WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.879 Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is 2 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.519 not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:12.679 --> 00:00:16.440 Listen, man, you know I'm telling you. You know I'm 4 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:17.199 condescent to you. 5 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:18.399 I'm telling you that I did it. 6 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:20.440 Would you rast me? 7 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:27.399 Welcome to Season thirteen, episode three hundred and thirty six 8 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:30.480 of Sword and Scale, A show that reveals that the 9 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:55.399 worst monsters are real. You know, the show gets a 10 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:58.679 lot better when you stop complaining and just enjoy it. 11 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:01.000 I'm not going to start talking like you do. When 12 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:05.519 I don't know northern Michigan or West Appalaysia or god 13 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:08.239 forsake in Ohio, You're not gonna be able to get 14 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:10.319 me to talk exactly how you talk in your little, 15 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:11.840 specific local town. 16 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:12.799 So just stop. 17 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:14.000 You can't control everything. 18 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:25.200 Just stop trying to control everything. You're probably saying that 19 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:31.760 wrong anyway. It's usually a word that comes from a 20 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:35.359 different language, and shit y'all saying it in Ohio and 21 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:01.319 in a small newsroom in Batesville, Arkansas, George Jared was 22 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:05.159 a brand new, twenty something year old journalist. It was 23 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:09.199 September of two thousand and four. He was still learning 24 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:14.120 the rhythm of leads stories and deadlines. Most reporters expect 25 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:17.120 stories to come and go. That's the nature of the job. 26 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:22.120 Research it, write about it, and move on. Maybe go 27 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.800 get a peppermint latte from Starbucks before they take him 28 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:28.919 off the menu. But every so often a case doesn't 29 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:32.919 let go, or maybe there's just something about a certain 30 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:38.599 personality type that just can't let it go. For George, 31 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:43.159 that case arrived just as his career began. 32 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:45.159 I'd been there maybe seven months. 33 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.960 I was just out of college, and you know, most 34 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.280 of the stuff I'm covering, like school board meetings and 35 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:52.520 you know, city council stuff, and you know, i'd go 36 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:54.680 to do features at local schools and whatnot. 37 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.360 And then one I remember very vividly. 38 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.840 It was a Wednesday morning, phone rings at my pick 39 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:02.800 it up and a woman was on the phone and. 40 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.479 She said, my niece is missing and we can't find her. 41 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:08.879 And I said, really, George jumped in his car and 42 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.479 drove straight to where the woman said she was calling 43 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:14.240 from the Izard County Sheriff's office. 44 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:17.960 And then I walked over to some family members and 45 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:21.240 Rebecca's mother handed me a missing poster that I still 46 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:24.639 have to this day at sitting in the other room. 47 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.719 The missing girl was twenty two year old Rebecca Gould. 48 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:32.400 And so immediately I started talking to Rebecca's mother and 49 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:35.800 one of her sisters, and I just flipped the missing 50 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.159 poster over on its other side, and I put it 51 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.960 up against the building, and I just started taking notes 52 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:43.080 on the back, and those notes are still there. And 53 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.360 then I walked over to her father, doctor Larry Gould, 54 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:47.840 and he was standing with another one of. 55 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.280 His daughters, and that's how I first met. 56 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.039 Him, and I just I was out with them the 57 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:55.360 whole week that she was missing. 58 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:57.000 That's how it started. 59 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:02.240 Apparently, Rebecca had arrived in the small town of Melbourne, Arkansas, 60 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:06.319 on Saturday, September eighteenth, to visit her boyfriend, Casey McCullough. 61 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.960 She was on break from college, but it wasn't unusual 62 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.240 for her to take a few days off to see friends. 