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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking
Speaker 3: Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 5: program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in True crime
Speaker 5: History and the authors that have written about them. There
Speaker 5: are more than sixty serial murderers in Canadian history. For
Speaker 5: too long, awareness serial murder and Canada has been confined
Speaker 5: to West Coast child killer Clifford Olson and the schoolgirl
Speaker 5: murderers Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalka, along with one of
Speaker 5: the most prolific serial killers in history, Robert Picton. Unlike America,
Speaker 5: Canada has been viewed as a nation untouched by the
Speaker 5: shadow of serial murder. Then came Colonel Russell Williams and
Speaker 5: his bizarre homicides in serial home invasions, which were sensational
Speaker 5: news worldwide on the Internet, television, and in newspapers and magazines.
Speaker 5: The reasons for Canada's serial killer blackout is clear. Until now,
Speaker 5: such information has never been compiled and presented in a single,
Speaker 5: concise work. Cold North Killers is a wake up call.
Speaker 5: This detailed and haunting account of Canada's worst monsters analyzes
Speaker 5: their crimes, childhoods, and inevitable downfalls. The book that was
Speaker 5: featured this evening is Cold North Killers Canadian Serial Murder
Speaker 5: with my special guest, journalist and author Lee mellar A.
Speaker 5: Welcome to the program, and thank you for a Green
Speaker 5: dis interview, Lee.
Speaker 6: Melar Hey, thanks for having me on them.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for coming on. This is very interesting,
Speaker 5: as you know, maybe the audience knows as well. I'm
Speaker 5: living in Winnipeg and born in Ontario, so this is
Speaker 5: even more interesting to me. Serial killers I had no
Speaker 5: idea about so. First off, a question that I often
Speaker 5: asked many of the authors is what brought you to
Speaker 5: this idea of writing a book about Canada's serial killers.
Speaker 5: You've got at least sixty serial killers profiled in this book.
Speaker 5: What brought you to this project? What compelled you to
Speaker 5: want to do a book about Canada's worst monsters?
Speaker 6: Originally I was going to write a fiction book, a
Speaker 6: series of detective stories, and I was going to have
Speaker 6: an RCMP profiler who went all over Canada solving these
Speaker 6: various murders. And I started thinking about the murderers that
Speaker 6: I was familiar with in Canada, the serial murders that is,
Speaker 6: and I could only come up with like Bernardo Olsen
Speaker 6: and Pickton at the time. So I didn't want to
Speaker 6: duplicate something that had been done in real life. So
Speaker 6: I decided to do a little bit of digging. And
Speaker 6: what I onearthed, I on earthed so many interesting cases
Speaker 6: that I've actually became more interested in writing a book
Speaker 6: on the non fiction the actual hidden story of serial
Speaker 6: murder in Canada, rather than my fictional mystery story.
Speaker 5: Sure, now, how did you? How did you start this?
Speaker 5: Because being in Canada myself too, not that I'm a
Speaker 5: serial killer expert, but I often have what can be
Speaker 5: considered serial killer experts on this program from America, you know,
Speaker 5: thet the really hard of true crime and people that
Speaker 5: are very experienced there, so they can be considered experts. Now,
Speaker 5: what where was your source of information and was there
Speaker 5: any Were you surprised that you didn't know this? But
Speaker 5: were you surprised at the lack of information? And where?
Speaker 5: What were your sources of information to find out all
Speaker 5: the lists of serial killers in Canada and the information
Speaker 5: behind their crimes and their convictions.
Speaker 6: Well, I started with the Internet, which is the perfect
Speaker 6: tool for searching. I went into newspaper archives pretty much
Speaker 6: every major newspaper all over Canada, looked at some court documents,
Speaker 6: looked at books that had been written on some of
Speaker 6: the cases specifically, and even watched a few television programs
Speaker 6: just trying to glean all the information I could on it.
Speaker 6: As you probably know, our court system is much more
Speaker 6: closed than the US as far as getting information goes,
Speaker 6: so as really scavenging.
Speaker 5: We seem to have a technical difficulty. Let me see
Speaker 5: what's going on here? Yeah still, oh there yo go Lee.
Speaker 5: Well we just lost you for about a few minutes
Speaker 5: so or a minute or so, so let's go back.
Speaker 5: You were talking about how Canadian system versus the American
Speaker 5: system much more closed, and you were scavenging, You were
Speaker 5: really scrounging for information, and then we lost you in
Speaker 5: the signal.
Speaker 6: That was That was pretty much it. You know, I
Speaker 6: was a scavenger. I took any available sources I could.
Speaker 6: As I got lucky, I was able to get psychiatrist
Speaker 6: reports or court documents, things like that. But a lot
Speaker 6: of the time I was going through newspapers or the
Speaker 6: books that have been published, say on some of these cases.
Speaker 6: A lot of the books are out of print too,
Speaker 6: so that'd track them down. That was yeah, that was
Speaker 6: my main source. I wasn't able to speak with any
Speaker 6: any of the killers or anything like that.
Speaker 5: Well, you don't have room in if you're talking about
Speaker 5: sixty cases or sixty murderers with multiple at least three,
Speaker 5: so you're talking about a lot of murders. If you
Speaker 5: went through that, no one knowing could put up that's incredible.
Speaker 5: That would be you know, real manifesto. So what I
Speaker 5: found interesting for you know, again we're talking to a
Speaker 5: world audience here, and a lot of people aren't so
Speaker 5: familiar with Clifford Olsen. They must be familiar with Paul
Speaker 5: Bernardo and Carlo Jamalka and Robert Picton, and then there
Speaker 5: are some other interesting Colonel Russell Williams. But but we'll
Speaker 5: talk later in the program, if we've got a little
Speaker 5: bit of time, I think we will just about the
Speaker 5: latest developments. How Canadians are really competing in this serial
Speaker 5: killer sweepstakes or at least bizarre killer sweepstakes. Anyway, we're
Speaker 5: trying to get noticed. So let's go back and talk
Speaker 5: about the lesser known serial killers in Canada that have
Speaker 5: a really I mean, I've found this fascinating just doing
Speaker 5: some of the research and looking through your book some
Speaker 5: of the very interesting cases that are unique, regardless of
Speaker 5: whether they're Canada or American, and tell us about tell
Speaker 5: us about Paul Jordan or the alcohol killer.
Speaker 6: Let me see Gilbert Paul Jordan. Yeah, he also he
Speaker 6: had a number of aliases. I think there was a
Speaker 6: he was Gilbert Paul Elsie, kept changing his name and
Speaker 6: every time he come out of prison. But this guy
Speaker 6: started in Vancouver in the sixties. He was a kind
Speaker 6: of a geeky looking guy, balding, with glasses and had
Speaker 6: absolutely no self confidence and I had a number of
Speaker 6: child molestation and rape charges. I believe his thing, aside
Speaker 6: from being a sexual predator, was that he was also
Speaker 6: a complete alcoholic and would often polish off forty ounces
Speaker 6: of sixty ounces of liquor in a day. So he
Speaker 6: kind of combined the two into this really bizarre signature
Speaker 6: where he would get the sex workers from the Vancouver's
Speaker 6: infamous downtown area, and he would take them to hotels
Speaker 6: or back to his barber shop, and he would play
Speaker 6: drinking games with them, which he would always win because
Speaker 6: he had kind of an iron liver by that point.
Speaker 6: And then when they passed that unconscious, he would pour
Speaker 6: the rest of the contents down their throats and they
Speaker 6: would die of alcohol poisoning, and then he would rape
Speaker 6: them as they were dying, and I imagine probably was
Speaker 6: still raping them after they were dead. So it's probably
Speaker 6: one of the most unique signatures that a serial killer
Speaker 6: has ever employed. And it also has the handy side
Speaker 6: effect of being able to pass off your victims as
Speaker 6: just you know, alcohol overdoses.
Speaker 5: There was some controversy in court though, because again he
Speaker 5: got eight to ten women died by this way, so
Speaker 5: by the time people had heard about this, there was
Speaker 5: some controversy in court as to whether they could ever
Speaker 5: ever prove that what he was doing was actually murdered
Speaker 5: that you're speaking about. Tell us just a little bit
Speaker 5: about that, because there's a little bit about that that
Speaker 5: this guy was known for a little while, and then
Speaker 5: finally tell us how he was actually convicted and what
Speaker 5: was his inevitable faith himself.
Speaker 6: Oh well, I can tell you it was an inevitable
Speaker 6: fate right off the bat, and it's quite startling. Actually,
Speaker 6: we have the dangerous offender law in Canada, where if
Speaker 6: you're somebody that's convicted of multiple heinous crimes, you can
Speaker 6: get this designation where you're not allowed to be let
Speaker 6: out of prison. But amazingly they kept even after he
Speaker 6: was convicted of these serial murders, they kept letting him
Speaker 6: out of prison, and he'd reoffend again, not necessarily with
Speaker 6: a murder, but with preaching, you know, his parole, or
Speaker 6: just as minor crimes or sex crimes, and so essentially
Speaker 6: he kept offending until the day he eventually died, and
Speaker 6: they never really figured out that they should just keep
Speaker 6: them in prison. It's strange to me.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well it was. Again. I think it's the controversy
Speaker 5: was that there was you know, I mean, it's a
Speaker 5: hard thing to prove that what he did other than
Speaker 5: people willingly drinking alcohol together. So unless you have this
Speaker 5: reliable eyewitness, and we won't board American audience or world
Speaker 5: audience with what's ronwa Canada. In terms of regarding intoxication
Speaker 5: as a major excuse for murder, but you know, our
Speaker 5: friends across the border don't have a similar device where
Speaker 5: alcohol actually can diminish murder or reduce murder to something
Speaker 5: like manslaughter. So and I'm not sure about every other country,
Speaker 5: but I'm pretty sure that they there are few countries,
Speaker 5: if any, have that same sort of as you know
Speaker 5: by reading being a student of the media, that that
Speaker 5: it's almost routine to drop murdered of manslaughter because of intoxication.
Speaker 6: So mm hmm, yeah, I mean that, go ahead, no,
Speaker 6: go ahead. I was just gonna say that could have
Speaker 6: been a factor. There's some things that are interesting to me.
Speaker 6: For instance that when they did an autopsy on one
Speaker 6: of the uh, one of the victims, Ivory Rose Oswald,
Speaker 6: they found that she had a blood alcohol level of
Speaker 6: zero point five to one, and death by alcohol poisoning
Speaker 6: normally occurs at point four. So to me that, I mean,
Speaker 6: that's very suspicious. How does she keep drinking after?
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Speaker 6: She would be that plus they have They also had
Speaker 6: audio recordings with him saying strange things to them like
Speaker 6: come on, one more, drink baby down the hatch, you know,
Speaker 6: basically egging them on to drink themselves into unconsciousness. So
Speaker 6: there's to me, there was a lot of proof.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the thing is that that's what I Again, an
Speaker 5: American audience might find odd that this guy's you just said,
Speaker 5: this guy committed eight to ten murders and yet he's
Speaker 5: still he was not in prison for the rest of
Speaker 5: his life. One, two, three, four, five six. There are
Speaker 5: devices in other countries where this negligent behavior regardless, someone dies,
Speaker 5: then that someone has to be responsible and the sentences
Speaker 5: are much stiffer. So you there wouldn't be a serial
Speaker 5: killer like this in other countries, I would think, and certainly, certainly, definitely,
Speaker 5: as far as my research is not a chance in America. Now,
Speaker 5: tell us about some other notorious murderers in Canada and
Speaker 5: you just you just name some and then we'll discuss those.
