Speaker 1: We cross paths with many people throughout our day. Generally,
Speaker 1: when you meet a stranger at the bus stop, it's
Speaker 1: not a memorable experience. But for the encounter of Fred
Speaker 1: and Rose, that was not the case. These two meeting
Speaker 1: ended in at least a dozen horrific and sexually motivated killings.
Speaker 1: You could say if these two didn't cross pass, the
Speaker 1: world would be a better place.
Speaker 2: I'm Nicole, I'm Ben, and this is Wicked and Grim,
Speaker 2: a true crime podcast. Morning podcast listeners just question that much.
Speaker 2: Do you got a drink? Oh? You started again? Fuck?
Speaker 2: I did? We don't have high. I don't even know
Speaker 2: what's going on for you for a fucking loop.
Speaker 1: Because I didn't hear you clicked the button and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it's like I saw the time
Speaker 1: rolling and I.
Speaker 2: Was like, oh my gosh, I'm flustered.
Speaker 1: Like ah, it's almost like the curtain came open and
Speaker 1: I wasn't fucking.
Speaker 2: Ready, clearly because you're just rambling right now. Welcome. How's
Speaker 2: it going everyone. We are having a fantastic day today.
Speaker 2: We are as we record this, we got some news
Speaker 2: we do.
Speaker 1: We have some very exciting news, and we don't have
Speaker 1: a to Chink because Ben did that over watch to Chink.
Speaker 2: To Chink, to Chink an opening of a can to Chink,
Speaker 2: same thing. Get a shirt the Sad to.
Speaker 1: Chink because Ben opened it over onres We did pre show.
Speaker 2: We did. But what was your big announcement? I quit?
Speaker 2: You quit your job, the job, not the podcast. Oh
Speaker 2: my god, I wonder I people were just like, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: not the podcast. Today I put in my official resignation
Speaker 2: from my job. From here, I am going full time
Speaker 2: into video and media creation, and by media creation that
Speaker 2: also encompasses podcasting. So we've got a lot coming down
Speaker 2: the pipe for you, guys. I'm super nervous. I'm sure
Speaker 2: Nicole's super nervous as well.
Speaker 1: Quite as much as you, because I have been. I
Speaker 1: kind of mentioned to the full time of working for
Speaker 1: myself already, and I know it can work.
Speaker 2: So touche. Yeah. Well, I've worked at the same company
Speaker 2: for over a decade and in the same industry for
Speaker 2: like over sixteen years. Yeah, so it's a big day
Speaker 2: for you. It's a big deal, super scary. But we
Speaker 2: have five weeks notice that I gave. The nice thing
Speaker 2: is I have that luxury of giving lots of notice
Speaker 2: to my employer, who's been quite kind to me throughout
Speaker 2: this whole process. So I have that luxury of delivering
Speaker 2: that to them as I transition on my own time
Speaker 2: into this new job, and it'll be working for myself.
Speaker 1: But so the cool thing is will well, Ben, we'll
Speaker 1: have more time to put towards this podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was awesome. A big thing is things like
Speaker 2: social media and Patreon as well, because we feel like
Speaker 2: we could be doing a lot better for Patreon, especially
Speaker 2: when it comes to like answering a little bit sooner
Speaker 2: and stuff.
Speaker 1: Well, and our comments on Instagram, it just sometimes is
Speaker 1: a bit overwhelming.
Speaker 2: Facebook, Instagram, all those messages and comments we get a lot.
Speaker 1: We used to be really good and on top of them,
Speaker 1: but lately it's been a little bit harder to.
Speaker 2: Keep on top of them. Well, we get way more
Speaker 2: than we used to, so that doesn't help. But yeah,
Speaker 2: because of you guys supporting this show, you have given
Speaker 2: us the proof of concept. I couldn't figure out that
Speaker 2: word earlier. You've given us the proof of concept to
Speaker 2: show that we can go full time with things like
Speaker 2: this podcast. So that's where I come in, and I'm
Speaker 2: going full time with it. So thank you so much
Speaker 2: for your support. It means the absolute world. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: today is thanks to all of you guys out there,
Speaker 2: so thank you. It's very exciting day. Yes, it's awesome,
Speaker 2: and I'm super fucking nervous, super nervous. It's gonna be good.
Speaker 2: I'm not take risks. I don't take no.
Speaker 1: Ben's not a very big risk ticker at all. Actually,
Speaker 1: so the fact that we've live in a tiny home
Speaker 1: sometimes amazes me that you were like.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, let's do it. Well, anytime I take risks,
Speaker 2: I usually have a safety net, right, and it's the
Speaker 2: tiny home. There's always the backup of oh, you sell
Speaker 2: it and you go buy something else or rent or whatever.
Speaker 2: You lose a little bit of money, sure, whatever, and
Speaker 2: you just move on. Yeah with this, what if this
Speaker 2: doesn't work out? Well, then you go back and get
Speaker 2: another job. Yeah, but potentially pay wise, hour wise, where
Speaker 2: how long will that take? There's no safety net, it's
Speaker 2: just more questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then there's questions sometimes if you don't take
Speaker 1: that leap as well.
Speaker 2: That's true, and that was one of the big things
Speaker 2: that really pushed It's like, well, well I regret it
Speaker 2: one day right now, We're in the position to be
Speaker 2: able to do it. So do it, yolo, just do it.
Speaker 1: Just Nike is now a sponsor of this podcast.
Speaker 2: Wish she's kidding, Nike, reach out, we're calling you.
Speaker 1: On a very side note, Ben is getting a haircut
Speaker 1: on a SAT. Saturday. So for any of you that
Speaker 1: I can't remember what episode, Ben and I had a
Speaker 1: bet that he would not grow a man bun, but
Speaker 1: he was in the process of growing a man bun.
Speaker 2: Nicole caved. I caved. I just had to. She's telling
Speaker 2: me to cut it. I would grow it. But one
Speaker 2: of the stipulations was if she told me to cut it,
Speaker 2: I will, But that just means I win.
Speaker 1: No one needs to see that shit. So yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: we're putting a stop to it.
Speaker 2: You're not wrong. So I'm gonna get a haircut and
Speaker 2: I'm not going to look like a sloppy joke. You
Speaker 2: should at least maybe post what you have going on.
Speaker 2: Oh I will, I'll post that over it. I'll post
Speaker 2: it before and after my haircut. How's that. There you go,
Speaker 2: so you can see the difference. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I think the last the last order
Speaker 1: of business here is to thank our patrons.
Speaker 2: Right, love, patrons, I had to open that up in
Speaker 2: my phone here because you sent it to me. I
Speaker 2: sure did. That's that's one of Nicole's jobs, is she
Speaker 2: sends me to patrons the list. She checked tracks where
Speaker 2: we were last time, and we.
Speaker 1: Thanked because Ben's is the names because he just is
Speaker 1: better at pronouncing ship.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we delegate jobs, and Nicole's doing her fantastic job,
Speaker 2: and now it's time for me to do mine. Do
Speaker 2: it sandcastic as well? All right, maybe I should should
Speaker 2: I put on like a radio announcer voice? What kind
Speaker 2: of voice? Should I do it in? Like a radio
Speaker 2: like an NHL game, like like a screaming fad like?
