Speaker 1: We're in waiting.
Speaker 2: Welcome back midnight viewers to midnight Viewing. I'm following alone
Speaker 2: and we have a very special episode this week. Why
Speaker 2: what huh? It's comic book related. And joining me here
Speaker 2: to talk about it is our resident noise Junkie, the
Speaker 2: host of Night, mister Walter it was a taxi podcast,
Speaker 2: and the composer of everything You're gonna hear at the
Speaker 2: weirding Way Media Network. Mister HP, how are you, sir?
Speaker 3: I'm well, but just don't make me angry, because you
Speaker 3: wouldn't like me when I'm angry fo them alone.
Speaker 2: I certainly wouldn't.
Speaker 3: Sorry, that was That's like a dad That's a really
Speaker 3: bad dad joke.
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, but it's appropriate for what we're talking about tonight,
Speaker 2: because what we are talking about tonight is the Trial
Speaker 2: of the Incredible Hulk from nineteen eighty nine. It's a
Speaker 2: TV movie, the second TV movie since the cancelation of
Speaker 2: the series. They had the Return of the Incredible Hulk
Speaker 2: right before this with Thor. That's right, Thor showed up
Speaker 2: in that one.
Speaker 3: Can I say I much prefer going into this? I
Speaker 3: have to say I much prefer the Incredible Hulk returns
Speaker 3: because okay, it was so.
Speaker 2: No, I'm going to stop you right there because we're
Speaker 2: just gonna get to why we're talking about this. And
Speaker 2: then I brought wapstraxotic about that fucking horrible that Dono
Speaker 2: the Donald Blake thing. Next week over there on the
Speaker 2: Disney Plus Networks, Marvel is reintroducing Daredevil to the world,
Speaker 2: the most successful version of Daredevil.
Speaker 3: HB.
Speaker 2: I know you're a deep Daredevil fan. We're going to
Speaker 2: get into that. You are. You love Daredevil more than
Speaker 2: any other superhero. It's on my favorite You are on
Speaker 2: record as that. Are you looking forward to the new reboot?
Speaker 3: I absolutely am looking forward to it. I think original
Speaker 3: the When I say original, the first Daredevil series was fantastic.
Speaker 3: I absolutely love Vincent Andofrio as Kingpin. So that's reason
Speaker 3: enough for me to want to see this. But to
Speaker 3: your point that this is the best and frankly what
Speaker 3: you only one of two renderings of Daredevil in pop
Speaker 3: culture actually three, counting Ben Affleck as Ben Affleck as Daredevil.
Speaker 3: Excuse me? So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. How
Speaker 3: about yourself?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm dying to state it. Can't wait. I
Speaker 2: love it. I thought that was the best thing that
Speaker 2: came out of Marvel Television. I thought every other series
Speaker 2: dropped the ball in one way or but Daredevil was
Speaker 2: always really great. And that's where we got our Punisher.
Speaker 2: And I'm totally cool with them introducing all the characters
Speaker 2: on his show as a form of spinoffs, but as
Speaker 2: a way of a tribute a primer. We do this
Speaker 2: every time. Primer. I'm saying for next week's Daredevil reborn,
Speaker 2: is that what it's called? What's it called? Daredevil? I
Speaker 2: you can come on life ever last called something catholic
Speaker 2: basically born again.
Speaker 3: That's it, born again. You're right, it is. There is
Speaker 3: a bit of Catholicism to.
Speaker 2: Know that ain't calicism. That's fucking Those are the crazy Baptists,
Speaker 2: all right. Anyway, So to commemorate that series coming out,
Speaker 2: we're looking back to the very first appearance of Daredevil
Speaker 2: on the screen, not counting his animated appearance in Spider
Speaker 2: Man and Amazing Friends back in nineteen eighty two or three.
Speaker 2: This is the Trial of the Incredible Hulk.
Speaker 1: David Benner wanted to end the running. He wanted to
Speaker 1: live in peace. You have to stop something, but once
Speaker 1: again they made him angry. Maybe angry enough to kill.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm along in a cage now imprisoned. He will
Speaker 1: struggle to hide the fury within him, but he will
Speaker 1: not succeed. I can't stand trial.
Speaker 2: You had no.
Speaker 1: Choice, because now David Benner faces his greatest trial, the
Speaker 1: Trial of the Incredible Hulk.
Speaker 2: Hb It's nineteen eighty nine. Are you watching the Trial
Speaker 2: of the Incredible Hulk?
Speaker 3: The original series with Bill Bixby was probably a slightly
Speaker 3: before my time. I think I was a little too
Speaker 3: young to really. I mean, look, all we wanted as kids,
Speaker 3: father Malone, was to watch the Incredible Hulk hulk out
Speaker 3: and mess stuff up.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: There was a little too little of that in the
Speaker 3: original series for me, but Luf Forarigno as the Incredible
Speaker 3: Hulk was iconic for me. So yes, absolutely, I was
Speaker 3: looking forward to seeing this. As I said before, I
Speaker 3: loved The Incredible Hulk Returns and I was hoping for
Speaker 3: more of the same here.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about The Incredible Hulk Returns. And that was
Speaker 2: the movie that preceded this one and then did well
Speaker 2: enough to inspire another one, but only as another backdoor pilot,
Speaker 2: because was not that The Incredible Hulk Returns was in
Speaker 2: fact a backdoor pilot for Thor. What is it about
Speaker 2: that first one you love so much? Before we get
Speaker 2: to your favorite superhero character, Daredevil?
Speaker 3: It was so much fun. Look, I wasn't expecting to
Speaker 3: see a comic accurate depiction of Thor, nor did we
Speaker 3: get that in any way, shape or form, Because originally
Speaker 3: this is going back to Journey into Mystery. Thor had
Speaker 3: been bent to the earth as Donald Blake by Odin.
Speaker 3: He forgot who he was a lame And when I
Speaker 3: say lame, I mean somebody who had who couldn't walk,
Speaker 3: who had a cane named Donald Blake, who was secretly Thor,
Speaker 3: And through various machinations, he finally figures out who he
Speaker 3: is and the cane. He strikes the cane and he
Speaker 3: becomes Thor. But that's not what we get in The
Speaker 3: Incredible Hulk Returns. You get it's Donald Blake is like
Speaker 3: an explorer or a scientist, father alone, and he finds
Speaker 3: Flor's hammer and an excavation. Go into that A little
Speaker 3: bit me.
Speaker 2: Thing. Man, I watched this when it came out, and
Speaker 2: I saw never to watch it again. So I have
Speaker 2: made him Donald Blake turning into Thor. He was in
Speaker 2: a situation where he couldn't make a lot of noise
Speaker 2: and he has to say odin when he turns into
Speaker 2: Thor and he whispered yells it like that.
Speaker 3: HP.
Speaker 2: I don't know how that one ended, because I turned
Speaker 2: it off at that point.
Speaker 3: There's no The thing that The Trial of Incredible Hulk
Speaker 3: has over this is there's an actual villain, like a
Speaker 3: nemesis for the Hulk and for his superhero of the week.
Speaker 3: But in the in Returns there's not much of a villain.
Speaker 3: Tim Thomerson is actually the villain, if you can believe it.
Speaker 3: Charles Napier is in there somewhere from the Good Old Boys,
Speaker 3: from the Blues Brothers. He's a henchman. But the point
Speaker 3: I was making was Donald Blake and Thor in this
Speaker 3: version are two separate entities. They coexist at the same time. Basically,
Speaker 3: Blake summons Thor to kick ass, and then he says
Speaker 3: odin again and he gets sucked away to whatever dimension
Speaker 3: he resides until he needs him again. Anyway, they team
Speaker 3: up with the Hulk and have all these fun little
Speaker 3: misadventures and that's it.
Speaker 2: In a nutshell terrible. Okay, let's move on, We're I
Speaker 2: liked it.
Speaker 3: It's look, it's not gonna win any awards, but it
Speaker 3: was fun.
Speaker 2: Somebody says we got to turn Marvel's Daredevil into a series.
Speaker 2: This is the second attempt to turn it into a
Speaker 2: live action series in the nineteen eighties. By the way,
Speaker 2: they attempted back in nineteen eighty one but couldn't get
Speaker 2: any buyers. So here's another chance. We got a little
Speaker 2: bit of juice from the Hulk left, Let's squeeze it
Speaker 2: till it's green gow on the floor. It's so they
Speaker 2: can conct the Trial of the Incredible Hulk. Was it
Speaker 2: always called the try? I love the Incredible Hulk.
Speaker 3: You wonder I don't know about this precious little trial
Speaker 3: going on in this The only trial I can think
Speaker 3: of is a dream sequence that David Banner has when
Speaker 3: he's afraid he's going to hulk out if he's forced
Speaker 3: to testify. But there's to my knowledge, there's never any
Speaker 3: other courtroom appearances in the whole movie. I don't know
Speaker 3: why they called it that, To be.
Speaker 2: Fair, it's so they could call it the Trial of
Speaker 2: the Incredible Hulk and they can make that crazy poster
Speaker 2: with him on the stand, raising his arms and howling,
Speaker 2: and then everyone will tune in. It's like, mister Smith
Speaker 2: goes to Washington.
Speaker 3: Mister Smith is at a pun. Are you making a
Speaker 3: pun about the actor who played Matt Murdoch?
Speaker 2: Are we talking about Rex Smith, the one and only?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, where do we know Rex Smith from?
Speaker 3: We would know him from Street Hawk, which was like
Speaker 3: Night Rider but with motorcycles.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I loved Street Hawk. I watched every episode
Speaker 2: of Street Hawk.
Speaker 4: This is Jesse Muck, an ex motorcycle cop, injured in
Speaker 4: the line of duty, now.
Speaker 2: A police troubleshooter.
Speaker 4: He's been recruited for a top secret government mission to
Speaker 4: ride street Hook, an all terrain attack motorcycle designed fight
Speaker 4: urban crime, capable of incredible speeds up to three hundred miles,
Speaker 4: and all an immense firepower. Only one man, Federal agent
Speaker 4: Norman Tuttle, knows Jesse Mark's true identity, Man Machine street Hook.
Speaker 2: It was so much more versatile. I thought that motorcycle
Speaker 2: than Kit you could get into tighter spaces. Kit was
Speaker 2: it said the Simpsons joke where it's a jet boat
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, we'll take that canal. But there's
Speaker 2: always a Canal, who was.
Speaker 3: The actor who played his tech, the guy who was
Speaker 3: in the home base who helped Rex Smith do his thing.
Speaker 2: Was it Joe Rego Buto, that's it.
Speaker 3: Joe Rego Bhutto. He came up on another podcast that
Speaker 3: you and I do night, mister Walters.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: Wasn't that we didn't talk about him once? Joe Rigobutto.
