WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:01.360 Hopefully streaming art work. 2 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:04.559 It didn't work last other Warlife. Yeah, we are live. Hi, 3 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:07.040 this is William Ramsey. Welcome to William Ramsey investigates on 4 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:08.880 today's show of a very special guest. He comes to 5 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:12.160 us from the UK. His name is Stuart Smith, and 6 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:15.560 I saw him on Netflix. I saw him on a 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:20.640 documentary titled Europe's Most Dangerous Man, Auto Skorzeny in Spain, 8 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:23.760 and so I was really fascinated by the subject. And 9 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:26.120 I'd heard a little bit about Skorzeny's name, just as 10 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.800 my interest in World War Two. But Stuart's an expert 11 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.600 on Scorzenny. He wrote this book titled Auto Skorzenny The 12 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:38.799 Devil's Disciple, published twenty eighteen, a terrific book with forty 13 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:41.600 two five star reviews. So it's very well received on Amazon. 14 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:43.799 So people can go check that out. But Stuart's going 15 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:46.119 to talk more about that. So Stuart Smith, are you. 16 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:48.119 There, I'm there, yeah, Hello. 17 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:51.000 Yeah, great, Well thanks for getting to the interview for 18 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:53.119 people may not have heard your name. Can you talk 19 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:55.079 about your background and what led you to write this 20 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:57.200 book Otto Skorzeny The Devil's Disciple. 21 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:05.799 Sure, surely I studied history at University. Modern history included, 22 00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:07.959 but not exclusively, so cerdainly not the end of the 23 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:10.879 Second World War in any great detail. But then I 24 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:14.000 became a journalist. I was a business journalist, a specialist. 25 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:17.120 I edited a quite a well known marketing magazine in 26 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:20.000 the UK, and after I left that job as editor, 27 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:23.280 done it for twenty years, I set up my own blog, 28 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:26.359 became a consultant. And one day when I was working 29 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.879 with another of my colleagues from the same magazine, earlier editor, 30 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:35.680 we were putting stuff together and a submission came in 31 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:38.040 and it was a strange submission. It mentioned this character 32 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:40.640 called Otto Scott Senni, who I barely heard of, and 33 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:43.239 I had a pretty good outline knowledge of what happened 34 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:46.079 in the Second World War, who had apparently rescued Massolini. 35 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:50.480 This man was a former, very well known creative director 36 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:54.599 in a UK advertising agency. And what he was trying 37 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.359 to do, I suppose was it came across as slightly 38 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:01.959 pretentious but interesting, was to say that there are different 39 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:04.000 kinds of creative. You don't just have to be good 40 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:09.159 at a partner or film. And in his sphere, Otto 41 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:12.120 scots Sony was highly creative because he thought of the 42 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.639 vertical axis, as he called it when rescuing Mussolini from 43 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:19.240 imprisonment in the middle of Italy in nineteen forty three, 44 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:22.960 some of which was true, and I thought, is this, well, 45 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.360 let's have a look at that. That's almost too good 46 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:28.080 to be true. Was he such a so called creative 47 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:31.759 genius and military terms? And when I looked at it, 48 00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:36.719 I discovered he had indeed participate in the expedition to 49 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:41.840 release Bussolini from captivity, but that there was an awful 50 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:44.879 lot of controversy about him. A lot of people, including 51 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.680 those who served with him, said he had he was there, 52 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:51.719 but someone else actually dreamed up the plan to rescue Mussolini. 53 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.400 And then I started looking at the rest of Otto 54 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:57.319 Scotts in his career, and the one consistent thing about 55 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:04.000 it is he's never without controversy. Everything he did attracted attention, 56 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:07.560 some positive, not always there. And there are a number 57 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:11.199 of events in his military career which I then touched on. 58 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:15.319 And then I discovered that he'd had rather good war 59 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:18.960 ultimately because he'd escaped justice and we can go into 60 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.680 what justice might have been later and lived the what 61 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:28.159 you might call the life of Riley, which did include it. 62 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.599 It did include a mansion house in Ireland eventually, but 63 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:35.319 mostly it was in Spain between nineteen fifty and nineteen 64 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:39.039 seventy five when he died in his bed, right. 