Speaker 1: No, like you were like a broadcaster like, ladies and gentlemen,
Speaker 1: Is that a broadcaster?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean kind of, I guess, yeah, a broadcasting voice. Whatever, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'll do some sort of broadcasting voice. All right, ladies
Speaker 2: and gentlemen. So we have several individuals to thank over
Speaker 2: on our patreons. Starting we have Shay, then moving on,
Speaker 2: we have Yukio Wolf, Pilo, Katie Hemphil, Beth Monroe, and
Speaker 2: Penny Roberts. Thank you so much to all you out
Speaker 2: there joining our Patreon supports us in a way you
Speaker 2: can't even imagine. So thank you so much. We really
Speaker 2: appreciate you. And uh now, so that we got that
Speaker 2: list out of the way, we're gonna move on here
Speaker 2: and we're gonna play some wicked and Grim coming up
Speaker 2: now on ninety four point eight the True Crime podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I feel like that was that.
Speaker 1: That didn't It was good, but it didn't sound quite
Speaker 1: as genuine, So thank you to those patrons of It
Speaker 1: didn't feel as genuine, but it was just fun. So
Speaker 1: I'm just saying thank you again in a normal voices.
Speaker 2: You guys are awesome. Radio is very quick paid.
Speaker 1: It almost sounds like it's like auction, like an auction.
Speaker 2: Not mere fast for allue. But I will go through
Speaker 2: it proper this time. So we have Shay, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: you don't have ki oh Wolf, Okay, Kalia, Pilo, Katie Hemphil,
Speaker 2: Beth Monroe, Penny Roberts.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I did want to go over again because it was
Speaker 2: not sincere doing it in a radio.
Speaker 1: No, it didn't like it came across as genuine, and
Speaker 1: we're that's what we're all about here, is being as
Speaker 1: as genuine as we can be.
Speaker 2: So she told me to do the announcement. I know,
Speaker 2: you know what. We did it, we explored it. It failed.
Speaker 2: We're moving on, fucking move on, all right, We're I'm.
Speaker 1: Gonna be nice as fuck. This is part one. This
Speaker 1: is a part one, episode Part one, part one, And
Speaker 1: you know what, I feel like, I stopped it.
Speaker 2: You know what, I stopped in an asshole? Part Yeah
Speaker 2: I did, But did you really?
Speaker 1: Kind of?
Speaker 2: You had to, you, some bitch.
Speaker 1: But anyway, we're covering Fred and Rose West today.
Speaker 2: Bell damped. It's about damp time. This is a doozy.
Speaker 2: So it's a doozy of a case.
Speaker 1: And we had a requested to us many times by
Speaker 1: many people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been one that we've had requested for like
Speaker 2: over a year.
Speaker 1: And I was like it was on my list, but
Speaker 1: I didn't quite realize how large it was.
Speaker 2: So it's pretty large. It's kind of consumed my life,
Speaker 2: That's what she said.
Speaker 1: So this is, uh this this should we should we go?
Speaker 1: Goodness gracious, someone needs to control him over there.
Speaker 2: He's in like a good mood. I'm in one hell
Speaker 2: of a good mood. Yeah, I'm gonna sit back and
Speaker 2: drink my drink. How's that you need something to keep
Speaker 2: you busy? Over there? I do. I'm I'm over the
Speaker 2: moon right now. So I'm sorry. If I seem like
Speaker 2: a lot today, that's solely on me. Nicole is doing
Speaker 2: a fantastic job.
Speaker 1: I am just I just feel like everyone out there
Speaker 1: send I should just like send help.
Speaker 2: I'll send some sort of.
Speaker 1: Like like I'll have to do a secret message that
Speaker 1: I need help.
Speaker 2: Wow, just get fucking morse code by blinking on an
Speaker 2: Instagram reel or some shit. I'm just kidding. It's all good. No,
Speaker 2: it's a good day. It's a good day. Okay, ready,
Speaker 2: I mean not really, but let's fucking do I don't
Speaker 2: know if I'll be able to sit still. I can't
Speaker 2: control my excitement. No, I'm ready, let's do it, okay. So.
Speaker 1: Frederick Walter Stephen West, otherwise known as Fred West, is
Speaker 1: the person a lot of the story centers around. He
Speaker 1: was born on September twenty ninth, nineteen Ford to one
Speaker 1: Wow way back then in much Markele, which is a
Speaker 1: village in England, to parents Walter Stephen West and Daisy
Speaker 1: Hannah Hill. His father was a known disciplinary discipline.
Speaker 2: Lah discipline in an area a disciplinary disciplinary.
Speaker 1: I do want to say that sometimes my tongue just
Speaker 1: like gets tied up all over the place. And his
Speaker 1: mother was incredibly overprotective, especially over Fred, who was known
Speaker 1: to be her favorite.
Speaker 2: Oh favoritism of the children.
Speaker 1: See, I think lots of times parents do maybe have
Speaker 1: a favorite, but then that's not really something they like vocalize.
Speaker 1: But it was known that Fred was the favorite, and
Speaker 1: I think he was the favorite because he was. They
Speaker 1: had had a child previously that unfortunately passed away, like
Speaker 1: not very long after she gave birth to the baby,
Speaker 1: and so Fred was like the first kid that survived,
Speaker 1: and so they probably just had a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: hope and stuff for him.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I see that. But also I'm I mean
Speaker 2: to be fair, to be fair, to be fair. I'm
Speaker 2: not a parent, so I could be speaking out a
Speaker 2: context or ignorance here, but I think that it's completely
Speaker 2: reasonable for a parent to have a favorite child. It
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you love any one child more than
Speaker 2: the other. It just means that you might get along
Speaker 2: with them better, one of the children better, you can
Speaker 2: relate to them better, or they don't fucking scream in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night like the other one does, like.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, And it's probably different stages too,
Speaker 1: or exactly you kind of be like, oh, this kid
Speaker 1: is actually being really good right now and this one's
Speaker 1: not so.
Speaker 2: So I don't I don't think, and I mean, one
Speaker 2: of those kids could be more like you and the
Speaker 2: other one like your spouse, which might annoy you. Who knows.
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone should feel guilty if that is
Speaker 2: a case. I think that would be a completely normal thing.
Speaker 1: I just got like a vision of like if I
Speaker 1: had a kid and they were exactly like you, what
Speaker 1: my life would be like.
Speaker 2: It was a lot in that split second vision there
Speaker 2: your life flashed before your eyes.
Speaker 1: So basically, Fred and his mother were close close I understand.
Speaker 1: Some say Fred seemed like any other young boy growing up,
Speaker 1: his aunt eventually telling the press that he always or
Speaker 1: he has always been such a nice boy. One neighbor
Speaker 1: described him as a bit cheeky, a bit mouthy, but
Speaker 1: that was the way the kids were, so kind of
Speaker 1: like a normal description there from outsiders.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a little lippy, but whatever, the best of them.