Speaker 6: Okay, well, you said you're from Winnipeg. Let's start with
Speaker 6: Michael Veschio or you're aware of him.
Speaker 5: A little bit. But tell us more about Michael Veshio
Speaker 5: and what you found out.
Speaker 6: Okay, Well, let's go back to what you said before
Speaker 6: about the definition of the serial killer being three victims. Actually,
Speaker 6: after a conference by the FBI and various academic experts
Speaker 6: on the subject in San Antonio, they decided to drop
Speaker 6: it to two now, so that it's only two. And
Speaker 6: there is a lot of controversy over that. So my
Speaker 6: book does feature a lot of offenders that have only
Speaker 6: been convicted of two. But at the same time, it
Speaker 6: was a reasonable assumption. They defend again, and one of
Speaker 6: them is Michael Veschio. He was in Winnipeg. He was
Speaker 6: after the right after World War two, and basically someone
Speaker 6: was raping these or sexually assaulting these boys in their
Speaker 6: early teens or children at gunpoint in Winnipeg, and whenever
Speaker 6: they refused him, he would shoot them. And so he
Speaker 6: ended up killing two boys and actually caught him by
Speaker 6: by finding him in thunder Bay after he'd robbed the bank,
Speaker 6: and they linked the weapon through ballistics to the Winnipeg murders,
Speaker 6: and that's how Michael Veashio was brought to justice.
Speaker 5: Wow. Well that's fascinating too because that's my hometown, thunder Bay.
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, and I grew up. I grew up
Speaker 5: with a guy named Vashio, so there's you know, Vatio
Speaker 5: family would be familiar with me too, So that was
Speaker 5: very interesting.
Speaker 6: Yeah they could, Yeah, it could be related.
Speaker 5: Now, what was the fate of Michael Vesho He was
Speaker 5: convicted of the two murders? Obviously, No, he.
Speaker 6: Ended up at the end of the hangman's rope.
Speaker 5: Yeah, swift justice.
Speaker 6: They didn't nothing around back in those days. You had
Speaker 6: a couple of months.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Now, tell us about tell us about maybe someone
Speaker 5: from another part of the country so we can get
Speaker 5: a little geographical idea that it's not just West Coast.
Speaker 5: Tell us about some of the other serial killers not
Speaker 5: known to the general public.
Speaker 6: Okay, well there's a Probably Toronto's most interesting serial murderer
Speaker 6: was a seventeen year old boy by the name of
Speaker 6: Peter Woodcock, and he was operating in the late nineteen
Speaker 6: fifty six in early nineteen fifty seven, he was mobile,
Speaker 6: but on a highly mobile but he rode a bicycle
Speaker 6: around Toronto, and essentially he would lure these little children
Speaker 6: into parts of Toronto like ravines or down to Cherry Beach,
Speaker 6: which was then quite deserted, and he choked them and
Speaker 6: beat them, bite them, and this kind of strangle and
Speaker 6: suffocate them into death.
Speaker 7: These very sort of.
Speaker 6: Spontaneous hand crimes to kill these children. And there was
Speaker 6: also a really immature sexual element to them too, like
Speaker 6: he would undress them, look at the bodies, and then
Speaker 6: redress them, but without actually sexually assaulting them. And the
Speaker 6: first two victims were young boys, like around nine years old.
Speaker 6: The third victim was a girl, I believe she was
Speaker 6: about four, and he killed her by thrusting a branch
Speaker 6: into her vagina. So they finally catched this weird kid
Speaker 6: with glasses who was riding all over Toronto and acting
Speaker 6: quite suspiciously, and they put him in a mental health
Speaker 6: hospital and he stays there from nineteen fifty seven to
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety one, when they finally decide that he's been
Speaker 6: through enough rehabilitation that they can allow him out on
Speaker 6: a day pass and you know what, he doesn't even
Speaker 6: get off the hospital grounds. As soon as he's out
Speaker 6: of the hospital, he murders a fellow patients, Dennis Kerr,
Speaker 6: sodomizes his corpse and then walks to the police station
Speaker 6: and turns himself in.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, amazing. Yeah, it's hard to beat something like that. Incredible. Now,
Speaker 5: what about.
Speaker 6: Boden Wayne Boden. Okay, so when we're moving into Quebec,
Speaker 6: Wayne Boden was known as the vampire rapist or strangler Bill,
Speaker 6: and he kind of surfaced in nineteen sixty nine. Boden's signature,
Speaker 6: which is the kind of like a psychosexual expression which
Speaker 6: we use to link crimes, was biting into the breasts
Speaker 6: of his victims, hence the term the vampire rapist. So
Speaker 6: in nineteen sixty nine nineteen seventy that era, he killed
Speaker 6: three women in Montreal. He'd go back to their apartments
Speaker 6: with them and then he'd sexually attack them and bite
Speaker 6: their breasts on two of those occasions, and the whole
Speaker 6: city was in a panic looking for this guy. And
Speaker 6: then it stopped. But he resurfaces in Calgary, Alberta, and
Speaker 6: he murders a woman there and they're able to link
Speaker 6: him to that crime through the bite marks.
Speaker 7: So it was actually the first.
Speaker 6: Time that I believe bite mark evidence was used in
Speaker 6: North America to convict any kind of offender. And it's
Speaker 6: important because later it would be used to apprehend ted
Speaker 6: Bundy started in Canada.
Speaker 5: Yeah, very interesting. Yeah, it's a very interesting twist. Now,
Speaker 5: what about William Patrick Fife And then he says five,
Speaker 5: He's been convicted of five murders in Montreal, but he's
Speaker 5: a suspect and much many more. Tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about William Fife.
Speaker 6: The last number I think they pigged him at was nine.
Speaker 6: William Fife was known as the killer Handyman. He actually
Speaker 6: this first murder they believed was nineteen seventy nine. He
Speaker 6: wasn't apprehended till nineteen ninety nine, so he was killing
Speaker 6: over a twenty year period. His modus operandi was basically
Speaker 6: to go.
Speaker 7: He would stalk.
Speaker 6: These women that were living on their own about various ages,
Speaker 6: and when he was certain that they weren't living with
Speaker 6: a man, or that a man wasn't going to be home,
Speaker 6: he would often go and knock on the doors and say, well,
Speaker 6: you know, the landlord sent me around to fix the
Speaker 6: sink or something like that, like a ruse approach. Once
Speaker 6: he'd gain entry to the house, he'd attacked the women,
Speaker 6: often raping them, and he was a lot of anger
Speaker 6: in that man. He would stab his victims forty four times,
Speaker 6: bludging them, beat them severely, and then towards the end of.
Speaker 7: His career as a serial killer, he was actually.
Speaker 6: Torturing them to get their ATM codes. So they've got
Speaker 6: the police goup a first look at him when he
Speaker 6: was caught on an ATM camera accessing one of the
Speaker 6: women's bank accounts. He was eventually caught by DNA. He
Speaker 6: was already on record and he left some DNA at
Speaker 6: one of the crime scenes, and so that was that,
Speaker 6: and they threw him in jail, and eventually he confessed
Speaker 6: to these other murders going back to nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 6: which they hadn't linked them to.
Speaker 5: So he's got nine nine under his belt.
Speaker 7: In Yeah, that's a pretty safe bet.
Speaker 5: Now we talked about Peter Woodcock, tell us about another
Speaker 5: interesting serial killer that people might not have heard about.
Speaker 6: The one that people might not have heard about. Okay, Well,
Speaker 6: there's just there's so many of them.
Speaker 7: There is a guy called.
Speaker 6: Ronald Glenn West. He was known as the twenty two
Speaker 6: caliber killer. Lots of serial killers have had that moniker
Speaker 6: over history, but he was actually the first. And he
Speaker 6: was a policeman in Toronto, and he would drive to
Speaker 6: the sort of countryside just north of Toronto and he
Speaker 6: would knock on the doors of housewives while their husbands
Speaker 6: were away. Then we're not quite sure gain an entry
Speaker 6: to the house. He might have pulled the gun, he
Speaker 6: might have tricked his way in the wants inside. He
Speaker 6: would rape them at gunpoint and then he'd shoot them
Speaker 6: to death, often in front of their children. And because
Speaker 6: he was a policeman, he was very forensically.
Speaker 7: Aware, so he would collect a lot of.
Speaker 6: The evidence in shellcasings. So he committed these two of
Speaker 6: these murders in nineteen seventy and then the trail just
Speaker 6: went cold, and it was cold for twenty five years,
Speaker 6: and then they actually catch him in thunder Bay committing
Speaker 6: an armed robbery, and they just threw good police work.
Speaker 6: The guy who caught him for the armed robbery was
Speaker 6: at an opp conference with a guy who was investigating
Speaker 6: this cold case from nineteen seventy and he mentioned a
Speaker 6: specific type of gum that Ronald West used this pistol,
Speaker 6: and the police officer investigating the nineteen seventy murderers he
Speaker 6: realized that it was the same rare have done that
Speaker 6: they were looking for, So they eventually linked West those
Speaker 6: rape murders by a DNA sample.
Speaker 5: Interesting the unique case. How about tell us about Leopold Dion.
Speaker 6: Oh, Leopold Dion. Okay, so that's back in the sixties.
Speaker 6: He was known as the Monster of pont Rouge. That
Speaker 6: memory serves me correctly. Basically, yeah, he was a child
Speaker 6: killer and he worked around the Quebec city area.
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Speaker 6: Well, Quebec's capital, and what you would do is, once again,
Speaker 6: he would use this ruse that we've seen with William
Speaker 6: Fife that Ron West might have used. It's essentially a
Speaker 6: way of approaching a victim. And his ruse was to
Speaker 6: approach these kids and say, you know, would you like
Speaker 6: me to take photographs of you to be in this magazine.
Speaker 6: I'm a photographer, and I guess that those being more
Speaker 6: innocent times, the kids would go with him and he'd
Speaker 6: take some pictures of them, and they he'd put them
Speaker 6: at ease and then can I just drive you out
Speaker 6: to the country and take some pictures there, and once
Speaker 6: he had they degree and once he had them out
Speaker 6: in the country, he'd strangled them with He had like
Speaker 6: a studded gar out that he had made and he'd
Speaker 6: strangle them with that and then bury the bodies. And
Speaker 6: he was eventually identified because he approached a number of
Speaker 6: kids that didn't go with him, and one of them
Speaker 6: picked him out from a group of photographs that police
Speaker 6: officers had of sex offenders in the area. So Leopold
Speaker 6: Dion was brought to justice in that way. And the
Speaker 6: interesting thing about him actually was he had a kind
Speaker 6: of Jeffrey Dahmer type death in that he went to
Speaker 6: prison and he was originally supposed to hang but as
Speaker 6: he was in prison, a psychotic inmate who thought that
Speaker 6: he was Launce of Arabia. Yeah, he he killed Leopold Dion.
