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Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is

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not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Listen, man, you know I'm telling you. You know I'm

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condescent to you.

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Speaker 3: I'm telling you that I did it.

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Speaker 2: Would you rast me?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Season thirteen, episode three hundred and thirty six

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of Sword and Scale, A show that reveals that the

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worst monsters are real. You know, the show gets a

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lot better when you stop complaining and just enjoy it.

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I'm not going to start talking like you do. When

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I don't know northern Michigan or West Appalaysia or god

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forsake in Ohio, You're not gonna be able to get

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me to talk exactly how you talk in your little,

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specific local town.

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Speaker 4: So just stop.

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Speaker 5: You can't control everything.

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Speaker 1: Just stop trying to control everything. You're probably saying that

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wrong anyway. It's usually a word that comes from a

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different language, and shit y'all saying it in Ohio and

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in a small newsroom in Batesville, Arkansas, George Jared was

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a brand new, twenty something year old journalist. It was

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September of two thousand and four. He was still learning

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the rhythm of leads stories and deadlines. Most reporters expect

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stories to come and go. That's the nature of the job.

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Research it, write about it, and move on. Maybe go

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get a peppermint latte from Starbucks before they take him

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off the menu. But every so often a case doesn't

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let go, or maybe there's just something about a certain

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personality type that just can't let it go. For George,

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that case arrived just as his career began.

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Speaker 5: I'd been there maybe seven months.

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Speaker 4: I was just out of college, and you know, most

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of the stuff I'm covering, like school board meetings and

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you know, city council stuff, and you know, i'd go

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to do features at local schools and whatnot.

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Speaker 5: And then one I remember very vividly.

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Speaker 4: It was a Wednesday morning, phone rings at my pick

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it up and a woman was on the phone and.

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Speaker 5: She said, my niece is missing and we can't find her.

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Speaker 1: And I said, really, George jumped in his car and

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drove straight to where the woman said she was calling

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from the Izard County Sheriff's office.

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Speaker 5: And then I walked over to some family members and

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Rebecca's mother handed me a missing poster that I still

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have to this day at sitting in the other room.

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Speaker 1: The missing girl was twenty two year old Rebecca Gould.

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Speaker 4: And so immediately I started talking to Rebecca's mother and

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one of her sisters, and I just flipped the missing

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poster over on its other side, and I put it

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up against the building, and I just started taking notes

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on the back, and those notes are still there. And

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then I walked over to her father, doctor Larry Gould,

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and he was standing with another one of.

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Speaker 5: His daughters, and that's how I first met.

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Speaker 4: Him, and I just I was out with them the

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whole week that she was missing.

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Speaker 5: That's how it started.

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Speaker 1: Apparently, Rebecca had arrived in the small town of Melbourne, Arkansas,

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on Saturday, September eighteenth, to visit her boyfriend, Casey McCullough.

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She was on break from college, but it wasn't unusual

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for her to take a few days off to see friends.

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Rebecca's mother told George she'd talked with her daughter on

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the phone just the day before, but during their call,

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Rebecca realized she was about to run out of minutes,

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so she told her mom she'd call back. That call

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never came. When police searched Casey's house, everything looked fairly

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normal until they reached the back bedroom, the room Casey

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and Rebecca would sleep in. Inside, they found a bloodsiak

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mattress that had been stripped and propped up against the wall.

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The box springs remained, and it too was stained red.

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The bedclothes were spinning around in the washing machine, wet

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fabric mixed with bleach and blood. Interestingly, any fingerprints on

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the washing machine had been wiped away, probably with the

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brand new cleaning supplies that sat on the kitchen counter.

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Back in the bedroom, again, sections of carpeting had to

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be cut up and taken in for evidence. The amount

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of blood was so extreme and had seeped into the subfloor.

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At this point, detectives knew they'd be searching for a

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dead body, not an alive Rebecca.

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Speaker 4: And you know, Monday morning came one week later, on

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September twenty seven, two thousand and four. I was at

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the office, probably five or six o'clock in the morning.

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I got there really early, and I just decided, for

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some reason, I felt like I needed to go back

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to Melbourne, because my office was about twenty five or

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so miles away, and so I.

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Speaker 5: Drove down there.

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Speaker 4: There were some ladies walking around in the courthouse, you know,

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kind of a southern thing.

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Speaker 5: To walk around, you know, the courthouse in the morning.

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Speaker 4: And I overheard as I was walking past them, I

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was going to go talk to the county judge and

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I was gonna see it. They were coordinating their search

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efforts that day, because the county's big, and it's very

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rule and it's very mountainous and so it's hard. And

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I overheard, let me say, hey, they're out searching over

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by or my property or my house something like that.

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Speaker 5: And I said, where do you live?

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Speaker 4: And she said that she lived down Highway nine, which

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is a thoroughfare that connects Melbourne to Mountain View, which

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is Rebecca's hometown.

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Speaker 5: It's very treacherous.

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Speaker 1: Twenty years ago, George still had that restless new reporter energy.

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This case had already begun to dig its claws into him.

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He knew he had to go help with the.

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Speaker 5: Search efforts, and so I drove down there.

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Speaker 4: I saw a line of cars on the side of

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the road, just pulled in behind him, got out. It

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was very steep, you know, lots of trees and bushes.

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I saw a searcher and I asked him, I said,

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do you guys out here looking for Rebecca, and he says,

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she's right there, and he pointed at her and she

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was just laying there.

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Speaker 1: Volunteers had already been searching for days, but on this

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particular day, at this spot, about five miles outside of Melbourne,

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they noticed vultures circling overhead, never a good sign. Searchers

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located Rebecca's severely decomposed body about thirty five feet down

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the embankment. She was wearing only a T shirt and underwear.

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Speaker 4: You could see her her hair was like over her head,

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like her face. I mean when I didn't realize at

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the time it literally it had decomposed off of her

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scalp and had just moved down. It almost looked like,

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you know, like if you flip if you have long hair,

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and its flipped it over like that. I was in

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an absolute chock, like it was like being in a tunnel.

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That's the only way I could describe it. Like all

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of a sudden, I couldn't hear anything, I couldn't see anything.

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My heart was racing, my head just was throbbing.

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Speaker 5: You know. At the time, I had.

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Speaker 4: Two very small kids, and so I'm sitting here thinking

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I've just talked to this mom and his dad and

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they're hoping on hope that this is what happened. A

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few minutes later, I drive back to the Sheriff's department, which,

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as the crow flies, is only four or five miles

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from this place where she was dumped, and her father,

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doctor Larry Gould, came running up to me and he

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grabbed me and he said, did they fight my daughter?

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And I said, Larry, you need to go talk to

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the sheriff right now. And he grabbed me and he said,

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did they fight my daughter? And I said yes, and

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he just collapsed, went to his knees and started crying,

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put his head.

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Speaker 5: In my stomach. And this is a man I hadn't either.

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I'd known him for five days.

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Speaker 1: Rebecca was gone forever, and for a few days time stopped,

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at least for the people who had hoped she'd come

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home alive.

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Speaker 4: I can honestly say that I was never the same

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person after that. I remember, I wrote when I wrote

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the story.

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Speaker 2: I wrote it.

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Speaker 4: I went back to the office that night and I

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stayed till four o'clock in the morning writing it. And

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it was the newspaper office was his old creaky building

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is a huge building, and if the wind blew, you know,

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you hear all these creaking sounds. And I was just

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sitting there with her missing poster sitting on my desk.

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And I've written about this before. I have never every

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single resume that I've ever submitted after this attached to

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that resume was a story I wrote about her case.

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Speaker 5: And she never left me. It was in my soul.

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Speaker 1: After that, everyone's focus shifted to finding Rebecca's killer, well,

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the medical examiner did, the autopsy. Investigators turned their attention

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to the trailer where she had last been seen.

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Speaker 5: She was on it.

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Speaker 4: She had an on again, off again boyfriend named Casey McCullough,

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and she would come back. You know, she was living

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up in northwest Arkansas at this point. She'd come back

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and see him on the weekend. She'd stay at his house.

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They were just kind of on again, off again, you

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know how it is when you're that age, you know,

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twenty two, and you know you're dating someone and you know,

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and he obviously was not a long term thing for her.

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There's she was quite a catch for him, I guess,

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I'll just put it that way. And he was obsessed

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with her. He was totally in love with her, but weirdly,

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when she vanished, he didn't spend one second looking for her.

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Speaker 6: And tell me, how do you come to know Rebecca?

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Speaker 7: We worked at Sonic together, and very first day that

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she worked.

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Speaker 8: At Sonic, I thought she must beautiful creature I ever seen, So,

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you know, that's when we started talking.

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Speaker 2: How long did you live with Rebecca?

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Speaker 7: For? About two two?

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Speaker 2: Much?

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Speaker 8: And after that just a relationship? Did y'all split up

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or what took place?

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Speaker 2: Well, we did split up.

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Speaker 7: We decided that, you know, it'd be better for just

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stay friends, and that's what we did. We still spend

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awful lot of time.

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Speaker 4: She would live with certain people at certain times, you know,

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and she kind of bounced around a little bit. But

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then she finally decided that she wanted to go into

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pharmaceutical sales. And so she had a sister that was

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already going to school up in Fayetteville, which.

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Speaker 5: Is about three hours or so for Melbourne.

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Speaker 4: So she moved up there and she moved in with

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her sister in an apartment, and she started attending a

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local community college and she started taking classes, and so

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she was twenty two and she was just trying to

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get her life together.

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Speaker 1: The previous spring, Rebecca and Casey's relationship had been pretty serious.

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Casey was head over heels for her, which brought out

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the controlling side of them that didn't work well with

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Rebecca's fiery personality. By the end of the summer, things

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had become a little messy. On her drive from northwest

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Arkansas to Melbourne, Rebecca told her sister that this would

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be her final trip.

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Speaker 4: She told her sister She's like, I'm done, this is it,

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and then they stop off at their dad's house. He

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gives the meech one hundred dollars bill on their way

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to Melbourne, and she tells her father. She says, I'm

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done with Casey.

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Speaker 5: It's over. We're done.

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Speaker 1: Detectives often use an investigative strategy called Canter and Larkin's

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circle theory. It's a fancy way of saying that most

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offenders don't stray far from home when they commit a crime.

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They stick to what they know, neighborhoods, they've been in, routes.

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They're comfortable with places that feel familiar, So investigators start

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looking close to the victim, family, partners, roommates. Then they

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widen the lens to include friends, co workers, casual acquaintances,

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and if that still turns up nothing, Only then do

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they start to consider strangers. With this in mind, you'd

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think the first person in the hot seat would be

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the boyfriend. It's always the boyfriend, right. Arkansas State Police

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didn't think so. Instead, they zerode in on an old

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friend of Rebecca's.

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Speaker 4: The main suspects for years and years and years and

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years was Chris Cantrell.

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Speaker 5: And he was just this.

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Speaker 4: Guy who was involved in a local, you know, kind

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of drug scene. You know, he I don't think he

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sold a lot of drugs that he consumednewim he'd get

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in trouble for it. And this guy, I mean, you're

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not talking about somebody who has the sophistication probably to

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you know, wipe their own DNA from a crime scene

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or get rid of all their fingerprints and all this

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other stuff. Because the story was is that he he

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killed her over like a very small drug debt, like

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now I'm talking like forty dollars, which was really weird

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because she had at least that much money in her

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possession when she was killed. So if that was the motive,

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why didn't he take some of her stuff or her

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cash or And the second problem with it was was

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that you know I've written about assassinations. You know where

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somebody is. You know, you're you're you're involved in a

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drug trade, and we're going to get rid of you.

