WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.120 Hey guys, it's Jack. 2 00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:03.240 I just wanted to talk to you today about a 3 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:05.919 way that you can help support the podcast if you're 4 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:09.519 not already to support the channel is to become a 5 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:13.000 Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at 6 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.919 just five dollars a month, and when you sign up, 7 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:19.160 you get access to all of our episodes add free. 8 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:21.679 That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also 9 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:26.239 do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers, but this 10 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:28.960 is the biggest and best way that you can support 11 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:33.679 the Teamhouse channel and podcast if you'd like to, and 12 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:36.200 we really appreciate that, So go and check us out 13 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:39.640 at patreon dot com, Slash The Teamhouse. 14 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:54.280 Special Operations, Cobert Ox Aspionage, The Team House with Your Hopes, 15 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:58.000 Jack Murphy and David Bark. 16 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:04.959 Hey, everyone, welcome to episode two hundred and ninety five 17 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:06.959 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave 18 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:10.040 Park and our guest on tonight's show is John Daily. 19 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:12.840 He is the author of Tough, Rugged Bastards. 20 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:15.879 It is a memoir about his time in the Marine Corps, 21 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:20.680 his service in Force Recon Detachment one, and then helping 22 00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:24.079 to stand up marsk in the very beginning years, and 23 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:29.120 he continues to work with Marsk today as a civilian. John, 24 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:33.239 thank you for coming on the show and sharing your history, 25 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:35.560 but the slice of Marine Corps history also. 26 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:39.280 Thanks well, Jack Dave. I appreciate you having me on. 27 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:42.159 I'm excited for the chance to talk with you guys. 28 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.359 So let's start at the beginning of your story. Tell 29 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:48.599 us a bit about you know, your upbringing and how 30 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:51.000 that kind of took you towards the Marine Corps. 31 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:56.280 Yeah, I grew up along the Virginia West Virginia border 32 00:01:56.519 --> 00:02:01.480 on both sides at various times, and I got an 33 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.879 Appalachia foot heels and and you know, it's a great, 34 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:06.879 great way to go grow up, you know, in the 35 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:11.560 seventies eighties, you know, I had not a lot of 36 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:14.879 of neighbors, you know, not a lot of other kids. 37 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:16.280 So it was a whole lot of a lot of 38 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:20.120 whole lot of meat out in the woods, running around 39 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:22.560 by myself. But it taught me a lot of things, 40 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:28.199 you know, uh, you know, learned about not living off 41 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:31.719 the land necessarily, but you know, just being very comfortable outdoors. 42 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:34.280 You know, I think the I was I think it 43 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:36.520 was eight the first time I told my dad, I 44 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:38.599 want to go camping out in the woods by myself, 45 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:42.120 you know, and it went out, set up my tent, 46 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:44.159 you got everything ready, you know, at about like two 47 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:46.560 in the afternoon, and you know, it seemed like an 48 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:49.759 eternity before the sun finally went down, and when it did, 49 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.520 you know, it was it was probably you know, I 50 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:56.199 was a stubborn kid, but you know, it's gets dark 51 00:02:56.240 --> 00:03:00.360 and I've been camping plenty with my folks, but uh, 52 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:03.159 you know, all the sounds of the night time start 53 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:06.439 coming out, and I really, really, you know, I wanted, 54 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.919 I wanted to go back home, but it was it 55 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:12.479 was just you know, the stubbornness that kind of kept 56 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:14.639 me out. And I think that's probably one of the 57 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:16.639 things I learned kind of growing up that way, and 58 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:20.599 it's stubbornness was absolutely a skill that paid off and 59 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:22.479 make evidence in the Marine Corps. 60 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:25.280 And so as you grow up, you start hitting like 61 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:28.680 your high school years, what's you know, how is the 62 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:30.719 Marine Corps starting to enter into your life. 63 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:34.719 Yeah, I had had kind of known. I learned about 64 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:39.360 the Marine Corps at a really early age and kind 65 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:40.599 of had it in the back of my head that 66 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:43.120 that's what I wanted to do. When I got into 67 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:47.599 high school, we moved, my parents got divorced, and I 68 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:51.439 was on the West Virginia side now And just as 69 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.800 like fate would have it, the recruiter in the recruiting 70 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.039 office that was it was local, was a Force Rey 71 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.080 Con marine and he had, you know, it's a sniper. 72 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:04.000 He kind of everything that I wanted to do. And 73 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:06.280 he had the pictures up on his his wall in 74 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:09.680 his office, and uh, he kind of took me under 75 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:12.560 his twing, you know, and and you started teaching me, 76 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:17.079 prepping me, and so, you know, throughout my my high 77 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:19.600 school years. The decision was made. I didn't have the 78 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:23.720 grades really for anything else, so that that made life 79 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:25.839 a little easier. We didn't have the money for college 80 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:29.199 even if I would have. Uh So it was it 81 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:31.120 was a pretty easy decision, but it was. It was 82 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:33.079 one I was. You know, when I went in, I 83 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:35.879 I operated on the assumption that you joined the Marine 84 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:39.199 Corps you stayed in forever. You know. I didn't. I 85 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:41.639 didn't realize that there was there were enlistments, all right, 86 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:43.360 And when they they told me like, hey, how long 87 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:45.600 do you want to join for? I was like yeah, 88 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:47.759 until I die, I guess I don't know. 89 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:50.560 Yeah, well that's pretty much what you signed up for. 90 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:52.079 As it turns out, John. 91 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:52.959 It did. 92 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:56.240 Yeah, and it uh, you know, I I loved it. 93 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:59.959 I mean I I I can't say that I love 94 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:02.319 every minute of it, but you know there I can't 95 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.920 remember the minutes that I didn't didn't love. And the 96 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:07.399 thing that I learned that, you know, it seems to 97 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:11.079 be common among you know, special operations guys, is that, 98 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:13.199 you know, the times that you really love at the 99 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:16.199 times that really really sucked, you know, and you don't 100 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.040 love them at the time they're sucking. But you know, 101 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.040 when you get back to the you know, the rear, 102 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.680 you're cleaning weapons and cleaning gear, and you kind of 103 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:24.720 get to talk shit to other teams about how hard 104 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:28.160 your patrol was or how you know, how bad the 105 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:30.360 mission was, or who ran out of water. You know, 106 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:33.279 it's you know with twenty four hours ago, or ran 107 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:36.639 out of show and they had to x fill. You know, 108 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:40.160 those those sorts of things that build teams, build communities. 109 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:43.120 And that's that's what I loved about it. 110 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.199 And so you come in what year did you join 111 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:48.639 the Marines and tell us about those early years what 112 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:49.800 it was like at that time. 113 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:55.120 Yeah, I joined in eighty seven, right out of like 114 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.399 two weeks out of high school, and it was I 115 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:00.800 think an interesting time, of course, you know know it then, 116 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:07.800 but yeah, it was far enough post Vietnam where a 117 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:11.639 lot of the disgruntal veterans that you I had heard about, 118 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.120 you know, they weren't anywhere to be seen for the 119 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:17.360 most part. There were still absolutely plenty of Vietnam vetts, 120 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:20.879 but most of them were first sergeants and and you know, 121 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:23.959 certain major master gunnery sergeants things of that nature that 122 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:27.839 me as a PFC wasn't talking to anyway. You know, 123 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:30.600 I would get my ass shoot by one occasionally, But 124 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:35.800 so there was but we were still absolutely learning or 125 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:38.600 practicing all of the you know, we were preparing to 126 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.360 fight another Vietnam, right, so all of the lessons that 127 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.959 that they had learned, I remember, and I just I 128 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.800 still have. I pulled out and made copies of the 129 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:52.360 other day, a relatively thick document that that GETA was 130 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:56.680 just patrolling tips from from UH. I think it probably 131 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:59.680 was compiled by SF guys, but you know, everything from 132 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:03.199 you know, taping on your legs, tabs on your mags 133 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:05.319 you could pull them out quickly to to cutting down 134 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:08.120 the mag pouching inch. So it's easy to get your 135 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.560 mags out, you know, taking the spoons under your age 136 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:13.839 and all of these things. We were just just all 137 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.240 over them, you know. We were you know expecting or 138 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:22.160 hoping or whatever for another you know, Vietnam, and so 139 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:24.720 that's kind of my formative years in the Marine Corps 140 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:27.240 and my early years. Uh I was in the Scout 141 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.920 sniper platoon and those that was you know Carlos Athcock. 142 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:35.839 You know, his book was passed around and uh getting 143 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:37.519 the opportunity to meet him, I got to meet him. 144 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:41.120 Uh was like meeting you know, a freaking rock star 145 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:45.279 est uh So it uh, I mean it was it 146 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:48.399 was really, uh I think a good time. There wasn't 147 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:50.160 a lot of money, you know, there was a whole 148 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:53.519 lot of uh I mean life in the infantry really 149 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:58.639 at that time. You know, on Monday morning, you you know, 150 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:00.800 throw your ruck on it, you you know, hike out 151 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:04.240 to the field and you'd you know, set up a 152 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:10.120 camp and you do patrols, you know, Tuesday through Thursday. 