Speaker 1: I'm John Glover. I was Lionel Luther on Smallville and
Speaker 1: I will always always hold on to Smallville and I hope.
Speaker 2: You all do.
Speaker 3: Two. Welcome to Always hold on to Smallville. In this podcast,
Speaker 3: we've talked about each in every episode of the Young
Speaker 3: Superman Show, the ran from two thousand and one to
Speaker 3: twenty eleven on the WB and the CW. I'm your host,
Speaker 3: Sach Moore, and we're back with our top ten episodes.
Speaker 3: That's right, we're determining the top ten episodes of Smallville
Speaker 3: as voted by you, the listeners, and this time the
Speaker 3: number four entry Memoria, one of the most universally praised
Speaker 3: episodes of Smallville for good reason and whose fingerprints are
Speaker 3: all over it. But Al Goff and Miles Malar wrote
Speaker 3: it and Miles Malar directed it. So who knows these characters,
Speaker 3: these versions of these characters, better than these guys. And
Speaker 3: this is just a definitive Lex Luthor story, his relationship
Speaker 3: with his father, his mother, his brother who died when
Speaker 3: he was a baby, Things that have been hinted at,
Speaker 3: and things have been working towards. This entire series pays
Speaker 3: off continuity. Like everything with Julian doctor Garner Summerhold Institute
Speaker 3: sets up new continuity with Clark being put in the
Speaker 3: spaceship learning the name of his mom. I mean, this
Speaker 3: is just such an amazing hour of television, and it's
Speaker 3: not number one on this list, and you know, it's
Speaker 3: really not number one on my own personal top ten list,
Speaker 3: which always changes, but Memorial is always on that list,
Speaker 3: let me tell you. But even though it's not number one,
Speaker 3: if I had to show people one episode of Smallville,
Speaker 3: I would show them this one now out of context
Speaker 3: with all this payoff payoff for people. I don't know.
Speaker 3: That's hard to say, but I think it's an extremely
Speaker 3: compelling story, regardless if how you cut it. And again,
Speaker 3: when Smallville is at its best, it's these parallels between
Speaker 3: Clark and lex Right, They're literally going to go through
Speaker 3: the exact same procedure here they have these definitive memories
Speaker 3: about their mothers. It's just an amazing hour of television
Speaker 3: and it's no surprise that it finds itself here on
Speaker 3: the top half of our top ten list. Let's look
Speaker 3: back on what we gave Memoria on the letter grade scale.
Speaker 3: On the podcast Proper Memoria had myself and Matt Latham.
Speaker 3: I gave it an A plus and Matt gave it
Speaker 3: an A plus. So can't get much higher than that. Literally,
Speaker 3: cannot get higher than that on our letter grade scale here.
Speaker 3: So here on the top ten episodes, I am once
Speaker 3: again joined by Lance Laster from Always hold On to Arrow,
Speaker 3: Victoria Malay, Matt Truix from Lewis and Clark, the new
Speaker 3: podcast of Superman, and many of the podcasts here on
Speaker 3: the Always hold On To network and Patreon, and Matthew Rocco. So,
Speaker 3: without further ado, let's discuss the number four episode of
Speaker 3: Smallville Memoria.
Speaker 4: On the WB Wednesday Tends My players Lex must gothage
Speaker 4: for the part end when.
Speaker 1: To say.
Speaker 5: Small full Night on the WB Wednesday.
Speaker 3: Memoria. Looking at our top ten list from all of
Speaker 3: us moret is on my top ten list, it's on
Speaker 3: Lance's top ten list, it's on True's top ten list,
Speaker 3: it's on rocu's top ten list. But Victoria, it's not
Speaker 3: on your top ten list? Did you forget about this episode?
Speaker 3: That's my only exponation.
Speaker 2: I don't know what possessed me not to put it
Speaker 2: on this one, because it also has like the pre
Speaker 2: workers that of like Naked tom Welling was like spicy
Speaker 2: And then this episode has always stood out to me
Speaker 2: because it's one of my favorite uses of music on Smallville,
Speaker 2: which is when they I guess is like the most
Speaker 2: emo girl from the early aughts common of all time,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't emo and stupid because I thought they
Speaker 2: used it so beautifully, but using My Immortal as the
Speaker 2: last song to play out the episode, I thought, like
Speaker 2: that has always stayed with me, like one of the
Speaker 2: best uses of pop music on that show.
Speaker 5: Yep, it was really timely at the time too, wasn't
Speaker 5: that like it was really new.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's why I did it doesn't feel like,
Speaker 2: oh it doesn't. They timed it really well.
Speaker 3: Evan essence was mainstream. I mean it was. They were
Speaker 3: in DAREDEVI well, like most of their songs. And actually
Speaker 3: there are two versions of My Immortal they used, like
Speaker 3: the like the acoustic piano one on Smallville. Then there's
Speaker 3: like these the hard rock we love the rock and yeah,
Speaker 3: I know at the.
Speaker 5: End very like call Me when You're Sober or whatever.
Speaker 2: I love God, that's such a good song though song.
Speaker 2: I mean again, I just love those memes where it's
Speaker 2: like me as a thirteen year old listening to like
Speaker 2: my Immortal and then it's like like one of the
Speaker 2: fish from SpongeBob being like, oh, this is so real,
Speaker 2: thirteen and you haven't lived or experienced like most of
Speaker 2: us haven't lived or experienced like any hardship. So yeah, no, no,
Speaker 2: I don't know why I left this one out. I
Speaker 2: think I was just.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It was part of that seven weeks so your memory.
Speaker 3: They got a race Victoria so trucks. Why is this
Speaker 3: in your top ten?
Speaker 5: Well, I just looked this up. This is my top one.
Speaker 5: This is my number one top of the list for me,
Speaker 5: as far as like the Lex Luthor story of it
Speaker 5: goes for me, there is no better episode than just
Speaker 5: kind of encapsulating what this show is trying to do
Speaker 5: with him than this. It is a relatively good man
Speaker 5: that has so much trauma in his life, both as
Speaker 5: an adult and as a child, and it all comes
Speaker 5: to a head here, and like, I feel like this
Speaker 5: episode not only informs everything that's come before it, but
Speaker 5: it informs everything about the character that goes on from here.
