:32:52,359
Speaker 1: But it's more interesting when a coach who he's not new.

2008
01:32:52,399 --> 01:32:54,479
This isn't Joe Mizuoll's first or second year. Now you

2009
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:57,119
have the try he's won a championship, but Joe Mizooll

2010
01:32:57,159 --> 01:32:59,399
was one for me. I jored not a number two,

2011
01:32:59,439 --> 01:33:03,479
so I fall to the trope. But the Suns, speaking

2012
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:05,840
of they were supposed to be bad, and I don't

2013
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:07,800
know that you looked at the personnel on this roster

2014
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:10,880
and thought they're gonna be a hillacious defensive team. I

2015
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:13,399
probably thought Jayalen Green was gonna play more, but still

2016
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:14,920
that didn't think he would.

2017
01:33:14,680 --> 01:33:15,520
Speaker 3: Be hurt for so long.

2018
01:33:16,359 --> 01:33:20,039
Speaker 1: And like there's a culture there now we talk about

2019
01:33:20,039 --> 01:33:22,880
things maybe going rotten in Houston, they had gone rotten

2020
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:25,159
in Phoenix. I don't know what the common denominator there is,

2021
01:33:25,159 --> 01:33:26,520
but they had gone rotten in Phoenix.

2022
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 3: Well that will never know.

2023
01:33:27,479 --> 01:33:28,199
Speaker 2: It's a mystery.

2024
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:30,680
Speaker 3: So and then I have Mark dagnel three as well.

2025
01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:31,600
He's a tactical genius.

2026
01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:33,880
Speaker 1: And also when you look at the value the thunder

2027
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:37,399
loss to injury just by virtue of Hartenstein missing games,

2028
01:33:38,119 --> 01:33:41,079
j Dub missing so many games and like being able.

2029
01:33:41,159 --> 01:33:44,560
The other thing that he's the reason caseon Wallace or

2030
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:47,960
even an aj Mitchell exists is they've been able to

2031
01:33:48,039 --> 01:33:50,880
find minutes for these guys while they're still winning, Like

2032
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:53,640
when they were quote unquote developing, and so his ability

2033
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:56,359
to always do that is something of like even it's

2034
01:33:56,359 --> 01:33:59,439
with a J Will too, Like we don't know as

2035
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:02,399
much about out these players. If Mark Deagdelt isn't finding

2036
01:34:02,439 --> 01:34:04,319
ways to get them and then I know a lot

2037
01:34:04,319 --> 01:34:05,960
of it is the thunder just beat opponents by a

2038
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:06,560
trillion points.

2039
01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:08,039
Speaker 3: But that's not that's not all of it.

2040
01:34:08,079 --> 01:34:10,520
Speaker 1: AJ Mitchell and Case and Wallace before they were AJ Mitchell,

2041
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:13,359
Case and Wallace got real stakes because of in part

2042
01:34:13,399 --> 01:34:16,159
because of injuries. But they just they found minutes for

2043
01:34:16,199 --> 01:34:18,039
those guys. And I think that's a really big deal.

2044
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:21,680
Speaker 2: Pretty long list of other considerations, right, I should say

2045
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:24,840
it was way up the list for me, Mick. Neither

2046
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:26,720
of us has Mitch Johnson and the Spurs are gonna

2047
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:28,319
win sixty whatever games, Like.

2048
01:34:28,399 --> 01:34:31,560
Speaker 1: Well, you just said Wemby is the primary driver of everything.

2049
01:34:32,640 --> 01:34:34,359
Speaker 2: I think that's part of it is it's like, yeah,

2050
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:35,920
you know what, it is hard to figure out what

2051
01:34:35,960 --> 01:34:38,479
to do with Wemby on offense. I think I believe

2052
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:41,119
that more months ago than I do now, because I

2053
01:34:41,119 --> 01:34:42,760
think you can get away with doing whatever you want.

2054
01:34:44,199 --> 01:34:46,239
Is it just because Wemby is that Is that why?

2055
01:34:46,239 --> 01:34:48,199
Because like you can take the player development case, you

2056
01:34:48,199 --> 01:34:51,840
could make a lot of the expectation defiance, like Johnson's

2057
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:54,880
case is pretty good on a lot of the classic fronts.

2058
01:34:55,239 --> 01:34:57,079
Speaker 3: Is it kind of a did the le bronze coach

2059
01:34:57,119 --> 01:34:58,479
ever win Coach.

2060
01:34:58,199 --> 01:35:01,640
Speaker 2: Of the Year, like win one in Cleveland with him?

2061
01:35:02,079 --> 01:35:03,880
Did that happen like so early?

2062
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:05,479
Speaker 1: If you're gonna win it with a player like that,

2063
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:08,079
you gotta win it early in their career before everything

2064
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:12,199
is still on our ballot. Because you could just attribute

2065
01:35:12,239 --> 01:35:12,680
it to Shay.

2066
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah you could. Yeah, No, I don't know who else.

2067
01:35:16,079 --> 01:35:18,479
I said Spolstra. A lot of people are gonna have JB.

2068
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:22,159
Bickerstaff much higher than we do. What's what's your thinking there?

2069
01:35:22,199 --> 01:35:23,720
Is it that he's got less to do with it

2070
01:35:23,760 --> 01:35:25,800
than the personnel? Is that the nutshell?

2071
01:35:27,039 --> 01:35:27,279
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2072
01:35:27,359 --> 01:35:29,199
Speaker 1: I mean like he had I guess you could make

2073
01:35:29,199 --> 01:35:31,880
the case that the Pistons are way better than last

2074
01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:35,239
year without having overhauled the personnel. But it's like that

2075
01:35:35,560 --> 01:35:38,479
to me seems more about like like whose role that's

2076
01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:39,920
just shifted a ton?

2077
01:35:40,159 --> 01:35:41,399
Speaker 3: You're like it should it be.

2078
01:35:41,359 --> 01:35:44,119
Speaker 2: So hard to put together? I mean like you're playing

2079
01:35:44,159 --> 01:35:47,399
Thompson and Holland and Durham and like your.

2080
01:35:47,319 --> 01:35:50,279
Speaker 1: Space like, oh, let's let's run actions with Kate Cunningham

2081
01:35:50,319 --> 01:35:51,960
and Jail and Duran. I don't know if that's rocket so.

2082
01:35:52,239 --> 01:35:53,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know if it's fair to hold that.

2083
01:35:53,960 --> 01:35:55,680
I guess I am holding that against him a little

2084
01:35:55,680 --> 01:35:57,960
bit because it's like an extreme version of the Jamal

2085
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:00,239
Moseley thing. It's like figure out an offense, guy, like

2086
01:36:00,279 --> 01:36:02,920
what are we doing? Like it's not nearly that to

2087
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:06,439
that level, but it's like the defense. We love to

2088
01:36:06,439 --> 01:36:09,239
credit coaches for establishing a defensive culture. Like maybe at

2089
01:36:09,279 --> 01:36:11,520
runs into this at some point where the offense just

2090
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:13,359
isn't quite as good as it should be and he

2091
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:16,119
starts to like slip in our estimation. I hope that

2092
01:36:16,119 --> 01:36:17,079
doesn't happen, but it might.

2093
01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:18,359
Speaker 3: It'd be fun.

2094
01:36:18,399 --> 01:36:20,319
Speaker 1: I think someone just proposes that there should be like

2095
01:36:20,399 --> 01:36:22,079
a like there should be Coach of the Year and

2096
01:36:22,119 --> 01:36:24,079
then like an all coaching team, so you get to

2097
01:36:24,079 --> 01:36:25,760
pick five. But I guess we could just make our

2098
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:29,279
ballots five deep. Jamal Mosley did not win coach, will

2099
01:36:29,279 --> 01:36:31,119
not be on that Coach to the Year ballot. Could

2100
01:36:31,119 --> 01:36:33,279
you is there a case for just looking at some

2101
01:36:33,359 --> 01:36:37,279
of the mid season turnarounds. If it's Tylo or more

2102
01:36:37,319 --> 01:36:39,359
so Quinn Snyder in Atlanta.

2103
01:36:39,560 --> 01:36:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Snyder's one. I mean for Snyder, they came into

2104
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:46,079
the year thinking they were gonna be one kind of

2105
01:36:46,119 --> 01:36:48,359
team and turned into a different one by trading Trey Young.

