WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:32.560 Welcome back to part of our series about the Austin 2 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.679 Yogurt shot murders and the recent resolution of the case. 3 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:39.479 So I, given that this was the early nineteen nineties 4 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:41.719 in Texas, I'm sure it won't surprise you to learn 5 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:45.159 that we also have a touch of Satanic panic, because 6 00:00:45.479 --> 00:00:47.880 this is pretty much a kitchen sink case when it 7 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:51.960 comes to finding colorful suspects. But the police started receiving 8 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:54.759 tips about a group of local residents who were nicknamed 9 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:58.799 the People in Black, who supposedly had an interest in 10 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:02.799 the occult and vanism and would perform activities like dancing 11 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:05.480 on tombstones, and of course there were rumors in the 12 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.439 area that they were all part of a Satanic cult. 13 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.680 The leader of the group was a woman called Claire LeVay, 14 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:14.280 which is probably not a real name. I think she 15 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:16.959 changed it as a homage to the Church of Satan 16 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:21.000 founder Aunt Don Leavey. Yeah exactly. But what's hilarious is 17 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:23.719 that forty eight hours this was when they started covering 18 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:28.799 the Austin yogurt shop murders. You know, you know Aaron Moriarty, right, Oh, yes. 19 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:30.079 I know who Aaron Moriarty is. 20 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:32.640 Yes, this is pretty much one of her pet cases 21 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:35.359 because she was assigned to cover it back in nineteen 22 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:38.040 ninety two and then would keep covering the case for 23 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.560 like the next thirty years. She came very passionate about it. 24 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:44.319 But what's hilarious is one of her first assignments is 25 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:47.319 when forty eight hours the camera crew was given permission 26 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:50.959 when they performed a raid of Claire LaVey's house in 27 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:53.560 order to bring her in for questioning and see if 28 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.200 she had any knowledge of the yogurt shop murders. And 29 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:58.560 when the police broke and burst down the door and 30 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:01.040 came in with the camera crew, turned out that Claire 31 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.920 LaVey was naked inside and pleasuring herself with a vibrator 32 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:08.960 just when the police arrived, which is a very hilarious 33 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:12.479 story in a very sad case. But they found like 34 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:14.719 a skull inside, but it turned out it was made 35 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:17.000 of wax, and she had some bones in there, but 36 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.280 they belonged to animals like rats and squirrels. And of 37 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:22.840 course when John Jones looked into her, he realized, no, 38 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:25.000 she's got nothing to do with this. This is just 39 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:27.280 like a false le at, a red herring, and they 40 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:30.000 dropped it. But thankfully they had some good sense this time, 41 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.719 because we've seen so many of the satanic panic lead 42 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:35.800 to innocent people being railroaded. But in this case, Claire 43 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:38.719 LaVey was just embarrassed rather than falsely in prison. 44 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:43.919 I mean, get it, Claire Leavey don't want to yuck 45 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:46.800 her yum. I mean, I can understand that she would 46 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:49.319 have been embarrassed because you don't expect law enforcement to 47 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.360 come bursting in. Well, one is in the act of 48 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:56.199 pleasuring themselves. But you're right, that is a really hilarious 49 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.599 spot in a very very dark case. And you can't 50 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:03.879 have a nineteen nineties case it's unsolved without having like 51 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:07.639 some kind of smattering of satanic panic, just like sprinkled 52 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:08.439 in for good measure. 53 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:11.800 It feels like pretty much. Yeah. And for the record, 54 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:14.120 that footage of her with the vibrator did not make 55 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:16.599 the forty eight Hours episode that they didn't want that 56 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:19.599 going on a network TV. So there would be one 57 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.879 more very interesting false lead, and this time it involved 58 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:27.039 a gang of Mexican bikers from a gang called Nierrada's Punks. 59 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:30.280 It was because an Hispanic looking man with long hair 60 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:32.919 in a car had been seen parked outside the yogurt 61 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.759 shop on the night of the murders, and the eventually 62 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:37.879 I thought they had identified them as a trio of 63 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:44.159 bikers named Alberto Jimenez, Cortes, Portfrio Villa Severrada and Ricardo Hernandez. 