Speaker 5: It like it's just this terrible, terrible tragedy that happens
Speaker 5: to him. As a kid and as a result of it.
Speaker 5: It's not his fault in the least, but it brings
Speaker 5: him to this life where he will never truly be loved.
Speaker 2: By tectomic shift.
Speaker 5: It's absolutely and we don't know about it, and he
Speaker 5: doesn't know about it untill so long, and it just like,
Speaker 5: of course he goes dark after this, you know, like
Speaker 5: how could you not? How the hell do you come
Speaker 5: back from that? That's why I love it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I kind of piggybacking up at your point. It's
Speaker 4: just like Lex kind of finally realizes, like why is
Speaker 4: my life like this? And then he realizes why his
Speaker 4: life is like this? And then that informs the decisions
Speaker 4: he makes in the future. Is this realization and these
Speaker 4: memories and like especially that last one, and it says
Speaker 4: so much about like he and his relationship with his father,
Speaker 4: and it's interesting. We get to see multiple sides and
Speaker 4: multiple different facets of Lionel and Lex's relationship as father
Speaker 4: and son. In this episode. We get to see when
Speaker 4: he turns and actually like you know, immediately begins to
Speaker 4: hate Lex. But at the beginning, we get to see
Speaker 4: Lionel being a good father and supporting, you know, his son,
Speaker 4: who's you know, his heartbroken because you know, people didn't
Speaker 4: come to his birthday party. That is the one time
Speaker 4: we've seen Lionel being like a positive role model figure,
Speaker 4: and it's striking. It's jarring because every other time we
Speaker 4: se him on the show, he's up to no good.
Speaker 2: And it's also kind of heartbreaking too, because like, yeah,
Speaker 2: he had the potential, he was able to do that.
Speaker 2: It wasn't like he was this like weird sociopath the
Speaker 2: whole time. I mean, he's definitely like sociopathic, but like
Speaker 2: when you see like the seeing that glimmer of him
Speaker 2: being a decent father just makes everything else like the
Speaker 2: more heartbreaking.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you see that he was capable of love, right,
Speaker 4: and then like you know, which is why it hurts
Speaker 4: so much when Lex is like, yeah, you might have
Speaker 4: actually loved me, It's like that love immediately stopped. And
Speaker 4: then Lex never got that from anybody after like as
Speaker 4: soon as that happened, he never got it from anybody.
Speaker 4: And so Lex's whole thing is like he wants to
Speaker 4: be love. You're looking for love and acceptance and he
Speaker 4: just can't get it.
Speaker 2: And it's also to add to the tragedy he is
Speaker 2: so capable of love because you see like the fact
Speaker 2: he yeah, and sacrifice, like the fact he covered for
Speaker 2: his mother.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, but then that's just such a huge
Speaker 2: scar to bear, and you understand why someone might start
Speaker 2: building up walls after that.
Speaker 3: So, Roco, why is this episode in your top ten list?
Speaker 6: Memoria is in my top ten list because every element
Speaker 6: of production, every element of characterization, it's to me, it's
Speaker 6: one of the most powerful episodes of the entire series.
Speaker 6: It's the writing of Lex Luthor and Lionel, obviously two
Speaker 6: of my favorite characters on the show, to see what
Speaker 6: started the seeds of their animosity as father and son,
Speaker 6: and to go back and to see this almost Shakespearean tragedy,
Speaker 6: which was really beautiful. I thought, I remember when I
Speaker 6: first watched it and moved me so much. It felt
Speaker 6: so sad for Lex's character and even for Lionel, which
Speaker 6: is hard to do. So every element of it, just
Speaker 6: going back to their character arcs, how it plays into
Speaker 6: the larger story of Lex's character and the season long
Speaker 6: story in season three, to get to see when they're
Speaker 6: at their peak odds with each other, to go back
Speaker 6: and see the actual love that they had was just
Speaker 6: a really beautiful thing. And I just thought every element
Speaker 6: of it, from the writing to the acting, which I
Speaker 6: thought was Emmy worthy for both John Glover and Michael Rosenbaum.
Speaker 6: The directing, I thought it was incredible.
Speaker 5: Miles Miller.
Speaker 6: It's just the way that he shot it. It was
Speaker 6: like Citizen Kane meets It was so good.
Speaker 5: It's so incredible.
Speaker 3: Miles Miller, writer and director, has singular vision. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'll co creator the show. So who knows these characters,
Speaker 3: these version of these characters better than him? Right? They
Speaker 3: played their strength in this episode the Luther's right lotas
Speaker 3: and two scenes and then Clark's like, why don't you
Speaker 3: just whyn't you stay away for a while?
Speaker 5: So sit down?
Speaker 3: And then really, I mean it's Clark, Lex and Lionel,
Speaker 3: and then of course the mothers the whole key in
Speaker 3: the you know, Victoria, you were talking about my immortal right.
Speaker 3: They ended that's a mother's love. Like the theme is
Speaker 3: so strong that mother's love never dies. Love never dies,
Speaker 3: that's right, Laura. So just just from start to finish,
Speaker 3: it's brilliant.
Speaker 5: Can we talk about to the shift that we see
Speaker 5: in Lionel, because like he's a good father. In that
Speaker 5: scene in the Birthday, see him where there's nobody there
Speaker 5: and he's just like seemingly making up the story about
Speaker 5: the night and the dragon out of nowhere. And then
Speaker 5: the next time we see him, Julian isn't in and
Speaker 5: he's cold. He's recognizable as the Lionel we know. Is
Speaker 5: it truly like was Lilian right? Is it truly just
Speaker 5: the fact that now I don't have to put all
Speaker 5: my eggs and carrying into this, you know, in his perception,
Speaker 5: this soft boy that I had first, this this you know,
Speaker 5: young person with feelings and all of this, Like do
Speaker 5: now I get too focus on the new light of
Speaker 5: the Luther lion you know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think part of Lionel's deal with lex has
Speaker 3: ever since he got well, even before the meter show
Speaker 3: right in the first scene of the series, really when
Speaker 3: you see him, he's like, you gotta be strong. You
Speaker 3: can't go through life through eyes closed. So he always
Speaker 3: thought he was soft, and then with the meter shower
Speaker 3: like he was bald, so he's like, well, this guy's
Speaker 3: a freak. This guy's damaged goods, you know. So at
Speaker 3: the point you always saw having a second son was like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is my chance to have, you know, a normal
Speaker 3: sun or someone I can really mold in my image.