63 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.639 Rebecca's mother told George she'd talked with her daughter on 64 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.680 the phone just the day before, but during their call, 65 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:23.480 Rebecca realized she was about to run out of minutes, 66 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:27.319 so she told her mom she'd call back. That call 67 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:33.040 never came. When police searched Casey's house, everything looked fairly 68 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:36.800 normal until they reached the back bedroom, the room Casey 69 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:42.160 and Rebecca would sleep in. Inside, they found a bloodsiak 70 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:45.319 mattress that had been stripped and propped up against the wall. 71 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.439 The box springs remained, and it too was stained red. 72 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:55.120 The bedclothes were spinning around in the washing machine, wet 73 00:04:55.160 --> 00:05:00.800 fabric mixed with bleach and blood. Interestingly, any fingerprints on 74 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.639 the washing machine had been wiped away, probably with the 75 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:07.439 brand new cleaning supplies that sat on the kitchen counter. 76 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:12.040 Back in the bedroom, again, sections of carpeting had to 77 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.360 be cut up and taken in for evidence. The amount 78 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.959 of blood was so extreme and had seeped into the subfloor. 79 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:23.160 At this point, detectives knew they'd be searching for a 80 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.879 dead body, not an alive Rebecca. 81 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:30.519 And you know, Monday morning came one week later, on 82 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:33.279 September twenty seven, two thousand and four. I was at 83 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:35.680 the office, probably five or six o'clock in the morning. 84 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:39.199 I got there really early, and I just decided, for 85 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:40.600 some reason, I felt like I needed to go back 86 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:43.600 to Melbourne, because my office was about twenty five or 87 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:45.480 so miles away, and so I. 88 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:46.279 Drove down there. 89 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.560 There were some ladies walking around in the courthouse, you know, 90 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.279 kind of a southern thing. 91 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.480 To walk around, you know, the courthouse in the morning. 92 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.959 And I overheard as I was walking past them, I 93 00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:59.360 was going to go talk to the county judge and 94 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:01.120 I was gonna see it. They were coordinating their search 95 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.439 efforts that day, because the county's big, and it's very 96 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:09.439 rule and it's very mountainous and so it's hard. And 97 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:12.759 I overheard, let me say, hey, they're out searching over 98 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.560 by or my property or my house something like that. 99 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:17.000 And I said, where do you live? 100 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.399 And she said that she lived down Highway nine, which 101 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:22.800 is a thoroughfare that connects Melbourne to Mountain View, which 102 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:24.040 is Rebecca's hometown. 103 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:25.279 It's very treacherous. 104 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:29.839 Twenty years ago, George still had that restless new reporter energy. 105 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:33.680 This case had already begun to dig its claws into him. 106 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:36.399 He knew he had to go help with the. 107 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:39.240 Search efforts, and so I drove down there. 108 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:41.000 I saw a line of cars on the side of 109 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.399 the road, just pulled in behind him, got out. It 110 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:47.839 was very steep, you know, lots of trees and bushes. 111 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:50.279 I saw a searcher and I asked him, I said, 112 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:52.759 do you guys out here looking for Rebecca, and he says, 113 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.000 she's right there, and he pointed at her and she 114 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:56.839 was just laying there. 115 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:08.360 Volunteers had already been searching for days, but on this 116 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.920 particular day, at this spot, about five miles outside of Melbourne, 117 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:19.759 they noticed vultures circling overhead, never a good sign. Searchers 118 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:24.199 located Rebecca's severely decomposed body about thirty five feet down 119 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:28.519 the embankment. She was wearing only a T shirt and underwear. 120 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.360 You could see her her hair was like over her head, 121 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.399 like her face. I mean when I didn't realize at 122 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.680 the time it literally it had decomposed off of her 123 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:40.399 scalp and had just moved down. It almost looked like, 124 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:42.000 you know, like if you flip if you have long hair, 125 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:45.000 and its flipped it over like that. I was in 126 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.480 an absolute chock, like it was like being in a tunnel. 127 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:50.839 That's the only way I could describe it. Like all 128 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.120 of a sudden, I couldn't hear anything, I couldn't see anything. 129 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.399 My heart was racing, my head just was throbbing. 130 00:07:57.199 --> 00:07:59.160 You know. At the time, I had. 131 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:02.319 Two very small kids, and so I'm sitting here thinking 132 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:05.079 I've just talked to this mom and his dad and 133 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.079 they're hoping on hope that this is what happened. A 134 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:12.480 few minutes later, I drive back to the Sheriff's department, which, 135 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:14.600 as the crow flies, is only four or five miles 136 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:17.560 from this place where she was dumped, and her father, 137 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.360 doctor Larry Gould, came running up to me and he 138 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.800 grabbed me and he said, did they fight my daughter? 