2106
01:36:49,079 --> 01:36:52,359
That's a pretty fundamental shift in how you play. Although,

2107
01:36:52,399 --> 01:36:55,520
like do you think maybe deep down Quinn Snyder was like,

2108
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:58,479
oh good, now we can play properly without Trey Young.

2109
01:37:00,119 --> 01:37:03,239
We can actually do like real team stuff. That's fun.

2110
01:37:03,439 --> 01:37:05,640
Speaker 1: He reacted the way that Jason Kidd reacted when the

2111
01:37:05,640 --> 01:37:06,520
match traded Luca.

2112
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:12,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he got the he got the handcuffs

2113
01:37:12,199 --> 01:37:14,079
taken off, maybe is what he.

2114
01:37:14,039 --> 01:37:16,239
Speaker 3: Thought in terms of mid season.

2115
01:37:16,279 --> 01:37:18,319
Speaker 1: So, I mean, James Barrego, there was the report that

2116
01:37:18,319 --> 01:37:19,840
the Pelicans don't want him back.

2117
01:37:20,479 --> 01:37:23,319
Speaker 3: Were they again him bringing fears in? Derek Queen off

2118
01:37:23,359 --> 01:37:24,119
them like they've.

2119
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:27,479
Speaker 1: Been a competitive team, Yeah, since he took over, So

2120
01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:29,199
he would deserve a shout. I'm trying to think there's

2121
01:37:29,239 --> 01:37:32,279
I had Charles Lee on my list. Obviously, where's Doc

2122
01:37:32,359 --> 01:37:32,960
Rivers' rank?

2123
01:37:33,279 --> 01:37:36,680
Speaker 2: For you? Hall of Famer Doc Rivers? You address him

2124
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:37,920
by his proper title.

2125
01:37:38,079 --> 01:37:39,119
Speaker 3: Dark Aaryakovich.

2126
01:37:39,239 --> 01:37:41,279
Speaker 1: We were pretty high on the Rafters coming into the season,

2127
01:37:41,319 --> 01:37:45,199
but they've just been better while being imperfect than most

2128
01:37:45,199 --> 01:37:45,800
had them being.

2129
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:48,039
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a weird team. We should have a

2130
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:50,520
coach who does the best with a weird team. I

2131
01:37:50,560 --> 01:37:51,199
think he would win.

2132
01:37:51,279 --> 01:37:53,600
Speaker 1: I think he wins that one, right, maybe Missoula does

2133
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:56,279
he win that one too, but otherwise it's dark.

2134
01:37:56,279 --> 01:37:59,119
Speaker 3: Aaryakovic has to win that, like when you look at.

2135
01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:01,439
Speaker 1: The personnel that he Yeah, that's a tricky one and

2136
01:38:01,479 --> 01:38:03,920
just like him as the coach that's perfected the way

2137
01:38:03,960 --> 01:38:04,560
to use RJ.

2138
01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:09,199
Speaker 3: Barrett. One of the random developments right right, yep is this.

2139
01:38:09,279 --> 01:38:10,840
Speaker 1: I think this is the final ward before we get

2140
01:38:10,880 --> 01:38:12,840
to the meat and potatoes of this podcast, which is

2141
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:15,840
the made up awards. But grant take us through our

2142
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:18,199
Executive of the Year bad because it's the same.

2143
01:38:18,119 --> 01:38:21,760
Speaker 2: Damn thing show Auntie Salleh, who like has held this

2144
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:25,680
down for all the entire season, basically like right since

2145
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:30,920
the since the the Draft night trade. Obviously the Alexander Walker.

2146
01:38:31,399 --> 01:38:33,159
I guess it was technically a sign and trade, but

2147
01:38:33,359 --> 01:38:38,199
that acquisition ridiculous. You could stop there. I mean they

2148
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:41,640
traded for an unprotected first rounder and they got the

2149
01:38:41,680 --> 01:38:43,560
guy that you said was the most improved player and

2150
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:47,239
I said was number two. Pretty good, Uh, Brad Stevens,

2151
01:38:47,279 --> 01:38:51,159
Just like, how how do you keep a team? They

2152
01:38:51,199 --> 01:38:54,960
lost what sixty percent of their start? Like they just

2153
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:56,680
lost everything and they were still good. And a lot

2154
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:58,920
of that had to do with guys like Jordan Walsh

2155
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:02,640
and new Go Gonzalez and Baylor Shierman and unheralded Nemius kDa,

2156
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:05,800
like all these guys that either were drafted or acquired

2157
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:09,159
with very little fanfare that ended up playing great.

2158
01:39:09,279 --> 01:39:12,119
Speaker 1: Like and look, this isn't all of it, but you

2159
01:39:12,199 --> 01:39:15,159
ducked the tax without trading a first round pick and

2160
01:39:15,199 --> 01:39:18,000
while still being on pace to win like fifty five games.

2161
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:21,119
Speaker 2: And you made a bat you trade. Does he deserve

2162
01:39:21,199 --> 01:39:23,000
to fall off the list because of the Vuovitch trade?

2163
01:39:23,079 --> 01:39:25,520
I think some Celtics fans would say yes, but I wouldn't.

2164
01:39:26,239 --> 01:39:28,359
Sam Presty third, it's a little bit like Dagnall, Like

2165
01:39:28,399 --> 01:39:31,039
we just need to continue to acknowledge that, I mean

2166
01:39:31,079 --> 01:39:36,000
even really to a greater degree than with Dagnall, We

2167
01:39:36,079 --> 01:39:38,520
need to acknowledge Presty is just continuing to like the

2168
01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:41,479
Jared McCain trade just I mean, on its own.

2169
01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:43,279
Speaker 3: Is like there so high.

2170
01:39:43,600 --> 01:39:45,520
Speaker 1: They had too many guards and they sold high, which

2171
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:48,079
is why they needed to sign campaign right.

2172
01:39:48,279 --> 01:39:52,319
Speaker 2: No, that that that by itself, I mean Mitchell sort

2173
01:39:52,319 --> 01:39:53,600
of is a feather in his cap.

2174
01:39:53,640 --> 01:39:56,479
Speaker 1: I think, well, the contract that they have Mitchell on

2175
01:39:56,640 --> 01:39:57,680
now is high.

2176
01:39:57,520 --> 01:39:59,640
Speaker 2: Total of nine million dollars for two years.

2177
01:40:00,399 --> 01:40:02,800
Speaker 1: And then even I don't know how much of a

2178
01:40:03,399 --> 01:40:07,000
like negotiation this was. But neither like Chet nor j

2179
01:40:07,199 --> 01:40:09,720
Dub got like the full on that it didn't It

2180
01:40:09,800 --> 01:40:11,800
ended up not mattering. But you put yourself in a

2181
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:14,159
position that, like for Chet, specifically him not having the

2182
01:40:14,319 --> 01:40:18,640
escalator language ends up mattering to the Thunder's finances because

2183
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:21,640
he's probably gonna make I'd be pretty shocked. Actually, if

2184
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:23,840
Chet doesn't make an All NBA team, we both you

2185
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:25,399
had him, second, I had him third, I think or.

2186
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:28,439
Speaker 2: He'll he'll make him he's got to. Yeah, no, that's

2187
01:40:28,439 --> 01:40:30,880
a good call. Anybody else. So we haven't taught I

2188
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:33,039
mean this you could kind of grab from wherever if

2189
01:40:33,079 --> 01:40:35,520
you really wanted to, like you might just go I

2190
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:38,199
don't just look at the standings and be like, Okay,

2191
01:40:38,359 --> 01:40:41,119
this guy put together a team that's third in the

2192
01:40:41,159 --> 01:40:44,520
East or whatever. So I guess we're we're gonna honor

2193
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:44,920
the Knicks.

2194
01:40:45,199 --> 01:40:45,560
Speaker 3: Oh, by the.

2195
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:48,920
Speaker 1: Way, part of Auntie Salah's case is like, so we

2196
01:40:49,119 --> 01:40:51,319
liked it at the Christops porzingis trade when it happened,

2197
01:40:51,800 --> 01:40:53,600
it doesn't pan outse then you move him and get

2198
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:56,840
Jonathan Kmenko, who's just been balling, And now you roll

2199
01:40:56,840 --> 01:40:59,359
over that salary slot into a younger player.

