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Speaker 1: Okay, the first the first episode of crime pays, but

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herpetology doesn't. I guess it depends. I don't know. This

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is this is my only fourth or fifth time I

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dip my toes in herpetology once in a while. Anyway,

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I'm here with Kyle Elmore. How did did you consider itself?

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I hate that word amateur at this point.

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Speaker 2: No, probably not amateur because it's been it's been twelve

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to thirteen years of doing this constantly for my enjoyment.

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So there's definitely that amateur phases into it. But basically

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I wouldn't know. But I'm not educated in herpetology other.

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Speaker 1: Than I'm self educated and Bonnie, I don't have any

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fucking degrees. I will probably tell people, you know what

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it was that Patrick asked me that, He's like, are

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you do you have any degrees? I was like, I'm

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fully unaccredited. Y. You know, I've made everything I can

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do to stay out of that academic world. Yeah, I've

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done everything I can, you know, But Clint is an

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actual herptology He's a biologist.

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Speaker 2: I think he has biology background, but you know, he's,

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you know, I think a curator. He works with the

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herpetology department at the zoo and background and they got.

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Speaker 1: A handler's license. Sure. But anyway, so here we are,

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so we're talking about we're talking about herping. And for

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those of you who who don't know, it's not in

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reference to cold source. It's in reference to reptiles and

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basically doing what I do with plants, going out and

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surveying and collecting data and photographs and studying the living world.

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It's an element of the living world, and I think

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for a lot of people that do it, it's probably

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an antidote to the poison of the modern consumer death cult,

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which I'm always ranting about sometimes too long. So anyway, Kyle,

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how are you doing it? Thank you for coming on

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to talk about all this though.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great, you know. As you know, we had

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a great day out in the field the other day

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and we got to see a lot of cool.

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Speaker 1: Stuff and twelve mili yeah, well Lam propeled this and

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fucking how many indigos it was.

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Speaker 2: Eight or nine? Yeah, we kind of lost lost track

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of that, and it was a pretty epic day in

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the field. If you know anything about looking for milk

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snakes down here, if you're a person who comes out

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of town, you might you might find one if you're lucky.

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But you know, if you know what you're doing, you

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can set yourself up for the success that we had.

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Speaker 1: Well blew my mind was that it was it was

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habitat that like I wouldn't be looking for for plants,

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you know, yeah, like like I I mean, I found

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interesting shit there, you know, I found some brilliant I

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found like three plants I'd never seen before in situ,

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which was really cool. Actually four including Heimia, that one

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that all the drug bros Are always mentioning because it's

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psychoactive lith racy. But uh, but there was so much,

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you know, there was so much going on there in

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terms of reptiles and amphibians. It was crazy, man, it

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was really cool to see.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's it's surprising the marginal habitat and

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how many animals can be in that. You know, you

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don't really know, you know, just looking at it on

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the surface, like what really lives in there, until you,

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you know, attack it with the right materials and set it,

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set it up so that you can actually discover what's

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living there.

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Speaker 1: So where are you? How did you get into this?

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Where are you from?

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Speaker 2: So I'm from Houston and born and raised there and

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still live there. And the way I got into this

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is as a kid. You know, my father would always

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encourage me to go spend time outside. Now I don't now,

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I kind of wonder if that's just to get me

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out of the house as a as a kid, but

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you know, I would go and walk along this drainage

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ditch in our neighborhood, and all along there were you know,

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turtles and frogs and water snakes. And I'd been given

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these field guides and I'd look in those field guides

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and I'd see what kind of animals are living out there,

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and I'd want to go encounter them, you know. And

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of course, in our in our drainage ditch in the neighborhood,

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it was really limited in the species that were there,

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but it was still fun to go out and catch them.

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And I'd always hope for something different. But then, you know,

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you're doing that as a kid, right, you know that

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high school comes along and your priorities and thoughts change.

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And I stopped doing it for a while, stopped going

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outside and like finding finding snakes until I was probably

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I want to say, twenty four or so, twenty four

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to twenty five and I was on a trip with

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my dad and I found a coach with was a

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snake that I'd never seen before, and it rekindled this

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big passion in me to go out and see more

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stuff that I'd never seen and I've only seen in books,

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and that basically started me on this path that's really snowballed,

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kind of out of control. Coach with maskakofu, Yeah, master cofus.

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This was Flagellum tastasius subspecies. Actually I think they're a

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culiber now so formerly masterkophus. Some people argue it's still

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mass to coo, but yeah, it's a caliber Flagellum tastasius.

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The Western coach whip is kind of what sparked me

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getting back into it. Finding that and then being like, Wow,

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I wonder what else I can find if I spend

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my time at it. And then you know, finding this

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kind of subculture of herpers and people who are also

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interested in it really kind of enlightened me as to

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what methods there were to go out and actually discover

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some of these animals and then started my journey, you know,

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hanging out with other people that did this and then put.

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Speaker 1: It in my own niche there's been a crossover throughout

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my life with herpers and with reptile people, and shed

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a lot of plant people I know here in South

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Texas are in the reptiles too. Like I was telling

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Ken King about some of the stuff we saw and

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he was like, oh, yeah, that's great, black spotted newtes.

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I've seen those, yeah, there, you know, and he knows

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all about them. And it's it's like, you know, with

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my friends that are in the mushrooms of my cology,

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Like I love going out with them and I'll be

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looking at plants and I'll learn a little bit about

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what they're into and then but it's all it's all

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like embracing this living world. It's all about going outside

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and actually learning, exercising your mind and studying the diversity

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of life and then thinking about you know, natural selection.

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How these different forms have you know, evolved off the

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same common ancestor and in response to certain different different

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conditions environmental conditions, climatic conditions, whatever. It's really cool to see.

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But so during high school you kind of weren't into this.

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It tapered off during high school.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, you know, So I moved when I was in

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middle school and moved to a new area and and

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I distinctly remember, you know, it was late middle school,

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and I had been spending time outside, you know, and

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I would get made fun of because it's like, well,

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why do you why do you have all these scratches

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all over your legs and arms? It's because I was

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spending all my time outside in the woods's fucking looking

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for you know, looking.

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Speaker 1: Why you sitting in a basement playing video games?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. So, you know, and as a young kid,

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you're you're very easily influenced, you know. You know, nobody

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likes getting made fun of. So yeah, so I start

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doing that, you know, trying to fit in, and obviously

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that's not where I fit in, you know, And I

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feel like I definitely with this this group of people,

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you know, going out and finding stuff, I fit in

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a lot better.

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Speaker 1: How'd you find how'd you find your crew? When you

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were twenty four? Like? How did you find other people

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that were in.

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Speaker 2: The So the first thing I did. So there was

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an old forum, you know, forums were kind of the

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thing before Facebook and Instagram, and it's called field Herb

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Forum and they used to have these different chapters you

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know throughout the US, and the Southwestern or South Central

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chapter had a meet up and I went to go

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meet up with some of these other dudes, you know,

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I didn't not even them, I knew online. So it's like, okay, well,

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let's go over here. And I went to Louisiana and

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they were starting out they were going to go to

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a zoo and go see Louisiana pine snakes in a zoo.

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And I'm like, I'm not interested in seeing this shit

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in a zoo. I want to go like, you know,

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seeing this stuff out in the wild. So I you know,

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did some herpin on the way and I got there

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a little bit later, and I met up with this guy, Arman,

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and Arman and I are still fast friends, you know,

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years later, but we basically met up and we were

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waiting on the rest of the people and we started

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talking and started talking about canebrake, rattlesnakes and kind of

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our passion for finding those, and really shortly after that

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we'd organized you know, a trip together, you know, and

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I think it was the next year we actually first

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came down to South Texas and we had what we

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thought at the time was an outstanding time. You know,

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I think we probably got maybe twelve snakes over two

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or three days, which, as you can see, is far

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cry from where we're currently at. But yeah, you know,

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I found him and then we've basically been doing stuff

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together and we kind of added several people into the

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fold that have a like minded passion for similar animals.

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Speaker 1: That's fucking that's pretty cool, the dopamine response. But also

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before social media, that's one of the best things about

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social media. I mean there's a lot of negative too,

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you know, like the echo chamber and the shit talking,

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and the opportunities for depression, anxiety, and self hate, you know,

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through comparing yourself to other people are extensive with social media.

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But you can also find your people.

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Speaker 2: You can find your people very easily.

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Speaker 1: Now, would you what did you study when you went

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to college? Would you do so for high school? So?

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Speaker 2: I studied biochemistry. It's my undergraduate degree. And in that process,

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you know, you have to take organic chemistry, and I

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think that was probably a junior year or so I

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was taken organic chemistry and I absolutely loved it. You know,

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something that for me was very intuitive. I felt like

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it just made a lot of sense, and it made

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a lot of sense as to how things in the

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natural world happen, you know, forming chemical bonds, and just

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like how these different compounds came to being and how

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you can manipulate that yourself. So I then decided to

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pursue organic chemistry and graduate school.

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Speaker 1: God damn it, and jealous, fucking wish that she came

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second nature to me. I'm so interested in plant I mean,

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I know a little bit plant chem but it's one

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of like nine different things I want to do on

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any given days, like teach myself working a chemistry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's it. It's something you really can and

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you have to have somebody who knows it and is

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passionate about it and can you know, confer that information

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in a way that is easy for you to grasp,

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you know, because it is a complicated subject. And I

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think I was blessed to have a good teacher that

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really roped me into it.

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Speaker 1: Whenever I've looked at it, I always look at I'm

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always I always have questions. I can't just read out

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of a book and be like okay, and then I

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always want to ask, quite like why is it like this?

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Why is this? And then it gets me thinking about

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other things. For me, that's the most important part to

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learning and when people ask me, because people will write

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me and they'll be like, how do I learn botany?

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Like what books do you recommend? Field guides? I'm like,

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I don't fucking recommend field guides. Go the fuck outside

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and ask questions, think about this shit like you need

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I need to see the gears in your head journey

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like you can't. And I think that's what school fucks

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us up at, at least in this.

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Speaker 2: Country, is just memorize shit, Yes.

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Speaker 1: Memorized, don't fucking think about it. Memorize so that you

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can get a good job and you'll be able to

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you know, you'll be able to grind hard and have

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a fucking McMansion or whatever. Stupid shit where it's like

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that takes all the joy out of it, Like that

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takes the passion out, Like I want to think, I

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want to fucking create. I want to think about that.

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You know. That's and when I started approaching learning BONDI

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that way, it changed everything. Like you're out on an

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ecosystem or a landscape, like what does it why does

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it look like this what it looked like two hundred

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years ago? Why is this growing? Here. Why is this

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growing here? Why do these things like to live under this?

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What is I mean? I think that's and that's when,

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especially with something like chemistry, you need like a tutors.

241
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They are someone get this bond with this, yeah, yeah,

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and that at least gets the ball rolling.

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Speaker 2: And you know, organic was one of those you know

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you mentioned like you know, it's you got to go

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memorize all this stuff. And that's most of the classes

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that you'll ever take. It's go. And I think that's

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why doctors are people who are like trying to go

248
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into the medical field, you know, if you're on the

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track in college. That's why organic chemistry is such a

250
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hard subject because you cannot memorize everything. You have to

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develop this intuitive understanding of you know, electron flow and

252
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chemical bonding that allows you to then make inferences, you know,

253
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about what certain things will happen because you cannot memorize

254
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everything there, and you know it definitely it takes you know,

255
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somebody to guide you through that and get you kind

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of over the hump to having developed that intuitive understanding.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's also easier, like memorization is easy

258
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when you're actually interested. Yeah, but to be interested. You

259
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have to understand why it's interesting because you're talking about

260
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the building blocks of life, or because like with plants,

261
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they're connected to everything else. They're what channel energy from

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the sun to us in every other life form, and

263
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there you learn about their evolution, the context in which

264
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they evolved. No plants an isolated entity. It's tied to

265
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a habitat and ecosystem, other pollonais, et cetera. And I

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think that that's what American education misses out on. Yeah,

267
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you know, the memorized shit. I was the one I

268
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was teaching last semester. I was telling my students. I'm like,

269
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don't do this. I don't want you to fucking memories.

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I want you to think about this stuff. If you're

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not asking me questions, I'm going to get mad at you.

272
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You know, like you got to be thinking if you think,

273
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if you're asking questions, that tells me you're thinking about it,

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you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But so then so you got into chemistry and it

277
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was just your jam. It was like it was obviously

278
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giving you a little dopamine shot.

279
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Speaker 2: Or oh for sure, yeah you were. It was very satisfying. Yeah,

280
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and uh yeah, I went to graduate school for that

281
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ended up with the Masters in organic chemistry. Like I

282
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was telling you earlier, I was going for a PhD.

283
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And my advisor resigned, you know, which, you know, especially

284
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if anybody knows about graduate programs, kind of can put

285
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you in a hard place because if you go to

286
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another group, you know, to do research there, you may

287
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be forced to spend more time in order to you know,

288
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fully uh finish researching a project or an idea. Uh.

289
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And then that you know, can impact your ability to

290
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be funded. And you know you can because after a

291
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certain amount of time, they don't pay for you to

292
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be there anymore, right, Yeah, yeah, So it's basically yeah,

293
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so I left with the masters and uh and yeah

294
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I went uh and I taught chemistry in high school

295
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for a couple of years after that.

296
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Speaker 1: What were your experiences with that was? Because that's like

297
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that seems like a nightmare class when you're in high school.

298
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For most people, we're most a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Of a nightmare to teach too, you know, because the

300
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thing is like, you you can have that passion and

301
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you can be excited to teach it and talk about

302
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the subject, but the reality is like in high school,

303
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if you've got like, let's say you've got fifty students, Uh,

304
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there's probably three to five of those that actually one

305
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you know, they they'll have an interest because it's exciting

306
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to them maybe, but then maybe they also just have

307
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the interest because they want to get good grades. But

308
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that's it's a very small amount of them. The rest

309
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of them are in you know, whatever, you know, and

310
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I can't I can't blame them for because it's the

311
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environment that we've created for them, right you know. Uh,

312
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it's this memorize everything environment that doesn't spark interest, and

313
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you've got to try to you got to try to

314
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light that fire in them, and some of them you

315
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just can't. So it makes it a little bit.

316
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Speaker 1: I just want to shake And what's wrong with you?

317
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Speaker 2: Yeah?

318
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is just a good consumer. You want some

319
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nice shoes and like a shiny truck.

320
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Speaker 2: Yeah that was Ah, that's the thing is that's that's

321
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that that was the stuff they wanted, you know, they

322
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wanted those things. And I'm like, okay, them, that's your

323
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If that's your goal, then at least like learn stuff

324
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well enough that you can go to afford it, you know,

325
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like try to you know, and and hope that maybe

326
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something of interest could sparked meme.

327
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Speaker 1: I wonder, I don't this is like a this is

328
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not it has no relations perhaps obviously, But I wonder

329
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for people that want all the shiny shit in the

330
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mc mansions and are good like that do things that

331
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just they have careers that to me just seem so

332
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incredibly boring. Do most of them have passion for it

333
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or do you think they're just happen to be good

334
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at it because the way their mind works and they

335
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can use it to get money, But it's like killing

336
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,960
their soul. I don't know. Like law, like some forms

337
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,480
of like family law, seems like it would like if

338
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you don't offense to any family law attorneys by the way,

339
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,799
I'm sure there's some cool ones, but if you could

340
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,120
do that, that seems like such a fucking draining, soul

341
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,159
liess job. But there's got to be some people that

342
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enjoy it, but I think there's probably a lot that don't,

343
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:25,919
and it's just as just a ticket.

344
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, well, I think that's like anything, right,

345
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anything that anybody is doing, you can you are going

346
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to find some individuals who are really passionate about it,

347
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and then you have the rest of them, who are

348
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you know, it's just like that's their paycheck, right, you know,

349
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they get through it and maybe they had a proclivity

350
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to some aspect of it or you know, you have

351
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a lot of a lot of people who for better

352
00:16:46,279 --> 00:16:48,879
or worse, uh, you know, had these big dreams and

353
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aspirations in a field, but maybe they weren't actually, you know,

354
00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:55,240
they just didn't have the machinations in their head to

355
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really excel or of.

356
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Speaker 1: Inschasers personal injury. Do you think there's people are like

357
00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:04,680
I love going into work every day working on behalf

358
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,960
of my clients with the network of corrupt and shady

359
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:13,400
MRI for you know, pain clinics MRI blah blah. Who

360
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,079
can give me a bill that I can present to

361
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,519
the insurance company that just goes right up to their limit,

362
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you know, of what they'll pay, And that's just that

363
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gives me dopamine.

364
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Speaker 2: It feels great, sure there is, right, you know that's

365
00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:27,160
and I think that's probably it, right, is a big

366
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,039
dopamine hit of like having that win, you know where

367
00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:32,799
they come out with a lot of money and you know.

368
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Speaker 1: That's when they get the stiffy it's the after right,

369
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,200
So it's just a ticket. Yeah, like the career is

370
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,720
just a ticket. Some of the fucking ambulance chasers down

371
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,759
here are like straight up Saul Goodman. It's amazing, like

372
00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:48,440
gold everything. They've got these you know where their offices are,

373
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,519
you'll pass their office. They got the led billboards, like

374
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:51,680
pictures of their face.

375
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Speaker 2: You know, there's not a single billboard that doesn't have

376
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,440
their face. Yeah, a lot of it. It's about that.

377
00:17:56,599 --> 00:17:58,359
Speaker 1: I love the one. It's just one lady and she

378
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,279
must have a boob job, but it's like for head

379
00:18:00,319 --> 00:18:02,599
and then like her boobs are like right and like

380
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,559
it cuts off just above or just below the where

381
00:18:05,559 --> 00:18:08,359
the cleavage starts. And it's like that is like such

382
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,599
a you're like putting porn on the billboard like that

383
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,680
is you you know that it's like gonna attract you know,

384
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:16,200
and it's.

385
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Speaker 2: Like millions millions, Oh wow, Yeah, I better call her

386
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,480
when I need I have an injury and just the person.

387
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,799
Speaker 1: I want to interact with, right, but uh anyway, yeah,

388
00:18:25,799 --> 00:18:27,200
and I just think about that all the time. I'm

389
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:28,960
like God, because I can't do shit if I'm not

390
00:18:29,759 --> 00:18:33,000
if my head's not in it, I can't. It's just

391
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,119
like fucking tedious to me. It's tedium and I can't

392
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,079
do it where it's like I'm doing this so that

393
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,960
I can have this. It's a ticket, you know, I can't.

394
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:42,279
Mentality doesn't work with me.

395
00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:44,799
Speaker 2: It's it's I don't think it's natural, right, I don't

396
00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:47,279
think that's natural. I think if you have like that

397
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,440
organic uh, it developed, you know, you go back to

398
00:18:50,519 --> 00:18:52,759
something a couple of centuries ago and you you have

399
00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:57,799
this more organic passion that that maybe is struck in people.

400
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,519
You see a need in your community and you want

401
00:19:01,559 --> 00:19:03,839
to go fill that, right, I think that's a lot

402
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,839
more natural process, like well, how can I contribute to

403
00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:08,519
this community? Yeah?

404
00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why back in the days when we were

405
00:19:10,759 --> 00:19:13,559
banging the androthals, that's why it was. That's why we were,

406
00:19:13,759 --> 00:19:16,720
you know, able to fucking dig in the ground, foraging

407
00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:21,279
for fucking bulbs for hours, or chasing chasing analope has

408
00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:23,799
to suck like that's got a hunting analope on foot

409
00:19:23,799 --> 00:19:25,799
with a spear. That has to suck ass. There's got

410
00:19:25,839 --> 00:19:28,559
to be a dopamine response to keep you doing it, right, Yeah.

411
00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:28,759
Speaker 2: For sure.

412
00:19:28,839 --> 00:19:31,039
Speaker 1: Or like taking kids. My mothers take care of their

413
00:19:31,319 --> 00:19:34,160
children because it's it's love and nurture you get you know,

414
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,599
octually posting. Anyways, Sorry, we're going off for rails here,

415
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,039
which I tend to do. But so anyway, so you

416
00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:41,880
taught high school and then what do you end up

417
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,279
doing after that?

418
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 2: So after that, I ended up getting a job at

419
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,039
Exxon and I work in the NMAR lab basically do

420
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,240
analyze polymer spectra for basically, you know, we're getting comonomer

421
00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:59,160
content branching, basically just looking at that for for the

422
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:00,000
research department.

423
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,279
Speaker 1: I'm knocking. He lives in Houston, Okay.

424
00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:03,799
Speaker 2: Ye, he's got a lot of choices.

425
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 1: I worked for a horrible company too. I worked for

426
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,680
Union Pacific and I fucking hated them the whole time.

427
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,160
And it was but it was a fun job and

428
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,240
I loved it. And you know, I was never a

429
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,599
company man. I was like with the fucking workers all

430
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,079
the time. Like that was you know, it was like solidarity.

431
00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:19,240
There was good solidity. Do you have a company that

432
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,079
I don't know what X sounds like. They probably treat

433
00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:24,079
you guys good, but but you pete treated as shitty.

434
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,799
And that was great for solidarity among all different political sides.

435
00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:31,039
I mean, railroaders like to complain and fight, but but

436
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,160
so people still found shit to fight about. But you know, yeah,

437
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,240
I would get these kids lecturing me. They'd be like,

438
00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:39,599
you work for an evil company, And I was like, man, what,

439
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,000
like I'm not, like I'm not towing the line, like

440
00:20:44,039 --> 00:20:46,480
I'm also stealing over time for them and fucking not

441
00:20:46,519 --> 00:20:49,000
saying anybody should do that for their employer. But you know,

442
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,599
it was a Yeah, it was just crazy. Was like,

443
00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:54,480
tell me you've never worked or like interacted with real people,

444
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:57,319
like you're demonizing God, what was it? There was some

445
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,000
fucking strike that just happened a month ago for some

446
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,319
company for Boeing I think it was Boeing workers, And

447
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:05,960
there were all these people being like, you work for

448
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,279
a horrible companies, Like, man, they're the fucking working class,

449
00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:09,160
Like what do you want them to do?

450
00:21:09,279 --> 00:21:11,799
Speaker 2: Like some people, you know, for better or worse, we've

451
00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:13,720
set set our society up like that.

452
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all playing into the poison. That's like, it's

453
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,119
come on, man, like it's pissing in the ocean. When

454
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,359
it comes down to it, it's just, you know, I

455
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,039
hate thats nothing like getting lectured by some fucking twenty

456
00:21:24,039 --> 00:21:26,079
three year old with the life experience of a fart,

457
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,359
you know, like shitting.

458
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to you got to get out there

459
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,640
and be on your own trying to take care of yourself,

460
00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:35,200
you know. And and you know, you and a lot

461
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,599
of people can make it work by you know, giving

462
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,559
their middle finger to the man and you know, doing

463
00:21:39,559 --> 00:21:42,279
their own thing. But for the most part, it's it's hard.

464
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 1: You can't be playing about You've got to be tasked,

465
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,200
you know, you got to be tactful about it, yeah,

466
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:46,680
which is one.

467
00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:49,559
Speaker 2: But also you get in those systems and you can

468
00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:52,240
also be the person for change too, right, Yeah, that's

469
00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:57,880
you know, you know, the the the organization of you know,

470
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:03,759
these companies is it's all you know, complicit individuals, right,

471
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,799
So you know, you go in there as an individual,

472
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,440
you can make some of those changes that you want,

473
00:22:09,519 --> 00:22:11,559
you know, and put your influence out there.

474
00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm so glad I didn't go into academia. I

475
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:16,400
would have been picked out.

476
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: So it's so far removed too from reality.

477
00:22:20,319 --> 00:22:22,759
Speaker 1: It's a complete bubble. It's a complete bubble. And especially

478
00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:24,680
in a place like the United States, it's all rich kids.

479
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,319
It's like it's predominantly wealthy people. I mean, there's a

480
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,400
lot of scholarships and shit too, but or people who

481
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,920
are going to be in debt for the next forty

482
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,480
years of their lives. Like the system to me is

483
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,519
so broken here. I'm so glad I didn't. I was

484
00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:39,359
in academia for like a year and a half and

485
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,640
I was like fuck this. And then I went to

486
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,359
community college. I was like, wait, it's the same class,

487
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,880
but it's like fifty bucks, Like what the fuck? Like

488
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,640
why am I doing this, like for the name for

489
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,200
a piece of paper that like the you know, the

490
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,839
economy doesn't value any of the things I'm into anyway.

491
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,319
So yeah, I'm so glad I didn't do it. I

492
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,119
just went and I had people tell me that, like

493
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,240
other botanists that mentored me in schooled me, who are

494
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:04,599
like seventy now being like, you did the right thing

495
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,799
by you know, we're getting a decent one of the few,

496
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,440
like decent blue collar jobs and teaching yourself this shit

497
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,039
on the side, yeah, which I did. I just was

498
00:23:14,079 --> 00:23:16,079
obsessed with that. I couldn't stop, which is like you're

499
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:16,839
obsessed with.

500
00:23:17,279 --> 00:23:19,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely obsessed with herbs. Yeah.

501
00:23:19,759 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: So when did you So when did you really like

502
00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:24,279
when it picked up, Like when did you start because

503
00:23:24,319 --> 00:23:26,880
now you're basically out there creating habitat.

504
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 2: You've been all over the south, Yeah.

505
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 1: I mean where have you Where have you hurt Like

506
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,119
what what region? Like the farthest east you've gone, the

507
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,319
farthest west you've gone.

508
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 2: So the furthest east that I've gone is probably Georgia

509
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,599
Coastal Plain and I did that last year or what,

510
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,279
well it's still this year. Yeah, so earlier this year.

511
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,440
Furthest north I've gone is Montana, and I've hurped a

512
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,240
little bit of Utah and Colorado, some in New Mexico,

513
00:23:55,319 --> 00:23:58,559
but I well, I've actually done a little bit in California, Washington,

514
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:01,000
Oregon too. I forget about that. I did did one

515
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:05,400
trip there and I think twenty eighteen, so I've actually

516
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,440
I've really herped all over again. Know, there's a few

517
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,759
regions that I've missed, like much of the Midwest. We've

518
00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:12,519
got a plan for that next year, are going to

519
00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:16,000
go out there and East coast. East Coast doesn't have

520
00:24:16,039 --> 00:24:19,160
a whole lot of draw for me, but I definitely

521
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,039
will at some Pointy is it because.

522
00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: The habitats has been so destroyed or what?