Speaker 3: And we see that throughout the show, like when Lucas
Speaker 3: Luther comes on for an episode and ever again in
Speaker 3: the alternate universe, right Clark with her, it becomes his
Speaker 3: favorite son.
Speaker 5: Good call, Good Call.
Speaker 3: I like how it's kind of a reckcon because they said, oh,
Speaker 3: my mom gave me this before she died, right, But
Speaker 3: at the same time it's it's not because Line was like, oh,
Speaker 3: your mom got this for you, but she's tired right now,
Speaker 3: so I'm gonna tell you this story. So I thought
Speaker 3: that was a really smart way to make that a
Speaker 3: bonding moment between the two of them. And then who
Speaker 3: has that box? By the way, does Clark still have it?
Speaker 5: I think, right, I don't know. He never gives it
Speaker 5: to Lana, doesn't. He just keeps the necklace in there
Speaker 5: for a second.
Speaker 3: I believe in season six, when Lona is staying with
Speaker 3: him for some reason, going through all Clark's stuff, you know,
Speaker 3: as you do, but you're in someone else's room, I
Speaker 3: think she finds the necklace, the cured necklace inside the box.
Speaker 3: I don't know sure, It's just like, why would Lex
Speaker 3: get this away? I guess back then he was really
Speaker 3: desperate to be his friend, like, hey man, this is
Speaker 3: really important to me, but I want you to have it.
Speaker 2: Didn't they say that all of these things, all of
Speaker 2: these memories were repressed, so he might not have known
Speaker 2: the significance of it.
Speaker 5: Why would he repressed no one coming to his birthday?
Speaker 5: That's so weird?
Speaker 3: Is that not everybody's worst nightmare?
Speaker 2: When they yes, I almost like didn't want to watch
Speaker 2: the episode when it's I was like, oh, great.
Speaker 5: It's heartbreaking. It's really awful.
Speaker 7: Because as a kid, that's your greatest fear, your greatest
Speaker 7: you know, I had a birthday two months ago and
Speaker 7: that was my greatest fear.
Speaker 2: And then but also I was just no, that made
Speaker 2: me think we were talking about the mothers. It was
Speaker 2: so interesting because like I think also a really interesting
Speaker 2: parallel in this episode is like the mother's love because
Speaker 2: like the mothers are you know, like stereotypically weirdly like
Speaker 2: typically like the softer parent or like the more nurturing parent.
Speaker 2: But then I thought it was so interesting with with Laura,
Speaker 2: it also like humanized. That's like the first time we
Speaker 2: see Jarrell as like and we don't really see him,
Speaker 2: but like we conceptualize Jerell as not like an evil presence.
Speaker 2: So I think that's really because like we are and
Speaker 2: we were just talking about how we get that with Lionel,
Speaker 2: so it's really interesting that we also get that on
Speaker 2: Clark's end with Jerrell too, Like it's through Laura and
Speaker 2: this revelation about Laura that we realized that Jerell is
Speaker 2: not just evil Terence Stamp.
Speaker 5: Voice, right, right, that's true, yeah, Clark.
Speaker 3: Clark even says that in the episode, it's like I
Speaker 3: always thought they were monsters, which is crazy, but I
Speaker 3: understand why he because we know Jorell and Laura from
Speaker 3: other Superman things from his perspective, of.
Speaker 5: Course, you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: But speaking of that, so, I thought it was really
Speaker 3: clever what they did was instead of like a real flashback, right,
Speaker 3: they made it like a memory. Yes, and they actually
Speaker 3: did some research of like what memories were children. That's
Speaker 3: why it's all like swirls and pink and and it
Speaker 3: saves them a lot of budget, but it makes sense psychologically. Yes.
Speaker 5: Now, can we geek for a second, and like, is
Speaker 5: they close up on like the hands of Jerell and
Speaker 5: Laura as they're pulling away from the ship and she's
Speaker 5: got that gold ring on it. Is that not like
Speaker 5: a flame bird or night wing reference to like old
Speaker 5: krypton comics.
Speaker 3: It could be, It might be, but the look of
Speaker 3: this scene was influenced by the Birthright comics by Mark
Speaker 3: Wade at the time, and it's almost like a frame
Speaker 3: for frame, pretty much like the clothes they're wearing, the
Speaker 3: rings on their hands. Interesting though, part of the rules
Speaker 3: of Smallville at the time is you can't show other Kryptonians,
Speaker 3: so they got around this by just showing.
Speaker 5: Hands and the.
Speaker 6: Keys.
Speaker 3: The key, the key, the.
Speaker 5: Chef's.
Speaker 3: This episode is so full of little continuity bits, right,
Speaker 3: like the key of the ship, the ship, the lights
Speaker 3: come on when he turns on. Other things too, like
Speaker 3: when Clarke is worried about likes of the beginning, they
Speaker 3: bring out the continuity right. He's like, well, when I
Speaker 3: found you out on the Root eight last year, I
Speaker 3: questioned your sanity and Rinel pulls out the tape from
Speaker 3: from Asylum. I know your secret. I'm like this somebody
Speaker 3: has been watching this season and paid attention.
Speaker 4: Yeah, anyway, Yeah, it was there's like how often have
Speaker 4: you watched that tape?
Speaker 2: Not to bring another fandom into this, but it I
Speaker 2: think there is honestly really something to be said when
Speaker 2: the show's creator writes and directs the episode. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: because I just know in this with Glee, I just
Speaker 2: remember I wrote a paper on Glee in college and
Speaker 2: I was I had to like cite all the episodes
Speaker 2: I referenced. I remember, I was like, all the good episodes,
Speaker 2: or in my opinion, the best episodes of the series
Speaker 2: were all written and or directed by Ryan Murphy, and
Speaker 2: then like everything gets trashy and it's like not Ryan.