2200
01:40:59,720 --> 01:41:02,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, who would have way more I probably has more

2201
01:41:02,239 --> 01:41:05,880
trade value than Porzingius who anybody else? I don't know.

2202
01:41:07,760 --> 01:41:09,640
I don't know. We can move on probably.

2203
01:41:09,359 --> 01:41:12,720
Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna say, I'm trying to think of No,

2204
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:14,680
I wouldn't put them there, Charlotte.

2205
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:15,399
Speaker 3: Nothing's happening.

2206
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:18,880
Speaker 1: They did over like Canipple getting Like, drafting Canipple wasn't

2207
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:21,439
a no brainer, right. Dylan Harper was the no was

2208
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:23,760
the no brainer pick, as was Cooper Flag and.

2209
01:41:23,800 --> 01:41:27,000
Speaker 2: All their rookie like like Calprinner and James like, that's

2210
01:41:27,000 --> 01:41:30,520
a pretty darn good drafty they I mean, Canipple by

2211
01:41:30,600 --> 01:41:34,039
himself is you sort of are one of the biggest winners.

2212
01:41:34,079 --> 01:41:36,119
But yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.

2213
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:40,239
Speaker 1: Where do you land on Miami, got Norman Powell been

2214
01:41:40,319 --> 01:41:42,159
up and down? That was like that was a highway

2215
01:41:42,239 --> 01:41:43,720
robbery of a trade for them.

2216
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe earlier in the season, when I couldn't

2217
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:48,399
shut up about it, maybe I would have given more

2218
01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:53,399
credit for like green lighting the offensive changes. But ultimately,

2219
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:56,560
you know, the heater number number ten in the East,

2220
01:41:56,560 --> 01:41:56,960
so big.

2221
01:41:56,840 --> 01:42:01,520
Speaker 3: Deals obvious one Brian Gregory and Phoenix Georgia right higher.

2222
01:42:02,119 --> 01:42:04,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Kevin Durant trades working out for the Malawatch

2223
01:42:04,840 --> 01:42:06,520
has shown some things later in the year.

2224
01:42:07,119 --> 01:42:09,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think that's what that's fair trying.

2225
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:13,560
Speaker 3: What about the Clippers? That Beal trade was awful?

2226
01:42:13,600 --> 01:42:17,960
Speaker 1: So you swap Norman Powell for Beale and John Collins

2227
01:42:18,039 --> 01:42:19,319
essentially that doesn't work out.

2228
01:42:19,359 --> 01:42:21,199
Speaker 3: But then go ahead.

2229
01:42:21,039 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 2: If I agree with you, Does that mean I'm also

2230
01:42:23,119 --> 01:42:26,800
gonna be shielded for many aspiration related punishments?

2231
01:42:27,239 --> 01:42:31,079
Speaker 1: Is that looks like the tenor of that Baxter Holmes

2232
01:42:31,159 --> 01:42:33,439
piece was just nothing. It doesn't seem like anything's really

2233
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:36,199
gonna come up this. Uh did you read the ESPN

2234
01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:39,279
piece that Baxter Holmes had on the investigation the latest?

2235
01:42:39,319 --> 01:42:41,319
Speaker 2: Well, I what I did see was the recent sort

2236
01:42:41,319 --> 01:42:44,079
of like counter arguments that are leaking where it's like no, no, no,

2237
01:42:44,119 --> 01:42:46,840
it was Aspiration wanted to buddy up to Steve Balmer

2238
01:42:46,840 --> 01:42:49,560
and the Clippers, and so he initiated all this stuff

2239
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:52,079
and whatever is illegal going on with Kawhi was coming

2240
01:42:52,119 --> 01:42:55,079
from him because it just you know, he wanted to

2241
01:42:55,199 --> 01:42:58,039
ingratiate himself to billionaires because his company was going under.

2242
01:42:58,239 --> 01:43:00,359
Like sure, that's what the Clippers will say.

2243
01:43:01,039 --> 01:43:05,600
Speaker 1: My my biggest takeaway from that piece is the hilarity

2244
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:10,000
of a like a company who's touting their carbon offset

2245
01:43:10,039 --> 01:43:13,920
green bank whatever is. They had bobbleheads made with their

2246
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,239
name on it, and then the packaging their branding was

2247
01:43:16,239 --> 01:43:17,640
on it for the Clippers to give out of Kawhi

2248
01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:21,079
Leonard at their games and then ask them to neuter

2249
01:43:21,199 --> 01:43:23,880
it at the last minute because it was plastic and

2250
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:26,279
that would have been been like a bad How did

2251
01:43:26,319 --> 01:43:27,600
you not think of that?

2252
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:28,159
Speaker 3: And they couldn't.

2253
01:43:28,159 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: So they could remove the packaging, but they couldn't actually

2254
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:34,600
remove the Aspiration logo from the lender.

2255
01:43:34,399 --> 01:43:36,920
Speaker 2: Bob just so did they just set them all on

2256
01:43:37,000 --> 01:43:39,720
fire and send the fumes into the into the atmosphere.

2257
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 1: I think that that might that might be their best

2258
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:46,239
argument for innocence in all this is that the company

2259
01:43:46,239 --> 01:43:50,000
that's this massive and their entire business model we're going

2260
01:43:50,079 --> 01:43:54,039
to commission. We need ten thousand Kawhi plastic bobbleheads and

2261
01:43:54,119 --> 01:43:56,840
ultra plastic packaging made, and that's not going to be

2262
01:43:56,880 --> 01:43:58,880
a bad look when we put our branding all over.

2263
01:43:58,920 --> 01:44:00,880
Speaker 2: It is incompetence.

2264
01:44:01,800 --> 01:44:04,399
Speaker 3: I think that's it. There. Are you ready to get

2265
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:07,760
to some stat padding awards? Grant?

2266
01:44:07,800 --> 01:44:09,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so.

2267
01:44:09,720 --> 01:44:12,640
Speaker 1: I will take us through our first category, which is

2268
01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:16,960
when we bring it up here, Grant, which NBA players

2269
01:44:17,319 --> 01:44:19,880
are you teaming up with during a zombie apocalypse?

2270
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:24,159
Speaker 2: Number one with a bullet and I would take him

2271
01:44:24,199 --> 01:44:27,680
over any other two healthier or not. I should put

2272
01:44:27,680 --> 01:44:30,960
out there is Steven Adams. I do not think zombies

2273
01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:34,119
approach you if Steven Adams is nearby, because even they

2274
01:44:34,199 --> 01:44:38,079
understand what they would be in for. I imagine him

2275
01:44:38,079 --> 01:44:40,720
to be resourceful. He runs a dairy farm in New Zealand,

2276
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:44,520
so he's comfortable out there. If the societal food supply collapses,

2277
01:44:44,880 --> 01:44:47,520
he's gonna You're gonna be okay with him. And then obviously,

2278
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:50,520
like I said, the brute strength, like there's you're You're good,

2279
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:52,760
You have a bodyguard and a provider. It's all you need.

2280
01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:54,560
And he seems like a chill dude. You'd probably be

2281
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:57,119
great to talk to if you've got limited options for that.

2282
01:44:57,520 --> 01:45:00,680
Bruce Brown's a distant second, and that's just because he

2283
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:02,880
wears cowboy hats and he looks like Woody Harrelson from

2284
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:05,039
Zombie Land and he made it quite a while in

2285
01:45:05,039 --> 01:45:06,760
that movie. So pretty easy choices.

2286
01:45:07,359 --> 01:45:11,039
Speaker 1: I would nominate LaMelo Ball, who has let's just go

2287
01:45:11,079 --> 01:45:13,920
through this year, think about really think about a zombie apocalypse.

2288
01:45:14,199 --> 01:45:17,760
LaMelo Ball has a hummer that's wrapped like a tank

2289
01:45:18,159 --> 01:45:20,960
and does not observe the rules of the road. Now,

2290
01:45:21,399 --> 01:45:23,119
so if I need someone to just run down the

2291
01:45:23,239 --> 01:45:24,920
zombies and create a badley, I'm going to team up

2292
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:27,000
with LaMelo Ball and trying and get in that hummer, assuming,

2293
01:45:27,079 --> 01:45:29,359
of course, that Steven Adams is not available.

2294
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:30,600
Speaker 3: So Lamel Ball's my pick.