153 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.360 If you're lucky, you know, Thursday, you'd you'd hike back, 154 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.240 clean your weapons, turn them in, you know, go get 155 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:21.040 drunk Thursday night, and usually they just give you off Friday, 156 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:22.800 so you get a three day week and you know, 157 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:25.480 three day weekend and back at it the next week. 158 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.000 And that was just a week after week after week. 159 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:30.560 So I mean, you got really really good at the 160 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:35.399 basic you know, infantry activities that you know lead to success. 161 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.120 And then as we get towards the nineties, were you 162 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:41.840 I'm trying to remember what were you? A Marine Embassy 163 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:42.799 guard for a little while. 164 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:48.679 I was, so I was the unit that I was in. 165 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:53.960 I had initially started out in a sniper platoon, had 166 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:57.279 got the opportunity to go to sniper school, but we 167 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:00.440 weren't doing a lot, so there was kind of got 168 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:04.840 suckered in by the I think we call them career planners. 169 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:07.559 I think in the army they might called like detailers 170 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:10.519 or whatever. But the guy in the unit whose job 171 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:12.840 it is to get people to sign up for special duties. 172 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:15.360 And I ran into a little bit of party, you know, 173 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:18.600 in the in the barracks, and he was, uh, you 174 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:20.759 found out that I was a sniper. And I'm sure 175 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:22.279 I didn't make it hard for him to find out, 176 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:24.799 you know, I just just graduated from sniper school. So 177 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.639 I'm sure I was spouting off to anybody who listen. 178 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:29.440 But he was like, hey, man, I got a deal 179 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:32.879 for you. There's this duty where you go and work 180 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.840 at foreign embassies and uh, you know, with your with 181 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:38.639 your background as a sniper, you know you'll be you know, 182 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.840 working for the CIA at no time. And I was like, what, 183 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:45.440 you know, like that sounds awesome, Like sign me up. So, 184 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:48.639 you know, the unit was actually kind of pissed because 185 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:50.879 I had just got back from sniper school. You know, 186 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:52.960 there's some expectation that I was going to help train 187 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:56.960 some other guys and I was. I was on the 188 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.399 next thing smoking to the Marine Security Guard school, which, 189 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:03.919 as it turns out, is does not involve, you know, 190 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:09.480 targeting people for the CIA whatsoever. It's a whole lot 191 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:11.720 of wear in your dress uniform and kind of greeting 192 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.159 dignitaries and just basically standing standing guard over an embassy 193 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:19.080 at night when everybody goes home. But it was it 194 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:23.120 was a really great learning experience. I know, while I 195 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:26.879 was in Budapest was my first duty station, and that 196 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:31.879 was right as the wall was coming down and eighty 197 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:39.559 nine and the Soviets were leaving Hungary. I met the 198 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:42.240 chick who had become my wife some years later, an 199 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:45.559 American school teacher, So that was you know, that panned out. 200 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:50.159 So we've been married for just over thirty two years now, 201 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:54.399 so that that worked out pretty well. And then from 202 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:58.440 there I went to Buenos Aires, Argentina. I missed the 203 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.480 First Golf War because you know, during that that interim period. 204 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:06.440 But uh, and that's I don't I don't think I 205 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.559 talk about it in the book. But one of the 206 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.840 kind of funny stories to come out of that is 207 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:18.240 when I got I left Budapest right as the build 208 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:21.000 up for the Gulf War was happening, and so by 209 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:24.320 the time I get to Argentina, it's it's getting ready 210 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:28.320 to kick off. And there's a form in the Marine 211 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:32.240 Corps called an Administrative Action Form that you can fill 212 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:35.600 out and request anything with it. And so I would 213 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:37.840 go into the embassy every morning, I'd fill out one 214 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:39.879 of these forms and say, hey, I want to go 215 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.759 to you know, any unit that's it's involved in combat, 216 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:46.120 and I would you know, turn it in to my 217 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.240 you know, my boss, who was a gunny at East seven, 218 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:52.919 and he would I don't know what he was doing 219 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:53.759 with it, but uh. 220 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:57.919 Them back across the desk to Yeah, they. 221 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:00.679 Would disappear and the next day I and I'd fill 222 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:02.759 out another one. So apparently what he had done with 223 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:05.120 them is he was taking them and passing them on 224 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:08.039 to the kind of our next boss. And the State 225 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:11.799 Department chain of command was the regional security officer at 226 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.200 the embassy, And so I had been there for a 227 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:18.759 couple of weeks filling out these forms and the President Bush, 228 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:22.799 the senior President Bush, came to visit, and yeah, we 229 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:25.200 had the opportunity all the Marines out there to meet him, 230 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.320 and he's shaking our hands and we're getting our picture taken, 231 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:31.480 and he's getting ready to go into like a press conference, 232 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.480 and he when I shake his hand and says, you know, hey, 233 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:38.279 sorted daily, sir, He's like, daily, are you the one 234 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:42.919 who keeps trying to go to Iraq? Knock it off? 235 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:47.440 You're not going. So I'm sure you know somebody had 236 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.279 put it in his ear, but it was I was like, well, 237 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:51.960 I guess, you know, I guess I'll give. 238 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:56.600 Up out of curiosity. Well, two questions. 239 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:59.639 One, anytime somebody met you and didn't see how your 240 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:00.399 name was spelled. 241 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.639 Did they ask you if you're related to Dan daey. 242 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.480 Oh all the time, even regardless of how it's spelled. Yeah. 243 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.639 That was like boot camp was a kind of a 244 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:14.320 horrible thing because I was just always, you know, they 245 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:16.399 come up, hey, Dan Daily, come up here and go 246 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.639 charge the machine gun nests or whatever. 247 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.360 You got to share this. You got to share this 248 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:22.879 piece of Marine Corps war. 249 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.120 Your name is spelled like his. I'm sorry about that. 250 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:27.600 I for some reason in my mind it was spelled differently. 251 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:30.240 You got to it is. Yeah, his is U d 252 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.320 A L y oh, right, it is? This is a 253 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:34.960 different Yeah. Is he a Medal of Honor recipient? 254 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:40.440 Do you I I don't recall my I'm I'm I'm embarrassed, 255 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:42.919 but I don't remember my Marine yeah war. 256 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:47.799 So yeah, Dan Daily was actually one of two two 257 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:54.039 Medal of Honor recipients, So he was uh got the 258 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:59.039 first one in uh China. They're in the Boxer Rocks 259 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:03.559 Boxer Rebellion. Yeah, I like nineteen oh five holes. Apparently 260 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:06.799 just just they put him out on a post and 261 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.639 he just stacked bodies, I mean to the to the 262 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:11.840 to the point where he literally had like the made 263 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:14.519 of wall out of the out of the Chinese that 264 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:19.799 he was they were attacking. And then the second one, 265 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:23.039 the second was actually down in South America in the 266 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:26.480 Banana Wars. Yeah, Nicaragua or Haiti. 267 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:29.919 Yeah, I mean according to Wikipedia, but yeah, take that out. 268 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:33.159 You're right. He was I think a couple of machine 269 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:38.600 guns had been lost in a river and he went 270 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.159 back like under fire and dove. They're like fifty cows 271 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:45.639 and I went and swam them up. But he was 272 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.679 kind of more famous for during World War One in 273 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:55.440 bellow Wood in France. He uh, the Marines were kind 274 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:58.159 of stuck, you know, behind a hedgerow, and the Germans, 275 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.279 who was just kind of laying waste to him, got 276 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.440 a big open field they have to cross. And his 277 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:05.840 famous quote was, you know, he stood up with his pistol, 278 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:08.159 started charging. I think he was the first harden at 279 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:11.080 the time, and said, come on, your sons of bitches, 280 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:14.399 you want to live forever. So that's of course everybody 281 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.320 jumped up went after him, and that's, uh, that's kind 282 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:17.639 of the day. 283 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:19.840 So a lot for you to live up to. 284 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:26.559 Yeah, yeah, I mean, well, isn't that also the Battle 285 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:29.960 of the Woods. If I remember, right, that's where the 286 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.879 Marines got the nickname devil Dog, right from the Germans. 287 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:36.799 Yeah, and how much of that's accurate, I've I've come 288 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:39.960 to understand that, you know, I mean, the Marine Corps 289 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:45.200 always been very very good at uh their own publicity. Yeah, 290 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:47.360 and and that's one of the things I don't I'm 291 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:49.399 not sure that's one hundred percent. I'm not sure that 292 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:51.519 it matters, you know, if it's a dred percent, right, 293 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:55.759 but uh, yeah, the story was that the Germans, the 294 00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:00.919 German Army had a awarded uh the the term two 295 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:05.039 for London to a unit the hardest fighting unit every 296 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.840 year within the German Army, and after meeting the Marines, 297 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:12.120 they decided that they would have bestowed that name on 298 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.679 on the Marine Corps for that year. So that uh 299 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.240 and then we took that name and earned or not 300 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.240 or you know, made up or not and ran with it. 301 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:26.840 And then my second question was you were you were 302 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.440 not in a combat position when the First Golf War 303 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:30.600 kicked off. 304 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:33.759 Did you feel crushed when it first launched? 