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And that involves something very simple. They come with a gun,

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they shoot you in the head, and they leave.

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Speaker 5: They don't do anything else, and they walk away.

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Speaker 1: Rebecca's autopsy report remained unreleased for years. Even today, only

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a few people have a copy of it. The report

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suggests that she was likely bludgeoned. It's hard to tell

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if there were any defensive wounds. She'd been exposed to

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the elements for a week, and her body was very

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badly decomposed. Rebecca had two clear blunt force injuries, one

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to the left side of her head and one that

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was a direct hit on the center of her face.

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Experts and medical professionals who have read and analyzed the

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report say that neither of those injuries would have killed

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her immediately. In fact, it's very possible that Rebecca was

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alive for hours after the killer hit her. Even worse,

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she could have been alive when her body was dumped

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down the embankment. As for the weapon, the autopsy pointed

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to something long, thin and heavy, something like a tire

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iron or a bat. And in the house where Rebecca disappeared,

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police noticed something strange. The piano. Yeah, there was a piano.

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The piano was missing one of its legs.

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Speaker 4: This story that this guy shows up at this house

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out of the middle of nowhere that the he's never

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been before, doesn't bring a weapon. He's like huge, I

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wonder if, oh, I wonder if the piano leg will

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come off with this piano over here?

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Speaker 5: Okay, whoa, here we go. Yeah, I mean, it was

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just this ridiculous, stupid, like are you kidding me? Story?

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Like come on.

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Speaker 1: A guy named Dennis was the Arkansas State Police detective

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working the case. This man was hell bent on pushing

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the Chris Cantrell story and he wouldn't give up you

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goo as a hell of a drug.

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Speaker 5: Well, Dennis was an narcotics officer.

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Speaker 4: They had a working theory that drugs were somehow involved

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in this, even though no drugs were found in their

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system that they could find, and he had hit. He

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had dealt with Chris in the past. And I've always

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said this about Dennis, It's one of my favorite sayings.

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Speaker 5: You know, if you're born a hammer. Every problem in

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the world has to be a nail. There's no other.

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It can't be a screw, it can't be a attack.

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It's got to be a nail. So that's what he

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turned his case into.

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Speaker 4: Dennis gets the case I think in November December, and

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then he starts to focus in on Chris Cantrell. And

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it was pretty widely known by like June July two

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thousand and five, that they were focusing on Chris. I mean,

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that was that was out in the public. People talked

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about it.

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Speaker 1: There were other suspects along the way, and people in

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town gossiped about the possibility that Rebecca's boyfriend, Casey was

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the real killer. But this detective wouldn't hear any of it.

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He refused to look into any tips or reanalyze any

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of the existing evidence. But a lot of it pointed

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straight to Casey McCullough.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I spent, you know, years just befuddled by

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the detective because, you know, you automatically assume that they

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know more than you know, because they've got the case file,

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and there must be I had there had to be

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something in there that was really pointing them away from him.

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Speaker 1: George didn't get his hands on the case file until

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years later, but by the time he'd read it, this

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detective decided to pay him a surprise visit, armed with

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all the original evidence. This turned out to be a

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perfect opportunity for George to ask Dennis why he was

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so focused on the wrong suspect.

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Speaker 5: And I'm not kidding you.

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Speaker 4: This guy, this detective snuck into a book signing of

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mine one time and these cut off daisy duke looking shorts,

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cut off flannel shirt. I mean, like, I'm not going

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to notice this dude coming in here. I pitch him

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the book because I didn't recognize him at this point.

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And then as I said, do you want to buy

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a book, He's like, He's like, no, I'm specially Agententis

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Simon was with the argisal State Relieves.

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Speaker 5: He pulls out his badge and I looked at him.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, Dennis, I haven't seen you in years,

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but you know, come on, and he.

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Speaker 5: Tells me I can't. I told him, I said, I

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don't understand something here. Why would he clean up the mess?

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Why wouldn't he just take a match in torch the place?

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Speaker 4: And he said, George, if you had a case file,

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you know exactly why this person did this thing. And

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I'm like, okay, well we have the case file now

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and it's even more incomprehensible.

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Speaker 1: This Dennis character sure does remind me of Lieutenant Jim

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Dangle from Reno nine one one. Can you picture it?

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Life imitates art, I guess Rebecca's case whirled around in

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George's mind for years, and all the while it had

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become a closed loop. He wrote articles about the case

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and about various theories, but law enforcement was holding all

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the information under lock and key. They held no press

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conferences and gave no updates. Fourteen years with no progress.

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When Rebecca's father tried to request a copy of her

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autopsy report, officials denied it, citing the case was still active.

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George kept writing articles, Websleuth's discussed the case to death,

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and by twenty eighteen, a woman named Catherine Townsend hoped

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to put even more eyes on this mystery by doing

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a podcast. Rebecca was murdered in this woman's hometown, so

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she traveled back there, lived in the community for six months,

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and did her own investigation.

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Speaker 9: I first heard about a podcast called Hellngon in late

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twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: This is Jen Bucholtz. She's a former US Army counterintelligence

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agent who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. She now teaches

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forensic science at American Military University and works as a

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cold case investigator for Colorado's El Paso County Sheriff's Office.

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Speaker 9: And it was my content editor at the university who

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we would go back and forth sometimes about new podcasts

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and cases, and sometimes I'd write about different cases and

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she's like, you really should listen to Helen. I think

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you're going to find that case really interesting. Maybe you

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want to write about it. And so, of course she

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was correct, and I binged it and George was featured

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in several of the episodes. So I thought, well, I'll

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reach out to this George guy. He clearly knows the

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case really well, and so, like, I very carefully crafted

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this email to him. Whatever I wrote, which I don't

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totally remember now caught his attention because he called me

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pretty much right away, and then we ended up on

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the phone for three hours and twenty two minutes, I believe,

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our first conversation, and so it was like, oh, yeah,

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we're going to work on this case.

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Speaker 5: I think, I don't know.

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Speaker 9: We had very similar mindset was the behaviors that this

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killer took and the importance of understanding those behaviors and

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what they meant about the relationship between the killer and victim.

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Very clear that the detective at the time had no

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idea about criminal profiling or behavioral analysis and it was

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really being overlooked. And that was like one of my

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key points in reaching out to George, and as you'll hear,

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he had the same thoughts through the years.

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Speaker 1: Jen Bucholtz spent years working as a private investigator before

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stepping into her current role in cold case investigations. Now

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embedded within a police department, she sees a sharp divide,

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maybe even a distrust, between law enforcement and civilian investigators.

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In many cases, police simply won't accept outside help. Again,

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Ego is a hell of a drug. Rebecca's father, doctor

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Larry Gould, learned that the hard way. He spent thousands

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on private investigators over the years, but law enforcement never

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seemed interested in what they uncovered. Here's doctor Gould.

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Speaker 10: The law enforcement officers that to me are truly the

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real professionals are the ones that reach out to the

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public and they ask for help. The ones that reach

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out and say that.

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Speaker 5: They don't use their ego.

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Speaker 10: They say, I'm the officer, I'm in charge of this case.

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Speaker 5: Help me.

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Speaker 10: Now, there's somebody I respect, and there's no reason to

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not be that way, especially nowadays, there's a lot of

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unsolved murders.

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Speaker 2: That the public can get involved with.

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Speaker 10: There's a lot of the public that loves to get

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involved with these types of cases because they feel sincerely

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like they can help and that they can offer something.

406
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Speaker 1: And this is where the Internet proves it's worth to

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some degree. Perhaps I can't believe I just said that.

408
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In case after case, it's not a detective who breathes

409
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new life into a forgotten file. It's a podcast, it's

410
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a subreddit. It's a web form or a Facebook group,

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or even a TikTok channel where some web sleuth, usually

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a middle aged woman, I might add, that has so

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much time on their hands and so much empathy in

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their heart that they have to do something with it,

415
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so they focus on their favorite hobby. They dig into

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parts of a cold case that no one ever seemed

417
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to be able to uncover, not even Lieutenant Jim Dank

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I mean, Dennis.

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Speaker 9: It's a lesson learned by us that can be passed

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on to other not just private investigators or citizens, but

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law enforcement agencies too, Like keep an eye on social

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media sites for your victim, see if any of your

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suspects are.

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Speaker 1: In there, Like I do it at work, because sometimes

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the killer does come back to the scene of the crime.

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Only in Rebecca's case, the scene was now virtual. By

427
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the fall of twenty eighteen, Rebecca Gould's case sat unsolved

428
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for nearly fourteen years. The crime scene had been cleaned,

429
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the man she was last seen with had quietly receded

430
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into the shadows, and the Arkansas State Police special agent

431
00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:36,319
was borderline obsessed with pinning the whole crime on the

432
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:42,079
wrong guy. But then something shifted. A podcast called Hell

433
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,680
and Gone started digging into the case. The show gave

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the public a voice, and it gave the story new

435
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,200
life online. One of the podcasts fans was a former

436
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:02,359
Army counter intelligence agent named Jen Bucholtz. Another was George Jared,

437
00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:06,279
the very reporter who had watched Rebecca's body be pulled

438
00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:10,519
from the embankment. When these two connected, they spent hours

439
00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:14,240
on the phone. Soon after, they created a Facebook group.

440
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,000
The plan was not just to rehash the case, but

441
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to solve it once and for all.

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Speaker 9: Well, me and George were the admins, and we set

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the group setting so.

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Speaker 2: That it's a public group. Anybody can find it, but.

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Speaker 9: You have to request to join because we always want

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to keep track of who's joining.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, one of our.

448
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Speaker 9: Goals, and I guess subconsciously one of our goals in

449
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the week in the group was to lure the killer

450
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in there or somebody who knew something.

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Speaker 1: The Facebook group grew quickly. At this point. Neither the

452
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police's case file nor Rebecca's autopsy had been made available

453
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to the public. Yet this meant that the host of

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the Hell and Gone podcast had to piece the story

455
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together using rumors and gossip from people in town. By

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the time Catherine Townsend aired the final episode of season one,

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the narrative had shifted away from small town gossip and

458
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toward a deeper, darker truth. This was never about random

459
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drifters or drug deals. This looked like a crime of

460
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,279
passion and a cleanup that took time and work.

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Speaker 5: So here's the thing about this case.

462
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Speaker 4: We don't have a definitive time of death for Rebecca.

463
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This is the working theory of the prosecutorial theory about

464
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what happened is on that Monday morning, Rebecca takes Casey

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to work because his father had borrowed Casey's truck the

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night before, Casey needed to ride, so she drops.

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Speaker 5: Him off at the Sonic that morning.

468
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Speaker 4: Then she goes back to his house to collect up

469
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all her things. She had a little Pomeranian dog, and

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she had her clothes, and she had brought two big

471
00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:04,880
suitcases because she had told her father and her sister Danielle,

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that this was going to be the last time that

473
00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:08,480
she came to Casey's house, and so she brought an

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00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,400
extra suitcase because she had some personal items over there

475
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at the house. And so it's during this timeframe that morning,

476
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,440
when she's collecting of all this stuff, that's when the

477
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,599
police and the prosecutors think that she was murdered. And

478
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,240
so I will say this, there is absolutely no proof

479
00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:29,160
of life on Monday morning.

480
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 5: There's none.