Speaker 1: At school, he had a hard time getting on with
Speaker 1: the other kids. He also didn't do well in his classes.
Speaker 1: He was good with his hands, but he struggled with
Speaker 1: any academic work. By the time he left school, he
Speaker 1: was only fifteen and he was barely literate, which is
Speaker 1: kind of unfortunate.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean fifteen and was it nineteen forties.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, I think a lot of people probably they
Speaker 1: left school.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that's I think that's probably relatively normal.
Speaker 1: But still being that age and he was in school
Speaker 1: and he was still like kind of literate, so he
Speaker 1: really struggled, right, Yeah. His only job prospects were working
Speaker 1: as a farm hand, which is not necessarily a bad job.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: His social problems only grew worse as he became a
Speaker 1: young adult and started going to youth clubs with his
Speaker 1: younger brother John. After hearing his country accent, many at
Speaker 1: the social clubs pegged him for a country boy and
Speaker 1: either picked on him or just completely ignored him. The
Speaker 1: plan was to meet girls, and though Fred wasn't exactly
Speaker 1: a looker, he did have a bit of charm to him,
Speaker 1: and that seemed to work on susceptible and inexperienced young women.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, okay, But.
Speaker 1: His approach to women didn't exactly help him make many
Speaker 1: friends either. From the start, Fred seemed to view women
Speaker 1: in a different light than most people do. Asking for consent,
Speaker 1: for example, wasn't necessarily in his vocabulary.
Speaker 2: So he's your modern day douchebag alpha Chad. You're like
Speaker 2: looking off the king. I'm thinking he's like your modern
Speaker 2: day douche basically, No, because he doesn't really have much
Speaker 2: going for him either. Yeah either, do like these douchebag
Speaker 2: chad people. I don't know. I don't know, but he
Speaker 2: just like you wouldn't ask he's worse. I would say
Speaker 2: he's worse. He's worse, Okay, Okay.
Speaker 1: So he He later explained, in a claim that was
Speaker 1: denied by another of his brothers, that the way he
Speaker 1: was like this was because his mother had taught him
Speaker 1: and introduced him to sex when he was only twelve
Speaker 1: years old. So he's saying that she sexually abused him.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's what I thought. Horrible. It's one thing to
Speaker 2: like teach like the birds and the beast, yeah, but
Speaker 2: it's another to teach teach the birds and the beast. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he claimed this, but then he had and it's
Speaker 1: claimed in many many articles. But then he did have
Speaker 1: a brother later that denied this.
Speaker 2: Okay, but who knows. Maybe the brother wasn't even aware, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's very possible because the brother was younger than him,
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of family dynamic situations where one
Speaker 2: of the individuals is the subject of abuse where the
Speaker 2: others aren't.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He also said that he learned a lot about
Speaker 1: sex from seeing his father rape his sisters when they
Speaker 1: were living on the farm together.
Speaker 2: Oh snap, this guy's grown up all fucking kinds of great.
Speaker 1: Hey, I know so exactly how much of this is
Speaker 1: true and how much of it Fred was making up
Speaker 1: to justify either his own failures with women or his
Speaker 1: own terrible actions later is difficult to say, because after
Speaker 1: talking with him for only a few minutes, it didn't
Speaker 1: take many people long to figure out that Fred was
Speaker 1: a pathological liar, and he'd often embellish or completely make
Speaker 1: ups stories about himself just to make him look good.
Speaker 2: Cool.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like some shit would have gone
Speaker 1: down in that house, for sure, but who knows to
Speaker 1: what extent?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if someone is a pathological liar, they
Speaker 2: may not only be blowing things out of proportion, but
Speaker 2: making things up out of nowhere. Yeah, So it could
Speaker 2: be just a perfectly normal household and he's making these
Speaker 2: things up, or he could be blowing it out of proportion,
Speaker 2: or I mean, it could be completely true and he's
Speaker 2: just lying about other shit. Yeah, who's to say.
Speaker 1: I think I do have this in later. Hopefully I
Speaker 1: didn't take it out. Maybe I have it in later.
Speaker 1: Because there was also some reports too that he like
Speaker 1: experimented on the animals that they had too. Oh, and
Speaker 1: that was apparently learned from his father.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think that his father was setting a very
Speaker 1: good example for him or his mother really either way.
Speaker 1: So what we do know for sure is that Fred
Speaker 1: sustained two major head injuries, the first one occurring when
Speaker 1: he was only seventeen years old. He got into an
Speaker 1: on his motorcycle that left him with a broken arm
Speaker 1: and leg but also a fractured skull. Fred was unconscious
Speaker 1: for an entire week and you wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: walk without braces for several months afterwards when he did
Speaker 1: finally wake up, and some reports say that he did
Speaker 1: even have like a limp, so some remain residual effects
Speaker 1: residual symptoms.
Speaker 2: There you go.
Speaker 1: So the second one came only two years later, when
Speaker 1: a girl that he allegedly groped at a social club
Speaker 1: turned around and punched him. Which is he good for you?
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: If someone groped me, I would punch them in the
Speaker 1: face and I would feel fine with.
Speaker 2: Yes, violence is never okay, But neither his fucking sexual assault. No. No,
Speaker 2: I like, I was just like I would be okay
Speaker 2: with punching them in the face. Okay. I can't argue
Speaker 2: if someone's reaction is that, you have every right to
Speaker 2: react that way. Fucking rights. However, there's better ways to
Speaker 2: handle it, you know what I mean. There is fine.
Speaker 2: I can't blame you, but there are better ways, That's
Speaker 2: all I'm saying. If that's your reaction, fucking you know,
Speaker 2: but also try not to stoop to their level. Exactly.
Speaker 1: So, the two of them have been standing on a
Speaker 1: fire escape and the punch had sent Fred tumbling down
Speaker 1: the stairs until he finally stopped two floors down and
Speaker 1: hit his head.
Speaker 2: Oh shit.
Speaker 1: And as we know, head injuries can lead to massive
Speaker 1: changes and personalities at times. Right, yeah, So Fred's friends
Speaker 1: and family noted that after his stay in the hospital,
Speaker 1: his second stay, Fred became irrationally afraid of hospitals and
Speaker 1: prone to fits of intense rage.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's sorry I went away from
Speaker 2: the microm in it. I don't know if that's irrational
Speaker 2: to be afraid of hospitals after that.
Speaker 1: No. No, I mean I think a lot of people,
Speaker 1: even without being experienced, like you just it's a place
Speaker 1: you don't want to go. Yeah, right, and it's she
Speaker 1: when you've had two pretty probably traumatic events, like you're
Speaker 1: not feeling good towards that place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but who knows to what degree he was acting?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that doesn't quite explain what Fred had been
Speaker 1: doing before he received those head injuries, because it's not
Speaker 1: like after receiving them he all of a sudden turned
Speaker 1: into a douche canoe.