305 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:39.840 Yeah? Yeah, that was uh, you know, I mean it's 306 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:45.600 kind of indescribable, right you joined, you know, especially, I 307 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.960 mean I had filled my head with you know, growing 308 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:51.000 up at the time, I did like you know, Rambo 309 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.879 and Chuck Morris, Michigan Action and just everything was you know, 310 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.440 these these combat movies and then you know books, you know, 311 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:02.960 I was devouring the longer the alert books and you 312 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:07.559 know Force freaknd Diary and just so you know, everything 313 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.480 that I had done was to prepare for combat, you know, 314 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.400 and and then to have it happen, and you know 315 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.720 you're setting it out, and especially setting it out you 316 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:20.799 know beside the pool and Buenos Aires, you know, at 317 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:24.000 the Marine housis right. Uh, you know, if you had 318 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:25.519 to send it out, it was a pretty good place 319 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:29.920 to be. But it's still it really hurt me. And 320 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.559 then when I got back to the States and back 321 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:38.759 to an infantry unit, the fact that there were you know, 322 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.039 young guys you know, run around with the stack of metals, uh, 323 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:45.359 you know, ribbons from a like man, you know. You see, 324 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:47.920 I definitely felt that I had I had missed, you know, 325 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:50.519 my calling, you know, and it didn't seem that there 326 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:53.079 was you know, anything else kind of bruin on the horizon. 327 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.440 So it was really at that point it's like the 328 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.079 only thing that I can do is keep kind of 329 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:03.640 moving up to units that will, uh offer me a 330 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:04.720 better opportunity. 331 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:07.240 So that was why you went to force recon. 332 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:13.680 That was definitely a part of it. But I really 333 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:20.039 enjoyed being in a sniper platoon. I really loved the work, 334 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.200 you know, the all the discipline, the longering, shooting, everything 335 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.119 that goes into that. But I had always you know, 336 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:31.240 recognized that Force Recon was, you know, the kind of 337 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:32.920 the tip of the spear of what the Marine Corps 338 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.880 had in my eyes at least. And the problem that 339 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.119 I had was that I really was not a great swimmer. 340 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:43.279 And I mean I could swim, you know, well enough 341 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:44.960 to get in the Marine Corps and well enough for 342 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:51.200 most things. But Force ricon it requires a pretty high 343 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:54.160 level of swimming ability. And so I had tried out 344 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:59.960 once and didn't make it. And it's it's tough, you know, 345 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:01.799 it's a tough thing to learn how to swim, you know, 346 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.599 when you don't, you know, there's the Rene Corps doesn't 347 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.640 give you a lot of access surprisingly to uh. Especially 348 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:09.880 I was stationed at this point at twenty nine palms 349 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.880 to the middle of the desert. You know, they did 350 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.880 have a swimming pool, so I started, you know, hitting 351 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:19.400 that up and working on that. But then I had 352 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.279 the opportunity to try out again and made it. 353 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.559 Can you real quick tell us the difference between Battalion 354 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:32.759 reconn enforced RACON both in their mission and capabilities and 355 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:33.400 things like that. 356 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:37.799 Absolutely, So training, at least initial training is the same. 357 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:42.640 And throughout you know, uh, a marine's career, quite often 358 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:45.319 they would start out in battalion recon, you know, move 359 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.559 over the force, you know, maybe be an assistant team leader, 360 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:51.039 and then go back to battalion and be a team leader. 361 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:53.319 You know. So some people would kind of have these 362 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.200 careers where they bounce back and forth among units. I didn't. 363 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.119 I came a little bit later. I was a sergeant 364 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.319 when I got to Force. But the battalion recon is 365 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:08.240 the asset of a battalian level commander, so it's there. 366 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:14.680 He's there to answer that commander's information requirements generally speaking, 367 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:18.720 you know, within five to ten miles of their kind 368 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:23.759 of area of interest. Force recon, on the other hand, 369 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.799 works for the force commander, so it's you know, whoever 370 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.039 the kind of the big big wig is. You know, 371 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:32.799 when we got into Afghanistan, it wound up being Maddis, 372 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.079 So he was the task force commander, so we were 373 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:41.119 tasked with answering his requirements. So because of that, you're 374 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:45.480 more likely to have like a freefall capability in it. 375 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:49.119 It's not exclusive to to Force Frican, but it's more 376 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:54.279 likely to have a or advanced freefall capability. And Force 377 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:57.880 Ricon also had the Direct Action mission at the time, 378 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.880 and I was there as at IHR are an expremists 379 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.119 hostage rescue. Yeah. 380 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:09.279 Now, Force was by all majors a special operations unit, 381 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.720 but was not fortunate enough because of the Marine Corps. 382 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.279 Can you tell us about that why they weren't included 383 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:17.640 in JASACK or you sack or anything like that. 384 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.559 Yeah. So the whole story obviously goes back to the 385 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:28.440 founding of SOCOM and after the failed attempt to rescue 386 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:36.039 the Iranian, the Americans and the Iranian hostages. So in 387 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:39.119 nineteen eighty seven, you know, based on kind of that 388 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:45.000 all of the failures that happened there, the military was told, hey, 389 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.000 you need to create a special operations entity that oversees 390 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:54.480 all special operations and coordinates them. The SF was like 391 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:57.680 Roger that you know, they jumped over the Rangers, the Seals, 392 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:02.000 Air Force Special Operation his PGA's Pair Rescue and the 393 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:06.000 Marine Corps was invited, but the commandant at the time 394 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.119 said no, he had had a different vision for the 395 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:13.880 Marine Corps and that was I mean, it was a 396 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:19.000 great vision. But the Marine Corps formed at that point 397 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:23.880 the Marine Expeditionary Unit. So at any any point in time, 398 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:29.200 there are generally two Marine Expeditionary units that are on 399 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:34.319 probably three Navy ships, so there's three or four thousand sailors, 400 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:38.119 three or four thousand marines out at sea and there. 401 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:41.079 That's kind of when we came up with the America's 402 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:43.920 nine to one to one, you know, a little nickname 403 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.880 for ourselves. So because of that, the fors Riekan assets 404 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:54.960 were held to be a part of of that, and 405 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.480 so and then we were I was just joining the 406 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:01.039 Marine Corps at that time, and you know it would 407 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:03.160 you know later when I got the force. Like I said, 408 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.079 it was, it was not uncommon, you know, an uncommon 409 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.039 topic to have, you know, when you're sitting in the 410 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:11.839 ground drink and beer to bitch and moan about you know, 411 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:16.880 us not not having access to the missions, the money. 412 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.000 You know, Yeah, sorry, I said, you suck. I met 413 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:21.720 so combat. 414 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.400 Yeah, tell us then about what Force was like in 415 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.759 those days in the nineteen nineties, what you guys were 416 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.000 up to kind of the training and deployment schedule. 417 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.079 Yeah, it was, uh, I mean that was in my opinion, 418 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:40.880 there was a heyday of it was it was they 419 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:43.799 started for first Force f Reecon, which I was a 420 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:47.720 part of decision in Camp Pendleton, California, had been done 421 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:50.799 away with after Vietnam and they didn't stand back up 422 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.839 until nineteen eighty seven, and they stood back up with 423 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:59.559 the this direct action mission. And when they they started that, 424 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:04.279 the that was really a wild like kind of wild 425 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.400 wild West. You know. They were you know, we were 426 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:08.599 bringing in l A p D Squat, who was kind 427 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.640 of you know, new and l A p D Swat 428 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.359 was bringing an FBI h r T. A lot of 429 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.279 a lot of other people from a lot of places 430 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:20.839 were coming and and the level of training was was 431 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:26.039 incredibly high. But it was also, like we were talking 432 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:27.960 about a little bit before we came on camera, like 433 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.359 a lot of point shooting, a lot of uh, some 434 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:34.119 trick trick shooting was was kind of the order of 435 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.119 the day, and some in some places and and you 436 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.240 can you could be really really good at that, uh, 437 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:43.319 you know, at short range and as long as you 438 00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:47.000 are practicing every single day, you know, like we were 439 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.759 the early days, there was you know, they were bringing 440 00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:56.799 back from from Vietnam. They'd actually developed the OEG uh, 441 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.359 the occluded eye gun sight. We were throw of those 442 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:06.319 on our M sixteens and and MP fives, which requires 443 00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:09.440 you to shoot with both eyes open all right, because 444 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:13.680 it's like a clear or not not a clear test 445 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:15.839 tube essentially with a red dot in it so you 446 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.519 can't see through it. You know, you had to keep 447 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:22.039 both eyes open, which is yeah, which is good. I mean, 448 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:24.319 it's it's helpful obviously to shoot with both eyes open, 449 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:27.359 But it was it was based on this idea, it's 450 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:30.079 called the binion aiming concept, right, that if you keep 451 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:31.839 both eyes open and shoot that way long enough, it 452 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:35.359 becomes natural. So there was a lot of you know, 453 00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:38.960 testing and experimentation going on. So it was it was 454 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:41.720 a really cool time to be there. By the time 455 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:46.240 I rolled in, I think things had settled down a 456 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:49.720 little bit and in my opinion anyway, first force recon 457 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:54.839 was was recognized certainly in the Marine Corps as the 458 00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.880 pinnacle of of what marine reconnaissance could be. So I 459 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:04.599 had arrived with the kind of pedigree of having spent 460 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:08.200 time in a sniper platoon, you know, been you know, 461 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:12.440 a sniper, been to the scout Sniper Advanced course at 462 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:14.799 the Marine Corps just puts on once a year. And 463 00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:18.279 I had also had the opportunity to go to Ranger 464 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.039 School and jump school, so which was which kind of 465 00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:26.720 unusual at that time, and it was unusual that anybody 466 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:29.359 outside of Porto Rican would have gotten to go to 467 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:34.079 Ranger school if quotas were available. So when I checked 468 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:39.759 in to First Force in ninety two, I got, uh, 469 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:42.160 you know, one of the one of the Marines was 470 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.599 asking me, you know, asking me who I was, and 471 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:48.480 this and that, and you know it was forgot. I 472 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:51.799 couldn't remember my name, but he was like, hey, you know, 473 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:53.839 he was telling his platoons argat he was like, hey, 474 00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.720 we should grab that guy the ranger. So I became 475 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:01.200 ranger daily after that. And there's a name that's stuck 476 00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:04.400 with me now for thirty some years. And you know, 477 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.680 people always you know, really curious were you in the 478 00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:09.519 Rangers or you know, before you joined the Rink Corps, 479 00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:12.079 or were you a park ranger or whatever. But no, 480 00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:13.920 it's just somebody couldn't remember my name. 481 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.680 It's like when when Marines attend rangers school, they all 482 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:19.519 get called gunny. 