Speaker 2: So I feel like I just but it's I feel
Speaker 2: like that's the same thing with this, Like it's no
Speaker 2: one is going to have more care than one of
Speaker 2: the co creators of the show.
Speaker 5: Totally.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a really good point you're bringing out. It's
Speaker 6: like when you bring in something like Breaking Back, it's
Speaker 6: like that Vince Gilligan that he's with the show from
Speaker 6: start to finish and he directs several key episodes, you
Speaker 6: see that vision carried out throughout it.
Speaker 5: And with Small Bill.
Speaker 6: It's like, this is clearly like this whole episode is
Speaker 6: the DNA of early small film.
Speaker 5: It makes me very sad that we lose these guys
Speaker 5: after season seven, you know, yeah, and then their involvement
Speaker 5: goes away so much because, like you look at something
Speaker 5: like like all those shows or Ron Moore or Whedon
Speaker 5: or whoever, and it's just like when when the creator
Speaker 5: sticks with it, they get to keep mining these things
Speaker 5: throughout the seasons and then into a hopefully satisfying finale.
Speaker 3: I was surprised that Miller never directed and wrote anything again.
Speaker 2: He was like this, Oh no, I made it perfect.
Speaker 5: I can't do.
Speaker 3: Exactly just walking away.
Speaker 5: I have to stop.
Speaker 6: Yeah, oh, there there's always that, like on that direct
Speaker 6: directing on the Companion book when wherever books are sold,
Speaker 6: as you say, John Glover says, there is like a
Speaker 6: some sort of disagreement on the first day of shooting
Speaker 6: with him and Miles Miller, and then he wanted to
Speaker 6: go one way, Miles wanted to go another, and then
Speaker 6: he went Miles his way, and he instantly knew Miles's
Speaker 6: way was the way to do it. And I've he
Speaker 6: never specifies what it was, but I'm just always super
Speaker 6: curious what that could have been.
Speaker 5: There are so many distinct moments from him in this
Speaker 5: episode hard to even imagine.
Speaker 4: Yes, with some of these creators, like you just kind
Speaker 4: of kind of have to trust their knowledge and their
Speaker 4: insight because a lot of the times it's the correct one.
Speaker 3: Well, it was very abitious of him to write and
Speaker 3: direct this episode totally.
Speaker 2: I just looked it up and I think technically it
Speaker 2: is co written by Alfred and Miles and then direct
Speaker 2: it by Miles, So I don't want to not give
Speaker 2: Alfred his due.
Speaker 4: I think this definitely gave them like confidence to kind
Speaker 4: of like do their own thing once they left, because like,
Speaker 4: did any of you guys watch Into the bad Lands.
Speaker 5: No, but I hear it's pretty good.
Speaker 4: It's really good. There's lots of kind of nods to
Speaker 4: Small but like the style is very similar in a
Speaker 4: lot of ways. And the funny thing I told Zach
Speaker 4: this like several times, like when I was watching the show,
Speaker 4: but like they love the use of the octagon as
Speaker 4: a shape for stuff, so it's all over the place
Speaker 4: just like it is.
Speaker 2: I just would never be able.
Speaker 3: To doctor Gardner right continuity again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they mentioned past Freaks of the Week. I
Speaker 2: was like, what show am I watching?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is crazy. This is what small buls should
Speaker 3: have been. This is like literally like I cannot poke
Speaker 3: holes in this like I always uly do for fun,
Speaker 3: Like it's so tightly written.
Speaker 5: Oh, there's nothing wrong with this episode.
Speaker 2: No, now that there's like one, now that we're a
Speaker 2: little lighter, I'm like everyone knew Julian was gonna die
Speaker 2: because his name started with J right, like.
Speaker 5: You don't belong here, you can't sit with us.
Speaker 2: He wasn't gonna he wasn't gonna be a long lasting
Speaker 2: thing because he didn't have an l. It's funny, one
Speaker 2: of these things is not like the other.
Speaker 4: Well, hey, Lex's name isn't Lex either, I mean it's Alexander.
Speaker 5: Okay, what do they come and call him? Lean?
Speaker 3: Well that's that's a good point. And you know you
Speaker 3: think this would be the last time we see Julian,
Speaker 3: but no, he's let's.
Speaker 2: Get weird with it, and like, let's take a beautifully
Speaker 2: done episode and like beautiful like pillar of a character
Speaker 2: and just make it real weird in about.
Speaker 5: Four years, every inch of story out of it you
Speaker 5: could possibly small.
Speaker 3: It goes to weird places, it goes for ten years.
Speaker 3: We accept that, but also that's a bit of a
Speaker 3: reccon too, right, but it works because Lex didn't know this, right.
Speaker 3: He thinks Julian died from SIDS, and that's something they
Speaker 3: mentioned in season one, but pulling all the deep continuity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like I think maybe because the retcons
Speaker 2: actually like check out, like like I don't know, like
Speaker 2: the baby like SIDS is heartbreaking, but it happens, and
Speaker 2: it's also like, yeah, a very convenient but believable explanation
Speaker 2: for why this baby died without any.
Speaker 5: Trauma too, like ersually, if you're billionaires and can't really
Speaker 5: get into this, I'm sorry. Do I not remember how
Speaker 5: Julian came back? Was he not a clone? Okay, don't
Speaker 5: scare me. I was like, did he? Did the kids survive?
Speaker 2: I loved one small hole, But one thing I loved
Speaker 2: was that they never show I think you see it
Speaker 2: for a split second, and I was kind of angry
Speaker 2: about it. They never showed Julian like once he's been
Speaker 2: suffocated in the crib, and I thought that was so brilliant,
Speaker 2: and I you know, like it was a technical thing
Speaker 2: because it's just a baby doll, probably, but like I thought,
Speaker 2: it's like the hitchcocky and thing where you never let
Speaker 2: the audience see it because what they're imagining is always
Speaker 2: going to be you, and you have such great You
Speaker 2: see him for a second when Lex, when Lex discovers
Speaker 2: that Lilian did it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just long enough to really make an impact though.