139 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:25.639 And I said, Larry, you need to go talk to 140 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:29.000 the sheriff right now. And he grabbed me and he said, 141 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:33.279 did they fight my daughter? And I said yes, and 142 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:35.799 he just collapsed, went to his knees and started crying, 143 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:36.440 put his head. 144 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:37.960 In my stomach. And this is a man I hadn't either. 145 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:39.799 I'd known him for five days. 146 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:44.759 Rebecca was gone forever, and for a few days time stopped, 147 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:47.960 at least for the people who had hoped she'd come 148 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:48.559 home alive. 149 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:51.679 I can honestly say that I was never the same 150 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.720 person after that. I remember, I wrote when I wrote 151 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:57.200 the story. 152 00:08:57.240 --> 00:08:57.840 I wrote it. 153 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:00.679 I went back to the office that night and I 154 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:03.559 stayed till four o'clock in the morning writing it. And 155 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.120 it was the newspaper office was his old creaky building 156 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:10.120 is a huge building, and if the wind blew, you know, 157 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:12.320 you hear all these creaking sounds. And I was just 158 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.679 sitting there with her missing poster sitting on my desk. 159 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.360 And I've written about this before. I have never every 160 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:23.919 single resume that I've ever submitted after this attached to 161 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.159 that resume was a story I wrote about her case. 162 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:30.600 And she never left me. It was in my soul. 163 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:35.320 After that, everyone's focus shifted to finding Rebecca's killer, well, 164 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.799 the medical examiner did, the autopsy. Investigators turned their attention 165 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:41.519 to the trailer where she had last been seen. 166 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:43.320 She was on it. 167 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.559 She had an on again, off again boyfriend named Casey McCullough, 168 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.440 and she would come back. You know, she was living 169 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:51.759 up in northwest Arkansas at this point. She'd come back 170 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:54.759 and see him on the weekend. She'd stay at his house. 171 00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:56.879 They were just kind of on again, off again, you 172 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:58.159 know how it is when you're that age, you know, 173 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:00.399 twenty two, and you know you're dating someone and you know, 174 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.120 and he obviously was not a long term thing for her. 175 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:06.039 There's she was quite a catch for him, I guess, 176 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.399 I'll just put it that way. And he was obsessed 177 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.759 with her. He was totally in love with her, but weirdly, 178 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.960 when she vanished, he didn't spend one second looking for her. 179 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:18.639 And tell me, how do you come to know Rebecca? 180 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:22.039 We worked at Sonic together, and very first day that 181 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:22.600 she worked. 182 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.200 At Sonic, I thought she must beautiful creature I ever seen, So, 183 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:28.240 you know, that's when we started talking. 184 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.039 How long did you live with Rebecca? 185 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:34.080 For? About two two? 186 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:34.320 Much? 187 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:41.399 And after that just a relationship? Did y'all split up 188 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:42.360 or what took place? 189 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:45.240 Well, we did split up. 190 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:47.080 We decided that, you know, it'd be better for just 191 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:49.600 stay friends, and that's what we did. We still spend 192 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:50.279 awful lot of time. 193 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:55.039 She would live with certain people at certain times, you know, 194 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:56.720 and she kind of bounced around a little bit. But 195 00:10:56.759 --> 00:10:59.440 then she finally decided that she wanted to go into 196 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:03.679 pharmaceutical sales. And so she had a sister that was 197 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:05.919 already going to school up in Fayetteville, which. 198 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:08.399 Is about three hours or so for Melbourne. 199 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:11.519 So she moved up there and she moved in with 200 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:15.000 her sister in an apartment, and she started attending a 201 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.320 local community college and she started taking classes, and so 202 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:20.159 she was twenty two and she was just trying to 203 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:20.960 get her life together. 204 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:26.440 The previous spring, Rebecca and Casey's relationship had been pretty serious. 