483 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:23.839 Yeah, so. 484 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.119 As times go, time goes on, I mean, as I 485 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:33.400 understand it and jump in if I'm misunderstanding. Because the 486 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:36.160 Force recon and recon guys were not part of special 487 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:40.480 operations per se. Technically at that time, those guys had 488 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:44.440 to like cycle back into infantry units conventional units, and 489 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:48.079 hopefully come back again at a higher rank. But it 490 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:50.920 sounds like you got to stay there pretty much through 491 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.440 the entire time, up until Debt one came around. 492 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.000 Yeah, I was I was lucky. There's a couple of 493 00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:04.279 things that happened initially the the MOS recon Marines three 494 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:07.559 twenty one. That was it was not a primary MOS, 495 00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:12.279 so you were when you became a in the Marine Corps. 496 00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:17.440 If you're an infantry MS O three, doesn't matter what 497 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:21.880 you are within there. You're a grunt, you're a machine gunner, mortarman, 498 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.720 uh or a recon marine. When you become a staff 499 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:28.799 sergeant Niece six, you become an O three sixty nine, 500 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.640 which is an infantry unit leader. And at that point 501 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:34.359 you can be you could be moved anywhere. And so 502 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.119 quite often that would happen to recon marines when they 503 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:41.279 became promoted to a staff sargeant, they would get moved 504 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:43.880 out to the infantry and they would do some time 505 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:48.559 there and come back. I was fortunate. I mean, I 506 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:51.480 think there was you know, it was known that if 507 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:57.759 you were you know, somebody that really put out, was 508 00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:00.240 good at your job, then there were way used to 509 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:03.559 find it, find a way for you to stay. And 510 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.240 and often as long as you kept deploying, you know, 511 00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:08.799 you were staying active in a in a platoon, then 512 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:12.160 you were you were kind of safe. So at that 513 00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:14.200 time there were a lot of guys who were who 514 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.079 were staying for a good while. And I was I 515 00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:21.960 was able to stay, uh for about ten years there 516 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:24.519 and and you know, work my way up from pointmand 517 00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:28.400 to platoon sergeant and would have would have stayed I think, 518 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:33.079 yeah longer if if I could have tell us. 519 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:36.240 Where you were on nine to eleven and sort of 520 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:39.079 that run up to uh, you know for Afghanistan. 521 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:43.799 Yeah, so that was always uh kind of makes an 522 00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.960 interesting story on nine to eleven, you know, and then 523 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:51.680 in the moments before the uh, the first plane hit 524 00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:56.480 the first tower. I was sitting in a pub in Darwin, Australia, 525 00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.400 you know, with with my team leaders dranking beer. So 526 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:02.519 I was, uh, it was a platoon sergeant for a 527 00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:05.519 force free conplatoon and we had just left on deployment 528 00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:08.119 on the ships with the Marine Expeditionary Unit that I was. 529 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.279 I was talking about. Our first stop had been Darwin 530 00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:15.559 and we spent a couple of days there training with 531 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.920 the Australians, some snipers, so we had had a range, 532 00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:22.680 we're out shooting. We finally wrapped up, came back, cleaned up, 533 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:25.720 and uh had our first night out on the town. 534 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.279 And so the Australia if you haven't been, and I 535 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:32.039 haven't been back in a while, but uh, you know 536 00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:36.599 there's the there's the woman. The man ratio is out 537 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:39.519 of kilter, right, so there's all of the young guys 538 00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:42.759 were like super excited because there's there's tons of tons 539 00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:45.160 of ladies running around. I had, uh, you know, I 540 00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:49.000 was was married. I had my team leaders were all married, 541 00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:50.960 and we're like, hey, let's just go find someplace quiet, 542 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:54.359 get some beers. So we find the an Irish pub. 543 00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:59.079 Of course there's one everywhere kiddy O'Shea's Irish pubs. So 544 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:04.200 we're kind of tucked in the corner drinking beer and yeah, 545 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.319 there's playing soccer on the big screen above the bar, 546 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:09.839 and then it switches to the to the first tower, 547 00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:15.799 and yeah, within minutes the Marines, who were designated as 548 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.640 the shore patrol to try to keep people out of trouble, 549 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:21.480 come running into the bar, yelling get back to the boats, 550 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:23.920 back to the boats. And then they were just down 551 00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:28.359 the street yelling in every bar. So we eventually we 552 00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:30.920 finished our beer and then kind of finished all the 553 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.839 beer they would let us buy, and then eventually made 554 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.599 our way back to the boat. And when we woke 555 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:39.240 up the next morning, they had somehow managed to wrangle 556 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:41.880 you know, everybody, and we were on to see. 557 00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:47.240 And so what was you know, your unit's mission at 558 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:48.839 that point, I mean, were you kind of just like 559 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:51.559 out at sea waiting for further orders what happened? 560 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:57.839 We had already had a prior commitment to go into 561 00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:01.319 East Moor, which just kind of off the coast, a 562 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:06.119 little tiny country, and they had just been on the 563 00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:10.839 back end of a pretty nasty civil war and they 564 00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.599 were had won their independence and they were going. I 565 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.640 think it was. I think it was on the It 566 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:24.319 was about this time. It's just before it was maybe 567 00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:27.279 the tenth or eleventh, or the tenth, twelfth or the thirteenth. 568 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:31.240 They were going to be signing their constitution and so 569 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:38.920 it's a big event. The Navy commodore and the R commander, 570 00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:42.680 the MEW commander had to attend this thing. So there 571 00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:47.319 was obviously security concerns. So we wound up providing a 572 00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:52.000 security detail for our commander and the Seals provided one 573 00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:55.559 for the commodore. So we were kind of run around 574 00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:59.039 east More with those guys for the day, and then 575 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:03.519 from there we kind of headed straight for the closest 576 00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:08.279 coast to Afghanistan, which was Pakistan. Went by October we 577 00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:14.160 were had established some FARPs and and uh. It's got 578 00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:17.960 a prestaging basis in aunt ja Alabad and and Uh 579 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:23.240 and then by November we were in Afghanistan. Cool. 580 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:27.200 So after so many years of waiting, finally got to 581 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:29.920 answer the call that you had heard the balloon went up. 582 00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:34.960 Yeah, yeah, and I still you know, you know, we 583 00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:39.640 got there. We were I got our feet unders for 584 00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:44.680 a couple of days and we're tasked with doing a 585 00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:48.480 vehicle reconnaissance to find a route from from where we were, 586 00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:51.640 which was called fob Rhino got out in the out 587 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:55.079 in the middle of nowhere up to Kanahar, and so 588 00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.480 me and my boys went out, uh, you know, left 589 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:03.359 at night, spent two nights about one hundred miles of 590 00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:07.319 kind of cross compartment going through the desert finding a route, 591 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:13.199 and uh eventually brought up a larger unit to uh 592 00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:18.440 just kind of established an essentially big patrol base and 593 00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:23.960 start trying to stir some shut up. We spent you know, 594 00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:26.519 we were going out every night looking for you know, 595 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.159 at the time, really bad satellite images of you know, 596 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:34.480 expected you know, Taliban physicians, and we'd get there and 597 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:36.159 it'd be, you know, a bunch of rocks and a 598 00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:39.440 couple of trees, and we they thought they were vehicles. 599 00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:42.719 And it's the you know, things have absolutely improved over 600 00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:47.880 the last twenty years. But we got I got pulled 601 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:54.920 in on the December seventh and by the battalion commander 602 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.440 that we were we were out with, and he was like, Hey, 603 00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:02.360 I need you guys to go out and UH interdict 604 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:06.119 traffic coming between Kandahar and to the to the west 605 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:13.519 towards Flash Gagar, So we you know, kind of came 606 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:18.079 up with a plan. We weren't going to uh at 607 00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:21.559 the time, everybody was declared hostile, so I mean, and 608 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:25.519 you know, we were within our rights to just you know, 609 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:27.679 set up machine guns and blast and a guard that 610 00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:30.960 went down the road. You know, I wasn't I wasn't 611 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:34.920 cool with that. You know, I could imagine, you know, 612 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.320 I didn't want my guys to approaching the vehicle that 613 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:39.880 we shot up and finding a bunch of you know, 614 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:42.159 a family that was trying to get out or whatever. 