2295
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:34,159
Speaker 2: There, He's off the board. He's the number one pick. Easy,

2296
01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:37,760
all right. I got an award for you, Dan, which

2297
01:45:37,840 --> 01:45:40,720
star this year made the biggest sacrifice?

2298
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:44,960
Speaker 1: I think it was Scottie Barnes because you look at

2299
01:45:45,159 --> 01:45:48,319
the on like his decline in the on Ball share

2300
01:45:48,319 --> 01:45:51,840
of the offense was just so stark, so he had

2301
01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:53,520
to be more of a play finisher but still had

2302
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:56,079
to playmaking element there. And then he does all this

2303
01:45:56,239 --> 01:45:59,319
where not that he would ever pout, but it's, oh,

2304
01:45:59,359 --> 01:46:01,079
he's just gonna be one of the five or ten

2305
01:46:01,159 --> 01:46:04,000
best defenders in the game while seeing his offensive role,

2306
01:46:04,079 --> 01:46:07,119
like you're shifting more of the volume to a brandon.

2307
01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:09,239
Speaker 3: Ingram or to an RJ. Barrener and Emmanuel quickly.

2308
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:10,880
Speaker 1: I think he made I think he made a ton

2309
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:13,359
of concessions this season and what's better for both him

2310
01:46:13,359 --> 01:46:14,000
and the Raptors.

2311
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:17,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was torn here. I think I'm gonna go

2312
01:46:17,119 --> 01:46:19,680
Lebron James. I know that's a you know, oh you're

2313
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:23,000
picking Lebron for some more congratulations. He really did just

2314
01:46:23,119 --> 01:46:25,199
kind of change the way he was playing mid stream.

2315
01:46:25,359 --> 01:46:27,159
It just it was clear he should be the third

2316
01:46:27,199 --> 01:46:31,199
highest usage guy. He embraced that. And that's how many

2317
01:46:31,279 --> 01:46:34,239
superstars or former superstars do we see It just kind

2318
01:46:34,239 --> 01:46:36,399
of doesn't happen like Russell Westbrook's still trying to win

2319
01:46:36,479 --> 01:46:38,760
MVP like that. That's that's a tough thing to do

2320
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:41,399
for a player at his level. Cooper Flag is like

2321
01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:44,239
a dark horse pick because that dude just was okay

2322
01:46:44,399 --> 01:46:46,560
running point guard on a team with no spacing for

2323
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:48,560
a good chunk of the year and didn't complain about it.

2324
01:46:49,439 --> 01:46:51,399
That was not the best way for him to succeed.

2325
01:46:51,760 --> 01:46:53,720
It might ultimately help him in the long run, but like,

2326
01:46:54,039 --> 01:46:56,239
he was asked to do something real, tough that was

2327
01:46:56,239 --> 01:46:57,920
not in his skill set or at least not his

2328
01:46:58,000 --> 01:47:00,399
build skill set, and he did it. He did it

2329
01:47:00,399 --> 01:47:02,760
as well as you could have expected. So tough one

2330
01:47:02,760 --> 01:47:03,680
for him, but he handled it.

2331
01:47:04,279 --> 01:47:06,199
Speaker 1: He could also probably make a case for Zion with

2332
01:47:06,239 --> 01:47:08,399
the way they used him on offense this year, but

2333
01:47:08,399 --> 01:47:10,720
I don't even know if that was deliberate, so he might.

2334
01:47:10,600 --> 01:47:11,600
Speaker 3: Be a bad pick.

2335
01:47:11,760 --> 01:47:16,399
Speaker 1: Anything deliberate there, Grant, who is your sophomore of the Year.

2336
01:47:17,159 --> 01:47:20,960
Speaker 2: I think it's Steph Castle. The shot is still a question,

2337
01:47:21,319 --> 01:47:23,880
but he's shooting it more willingly, it's going in a

2338
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:27,159
little more. Has become a lights out defender, and I

2339
01:47:27,319 --> 01:47:30,960
just he did this as a rookie. But his ability

2340
01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:35,279
to change games with physicality and just competitive intensity, he's

2341
01:47:35,279 --> 01:47:37,039
on a you know, he's like a top five percent

2342
01:47:37,079 --> 01:47:39,920
guy in that regard. I think so he's been He

2343
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:42,319
was rookie of the year and not a great class,

2344
01:47:42,319 --> 01:47:44,640
but he just I think he looks even better.

2345
01:47:44,399 --> 01:47:48,199
Speaker 1: Now, validating that pick for sure. I think another good

2346
01:47:48,399 --> 01:47:51,479
nominee would be Donovan Klingen has turned into just one

2347
01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:54,760
of the NBA's most dominant rim protectors, and he's also

2348
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:56,880
his hands have gotten a little bit better on offense,

2349
01:47:56,920 --> 01:48:00,960
and now he's able to semi reliable stretched the floor

2350
01:48:01,319 --> 01:48:03,720
with his three point shooting. And so what if he

2351
01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:06,960
just ends up being Oh, hey, Rudy Gobert shoots threes.

2352
01:48:06,680 --> 01:48:10,199
Speaker 2: Now, that'd be fun. I think we would be remiss

2353
01:48:10,199 --> 01:48:12,960
in not shouting out Reed Shepherd, who still does not

2354
01:48:13,079 --> 01:48:15,479
have as large a role as UI or the collective

2355
01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:18,800
basketball watching public believes he should. It's just it's looking

2356
01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:20,520
a little closer to what it ought to ought to

2357
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:24,600
this year with the shooting looks real, the defense and

2358
01:48:24,640 --> 01:48:26,399
the playmaking isn't where you'd like it to be. The

2359
01:48:26,399 --> 01:48:29,000
playmaking may get there, but I just think Read Shepherd

2360
01:48:29,039 --> 01:48:31,439
is sort of I think we can all calm down.

2361
01:48:31,479 --> 01:48:33,319
I think it's still gonna happen for Read Shepherd, and

2362
01:48:33,319 --> 01:48:34,760
that wasn't clear after last year.

2363
01:48:35,479 --> 01:48:37,840
Speaker 1: Keishawn George would also be a good shout out here.

2364
01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:41,359
Shouldered more of the scoring and playmaking burden for Washington

2365
01:48:41,399 --> 01:48:43,600
and aj Mitchell, of course, in Oklahoma City is another

2366
01:48:43,640 --> 01:48:44,960
sophomore that really stood out.

2367
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:48,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, it's time for some mia culpas. I

2368
01:48:48,199 --> 01:48:51,720
guess here, Dan Dan who is the most egregious preseason

2369
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:52,800
miss of yours?

2370
01:48:53,920 --> 01:48:56,760
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm going between I'm gonna let you decide.

2371
01:48:56,840 --> 01:48:59,960
Is it me putting Evan Mobley third on my preseas

2372
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:03,079
he's an MVP ballot or Raffie al Stone third on

2373
01:49:03,199 --> 01:49:04,920
my Executive of the Year ballot?

2374
01:49:06,000 --> 01:49:09,279
Speaker 2: I mean I can respect the mobiley third on MVP.

2375
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:12,039
The trajectory was headed. That's a little bit of a

2376
01:49:12,079 --> 01:49:15,199
hot take, little bold prediction wise, but not ridiculous. The

2377
01:49:15,239 --> 01:49:18,520
Stone one is aged pretty poorly because Kevin Durant. Acquiring

2378
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:19,960
Kevin Durant was a big part of that, and the

2379
01:49:20,000 --> 01:49:23,279
price seemed fine. Seems like the Suns won that trade.

2380
01:49:23,760 --> 01:49:27,079
I don't know if if Durant's burner stuff just tanks

2381
01:49:27,119 --> 01:49:31,319
the Rockets and you've thrown a season away. Tough, look tough,

2382
01:49:31,359 --> 01:49:35,159
look tough. Not as tough as this, though. I picked

2383
01:49:35,239 --> 01:49:37,079
Jamal Mosley to win Coach of the Year, and that

2384
01:49:37,199 --> 01:49:39,720
was a hot take and he's gonna get fired. So

2385
01:49:40,000 --> 01:49:43,600
we went the complete opposite direction on that one. I

2386
01:49:43,640 --> 01:49:46,720
don't feel great about that. Even if he doesn't get fired.