Speaker 2: I don't know. It seems like we probably just talked
Speaker 2: about him at some point in our lives. Can't. He
Speaker 2: must have been in a superhero thing or two.
Speaker 3: The only thing I can ever think of with him
Speaker 3: was Murphy Brown and Street Hawk. That's pretty much it.
Speaker 3: He might have been in Star Trek. He seems like
Speaker 3: somebody who would be made up as a as an alien.
Speaker 2: And I certainly remember him hunting down Mark from Orc.
Speaker 2: Remember that so like alien bounty hunter and came to
Speaker 2: fuck with Mark's life and put them on the run
Speaker 2: and everything. You remember that, like Mark real his existence
Speaker 2: as an alien on Earth just to get away from
Speaker 2: Joe regelbutto Well.
Speaker 3: Let's not forget Mark once upon a time was a
Speaker 3: villain himself in Happy Days?
Speaker 2: Was he really a villain? He was just puppeteering the
Speaker 2: fawns around a little bit. He didn't mean no harm.
Speaker 3: They had a thumb off right. He had the stronger thumb,
Speaker 3: and the fawns was victorious.
Speaker 2: No orc and thumb will defeat a terran thumb I
Speaker 2: tells you.
Speaker 3: Cannot stand but no. I to be honest, I don't
Speaker 3: remember a lot about Street Hawk, but I'm sure that
Speaker 3: I was glad to it for the six months or
Speaker 3: whatever that it ran on television.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Rex Smith, he was the star of Streamhawk. I
Speaker 2: also remember him from that film version of the Pirates
Speaker 2: of Penzance with Linda Ronsten, which I thought he was
Speaker 2: actually really good.
Speaker 3: I think he actually had a lot of talent. I
Speaker 3: think as easy a target as Rex Smith might be
Speaker 3: because of some of his choices and jobs, I think
Speaker 3: the guy was really talented. I think he's sang really well.
Speaker 3: I think he's a decent actor. I think he's actually well,
Speaker 3: we'll talk about it, but he's in this. Then he
Speaker 3: does the thing.
Speaker 2: So it seemed like the nineteen eighties there seemed to
Speaker 2: be a proliferation of these super handsome, matinee idle soap
Speaker 2: opera type looking guys who couldn't get a fucking job.
Speaker 2: If they had come up in the fifties or the sixties,
Speaker 2: you know, they would have been huge stars. But for
Speaker 2: some reason, their looks are working against them at this point,
Speaker 2: and Rex Smith's falls four square into that. For me,
Speaker 2: I dismiss him, I think just because of the way
Speaker 2: he looks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree. It's an interesting point to make,
Speaker 3: and in his case, I think it's not fair, because
Speaker 3: I do think there certainly have been no shortage of
Speaker 3: actors that trade on their looks who may not be
Speaker 3: the most talented one of the bunch. But I think
Speaker 3: in his case, like I said, I think it's a
Speaker 3: little unfair. I think he's actually very talented, and maybe
Speaker 3: in a different time, a different place, maybe he would
Speaker 3: have been somebody more akin to I don't know, like
Speaker 3: a Brad Pitt or something.
Speaker 2: I feel bad for dismissing him because rewatching this, I
Speaker 2: expected it to be a cheese fast and I thought
Speaker 2: he was actually pretty goddamn good.
Speaker 3: I agree one hundred percent. This is probably one of
Speaker 3: my least favorite of the Incredible Hulk TV movies, and
Speaker 3: so I went into it with a lot of trepidation,
Speaker 3: but I totally agree. I thought he comports himself really well.
Speaker 3: Any you know, there's some interesting choices for the costume
Speaker 3: and the character, but he does the best with what
Speaker 3: he has, and if there's any shortcoming to this, it's
Speaker 3: not due to Rex Smith.
Speaker 2: The movie takes place effectively, and I don't know what
Speaker 2: are they even attempting to give us New York.
Speaker 3: It's they really don't. It's at one point they're in
Speaker 3: the subway and it's the cleanest subway that I've ever seen,
Speaker 3: which immediately in my mind marks it as a Canadian production.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is so Canada, right from the
Speaker 2: opening field where they're out there digging. My point being
Speaker 2: is I think just Rex Smith. Had he been in
Speaker 2: a better production of Daredevil, a more true to the
Speaker 2: comic book, more modern version of Daredevil, I think he
Speaker 2: would have been fine. I would have watched week after week.
Speaker 3: The frustrating part for me, I think is the obvious
Speaker 3: deviations they made from just the way the character looks
Speaker 3: like the potonic ideal of how Daredevil is supposed to
Speaker 3: be costumed. For me is the red costume with the
Speaker 3: little horns on top, the little d insignia on his chest,
Speaker 3: maybe the yellow and black one is maybe another one,
Speaker 3: but they go And also the fact that Matt Murdoch
Speaker 3: wears those sunglasses everywhere he goes. But it's as if
Speaker 3: they made a conscious effort to go against the grain
Speaker 3: of every one of those choices, right, so instead of
Speaker 3: a red or yellow and black suit, it's fully black,
Speaker 3: no horns on the head. He doesn't wear sunglasses or
Speaker 3: glasses through the whole thing, but he does. Having said that,
Speaker 3: he does a good job of conveying the character's blindness.
Speaker 3: But I wish they had hewed a little closer to
Speaker 3: the textbook idea of what Daredevil's supposed to look like.
Speaker 2: What did you think I could have gotten behind the
Speaker 2: ninja outfit, which is what they've put him in here
Speaker 2: if the mask didn't look like it rolled down in
Speaker 2: the front and therefore protruded. It looked like he was
Speaker 2: wearing a pair of blue blocker sunglasses under it, and
Speaker 2: in fact I thought he did have goggles under there.
Speaker 2: So when he finally took the mask off, I was like, wait,
Speaker 2: the mask just is bulky and weird like that.
Speaker 3: It was a strange look because it's almost as if
Speaker 3: he had the mask, but then he felt the need
Speaker 3: to add a piece that covered his eyes after the fact,
Speaker 3: so it's like bolted on to the head piece proper.
Speaker 2: It's like he used magic tape that's literally adhesive instead
Speaker 2: of actually doing the sewing.
Speaker 3: I got used to that pretty quickly after, you know,
Speaker 3: a few minutes of watching him do used to it.
Speaker 2: I never got used to that suit.
Speaker 3: It was well, because I mean, what am I gonna
Speaker 3: do just sit here and grumble about it. I wanted
Speaker 3: to try and lose myself in the movie a little bit,
Speaker 3: so I wasn't going to let that hinder my enjoyment.
Speaker 3: I took note of it. I said, well, that's there's
Speaker 3: no going back and fixing that, so let's just appreciate
Speaker 3: it for what it is.
Speaker 2: That suit ain't gonna break your stride, and now we
Speaker 2: gotta keep moving. So that's our day, our devil. He
Speaker 2: is the reason we're here. Our lead, however, is of
Speaker 2: course the returning and director of this particular piece, Bill
Speaker 2: Bixby as David Banner. You want to tell them why
Speaker 2: he's called David Banner instead of Bruce Banner, like we
Speaker 2: all know him as.
Speaker 3: It's my understanding that I think he was one of
Speaker 3: the producers didn't like alliterative names like like Lois Lane
Speaker 3: or Bruce Banner in this case, so the decision was
Speaker 3: made to make a David Bruce Banner. So it wasn't
Speaker 3: that bb thing. That's it. That's what I dug up. Now.
Speaker 2: The story that stan Lee told, of course, is that
Speaker 2: the producer who he spoke to told him Bruce is
Speaker 2: a gay name, and we're not going to have a
Speaker 2: gay named character on our show. He's going to be
Speaker 2: David Bruce Banner.
Speaker 1: There.
Speaker 2: You can have your Bruce, but we're not going to
Speaker 2: call him that.
Speaker 3: Oh I didn't come across that. That's terrible, isn't it. Absolutely?
Speaker 3: But it's nineteen eighty nine or whatever, so maybe it's
Speaker 3: not totally surprising. Things were a lot less enlightened. But
Speaker 3: I prefer to think of my sort of explanation over that.
Speaker 2: But that logic is the shark from John's gay. According
Speaker 2: to this producer, he is, we get Bill Bixby back.
Speaker 2: We all love Bill Bixby. He shouldn't have directed this.
Speaker 2: I think you're can agree with me on that.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of weird direct directing choices in this.
Speaker 3: It's a very cheaply it's a very cheap looking production,
Speaker 3: which is not necessarily a reflection of his directorial style.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I would say he's probably he'd probably reached
Speaker 3: the point in his career where he's you know what,
Speaker 3: if you want me to come back for your silly
Speaker 3: TV movie, I'll do it. But not only am I
Speaker 3: going to produce it, but I'm going to direct this fucker.
Speaker 3: There you go. That was the clout that he had,
Speaker 3: and I can appreciate that he wanted to make that
Speaker 3: a stipulation.
Speaker 2: Sure, I think he wanted to get paid as many
Speaker 2: times as he could on this product because he knew
Speaker 2: that the whole thing was going away. And while I
Speaker 2: admire his hustle and I do think he deserves more
Speaker 2: than he got from that series, overall, his direction is awful.
Speaker 2: The action sequences here are terrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of high speed shutters, the kind
Speaker 3: of effect that you would have on your average home
Speaker 3: video camcorder. I know I had that. There's a lot
Speaker 3: of strange canted angles and surreal sort of zooms into
Speaker 3: people's faces, and there's a we'll talk about Kingpin obviously,
Speaker 3: but there's this obsession with photographing Kingpin's face with the
Speaker 3: sunglasses and having some sort of unique reflection off of it.
Speaker 3: He's it's very showy the direct the directing is like
Speaker 3: very showy.
Speaker 2: Here, yeah, but supporting nothing. Steven Spielberg used to say,
Speaker 2: I used to think that I got the job because
Speaker 2: I knew where to put the camera. But it's because
Speaker 2: he knows how to tell a story. You can can't
Speaker 2: the angle all you want, but when the pacing is
Speaker 2: as glacial as it is here the chase of the
Speaker 2: Incredible Hulk, when he first shows up in the subway
Speaker 2: sequence which we'll get to, the police chase him. They
Speaker 2: are walking slowly, he's walking slowly. He comes around a
Speaker 2: corner in an alleyway and just meanders slowly to the
Speaker 2: end of the alleyway, and then is God. And then
Speaker 2: we get the same shot of the police doing it
Speaker 2: from a higher angle, and it's what is happened? What
Speaker 2: this is like a ninety minute movie? Why are we
Speaker 2: spending two to three minutes on this no chase?