615 00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.400 So you know, they kind of if Ganny's had been 616 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:48.400 through enough of that with the Taliban, so we you know, 617 00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:50.320 I put it to the team leaders. They came up 618 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:55.880 with a plan to execute a essentially what was close 619 00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:57.960 to a mission that we trained for quite a bit, 620 00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.239 a vehicle takedown. You know, when you have a vehicle 621 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:02.840 that you've got to stop and then you've got to 622 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:05.719 determine whether the bad guys or not are in it, 623 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:07.800 and then uh, you know, shoot them as they are 624 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:12.199 right or or snatch them up. And uh, that's that's 625 00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:14.519 what we wound up kind of setting up. We strung 626 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:20.199 constantina wire across the road. Kind of positioned ourselves off. 627 00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:22.920 I put one of my other vehicles on the base 628 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.519 of fires and k things went to shed and uh, 629 00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:29.519 I was talking with air and pretty soon they let 630 00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:33.519 us know that there was a small convoy that was 631 00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:37.320 headed our way out of Kanadahr. And at that point, 632 00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.480 you know, setting there and this is December, Afghanistan is 633 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:44.800 fucking freezing cold. We're kind of sitting there shivering, you know. 634 00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:47.639 And I told everybody, I'm like, hey, man, I think 635 00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:52.039 I'm like an anti you know, bullet magnet. Right. I've 636 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:54.760 I've been uh in the Marine Corps at this point 637 00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:57.559 for fourteen years, and I've I barely heard, you know, 638 00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:00.719 a couple of shots fired in anger and and you know, 639 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.440 I haven't returned fire on any of them. So I 640 00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:06.280 don't uh, I don't know that's going to happen tonight. 641 00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:08.239 So I was, you know, kind of talking to I 642 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:13.039 didn't want guys to uh yeah, yeah, I wanted to 643 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:16.119 one kind of keep it light, you know, because we 644 00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:18.800 were either gonna do some shit or we weren't right. 645 00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:20.920 And you don't want uh, you know, you don't want 646 00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.280 guys so hyper that they're uh, you know, jerking the 647 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:29.119 trigger at anything. So you know, we talked just about, hey, 648 00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:32.239 you know we've trained, we've done this ship a million 649 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.800 times and practiced, right, you know, there's nothing different than that, 650 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:39.440 So let's just treat it like that. You know, we've 651 00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:43.159 rehearsed it not you know, there was one of the 652 00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:44.920 things that was kind of pounded in my head as 653 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.320 a young guy. You don't rehearse and tell you you 654 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.079 get it right. You rehearse and tell you can't get 655 00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:51.840 it wrong. So, uh, you know, and I had kind 656 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.199 of tried to push out on my guys. So eventually 657 00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:59.000 the lead vehicle of this convoy, the other two vehicles 658 00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:02.159 which were larger like five ton trucks, had pulled off, 659 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:05.400 and the lead vehicle was kind of scouting ahead and 660 00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:09.239 it pulled up. You know, shot past us saw the 661 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:11.480 Constantino wire because we had hung kin lights on it, 662 00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:14.280 and it said, screw it, I'm going for it. And uh, 663 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:17.800 watching a vehicle, you know, it's sixty miles an hour 664 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:23.000 hit Constantino wires, pretty fucking astounding, all right, it you 665 00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:27.639 don't get far, and it didn't get far. It's got 666 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.199 gets snatched snatched up. You know, as soon as that 667 00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:32.599 wire wrapped around the axles. It it shuts them down 668 00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:36.599 pretty quick. We had, you know, popped up onto the 669 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:40.199 road way behind them. And as soon as we did, 670 00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:41.960 I could see, you know, sitting in the back of 671 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:47.440 this dually or a yeah, dual cab truck. There were 672 00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:52.199 you know, three guys you know with ak's. The front 673 00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.840 was was stuffed full of guys. You know, it was 674 00:38:56.360 --> 00:38:58.880 like a clown car. The back of the bed of 675 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:02.840 the truck was packed full of boxes and crates and 676 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:04.360 things like that. So we didn't know what it was 677 00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:08.159 in them, but uh, my vehicle stops. I jump out 678 00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:10.960 of the vehicle commander's seat kind of rush up, and 679 00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:13.559 you know, my guys kind of roll in behind me 680 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:16.920 and I yelled, hey, put your hands up. I don't 681 00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:20.159 don't quite know where that came from, uh, but uh, 682 00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:24.639 you know, it was giving them a chance. The funny 683 00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:28.000 thing is that at that at that moment, and it 684 00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:30.039 was the first time I'd experienced it, but I had 685 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:32.360 I had read about it, you know, like Grossman and 686 00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:36.880 on killing the like time distortion, how time you know, changes, 687 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.679 and how like a lot of you know, you know, 688 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.480 once loud noises started, once shooting started, it didn't sound 689 00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:47.360 like shooting, right. It was just like little pops kind 690 00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:50.719 of the visual perceptual airing where you kind of your 691 00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:53.079 world kind of starts to collapse down onto the threat 692 00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:55.639 in front of you. And so all of these things 693 00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:00.639 started happening. And luckily, like I knew what were because 694 00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:02.679 I had, you know, like I said, we read about it. 695 00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:08.519 I talked to guys about it. The three guys in 696 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:13.039 the bed of the truck were obviously the primary threat. 697 00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:16.400 The guy in the middle of the guys on either 698 00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:19.639 side had because it was so cold, had their ak's 699 00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:23.199 bundled up in blankets and their hands bundled up. And 700 00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:25.719 the guy in the middle, who was an old you 701 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:28.559 know mood, you know he'd been it wasn't his first rodeo. 702 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:32.480 You know, you could see his hands were red, you know, 703 00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:35.280 but he had his hands on his weapon, and uh, 704 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:40.119 it was you know, it was comical how slowly he was, 705 00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:42.559 like he seemed to be moving trying to bring his 706 00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:48.280 weapon up on me. And so you know, I shoot him, 707 00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:52.320 you know, And you know, one of the weird things, 708 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:54.800 you know, is that there's a thing called persistence shooting, 709 00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:57.719 where you know, if you shoot someone and what you'd 710 00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.000 expect to happen, doesn't happen, then you just keep shooting, 711 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:01.639 all right, you expect the guy to fall down. He 712 00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:04.000 doesn't fall down, and he couldn't because he was propped 713 00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:07.280 up in all these crates. But uh, I shot him 714 00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:10.599 a number of times more than enough before I went 715 00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:12.519 ahead and and did you know what we had been 716 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.400 you know, trained to do and shoot a turning into 717 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:19.280 a box drill. But by this point, you know, I've 718 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:21.320 got you know, my guy. Other guys are are up 719 00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:26.000 there with me. They're engaging. And then the constantina wire 720 00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:28.599 had run down the length of the vehicles, so they 721 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.119 were having trouble opening the doors. They're trying to roll 722 00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:33.639 down windows and jump out the windows, and it was 723 00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:38.079 it turned into a kind of a comical scene. But 724 00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:41.119 the uh about that time, the bed of the truck 725 00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:44.320 burst into flames and it spread very very quickly. I 726 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:46.920 mean it was it was switch which led to people 727 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:48.280 that were still in the bed of the or in 728 00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.280 the cab of the truck to really try to get 729 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.599 the hell out. So so now they're they're climbing out 730 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:55.719 and we're popping them. They're falling in the constantina wire 731 00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:58.400 and it's just turned into a kind of a ship show. 732 00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:04.079 But uh, some start popping off and at the time 733 00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:08.599 I thought they were, you know, being fired. I didn't 734 00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:11.719 realize that they were cooking off that quickly. So we 735 00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:15.840 start bounding back and then uh, you know, RPGs rockets 736 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.639 start like sailing, you know, filling the night sky. They're 737 00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:21.639 not armed, and they you know, they weren't launched. Uh 738 00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:23.360 they were you know, they were they were cooking off. 739 00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:26.480 So they're like spiraling, you know, through the air. So 740 00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:30.599 he got a little a little uh spicy, I guess, 741 00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:33.559 uh for a little bit, but uh, you know, we 742 00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:36.239 pulled back, you know, make sure we had uh you know, 743 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:39.280 got our main weapons and equipment kind of check and 744 00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:42.199 and that was that was really it. We brought in 745 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.480 fast movers on the other two vehicles that were sitting 746 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.800 out in the desert, and really that kind of uh 747 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:53.599 you know, other than the fifth group guys, they were 748 00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:57.119 up in the mountains. That was the first kind of 749 00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:58.880 engagement of Afghanistan. 750 00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:05.079 So as you get back to the United States after 751 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:09.440 that deployment, tell us about how this bold new experiment 752 00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:11.079 called Detachment one comes about. 753 00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:15.960 Absolutely, So we started, I mean by what we didn't 754 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.360 know is by that time, by you know, the middle 755 00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:22.480 of December, the Secretary of Defense had already made the 756 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.639 decision that there needed to be more special operations. Special 757 00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:29.360 Operations Command was going to kind of take the lead 758 00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:34.599 for the war on terror. So you know, the Army 759 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:38.079 was told, you know, make more green berets and you know, rangers, 760 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:42.800 the Navy, more seals, Air Force, more CCT guys and pjs, 761 00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:46.679 and he said, hey, Marine Corps, this time, you guys 762 00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:50.400 are going to participate. And still the Marine Corps was like, nah, man, 763 00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:56.159 we're rummy, We're good. We don't don't want to do that. 764 00:43:56.519 --> 00:44:02.400 And it took some doing eventually, and to be honest, 765 00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:06.159 SOCOM wasn't too eager to have Marines on board either, 766 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:12.000 from you know, everything I gathered. So there was there 767 00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:18.000 was actually about a year time kind of gap between 768 00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:20.039 the time I got back in two thousand and two 769 00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:22.920 and the time that one stood up, So there was 770 00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:24.920 there was a lot going on kind of behind the 771 00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:28.760 scenes that I didn't know about. But ultimately the decision 772 00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:33.119 was that the Marine Corps would provide a small unit. 773 00:44:33.159 --> 00:44:35.440 They would serve as a proof of concept for a 774 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:41.239 couple of years. So they would train, deploy with a 775 00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:44.960 Special Operations architecture over top of them, and then be 776 00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:49.280 evaluated on how well they did. So when I got 777 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:51.840 back from that deployment, I was told that, hey, you've 778 00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:54.119 really been here now too long. You've got to go somewhere. 