64 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:47.360 And these were dangerous guys because three weeks before the 65 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:50.120 yogurt shop murders they had actually abducted a young women 66 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:53.120 from a nightclub in Austin and proceeded to gang Raper 67 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:55.919 before letting her go. So they put out an a 68 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.479 restaurant for these guys. They wondered if they might have 69 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.479 been responsible for the yogurt shp crime, but they had 70 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:05.120 escaped over the border into Mexico. But in October of 71 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:09.000 nineteen ninety two, nearly a year later, they finally captured 72 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:12.560 two of them, Cortes and Seretta, for other crimes such 73 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:16.759 as drug trafficking and gun smuggling, and as we were 74 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.480 being held in custody by the Mexican authorities, they both 75 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.040 supposedly confessed to being responsible for the yogurt shop murders. 76 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.079 But thankfully John Jones was still on the case and 77 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:30.480 once he read the confession, he instantly became skeptical because 78 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:33.240 there were a lot of incorrect details, because one of 79 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:36.720 them even said that the girls were cut up and mutilated. 80 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:40.399 So Jones decided to perform his own interview with these 81 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.800 guys where they recanted these confessions and claimed that they 82 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.319 had only done it because they had been tortured by 83 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:50.639 the Mexican authorities, because obviously down there there's more human 84 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.519 rights violations, and it seemed like the Mexican authorities wanted 85 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:58.279 to take credit for solving this very infamous American crime, 86 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.959 so they tortured these two by into making a false confession. 87 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:04.720 And they weren't bad guys. They did go to prison 88 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:07.360 for the gang rape, so they deserve to be locked up, 89 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.399 but they were ultimately ruled out as being responsible for 90 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:13.759 the yogurt shop murders. But it just kind of demonstrated 91 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:16.120 what a big farce this case was becoming because we 92 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:19.639 were finding all these colorful suspects, many of them were confessing, 93 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.199 yet there was no evidence to implicate any of them. 94 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:25.879 And like, Okay, the year's nineteen ninety one. We've got 95 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:31.120 like really rudimentary internet. It's pretty basic, and I've just 96 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.000 got to wonder what type of news media was reaching 97 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:38.639 Mexico about the Austin yogurt shop murders. It wouldn't be 98 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:42.040 like it is today. There wasn't social media, So like, 99 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:46.079 what was going through these two Mexican or Mexican police 100 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:50.720 officers who are questioning these bikers and they're like, hey, bro, 101 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.279 let's just get these guys to confess so that we 102 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.959 can take credit for solving the Austin yogurt shop murders. 103 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.920 What I mean, I guess it'd be because it's near 104 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:03.920 the Mexican border to Austin that maybe word has spread 105 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:05.399 about it down there and they had heard of it. 106 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:07.399 But I think they just saw it as an opportunity 107 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.920 because maybe they saw in the police band that they 108 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.839 were wanted for questioning and the yogurt shot murders, and 109 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.120 once they realized that they had them in custody for 110 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:17.199 other crimes, they said, oh, this will be a big 111 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:19.560 coup for us if we can solve this case and 112 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:22.040 make the Americans look bad. But of course they didn't 113 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:24.519 do it, and all they got were false confessions. But 114 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:26.839 it just showed how much time was wasted in the 115 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:30.199 early years pursuing all these leads that ultimately went nowhere. 116 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.800 Yeah, it's just like everybody who is faced with a suspect, 117 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.279 no matter how credible they are or how credible the 118 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:41.120 details that they give are, they're just so hungry for 119 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:44.040 a result that they want to solve the case. And 120 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:47.160 I'm sure that the motivations are many that some people 121 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.800 who want to solve it, they truly have their eye 122 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:52.600 on justice and they want to solve it because they 123 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:55.800 want to give the families that resolution and to be 124 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:58.680 able to give the community that resolution. And then there's 125 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.480 other people where it's more of an ego project, right, 126 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:03.759 and it's like, Okay, well, if I do this, it's 127 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:07.199 going to make me look so good. And then Mexico 128 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:09.480 doing that and be like, let's torture these guys and 129 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.000 get this result. I'm not laughing at the torture, It 130 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:16.240 just it seems absolutely absurd to me that they would 131 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:18.879 then try their hand at this where these guys clearly 132 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:22.319 didn't do it. Yeah, they're bad guys and they did 133 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.959 deserve to be locked up, but not for the Austin 134 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:25.839 yogurt chop. 