Speaker 6: And that guy's name was Norman Champagne. And I found out,
Speaker 6: actually after I coold North Killers, that Champagne was in
Speaker 6: prison for killing somebody too, so technically under the new classifications,
Speaker 6: that would make him.
Speaker 7: A serial killer.
Speaker 6: So the serial killer Leopaul Dion was killed by another
Speaker 6: serial killer, Norman Champagne, who I guess happened to be
Speaker 6: a little tougher than he was or more psycho or yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, interesting, yeah, very interesting. How about Edward the is
Speaker 5: it bulf or Roof?
Speaker 6: Edward Edward Rolloff? Yes, he was Canada's first serial killer,
Speaker 6: and he actually committed all of his crimes in the
Speaker 6: United States. But Roloff was born in New Brunswick and
Speaker 6: raised there, and he was an absolute genius to the man.
Speaker 6: In fact, they've still got his brain in some university somewhere,
Speaker 6: and apparently it weighs. It's one of the densest brains
Speaker 6: as far as weight goes in the world. And Roloff
Speaker 6: was kind of one of those nineteenth century serial killers
Speaker 6: that prayed a lot on his family. He was a
Speaker 6: very jealous man and domineering. So when he moved to
Speaker 6: the United States, it was to New York and he
Speaker 6: took a wife there who he beat regularly. The rest
Speaker 6: of the family didn't like real Loff for this reason,
Speaker 6: so Roloff decides to get even. He passes himself off
Speaker 6: as a doctor.
Speaker 7: So when.
Speaker 6: The wife and child of one of his wife's brothers
Speaker 6: got sick, he asked him to go intend to her.
Speaker 6: He poisons her and the child to death. He then
Speaker 6: kills his own wife child and he makes off with
Speaker 6: their bodies, and he's jailed for that. He escapes from
Speaker 6: jail and goes back to New York and attempts to
Speaker 6: join some kind of criminal ring where he's the leader
Speaker 6: and he's got these underlings under him. They rob a
Speaker 6: shop and they shoot a clerk dead in the process,
Speaker 6: and then so that his accomplices won't tell on him
Speaker 6: or take his cut of the loot, he kills both
Speaker 6: of his accomplices, so he didn't There wasn't really the
Speaker 6: sexual component to his crimes that we've seen with the
Speaker 6: other ones. He was more.
Speaker 7: Motivated by just his ego is jealousy.
Speaker 6: And his desire for material comfort and to and to
Speaker 6: see himself as an ingenious criminal, which he wasn't naturally
Speaker 6: he was. Rather, he was a rather poor criminal. If
Speaker 6: he would have stuck to his straints, which was in languages,
Speaker 6: et cetera, who it probably would have done a lot
Speaker 6: better in life.
Speaker 5: Yeah, serial killing probably doesn't pay that well.
Speaker 6: No, well, yeah, it's amazing that you bring him up
Speaker 6: because him being so known for his intelligence yet being
Speaker 6: such a dismal success as a serial killer. He's completely incompetent.
Speaker 6: Yet then we get someone on the West Coast like
Speaker 6: Robert Picton who has an eighty seven IQ and looks
Speaker 6: just like a serial killer. You know, it runs a
Speaker 6: big farm. All signs are going, you know that this
Speaker 6: is a guy that should be caught right away. Well,
Speaker 6: he's killed from thirty one to forty nine plus women.
Speaker 6: So one of the interesting things I noted while resttering
Speaker 6: serial killers is that IQ doesn't necessarily equate to success
Speaker 6: in this and freer American listeners consider guys like Gary
Speaker 6: Ridgway who had an eighty two IQ, but he was
Speaker 6: forty eight women. I think he holds the current record
Speaker 6: in the United States.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then the thing is then you get a
Speaker 5: person like Ted Bundy, which was he was an intelligent guy.
Speaker 5: He was politically involved. He could have been a lawyer
Speaker 5: and he could have been a politician, or he could
Speaker 5: have been very seriously politically involved. He was charismatic. But
Speaker 5: then again, we'll talk about this a little bit after
Speaker 5: we go through a few more murderers. But some of
Speaker 5: these people, it overcomes them. Their narcissism overcomes them, their
Speaker 5: need for infamy, you know, the dark side overcomes them.
Speaker 5: In terms of any kind of control, and a lot
Speaker 5: of these guys go from being a little bit more
Speaker 5: calculated to getting not so calculated. There is so in
Speaker 5: a downward spiral, but we'll talk about that a little
Speaker 5: bit later. Tell us about another kind of unique killer
Speaker 5: in Canada. Just name one another one in your book
Speaker 5: and let's talk about them.
Speaker 6: Okay, Well, we got another guy in Montreal called Angelo Colaillo.
Speaker 6: He was never actually convicted because he hung himself for
Speaker 6: his trial. But unfortunately that doesn't get you out of
Speaker 6: my book.
Speaker 7: Those tactics.
Speaker 6: So Cola Lilo, they actually caught him. He was already
Speaker 6: had convictions as a rapist, but they caught him because
Speaker 6: I guess while he was inside prison he made friends
Speaker 6: with a guy called Nick Pachioni, who was also of
Speaker 6: the same kind of statistic bent. And when Cola Lilo
Speaker 6: got out of prison, he was murdering these teenage Well
Speaker 6: he murdered a twenty year old and a twelve year
Speaker 6: old girl, but he did it in a way that
Speaker 6: was extremely organized, and he covered it up by lighting fires.
Speaker 6: I believe he'd get into the house, raped them, torture them,
Speaker 6: strangle them to death with a folded towel, which he
Speaker 6: called the mister Spock method. And we only know this
Speaker 6: about him because he wrote about it in letters to
Speaker 6: Pacioni in prison, but he disguised that. He didn't say
Speaker 6: I did it. He said, imagine there was this character
Speaker 6: called Bob who did this. And then as the prison
Speaker 6: officials were intercepting these letters, they realized that he was
Speaker 6: speaking about actual murders that were unsolved or in some cases,
Speaker 6: things that had been deemed accidents. So when he killed
Speaker 6: his third victim, Jessica Grimard, who was fourteen, he dragged
Speaker 6: her into the woods and stabbed her to death and
Speaker 6: raped her, he sent a letter to Patchioni and this
Speaker 6: is the one that they intercepted and tipped them off,
Speaker 6: and they linked them back through his letters to these
Speaker 6: previous murders. So he's an interesting serial killer. And that
Speaker 6: he managed to commit two murders that one of them
Speaker 6: was deemed an accident and one was a suicide, so
Speaker 6: incredibly organized. Kind of relating back to what you said
Speaker 6: about Bundy a second ago. He would have got away
Speaker 6: with it if he didn't sure to brag about it,
Speaker 6: but he's like he couldn't keep his mouth shut. He
Speaker 6: had to tell someone his narcissism got got the better
Speaker 6: of him, and it often does with these guys. That's
Speaker 6: what trips them out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well sometimes it trips them up. But we'll talk
Speaker 5: about this a little bit later on. It's a little
Speaker 5: bit different when you look at a guy like Twitchell,
Speaker 5: the guy I was involved with, Sidney Tierhughes, and you
Speaker 5: look at Luca Magnata and you start looking at Wow,
Speaker 5: it's different. I think there is some evolution from because
Speaker 5: we're looking at the better known cases. The sixties and seventies,
Speaker 5: even the turn of the century had some savages and
Speaker 5: some really diabolical killer So there is no reason to
Speaker 5: think that based on what's going on in popular society,
Speaker 5: and the Luca magnat is very much a reflection of that,
Speaker 5: is that there is something else going on. I think
Speaker 5: in you see the front page of the Winnipeg Sun today,
Speaker 5: kid eighteen years old involved in serious torture and home
Speaker 5: invasion talking about his allegiance to Lucifer and his serial
Speaker 5: killer aspirations.
Speaker 6: So going only yeah, you can bet too. Just to
Speaker 6: clear something up. This whole idea that there are these
Speaker 6: satanic cults murdering people. It really is a myth. This
Speaker 6: allegiance to Lucifer is probably some He probably has no
Speaker 6: understanding of Satanism, might not even fully believe in it,
Speaker 6: or just be completely whacked out on some kind of
Speaker 6: really hard drug or schizophrenic or something. But that I
Speaker 6: imagine kind of like Richard Ramirez, I think it's a
Speaker 6: big part of his image. You know, he knows that
Speaker 6: by saying I'm alive with Lucifer, that it's going to
Speaker 6: make headlines, which it did. We're talking about it right now.
Speaker 6: You know, these guys look for angles. Luca Magnauta. I
Speaker 6: think he was all about that. He was looking for
Speaker 6: as many angles as he possibly could. Like, did we
Speaker 6: actually see him eat that piece of flesh that he
Speaker 6: cut out of the guy's buttocks? We didn't. He placed
Speaker 6: it on a fork and showed it to the camera.
Speaker 6: You know, he's got a kitten in there, just to
Speaker 6: show us how depraved he is, or he wants us
Speaker 6: to think he is. So yeah, there's there's certainly this
Speaker 6: kind of generation coming up of serial killers that are
Speaker 6: out to impress us, or or just general murders that
Speaker 6: are out to impress us with their depravity and if yeah,
Speaker 6: I think that would be a reflection of this cult
Speaker 6: of celebrity kind of civilization that we live in right now,
Speaker 6: where it's better to be infamous or famous for something
Speaker 6: terrible than to be a nobody, you know, to not
Speaker 6: exist in the media eye is like the worst possible
Speaker 6: fate that we can imagine in their modern age.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it really, I mean, it's not a new phenomenon.
Speaker 5: I say, well, it's an evolution, but really it's just
Speaker 5: a Canon's just a little bit behind America. It just seems,
Speaker 5: you know, we're definitely affected by their culture. So Richard
Speaker 5: Ramirez doing the Satan thing or Charles Manson doing the
Speaker 5: Nazi thing again, aligning yourself with Hitler's pretty good too,
Speaker 5: to get to you know, upset Marvel's dad. You know.
Speaker 5: So the thing is Richard mmire is it used it
Speaker 5: to his advantage. He got married, He had all kinds
Speaker 5: of women proposing to him and pledging allegiance to them.
Speaker 5: And really it's just like these guys are just like
Speaker 5: rock stars, and their trials are just their big moment
Speaker 5: on stage and they'll be remembered and and you know,
Speaker 5: they'll live on in infamy forever because of the books
Speaker 5: and the photos, and so really their wish really does
Speaker 5: come true, and some people have a little bit of
Speaker 5: a problem with that. But but what I think is
Speaker 5: now is that because there are the Gary Ridgeways and
Speaker 5: the Robert Picton's where they've got forty nine or forty eight, well,
Speaker 5: you know, these guys are in a rush to get famous,
Speaker 5: so they're gonna have to one up each other by
Speaker 5: trying to do as much multi media as possible and
Speaker 5: as shocking as absolutely possible. And you know that's why
Speaker 5: I see Twitchell, tear Hues and Mgnauta and Colonel Williams
Speaker 5: all sort of influencing each other because really a lot
Speaker 5: of these stories don't play that far or that deep
Speaker 5: into the US. They have a lot of their own
Speaker 5: serial killers and all kinds of breaking, interesting and bizarre
Speaker 5: news that you're not they're not likely to cover that
Speaker 5: much from Canada except the bigger, high profile cases. But
Speaker 5: I think that we have is of one upping each other,
Speaker 5: and I think that is is especially prevalent in the
Speaker 5: last few years in Canada. It just seems odd.