65 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:41.400 I mean, he's just an incredible character, Like how he 66 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:45.199 skirted it, being involved in so many things, so many operations, 67 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:49.000 how he skirted justice for all those years. People say 68 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:52.240 maybe he wasn't as smart, but he I mean, reading 69 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:55.000 your book, he got through so many things. So maybe 70 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:58.000 for people who haven't heard the name Otters Kristini, who 71 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:00.240 is it? What's his background? And how did did he 72 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:01.960 become involved in World War Two? 73 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:06.000 All right? Well up to the only part of nineteen 74 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:10.120 forty three, you might say it was a study in 75 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:12.800 failure in a way. He was born in nineteen hundred 76 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:16.959 and eight in Vienna in the sort of what you 77 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:20.839 might call the crepuscular radiance of a fading empire fifty 78 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:25.000 four million people, to middle class parents. His father was 79 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.959 a successful master builder who'd also been fought in the 80 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:32.519 Versipal War, or at least he was in the army reserve, 81 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:36.639 and his mother also came from a military family. The 82 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:41.160 Scotsendy name, in fact, comes from something like Skotsin, which 83 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.199 is a place in Pomerania in Prussia. In fact, that 84 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.800 center is back. So they had eventually settled in Austria, 85 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:54.120 but they were established folk. He had an elder brother 86 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.879 who was eight years older him, born in nineteen hundred, Alfred, 87 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:05.920 who was an engineer, and his father was, like Scott Sney, 88 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:10.600 fascinated about technology. But we'll come to that in a 89 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.399 little while. This sort of fairly idyllic middle class life 90 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.759 was shattered very soon by the First World War. Austria 91 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:24.399 Hungary soon well not soon, but it did collapse within 92 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:27.839 three or four years. The Empire imploded on itself, and 93 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.639 what was left after nineteen nineteen the Treaty of Sancho 94 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.120 Man which is appended to the Treaty of Versai, imposed 95 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:40.160 on the beaten Central Powers by the Allies, the Western Allies, 96 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.720 was a very truncated country with lots of unemployed middle 97 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:49.079 class folk, industries that didn't work. Either the factories from 98 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:52.839 on the Austrian side or the raw materials on the side. 99 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:56.079 Would have been a free trade area was now anything but. 100 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:00.680 And the Scott Seianney family together in my middle class 101 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:03.399 Austrians at a time, found it very very hard In fact, 102 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:06.319 as a quote somewhere in one of the books about 103 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:12.360 Scott Senni, he said that he didn't taste butter until 104 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.199 about nineteen twenty three. It was that bad. And you 105 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.399 know we've heard all the proverbial stories about wheelbarrows in 106 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:22.720 the row in nineteen twenty three when the French army 107 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:26.439 occupied the West Bank of Germany. Well, it's pretty much 108 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.240 the same in Hungary. You know what would have bought 109 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.680 a small house in nineteen thirteen, nineteen fourteen, would just 110 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:34.879 about buy a postage stamp in nineteen twenty three. 111 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:37.920 It was that bad, right, So he had grown up 112 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:40.720 kind of in penury. He had said, his dad told him, 113 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:42.360 you know this is actually might be good for you 114 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:45.399 to grow that way. So they're very My sense was 115 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:49.319 the family was really concerned about their financial status, and 116 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.120 so was he. So he's trying to make a living. 117 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:55.160 Leggy started you said, he started a business doing gutters 118 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:58.480 or something up until the war started. So how did 119 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:01.000 he get in what? How did he get involved? I 120 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:05.120 mean as an Austrian, right, So how did he get 121 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:09.680 involved in the whole Third Reich War effort? Right? 122 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.560 Is quite a jump. He wasn't a political young man, 123 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:16.959 but he was a sports to his father clearly had 124 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:19.360 some resources he kept back because he was able to 125 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:26.079 send him to university where he studied engineering. But what 126 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:28.399 he actually did with most of his time, although he 127 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.240 did pass his exams eventually, it was well. He was 128 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:34.800 a massive young man. He was about six foot four, 129 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.199 very very athletic, as he can see from the photographs 130 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.240 of him, and what he mostly spent his time doing 131 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.360 was drinking and sword play. And what I mean by 132 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.319 sword play is there was a very established institution. It 133 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:53.319 wasn't unusual in Austrian or German universities of the time 134 