481
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:32,079
Speaker 4: And for years we were led to believe that there

482
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,000
was a video at a convenience store that she stopped

483
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,920
off and got a coffee and a breakfast sandwich, and

484
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,680
so we thought there was all this evidence, you know,

485
00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:43,000
that she was there. The problem is is that none

486
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,279
of that stuff was true, so there's no proof of

487
00:27:46,319 --> 00:27:49,640
life Monday morning, but that's the official story.

488
00:27:50,839 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: Just to fill in some gaps. The day Rebecca went missing,

489
00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:58,160
Casey's father had borrowed as truck, so he was carloss

490
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,640
and needed transportation to and from work. He worked at Sonic.

491
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,960
By the way, we know, Rebecca's plan was to quietly

492
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,480
packer things and dump his ass that day, but Casey

493
00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:14,920
was clueless about this or was he did he find out?

494
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,640
Was there a subsequent altercation. This is where things get

495
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,440
really suspicious and a little messy.

496
00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 4: So he asked a group of four friends, people that

497
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,240
he was friends with. They were going to go to

498
00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:31,400
the movies that night, and they we're going to go

499
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,480
see the movie Resident Evil too, and so he asked

500
00:28:35,599 --> 00:28:38,000
them if he could ride with them, and they were

501
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,000
all kind of surprised by it because he was kind

502
00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:42,200
of a recluse. He didn't like to hang out with anybody,

503
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,359
And so he went down to Batesville that night. They

504
00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:48,200
watched the movie, They go into some stores. He was

505
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:52,160
clearly trying to make himself available to cameras that were in,

506
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,839
you know, like they went to a Walmart to look

507
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:56,279
at Halloween decorations. And they went to some other places,

508
00:28:56,559 --> 00:28:57,880
and it was clear that he was trying to make

509
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,640
himself visible on these cameras. And then at one point

510
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,960
in the night, he gets a call, and during this call,

511
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,920
he used his friend's phone to make this call.

512
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 5: By the way, he didn't use his own phone. After

513
00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:13,279
he hangs up, he tells all four of these friends

514
00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:15,200
that Rebecca is missing.

515
00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:18,799
Speaker 9: He used his friend's phone to call his own voicemail,

516
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,839
so he didn't actually talk to anybody. He listened to

517
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,000
his messages, whatever they were, and then got off the

518
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,240
phone and told his friends that Rebecca's missing.

519
00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 5: Now here's the problem.

520
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 4: She wasn't reported missing until the next morning, at eight

521
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,480
thirty in the morning by her mother. The second part

522
00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:36,880
of it is all four friends, and all four of

523
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,200
their statements to police said that he was obsessed with her,

524
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,720
and I'm paraphrasing this, that he was obsessed with her,

525
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,880
and they were all shocked that he wasn't.

526
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,359
Speaker 5: Running out the door to go and find her. And

527
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,319
so what he did instead is he went to his

528
00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:53,440
friend's house, smoked some marijuana, played some video games, and

529
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,640
fell asleep on the couch.

530
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: Are you suspicious yet, fellow websleuth.

531
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:00,359
Speaker 2: She dropped you work and.

532
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,039
Speaker 8: Get a little past eight, a little past eight, and

533
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,680
I just remember saying bye and flying to each other

534
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,640
and wait, Ane.

535
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 7: That's the last time I saw that. Okay?

536
00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:11,799
Speaker 6: Did you have any contact with her by telephone?

537
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 11: No?

538
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 7: Sorry, I tried.

539
00:30:14,319 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 8: Have you talked with her since Monday morning at eight o'clock?

540
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:18,799
About the last time I talked to her? And you

541
00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:19,599
haven't seen her since?

542
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:20,319
Speaker 7: I haven't seen her?

543
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,319
Speaker 6: So did you play on the center before she went back?

544
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: Yes?

545
00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:27,839
Speaker 8: She was supposed to come back and pick me up

546
00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:30,119
from work to go pick up my truck from Matsville.

547
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,599
Speaker 6: And did she show up?

548
00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:32,119
Speaker 2: No, sir?

549
00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 6: What time she was she supposed to pick you up for?

550
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:39,680
And then you came back to Oxford at anytime?

551
00:30:40,759 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 12: Uh?

552
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,279
Speaker 6: Since you left there?

553
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:43,519
Speaker 2: Did you go back to.

554
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 6: Your house at any time that night?

555
00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:45,519
Speaker 7: No, sir.

556
00:30:46,119 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 6: Did you ever go back there to get some clothing

557
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,279
out of the sure Harris hands or anything like that?

558
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 8: No, sir, I never went back to the house that night.

559
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,279
What time did you leave Oxford? That house and come

560
00:30:58,319 --> 00:31:02,200
to work next morning? About seven thirty? You get to

561
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,839
work at eight? And how long did you stay at work?

562
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:08,960
I stayed there for about ten to fifteen minutes. I

563
00:31:10,079 --> 00:31:13,440
called Rebecca's mom to see if she had heard from Rebecca,

564
00:31:13,599 --> 00:31:15,799
because you know, I haven't yet, and she said she

565
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,440
sounded really worried and freaking out, And so I asked my.

566
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,279
Speaker 7: Manager Daniel, if I could go down.

567
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 8: To the house and see if she was there. Send

568
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,279
me what you find when you get to your house.

569
00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 12: I drive up and.

570
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 8: I see your car, so I'm thinking she's there and

571
00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:34,720
she's safe inside. And I walk in and I see

572
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,039
her dog, which which gives me a little bit more.

573
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 7: What's the way I'm looking for insurance?

574
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:42,799
Speaker 6: What's significant about the dogs being here?

575
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:45,839
Speaker 8: That if she's there, then she's Rebecca's got to be there,

576
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:47,039
because Rebecca goes no way.

577
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,759
Speaker 7: To got that dog. I walked in and checked our

578
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,920
room and then I call it our room because it is.

579
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: And wow, did you catch it? Tell me you caught

580
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,960
that we walked into r room. I call it our

581
00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:06,880
room because it is. That's what he said, don't need

582
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,519
to be so defensive there, buddy, you weren't questioning your

583
00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:12,880
relationship status.

584
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,279
Speaker 7: No sheets on the bed and nobody's in there.

585
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: And I thought it was very odd.

586
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 8: No sheets on the bed because she just washed them

587
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,400
the week earlier, and I would't say he washed them again.

588
00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:28,480
I looked to the whole house again, double backed in

589
00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:31,319
every room, and I didn't see anything, and I was.

590
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 4: Well appeared to me.

591
00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: I thought I was on the clock.

592
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:37,079
Speaker 7: Because I posted in. That thing doesn't work all the time.

593
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,680
And so I took off back towards signing cable.

594
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 6: Her car there, my car was there. Did you see

595
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,279
anything like her slipper or anything like that at the house.

596
00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:48,039
Speaker 7: Yes, I saw her pink slippers.

597
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: These are all clips from Casey's first interview with police.

598
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,799
He tells them that he never went back to the

599
00:32:54,839 --> 00:32:58,359
house that day, the day Rebecca went missing. It was

600
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,160
the next morning that he said he'd back home by

601
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,519
himself to search the trailer for clues.

602
00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:06,799
Speaker 4: One day, I was driving through Melbourne and I saw

603
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,160
him outside smoking a cigarette in the parking lot. And

604
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,240
this is probably eight or nine months after the murder,

605
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,680
and so I just pulled my truck in, got out,

606
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,720
and I just confronted him. I said, so tell me

607
00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:19,000
what happened. And he told me that he never went

608
00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:21,880
to the back to his house before he went with

609
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,319
the police, and so he lied. When we get the

610
00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:29,039
case file. Not only did he not notice that his

611
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,960
room and I'm not I think I'm exaggerating, it looked

612
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,279
like a tornado had gone through his room. I mean

613
00:33:35,319 --> 00:33:38,279
there was stuff broken everywhere. I mean it was a

614
00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:42,039
mirror off kilter, off the closet, there were bloody pillows

615
00:33:42,039 --> 00:33:45,519
and plain sight. He admitted in his first interview with

616
00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:48,880
the police that he did go to the washing machine,

617
00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:52,079
open it up, and it's full of bedding with blood

618
00:33:52,119 --> 00:33:54,440
all over it. The you know, like the what's that

619
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,799
thing the agitated There was bloody water in there, like

620
00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:02,400
the bleach dispenser. Thing was completely caked, caked with blood.

621
00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:06,279
And he just puts the lid down, gets in his

622
00:34:06,319 --> 00:34:08,719
truck and drives back to work like nothing happened.

623
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 6: Did you subsequently go back after your house with the deafity.

624
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,159
Speaker 7: I asked him, I said, do you just want to

625
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:16,519
follow me? And thought I was, And he just.

626
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:17,519
Speaker 2: Followed me all the way there.

627
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,679
Speaker 6: And when you get here the police, I take it

628
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,119
looked in your house.

629
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:22,559
Speaker 4: Yeah.

630
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,559
Speaker 7: See, I let him freely walk to the house. I

631
00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:28,039
showed him that her belongings were still there, and how

632
00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:29,800
it's very odd she really never ever.

633
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,039
Speaker 8: Lives without it and he walked into the back room,

634
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:41,039
checked under the mattress and found some blood and uh,

635
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:42,719
I really didn't know where it came from.

636
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 7: That's when I started getting really scared. Didn't know what

637
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:46,159
to think.

638
00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:49,199
Speaker 8: Then, after we checked the mattress, he turned around and

639
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,360
checked the washer. When we checked the washer, we saw

640
00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:53,800
just a little bit of film.

641
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,159
Speaker 2: On something red. We didn't know if it was.

642
00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 8: Blood or not, but we noticed, and we tried to

643
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,320
put two and two together that you know, she's around

644
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,800
the bed this.

645
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,519
Speaker 6: Case, and what do you think has happened to Rebecca.

646
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:07,920
I think she was killed.

647
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 2: I don't know who did it.

648
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,679
Speaker 9: So Monday night is when he tells his friend she's

649
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,960
missing and whatever. So Tuesday morning, he had spent the

650
00:35:18,039 --> 00:35:20,719
night at his friend's house, he hadn't gone home. Tuesday morning,

651
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,760
goes to work for a shift at Sonic. Well, for

652
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,039
some reason, he didn't have his Sonic shirt even though

653
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:27,719
he worked the day prior. So his boss is like,

654
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,360
you got to go home and get a Sonic shirt.

655
00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:32,119
You got to be in uniform. So he was forced

656
00:35:32,119 --> 00:35:35,000
to go home Tuesday morning to his residence and he

657
00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:37,480
walks in. You know, her car's there, her purse, her dog,

658
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,119
the mattress is flipped, there's bloody sheets in the washer,

659
00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:44,079
all this stuff, i mean, broken ash trays, broken mirrors,

660
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,360
and he grabs a shirt and just goes back to work,

661
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,559
and then later on said he didn't notice that anything,

662
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,280
you know, was a miss which is impossible. I mean,

663
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,960
you can't. After we've got the crime scene photos, you're like, yeah,

664
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,559
there's no way you could, Like, how would you go

665
00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:00,639
in your room? And his bed was moved to cover

666
00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:03,480
a big bloodstain on the carpet, Like, you can't tell

667
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,280
me you didn't noise your beds in a different position

668
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,480
in the room, and it's been stripped and all this stuff.

669
00:36:08,119 --> 00:36:10,159
You already said the night prior she's missing, and you

670
00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:13,320
go home to this mess. Why aren't you immediately calling police?

671
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: You know, if the lies, the changing timeline, and Casey's

672
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,119
strange behavior weren't bad enough, just wait, it gets worse.