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely, there is a guy caught in Toronto recently.
Speaker 6: It was after my book was published called Mark Moore,
Speaker 6: and he had these delusions that he was like this
Speaker 6: gangster rapper and that he was, you know, part of
Speaker 6: a policy and going around killing people, but he was
Speaker 6: just by himself.
Speaker 7: He was a.
Speaker 6: Total loaner, just driving around shooting people with a with
Speaker 6: a handgun from his car window.
Speaker 7: You know, it's.
Speaker 6: Once again a reflection of the whole celebrity thing. And
Speaker 6: I think what's interesting is.
Speaker 7: That these.
Speaker 6: Murderers that we're talking about, like Magnata and More and Twitchell,
Speaker 6: who were motivated by fame, if they tend to not
Speaker 6: kill very many people before they're caught, they're caught almost
Speaker 6: immediately because they're just screaming out for attention, where if
Speaker 6: you look at guys like Robert Picton and Gary Ridgeway,
Speaker 6: they didn't really want us to know what they were doing.
Speaker 6: They weren't big into the thought of being known as
Speaker 6: serial killers. I mean, in fact, Pickton still hasn't even
Speaker 6: admitted to it, and Ridgeway talks about it, but he's
Speaker 6: somewhat reluctant too, and you can tell that it was
Speaker 6: not his point to be a star. These were guys
Speaker 6: motivated by deep seated inferiority and rage. And for that
Speaker 6: reason they kept it very much under wraps. They weren't
Speaker 6: they weren't trying to be in the public eye. Maybe
Speaker 6: they wanted the image of the Green River Killer. You know,
Speaker 6: Ridgeway wanted this whole Green River Killer to be in
Speaker 6: the public eye. He might have got some satisfaction from that,
Speaker 6: but I don't think he ever wanted the name Gary
Speaker 6: Ridgeway linked to it. And because of that reason, I
Speaker 6: think the more egotistical and the more you use it
Speaker 6: as a vehicle for fame, that's likely you are to
Speaker 6: actually become a serial killer. In fact, like mcnaudia, will
Speaker 6: probably kill one person then get caught.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't you know. All I know is the
Speaker 5: case that I was involved with, and the killer posed
Speaker 5: the question which serial killer that he most closely resembled.
Speaker 5: And when I first looked at the case, and when
Speaker 5: I obviously went real deep into research for the book,
Speaker 5: trying to get the book deal, but also just trying
Speaker 5: to get as much background. And I interviewed the killer
Speaker 5: for a year, and in that year I learned as
Speaker 5: much as I could from you know, the authorities, the
Speaker 5: authors that have interviewed these people that have had the
Speaker 5: opportunities to interview these people, and then of course guys
Speaker 5: like Douglass and Wrestler who created the criminal profiles by
Speaker 5: interviewing thirty six of the worst serial killers, and you
Speaker 5: sort of get, you know, not that you're an expert
Speaker 5: after that, but you sort of get an idea of
Speaker 5: the serial killer mind. And it makes no sense for
Speaker 5: the guy that I was involved with. That's why I
Speaker 5: consider him a serial killer. For him to have that
Speaker 5: this was his last crime, because we won't go into it,
Speaker 5: but certainly that it makes more sense that this was
Speaker 5: his last crime. And when he had a spectacular opportunity
Speaker 5: having Susan Sarandon's stolen golden necklace, he knew that this
Speaker 5: would set off the paparazzi that were in town because
Speaker 5: Jennifer Lopez was going to be in town within a
Speaker 5: day or two, and so I think that's what his
Speaker 5: motivation was. So I think there's also a phenomenon in
Speaker 5: Canada too, where this guy, at least that I was
Speaker 5: involved with one have his cake and eat it too,
Speaker 5: do a few years in jail because he knew that
Speaker 5: there was a good chance if you said I'm drunk
Speaker 5: and I can't remember that this intoxication would mean that
Speaker 5: he could have everything. He could have fame, a little
Speaker 5: stint in jail where he would be a celebrity in
Speaker 5: his mind, and then freedom and still having all his
Speaker 5: incredible memories of the people that he did kill. So
Speaker 5: that's just my suspicion and my take on it from
Speaker 5: everything that I've researched. But I think some of the
Speaker 5: people that are arrested in Canada that there isn't in
Speaker 5: an immediate response by bringing an FBI trained criminal profilers
Speaker 5: to interview those people effectively.
Speaker 6: No, it's a lot of it is done by psychiatrists
Speaker 6: or psychologists in the prison and it's funny because they
Speaker 6: still think that they can rehabilitate some of these people.
Speaker 6: I'm a colleague of mind doctor Eric Ticky in the US.
Speaker 6: He's a very well respected expert on serial murderers. He
Speaker 6: came out of the way to Kingston to interview Cliff
Speaker 6: Olsen and they told him in Kingston when he got
Speaker 6: there that he couldn't he can't interview Olson because they
Speaker 6: thought it might disrupt Olsen's rehabilitation process. And it's just
Speaker 6: a complete disconnect from reality. You do not rehabilitate differd Olsen.
Speaker 6: This is a guy who's calling the parents of the
Speaker 6: kids he's murdered from prison and describing them, describing to
Speaker 6: them what he did to them. This is a guy
Speaker 6: who is it was able to get doctor Hickey's home
Speaker 6: phone number. He's a master manipulator, he was even before.
Speaker 6: He is a serial killer who was a terrible criminal.
Speaker 6: He's rape this, breaking into houses, a complete and other psychopath.
Speaker 6: And it baffles me that the Canadian mental health will
Speaker 6: look at someone like Coovie Olsen and say, yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: we got to cure him. Why why would you cure
Speaker 6: him so that he can be cured and in prison?
Speaker 6: Because if you're thinking of letting him out, he probably
Speaker 6: shouldn't have your license to practice mental health.
Speaker 5: Well, the thing is, Clifford Olson, I don't think was
Speaker 5: by definition insane. But we have and I won't bore
Speaker 5: the audience because but we have our unique case of
Speaker 5: Vincent Lee now out on day passes after three years
Speaker 5: after the bus beheading on the Greyhound, and it looks
Speaker 5: like he's going to be a sort of a poster
Speaker 5: boy for psychiatric rehabilitation in terms of that this guy
Speaker 5: can They're talking about is incredible, incredible, incredible cure from
Speaker 5: schizophrenia on their medication. They wish all of their mentally
Speaker 5: ill patients would respond in such an effective, in such
Speaker 5: a profound way, and so you're just you can already
Speaker 5: see they've already spoken about it. Within five years this
Speaker 5: person will be free based on they rehabilitated him with
Speaker 5: a drug. And I think our American neighbors and other
Speaker 5: people in the world, and that's why I think it's
Speaker 5: an interesting case, and I think that's why true true
Speaker 5: crime in Canada is just getting more and more interesting
Speaker 5: when this stuff goes to court. In America, of the
Speaker 5: states are still death penalty there, definitely is. Most states
Speaker 5: have a device of parole without any possibility or pardon me,
Speaker 5: life sentence wellout any possibility of parole. Here, it's not
Speaker 5: a foregone conclusion. We have the doctor and have his
Speaker 5: kids to death, and it's amazing and it seems to
Speaker 5: be more as as precedent shows more and more that
Speaker 5: we're excusing murder. And like you say, we still think
Speaker 5: we can rehabilitate killers, and we routinely let them out
Speaker 5: before their life sentences on parole to see their safety.
Speaker 5: How safe they can be in the public, and then
Speaker 5: we routinely let them out, so very scary.
Speaker 6: I have a whole chapter, I think it's the last
Speaker 6: chapter of the book devoted to that, just where the
Speaker 6: system has made errors in judgment and failing out letting
Speaker 6: dangerous offenders out of prison. And that's one of the
Speaker 6: reasons why I decided to write the book, because I
Speaker 6: thought that the true story of the history of Syria
Speaker 6: murder in Canada hadn't been told. And you know, to
Speaker 6: give you six to give people sixty cases to look
Speaker 6: at and to say how do you think things are
Speaker 6: functioning here? You know, that was a big part of it.
Speaker 6: But also I'd like to get back to this idea
Speaker 6: of I mean, the saying that Lee is cured and
Speaker 6: then also doing mental health work on someone like a
Speaker 6: Clifford Olson or Paul Bernardo. Comparing Vince Lee to one
Speaker 6: of those guys, it's like comparing a banana to a grapefruit.
Speaker 6: I mean, the guy killed because he was extremely psychotic.
Speaker 6: And when I use the word psychotic, I mean his
Speaker 6: proper sense that he was schizophrenic. He was literally probably
Speaker 6: having the equivalent of a massive acid trip, like he
Speaker 6: was completely flipping out, hallucinating. His whole sense of reality
Speaker 6: was distorted. So he's not killing out of vindictiveness. He's
Speaker 6: killing because it's like being in a nightmare and he
Speaker 6: wants to escape it. Oh, sure that is yeah, and
Speaker 6: that's definitely. Yeah, they can control it with medication. I
Speaker 6: don't think that they should be letting him out so soon. Definitely.
Speaker 6: And because if he stops taking the pills, which a
Speaker 6: lot of paranoid getsophrenics do, because I think the pills
Speaker 6: are the problem, you know, then he can easily go
Speaker 6: back into that headspace. But I mean when you look
Speaker 6: at someone like that, yeah, you might be able to
Speaker 6: rehabilitate somebody who's killing just because of their psychotic But
Speaker 6: there's a difference between psychotic and psychopathic. Oh, and everyone
Speaker 6: knows you cannot rehabilitate a psychopath. It's it's just basic criminology.
Speaker 6: One oh one. And so this is what made me
Speaker 6: laugh about the Olsen Oh we're working on his rehabilitation.
Speaker 6: It's like, what school did you graduate from?
Speaker 5: Well, I think it's it's horrible, even though it's just
Speaker 5: an exercise. Really with Robert Picton that he has a
Speaker 5: parole date. Families will gather together. They will be anxious
Speaker 5: while he has a parole date, which I just don't
Speaker 5: understand why you can't have consecutive sentencing and get it
Speaker 5: and get it out.
Speaker 6: I agree with you. I'm in complete agreement. It's almost
Speaker 6: like he's doing the same time as he would for
Speaker 6: killing one, one or two people. You know, it's there's
Speaker 6: no difference.
Speaker 7: Really.
Speaker 6: I think that in fact, I mean this dangerous offender
Speaker 6: of law. We use it for people who are you
Speaker 6: likely to commit brutal crimes but haven't actually killed. That's
Speaker 6: that's when it's usually used. I think that if you're
Speaker 6: a serial killer, you should qualify for sort of a
Speaker 6: modified dangerous offender where you just can never get out.
Speaker 6: To me, that's common sense.
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Speaker 2: No, we're just necessary. Edi.