Speaker 3: That slow motion pillow, Yeah, that's the that's what really
Speaker 3: does it exactly. And her.
Speaker 6: That little frame that I guess they I read they
Speaker 6: fought to get that little frame in there that really
Speaker 6: worth it, like they wanted it was the power of
Speaker 6: just that little second of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I was just like, yeah, No. I also thought, like,
Speaker 2: it's funny. I'm not here. I don't want to like
Speaker 2: criticize a major fandom. I'm complimenting Smallville. I'm just like,
Speaker 2: it's so crazy because there's I think there's two certain
Speaker 2: superhero shows now that I can't get into because they
Speaker 2: just feel so cheap compared to Smallville. And it's because
Speaker 2: of episodes like this that are so beautifully shot and
Speaker 2: so well acted and so just well made. And I
Speaker 2: want to say one thing and then I want to
Speaker 2: talk about transitions. Also, another reason why you don't show
Speaker 2: the baby doll is because you have these really good
Speaker 2: actors like also like I mean John Glover's John Glover.
Speaker 2: But like also those two guest stars as young Lex
Speaker 2: and Lilian, you don't need to show the baby doll
Speaker 2: because they're giving it all to you, like they don't
Speaker 2: need it. And then I also thought the transitions into
Speaker 2: the memory were brilliant because they were like I think
Speaker 2: that was probably the most minimal of CGI and the
Speaker 2: fact that they were all done practice.
Speaker 3: I was just like, yes, beautiful, Yeah, they all most
Speaker 3: of that was done in camera with a couple of additions,
Speaker 3: but that that's so it gets you in that whimsical
Speaker 3: mindset of Lex because it's not a flashback in like
Speaker 3: a story. It's like his mind flashing back. And it's
Speaker 3: so it's so cool to use the visual language of that, Yeah,
Speaker 3: to get you into that mode, because it'd been so
Speaker 3: easy just in like a uh, you know, an ad
Speaker 3: ad dissolve.
Speaker 5: But then but like, yeah, the darkness and then especially
Speaker 5: those lights on him for the first time that we're
Speaker 5: in the baby's room there, like that is so haunting,
Speaker 5: and then and then Lionel to bring him out of
Speaker 5: it there. But yeah, I know, you're absolutely right, Victoria,
Speaker 5: It's so cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was just like a lesson in
Speaker 2: transitions on the screen.
Speaker 3: It was brilliant.
Speaker 6: The transitions are incredible. What whenever, like literally whenever I
Speaker 6: have to shoot transitions in a film of any kind
Speaker 6: in terms of flashbacks, always going back to memorial.
Speaker 3: Speaking of the guest stars real quick. This is something
Speaker 3: that always confused me because I thought we needn't see
Speaker 3: Lily until this episode, right, but Lex had red hair,
Speaker 3: and all these women Lionel are into have red hair,
Speaker 3: like Tess's mom in season one, Martha Martha Kid. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, sure, surely Lily and Luther's gonna
Speaker 3: be redhead, and she's not.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is kind of weird.
Speaker 6: But then like later when she comes back as you know,
Speaker 6: in like Blexsmiths and stuff, it looks like she has more.
Speaker 3: They corrected that later, like we'll just make it red
Speaker 3: when she's a ghost.
Speaker 5: I guess fine, No.
Speaker 3: It's just the thing I noticed because I just in
Speaker 3: my head, I always assumed she was gonna be a redhead.
Speaker 6: But anyway, oh, maybe the redhead thing is the thing
Speaker 6: Lionel can't have. So it's like he's got a brunette,
Speaker 6: but he's secret.
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's why.
Speaker 5: He's with Rachel Dundley and stuff. Rachel.
Speaker 4: Another interesting thing that I noticed this last time that
Speaker 4: I watched the score really really good.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I was very impressed because normally, like you know, the
Speaker 4: scores was kind of whatever a lot of times, but
Speaker 4: you could tell this time they they made it special. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and there's lots of callbacks to like, you know, other
Speaker 4: things that like that I realized from like from classical
Speaker 4: music and other type of things, but like the especially
Speaker 4: the scene when Clark is being submerged into the tank.
Speaker 4: That is some gorgeous brass writing that was going on there.
Speaker 4: So I was like, well done, well done, Yeah cool, Oh.
Speaker 5: See you said that, And I thought of that like
Speaker 5: kind of twinkly like panon music and the oh that
Speaker 5: too is exactly.
Speaker 4: Like you know, making it, yeah, making it sound like
Speaker 4: a mobile. But then like also like when young Lex
Speaker 4: is coming up the stairs with the food and then
Speaker 4: all of a sudden he hears the baby screaming and
Speaker 4: then the piano starts going like all these distances and stuff.
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, that's brilliant, that's great. Yep.
Speaker 6: I think it's one of the best scores. And was
Speaker 6: it just me or probably not. But when you know,
Speaker 6: when when the soundtracks came out with Mark Snow Music,
Speaker 6: I was like so trying to find the score for WRE.
Speaker 6: I don't think it was on there if I remember correct.
Speaker 3: I don't think really there's only like a like a
Speaker 3: two disc set out of ten years of music. So
Speaker 3: I would I would totally buy like the complete Smallville
Speaker 3: music box set maybe one day.
Speaker 5: So, oh would you you're kidding?
Speaker 3: Well, you don't think I would not joke you by
Speaker 3: the complete Birds of Brain box. It'd be like cheaper
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 5: Right, can we talk about just it's a stupid thing,
Speaker 5: But like Lex is in a gray coat.
Speaker 7: Guys is a great coat a great coat too. It
Speaker 7: feels like he's actually like working through stuff and getting lighter.
Speaker 7: And then I didn't really catch it untill I watched
Speaker 7: it for this, but like, the gray coat is very
Speaker 7: much reminiscent of the gray robe that baby Les is
Speaker 7: in when he sees him in the last thing.