673
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,159
Speaker 4: Well, it's even more suspicious because he confessed to hurting her.

674
00:36:27,199 --> 00:36:31,599
He in let's see April of twy ten or twenty eleven,

675
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,880
they're not quite sure what year. And so he was

676
00:36:35,199 --> 00:36:39,679
working on like these towers, he was climbing towers and

677
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,679
he was one night he and two other people were

678
00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:47,119
in a hotel room. One of them is Tad Hickerson,

679
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,480
and he signed us one affidavit to this. But they're

680
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,039
all in a hotel room, they're drinking. He starts crying

681
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,159
and tells them that he hurt Rebecca, that he had

682
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,760
hit her with some type of a wooden object, that

683
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,239
he had hurt her. And they were, of course, they

684
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,880
were thought he was just full of that. They're like, well,

685
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,360
the police have cleared you, you know, how could this

686
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,119
be possible? And he said that the reason that he

687
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:16,239
was getting away with it was because their timeline was off.

688
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,480
But they couldn't figure that out. So the next day

689
00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:22,599
Tad still thinks, you know, he was just drunk and

690
00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:25,880
crying and feeling guilty and all this other stuff. Well,

691
00:37:26,039 --> 00:37:29,719
now they're sober, and so Tad asked Casey, he said,

692
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,000
so tell me what happened. And he said that she

693
00:37:33,199 --> 00:37:38,039
said something to him, like said something like mockingly to him,

694
00:37:38,079 --> 00:37:40,119
like laughed at him or scoffed at him, and he

695
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:44,280
just flew into a rage, hit her twice. He said,

696
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,639
he threw the wooden object, which you know, we believe

697
00:37:46,639 --> 00:37:49,400
could be a piano leg. That's you know, obviously missing,

698
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:52,199
that he threw it into the White River, and that

699
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,760
he said, well, what mistake did you make? And he

700
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:55,719
said cleaning up the.

701
00:37:55,679 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: Mess by when exactly was the evidence cleaned from the teler?

702
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,639
According to police, Rebecca was killed sometime on Monday, September eighteenth,

703
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,039
after she dropped Casey off at work, and Casey had

704
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:13,400
an alibi for that time period. He was working at

705
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,559
Sonic all day then was seen on camera hanging out

706
00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:18,920
with friends in the evening.

707
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 9: So because of that, Casey was cleared because they assumed

708
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,280
she was alive Monday morning and he was accounted for

709
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,119
at work during the hours that they thought she was killed.

710
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,280
So he, I mean, Dennis Simon's the detective who was

711
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,000
on it for fourteen years, had watched it. He did

712
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,760
publicly clear him, which is always a mistake. You don't

713
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,119
clear anybody, but he did publicly clear Casey. So Casey

714
00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:48,039
fell off the radar for most people. I think from

715
00:38:48,039 --> 00:38:49,199
that point forward.

716
00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: It was open and shut. Sherlock and Daisy Dukes had

717
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,239
nailed the timeline, or did he? Jenn and George certainly

718
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,599
didn't think so. They think Rebecca may have been killed

719
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,760
much earlier, perhaps that morning, giving someone plenty of time

720
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,159
to erase what couldn't be explained, and that changed everything.

721
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,760
If the murder didn't happen when police thought it did,

722
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:21,119
then Casey's alibi wasn't air tight. So fast forward to

723
00:39:21,159 --> 00:39:24,559
the year twenty nineteen, when fans of the Hell and

724
00:39:24,679 --> 00:39:28,360
Gone podcast are in a frenzy, obsessively discussing all these

725
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:34,320
suspicions day and night. Y'all are relentless. I'll tell you well,

726
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,639
all this chit chat attracts attention to anyone who's interested.

727
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,480
And also they're cats. Do I know my audience or

728
00:39:41,519 --> 00:39:45,000
do I know my audience? The Facebook forum continues to

729
00:39:45,079 --> 00:39:49,679
grow and grow, and all of a sudden, a new

730
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,719
name starts leaving comments in the forum. A guy by

731
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,920
the name of William Miller, and.

732
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 4: He was one of the first people to join our

733
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,880
Facebook page when we created in October of twenty nineteen.

734
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,159
And there's a girl on our crowdsourcing team who's really

735
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:09,599
good at like genealogy, you know, like she's good at

736
00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:12,559
putting family trees together. And as soon as he joined

737
00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:16,000
our page, and her name is Miranda, and she immediately

738
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:18,800
told us, she said, Hey, this guy's a first cousin

739
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,159
of cases, and we're like, okay, we didn't think anything

740
00:40:22,159 --> 00:40:24,199
of it because he lived in the Philippines, and I

741
00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:26,159
think Jen had done a little research on him and

742
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,159
figured out pretty quickly that he lived in Ramsas Past Texas,

743
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:30,920
you know, so we didn't think anything of it. And

744
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,760
he was, you know, postulating theories on how she died,

745
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,840
and he was very active on the page, and we

746
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,480
just thought he was a mole for the family, you know,

747
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:42,280
because what happened previously, you know, when Helen Gon came out,

748
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,760
is these Facebook pages formed and a bunch of family

749
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,280
members got on there and people would get into these

750
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,079
huge fights and they would say all this stuff, and

751
00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:50,840
so we just thought, okay, they don't want to join

752
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,079
and get into these you know, brew ha haas, and

753
00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:56,039
so they're just going to send in this first cousin.

754
00:40:56,119 --> 00:40:58,199
You know, he's kind of you know, kind of a

755
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,599
weirdo anyway. You can just tell that from his messages

756
00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:03,920
and stuff like that. But he's living in the Philippines,

757
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,719
he's working on ol rigs all over the world, you know,

758
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,119
he flies all over the place.

759
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 5: He's a very world traveler.

760
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,039
Speaker 4: And he made a lot of money too, and then

761
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,880
I this may be a coincidence, but I just can't

762
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,599
believe that it's a coincidence. Casey's birthday is January sixteenth,

763
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,960
So on January sixteenth of twenty twenty, right before the

764
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:31,599
pandemic starts, William Miller starts sending private dms to Jen. Now,

765
00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:33,440
he had sent me one or two, but I never

766
00:41:33,519 --> 00:41:35,920
responded because I mean, he was Casey's first cousin, so

767
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,599
I'm just like, no, you know who cares. Of course,

768
00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:41,320
Jen is a much more thorough investigator than I am,

769
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,360
so she started responding to him and asking him questions.

770
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: At first, William Miller seemed like any other dedicated member

771
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,119
of the group, curious, passionate, maybe a little too invested.

772
00:41:55,199 --> 00:41:58,239
But as Jen talked to him, the tone shifted. The

773
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:03,239
conversations were often law back and forth dialogues. Sometimes William

774
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,960
rambled and didn't make much sense. In one message, she

775
00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:10,440
claimed he was being targeted by other group members trying

776
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,960
to stir up drama. I am being attacked by a

777
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,400
few people. They took picks and sent them to Dennis,

778
00:42:18,679 --> 00:42:20,800
and he was one of them to blow up on me.

779
00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:25,320
He got more paranoid, even defensive, at one point, he wrote,

780
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,320
now he talks shit to me. I'm sorry to talk

781
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,519
like that, but about to block the guy if he

782
00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:35,960
keep it up. He need to be a grammar Nazi here.

783
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,079
But anybody know English these days? Anyway, this guy William

784
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,760
seemed like he wanted to be helpful. He wanted to

785
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,880
be part of the team. He insisted, Sorry, if I

786
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,159
sound like I am on Casey's side, maybe I come

787
00:42:51,199 --> 00:42:53,119
across that way, but am not.

788
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:55,039
Speaker 5: But behind the.

789
00:42:55,039 --> 00:42:59,519
Speaker 1: Scenes, Jen was already putting the pieces together. William wasn't

790
00:42:59,559 --> 00:43:04,000
just engageing with the case. He was circling it, fixating

791
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:10,360
on details like gloves, DNA and forensics. No fingerprints, no DNA.

792
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,000
First thing pops in my head is did he have gloves?

793
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,639
John's goal was to find out why William was so

794
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,159
interested in this case, or at least to see what

795
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,400
kind of answer he would give. They knew he was

796
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,440
Casey's cousin, and they knew he was being evasive about it.

797
00:43:30,559 --> 00:43:36,679
Speaker 4: But why and he was why he wouldn't He wouldn't

798
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,400
tell her, like what was the relationship or to the case,

799
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,719
like why was he interested in it? And he just

800
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,760
said podcasts And then she asked him what states he'd

801
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,119
been to, and he said fifty of them or something

802
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:49,519
like that, and her and I would talk about him

803
00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:53,440
some early on, and then the pandemic hits, and then

804
00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:57,559
in September we found out something very interesting. We did

805
00:43:57,599 --> 00:44:01,320
not know that he was in town the weekend of

806
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,440
the of this hell thing happening. We didn't We never

807
00:44:03,519 --> 00:44:03,880
knew that.

808
00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: Even more suspicious, they didn't know that William's mother, Linda

809
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,719
and his brother Jeremy had actually been living in the

810
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,320
area at the time of the murder.

811
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 9: Like the family kept that way under wraps, which is

812
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,320
so telling. Even Casey and his family never divulged that publicly.

813
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,440
So I'm like, why are you hiding that?

814
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,039
Speaker 1: Jen and George both saw the signs William Miller was

815
00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:33,320
quickly moving up their list of suspects.

816
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 4: Me and Jenn are talking one day and were just like,

817
00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:40,119
this guy could be involved, Like as soon as we

818
00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:44,639
found out that he was there, because our analysis had

819
00:44:44,679 --> 00:44:47,960
always pointed towards a male member of the McCullough family.

820
00:44:48,199 --> 00:44:51,400
His name is William Miller, but he's as much McCullough

821
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,679
as the mcculloughs are. He fit the profile, and it

822
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,119
was even more interesting with him because he immediately left.

823
00:44:58,559 --> 00:45:02,159
It's like your cousin's girlfriend vanishes and you don't stick

824
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:03,440
around for a day or two to try to help

825
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,679
find her. Of course, at this point we knew Casey

826
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,880
hadn't been trying to find her. And then I'll never

827
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,760
forget this. We kept digging on him, and so we're

828
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,800
trying to put this together all through October of twenty twenty,

829
00:45:16,079 --> 00:45:17,760
and little did we know that the police were on

830
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,079
the same track because we weren't. We weren't communicating to

831
00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:23,599
them when we were doing at this point, and they

832
00:45:23,639 --> 00:45:25,440
weren't communicating obviously with us.

833
00:45:26,199 --> 00:45:29,679
Speaker 1: A new detective had been handling the investigation, and it

834
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:32,280
took him only eight months to get his site set

835
00:45:32,639 --> 00:45:36,760
on William Miller. This detective wanted to get William in

836
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,119
an interview room, but knowing that William lived overseas, he

837
00:45:41,199 --> 00:45:44,320
called his mother Linda, just so you know they're going

838
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:49,440
to be referring to William as Billy by the way.

839
00:45:50,679 --> 00:46:01,119
Speaker 13: Hello, Hello, hey Linda, how are you doing.

840
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 5: Hanging in there? I didn't know you still worked?

841
00:46:03,079 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: You still working?

842
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah?

843
00:46:06,199 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 7: I take care of a little lady that.

844
00:46:08,559 --> 00:46:15,559
Speaker 13: Has alzheimer, Okay, and that difficult Oh yeah, I can imagine.

845
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:21,280
I can imagine I wanted to reach out to you.