Speaker 6: I lost in terms of conditions eighty plus you're the
Speaker 6: worst type of criminal.
Speaker 5: Yeah, ironically that is the most dangerous of a fender.
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, I hate to say it. Yeah, Now
Speaker 5: continue with a couple more cases that you found very
Speaker 5: very unique and probably bolstered some of the ideas that
Speaker 5: you like you talk about in the last chapter and
Speaker 5: then you talk about throughout the book sort of a
Speaker 5: you know, why is this why and why is it
Speaker 5: not known? Why is this information really kind of hard
Speaker 5: to find? Really?
Speaker 6: You know, it's a question I'm asked a lot, and
Speaker 6: I don't know what the system's motive is. It just
Speaker 6: sort of exists, and so I only can really hazard
Speaker 6: guesses to you. I mean, we could say that it's,
Speaker 6: you know, in Canada that we don't sensationalize things like
Speaker 6: they do in the United States or maybe to or
Speaker 6: lesser extent in the United Kingdom. That's kind of the
Speaker 6: positive way of looking at it. But I think that
Speaker 6: there might be this sort of ideas, you know, Canada
Speaker 6: as the peaceful counterpart of America, and and we don't
Speaker 6: want to. We don't want to own up to our
Speaker 6: problems with these type of offenders. And so I think
Speaker 6: I think even in the reactions of a lot of
Speaker 6: just every day Canadians I talk I talk to, they
Speaker 6: don't want to know. And I think, if your everyday
Speaker 6: Canadian is like that, then there's no reason to think
Speaker 6: that people in higher position of authorities would really be
Speaker 6: much different. It could be a cultural thing, and then
Speaker 6: you know, you can justify laws like that make it
Speaker 6: really hard for journalists to get access to information about
Speaker 6: these cases. I mean, we we don't even have pictures
Speaker 6: of these people in court. I don't know what that's about.
Speaker 6: Why we can't have a picture of Robert Pickton in court,
Speaker 6: Why we have to have a draw of them, I
Speaker 6: don't I'm not sure what the purpose of that is.
Speaker 6: I don't know. Maybe it's it's a cultural thing.
Speaker 5: Well, I think that what we have is a mythology
Speaker 5: going on that the number two things going on and
Speaker 5: being Canadian. I've heard as many times if we're America
Speaker 5: is violent and we're not, Well.
Speaker 6: We're not as violence as tho.
Speaker 5: So we don't want to own up to our own
Speaker 5: violence and that that we have the same We don't
Speaker 5: have the same for capital murder rates, but we do
Speaker 5: have Again, we have many cases of incredible murder and
Speaker 5: incredible savagery. So we're not alone in that. But the
Speaker 5: thing is that what I what I think happens in
Speaker 5: America is that it's not of owning up. It's is
Speaker 5: that the film industry and the documentary industry, and the
Speaker 5: newspaper industry and the paper industry is American and they're
Speaker 5: they're not going to shy away from history, current events
Speaker 5: or a good story because they're journalists. And here in
Speaker 5: some way, somehow we've lost our way. CBC has some
Speaker 5: kind of cock eyed notion of bias and and uh
Speaker 5: telling Canadians Canadian stories. Look at if it's his, if
Speaker 5: it's historic, And Bernardo and Jilmalica trial was historic for
Speaker 5: what you could learn from it, I mean incredible missteps
Speaker 5: and bungles and chicanery and injustice. Incredible for for Canada
Speaker 5: to not uh talk about this and and not say endlessly,
Speaker 5: but to discuss the aspects, not the gore. People say, well,
Speaker 5: we don't want to discuss the gore. The gory aspects.
Speaker 5: The gorrious aspects of that of that case were the
Speaker 5: trial and the and the injab this and Karla Hamalka
Speaker 5: being deemed a battered woman, and the chicanery there was
Speaker 5: from there, and a couple and one of the authors, Williams,
Speaker 5: who tried to just tell the truth. Really they tried
Speaker 5: to railroad the guy, not get the guy published. It's
Speaker 5: incredible and what we could have learned from the pict
Speaker 5: in case of anybody bothered to read the book, is amazing,
Speaker 5: but we don't. So I think there's something inherently lazy
Speaker 5: about our first off, our journalists, because they don't demand
Speaker 5: at the courts there's transparency. There's no such thing. But
Speaker 5: at least we're not deriving enough information from trials. We're
Speaker 5: not learning anything from trials where the police bungled, missed opportunities,
Speaker 5: the judiciary acted totally improper. We have all kinds of
Speaker 5: stories like that that, and there's not hundreds, but some
Speaker 5: of the pict in Bernardo Hamalka, the Clifford, those are
Speaker 5: stories that need to be told. And like your book
Speaker 5: with these sixty serial killers, incredible tales that hopefully Canadians
Speaker 5: will read. But I'm sure Americans because they're just interested
Speaker 5: in great stories, will be interested in this book as well.
Speaker 5: It's just incredible murders, all kinds of motivations. But it's
Speaker 5: a phenomena. We've seen movies in the last few years.
Speaker 5: There's so many serial killer series and movies. So it
Speaker 5: is a subject that people are interested in, the criminal minds.
Speaker 6: So yeah, it's interesting, so ubiquitous in our media and
Speaker 6: in our culture. Yet at the same time, there's studies
Speaker 6: showing that the serial murder rates are actually declined.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I like again, I think that we still
Speaker 5: see an escalation of barbarity. You know, we've had all
Speaker 5: kinds of cases. The guy that was torturing his roommate
Speaker 5: and wheeled him into the hospital a lot of eighty pounds,
Speaker 5: you know, this guy went from two around forty to
Speaker 5: eighty pounds. So we're still getting these bizarre cases. And
Speaker 5: again that was a high profile case. But there are
Speaker 5: cases that most people don't hear about. They're just not
Speaker 5: aware of that they just miss, maybe because they're not looking,
Speaker 5: or maybe because also the cases in Canada stretch on
Speaker 5: for five, six, seven years sometimes, so it's hard to
Speaker 5: have a collective memory of what went on when you're
Speaker 5: talking about seven year span, So yeah, are the cases
Speaker 5: with Ford?
Speaker 6: Me that reminds me when you're saying that there is
Speaker 6: a guy who murdered well, he was charged with murdering
Speaker 6: two prostitutes in no actually I think they were strippers
Speaker 6: in Niagara Falls in two thousand and six, and he
Speaker 6: still hasn't had his day in court. The guy's name
Speaker 6: was Michael Duram And I keep waiting for news. You know,
Speaker 6: did he just fall off the radard? And and then
Speaker 6: I looked into it and no, for some reason, he's
Speaker 6: still not on the trial. I mean, this was six
Speaker 6: years ago.
Speaker 7: But what if he's.
Speaker 6: Innocent, he just spent six years locked up waiting trial.
Speaker 5: Well, you know you sorry, go ahead. None other and
Speaker 5: you know the other thing is too. We've saw so
Speaker 5: much fanfare over the Lucamanauta case, incredible amount of stuff
Speaker 5: online and dominating the news stories probably worldwide to a
Speaker 5: great extent for a week or two or three weeks.
Speaker 5: And now that the trial will be many well two
Speaker 5: and a half years, we won't hear anything till the preliminary.
Speaker 5: Then we won't hear anything about the preliminary because of
Speaker 5: our process so we won't hear anything about that case
Speaker 5: for a good couple of years, if not three or
Speaker 5: four years.
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely. The only case that really moved along quickly
Speaker 6: was Russell Williams, and that's just because he confessed and
Speaker 6: he just wanted to get over and done with.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: The minute they start, they start pleading not guilty, or
Speaker 6: there's any sort of complication, that's yeah, you're definitely right.
Speaker 6: It enters that long period. But what amazes me with
Speaker 6: Magnata is the amount of international attention that he gets
Speaker 6: because he puts it on the internet. He does everything
Speaker 6: he's supposed to to meet the qualifications of depraved murderers.
Speaker 6: So he commits acts of necrophilia, he tries to he
Speaker 6: may have cannibalized the guy, or at least tries to
Speaker 6: show us. He puts them with a kitten, he dismembers them,
Speaker 6: all these different things to do that, and it works.
Speaker 6: It goes global, It becomes a viral thing that you know,
Speaker 6: the Canadian cannibal, the Canadian psycho. And then at the
Speaker 6: same time you've got something like the Highway of Tears
Speaker 6: going on in British Columbia, where between well nineteen sixteen
Speaker 6: nine to present. I think Amnesty International has estimated something
Speaker 6: like thirty five plus women have disappeared along the stretch
Speaker 6: of highway in British Columbia. But because the details aren't
Speaker 6: released and you know, there's no story angle like cannibalism
Speaker 6: or necrophilia, nobody really knows about it, and so none
Speaker 6: of the cases get solved. And there's probably been multiple
Speaker 6: serial killers stalking that stretch of highway. The victims are
Speaker 6: mostly Aboriginal and poor, and there's no news angle, so
Speaker 6: you know, never gets resolved.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we're the Colonel Williams and your book
Speaker 5: includes the Colonel Williams case. And what I found interesting
Speaker 5: about the Colonel Williams case is that one of the
Speaker 5: victims was bound and gagged hog tide. And of course,
Speaker 5: again a really great example. And I'm not beating up
Speaker 5: on police at all, because police solve murders at a
Speaker 5: really high rate here at murder capital of Canada, Winnipeg,
Speaker 5: but they also they salt murders, complex murders. They try
Speaker 5: as hard as they can. It's not an easy job.
Speaker 5: It's one of the hardest jobs on earth, that's for sure.
Speaker 5: Definitely homicide cop. But there is some bungling, and there
Speaker 5: are cases of bungling, and with that, they thought that
Speaker 5: the victim, you know, might have tied herself up and
Speaker 5: faked it.
Speaker 6: So that was one of the sexual assaults. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: that's yeah. Unfortunately, I think that's just a insensitivity of
Speaker 6: some police who did not work in sex crimes. You know,
Speaker 6: it was kind of first respondence type thing, and I
Speaker 6: believe that that was the initial impression that that they got.
Speaker 6: I'm not I'm not sure if the actual sex crimes
Speaker 6: investigators came away with that impression.
Speaker 5: Oh no, but that was the first initial But what
Speaker 5: I'm saying is that it's a good example of just
Speaker 5: the inexperience, that's all. And again I don't blame You're right,
Speaker 5: it's exactly what that is. Inexperience starts getting them suspicious
Speaker 5: of absolutely the wrong people. What did you find because
Speaker 5: I'm just interested what you thought about Russell Williams the Colonel.
Speaker 5: I've done a program about BTK and the trophy taking
Speaker 5: that he does very similar to BTK. What did you
Speaker 5: find about what was your take on Russell Williams the Colonel?
Speaker 5: Very fascinating.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that you made the right connection there.
Speaker 6: Whenever I compare Russell Williams to a serial killer, another
Speaker 6: serial killer, I usually go to BTK, sometimes Jerry Brutos
Speaker 6: because of the whole the cross dressing angle and the
Speaker 6: idea of invading someone else's space. I think that's something
Speaker 6: that both of those guys share, is that with wasn't
Speaker 6: so much turned on by the idea that he was
Speaker 6: dressed as a woman in that kind of abstract sense.