523
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: No, I think it's the most of the species that

524
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,400
are there are other places, you know, there's a few

525
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,440
endemics that I think are neat that you know, would

526
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,160
be nice to see, but it's really you know, I

527
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,759
think the species in the southern US and western US

528
00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:42,440
generally are more exciting.

529
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So when you're so explain to everybody,

530
00:24:46,839 --> 00:24:49,079
when you're herping wood, it consist of because there's flipping.

531
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,200
And then there's also just road cruising, which is how

532
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,799
I first started coming up on reptiles. I'd be driving

533
00:24:54,839 --> 00:24:57,720
out on like the fucking vis kind of peninsula in Bajad,

534
00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:00,680
eleven o'clock at night and it's still hot in the

535
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,160
pavements on I'd see a cool rattlesnake or something.

536
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,799
Speaker 2: So there's road cruising and yes, so and I think

537
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,599
I think the way it starts with a lot of

538
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,799
people who are interested in is you start by hiking

539
00:25:09,799 --> 00:25:13,880
through habitat. You know, you're you're going outside your walking trails,

540
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,759
you're spending time outdoors, and you happen to come across

541
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,720
a snake, right, And I'd say that that's the lowest

542
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,039
output type of harping. Right, You're gonna go out, You're

543
00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:30,000
gonna spend a lot of time with very few results

544
00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:33,119
because these are very secretive animals. You know, they don't

545
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,960
want to be found, and it's you know, it's a

546
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:39,039
very short window where they're actually surface active in a

547
00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:41,039
way that you can just come across some well hiking,

548
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,880
So there's that, and then there's road cruising as you said,

549
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,680
which actually it's funny, you know, you mentioned that's your

550
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,680
first way of finding you know, really like finding herbs.

551
00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:54,599
It wasn't until I got you know, hanging out with

552
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,240
other people and was like on those forums that I

553
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,599
just discovered that was even a method to find you know,

554
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,160
which that is the next easiest thing to do is

555
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,240
go drive roads and wait for stuffs across the roads,

556
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,119
which has variable levels of productivity you know, some places

557
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,599
and some conditions. It can be really incredible how many

558
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,400
numbers of snakes and lizards and different things you can

559
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:21,200
find out on the road. But you know, as you mentioned, flipping.

560
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:26,079
Flipping is my absolute favorite way of finding snakes because

561
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,359
you can go and find some of the most secretive

562
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,200
animals by simply laying out cover in a way that

563
00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:34,759
attracts them, and you'll find them using that.

564
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,039
Speaker 1: What do you think I mean? Because you the thing

565
00:26:39,079 --> 00:26:41,200
that strikes me here too, is like the further east

566
00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:44,400
you go in North America, the more the duns or

567
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,759
the human population is, and the less habitat there seemingly is. Well,

568
00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:51,720
I guess it's different for Herbers because you're looking at

569
00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:54,359
you know, a lot of these places are disturbed habitats

570
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,640
to begin with, Like there's no like to find a

571
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,079
lot of plants. You need intact habitat to find the

572
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,279
good ship, like ship that hasn't been scraped clean. But

573
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,400
like reptiles, animals really can move when the bulldozers come

574
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,079
in scrape a place to put up a cotton field

575
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,640
or a fucking farm or yeah, you know.

576
00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: To an extent they can. Unfortunately, the reality is like

577
00:27:16,039 --> 00:27:18,839
once you bring those bulldozers in, a lot of these

578
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,960
animals are fossorial and they live underground, and you know,

579
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,720
you bring those bulldozers in and you flatten a place,

580
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,000
get they're basically just going to suffocate and starve underground.

581
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,519
And that's the sad reality of you know, clear cutting

582
00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:35,319
someplace and bringing bulldozers over the top of everything. Is

583
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,359
a lot of those animals aren't going to escape. But

584
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,279
what you do have is these margins and I think,

585
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,119
you know, as Jeff goldblue, life finds a way, right,

586
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,799
you know, so you know, you know, these things want

587
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,680
to survive and they will do so in marginal habitat.

588
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,359
And then you know, okay, so let's say you've you've

589
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,039
cleared out some space to put crops, right, you have

590
00:27:58,079 --> 00:28:00,279
cotton field or whatever kind of field you have. It

591
00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:05,079
actually kind of creates this artificial you know, artificial densities

592
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,000
of certain animals. Right, so you know, the crops will

593
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,319
attract rodents because rodents want to come in and eat

594
00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:13,799
whatever seeds or you know, stuff there. And then that

595
00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:18,319
whatever praise on those rodents can have artificial densities kind

596
00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:21,839
of on those margins of habitat because there's more rodents

597
00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:25,799
there because there's this this monoculture of whatever they're at.

598
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,799
Speaker 1: They're benefiting from what's initially human impact.

599
00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, that that space is cleared out, and

600
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,440
of course that's a big dead zone, but the margins

601
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,279
of that actually can have higher densities of animals.

602
00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: Like the spot where you were first looking for amphibians

603
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,359
and reptiles when you were a kid, that canals it's

604
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,720
still there, is it's still life and still there.

605
00:28:46,039 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: I haven't been back there in many years, grown a

606
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,319
little bit out of that, but I imagine it's it's probably

607
00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:53,920
the same thing. You know, it's going to have a

608
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,079
lot of water snakes, red sliders, a lot of you know,

609
00:28:57,119 --> 00:28:58,440
some soft shell turtles.

610
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,359
Speaker 1: Because that was already the whole area was already pretty

611
00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:00,680
the best.

612
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so that's like that margin I had.

613
00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: So it's been kind of a static condition since you

614
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:08,440
were a kid, I would imagine.

615
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: So, you know, I think the only thing that could

616
00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:13,319
maybe change that is the quality of water that's getting

617
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,039
dumped through that canal. So if you have a lot

618
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:20,279
of pesticides run run off, you know, So I don't

619
00:29:20,319 --> 00:29:22,880
know what the end result of that is going to

620
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,599
be on that kind of habitat.

621
00:29:24,359 --> 00:29:26,599
Speaker 1: What drives men says that this is the first time

622
00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:29,039
I saw this, But I mean in Texas, they just

623
00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:31,559
mow the road margins, you know, which is where you

624
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,720
end up looking for plant slot because it's all private land.

625
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,039
But I was in fucking Missouri and they were spraying.

626
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,359
I was just talk about a fucking death called. I

627
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,400
was like, this is insane. I can't believe, like why

628
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,319
you're spraying orbicide because you're too lazy to bring the

629
00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:48,000
mower out, like you're just poisoning everything, like what it like,

630
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:49,640
that's it's.

631
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,039
Speaker 2: One of the most shit for brained, you know things

632
00:29:52,039 --> 00:29:55,119
you can do it just go indiscriminately kill stuff because

633
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:58,160
you're you know, and that's it's basically like this cost

634
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,920
benefit on als. Somebody's done. He says, Oh, well, it's

635
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,160
cheaper for us to go spray this once and kill

636
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,119
everything than it is to like hire somebody to mow.

637
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,440
And what's the fucking point of moment in the first place,

638
00:30:09,519 --> 00:30:11,920
Like why why do you have to mow that and

639
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,359
not lit it for a wild you know.

640
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,759
Speaker 1: I think in some areas probably just so people can

641
00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:18,759
pull off I guess, or for fire, but a lot

642
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:20,960
of it, I mean, Texas just loves the fucking moment.

643
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,400
They'll go away beyond what's necessary. And I think it's

644
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,960
again this archaic European rooted fear, you know, not modern Europe.

645
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,400
I'm talking about, you know, good europe fucking what three

646
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,559
hundred forty years ago, This idea like the woods in

647
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,720
nature are scary, We've got to control it. It's I

648
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:42,599
don't know, this archaic shit. Maybe that's entertained the wild

649
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,359
because I know, I look at the way people look

650
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,839
at like nature here and it's just brush. It's just

651
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,279
all the habitats just brush. Get rid of it. It's

652
00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:52,039
just brush. It's like now, actually, it's a fucking dynamic

653
00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:55,079
ecosystem that's unique to this region that's composed of you know,

654
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,799
probably forty plants that only grow in this part of

655
00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:00,960
Texas and are supporting every although the entire you know,

656
00:31:01,119 --> 00:31:04,559
biosphere around it. You fucking moron, Like it's I try

657
00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:06,799
not to be that meaning I wouldn't want to just educate,

658
00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:09,759
but god damn, it just continuously blows up. But it's

659
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:12,000
seeing that in Missouri, I was, it was so obvious

660
00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:15,400
they sprayed everything. I mean, you can tell herbicide versus

661
00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:19,160
drought or insect damage. These things were just it was

662
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,599
fucking crazy. And it was like near a wetland too,

663
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,160
just like poisoning the whole wetland, Like great, that's great.

664
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,000
You know either someone's and why is that not measured

665
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:31,319
in like why is the that would be a con

666
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,599
That would be like a negative. You know, when you're

667
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:37,240
looking at your stacking up everything before you make this choice,

668
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,160
it's like, oh yeah, well we're gonna kill everything it's nearby,

669
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,079
we're poisoning probably poisoning the water could lead the cancer

670
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,680
rates for the you know, people that are draining that.

671
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: It's it's it's so short sighted, right, It's it's the

672
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:51,599
you know, you have whatever municipality is in charge of

673
00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:56,279
maintenance of that roadside, you know. I think it's like

674
00:31:56,319 --> 00:31:59,720
I say, it's a cost benefit analysis where they're like, Okay,

675
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,680
we can spray all this stuff and it's cheaper to

676
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,640
do this, but it's short sighted. It's it's that immediate

677
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,359
cost that they're worried about as opposed to your long

678
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:09,720
term cost where you're.

679
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: Short term gain, long term loss, which yeah, and hurting

680
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:15,960
society on so many levels.

681
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,319
Speaker 2: And I think one of the because you're never really

682
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,599
going to change humanity in that way unless you introduce

683
00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:26,880
like an ecological value, you know, where you put a

684
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:32,039
dollar sign really and increase uh, your awareness of like

685
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:35,319
this has a actual value, you know, whether that's a

686
00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:37,759
dollar amount or you know, some way of thinking about it,

687
00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:40,559
and that Okay, well if we poison this, then we

688
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,480
are diminishing that value and incorporating that into your plan

689
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:46,559
for how you're.

690
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: But I've been to other places though too, like either

691
00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:53,200
like just like first world countries where it's still fucked

692
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,319
in many ways, but there's more of an awareness. There's

693
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,880
like a yeah, we don't want to poison the aqua

694
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:04,519
for and like this isn't harmless like spraying these chemicals

695
00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:08,160
that you know. I wonder too if like someone's like

696
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,440
cousin is like in charge of the company that's selling

697
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,359
this shit or what. But I've been to places where

698
00:33:14,359 --> 00:33:16,160
it's like, yeah, the world's not perfect, but at least

699
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,920
they know not the not the shit where they eat,

700
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:22,279
you know, like not the poison their land, their own land,

701
00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:24,880
you know, like we're all part of this living fabric.

702
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,519
I don't know, man, I don't know, but this is

703
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:29,319
I've seen some crazy shit in the Southeast quadrant of

704
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,240
the United States. I mean it's everywhere, but especially this

705
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,880
tone def in terms of the quote unquote environment, I

706
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,319
don't even like that word. But just like the living world,

707
00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:41,519
you know, but I think if you, if you teach

708
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:44,000
people to approach it, all is literally it's a living

709
00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,920
machine that's like performs myriad services that benefit us by

710
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,599
being intact and having more species diversity, and that like

711
00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:54,839
it's literally living machine. Like you want a solid quant

712
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,680
like you want a solid quantification of what exactly this

713
00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:01,599
is doing. Like that that takes a little bit more

714
00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:04,880
education to explain that to you. But just think of

715
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,599
it like a living machine. We want it like you

716
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,840
want all the fucking pieces for the car to run,

717
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:09,039
you know.

718
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, and I think that takes a direct

719
00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:15,960
focus in education. That has to start when you're younger

720
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,360
to like bring that awareness because you know our current system.

721
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:21,559
You know, you might have one or two classes in

722
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,000
high school, like on general ecology and natural you know

723
00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:30,079
the environment, right, and that's it, right, and that unless

724
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:34,679
that's really strikes your interest. You know, that's easy to

725
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,599
forget because the rest of the world's not thinking about

726
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:37,280
it most time.

727
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,039
Speaker 1: And it takes exposure to it too, which means leaving

728
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,320
portions of it in tact so people can go experience

729
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,599
it and et cetera. And I don't see society moving

730
00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:48,800
that way. It also takes funding education, which I don't

731
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,599
see society moving that way. But anyway, okay, So, but

732
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,960
keeping so, keeping back into bunch. So there's road cruising,

733
00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:58,840
which is just driving along looking for whatever is hanging,

734
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,400
and that requires warmth generally do it in summer, it does.

735
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you generally want warmer conditions, you know, and it

736
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,719
I find I used to do a lot of road cruising,

737
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,960
but at this point I find it very tedious. You know,

738
00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:12,880
you're trying to drive late at night, you know, waiting

739
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:13,760
for something.

740
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: To cross the road.

741
00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:18,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's a well, it's a slow dopamine drip, right,

742
00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:20,920
you know, you get that hit, you find something, you know,

743
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,559
maybe it's what you're looking for, maybe it's not, but

744
00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:26,599
it's a very you know, but it works. Right. So,

745
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,519
if you don't have access to habitat, or you're not

746
00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:33,960
willing to, you know, give yourself access to some of

747
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,679
that habitat, then that's kind of one of the easiest

748
00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:38,719
ways to encounter some of these animals.

749
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: So what do you guys do now?

750
00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: So what we do now, and this is really an

751
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,880
evolution that's happened over the last I want to say,

752
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,639
six or seven years, is we set out stacks of

753
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,880
tint and we have very specific way of setting this out,

754
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,800
and we look for the particular habitat and we're usually

755
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,199
you know, after milk snakes hints milk right where we're

756
00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:06,960
looking for these places that those animals live and setting

757
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,239
up a stack of tin that we know that they're

758
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,159
going to want to use.

759
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 1: So by ten, if people are listening to this, how

760
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,800
would you explain what the ten is? Correated?

761
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, corrugated roofing material. And there's different types of ten. See,

762
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,599
if you're R panel, you have corrugated materials, you have

763
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,719
like the corrugated it's got little ripples and each type

764
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,960
actually has different levels of success. And we really like

765
00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:33,280
just the corrugated, whether that's big ripples or little ripples,

766
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,360
it seems to offer the right kind of space for

767
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,159
animals to get into and lays in a way that

768
00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:41,639
is attractive for them.

769
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,639
Speaker 1: So how did you guys figure this out? I mean

770
00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:45,639
to getting to the point where you're looking at the

771
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,000
shape of the corrugation.

772
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,679
Speaker 2: You know it's from experience, right, Yeah, you go through

773
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,119
and you're like, why was this animal using this and

774
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:58,559
not this? Right? And okay, Well, I go and I

775
00:36:58,559 --> 00:37:01,559
if I have a limbit material and I find some

776
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,639
R panel and I go set that out, and I'm like,

777
00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:07,559
why the fuck are these animals not using the panel?

778
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:10,920
So it's the it's uh, basically kind of it's got

779
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,639
a flat section and then a U shaped bend, and

780
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:16,679
then another flat section probably six inches another U shaped bind,

781
00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:21,159
So it doesn't really you can stack it flat on itself,

782
00:37:21,199 --> 00:37:24,079
but it doesn't really stack in a way that offers

783
00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:27,360
a small enough like if you offset it. It doesn't

784
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,480
offer a small enough layer for most fossorial snakes, like

785
00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:34,719
it's too big on the inside. Yeah, it'll be. It'll

786
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,239
be too big of a gap. And you can get

787
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,320
stuff like rattlesnakes or pine snakes, you know, gop for snakes,

788
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,880
stuff like that will use it. But again it's not

789
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,760
uh it's it's still not as good as the regular

790
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,679
corrugated stuff in general, you know.

791
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,599
Speaker 1: But when the whole thing with using tin though, like

792
00:37:49,639 --> 00:37:51,519
you were, you were just out in spots and you

793
00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:55,239
would see somebody dumped. Yeah, that would take a lot

794
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,840
of caught on or what well.

795
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: I think it wasn't unknown. You know, you go flip

796
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:00,559
ten boards.

797
00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:01,159
Speaker 1: You know, we.

798
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: Started setting stuff out ourselves. But you know, you go

799
00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:06,679
to a lot of places where they've got like an

800
00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:09,960
old barn that the roof's blown down and these sheets

801
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,119
of ten are laying around that, you know, as it's

802
00:38:12,159 --> 00:38:15,199
all you know, growing back up and kind of rewilding,

803
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,719
and those would always be the most attractive places. You know,

804
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,880
you get this stuff. The grass is growing over the

805
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,599
edges of the ten. You know, it's not been peeled

806
00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:26,320
up by anybody, you know, in the in the last

807
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,079
ten years. And you go and you turn that over.

808
00:38:29,679 --> 00:38:31,760
That was always the best place to find a snake.

809
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,880
And you know, So the way this evolved in what

810
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,199
we currently do now with our current level of attunement

811
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,519
to the ten is you know, we were going around

812
00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:46,000
and we had this trip in twenty seventeen where we

813
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,800
were looking for milk snakes. I'd found an area that

814
00:38:50,519 --> 00:38:53,159
I could road cruise them fairly easily. So this started

815
00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:54,920
off as kind of a road cruising trip. So we

816
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,679
had a week in South Texas. We're going to go

817
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,880
and road cruise for milk snakes. So at night, that's

818
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:02,920
what we did. You know, our first night, we got

819
00:39:03,079 --> 00:39:06,079
two of them, you know, but then during the day

820
00:39:06,119 --> 00:39:10,239
we're going around flipping and it was kind of uh

821
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:14,559
considered that you couldn't flip milk snakes. It got too

822
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:18,840
hot in South Texas, so we weren't expecting to flip

823
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,880
any of them. But you know, because we're trying to

824
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,079
spend some time during the day actually doing something as

825
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,000
was just waiting for night time to come. We would

826
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:30,159
go visit these junk sides, the abandoned barns or you know,

827
00:39:30,199 --> 00:39:33,039
places where people are dumping materials, and go flip for

828
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:36,639
snakes and we'd find you know, patch nose and whip snakes,

829
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,800
you know, coach whips, all the all the different common

830
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,440
terrestrial stuff, you know, emory I, the orange gub rat

831
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,119
snakes that are down here. And then we happened upon

832
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,239
you know, this uh, this place we we we call

833
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,599
it now the super Bowl, but it was basically this

834
00:39:56,599 --> 00:40:01,159
this bowl that was dugout. So they had this cliche

835
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,400
pit and surrounding that is all deep sandy soil, but

836
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,360
here was the harder cliche and they dug this out

837
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,320
and I guess they extract that to make concrete. And

838
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,079
for whatever reason, most of the people down here seemed

839
00:40:16,119 --> 00:40:18,960
to go and throw junk in these cliche pits after

840
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,760
they're done mining the cliche out of it. So this

841
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,039
particular place had a whole bunch of tin and we

842
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,239
went in there and we're you know, I mean, you know,

843
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,400
it's so much it was very exciting to look at this,

844
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,119
and we go down in there and we start flipping

845
00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:37,360
through stuff and there I will never forget this. I remember.

846
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,280
It was a beautiful acacia tree in the middle of it.

847
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,440
There's a lot of grass growing down here at the bottom,

848
00:40:42,679 --> 00:40:46,480
and there was this white sheet of corrugated tin, you know,

849
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,840
under halfway under this acacia tree, and I flip it

850
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,400
over and there was a perfectly coiled milk snake, you know,

851
00:40:53,599 --> 00:40:57,039
just along one of those corrugations. I think we see

852
00:40:57,079 --> 00:40:58,760
it was one of the first ones. I think we'd

853
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,840
seen one of the slanting but this was. Yeah, so this,

854
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,440
well it started with that one, and we were so excited,

855
00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:08,760
you know, and then it's like this, you know, excited

856
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,880
ape like fervor going through the rest of the materials

857
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,760
there because it was just like yeah, you know, like

858
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,599
oh man, they're here, you know, we can we can

859
00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:20,960
get them under this. And just probably a few feet

860
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,599
away was this big pile of brush and you know,

861
00:41:24,679 --> 00:41:26,840
like old like mesquite trees and stuff that had been

862
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,159
piled up, and it was piled up on top of

863
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,880
a stack of tin that was extending out from it.

864
00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:38,280
So you had probably twenty or thirty sheets of ten

865
00:41:38,599 --> 00:41:42,199
stacked up sticking out of this brush pile. And my

866
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,519
buddy Arman and my friend John that were you know,

867
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,000
went over to this while I was flipping some other stuff.

868
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,559
And they're going through there and they're pulling out rat snakes.

869
00:41:50,599 --> 00:41:52,960
There's like four or five rat snakes in there, and

870
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,320
all of a sudden, I hear milk, you know, and

871
00:41:56,079 --> 00:41:58,880
John you know, goes diving into the stack of tin

872
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:04,079
and comes rolling out with this huge milk snake and that, yes,

873
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,280
Tom a leap in milk snake, and that just like it.

874
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,320
It sparked this idea of well, you know, all these layers, right,

875
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,280
you know here it is.

876
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,199
Speaker 1: It's not just having one.

877
00:42:14,039 --> 00:42:16,519
Speaker 2: It's not just having this one sheet that that has

878
00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:19,000
this small window. It like opened our mind to well,

879
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,960
maybe they really like stuff like this, you know, maybe

880
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,400
we need to if we want to find them, maybe

881
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,239
we need to not just you know, have single sheets

882
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,280
of ten out. Maybe it's like this big stack of

883
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,480
stuff because there's so many snakes in it, right.

884
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: Maybe it's more insulated for sure. Yeah.

885
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 2: Well it's like, you know, I made this reference the

886
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,440
other day. It's like a sleep number bed, right, you know,

887
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:41,840
it's like, what's your flip.

888
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:42,199
Speaker 1: Number, you know.

889
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,159
Speaker 2: You know, you have this snake and each of them

890
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,519
is in a different layer, you know, so each layer

891
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,280
has its own microclimate of temperature and humidity, and that

892
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,320
snake can move up and down in those layers and

893
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,639
find the right spot.

894
00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 1: See right. So like you're normally are you normally finding

895
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,840
them at the bottom, Like you'll have eight sheets of

896
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,079
this long ass corrugated tin and you're normally finding them at.

897
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: The So we almost never find them at the bottom.

898
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:10,199
Speaker 1: No shit, really, so it's very rare to.

899
00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: Actually find them at the bottom of the stack because

900
00:43:13,159 --> 00:43:16,079
I think, you know, sometimes maybe the ground's a little

901
00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:18,719
bit too wet, you know, So we really only find

902
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,199
them at the bottom when it's really dry, and that's

903
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,039
like the last more fastion of moisture at the very bottom,

904
00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:28,159
where that's where they want to be for whether they're

905
00:43:28,199 --> 00:43:30,679
shedding or just like you know, milksnake is a very

906
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,480
moisture sensitive animal. You know, it wants a very particular

907
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:38,280
level of moisture and it seeks that out. That's, in

908
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,840
my opinion, one of its primary drivers for where it's

909
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:41,239
going to be.

910
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: So you're creating like a multi story hotel and they

911
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,079
can decide, you know, at any time of year, what story,

912
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:49,880
what level they're gonna.

913
00:43:49,679 --> 00:43:53,079
Speaker 2: Live, And that takes that window of opportunity where if

914
00:43:53,119 --> 00:43:56,239
you've got one sheet, you have a few hours maybe

915
00:43:56,639 --> 00:43:59,800
in particular days, in which that snake is going to

916
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,159
be there, right because at some point it's gonna get

917
00:44:02,199 --> 00:44:04,559
too hot in the day and it's going to go underground,

918
00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:08,440
or if it's you know, a dry period, it may

919
00:44:08,519 --> 00:44:10,280
it's probably not gonna be using that tin at all.

920
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,159
Speaker 1: So what explain to people what a milk snake is

921
00:44:13,199 --> 00:44:15,039
and what these things look like, because they're really easy

922
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:17,840
to confuse with coral snakes. The genus is lampropelt, this

923
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:19,800
same genus as kink snakes. What do they look like?

924
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,599
And what gets you going so much about this? Fucking

925
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:24,000
I think the milks.

926
00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:26,679
Speaker 2: What gets me going about it is the challenge of

927
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:28,960
finding him in the first place, because if you didn't

928
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,920
do what we do, you don't get to find them.

929
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,360
You can maybe find them crossing roads, but you can

930
00:44:35,079 --> 00:44:38,239
almost never just go into habitat and expect to find

931
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,800
When we could go spend weeks walking through that thorn

932
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,079
scrub and the habitats that we went in, and you

933
00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:45,599
would never see one else boring.

934
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, the the misquite and the vicelia

935
00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:51,800
that we're formerly acacia that we sacha that have they've

936
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,320
been able to come back. They're like ruteral, really aggressive

937
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,000
native like weedy trees, and then a complete thick understory

938
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,360
of guinea grass. Yeah, and I think that's what really

939
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,400
cool what you're doing too. It's because that grass fucking

940
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,000
smothers all the cool plants, monocultures, the habitat, homogenizes the habitat.

941
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:10,679
But when you lay this tin out, it's a flat space.

942
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,639
It's like, I don't think snakes would want to just

943
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,679
hang out undergrass. They're going to be looking for some

944
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,639
sort of structure or something, and you're basically building habitats

945
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:21,880
for them. It's like what people do in their fucking

946
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,480
backyards with like a bee house or something. Yeah, you know,

947
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:27,960
like for the solitary the native solitary bees. It's really cool.

948
00:45:28,119 --> 00:45:30,639
But what about I mean the milk snakes especially, they're

949
00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:31,800
beautiful snakes.

950
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 2: They're really gorgeous, gorgeous. I mean, so you have a

951
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,239
variety of shades of red. You know, you can get

952
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,599
some brick red ones that maybe have a little bit

953
00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:40,880
of a less pop and then you have some just

954
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,239
this glowing orange red bands on them that it's really

955
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,599
you know, it's such a sharp thing and you you

956
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,159
un you know, unfurl this stack of tin and you're

957
00:45:50,199 --> 00:45:51,719
going through it, and all of a sudden there's just

958
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:52,719
this bright red.

959
00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:58,119
Speaker 1: And I hear the excitement. Whoa, Yeah, it's fucking great, man.

960
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:00,519
It's like that little kid comes out again. Yeah, a

961
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:04,039
little kid that's like been you know, wiped out from

962
00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:06,760
most people's inner psyche. You know, they're just like dead

963
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,199
on the inside. But it's like when when you guys

964
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,320
are out there, I'm like, man, here's a grown ass man.