135 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:30.160 Murders exactly, because, as we're going to talk about, the 136 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.439 real killer was getting away with it. And when we 137 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.079 get to the end and I reveal who the real 138 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.800 killer was, it's going to horrify you how many other 139 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:39.360 crimes he was getting away with while they were looking 140 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:43.720 at the wrong suspects in this case. So, unfortunately, the 141 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:46.560 case would remain solid for the next several years. Like 142 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:49.360 I said, John Jones was transferred off the case and 143 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:52.680 everything went cold. But in August of nineteen ninety nine, 144 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:55.639 the Austin pe decided to form a new task force 145 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:58.439 to relaunch the investigation and would it be led by 146 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:02.399 a homicide detective named Paul Johnson and assisted by some 147 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:06.120 other detectives named Ron Laura, John Hardisty and Robert Merrill, 148 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.839 who pretty much decided, we're going to solve this at 149 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:11.879 any costs. So while looking back through the files, they 150 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:14.879 found out about this whole lead involving Maurice Pearce and 151 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:19.160 how he had implicated three accomplices, Robert Springsteen, Michael Scott 152 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:22.600 and Forrest Wellborn, and they hadn't been looked at in years, 153 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:24.879 and even though there was no evidence against them other 154 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:29.160 than like a half ass confession from Maurice, they decide, well, 155 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:31.800 they're in the mid twenties now and they're now living 156 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:34.440 with jobs and they have families of their own. Some 157 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:37.080 of them even have children, why not bring them back 158 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:39.879 in and question them again? And like I mentioned back 159 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:42.080 in nineteen ninety one, they were all like kind of 160 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:45.879 juvenile delinquents. They were high school dropouts who spent a 161 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:48.120 lot of the time partying, didn't seem to have much 162 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:51.080 focus in life. Some of them had some misdemeanor crimes. 163 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.320 Maurice had been arrested once for drunk driving, Mike had 164 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:57.360 been arrested once for possession of weed. Forrest had once 165 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:00.720 been arrested for driving with a suspended license. Once again, 166 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:03.879 none of these guys had any documented history of violence 167 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:07.039 to suggest they were capable of a crime this heinous, 168 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:09.399 and they were all teenagers at the time. We had 169 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:12.120 two seventeen year olds, one sixteen year old and won 170 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:15.200 fifteen year old. And the crime really looked like it 171 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:17.200 was committed by an offender who had a lot of 172 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:20.759 prior experience of that and may not have been their 173 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:24.600 first murder. But regardless, they still wanted to question them again. 174 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:27.799 So the next first person who was brought in was 175 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:30.480 Michael Scott, and the first thing he said in his 176 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:33.320 interrogation room was I got a sorry, guys, but I 177 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:36.320 had memory issues. I may have trouble for getting stuff 178 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:39.879 that took place nearly eight years earlier. And I think 179 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.240 they took advantage of that because as they started interrogating 180 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.039 him for several hours, they started planting the seat in 181 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:48.559 the head that he may have committed the murder and 182 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:52.320 completely blacked out and forgotten about it. So at one point, 183 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:55.360 ten hours into his interrogation, Michael was given a cell 184 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:57.440 phone in order to call his wife and he actually 185 00:09:57.440 --> 00:09:59.960 said to her, quote, I know more about this case 186 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:00.960 than I thought I knew. 187 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.799 Oh my god. That just gives me such a shudder 188 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:07.720 to think that, like, poor Michael Scott, who's clearly got 189 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.600 memory issues, and he's telling the police this and they 190 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:14.159 seem to be weaponizing it against him. And I don't 191 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:17.840 know how much of this is done in a calculated 192 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:21.519 manner and that they actually believe that he's guilty, or 193 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:23.360 if they're just like, this guy looks like he could 194 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:25.440 be good for it. Let's just take advantage of this. 195 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.759 It just seems like such low hanging fruit. When you 196 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:32.960 take somebody who's got any type of mild cognitive impairment 197 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.360 or somebody who is easily influenced, you can plant the 198 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:39.240 seeds and make them believe that they did just about anything, 199 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.440 which is why one of the techniques that is allowed 200 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:44.080 in the US, I don't know if we allow it 201 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:47.399 