Speaker 3: I think part of the problem is if you looked
Speaker 3: at just the story, there's about forty five minutes worth
Speaker 3: of actual storytelling happening here. The story, there's precious little
Speaker 3: story going on which I know we'll talk about, so
Speaker 3: I think a lot of that. Maybe frankly, he might
Speaker 3: be patting the duration of the movie a little bit
Speaker 3: by putting in these unmotivated shots of cops walking around leisurely.
Speaker 3: And but and also to be fair, there's this, from
Speaker 3: my opinion, there's precious little Hulk in this movie also,
Speaker 3: which we'll get to. So maybe the fact that he
Speaker 3: took a reduced acting role meant that he was more
Speaker 3: hands on as a director and thought that this was
Speaker 3: he was feathering his cap a little bit by doing that.
Speaker 2: Right, Typical series start here, David Banner in a field,
Speaker 2: digging a ditch.
Speaker 3: The buddiest, grossest ditch you can imagine.
Speaker 2: And what looks like the coldest day of the year,
Speaker 2: and just with Rubes and he's Here's what I learned
Speaker 2: from watching this sequence. It made me realize that entire
Speaker 2: television series, and by the way, I watched it pretty
Speaker 2: religiously when I was a kid, that entire series was
Speaker 2: based on frustration, because it's really about watching David Banner
Speaker 2: get kicked around for forty five minutes and then the
Speaker 2: Hulk comes out and settles everyone's hash.
Speaker 3: That might be part of the reason why I didn't
Speaker 3: love the show is because he's so every episode that
Speaker 3: they're coming up with new ways, effectively for Banner to
Speaker 3: be bullied into finally having no choice but to become
Speaker 3: the Hulk and set things right. But this was really egregious,
Speaker 3: this particular version of it, because this rube like they're
Speaker 3: getting out of this giant hole for lunch, and first
Speaker 3: thing the roub does is tug him back so that
Speaker 3: he can't get out of the hole quick enough. And
Speaker 3: then when he finally starts to clamber out of the hole,
Speaker 3: he kicks him back and he falls like full on
Speaker 3: into like water. It's the worst thing, and he's just
Speaker 3: he's having to force himself not to get angry, and
Speaker 3: it's making me angry.
Speaker 2: And that so now I realized that was too much
Speaker 2: frustration for my childhood brain, now that I remember it
Speaker 2: from the original series, because you do, like, nobody wants
Speaker 2: to watch your hero get kicked around, and that series
Speaker 2: was predicated on watching him get kicked around. What they
Speaker 2: decided and it's not a bad idea, is they turned
Speaker 2: the Hulk into the Fugitive. The television series The Fugive
Speaker 2: Bruce Banner David Banner is on the run from the authorities,
Speaker 2: and he's hiding undercover in small town, and there's always
Speaker 2: some trouble in town that he gets involved in, and
Speaker 2: then he tries to keep us cool and then he
Speaker 2: fucks everything up.
Speaker 3: What doesn't make sense to me in this case, the
Speaker 3: father balloon is so he has at he's on this farm,
Speaker 3: working this farm as a hired hand, and then after
Speaker 3: this altercation with this guy who's giving him a hard time,
Speaker 3: he decides to leave. He's gonna leave the farm. And
Speaker 3: they paint this idea that there's some sort of chemistry
Speaker 3: with the woman who runs the farm, and she has
Speaker 3: a conversation. She says to where are you gonna go?
Speaker 3: What are you gonna do? And he says, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: go to the city. You're telling me this guy who's
Speaker 3: so afraid of becoming this unstoppable behemoth and killing somebody,
Speaker 3: he's gonna leave the relative isolation of this farm to
Speaker 3: go to quote, the big city, where there's so many
Speaker 3: more opportunities for him to become angry and hulk out.
Speaker 3: It doesn't make that. That made no sense to me
Speaker 3: at all.
Speaker 2: It didn't make any sense now that you up, and
Speaker 2: I wrote down during that sequence, every answer he gives
Speaker 2: her is this cryptic answer. It I'm just talking about frustration.
Speaker 2: I wanted the woman to just say, would you just
Speaker 2: give me a straight answer? What's going on?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yes, got to keep moving on. No, he wouldn't.
Speaker 3: Yep, got a very much arm's length, and it's clear
Speaker 3: like the woman actually there's some interest there. So I
Speaker 3: don't know, but he's got to move on. Like you said,
Speaker 3: he's the fugitive. He's got the backpack on his shoulder,
Speaker 3: and the sad piano music starts up, and there he goes.
Speaker 3: He's hitchhiking his way to the big city.
Speaker 2: You bring up the theme song. Let's talk about the
Speaker 2: music before we go any further, shall we, Because the
Speaker 2: score here the music is by Lance Rubin. When everyone
Speaker 2: was complaining about synthesizers in movie and television soundtrack, this
Speaker 2: is the soundtrack that they were talking about. Ins that's
Speaker 2: twenty one jump Street, tinkly background, rolling sense. But as
Speaker 2: annoying as that is, they do work in the theme
Speaker 2: from the television series, which, come to find out, is
Speaker 2: called the Lonely Man theme.
Speaker 3: Pretty much on the nose there.
Speaker 2: It is the melancholic right next to our other obsession,
Speaker 2: Angela by Bob Over on Taxi. I think the theme
Speaker 2: from The Hulk is even sadder than that, And then
Speaker 2: to find out all these years that is by design
Speaker 2: it is the lonely man theme. And I'm thinking, why
Speaker 2: am I so lonely as an adult? Was it implanted
Speaker 2: in me as a child by the lonely man theme
Speaker 2: on the Hulk?
Speaker 3: But see that's the sad sort of piano bit. But
Speaker 3: the actual theme that the titles for The Incredible Hulk
Speaker 3: was very different though. It was like this sort of
Speaker 3: remember that where they show him sitting in the gamma chamber.
Speaker 2: Much more biotic man than the sort of plaintive I'm
Speaker 2: on the road by my lonesome.
Speaker 3: Right, But that theme got the blood pumping that got
Speaker 3: you excited to see what the Hulk was going to
Speaker 3: do that week, whereas the lonely Man is the typify
Speaker 3: by by Banner, I said, hitchhikings down some lonely road
Speaker 3: having burned another bridge because of the Hulk.
Speaker 2: It's so weird. They hype you up and then send
Speaker 2: you away sad.
Speaker 3: It's very sad, but it's very effective. It's iconic. Right.
Speaker 3: You hear those what like it's four notes, but once
Speaker 3: you hear them, you instantly know what they are. It
Speaker 3: was up there with the theme from mash as signifiers
Speaker 3: that it was time for me to go to bed
Speaker 3: and get ready for school the next day.
Speaker 2: Very sad. I was everyone in the seventies so depressed?
Speaker 2: And why were they passing that along with their children?
Speaker 3: That's our inheritance. Here we are, we're reaping what we sowed.
Speaker 2: Hey, listen, let's get to the city. What city is
Speaker 2: at HB? The city? Baby?
Speaker 3: Did they ever call? I guess it's supposed to be
Speaker 3: New York because that's where Daredevil is from. Do they
Speaker 3: ever actually say New York?
Speaker 2: Though? No, it's just the city the city. And that's
Speaker 2: because they're not going to be able to have any
Speaker 2: landmark incident because we're shooting in Vancouver over the course
Speaker 2: of one month.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very clean city, Oh my, I'll say that.
Speaker 2: And you know what, Matt Murdoch is really upwardly mobile,
Speaker 2: almost a yuppy. Would you call him a yuppy? I'd
Speaker 2: call him a yuppie.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's that's fair at that that time
Speaker 3: and place. Sure, he has a beautiful apartment or whatever
Speaker 3: he lives in. Yeah, the worst thing that we ever
Speaker 3: see is the flophouse that that Banner makes his way to.
Speaker 3: But even that is it doesn't look that determined. He's
Speaker 3: a code of paint. But it's not that bad.
Speaker 2: That is the friendliest flophouse manager I've ever seen. I
Speaker 2: know he's mister Exposition. He's still let us know that
Speaker 2: Wilson Fisk owns that giant steel tower that the the
Speaker 2: marvel of architecture that they keep telling us as a
Speaker 2: marvel of architecture. It just seems like the most random
Speaker 2: office building.
Speaker 3: But he is very friendly. He tries to engage David
Speaker 3: Banner in conversation, but he's having none of it. He
Speaker 3: just I'm here to sleep and that's it.
Speaker 2: Here take my money. I don't want to stay a month,
Speaker 2: they'll stay a week. Don't high pressure me. I'll kill
Speaker 2: you and everyone in the vicinity. We meet Matt Murdoch,
Speaker 2: who they go to paines to let us know he's
Speaker 2: blind without showing us is blind by a box drops
Speaker 2: in his closet and he blocks it kind which is weird.
Speaker 3: Why wouldn't he catch the box instead of like he
Speaker 3: does a karate chop to fling it out of the way.
Speaker 3: But why wouldn't he catch it?
Speaker 2: Why would the box fall?
Speaker 3: I don't know. That's a good question too.
Speaker 2: Really weird. And then off to the office Murdoch and Nelson.
Speaker 3: Right, No, that's another deviation from the norm. It's not Foggy,
Speaker 3: it's I couldn't even tell you the character's name. He's
Speaker 3: a former sergeant in the Army that works for Matt Murdoch.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's that's Al pettyman that The character's name is
Speaker 2: Al Pedtiman played by Richard Cummings Junior, and his partner
Speaker 2: is Chris de Kline played by Nancy Everhard. So it's
Speaker 2: Murdoch in Klein. Is this pathological need of every television
Speaker 2: adaptation before recent superhero dominance where they had to change
Speaker 2: literally fucking everything except who the main character is and
Speaker 2: basically his backstory.
Speaker 3: But might that have been a stipulation from Marvel Comics
Speaker 3: that obviously they weren't financially where they are now. But
Speaker 3: maybe they said, look, we'll let you use the character,
Speaker 3: but you can't it can't be too close to the
Speaker 3: comic because that might be confusing for our readers. So
Speaker 3: instead of having Daredevil BXYZ. Why don't you tweak it
Speaker 3: a little bit? They did the same thing with the Thoor.
Speaker 3: We already talked about that, so I think there must
Speaker 3: have been some agreement that because it doesn't make sense otherwise,
Speaker 3: they're changing it just for the sake of changing it.
Speaker 2: Nerdier listeners than us, please write to the show father
Speaker 2: Malone seventy one at gmail dot com if you know
Speaker 2: the backstory as to why they keep doing that or
Speaker 2: kept doing this bullshit. I'd love to know.
Speaker 3: It's important to take moment and just reflect on the
Speaker 3: fact that this was a time where the idea of
Speaker 3: a Marvel adaptation was very different than it's been for
Speaker 3: the last what fifteen years or so. This is bottom
Speaker 3: of the barrel budget stuff, as we already talked about.