779 00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:57.679 So luckily I just just went down the street to 780 00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:01.000 the Special Operations Training group and ran the took over 781 00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:05.280 the Urban Sniper of course, which was was great to 782 00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:09.079 get get back behind the gun seriously and got re 783 00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:13.000 uh you know, definitely bust the rust off on my 784 00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:15.960 shoot skills. So but that job only lasted for about 785 00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:19.440 a year because you know, I got kind of tapped 786 00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:23.159 on the shoulder at a meeting and Colonel Coates, who 787 00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:26.880 was was selected to be our boss. It was like, hey, 788 00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:30.360 you know, Ranger, do you uh, you know, I've got 789 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.280 tapped for this thing? Do you want to in? And 790 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:34.719 of course you know it's you know, not a hard 791 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.639 question to answer. Hell yeah, I went in and uh, 792 00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:41.239 you know, he asked me to be a team leader. 793 00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:45.719 So they were going to be initially four teams. We 794 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.559 were the charter was for seventy eight men that eventually 795 00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:54.360 grew closer to one hundred, but of that one hundred men, 796 00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:59.360 there was roughly a third were forced reconnaissance Marines, about 797 00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.400 a third were intel. And that's really what kind of 798 00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:07.239 set us apart, was the huge intel support that we had, 799 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:10.519 and then the other third ran the gamut from you know, 800 00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:16.679 communicators and fires guys and administrative guys and mechanics and 801 00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:21.039 everything else that should mean to to run in a unit. 802 00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:23.920 So that that's small an element, I mean one, then 803 00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:26.559 we're talking about like thirty five forty, like a platoon 804 00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:28.679 sized element of operators, and then the rest of the 805 00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:29.679 unit is enablers. 806 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:35.159 Yeah, and we were I think about thirty so, you know, 807 00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:39.320 and that was with our Navy corman that are you know, 808 00:46:39.719 --> 00:46:42.360 each each team had a corman. So initially I think 809 00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:48.559 I had a a seven yeah, seven man team. I had, 810 00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:52.519 uh me, five guys, five marines had a corman. You know, 811 00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:58.159 one communicator was in there, and uh, you know, I 812 00:46:58.440 --> 00:47:03.079 was the the your guy. I was an E seven, 813 00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:06.880 you know, I put on got promoted to gunny right 814 00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.119 before nine to eleven. And but the other guys, we 815 00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:12.119 were guys that I had kind of looked up to 816 00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:16.239 as being like the you know, uh, like the next 817 00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:18.760 senior class or whatever, you know, guys who had had 818 00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:21.199 a couple of years on me. And so I was 819 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:25.880 and I don't know if it was anybody else felt 820 00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:27.599 that way, but I've you know, and I talk a 821 00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:30.039 lot of in the book about the idea of imposture syndrome, 822 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:32.920 all right, not quite thinking that you're you deserve to 823 00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:36.039 be where you are, and you know, people bitch and 824 00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:38.400 moan about it a lot. I mean, I'm thankful every 825 00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:40.599 day for it. You know, I think it push pushed 826 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:43.960 me to you know kind of uh, you know, always 827 00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:48.039 strive to be better, but to prove myself. But so 828 00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:50.760 I told my team very early on, like, hey, guys, 829 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:54.719 we're going to do whatever mission you know, ship mission 830 00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:57.440 needs to be done, you know, will be the ones 831 00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:00.320 to do it. So, you know, particularly as we started, 832 00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:04.639 I mean, because I was coming from uh that role 833 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:07.480 as a sniper instructor, you know, I got put in 834 00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:10.840 charge of all kind of sniping overseeing our sniping program, 835 00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:17.400 which led you know, came in handy later on. I 836 00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:19.559 had picked a couple of the guys that I picked 837 00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:22.239 had worked for me in that in that role, so 838 00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:26.239 we had a very robust, you know, sniper capability that 839 00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:33.320 wasn't as terribly common, and uh so then particularly once 840 00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:35.880 we started doing direct action missions. You know, everybody wants 841 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.320 to be the you know, the guys blowing the door 842 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:41.199 off and clearing the house. I was like, hey man, 843 00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:43.079 we'll do the you know, we'll do the RNs on 844 00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:46.599 the objective. We'll uh you know, which my guys would 845 00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:50.239 bitch and moan about sometimes, but uh, you know, be 846 00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:53.320 the the guys who uh you know, went in a 847 00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:55.440 few days before, laid in the snow or the mud 848 00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:59.800 or whatever, and took pictures and reported back. And that ultimately, 849 00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:04.440 uh kind of just led to my team, our team 850 00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.280 being the go to guys for anything that was you know, 851 00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:10.960 more challenging or you're kind of out of the ordinary. 852 00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:14.119 And at this time period, I mean, it's very interesting 853 00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:16.199 what you write about, you know, the whole process of 854 00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:18.840 standing up that one you were also involved in like 855 00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:21.320 some R and D and like going down to uh 856 00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:24.760 what you went down somewhere and we're working with with 857 00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.360 an R and D guy developing new gear and stuff. 858 00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:32.639 Yeah. So I had one of the great things about 859 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:35.719 First Force Freecon during that time when Colonel Coachs was 860 00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:39.079 the senior was that He was always pushing us to 861 00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:41.800 you know, go out and you know, find new stuff, 862 00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:45.800 all right, new gear. We were, uh, within the Marine Corps. 863 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:50.159 We were the you know, the I'm pretty sure the 864 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:53.519 first guys to start running a points on our uh 865 00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:57.639 first on our MP fives and then uh, you know 866 00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.800 when we got in force, throwing them on on in force. 867 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:03.360 There was just a lot of first and a lot 868 00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:05.320 of it, Why can't you just use iron sights? 869 00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:08.760 John's what's wrong with iron sights? 870 00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:11.880 You could do that, and it's uh, you got you 871 00:50:11.960 --> 00:50:13.920 gotta be able to shoot with iron sights. But uh, 872 00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:16.000 you know, I'm always a big fan of anything that 873 00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:22.519 makes makes the job easier. The uh So, so we 874 00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:28.639 had a pretty we were accustomed to doing that, to 875 00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.159 going to like seeking out vendors and things like that, 876 00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:36.199 and and uh we had had a really bad helicopter 877 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:38.840 accident a couple of years before when I was at 878 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:44.199 First Force ninety nine, and uh, helicopter was a bunch 879 00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:49.639 of our guys were going to do a ship takedown 880 00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:51.519 and so they were going to fast robe onto the 881 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:55.679 deck of a ship. The pilot came in and misjudged 882 00:50:55.719 --> 00:50:59.719 the height and caught his skid on a net the 883 00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:03.400 like big steel in that flipped the helo over and 884 00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:08.280 they sunk. So we had a bunch of our guys died, 885 00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:10.880 a crew chief and the helicopter died. And one of 886 00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:12.519 the things that came out of that was that the 887 00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:17.320 equipment that we were wearing was crazy heavy. Our bullet 888 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:23.000 bouncers and everything were very very early generation stuff. So 889 00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:27.679 when that happened, I got grabbed to go and work 890 00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:30.639 with the Marine Corps to build a better suite of 891 00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:36.880 kind of amphibious, capable, more survivable gear. Yeah, and and 892 00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:39.360 that definitely kind of put me, you know in that 893 00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:44.119 world with so Natic laboratories is the the Army Research 894 00:51:44.199 --> 00:51:46.480 Center where they make m R. E's and boots and 895 00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:51.440 everything in between. Uh, I got you know to go 896 00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:54.519 up there and got to make a lot of contacts 897 00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:57.920 and friends. So they came in handy, you know when 898 00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:03.119 we came time to start kitting ourselves out for because 899 00:52:03.199 --> 00:52:06.880 even in ninety nine, when we started building that equipment suite, 900 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:09.960 it was you know, green green camouflage, you know, that 901 00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:13.159 was that's what everything was. We still assumed that we're 902 00:52:13.159 --> 00:52:15.559 going to be in the jungle somewhere, you know, even 903 00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:18.760 though we'd had you know, the previous war had been 904 00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:23.079 as short as it was in the desert. But so 905 00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:28.719 that was you know, you know, making you know, building 906 00:52:28.760 --> 00:52:33.039 out a flat earth or tan you know, sweety gear 907 00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:36.960 and taking a look at it. After some time we 908 00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:40.920 had in the inn and we developed a cutaway process 909 00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:44.679 for the for body armor that that hadn't existed before that, 910 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:49.079 you know, the use of spare their bottles and kind 911 00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:51.519 of a litany of you know, one of the marines 912 00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:54.639 that in the old days we used to back when 913 00:52:55.239 --> 00:52:59.880 telephones had cords on them, we would uh going off 914 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:03.079 and steal their phone cords and use the phone card 915 00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:07.079 to make a lanyard for our pistol. Right, a couple 916 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:10.920 of fisient leaders, you know the flexcuff with little Tonys 917 00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:13.440 flex guft and that was that was how you secured 918 00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.519 your because if you're fast roping, you know, onto the 919 00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:18.800 deck of a ship, your pistol comes out. You know, 920 00:53:18.920 --> 00:53:23.800 it could be disastrous. So you know, one of the 921 00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:27.400 marines was very fortunate that he was able to break 922 00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:33.800 that the telephone cord or the connection on the telephone cord. 923 00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:37.119 So you know, we got people to make breakaway lanyards 924 00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:39.840 and the kind of the list went on of innovations 925 00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:40.800 that came out of that. 926 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:46.480 And so tell us then about you know, the first 927 00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:50.559 and really only deployment that Detachment one did to Iraq. 928 00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:53.760 Where did you guys deploy to and sort of what 929 00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:57.000 was like this the idea of what this deployment would 930 00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:59.639 be versus what it was when you know, you guys 931 00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:01.440 land on the ground and things start to change. 