Speaker 6: He was more turned on by the idea that he
Speaker 6: was invading the personal clothing of his victims and maybe
Speaker 6: and maybe thinking of what it would be like to
Speaker 6: be them coming home and and finding that someone had
Speaker 6: been in their room and and by putting on their
Speaker 6: their clothing sort of psychologically making that connection to them. Yeah,
Speaker 6: they're both and interestingly they're both military. BTK I think
Speaker 6: was also in the Air Force, wasn't he.
Speaker 5: Bt K was a reverend. I don't know if he
Speaker 5: did a stint in the military, but he was a
Speaker 5: he was a sex offender and then he was then
Speaker 5: he was a practicing reverend. So that's that's what that
Speaker 5: was bt K.
Speaker 6: But air Force, I'm pretty sure of it could have been. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I think the guys.
Speaker 5: Go ahead.
Speaker 6: I think that the two of them almost look at
Speaker 6: look at as like a military operation, you know, a
Speaker 6: special ops. Like they're in their own fantasy where there's
Speaker 6: some kind of super cool commando who infiltrates an enemy
Speaker 6: stronghold and sneaks around and perfectly controls the situation. It's
Speaker 6: almost like part of this you had like kind of
Speaker 6: commando fantasy that they that they combined with their sex
Speaker 6: offender uh status, sorry, sex offender of proclivities. And it's yeah,
Speaker 6: that would be the main comparison that I draw between
Speaker 6: the two is this sort of uh, this fantasy, this
Speaker 6: illusion of being on being on a mission like bt
Speaker 6: K would call his he could call his victims hits
Speaker 6: or the ones that he didn't kill, they would be
Speaker 6: potential hits. They put it in a pseudo military language,
Speaker 6: and so I think I think that influences their fantasy
Speaker 6: and their their thought process.
Speaker 5: Well absolutely. And the thing is too, the colonel and
Speaker 5: then you have a reverend, you know, you have the
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy working at a suicide hotline and his friend
Speaker 5: is uh, you know, true crime super authored and rule.
Speaker 5: You know, it's it's it's interesting the and people. So
Speaker 5: you know, I couldn't tell. I mean what like you could.
Speaker 5: I don't know what they're looking for exactly. But there's
Speaker 5: a lot of people, a lot of military guys. Burl
Speaker 5: bar has been on the program with body Count serial Killer.
Speaker 5: There was in the military. A lot of guys are
Speaker 5: next week Anthony soul he was really good soldier, you know,
Speaker 5: he enlisted, but he was in trouble before and it's
Speaker 5: certainly absolutely in trouble after. But the military is is
Speaker 5: uh is. Lot of these guys are pretty effective military people.
Speaker 6: So yeah, they a lot of them will gravitate towards
Speaker 6: positions where they have authority or power. Like there's been
Speaker 6: a number of police officers. After BTK left the military,
Speaker 6: his job was actually as a compliance officer, you know,
Speaker 6: which is basically someone who goes around finding people because
Speaker 6: their lawns aren't cut to the right, the cut to
Speaker 6: the right to lane thor you know there. He catches
Speaker 6: their dogs and puts their dogs to sleep kind of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 6: a lot of them gravitate towards these any places where
Speaker 6: they can have some measure of control. I think in
Speaker 6: the case of Williams though, it was more that he
Speaker 6: was trying and this is just my guess that he
Speaker 6: was trying to stave off these deep seated desires and
Speaker 6: deviant fantasy that he'd had all his life, and I
Speaker 6: think he became so sort of a workaholic to try
Speaker 6: and compensate for that. And then he gets into middle age,
Speaker 6: he's sort of reached about as high as he can go.
Speaker 6: I mean, he's base commander of Canada's most important air
Speaker 6: force base. He's getting kind of near the end of
Speaker 6: his sex life. I mean, not the complete end, but
Speaker 6: he's starting to he's starting to think about it more.
Speaker 6: Apparently he hadn't had sex with his life for two
Speaker 6: years before the crimes. So I think here was a
Speaker 6: guy who always had this sort of deviant fantasy side
Speaker 6: and had done everything he could to stave it off,
Speaker 6: and he got to this one point in his mid
Speaker 6: forties and he looks around and there's nowhere left to go.
Speaker 6: There's there's there's no other avenues to pursue, and at
Speaker 6: that point he's hit with a crisis and he just
Speaker 6: gives into it. That would that would be my way
Speaker 6: of analyzing that that case.
Speaker 5: But I mean, you know, you talking about you know,
Speaker 5: a certain trigger and that the only issue you know,
Speaker 5: that sounds like a lot more reasonable than when I
Speaker 5: read in McLean's and some Canadian journalists, you know, editorialized
Speaker 5: about Colonel Russell Williams. And I think that they should
Speaker 5: read some books about serial killers, because I know what
Speaker 5: you're saying that that's probably I mean, obviously he wasn't
Speaker 5: killing when he was twenty or thirty or twenty five,
Speaker 5: and he had to have concentrated on his studies. But
Speaker 5: from the book I read from David Gibb, I believe
Speaker 5: his name was is that he just wasn'tn oddball all
Speaker 5: the time, you know, throughout his life anyway, a loner
Speaker 5: sort of a guy that just really was awkward. And
Speaker 5: so yeah, I think these sexual fantasies, he acted upon them,
Speaker 5: and he escalated very very quickly. But you're very well,
Speaker 5: maybe right. The only problem I have is trying to
Speaker 5: because he becomes a colonel, because somebody becomes something of
Speaker 5: importance that somehow or other they must have had some
Speaker 5: kind of you know, twist to their character. They still
Speaker 5: could have been a great military officer, and they still
Speaker 5: could have been, like you say, had these deviant, murderous
Speaker 5: fantasies well early and all it was was obviously he
Speaker 5: suppressed them, and the way to suppress them, the only
Speaker 5: way to suppres them would be keep busy, and certainly
Speaker 5: that's what he was a very busy person.
Speaker 6: So yeah, they compartmentalize, especially when we're talking about organized
Speaker 6: serial killers like Bundy, like BTK, like Russell Williams. They
Speaker 6: have sort of like their normal life, the kind of
Speaker 6: life that you and I would have, where they have
Speaker 6: their relationship and they have their job, and then there's
Speaker 6: the secret life that they have two. And I think
Speaker 6: that in the case of Williams, he just managed to
Speaker 6: focus enough on that first normal life long enough he
Speaker 6: was able to use that to get him through and
Speaker 6: it worked until his mid forties, and then he got
Speaker 6: bored with it or frustrated with it, and when that collapsed,
Speaker 6: the deviant side that he'd been suppressing with the normal
Speaker 6: life that kind of eclipstead, and that would explain the
Speaker 6: rapid acceleration.
Speaker 5: And the thing is though he really we really don't
Speaker 5: know the absolute truth because of the very interesting phenomenas
Speaker 5: that just because he confessed and just because he didn't,
Speaker 5: you know, say I plead not guilty, and dragged the
Speaker 5: judicial system through the you know through the muck. Well,
Speaker 5: actually he would have dragged his family in the military.
Speaker 5: I think he was very conscious of what he had
Speaker 5: done to the military and maybe what would happen to
Speaker 5: his wife and family. So he was not a stupid man.
Speaker 5: And so even though his narcissism was, you know, was
Speaker 5: very strong, with these guys, he thought he was untouchable.
Speaker 5: That's why he made, you know, the big grand errors
Speaker 5: that he did do. The thing is I think that
Speaker 5: there's some other things going on there that he realized
Speaker 5: that the military was not going to have where he
Speaker 5: would plead not guilty and they would drag this out
Speaker 5: for a couple of years. And so there's another part
Speaker 5: of every I think every serial killer, as you can
Speaker 5: attest to, is different, even though it does share some.
Speaker 6: Characteristic certainly certainly very very good point. Often what I'm
Speaker 6: asked when I come on these sorts of programs, They'll say, so,
Speaker 6: tell me what are these guys all have in common?
Speaker 6: And usually I have to pull out an answer about
Speaker 6: you know that typically they have a strong fantasy life
Speaker 6: that you know, we're power and violence views with sexuality.
Speaker 6: But it's not true of all of them, maybe be
Speaker 6: true with most of them. But it's simply not true
Speaker 6: of everyone who who commits serial murders. So sometimes I'm
Speaker 6: tempted to answer, and by no means facetiously, but just
Speaker 6: to answer, well, you know, they kill people, then they stop,
Speaker 6: and then they kill people. That's really what they have
Speaker 6: in common. If you want to take all serial killers
Speaker 6: and put them into a box, that's the one thing
Speaker 6: they have in common.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know you're still what you're getting now
Speaker 5: is people trying to play ketchup. And as a sophisticated
Speaker 5: true crime audience that listens to this program and reads
Speaker 5: true crime books by the major true crime authors like
Speaker 5: yourself and other people, these people know that it just
Speaker 5: because you know this idea that all serial killers have
Speaker 5: tortured animals when they're young. This other idea, and again
Speaker 5: it's a Canadian idea, and I cursed the development of
Speaker 5: this is that now that your boss can be psychopathic.
Speaker 5: So we take the word psychopathic and we take the
Speaker 5: teeth right out of it, because apparently your boss can be,
Speaker 5: and the guy your neighbor, and your husband and you
Speaker 5: can be. And so it takes any kind of magnitude
Speaker 5: or any kind of importance out of the term psychopathic killer.
Speaker 5: And like you were talking before, there's a huge difference
Speaker 5: between Vincent Lee and Sidney Tearheues or Luca Magnauta or
Speaker 5: other serial killers or any of these other serial killers
Speaker 5: in Canada, because they're far more scary than the person
Speaker 5: that did not have an intent to kill. Certainly I
Speaker 5: can admit to that. And whether they can respond to
Speaker 5: medication or not, it's not. The other person is personification
Speaker 5: of evil. That's what these serial wheelers are. Clifford Olson's
Speaker 5: and Bernardo's and the Pictons and the tear Hues and Twitchell's.
Speaker 5: These people are just evils and that's the scary part.
Speaker 5: They look and as we're seeing with Luca Magnauta and
Speaker 5: Twitchell and some of these other people, sometimes they look
Speaker 5: pretty handsome, pretty normal, pretty boy next door and that's
Speaker 5: disarming for people, you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's kind of part of if we're
Speaker 6: getting back to serial killers, because I mean, not a
Speaker 6: it doesn't seem to have been one, at least he
Speaker 6: hasn't been linked to other murders. But we get back
Speaker 6: to the idea of serial killers. I mean, if they
Speaker 6: were walking around with fangs dripping blood, and you know,
Speaker 6: red eyes, they wouldn't be a serial killer because they
Speaker 6: wouldn't have gotten away with.
Speaker 7: Their first murder.
Speaker 6: It's that it's the very ability to wear that mask
Speaker 6: where people overlook you, which makes you successful as a
Speaker 6: serial murderer in the first place. So it's almost like
Speaker 6: a a Darwinistic process. If you don't have the proper facade,
Speaker 6: you will be weeded out after your first murder.