2387
01:49:46,760 --> 01:49:48,319
I don't think there's a Coach of the Year in

2388
01:49:48,359 --> 01:49:51,760
his future. I did not. Secondly, I did not have

2389
01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:54,680
Conker Nipple on my Rookie of the Year short list,

2390
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:57,399
and he's gonna win that award. So a couple of

2391
01:49:57,399 --> 01:49:58,560
pretty big misses there.

2392
01:49:59,079 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 3: That's I don't know which one is bigger.

2393
01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:05,000
Speaker 1: I guess because there's a Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey

2394
01:50:05,199 --> 01:50:07,439
that the Conkoin Nipple one. In the moments more more

2395
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:10,039
just that the Jamal Moseley won. Everyone had the same question,

2396
01:50:10,159 --> 01:50:13,119
is he the right coach to maximize this team on offense?

2397
01:50:13,279 --> 01:50:17,800
So that's that One's a tough look. Grant, What are

2398
01:50:17,880 --> 01:50:20,960
some NBA players that you're still holding out hope for

2399
01:50:21,119 --> 01:50:24,239
after this season despite them having distressed value?

2400
01:50:25,119 --> 01:50:28,279
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, uh, I would say I'll go with the

2401
01:50:28,319 --> 01:50:31,800
guy later on my list just because he fits the criteria.

2402
01:50:32,079 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 3: I'm not.

2403
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:34,800
Speaker 2: I'm not giving up on Keegan Murray, who had an

2404
01:50:34,840 --> 01:50:41,159
awful season, like productively injury wise, continued basically a four

2405
01:50:41,239 --> 01:50:45,600
year running decline of offensive value coming off that rookie.

2406
01:50:45,680 --> 01:50:48,079
He used to have the rookie record for mad threes.

2407
01:50:48,159 --> 01:50:51,319
Conkinimple broke that, but was a forty percent three point shooter.

2408
01:50:51,720 --> 01:50:55,279
Year number two looks like an excellent wing defender. Does

2409
01:50:55,319 --> 01:50:57,359
none of that last year, does even less of it

2410
01:50:57,399 --> 01:51:00,479
this year. The situation Sacramento wasso shit that I am

2411
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:03,319
not willing to say Keegan Murray is a bust or

2412
01:51:03,359 --> 01:51:06,319
that contract extension he signed is just as they set

2413
01:51:06,359 --> 01:51:08,800
that money on fire. You got to get him on

2414
01:51:08,840 --> 01:51:11,680
a different team, and maybe that won't happen. But I

2415
01:51:11,720 --> 01:51:13,720
don't think you can just put all of this on him.

2416
01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:16,119
I think the situation is to blame, so I'm not

2417
01:51:16,199 --> 01:51:18,960
giving up on him. Also, smaller scale, not giving up

2418
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:22,159
on my guy. Quinton Post didn't shoot it very well

2419
01:51:22,199 --> 01:51:24,720
this year, and that was his carrying skill as a rookie,

2420
01:51:24,920 --> 01:51:28,199
but a little better defensively, a little better with all

2421
01:51:28,199 --> 01:51:31,079
the other offensive stuff besides shooting threes. I think maybe

2422
01:51:31,159 --> 01:51:34,840
year three you see a little bit of everything come

2423
01:51:34,880 --> 01:51:37,479
together and he has a much much better year because

2424
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:40,119
he looked if the three wasn't falling this year, it

2425
01:51:40,159 --> 01:51:42,399
was kind of like, why are you out there.

2426
01:51:43,800 --> 01:51:46,560
Speaker 1: I'm not giving up on Cody Williams. Showed some signs

2427
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:49,399
to close the season. Looks a lot stronger. It can

2428
01:51:49,439 --> 01:51:52,239
be more physical on his drives, keeps the ball moving.

2429
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:55,960
He's been better defensively than he was last year. Feels

2430
01:51:55,960 --> 01:51:59,039
like he could be a rotation wing on a really

2431
01:51:59,039 --> 01:52:01,920
good team. Jazz might be that really good team as

2432
01:52:01,920 --> 01:52:04,640
early as next season. I'm also still holding out hope

2433
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:07,439
for Zaire Williams. He's doing it again, Grant he had

2434
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:10,760
just enough of his threes. The off ball, defensive playmaking

2435
01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:13,640
was there. Maybe it's just sort of who else are

2436
01:52:13,720 --> 01:52:14,680
you going to latch onto?

2437
01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:17,319
Speaker 3: In Brooklyn? But I remain intrigued by him.

2438
01:52:17,479 --> 01:52:22,399
Speaker 1: And finally, Usman Jang has basically been a superstar since

2439
01:52:22,479 --> 01:52:24,960
arriving in the Milwaukee Bucks, and he's turned into just

2440
01:52:25,479 --> 01:52:27,520
we always named him as it looks like he has

2441
01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:29,399
feel for the game. And now he's in Milwaukee and

2442
01:52:29,439 --> 01:52:32,960
he's done a little bit of everything, especially on the

2443
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:33,720
offensive end.

2444
01:52:34,079 --> 01:52:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, good, good picks. Uh, Dan, I'm gonna ask you

2445
01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:40,960
to tell me which players receive too much hate.

2446
01:52:42,560 --> 01:52:45,840
Speaker 1: Let's start here. I think Brandon Pajamski gets too much hate.

2447
01:52:45,920 --> 01:52:46,800
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's.

2448
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:50,000
Speaker 1: Because Joe lacub decided that he was untouchable in trade

2449
01:52:50,039 --> 01:52:52,640
talks for a superstar. But this is someone who's, like,

2450
01:52:52,760 --> 01:52:55,600
to me, the quintessential gap filler, and he's not going

2451
01:52:55,640 --> 01:52:55,840
to be.

2452
01:52:56,199 --> 01:52:56,920
Speaker 3: He's never gonna be.

2453
01:52:56,920 --> 01:52:59,359
Speaker 1: The most athletic or the best shot creator. Overall, he's

2454
01:52:59,359 --> 01:53:02,319
a better shooter than we expected. He moves the ball,

2455
01:53:02,560 --> 01:53:04,520
he rebounds the hell out of the ball. He will

2456
01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:06,880
run the floor. I just think that this is a

2457
01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:12,520
really good player and that people are too disconnected from reality.

2458
01:53:12,560 --> 01:53:14,479
He was never supposed to be a superstar, and I

2459
01:53:14,520 --> 01:53:17,680
think that's hurt perception of what the value he's actually providing.

2460
01:53:19,359 --> 01:53:21,640
Speaker 2: You're wrong, he gets exactly the correct amount of hate.

2461
01:53:24,399 --> 01:53:27,560
You're probably right. I went a little different direction here.

2462
01:53:28,199 --> 01:53:28,680
Speaker 3: I got through.

2463
01:53:28,720 --> 01:53:30,880
Speaker 2: I think, okay, how about this. This is a little

2464
01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:33,640
bit like my Keegan Murray is not. I can't give

2465
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:36,119
up on him. I think Paulo Benkaro is getting dumped

2466
01:53:36,119 --> 01:53:37,680
on a little bit too much. Had like a mini

2467
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:41,079
renaissance after the All Star break where all the getting

2468
01:53:41,079 --> 01:53:43,000
to the basket numbers were trending in the right direction.

2469
01:53:43,439 --> 01:53:45,880
Everybody hates the long twos, everybody hates the shot diet.

2470
01:53:47,359 --> 01:53:50,000
His progress has stalled. He's not an MVP candidate. That

2471
01:53:50,079 --> 01:53:52,840
might have been another take you regret, is Paulo is

2472
01:53:52,880 --> 01:53:55,119
going to be an all NBA type guy. I think

2473
01:53:55,800 --> 01:53:58,600
I think we've just we've established it. Like the situation

2474
01:53:58,640 --> 01:54:00,880
in Orlando is not good. The offense, the ecosystem is

2475
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:05,159
poorly run, the personnel isn't great. So in the event

2476
01:54:05,199 --> 01:54:08,560
Jamal Moseley is replaced by somebody else, I think we're

2477
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:09,720
going to be right back where we were at the

2478
01:54:09,760 --> 01:54:12,079
beginning of this year, saying Okay, now, Paolo, I think

2479
01:54:12,119 --> 01:54:14,960
Paolo's I think it's not a problem with him. I

2480
01:54:14,960 --> 01:54:17,359
think it's the situation, the way he's being deployed. I

2481
01:54:17,439 --> 01:54:19,960
think that's a real possibility. And I'm not a Paolo guy.