Speaker 3: They're filming this thing in Vancouver to pass for New
Speaker 3: York on the cheapest of budgets, and this is the
Speaker 3: Incredible Hulk, this is one of their marquee characters. Think
Speaker 3: about that, how different it is now and now you
Speaker 3: have these big budget extravaganzas, or at least we used
Speaker 3: to from the Marvel movie wing. It's amazing to think
Speaker 3: that at one point this is the best they could do.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine a heist looking like this in a
Speaker 2: current Marvel film? Oh my god, I would agree with
Speaker 2: everyone that Marvel should hang it up. They think they're
Speaker 2: being super high tech here too, which is crazy. It
Speaker 2: is a group of criminals who all are all stationed
Speaker 2: within a jewelry store and at the last second they
Speaker 2: put on their masks. What why didn't you walk in
Speaker 2: with your masks? First of all? Then they slapped the
Speaker 2: bulkiest cameras around. They all have ear pieces in and
Speaker 2: they're being directed by a mysterious voice that is very familiar.
Speaker 2: I liked the sequence in a Isn't this a joke?
Speaker 3: I did too. It was a little bit slap dash,
Speaker 3: but I mean, it's no Ocean's eleven. That's what they
Speaker 3: were going for. Because there's all these obscure handoffs of
Speaker 3: the jewelry, and there's someone who's pretending to be a
Speaker 3: homeless woman who sets off a smoke bomb and a
Speaker 3: car and they put it in her cart and someone
Speaker 3: takes her from the car.
Speaker 2: Content Because you know what, this actually reminded me very
Speaker 2: much of a movie from around the same time that
Speaker 2: was Johnny Handsome, The Walter Hill flick Yeah, Yeah, York,
Speaker 2: where they have a very similar snatch and grab sequence,
Speaker 2: including a car as decoy outside with an explosive and
Speaker 2: the car. Wow, maybe they've ripped it off from this movie.
Speaker 2: They've created diversion. Outside, They've got a car smoking and
Speaker 2: a homeless woman a plant who is drawing everyone's attention
Speaker 2: to the car, right, and then the criminals exit the building,
Speaker 2: taking off their mask, running like the fucking Keystone Cops
Speaker 2: in every direction. If they had symbols in their hands,
Speaker 2: they would have been crashing them together on the way up.
Speaker 2: Why even have a diversion if you're going to behave
Speaker 2: that way. I laughed out loud at the manner in
Speaker 2: which they were exiting that bank or that jewelry store.
Speaker 3: It was pretty silly. And the fact that ultimately those
Speaker 3: two criminals end up escaping via the subway like they're
Speaker 3: giggling and like rubbing their hands, I mean, they're so
Speaker 3: obviously up to no good. It didn't make any sense
Speaker 3: to me that. I mean, I guess that's just the
Speaker 3: logic of the movie, but yeah, it's But the thing
Speaker 3: of it is, ultimately this heist means nothing in the
Speaker 3: context of the movie, because the whole movie is really
Speaker 3: about what happens after the heist when they're on this subway.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, this is where the action really begins because okay,
Speaker 2: first to the point that we meet our two thuggy
Speaker 2: characters here who are going to be the sort of
Speaker 2: catalyst for the rest of them. Okay, they are low
Speaker 2: level morons who work for Kingpin. They are not only
Speaker 2: part of that group that comes running helter skelter out
Speaker 2: of the thing, basically screaming, look at me, I robbed
Speaker 2: the place. They continue running down the street into the
Speaker 2: subway station, down the stairs, through the subway station, still
Speaker 2: basically calling attention to themselves, before they turn into the
Speaker 2: stock eighties fucking with you on the subway. Bernie Getz
Speaker 2: is in the air.
Speaker 3: Villains exactly exactly, and they happen unfortunately for everyone involved.
Speaker 3: They pick the same subway car as David Banner. I
Speaker 3: don't know why he's there. He's just riding the subway
Speaker 3: because he's looking moody.
Speaker 2: In the city. Is going to find some radiation or something, right.
Speaker 3: So they, in typical eighties Lackey fashion, they fixate on
Speaker 3: the one pretty woman on the subway car just someone
Speaker 3: who's minding their own business. This I don't. I couldn't
Speaker 3: even tell you the actress's name, to be honest, you
Speaker 3: probably have it.
Speaker 2: There I do. It's Marta Dubois.
Speaker 3: Was she in anything else that I would know her from?
Speaker 2: Because I could not stand her?
Speaker 3: She was pretty bad, I agree, But basically they typical
Speaker 3: TV villains. They fixate on this woman and they start
Speaker 3: harassing her awfully, like one of them basically wants to
Speaker 3: have his way with her right there in the car.
Speaker 2: My god, everything in the eighties in action involved an
Speaker 2: attempting rape. It's just so crazy as a fucking plot motivator.
Speaker 3: It's awful. But the whole time David Banner has this
Speaker 3: because she's essentially him for help, and David Banner has
Speaker 3: this the stock he looks like he has heartburn kind of.
Speaker 3: He has this anguish look on his face like I
Speaker 3: want to help you, but I'm really afraid what's going
Speaker 3: to happen? And I think he starts to get up
Speaker 3: to leave, and then he has a change of heart,
Speaker 3: and then of course then they just beat the crap
Speaker 3: out him.
Speaker 2: Father. Please, oh young Sky, welco at you.
Speaker 3: In a day we.
Speaker 2: Get that moment with David Bruce Banner and he's got
Speaker 2: to get involved. Leave her alone, don't touch that woman.
Speaker 2: And then they throw him so hard that he knocks
Speaker 2: the loose one of the seats in the subway. Yeah,
Speaker 2: sin set maybe.
Speaker 3: Let anyone who's ever been on the subway knows that
Speaker 3: those seats are bolted down within an inch of their lives.
Speaker 3: You couldn't move it unless you have to, I don't know,
Speaker 3: like a steam shovel or something. And they throw the
Speaker 3: guy right through it and it breaks like it's made
Speaker 3: of tissue paper. It's crazy.
Speaker 2: There's gonna be a out of that kind of tissue
Speaker 2: paper breakage throughout the rest of the movie. Here we go.
Speaker 2: He emerges the actual star of the film, lou for
Speaker 2: Regno as the Hulk. Let me tell you something, HP. Now,
Speaker 2: I have loved all of the recent Marvel Hulk movies.
Speaker 2: I even like the look of the Hulk in that
Speaker 2: stupid Angle movie. But so I've loved all of the
Speaker 2: iterations before, and now it's one of these situations where
Speaker 2: after watching all of the recent Planet of the Apes movies,
Speaker 2: it's kind of hard to go back and watch the
Speaker 2: Masked ones. I watched them because I grew up and
Speaker 2: I love them and whatever. But really, after watching real
Speaker 2: apes talking, seeing a guy in a mass mumblesome words
Speaker 2: is a little bit difficult. So I felt coming back
Speaker 2: and watching a loo for Regno just in Green was
Speaker 2: going to be a massive disappointment. How wrong I was.
Speaker 2: What a thrill to see him stand up and be
Speaker 2: the Hulk.
Speaker 3: No one does it better than Lou. He's fantastic, He
Speaker 3: has presence, you believe him as the Hulk. The weird
Speaker 3: thing was I always thought he kind of looked a
Speaker 3: little bit like Bill Bixby. I don't know, there was
Speaker 3: something was Maybe it's because they would have those transitional
Speaker 3: bits where they would have Bill Bixby have the green
Speaker 3: makeup on and then they kind of transitioned. But I
Speaker 3: always thought they were a good pairing in that way.
Speaker 3: But don't yeah.
Speaker 2: Into commercial they would always show that freeze frame the
Speaker 2: half face half of the faces Bill Bixby half of
Speaker 2: the face as loof for rig Now that might have
Speaker 2: been imprinting on your mind. That's the same guy.
Speaker 3: It's likely, but but he's he is the Hulk. I mean,
Speaker 3: he's not your you know Hulk from like four Ragnarok,
Speaker 3: who is you know, twelve feet tall and he can
Speaker 3: throw you through, you know, a building. But you know what,
Speaker 3: in the context of what's going on in this thing,
Speaker 3: it makes sense. You know, he's not he's he He
Speaker 3: is Bill Bickspeak, bigger, with a lot of muscles, and
Speaker 3: you know, he does his thing. He's great.
Speaker 2: He's the best special effect in the movie.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, which is the way. But that is a very
Speaker 3: low bar to get over, I will say, because this
Speaker 3: isn't really that's not the forte of this movie. But
Speaker 3: if there's any reason for me to watch this, lou
Speaker 3: for Igno as the Hulk is the reason, because everything
Speaker 3: goes to eleven when you see Forigno on screen.
Speaker 2: This is the moment where I felt the pain of
Speaker 2: their budget restraint, because it occurred to me that if
Speaker 2: you were to just simply build Sense a little smaller
Speaker 2: in scale and have loof for Igno stand on them,
Speaker 2: they would achieve the same effect that they're getting from
Speaker 2: the CGI Hulks. It's a good point if they just
Speaker 2: spent a little more time thinking about forced perspective before
Speaker 2: they went and shot any of their Hulk scenes, which
Speaker 2: are we're talking minutes out of a ninety five minute movie.
Speaker 2: The Hulk is on screen for maybe what seven eight minutes?
Speaker 3: There's this precious little Hulk in this So yeah, I
Speaker 3: think they actually forced perspective would have gone a long
Speaker 3: way to conveying his size. I think that's a really
Speaker 3: good point. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's the
Speaker 3: kid in me watching that TV show and always hoping
Speaker 3: that the Hulk would come out. But Luferegno will always
Speaker 3: be the Hulk.
Speaker 2: To me, and he fucks these guys up. He takes
Speaker 2: the one prick, the redheaded guy who, by the way,
Speaker 2: every time I saw him, I kept thinking, why isn't
Speaker 2: Matt Murdoch's hair red. He throws that guy through the
Speaker 2: doors of the train. He then slides across the floor,
Speaker 2: knocking people over like ten pins before slamming into the wall.
Speaker 2: That man is dead.
Speaker 3: If not dead, he would be severely disabled from you know,
Speaker 3: from all of that trauma to his body. But it
Speaker 3: has played a little bit for laughs, I.
Speaker 2: Think it is. But apparently they're not dead because that
Speaker 2: they are actually the fucking crux of this plot. Somehow,
Speaker 2: these two low level goons.