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:59.959 of these what you might call very mannered combat jewel 135 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.600 with sabers. They were called schlaga the sword, and the 136 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.759 concept was called mensure. It originated in the post and 137 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:12.879 Paneeronic War period and it was a sort of a 138 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:16.600 ritual or rite of passage of certain not everyone in 139 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.279 university did it, but certain matcho young men. And the 140 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:23.160 idea with this, and it's important for later on here, 141 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.399 I think the idea of this was to show your 142 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:30.800 unflinching bravery, because although the rest of your body was protected, 143 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:34.200 your face wasn't. And almost anyone who was anyone with 144 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:36.960 one of these swords had the scars to prove it. 145 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.000 And also Scott say he was particularly well. He was 146 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.080 insanely brave, as will become apparent in various episodes, but 147 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.279 he certainly showed it. At university he fought an unusual 148 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.480 Most of most students might have fought I don't know 149 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:53.679 three or four, any how long their nerve held, but 150 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:57.679 he fought I think it was fourteen of these bouts 151 00:08:57.879 --> 00:09:01.399 over three years or so. And in nineteen twenty eight, 152 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:06.799 after you've been at the Vienna Technical University for two years, 153 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.639 he got unlucky and he was sliced down the left 154 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:14.399 side of his face all the way to the jaw, 155 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:17.720 which is how he got one of his nicknames among 156 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:19.840 the Americans. Anyway of scarface. 157 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:21.879 This was. 158 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.879 This was sealed up without any anesthetic. It was just 159 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:25.960 done with Carl. 160 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:29.440 Bollock, right. They just stitching up right there, get. 161 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.759 Some yeah, and you went home, and then you came 162 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:34.320 back from if you were him, you came back for 163 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:35.320 another one. 164 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:38.360 For four And there is a picture of him online. 165 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:39.960 You can see it with the cut on his face 166 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:42.080 and they're wearing kind of like a guard for the neck. 167 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:44.679 A metal guard. It looked very rough, but yeah, but 168 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.559 it shows kind of his sensibility of being in a 169 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:49.919 man's club. You're right, and it lays that groundwork with 170 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:54.120 fearlessness and kind of bravado that he would. 171 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:57.440 Have a chismo man. Yeah, with the athleticism to prove 172 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:01.679 his point. But he liked to say, like on even 173 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:04.440 though he was kind of a political before he went 174 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:08.639 to university, that the saber play well. He taught in 175 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:11.519 what he called the knowledge of pain, how to take 176 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:13.440 it as well as give it. But he was also 177 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:17.639 quite keen on this idea, almost chivaler, chivalrous idea that 178 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:19.799 when you went for the enemy, you went straight for 179 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:23.240 the head. You didn't waste time with the body, decapitate 180 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:28.399 your enemy. And this was one small idea I think 181 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:33.320 behind his decapitation missions later on when he was doing 182 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.519 military service. So it was something that the rite of 183 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:40.399 passage he has, but something that left a lasting impression 184 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:41.000 on him. 185 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:43.600 Right, So he's part of these mensical He also likes 186 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.039 the speed race. I think he was involved in kind 187 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:49.639 of automobile racing too, so you kind of have that daring. 188 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:52.759 And then how did he get involved in war effort. 189 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:55.519 Okay, well, this is where we come to the politics. 190 00:10:55.639 --> 00:11:02.120 These student clubs, dueling clubs were in our very right 191 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:05.600 wing anyway, and it become more so with the disgruntlement 192 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:08.759 after the First World War. With Austria as a rump state, 193 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:11.799 it seemed to be going nowhere. It's in the hands 194 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:17.840 of coalitions who couldn't rule the country properly, and the army, 195 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:20.399 which was very small, had to rely on a large 196 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:25.039 number of paramilitaries. The most famous parliamentary organization in the 197 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:29.360 nineteen twenties was the heimspheare the Home Force, really, that's 198 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:33.279 what it meant, and these students were affiliated to that 199 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:36.559 so in their spare time they could go out beating 200 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:39.799 up gangs of communists. There was There was virtual civil 201 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:43.240 war in Austria in nineteen twenty seven nineteen twenty eight, 202 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:53.399 but a pattern began to develop and Scotseny moved towards 203 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:56.039 the Nazi Party. Was originally part of the Heims Fair, 204 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:58.600 which yes was right wing, but it wasn't affiliated to 205 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:04.919 the Nazis. In Germany in the early nineteen thirties, when 206 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:09.759 the Heimsphair leader made a fatal political mistake, he decided 207 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:14.679 to join government and he dropped the essential stipulation for 208 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.559 a lot of these paramilitary students you like, of what 209 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:20.960 was called Anschluss. That meant there was a very technical 210 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:27.080 term which meant simply that Austria would be joined with Germany. 