in Canada. That I hate is when police lie to 202 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:50.919 suspects and they say, we have your DNA here, And 203 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.320 I think that like when you say to somebody who 204 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:58.519 has or suffers from any kind of cognitive issues or 205 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:02.840 memory issues, or they're very easily influenced, that if you 206 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:06.679 say that, then there's a strong likelihood that you're going 207 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:08.879 to get a percentage of those people who are going 208 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:11.120 to go, oh, my DNA was there, I must have 209 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.480 been there, I must be guilty. And then it's just 210 00:11:14.519 --> 00:11:18.080 a really dangerous trajectory for the rest of the interrogation 211 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.600 because you can very easily plant the seeds and make 212 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:24.559 somebody believe that they themselves committed this crime, which seems 213 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:25.840 like that's what happened here. 214 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.960 Yeah, Like they did let Michael go go back home 215 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:32.039 to his wife, but then they brought him in again 216 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:34.679 the following day and continue to go at him for 217 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:38.159 several more hours, and then finally, after being interrogated for 218 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:40.799 a total of eighteen hours over the course of two days, 219 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:43.879 he finally admitted that he participated the murders and then 220 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:47.559 signed a fourteen page confession. But you talked about how 221 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:49.759 they can lie to suspects to plant the seeds in 222 00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:51.799 their heads that they might have done it, and we 223 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.039 have an example of it here because Michael claimed that 224 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:57.799 his alibi around the time of the yogurt Chop murders. 225 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.759 This is another colorful detail is that he and Robert 226 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:04.000 Springsteen were attending a midnight screening of the Rocky Horror 227 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:06.879 Picture Show, which is taking place at the local mall, 228 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.960 and they at one point during the interrogation, what if 229 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.240 I told you that we checked and the Rocky Horror 230 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:14.799 Picture Show wasn't playing at the theater that night, And 231 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:17.480 of course that wasn't true. They didn't go back and 232 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.159 check records for a movie that took place eight years ago. 233 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:22.759 They just said it randomly in the interview, and of 234 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.039 course Michael started doubting himself. Oh so maybe I wasn't 235 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.960 actually there. Maybe I could have been in the yogret 236 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.840 shop committing these murders. And that's what eventually paved the 237 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:33.039 way for him to confessing. 238 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.200 And so often in these cases you see a situation 239 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:42.919 where somebody will say I have memory impairment issues. They 240 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:45.799 may take advantage of that by pushing really hard, not 241 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:49.120 giving him a break. If he doesn't have access to 242 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.519 a lawyer and he doesn't know to ask for when 243 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:54.240 there's a problem, and if he doesn't have any food, 244 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:56.960 he doesn't have any beverages, maybe he's not allowed to 245 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:59.720 go to the bathroom. We don't know the whole scenario 246 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.120 played out there or is there a video of it. 247 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:06.679 There is some video tape interrogation, but he did get 248 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:08.440 some breaks and stuff. But you're correct he did not 249 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:10.759 have a lawyer there when he was doing this because 250 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.759 he probably figured, well, I had nothing to do with this. 251 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:15.879 Here we are years later. I'm just going to answer 252 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:19.039 questions and make things easier for them, little knowing that 253 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:21.759 they're trying to like extract a false confession from them. 254 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:25.000 Well, in the nineties, that was kind of the idea, right, like, 255 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:28.240 if you didn't commit the crime, if you are innocent, 256 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:31.039 then you've got nothing to hide. Why would you need 257 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.879 a lawyer? I think it's only upon examination of all 258 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.399 of these wrongful conviction cases that we've seen, you absolutely 259 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:42.080 need a lawyer, whether you're guilty or whether you're innocent. 260 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.120 The police aren't looking out for your best interests. You 261 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.200 need to preserve your interest and the only way that 262 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.799 you can do that is hiring a legal professional to 263 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:55.960 have them help facilitate that conversation. 