Speaker 3: And that was the surprising and really frustrating thing about
Speaker 3: this whole picture is it's not about Kingpin and his
Speaker 3: reign of cr in the city. It's not about him
Speaker 3: coming up with some elaborate caper. It's ultimately about the
Speaker 3: fact that these criminals harassed this poor woman and she
Speaker 3: is basically the mcguffin that sets the whole plot in
Speaker 3: motion because she can identify them. So now they're all
Speaker 3: after her. The Kingpin has confederates in the hospital where
Speaker 3: she is residing, like the head nurse is a Kingpin associate.
Speaker 3: There's the cops are on the take. There's all these
Speaker 3: attempts on her life, and only only ones who can
Speaker 3: save her are Daredevil and the Hulk basically. But that's
Speaker 3: what's crazy about it. It's all about this woman and
Speaker 3: how they can get to her and use her as
Speaker 3: bait basically, which is very thin.
Speaker 2: Hey keep using her for multiple purposes because first of all,
Speaker 2: they get to her and then convince her to change
Speaker 2: her story so that Bruce Banner, David Banner was the
Speaker 2: one who attacked her and the other guys were defending her, Okay,
Speaker 2: so they've got that going on. Bruce, by the way,
Speaker 2: is now in prison because he unhulked, and the police
Speaker 2: dragged him in and he doesn't remember where he was,
Speaker 2: so he's now on trial because of this woman's testimony
Speaker 2: changed against him. The Kingpin is trying to get these
Speaker 2: guys off and get bran Or convicted, but he's going
Speaker 2: to kill Banner in prison. Ultimately, what I'm trying to
Speaker 2: get out here is HP there's a lot of machinations
Speaker 2: when really the answer is kill those two goons.
Speaker 3: They are the source of all of this aggravation of
Speaker 3: Kingpin because if not for them, if they just escaped
Speaker 3: the crime scene in a very discreet and quiet manner,
Speaker 3: none of this would happen. This woman would have gotten
Speaker 3: to where she was going, Banner wouldn't have gotten involved,
Speaker 3: and there'd be no crisis.
Speaker 2: The thing is, there could still be a crisis because
Speaker 2: he's still in prison and Matt Murdock has to get
Speaker 2: him out and he has to investigate Wilson Fisk and
Speaker 2: that organization because those guys were part of the organization
Speaker 2: and Matt k is already investigating him. That's fine. The
Speaker 2: fact that they have to have this damsel in distress,
Speaker 2: this fucking sinkhole of charisma as damsel in distress by
Speaker 2: the way. She's actually the character's actually written really well
Speaker 2: because she gives as good as she gets throughout the
Speaker 2: entire thing. She gives as good as she gets as
Speaker 2: nothing more than a fucking object to be capture the
Speaker 2: flagged throughout the entire movie. I liked the character. It's
Speaker 2: just that the actress I could not stand.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the character actually not to say she
Speaker 3: has agency, which is always something I bring up. But
Speaker 3: she doesn't take any of this lying down. She is
Speaker 3: very vocal in her opposition to what's happening to her.
Speaker 3: But it also, honestly, this all paints the Kingpins organization
Speaker 3: in a very negative light because all they what they
Speaker 3: basically have to do initially is kill this woman, and
Speaker 3: they failed to do that, so then they kidnap the woman.
Speaker 3: All they have to do is kill the woman, okay,
Speaker 3: and they fail to do that.
Speaker 2: They're going to kill her, but thwarts that, so now
Speaker 2: they're going to kidnap her to lure Daredevil. Evidently the
Speaker 2: Daredevil has been such a problem in the city for
Speaker 2: Wilson Fisk that he is not he's being considered ineligible
Speaker 2: to join some worldwide criminal organization, and he just really
Speaker 2: wants to impress them. Now his plan is to capture
Speaker 2: and kill Daredevil. That should have been the plan from
Speaker 2: the beginning. I don't know why it suddenly comes after
Speaker 2: the nurse attack.
Speaker 3: It's weird, but that could have been. The whole point
Speaker 3: behind the heist is maybe they're trying to lure Daredevil
Speaker 3: out of wherever he is and this is a pretext.
Speaker 3: There's a million different things that could have done to
Speaker 3: make it about Fisk versus Daredevil, but it just seems
Speaker 3: I don't know. It seems lazy to me, and very
Speaker 3: much like Kingpin is making up this plot as he
Speaker 3: goes along someone who's supposed to be like a mastermind,
Speaker 3: a criminal mastermind. I don't see a lot of that
Speaker 3: list picture.
Speaker 2: Speaking of deviations from characters, Okay, let's talk Wilson Fisk,
Speaker 2: because that the fact that Wilson Fisk his first reaction
Speaker 2: isn't those bumbling fucking idiots. They nearly ruined everything, and
Speaker 2: they're continuing to ruin everything. Make them disappear. Nobody read
Speaker 2: a comic. They read a breakdown of a comic, is
Speaker 2: what that says to me. Okay, so Kingpin, we've had
Speaker 2: a few Kingpins over the ears. We've had pretty good
Speaker 2: kingpins over the ears. Is this a good kingpin? It's
Speaker 2: John Reece Davies. Everyone you remember Salah from Indiana Jones
Speaker 2: and Gimli is a Gimli? Yes, from the Lord and
Speaker 2: Lord of the Rings. I act, Well, he's Wilson Fisk
Speaker 2: the kingpin here. That sounds exciting, right, We're gonna get
Speaker 2: him in the white suit. No? Is he bald?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Does he have a beard yet?
Speaker 3: And he's a big fan of the Oakley sunglasses that
Speaker 3: were super popular at that time of the eighties, like
Speaker 3: every like hose cansako, like baseball players used to wear
Speaker 3: those like blades, those ones I'm talking about where you
Speaker 3: see them there? That's and I said, Bixby loves shooting
Speaker 3: him his sunglasses so that they reflect something like very interesting,
Speaker 3: like a bank of monitors that he's looking at.
Speaker 2: Or we're getting the techno kingpin here. He basically he
Speaker 2: has a bank of monitors. He during the criminal heist
Speaker 2: at the beginning, he's watching through all the cameras that
Speaker 2: they've set up and he's directing their every single move,
Speaker 2: total control. Freak.
Speaker 3: Well, he's a voy year, Let's be honest.
Speaker 2: He's a voy year in this right, and like you said,
Speaker 2: because he's always sitting in front of that bank of monitors,
Speaker 2: there's constant close ups of the fucking sunglasses with that
Speaker 2: bank of monitors. It's it's the most uninteresting shot that
Speaker 2: we get way too much of.
Speaker 3: It's a bummer because we all love John Reyes Davies.
Speaker 3: How could you not the man just I'm going to
Speaker 3: use another metaphor, he's a poor man's Brian blessed right
Speaker 3: basically yeah, but.
Speaker 2: And that'gine Brant blessed as the as Wilson Fisk shaved
Speaker 2: head fat. You can eat as much as you want,
Speaker 2: Brian for this role, go to town?
Speaker 3: What would that have sounded like?
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna do an impression.
Speaker 3: Come on, you got it all right, I won't make you.
Speaker 3: But I was hoping for I knew just because my
Speaker 3: dim recollection that it wasn't very a very satisfying portrayal. Uh.
Speaker 3: And I wanted to like it.
Speaker 2: The scare devil be like that.
Speaker 3: I really wanted to because I love Rhees Davies so much.
Speaker 3: But it's not. It's not really Kingpin. It just doesn't.
Speaker 3: He's not street wise like Kingpin should be. He's a
Speaker 3: little too techno obsessed. He's not as hands on as
Speaker 3: I would expect because Kingpin is a tough dude. Kingpin
Speaker 3: can fuck you up. He can beat the shit out
Speaker 3: of you. I don't get the sense that this king
Speaker 3: I think this Kingpin hides behind those monitors in those sunglinves.
Speaker 3: That's basically my impression.
Speaker 2: At what a missed opportunity in not doing force perspective
Speaker 2: for the Hull, because they could have done the exact
Speaker 2: same thing for Kingpin, reused the same sets, and then
Speaker 2: we could have at least had a couple of punches
Speaker 2: thrown between Fisk and fucking Hulk at the end because.
Speaker 3: He basically no spoiler here if you're going to watch this,
Speaker 3: but he essentially escapes at the end, Kingpin and his
Speaker 3: second in command.
Speaker 2: In a flying boat.
Speaker 3: It's the worst special effect of the whole movie, quote unquote,
Speaker 3: And that's saying something. It's this sort of.
Speaker 2: Movie filled with bad special effects. They save the worst
Speaker 2: for last for last.
Speaker 3: But I guess that's just they were hoping to make
Speaker 3: this into its own series, And why wouldn't you have
Speaker 3: a Kingpin escape? I guess that would have been more satisfying.
Speaker 2: My favorite character in the entire episode Deputy Chief Albert G. Tendelli,
Speaker 2: played by Joseph Muscalo, the one good cop in the
Speaker 2: city who's come to fucking clean up shit. He knows
Speaker 2: Fisk is behind this, and he's gonna fucking take him out.
Speaker 3: What did I what I have known him from? He
Speaker 3: looked very familiar, but I didn't look him up.
Speaker 2: He's that prick Peterson in Johns Too.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Ellen, Maybe that's why when I first saw
Speaker 3: him in this I had this immediate reaction of I
Speaker 3: thought he was going to be a corrupt cop. But
Speaker 3: he's actually the one good cop of the bunch, So
Speaker 3: maybe that's maybe I just had a bad association from
Speaker 3: Jaws two.
Speaker 2: He's like a really serious Joseph Bologna kind of Yeah.
Speaker 2: I loved that character. I was so happy he was there.
Speaker 2: It's the Commissioner Gordon type that just does it for me,
Speaker 2: particularly in our fucking current position in the world today.
Speaker 2: I like to see people with decency and fucking morals,
Speaker 2: and it was good to see the cop who stood
Speaker 2: up for what was right.
Speaker 3: He was the guy behind the guy. He was a
Speaker 3: daredevil's confidant, right, he's the one who's feeding him information.
Speaker 3: I don't think they had cell phones. I think I
Speaker 3: don't remember the apparatus by which he gets ahold of him.
Speaker 2: It didn't show us that he says, he always knew
Speaker 2: how to get in touch with me, and then they
Speaker 2: just cut to them meeting. But at the end they
Speaker 2: finally give it to us. You hear it. There's he
Speaker 2: just has like a CB.
Speaker 3: Breaker breaker one nine.
Speaker 2: Hey, this series, you got the Daredevil out there.
Speaker 3: He was I agree, he was. It was nice to
Speaker 3: see a character like that in this and it gives
Speaker 3: you a little something more to root for as a viewer,
Speaker 3: you know, because the whole, like the whole notion is this.