211 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:29.320 There's a great deal. I think this is quite an 212 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:34.360 important point on why so many young Nazis felt justified 213 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:36.679 in what they did in the early days. Anyway, there 214 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:39.200 was a great deal of resentment after the Treaty of 215 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:43.600 Versailles had imposed what was seen as a very skewed 216 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:47.840 settlement on Europe. I mean, it talked about self determination, 217 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:50.799 meaning that you know, people's of one language and one 218 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:53.639 culture should fit together, but it seemed to be skewed 219 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:59.120 so that Germans never won aut That was why Austria 220 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.879 was so small, Hungary was so small because they were 221 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:06.279 the beaten powers. The only way it became increasingly obvious 222 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:10.279 that Austria had any kind of future was to join 223 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:14.360 up with Germany again, and Adolf Hitler from certainly nineteen 224 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:17.080 thirty onwards seen to be the future for a lot 225 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:21.120 of these people. And then the Nazi party itself, where 226 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:26.720 the Heinswheer had put aside Angelus as a policy and 227 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.039 certainly the Austrian government didn't believe in it. The Nazi 228 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:34.480 Party adhered to it very fiercely, but it was banned. 229 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:39.720 It was banned after essentially it assassinated Dolphus, the Austrian Chancellor, 230 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:43.840 and so it was banned from nineteen thirty four onwards. Now, 231 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:47.919 by that time, the nineteen thirty two Scott Sainy had 232 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:51.679 joined the Nazi Party. He thought it was dynamic, it 233 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:55.320 had lots of easy solutions that appealed to him, and 234 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:59.679 in nineteen thirty four he joined the ss the elite 235 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.840 Nazi organization. I should say something here about what the 236 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:06.440 SSS meant in those days. It was a kind of 237 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:13.600 It was conceived by Himmler and Heydrich I Heydrich the 238 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.120 in the late nineteen twenties early thirties as a sort 239 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:19.639 of prietorian guard around Hitler and his Garlighters. But it 240 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.679 was a lot more, and there was a sort of 241 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:30.039 separate organization in Austria which it was essentially a middle 242 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:38.879 class intelligence police organization, intelligence gathering. So it would be 243 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:43.080 very much smaller than say the typical well, it was 244 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.480 certainly smaller Nazi Party membership and much much smaller than 245 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:53.519 the Nazi Party storm Troopers, the Essay or brown Shirt. Proverbally, 246 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:57.840 the SS were called the black Shirt, which was actually 247 00:14:57.879 --> 00:14:59.919 only true during the nineteen thirties. They changed the UNI 248 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:03.519 from later, but at the time he's a distinction. That's 249 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:08.679 what happened. So Scott Sonny joined this elite organization and 250 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:12.720 in it nearing the top, and he was top dog. 251 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:16.879 After nineteen thirty six was someone called Ernst Carton Brunner, 252 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:19.879 a real brute. I mean he was sort of six 253 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:24.399 foot seven, even taller than Scott Seeney, even bigger, granite 254 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.000 faced colossus and scars. 255 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:30.240 And they're all from Austria. 256 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:36.360 So Hitler, yes, yeah, I haven't really mentioned another thing 257 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:41.399 that's from Austria. Was unusual for a lot of Nazism. 258 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.240 We might meet in this conversation. He was actually a 259 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.879 lawyer by tradition is his parent his father was a lawyer, 260 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:51.480 and I think his father's father. But he he'd actually 261 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:55.639 met Scott Senny socially. I think they knew each other. 