965
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,280
It's like with the excitement of a little boy, it's

966
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:14,360
fucking great. Oh yeah.

967
00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 2: We really like to compare it to Christmas. You're opening

968
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,559
your Christmas presence or flip miss presence. You know, you've

969
00:46:20,599 --> 00:46:23,599
gone through here and you yeah, you finally get to

970
00:46:23,639 --> 00:46:26,719
be in touch with that excitement. That's really I think

971
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,440
most people don't get to have anymore in their everyday lives.

972
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: You know, no, it's no, they don't.

973
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:38,039
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't find anything in regular life quote

974
00:46:38,079 --> 00:46:42,800
unquote that really drives that level of excitement, and for

975
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,119
most people life.

976
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: Is a grind, at least in the US, I think

977
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,639
in the economy and like the society we've set up,

978
00:46:49,679 --> 00:46:52,480
it's a fucking joyless grind. It is, and you can

979
00:46:52,519 --> 00:46:55,599
see it. They're angry, they're pissed off. They're sitting alone

980
00:46:55,639 --> 00:47:00,800
in their car, just fucking unhappy, unfulfilled, you know, bling porn,

981
00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:03,079
fucking booze, whatever the fuck.

982
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:05,559
Speaker 2: It's doing something to try to feel something.

983
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like like the rats in the rat Park experiment,

984
00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:11,239
you know, like when they like when they gave the

985
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,599
rats and the cage's toys, they stopped hitting the morphine

986
00:47:14,639 --> 00:47:17,920
drips so much. It's like that's what people need to find,

987
00:47:18,159 --> 00:47:22,159
you know, that passion. But okay, so how do milk

988
00:47:22,199 --> 00:47:24,800
snack because it's the same genus, it's lamparropeltis. Yeah, I

989
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,559
also want to talk about how to knock confuse them

990
00:47:26,559 --> 00:47:29,679
with coral snakes, which of course, like for novice you know,

991
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,199
is important. But how do they You've got king snakes

992
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,880
which are also lamp propeltics and milk snakes. How are

993
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,519
those different evolutionary? Are they different evolutionary groups, different clades

994
00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:41,800
or what is so?

995
00:47:42,599 --> 00:47:45,639
Speaker 2: Uh? This is where I have more limited knowledge because

996
00:47:45,679 --> 00:47:48,679
I don't read a whole lot of evolutionary papers to

997
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,199
with taxonomy, because I find taxonomy sucks the joy out

998
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,280
of out of snake hunting, right yeah, and you have

999
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,800
these people online that want to argue over, oh well

1000
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,719
this is actually it's just it just bullshits the real

1001
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:04,360
joy of the experience, right with.

1002
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,199
Speaker 1: The DNA when people look at the DNA, you know,

1003
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:06,880
if there's like.

1004
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 2: So these yeah, you know, right, it's the same genus Lampropeltis.

1005
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:16,679
So they are related as far as you know how

1006
00:48:16,679 --> 00:48:17,280
they split.

1007
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: I'm not sure there are color you know, like all

1008
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,119
the red and red and black and yellow ones are

1009
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,199
more closely related and the more black and white ones

1010
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,079
are not or does it not matter, Like that's just

1011
00:48:28,159 --> 00:48:32,199
kind of I'm really not sure I have to. I'm

1012
00:48:32,199 --> 00:48:34,480
just sure my limited knowledge here as far as like

1013
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:41,400
their evolutionary history. But in terms of practicality and choice

1014
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,760
of habitats generally, you know, your milk snakes are more

1015
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,760
water associated, you know, they have this kind of association

1016
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,039
between this seam of habitat next to moisture but not

1017
00:48:57,119 --> 00:48:59,199
quite where it's drying out. So it's like you know,

1018
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,079
you want that sandy soil nearby, but you want to

1019
00:49:03,119 --> 00:49:05,239
be close enough to a permanent body of water.

1020
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: Right, So in general, you know, they're associated with river

1021
00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:14,239
systems and they're tributary to watersheds. So you can find

1022
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,679
populations by saying like, okay, well, like in East Texas

1023
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,199
you have the Trinity River and they're all down in

1024
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,000
the bottom lands of the Trinity, but you can follow

1025
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:27,280
all the watersheds of the Trinity up and follow those populations.

1026
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,719
You know, you can find them all along there, and

1027
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,440
they kind of operate in those those margins between where

1028
00:49:32,519 --> 00:49:35,360
you know you have the watershed and kind of drier,

1029
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:36,840
maybe sandier habitat.

1030
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,679
Speaker 1: Do you get kingsnakes in South tex It's not really right.

1031
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: Not a liar, Yeah, so, well you get them down

1032
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:49,519
here in the sand sheet. To an extent, they do

1033
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:54,360
like more moist areas, but they can associate in drier places.

1034
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:59,360
I think, and this is just personal opinion and supposition

1035
00:49:59,519 --> 00:50:03,360
based on on the evidence of the animals that I've seen,

1036
00:50:04,159 --> 00:50:09,320
I think that the size of the milk snakes when

1037
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,679
they're born, I think that they are able to out compete,

1038
00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:17,480
at least down here. The I think Anulata babies can

1039
00:50:17,559 --> 00:50:23,880
out compete getula, which is the king snake species, early on.

1040
00:50:24,159 --> 00:50:28,519
So I think that gula have a harder time taking

1041
00:50:28,559 --> 00:50:33,519
a stronghold here. And I think that's because they would

1042
00:50:33,559 --> 00:50:38,079
have similar prey items when they're when they're little, you know, juveniles,

1043
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,719
And I think that the milk snake is bigger and

1044
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,280
more capable of eating those prey items when it's younger.

1045
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 1: The spot where we saw those newts, that stack of ten,

1046
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,159
what there was a there was two milk snakes and

1047
00:50:52,199 --> 00:50:54,679
there was three three. Yeah, and so they don't eat

1048
00:50:54,679 --> 00:50:57,039
the nuts. The nuts are probably toxic. Most neuts have

1049
00:50:57,079 --> 00:51:00,800
evolved like toxic, you know, I know the one in California.

1050
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,199
A lot of them are really toxic, like deadly if

1051
00:51:03,199 --> 00:51:07,239
you eat one. But that was a fucking cool thing too, man,

1052
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,800
seeing those things and then like just learning they're so

1053
00:51:10,039 --> 00:51:11,480
rare and you see them.

1054
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's essentially a new population discovered, right, you know,

1055
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,000
so we had no idea. I mean you can look

1056
00:51:18,199 --> 00:51:21,400
and say I would expect them in this kind of

1057
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,079
ephemeral water body, yeah, but you don't know until you

1058
00:51:25,159 --> 00:51:28,119
actually can discover them. And you know, it's like the

1059
00:51:28,119 --> 00:51:29,960
mooks that you need some sort of cover there.

1060
00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 1: They haven't been found direct region.

1061
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: Or in that direct spot in that water body, right, Yeah,

1062
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,159
it's they're not known from there.

1063
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,199
Speaker 1: God, it's fucking cool. It's crazy, man, just like you

1064
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:45,719
never think. You never think. So okay with so you

1065
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,000
get coral snakes down here too, and what are those like?

1066
00:51:48,039 --> 00:51:50,199
Because those are of course a member of the cobra family,

1067
00:51:50,679 --> 00:51:54,320
they're deadly, very toxic. You don't want to confuse those.

1068
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,840
There's always that rhyme red what is it? Red and yellow?

1069
00:51:57,639 --> 00:52:00,360
But that doesn't and that doesn't matter any more. I've

1070
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,280
seen I've seen coral snakes that from a distance before

1071
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,440
you look at the face scales, they look like they

1072
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:06,920
look safe. They look like milk.

1073
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,559
Speaker 2: I think when once you've seen enough, you know, it's

1074
00:52:10,559 --> 00:52:13,360
it's harder to confuse them because it's the shape of

1075
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,719
the head and just general look. I don't know, you know,

1076
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,400
it's gets salt appearance. You know, it's like, okay, there's

1077
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,679
something about this. It's different. Sometimes it's hard to put

1078
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,599
your finger on it. But yeah, so that rhyme doesn't

1079
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,159
work everywhere, and there's always abronsies, right, you know, you

1080
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:34,320
have especially kind of like the genetic bottlenecks and edges

1081
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,519
of the range. Some of these animals, you get a

1082
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:39,159
lot of kind of weird abronsies, and I think that's

1083
00:52:39,199 --> 00:52:41,440
just because you have that genetic bottlenecks, you get some

1084
00:52:41,519 --> 00:52:46,079
weird phenotypes and morphs that come up. And especially Central Texas,

1085
00:52:46,679 --> 00:52:49,920
once you hit the Edwards plateau, coral snakes are really

1086
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:55,920
restricted to riparian corridors. Kind of no, no, they really

1087
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,760
need like milk snakes, they need moisture, but they can

1088
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:04,599
do dryer habitats than milksnakes do. But yeah, so basically,

1089
00:53:04,679 --> 00:53:06,440
you know, you get a lot of weird looking ones,

1090
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,119
and it's generally discouraged to use the rhyme as a

1091
00:53:10,199 --> 00:53:12,000
method to.

1092
00:53:13,039 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: I imagine if you're like an actual herper too, it's like, yeah,

1093
00:53:16,039 --> 00:53:16,920
you you you know.

1094
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 2: When you see it, you know, you know, it's kind

1095
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,679
of it's it's very obvious to a herper the difference

1096
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,679
between them and a milk snake will almost never have

1097
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,320
an aproncy that makes it look like a coral snake.

1098
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,840
A coral snake can have an abroncy that maybe look,

1099
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,760
I don't know, it'll never to me look like a milksnake.

1100
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,800
But really, your lay person, I think it can be tough,

1101
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,280
right because they look at it and then just they

1102
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,119
don't have enough experience of seeing the animals to actually know.

1103
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: Have you seen a lot of I mean, do you

1104
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,599
see it? And I mean you see all kinds of

1105
00:53:50,599 --> 00:53:53,199
stupid shit on the internet and social media, but do

1106
00:53:53,199 --> 00:53:55,400
you see it where people can like will kill indigos

1107
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,159
thinking they're fucking cotton miles or like just dumbasses.

1108
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 2: No in it gooes. They're actually usually pretty easily identified,

1109
00:54:02,119 --> 00:54:04,800
and you know, because it's like it's like a cultural

1110
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,920
thing almost right, Yeah, because they like them and they

1111
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,679
you know, oh, the blue indigo, they they love it

1112
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,199
because they have this idea in their head that it's

1113
00:54:14,199 --> 00:54:20,400
protecting them from rattlesnakes everyone. I mean, they will definitely

1114
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,599
opportunistically eat a rattlesnake, but they also would probably get

1115
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:27,440
a hot dog if you.

1116
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:31,079
Speaker 1: Try. Yeah, how often are these things? Like an indigo?

1117
00:54:31,079 --> 00:54:33,400
Ho often? Does it need to eat every six months

1118
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:34,440
or something every two months?

1119
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 2: They can go a long time, but they're very active foragers.

1120
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:40,480
So usually you know, as long as it's warm enough

1121
00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:43,440
and in the evening, you can usually come across them,

1122
00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:46,559
you know, while hiking. Yeah, through their habitat, as long

1123
00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:49,679
as it's not too dry. There's something. I think they

1124
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,679
eat a lot, and they're they're a high. They have

1125
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:57,440
a lot of activity, you know, So I don't know

1126
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,719
how often they eat naturally in the world wild, you know,

1127
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:03,519
I think they can go a long time without food.

1128
00:55:03,519 --> 00:55:06,679
But I think because of their metabolism that keeps them

1129
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,360
very active. I think that they probably do eat a

1130
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,599
lot they get to the size they do. As far

1131
00:55:11,599 --> 00:55:15,000
as why they're so chill, you know, it's a it's

1132
00:55:15,119 --> 00:55:17,119
very I think it's a very confident snake. I think

1133
00:55:17,199 --> 00:55:21,199
it doesn't have a lot of things in uh once

1134
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,000
it gets to a big enough size, I don't think

1135
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,000
there's a lot of things in the habitat that in

1136
00:55:25,039 --> 00:55:27,000
the environment that can actually kill it. Which is the

1137
00:55:27,039 --> 00:55:29,639
biggest one you've seen, So the biggest one I've seen

1138
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,239
is probably about six and a half feet six and

1139
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,960
a half to seven feet, and they get thick. You know.

1140
00:55:35,119 --> 00:55:37,880
One of the things when you get a snake that

1141
00:55:38,039 --> 00:55:40,320
size is it's not just the link, it's the girth.

1142
00:55:41,079 --> 00:55:43,480
When they're that big, they're just it's really it's a

1143
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,480
different animal The last one that we got was so

1144
00:55:46,639 --> 00:55:50,039
big I could almost not fit my hand around it.

1145
00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:52,400
And I've got pretty big home got what I you know,

1146
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:58,320
yeah almost maybe not quite greatful, but baseball baseball size. Yeah, definitely.

1147
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,800
You know you got a meati scen rats frogs, Yeah,

1148
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:03,800
I think they spin a lot. I think they are

1149
00:56:04,079 --> 00:56:06,159
death to a lot of pack rats. You know, I've

1150
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:09,079
seen them coming in and out of packrat bittens.

1151
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: Uh.

1152
00:56:09,679 --> 00:56:12,280
Speaker 2: I think that's a terror. If you're a pat.

1153
00:56:13,599 --> 00:56:16,280
Speaker 1: That's like, that's what barnes need instead of barn cats.

1154
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,360
Those fucking barn cat programs need. The cat ladies are

1155
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,760
just like, oh, we've gotta save all these feral cats

1156
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,639
that are you know, have roundworm and fucking toxo and

1157
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:28,480
hate people, and we've got to save them, put them

1158
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,559
off at the barn and then they kill everything, you know,

1159
00:56:32,079 --> 00:56:35,719
like everything you might as well organism fucking you know,

1160
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,239
spray poison. But they I've never seen it. Have you

1161
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,079
been bitten by an indego? They don't bite? Yeah?

1162
00:56:42,159 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 2: Yesterday, really it was a yeah, because I was surprised.

1163
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:45,679
Speaker 1: They will buy it.

1164
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 2: They will, they will bite, but it's rare.

1165
00:56:48,519 --> 00:56:51,039
Speaker 1: It's fun, it's funny. Seeing that milk snake like just

1166
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,199
chomp on that six year old on a on wally. Yeah,

1167
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,800
the poor kid. Well, I think he was freaked out

1168
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,559
at first because you're like, why this animal wants to

1169
00:56:59,599 --> 00:57:03,719
hurt me? But then like you know, playing with millipiece.

1170
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,079
That was a grumpy, fucking milk snake. It was, and

1171
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:08,000
it had a big scar on it from god knows

1172
00:57:08,039 --> 00:57:09,159
what fighting another.

1173
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 2: Snake or something, and I don't know, you know, sometimes

1174
00:57:11,639 --> 00:57:14,760
they don't get to be big adult animals without you know,

1175
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,239
being a little bit of an asshole.

1176
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: Some Yeah, I think, yeah, he was bummed. He did

1177
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,280
not want to be come out and I don't know.

1178
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:21,880
But but so you.

1179
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 2: Got bit by an inego yesterday, Yeah I did. Yeah,

1180
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,920
it was. It was actually a pretty big animal. And

1181
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:27,880
I was really surprised because you just pick him up

1182
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,480
and you don't expect to get bit And then this

1183
00:57:30,519 --> 00:57:32,679
one came and he got me on the arm. Here

1184
00:57:32,719 --> 00:57:35,719
you can see some of the teeth marks all through there,

1185
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:37,440
and uh, yeah, I was.

1186
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:40,159
Speaker 1: Worse scrapes from just walking through Thornton.

1187
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's never really that bad, you know, It's just

1188
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,559
it hurts for a brief moment in the moment and

1189
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:46,679
then you forget about it.

1190
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, man, my son got bit by a whip snake,

1191
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:56,079
a striped whip snake in Utah, and his mom fucking

1192
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,559
lost it. And like by the time he was back

1193
00:57:58,599 --> 00:58:02,199
in Chicago, she was because we were we were out

1194
00:58:02,199 --> 00:58:05,719
looking at Bristol Coms or whatever, and by the time

1195
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:07,920
he was back in Chicago was healed. She only found

1196
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:09,960
it because she was just interrogating the shit out of him,

1197
00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:12,719
and it ended up being like a really big deal.

1198
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,559
She like tried to get all this she was she

1199
00:58:15,599 --> 00:58:18,000
went nuts. Man, it was I mean, this lady, like

1200
00:58:18,719 --> 00:58:21,559
doesn't she lives on like a North Short condo, you know,

1201
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:25,239
it's whatever. Yeah, but uh but it's and I think

1202
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,119
a lot of people in Chicago too, because it's so

1203
00:58:27,239 --> 00:58:30,280
disconnected there. There's you can't first off, it's so cold

1204
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,199
most of year, you don't actually get snakes. Second, it's

1205
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,039
there's no habitat. It's so disconnected that I think people

1206
00:58:37,079 --> 00:58:39,840
don't know, you know, I mean, especially in that habitat,

1207
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,679
the only real dangerous snakes are have rattles on them.

1208
00:58:42,679 --> 00:58:44,119
There's I don't even think there's corals.

1209
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 2: No, there's no corals. Corals basically don't go north of Oklahoma.

1210
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were in the house range of Utah, like

1211
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,480
very dry habitat, and it was a fucking hilarious thing

1212
00:58:53,519 --> 00:58:56,280
and it didn't cause him to bleed or anything like.

1213
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,039
It was a little it looked like half of what

1214
00:58:58,079 --> 00:59:00,519
you just showed me, and it bit me, and yeah,

1215
00:59:00,519 --> 00:59:01,079
I don't know, it was.

1216
00:59:01,119 --> 00:59:03,519
Speaker 2: Nuts, But well, I think a lot of people will,

1217
00:59:03,559 --> 00:59:06,280
even for whatever reason, seem to think that you can

1218
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,800
get some sort of infectious disease from getting bit even

1219
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,760
though it's a non venomous snake. I'll tell you what.

1220
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,639
I've been bit by tons of snakes over the last

1221
00:59:15,639 --> 00:59:19,559
twelve years, and I've never once like put anything on it.

1222
00:59:19,719 --> 00:59:21,559
You know, I just keep upping your rubb a little

1223
00:59:21,599 --> 00:59:24,480
dirt into it, and you just keep going. And that

1224
00:59:24,719 --> 00:59:28,840
I've never had anything significant happened other than maybe like

1225
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,079
some teeth get dislodged there and you gotta oh really, yeah, yeah,

1226
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,239
got away for me to come out. I got bit

1227
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,440
by a diamondback water snake at one point, and they've

1228
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,079
got you know, pretty strong recurved teeth, and when it

1229
00:59:41,159 --> 00:59:46,039
pulled back, you know, it left one of the teeth. Yeah,

1230
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:49,199
it's a. Well, it's a nature scene actually, so enough.

1231
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, I shouldn't even dabble. I don't have to talk

1232
00:59:52,639 --> 00:59:55,880
to a lot so yeah, but christ, that's hilarious. Man.

1233
00:59:56,039 --> 00:59:58,840
It must have been big, though I can't.

1234
00:59:58,639 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 2: I can't remember at this point how biget what? You know,

1235
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,400
the average you know, probably about four feet, you know,

1236
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,400
but it's probably not even that big of a snake.

1237
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,039
But one of the pieces of the tooth got left

1238
01:00:08,039 --> 01:00:10,880
in my finger, and you know, I was poking at

1239
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,000
it for a couple of weeks before it finally came out.

1240
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: Wow, that's hilarious. The scariest thing about any of them

1241
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,800
to me is the musk is just the fucking sense

1242
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,840
like you're going to guard especially cheese.

1243
01:00:22,639 --> 01:00:27,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, horrible, brutal, Yeah, damn Nopus especially is a pretty

1244
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,519
rough genus because and one of the reasons I don't

1245
01:00:30,519 --> 01:00:32,360
really pick up a lot of water snakes either is

1246
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,400
because it has one of the most foul musks. And

1247
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,440
you know, you can appreciate the snake from a distance,

1248
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,480
but once you put your hands on it, you and

1249
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:41,960
anybody around you is going to smell that.

1250
01:00:42,039 --> 01:00:43,239
Speaker 1: You just can't get it off.

1251
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, until you go take a shower. You know, go

1252
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:46,480
really really wash yourself.

1253
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: You get you get cotton miles in eastern Texas, right, Yeah, Yeah,

1254
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,800
they're beautiful. I've never some of them. I've just seen it.

1255
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,599
Speaker 2: They kind of brown out when they're adults, you know,

1256
01:00:55,639 --> 01:00:57,960
but the young ones can be very sharp, look and

1257
01:00:58,000 --> 01:00:59,880
I wish they retained that coloration.

1258
01:01:00,039 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: You've never been bit by anything venomous?

1259
01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:03,519
Speaker 2: I have one? Really, I did get bit by a

1260
01:01:03,559 --> 01:01:04,199
copper head.

1261
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:05,639
Speaker 1: No shit, what happened?

1262
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,599
Speaker 2: Okay, So, so we were doing this this trip, I

1263
01:01:09,639 --> 01:01:14,920
think it was twenty eighteen or nineteen, and we'd done

1264
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,239
some stuff in Louisiana and we were basically traveling for

1265
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,920
the night, and we had finished our banks. So I

1266
01:01:21,079 --> 01:01:23,199
was in my tennis shoes. I'd taken my boots off

1267
01:01:23,239 --> 01:01:24,760
because you know, after you've been out for a day

1268
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:26,320
and them it's they're not comfortable anymore.

1269
01:01:26,559 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: Hold on, I got a pee, I gotta I want

1270
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,079
to this is going to be good. I wanted to actually, Okay,

1271
01:01:31,119 --> 01:01:33,239
here we go. All right, we're about okay, So where.

1272
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 2: Were we We're talking about the bite? Yeah, So I'd

1273
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,599
done this trip to Louisiana and we were basically heading

1274
01:01:39,679 --> 01:01:43,840
up to Arkansas and we were basically again search of milksnakes,

1275
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,719
and we wanted to go see some up the Mississippi

1276
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:52,599
River Valley or Delta further north. And you know, so

1277
01:01:52,679 --> 01:01:54,679
we we had finished the day, I'd taken off my

1278
01:01:54,719 --> 01:01:57,280
boots and I put on tennis shoes, and you know,

1279
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,000
here it is near twilight, you know, it's it's getting

1280
01:02:00,079 --> 01:02:03,880
dark and armand and I passed by this tiny patch

1281
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,840
of woods. You know, it's really it really wasn't much

1282
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:09,599
of anything. But we saw the glimmer of a stack

1283
01:02:09,639 --> 01:02:12,639
of tin in there, and we of course like, hey man,

1284
01:02:12,719 --> 01:02:15,639
turn around, let's go look at that and put it there. No,

1285
01:02:15,719 --> 01:02:17,880
this is just yeah, some stuff stacked up.

1286
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:19,559
Speaker 1: You know you really you gotta put You got to

1287
01:02:19,599 --> 01:02:22,920
like make an offering to the industrial roofing manufacturers of

1288
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,480
like the mid twentieth century for making this such a phenomenon.

1289
01:02:26,679 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 2: Oh, I know, it's really yeah, they've really made me

1290
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,320
and my hobby what it is. If it wasn't for them,

1291
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,880
that wouldn't be half as half as excited about this stuff.

1292
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,719
But yeah, so I see the glimmer of tin, They're like,

1293
01:02:41,719 --> 01:02:43,199
oh man, we got to turn around, let's go go

1294
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,440
check that out. So we park, we run over there

1295
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:48,159
and we flipped through it, and of course there's a

1296
01:02:48,199 --> 01:02:51,800
milk snake, you know, in the couple of layers down

1297
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,840
and then we see a copper head. So there's a

1298
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:56,760
copper head down there, and we're kind of leaning the

1299
01:02:57,159 --> 01:03:00,239
tin up against some trees and brush that was behind

1300
01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:03,880
and right as we get near the bottom, we hear

1301
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,639
this dude yelling at us. And of course the guy

1302
01:03:06,639 --> 01:03:09,440
who owns the property lives across the street and saw

1303
01:03:09,519 --> 01:03:11,199
us there, and it's like, what the fuck are y'all doing,

1304
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,760
you know, and you know, we so of course we

1305
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,320
go talk to him. And this almost always happens that

1306
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,320
you go talk to him and as soon as you

1307
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,360
tell them that you're snake hunting, they it's like it's

1308
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,360
like you've hit this reset switch on their brain and they're.

1309
01:03:25,239 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: Like, suddenly they're a nine year old boy.

1310
01:03:27,159 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they're like, and this guy's it's snake

1311
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,880
hut night. Never heard nobody looking for those snakes. And yeah,

1312
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:35,480
so we we kind of, you know, tell him a

1313
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,360
little bit about it, and he's looking over there at

1314
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,280
his pile of tin and he says, well, you're not

1315
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,440
gonna leave it, like that are you. And I'm like no, no, no, no,

1316
01:03:42,239 --> 01:03:44,760
you know, so we go and because it was he

1317
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:46,800
was still still leaned up right because he kind of

1318
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,760
got us in the middle of it. So we go

1319
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:50,800
walking back over there and I've got the milk snake

1320
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,000
in my hand, but the copper head, you know, of course,

1321
01:03:53,239 --> 01:03:56,360
we've lost track of. So We're in the middle of

1322
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,079
talking to this dude and explaining snake hunting to him

1323
01:03:59,599 --> 01:04:01,719
and trying to go set his tin back down, and

1324
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,079
I felt what felt like a wasp sting my foot,

1325
01:04:06,119 --> 01:04:09,400
like ah, fuck, you know, through your shoe. So I

1326
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:11,280
you know, the funny thing is these are old tennis

1327
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,880
shoes and I had worn away the where the pinky

1328
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:18,280
toe is. So there's a hole there right where my

1329
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:22,119
pinky toe is. And he bit right there on that

1330
01:04:22,199 --> 01:04:26,159
hole and got me on my pinky toe and uh.

1331
01:04:26,239 --> 01:04:28,039
And I look up at Armin and because I still

1332
01:04:28,079 --> 01:04:30,000
can't see the copper head, and I'm like arm and

1333
01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:32,480
I think because they blend in, yeah, and it was well,

1334
01:04:32,519 --> 01:04:35,519
it was almost dark, and you know, he's like on

1335
01:04:35,559 --> 01:04:38,679
top of leaves, and uh, you know, I just couldn't

1336
01:04:38,679 --> 01:04:40,760
see it very well. So I look up at arm

1337
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,800
and I'm like, I think that copperhead just bit me.