2482
01:54:20,159 --> 01:54:22,119
I just think I think we've given up a little

2483
01:54:22,159 --> 01:54:23,239
too early on what he might be.

2484
01:54:24,439 --> 01:54:26,800
Speaker 1: Another player gets too much hate to me, Mihale Bridges.

2485
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:29,119
Everyone's so focused on the Knicks giving up control over

2486
01:54:29,159 --> 01:54:31,359
a trillion first round picks to get him, and I

2487
01:54:31,399 --> 01:54:33,800
get that he's inconsistent, but you sort of have to

2488
01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:36,520
even when looking at his new contract, he's never going

2489
01:54:36,600 --> 01:54:39,720
to be a top fifty paid player in the NBA.

2490
01:54:40,159 --> 01:54:44,119
The inconsistencies are kind of just baked into this archetype

2491
01:54:44,239 --> 01:54:47,079
of a player, and mcale Bridges could still be the

2492
01:54:47,119 --> 01:54:49,680
third or fourth best guy on a contender.

2493
01:54:49,960 --> 01:54:50,760
Speaker 3: That's what he is.

2494
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:54,520
Speaker 1: The problem is the Knicks gave up in trade assets

2495
01:54:54,680 --> 01:54:57,119
enough to proclaim that he needs to be the second

2496
01:54:57,159 --> 01:55:00,199
best player on a contender. I think that's where that

2497
01:55:00,279 --> 01:55:01,640
mega disconnect is happening.

2498
01:55:02,279 --> 01:55:04,039
Speaker 2: Can I try a hot take on you and say

2499
01:55:04,039 --> 01:55:06,680
that SGA I think maybe gets a little bit too

2500
01:55:06,760 --> 01:55:10,119
much hate. He's the poster boy for the the foul bating,

2501
01:55:10,199 --> 01:55:13,119
the use, the aggressive use of the off arm, all

2502
01:55:13,159 --> 01:55:16,520
that stuff. I just think there's a section of the NBA.

2503
01:55:16,560 --> 01:55:17,840
This is going to have to be a straw man

2504
01:55:17,920 --> 01:55:20,720
argument because I have to make the case, But like

2505
01:55:21,199 --> 01:55:25,359
there's too big of a section of the NBA fandom

2506
01:55:25,920 --> 01:55:28,880
that is just well, if he didn't have the if

2507
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:32,199
he didn't get away with these things, he's not an MVP,

2508
01:55:32,399 --> 01:55:34,680
or he's not you know, he's he would be greatly diminished.

2509
01:55:34,720 --> 01:55:37,960
I go the other way, and it's like the ability

2510
01:55:38,000 --> 01:55:41,079
to exploit all these rules is available to literally everybody.

2511
01:55:41,159 --> 01:55:43,479
He's just don't penalize him for figuring it out, and

2512
01:55:43,560 --> 01:55:45,439
I guarantee you that when the rules change, he will

2513
01:55:45,439 --> 01:55:47,960
figure out a way to score just as effectively in

2514
01:55:48,039 --> 01:55:52,359
those new circumstances. I'm annoyed by the idea that he's

2515
01:55:52,399 --> 01:55:56,319
somehow a much lesser player if the rules are different.

2516
01:55:56,399 --> 01:55:59,000
I just I just think that's crazy. So I think

2517
01:55:59,039 --> 01:56:01,760
he is not maybe's properly appreciated. Maybe that's a better

2518
01:56:01,760 --> 01:56:03,399
way to put it, because of the you know, the

2519
01:56:03,399 --> 01:56:06,880
off arm stuff is annoying, but you know, sorry for

2520
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:08,720
being the best of figuring out how to do that,

2521
01:56:09,000 --> 01:56:10,199
I guess, is what I'd say.

2522
01:56:11,119 --> 01:56:13,439
Speaker 3: Grant, Who's a player you were way too low on

2523
01:56:13,680 --> 01:56:14,520
during this season?

2524
01:56:15,079 --> 01:56:18,199
Speaker 2: Pretty easy start, Kiante George. Did not think he was

2525
01:56:18,239 --> 01:56:21,000
a helpful NBA player, and he might have been an

2526
01:56:21,039 --> 01:56:23,000
All Star if the Jazz had been a little better.

2527
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:25,600
And he's a guy that is a cornerstone now and

2528
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:29,640
Utah does not probably probably trade for Jaron Jackson if

2529
01:56:29,680 --> 01:56:34,720
George is not suddenly a cornerstone piece. So pretty far

2530
01:56:34,840 --> 01:56:38,119
off on him. Did not see the leap that he

2531
01:56:38,199 --> 01:56:38,720
made coming.

2532
01:56:39,880 --> 01:56:43,000
Speaker 1: I think I have to go with Anthony Black. I

2533
01:56:43,079 --> 01:56:45,000
did not see him having so much value as an

2534
01:56:45,000 --> 01:56:47,880
offensive player. Hitting his corner threes, has provided a bunch

2535
01:56:48,199 --> 01:56:50,479
of ball handling, and he's even improved on the defensive

2536
01:56:50,560 --> 01:56:52,760
end to where, oh, he's not just sort of the

2537
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:55,640
off ball event creators you like to call him, like, no,

2538
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:57,600
he will turn the water off of somebody when he's

2539
01:56:57,640 --> 01:57:00,000
guarding on the ball.

2540
01:56:59,840 --> 01:57:02,159
Speaker 2: I just have to throw Dylan Brooks in there. This

2541
01:57:02,239 --> 01:57:05,960
is like a fool me once. Shame on you, because

2542
01:57:06,119 --> 01:57:08,600
he goes to Houston changes kind of the dynamic of

2543
01:57:08,600 --> 01:57:12,000
that team. He now is in Phoenix and has changed it.

2544
01:57:12,439 --> 01:57:15,520
Like you can't just say it's it's only him, but

2545
01:57:16,159 --> 01:57:18,479
it's a couple stops in a row that have really

2546
01:57:18,520 --> 01:57:21,960
played very differently. And he's a twenty point scorer before

2547
01:57:21,960 --> 01:57:24,760
he got injured. And the shot that seems too hard,

2548
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:27,359
but he made those shots and he was really valuable offensively.

2549
01:57:27,840 --> 01:57:30,479
He was someone much like the Grizzlies a couple of

2550
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:32,199
years ago where I was just like, I'm not in

2551
01:57:32,199 --> 01:57:35,119
the Dylan Brooks business, and that was that's the wrong take.

2552
01:57:35,199 --> 01:57:36,319
I think he does help you win.

2553
01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:41,279
Speaker 1: Donovan Klingon just I was out on him entering the draft,

2554
01:57:41,279 --> 01:57:43,800
and I recognize that he was better during his rookie season,

2555
01:57:43,840 --> 01:57:46,800
comes in during his sophomore year, not always just better offensively,

2556
01:57:46,800 --> 01:57:48,479
he could stretch the floor a little bit, better, hands

2557
01:57:48,520 --> 01:57:51,039
around the basket, like we've said before, one of the

2558
01:57:51,079 --> 01:57:53,960
most dominant rim protectors in the game right now. This

2559
01:57:54,000 --> 01:57:56,520
is someone who I think could have has a case

2560
01:57:56,880 --> 01:57:59,439
to have made All Defense this season, which we believe

2561
01:57:59,439 --> 01:58:01,760
the Hes probably could make an All Defense team sometime

2562
01:58:01,760 --> 01:58:03,479
in the near future, which I did not have him

2563
01:58:03,479 --> 01:58:04,079
penciled in for.

2564
01:58:04,680 --> 01:58:04,880
Speaker 3: No.

2565
01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:07,920
Speaker 2: All right, Dan, give me a player that you were

2566
01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:10,039
too high on coming into this season.

2567
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:14,359
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go with Tarren Shannon Jr.

2568
01:58:14,520 --> 01:58:18,000
Speaker 1: I was not worried about the timber was losing Nikkeile

2569
01:58:18,000 --> 01:58:22,960
Alexander Walker, who might win Most Improved Player, because I thought.

2570
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:24,039
Speaker 3: Arren Shannon Jr.