262 00:15:55.879 --> 00:15:59.759 They probably met because there are different universities and they 263 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:04.320 were involved in these student duels. But Scott Senny was 264 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:08.320 certainly he didn't he liked to conceal this later because 265 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:12.519 after all, Anst. Carlton Burner became the head of the 266 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:17.480 Nazi security apparatus, the RSHA eventually from nineteen forty three onwards, 267 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:20.200 and he was a war criminal, absolutely no doubt about that. 268 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.000 And Scott Senne liked to see himself as a sort 269 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:27.039 of clean a political soldier that he might differ about that. 270 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:30.480 So this idea of this relationship with Colton Berner his 271 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:34.799 memoirs is very suppressed. It is mentioned. He doesn't completely 272 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:36.519 show that away from it, but you don't get the 273 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:37.879 impression they were very close. 274 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:41.559 I mean that all kind of distance after the war, 275 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:43.919 they tried to distance himself from the bad guys. But 276 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.960 there's a picture I've seen a video of Hitler with 277 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:51.120 the two huge guys, Calton Berner and Skorzenny walking in tandem. 278 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:52.919 I don't know where it was from or what year 279 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.759 it was, but it's really remarkable to see all those 280 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.159 three guys together considering what happened during World War Two. 281 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.320 Yeah, well, the magic moment for Scott Senny where he 282 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:07.680 becomes a really commissied, useful pair of hands to the 283 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.759 Nazis is nineteen thirty eight and the Angelus operation where 284 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.279 Hitler essentially a stage is a coupditar and overthrows the 285 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.920 Austrian state, I mean Scott Senny. At that point, he's 286 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.039 gone through university, he's got a degree. It doesn't add 287 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.039 up to very much because there aren't many jobs. So 288 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:29.680 he becomes a mechanic in a depot. Not many people 289 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.960 have cars at that time, so it's a bit more 290 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:34.880 prestigious than it is today perhaps, but nevertheless, he then 291 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.920 graduates to a scaffolding a building company actually, but it 292 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:46.119 specializes in scaffolding, and he's a sharp practitioner because he 293 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:52.480 marries the boss's daughter, who's called Gretel Schreiber, and gets 294 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:55.039 a share, eventually a major share in the business, and 295 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:57.759 he continues in some way to be associated with it 296 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.079 until nineteen forty five, and which we say force measure 297 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:01.640 took over. 298 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:04.079 But he. 299 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.880 Divorces this young woman who was I think only about 300 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:13.359 nineteen or twenty when he married her. And after after 301 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.839 three years, and he marries someone else, an aspiring actress 302 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.519 called Emmy Lindhart, and we may hear her of her. 303 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:22.920 You know. 304 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:28.160 Soon enough he's in the building trade, but in his 305 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.079 spare time, what he's doing is he's participating in something 306 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:36.039 called the Deutsche's Tunable, which is a gym club. And 307 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:39.920 these were these gym clubs athletics clubs in Austria were 308 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.079 below the radar in the sense that they were perfectly legal, 309 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:47.680 but everyone knew they were actually operated by the Nazi Party. 310 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.880 So come the day when Hitler's threatening to invade Scott 311 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.039 saying he is, if you like, on the inner ring, 312 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:58.039 and he's part of the crowd, although he denies it 313 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:01.240 in his books, he's part of the crowd outside the 314 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.000 Chancellor's built a calling for him to resign, and you know, 315 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.920 it's a very threatening experience, a sort of ring of 316 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:10.839 He wasn't in uniform himself, I believe, but he was 317 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.279 wearing a ski coat. But there are plenty of black 318 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:18.319 shirts and brown shirts around, and he plays this cameo 319 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.680 role which points the way to the future. He's the 320 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:25.319 chancellor at around about midnight only I think it was 321 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:29.839 the thirteenth of March nineteen thirty eight. He finally buckles 322 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:33.119 to the pressure and he resigns. Carlton Brunners in there 323 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.920 because he's unofficially head of the SS and moment he's 324 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.400 part of the investment of the chancellory. But there's a 325 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:46.759 problem because the president, who's called Miklass, refuses to give in. 326 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.000 And this could be very embarrassing for Hitler. You know, 327 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.440 it's a half cocked coup d'etar. He doesn't really want 328 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:55.200 to have to actually use the tanks, so somebled outside, 329 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.319 the armored vehicles and so on. He wants it to 330 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:01.400 be a smooth, seemingly civilian affair where the the chancellor 331 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:03.200 has just given up, the presidents given up when the 332 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.400 Hitler takes over. So what happens is that we're not 333 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:09.759 quite sure who gave the order, but I think indirectly 334 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:13.400 Colton