1338
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:44,480
And we all kind of had this, you know, ten

1339
01:04:44,519 --> 01:04:47,280
seconds of just like you know, staring at each other

1340
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,440
like oh shit, what do we do? And meanwhile, you know,

1341
01:04:50,519 --> 01:04:53,880
the guy that got caught us on his property is

1342
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,239
kind of freaking out a little bit, and you know,

1343
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,159
I looked down and eventually I laid my eyes on it,

1344
01:04:58,159 --> 01:05:00,159
and I'm like, yeah, sure enough the thing did like me.

1345
01:05:00,679 --> 01:05:04,360
So so we're kind of like, okay, well, let's put the

1346
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:06,639
tin back down. And there was actually another stack of ten.

1347
01:05:06,639 --> 01:05:07,639
Speaker 1: What's the paint add Now?

1348
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 2: It was pretty it was pretty significant. You know, it

1349
01:05:12,039 --> 01:05:15,119
was like was the initial impression was wasp, but then

1350
01:05:15,159 --> 01:05:17,639
it's kind of throbbing and getting a little bit worse,

1351
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:21,159
and you know, so but there was still another stack

1352
01:05:21,199 --> 01:05:22,920
of tin there that we hadn't got to, so it

1353
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:26,440
was like check this out real quick. Yeah, so so

1354
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:28,960
so we we went and thumbs through that real quick.

1355
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,960
We didn't get any more snakes, and uh, you know, meanwhile,

1356
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,360
this dude's kind of caught us. There's freaking out a

1357
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,239
little bit, and we're like, no, no, no, yeah he knew,

1358
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:41,079
well you're telling yeah, it's Okay, you know, we'll figure

1359
01:05:41,079 --> 01:05:42,400
it out, you know what I mean, while he thinks I'm

1360
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,119
probably gonna go off and die somewhere. But we get

1361
01:05:45,119 --> 01:05:47,519
back in the truck and we start driving away, and

1362
01:05:47,639 --> 01:05:50,800
Urmand's worried a little bit too, you know, and uh,

1363
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,159
I'm like, you know, it doesn't feel that bad. You know,

1364
01:05:54,199 --> 01:05:56,800
it hurt, but it didn't really seem that bad. And

1365
01:05:57,039 --> 01:05:59,000
we get up probably a mile down the road, there's

1366
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,079
an intersection. It literally said like had the little hospital

1367
01:06:02,119 --> 01:06:04,960
signed to the left, and our GPS was, you know,

1368
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,480
taking us to the right to where we were going

1369
01:06:06,519 --> 01:06:09,039
to go stay for the night. And I'm like, oh, man,

1370
01:06:09,119 --> 01:06:11,599
just let's just keep going, you know, don't worry about it,

1371
01:06:11,639 --> 01:06:14,440
don't worry about the hospital. So I call. I called

1372
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,440
some friends and that I knew had gotten bit by

1373
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,360
comprehends before, and basically it's like, how what was your experience?

1374
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:22,880
What was this like, you know, and how are you

1375
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:28,159
feeling around this time? And after talking to them about it,

1376
01:06:28,199 --> 01:06:30,440
I was like, Okay, it sounds like my experience is

1377
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:33,559
so far a lot less than what you guys had

1378
01:06:33,559 --> 01:06:35,239
to deal with, And uh.

1379
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: I just got your pin.

1380
01:06:37,239 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it barely got me. And I want

1381
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,199
to say that, you know it, it stung and it hurt,

1382
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:48,159
but it wasn't as painful as it sounded like. You know,

1383
01:06:48,239 --> 01:06:50,840
my friend's bites were which they didn't even need anti

1384
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,199
venom for. So I was kind of feeling confident at

1385
01:06:53,199 --> 01:06:55,199
that point, all right, as long as it's doesn't get worse,

1386
01:06:55,559 --> 01:06:59,480
I think I'll be okay. And uh, within thirty minutes,

1387
01:06:59,519 --> 01:07:02,039
I'd say that was the peak of the pain for it.

1388
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:04,880
And then you know, by I basically we went to

1389
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,559
the hotel that night. I didn't go to the hospital. Yeah, wow,

1390
01:07:09,039 --> 01:07:10,880
went to the hotel and you know, Armand's kind of

1391
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,039
regularly asked me, okay, how's it feel now? How are

1392
01:07:13,039 --> 01:07:16,079
you doing? And I didn't have any systemic effects. My

1393
01:07:16,119 --> 01:07:19,800
foot got a little puffy, and then basically the next day,

1394
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:21,800
you know, we went herping and I was a little

1395
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:25,159
tender on that foot for probably two weeks after that.

1396
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:28,280
You know, I could tell something had happened there. Yeah,

1397
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:30,440
But other than that, that was basically the extent of it.

1398
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,239
So I feel like I got really lucky in terms

1399
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:38,679
of how bad the five comes. In general, they're not I'm.

1400
01:07:38,559 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 1: Sure if one gets you like, it really gets you,

1401
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:42,119
you know.

1402
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,119
Speaker 2: You know, after talking to armand a little bit more recently,

1403
01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:46,960
because there was a kid who got bit by an

1404
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:50,719
Eastern diamondback and we were talking a little bit about

1405
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:52,880
you know, bites, and he said that actually, some of

1406
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,119
the people that have gotten bit by copperheads have a

1407
01:07:55,159 --> 01:07:57,239
pretty bad time of it. But I think it just

1408
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:01,840
kind of depends on how much venom you get, what population, so.

1409
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 1: They can be but they're not They also be bad.

1410
01:08:05,519 --> 01:08:07,920
Speaker 2: It can be bad. Yeah, So you know, I think

1411
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,280
I would never recommend somebody just don't get treatment. You know.

1412
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:16,560
I did that based on my own judgment and based

1413
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:18,840
on talking to people, and it sounded like I really

1414
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,920
didn't have anything to worry about at the time because

1415
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,399
I knew people that have got bit and whatever I

1416
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:27,239
was experiencing was far less pain than they had and

1417
01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:29,039
they never even needed treatment.

1418
01:08:29,079 --> 01:08:32,079
Speaker 1: Really, So who got bit by an easter? Not who?

1419
01:08:32,119 --> 01:08:34,960
But what happened when this kid got bit by an easter? Donald?

1420
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 2: Well, you know, of course everybody's talking about it right now,

1421
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,479
but the story that he's given, and some people will

1422
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:43,399
dispute it, but I think he's been honest about it.

1423
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:47,000
It's Basically he had seen a tree stump on the

1424
01:08:47,039 --> 01:08:48,920
side of the road and went to go peel it

1425
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:53,079
looking for scarlet kingsnakes. And I guess as he was

1426
01:08:53,119 --> 01:08:54,920
going around that tree stump, and you know, you get

1427
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:58,439
tunnel vision as a herber. You know, you're looking specifically

1428
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,159
at you know, maybe a stack of tin in a

1429
01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:02,880
tree stump or some particular thing that you're looking at,

1430
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:05,640
and you may not pay attention to everything around you.

1431
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:07,439
And I think what he did is just had tunnel

1432
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,840
vision for that tree stump and stepped right next to,

1433
01:09:11,039 --> 01:09:13,680
or maybe even right on top of the Eastern diamondback

1434
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,640
and it got him on the shin. And he's still

1435
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:23,279
in the hospital right now. I think we're thirteen days

1436
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:26,359
past Wow where he was in Florida.

1437
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:30,399
Speaker 1: God damn man. Yeah, that's a that is an undesirable

1438
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:33,239
snake to get bitten by. Yeah, and they're huge and

1439
01:09:33,279 --> 01:09:34,399
they just dump and.

1440
01:09:34,359 --> 01:09:38,640
Speaker 2: It's a it's a nasty venom. Yeah.

1441
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:42,079
Speaker 1: What it's like hemo toxin and neurotoxin or what like

1442
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,159
latest or what super familiar on what is that Crodalus

1443
01:09:45,199 --> 01:09:49,920
horridust horridis has some neurotoxin in it? What's eastern diamond

1444
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:56,279
back adam Antius eighty eight vials of anti venom. Yeah,

1445
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:57,920
is he gonna be okay? You know, he's not gonna

1446
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:00,319
think I think I think he'll probably be fine. Yeah,

1447
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,000
you know, he'll have a significant medical bill to deal with.

1448
01:10:04,039 --> 01:10:07,319
And don't pay your medical bills. And the moral of

1449
01:10:07,319 --> 01:10:09,520
the story here on crime pay is always don't pay

1450
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:13,680
your medical bills. It might ruin your credit. That's okay, right,

1451
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:15,880
You're better off if they come after you and a loss.

1452
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,479
You're better off paying a lawyer to knock it down

1453
01:10:19,079 --> 01:10:23,479
than paying these shitty medical bills. You're incentivizing a broken system.

1454
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,079
So you're worried about your credit, just take out a

1455
01:10:26,119 --> 01:10:28,560
fucking credit card and you know, put it on auto pay.

1456
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,560
Don't buy anything you don't have money to immediately pay off.

1457
01:10:32,199 --> 01:10:36,239
Damn though. Yeah, Jesus Christ, that's gotta suck. I wonder man,

1458
01:10:36,279 --> 01:10:38,199
that's going to be a story to tell, like the

1459
01:10:38,239 --> 01:10:40,119
pain of you know, you.

1460
01:10:40,079 --> 01:10:43,359
Speaker 2: Have the out of the field for a while, I'm sure.

1461
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:49,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, the hospital food. Yeah, Jesus glad he's okay, though, Christ,

1462
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,960
that's so okay. Another thing I want to ask you too,

1463
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,439
because being that this is Texas, and there's basically no

1464
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,239
public land. Like whenever I say this, the Texans always wow,

1465
01:10:57,279 --> 01:10:59,600
we got state parks and blah blah. I'm like, that's nothing.

1466
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:03,600
That's it's fucking crumbs, there's nothing. What do you do,

1467
01:11:04,199 --> 01:11:05,640
I mean, how do you navigate that?

1468
01:11:06,399 --> 01:11:10,520
Speaker 2: So we we we look for what I like to

1469
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,840
think of as the liminal spaces, these kind of forgotten

1470
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:17,520
pieces of land that yeah, it's it's private property, but

1471
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:19,199
it's stuff that's unfenced.

1472
01:11:19,359 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: It's tennally private property. It's not like you're hopping a

1473
01:11:22,119 --> 01:11:24,720
massive fence and going past nine to no trespassing signs

1474
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:26,560
and it's or it's next to someone's house or some shit.

1475
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're you're looking at this piece of land that

1476
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:32,720
clearly has been forgotten. You know, somebody owns it, but

1477
01:11:33,039 --> 01:11:37,039
nobody cares about it. Nobody's doing anything out there, and

1478
01:11:38,399 --> 01:11:41,000
you know it's it's ripe with opportunity, you know. So

1479
01:11:41,039 --> 01:11:45,800
we like to identify those places that like, yeah, and

1480
01:11:46,199 --> 01:11:48,880
sometimes we do get you know, caught out there because

1481
01:11:49,159 --> 01:11:53,079
like I said, it is trespassing, but it's also it's

1482
01:11:53,119 --> 01:11:55,960
not like you're in somebody's backyard, right, you know. You

1483
01:11:57,039 --> 01:12:00,439
But for the most part. Even even after getting it's

1484
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,359
usually okay because once you tell people that you're snake hunting,

1485
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:05,920
then it sparks this kind of interest and they never

1486
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,960
would have expected it. So we have permission at a

1487
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:10,880
lot of places now.

1488
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:13,159
Speaker 1: End up getting permission. Yeah, the landowner finds you when

1489
01:12:13,199 --> 01:12:14,319
you talk to them and you're.

1490
01:12:14,159 --> 01:12:16,640
Speaker 2: Cool and yeah yeah, and they're usually okay, well, I

1491
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:18,439
understand what you're doing out here, and you know, we

1492
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:20,439
kind of work our way into well, hey can we

1493
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:24,000
set out stacks attend here? You know, like hey, you know,

1494
01:12:24,279 --> 01:12:26,359
oh your barn, you know, all this stuff is falling

1495
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:28,199
off of it. You know, we can kind of move

1496
01:12:28,199 --> 01:12:30,239
it into the into the woods or over here, kind

1497
01:12:30,239 --> 01:12:32,279
of out of your way in a way that we

1498
01:12:32,319 --> 01:12:34,479
can enjoy the snakes and then you don't have to

1499
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:37,840
have maybe an I soore. So we work in those

1500
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:42,239
spaces because the reality is like, okay, and I respect

1501
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:47,439
state parks and refuges and wild land right, so these

1502
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:50,239
are places where if you go touch herps, you're you're

1503
01:12:50,279 --> 01:12:52,239
really kind of doing stuff against the law. You know,

1504
01:12:53,319 --> 01:12:56,279
I want you to go into a state park and

1505
01:12:56,319 --> 01:12:57,680
pick up a snake.

1506
01:12:57,840 --> 01:12:59,439
Speaker 1: It seemed like you wouldn't want it to serve a

1507
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:02,079
state parks because those are what's actually been left instead

1508
01:13:02,079 --> 01:13:03,159
aside and conserved.

1509
01:13:03,239 --> 01:13:06,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, it's intact habitat, and you

1510
01:13:06,079 --> 01:13:09,159
want to leave it as undisturbed as you can, you know,

1511
01:13:09,159 --> 01:13:10,199
while still enjoying it.

1512
01:13:10,279 --> 01:13:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1513
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:14,199
Speaker 2: So I don't want to go set up ten stacks

1514
01:13:14,199 --> 01:13:16,439
in state parks or refuges. I want to I want

1515
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:20,159
to do it in these liminal spaces where it's forgotten,

1516
01:13:20,359 --> 01:13:23,359
forgotten land, and I can go see some forgotten animals.

1517
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 1: And so most of the time, when someone approaches you,

1518
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:27,159
what do you do? I mean, you just try to

1519
01:13:27,199 --> 01:13:30,600
be as kind and chill as possible, apologize, and then

1520
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:31,840
explain what you're doing or what.

1521
01:13:32,079 --> 01:13:35,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I tell them usually

1522
01:13:35,119 --> 01:13:37,159
is oh, we're just looking for snakes, right. I got

1523
01:13:37,159 --> 01:13:39,199
to throw it out there as soon as possible, because

1524
01:13:39,239 --> 01:13:40,840
I want to. I want to hit the reset button,

1525
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:44,439
because you know, they come at you with their like,

1526
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:46,760
why are these people on my land? You know, are

1527
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:51,159
they stealing stuff? Are they? They don't want poachers, right,

1528
01:13:51,199 --> 01:13:53,479
you know, I don't want people poaching deer, right, So

1529
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:55,720
you throw out the snakes thing as soon as possible,

1530
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:59,199
and then that really opens up this opportunity to actually

1531
01:13:59,239 --> 01:14:03,000
explain more of what you're doing, and usually people are

1532
01:14:03,079 --> 01:14:05,720
very receptive to it. You know, you could apologize to

1533
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:08,960
them and armand and I like to joke about making

1534
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:12,039
them apologize because that's actually happened a.

1535
01:14:12,079 --> 01:14:14,279
Speaker 1: Few times before where it came off so hot.

1536
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:16,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that well that that happens, right, you know,

1537
01:14:16,399 --> 01:14:18,960
you they come off real hot and then you you

1538
01:14:19,119 --> 01:14:21,880
walk them down from that and you kind of make

1539
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:24,600
friends with them because I think you can connect with

1540
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:26,239
them in a way of like, Okay, well this is

1541
01:14:26,279 --> 01:14:29,520
actually kind of interesting. These guys are really just nerds.

1542
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:32,920
They just want to go see some cool animals and

1543
01:14:33,079 --> 01:14:35,439
they happen to be doing it, you know, because I've

1544
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:38,399
got you know, this old barn or whatever on my

1545
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:42,279
property that brought them there, and you know that has

1546
01:14:42,319 --> 01:14:46,239
given us a lot of permission at places, and you know,

1547
01:14:46,319 --> 01:14:48,199
really opened up that access to us.

1548
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's the thing that always strikes me

1549
01:14:51,319 --> 01:14:53,680
in Texas when because I've had a couple of run

1550
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,159
ins with landowners even just being close to their property,

1551
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:58,159
and a guy who was telling me, like anytime I

1552
01:14:58,199 --> 01:15:00,199
see a car even parked on the side of the road.

1553
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:02,399
I don't assume they're changing a tire. I just call

1554
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:06,439
the call the you know with the DHS, what is it? No,

1555
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:11,920
not DHS, what's the fucking dps? Dps? Yeah, safe. Yeah,

1556
01:15:12,399 --> 01:15:14,680
it's like Jesus Christ Man, Like, have you ever thought

1557
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:17,760
like people just like to look at stuff, Like you've

1558
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:21,439
severed the connection that people have to the outdoors into land.

1559
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:26,159
It's crazy, Like, yeah, there's probably there's nefarious people out there,

1560
01:15:26,199 --> 01:15:28,720
of course, but there's also a lot of people that

1561
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:29,560
just want to.

1562
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:32,680
Speaker 2: Look at the number of nefarious people out there is

1563
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,960
very low, it really, you know, because because the thing is,

1564
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:38,119
you get exposed to all the stuff in the news

1565
01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:40,680
and the media, it makes you think that everybody out

1566
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:42,840
there is like this bad guy that's trying to come

1567
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:45,880
and do something to you, right, And.

1568
01:15:46,319 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: It's been a political tool for decades now that.

1569
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,359
Speaker 2: Just in the reality is like, because people are really uncommon,

1570
01:15:53,359 --> 01:15:55,760
like not to say that they don't exist, obviously they do,

1571
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:58,920
but you know, for the most part, yeah, you most

1572
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:03,640
people are fine, right, So I think unfortunately you have

1573
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:06,279
to convince that landowner that you're you're not one of

1574
01:16:06,319 --> 01:16:08,960
those usually yeah, and I think you know, throwing the

1575
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,000
snakes thing out there is so far outside the realm,

1576
01:16:13,039 --> 01:16:16,439
Like there's no excuse that any normal person would think

1577
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:19,039
of if they were nefarious, that would be I'm looking

1578
01:16:19,079 --> 01:16:22,239
for snake, right, you know, like, you know, you get

1579
01:16:22,239 --> 01:16:25,239
some nefarious person, maybe they're you know, well, also you guys.

1580
01:16:25,119 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 1: Are wearing like snake shirts and shiit. Yeah, you know,

1581
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:31,720
I try to really sell obvious. I'll tell people sometimes

1582
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:33,119
you're like, you can look at my ID man, I

1583
01:16:33,119 --> 01:16:35,079
don't care. I got nothing to hide, you know, Yeah,

1584
01:16:35,239 --> 01:16:37,399
like take my name down if you're if you're worried,

1585
01:16:37,399 --> 01:16:38,840
if you're like, you're worried, So I'm gonna go missing.

1586
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:43,279
Here's my goddamn I d you know. Yeah, but uh,

1587
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:46,560
have you met people that have really like that aren't cool?

1588
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:48,359
There's just there's no fucking way around it. This guy's

1589
01:16:48,359 --> 01:16:50,359
a dick, and he's really pissed off. Who knows, Maybe

1590
01:16:50,359 --> 01:16:53,159
he's got something going on in his life. Maybe he's

1591
01:16:53,239 --> 01:16:56,800
just had, you know, a harsh thirty years of untreated

1592
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,079
emotional trauma and anger. Who knows, you know.

1593
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, we definitely have come across those, but they are

1594
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:05,199
again not the majority really.

1595
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Most people probably chill out.

1596
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's also regional too, you know. So

1597
01:17:11,079 --> 01:17:13,960
I've found that off and down here in South Texas,

1598
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:18,199
most people are actually pretty chill, pretty cool, And it

1599
01:17:18,239 --> 01:17:20,199
can be a little bit of a demographic thing too,

1600
01:17:20,359 --> 01:17:22,239
you know, you have certain people. You know, it's like

1601
01:17:22,319 --> 01:17:25,159
South Texas is pretty chill with that anglow. People can

1602
01:17:25,239 --> 01:17:27,560
be a little bit more harsh about it than others.

1603
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:30,520
But I'd say, you know what, one of the most

1604
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:34,000
more interesting places for this actually is like just a

1605
01:17:34,279 --> 01:17:37,159
kind of west of Austin and some of that hill

1606
01:17:37,199 --> 01:17:39,840
country where you get a lot of like cattle ranchers

1607
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:44,199
and stuff there. I want to say, maybe closer to

1608
01:17:44,199 --> 01:17:48,079
like Bernie, you know, some of that area. The people

1609
01:17:48,119 --> 01:17:51,800
that I've interacted with there are very you know, like

1610
01:17:52,279 --> 01:17:54,359
you know, I had this one interaction many years ago.

1611
01:17:55,479 --> 01:17:58,880
They can a lot nastier, you know, like it's got there.

1612
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:03,079
They're more of that stereo typical like Texan that you

1613
01:18:03,119 --> 01:18:06,159
think about that wants to have the bravado And.

1614
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:09,159
Speaker 1: It might be related to the pastiness and the culture

1615
01:18:09,199 --> 01:18:11,119
that goes with it that I don't know, but I've

1616
01:18:11,159 --> 01:18:12,479
certainly experienced that too.

1617
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had this this one time I went down

1618
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:17,199
I had to pass a cattle guard and I went

1619
01:18:17,239 --> 01:18:19,640
down this dirt road and I saw this big rock

1620
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:21,600
out crop. And this was many years ago before i'd

1621
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:24,239
even seen my first rattlesnake. And I was around there

1622
01:18:24,239 --> 01:18:26,359
and I want to just go walk around it and see,

1623
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:28,880
you know, maybe there's rattlesnakes hanging around here. I don't know.

1624
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:32,399
And the rancher that actually owned the property came up

1625
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:35,720
and it's like, hey, what are you doing, And you know,

1626
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:38,199
they gave me this, well, there's no snakes around here.

1627
01:18:38,359 --> 01:18:41,000
You know, we killed them all, and you know this

1628
01:18:41,079 --> 01:18:43,399
is private, this is a private road and you need

1629
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:44,960
to get out of here. And they really, you know,

1630
01:18:45,079 --> 01:18:48,119
try to do the bocho thing, like okay, you know, yeah.

1631
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:51,960
I had another one actually was on a public road

1632
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:57,960
up near up near Freer, and I was road cruising

1633
01:18:58,000 --> 01:18:59,640
at night and I go drive down this road and

1634
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:02,159
I actually drove by their house several times. It would

1635
01:19:02,199 --> 01:19:04,520
go turn around at the cattle guard before you got

1636
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:07,640
onto the private property, and they came up behind me

1637
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,880
in like you know, a gas powered golf cart kind

1638
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:13,439
of like a mule kind of thing, and came up

1639
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:16,479
and blocked me from turning around. And then came out.

1640
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:18,840
You know, dude's got a gun, and you know they're

1641
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:23,520
trying to, you know, really say, try to try to

1642
01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:26,399
bluff me into not doing what I'm doing, you know,

1643
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:28,600
and they ask them, I'm just looking for snakes.

1644
01:19:28,199 --> 01:19:30,399
Speaker 1: You know. You know you're on a public road.

1645
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:32,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know I'm on a public room. Like here,

1646
01:19:32,239 --> 01:19:33,560
I've got you know, hunting license.

1647
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:36,720
Speaker 1: I haven't heard permit. Go join a motherfucker. Go move

1648
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:38,439
to where there's an hway if you want to act

1649
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:39,039
like that, you know.

1650
01:19:39,239 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they tried to threaten me and say, oh, well,

1651
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:44,479
you know, if you go past that cattle guard, you

1652
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:46,520
know there's people out there hunting. You know, I can't

1653
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,000
can't promise that they're not going to do something. Blah blah.

1654
01:19:49,159 --> 01:19:51,399
I'm like, I'm not going there, dude. You know, I'm

1655
01:19:51,399 --> 01:19:54,720
just on this public road. And uh, you know, they

1656
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,439
tried to call my bluff and I basically was like, no,

1657
01:19:57,640 --> 01:19:58,239
I can do this.

1658
01:19:58,359 --> 01:19:59,279
Speaker 1: You know this is legal.

1659
01:19:59,359 --> 01:20:01,520
Speaker 2: This is a public road, and you know, do it.

1660
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:02,920
And they eventually left me alone.

1661
01:20:03,199 --> 01:20:05,119
Speaker 1: Do you have any kind of app that will tell

1662
01:20:05,159 --> 01:20:07,640
you like what's public private property? Lines?

1663
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:08,680
Speaker 2: Or no?

1664
01:20:09,359 --> 01:20:11,720
Speaker 1: Somebody hooked me up with an app that does that

1665
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:13,640
because they used to work for the company, which I'm

1666
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:15,800
so grateful for whoever did that. If you're listening, I

1667
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:20,079
owe you one. And uh, it's really helpful too, because

1668
01:20:20,159 --> 01:20:22,239
like when this dude was calling the cops me for

1669
01:20:22,279 --> 01:20:24,600
planting trees, you know, I was like, man, you don't

1670
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:26,439
own this, Like I can see I'm not a fucking idiot.

1671
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:29,000
Like it's also County record, Like you don't own this.

1672
01:20:29,079 --> 01:20:31,319
You just don't want to treat there for whatever fucking reason.

1673
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:34,079
You know, also like go hit the fucking exercise bike

1674
01:20:34,119 --> 01:20:36,960
for Jesus Christ. Say, you know, like it's like worried

1675
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:42,119
about you. You look pre diabetic, buddy. Yeah, it's it's crazy though,

1676
01:20:42,119 --> 01:20:45,640
because there's so much good habitat and in geology and

1677
01:20:46,279 --> 01:20:49,640
so much that needs documenting here in this state, and

1678
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:53,239
it's there's a real impediment to it. You know. Yeah,

1679
01:20:53,399 --> 01:20:56,359
it's a drag, but it's cool to see the way

1680
01:20:56,359 --> 01:20:59,079
you guys do it though. We'll see We'll say that.

1681
01:20:59,239 --> 01:21:01,840
So where do you get the tin? Like if you can't,

1682
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:04,119
if there's not some there, where do you get the

1683
01:21:04,159 --> 01:21:05,560
ten to build these snake hotels?