846
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,280
You know, I'm going through this case file, and the

847
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,519
I guess the opinion of the Arkansas State Police is

848
00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:32,360
that they're basically.

849
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:36,119
Speaker 5: Wanting everybody reinterviewed. So I'm going.

850
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 13: Back and I'm going through, you know, all of the

851
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,039
documents and trying to trying to accomplish that.

852
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 14: And I know that you and Jeremy and Billy.

853
00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:50,039
Speaker 13: Were all interviewed back back in two thousand and four,

854
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,639
and you know, I just wanted to reach out to

855
00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:58,960
you guys and see what of course I get. You know,

856
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,719
Billy's in the Philippine means I probably won't be able

857
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,079
to talk to him for I don't know if he's

858
00:47:04,119 --> 00:47:07,880
planning on coming back anytime soon or do you know,

859
00:47:08,119 --> 00:47:08,599
I don't know.

860
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 7: Oh, you don't know.

861
00:47:11,079 --> 00:47:13,559
Speaker 6: Things have been crazy with the COVID.

862
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,679
Speaker 14: Right and you have no idea when Billy might be

863
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:18,840
returning to the States.

864
00:47:21,079 --> 00:47:24,119
Speaker 6: Not right now, not when it's all the COVID stuff.

865
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,519
Speaker 13: So the last the last time Billy made it home

866
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:29,960
was sometime last year.

867
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:33,159
Speaker 6: I don't know.

868
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,679
Speaker 5: I mean, I know he does that, for I know

869
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:39,480
he does that.

870
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,039
Speaker 4: I think you every year.

871
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:48,079
Speaker 13: Yeah, okay, well if you would, Linda, get with Jeremy

872
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:55,719
and see if there's one day the same time. Yeah, awesome,

873
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,800
Well thanks Linda, Yeah right, no problem, we have a

874
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:04,880
good day to go back. That was Linda Miller, October

875
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,440
twenty first, twenty twenty.

876
00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:15,559
Speaker 14: Should be noted that Billy Miller is currently in Oregon.

877
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,719
He returned from the Philippines approximately a little over a

878
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:21,679
week ago.

879
00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: It's entirely possible that William or Bill or Billy was

880
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,760
sitting right next to his mother listening to her lie

881
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,159
to the detective about his whereabouts during this call. Just

882
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:38,079
a little bit later, probably after having a team meeting

883
00:48:38,119 --> 00:48:41,599
with her sons, Linda called the detective back.

884
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:47,159
Speaker 6: Hello Miller, Hey, Linda, how are you pretty good?

885
00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:49,559
Speaker 3: I think we got everybody coortinated?

886
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:51,119
Speaker 5: Where you being it?

887
00:48:51,159 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 8: All?

888
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:51,599
Speaker 6: Three?

889
00:48:51,599 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 10: Other that?

890
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 6: Whe Oh really?

891
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 12: Yeah?

892
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 5: Well, when's when's Billy coming back in?

893
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,639
Speaker 15: He'll be here November seventh.

894
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 6: That's when we.

895
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 13: Want to have our meeting on you, okay, November the seventh.

896
00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: Linda Miller and her two sons believed they were heading

897
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,519
into just another round of questioning. What they didn't realize

898
00:49:21,559 --> 00:49:25,440
was that every word they spoke would be used to

899
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:58,519
dismantle the lie they'd been upholding for sixteen long years.

900
00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:04,960
By the fall of twenty twenty, almost exactly sixteen years

901
00:50:05,039 --> 00:50:09,199
after her murder, there was a Facebook group rife with

902
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,440
theories on Rebecca Gould's case. One of the people offering

903
00:50:13,559 --> 00:50:17,719
up ideas was a man named William Miller. Jen Bucholtz

904
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,000
and George Jared, the two investigators who had taken a

905
00:50:21,039 --> 00:50:25,719
personal interest in Rebecca's story, realized pretty quickly that William

906
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:30,360
was Casey mcculla's first cousin. At first, they thought that

907
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,880
McCullough family had sent him in as a spy, someone

908
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,960
who could figure out just how much the public knew.

909
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,280
But the more that William talked, the higher he moved

910
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:46,599
up their suspect list. Coincidentally, Arkansas State Police were coming

911
00:50:46,639 --> 00:50:51,599
to the same conclusion in parallel. On November seventh, twenty twenty,

912
00:50:51,679 --> 00:50:55,880
detectives finally got William into an interview room. His mother

913
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,079
and brother sat in the room next door.

914
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,199
Speaker 12: First, let me tell you this is called a non

915
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:03,480
custodial interview.

916
00:51:03,559 --> 00:51:06,079
Speaker 2: Okay, you probably never heard.

917
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 3: Of such a thing, but what that means is you came.

918
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: Up here voluntarily. You're not being detained. You're free to

919
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:15,719
go at any time. That door is not locked.

920
00:51:16,559 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 6: You know.

921
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 12: I want to tell you when I told the police

922
00:51:19,199 --> 00:51:19,920
went down into.

923
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 16: Texas when they came and stuff, and I mean to

924
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,039
be honest with you and truthful with you.

925
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 2: Call everything. You know, maybe I saw something that maybe

926
00:51:30,199 --> 00:51:33,440
a key factor in something there and all of stuff. Right, right,

927
00:51:33,519 --> 00:51:35,000
So you're an oil field worker.

928
00:51:35,119 --> 00:51:37,679
Speaker 15: I've been been working in an oil field for twenty

929
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:42,639
eight three years. I remember moving mom up there and

930
00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:47,440
then she was moved into that little house.

931
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,679
Speaker 2: I was a couple of miles down the road from

932
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:52,440
grandfather's property.

933
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean yeah, so you're right that was about

934
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,639
your mom's house was about two three miles from the

935
00:52:00,199 --> 00:52:02,000
the trailer where this happened.

936
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,199
Speaker 2: Okay, So so I've been.

937
00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 12: In that home and all that stuff, and prior to

938
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:10,159
the homicide.

939
00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:13,119
Speaker 3: Yes, how many times had you been in that trailer?

940
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 2: Do you think? Maybe two?

941
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 7: Three times?

942
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 2: Maybe two or three times? Two or three times and stuff?

943
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,639
Speaker 3: So she was Rebecca was killed in September of before.

944
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,159
When was the last time you were in that trailer?

945
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: You think it was the way before that? Months?

946
00:52:30,679 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, William goes on to explain that back in September

947
00:52:35,039 --> 00:52:37,800
of two thousand and four, his mother asked him to

948
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:42,239
help her move to Texas with William's younger brother, so

949
00:52:42,639 --> 00:52:45,880
he drove up to Arkansas and arrived on Sunday, the

950
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,280
same day Rebecca had gotten into town.

951
00:52:49,119 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 2: So in the.

952
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,519
Speaker 16: Information that was provided to Texas, you know four, you

953
00:52:54,599 --> 00:52:57,119
said that whenever you showed up in Melbourne, that you

954
00:52:57,199 --> 00:52:59,760
went and visited family in the small town.

955
00:53:00,159 --> 00:53:01,679
Speaker 2: So that made it sound.

956
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 16: Like that you were with your mom and that you

957
00:53:04,119 --> 00:53:05,760
visited family in the small town.

958
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 2: So do you remember.

959
00:53:07,519 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 16: Going to the grandparents' house on Sunday, because that's what

960
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:11,760
you told investigators in O.

961
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:12,159
Speaker 5: Four.

962
00:53:15,039 --> 00:53:17,559
Speaker 2: I don't, I can't remember and all that stuff.

963
00:53:17,639 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, do you think that probably if you if you

964
00:53:21,519 --> 00:53:22,039
said it No.

965
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,599
Speaker 2: Four, that that would probably be more accurate.

966
00:53:24,639 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 15: There probably be more angry because it was set in

967
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:28,239
went and then and then.

968
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 2: Because I know that when I came up, I remember

969
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,559
going and asking Casey if you can give me a

970
00:53:36,599 --> 00:53:38,480
hand helping me.

971
00:53:38,519 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 16: Move, Help help me mom moved, help mom moved the

972
00:53:41,079 --> 00:53:42,199
stuff into the house.

973
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 2: And he was like, Hey, I'm too busy.

974
00:53:44,119 --> 00:53:47,599
Speaker 3: Is that whenever you showed up to Casey's trailer on Sunday.

975
00:53:48,159 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 12: No, okay, Well when did you have that conversation when

976
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:53,480
mom moved under?

977
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,639
Speaker 2: Three or four months before? Okay?

978
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 1: William claimed that this interact shoudn't happened months before. But

979
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,320
now that we have Casey's original interview from September of

980
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,320
two thousand and four, we can look back and see

981
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,880
that Casey told police something different.

982
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 6: Your cousin, what's his name?

983
00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:14,639
Speaker 2: His name is Billy Little.

984
00:54:14,679 --> 00:54:17,519
Speaker 7: We call him a little Billy and it's Billy Miller.

985
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 2: What were to Billy live it?

986
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,559
Speaker 7: He lives in Texas, and I'm not for sure where.

987
00:54:22,679 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 2: What was he doing up here?

988
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:25,159
Speaker 6: He was coming up.

989
00:54:25,079 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 7: Here to move his mom and his brother back to Texas.

990
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 6: So has he already gone back?

991
00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 2: You know, Yes, he's already gone.

992
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,760
Speaker 7: I'm pretty sure, okay.

993
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 8: And so I guess he came up and spoke with

994
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,760
you gets a short period of time that night.

995
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 6: Yes, that would be Sunday evening. Okay, So how long

996
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:47,880
did he say that?

997
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 2: Ten fifteen min tops?

998
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 7: We just really talked about all the times and stuff.

999
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 6: Did you come into your house?

1000
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,679
Speaker 7: No, sir, he stayed outside.

1001
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:57,199
Speaker 2: I was outside.

1002
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,079
Speaker 7: He never came in the house. But BacT I was

1003
00:54:59,079 --> 00:55:01,280
on the front porch. He saw her back on the.

1004
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 6: Did he know that you and Rebecca dated and past?

1005
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:06,159
Speaker 2: Yes?

1006
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 6: Did you know Joe were living together?

1007
00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 7: He knew that she visited on the weekends.

1008
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:17,119
Speaker 1: He say, remember, Rebecca arrived at mccullus trailer on Saturday,

1009
00:55:17,159 --> 00:55:21,559
September eighteenth. The police originally thought she was alive on

1010
00:55:21,639 --> 00:55:25,360
Monday morning. Jen and George think she was actually killed

1011
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,320
before that, late Saturday night or maybe sometime on Sunday.

1012
00:55:31,039 --> 00:55:33,199
Speaker 5: There's a problem though, with this part of the story too.

1013
00:55:34,199 --> 00:55:35,239
Here's the problem.

1014
00:55:35,639 --> 00:55:38,679
Speaker 4: So this was what Casey told people in you know,

1015
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,559
when he was interviewed the police, and then William kind

1016
00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:43,920
of told a similar story that he just pulled.

1017
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,559
Speaker 5: Up into the driveway and you know that was it.

1018
00:55:46,039 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 4: Well, a couple of weeks after their statements are taken,

1019
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,719
Casey's asked whose DNA could possibly be in the house,

1020
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,960
and he gives a list of people whose DNA could

1021
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,400
be in the house. He lists William and Jeremy, and

1022
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,880
besides of them, there's sua meeting Sunday night next to

1023
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:05,440
each of them. Well, if you never got out of

1024
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:07,599
his car, how could his DNA be in the house.