Speaker 2: He was a douche canoe before, gotcha. I'm just saying
Speaker 2: he's a douche canoe before. He's still a douche canoe. Now,
Speaker 2: he's just fucking douche canoe squared exactly squared. Douche canoe squared.
Speaker 1: Uh. So, oh goodness, Okay, I do have the So
Speaker 1: Fred openly admitted that since his mother had introduced him
Speaker 1: to sex. He'd read regularly engaged in what is it
Speaker 1: called beast reality right with the animals on the farm.
Speaker 1: But that wasn't all. In nineteen sixty one, Fred's thirteen
Speaker 1: year old sister Kitty, made a disturbing confession to their mother.
Speaker 1: Oh no, now, I'm going to just put a oh.
Speaker 2: A disclosure statement.
Speaker 1: Some reports said that it was not the sister but
Speaker 1: a close family friend, but a lot of the majority
Speaker 1: of the reports did say that it was the sister.
Speaker 1: So I just went with the sister. But there is
Speaker 1: the possibility that it wasn't the sister and it was
Speaker 1: a close friend. So Kitty said that Fred had been
Speaker 1: sexually abusing her for over half a year, and now
Speaker 1: she was pregnant with his child.
Speaker 2: Oh fuck. Really.
Speaker 1: Fred was arrested and openly admitted to abusing Kitty and
Speaker 1: many other girls, young girls, and he couldn't understand why
Speaker 1: he was being charged with anything, and when asked why
Speaker 1: he'd done what he'd done, he then asked the question
Speaker 1: to them, doesn't everyone do it?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: Okay, So, as we know Daisy, Fred's mother had a
Speaker 1: soft spot for Fred, and though disgusted with him, she
Speaker 1: agreed to testify in her son's defense, but she would
Speaker 1: never have to because in the end, Kitty ended up
Speaker 1: dropping or changing her mind and ended up refusing to testify,
Speaker 1: so the charges against her brother were dropped.
Speaker 2: Wow, that is one of the most disturbing things, doesn't everybody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's quite a statement. He like, it's very disturbing.
Speaker 2: That there, just shows what he was taught as Ah.
Speaker 1: I know a kid, Yeah, I've got a very just
Speaker 1: and what he goes about teaching.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got a very disturbing story that I'm going
Speaker 2: to share with you here. It's a story that I
Speaker 2: heard through a friend of a friend. Okay, So that
Speaker 2: individual was saying they were an RCNP officer up in
Speaker 2: like the Yukon way back when, like in the eighties
Speaker 2: or something like that, and there was a old man
Speaker 2: in like a hermit type individual in this cabin or whatever,
Speaker 2: and he would go and like rob people's backyards and
Speaker 2: stuff once in a while for little life like a
Speaker 2: bucket things like that, right, or rob some gardens and
Speaker 2: stuff for some food and things. Anyways, the RCMP eventually
Speaker 2: went to his cabin after a lot of reports of this,
Speaker 2: and when they got there, and this is a true story.
Speaker 2: By the way, they found him and a dog he
Speaker 2: had stolen, and that dog he was using for sexual endeavors.
Speaker 2: Oh god, Okay, the dog was in such rough shape
Speaker 2: it had to be put down. What they had there, like,
Speaker 2: and this is shit way up in the middle of
Speaker 2: nowhere in the Yukon in the eighties, like they didn't like,
Speaker 2: they put a bullet into the animal's head. Oh, the
Speaker 2: poor thing. And he said the same thing, like his
Speaker 2: dad taught him this. When you're lonely, you go find
Speaker 2: an animal, like this is what he was taught as
Speaker 2: a kid.
Speaker 1: I know. I mean, if I can see it happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you if that's what you're taught, that's.
Speaker 1: Literally because your parents can be so manipulatve not saying
Speaker 1: that people are like this, but there are a few
Speaker 1: people like this that you legitimately believe that that is
Speaker 1: happening in everybody's household.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're you're told this is normal. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: think of it in a so disturbing a rational aspect
Speaker 2: that we're I mean, we eat animals, we eat cows, pigs, right,
Speaker 2: the majority of the world does. So. Is it far
Speaker 2: fetched to say if we cut them up and consume
Speaker 2: them that if you are taught from a young age
Speaker 2: for over the course of your entire life that you
Speaker 2: can do other things, why would there be red flags
Speaker 2: if that's what you were taught is normal. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: could think that's their purpose there, right, So yeah, so
Speaker 2: it's it's wild. What's the shit you can be taught?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Okay, moving on. He's just disturbing. All
Speaker 1: of this is disturbing. Yeah, And I mean he probably,
Speaker 1: But the thing is, like, I've researched this case. I
Speaker 1: see the kind of person he is, and that doesn't
Speaker 1: everybody do it. I almost be like, well, is he legit?
Speaker 1: Is he being serious? But he probably is? Like at
Speaker 1: that point, I think he's or he's either a teenager
Speaker 1: or early twenties, so he could still be very much unbelieving.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he could also be lying too. Yeah, there is
Speaker 2: that possibility.
Speaker 1: So though his charges were never proven in court, most
Speaker 1: of the family, including his mother, actually did cut ties
Speaker 1: with Fred and he was kicked out of the family home.
Speaker 1: This didn't last outstandably, It didn't last too long though.
Speaker 1: His relationship with his siblings and most of his family,
Speaker 1: though it was never the same again. They eventually did
Speaker 1: become on speaking terms with both of his parents as well,
Speaker 1: by like the mid nineteen sixty two, So in September
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, Catherine Bernadette Costello also walked back into
Speaker 1: Fred's life. She'd been one of those women at the
Speaker 1: youth clubs who'd actually gotten along with Fred, and they'd
Speaker 1: even been a relationship for a good few months before
Speaker 1: she ended up having to move back to Scotland. So Catherine,
Speaker 1: or Rena as she'd liked to go by, apparently still
Speaker 1: thought highly of Fred because when she found herself in trouble,
Speaker 1: he was the first one that she went to. Okay,
Speaker 1: but I mean also like he's probably in a position
Speaker 1: to judge.
Speaker 2: Anyone, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So, Rena was pregnant and the father of her unborn
Speaker 1: child was of a darker race, the majority of reports
Speaker 1: saying he was from Western Asia. This had led to
Speaker 1: some difficulties between her and her family members, and it's
Speaker 1: difficult to say whether it was because her baby would
Speaker 1: be of mixed race or if she was having a
Speaker 1: childhood of wedlock. Okay, I think it's more so the latter,
Speaker 1: because it didn't seem like they had disclosed what the
Speaker 1: race of the baby would be until the baby was born.
Speaker 1: As we'll get into here, so Rena's unplanned pregnancy sent
Speaker 1: her back to England and back into Fred's arms. They
Speaker 1: were married only two months later, with Fred's brother John
Speaker 1: I believe that's the brother or the son right below
Speaker 1: Fred's age, allegedly being the only guest at the wedding,
Speaker 1: and before long they moved out to get Glasgow.
Speaker 2: The only guest at the wedding, Yes, a single person
Speaker 2: attended their wedding. Well, I think it was.