Brunner himself told Scott SENNI because he happened to 335 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.160 be around, and he happened to have access because as 336 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:20.039 you said earlier, he was very much into motorsport, which 337 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:23.680 was another Nazi sponsored business. He had access to a 338 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:26.359 car and a few of his in a few of 339 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:32.279 his mates raced to the residency of the of the 340 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:37.000 of the President and effectively burst in. And now the 341 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.599 way he tells it, he was there as a mediator 342 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:42.480 because he was worried that the guy would get murdered, 343 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:44.759 which would not be a good look for Hitler or 344 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:46.799 anyone else for that matter, with so here with the Nazi. 345 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.079 But they wanted him to meet class, to leave peaceably. 346 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.960 But what actually happened was he went in there. Meeklas 347 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:55.920 said later that actually he felt fear for his life, 348 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.119 and so did his wife, because Scott Sending actually grabbed 349 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.599 him as if to arrest him, and Miklas had a 350 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:07.240 presidential guard read by the led by. Someone got left 351 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:10.000 hand a bear sack who testified much the same thing 352 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.559 that in fact Scott sayn he was much more aggressive 353 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:18.200 than he portrayed himself. But nevertheless the thing ended peaceably, 354 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:21.359 and Micholas could see the way things were going there 355 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.400 was no way out, so he gave in. And I 356 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:29.160 think somewhere in there you know Scott sat had done it. 357 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.200 He wasn't armed. He himself wasn't armed, though he'd had, 358 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.079 you know, soldiers rifles pointed out him as he came 359 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.720 up the stairs to arrest the president. The overall tape 360 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:41.319 from it, as far as the leading Nazis were concerned, 361 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.440 Carlton Brenner in particular, was he'd mission accomplished, He'd been 362 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:47.920 a useful pair of hands, and that was stored for 363 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.160 later footnote in history. But you can begin to see 364 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:55.000 the style, you know, insanely brave, dashes up the stairs, 365 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:59.000 not armed. He's so self confident that he'll somehow sort 366 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:06.039 the situation out, and he does. He does. I lost 367 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:06.400 your sound. 368 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.839 Let me unmute, sir. You state that in your book, like, 369 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:12.359 it's really interesting that this is the groundwork for future 370 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:15.039 things that he's involved in, being at the center of 371 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:19.359 a thing, kind of bluffing his way into or just 372 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:23.599 manhandling it through sheer like moral authority or something like that, 373 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:27.680 where shots aren't viral anyway. Yeah, well, I mean, and 374 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:29.119 I think that pulls it up. So you see that 375 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:32.799 groundwork leading into World War Two, where so this is 376 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.039 like the first of many. I mean, Skorzeny's a remarkable 377 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.960 he's almost like a Zelig or something where he's at 378 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:43.559 pivotal events in World War two, like an observer like it, 379 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:48.640 just a remarkable historical figure. So what happens after the antelists? 380 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:54.480 Okay, so effectively he gets married to Emmy Lynnhat and 381 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:57.759 he has a one child, daughter of another. Very day 382 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.880 she's born more or less than thirty nineteen, he's called up. 383 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:05.160 He's he's tried to join the you know, you can imagine, 384 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:08.880 given his political inclinations, he's very keen to fight for 385 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:11.720 his country, for Adolf Hitler and so on. He tries 386 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:14.480 to join the luft Father because this is the romantic 387 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.799 art Service. It is full of new, you know, leading 388 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:23.440 edge technology, and most of those involved where they've only 389 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:25.799 learned to fly, they're very young. They've only learned to 390 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:30.119 fly the in the recent past. There usually because they're younger, 391 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:34.240 more ardent Nazis than those in the army. We've been 392 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.960 a better brunt of the war, of course. But he's 393 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:40.319 chucked out in effect. I mean, he's he must have 394 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:43.039 known when he joined tried to join the loof Father, 395 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.279 who he was thirty one, he was too old for it, 396 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.960 and he was too big to fit in the cockpit 397 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:50.079 of an Emmy one O nine. Which is this is 398 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.000 he here? You know, going back, this goes back a 399 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.279 bit to the Mensia business. Here's Scott Sayny, the sort 400 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.079 of lone gladiator type, and he loved the idea of 401 00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:00.680