Speaker 5: It's an interesting choice for this episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is like the only maybe one other time
Speaker 3: we see him where it's like this thick, whole, you know,
Speaker 3: gray coat. Usually he's in his black trench coat, just
Speaker 3: like his dad's nice to see him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well there's always purple.
Speaker 3: Well, speaking speaking of clothes, uh yeah, I do want
Speaker 3: to get back to the thing we mentioned very early,
Speaker 3: like doctor Gardner, I don't know, some forty year old doctor.
Speaker 3: He's like instructing his assistants to tear all the clothes
Speaker 3: off of like seventeen year old Clark and a tub
Speaker 3: and his underwear.
Speaker 2: I was like, love, wait, I'm not watching a fan thic.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, cool, fine, Like, well, no, it's so funny
Speaker 2: because I think I've said it on an episode of
Speaker 2: the podcast before, because when I was I watched the
Speaker 2: show when I was like twelve, and I was just
Speaker 2: so like, oh my god, he's so beautiful. Like I
Speaker 2: just like didn't I didn't have the same like periphery
Speaker 2: and like awareness. But like, since revisiting this show, I
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, Zak No, I understand now
Speaker 2: why there was all this like slash fan fiction between
Speaker 2: Clark and Lax. Oh oh I get it.
Speaker 3: Now, help me Lax at the end.
Speaker 5: That's great, you guys.
Speaker 6: Remember on the commentary too, on that note where Miles,
Speaker 6: Miller and Ell and Michael are like like they just
Speaker 6: always are in awe of their actors, like beautiful physiques,
Speaker 6: and they're just like on that part where they're ripping
Speaker 6: Tom's like Miles is like I think it was on
Speaker 6: this college Chary. He's like, oh God, like people just
Speaker 6: this beautiful. Just they shouldn't exist. Michael's like, look.
Speaker 5: At those.
Speaker 3: Had to like shave like his chest and all that,
Speaker 3: like right, like to have the illusion of being Roseamund
Speaker 3: was in great shape this season this episode and then
Speaker 3: in an exile and he's running around on the island.
Speaker 6: Workouts are still going on for him.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to talk about the moms real quick.
Speaker 2: She's so good in everything, but like that I just
Speaker 2: loved a net O tool just like giving you the
Speaker 2: heart you need in this scene. And I thought that
Speaker 2: scene was so beautifully written in the barn between Clark
Speaker 2: and Martha and just like so beautifully handled and like
Speaker 2: I'm not adopted that I know, but just like I'm
Speaker 2: way too much like my parents biologically and behaviorally. But
Speaker 2: I think like that scene where he's like, that was
Speaker 2: my mom and he goes, I wish he could she
Speaker 2: could have met you. Like I just thought it was
Speaker 2: so beautifully handled. And then was also when she has that,
Speaker 2: it's just such a lesson in like subtext, like between
Speaker 2: Lionel and Martha and he's like you can always come back,
Speaker 2: and he's trying to express sympathy for.
Speaker 4: Exactly yeahand I know your best your Jonathan.
Speaker 2: And she's like he's not weak.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then also like the guest star that, like, I
Speaker 2: just feel like the guest star game on this was
Speaker 2: one hundred percent. And because also the woman who played Lilian,
Speaker 2: like again, like it's different for an actor who's had
Speaker 2: three years with this character to like kind of take
Speaker 2: it to this level. But when you're coming in like
Speaker 2: relatively cold and you have to be on par with everyone,
Speaker 2: Like my hat's off to those guest stars.
Speaker 4: It'd be interesting to see what Lilian's like, you know
Speaker 4: what she used for research. I was getting like some
Speaker 4: serious k Corleone vibes total of her, you know, especially
Speaker 4: like you know what you think about case. It's like
Speaker 4: I didn't want to bring another child into this world.
Speaker 4: When she's you know, yelling at Michael and Godfather bar too. Yeah,
Speaker 4: that's essentially what Lilian was saying, you know about like
Speaker 4: you know, how she how she wasn't like, you know,
Speaker 4: embracing you know, Julian when he was crying. Yeah, that's
Speaker 4: kind of what I was thinking. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is this is good, Like it's like your smiles
Speaker 4: get into The Godfather too, all right.
Speaker 3: That not inflicts psychological scars on my children?
Speaker 1: Ye?
Speaker 5: Yeah that And and this sounds dumb because it was
Speaker 5: still a show on the WB and all that, but
Speaker 5: like there are Shakespearean levels of like family drama going on.
Speaker 8: With the Loop.
Speaker 5: Absolutely so like actors like that. And I think that's
Speaker 5: why John Glover had so much fun for so long,
Speaker 5: to just get to dive right into that. And she
Speaker 5: must have seen that subtext and seen a bit of
Speaker 5: what what Glover does on his good days and and
Speaker 5: there you go when he's not like making Krypton and
Speaker 5: keys or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: And on that note too, Uh, it just brings to
Speaker 6: mind a very Godfather moment now that you say that
Speaker 6: lands because it's like fast forward to season seven and
Speaker 6: they have another ashback Pavilion and Lionel straight up says, uh,
Speaker 6: don't ask me about my business.
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly, business.
Speaker 3: I forgot about Veritas flash. Don't ask me about my business.
Speaker 3: K final thing that I that I would say of
Speaker 3: this episode is that I really like how well it's
Speaker 3: I like it, but it's also hilarious how like assertive
Speaker 3: Clark is in this episode he follows let to this,
Speaker 3: you know, his summer hall, and Lex goes in. He
Speaker 3: comes out to his car, He's gonna get in the
Speaker 3: Clark just comes outnumber what do you do with their lax?
Speaker 4: Well, we laughed at how like he didn't give him
Speaker 4: a ride afterwards, like he just drives.
Speaker 2: Well, I figured like he thought he had a car, right.
Speaker 3: How the hell did you get your Cark? He's like,
Speaker 3: he's not offering him a ride this time. Ultimately, though,
Speaker 3: and this is this is a very dark question. I
Speaker 3: guess if you were Lex, right, would you have done
Speaker 3: the same thing? Would you have protected your mom and
Speaker 3: took the blame fam I mean, I know, I.