1684
01:21:06,159 --> 01:21:10,079
Speaker 2: So Clint has really been invaluable in this and that

1685
01:21:10,199 --> 01:21:12,720
he's had some good connections, you know, where we've been

1686
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:15,520
able to have people essentially donate it to us, you know,

1687
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:20,600
so excuse me, he uh so, he works at the

1688
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:25,279
zoo here in Brownsville, and I guess across from the

1689
01:21:25,359 --> 01:21:27,560
zoo was a big tin building that they were going

1690
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,079
to demolish, but they're basically taking it apart. And he

1691
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:34,439
went up to him and asked like, Hey, can I

1692
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:36,520
have all this tin? You know, you guys are taking

1693
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:38,920
taking this building down? Kind of have it when y'all

1694
01:21:39,039 --> 01:21:41,560
deconstruct it. And they gave it to him and it

1695
01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:45,399
was well over a thousand sheets. And where do you

1696
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:53,920
store it? It's in Clint's backyard. Yeah, a massive bastion

1697
01:21:54,079 --> 01:21:57,079
of tin right now. And we've been slowly making a

1698
01:21:57,239 --> 01:21:59,039
dent into it because he's had it a few years.

1699
01:21:59,079 --> 01:22:00,439
And then you know, of course, just we can we

1700
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:03,239
end up getting three of those piles out, you know,

1701
01:22:03,239 --> 01:22:06,319
about one hundred and fifty sheets of ten getting those

1702
01:22:06,359 --> 01:22:07,239
set out right now?

1703
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:09,479
Speaker 1: Wow, how will you guys transport it?

1704
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:11,159
Speaker 2: So we just yeah, throw it in the back of

1705
01:22:11,319 --> 01:22:13,399
back of his truck. Can we go drive down to

1706
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:16,079
our you know, liminal spaces and go.

1707
01:22:16,039 --> 01:22:18,520
Speaker 1: And normally set up with like ten sheets.

1708
01:22:18,319 --> 01:22:21,479
Speaker 2: So we do five layer stacks. So basically what we

1709
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:24,800
do is we'll clear out the the grass or whatever

1710
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:29,159
groundcover is there and create a footprint for it. And

1711
01:22:29,239 --> 01:22:30,439
what we do is we lay.

1712
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:32,960
Speaker 1: Use shovels or like maddex or something or what.

1713
01:22:33,039 --> 01:22:35,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got a Mattic and we've got you know,

1714
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:39,800
basically garden hoe. I really like pro hos. They're very

1715
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:45,479
it's like it's got a a pro Yeah, Brennan likes

1716
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:48,560
to just call them pros, but uh yeah. So so

1717
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:52,720
we get get these, uh and basically clear out the ground,

1718
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:55,720
and we get two sheets of ten that basically overlap

1719
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:58,439
about halfway on onto each other for the bottom right,

1720
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:00,960
and then we just kind of layer the like that.

1721
01:23:01,159 --> 01:23:04,199
So they've got this small overlap of about you know,

1722
01:23:04,279 --> 01:23:07,000
about a foot in the middle right. So it's like

1723
01:23:07,039 --> 01:23:09,119
if you took a deck of cards and you're shuffling

1724
01:23:09,119 --> 01:23:12,000
that deck of cards, how they overlap one right after

1725
01:23:12,039 --> 01:23:12,520
the other.

1726
01:23:12,359 --> 01:23:14,720
Speaker 1: And they're not directly on top of each other, right,

1727
01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:16,479
it's literally like the deck of card.

1728
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So it's offset. So you have about a

1729
01:23:19,079 --> 01:23:21,880
foot overlap and then that's your footprint, so you and

1730
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:25,840
then we layer about five at a time. I don't

1731
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:28,760
actually know what the five on each side or five total,

1732
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:31,239
five totals, so I don't know what the actual ideal

1733
01:23:31,319 --> 01:23:33,439
number is. But that's really worked for us. And as

1734
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:35,640
you can see, we got a whole bunch of fucking

1735
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:36,319
snakes with that.

1736
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the news we're loving it too, like everything

1737
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,359
loves it. And that's what I think too, is I

1738
01:23:42,399 --> 01:23:45,359
think about that, like, where would this stuff be. It's

1739
01:23:45,399 --> 01:23:49,199
so obviously attracted to this habitat that you're building for it.

1740
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:51,640
Where would it be otherwise? And would there be as

1741
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:53,680
many you know, I think.

1742
01:23:53,560 --> 01:23:56,359
Speaker 2: That they you know, they're they're going to use either

1743
01:23:56,439 --> 01:23:59,760
underground refuge that maybe allows them to be close to this,

1744
01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:02,239
you know, where the surface can be a little bit

1745
01:24:02,239 --> 01:24:06,479
warmer there. But it's obviously that kind of stuff's not ideal, right,

1746
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:09,399
or maybe they're in a rotting log, right, but it's

1747
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:13,840
limited in the ideal conditions for them, right. So then

1748
01:24:14,279 --> 01:24:17,159
once you've set this tin out in their habitat, it's

1749
01:24:17,199 --> 01:24:20,159
like a magnet, you know, and they're just drawn to it.

1750
01:24:20,199 --> 01:24:23,279
And one of the most remarkable things that I've seen

1751
01:24:23,319 --> 01:24:25,279
and witness and it has really been this year, is

1752
01:24:25,359 --> 01:24:30,039
seeing how they know about multiple tin stacks. You know,

1753
01:24:30,079 --> 01:24:31,840
it's not like you just see the same animal goes

1754
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:35,000
and finds that one. It's gone through this habitat in

1755
01:24:35,039 --> 01:24:38,600
a significant range and found all these tin stacks.

1756
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:41,399
Speaker 1: So you see, you keep track of like individuals, yea,

1757
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:45,600
of the individual animals doing everything short of naming them,

1758
01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:46,680
we do.

1759
01:24:46,840 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 2: We do give them names, you know, once we've seen

1760
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:51,479
them twice. You know, we usually are like, okay, you know,

1761
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,800
what's a good name for this, come up with We've

1762
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:57,239
got this one. Clint came up with this, but it's

1763
01:24:57,279 --> 01:24:59,000
a it's a really it's one of the most stunning

1764
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:02,119
milk snakes that we've scene. And a buddy said, it's

1765
01:25:02,119 --> 01:25:05,359
like the Ferrari of milksnakes. So the guy who created

1766
01:25:05,399 --> 01:25:08,920
Ferrari is named Enzo Ferrari. So we like to make

1767
01:25:08,920 --> 01:25:11,239
a little puns, you know, based off ten So this

1768
01:25:11,279 --> 01:25:12,600
is Tenzo Ferrari.

1769
01:25:15,039 --> 01:25:16,079
Speaker 1: Nice to ital your name.

1770
01:25:16,239 --> 01:25:21,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know we've got milk clearing, you know,

1771
01:25:22,079 --> 01:25:24,600
like you know, so just silly things like that. Yeah,

1772
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:28,039
we can kind of keep up with them, you know.

1773
01:25:28,159 --> 01:25:31,720
So you know, you see them multiple times. You get

1774
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:33,840
to know these animals and it's really cool seeing them

1775
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:38,399
using either the same stack atin or you're going, you know,

1776
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:41,960
and maybe this week it's in this stack of tin,

1777
01:25:42,079 --> 01:25:44,159
and then a couple of months later you find it

1778
01:25:44,159 --> 01:25:47,000
one hundred yards away or half a mile away in

1779
01:25:47,079 --> 01:25:49,840
another stack of tin. And it's kind of remarkable the

1780
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:53,359
range that that animal has and how much it's moved.

1781
01:25:54,199 --> 01:25:57,439
But regardless of wherever it is, it's picking that stack

1782
01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,760
of tin in the habitat to stay in.

1783
01:26:00,279 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, It's not like staying in ten once then

1784
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:05,000
going to a log and you never see it again.

1785
01:26:05,039 --> 01:26:06,359
It's like they're attracted to the tin.

1786
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:09,159
Speaker 2: They love it so much that that's like where they

1787
01:26:09,199 --> 01:26:09,680
want to be.

1788
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:12,680
Speaker 1: Do you have indigos you see like the same individual

1789
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:14,359
indegoes or is it a little harder with them because

1790
01:26:14,399 --> 01:26:15,800
the power is not there.

1791
01:26:16,239 --> 01:26:18,319
Speaker 2: I think you have a more limited time with the

1792
01:26:18,359 --> 01:26:20,920
indigo where you know, like you saw, most of what

1793
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:24,439
we flipped on our outing were juveniles that were either

1794
01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:28,000
young of this year or younger last year, and they

1795
01:26:28,359 --> 01:26:30,840
can fit under the tin at that time, but at

1796
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,640
a certain point they grow out of it. Right, they're going

1797
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:35,640
to be too big. So you know, some of the

1798
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:37,680
ten that we have gets cleared out on the bottom

1799
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:41,239
by pack rats and you can get big indigos under that.

1800
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:44,039
But at a certain point it's like, yeah, you get

1801
01:26:44,079 --> 01:26:47,520
to see the same individual because it's we usually assume

1802
01:26:47,560 --> 01:26:49,279
that it's the same one because they're harder to tell

1803
01:26:49,319 --> 01:26:52,439
the difference in. But they'll be hanging out maybe in

1804
01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:55,000
that tin for a while using it.

1805
01:26:55,079 --> 01:26:56,920
Speaker 1: I wonder, what the is it a native pack rat,

1806
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:58,399
you know, or is it they just look like roof

1807
01:26:58,479 --> 01:26:59,000
rats or what?

1808
01:27:00,079 --> 01:27:01,520
Speaker 2: Think that they are native?

1809
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:03,680
Speaker 1: But they still have that big do they have the

1810
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:07,359
tail like the roof rats kind of like fleshy possum

1811
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:08,239
like tail, or what.

1812
01:27:09,279 --> 01:27:14,319
Speaker 2: The big neotomas do. Yeah, I'm not that familiar with the.

1813
01:27:14,279 --> 01:27:16,800
Speaker 1: Different species going on. I'm just curious and.

1814
01:27:17,199 --> 01:27:19,039
Speaker 2: You know, like, oh, that's just full of rats.

1815
01:27:19,079 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 1: I'm curious what's been able to because all the landers

1816
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:24,880
has been scraped clean, you know, one hundred years ago whenever,

1817
01:27:25,279 --> 01:27:27,720
it's all like there's so little habitat left. I'm just

1818
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:30,800
curious what's been able to survive that initial scraping, Like

1819
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:34,199
what natives are? That's cool though, so the pack rats

1820
01:27:34,279 --> 01:27:37,119
end up Yeah, using it too, like everything is.

1821
01:27:37,159 --> 01:27:39,000
Speaker 2: Using Yeah, so rodents use it.

1822
01:27:39,079 --> 01:27:39,279
Speaker 1: You know.

1823
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:42,039
Speaker 2: Sometimes we'll flip through it and there's like, you know,

1824
01:27:42,039 --> 01:27:44,359
a whole family of rodents in there, you know, fifteen

1825
01:27:44,399 --> 01:27:47,319
or twenty mice you know, just all come scurrying out

1826
01:27:47,359 --> 01:27:49,680
when we go flip it and kind of ruin their house.

1827
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:54,079
Speaker 1: You know. Do you guys keep data on this? I

1828
01:27:54,119 --> 01:27:55,760
mean beyond photos.

1829
01:27:56,840 --> 01:27:59,399
Speaker 2: Not a lot, but you know, as we are encountering

1830
01:27:59,399 --> 01:28:02,079
the same individuals over and over, you know, I think

1831
01:28:02,119 --> 01:28:03,920
that's kind of drawn a little bit of interest in

1832
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:05,920
maybe keeping some more data about it.

1833
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:06,119
Speaker 1: You know.

1834
01:28:06,199 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 2: One thing that's been interesting is seeing a snake, and

1835
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:12,119
it seems like the milk snakes at a certain point

1836
01:28:12,239 --> 01:28:16,079
have this huge growth spurt. And we found this one.

1837
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:19,640
We named him Dirk the Dangler because the first time

1838
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:23,000
that we saw him, we flipped over this big, you know,

1839
01:28:23,079 --> 01:28:27,760
four x eight board and he was dangling from underneath

1840
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:29,800
it because there's a little bit of a cavity. And

1841
01:28:30,399 --> 01:28:33,760
he was maybe a young adult snake, you know, probably

1842
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:38,399
twenty twenty five inches or so. And I want to

1843
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:40,800
say it was about a year later we found him,

1844
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:43,479
and he was just enormous. It's like he went through

1845
01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:46,319
this huge growth. When you saw him the time, he

1846
01:28:46,399 --> 01:28:52,880
was almost three feet you know, he was a big yes, Yeah,

1847
01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:55,199
that's cool Jesus. So we got to see him a

1848
01:28:55,239 --> 01:28:57,520
second time. He was very obvious because he's got these

1849
01:28:57,560 --> 01:29:01,079
like white flares on his nostrils and kind of like

1850
01:29:01,119 --> 01:29:02,640
one of his bands has a little bit of a

1851
01:29:02,640 --> 01:29:03,000
different So.

1852
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 1: It's easy to tell him apart when you've got the

1853
01:29:06,319 --> 01:29:09,479
milksnakes are very easy to tell. There's so much I mean,

1854
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:12,359
especially since you know that cell phone photos with metadata,

1855
01:29:12,359 --> 01:29:14,800
there's so much data there already. I mean, you've got

1856
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:18,439
a record of these things that probably I would imagine

1857
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:21,960
there's no one really paying attention. Maybe there's some agencies.

1858
01:29:22,319 --> 01:29:24,560
I don't think that anybody, But it's South Texas now,

1859
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:25,560
no one's doing this.

1860
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,079
Speaker 2: We're the first people to do stuff like this.

1861
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:31,520
Speaker 1: And if someone's doing this for a job, like doing

1862
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:34,159
a survey for reptiles, they're not going out. They can't

1863
01:29:34,159 --> 01:29:36,960
go to private land, they can't go to the margins of.

1864
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:40,880
Speaker 2: A public land and or you know, like some kind

1865
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:43,319
of refuge or something like that. And to be honest,

1866
01:29:43,359 --> 01:29:45,520
they're not very good at it either. You know, they're

1867
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:47,960
not they're not very good at targeting them because you

1868
01:29:48,039 --> 01:29:50,239
have to you have to know the animal. And this

1869
01:29:50,279 --> 01:29:52,399
is something that we've learned of the last decade is

1870
01:29:52,760 --> 01:29:55,800
what exactly that animal wants is you can see, we

1871
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:56,680
can give it to them.

1872
01:29:56,800 --> 01:29:56,960
Speaker 1: Right.

1873
01:29:57,079 --> 01:30:00,439
Speaker 2: So, you know what a herpetologist is going to do

1874
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:02,800
is they're going to go set up a grid. You know,

1875
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:05,319
it'll be like a board and then maybe a sheet

1876
01:30:05,319 --> 01:30:07,439
of ten and maybe a board. They're all going to

1877
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:10,000
be cut to an exact size, so it'll be like

1878
01:30:10,039 --> 01:30:12,399
a two foot by two foot board, a two foot

1879
01:30:12,399 --> 01:30:14,520
by two foot piece of ten, and they're gonna go

1880
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:18,239
set them, you know, specified number of feet apart over

1881
01:30:18,319 --> 01:30:21,439
this little grid that they've made, and they're gonna have

1882
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:26,039
a relatively low number of incidental encounters, right, And they'll

1883
01:30:26,079 --> 01:30:28,239
be like, okay, well, I'm gonna go survey it, you

1884
01:30:28,279 --> 01:30:31,000
know these times once a month and go check what's

1885
01:30:31,079 --> 01:30:33,880
using it. And I don't think it gives you a

1886
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:38,039
real understanding of the populations that are there because you

1887
01:30:38,119 --> 01:30:42,039
have incidental you know, you have such a small window

1888
01:30:42,199 --> 01:30:44,359
to actually encounter the animal.

1889
01:30:44,399 --> 01:30:47,279
Speaker 1: Also, you're working for a fucking agency too, which has

1890
01:30:47,319 --> 01:30:50,279
read you have to you're stuck and there's things you

1891
01:30:50,319 --> 01:30:52,960
can't do, you know, yeah, that you guys can't because

1892
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:55,000
you're doing it for free for yourselves because it just

1893
01:30:55,159 --> 01:30:57,920
gives you dopamine and it's fun, and it's like, it's

1894
01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:01,600
I see that so much with I'll have kids write

1895
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:02,880
me and they're like, what should I do to get

1896
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:05,960
a job in botany. I'm like, don't, man, Just nerd

1897
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:08,079
the fuck out and immerse yourself in this and use

1898
01:31:08,119 --> 01:31:10,079
it as the medicine that keeps you alive when you're

1899
01:31:10,079 --> 01:31:13,720
dealing with how much you know, life sucks, which I

1900
01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:15,960
don't think I love life. I'm just saying, you know,

1901
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:18,640
I think it's there's a lot of bullshit a lot

1902
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:20,000
of people have to deal with, and this is like

1903
01:31:20,079 --> 01:31:22,439
a nice medicine for it when you're doing it for

1904
01:31:22,479 --> 01:31:25,319
that and you're not trapped in some agency or department

1905
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:28,840
or you don't worry about your reputation or whatever. You know.

1906
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:31,039
Speaker 2: I think it kills the joy and a lot of

1907
01:31:31,039 --> 01:31:35,199
the people that went to academia because they loved animals

1908
01:31:35,359 --> 01:31:41,520
or some kind of science, you know, they're studying mammals, megafauna, herbs, whatever.

1909
01:31:42,359 --> 01:31:45,920
I think the way academia is just kills that joy

1910
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:49,600
because you're so stifled and how you can go about studying.

1911
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:52,199
Speaker 1: I think it's good to go to academia, but only

1912
01:31:52,239 --> 01:31:55,479
for if your go if you're doing go for the knowledge. Yeah,

1913
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:57,279
don't be like I'm doing this so I can get

1914
01:31:57,279 --> 01:31:59,119
a piece of paper and a degree. It's no go

1915
01:31:59,279 --> 01:32:00,199
for the knowledge.

1916
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:02,760
Speaker 2: It's stuck trying to get funding and they have to

1917
01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:06,079
come up with these bullshit projects to get to continue

1918
01:32:06,079 --> 01:32:07,399
to get funding. And I think.

1919
01:32:07,199 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 1: That's in a society that's acomy because of that, in

1920
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:13,800
a society that doesn't want to fund science. Yeah, you know,

1921
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:16,319
where everything is just business, business, business. The best thing

1922
01:32:16,359 --> 01:32:18,079
you can do is I'm a businessman. I'm a bit

1923
01:32:18,159 --> 01:32:22,880
you know, I'm an entrepreneur. There's no funding for especially

1924
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:26,119
for natural sciences, because there's no there's people don't see

1925
01:32:26,119 --> 01:32:28,439
innate benefit in this, Like what is the innate benefit

1926
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:31,239
in studying reptiles. It's going to benefit humanity, you know

1927
01:32:31,319 --> 01:32:33,399
as well. It's part of the living skin. It's a

1928
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:36,199
cog in this living machine. It's important. These things we

1929
01:32:36,239 --> 01:32:38,560
want to prevent from going extinct. We want to nurture,

1930
01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:40,600
you know. But that doesn't worry. It's kind of how

1931
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:42,960
does it benefits or we could use it for pharmaceuticals

1932
01:32:43,039 --> 01:32:44,840
or something. Is it how about a.

1933
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:48,239
Speaker 2: Zoom benefits this because it's part of the living you know,

1934
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:50,159
gears that make the world.

1935
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:51,439
Speaker 1: Work right exactly.

1936
01:32:51,560 --> 01:32:55,399
Speaker 2: And that's it's hard to like get somebody to really

1937
01:32:55,439 --> 01:32:56,840
believe the value in that.

1938
01:32:56,840 --> 01:33:00,319
Speaker 1: That's with my friend Alan who studies mushrooms and it's

1939
01:33:00,399 --> 01:33:04,640
just so fucking immersed in it and in love with it.

1940
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:09,199
And it's like he's discovering their species all the time,

1941
01:33:09,279 --> 01:33:12,840
and you know, he does DNA sequence thing and you know,

1942
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:15,079
I'm like, why has no one this has been here,

1943
01:33:15,239 --> 01:33:19,479
This species has been here forever. You know, if last

1944
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:21,800
one hundred years people have been studying mycology for a while,

1945
01:33:21,800 --> 01:33:24,079
why has no one done this taxonomic work on it?

1946
01:33:24,119 --> 01:33:26,039
Is because there's no money in it. There's no benefit

1947
01:33:26,079 --> 01:33:29,720
from it. It's like Jesus man and you're you're learning

1948
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:33,199
so much and you're you're acquiring so much data and

1949
01:33:33,279 --> 01:33:37,279
insight into how the living world works, and our society

1950
01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:41,720
doesn't value it monetize, you know, our only values that

1951
01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:43,239
if it's a certain way. So that I think the

1952
01:33:43,279 --> 01:33:45,239
moral of the story is we need more people doing

1953
01:33:45,279 --> 01:33:48,800
this and keeping track of this, and of all these things,

1954
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:51,319
we need more herp nerds, we need more her words,

1955
01:33:51,319 --> 01:33:53,239
and the more people that are out there keeping track

1956
01:33:53,279 --> 01:33:56,479
of it, the easier it will be to protect.

1957
01:33:56,760 --> 01:33:58,640
Speaker 2: You know, I think so because I think if you

1958
01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:01,560
can go and you can operating these spaces where you can,

1959
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:04,079
you know, you go find that that plot of land

1960
01:34:04,159 --> 01:34:06,800
that nobody's using, nobody's doing anything with right now, right

1961
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:11,960
at some point, unless you know, you've developed a community

1962
01:34:12,039 --> 01:34:14,600
that loves that for maybe the opportunity to go see

1963
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:17,560
certain animals. They're going to build a fucking parking lot

1964
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:19,680
on it or put those people general.

1965
01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:22,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, my friend Arnesta was talking about that they turned

1966
01:34:22,399 --> 01:34:24,800
there was a patch of it was all second growth.

1967
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:27,760
It was Paulo Verde and you know vicelia and other stuff.

1968
01:34:28,159 --> 01:34:30,680
You know, there's those weedy native legumes. It was a

1969
01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:32,600
patch of growth and they just bulldozed it to put

1970
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:35,359
up some fucking hideous make mansions. The ship they built

1971
01:34:35,359 --> 01:34:38,119
it so ugly. But uh, and he was, you know,

1972
01:34:38,319 --> 01:34:40,600
he was talking about and I saw coyotes running out

1973
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:42,119
of it and all this other stuff. I'm like, man,

1974
01:34:42,199 --> 01:34:45,800
imagine what can only imagine what reptiles might have been

1975
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:47,600
in there and now it's all gone, and no, it's

1976
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:51,399
nobody pays attention, No one cares. Everyone's oblivious except for

1977
01:34:51,439 --> 01:34:53,239
one or two people that maybe Yeah.

1978
01:34:53,239 --> 01:34:56,439
Speaker 2: And I think one of the great benefits to getting

1979
01:34:56,439 --> 01:35:00,000
more herpers which is it's it's a hard thing, right,

1980
01:35:00,079 --> 01:35:03,479
because sometimes you don't want more people coming in and like,

1981
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:06,000
we have to be very secretive about everything, right, you

1982
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:09,680
don't want those people to find your stuff. Let's yeah,

1983
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:12,399
talk more about that. But like, the more people who

1984
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:15,560
are interested in it, they can go and know, Okay,

1985
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:19,279
this space has these living organisms, right, and the more

1986
01:35:19,399 --> 01:35:22,720
public knowledge that is, I think you have a growing

1987
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:25,760
population of youth, you know, gen Z and the next

1988
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:29,880
generation that care about that stuff. But they just have

1989
01:35:29,960 --> 01:35:32,880
to know, right and then go and basically okay, well

1990
01:35:33,359 --> 01:35:35,439
you know they they want to develop this ship here

1991
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:37,760
and do this to it. Well, we actually know what

1992
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:40,399
lives there and care about it. It's able to go.

1993
01:35:41,239 --> 01:35:45,079
It's just some patch of grass, right. You have multiple

1994
01:35:45,159 --> 01:35:47,560
plant species, You have all these different animals that are

1995
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:50,880
secretive that you can't find unless you go lay out boards.

1996
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:53,399
Speaker 1: You some of them are very rare, and there's things

1997
01:35:53,439 --> 01:35:55,680
that live there and they have a fucking right to exist,

1998
01:35:55,720 --> 01:35:57,720
and you don't get to just put up your sleazy,

1999
01:35:57,760 --> 01:35:59,840
get rich quick scheme of these houses that are going

2000
01:35:59,920 --> 01:36:03,079
to be obsolete in forty years because they were built

2001
01:36:03,079 --> 01:36:05,319
with fucking you know pine.

2002
01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:08,800
Speaker 2: The reality is, we can take the spaces that we

2003
01:36:08,880 --> 01:36:11,680
have and make better use of it. Yeah right, you know,

2004
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:16,039
we can develop urbanized areas better than just a fucking

2005
01:36:16,119 --> 01:36:17,920
parking lot everywhere.

2006
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:19,880
Speaker 1: And leave patches intact too. Like that's the thing that

2007
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:22,560
drives me nuts. Like when the way it's set up,

2008
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:24,479
especially in this state, is like they come in, they

2009
01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:28,239
take everything, like they don't build any reason of even

2010
01:36:28,319 --> 01:36:32,199
keeping the fucking trees in a certain neighborhood. Like don't

2011
01:36:32,199 --> 01:36:35,760
you want trees around? You're gonna scrape everything clean, leave.

2012
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:38,800
Speaker 2: The latin and plant a token live oak or something.

2013
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, that was that's from the Florida populations.