Speaker 5: Well, the thing is, like I say, I don't think
Speaker 5: that always that there is a you know, there's all
Speaker 5: kinds of people that are suspected of other murders, and
Speaker 5: I think that's where it ends. And we know that.
Speaker 5: You know, in American law, there's some constraints to continually
Speaker 5: questioning somebody after they are convict. Did You'd still have
Speaker 5: to have reasonable amount of evidence, not just the assumption
Speaker 5: that this guy must have killed. Before I spoke to
Speaker 5: the arresting lead homicide detective, he said, well, it's one
Speaker 5: thing to say it, and certainly we entertain the thought,
Speaker 5: but it's another thing to prove it. And unless he's
Speaker 5: going to confess where you get the information, you know,
Speaker 5: if there's no body, then what do you do? And
Speaker 5: we have to think that there are certainly serial killers
Speaker 5: who were more than capable of disposing of bodies. We
Speaker 5: talk about Jeffrey Dahmer and Gaysey, there was certainly others
Speaker 5: that whether they were throwing them in rivers or burying
Speaker 5: them successfully or burning them in the back, there's a
Speaker 5: lot of people that least attempted to dispose of their
Speaker 5: victims completely.
Speaker 6: So, well, there's how many guys like David Parker Ray.
Speaker 6: Probably I consider him to be the sickest serial killer
Speaker 6: that I'm aware of. I'm sure your listeners are familiar
Speaker 6: with him. They still haven't found any bodies from him,
Speaker 6: but they just have videotape it and showing that he
Speaker 6: committed at least one murder, and then evidence of the
Speaker 6: testimony of his colleagues saying, yeah, he said he killed
Speaker 6: about sixty people, but he was so good at hiding
Speaker 6: bodies that they still haven't found any of them. It
Speaker 6: was really only the fact that one of his victims
Speaker 6: escaped that the world even have to know about him,
Speaker 6: because he was into his sixties when this was happening.
Speaker 6: So the question I then asked, is what about guys
Speaker 6: like David Parker Ray where the victim doesn't escape the
Speaker 6: serial killers who are that competent and we just never
Speaker 6: know the exist We all just have a bunch of
Speaker 6: missing people. Are people who are the missing missing as
Speaker 6: a term that's been coined lately, where they're not even
Speaker 6: reported missing in the first place.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well that's it, And I mean these serial killers
Speaker 5: are notorious for choosing the marginalized in society. As I
Speaker 5: put in my book as well, it's the it's not
Speaker 5: only the street prostitutes again, the people that have missed
Speaker 5: the least, but talk the homosexuals traveling on buses, the
Speaker 5: homosexual prostitute. So it's the homeless, the alcoholics, the people
Speaker 5: that have been separated from their families and overworked and
Speaker 5: somewhat skeptical police as well. So yeah, a lot of
Speaker 5: people aren't even reported. So where have they gone and
Speaker 5: what has been their fate?
Speaker 6: Certainly, and I do actually have a chapter on the
Speaker 6: book on that about high risk victims and give examples
Speaker 6: of offenders that have targeted them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, it's I mean, it's good that you've done
Speaker 5: that as well with this rather than just another endless
Speaker 5: report of this victim and that victim, there has to
Speaker 5: be some discussion there has to be something learned from this,
Speaker 5: and I'm sure that you have come to some conclusions
Speaker 5: after all of this as well. What would you think
Speaker 5: is your most profound conclusion after doing all this, you know,
Speaker 5: this disturbing research for this book.
Speaker 6: I think that my most profound conclusion is that we
Speaker 6: have to analyze these people on many more levels than
Speaker 6: we're actually doing a lot of the times they're analyzed
Speaker 6: criminologically or psychologically, but I think that we also have
Speaker 6: to take a look at how they react and to
Speaker 6: to their society and how they're influenced by the society
Speaker 6: around them. So I think that that we need to
Speaker 6: look at them as sociological entities more too, which the
Speaker 6: Canadian author Elliott Layton did. I mean, it's very easy
Speaker 6: to describe someone as a medical construct, you know that, oh,
Speaker 6: as part of their brain doesn't work, or they are
Speaker 6: they are borderline personality, or you know, they are a
Speaker 6: visionary type serial killer. And the tendency is to put
Speaker 6: them in these kind of boxes because it helps sell textbooks.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: But at the end of the journey, I realized that
Speaker 6: these boxes, I mean, though they are they have some
Speaker 6: use in reality, what we're looking at is we are
Speaker 6: just like any other sector of humankind. We're looking at
Speaker 6: people who are highly individual. They just happen to share
Speaker 6: the same hobby of killing people.
Speaker 7: But if you have.
Speaker 6: People that all participate in gymnastics or making model aeroplanes,
Speaker 6: I mean they're going to share some things in common,
Speaker 6: there's gonna be overlaps, but they're still going to be
Speaker 6: vastly different. So in order to understand a serial killer,
Speaker 6: you don't do it by taking him and putting him
Speaker 6: into one of several frameworks. I think you have to
Speaker 6: almost dissect them and look at his individual components and understand.
Speaker 7: Or her his or her.
Speaker 6: You have to understand him as a as an individual.
Speaker 6: And then once we get to doing that, maybe we'll
Speaker 6: have some insight where boxes will kind of appear to us,
Speaker 6: you know, rather than forcing them into organized or disorganized
Speaker 6: or visionary missionary, hedonist power control these kind of typologies.
Speaker 5: Yeah, those descriptions like you say, I have some value,
Speaker 5: but beyond just rudimentary, just very elementary. The person that
Speaker 5: I spoke with for a year was more than willing
Speaker 5: to talk to journalists, and lots of journalists refused because
Speaker 5: they didn't want to be I think they just didn't
Speaker 5: want to be involved in the case and it was
Speaker 5: very gruesome and this guy was like celebrity obsessed this character.
Speaker 5: But the thing is is that this person now still
Speaker 5: wants to talk. There's been no He had fanfare for
Speaker 5: eight years in the media. Sometimes he would contact the
Speaker 5: media and they would print the story about this flesh
Speaker 5: eating disease and that he's still he's innocent. And this
Speaker 5: is before the trial, so he was used to getting
Speaker 5: that type of attention. Now, if they sent trained people
Speaker 5: from the opp and the RCMP were trained by FBI
Speaker 5: criminal profilers and students of criminology, then get a hands
Speaker 5: on on the worst offenders that they would be dealing
Speaker 5: with and to be studying. And I really think that
Speaker 5: the serious crime is where Canada fails to recognize the
Speaker 5: patterns of the rapists and the people that will escalate
Speaker 5: in their behaviors so they're very violent, are sometimes considered
Speaker 5: not so violent, or in the Vincent Lee case, they're
Speaker 5: predicting a one percent chance of reoffending. This is ridiculous.
Speaker 5: You know, some kind of odds of reoffending.
Speaker 6: Yeah, how do you determine that? But honestly, it sounds
Speaker 6: other arbitrary to.
Speaker 5: Me, he's.
Speaker 6: You know, yeah, I mean still, I don't see how
Speaker 6: they arrive at that. What it's like almost almost like
Speaker 6: I said, well, what's the lowest number we can we
Speaker 6: can put? You know, obviously they they must believe he's
Speaker 6: not a danger. They must believe it. And I think
Speaker 6: that as long as he stays on the pills, he
Speaker 6: probably isn't. But we all know that there are people
Speaker 6: who are mentally ill that because of their mental illness,
Speaker 6: at some point stopped taking the medication.
Speaker 5: But you've got to admit of all the schizophrenics, all
Speaker 5: the people suffering from schizophrenia, and certainly there's been some
Speaker 5: insane killers, but they're very, very rare, even in Canada,
Speaker 5: where insanity is an easier thing, like we saw that.
Speaker 5: I don't know if his name is Turcott, the doctor
Speaker 5: that stabbed his kids to death, but it's a joke
Speaker 5: that that guys temporarily insane, right, you know, he was depressed,
Speaker 5: so he stabbed his kids to death. I don't buy it,
Speaker 5: and American courts won't buy it. In most courts will
Speaker 5: not buy that stretching of the definition of insanity. Vincent Lee, Yes,
Speaker 5: definitely insane. There was another case in Winnipeg where this
Speaker 5: was a cannibal did not evade captures, so by definition
Speaker 5: his bizarre behavior, he didn't try to hide the fact.
Speaker 5: So that was the definition of insanity. But it's very
Speaker 5: rare for somebody to be designated as insane and then
Speaker 5: not culpable or not responsible for the murders. But we routinely,
Speaker 5: which is the scary part, and we've spoken about it,
Speaker 5: is it routinely will let out double murderers or again
Speaker 5: murdered reduced to manslaughter. We don't know the details by
Speaker 5: the time it gets to the paper, by the time
Speaker 5: it survives of wader or the preliminary what information is
Speaker 5: withheld from the judge, what the information's with help from
Speaker 5: the pubb look about the true nature of these people.
Speaker 5: So I think what's happening is that we need to
Speaker 5: understand as much, especially when the person's willing to talk.
Speaker 5: Clifford Olsen was willing to talk, even though he's a
Speaker 5: disgusting human being, he was willing to talk. So you
Speaker 5: have to get first off, those criminals, those serial killers,
Speaker 5: those people, those rapists that are willing to talk and
Speaker 5: listen to them. Number one to learn. I mean instead
Speaker 5: of listening to psychiatric evaluations from short interviews with people
Speaker 5: who may not be maybe disingenuous. So I think when
Speaker 5: you really have somebody wants to talk endlessly, req speak,
Speaker 5: converse and try to learn something from these serial killers
Speaker 5: that can be some value when we're looking at other
Speaker 5: people that may be getting into this kind of behavior
Speaker 5: and becoming potential serial killers, I would think.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a point that I like to bring up too.
Speaker 6: I mean, we've been doing a lot of bashing of
Speaker 6: the Canadian legal system, and I do definitely agree with
Speaker 6: the Americans having consecutive sentences. I think that's a very
Speaker 6: smart way to go about it. But I do find
Speaker 6: that sometimes that in the United States they'll go too
Speaker 6: far to the other extreme, where you'll have a serial
Speaker 6: killer like Vince Lee who is psychotic. And I'm thinking
Speaker 6: specifically of Richard Trenton Chase, the Vampire of Sacramento, And
Speaker 6: here's a guy he believed that because the soap on
Speaker 6: a soap dish was gooey, that it meant that there
Speaker 6: were UFOs turning his blood into dust, and so therefore
Speaker 6: he had to drink blood to replenish his supply.
Speaker 7: So that's exactly what he did.
Speaker 6: He was completely schizophrenic, and he went out just in
Speaker 6: his own neighborhood, going into homes and killing people and
Speaker 6: cannibalizing them and drinking their blood. And he's given the
Speaker 6: debt penalty. And I think that's going.
Speaker 7: To the other extreme. It's like you're taking a guy
Speaker 7: who is.
Speaker 6: Clearly mentally ill and committing as crimes motivated by a complete,
Speaker 6: unwilling misunderstanding of reality. And this is a person that
Speaker 6: should probably be confined to a psychiatric institute for the
Speaker 6: rest of their life. Yes, But to execute them, it's
Speaker 6: too far in the other direction for me. So I'd
Speaker 6: like to find a happy medium between the two.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't believe in the death tonally because I
Speaker 5: don't believe in making even one error where someone's dead,
Speaker 5: and they make too many errors of courts make errors.