Speaker 3: It's basically it's like the first Batman movie. This is
Speaker 3: a corrupt town. The king Pin owns and everything, and
Speaker 3: he runs everything, and he's got cops on the take
Speaker 3: and these you know, between this cop and Daredevil Matt Murdoch,
Speaker 3: they're the only ones fighting the good fight for the
Speaker 3: citizens of New York that I'm doing air quotes with.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, now that the plan has changed, the
Speaker 2: assassination attempt has failed, They've now they've got to go
Speaker 2: kidnap her right, And this is my favorite sequence in
Speaker 2: the movie, where the woman has now reconsidered she now
Speaker 2: knows she needs protection. She calls Matt Murdoch at his office,
Speaker 2: tell us him I'm in the secure wing. Could you
Speaker 2: come meet me. Yes, I'm on my way, and then
Speaker 2: hangs up. And then she says to the cop in
Speaker 2: the room who's watching her, I'll need to be alone
Speaker 2: with him, and the cop leaves. Why are you sending
Speaker 2: your cop away? And what kind of a secure room
Speaker 2: has a giant glass wall door that you can access
Speaker 2: from the exterior.
Speaker 3: Well, weren't they implying that cop was also one of
Speaker 3: Kingpin's guys too.
Speaker 2: The cop there's a good cop, a female cop with her,
Speaker 2: and then she leaves another cop in charge, and then
Speaker 2: that's the cop basically spirits her away. But the female
Speaker 2: cop should have said, yeah, you can have all the
Speaker 2: time you want with him when he arrives. I'll be
Speaker 2: right here till then. And when he arrives, I'll be
Speaker 2: on the other side of that door watching Not very
Speaker 2: secure at all, I'll need to be alone with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah when he arrives, dummy.
Speaker 3: But alas Daredevil arrives a little too late, and she's
Speaker 3: to your point, she's been spirited away by Kingpin's confederates.
Speaker 3: I think at this point is when Murdoch tries to
Speaker 3: browbeat David Banner into taking the stand to basically to
Speaker 3: tell what really happened, so that he can be that
Speaker 3: one step closer to putting Kingpin away. And of course
Speaker 3: Banner thinks this is a terrible idea because he's so
Speaker 3: afraid that he's going to hulk out, which then leads
Speaker 3: to the only time he's ever actually on trial, which
Speaker 3: is a dream sequence that he has where he's on trial,
Speaker 3: and it's another surrealistic directorial toward a force, like everybody's
Speaker 3: like you're out of order, He's out of it. It's
Speaker 3: like injustice for all kind of and all of this
Speaker 3: stress makes Banner do his thing. The contact lenses come out,
Speaker 3: He hulks out, the contact lenses come out, He upends
Speaker 3: the jury box, He throws a lot of people through
Speaker 3: a lot of doors and windows.
Speaker 2: My favorite part of this sequence is the defense attorney. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're reshuffling his papers over and over again until the
Speaker 2: fucking Hulk descends on him, and then the Hulk grabs
Speaker 2: him by the throat and like leans in and I
Speaker 2: was waiting for his head to burst. I wish he
Speaker 2: When they cut to Banner waking up, we had gotten
Speaker 2: this like a splosh kind of sploshy sound effect.
Speaker 3: Because that is like he's on the cusp of killing
Speaker 3: this guy with his bare hands by choking him. But
Speaker 3: it is. But I did think it was rather amusing
Speaker 3: that through this whole sequence, the Hulk is just you know,
Speaker 3: waylaying everything in this courtroom. But the defense attorney just
Speaker 3: keeps opening and closing his briefcase or his like note
Speaker 3: like he has like a little like brief.
Speaker 2: Notes together and then put them in the briefcase. It's like, man,
Speaker 2: those will be there when you get back run.
Speaker 3: I'd be jumping out the window to get away from
Speaker 3: this crazy green goliath, but he just can't. These papers
Speaker 3: are very important.
Speaker 2: Apparently the Kingpin is trying to kill Bruce David Banner
Speaker 2: in prison in the laziest manner possible. This horrible sequence
Speaker 2: where they're passing this I don't know. It looks like
Speaker 2: a sharpened tire iron or something the least.
Speaker 3: Like a spik. It's a spike that's shaped like the
Speaker 3: number seven with a sharp end on the long part.
Speaker 2: As dumb as that is, they've got this fucking guy
Speaker 2: with a mop bucket slowly moving it down. They sell
Speaker 2: Block doing this like he's just singing, but he's like,
Speaker 2: we don't have the rights to any song because so
Speaker 2: could you just sing something? And so it's a lot
Speaker 2: of it's I could not wait for the scene, and
Speaker 2: I wanted them to kill Banner meant that the scene
Speaker 2: could end.
Speaker 3: That was the actual moment where he's almost killed, I admit,
Speaker 3: and actually, for a second it took my breath away
Speaker 3: because what's happened is the banners on the top bunk.
Speaker 3: On the lower bunk is this sort of nebishy looking
Speaker 3: prisoner who's taken ownership of this spike to kill Banner,
Speaker 3: And what he's going to do effectively is basically shove
Speaker 3: the spike through the bottom of Banner's bed and stab him.
Speaker 3: And just as he pushes the spike through, a guard
Speaker 3: comes to retrieve Banner to talk to this the one
Speaker 3: good cop. But it's I don't know, it's edited very
Speaker 3: well and it almost looks, wow, he could have actually
Speaker 3: stabbed this guy like it looked. It was a lot
Speaker 3: more realistic than I was expecting the sequence.
Speaker 2: It was a good gang. But all I kept thinking was,
Speaker 2: had that little nebishy guy actually pierced Banner's flash and
Speaker 2: I don't know, struck into it one of his shoulder
Speaker 2: blades or something that he wouldn't have gotten far, and
Speaker 2: then Banner would have hulked out and fucking destroyed that man.
Speaker 3: Oh easily. That would have been the last thing that
Speaker 3: guy ever did.
Speaker 2: All right, help breaks out of prison where they don't
Speaker 2: show the destruction, but then we get the after effect
Speaker 2: with all the bars bent, which just made me think
Speaker 2: that they took one of the doors if they had
Speaker 2: like in stock and bent all the bars in and
Speaker 2: then brought it to the prison and just installed it
Speaker 2: like there it is. Look he escaped.
Speaker 3: That's a lot of guys going, oh, look at all
Speaker 3: this damage. They're leaving it up to the viewer to
Speaker 3: imagine how he actually escaped, And all we're seeing, like
Speaker 3: you said, is the twisted bars and the mangled door based.
Speaker 2: The same radio. Baby, it's television. He's breaking those bars
Speaker 2: over there. Do you see that?
Speaker 3: I do. But at this point he I don't remember exactly,
Speaker 3: but he basically gets back in touch with Daredevil, because
Speaker 3: now they've kidnapped this woman. They're using her as bait
Speaker 3: to have Daredevil come and they Daredevil and Bruce or David,
Speaker 3: I should say, collude to figure out how they're going
Speaker 3: to hatch this plan, which I think basically involves Daredevil
Speaker 3: running in and Bruce hanging back.
Speaker 2: Just in case the plan is at all's let's go
Speaker 2: there and then I don't know, you wait here. Maybe
Speaker 2: I'll run in there. Okay, I'm gonna get this kicked
Speaker 2: out of me. But are you doing anything back there? Bruce?
Speaker 2: You want to maybe hulk out a little.
Speaker 3: But unbeknownst to Daredevil, Kingpin has rigged this woman in
Speaker 3: this room that she's being held in with like screechers
Speaker 3: and bright lights and thirty henchmen that are just waiting
Speaker 3: to beat him senseless.
Speaker 2: Basically right now, he's going to have video proof to
Speaker 2: prove to all of the Triads or the Order or
Speaker 2: the I don't know what.
Speaker 3: What was the Maggia. The Maggia m a Ggia was
Speaker 3: one of the criminal organizations.
Speaker 2: My god, so silly. Yeah, Daredevil walks right into this trap,
Speaker 2: gets his ass handed to him. Hulk does nothing until
Speaker 2: the last they've absconded with the girl. I thought this
Speaker 2: was going to be the finale. I think we were
Speaker 2: three quarters the way through the movie at this point.
Speaker 2: First of all, this is the quickest change back to
Speaker 2: Banner of all time, Like if he could, if he
Speaker 2: can come back to sanity this quickly, then I don't
Speaker 2: think he has that big of a problem. But anyway,
Speaker 2: as he transforms back into Banner, you get the idea
Speaker 2: that Matt Murdoch is feeling the Hulk's face turn into
Speaker 2: Banner's face, which is a cool concept and I like that.
Speaker 2: In fact, I wrote down I really like this movie
Speaker 2: at this point.
Speaker 3: Because earlier, when he's having a conversation with Banner, he
Speaker 3: says to him, can I take your picture? And Banner's like,
Speaker 3: what are you talking about? And that's when he puts
Speaker 3: his hands on his face to recognize what he looks like.
Speaker 3: So that leads to that scene you're describing, where he
Speaker 3: can wish the ul.
Speaker 2: I wish Banner had said, don't call it that. You
Speaker 2: were cited once. What a photograph is? That's not You're
Speaker 2: just touching my face. Don't call it a photograph anyway.
Speaker 3: So now a devil's been taken down a few pegs.
Speaker 3: He's lost faith in himself because he's this is the
Speaker 3: first time he's been soundly defeated, and he doesn't he's
Speaker 3: afraid of what might happen. So it's up to David
Speaker 3: to convince him a woman's life is in danger. Here buster, Oh.
Speaker 2: How the browbeaten roles have changed.
Speaker 3: But meanwhile, by the way, David is still an escapee
Speaker 3: from prison. But never do we hear or see any
Speaker 3: dragnets being underway to bring this fugitive, this dangerous individual
Speaker 3: back to prison. It it's almost if they just kind
Speaker 3: of shrugged and said, all right, that's fine.
Speaker 2: Would in the first place, they look be the only
Speaker 2: contact the man has in the city, his attorney, the
Speaker 2: one who has been so vociferously trying to get him
Speaker 2: out of prison.
Speaker 3: They just, like I said, they can't be bothered with it.
Speaker 3: Let's move let's move this movie along.
Speaker 2: That's right. They gotta get there. He's got to get
Speaker 2: out of that beard, thank god.
Speaker 3: Finally, Yeah, because the whole up to this point, he's
Speaker 3: had this the worst beard ever. And there's no it's
Speaker 3: not an effective disguise because you look at him, his
Speaker 3: hair is still the same. He looks the same. He's
Speaker 3: Bruce Banner, he's David Banner with a beard, but there's
Speaker 3: no mistaking who he is at that point. But yes,
Speaker 3: he does shave the beard at that point to escape
Speaker 3: the By.
Speaker 2: Then we've had a couple of Hulk outs and no
Speaker 2: Hulk beard. Total missed opportunity.