2014
01:36:41,960 --> 01:36:44,199
So it's not even adjusted to the dryer Texas heat,

2015
01:36:44,399 --> 01:36:46,560
you know, where it's like, yeah, you build your fucking

2016
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:51,079
stupid housing tract of these you know, car dependent you know,

2017
01:36:51,279 --> 01:36:53,680
slums with the fucking retail plaza or whatever, but like

2018
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:58,399
leave a patch of habitat somewhere in the midst of

2019
01:36:58,439 --> 01:37:01,199
all that. Intact, it's not idea. It may not be

2020
01:37:01,319 --> 01:37:03,640
enough for some things, but there's a point in leaving

2021
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:06,239
that there. It's cooling the landscape, holding the soil together,

2022
01:37:06,520 --> 01:37:11,039
acting as a bank for seeds and the organisms that

2023
01:37:11,119 --> 01:37:13,880
live there, the insects, the birds, like you need to

2024
01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:15,840
do bet our society doesn't even do that. Like again,

2025
01:37:15,880 --> 01:37:18,520
it's this living machine thing is so fucking irrelevant, Like,

2026
01:37:18,600 --> 01:37:20,640
leave it there. It's a fucking machine. Leave it. It's

2027
01:37:20,680 --> 01:37:23,199
serving a purpose, you fucking idiot. You know. See, I

2028
01:37:23,199 --> 01:37:25,119
get really worked up, which it's not. I should not

2029
01:37:25,199 --> 01:37:27,319
be the one to I should not be the the

2030
01:37:27,680 --> 01:37:30,399
I'm not a diplomat, but still it just you look

2031
01:37:30,439 --> 01:37:33,199
at places like Fort Worth in Dallas and they're just

2032
01:37:33,279 --> 01:37:37,079
these sprawling shittles where everything's been taken, and I have

2033
01:37:37,159 --> 01:37:39,520
friends there who are bodanists and they're just man, it's

2034
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:41,920
got to hurt so much that fucking Now the Leopold

2035
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:44,359
quote about the more awareness you have, you're just like

2036
01:37:44,439 --> 01:37:46,399
living on a world of wounds, you know, because you

2037
01:37:46,439 --> 01:37:49,720
know what's been lost, And then they're shifting baselines and

2038
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:52,079
people don't know what's been lost because they were never

2039
01:37:52,119 --> 01:37:55,840
paying attention in the first place. The parents weren't and

2040
01:37:55,880 --> 01:37:59,680
it's crazy, but I mean, huge swaths of things are

2041
01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:03,479
just not here anymore. Yeah, of living things are just gone,

2042
01:38:03,720 --> 01:38:06,720
just wiped out. You know, they might be still extants,

2043
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:10,039
still living somewhere else, but they're extirpated from the region. Okay,

2044
01:38:10,039 --> 01:38:13,000
Well I want to talk about Yeah, you guys are

2045
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:16,760
understandably very secretive about certain things because spots can get

2046
01:38:16,760 --> 01:38:19,359
blown up. And I've noticed this in all Herpers I've

2047
01:38:19,359 --> 01:38:23,199
met and that I've made friends with, you know, California, Arizona, wherever.

2048
01:38:23,359 --> 01:38:26,359
What's up with that? Like, what can to someone listening

2049
01:38:26,399 --> 01:38:28,079
who may not understand it? How would you put it?

2050
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,479
Speaker 2: Well, there's two aspects to it. One, it's like, you

2051
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:34,680
don't want people to come there and collect animals, right,

2052
01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:37,800
because that's going to directly impact your ability to observe

2053
01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:40,520
them if you start taking individuals out of the population,

2054
01:38:40,800 --> 01:38:44,880
right you know. So I think there's that's the initial fear,

2055
01:38:45,079 --> 01:38:49,079
and that comes from that mentality that at the old

2056
01:38:49,119 --> 01:38:52,720
guard the old older herpers used to go and collect stuff, right,

2057
01:38:52,760 --> 01:38:54,479
you know, that was part of their hobbies.

2058
01:38:54,479 --> 01:38:58,399
Speaker 1: This is fighting fifties forties, like twentieth century, mid twentieth century.

2059
01:38:58,279 --> 01:39:01,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, anywhere from the forties, probably the seventies, you know,

2060
01:39:01,079 --> 01:39:03,159
and I think it's kind of dwindled since then. Right,

2061
01:39:03,199 --> 01:39:06,640
you go out and part of your herping is collecting stuff.

2062
01:39:06,399 --> 01:39:08,079
Speaker 1: What would they do? We keep them in tanks and

2063
01:39:08,119 --> 01:39:09,039
breed them or something, or.

2064
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:11,479
Speaker 2: Go sell them, you know, to people who are interested

2065
01:39:11,560 --> 01:39:13,159
in finding them, you know. So that was a lot

2066
01:39:13,159 --> 01:39:14,720
of the fervor. It's like, oh, let's go out and

2067
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:16,319
find these animals and then we're going to go sell

2068
01:39:16,319 --> 01:39:21,239
them and they breed them or whatever. Right, But you know,

2069
01:39:21,279 --> 01:39:24,159
now there's there's so many less animals. You don't have

2070
01:39:24,279 --> 01:39:29,560
these speak strongholds of animals anywhere. There's obviously exceptions to that, right,

2071
01:39:29,680 --> 01:39:32,640
but you know, if we went and collected every milk

2072
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:35,000
snake that we found, you know, we wouldn't We wouldn't

2073
01:39:35,039 --> 01:39:37,479
have any more milk snakes, right, you know, these are

2074
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:41,399
small patches of habitat that supports a population. But the

2075
01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:44,439
more I've spent time at this, the more the less

2076
01:39:45,079 --> 01:39:47,239
animals I think are there, because we keep seeing the

2077
01:39:47,239 --> 01:39:50,319
same individuals over and over, so it's like, well, how

2078
01:39:50,359 --> 01:39:51,880
many of them are really here?

2079
01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:54,600
Speaker 1: So you think populations are still declining.

2080
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:59,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, as long as, like, if you have good habitat,

2081
01:40:00,039 --> 01:40:02,119
I think that population can be stable. But if you

2082
01:40:02,159 --> 01:40:05,880
go pull individuals out, I think then you are directly

2083
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:07,680
impacting that And if you do it at a rate

2084
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:10,960
faster than they can replenish, then you're going to lose

2085
01:40:11,079 --> 01:40:12,359
that population.

2086
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:15,319
Speaker 1: For species that don't benefit from humans being there, like

2087
01:40:15,399 --> 01:40:19,840
you know, coyotes or ravens or whatever, magpies and fucking

2088
01:40:20,319 --> 01:40:23,760
grackles whatever. I think. Yeah, like it can only gets

2089
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:26,000
so big when all the habitat's gone.

2090
01:40:26,279 --> 01:40:29,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there is a limit to that space, right,

2091
01:40:29,039 --> 01:40:31,319
And you can have artificial densities like we talked about,

2092
01:40:31,319 --> 01:40:35,319
because you've got maybe a monoculture that supports more rodents

2093
01:40:35,439 --> 01:40:36,960
and then you know, you can get this kind of

2094
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:40,760
artificial increased number of certain animals based on the change

2095
01:40:40,760 --> 01:40:43,479
in the habitat. But there's still a limit to that, right.

2096
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:46,520
So that's one aspect, you know, is you don't want

2097
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:49,600
people to go through and collect. But also you know

2098
01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:53,039
there's the social media aspect to herping, right because you

2099
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:56,000
go and you know, I like posting and sharing the

2100
01:40:56,039 --> 01:40:58,399
stuff because I'm excited about the animals that I've found,

2101
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:00,880
and I want people to be more interested in the

2102
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:04,359
natural world. But you have people that follow and want

2103
01:41:04,479 --> 01:41:07,680
to go find where you found those animals? Right, They

2104
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:09,920
want to go to that spot because they either need

2105
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:12,319
to check it off on a life list or they

2106
01:41:12,359 --> 01:41:13,000
just want the.

2107
01:41:13,159 --> 01:41:18,520
Speaker 1: Social validation a social social validation.

2108
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:20,520
Speaker 2: Want to they want the likes, they want all the

2109
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:22,800
comments that say, oh wow, that's awesome that you found that.

2110
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:25,520
You know, and I get that to a certain extent,

2111
01:41:25,560 --> 01:41:28,920
but then when you know, when they're their whole goal

2112
01:41:29,039 --> 01:41:32,520
then becomes to get that. So the methods that they

2113
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:35,199
use is they they go look through people's videos and

2114
01:41:35,279 --> 01:41:38,159
pictures and they try to piece together all these different

2115
01:41:38,159 --> 01:41:42,600
clues from the background to go find exactly where they went, right,

2116
01:41:42,680 --> 01:41:45,720
you know, So they do they become this internet sleuth

2117
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:48,560
for the wrong reason where they go find this spot

2118
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:52,119
to go see my animals, well my quote unquote right

2119
01:41:52,399 --> 01:41:55,800
that I've seen, and that can ruin a spot, right

2120
01:41:55,840 --> 01:41:58,079
because then okay, this person found it and they go

2121
01:41:58,159 --> 01:41:58,680
tell their.

2122
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:01,600
Speaker 1: More draftic it's blowing. Suddenly you get someone in there,

2123
01:42:01,640 --> 01:42:04,279
he's either gonna make a mistake, fuck up the habitat,

2124
01:42:04,319 --> 01:42:07,079
take something whatever. And also I think the goal is

2125
01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:10,039
when you're doing it for that and it's you see

2126
01:42:10,039 --> 01:42:13,279
this with everything and related to social media, it becomes

2127
01:42:13,359 --> 01:42:17,520
less about education and educating others and inspiring others and

2128
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:19,960
being like, yeah, this is medicine from the fucking garbage

2129
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:22,840
out in the world that we've created, this consumer dystopia,

2130
01:42:23,039 --> 01:42:25,880
and it becomes more about social I need social validation.

2131
01:42:26,079 --> 01:42:27,600
They may not be aware of it, you know.

2132
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:29,560
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it's I think it's their natural tendency.

2133
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:31,840
Speaker 1: People want to watch sad twenties. Man. Like when I

2134
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:33,439
was twenty, I was doing all kinds of dumb shit

2135
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:36,640
that I wasn't aware of. I had no self awareness,

2136
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:40,159
no self insight, you know, I hadn't really experimented with

2137
01:42:40,199 --> 01:42:43,119
psychedelics enough yet too, so there was yeah, man, I

2138
01:42:43,159 --> 01:42:46,479
it's so. I'm not shitting on anybody, but I definitely

2139
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:49,159
think it's. Yeah, there's something to be said for blowing

2140
01:42:49,239 --> 01:42:49,800
up a spot.

2141
01:42:50,119 --> 01:42:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you get that increased traffic. You know, I

2142
01:42:52,960 --> 01:42:55,640
don't want to go to a spot and know, oh,

2143
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:58,760
well these kids from Florida were just here last week

2144
01:42:58,800 --> 01:43:02,560
and they just flipped this stuff. And eventually also the animals,

2145
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:04,880
you know, I think they can only take so much

2146
01:43:04,960 --> 01:43:06,000
interaction now.

2147
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:08,399
Speaker 1: Man exist for our amusement.

2148
01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:11,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they I think milk snakes, you know,

2149
01:43:11,399 --> 01:43:12,760
as much as all of them. I think they're kind

2150
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:14,920
of dumb, you know, and I think they can they

2151
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:17,159
can take a little bit of abuse in terms of that,

2152
01:43:17,199 --> 01:43:19,119
because we do see them come back, you know, they

2153
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:22,199
stay in those ten stacks. We see the same animals, right,

2154
01:43:22,239 --> 01:43:27,359
but I would say the higher intelligence snakes don't come

2155
01:43:27,399 --> 01:43:31,159
back sometimes, right, you know, like coach whips for example,

2156
01:43:31,319 --> 01:43:35,600
are very they'll have site fidelity for for a little while,

2157
01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:37,399
but if you start messing with them, you pick them up,

2158
01:43:37,399 --> 01:43:39,520
you pull them for photos, you know, maybe you get

2159
01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:40,439
to see them one more time.

2160
01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:43,319
Speaker 1: The the same genus as whip snakes or related.

2161
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:46,039
Speaker 2: They're related. Yeah, so they used to they're supposed to

2162
01:43:46,039 --> 01:43:48,079
be really smart too. Yeah, they used to be the

2163
01:43:48,119 --> 01:43:52,399
same genus. Uh, they got divided whether or not, you know,

2164
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:57,119
but the same thing. It's that it's a terrestrial snake

2165
01:43:57,199 --> 01:44:00,319
that's fast moving, it hunts down its prey and it's

2166
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:03,000
very Uh they have good eyes sight, you know, they're

2167
01:44:03,079 --> 01:44:04,039
very strongly aware.

2168
01:44:05,079 --> 01:44:08,199
Speaker 1: To them is like the velociraptors of like very smart.

2169
01:44:08,359 --> 01:44:11,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they are very smart. And like chasing other

2170
01:44:11,159 --> 01:44:12,960
prerie and also evading predators.

2171
01:44:13,039 --> 01:44:13,199
Speaker 1: Right.

2172
01:44:13,239 --> 01:44:15,399
Speaker 2: You know, they're very good at, you know, shooting up

2173
01:44:15,399 --> 01:44:17,760
a tree or something. You know, while you're standing around

2174
01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:20,359
looking at the ground, it's already it's already twenty feet

2175
01:44:20,399 --> 01:44:20,880
up a tree.

2176
01:44:21,039 --> 01:44:21,239
Speaker 1: You know.

2177
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:27,000
Speaker 2: So they don't respond well to being flipped a lot,

2178
01:44:27,159 --> 01:44:29,760
you know. Now there is exceptions to that, because I

2179
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:32,760
know of a guy who had some coach whips in

2180
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:35,119
Arizona that lived on his property and he would actually

2181
01:44:35,119 --> 01:44:38,239
feed them, right, so he'd get like frozen throwd mice

2182
01:44:38,359 --> 01:44:40,159
and leave them out for this. So they actually started

2183
01:44:40,199 --> 01:44:43,119
to come up and expect that, you know. So it's like,

2184
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:45,920
you know, you can have the opposite effect too.

2185
01:44:46,319 --> 01:44:48,520
Speaker 1: But for a snake to be able to do that, though,

2186
01:44:49,159 --> 01:44:51,399
it seems to me, I mean I don't know anything

2187
01:44:51,439 --> 01:44:53,760
about snakes or much about them, but that seems like

2188
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:54,760
a sign of intelligence.

2189
01:44:56,439 --> 01:44:59,199
Speaker 2: You know, you have that is a sign of intelligence.

2190
01:44:59,239 --> 01:45:02,439
And there's also a there was a study of a

2191
01:45:02,479 --> 01:45:04,079
black tail rattle. So I can't remember if it was

2192
01:45:04,079 --> 01:45:06,680
New Mexico or Arizona, but they were watching these black

2193
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:09,600
tails and they had to add them tracked or whatever,

2194
01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:13,119
and they're watching them from binoculars, and this one's in

2195
01:45:13,199 --> 01:45:17,000
ambush and you know, waiting for rodent to come by.

2196
01:45:17,199 --> 01:45:19,439
But there's like a piece of grass, you know, that

2197
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:22,359
was in front of it, and it actually like moves

2198
01:45:22,359 --> 01:45:24,920
its body like push that piece of grass down, so

2199
01:45:24,960 --> 01:45:27,640
it can actually have you know, full strike range.

2200
01:45:28,079 --> 01:45:34,359
Speaker 1: So that's you know, the recognition whereas habitat environment, yeah.

2201
01:45:34,079 --> 01:45:38,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how it can modify that environment to better succeed.

2202
01:45:38,760 --> 01:45:42,039
Elaboratory is supposed to be really smart, huh. I think

2203
01:45:42,359 --> 01:45:45,640
some of like king king cobras are very smart, but

2204
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:49,720
it's actually a totally different I guess despite being called cobra,

2205
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:52,399
they're not considered true cobras. And from the discussions I've

2206
01:45:52,399 --> 01:45:57,439
had recently, like stuff like monocle cobras, like actual Naja

2207
01:45:57,600 --> 01:46:01,399
genus is kind of dumb too, really were And I

2208
01:46:01,399 --> 01:46:03,560
think that's why you know that you have those people

2209
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:06,920
that can handle them in a way for show, because

2210
01:46:07,359 --> 01:46:09,279
you know, the cover will focus on whatever is in

2211
01:46:09,319 --> 01:46:11,600
front of it and not realize that the person holding

2212
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:13,560
it is really what it needs to turn around by.

2213
01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:16,479
Speaker 1: It's just one guy that oh my god, man, he's

2214
01:46:16,520 --> 01:46:20,239
so fucking annoying. He's like a million followers and he's

2215
01:46:20,239 --> 01:46:23,520
always doing whoa look at this bro, he's old, like

2216
01:46:23,560 --> 01:46:27,199
these giant cobras and all this ship that. Yeah, man,

2217
01:46:27,319 --> 01:46:32,199
come on, like this is you know, like you're educating.

2218
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:35,680
Yeah yeah, But do you have a would you go to?

2219
01:46:36,119 --> 01:46:38,319
Do you have any interest in, like any other really

2220
01:46:38,439 --> 01:46:43,079
dangerous lapids, Like would you like in Australia or you Asia?

2221
01:46:43,159 --> 01:46:45,880
Would you like if you're over there, if someone was like,

2222
01:46:45,880 --> 01:46:47,520
you can take two weeks off, I'll pay for it,

2223
01:46:47,560 --> 01:46:48,479
send your ass over there.

2224
01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:50,520
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, you know, I'd like to see this stuff,

2225
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:52,439
you know. But yeah, part of the part of the

2226
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:56,279
joy for me is the setting out cover and discovering

2227
01:46:56,319 --> 01:46:58,880
a new population, getting to know you know. So there's

2228
01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:02,199
but there's definitely a lot of fun to be had

2229
01:47:02,239 --> 01:47:04,159
and just going to a new place and seeing new

2230
01:47:04,199 --> 01:47:06,760
things and kind of getting that tour you know.

2231
01:47:06,960 --> 01:47:10,319
Speaker 1: Just what in other words, like the danger wouldn't the

2232
01:47:10,399 --> 01:47:12,600
increased risks wouldn't.

2233
01:47:12,359 --> 01:47:14,199
Speaker 2: That doesn't appeal to me, you know, like just because

2234
01:47:14,199 --> 01:47:16,479
it's dangerous doesn't make it fun.

2235
01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:19,359
Speaker 1: What I'm saying, well, what would discourage you? Proud?

2236
01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:23,920
Speaker 2: Definitely like the putting my hands on it, it's higher stakes. Yeah, yeah,

2237
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:27,640
for sure, you know, and like getting pictures of them. Yeah,

2238
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:33,399
I definitely want to. Yeah, yeah, that definitely doesn't feel

2239
01:47:33,399 --> 01:47:36,560
as uh is up to what I like, how I

2240
01:47:36,640 --> 01:47:37,439
like to enjoy things.

2241
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:41,279
Speaker 1: I saw a fucking tiger snake in alpine Tasmania, like

2242
01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:44,720
what happen to be forty five fifty degrees fahrenheit but

2243
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:49,039
is that like twelve celsius maybe less? And I shrieked

2244
01:47:49,199 --> 01:47:51,520
like a little girl. I was like, fuck this. It

2245
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:53,960
was in the middle of the fucking trail too, you know.

2246
01:47:54,520 --> 01:47:57,359
And I'm looking at athro Taxis, all these cool conifers

2247
01:47:57,399 --> 01:48:00,239
and ship that I'm just obsessed with and have been

2248
01:48:00,239 --> 01:48:02,920
for years, and there's a giant black and they're more

2249
01:48:03,039 --> 01:48:06,079
melanistic at higher elevation because it's been selected for they

2250
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:09,439
hold up there they get more heat from the sun.

2251
01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:12,079
And this thing hurt me. It was just like just

2252
01:48:12,079 --> 01:48:13,840
like took off. It was no threat at all, but

2253
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:16,840
it just didn't Just seeing it and knowing how dangerous

2254
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:19,600
they can be, it was like fuck that. Yeah, way, yeah,

2255
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:22,760
for sure. It's like I'm not trying to do it,

2256
01:48:22,840 --> 01:48:23,159
and I.

2257
01:48:23,079 --> 01:48:25,239
Speaker 2: Think it takes knowing the animals too, and especially you know,

2258
01:48:25,279 --> 01:48:27,600
you grew up in a place that has them, and

2259
01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:29,760
you interact with them, and you kind of get those

2260
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:32,560
slow baby steps to interacting with them. I think you

2261
01:48:32,600 --> 01:48:35,239
can understand how they're gonna act more, right, you know.

2262
01:48:35,319 --> 01:48:38,239
So like we can catch coral snakes here and you

2263
01:48:38,279 --> 01:48:39,920
can grab them by the tail and you give them

2264
01:48:39,920 --> 01:48:42,359
a little shake so they don't have strong muscle tone

2265
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:44,760
like a viper does. So it's really hard for them

2266
01:48:44,800 --> 01:48:46,640
to come back up and bite you if you're grabbing

2267
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:48,560
the tail and you know, shaking it so that it

2268
01:48:48,640 --> 01:48:51,960
can't actually like can't actually do anything, yeah, just kind

2269
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:52,640
of flopping there.

2270
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:52,920
Speaker 1: Right.

2271
01:48:53,920 --> 01:48:56,199
Speaker 2: So I think knowing how to handle those animals makes

2272
01:48:56,239 --> 01:48:58,720
that experience better. But if you know, I'm here, I'm

2273
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:01,359
a foreigner going to some place like that, I can't

2274
01:49:01,359 --> 01:49:02,479
treat it like anything. I know.

2275
01:49:02,600 --> 01:49:06,079
Speaker 1: No, No, There's a dude I follow in Australia who's

2276
01:49:06,079 --> 01:49:10,479
always posting himself handling tiger snakes and he does it total,

2277
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:13,079
you know, professional, on top of his game. You can

2278
01:49:13,119 --> 01:49:14,560
tell you is what he's doing. But I'm still just

2279
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:19,319
like Jesus christ Man. Yeah, wow, those I mean that,

2280
01:49:19,479 --> 01:49:21,680
you know, I always say they supposedly come at you whatever,

2281
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:24,399
I'm always skeptical of that because that's in any ways,

2282
01:49:25,199 --> 01:49:28,239
aggression can be a defense mechanism, you know. Yeah, I

2283
01:49:28,279 --> 01:49:31,039
know from personal experience, you know, tend to be a

2284
01:49:31,079 --> 01:49:35,840
little spiny. But but still I just yeah, they just

2285
01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:38,520
seem a little bit smarter and a little more yeah,

2286
01:49:38,560 --> 01:49:39,279
a little more agro.

2287
01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:42,680
Speaker 2: The lepids, I mean a lot of them over there,

2288
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:45,199
like are described as like a venomous coach whip. Right,

2289
01:49:45,279 --> 01:49:48,159
you know, we've got our coach here. That's terrifying because

2290
01:49:48,159 --> 01:49:49,039
they're so fast.

2291
01:49:49,079 --> 01:49:53,159
Speaker 1: Man. Yeah, yeah, do uh but you never do you ever?

2292
01:49:53,239 --> 01:49:54,760
Are you ever using hooks or anything?

2293
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:59,760
Speaker 2: For I do occasionally because I don't really mess with

2294
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:02,119
high It's a whole lot you know, a lot of hots.

2295
01:50:02,319 --> 01:50:06,720
Yeah they are hot, you know, so I think that

2296
01:50:06,840 --> 01:50:09,680
the most interaction I have. You know, we go see

2297
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:12,119
a lot of cane brakes in Louisiana when we go out,

2298
01:50:13,199 --> 01:50:14,720
and I try not to mess with them one because

2299
01:50:14,720 --> 01:50:18,359
that's another animal that is more sensitive to interactions. Right,

2300
01:50:18,439 --> 01:50:20,640
So if you if you keep disturbing it, they're not

2301
01:50:20,680 --> 01:50:21,199
going to be there.

2302
01:50:21,239 --> 01:50:21,359
Speaker 1: Right.

2303
01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:24,000
Speaker 2: We want to keep seeing them, so we try to

2304
01:50:24,039 --> 01:50:26,239
photograph them in sit you we don't pick them up

2305
01:50:26,640 --> 01:50:29,960
and you know, mess with hooks or tongs or anything

2306
01:50:30,000 --> 01:50:32,560
like that to grab them for pictures. If we can

2307
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:35,039
we photograph emend sit you or if they're already moving

2308
01:50:35,079 --> 01:50:37,159
when we flip them, then we just put this stuff

2309
01:50:37,199 --> 01:50:40,600
back down and just kind of let them be right now.

2310
01:50:40,680 --> 01:50:45,319
Rock rattlesnakes, you know, it's a small rattlesnake. They're you know,

2311
01:50:45,399 --> 01:50:47,680
highly variable and how they look. And I like to

2312
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:49,720
see those and get pictures of them. And you're usually

2313
01:50:49,720 --> 01:50:52,359
finding them at least like in Texas right You're you're

2314
01:50:52,560 --> 01:50:57,279
finding them moving out in habitat on a rock cut

2315
01:50:57,399 --> 01:50:59,880
or whatever at night. You know. So I've got some

2316
01:51:00,199 --> 01:51:03,560
big tweezers that I might use for those we welding

2317
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:05,920
gloves that you can actually grab the snake with.

2318
01:51:06,920 --> 01:51:08,439
Speaker 1: They can't pierce welding gloves.

2319
01:51:08,560 --> 01:51:10,560
Speaker 2: A lot of snacks came the one might be able

2320
01:51:10,640 --> 01:51:13,760
to but little yeah, for the black credit, it's considered safe.

2321
01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:15,479
Speaker 1: You're not going to use it for like an Eastern

2322
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:17,319
diamondback little stuff.

2323
01:51:17,439 --> 01:51:20,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, for little stuff, it's fine, so you can you know,

2324
01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:22,199
you can handle those a little bit more. But it's

2325
01:51:22,239 --> 01:51:25,760
also something that you're gonna get in habitat you're gonna

2326
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:27,960
it's already moving. You're gonna see it for the night,

2327
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:29,880
and then you're probably never gonna see that snake again.

2328
01:51:29,960 --> 01:51:33,399
You know, you're not disturbing its home. In the same way,

2329
01:51:34,239 --> 01:51:35,720
there was a there's a rattlesnake.

2330
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:38,319
Speaker 1: It's what is it? MITCHELLI? I think the speckled Is

2331
01:51:38,359 --> 01:51:38,960
that what it is?

2332
01:51:39,159 --> 01:51:39,479
Speaker 2: Mitchell?

2333
01:51:39,680 --> 01:51:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, that I would always see in the Mojave.

2334
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:47,760
And each population was different depending on what the geology was. Yeah,

2335
01:51:47,800 --> 01:51:50,439
and they were beautifully, incredibly gorgeous snakes. I was on

2336
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:54,600
mushrooms once hiking in the Turtle Mountains in the Mojave

2337
01:51:54,920 --> 01:51:57,399
and stopped right the fuck over one. And it was

2338
01:51:57,439 --> 01:51:59,960
this beautiful purple and pink color because all the rock

2339
01:52:00,119 --> 01:52:03,720
there was rhyolite, which is volcanic like purple rhyolite gravels.