264 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.759 Oh yeah, exactly. And he never would have even considered that. 265 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.919 I mean, all these four suspects, they're not considered to 266 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.440 be disabled or anything. But when they were in high school, 267 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:07.960 they had to take special education courses, so they weren't 268 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.639 exactly very smart people. And obviously they're more kind of 269 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:13.919 more simple minded, Like they can function on their own, 270 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:17.240 they can live lives, have families, and have careers, but 271 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:19.120 they're just not going to think to themselves that if 272 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:21.399 the police are bringing me into question, to me, they're 273 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.399 going to make me confess to something I didn't do. 274 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.320 Since he implicated Robert Springsteen, he was brought in for 275 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:30.399 questioning next. At this point, he had moved out of 276 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:34.159 Texas and was living in West Virginia, so detectives Ron 277 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:37.159 Laura and Robert Merrill went over there to question him. 278 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:40.159 And when they brought Robert in, he had worked multiple 279 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:42.679 shifts at his two jobs, so he had gotten virtually 280 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.879 no sleep. And I think it had been up for like 281 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.480 twenty hours at that point, so they only had to 282 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.480 interrogate him for about four hours before he just got 283 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:53.600 so exhausted that he told them what he wanted to 284 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:56.480 hear and finally confess that he was involved in the 285 00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:59.600 murder as well. And I know that there was one 286 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.919 point where he just got so frustrated when they tried 287 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:05.919 to press him saying that you sexually assaulted this thirteen 288 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:09.879 year old girl, Amy Errs, and he finally snapped and said, Okay, 289 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:11.879 I did it. I put my dick in my pussy 290 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:14.120 and I raped her. And of course he just said 291 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.840 that out of frustration. He obviously didn't mean it. But 292 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.360 they played the videotape of that at his trial, so 293 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:22.639 you can only imagine what a terrible impression that set 294 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:23.360 for the jury. 295 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.279 Yeah. I can't imagine that the jury would have listened 296 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:32.320 to that and had any great thoughts about him. It's 297 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:36.639 just so graphic, Yeah, exactly. And I think once they 298 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:39.200 saw that, it didn't even matter what other evidence was 299 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:42.519 against him, they pretty much probably decided this guy is guilty, 300 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:45.200 because no one who was innocent would say something like that. 301 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:49.399 So in the end, Mike and Rob gave these two 302 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:53.080 different statements that had some contradictory details, but the police 303 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:56.200 eventually kind of combined them together into what they believed 304 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:59.679 was a scenario about what they believe happened. What both 305 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:02.000 men said is that the mastermind of the crime was 306 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:05.440 Maurice Pierce, and that was a robbery gone wrong, that 307 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:07.759 the group had been casing the yogurt shop since the 308 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:12.200 afternoon and after evening hit Maurice entered first and purchased 309 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:15.879 a yogurt in order to keep Jennifer and Eliza distracted, 310 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.240 while Michael and Roberts knucking through the back area and 311 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:22.600 unlocked the rear door, and they proceeded to use a 312 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.240 folded pack of cigarettes to prop the door open, which 313 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.879 would allow them to exit the shop during closing time. 314 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.559 They implicated Forrest well Born, but said he did not 315 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:33.279 directly participate in the crime, that he just sat in 316 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.080 the group's getaway car in order to function his a lockout, 317 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:39.600 and that Maurice, Mike, and rob did the robbery themselves 318 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:42.919 after eleven PM after closing, but were completely thrown off 319 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:46.039 by the fact that Sarah and Amy were in the back, 320 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.600 so they weren't expecting four girls to be there instead 321 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.639 of two and their story was that after the register 322 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.559 was opened, Maurice was angry because there wasn't as much 323 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:57.639 hash in there as he was expecting, so he accused 324 00:16:57.639 --> 00:16:59.639 the girls of lying and demanded to know where the 325 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:01.960 rest of the money was, even though they maintained there 326 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.319 was no more money. They then forced the girls to undress, 327 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.119 tied them up a gunpoint, and when Eliza and Jennifer 328 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.000 continued to maintain that there was no additional money, Maurice 329 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.319 shot them both in the back of the head, and 330 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.880 then he ordered Robert to rape Amy, which he did, 331 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.680 and he also ordered Michael to rape Sarah, but he 332 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:22.559 says he couldn't go through with it because he was 333 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.599 unable to achieve an erection, and then he told Michael 334 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:28.519 to shoot the other two girls in the head or 335 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:32.000 