932 00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:07.840 Yeah, so we stood up in I should know the date, 933 00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:13.920 March two thousand and three, and for like you said, 934 00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:16.119 we had no equipment and things for a while. But 935 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:20.800 as we started getting outfitted and started prepping, we really 936 00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:23.400 believed and I don't know if we just it was 937 00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:25.960 our own what we wanted to believe, but thought that 938 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:28.440 we were going to going to Afghanistan, and it kind 939 00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:31.920 of assumed, I think, because we were you know, reconnaissance 940 00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:36.440 was you know, one of our missions, that that's what 941 00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:38.440 we would do. So we started doing a lot of 942 00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:42.119 preparation for that, you know, a lot pretty heavily in sniping, 943 00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:48.320 heavily in deep ground reconnaissance, vehicle mounted reconnaissance. And about 944 00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:52.079 halfway through the time that we had to train, the 945 00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:54.599 decision was finally made that we would be going to 946 00:54:54.679 --> 00:55:01.039 Iraq much more kinetically focused deployment. We were going to 947 00:55:02.440 --> 00:55:06.719 serve essentially as a SEAL or NSW task in it, 948 00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:08.639 so we would be a task in it underneath a 949 00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:12.159 Naval Special Warfare Task Group that's who we would report to. 950 00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:17.960 So we get on the grounds in early two thousand 951 00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:23.400 and four and are assigned to hang out kind of 952 00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:28.599 in an area around Baghdad. So we were near one 953 00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:31.559 of Saddam's kind of near the by app the compound, 954 00:55:31.639 --> 00:55:35.559 the airport, and near in Baghdad. That's where we lived, 955 00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:40.679 and we're you know, we got on the ground to 956 00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:44.800 find out. Normally, you know, when you do a turnover, 957 00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:46.559 you know, you get in country, you do a turnover 958 00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:50.159 with another unit, right REPTOA do a relief in place, 959 00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:53.519 and they're like, hey, here's all of the information that 960 00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:55.400 we have. Here's all the bad guys that we haven't 961 00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:59.119 gone after. So we didn't have that. There had not 962 00:55:59.239 --> 00:56:03.519 been a seal a platoon in place there, so we 963 00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:06.000 were really kind of put in a position where we 964 00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:10.039 had to make our own luck. Right we had and 965 00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:13.239 we we weren't. You know, it's a weird situation. We 966 00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:16.639 and the seals wound up being great. The commander that 967 00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:19.159 we worked for was very supportive and and you know, 968 00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:23.000 a straight shooter, but we also didn't quite know who 969 00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:25.760 you could trust, you know, you know, who is had 970 00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:28.519 your best interest at Harton, who was hoping that you 971 00:56:28.840 --> 00:56:34.440 wouldn't be successful. Yeah, So so we had you know, 972 00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:37.840 one of our and it's really where those big crew 973 00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:41.360 of Intel guys came to play. A Couple of things 974 00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:47.320 happened that seemed to be uh, you know, unfortunate initially, 975 00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:50.360 but we wound up being the best thing that could 976 00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:54.320 have happened. So the seal commander that was owned us 977 00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:58.119 was like like, hey, you guys have got like thirty 978 00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:00.800 Intel dudes. You know I don't have that many, you know, 979 00:57:01.320 --> 00:57:04.360 in my whole task in it. So he was as 980 00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:06.159 was his right. He was like, Hey, I'm going to 981 00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:08.559 take some of these guys and send them over to 982 00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:11.360 to work with one of my seal platoons over here. 983 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.639 And these guys over here, of course we're pissed because 984 00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:18.119 with my team I had I had my own human guy, 985 00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:23.239 my own second guy, my own geo spatial guy. So 986 00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:26.119 that changed the way that we operated. But what we 987 00:57:26.559 --> 00:57:28.920 quickly came to realize was that now we had our 988 00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:32.480 eyes and ears, you know, attached to everybody all over 989 00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:35.559 the country. So it wasn't long before you know, these 990 00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:41.039 guys are just talking and you know realize that, hey, 991 00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:44.880 we've got probably a better kind of overall picture of 992 00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:48.039 intel of what's going on in the country than anybody does. 993 00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:52.880 And one of our Intel analysts was bored, you know, 994 00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:55.960 just kind of digging through Intel reports and found a 995 00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:03.159 report that about Iraqi interpreter who was working for the 996 00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:07.559 US that had been executed, and he started here, He's 997 00:58:09.039 --> 00:58:11.039 thought he had read something else. So we started digging 998 00:58:11.079 --> 00:58:14.840 back through these Intel reports and realized that over the 999 00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:17.320 span of the past six months there had been like 1000 00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:21.480 twenty of these interpreters who had been killed. And being 1001 00:58:21.559 --> 00:58:23.559 a you know, an Intel guy, he started, you know, 1002 00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:27.199 trying to connect dots, and you know, it's like stringing 1003 00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:31.519 the yarn across the wall or whatever with pictures and things. 1004 00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:34.239 I don't know how he did it, but ultimately he 1005 00:58:34.360 --> 00:58:36.960 came up and was was like, hey, here's this this 1006 00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:40.159 one interpreter that's like connected, you know, to all of 1007 00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:47.360 these dead interpreters. So, uh, it was the interpreter was 1008 00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:50.519 a woman. You know, the only way to that we 1009 00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:52.519 knew to get her was to go to the place 1010 00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:55.679 where she was working, you know, during the day, which 1011 00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:59.920 which meant, uh, you know, low profile, you know, being 1012 00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:03.880 vehicles kind of go going in low profile. So that's 1013 00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:08.440 when all of the you know, the taking, the taking 1014 00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:10.719 the missions nobody else wanted to kind of paid off. So, 1015 00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:13.360 you know, the all of us team leaders gather around 1016 00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:15.400 and of course it's the first mission that we're doing, 1017 00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:20.559 so everybody wants it, and uh, the decision was like, hey, Daily, 1018 00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:22.039 you know you're the you're the guy for this one 1019 00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:25.000 because you've you've done all, You've done all the the 1020 00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:27.800 odd you know, one off type of things. So I 1021 00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:29.679 was I had because there was a female we were 1022 00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:32.920 going after. I had to take a female to searcher 1023 00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:35.800 and the only female we had available to us was 1024 00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:40.920 a Polish brom operator. She was the only female operator 1025 00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:45.480 that they had, and she was, uh phenomenal or she 1026 00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:49.480 was you know, would put you know, any you know, 1027 00:59:49.519 --> 00:59:51.400 I always think of her when people talk about what 1028 00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:55.280 women are capable of. Right, she had Uh it was 1029 00:59:55.599 --> 00:59:59.519 was I think their most you know, lethal sniper that 1030 00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:04.679 they had. She was incredibly talented, but so she came 1031 01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:07.079 with me another marine and we had to take a 1032 01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:12.360 seal kind of a human guy with us, and you know, 1033 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:17.039 one of our intel guys, Sibby's in a vehicle driving 1034 01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:19.239 around bag dead, and it just so happened that we 1035 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:21.840 kept like we were like five minutes behind her, you know, 1036 01:00:22.039 --> 01:00:24.840 everywhere we stopped or we missed her by like a 1037 01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:27.599 day or two. And so we finally get to a 1038 01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:30.280 place where where she had most recently been and were 1039 01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:33.960 able to get her to come in, you know, under 1040 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:36.280 the like the guys and picking up a paycheck or whatever, 1041 01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:41.000 and grabbed her and grabbed the man that was driving her, 1042 01:00:43.559 --> 01:00:45.599 and then we get her back. And at this point, 1043 01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:49.760 this is before the Abu Gray Grave thing, just just 1044 01:00:50.039 --> 01:00:53.280 like weeks before, but we were able to have our own, 1045 01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:59.719 uh interrogation facility and brought her in and once they 1046 01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:03.119 started talking to her, pretty quickly realized that she was 1047 01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:06.320 she was the one. She was responsible for all these deaths, 1048 01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:11.119 but she was unwittingly responsible. She had uh, a hot 1049 01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:16.199 looking Iraqi dude had you know, approached her and you know, 1050 01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:18.400 they hit it off, and she was she was not 1051 01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:21.239 deserving of a hot looking Iraqi. Dude, she was an 1052 01:01:21.519 --> 01:01:25.119 elderly not elderly, but an older uh you know, an 1053 01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:28.119 older lady. Uh so should have been some red flags, 1054 01:01:28.159 --> 01:01:31.719 but uh you know, and he, however, got her to 1055 01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:36.639 hand over uh you know, phone lists and information for 1056 01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:41.440 other contracted uh interpreters. So when she found out, she 1057 01:01:41.679 --> 01:01:43.760 was you know, there's a saying that, hell hath no 1058 01:01:43.840 --> 01:01:46.719 fury like a woman scorn she was. She was fucking pissed, 1059 01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:53.400 uh like like a really fucking pissed. So she was like, hey, 1060 01:01:53.480 --> 01:01:56.480 here's his address, here's his friend's address, there's this other guy. 1061 01:01:57.079 --> 01:01:59.239 And so that night, you know, we went out, uh 1062 01:02:00.199 --> 01:02:05.639 hit hit his house, his place of business, and his 1063 01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.440 place of business. The business that he was in was 1064 01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:11.360 apparently making bombs because it was just a bomb making factory. 1065 01:02:12.760 --> 01:02:15.039 And then from there, you know, you grab computers, you 1066 01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:18.440 grab explosives, you grab paperwork, and then assess there's leading 1067 01:02:18.519 --> 01:02:21.039 mission to mission. And after that we were like, you know, 1068 01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:25.440 just every night we were out about John out. 1069 01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:27.920 Of curiosity was one of the reasons where you guys 1070 01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:31.000 kind of had to pick you know, whatever mission you 1071 01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:34.800 get is because because you were late to the party 1072 01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:38.760 when it came to so calm and that people like 1073 01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:42.840 I think some people think you guys are interchangeable with seals, right, 1074 01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.400 and if Seals already had this mission, why are we going. 