2340
01:52:04,760 --> 01:52:07,560
And it was kind of chilly too. I'm so glad

2341
01:52:07,640 --> 01:52:10,119
the thing didn't bite me because we were fucking miles in.

2342
01:52:10,199 --> 01:52:15,399
That would have sucked. That would have fucking sucked. And yeah,

2343
01:52:15,479 --> 01:52:18,039
we were there after a rain two ecis. It had

2344
01:52:18,079 --> 01:52:20,000
just come out of its little hole. But it was

2345
01:52:20,119 --> 01:52:22,119
just an incredibly gorgeous snake. And then you'll see them

2346
01:52:22,119 --> 01:52:25,039
where they're pink, if it's on pink granite, or orange

2347
01:52:25,039 --> 01:52:26,479
if it's on orange sandstone.

2348
01:52:26,680 --> 01:52:29,159
Speaker 2: Just yeah, there's some blue ones, there's white ones.

2349
01:52:29,239 --> 01:52:31,119
Speaker 1: There's a Have you seen th before? Have you ever?

2350
01:52:31,479 --> 01:52:34,239
Speaker 2: I've never. I've never heurped Arizona. It's one of my

2351
01:52:34,399 --> 01:52:36,000
one of my goals to eventually do that.

2352
01:52:36,239 --> 01:52:39,159
Speaker 1: Like southeastern California. Yeah, but I mean I had herper

2353
01:52:39,199 --> 01:52:41,479
friends out there where they would get they would get

2354
01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:43,920
hell or even just having a snake hook like in

2355
01:52:43,960 --> 01:52:46,119
the truck if they drove through a National park or

2356
01:52:46,760 --> 01:52:48,039
something really strict.

2357
01:52:48,399 --> 01:52:50,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, some places are really strict about that. And I

2358
01:52:50,399 --> 01:52:53,000
think we talked a little bit about this earlier. It

2359
01:52:53,079 --> 01:52:55,479
is like like in Washington, you can't even like be

2360
01:52:55,640 --> 01:52:59,319
directly looking for herbs, right, They don't want you touching

2361
01:52:59,359 --> 01:53:01,199
any of them. I don't want And I think that

2362
01:53:01,239 --> 01:53:03,960
really takes away from you the naturally. It's crazy. That's

2363
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:05,640
one of the great things about herps is there. It's

2364
01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:09,840
a it's really hands on experience with wildlife. You can't

2365
01:53:10,199 --> 01:53:11,439
go catch a dear.

2366
01:53:11,399 --> 01:53:14,199
Speaker 1: No reptiles, amphibians you're allowed to touch.

2367
01:53:14,239 --> 01:53:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, why is it like that?

2368
01:53:16,680 --> 01:53:16,880
Speaker 1: You know?

2369
01:53:17,640 --> 01:53:22,520
Speaker 2: I mean, you know why is Portland the way you know, So.

2370
01:53:22,720 --> 01:53:26,239
Speaker 1: That's another version of help for me. I like thinking

2371
01:53:26,279 --> 01:53:30,119
of like terrible experiences I could have because I'm like that,

2372
01:53:30,199 --> 01:53:33,520
you know, I got my childhood. But I think of

2373
01:53:33,600 --> 01:53:35,279
like if I was like if I got the hell

2374
01:53:35,279 --> 01:53:37,800
and they're like you have to live in Portland and

2375
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:42,760
like a communal house in Portland for eternity, that would

2376
01:53:42,760 --> 01:53:43,359
be I would be.

2377
01:53:43,319 --> 01:53:47,560
Speaker 3: So fucking bombed and polyle Yeah, it's just like it's

2378
01:53:47,600 --> 01:53:50,520
going to be being shamed and talked down to for

2379
01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:52,119
the rest of my life by some of the most

2380
01:53:52,199 --> 01:53:53,680
insufferable people in the world.

2381
01:53:55,520 --> 01:53:57,840
Speaker 1: But anyway, so what are some of the what are

2382
01:53:57,880 --> 01:54:00,199
some of the things? Because I know you have a

2383
01:54:00,680 --> 01:54:04,640
dreaded fear of bees, as do I. Of the feral bees,

2384
01:54:04,840 --> 01:54:06,920
they're fucking and they're all Africanized on there. I have

2385
01:54:06,920 --> 01:54:09,479
a friend who's a beekeeper, Like how often you get

2386
01:54:09,520 --> 01:54:11,840
Africanized bees. She's like, they're all Africanized down there, every

2387
01:54:11,840 --> 01:54:14,000
single one of them. Yeah, there's none that are just

2388
01:54:14,079 --> 01:54:18,119
like the docile Northern They're all that fucking hybrid that

2389
01:54:18,159 --> 01:54:18,520
was made.

2390
01:54:19,199 --> 01:54:21,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's if it's even remotely hot out they

2391
01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:22,319
come and find you from a.

2392
01:54:22,479 --> 01:54:23,720
Speaker 1: They're in West Texas too.

2393
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:23,960
Speaker 2: Man.

2394
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:26,720
Speaker 1: It's crazy. You'll be sixty feet from a fucking hole

2395
01:54:27,000 --> 01:54:29,560
in a cliff where these things are. You know, you

2396
01:54:29,560 --> 01:54:31,239
won't even be able to hear the buzzing yet, and

2397
01:54:31,239 --> 01:54:32,760
all of a sudden you're getting attacked and then they

2398
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:35,680
mark you with the pheromone and then you're, yeah, what

2399
01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:37,359
experiences have you had with those?

2400
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:40,720
Speaker 2: So I had my first experience with this is actually

2401
01:54:40,760 --> 01:54:43,720
just south of Houston, near Freeport on one of the islands.

2402
01:54:43,880 --> 01:54:46,840
And I hadn't been hurting a whole lot a lot

2403
01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:49,520
of time at that point, but I was going and

2404
01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:54,079
looking for rattlesnakes and king snakes under hurricane debris and

2405
01:54:54,159 --> 01:54:57,359
I came across this. It's like corner to a roof

2406
01:54:57,399 --> 01:55:00,640
of a house, laying in the scrub there. So I

2407
01:55:00,680 --> 01:55:04,199
flipped it over, so it was just pieces of it,

2408
01:55:04,319 --> 01:55:06,279
you know, So I don't know where it came from,

2409
01:55:06,319 --> 01:55:08,600
but it's just like I knew it was like these shingles.

2410
01:55:08,600 --> 01:55:11,279
It was the corner to a roof bread. So I

2411
01:55:11,319 --> 01:55:14,399
flip it over and I see this writhing mass under it.

2412
01:55:14,439 --> 01:55:17,279
I'm like, oh shit, beat, So I put it back down,

2413
01:55:17,800 --> 01:55:20,640
and you know, I had flipped wasps at this point,

2414
01:55:21,079 --> 01:55:24,439
and I ran off probably fifteen yards or so, you know,

2415
01:55:24,479 --> 01:55:28,920
maybe maybe fifteen feet, and I thought, okay, let me

2416
01:55:28,960 --> 01:55:30,680
look for other stuff because I'd flipped wasps. And I

2417
01:55:30,760 --> 01:55:32,359
put this stuff back down and I just never get

2418
01:55:32,399 --> 01:55:36,479
bothered by yeah, And I stopped, and I'm looking around

2419
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:38,159
for the next piece of cover to flip. And it

2420
01:55:38,199 --> 01:55:40,199
felt like all of a sudden, like I got lit

2421
01:55:40,239 --> 01:55:44,439
on fire, and I had bees swarming all over me.

2422
01:55:44,600 --> 01:55:47,079
And here I am one hundred yards away from my

2423
01:55:47,199 --> 01:55:50,239
car in this tall scrub with kyotie bush and all

2424
01:55:50,239 --> 01:55:53,479
this stuff around me, and I have to run all

2425
01:55:53,560 --> 01:55:55,199
the way back to my car.

2426
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:58,159
Speaker 1: And they're stinging, and they're stinging the.

2427
01:55:57,920 --> 01:56:00,560
Speaker 2: Fuck out of me, and you know, so here I am,

2428
01:56:00,720 --> 01:56:02,840
you know, waving my arms. I ended up knocking my

2429
01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:06,439
glasses off. I lose my snake hook that I had,

2430
01:56:07,159 --> 01:56:12,119
and I fell two times running through there, tripping over

2431
01:56:12,199 --> 01:56:14,600
stuff trying to get away. And eventually, you know, I

2432
01:56:14,640 --> 01:56:16,840
got fairly close to the road and it's really thick,

2433
01:56:16,880 --> 01:56:19,439
and I had to basically walk, you know, while I'm

2434
01:56:19,439 --> 01:56:22,279
getting stunk, and eventually get in the car and I've

2435
01:56:22,279 --> 01:56:24,279
got probably twenty bees in there in the car with

2436
01:56:24,319 --> 01:56:28,319
me smacking them against the windows and stuff. It was

2437
01:56:29,079 --> 01:56:30,680
it was one of it was the first time in

2438
01:56:30,760 --> 01:56:34,199
my life that I actually thought I might die from this,

2439
01:56:34,399 --> 01:56:36,760
you know, I really thought that that might be it

2440
01:56:37,319 --> 01:56:41,319
and ended up getting away and uh, and of course,

2441
01:56:41,399 --> 01:56:42,520
you know, being me, I kept.

2442
01:56:42,399 --> 01:56:44,000
Speaker 1: Trying, did you get the bees that world? Just drive

2443
01:56:44,039 --> 01:56:44,960
fast with the windows down?

2444
01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:47,640
Speaker 2: No, I mean I had the bees in there, and

2445
01:56:47,680 --> 01:56:49,439
I basically smacked him, you know, because I was too

2446
01:56:49,439 --> 01:56:51,840
exhausted at that point, basically smacked him in the car

2447
01:56:52,359 --> 01:56:57,279
was fucking hot and just yeah, and uh, I ended

2448
01:56:57,359 --> 01:57:00,800
up trying to herp after that, and with such a

2449
01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:04,399
bad headache and just feeling bad overall that I didn't

2450
01:57:04,479 --> 01:57:05,079
last very long.

2451
01:57:05,119 --> 01:57:05,800
Speaker 1: How many drugs?

2452
01:57:06,680 --> 01:57:08,560
Speaker 2: So we counted them when I got home, and it

2453
01:57:08,600 --> 01:57:11,199
was over one hundred and twenty stings that we could find.

2454
01:57:11,279 --> 01:57:13,239
And that's like not because you can't really see them

2455
01:57:13,279 --> 01:57:15,279
on your head, but I had them all over in

2456
01:57:15,359 --> 01:57:18,560
my hair and my head. I mean they were lighting.

2457
01:57:18,680 --> 01:57:21,199
Speaker 1: They could they sting you through your shirt too? Yeah. Yeah,

2458
01:57:21,239 --> 01:57:23,199
So there's nothing I mean, unless you have like a

2459
01:57:23,239 --> 01:57:24,199
sweatshirt in your place.

2460
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:27,319
Speaker 2: The only thing that you can do is go get

2461
01:57:27,359 --> 01:57:31,399
into like a building, a car somewhere that they can't

2462
01:57:31,439 --> 01:57:31,840
get to you.

2463
01:57:32,119 --> 01:57:33,760
Speaker 1: How far when you got to your car? How far

2464
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:34,760
was that from where?

2465
01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:36,640
Speaker 2: So it was probably about one hundred, one hundred and

2466
01:57:36,640 --> 01:57:40,520
fifty yards that I had to run through, Jesus, And

2467
01:57:40,520 --> 01:57:42,960
that was so that was my first experience with them,

2468
01:57:43,119 --> 01:57:46,199
and ever since then, I've been you know, high alert.

2469
01:57:46,399 --> 01:57:47,039
Speaker 1: But you were fine.

2470
01:57:47,039 --> 01:57:48,439
Speaker 2: You didn't go to the hospital. I didn't go to

2471
01:57:48,520 --> 01:57:51,039
the hospital. I had a fever that night. I didn't

2472
01:57:51,039 --> 01:57:53,279
sleep very well. I was really sore the next day.

2473
01:57:53,800 --> 01:57:56,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, of what one hundred low grade high grade.

2474
01:57:56,279 --> 01:57:59,119
Speaker 2: It's probably about ninety nine, you know point but there

2475
01:57:59,439 --> 01:58:02,840
it was just serious inflammation though, yes, yeah, I mean

2476
01:58:02,920 --> 01:58:05,039
I was red all over. I was hot. I didn't

2477
01:58:05,159 --> 01:58:09,319
you know, I uh, basically into the next day, you know,

2478
01:58:09,479 --> 01:58:12,680
and then uh slowly you know, dissipated, and I was

2479
01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:14,359
pretty sore for a couple of days after that.

2480
01:58:14,439 --> 01:58:16,520
Speaker 1: Things, man, Jesus, it.

2481
01:58:16,439 --> 01:58:18,199
Speaker 2: Was it was pretty rough.

2482
01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:22,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had I had a friend get attacked and

2483
01:58:22,159 --> 01:58:24,439
he just laid down, I think because he couldn't. He

2484
01:58:24,520 --> 01:58:26,279
just gave up. He's like, this is it, I'm gonna die.

2485
01:58:26,399 --> 01:58:29,039
But and he came out of it. I forget what happened.

2486
01:58:29,079 --> 01:58:32,680
I think he maybe eventually walked out, he walked aways

2487
01:58:32,680 --> 01:58:34,439
away from the nest, but he walked up the same thing.

2488
01:58:34,439 --> 01:58:37,039
There was like a down tree. Yeah, and just yeah,

2489
01:58:37,159 --> 01:58:39,439
if you got to like start running the minute then

2490
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:42,880
you see him and fucking just get away, that's that

2491
01:58:42,920 --> 01:58:45,560
would be a horrible way to go to water.

2492
01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:48,199
Speaker 2: Maybe would work, I guess, but I've heard that they'll

2493
01:58:48,239 --> 01:58:49,720
basically stay and wait for you to come.

2494
01:58:49,640 --> 01:58:52,720
Speaker 1: Out of the water. Jesus Christ fucking sat I've never

2495
01:58:52,760 --> 01:58:54,039
tried it myself.

2496
01:58:54,279 --> 01:58:57,159
Speaker 2: I'm pretty be aware at this point. You know. So

2497
01:58:57,520 --> 01:58:59,920
whenever we we don't do this as much, but right,

2498
01:59:00,079 --> 01:59:01,680
you know, part of what we used to do is

2499
01:59:01,880 --> 01:59:04,920
look on Google Maps for you know, old barns and

2500
01:59:04,920 --> 01:59:07,560
stuff that this clear tint missing and go try to

2501
01:59:07,600 --> 01:59:11,600
find herbs around there. Right, So you go, and a

2502
01:59:11,600 --> 01:59:14,720
lot of these abandoned buildings will have bees in them.

2503
01:59:15,119 --> 01:59:18,000
You know, there's almost it's almost a surety that if

2504
01:59:18,000 --> 01:59:21,039
you've got to abandoned, falling apart building that there's bees

2505
01:59:21,159 --> 01:59:25,159
somewhere in it down here at least. And you know,

2506
01:59:25,279 --> 01:59:27,439
so we have to just kind of be conscientious of

2507
01:59:27,520 --> 01:59:29,359
that and look for it. Basically everywhere we can.

2508
01:59:30,079 --> 01:59:31,840
Speaker 1: Can you normally hear the buzzing.

2509
01:59:32,079 --> 01:59:34,479
Speaker 2: If you get close. Yeah, But basically what we're doing

2510
01:59:34,560 --> 01:59:36,359
is looking. You know, you get like a big three

2511
01:59:36,479 --> 01:59:38,600
D pile of junk, you know, and we're looking to

2512
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:40,920
see the bees kind of popping out. You know, you'll

2513
01:59:40,960 --> 01:59:43,039
see the few of them buzzing, kind of coming in

2514
01:59:43,079 --> 01:59:46,439
and out, you know. Looking you know, you see like

2515
01:59:46,479 --> 01:59:48,319
a hole in the side of a building, you know,

2516
01:59:48,399 --> 01:59:50,119
you obviously don't want to walk right next to it

2517
01:59:50,159 --> 01:59:51,920
because they're going to be coming out.

2518
01:59:51,960 --> 01:59:54,199
Speaker 1: They're in the desert too, was in a cliff. I

2519
01:59:54,279 --> 01:59:57,720
was near like a rock outcropping in West Texas, and

2520
01:59:57,760 --> 02:00:00,159
they were there and they were just they started thing

2521
02:00:00,199 --> 02:00:02,760
in us. And when lewis alone, yeah, I think I

2522
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:04,680
got like five stings. It wasn't that bad, but it

2523
02:00:04,800 --> 02:00:06,399
sucked and we had to leave. We're like one hundred

2524
02:00:06,439 --> 02:00:09,760
feet from the nest. Yeah, it's just, yeah, it sucks.

2525
02:00:09,760 --> 02:00:13,640
And we had a friend who's pretty old and couldn't

2526
02:00:13,680 --> 02:00:15,159
walk that well, and so we're having to like help

2527
02:00:15,199 --> 02:00:17,720
him get down and it's all this crumbling talus and shit.

2528
02:00:17,760 --> 02:00:20,920
It was so dangerous. It sucks. And I've seen him

2529
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:23,960
in the Mohave Desert too, but they weren't that aggressive.

2530
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:26,680
There was actually like honey leaking out of the rock

2531
02:00:26,680 --> 02:00:30,119
shealting they were in there. But yeah, how many times

2532
02:00:30,199 --> 02:00:32,279
do you encounter them and they'll come at you if

2533
02:00:32,279 --> 02:00:33,439
you don't even disturb the.

2534
02:00:33,399 --> 02:00:36,319
Speaker 2: Nest, right, yeah, if you're exactly so obviously you don't

2535
02:00:36,319 --> 02:00:39,039
want to flip a nest. But yeah, being just too

2536
02:00:39,079 --> 02:00:42,079
close to them can can set them off. And it

2537
02:00:42,199 --> 02:00:45,119
feels like, you know that I've got some kind of permanent,

2538
02:00:45,439 --> 02:00:47,199
you know, marker on me, because if I'm out with

2539
02:00:47,239 --> 02:00:49,359
a group of people, I'm almost the first and sometimes

2540
02:00:49,399 --> 02:00:51,560
the only person stung by them.

2541
02:00:52,079 --> 02:00:52,119
Speaker 1: Es.

2542
02:00:53,079 --> 02:00:56,880
Speaker 2: So I've had several experiences now, so I've had a

2543
02:00:56,880 --> 02:01:00,960
couple of Mustang Island. One of them, I was there

2544
02:01:01,000 --> 02:01:03,720
with a friend and I was the only person stung.

2545
02:01:03,920 --> 02:01:06,000
You know, we were flipping through some boards and stuff

2546
02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:08,800
and didn't see them, and I go running off because

2547
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:11,279
I got the first few stings, and she's standing there

2548
02:01:11,359 --> 02:01:14,439
like what are you running for? You know, And I

2549
02:01:14,479 --> 02:01:16,960
get back to the car and I got probably maybe

2550
02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:22,039
ten stings from that, and then yeah, so evil, Yeah,

2551
02:01:22,279 --> 02:01:24,319
getting the whole high back to you if you let him.

2552
02:01:25,119 --> 02:01:27,479
Another time also, I mustang. I was with a group

2553
02:01:27,479 --> 02:01:30,239
of friends and we'd gone we basically exhausted all of

2554
02:01:30,239 --> 02:01:32,760
our flip there, and we went over that. I said, well,

2555
02:01:32,800 --> 02:01:35,279
I got this other place I've never been to. It's

2556
02:01:35,399 --> 02:01:38,600
RB Park. There's some junk in the dunes. Maybe there's

2557
02:01:38,600 --> 02:01:40,560
something there worth flipping, but it just gives me the

2558
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:44,079
impression that there's probably bees. We get over there, we

2559
02:01:44,119 --> 02:01:46,399
look around at night. I noticed my buddy hadn't flipped

2560
02:01:46,439 --> 02:01:50,159
this big black like one of those it's like a

2561
02:01:50,159 --> 02:01:53,479
big black tube right two feet across. I guess they

2562
02:01:53,479 --> 02:01:56,720
put him. It's like a culvert kind of thing. And

2563
02:01:56,760 --> 02:01:58,359
I noticed he didn't pick that up. And I go

2564
02:01:58,399 --> 02:02:01,279
and I lift it and and I get buzzed, and

2565
02:02:01,319 --> 02:02:03,279
I'm like, oh fuck, you know, so I go galloping

2566
02:02:03,359 --> 02:02:05,800
from you see where was I didn't even see the nest,

2567
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:08,119
but I got buzzed. So at that point I'm like

2568
02:02:08,279 --> 02:02:12,520
skittish of them, So I go zipping across. Yeah you

2569
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:14,920
hear it yet, And the guy that was next to

2570
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:17,760
me ended up getting attacked by a lot of them,

2571
02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:21,439
and they came after him, and we basically were running

2572
02:02:21,479 --> 02:02:23,720
around the car because he was trying to fumbling for

2573
02:02:23,760 --> 02:02:25,680
his keys and we're trying to get in the car,

2574
02:02:26,279 --> 02:02:29,039
and our other friend went running through the RV park

2575
02:02:29,319 --> 02:02:33,399
and we're basically I'm smacking them off of Matt's back

2576
02:02:33,680 --> 02:02:36,079
and he's fumbling for the keys, trying to get in

2577
02:02:36,119 --> 02:02:38,640
the car, and eventually we got in and probably had

2578
02:02:38,680 --> 02:02:39,960
fifteen stings each.

2579
02:02:40,039 --> 02:02:40,239
Speaker 1: You know.

2580
02:02:40,359 --> 02:02:43,119
Speaker 2: It wasn't terrible, but one of the things that they

2581
02:02:43,159 --> 02:02:46,439
just come after you and they don't stop. So that's

2582
02:02:47,359 --> 02:02:49,800
those times, and most of the time since then, I've

2583
02:02:49,800 --> 02:02:52,039
found the bees before they found me. But we were

2584
02:02:52,039 --> 02:02:54,680
actually flipping a few weeks ago and it seems like

2585
02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:57,439
they've kind of moved back into some places and I

2586
02:02:57,479 --> 02:03:00,119
got lit up after we'd finished flipping a stack.

2587
02:03:00,079 --> 02:03:01,840
Speaker 1: Places that you were familiar with.

2588
02:03:02,000 --> 02:03:04,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they've kind of started to move in

2589
02:03:04,960 --> 02:03:09,920
and I got I think three stings from this latest one,

2590
02:03:10,039 --> 02:03:11,800
you know, but I got hit with the first one.

2591
02:03:11,840 --> 02:03:12,920
I'm like, I'm out here.

2592
02:03:12,800 --> 02:03:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I remember with you once you want a

2593
02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:21,680
year or two ago and I bees and I'm like, what, yeah, God,

2594
02:03:21,720 --> 02:03:25,039
they're just yeah, what what about ticks? How often you

2595
02:03:25,079 --> 02:03:25,560
get tics?

2596
02:03:25,600 --> 02:03:28,239
Speaker 2: What other like hazards that the Tic series that's just

2597
02:03:28,279 --> 02:03:30,359
part of the That's what I was run of the mill, right,

2598
02:03:30,399 --> 02:03:33,119
you know, you watch them. I mean, I haven't got

2599
02:03:33,119 --> 02:03:36,079
any tick boorn illnesses yet, luckily knock on wood like

2600
02:03:36,119 --> 02:03:40,239
the Alpha girl or yeah, that I'd be really worried about,

2601
02:03:40,359 --> 02:03:42,760
you know, because I you know, I know, we've talked

2602
02:03:42,800 --> 02:03:44,239
a little bit about the red meat, you know, and

2603
02:03:44,319 --> 02:03:47,319
I would obviously probably should cut it out a little bit,

2604
02:03:47,359 --> 02:03:48,760
but I don't want to be forced to, you know,

2605
02:03:49,520 --> 02:03:50,600
it's just for me.

2606
02:03:50,640 --> 02:03:53,279
Speaker 1: It's just like you know, the Italians and colon cancer

2607
02:03:53,439 --> 02:03:53,920
to ask.

2608
02:03:54,159 --> 02:03:54,399
Speaker 2: You know.

2609
02:03:55,319 --> 02:03:58,119
Speaker 1: But uh but yeah, man, that's uh yeah. My friend

2610
02:03:58,159 --> 02:04:00,680
got that. He can't he can't. He get like severe

2611
02:04:00,720 --> 02:04:03,159
allergic reactions and his stomach as all of said. You

2612
02:04:03,159 --> 02:04:04,800
didn't even know he had it. He got tested. He

2613
02:04:04,840 --> 02:04:09,960
was like, why am I having these reactions? Yeah, man,

2614
02:04:10,000 --> 02:04:13,239
I don't. I guess. I think the other thing to

2615
02:04:13,279 --> 02:04:16,640
think about, too, is do you feel like the habitat

2616
02:04:16,680 --> 02:04:19,039
being gone one day, like his land use changes, because

2617
02:04:19,039 --> 02:04:21,840
I it doesn't seem like the sprawl's ever gonna stop,

2618
02:04:23,880 --> 02:04:24,079
you know.

2619
02:04:24,159 --> 02:04:25,920
Speaker 2: I think it depends on where you are, you know,

2620
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:29,159
And one of the benefits to where we've set up

2621
02:04:29,159 --> 02:04:31,640
a lot of this stuff where we have. I don't

2622
02:04:31,720 --> 02:04:35,600
think that these places in particular are going to get developed.

2623
02:04:36,159 --> 02:04:39,319
They're too far, it's too far out. It's also not

2624
02:04:39,920 --> 02:04:41,720
good for farming, you know. You see it's got a

2625
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:45,359
lot of agriculture land around it. But they haven't, you know,

2626
02:04:45,520 --> 02:04:50,840
messed with this habitat. So you know, in places around

2627
02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:54,800
Houston though that I used to go to, I can't

2628
02:04:54,840 --> 02:04:58,039
go there, go there anymore one because it's just been bulldozed.

2629
02:04:58,119 --> 02:05:02,199
It's been absolutely completely just. But that's the urban sprawl

2630
02:05:02,880 --> 02:05:06,520
that is coming out, and it's the constant new developments.