1025
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 17: Obviously, I can't talk a lot about the evidence in

1026
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:18,760
the investigation, you know, it's an ongoing investigation investigation, but

1027
00:56:20,199 --> 00:56:22,079
I can assure you that.

1028
00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 18: There are items of evidence that there should be no

1029
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:32,599
reason your DNA should be on it, you.

1030
00:56:32,559 --> 00:56:33,159
Speaker 6: Know what I mean.

1031
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 12: We believe investigators, with the people that had worked this,

1032
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:44,159
we believe that we have the suspects DNA on a

1033
00:56:44,159 --> 00:56:46,480
piece of evidence that.

1034
00:56:46,519 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 16: Is very specific and very unique, and nobody else's DNA

1035
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,960
should be on it. So that's why I'm asking. There's

1036
00:56:54,960 --> 00:57:01,519
a number of people that have provided DNA. Volunteer, would

1037
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:04,159
you be willing to provide your DNA?

1038
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 3: It would be a cheek swab.

1039
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,280
Speaker 2: I don't want to take blood or what it is.

1040
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:10,880
If I mean in that house and all.

1041
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:12,639
Speaker 3: That stuff, my DNA would be in there.

1042
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 12: You know, if if you don't feel comfortable doing it,

1043
00:57:15,039 --> 00:57:15,760
I'm not gonna.

1044
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna.

1045
00:57:16,719 --> 00:57:18,599
Speaker 3: Push you or try to put any pressure on you.

1046
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,199
It's not ask for all that stuff.

1047
00:57:21,199 --> 00:57:23,599
Speaker 2: But you know, yeah, if.

1048
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:24,199
Speaker 3: You're that's fine.

1049
00:57:24,719 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 2: He's just to me, it's just you know, yeah, my

1050
00:57:27,639 --> 00:57:28,519
he is going to be in.

1051
00:57:28,599 --> 00:57:32,519
Speaker 1: There a lot of stuff, right, Okay, Since he was

1052
00:57:32,559 --> 00:57:35,440
so willing to give up his DNA, A polygraph would

1053
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:36,119
be no problem.

1054
00:57:36,559 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 16: Right, Like I was talking before about polygraphs, you know,

1055
00:57:40,679 --> 00:57:45,079
almost all of them becaulors have been polygraphed.

1056
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:51,039
Speaker 2: A number of other people hadn't been. You know, that's

1057
00:57:51,119 --> 00:57:53,519
one that's that's a tool that we like to use

1058
00:57:53,719 --> 00:57:55,039
to you know, it kind of gives us.

1059
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,199
Speaker 3: A pretty good indication of somebody who's lying or telling

1060
00:57:58,159 --> 00:57:58,559
the truth.

1061
00:57:58,639 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 12: Yeah stuff, yeah, yeah, I mean, would you be okay

1062
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:03,480
with taking a polygraph?

1063
00:58:03,559 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 2: I'll just ask you now, I don't know, have a problem,

1064
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:06,559
know that you don't have that finale?

1065
00:58:06,679 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 3: You want to go to Arkansas and take one?

1066
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 2: Now, I'll tell you what. Let me holler.

1067
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 16: I'll call a I'll call the sergeant up here to

1068
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,239
see they may have a polygrapher in town.

1069
00:58:17,719 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's a shot in the dark, but.

1070
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:23,719
Speaker 1: Actually it was the furthest thing from a shot in

1071
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,519
the dark. This detective had his polygrapher locked and loaded.

1072
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,079
Speaker 2: Right, And so we're going to view a great do

1073
00:58:33,159 --> 00:58:34,039
you tell all the questions?

1074
00:58:34,079 --> 00:58:35,519
Speaker 6: We're going to be on the exam, We're going to

1075
00:58:35,559 --> 00:58:37,320
administer the test. We're going to give you the test.

1076
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 19: They'll be done in several phases that want to value

1077
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:40,960
eight the exam results.

1078
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:42,559
Speaker 2: So I'll tell you how you did before you leave today?

1079
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,519
Speaker 6: Okay, whether you want to lay.

1080
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 19: Want to know if you cause the death of we're

1081
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,000
back at school, Well, how would you answer that question?

1082
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 12: I would I answer that yes that you know, how

1083
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:58,920
can you do something when you're in another notation?

1084
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:00,719
Speaker 2: Okay? Perfect?

1085
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,199
Speaker 19: So if they were asking that on the example, would your.

1086
00:59:04,159 --> 00:59:07,519
Speaker 12: Answer to you no, okay, not perfect? And are you

1087
00:59:08,039 --> 00:59:09,360
half hundred percent positive?

1088
00:59:09,519 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 2: Yes? Perfect?

1089
00:59:10,679 --> 00:59:11,559
Speaker 5: You know you're not going to have a.

1090
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,039
Speaker 19: Problem passive test if you know, if you didn't do it,

1091
00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:16,039
you didn't do it, and then it was supposed to

1092
00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:18,679
the process and that's that's that's what you want to know, right.

1093
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: William sat like a statue in his chair for the

1094
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,920
duration of the test, answering yes and no questions. Confidently

1095
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:29,960
when it was over he didn't have to wait very

1096
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,079
long to get his results.

1097
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:32,639
Speaker 2: Now, I think you did.

1098
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 19: I don't know if you're many okay, okay. So the

1099
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,000
res also the example of deception indicated. Right, So those

1100
00:59:40,039 --> 00:59:43,599
two the questions that did you you know what that

1101
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:45,760
cause you failed the test?

1102
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:46,559
Speaker 2: I have the test?

1103
00:59:46,599 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 12: Yes, yes, and so my heart he felt like he

1104
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:50,639
was just beating out of my chest.

1105
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, we talked about your DNA being at.

1106
00:59:54,719 --> 00:59:58,239
Speaker 18: The crime scene, and you tried to give an explanation

1107
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,599
as to why you're doing it would be at the

1108
01:00:00,639 --> 01:00:02,360
crime scene because your mom.

1109
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 11: Gave claude furniture, furniture stuff and betting, and you even

1110
01:00:07,559 --> 01:00:10,639
you even said that it would be reasonable for your

1111
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,480
DNA to be on the betting, which is absolutely sir.

1112
01:00:15,039 --> 01:00:17,239
Speaker 2: No, I didn't say that, Okay.

1113
01:00:17,039 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 3: I just said that mom gives furniture and all that stuff.

1114
01:00:20,239 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 6: Okay, all right.

1115
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 18: This is a wash cloth that was under the bed

1116
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,920
that the killer used to clean up. It was watered

1117
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,360
up in a ball. Okay, we've got we've got the

1118
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,719
killer's DNA on that wash cloth.

1119
01:00:36,039 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 15: Okay, would there be any reason for your DNA?

1120
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,079
Speaker 2: It shouldn't be, shouldn't mail there?

1121
01:00:47,239 --> 01:00:50,519
Speaker 1: Are you ready to have your mind blown? The detective

1122
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:56,840
is lying, as DNA was not on the washcloth. This

1123
01:00:57,239 --> 01:00:59,599
is just one of the tools in a seasoned detective's

1124
01:00:59,679 --> 01:01:03,599
tool helt that's used to get a reaction, possibly a confession,

1125
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,880
out of a suspect when there's little loss to go on.

1126
01:01:08,159 --> 01:01:10,719
They were baiting him.

1127
01:01:11,159 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 5: He got tricked and it was a gutsy move. I'll

1128
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,320
give Mike Neil credit. He got tricked.

1129
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 4: He got tricked into thinking that his DNA was on

1130
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,840
a rag that they had found they were going to

1131
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,400
do some DNA testing, and then he also got tricked

1132
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:30,119
into thinking that Rebecca's DNA. What Mike did is he

1133
01:01:30,119 --> 01:01:33,360
went and found the truck, the actual truck that William

1134
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,039
Miller owned in two thousand and four. It was somewhere

1135
01:01:36,079 --> 01:01:38,440
in South Texas. He sent the Texas Rangers down there

1136
01:01:38,559 --> 01:01:41,360
to take pictures of it. And so Mike has a folder.

1137
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,000
And this is after William has failed the polygraph test

1138
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,239
during his interview, and he comes in. He says, well,

1139
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,000
I've got to share something with you, and he pulls

1140
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:51,280
out these pictures of this truck.

1141
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,119
Speaker 3: That truck looks familiar.

1142
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's your truck.

1143
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:02,519
Speaker 3: YEA biological billy lasts for.

1144
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 16: Decades, blood, skin cells, all kinds of stuff.

1145
01:02:10,119 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 2: Okay, all right.

1146
01:02:11,239 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 3: That was a really bloody crime scene.

1147
01:02:13,679 --> 01:02:15,039
Speaker 2: What happened.

1148
01:02:15,719 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 12: You got blood on the side of your shoe.

1149
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 16: We got Rebecca's DNA next to the gas pedal in

1150
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:31,760
your truck, no question about it.

1151
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:33,599
Speaker 2: Her DNA's in your truck.

1152
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:35,679
Speaker 3: So What you have to do is you have to

1153
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,599
explain to me how that's possible.

1154
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:40,239
Speaker 2: If you didn't kill.

1155
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 20: Her, you know who did, and if you know who did,

1156
01:02:44,119 --> 01:02:47,920
if you're covered for casey. Dude, I'm telling you, you

1157
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:50,760
have got to come forward right now with what you know.

1158
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,559
Speaker 4: And William immediately knows it's his old truck, and he goes,

1159
01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:56,559
we're going to get this test out and whoever killed

1160
01:02:56,599 --> 01:02:57,800
her is on the track.

1161
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,159
Speaker 5: Neither one of those things was true.

1162
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:06,519
Speaker 1: But it was enough to scare William into confessing. Still

1163
01:03:06,519 --> 01:03:07,360
want to be a detective.

1164
01:03:08,079 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 2: We know what you did, we know how it went down.

1165
01:03:12,679 --> 01:03:15,679
Speaker 12: We've got her blood in your in your floorboard.

1166
01:03:16,199 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 2: You tried to clean up mess that you could.

1167
01:03:18,559 --> 01:03:22,039
Speaker 18: Billy, don't drag your mom through this anymore.

1168
01:03:22,239 --> 01:03:24,559
Speaker 2: Don't drag your brother through this anymore.

1169
01:03:25,199 --> 01:03:28,159
Speaker 3: Give give the family some peace.

1170
01:03:29,079 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 2: It was a freak deal man.

1171
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 3: You did not mean to killer.

1172
01:03:34,599 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 2: It happens.

1173
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:41,559
Speaker 18: It should have never happened, but it did. Okay, So

1174
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:45,679
tell me, Billy, just tell me, tell me what you did,

1175
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:47,559
how it happened.

1176
01:03:47,639 --> 01:03:51,199
Speaker 2: Last to my mom. Outside you can look at the email.

1177
01:03:51,199 --> 01:03:52,559
I've got to run off or any day.

1178
01:03:52,599 --> 01:03:53,719
Speaker 3: Listen, let me do this.

1179
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:54,119
Speaker 2: Let me.

1180
01:03:54,559 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 18: Let me bring your mom in here and let's talk

1181
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,719
to her together. If that's what you want to do.

1182
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,719
Speaker 12: I want to talk to her outside outside, and I

1183
01:04:04,719 --> 01:04:07,599
promised to come back in here and sell you whatever

1184
01:04:07,679 --> 01:04:08,039
you want.