Speaker 3: That's a very good point. What would the Hulk look
Speaker 3: like with a beard?
Speaker 2: And they made his hair green when they gave him
Speaker 2: that jeth throw wig. The only unfortunate part of The
Speaker 2: Incredible Hulk is the Hulk's jethrow wig. But imagine that
Speaker 2: hair also spouting throw his face just as crazily like
Speaker 2: a parody of zz top.
Speaker 3: That is a great description of his hair. I never
Speaker 3: thought of it like that, but you're right. That was
Speaker 3: one of the One of the funny parts of The
Speaker 3: Incredible Hulk Returns is Thor is fascinated by the Hulk,
Speaker 3: and he keeps he doesn't call him the Hulk, he
Speaker 3: keeps calling him the green Troll. Come on, troll, let's
Speaker 3: get him. I thought that was really funny that you know,
Speaker 3: that's his frame of reference for what the Hulk is.
Speaker 3: He's of course, he's a green troll. That's what Boor knows,
Speaker 3: you know. But I thought it was a good look.
Speaker 3: You're right, the wig is a little wacky, but I
Speaker 3: thought it worked. But the beard may be a missed opportunity.
Speaker 2: We got to get this girl. We got to get her,
Speaker 2: Ellie Mendez. You got to save her. Why I don't
Speaker 2: know anymore.
Speaker 3: They've brought her back to Fisk's tower. Now she's being
Speaker 3: kept in this beautiful room with a huge bed with
Speaker 3: satin sheets.
Speaker 2: Oh my, Now, we haven't talked about this fucking guy yet. Oh.
Speaker 3: He is the second in command of the Kingpin who
Speaker 3: has like a soft spot for Ellie Mendez.
Speaker 2: Edgar is that his name? I believe. So talk about
Speaker 2: missed opportunities. So what we end up getting here is
Speaker 2: Finsk basically says kill the woman to his right hand Edgar.
Speaker 2: Edgar lives with the Kingpin, by the way, because when
Speaker 2: he comes out one night and gets a lesson from
Speaker 2: the Kingpin, he's in like his bathrobe, Like, what's going
Speaker 2: on out here? Oh, go back to sleep, Go back
Speaker 2: to sleep. What is their relationship? First of all, so
Speaker 2: Fisk orders the woman dead, says you go kill her,
Speaker 2: and he's like, Noah, I dig this girl, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: spirit her away, and like he puts her in a
Speaker 2: secure location. He tells Fist that she's dead, but she's
Speaker 2: not dead. So we've got this thing where he's trying
Speaker 2: to woo this woman who wants to fucking kill him
Speaker 2: because she's being held prisoner. It's the weirdest sort of scenario,
Speaker 2: and the missed opportunity is why not just make her Vanessa?
Speaker 2: How about this woman ends up being the woman who
Speaker 2: falls in love with Wilson Fisk at the end. What
Speaker 2: if she was like, she's the case, She's the whole case.
Speaker 2: She can break the whole thing open, and at the
Speaker 2: end she's sorry, guys, he's really I really like this guy.
Speaker 3: Bye. There's no arc to this poor woman's sort of
Speaker 3: journey that she doesn't even have clothes for the majority
Speaker 3: of this picture, she's always she's in the hospital. She's
Speaker 3: in like a neglige, and I think that's what she's
Speaker 3: wearing for the rest of the movie.
Speaker 2: Basically, it's a nightgown.
Speaker 3: It's not a nightgown, Okay, A neglige implies it's.
Speaker 2: Your mommy were in the nineteen eighties. It's not Playboy
Speaker 2: Bunny of the week.
Speaker 3: It's not. But my point is like they couldn't at
Speaker 3: least give this poor woman some clothes while she's being
Speaker 3: put in held under duress. She's and then she's got
Speaker 3: henchman here, henchman there, hitting on her like she's the
Speaker 3: most desirable woman that they've ever seen. It's bizarre.
Speaker 2: She's not that attractive, including that fucking redheaded prick who
Speaker 2: just shows back up again to be a menace.
Speaker 3: Oh, the guy who should have been dead, Yeah, the.
Speaker 2: One was he was through subway car doors. Yeah, that guy.
Speaker 3: I think they gave him a little bit of makeup
Speaker 3: around his nose to make it look like he had
Speaker 3: a black eye.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty much. It like a white bandage on
Speaker 2: his forehead, like just a little taped on there. Oh okay,
Speaker 2: sure he recovered.
Speaker 3: So he pops up again like the prototypical bad penny,
Speaker 3: and then he is he basically is forcing Edgar to
Speaker 3: suffocate her with a pillow. It's all very weird.
Speaker 2: He says, catch her screams, make sure you catch all
Speaker 2: of them, And that was a great line, and that
Speaker 2: was actually really chilling.
Speaker 3: Every time someone gives the order to kill this woman,
Speaker 3: it's got to go through miles and miles of red
Speaker 3: tape until it actually can finally happen.
Speaker 2: It's weird, and the last person they picked to deliver
Speaker 2: the message is either Daredevil or the Hulk.
Speaker 3: So while this is all happening, David is finally or
Speaker 3: David Banner has finally convinced Daredevil that hey, you owe
Speaker 3: to this woman. You've got to do it. I think
Speaker 3: they somehow convey that because all of a sudden, Daredevil
Speaker 3: has the strength to exercise again, Like he has those
Speaker 3: Olympic rings, which is supposed to indicate how strong he is,
Speaker 3: and the last shot of him lifting himself up on
Speaker 3: the rings, giving you this idea that he's back.
Speaker 2: And actually show that your mind filled that in. He
Speaker 2: looks up at the rings and then they show two
Speaker 2: hands grab the rings.
Speaker 3: You're right, well, maybe the direction was pretty good, after all,
Speaker 3: I filled in those those gaps myself.
Speaker 2: I guess the direction was that bad that you had
Speaker 2: to fill in something as simple as what should have
Speaker 2: been him struggling on those rings.
Speaker 3: So now their plan is that they're going to infiltrate
Speaker 3: this tower, the Fisk Tower, which I think is like
Speaker 3: the tallest building in the city. I don't know how
Speaker 3: they're going to do this where it's Daredevil can do
Speaker 3: it because he's Daredevil. But I mean, David Banner is
Speaker 3: just the guy unless he's the Hulk.
Speaker 2: That's the thing, Like, wouldn't you just go here, David?
Speaker 2: We're about to go in here. Do you mind if
Speaker 2: I just stab you for a second? Hold on, ah,
Speaker 2: there's the Hulk. Let's go Hulk.
Speaker 3: Well, at one point, when I think it's when they
Speaker 3: take out the redheaded creep, he's got a gun and
Speaker 3: instead of if I were David Banner, I would have
Speaker 3: picked up that gun and said, right, I get a
Speaker 3: weapon now. But he kicks it away like they do
Speaker 3: and bad police procedurals. I'm like, what are you kicking
Speaker 3: that away for? Someone's going to pick that up and
Speaker 3: use it against you.
Speaker 2: He's not worried. He can just turn into the Hulk.
Speaker 3: But that he can't turn into the Hulk faster than
Speaker 3: a speeding bullet can reach him.
Speaker 2: Though. It doesn't make any sense what he's even doing
Speaker 2: in there. It's crazy. It's like how they got as
Speaker 2: far as by the way, the big organization, the criminal
Speaker 2: Mastermind organization is here. They're in Fisk Tower, this is
Speaker 2: the day of the big presentation to let them that
Speaker 2: they've killed Daredevil and they're totally ready to join that league.
Speaker 3: I forgot about that part, yeah, because that's the whole
Speaker 3: deal is he wants to show how strong he is,
Speaker 3: so he has them all.
Speaker 2: Would Fisk security be there, but every group who is
Speaker 2: in that meeting of their security would be there. But
Speaker 2: somehow Banner and Murdoch just waltz in through the building
Speaker 2: and just start heading up the stairs. Fisk is showing
Speaker 2: the presentation. Look, here's a video of him being beaten
Speaker 2: on the ground, and it's a The organization is peopled
Speaker 2: entirely with old white men in suits, right, so he's look,
Speaker 2: Daredevil is dead. And then of course Daredevil jumps through
Speaker 2: the screen, which is just a thin sheet of styrofoam.
Speaker 2: Their movie screen was a thin sheet of styrofoam, which
Speaker 2: they have an air cannon behind him shooting other pieces
Speaker 2: of styrofoam to make it more dynamic, except the camera
Speaker 2: is placed so ineptly that it just looks ridiculous. Anyway,
Speaker 2: the best part of that is he jumps in and
Speaker 2: that gaggle of older white men in suits go running
Speaker 2: out and It's like almost a repeat of the Keystone
Speaker 2: cop sequence from the beginning. These white guys in suits,
Speaker 2: just running crazily in all directions. I almost fell out
Speaker 2: of the chair laughing.
Speaker 3: You would figure that they would have their own security
Speaker 3: if they're not gonna they're criminals, they don't trust anybody,
Speaker 3: so why wouldn't they at least have one or two
Speaker 3: guys with them saying, look, I know you say this
Speaker 3: is a secure tower w FISK, but I'm not taking
Speaker 3: any chances.
Speaker 2: I want my.
Speaker 3: Best guys with me with guns. But there's none of that.
Speaker 3: These guys all feel perfectly safe in this building.
Speaker 2: And all of the none of our villains have any personality.
Speaker 2: They're all dressed exactly the same. They're all just in
Speaker 2: black suits with black ties, and they pose is zero
Speaker 2: thread at all to anybody, except for that one scene
Speaker 2: where they had to have Daredevil beaten up.
Speaker 3: But that's a big reason why I think having Daredevil
Speaker 3: dressed all in black for his outfit. It's terrible because
Speaker 3: the movie itself is dark to begin with. It's shot
Speaker 3: on a video it looks like crap. It's hard to
Speaker 3: see what's going on. The action scenes are shot poorly,
Speaker 3: like you said earlier, So that's why you'd want to
Speaker 3: have your hero, your superhero, dressed in something a little
Speaker 3: more bright and garish. So they pop, they stick out,
Speaker 3: and you really they add a layer of excitement to
Speaker 3: the fight scenes. You get none of that here because
Speaker 3: it's all just black on black.
Speaker 2: It's just a confusion of black suited people, except one
Speaker 2: of them looks like they're wearing blue blockers underneath their
Speaker 2: mask that's pulled down.
Speaker 3: The direction is a real bummer for me because I
Speaker 3: guess I was really pulling for Bill Bixby, knowing that
Speaker 3: this was the first time that he had the reins
Speaker 3: of one of these productions. So I wanted to believe
Speaker 3: that having been a working actor in Hollywood since forever,
Speaker 3: the sixties or whatever, that he would have learned a
Speaker 3: thing or two and maybe there was some untapped talent there,
Speaker 3: because I don't know. Do you know if he directed
Speaker 3: anything else prior to.