2571
01:58:24,439 --> 01:58:27,199
Speaker 1: Was ready, was gonna give you more rim pressure, be

2572
01:58:27,199 --> 01:58:28,920
a little bit even more of a physical defender, and

2573
01:58:28,920 --> 01:58:31,960
at least replicate some of the shooter didn't ever have

2574
01:58:32,079 --> 01:58:33,960
the same shiftiness on the ball. But I just thought

2575
01:58:33,960 --> 01:58:35,760
the Wolves are gonna be fine. I know he's been

2576
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:37,720
injured a lot of this year, but he's basically not

2577
01:58:37,840 --> 01:58:41,079
even a Wolves rotation player. While Nikkeile Alexander Walker has

2578
01:58:41,079 --> 01:58:43,399
been a borderline All Star that's rough stuff.

2579
01:58:44,279 --> 01:58:48,159
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go with Khalil where this is a lesson

2580
01:58:48,279 --> 01:58:51,960
that whatever the physical tools are, don't forget to ask

2581
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:55,399
yourself the question does this guy understand what's happening out

2582
01:58:55,439 --> 01:58:57,800
there right now? And the answer for him has been

2583
01:58:57,880 --> 01:59:01,600
no a lot this season, and he driven his coach mad,

2584
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:05,640
and so I that might be something you can't teach,

2585
01:59:05,800 --> 01:59:08,159
the like processing speed, the like being in the right

2586
01:59:08,159 --> 01:59:10,560
place stuff. And I overlooked that, and I just saw

2587
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:14,119
the talent and that was a huge miss. I don't

2588
01:59:14,119 --> 01:59:15,920
know what his future is, but it is nowhere close

2589
01:59:15,960 --> 01:59:18,439
to as promising as I thought it was coming into

2590
01:59:18,479 --> 01:59:18,760
the year.

2591
01:59:19,800 --> 01:59:22,239
Speaker 1: I was also pretty wrong about Miles Turner. I had

2592
01:59:22,239 --> 01:59:25,560
talked myself into the Bucks understanding why the Bucks waived

2593
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:28,039
and stretched Damian Loard to sign him. You need a

2594
01:59:28,079 --> 01:59:32,399
four spacing big alongside Giannis. It's a prerequisite that hasn't changed.

2595
01:59:32,479 --> 01:59:36,159
But I don't This has been Miles Turner's least impactful

2596
01:59:36,199 --> 01:59:38,720
defensive season to me in recent memory, and has not

2597
01:59:38,720 --> 01:59:41,520
provided nearly enough offensive value. And now you have him

2598
01:59:41,520 --> 01:59:44,239
on this contract for another three years. That's not only

2599
01:59:44,279 --> 01:59:47,439
costing you twenty plus million dollars a year for Miles Turner.

2600
01:59:47,520 --> 01:59:49,680
But it's the other twenty plus million dollars a year.

2601
01:59:49,680 --> 01:59:51,800
You haven't dead money for Damian Lillard. So all of

2602
01:59:51,800 --> 01:59:53,720
a sudden, he's this forty five million dollars a year

2603
01:59:53,760 --> 01:59:57,119
player who's providing mid level value at best.

2604
01:59:57,159 --> 01:59:59,199
Speaker 3: At the moment, I thought, I thought the Bucks were

2605
01:59:59,199 --> 02:00:00,279
going to be better over all.

2606
02:00:00,720 --> 02:00:03,119
Speaker 1: Johannis's injury were part of that, but Myles Turner under

2607
02:00:03,159 --> 02:00:05,239
achieving factors into a.

2608
02:00:05,159 --> 02:00:07,680
Speaker 2: Couple of quick ones. John Morant. I thought maybe it

2609
02:00:07,760 --> 02:00:09,960
was just the on court stuff would be fine. Uh,

2610
02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:13,720
and he'll certainly mature, and like the talent levels decreased

2611
02:00:13,720 --> 02:00:16,199
and the injuries have increased. It's just I just I

2612
02:00:16,520 --> 02:00:18,479
wanted to give him one more shot. He didn't deliver,

2613
02:00:19,039 --> 02:00:22,760
and Evan Mobley the uh, the trajectory did not continue

2614
02:00:22,880 --> 02:00:26,319
upward unabated. Uh not, He's not a bad player. It's

2615
02:00:26,439 --> 02:00:29,199
just kind of thought this was gonna be another mini

2616
02:00:29,279 --> 02:00:32,479
leap to he's just gonna be an MVP. Thought gonna

2617
02:00:32,479 --> 02:00:35,359
be a first team All NBA guy. Hasn't happened. Note

2618
02:00:35,399 --> 02:00:37,159
I'm gonna be wrong again because I'm I'm gonna put

2619
02:00:37,199 --> 02:00:38,880
them right back up there starting next year.

2620
02:00:38,920 --> 02:00:43,640
Speaker 1: I bet grant, who is a player whose team would

2621
02:00:43,640 --> 02:00:44,800
be better off without them?

2622
02:00:44,920 --> 02:00:47,359
Speaker 3: Who wins that award? I mean, the.

2623
02:00:47,319 --> 02:00:49,920
Speaker 2: Atlanta Hawks were better without Trey Jung? Does that count?

2624
02:00:50,199 --> 02:00:52,560
Do we start there? Is that too high profile? Kind

2625
02:00:52,560 --> 02:00:57,399
of unfair? I'm gonna say Cam Thomas uh and Benedict Matheren,

2626
02:00:57,840 --> 02:01:02,239
I'm just gonna throw my chuckers, don't. I think in

2627
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:06,680
NBA roster builders, we have reached the point now where

2628
02:01:06,720 --> 02:01:10,039
you can't have the empty scoring two that doesn't defend

2629
02:01:10,159 --> 02:01:12,159
and can't figure out how to pass the ball, just

2630
02:01:12,199 --> 02:01:17,359
that player type. Everyone's lamenting small guards being useless now, sure,

2631
02:01:18,119 --> 02:01:21,520
but I think the highest scoring bench gunner guy. I

2632
02:01:21,520 --> 02:01:23,720
think we're good. I think we're good on those types

2633
02:01:23,720 --> 02:01:24,760
of players going forward.

2634
02:01:25,319 --> 02:01:27,399
Speaker 1: I mean, you did name all players whose teams got

2635
02:01:27,479 --> 02:01:30,359
rid of them too, So Kemp Thomas got jetted by

2636
02:01:30,399 --> 02:01:30,960
two teams.

2637
02:01:31,279 --> 02:01:32,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's impressive.

2638
02:01:32,600 --> 02:01:35,399
Speaker 2: They've decided. I'm not I'm not choosing him. His team's

2639
02:01:35,439 --> 02:01:36,399
decided this award.

2640
02:01:37,359 --> 02:01:39,880
Speaker 1: I think the Hornets for reasons that actually have to

2641
02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:42,920
do if we're even looking at only the basketball. Miles

2642
02:01:42,920 --> 02:01:45,520
Bridges I think is like the biggest empty calories guy,

2643
02:01:46,000 --> 02:01:48,319
even more so than a zach Lavine type of player.

2644
02:01:48,359 --> 02:01:50,439
I don't think he does anything to drive winning. He's

2645
02:01:50,520 --> 02:01:54,079
kind of just there. The shot making isn't nearly enough

2646
02:01:54,119 --> 02:01:57,000
to justify the volume, and he is malleable on the

2647
02:01:57,039 --> 02:01:59,760
defensive end in the sense that he has the body

2648
02:01:59,760 --> 02:02:02,239
type to be moved around the positional spectrum. But he's

2649
02:02:02,239 --> 02:02:04,399
not someone whose impact are gonna feel a ton.

2650
02:02:04,840 --> 02:02:06,199
Speaker 3: This one's a little spicier.

2651
02:02:07,039 --> 02:02:09,359
Speaker 1: Some of the on off numbers will say different, and

2652
02:02:09,439 --> 02:02:11,239
just some of the moments will say different. The roster

2653
02:02:11,319 --> 02:02:13,199
itself will say differently because they don't have a ton

2654
02:02:13,239 --> 02:02:17,319
of other true fives. Yakub Pearl in Toronto. Maybe I'm

2655
02:02:17,399 --> 02:02:20,079
just too overwhelmed by the fact that they had extended

2656
02:02:20,119 --> 02:02:23,279
him again. But I don't think that that team is

2657
02:02:23,319 --> 02:02:26,960
ever unless you're gonna change what your perimeter rotation looks

2658
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:29,720
like if you're trying to build around Scottie Barnes specifically,

2659
02:02:30,039 --> 02:02:33,319
I don't think Yakub Pearl is the ideal center to

2660
02:02:33,479 --> 02:02:35,399
have to eat up minutes there is again, as much

2661
02:02:35,439 --> 02:02:37,920
as he does, it's just greener. As high IQ as

2662
02:02:37,920 --> 02:02:40,039
he might be, it just doesn't make a ton of

2663
02:02:40,079 --> 02:02:43,239
sense to me, which makes their decision to extend him

2664
02:02:43,239 --> 02:02:45,119
even more curious than it wasn't a vacuum.