1185
01:04:53,079 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 1: William Miller had failed this polygraph test. Miserably, he realized

1186
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,880
the walls were closing in, and he asked for one

1187
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:04,079
last chance to talk with his mother. When he came

1188
01:05:04,159 --> 01:05:07,599
back into the room, William told police exactly what they'd

1189
01:05:07,639 --> 01:05:13,559
been waiting to hear. He had murdered Rebecca Gould all

1190
01:05:13,599 --> 01:05:19,119
of those years ago. It was him, that had always

1191
01:05:19,239 --> 01:05:20,880
been him.

1192
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll get Jeremy in a minute.

1193
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 2: We need to have a conversation. I held up my

1194
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:31,519
end of the deal. Let's talk. What do you want

1195
01:05:31,559 --> 01:05:33,679
me to tell you? I want you to tell me

1196
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:35,760
what you did, how it went down.

1197
01:05:36,559 --> 01:05:39,679
Speaker 12: One thing about this is it's been real and in

1198
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,199
your head like a movie real since it happened.

1199
01:05:42,559 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 2: There isn't anything about this. See you forgot I know

1200
01:05:46,639 --> 01:05:47,760
that because.

1201
01:05:47,559 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 3: I've been doing this a long time.

1202
01:05:49,199 --> 01:05:51,079
Speaker 5: I did.

1203
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,159
Speaker 2: You gotta sorry. I'm sorry for what I did. You

1204
01:05:55,199 --> 01:05:57,719
gotta tell me how it went down. I just sent it.

1205
01:05:58,880 --> 01:05:59,800
I kind of blocked it.

1206
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 3: Out of my mind and in a way to survive.

1207
01:06:04,679 --> 01:06:07,599
Speaker 18: Everybody that I'm associated is a victim about to me,

1208
01:06:08,119 --> 01:06:12,639
absolutely victim, absolutely, And I played everybody.

1209
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 12: As a fool, everybody. I never told anybody but you

1210
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:27,199
right now. I remember going into the trailer and stuff,

1211
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:32,000
and then it just happened so quick and so fast,

1212
01:06:32,519 --> 01:06:33,760
and then I freaked out.

1213
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 3: And you can't go all so for what happened so

1214
01:06:38,119 --> 01:06:39,239
fast and so quick?

1215
01:06:40,119 --> 01:06:42,639
Speaker 2: What happened? Where did it happen?

1216
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,159
Speaker 7: You have to tell me these things, if you guys,

1217
01:06:46,239 --> 01:06:47,079
isn't so, I mean, you.

1218
01:06:47,039 --> 01:06:49,519
Speaker 3: Should know that I do I do?

1219
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 2: Or should I just get a lawyer and all that stuff. Now,

1220
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:57,079
I'm just asking you that because you know, listen, man,

1221
01:06:57,199 --> 01:07:01,039
you know I'm telling you. You know I'm confessed to you.

1222
01:07:01,159 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 3: I'm telling you that I did it.

1223
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 2: Once you arrest me.

1224
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 15: Once you do arrest me, and that you said that

1225
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,039
I killed her by her blood and all that stuff

1226
01:07:09,119 --> 01:07:09,360
is in.

1227
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:13,239
Speaker 2: There, and arrest me, I'm confessant. I did it.

1228
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:16,119
Speaker 6: Dude.

1229
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 2: You're under arrest for the murder from Becca Gould.

1230
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 7: Okay, okay, take me to Arkansas.

1231
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 3: I mean, listen, know that that's all.

1232
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,199
Speaker 16: We will get there, right I know that, but you

1233
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,039
know it doesn't happen the way you want it to happen.

1234
01:07:33,119 --> 01:07:36,599
It just doesn't take me to Arkansas, do this, do that.

1235
01:07:37,199 --> 01:07:38,599
It doesn't happen that way.

1236
01:07:39,599 --> 01:07:40,239
Speaker 5: Here's the thing.

1237
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 4: You in the state of Arkansas, you can't and then

1238
01:07:43,159 --> 01:07:44,360
this is Trinlana States.

1239
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 5: You cannot just have a confession.

1240
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 4: You have to have some other piece of evidence that

1241
01:07:49,039 --> 01:07:50,239
ties the person of the crime.

1242
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 5: The problem for William is is.

1243
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,360
Speaker 4: That there was a piece of evidence that did tie

1244
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,079
him to the crime, and that's the missing suitcase. When

1245
01:07:57,079 --> 01:08:00,679
police arrived the day that Rebecca vantaged, there were three

1246
01:08:00,719 --> 01:08:03,760
things missing. One of her suitcases, the piano, egg and

1247
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:05,559
her Okay.

1248
01:08:05,519 --> 01:08:09,719
Speaker 12: But I need to know what you did with Rebecca.

1249
01:08:10,119 --> 01:08:13,480
Where did you put her before you dumped her? I

1250
01:08:13,519 --> 01:08:16,239
need to know all that stuff. And I know that's

1251
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:19,520
not easy to talk about, but we got to have

1252
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:20,439
that conversation.

1253
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 2: Where did you put her before you dumped her? Where'd

1254
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:25,520
you keep her in the truck?

1255
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:27,399
Speaker 6: Where in the truck?

1256
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 2: The back end of the truck?

1257
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 7: Okay, what was she in?

1258
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 2: She was in a shirt?

1259
01:08:36,159 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 1: Not no?

1260
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 3: Did you put her in a trash bag?

1261
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 6: Were there?

1262
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,920
Speaker 2: No? Would you put her in there was a blanket

1263
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:44,720
and all that stuff.

1264
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 12: Okay, what was used to cause her injuries? We'll go

1265
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,159
to Arkansas and I'm going to point out something to

1266
01:08:56,239 --> 01:08:59,119
you and then you'll find some certain things that you're

1267
01:08:59,119 --> 01:08:59,920
going to be looking for.

1268
01:09:01,079 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 3: All right, So you're telling me.

1269
01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 12: Right now in November twenty twenty, there is still physical

1270
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:16,000
evidence probably that has not been found. Yeah, let's go

1271
01:09:16,039 --> 01:09:27,479
to Arkansas. That will nail them in the coffin, would it.

1272
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:34,359
Speaker 17: Well no, I'm telling you, you know, unless somebody picked

1273
01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:37,079
it up and thought it was trash.

1274
01:09:37,359 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 12: But it should be where it's at.

1275
01:09:42,279 --> 01:09:47,279
Speaker 1: It should be where it's at. Well, that's helpful, Isn't

1276
01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,760
it weird how humans can do inhuman things but not

1277
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:55,000
talk about them afterwards. Words too violent for you, Billy.

1278
01:09:56,039 --> 01:09:57,520
There are a strange species.

1279
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:01,079
Speaker 4: Indeed, for you know, sixteen years they were trying to

1280
01:10:01,079 --> 01:10:03,960
find this suitcase. Well, William told them where to find

1281
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,840
the suitcase and it was in proximity to his mom's

1282
01:10:07,199 --> 01:10:10,840
old house when she was living in Guying, and it

1283
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,039
took him about the search. We estimate was about three

1284
01:10:14,119 --> 01:10:18,600
to four hours, but they found the suitcase. The suitcase

1285
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,800
is weird, though, and there's a reason why it's weird.

1286
01:10:22,399 --> 01:10:25,399
William says he took it. And William's he's not tall,

1287
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:27,760
but he's a big, stocky guy.

1288
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,079
Speaker 5: He weighed over three hundred pounds.

1289
01:10:29,079 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 4: There was only like five six and so he took

1290
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:33,880
this suitcase and he said he launched it from the

1291
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:37,319
highway and it landed like thirty forty yards away or

1292
01:10:37,319 --> 01:10:43,640
something like that. And so when it's found, it's open

1293
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:47,479
and all of the betting, and there's some betting, and

1294
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:49,880
there's some clothes. They're all in a pile over here,

1295
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,119
and there were some CDs in there and all this

1296
01:10:52,159 --> 01:10:55,399
other stuff. So Jenna's at my house one night after

1297
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:59,359
we get the pictures of this suitcase, and it was

1298
01:10:59,399 --> 01:11:03,760
confirmed to you was her suitcase, her stuff. There's only

1299
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:08,920
one problem. Think about the physics of throwing a suitcase. Okay,

1300
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:12,439
if it's all zipped up, you throw it, no problem.

1301
01:11:13,079 --> 01:11:15,359
But if it was open, then all that stuff would

1302
01:11:15,359 --> 01:11:17,399
have been scattered all over the place, and all of

1303
01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:21,159
the clothing type items would have long been gone, deteriorated

1304
01:11:21,319 --> 01:11:21,800
in nothing.

1305
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 9: They weren't faded. You could see the This is how

1306
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,479
we know it was came from Casey's houses because the

1307
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,520
plaid on the sheet matches that that was in his washer.

1308
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:36,800
And we've actually done our own suitcase experiment. One of

1309
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,840
the local residents in Melbourne went to Goodwill and got

1310
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,960
two black suitcases and her backyard has a very similar

1311
01:11:44,039 --> 01:11:46,399
landscape to where this suitcase was found, with the same

1312
01:11:46,399 --> 01:11:49,399
types of trees and leaves and obviously the same weather pattern.

1313
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:52,399
And so what we did is we had her put

1314
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,159
sheets in one suitcase and zip it closed and just

1315
01:11:55,199 --> 01:11:56,680
put it out like that, and then the other one

1316
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,760
we had her put the suitcase like Rebecca's was found

1317
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:03,119
with unzipped open and the sheets they're not in any pile,

1318
01:12:03,199 --> 01:12:05,880
but they're very close to the suitcase and just laying

1319
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:09,159
on top of the leaves, and so she put those

1320
01:12:09,199 --> 01:12:13,039
sheets out there. This started in December of twenty twenty three,

1321
01:12:14,039 --> 01:12:17,640
and within a few months those sheets were like unrecognizable,

1322
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:21,800
deteriorated and now they're just basically gone. So that's how

1323
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:25,880
we know, like Rebecca's suitcase could not have been laying

1324
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:29,560
open like that for sixteen years, and the sheets looked

1325
01:12:30,039 --> 01:12:34,479
pretty new. So somebody opened that suitcase, but we haven't

1326
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:36,560
figured out who yet.

1327
01:12:37,039 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 12: What would just saying too were there as well, I'm

1328
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:45,319
true sorry.

1329
01:12:46,199 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 2: I know that I can't bring her.

1330
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:56,119
Speaker 12: Back alone, and I yes, there was time to that.

1331
01:12:56,159 --> 01:12:58,119
Speaker 3: I wanted to go to Doctricol's office.

1332
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,159
Speaker 2: It'm a guy and get him.

1333
01:13:02,399 --> 01:13:08,319
Speaker 4: That did to change to do that, Like he gave

1334
01:13:08,359 --> 01:13:11,840
this confession, gave really no reason as to why Rebecca

1335
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:15,239
would you know he killed her. But then at his

1336
01:13:15,279 --> 01:13:19,279
sentencing he agrees to meet with doctor Gould afterwards and

1337
01:13:19,399 --> 01:13:21,159
he tells a completely different story about how he gave

1338
01:13:21,199 --> 01:13:22,920
her seat, that he hit her, but then he gave

1339
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:25,680
her CPR and if they find his DNA on her shirt,

1340
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:29,000
it was because he was crying. He keeps telling all

1341
01:13:29,039 --> 01:13:32,039
these crazy stories that don't make any sense. But like

1342
01:13:32,119 --> 01:13:35,079
with any anybody who's lying, there's grain, there's grains of

1343
01:13:35,119 --> 01:13:37,039
truth in there, and you've got to somehow try to

1344
01:13:37,079 --> 01:13:39,520
mind them out. Of course, now I claims he had

1345
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:40,760
nothing to do with it, in case he did all

1346
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:40,960
of it.