Speaker 1: It might have been like a friend as well too,
Speaker 1: but like the only family member. Oh, the only family member.
Speaker 2: I literally envisioned them of the altar at a fucking
Speaker 2: church and one person in the audience, like.
Speaker 1: Well, I know, I think I think it might have
Speaker 1: been like one or two, But also I don't know
Speaker 1: over there it could be different here, like you need
Speaker 1: two witnesses at least for signings. So so Fred found
Speaker 1: work as an ice cream truck driver, and when Charmaine
Speaker 1: was born in March the following year, to explain her
Speaker 1: mixed race, both Fred and Rena explained to anyone who
Speaker 1: was interested that Rena had had a miscarriage and that
Speaker 1: the two of them still wanted a child, so they
Speaker 1: decided to adopt Charmaine because they I kind of didn't
Speaker 1: really say that, but they had said that Fred.
Speaker 2: Was the father, gotcha right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: So in July the following year, the couple welcomed another daughter,
Speaker 1: Anna Marie, but things at the West family home were
Speaker 1: anything but happy. Rena struggled to deal with Fred's outbursts,
Speaker 1: and most of the time they were actually directed towards
Speaker 1: the girls. What initially could have looked like Fred being
Speaker 1: a supportive and loving husband by helping Rena raise a
Speaker 1: child that had essentially got her kicked out of her
Speaker 1: own home, only turned into a way for Fred to
Speaker 1: treat their marriage. However he wanted. Sorry, go ahead, you're
Speaker 1: just like, I don't like this guy.
Speaker 2: No, I don't. He's clearly going to go back to
Speaker 2: certain things that he was doing in his early age,
Speaker 2: acting in these fucking horrific douche canooe squared ways.
Speaker 1: He had numerous affairs, even allegedly fathering a child with
Speaker 1: another woman before Rena found out. Cool When she did, though,
Speaker 1: instead of leaving Fred or asking him to stop, Rena
Speaker 1: then started having affair of her own with a man
Speaker 1: named John.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I mean they're you really were thinking that
Speaker 2: consensual relationships can go many ways. Yeah, both partners are
Speaker 2: okay with you know, open relationships and stuff. I sure
Speaker 2: fucking go for it. But I mean if it's like, well,
Speaker 2: you're fucking cheating on me, so I'm gonna fucking cheat
Speaker 2: on you, and then you're both pissed off at each other,
Speaker 2: what the fuck does that solve? See?
Speaker 1: Bred was okay with him cheating, and he wasn't okay
Speaker 1: with Rena cheating.
Speaker 2: Of course he was. Anyone who's fucking the cheater is
Speaker 2: always okay with it. Yeah, they're never okay when they're
Speaker 2: the cheaty katy cheated, cheated chips. They're the cheetos, the
Speaker 2: Cheetos of the relationship world. No, no, they're the lays
Speaker 2: because a they're getting laid and bet, bet you can't
Speaker 2: have just one. Oh my word. Okay.
Speaker 1: So things got nasty though when Fred discovered that Rena
Speaker 1: and John were together. Oh my gosh, without skipping a beat, Fred,
Speaker 1: oh so he actually like found them, So without skipping
Speaker 1: a beat, Fred burst into the room and actually punched Rena.
Speaker 1: Seeing this, John then punched Fred, who then pulled a
Speaker 1: knife out and actually managed to catch John and the abdomen.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a very deep wound, and John kept fighting.
Speaker 1: He punched Fred a second time, and after that Fred
Speaker 1: backed out.
Speaker 2: Of the fight. Wow, so okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he only liked to really, He didn't seem like
Speaker 1: he really fought back much when it comes came to guys,
Speaker 1: but like women, he liked to control them, which is disturbing.
Speaker 2: Okay, interesting, Well, I mean there are guys out there
Speaker 2: like that who like to be dominant to the opposite
Speaker 2: sex or whatever. Yeah, but when it comes to confrontation
Speaker 2: with another man, they're not that. And I hate this term,
Speaker 2: but I'm going to use it here because it's a
Speaker 2: good example. But they're not that alpha type, you know,
Speaker 2: so they they are more submissive in that those scents,
Speaker 2: but they're like to beat the alpha when they can,
Speaker 2: so they will to women.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Fred continuing continued having his affairs, and Rena
Speaker 1: continued having her affair with John. But now that Fred
Speaker 1: knew where Rena was spending her time, he made sure
Speaker 1: she paid for it. He beat her, and whenever John
Speaker 1: found out about the beatings, he'd go over to the
Speaker 1: West Household and in return beat Fred.
Speaker 2: Fuck.
Speaker 1: John later said he couldn't tackle a man, but he
Speaker 1: wasn't so slow in attacking women.
Speaker 2: This is this isn't a love triangle. This is an
Speaker 2: abusive triangle, you know, like holy fuck? Yeah, yeah, Like
Speaker 2: because Fred's going to beat her, and in Lou, John's
Speaker 2: going to beat him, and in Lou He's going to
Speaker 2: beat her again because John came and beat him, and
Speaker 2: that's going to get a vicious psycle. Holy fuck. All right.
Speaker 1: So in November nineteen six, Fred was in hot water
Speaker 1: for an entirely different reason. He'd been involved in an
Speaker 1: accident with his ice cream van. The accident had left
Speaker 1: a young boy dead, and though Fred was cleared out
Speaker 1: of any wrongdoings, he didn't quite He didn't feel like
Speaker 1: he was safe where he was currently residing. And it
Speaker 1: was actually an accident, like I think that he backed
Speaker 1: into the boy or something, okay, and something I'd listened
Speaker 1: to It was like yeah, and accidents in those manner
Speaker 1: were quite frequent, common, and I was like, holy really
Speaker 1: that's common. I feel like if that happened nowadays, I
Speaker 1: would be shocked to read that.
Speaker 2: Well, we have fucking backup cameras and rearview mirrors stuff.
Speaker 2: Who knows if they had even the mirrors properly in
Speaker 2: the vehicle he was using, It's hard to say so.
Speaker 1: Thinking that some of the locals would take justice into
Speaker 1: their own hands, Fred moved the family to Gloucester. Rita
Speaker 1: didn't join him until February the following year, and when
Speaker 1: she did, she brought some.
Speaker 2: Guests with her.
Speaker 1: So Issa McNeil, a teenager who'd been there, nanny who
Speaker 1: was looking for a better life, and so was her
Speaker 1: sixteen year old friend and McFall is that.
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, I just made a loud noise in my
Speaker 2: mic I don't know if that'll even get picked up.
Speaker 1: Yeahs Issa had introduced Anne to the West while she
Speaker 1: was working for them, and when Anne's boyfriend had died
Speaker 1: in a workplace accident, they'd all become much closer. Issa
Speaker 1: and Anne followed Rena to Gloucester, thinking that a fresh
Speaker 1: start would be the thing that they needed to get
Speaker 1: their lives on track. Only they didn't quite realize what
Speaker 1: they were walking into. It didn't take long for Fred
Speaker 1: to start viewing all three women living in his house,
Speaker 1: two of them still only teenagers as his own property.