2665
02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:46,000
Speaker 3: I like that.

2666
02:02:46,159 --> 02:02:48,479
Speaker 2: I like that. I think Miles Bridges wins the award

2667
02:02:48,560 --> 02:02:52,880
that doesn't exist for most obvious starting lineup spot to

2668
02:02:53,039 --> 02:02:55,119
upgrade on a team that matters. It's like, oh, yeah,

2669
02:02:55,159 --> 02:02:56,960
obviously it's him, Like that's the one they got to

2670
02:02:56,960 --> 02:02:58,000
fix in their contender.

2671
02:02:58,760 --> 02:03:01,560
Speaker 1: Ooh, you don't think it's the spur with Julian CHAMPEENNI

2672
02:03:02,279 --> 02:03:07,399
I love that. Obviously, what did you think? We made

2673
02:03:07,439 --> 02:03:11,119
it through the awards and just over just over two hours.

2674
02:03:11,159 --> 02:03:14,079
Speaker 2: Pretty good. I don't know if we were award worthy

2675
02:03:14,119 --> 02:03:17,399
in our performance. We're we're award worthy in our accountability, though,

2676
02:03:18,039 --> 02:03:20,920
because we don't get to we don't get to pretend

2677
02:03:20,920 --> 02:03:23,000
like we picked somebody else five years from now, when

2678
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:25,680
it's very clear that I'm trying to pick a name here.

2679
02:03:26,600 --> 02:03:30,159
Uh A'man Thompson is the first team All NBA player.

2680
02:03:30,720 --> 02:03:33,079
You know that's a bad example. I think we did fine.

2681
02:03:33,079 --> 02:03:33,960
How'd you feel about it?

2682
02:03:34,920 --> 02:03:38,039
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted, but I'm I'm anxious for this to release

2683
02:03:38,079 --> 02:03:41,239
after Luca Hants has been disqualified.

2684
02:03:42,920 --> 02:03:45,720
Speaker 2: Or after the NBA decides you know what guys, voters,

2685
02:03:45,760 --> 02:03:48,359
before you do this, we're scrapping the rule now. So

2686
02:03:49,720 --> 02:03:52,039
Steph's and all Steph's on an All NBA third team

2687
02:03:52,239 --> 02:03:53,079
just if you want to.

2688
02:03:53,119 --> 02:03:55,520
Speaker 3: We don't care any would you put Steph on third team.

2689
02:03:55,319 --> 02:03:59,479
Speaker 2: After whatever the game's played threshold is he's below it

2690
02:03:59,520 --> 02:04:03,000
this year. If we still like that on Eastern per game,

2691
02:04:03,319 --> 02:04:05,720
per game all NBA, I put them on there.

2692
02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:08,720
Speaker 1: Here here's the new way we do awards is we

2693
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:14,119
pick a ten game sample size. We choose our MVPs

2694
02:04:14,119 --> 02:04:17,119
and all NBA teams based off who has the highest

2695
02:04:17,119 --> 02:04:19,359
ten game peak each and every season.

2696
02:04:19,399 --> 02:04:22,359
Speaker 2: That's a So just is Bam out of bio because

2697
02:04:22,399 --> 02:04:24,680
he had that one game? Is he gonna be an

2698
02:04:24,720 --> 02:04:25,800
All NBA first teamer?

2699
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:29,119
Speaker 1: Just the other surrounding games impact. It's if it's a

2700
02:04:29,199 --> 02:04:29,840
rolling peak.

2701
02:04:30,319 --> 02:04:32,439
Speaker 2: I mean, it's gonna be hard to have a bad

2702
02:04:32,479 --> 02:04:34,600
ten game stretch if one of them has eighty three points.

2703
02:04:34,920 --> 02:04:37,239
Speaker 1: Imagine if, honestly, if we did ten game peaks, do

2704
02:04:37,279 --> 02:04:39,520
you know how many MVP awards Kawhi would probably have

2705
02:04:39,600 --> 02:04:40,159
at this point?

2706
02:04:41,960 --> 02:04:44,600
Speaker 2: I mean, you had a pretty good Sirs, Luca with this,

2707
02:04:44,800 --> 02:04:46,600
He's got to have a stretch in the middle of March.

2708
02:04:46,640 --> 02:04:49,520
That was just unbelievable. Yeah, next year, next year, we'll

2709
02:04:49,520 --> 02:04:51,159
do it. I think that's the way it go.

2710
02:04:51,680 --> 02:04:53,880
Speaker 3: That'd be so, that'd be so great. Now, that'd be awful.

2711
02:04:54,000 --> 02:04:54,520
That'd be awful.

2712
02:04:54,560 --> 02:04:57,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, to close, please do away with the sixty

2713
02:04:57,359 --> 02:04:59,960
five with the sixty five game role already, I don't.

2714
02:05:00,119 --> 02:05:03,079
I don't know who it's helping or what it's accomplishing

2715
02:05:03,279 --> 02:05:03,920
at some point.

2716
02:05:04,239 --> 02:05:05,119
Speaker 3: Nothing in theory.

2717
02:05:05,159 --> 02:05:07,439
Speaker 1: It should make our jobs a little easier because you know,

2718
02:05:07,560 --> 02:05:09,880
you can't pick this player, but it's really just made

2719
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:11,039
us crankier.

2720
02:05:11,359 --> 02:05:14,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is hard to do. Pretty cranky as a baseline,

2721
02:05:14,279 --> 02:05:17,159
So you know it's a bad rule if it's increasing

2722
02:05:17,159 --> 02:05:19,399
the crankiness. You got anything else we should discuss or

2723
02:05:19,399 --> 02:05:21,680
shall we? Should we call it now?

2724
02:05:21,800 --> 02:05:23,560
Speaker 1: Let us know who your awards picks were in the

2725
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:25,000
comments or join our discord.

2726
02:05:25,000 --> 02:05:27,720
Speaker 3: Love to hear from everyone who who they have. I don't.

2727
02:05:27,840 --> 02:05:29,319
Speaker 1: I think that all of our picks, even the ones

2728
02:05:29,359 --> 02:05:31,640
that different, were just perfect. Me honestly, I think the

2729
02:05:31,640 --> 02:05:36,239
biggest surprise of the exercise was having chet Holme first

2730
02:05:36,239 --> 02:05:37,560
team All Rookie by me.

2731
02:05:38,399 --> 02:05:42,199
Speaker 2: He's probably pretty surprised when he watches this, he's gonna

2732
02:05:42,199 --> 02:05:45,199
say what happened? I mean he technically he didn't have

2733
02:05:45,199 --> 02:05:47,039
a rookie year, so I mean.

2734
02:05:47,439 --> 02:05:49,479
Speaker 3: Honestly, he wasn't even first team. He was second team.

2735
02:05:49,520 --> 02:05:52,560
So be better, Chet, if you were may first team.

2736
02:05:52,920 --> 02:05:56,399
Speaker 2: Maybe try to beat out Cedric Coward next time. Get

2737
02:05:56,399 --> 02:05:59,840
it together. Thanks everybody for listening, for watching, Remember rate

2738
02:05:59,880 --> 02:06:02,920
for you subscribe, Leave us a comment on YouTube that

2739
02:06:02,920 --> 02:06:05,199
helps help the algorithm. Love us back, as Dan said,

2740
02:06:05,319 --> 02:06:07,359
join the arn discord links for that in the YouTube

2741
02:06:07,399 --> 02:06:10,880
and podcast description. Tell your friends, tell your enemies until

2742
02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:13,640
next time, shouts Frank Nila China An apologies to Jared Allen,

2743
02:06:13,680 --> 02:06:16,640
neither of whom even got considered for an award this year.