1347
01:13:41,079 --> 01:13:45,039
Speaker 9: So and for listeners who want to waste eleven hours

1348
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:48,760
of their life, they can watch his entire interview, polygraph, confession,

1349
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:50,760
everything on YouTube.

1350
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:55,399
Speaker 1: William was arrested for Rebecca's murder and eventually took a

1351
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:58,279
plea deal that landed him forty years in the Arkansas

1352
01:13:58,319 --> 01:14:03,159
Department of Corrections, and like George said, these days, William

1353
01:14:03,279 --> 01:14:07,359
has changed his story yet again. As you might suspect,

1354
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:10,600
he and Jen have been in contact with him since

1355
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:14,239
his arrest, and he now says that Casey murdered Rebecca,

1356
01:14:15,119 --> 01:14:16,920
he just helped clean up the scene.

1357
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,600
Speaker 4: And fun fact, the cleaning supplies that were used to

1358
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:26,000
clean up the crime scene were delivered by Linda, and

1359
01:14:26,039 --> 01:14:27,000
that's verified.

1360
01:14:27,399 --> 01:14:29,079
Speaker 5: She delivered those clean spies.

1361
01:14:29,279 --> 01:14:32,720
Speaker 4: Now she claims that her brother that he asked her

1362
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:35,720
to pick up certain items for the house and they

1363
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:37,960
were all cleaning items that were used by the killer

1364
01:14:38,039 --> 01:14:40,840
or killers to clean up the mess in the house.

1365
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,560
Speaker 1: No one knows for sure just how much Linda Miller

1366
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:48,960
knew about the situation, but it warnant some serious speculation.

1367
01:14:50,159 --> 01:14:53,760
Rebecca's murder wasn't the only secret her son had been keeping, though,

1368
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,159
the same day he took the polygraph test, failed it

1369
01:14:58,279 --> 01:15:01,760
and confessed to the murder. He also confessed to five

1370
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:07,680
others too. That's right, William could be a serial killer.

1371
01:15:08,359 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 4: What happened was is he confessed to Rebecca's murderer, and

1372
01:15:11,079 --> 01:15:12,760
of course then you know the detectives are trying to

1373
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:15,359
press him like, hey, we know this was your first rodeo.

1374
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:17,720
And so then he confesses to five other murders, but

1375
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,319
he doesn't give the names of the victims.

1376
01:15:21,239 --> 01:15:23,760
Speaker 5: He didn't give specific details though.

1377
01:15:24,079 --> 01:15:27,520
Speaker 4: About how he kidnapped one of these victims from which

1378
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:29,840
she was like at a payphone at a convenience store

1379
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:33,279
late night, you know, And he gave specific details about

1380
01:15:33,279 --> 01:15:35,359
how he would, you know, trick them.

1381
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:38,159
Speaker 5: He said it was some of them were sex workers, you.

1382
01:15:38,119 --> 01:15:40,079
Speaker 4: Know, they would think they were about getting ready to

1383
01:15:40,079 --> 01:15:42,680
have a sexual encounter. And sometimes he would have a

1384
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:45,760
strap underneath his his somewhere in his truck that he

1385
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:48,039
could just grab it, wrap it around their neck and

1386
01:15:48,079 --> 01:15:52,000
strangle them. I am almost one hundred percent confident that

1387
01:15:52,039 --> 01:15:54,079
he's a serial killer, and he's done this many times.

1388
01:15:54,239 --> 01:15:55,319
Speaker 5: I just believe it.

1389
01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:59,399
Speaker 1: Jen still waivers on whether she agrees with George on

1390
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:03,159
this one. She is one hundred percent sure that William

1391
01:16:03,279 --> 01:16:07,359
was somehow involved in the murder and disposal of Rebecca Gould.

1392
01:16:08,199 --> 01:16:12,279
Speaker 9: I just and this is the the tragedy of it,

1393
01:16:12,319 --> 01:16:15,760
in a way, is that if only the state police

1394
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:18,159
had shared a little bit with us, and we had

1395
01:16:18,239 --> 01:16:21,520
known William had been in the state of Arkansas, the

1396
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:23,279
weekend and the murder. I mean, everything would have been

1397
01:16:23,359 --> 01:16:25,600
so different from our side the whole time. And then

1398
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:28,880
him joining the group. I mean, that was a golden opportunity.

1399
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,760
They're lucky that we're smart and like I'm used to

1400
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:35,399
running sources and stuff and we know how to interview

1401
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:37,079
or what to say and not to say, because we

1402
01:16:37,119 --> 01:16:39,159
could have totally screwed the whole thing up and scared

1403
01:16:39,199 --> 01:16:41,439
him off and he never would have gone to that

1404
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:44,520
interview and confessed. But they also could have used us

1405
01:16:45,279 --> 01:16:47,880
to try to get information from him, if only they

1406
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,680
would have communicated with us, you know. And this was

1407
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:55,159
just what's so frustrating to me about this case. And

1408
01:16:55,199 --> 01:16:57,800
we're not here to defend William. I am one hundred

1409
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:00,159
percent confident he was involved in this whole thing, and

1410
01:17:00,199 --> 01:17:05,119
maybe others, but there are just aspects of the investigation

1411
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:11,199
and his confession that weren't vetted enough. For instance, his

1412
01:17:11,319 --> 01:17:15,560
timeline on this murder Monday morning, and they didn't challenge

1413
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,760
him on any of those details. And just to clarify

1414
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:22,000
for listeners, Williams, DNA, and Prince were never found in

1415
01:17:22,039 --> 01:17:25,119
that residence. I'm not saying they're not there. I'm sure

1416
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:29,560
his DNA was there somewhere, but they did not have

1417
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:33,800
anything else on him except his confession, which had parts

1418
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,760
that cannot be true. And there's actually a lot of

1419
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:40,119
das that would not approve an arrest warrant on this.

1420
01:17:41,439 --> 01:17:43,840
Speaker 1: It's no wonder this case has held the attention of

1421
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:48,079
so many for nearly two decades. It's not just the

1422
01:17:48,079 --> 01:17:52,279
brutality of what happened to Rebecca. It's the sheer scale

1423
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:58,520
of what we don't know, the conflicting timelines, the recycled alibis,

1424
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,840
the parade of rumors, false leads, and players who still

1425
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:07,760
haven't been entirely ruled out. William Miller is serving a

1426
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:12,039
forty year sentence for murder he now insists he falsely

1427
01:18:12,079 --> 01:18:15,960
confessed to He continues to beg Jen and George to

1428
01:18:16,079 --> 01:18:19,880
uncover new evidence that will put Casey or someone else

1429
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:24,239
in prison for this crime instead of him, But that

1430
01:18:24,359 --> 01:18:28,760
ship is sailed. He took a plea deal, he confessed,

1431
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:33,479
he volunteered evidence, and in doing so, he gave up

1432
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:35,920
almost any chance of appeal.

1433
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:40,159
Speaker 9: So I've been to visit him three times, and George

1434
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:43,239
actually got to interview him and take video of it.

1435
01:18:43,279 --> 01:18:47,000
Because he's an official journalist or what is it, George

1436
01:18:47,279 --> 01:18:50,439
media member. I guess that got you in, and so

1437
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:54,439
I'm just if he's willing to keep talking to us,

1438
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,720
I'm not going to give up because I feel compelled

1439
01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:01,119
to not only try to get the truth about Rebecca's case,

1440
01:19:01,239 --> 01:19:04,000
but also try to figure out if he has other victims.

1441
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:06,279
And so I told him this last time. This is

1442
01:19:06,319 --> 01:19:08,359
just a couple months ago when I went with Jeremy.

1443
01:19:10,279 --> 01:19:12,960
I said, dude, we're about the same age, and barring

1444
01:19:13,039 --> 01:19:16,920
some major catastrophe or me getting cancer like, we're going

1445
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:18,760
to be alive for about the same amount of time.

1446
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:20,840
And I'm not going to stop talking to you.

1447
01:19:22,079 --> 01:19:25,760
Speaker 1: And in the absence of official help, it's civilians like

1448
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:29,039
you and me who are stepping up and finding William's

1449
01:19:29,159 --> 01:19:34,199
other potential victims, not ego driven cops in short charts,

1450
01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:39,960
regular people like you and me with a moral compass,

1451
01:19:40,039 --> 01:19:43,359
a strong sense of right and wrong, and a need

1452
01:19:44,119 --> 01:19:48,560
for justice. People who will not stop asking questions even

1453
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:51,520
when officials have long forgotten the case and told you

1454
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:56,520
to shut up. Webslutes like this have already been calming

1455
01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:00,279
through other cold cases across every state. William ever set

1456
01:20:00,279 --> 01:20:03,800
foot in trying to make sense of what he vaguely

1457
01:20:03,840 --> 01:20:05,720
blurted out during his police interview.

1458
01:20:06,399 --> 01:20:09,880
Speaker 9: So we can't do it by ourselves. And so we

1459
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:12,279
started this project several months ago and I just called

1460
01:20:12,279 --> 01:20:15,039
it Operation Rebecca, so I didn't know what else. I

1461
01:20:15,039 --> 01:20:17,760
couldn't come up with anything better. But I have an

1462
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:20,439
official sign up form. I have a video on our

1463
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:23,760
YouTube channel explaining the process of what we're doing, and

1464
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:26,399
I just asked volunteers if to fill out the forum,

1465
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:30,720
it's only four questions. Sign up for a state and

1466
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:32,840
then watch the video, and then email me once you

1467
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:34,600
watch a video, and I'll send you the links to

1468
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:37,600
the Google Drive folder that has all the information you need.

1469
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:40,680
Speaker 1: We'll post a link to gens info in the show

1470
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:43,560
notes at Swordinscale dot com, so you too can join

1471
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:47,199
the investigative fund. Now where did I put that magnifying

1472
01:20:47,239 --> 01:20:47,760
glass again?

1473
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:49,239
Speaker 5: Anyway?

1474
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 1: I think this case proves justice doesn't always wear a badge.

1475
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:57,520
Sometimes it looks like a true crime podcast enthusiast with

1476
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:00,159
a search tab open at three am and way eat

1477
01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:03,760
too much coffee in their digestive system. Get twenty percent

1478
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:06,800
off at Strongcoffeecompany dot com. With promo code Sword by

1479
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:10,439
the way. But as I was saying, sometimes justice looks

1480
01:21:11,119 --> 01:21:15,479
just like you and just like me. Sometimes it requires

1481
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:18,760
a hive of citizens to stand up for justice and

1482
01:21:19,279 --> 01:21:24,720
collectively uncover what a single mind cannot or will not.

1483
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:28,520
It's kind of amazing to see it happen in real time.

1484
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:36,520
And next time, maybe, just maybe, you'll be the reason

1485
01:21:37,079 --> 01:22:28,239
someone's story doesn't end in silence. YouTube dot com slash

1486
01:22:28,279 --> 01:22:31,119
Sword and Scale TVs, where you can find all three

1487
01:22:31,239 --> 01:22:36,359
seasons of Sword and Scale television. It's ongoing, new episodes

1488
01:22:36,399 --> 01:22:39,119
every month. That's gonna do it. Thank you for joining us.

1489
01:22:39,600 --> 01:24:18,760
Until next time, Stay safe.

1490
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 11: S