he would be mit next. So Mike complied, and of course, 336 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:34.200 after Mike shot Amy twice in the head with a 337 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:36.799 twenty two caliber gun, he pulled out a three eighty 338 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:40.599 pistol to fire the kill shot. So they claimed that 339 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:43.880 after that they set the girls on fire and used 340 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.240 lighter fluid in order to get it started, but claimed 341 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.680 that when they fled the shop, they discovered that forest 342 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:52.519 well Born was no longer in the getaway car, so 343 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.240 they climbed into the vehicle, drove after him and came 344 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:58.119 across Forrest walking down the street, and then picked him up. 345 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:00.720 And then they went to a bridge and toss the 346 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:03.480 three eighty pistol into Lake Austin, which is one of 347 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.480 the first strange details of the crime because they used 348 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.920 two murder weapons. Yet why would they throw one of 349 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:10.680 them into the lake and then hold on to the 350 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:14.319 other one. I can see how like a jury, if 351 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:17.720 they were going to listen to this, that they would think, Wow, 352 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.680 this is highly specific. These guys have a lot of details. 353 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.400 How would they have these details unless they themselves committed 354 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.200 the murders. Because I don't think that most juries in 355 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.200 the nineteen nineties, especially ninety one, are going to look 356 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.160 at it and think, oh, maybe the police fed them 357 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:38.000 these details. Maybe this is BS. I would think that 358 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.920 there was much more of a trust for law enforcement 359 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.240 and the methods by which they would extract confessions. They 360 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.200 would think these people are on trial, there's a reason 361 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.720 for it. They're likely guilty. And if they're confessing and 362 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:54.000 they're saying these things. If you go back to the 363 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:57.640 nineteen nineties and what people's knowledge of false confessions was 364 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:01.720 and the idea around law enforcement and extracting false confessions. 365 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.519 I would think it would be much more centered around 366 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.279 you're going to trust the police, these guys have too 367 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.039 many details, they're probably guilty, or why would the prosecutor 368 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:11.799 bring charges? 369 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:15.240 And that's pretty much the mentality, because they would be 370 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:20.279 charged without any other evidence besides these confessions. And sure enough, 371 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:23.559 after Robert and Michael confessed, they charged both of them, 372 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:26.680 as well as Maurice Pierce and Forrest Wellborn for the 373 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.880 Roles and the yogurt chop murders. But there was a 374 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:33.400 big problem because even though Maurice and Forrest were extensively interrogated, 375 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:36.960 they maintained their innocence from the outset and never did confess. 376 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.680 And of course, shortly thereafter, Robert and Michael both recanted 377 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.079 their confessions, saying that they were under such pressure and 378 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.400 were being manipulated that they finally told the police what 379 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.359 they wanted to hear. So essentially, you're trying to put 380 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:53.400 four guys on trial for the same crime on the 381 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.160 basis of nothing more than two confessions that were only 382 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.000 made by half of them. So the big problem here 383 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.039 was forres wellb Born is figuring out how to charge 384 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.960 him because in both the confessions they say that he 385 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.279 did not directly participate in the murder. They just said 386 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:10.000 that he was in the getaway car, he tried to 387 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:13.000 run away. And with these confessions they couldn't even prove 388 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:15.920 that Forrest knew that any murders were going to take place, 389 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.039 So what exactly could they put him on trial with. 390 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:22.279 There was really no evidence that had he even done anything wrong. 391 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:25.880 So at one point he was approached by prosecutors and 392 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:28.480 was given an offer to testify against his three co 393 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:32.240 defendants in exchange for immunity. And this isn't a reduced 394 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:35.000 sentence for a quadruple murder. This is immunity, which meant 395 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.519 no jail time whatsoever. And he pretty much said, no, 396 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:40.680 I was not involved in this, I didn't do it. 397 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.880 I'm not going to testify, even though it meant he 398 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:44.480 could have walked right then and there. 399 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:50.319 Wow, Forrest, that's impressive because he looked at the picture 400 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:54.160 holistically and it wasn't just hey, I want I'm out 401 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.680