Speaker 2: This Room two two too? The magician Mannix Barbary Coast
Speaker 2: Kate McShane. He's a very workmanlike television director Charlie's Angels,
Speaker 2: The Oregon Trail. Did he die of dysentery?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know why this was. He has plenty
Speaker 3: of credits. You would figure that he would have learned
Speaker 3: a thing or two. He would have maybe had some
Speaker 3: interesting concepts, things to apply to as a director, But
Speaker 3: I see none of that here, and it was really
Speaker 3: it was a bummer because I wanted it to be
Speaker 3: well directed, if nothing directly.
Speaker 2: It's thirty episodes of Blossom.
Speaker 3: Wow. I thought he passed a lot sooner than that.
Speaker 3: But I guess was it ninety four I think is
Speaker 3: when he died ninety three ninety three Love American Style?
Speaker 2: Or was he the last film was The Woman Who
Speaker 2: Loved Elvis starring Tom Arnold and Roseanne.
Speaker 3: That's the last thing he directed.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, Yeah, that's really sad.
Speaker 3: That is really sad. But at the same time, I
Speaker 3: think there's nothing wrong with somebody being a working TV director.
Speaker 3: But it's not like he could necessarily pick and choose
Speaker 3: everything that he wanted to do. I guess there's merit
Speaker 3: to that. I just wish in this case. I can't
Speaker 3: speak for his other other things that he's directed, but
Speaker 3: in this case it was so inept and just so
Speaker 3: disheart to see because it should have He's David Banner,
Speaker 3: the guy should have understood what makes a good Hulk teleplay.
Speaker 2: Work, Like, how about you have the Hulk in your
Speaker 2: finale at the end of this movie.
Speaker 3: I keep talking about it, but not that the incredible
Speaker 3: Hulk returns was this magnum opus. But there was more action.
Speaker 3: It was more fun to watch, and it wasn't as
Speaker 3: I don't know, it wasn't as nonsensical as this was.
Speaker 3: I think I might be misremembering. I'll revisit it as well.
Speaker 3: I could be wrong. I could be just thinking about
Speaker 3: it with rose colored glasses. But this was a bummer.
Speaker 3: The bottom line is the direction of this was kind
Speaker 3: of a bummer. I wanted it to be better.
Speaker 2: And just a cherry on the cake. We mentioned it.
Speaker 2: Kingpin escapes with his pal who defied him and tried
Speaker 2: to keep that girl in a boat with an air propeller.
Speaker 2: Boat is what it is. That is supposed to be
Speaker 2: a hovercraft of some kind, So it's the sequence. First
Speaker 2: of all, look the visual effect we eventually get of
Speaker 2: the model of a boat flying through the city. That's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: But much worse is the boat that they have suspended
Speaker 2: or not on set, where they just keep doing random
Speaker 2: racked close ups of the people in the boat, and
Speaker 2: we get the idea that it's floating. Maybe, I guess
Speaker 2: just my character standing and looking up at something. Oh
Speaker 2: my god, this is how you ended your movie.
Speaker 3: It was a bummer. There's no satisfying climax to any
Speaker 3: of this. I'm fine with the idea that Kingpin escapes.
Speaker 3: That gives you a cliffhanger that you can hang your
Speaker 3: perspective back door pilot on. But yeah, it was it
Speaker 3: should have. If you have the Hulk, if you have
Speaker 3: somebody like the Hulk, like a loof for Rigno, why
Speaker 3: wouldn't you have a real climactic fight, have him go
Speaker 3: toe to toe with Fisk. Maybe Fisk has a secret
Speaker 3: weapon that he has to go up against. Maybe I
Speaker 3: don't know, techno.
Speaker 2: Just give him some sort of mech suit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm That's what I'm saying. It's just
Speaker 3: such a missed opportunity here.
Speaker 2: I did have a good time watching this. I do
Speaker 2: think that Rex Smith is a better actor than I
Speaker 2: gave him any credits for. I do think Luf Forigno
Speaker 2: was a fucking amazing Hulk, and I liked.
Speaker 3: Bill bicks Amen to all of those things. I came
Speaker 3: into this just like you said, I wasn't really looking
Speaker 3: forward because my memory of it wasn't all that positive.
Speaker 3: And although a lot of that was born out, I
Speaker 3: was pleasantly surprised by, like you said, by Rex Smith,
Speaker 3: by how nice it was to see Luf Forregno doing
Speaker 3: his thing. It's nothing that I'm eager to revisit anytime soon,
Speaker 3: but I was happy to watch.
Speaker 2: It, and it hearkens back to a time when the
Speaker 2: Hulk was a monster of rage who was uncontrollable and
Speaker 2: just fucked shit up. And that's what we loved about him,
Speaker 2: that that.
Speaker 3: Was his defining characteristic. That's why having him have banners
Speaker 3: intellect in the Avengers movies was It's an interesting choice.
Speaker 3: But do we really need a brainy, smart Hulk or
Speaker 3: do we really want that uncontrolled rage monster.
Speaker 2: I think we can have both. We can well, sir,
Speaker 2: there are many Hulks out there now. We've got a
Speaker 2: she Hulk, We've got a Red Hulk, got a regular Hulk.
Speaker 2: We're gonna have all sorts of Hulks. Once we get
Speaker 2: to Battle World, it's going to be Hulk City. Man
Speaker 2: Hulk has a sun and that.
Speaker 3: Would be very cool. But I think maybe something is
Speaker 3: a little lost when you don't have that angry Hulk
Speaker 3: just with unreasoning rage, because there's something dangerous about him,
Speaker 3: and there's something I don't know, endearing about the Banner's dilemma.
Speaker 3: I think when you defang the Hulk, I think maybe
Speaker 3: something's lost.
Speaker 2: I would love to take one of the episodes of
Speaker 2: the television series and rewrite it in a modern setting
Speaker 2: with modern values. I think any episode chosen would basically
Speaker 2: be Banner gets kicked around for forty five minutes, the
Speaker 2: Hulk hulks out and destroys the entire town, and then
Speaker 2: he moves on.
Speaker 3: He's this agent of a murder and death. He's like
Speaker 3: the Grim Reaper. He comes to your town and that's
Speaker 3: the Hulk Man.
Speaker 2: And you know they've started shit with him there, so
Speaker 2: that's what turned him into the Hulk. And then they're
Speaker 2: just going to keep coming at him they always do
Speaker 2: at the end of every episode. But he's not going
Speaker 2: to just run for the hills at the end. He's
Speaker 2: going to fucking destroy everything in sight.
Speaker 3: There was a comic, a series of comics called Grand
Speaker 3: Design that Marvel put out. They did one for the
Speaker 3: X Men. They did one for Fantastic Four, and they
Speaker 3: also did one for The Hulk, and basically what they
Speaker 3: are that were limited series that are trying to put
Speaker 3: the entire history of that character into context. Right, because
Speaker 3: when you think about it, the X Men, their history
Speaker 3: from like the sixties till now is crazy. So the
Speaker 3: idea of making sense of it and giving it a
Speaker 3: linear progression was really appealing. The thing with the Hulk
Speaker 3: was when you see all the stuff that happens to
Speaker 3: the Hulk over time, it's basically just the same repeating
Speaker 3: pattern of the Hulk is angry, he's misunderstood, he's banished,
Speaker 3: or attempts are made on his life, and this just
Speaker 3: keeps happening, Like eventually people come around, they think he's
Speaker 3: a good guy, and then something happens outside of his control.
Speaker 3: By the way, this is never the Hulk's fault. It's
Speaker 3: always somebody making him do things or forcing him to
Speaker 3: do things. So it's this endless progression of Hulk's good
Speaker 3: Everyone hates the Hulk, he's banished, rinse, repeat, So it's
Speaker 3: no wonder that the Hulk in the comic book is
Speaker 3: oftentimes like depressed, angry, upset because he's being endlessly ostracized
Speaker 3: and excluded from society that was.
Speaker 2: Interesting, baited into usefulness for them.
Speaker 3: That's when he's not being pushed into rage. He's being
Speaker 3: used to further someone else's agenda, usually with disastrous consequences
Speaker 3: for the Hulk.
Speaker 2: It's a great book, really good book that sounds like
Speaker 2: it would make a really good movie. Marvel anyway, HP,
Speaker 2: when you're not here talking about I don't know how
Speaker 2: we even Oh, we ended up here because of the
Speaker 2: Daredevil sort of crossover. But this is weird. I can't
Speaker 2: even call this an anthologies attack. This is straight up
Speaker 2: midnight doing anyway, HP, when you're not here helping me
Speaker 2: talk about Daredevil in all of his guyses. Where can
Speaker 2: people find you?
Speaker 3: You can find me. I am the co host of
Speaker 3: The Night Mister Walters, a taxi podcast with my esteemed
Speaker 3: co host Father Malone, getting prepped for season three. Lookout
Speaker 3: for that. I'm also in a case I also excuse me.
Speaker 3: I also produce the Noise Junkies music podcast that's been
Speaker 3: going well. Check that out. I also am an occasional
Speaker 3: guest of the Culture Asked with Chris Dashu and if
Speaker 3: that weren't enough. I have a bandcampsite hpmusicplaces dot bandcamp
Speaker 3: dot com. I've just released a new album called Wired
Speaker 3: and Waiting. It's full of all sorts of eighties synth goodness.
Speaker 3: Check that out if you like. And that's what.
Speaker 2: I'm up to. There you go check all those things out.
Speaker 2: As for me. If you want to support this show,
Speaker 2: head over to Patreon dot com. Slash Father Malone. Subscribers
Speaker 2: get episodes early and commercial free, and you get bonus
Speaker 2: shows like cable Box Theater, which hBN I do over there.
Speaker 2: In fact, we're taking on Pee Wee's It's the Pewe
Speaker 2: Herban Show. It's not Pee Wee's Playhouse, it's the original
Speaker 2: show from nineteen eighty or nineteen eighty one over on HBO.
Speaker 2: That'll be over on the Patreon channel. If money's tight,
Speaker 2: and I know it is, you can still help us
Speaker 2: out by subscribing, or liking or five starring us or
Speaker 2: giving us a good review. That would all be fantastic.
Speaker 2: Tune in next Friday for midnight Viewing the Horror Anthology Podcast,
Speaker 2: where we are taking a look at Tams of the
Speaker 2: Dark Side Season three, episodes seven and eight. Those are
Speaker 2: Heretic and a Serpent's Tooth. Those are both really good episodes. Actually,
Speaker 2: until next time, try to enjoy the daylight
Speaker 1: At