205 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:30.840 Casey was head over heels for her, which brought out 206 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:34.480 the controlling side of them that didn't work well with 207 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.480 Rebecca's fiery personality. By the end of the summer, things 208 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:41.960 had become a little messy. On her drive from northwest 209 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:45.679 Arkansas to Melbourne, Rebecca told her sister that this would 210 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:46.720 be her final trip. 211 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:49.799 She told her sister She's like, I'm done, this is it, 212 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:52.519 and then they stop off at their dad's house. He 213 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:55.399 gives the meech one hundred dollars bill on their way 214 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:57.759 to Melbourne, and she tells her father. She says, I'm 215 00:11:57.799 --> 00:11:58.480 done with Casey. 216 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:00.679 It's over. We're done. 217 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.960 Detectives often use an investigative strategy called Canter and Larkin's 218 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:09.600 circle theory. It's a fancy way of saying that most 219 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.200 offenders don't stray far from home when they commit a crime. 220 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:18.039 They stick to what they know, neighborhoods, they've been in, routes. 221 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:23.200 They're comfortable with places that feel familiar, So investigators start 222 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:29.679 looking close to the victim, family, partners, roommates. Then they 223 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:34.440 widen the lens to include friends, co workers, casual acquaintances, 224 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:38.679 and if that still turns up nothing, Only then do 225 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.840 they start to consider strangers. With this in mind, you'd 226 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:44.720 think the first person in the hot seat would be 227 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:50.440 the boyfriend. It's always the boyfriend, right. Arkansas State Police 228 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:54.759 didn't think so. Instead, they zerode in on an old 229 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:55.720 friend of Rebecca's. 230 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:59.639 The main suspects for years and years and years and 231 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:01.840 years was Chris Cantrell. 232 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:03.200 And he was just this. 233 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:06.320 Guy who was involved in a local, you know, kind 234 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:08.759 of drug scene. You know, he I don't think he 235 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:10.840 sold a lot of drugs that he consumednewim he'd get 236 00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:14.240 in trouble for it. And this guy, I mean, you're 237 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:18.639 not talking about somebody who has the sophistication probably to 238 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:21.480 you know, wipe their own DNA from a crime scene 239 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.159 or get rid of all their fingerprints and all this 240 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.080 other stuff. Because the story was is that he he 241 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.320 killed her over like a very small drug debt, like 242 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.480 now I'm talking like forty dollars, which was really weird 243 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:36.080 because she had at least that much money in her 244 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:39.919 possession when she was killed. So if that was the motive, 245 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:42.639 why didn't he take some of her stuff or her 246 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:46.399 cash or And the second problem with it was was 247 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:51.240 that you know I've written about assassinations. You know where 248 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:53.720 somebody is. You know, you're you're you're involved in a 249 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:55.679 drug trade, and we're going to get rid of you. 250 00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:58.919 And that involves something very simple. They come with a gun, 251 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.200 they shoot you in the head, and they leave. 252 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.600 They don't do anything else, and they walk away. 253 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:10.000 Rebecca's autopsy report remained unreleased for years. Even today, only 254 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:13.000 a few people have a copy of it. The report 255 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:17.080 suggests that she was likely bludgeoned. It's hard to tell 256 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:20.320 if there were any defensive wounds. She'd been exposed to 257 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:23.559 the elements for a week, and her body was very 258 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:28.960 badly decomposed. Rebecca had two clear blunt force injuries, one 259 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.440 to the left side of her head and one that 260 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:34.840 was a direct hit on the center of her face. 261 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.279 Experts and medical professionals who have read and analyzed the 262 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.200 report say that neither of those injuries would have killed 263 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:46.759 her immediately. In fact, it's very possible that Rebecca was 264 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:51.000 alive for hours after the killer hit her. Even worse, 265 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:53.919 she could have been alive when her body was dumped 266 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.720 down the embankment. As for the weapon, the autopsy pointed 267 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:03.759 to something long, thin and heavy, something like a tire 268 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:09.360 iron or a bat. And in the house where Rebecca disappeared, 269 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:14.559 police noticed something strange. The piano. Yeah, there was a piano. 