Speaker 5: Here we have all these checks and balances and appeals,
Speaker 5: but you know what mistakes are made. And I think
Speaker 5: that if you can spend the rest of your life
Speaker 5: in prison, I think that has to be enough punishment.
Speaker 5: A cage all by yourself has to be enough punishment.
Speaker 5: So I don't believe in that. So I do agree
Speaker 5: with you, and they once they have, even sometimes DNA
Speaker 5: evidence or a confession that's been retracted, they still sometimes
Speaker 5: are very very hesitant to let that person out. So
Speaker 5: it's almost the opposite of Canada. We're looking for the
Speaker 5: uses our latest serial killer in Winnipeg. They don't have
Speaker 5: much to talk about, so they're talking about his harsh
Speaker 5: upbringing already. I'm going, Wow. You know, it is a
Speaker 5: different animal than America. I think the media there and
Speaker 5: the people there have seen that rehabilitation really doesn't work
Speaker 5: with these people, and that's why they keep seeing endless, vicious, senseless,
Speaker 5: random murder there. And hopefully we don't have to have
Speaker 5: an epidemic of that before we start changing things, because,
Speaker 5: as you know, it, when you get emotional and not
Speaker 5: very logical and reasonable, then you start making laws that
Speaker 5: hurt all kinds of people and gold the other way.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think there has to be a happy
Speaker 5: medium absolutely with insane. I think if you if you're
Speaker 5: the definition in a lot of American states are is
Speaker 5: that you're you're insane but guilty, so that they really
Speaker 5: don't I think that the vampire killer that you were
Speaker 5: talking about to Chase, I think that was the case,
Speaker 5: no matter what, that's what they didn't care. Or there
Speaker 5: are lots of states where it doesn't matter if you're insane.
Speaker 5: They'll clearly say yeah, insane, but still doesn't matter.
Speaker 6: So but you get blood and that's evil, so you
Speaker 6: deserve to die. Uh, And a lot of people were
Speaker 6: saying that about Vince Lee. I remember there's being calls, Oh,
Speaker 6: if there's one person who have to die, it's this guy,
Speaker 6: because they're looking at well, he cut his head off
Speaker 6: and eight parts of his face. They're looking at the specifics,
Speaker 6: the details of the crime, and they're not looking at
Speaker 6: the motivation or what sparked it. That really determines the course,
Speaker 6: you know, the core of a person's character. And in
Speaker 6: the case of this man, he deserved to die less
Speaker 6: than people who've committed far less barbarous murderers because he
Speaker 6: was extremely psychotic at the time that he did it.
Speaker 6: And although I do agree with you, I don't support
Speaker 6: the death Kinnelty either, and not necessarily just because of
Speaker 6: the whole idea of executing an innocent person, which is terrible,
Speaker 6: but I also think that it gives some of these
Speaker 6: people an escape. There's lots of serial killers who I've
Speaker 6: read about and I can't name them off the top
Speaker 6: of my head, but it comes up all the time.
Speaker 6: They are perfectly fine with dying. They'd rather do that
Speaker 6: than spend their life in a cage, which is what
Speaker 6: Bernardo has to do here. You know, he's basically locked
Speaker 6: in the closet for the rest of his life. And
Speaker 6: to me, you're taking away their control and you're making
Speaker 6: it last over a period of time, whereas if you're
Speaker 6: executing them, you're bringing it to an end for them.
Speaker 5: But you do hear that call in Canada as well,
Speaker 5: and I think what it is is just it's an
Speaker 5: emotional response to the barbarity of the crime itself, and
Speaker 5: so they there's a knee jerk reaction, and the death
Speaker 5: penalty is being you know, lots of states are dropping
Speaker 5: it so because people it takes maybe fifteen years or
Speaker 5: seventeen years to actually execute somebody, and then the appeal
Speaker 5: process is so expensive that they really can't afford to
Speaker 5: do it. So there's a couple confluence of things going on,
Speaker 5: two or three things going on that are making the
Speaker 5: death penalty less less appealing. So but yeah, I do
Speaker 5: agree though that, and I think that the Americans have
Speaker 5: done a good job. The FBI were the first people with,
Speaker 5: like I said, Robert K. Wrestler and John Douglas, and
Speaker 5: they went in and interviewed thirty six of the worst
Speaker 5: serial killers and that's how they create criminal profiling. I
Speaker 5: think it's time to not just take a look at
Speaker 5: that criminal filing and just let it sit. I think
Speaker 5: it's time to expand upon, expound upon that because there
Speaker 5: are these unique characteristics and I think they can develop
Speaker 5: a bigger sort of description instead of such a narrow
Speaker 5: description of what a serial killer is. And I think
Speaker 5: there's overlapping. And again it's labels don't do much. But
Speaker 5: I think the idea that we have to be able
Speaker 5: to learn something by speaking with these people, because it's
Speaker 5: such an aberration. We can't you can't approach logic with
Speaker 5: these people. It's they're not they're not like regular folks.
Speaker 5: It's not that we all have this potential in us
Speaker 5: to be like these people. There's no way. And you've
Speaker 5: done the research. These people are so far away from
Speaker 5: the regular Joe, you and I that that's why it's fascinating.
Speaker 6: There is a logic, it's just not our logic when
Speaker 6: you were able when you're able to get into their heads,
Speaker 6: and I have I have been able to get there,
Speaker 6: and suddenly you can see their point of view. But
Speaker 6: it means taking a lot of the parts about yourself,
Speaker 6: a lot of your ideas, and a lot of your
Speaker 6: morality and the things that repel you, and you just
Speaker 6: remove them, and then you put yourself through that person's
Speaker 6: life situation. And I have been able to get inside
Speaker 6: their heads and I can see the logic of why
Speaker 6: they're doing what they're doing, even if it's still ultimately
Speaker 6: I find it morally reprehensible. That's even the insane ones
Speaker 6: like Vince Lee. He saw the guy on the bus
Speaker 6: as a demon that had to be killed and he
Speaker 6: had to eat parts of them to stop him from regenerating.
Speaker 6: Now that's completely ridiculous if you're perceiving reality as it is.
Speaker 6: But if you're perceiving reality as he is, which he
Speaker 6: believes is reality, then logically it does make sense that
Speaker 6: he would do what he did.
Speaker 5: Well. The other thing I'm really worried about is that
Speaker 5: I'm not sure that we have any experience and there
Speaker 5: is any really good examples of taking somebody that was
Speaker 5: capable of what Vincent Lee was capable of doing in
Speaker 5: terms of going that far into his altered reality and
Speaker 5: then assuring the public, especially you know, especially the poor
Speaker 5: mother of the victim, to say, listen, you know, we're
Speaker 5: absolutely confident from our experience from the last time we
Speaker 5: had a Vincent Lee, that this medication is absolutely fool proof.
Speaker 5: Nothing can happen. He could never get a resistance to it.
Speaker 5: He can't be playing us because we're so clever. I
Speaker 5: just hate to see this thing back far. And you
Speaker 5: know what, I'd hate to see it work because you
Speaker 5: know what will happen when Vincent Lee is cured. There's
Speaker 5: going to be a lot of people not going into
Speaker 5: the insane asylum for very long. And we already have
Speaker 5: people that are claiming or the least the psychiatric institution saying,
Speaker 5: this person shouldn't be even in here. This person doesn't
Speaker 5: belong here. There's nothing wrong with them. So that's what
Speaker 5: I just think that that you you look at the
Speaker 5: battered women syndrome, which was which is first in the
Speaker 5: US and then in a case is that I can
Speaker 5: agree with in Canada where you say, yes, the battered woman,
Speaker 5: she killed her her her husband or her boyfriend, because
Speaker 5: of and then you look in a short period of
Speaker 5: time at Carla Hamalka is a battered woman, never hap
Speaker 5: with you know, so you can see my point anyway
Speaker 5: that you know, once the lawyers get it and twisted
Speaker 5: and twisted, we can have an altered state of reality
Speaker 5: again on what that law was intended to do, what
Speaker 5: it really should apply to. And then Carla Hamalkas you know,
Speaker 5: somehow rehabilitated.
Speaker 6: I guess, yeah, definitely, I guess There's always going to
Speaker 6: be some slip in the system unfortunately, but we can
Speaker 6: always strive to make it better.
Speaker 5: Absolutely well. You know, with books like yourself, we can
Speaker 5: get an idea of what's gone on in history in
Speaker 5: terms of serial killers in the Canada not really well
Speaker 5: known for serial killers, but after this it's really fascinating
Speaker 5: unique and as we said before, Canada really can compete sometimes.
Speaker 5: So your book is North Cold, North Killers, Canadian serial
Speaker 5: Murder and Lee Mellarth. So thank you very much, Lee
Speaker 5: for a great interview and a great book, and I
Speaker 5: wish you all the best of luck with this and
Speaker 5: hope to talk to you again soon.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Thanks. It was less like an interview and more like
Speaker 6: a conversation. And I consider let us success. Thank you
Speaker 6: very much, thank you.
Speaker 5: And now and where is this available? Obviously? It's Amazon,
Speaker 5: Barnes and Noble Chapters in Canada. And you have a
Speaker 5: website that people can go to as well.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but you can't purchase my book through it. I
Speaker 6: would just go to Yeah, you're Amazon, Barnes and Nobles Chapters.
Speaker 7: Uh, if you get.
Speaker 6: In Canada, you'll probably find it on the bookshelves of
Speaker 6: Chapters and Indigo in the States. I'm not sure because
Speaker 6: I haven't been to bookstores. Lucky you might, you may
Speaker 6: get lucky, but I'd say Amazon's a pretty safe pat absolutely.
Speaker 5: Now is it an ebook form as of yet or
Speaker 5: is that soon to come or it's already.
Speaker 6: It is an ebook form? O?
Speaker 5: Great?
Speaker 6: And uh?
Speaker 5: Do uh? You are you on Facebook? And do are
Speaker 5: you interested in followers on Facebook? So I will always
Speaker 5: tell people look them up on face follow them on Facebook.
Speaker 6: Yeah, look for Cold North Killers. It has a page
Speaker 6: I'm actually working on right now, a follow up book
Speaker 6: called Rampage, which is about mass murders and mass murders
Speaker 6: and spree killers in Canada. I've got a page for
Speaker 6: that coming soon, so I'll be talking about that on
Speaker 6: the Cold North Killers page. So yeah, Facebook, Cold North Killers.
Speaker 6: And anytime there's there's an update involving crimes or serial
Speaker 6: killers in Canada, I usually do I post an update.
Speaker 5: Right. Well, very good Lee, thank you very much for
Speaker 5: coming on the program, and definitely get a hold of
Speaker 5: me when your next project, Rampage is getting close or
Speaker 5: when it's going to be released, and we'll gab you
Speaker 5: back on. We'll have another good interview and talk about that.
Speaker 6: Okay, can't wait.
Speaker 5: Okay, thank you very much, Lee. Have a good night,
Speaker 5: you two then bye, thank you, good night.