Speaker 2: Fucking course he did. God yeah, sorry, it pisses me
Speaker 2: off so much.
Speaker 1: This guy is going to piss you off big time.
Speaker 1: So he beat Rena and Issa and told Rena to
Speaker 1: start working as a sex worker so that they could
Speaker 1: make more money. He also started sexually abusing his stepdaughter Charmaine.
Speaker 2: Why didn't he go out and suck some dick's for
Speaker 2: extra cash? I don't know. He could have made that money.
Speaker 2: He could have fucking put those lips to good use, buddy,
Speaker 2: he could have.
Speaker 1: So desperate, Rena called John and begged him to get her,
Speaker 1: her two daughters, and Issa.
Speaker 2: Out of there.
Speaker 1: John immediately agreed and hatched a plan with Issa's boyfriend
Speaker 1: to drive down and pick all them up while Fred
Speaker 1: was out of the house. But Anne's name was missing
Speaker 1: from that list. Anne had fallen for Fred and he'd
Speaker 1: promised to marry her.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay.
Speaker 1: When she found out about the others attempting to leave,
Speaker 1: she told Fred everything.
Speaker 2: Which only pissed him off and he probably went on
Speaker 2: a fucking rampage. Yep, okay cool.
Speaker 1: So when the other six met at the meeting spot,
Speaker 1: Fred and Anne show up as well and told the
Speaker 1: others that she was going to stay with Fred, and
Speaker 1: Fred told them that Rena and Issa could leave, but
Speaker 1: Charmaine and Anna Marie the two kids, would be coming
Speaker 1: with him. John and Fred fought again, with Fred being
Speaker 1: hit several times, but he didn't let go of the girls,
Speaker 1: and the police were called to the scene. John, Issa,
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and Rena left and the girls stayed with Fred.
Speaker 2: Oh fuck, yeah, great, this is going to be fann fuckingtastic.
Speaker 1: Fred kept the girls and he warned Rena that he
Speaker 1: would kill her if he ever saw her again. But she,
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like you'd have to be a
Speaker 1: very also be somewhat of a strong individual to be
Speaker 1: with this Fred man. Yeah, and she ignored Fred's warnings,
Speaker 1: and she did make a point of visiting the daughters.
Speaker 2: And where the daughters save. Relatively speaking.
Speaker 1: This also created a lot of tension between Rena, Fred
Speaker 1: and Anne, which all blew up when Rena was arrested
Speaker 1: for stealing some of Van's things.
Speaker 2: Do you like how I just avoided your question? I did.
Speaker 1: The court case shone a light on the situation at
Speaker 1: Fred's home. But Fred, he was a manipulator. He knew
Speaker 1: how to lie. He told the court that things were
Speaker 1: going to calm down because Anne was moving back to Glasgow,
Speaker 1: and the court believed him and actually moved to a
Speaker 1: different caravan in the same caravan park that Fred and
Speaker 1: the girls were living, but that did mean that Rena
Speaker 1: could then stay in Fred's caravan whenever she visited the girls.
Speaker 1: Rena ended up splitting her time between Fred's caravan and Glasgow,
Speaker 1: but Anne was still sure that she and Fred had
Speaker 1: a future. By July nineteen sixty seven, Anne eighteen years old,
Speaker 1: was actually eight months pregnant with Fred's child Cool. She
Speaker 1: then disappeared. She was never reported as missing. Less than
Speaker 1: a month later, Rena was back at home, officially living
Speaker 1: with Fred again. Things seemed to approve at first, but
Speaker 1: only a year later Rena had left once again. This
Speaker 1: was the end of Fred and Rena as a couple,
Speaker 1: but Fred found love again two years later in the
Speaker 1: arms of Rosemary Lets or Rose.
Speaker 2: Here we fucking go. I was waiting for Rose to
Speaker 2: come into the story. Mm hmm, fucking Fred.
Speaker 1: So Rose had only just turned fifteen when she met
Speaker 1: Fred at the bus stop. They were waiting, Oh cool,
Speaker 1: and Fred was twenty eight.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's fucking fantastic. Wow. All right.
Speaker 1: Rose was initially unimpressed with Fred. Actually, she thought, so
Speaker 1: am I, oh so am I?
Speaker 2: Oh? What really was funny for me? You're good bruh.
Speaker 1: She thought that he looked and smelled like a homeless man.
Speaker 1: That was literally her thoughts. I think he was like
Speaker 1: a homeless man.
Speaker 2: Oh, I know I'm not going to like her here
Speaker 2: coming up, but I like her right now.
Speaker 1: But once she realized that he wasn't, and after he
Speaker 1: kept pursuing her, Rose started to like all the attention
Speaker 1: and the compliments that Fred kept giving her, which, you know,
Speaker 1: compliments are nice sometimes, Yeah, it was nothing compared to
Speaker 1: the attention he gave her after he found out that
Speaker 1: Rose was very sexually active. After that, Fred tried everything.
Speaker 1: He even told her that his wife had abandoned him
Speaker 1: and their two daughters, but he still had help for
Speaker 1: the future and wanted to have more children. Then he
Speaker 1: found out where Rose worked and had a woman go
Speaker 1: in with a gift from him, and then he walked
Speaker 1: in after to ask Rose out on a date. Rose
Speaker 1: had allegedly already refused him a couple of times, but
Speaker 1: the gift seemed to do the trick.
Speaker 2: And the two of them did eventually become a couple.
Speaker 2: D d dum du dun duh.
Speaker 1: Rose would spend a lot of time in his caravan,
Speaker 1: both to see him and to look after the girls.
Speaker 1: Her relationship with the girls was good at first, and
Speaker 1: she managed to actually convince Fred to start treating them
Speaker 1: better for a while, but that didn't last so long.
Speaker 1: Only weeks after they started dating, Rose had quit her
Speaker 1: job and was a full time nanny to Charmaine and
Speaker 1: Anna Marie. This went on with Rose's parents having no
Speaker 1: idea what was happening or that she had a boyfriend,
Speaker 1: like as far as they know, she was still working
Speaker 1: at her job. But that all changed several months later
Speaker 1: when they did eventually find out and both her parents
Speaker 1: disapproved of the relationship.
Speaker 2: That's a very nice way of putting it. They disapproved.
Speaker 1: They disapproved of Fred. Fred was very disapproval, disapproving. I
Speaker 1: don't even know what that means.
Speaker 2: He sucked. That sucked Fuck you Fred. Not not cool Fred, Eh,
Speaker 2: not cool Fred, No, it's fucking Fred. Fucking Fred.
Speaker 1: They were unsuccessful in stopping, so not knowing what else
Speaker 1: like stopping the relationship, so not knowing what else to do.
Speaker 1: They actually called social services to have Rose removed from
Speaker 1: her own home and put into a center for troubled
Speaker 1: youth or troubled teens. She was only allowed off of
Speaker 1: the premises on weekends and when she was supposed. When
Speaker 1: she was allowed off, she was supposed to go and
Speaker 1: visit her parents, but she used that time, of course,
Speaker 1: to go and see Fred instead. Fred.