270 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.080 The piano was missing one of its legs. 271 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:21.639 This story that this guy shows up at this house 272 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:22.799 out of the middle of nowhere that the he's never 273 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:25.720 been before, doesn't bring a weapon. He's like huge, I 274 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:27.360 wonder if, oh, I wonder if the piano leg will 275 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:28.480 come off with this piano over here? 276 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:30.879 Okay, whoa, here we go. Yeah, I mean, it was 277 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.600 just this ridiculous, stupid, like are you kidding me? Story? 278 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:34.399 Like come on. 279 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:39.039 A guy named Dennis was the Arkansas State Police detective 280 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.879 working the case. This man was hell bent on pushing 281 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:47.399 the Chris Cantrell story and he wouldn't give up you 282 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:48.639 goo as a hell of a drug. 283 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.200 Well, Dennis was an narcotics officer. 284 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.159 They had a working theory that drugs were somehow involved 285 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:57.320 in this, even though no drugs were found in their 286 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.080 system that they could find, and he had hit. He 287 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.639 had dealt with Chris in the past. And I've always 288 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.240 said this about Dennis, It's one of my favorite sayings. 289 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:08.879 You know, if you're born a hammer. Every problem in 290 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:10.480 the world has to be a nail. There's no other. 291 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.399 It can't be a screw, it can't be a attack. 292 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.559 It's got to be a nail. So that's what he 293 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:17.639 turned his case into. 294 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.120 Dennis gets the case I think in November December, and 295 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.120 then he starts to focus in on Chris Cantrell. And 296 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:29.960 it was pretty widely known by like June July two 297 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.840 thousand and five, that they were focusing on Chris. I mean, 298 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:34.720 that was that was out in the public. People talked 299 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:35.159 about it. 300 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.159 There were other suspects along the way, and people in 301 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.279 town gossiped about the possibility that Rebecca's boyfriend, Casey was 302 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.799 the real killer. But this detective wouldn't hear any of it. 303 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:51.159 He refused to look into any tips or reanalyze any 304 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:55.519 of the existing evidence. But a lot of it pointed 305 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.440 straight to Casey McCullough. 306 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:03.320 I mean, I spent, you know, years just befuddled by 307 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.440 the detective because, you know, you automatically assume that they 308 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.279 know more than you know, because they've got the case file, 309 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:09.759 and there must be I had there had to be 310 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:12.559 something in there that was really pointing them away from him. 311 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:15.839 George didn't get his hands on the case file until 312 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.039 years later, but by the time he'd read it, this 313 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.759 detective decided to pay him a surprise visit, armed with 314 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:24.880 all the original evidence. This turned out to be a 315 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:28.920 perfect opportunity for George to ask Dennis why he was 316 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.400 so focused on the wrong suspect. 317 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:32.680 And I'm not kidding you. 318 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.039 This guy, this detective snuck into a book signing of 319 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:39.720 mine one time and these cut off daisy duke looking shorts, 320 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.279 cut off flannel shirt. I mean, like, I'm not going 321 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:45.599 to notice this dude coming in here. I pitch him 322 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:47.920 the book because I didn't recognize him at this point. 323 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:50.359 And then as I said, do you want to buy 324 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:53.480 a book, He's like, He's like, no, I'm specially Agententis 325 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:54.720 Simon was with the argisal State Relieves. 326 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:56.559 He pulls out his badge and I looked at him. 327 00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:58.759 I'm like, okay, Dennis, I haven't seen you in years, 328 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:01.279 but you know, come on, and he. 329 00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:03.920 Tells me I can't. I told him, I said, I 330 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:09.319 don't understand something here. Why would he clean up the mess? 331 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:13.119 Why wouldn't he just take a match in torch the place? 332 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:15.799 And he said, George, if you had a case file, 333 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:20.279 you know exactly why this person did this thing. And 334 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:22.400 I'm like, okay, well we have the case file now 335 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:25.279 and it's even more incomprehensible. 