2631
02:05:06,560 --> 02:05:09,119
We got to build more tract houses, we got to

2632
02:05:09,119 --> 02:05:11,000
build more apartments. We got to do this. You know,

2633
02:05:11,039 --> 02:05:13,880
I had this great place, and I guess I can

2634
02:05:13,960 --> 02:05:16,079
tell exactly where it was. It was off a highway

2635
02:05:16,079 --> 02:05:19,399
to eighty eight and Airport roads south of Houston, and

2636
02:05:19,439 --> 02:05:21,560
it was this patch of prairie. It's a wonderful little

2637
02:05:21,560 --> 02:05:24,399
patch of prairie. And I could go there and there

2638
02:05:24,439 --> 02:05:26,319
was they used to have cattle out there and some

2639
02:05:26,439 --> 02:05:28,720
kind of barn, so there was some tin, there were

2640
02:05:28,760 --> 02:05:32,640
some boards out there, and it's kind of a ghetto area.

2641
02:05:33,439 --> 02:05:36,119
But I used to go find caligaster, so prairie king snakes,

2642
02:05:36,119 --> 02:05:39,800
so Lamberpeltus caligaster was very numerous there. I was real

2643
02:05:39,880 --> 02:05:42,479
close to where I lived. I could go there. It

2644
02:05:42,560 --> 02:05:44,960
was basically a ten minute drive. I could pop over

2645
02:05:45,000 --> 02:05:48,279
there in the spring and see prairie king snakes and

2646
02:05:48,399 --> 02:05:54,000
I loved it. And eventually they bulldozed, you know. I

2647
02:05:54,039 --> 02:05:55,880
went by there one day in the spring and I

2648
02:05:55,920 --> 02:05:58,399
was ready to go flip and they had bulldozers out

2649
02:05:58,439 --> 02:06:01,079
there and they were flattening everything. You know. I guess

2650
02:06:01,119 --> 02:06:04,119
the person who owned it ended up selling it and

2651
02:06:04,159 --> 02:06:07,720
selling it to land developers, and now there's apartments on

2652
02:06:07,800 --> 02:06:11,239
top of it, you know. And it's just like that's

2653
02:06:11,520 --> 02:06:15,199
the reality of her being anywhere close to a city.

2654
02:06:14,960 --> 02:06:18,560
Speaker 1: You know, like a sinking feeling.

2655
02:06:18,760 --> 02:06:21,119
Speaker 2: It was, you know, a sense of loss, you know,

2656
02:06:21,159 --> 02:06:24,159
because I had a lot of great times seeing animals there.

2657
02:06:24,159 --> 02:06:28,359
But it's like I know that whatever animals were there

2658
02:06:29,279 --> 02:06:33,640
were bulldozed over, you know, that was flattened. They suffocated

2659
02:06:33,760 --> 02:06:38,520
and died underground, or you know, got got turned up

2660
02:06:38,560 --> 02:06:41,720
by the bulldozers right and crushed and torn to shreds.

2661
02:06:42,399 --> 02:06:44,600
You know. So it sucks, you know, but it's also

2662
02:06:44,600 --> 02:06:50,720
it's it feels inevitable, it feels unstoppable, especially in those places,

2663
02:06:50,760 --> 02:06:53,840
because you can have that pocket of habitat and somebody

2664
02:06:54,000 --> 02:06:57,720
that's got more money and less morals is going to

2665
02:06:57,960 --> 02:07:01,680
take that and use it. They see dollar signs. They

2666
02:07:01,720 --> 02:07:05,520
see that as well, we have this population growing and

2667
02:07:05,560 --> 02:07:09,039
here I can put cheap homes or apartments and I

2668
02:07:09,039 --> 02:07:11,079
can make money off of this, you know, And they don't.

2669
02:07:11,720 --> 02:07:16,119
They never look at the ecological benefit of that. Because

2670
02:07:16,119 --> 02:07:19,600
the joy that it brought me is priceless. But that's

2671
02:07:19,680 --> 02:07:21,279
not something that everybody shared.

2672
02:07:21,359 --> 02:07:23,760
Speaker 1: It sales me with the hate. I think it's safe

2673
02:07:23,800 --> 02:07:26,039
to say it's a hate. It's not just like, oh well,

2674
02:07:26,279 --> 02:07:28,520
I just stopped that mobile. It's like, no, I fucking

2675
02:07:28,600 --> 02:07:30,520
hate I hate it. I hate you. I hate not

2676
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:33,880
you personally. Maybe people can change, but like your values

2677
02:07:34,279 --> 02:07:37,239
are poisoned their garbage. It's not just we're different, it's

2678
02:07:37,439 --> 02:07:41,279
your values, our garbage. You don't value the living world

2679
02:07:41,359 --> 02:07:45,239
that we came from. Like you know, it's I hate it.

2680
02:07:45,319 --> 02:07:47,560
I fucking hate that. I would hate a lot of

2681
02:07:47,640 --> 02:07:51,039
that shit even if it wasn't destroying things I love.

2682
02:07:51,159 --> 02:07:53,399
But I just don't. But I also know it's not

2683
02:07:53,800 --> 02:07:58,920
gonna last. It's so ephemeral. It can't last. There's no way, man,

2684
02:07:59,279 --> 02:08:01,760
you know, you can't. Just tumors don't last. They kill

2685
02:08:01,760 --> 02:08:06,119
their holes eventually. Yeah, it just sucks all the everything

2686
02:08:06,159 --> 02:08:08,720
that happens, all the byproducts, you know, like the people

2687
02:08:08,760 --> 02:08:10,920
who don't do that, who are going to suffer, and

2688
02:08:11,920 --> 02:08:14,039
all the life forms that are going to be extirpated.

2689
02:08:15,479 --> 02:08:17,000
And do you what do you think is probably the

2690
02:08:17,159 --> 02:08:20,279
rarest one of the rarest herbs in Texas?

2691
02:08:21,880 --> 02:08:23,800
Speaker 2: I think if they still exist, it would be the

2692
02:08:23,880 --> 02:08:29,079
Louisiana pine snake. They have a couple of strongholds in

2693
02:08:29,319 --> 02:08:35,640
Louisiana and they've done really a great reintroduction program in

2694
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:40,600
a particular area I won't mention, but they have introduced

2695
02:08:40,680 --> 02:08:43,600
them and there is now a breeding population there, so

2696
02:08:43,680 --> 02:08:47,239
they've found they've gotten they Basically what they do is

2697
02:08:47,279 --> 02:08:50,119
they have like a camera trap. Basically it's kind of

2698
02:08:50,159 --> 02:08:52,439
like a drift fence that forces animals to go a

2699
02:08:52,520 --> 02:08:55,319
certain way past a camera and they photographed to new

2700
02:08:55,439 --> 02:08:58,720
individuals so they know that it's a breeding population now.

2701
02:08:59,279 --> 02:09:04,119
So in in Louisiana they definitely have some still and

2702
02:09:04,199 --> 02:09:08,920
hopefully well well maintain, but in Texas with the land

2703
02:09:08,960 --> 02:09:12,119
does not managed properly for them, and they haven't been

2704
02:09:12,159 --> 02:09:16,359
seen in many years Jesus even you know. So, And

2705
02:09:16,439 --> 02:09:19,520
I don't know if it's a detection problem or if

2706
02:09:19,600 --> 02:09:22,279
it's you know, really the population's just not there. But

2707
02:09:23,279 --> 02:09:25,239
they stopped getting him in traps, I want to say,

2708
02:09:25,279 --> 02:09:29,279
in the like, uh like two thousands or maybe early

2709
02:09:29,399 --> 02:09:30,000
twenty tens.

2710
02:09:30,800 --> 02:09:32,520
Speaker 1: Oh wow, So that's it's.

2711
02:09:32,399 --> 02:09:36,880
Speaker 2: Been a while, probably extricated, probably probably probably are I

2712
02:09:37,000 --> 02:09:38,960
remain hopeful that want to show up, But I mean,

2713
02:09:39,039 --> 02:09:39,800
nobody's seen one.

2714
02:09:39,920 --> 02:09:42,479
Speaker 1: Like so many things, man. Yeah. And then the yeah,

2715
02:09:42,520 --> 02:09:44,920
the shifting baselines thing of just kids growing up and

2716
02:09:45,000 --> 02:09:48,039
not being able to see this stuff. Yeah, and just

2717
02:09:48,119 --> 02:09:50,399
being stuck on video games and TikTok and shit, that's

2718
02:09:50,520 --> 02:09:51,560
so sad.

2719
02:09:52,680 --> 02:09:55,239
Speaker 2: Well, that's why we want more people to go hurt, right.

2720
02:09:55,199 --> 02:09:57,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And how I was gonna say, that's why you

2721
02:09:58,039 --> 02:09:59,880
the best thing you can do is create a culture.

2722
02:10:00,079 --> 02:10:03,319
It revolves around this stuff, you know that holds it.

2723
02:10:03,560 --> 02:10:06,000
It holds like a reverence and a respect for it.

2724
02:10:06,039 --> 02:10:08,920
And yeah, it's fun as hell, you know, and it

2725
02:10:09,039 --> 02:10:14,520
is an antidote. But I wanted to ask to lastly,

2726
02:10:14,680 --> 02:10:17,119
like mass of Saga. There's a couple like Mass of Sagas.

2727
02:10:17,119 --> 02:10:18,920
I've never seen those. I'd love to do you get those.

2728
02:10:20,199 --> 02:10:21,760
Speaker 2: We do get them down here.

2729
02:10:21,920 --> 02:10:22,199
Speaker 1: I know.

2730
02:10:24,640 --> 02:10:26,520
Speaker 2: One of the places that we drove to when you

2731
02:10:26,760 --> 02:10:30,880
when you're dropping off CC, we went through a Paturbally

2732
02:10:30,960 --> 02:10:34,800
Sandy habitat that does have them. I've not seen when

2733
02:10:34,800 --> 02:10:37,439
they're saur shed skin under some of the tin that

2734
02:10:37,479 --> 02:10:38,199
I've got out there.

2735
02:10:39,239 --> 02:10:40,079
Speaker 1: Mass Saga ship.

2736
02:10:40,199 --> 02:10:42,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, based on the patterning on the head, because they

2737
02:10:42,760 --> 02:10:46,760
have a very distinct pattern on the head. We have

2738
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:50,279
seen them out out for the West in jim Hogg County,

2739
02:10:50,720 --> 02:10:53,119
you know where it's real sandy. Yeah. But you know

2740
02:10:53,239 --> 02:10:56,720
they seem you know, sisters in general, seems like a

2741
02:10:56,800 --> 02:11:01,560
very sensitive genus and even like pigmies in Texas, I

2742
02:11:01,640 --> 02:11:03,920
feel like, you know, they used to I know, they

2743
02:11:04,039 --> 02:11:08,800
used to have a lot beer range and occupied a

2744
02:11:08,840 --> 02:11:10,880
lot of areas that they don't anymore. And one of

2745
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:14,199
the things that I've always thought that has imperiled them

2746
02:11:14,319 --> 02:11:17,039
is wild hogs because it's a it's a very terrestrial

2747
02:11:17,279 --> 02:11:21,279
animal that doesn't if you're like a wild boar or

2748
02:11:21,399 --> 02:11:24,560
invasive bore, it doesn't have a bad bite, right, and

2749
02:11:24,680 --> 02:11:28,159
bores come through and root up habitat and basically eat

2750
02:11:28,359 --> 02:11:32,560
everything that's on the surface. So, you know, I had

2751
02:11:32,600 --> 02:11:35,399
a place in northeast Texas that I could go and

2752
02:11:36,079 --> 02:11:41,680
not easily find pigmy rattlesnakes, but I would encounter them occasionally,

2753
02:11:42,359 --> 02:11:45,720
and after seeing some wild hog come through, and you know,

2754
02:11:45,880 --> 02:11:48,239
you know, it's the evidence that their destruction is pretty obvious.

2755
02:11:48,279 --> 02:11:51,800
I haven't seen a pigmy there since, so I feel

2756
02:11:51,840 --> 02:11:54,439
like it's a it's something that's implicated in their decline,

2757
02:11:55,880 --> 02:11:58,159
and it's just it's a species that really I think

2758
02:11:58,279 --> 02:12:01,119
is very sensitive, but they're definitely and you know, places

2759
02:12:01,199 --> 02:12:04,039
at the King Ranch, you know in Kennedy County has

2760
02:12:04,119 --> 02:12:06,680
a lot of has a lot of habitat, and I

2761
02:12:06,800 --> 02:12:10,560
know from secondhand accounts of people that work on like

2762
02:12:10,640 --> 02:12:12,840
the wind turbines and stuff out there, they'll actually see

2763
02:12:12,880 --> 02:12:15,119
them crossing the road. So it's like it's not that

2764
02:12:15,199 --> 02:12:18,880
there's not populations that are still doing well, it's just

2765
02:12:19,000 --> 02:12:20,640
the access to those populations.

2766
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:23,800
Speaker 1: Sterial hogs are so bad. We just got some a

2767
02:12:23,960 --> 02:12:28,039
thorn scrub and and in six months they've fucked up

2768
02:12:28,159 --> 02:12:30,920
so much, Like on on one end of the property.

2769
02:12:31,800 --> 02:12:32,399
It's crazy.

2770
02:12:32,479 --> 02:12:32,680
Speaker 2: I was.

2771
02:12:32,960 --> 02:12:34,720
Speaker 1: I was reached out to a friend. He's like, oh, yeah,

2772
02:12:34,720 --> 02:12:36,279
we'll go out there with air fifteens and just let

2773
02:12:36,359 --> 02:12:38,319
them up. I was like, man, you can't know, like

2774
02:12:38,439 --> 02:12:40,520
we got like there's neighbors to one of them is

2775
02:12:40,560 --> 02:12:42,319
a fucking nut job. Like I don't want to, you know,

2776
02:12:42,520 --> 02:12:45,680
we have to be more like as much as I

2777
02:12:45,720 --> 02:12:47,840
would love that, we got to be more targeted. If

2778
02:12:47,840 --> 02:12:51,159
you're gonna use rifles, get a suppressor, you'll need night vision.

2779
02:12:51,199 --> 02:12:53,439
You have to hang you know. I've heard too with

2780
02:12:53,560 --> 02:12:55,720
like suppressors too. When you start dropping them, they don't

2781
02:12:56,159 --> 02:12:57,760
It takes a while for them to even figure out

2782
02:12:57,800 --> 02:12:59,680
what's going on. You know, you can't they don't hear

2783
02:12:59,680 --> 02:13:02,840
anything but or corral traps. There was one I was

2784
02:13:02,920 --> 02:13:06,680
looking at that seem really but they're expensive. Yeah, they can.

2785
02:13:07,239 --> 02:13:10,359
Speaker 2: It's such a temporary solution for something that breeds fast.

2786
02:13:10,680 --> 02:13:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you'll have to keep it out there and

2787
02:13:12,760 --> 02:13:14,239
just it's like constantly.

2788
02:13:14,439 --> 02:13:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think you know something that I've

2789
02:13:17,720 --> 02:13:19,920
thought it's just kind of a theoretical idea, is that

2790
02:13:20,000 --> 02:13:23,680
if you could breed some that have like some sort

2791
02:13:23,680 --> 02:13:27,520
of genetics that uh, you know, compounds over generations that

2792
02:13:27,640 --> 02:13:31,560
eventually produces you know, ani that are that are infertile

2793
02:13:31,800 --> 02:13:34,840
or the only males or you know. It just they

2794
02:13:34,920 --> 02:13:38,199
never and it eventually never allows them to reach breeding age.

2795
02:13:38,640 --> 02:13:41,119
Then you could introduce those to the wild population and

2796
02:13:41,239 --> 02:13:44,000
be like, okay, go spread these. Yeah, eventually you get

2797
02:13:44,079 --> 02:13:45,079
something that kills them out.

2798
02:13:45,199 --> 02:13:46,680
Speaker 1: I think they were doing that with frail cats in

2799
02:13:46,720 --> 02:13:49,760
Australia too or something. I mean, it's not it's not immediate,

2800
02:13:49,840 --> 02:13:51,119
but it's certainly worse.

2801
02:13:51,239 --> 02:13:53,119
Speaker 2: You got to have some kind of long term solution

2802
02:13:53,279 --> 02:13:55,840
because they are so destructive to happitat.

2803
02:13:55,600 --> 02:13:59,079
Speaker 1: God, they just yeah, they're really they're like vacuum cleaners then, yeah,

2804
02:13:59,119 --> 02:14:02,079
they just like wrote a tiller mixed with a vacuum cleaner. Yeah,

2805
02:14:02,279 --> 02:14:04,880
and their dicks too. I have one a friend get attacked.

2806
02:14:04,880 --> 02:14:07,800
He carries a gun now because he was He was

2807
02:14:07,920 --> 02:14:09,920
attacked at is a nursery. He's got like a native

2808
02:14:09,960 --> 02:14:12,439
plant nursery and he'd bunch him come through and one

2809
02:14:12,439 --> 02:14:13,960
of them just went for him. He had the chin

2810
02:14:14,119 --> 02:14:18,600
up a tree, fucked up his dog. You know, yeah, brutal,

2811
02:14:19,119 --> 02:14:23,359
but anyway, man, I think that's it. I don't know,

2812
02:14:23,399 --> 02:14:25,319
what do you? How can people find it? You got

2813
02:14:25,359 --> 02:14:26,880
a YouTube channel, you got an Instagram?

2814
02:14:27,079 --> 02:14:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Instagram is pop Milk underscore herping pop Milk

2815
02:14:32,439 --> 02:14:36,439
itself was taken already, so but YouTube you can find

2816
02:14:36,479 --> 02:14:39,960
me at pop Milk and yeah you can, you know,

2817
02:14:40,119 --> 02:14:42,600
watch me. Basically what I do is I wear a

2818
02:14:42,640 --> 02:14:46,479
GoPro and we get the live flip clips of finding

2819
02:14:46,560 --> 02:14:49,760
snakes as we find him, so all the there's nothing stage,

2820
02:14:49,800 --> 02:14:51,359
you know that. The whole idea with it is that

2821
02:14:51,439 --> 02:14:54,159
you get to have that ride along experience of watching

2822
02:14:54,840 --> 02:14:57,880
you know, us find animals in the habitats that we've

2823
02:14:57,920 --> 02:15:01,279
created for them and get that really raw excited emotion.

2824
02:15:01,520 --> 02:15:04,159
You know, that helps us connect with being that kid again.

2825
02:15:04,760 --> 02:15:06,439
And uh, you know, if you're if you like to

2826
02:15:06,479 --> 02:15:09,760
watch that, then I hopefully it can kind of give

2827
02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:11,920
you that same, that same feeling.

2828
02:15:12,119 --> 02:15:14,640
Speaker 1: Are you still using drones? Some of your earlier videos

2829
02:15:14,680 --> 02:15:17,079
had drones. I see, I have pain in the ass though.

2830
02:15:17,279 --> 02:15:20,720
Speaker 2: I have a back and forth with that whereas I

2831
02:15:20,960 --> 02:15:23,399
want to use the drone to get some aerial footage,

2832
02:15:23,439 --> 02:15:26,760
but I also don't want to show too much. But

2833
02:15:26,920 --> 02:15:28,800
right now, so I have a newer iPhone and I

2834
02:15:28,880 --> 02:15:33,319
can't connect my drone controller to the phone. I didn't need.

2835
02:15:33,399 --> 02:15:35,399
I need, like, you know, some kind of little connector

2836
02:15:35,479 --> 02:15:38,159
cable that can make that make that happen, or just

2837
02:15:38,239 --> 02:15:41,039
get a new drone that works off its own little remote. Yeah,

2838
02:15:41,239 --> 02:15:43,279
because it's definitely something I want to do more of

2839
02:15:43,399 --> 02:15:46,640
because I like that that aspect, right and seeing that

2840
02:15:46,760 --> 02:15:47,760
kind of footage.

2841
02:15:47,560 --> 02:15:51,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really helps understand the habitat and and see

2842
02:15:52,680 --> 02:15:54,760
I don't know I have I'm just have such a

2843
02:15:54,880 --> 02:15:57,680
like for me, Like the other day going out was

2844
02:15:57,720 --> 02:16:00,840
so what was so cool to see was not just

2845
02:16:00,880 --> 02:16:03,760
the reptiles, but like the plants that are able to

2846
02:16:03,800 --> 02:16:07,159
survive in this habitat that's fully synthetic. It's created, it's

2847
02:16:07,279 --> 02:16:12,039
like inadvertently created, but it's still you know, it's really

2848
02:16:12,079 --> 02:16:14,199
attractive play like that. Like when I was doing videos

2849
02:16:14,199 --> 02:16:16,319
on like rust Belt Botany and just walking the train

2850
02:16:16,399 --> 02:16:18,960
tracks in Oakland, you know, past fucking homeless camps or whatever,

2851
02:16:19,079 --> 02:16:22,640
seeing what's growing on the side of these marginal areas

2852
02:16:22,680 --> 02:16:25,159
and nobody pays attention to or power lineisements or whatever.

2853
02:16:26,039 --> 02:16:29,039
It's it's so cool. What would you suggest for like

2854
02:16:29,199 --> 02:16:31,319
kids that are interested in this and don't know where

2855
02:16:31,359 --> 02:16:35,920
to start, and especially like in other places like California, Arizona,

2856
02:16:36,120 --> 02:16:40,159
fucking Nebraska, wherever Midwest colder climate. It's like what would

2857
02:16:40,200 --> 02:16:42,520
you what would you suggest if someone rote you was like,

2858
02:16:42,600 --> 02:16:44,120
how do I get started into this sound school?

2859
02:16:44,440 --> 02:16:47,079
Speaker 2: Go spend time outside, you know, go spend that time

2860
02:16:48,159 --> 02:16:50,040
getting one, get to know the habitat, you know, and

2861
02:16:50,159 --> 02:16:53,360
just enjoy it for the whole ecosystem that it is.

2862
02:16:54,280 --> 02:16:56,399
But also in order to like find the snakes, you know,

2863
02:16:56,479 --> 02:16:59,360
if you've got you know, if it's a habitat that

2864
02:16:59,399 --> 02:17:02,040
has rocks in it, you know, and if it's too

2865
02:17:02,079 --> 02:17:04,120
many rocks, sometimes it can be just too much to

2866
02:17:04,159 --> 02:17:06,600
actually find something. But you know, in places like Nebraska,

2867
02:17:06,719 --> 02:17:09,200
Kansas or whatever, you can go flip rocks and find snakes,

2868
02:17:09,600 --> 02:17:12,600
ring necks and stuff real easy. But also, you know,

2869
02:17:12,760 --> 02:17:15,719
get some plywood boards, get some junk, you know, like that,

2870
02:17:16,000 --> 02:17:20,079
you know, go find dumpsters or whatever kind of junk

2871
02:17:20,159 --> 02:17:22,520
is being discarded, you know, plywood boards and ten and

2872
02:17:22,600 --> 02:17:24,719
go set it out and see see what ends up

2873
02:17:24,760 --> 02:17:27,239
living under it. You know, find find a place that

2874
02:17:27,719 --> 02:17:29,479
can be your space, you know, and then go go

2875
02:17:29,639 --> 02:17:32,440
set that out and see see who's ends up using it,

2876
02:17:32,639 --> 02:17:36,440
and you know, follow whatever interests you you know, I

2877
02:17:36,840 --> 02:17:39,479
like milk snakes and king snakes, but that's not that's

2878
02:17:39,520 --> 02:17:41,920
not everybody's interest. You know. Some people like the racers,

2879
02:17:42,000 --> 02:17:45,079
they like the coach whips, they like rattlesnakes. You know,

2880
02:17:45,159 --> 02:17:48,440
it could be ring necks. You know, whatever sparks your interest.

2881
02:17:48,520 --> 02:17:51,559
I think you should follow that and and and chase

2882
02:17:51,639 --> 02:17:54,680
it and get to know those animals. And I think

2883
02:17:54,719 --> 02:17:56,920
that I think we need more people who are interested

2884
02:17:56,959 --> 02:17:59,920
in them because that's ultimately the people who can vow

2885
02:18:00,200 --> 02:18:02,319
for them and vote for them.

2886
02:18:02,520 --> 02:18:05,399
Speaker 1: You create a culture around any of these elements of

2887
02:18:05,399 --> 02:18:08,840
the living world, and it's like it's fucking so healthy

2888
02:18:08,959 --> 02:18:11,760
for the people that do it, and it's also really

2889
02:18:11,840 --> 02:18:15,639
healthy for the land and the organisms that they revolve around,

2890
02:18:15,760 --> 02:18:18,239
you know. I mean, if you really want to know

2891
02:18:18,319 --> 02:18:19,760
what you can do, the best thing you can do

2892
02:18:20,079 --> 02:18:23,479
is study something and learn about it and observe about it.

2893
02:18:23,600 --> 02:18:26,280
Like that takes respect for it, you know, like you're

2894
02:18:26,399 --> 02:18:29,520
respecting it by learning it and studying it. I think

2895
02:18:29,559 --> 02:18:31,840
it's so important and it's so fulfilling. Like what the

2896
02:18:31,879 --> 02:18:33,239
fuck else are you gonna do? Man? Well, you can

2897
02:18:33,760 --> 02:18:36,760
try to like save up money for fucking shiny shit

2898
02:18:36,840 --> 02:18:37,920
to oppress people.

2899
02:18:38,239 --> 02:18:40,920
Speaker 2: The shiny shit's not gonna stay for very long, you know.

2900
02:18:41,120 --> 02:18:44,680
Speaker 1: That, man, And it's it could be such a ruge too,

2901
02:18:44,840 --> 02:18:47,959
Like it doesn't. I'm not happy unless I'm creating or

2902
02:18:48,040 --> 02:18:50,680
learning something like. That's what I'm like. Okay, I'm actually

2903
02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:52,399
like doing something with my ship now.

2904
02:18:52,959 --> 02:18:53,120
Speaker 2: You know.

2905
02:18:53,280 --> 02:18:55,680
Speaker 1: If I'm just fucking sash around in like a nice

2906
02:18:55,760 --> 02:18:59,120
truck or some shit, I'm like, it's not it's ephemeral.

2907
02:18:59,239 --> 02:19:03,600
It's fleeting garbage. Yeah, but I could talk to you forever, man,

2908
02:19:03,639 --> 02:19:05,840
But thanks a lot. I really appreciate, appreciate you being

2909
02:19:05,920 --> 02:19:08,280
down to come on this and thank you for dragging

2910
02:19:08,360 --> 02:19:12,479
my ass out with you and Kyle littlemore everybody. So, uh,

2911
02:19:12,680 --> 02:19:15,280
all right, I guess that's it. So you got to

2912
02:19:15,319 --> 02:19:18,280
drive to Houston now, yeah, along, drive all right, man,

2913
02:19:18,319 --> 02:19:20,040
take you everybody else have a go ress to digg

2914
02:19:20,079 --> 02:19:20,639
fu yourself back