Speaker 2: Instead, she saw Fred yep, and then some people were dead. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there you go. That sums it up. We're done here
Speaker 2: and that's thanks for joining us today and we can agreement.
Speaker 1: When she turned sixteen, Rose was officially allowed to leave
Speaker 1: the center and she moved in with Fred the first
Speaker 1: chance she got. Her father tried one last time to
Speaker 1: end the relationship by saying that Rose was pregnant and
Speaker 1: that it was statutory rape, so the police examined her.
Speaker 1: It was true Rose was actually pregnant, but she was
Speaker 1: allowed to leave the station under the condition that she
Speaker 1: terminate her pregnancy and go back home to her family.
Speaker 1: Rose agreed, but what she actually did was cut ties
Speaker 1: with her family and officially move in with Fred instead.
Speaker 1: Something Fred and Rose had in calm And that I
Speaker 1: haven't mentioned yet is the abuse. The two of them
Speaker 1: endured growing up. So Rose's father, Bill Letts, was a
Speaker 1: diagnosed schizophrenic, and it's believed that he molested Rose.
Speaker 2: Aw fuck yes.
Speaker 1: And it's also believed that Rose molested her brother.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yes. It's unbelievably sad how common sexual assault is
Speaker 2: within families and the things people endure from it. And
Speaker 2: then it's super sad when you see, like we kind
Speaker 2: of already mentioned it, people learning these things from such
Speaker 2: a young age. But it's so sad when people learn
Speaker 2: these behaviors behaviors and they pass them on to someone else.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and now these two individuals are together and
Speaker 1: forming a relationship, and the kind of abuse that they
Speaker 1: grew up with unfortunately carries on to the next generation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the absolute shittiest kind of power couple. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying it always does. It doesn't always,
Speaker 1: Oh no, not at all, but in this situation it did.
Speaker 2: So yeah. No, there are situations where people like this
Speaker 2: could get together and all they do is help support
Speaker 2: each other and they're there for the other when they
Speaker 2: need it and advocate.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. However, there was the flip side that is Rose. Yep.
Speaker 1: So by the time Fred and Rose's first child, Heather Anne,
Speaker 1: was born. Charmaine and Anna Marie were old enough remember
Speaker 1: what life was like living in the West household. Although
Speaker 1: although they both experienced different kinds of sexual abuse from
Speaker 1: their father, they also experienced physically or physical, emotional and
Speaker 1: mental abuse from Rose. Rose would often beat them, and
Speaker 1: she showed a lot of excitement when someone got hurt
Speaker 1: or started crying. Anna Marie turned into a quiet, submissive
Speaker 1: girl who was just trying to get by, which is
Speaker 1: fucking heartbreaking. This is also heartbreaking. Charmain held on. She
Speaker 1: refused to show fear or to cry, and she often
Speaker 1: told Anna Marie that their mother would come back to
Speaker 1: get them. By nineteen seventy one, Fred was in prison
Speaker 1: for unrelated charges and the girls were left completely at
Speaker 1: the mercy of Rose and her temper. Charmain continued to
Speaker 1: push back, purposely saying things that she knew would like,
Speaker 1: you know, get Rose going, like comparing her to her
Speaker 1: biological mother, and the abuse got worse and worse.
Speaker 2: Fuck.
Speaker 1: Just before Fred was released in the summer of nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy one, Charmaine disappeared.
Speaker 2: Oh fuck. Rose told everyone that.
Speaker 1: Charmaine had gone to live with her mother, and when
Speaker 1: Fred got out of prison, he stood by this statement.
Speaker 1: It didn't, however, take long for Rena to figure out
Speaker 1: that something was wrong and Charmaine was missing.
Speaker 2: She kept coming to Fred's.
Speaker 1: House, putting the pressure on Fred to tell her what
Speaker 1: had happened to her daughter. She was lasting at the house,
Speaker 1: probably demanding to take custody of both her daughters before
Speaker 1: she also disappeared.
Speaker 2: Of course she did. Fuck.
Speaker 1: Six months later, Fred and Rose got married. Fred was
Speaker 1: technically married to Rena, but now that she was nowhere
Speaker 1: to be seen, Fred listed himself as a bachelor on
Speaker 1: the paperwork and went about marrying Rose for the second
Speaker 1: time in his life. Fred married with no one attending
Speaker 1: his wedding except his younger brother John.
Speaker 2: Whoo. I can't believe John just kept attending. At some point,
Speaker 2: you think you'd be like, I'm out. I mean, if
Speaker 2: they have like an open bar, just go to a
Speaker 2: fucking wedding. You're the only person there. Hey, why not
Speaker 2: just get liquered right up? Eh, just sit through the
Speaker 2: ceremony for half an hour and just enjoy your time.
Speaker 2: Like I said, Woo, the one guy in the fucking church. Wow.
Speaker 1: So several months later, Rose was pregnant again and the
Speaker 1: family moved into their forever home, twenty five Cromwell Street.
Speaker 1: This was a three story house, and to help make
Speaker 1: some extra money, the family lived on the ground floor
Speaker 1: and rented out the other bedrooms. But that summer, right
Speaker 1: after she'd given birth to her second daughter, May June,
Speaker 1: Rose found another way to make some extra money as well.
Speaker 2: And that ends is where the story A bit for today? Wow, thanks,
Speaker 2: all right, cool a bit. Well, that was fucking shitty. Okay,
Speaker 2: the podcast has already been probably an hour. We got
Speaker 2: to stop and go to part two.
Speaker 1: Right when she's about to hit the fast no kidding, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Also, I was really looking forward to you saying Yeah,
Speaker 2: they got a new house and they were making some
Speaker 2: extra money. So Fred decided to have a glory hole
Speaker 2: in the house where he did some d sucking.
Speaker 1: No, he had peep holes, he had cool to watch
Speaker 1: things cool, but he did not have any glory holes.
Speaker 2: Wow, fucking Fred, I hate this guy. Yeah, what an absolutely.
Speaker 1: Okay. I was gonna say, like Rose is not much better,
Speaker 1: and she is not at all. But the thing is
Speaker 1: like she was very young too, and so say if
Speaker 1: she had maybe gone with someone that was a better
Speaker 1: influence on her. Yeah, it could have been totally different
Speaker 1: for her, right, So it's but she ended up with
Speaker 1: Fred and he was probably the worst possible influence you
Speaker 1: could ever have.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it hits the fan. But the same thing
Speaker 2: could be said about Fred too, not that I'm defending him,
Speaker 2: just playing devil's advocate here. If he found a woman
Speaker 2: who is good for him to get him out of
Speaker 2: these tendencies, yeah, he could have been a good person too,
Speaker 2: that's true. But I mean, like you said, she was
Speaker 2: quite a bit younger, so that puts him more in
Speaker 2: that driver's seat. But they are definitely not the couple
Speaker 2: for the individuals for each other, because I.