336 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.240 This Dennis character sure does remind me of Lieutenant Jim 337 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.359 Dangle from Reno nine one one. Can you picture it? 338 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:38.960 Life imitates art, I guess Rebecca's case whirled around in 339 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:42.480 George's mind for years, and all the while it had 340 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.480 become a closed loop. He wrote articles about the case 341 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:50.559 and about various theories, but law enforcement was holding all 342 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:55.039 the information under lock and key. They held no press 343 00:18:55.079 --> 00:19:01.519 conferences and gave no updates. Fourteen years with no progress. 344 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:05.240 When Rebecca's father tried to request a copy of her 345 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:09.640 autopsy report, officials denied it, citing the case was still active. 346 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:15.160 George kept writing articles, Websleuth's discussed the case to death, 347 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:19.880 and by twenty eighteen, a woman named Catherine Townsend hoped 348 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:22.759 to put even more eyes on this mystery by doing 349 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:27.480 a podcast. Rebecca was murdered in this woman's hometown, so 350 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:31.920 she traveled back there, lived in the community for six months, 351 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:34.039 and did her own investigation. 352 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.720 I first heard about a podcast called Hellngon in late 353 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:39.480 twenty eighteen. 354 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:45.359 This is Jen Bucholtz. She's a former US Army counterintelligence 355 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:49.559 agent who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. She now teaches 356 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:53.599 forensic science at American Military University and works as a 357 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:59.079 cold case investigator for Colorado's El Paso County Sheriff's Office. 358 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:02.480 And it was my content editor at the university who 359 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.000 we would go back and forth sometimes about new podcasts 360 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.799 and cases, and sometimes I'd write about different cases and 361 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:10.640 she's like, you really should listen to Helen. I think 362 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:12.680 you're going to find that case really interesting. Maybe you 363 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:14.519 want to write about it. And so, of course she 364 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:18.359 was correct, and I binged it and George was featured 365 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.599 in several of the episodes. So I thought, well, I'll 366 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:22.640 reach out to this George guy. He clearly knows the 367 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.240 case really well, and so, like, I very carefully crafted 368 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.920 this email to him. Whatever I wrote, which I don't 369 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.680 totally remember now caught his attention because he called me 370 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.440 pretty much right away, and then we ended up on 371 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:37.279 the phone for three hours and twenty two minutes, I believe, 372 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.039 our first conversation, and so it was like, oh, yeah, 373 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:41.200 we're going to work on this case. 374 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:42.799 I think, I don't know. 375 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:46.720 We had very similar mindset was the behaviors that this 376 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:51.759 killer took and the importance of understanding those behaviors and 377 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:55.480 what they meant about the relationship between the killer and victim. 378 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:57.799 Very clear that the detective at the time had no 379 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:01.519 idea about criminal profiling or behavioral analysis and it was 380 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.920 really being overlooked. And that was like one of my 381 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.480 key points in reaching out to George, and as you'll hear, 382 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:09.319 he had the same thoughts through the years. 383 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:14.279 Jen Bucholtz spent years working as a private investigator before 384 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:18.799 stepping into her current role in cold case investigations. Now 385 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.599 embedded within a police department, she sees a sharp divide, 386 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:28.279 maybe even a distrust, between law enforcement and civilian investigators. 387 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:33.400 In many cases, police simply won't accept outside help. Again, 388 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.920 Ego is a hell of a drug. Rebecca's father, doctor 389 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.759 Larry Gould, learned that the hard way. He spent thousands 390 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.960 on private investigators over the years, but law enforcement never 391 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:50.480 seemed interested in what they uncovered. Here's doctor Gould. 392 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:53.839 The law enforcement officers that to me are truly the 393 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:56.119 real professionals are the ones that reach out to the 394 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.599 public and they ask for help. The ones that reach 395 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.839 out and say that. 396 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:03.039 They don't use their ego. 397 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:07.400 They say, I'm the officer, I'm in charge of this case. 398 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:08.240 Help me. 399 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:13.839 Now, there's somebody I respect, and there's no reason to 400 00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:16.279 not be that way, especially nowadays, there's a lot of 401 00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:17.720