Speaker 2: Will, I think I I don't know, but I got
Speaker 2: when he I got the explanation because when he said,
Speaker 2: like he's like, my like, my mom would have been
Speaker 2: the lamb to the slaughter, Like you couldn't have gotten
Speaker 2: rid of me because I was your only heir.
Speaker 6: And can you imagine for like every time I see
Speaker 6: that moment. Can you imagine just placing yourself in the
Speaker 6: mind of being what, like lex is twelve years old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, making that snap decision, yes.
Speaker 6: And being a twelve year old and knowing that your
Speaker 6: dad would kill your mom and that he won't kill you,
Speaker 6: not out of love but out of the legacy thing.
Speaker 6: And to be twelve and know that it's like, oh
Speaker 6: my gosh, that's so sad and so crazy like to
Speaker 6: think about.
Speaker 5: I think that's my answer to your question, Zach, Like
Speaker 5: I hope that at twelve I would have been smart
Speaker 5: enough to figure out that out, you know, but I
Speaker 5: don't matter.
Speaker 3: Well, no, I mean it's true though, It's like it's
Speaker 3: anyone who understands how like you know, families, right, they're
Speaker 3: weird things, and so you can totally be like you
Speaker 3: can understand that the twisted logic of well, you know,
Speaker 3: make omaniac, business mogul, only son. Yeah, oh, and you're
Speaker 3: an only child. It's like, well, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm all you got, so I can push things a
Speaker 3: no further than you don't really know.
Speaker 5: Your dad's got side pieces already anyway. You don't know
Speaker 5: about your sister, but you know.
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny. It's funny. This also, I know we're
Speaker 2: talking about Shakespearean and I totally agree with that, but
Speaker 2: it honestly really reminds me of the Prince Charles episode
Speaker 2: I can't I think it's the second season of The Crown.
Speaker 2: The linel Lex dynamic is very similar to that, but
Speaker 2: it's it's it just kind of echoes and also like
Speaker 2: adds to this whole thing where their their relationship is
Speaker 2: at the stakes of like Shakespeare or like Royalty, where
Speaker 2: it's just like these like incredibly heightened crazy stakes. I
Speaker 2: wish wait, you guys keep talking. I'm gonna find the
Speaker 2: episode cool because it's it's like set at a boarding school,
Speaker 2: and like Charles is like a more sensitive person, but
Speaker 2: he's like forced to go to this very like austere,
Speaker 2: tough school.
Speaker 3: Cool, you know, to that point. I don't know the
Speaker 3: name of this episode, but this is the episode of
Speaker 3: Daredevil season one about the Kingpins origin very much like that.
Speaker 3: You know, this is like your your window into why
Speaker 3: this guy is the way he is, and you relate
Speaker 3: to one hundred percent.
Speaker 4: I think, like what episode eight.
Speaker 3: That shot in the arm, right, you're just trying to
Speaker 3: get start to get tired to watch on these one day,
Speaker 3: as I watched Dared Devil season one in one day.
Speaker 3: I've never done that again, And yeah, you do.
Speaker 5: All tired till the child starts beating his father's head
Speaker 5: in against so and.
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, now I'm back.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm awake, I'm here.
Speaker 3: I mean, yes, the Kingpin is bold and all that,
Speaker 3: but there are parallels with teen these episodes. I thought
Speaker 3: the mother Father song connection between that family as equally
Speaker 3: dysfunctional in its own way as the Luther's are.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2: Okay, guys, I can't find the episode of The Crown,
Speaker 2: but it's the Prince Charles cent Trick one. I think
Speaker 2: it's in season two, right on.
Speaker 6: I need to see that show now.
Speaker 5: That sounds incredible.
Speaker 2: It's like one of the best shows of all time.
Speaker 6: And I also know I need to catch up with
Speaker 6: Their Devil because everyone's and telling me that too.
Speaker 4: Bro, get on it.
Speaker 6: I guess while we're throwing out parallels, I'll just throw
Speaker 6: out anyone here familiar with the Paul Thomas Anderson film,
Speaker 6: there will be blood.
Speaker 3: But this should be Oh yeah, he should take your milkshake.
Speaker 6: It's yes, exactly the whole father something. It just reminds
Speaker 6: me a little bit of that too, the mega madiac
Speaker 6: and the thinking his son is sort of weak, but
Speaker 6: you wonder is there real love there there? It seems
Speaker 6: like there is, but then it turns into this awful
Speaker 6: thing at the very end.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's this stuff is like all over in
Speaker 4: in literature and and like on stage, like I mean
Speaker 4: like Fences, you know, like, oh my god, that's it's
Speaker 4: the same same type of dynamic.
Speaker 3: You know, if I had to pick the best acting
Speaker 3: woman in Smallville, it would probably be the last scene
Speaker 3: between John Glover and Micro just yeah, absolutely complete emotional
Speaker 3: gauntlet that Glover goes through. It's like if I if
Speaker 3: I hit no, things would be so I mean, like
Speaker 3: it goes from being dismissive and aggressive to like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, like you're my son and I love you,
Speaker 3: and it's like it's too late for Rex.
Speaker 4: Right, Oh yeah. And then and then yeah, Lennon Lex
Speaker 4: with the straight gut punch at the end, with the
Speaker 4: you know, you might have loved me and then saying
Speaker 4: no and then walking away.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that last shot of Lionel from behind too, is
Speaker 5: one of the prettiest images the show ever created. It's gorgeous.
Speaker 6: So I think that that that whole moment should have
Speaker 6: won an Emmy, like the the acting, the directing, like everything.
Speaker 3: I agree, I think, you know, I think there are
Speaker 3: a lot of fans of genre shows, right who are
Speaker 3: so in the echo chamber of the one show they
Speaker 3: loved and like just the best show everything. You know. Okay,
Speaker 3: but I will I will go to bat for Smubble
Speaker 3: and say no this episode. If I show me one
Speaker 3: episode of Smuble's best, I'd be like I'd submitted for
Speaker 3: your approval memorial, right, and so so really I do.