Speaker 1: Think everyone technically has some good in them, right, you
Speaker 1: would help, but then different circumstances and situations can just
Speaker 1: bring the absolute worst out in you. Yeah, and true
Speaker 1: carries forward for like the rest of your life.
Speaker 2: So, and it's how individuals. There's certain circumstances behind everything.
Speaker 2: There's exceptions to every rule, but it is how individuals
Speaker 2: choose to deal with these things. A lot of the times,
Speaker 2: can choose to stand against it. You can choose to
Speaker 2: be something different, or you can go the easier path
Speaker 2: and decide, hey, I'm going to fulfill my fucking desires
Speaker 2: of incest and bestiality and beating individuals, even though you
Speaker 2: know it's not fucking right. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: No, like all these disgusting people, there there is something
Speaker 1: inside them that knows what they're.
Speaker 2: Doing is wrong. Yeah, for sure, to some degree some people,
Speaker 2: unless lesser than others to be fair, unless it's also.
Speaker 1: A mental illness too that is preventing them from realizing,
Speaker 1: well that has happened.
Speaker 2: That's what I mean, to some degree or another, right,
Speaker 2: some much less. But someone like Fred, he knows exactly
Speaker 2: what he's doing. Oh yeah, he's freaking nasty. He's making
Speaker 2: the choice to do these things. So he was brought
Speaker 2: up in a very terrible situation as a kid, not
Speaker 2: his fault whatsoever. No, now he knows the things he's
Speaker 2: doing is wrong, especially considering he went through a court
Speaker 2: process where he's like, isn't everybody having incestual relationships? Am
Speaker 2: I actually doing anything wrong here? Yeah? So he learned
Speaker 2: these things were wrong, but he continued to do them anyways.
Speaker 2: He made the choice to continue his perversions. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: where and.
Speaker 1: Then he brought other people into them too, because the
Speaker 1: thing is they went about choosing they knew what they
Speaker 1: were doing was wrong, because they did go about choosing
Speaker 1: people that wouldn't necessarily be missed or wouldn't necessarily be
Speaker 1: noticed that they were missing right off the bat. So
Speaker 1: that right there was like, yeah, you know, you know
Speaker 1: you're being selective, you're being secretive, like you know what
Speaker 1: you're doing is wrong, being.
Speaker 2: Very methodical about it. Which, yeah, really.
Speaker 1: Fucking Fred, fucking Fred, So you get to endure fucking
Speaker 1: Fred Part two next week.
Speaker 2: Wow, Well, thank you for ending it on that note
Speaker 2: right where shit was getting good or horrifying, however you
Speaker 2: want to look at it. You're welcome. It's a good
Speaker 2: job so far. I know how many emails are we
Speaker 2: going to get like you. I can't believe you're good fish.
Speaker 2: I imagine there's going to be. It's my job. It's
Speaker 2: just gonna make you tune in next week. That's my job.
Speaker 2: That's true. I can't even get to know what it's
Speaker 2: going to be. You're mating making me wait a fucking
Speaker 2: week before we record. If I'm being honest, I don't
Speaker 2: even have part two fully finished. So well, you said
Speaker 2: you have all the information writing it. But yeah, I've
Speaker 2: got to sit here and wait, just like everybody else. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you do. This isn't fair now, I know what they
Speaker 2: go through. It's not fun at all.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I know when I'm always the one
Speaker 1: that lots of times does the part twos. I do
Speaker 1: more part twos you do. I have some other part
Speaker 1: twos coming down the line that I want to do too,
Speaker 1: so but they're fun.
Speaker 2: It's kind of fun. Sometimes it is fun, but it's
Speaker 2: like fuck because.
Speaker 1: You get to you get to deeper dive into the
Speaker 1: cases and like, honestly, this I'm still missing shit in
Speaker 1: this case. Like even by doing two episodes, like I'm
Speaker 1: still not covering everything. Oh yeah, you could probably do
Speaker 1: like five on this this case. It's ginormous.
Speaker 2: So well, I mean, it's just we're in a day
Speaker 2: and age where it's like, oh, new fucking season of
Speaker 2: this show just came out. Let's binge the next twelve
Speaker 2: episodes and learn it all right now and get to indulge.
Speaker 2: We're not in a society anymore. We're made to fucking
Speaker 2: wait for ship.
Speaker 1: But just okay, okay, just go back to when you
Speaker 1: were a kid you watched your favorite show and you
Speaker 1: had to like wait for it to come out the
Speaker 1: following week, and how freaking excited you were that it
Speaker 1: was like here and it was like the best day
Speaker 1: ever and you had something to look forward to, and it.
Speaker 2: Was like, yes, okay, okay, I can relate to that.
Speaker 1: Just go back to that feeling. That's what I'm That's
Speaker 1: what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: For because I would literally run down my driveway to
Speaker 2: catch my show after school.
Speaker 1: I know we need more feelings like that because we're
Speaker 1: in a day and age where yeah, you can just
Speaker 1: consume whenever you want, however you want, and there's not
Speaker 1: really any just like excite, enter like looking forward to
Speaker 1: things as much as there.
Speaker 2: Used to be too chee. So I'm just doing that
Speaker 2: for you. Wow, You're welcome. Way to really try and
Speaker 2: paint yourself in the best like possible in the shitty situation.
Speaker 2: You did a good job. I'll give you that. I mean,
Speaker 2: everyone just going down memory lane and now they're just
Speaker 2: like wow, yeah, like you know what, that's okay. We
Speaker 2: do need this. Wow. Yeah, that was really good. I
Speaker 2: props to you. That was you did really good on
Speaker 2: the episode two. You did really good so far. I
Speaker 2: look forward to part two next Tuesday. If you guys
Speaker 2: want some more behind the scenes content, you can head
Speaker 2: the Patreon. There's a big library of a bunch of
Speaker 2: episodes you can go over there that are exclusive to Patreon.
Speaker 2: You can go check out our YouTube with got some
Speaker 2: vlogs up there, which one from Tafino is gonna be
Speaker 2: posted here shortly.
Speaker 1: M hm.
Speaker 2: We got Instagram, we got Facebook, we got a website,
Speaker 2: you name it. There's a whole slew of stuff in
Speaker 2: our description down below for this podcast. Check it out
Speaker 2: if you want. If not, you're here too, and that's
Speaker 2: what's really important. So thank you so much for your support.
Speaker 2: One way or another, you mean the world. Yeah, we
Speaker 2: love that you're here. We appreciate it and keep doing
Speaker 2: it in until next Tuesday when you're making us wait
Speaker 2: for part two. You're welcome, I already said, and stay wicked,
Speaker 2: or I guess stay wicked. I feel like Mike, You're
Speaker 2: welcome was too harsh. So anyway, thanks for being here. Bye.
Speaker 2: I still got to do this stay Wicked for the
Speaker 2: third time. Now, can you do it again?
Speaker 1: Ok?
Speaker 2: Now it feels right, it feels awkward, now it feels forced.
Speaker 2: Do it you got this. I'm gonna do the long
Speaker 2: why Okay ready yeah, stay wicked.