Speaker 3: But there's Emmy's technical acting, you know. I just think
Speaker 3: that across the board, this is just an excellent A
Speaker 3: plus episode and I really would put it up against
Speaker 3: all the best episodes of television period because it's all there, people.
Speaker 4: Oh it's it's that it ranks up there with like
Speaker 4: with some of the rates. It would definitely hold its
Speaker 4: own with like the best episode from lots of great
Speaker 4: TV shows. This is definitely up there.
Speaker 5: Totally agreed. And Lona's in the two.
Speaker 3: Why is she going to give like what the bills
Speaker 3: of the talent?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Night and yeah closing, I don't know nobody owns
Speaker 5: a watch in small.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, ready, here's Victoria's ready to explain it away.
Speaker 2: It seems like that. I think it looked like it
Speaker 2: was still chilly, so maybe it wasn't daylight set, so
Speaker 2: maybe it's just early.
Speaker 5: Maybe it was like five thirty and yeah.
Speaker 8: Own the third season of Smallville on DVD. Clark's World
Speaker 8: shutters by the World He Left Behind, Get action packed extras.
Speaker 8: Why is the third season of Smallville no? On DBD?
Speaker 3: All right, I hope you all enjoyed our discussion on
Speaker 3: Memoria and Memoria is such a great episode. It's the
Speaker 3: nineteenth episode of the third season. But they might as
Speaker 3: well have just ended the season right there. Obviously, obviously
Speaker 3: they couldn't. There's a lot more plot lines to wrap
Speaker 3: up for the season, and Covenant is a good finale.
Speaker 3: I think at the time watching Live in season three,
Speaker 3: I was a little disappointed in Covenant. It felt like
Speaker 3: a just a standalone kind of episode, because you know,
Speaker 3: season two had ended with a two parter, season three
Speaker 3: had begun with a two parter. Then Memoria was so fantastic,
Speaker 3: and then we get a couple episodes that you know
Speaker 3: they're not the best episodes ever Talisman and Forsaken, but Covenant.
Speaker 3: I mean that ending montage for spoiler's Covenant is not
Speaker 3: on the top ten list everybody, In case you were
Speaker 3: waiting for it to show up, it's not here. So
Speaker 3: I'll talk about it for a minute. It is a
Speaker 3: great finale, that ending montage with Mozart's work reem and
Speaker 3: seeing the characters and all the situations they find themselves
Speaker 3: into in the season, and to leave you not being
Speaker 3: able to wait to see what happens next season. Incredible
Speaker 3: stuff do it? Winyl shaving his head sounded like Palpatine there,
Speaker 3: But why don't getting his head shaved and all this
Speaker 3: going on? And you know, maybe it's the fact that
Speaker 3: it's the fake Supergirl there that throws some things off.
Speaker 3: I can't really put any finger on it, but looking
Speaker 3: back on it, Covenant is a really satisfying, great finale
Speaker 3: and it really ties together the entire season from things
Speaker 3: that got set up at the beginning of the season.
Speaker 3: So that being said, I think, and that's my point here,
Speaker 3: I think in the shadow of Memoria, nothing can live
Speaker 3: up right. It's almost unfair to ask Covenant to follow
Speaker 3: up Memoria just a couple episodes later, so that might
Speaker 3: have been a factor there, because usually for Smallville premieres
Speaker 3: and finales, with some notable exceptions, and you all know
Speaker 3: which ones I'm talking about, they delivered, They satisfy, they
Speaker 3: are hype, and I'm gonna blame Memoria for why I
Speaker 3: wasn't so hype for Covenant back in two thousand and four.
Speaker 3: Not to say I didn't like it again, I just
Speaker 3: think Memoria took some of the juice out of that
Speaker 3: because when you reach that peak, right, it's hard to
Speaker 3: recapture it, and that's where Covenant found itself, I think.
Speaker 3: But Memoria again, just a brilliant episode, and it brings
Speaker 3: so much, you know, pathos empathy to Lex Luthor and
Speaker 3: a version where we already had so much for him,
Speaker 3: and it really just defines this version of the character.
Speaker 3: And it's just so well done and smallvill should be
Speaker 3: really proud of itself for this episode. And we're moving
Speaker 3: into that range now. I know, off the top, I said,
Speaker 3: if I was gonna show be but one episode of Smallville,
Speaker 3: it'd be this one. You know, when you're in the
Speaker 3: top five of the top ten episodes, we're talking cream
Speaker 3: of the crop here, So any of these next episodes
Speaker 3: we're gonna list off here on the top ten episodes
Speaker 3: would be a worthy Hey check out Smallville. This is
Speaker 3: why I love it so much. This is why I
Speaker 3: have devote it so much of my life to this show.
Speaker 3: So we've been keeping track of the bangers. The needle
Speaker 3: drops here on the top ten episodes, and we have
Speaker 3: another one May Immortal by Evan Essence, and I don't
Speaker 3: think you can find a band that is more early
Speaker 3: two thousand, specifically two thousand and three two thousand and
Speaker 3: four than Evan Essence. That album they had all the
Speaker 3: songs they had on Daredevil the movie, which I like
Speaker 3: more than most people, even the theatrical version. I think
Speaker 3: the director's cut is far superior. But I like both versions.
Speaker 3: I like Daredevil when I saw it in the theater.
Speaker 3: What a rock and soundtrack. Sometimes the songs they picked
Speaker 3: were a little over the top, but so was that movie, right.
Speaker 3: So all that to say, they used the piano version
Speaker 3: of My Immortal here at the end of this episode,
Speaker 3: and it's very appropriate to use that version instead of
Speaker 3: the hard rock version that would not have fit the
Speaker 3: emotional beats they're hitting at the end of the episode
Speaker 3: with that, but what a song, What a time to
Speaker 3: be alive? Small Well just hitting on all cylinders with
Speaker 3: this episode, especially again with the soundtrack with the needle drop.
Speaker 3: So again, I hope you all enjoyed our conversation. Stay
Speaker 3: tuned next week to find out which episode is the
Speaker 3: number three episode of Smallville as voted by you, the listeners,
Speaker 3: and until then, Always hold on To Smallville. Always hold
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Speaker 2: As