1075 01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:46.639 To give it to this new group of guys. 1076 01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:52.480 I'm not saying you guys are interchangeable with Seals. I'm 1077 01:02:52.480 --> 01:02:54.159 just saying that sometimes I think that's the. 1078 01:02:55.760 --> 01:03:01.960 Yeah, I don't well, I think like I was willing 1079 01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:05.480 to take any mission that uh, you know, in training 1080 01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:07.320 because I wanted to be the guy that they relied on, 1081 01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:11.679 you know, when it wasn't in this case. You know, 1082 01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:14.679 I think we were we just we wanted to prove ourselves, 1083 01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:16.239 you know, we were so we were going to take 1084 01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:19.920 anything that they came down, and we really we knew 1085 01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:22.400 that it was going to have to you know, Intel 1086 01:03:22.519 --> 01:03:24.760 was going to have to drive OPS and then ops Intel, 1087 01:03:24.840 --> 01:03:26.920 so we were going to have to make our own luck, 1088 01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:30.400 build our own target packages. And really once we got that, 1089 01:03:30.679 --> 01:03:33.880 that got the first one knocked out. It was we were, 1090 01:03:34.599 --> 01:03:36.519 you know, as busy as as we could be. We 1091 01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:40.360 were turning uh uh stuff away, and then I think 1092 01:03:40.440 --> 01:03:46.079 we pretty quickly established a reputation as being a unit 1093 01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:52.000 that would you do a good job, not step on 1094 01:03:52.239 --> 01:03:54.920 other people's toes. There was a lot of especially at 1095 01:03:54.920 --> 01:03:57.079 that time kind of it was a little wild West 1096 01:03:57.280 --> 01:04:01.159 in in Baghdad. At that point, there were you know, 1097 01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:05.079 we started, you know, working with Oda's that had you know, 1098 01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:09.639 tons of of you know, sources and tons of targets, 1099 01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:12.039 but you know, because of the way they were split up, 1100 01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:15.840 didn't have the ass to action them, right, so you know, 1101 01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:19.000 they you know, they would say, hey, we've got to 1102 01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:21.320 hit this guy's house, but it's he's one of our sources, 1103 01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:24.480 so you know, please don't blow his door off, you know, 1104 01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:27.840 or please don't. And so we're like, hey, man, yeah 1105 01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:29.840 we can, you know, don't fuck his house up too bad. 1106 01:04:29.960 --> 01:04:32.119 Yeah we can. Uh, we can do that. And so 1107 01:04:32.239 --> 01:04:35.199 we pretty quickly got a reputation of being somebody that 1108 01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:37.719 other people wanted to work with. And then it, like 1109 01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:39.840 I said, it just became the point where we were 1110 01:04:40.920 --> 01:04:41.719 incredibly busy. 1111 01:04:42.039 --> 01:04:44.920 But I don't know, I'm sorry, I was just gonna 1112 01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:46.760 ask who were you guys using us, like your blocking 1113 01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:49.639 positions and and security and stuff like that. 1114 01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:52.440 Was it other marines or were there like army units 1115 01:04:52.480 --> 01:04:53.360 that you guys should. 1116 01:04:53.199 --> 01:04:56.920 Use Most of the time, it was it was the 1117 01:04:57.039 --> 01:05:01.039 other sixty guys in the in the unit. So we 1118 01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:04.280 had one of the things that one of the things 1119 01:05:04.360 --> 01:05:07.000 that absolutely made the unit as special as it was 1120 01:05:07.719 --> 01:05:11.239 was that Colonel Coates's philosophy was that you know, everybody, 1121 01:05:11.480 --> 01:05:15.440 everybody fights, so we would you know, run you know, 1122 01:05:15.519 --> 01:05:18.440 he would have us put on shooting packages for the 1123 01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:22.280 all the support guys, you know, all the enablers, all 1124 01:05:22.320 --> 01:05:25.599 the intel dudes were everybody was kidded out the same, right, 1125 01:05:27.320 --> 01:05:30.880 So there was there were times when things got got 1126 01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:32.840 a little bit icy. You aren't quite sure about the 1127 01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:35.360 reservists that that had been attached to us as an 1128 01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:38.760 armor who was man in the fifty count but h 1129 01:05:41.519 --> 01:05:45.039 it h. We would always keep one of our teams 1130 01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:49.400 uh kind of in reserve and with with the vehicles. 1131 01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:52.760 So usually we'd have like one operator with with each 1132 01:05:52.880 --> 01:05:57.039 vehicle to kind of just control the fight in and 1133 01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:00.079 around that that vehicle. But there were occasions where we 1134 01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:04.880 were able to bring us army units or even some 1135 01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:10.440 Iraqis once let's say got up and running, or other 1136 01:06:10.519 --> 01:06:13.559 marine units. The push, it was kind of a big 1137 01:06:13.599 --> 01:06:17.000 push to keep us away from working with other marines 1138 01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:20.440 because it was kind of the proof of concept was 1139 01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:23.480 supposed to determine if we could work outside of the 1140 01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:27.239 Marine Corps. That was when Fallujah kicked off, and you 1141 01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:29.239 know about that time, you know, we were you know 1142 01:06:29.719 --> 01:06:32.960 a lot of our buddies were there in forgery compleatoons 1143 01:06:33.400 --> 01:06:35.880 and we really wanted to go in and they were, 1144 01:06:36.079 --> 01:06:39.159 you know, because of that, they kept us out of 1145 01:06:39.239 --> 01:06:39.599 that fight. 1146 01:06:40.280 --> 01:06:44.320 I was really impressed with the myriad of different missions 1147 01:06:44.360 --> 01:06:49.280 that DEBT one did during this single deployment, from intelligence gathering, 1148 01:06:49.480 --> 01:06:57.639 sniper operations, personal security detachment work, high value targets, going 1149 01:06:57.719 --> 01:07:00.760 after h VT's pretty wild. 1150 01:07:02.079 --> 01:07:04.519 If you tell us about the hunt for as you 1151 01:07:04.639 --> 01:07:07.760 call them X and z In in your. 1152 01:07:07.719 --> 01:07:13.079 Book, Yeah, that was the one piece of information that 1153 01:07:13.159 --> 01:07:15.880 we were given when we got on the ground was 1154 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:20.199 that there were these two guys, both DECA card guys 1155 01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:26.280 that were for whatever reason, we weren't given their names. 1156 01:07:26.320 --> 01:07:32.880 We were just exy and they were nobody knew, you know, 1157 01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:35.000 anything about them. They were just guys who were always 1158 01:07:35.039 --> 01:07:38.960 on the move, but they were really kind of the 1159 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:44.800 shadow guys running the show. And Zu was the kind 1160 01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:48.039 of the senior guy. X was was one of his boys. 1161 01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:53.199 But you know, everybody had been after these guys. So 1162 01:07:53.679 --> 01:08:00.880 we first started getting some info on X, and our 1163 01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:03.920 intel guys were you know, just churning on him. We 1164 01:08:04.039 --> 01:08:07.599 were getting able to get some sources pretty close to him, 1165 01:08:07.840 --> 01:08:10.639 but you know, when we would, you know, that guy 1166 01:08:10.719 --> 01:08:14.599 and his family would be dead. So it was it 1167 01:08:14.719 --> 01:08:20.239 was challenging. We wound up getting pulled off for a while, 1168 01:08:20.359 --> 01:08:22.640 as you mentioned, to do this security detail. And I 1169 01:08:22.720 --> 01:08:25.680 say that only because the guy that we were guarding 1170 01:08:25.920 --> 01:08:31.800 was occurred the Kurdish vice president of Iraq, and then 1171 01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:35.079 you know, the threat was becoming you know, significant enough 1172 01:08:35.239 --> 01:08:39.079 that as they started progressing towards the election that they 1173 01:08:39.680 --> 01:08:43.760 wanted us back on going after bombmakers. So eventually we 1174 01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:46.039 roll up this guy that we believed to be X. 1175 01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:51.680 He you know, a couple of days in interrogation and 1176 01:08:51.760 --> 01:08:54.479 he won't admit it. We bring in family members and 1177 01:08:54.560 --> 01:09:00.439 they're like, yeah, that's him, that's him and the but 1178 01:09:00.600 --> 01:09:02.479 the guy, there's no way this guy was going to talk. 1179 01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:04.600 You know, when we'd gotten to a point with the 1180 01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:10.319 Iraqi interim government having taken control that anybody that we 1181 01:09:10.439 --> 01:09:14.319 were rolling up, if if we wanted them to, you know, 1182 01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:17.720 do any serious time or be put in prison, you 1183 01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:18.840 know they were going to have to go through the 1184 01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:22.439 Iraqi court system, and we had already. I didn't do it, 1185 01:09:22.560 --> 01:09:24.199 but a couple of our guys had to go and 1186 01:09:24.359 --> 01:09:27.239 testify right against these people. And here's what we found 1187 01:09:27.359 --> 01:09:31.840 or inside exploitation, here's where it was. Here's so this 1188 01:09:32.039 --> 01:09:34.760 guy had been, you know, once we started kind of 1189 01:09:34.760 --> 01:09:37.399 getting his backstory, responsible for the deaths of a lot 1190 01:09:37.439 --> 01:09:42.680 of Kords me as part of the Saddam's regime. And 1191 01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:47.159 so we're like, how can we get this guy to talk? 1192 01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:49.239 We're going to have to let him go if we didn't, 1193 01:09:49.479 --> 01:09:52.399 And somebody came up with the idea, let's, you know, 1194 01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:55.359 hit up our new pal that we've been protecting for 1195 01:09:55.479 --> 01:09:59.560 these these weeks, the vice president who's occurred, and ask 1196 01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:01.880 him if will join us on a little trip out 1197 01:10:01.960 --> 01:10:06.319 to uh, you know, his kind of hometown territory. You know, 1198 01:10:06.359 --> 01:10:08.039 they're like, what would happen, right if we turned this 1199 01:10:08.119 --> 01:10:12.960 guy over to the Kurds. So I know, I didn't 1200 01:10:13.000 --> 01:10:17.479 go on this particular mission. I wish I would have, 1201 01:10:17.560 --> 01:10:21.560 but fly out and uh, you know, with the vice 1202 01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:24.760 President of Iraq, this dude with the bag on his 1203 01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:27.359 head named X and then a bunch of our guys. 1204 01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:31.720 We get him to a location where we turn them 1205 01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:38.319 over to some Kurdish uh militia guys and you know, 1206 01:10:38.359 --> 01:10:40.880 they pull off the bag. He recognizes the kind of 1207 01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:45.199 the ship show that he's in and uh and we 1208 01:10:45.319 --> 01:10:47.720 were not. The point had been made very clear. He 1209 01:10:47.920 --> 01:10:49.680 was safe, all right, No one was going to do 1210 01:10:49.720 --> 01:10:51.760 anything to him because we were you know, our guys 1211 01:10:51.800 --> 01:10:54.439 were hanging out in the bank. But uh, you know, 1212 01:10:54.560 --> 01:10:58.560 once they started making their displeasure with him, you know, 1213 01:10:58.760 --> 01:11:02.119 known he started off and up. Uh you know, plenty 1214 01:11:02.279 --> 01:11:04.439 of infos so more than enough to kind of seal 1215 01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:07.800 to make sure that he was going to be trapped 1216 01:11:07.880 --> 01:11:11.560 for a while. So and then once getting him kind 1217 01:11:11.600 --> 01:11:14.880 of helped lead to this this next guy, uh z 1218 01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:19.399 And he had been someone that all of the uh 1219 01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:23.720 OGA organizations had been. Everybody had been after this guy. 1220 01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:27.079 He was he was a former regime guy, bath party 1221 01:11:27.159 --> 01:11:28.840 dude that's on the tracket cards. 1222 01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:33.279 Yeah, and he absolutely had like incredible trade craft, right, 1223 01:11:33.319 --> 01:11:36.640 he just he was never in the same place. But 1224 01:11:36.840 --> 01:11:40.840 we one of again, one of our our human intelligence guys, 1225 01:11:41.039 --> 01:11:43.520 was able to get a and it took like a 1226 01:11:44.279 --> 01:11:47.239 source to get another source closer to get another source 1227 01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:52.199 closer and eventually worked this young guy that we just 1228 01:11:52.279 --> 01:11:56.760 we called the kid in as this guy's kind of gopher, 1229 01:11:57.520 --> 01:12:02.319 and the kid eventually kind of worked his way up 1230 01:12:02.319 --> 01:12:04.640 to the point where he was driving you know, Z 1231 01:12:05.119 --> 01:12:09.159 around and uh, you know, we found out I didn't 1232 01:12:09.159 --> 01:12:12.720 know it at the time, but Z had been responsible 1233 01:12:12.800 --> 01:12:16.119 for killing this kid's family, right he was. He wasn't 1234 01:12:16.159 --> 01:12:18.760 a kid. He was probably twenty years old, So which 1235 01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:21.279 was you know, why he was It wasn't about money 1236 01:12:21.439 --> 01:12:25.600 for him. So we get, uh, you know, a text 1237 01:12:25.720 --> 01:12:29.359 or some communication that that the you know, the following 1238 01:12:29.479 --> 01:12:32.680 days he is going to be having lunch with some 1239 01:12:32.800 --> 01:12:37.920 other big wigs in this very very busy restaurant and 1240 01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:40.319 a very very bad part of bag Dad. So it 1241 01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:42.800 was it was a place where he could kind of 1242 01:12:42.840 --> 01:12:45.279 walk down the street, you know, with with without fear, 1243 01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:48.239 and we knew that they were going to have you know, 1244 01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:52.960 lookouts on all the corners and across the street there 1245 01:12:52.960 --> 01:12:55.119 were a couple of mosques that were kind of known 1246 01:12:55.239 --> 01:12:58.159 to just just be full of fighters. So it was 1247 01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:01.159 it was dicey, you know, especially you know, we made 1248 01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:04.600 had all of our success by trying to hit a 1249 01:13:04.680 --> 01:13:06.640 guy's house at two in the morning, all right, you know, 1250 01:13:06.760 --> 01:13:10.560 and doesn't you know, you you get sleepy. So this 1251 01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:13.439 was kind of the middle of the day thing. Somebody 1252 01:13:13.600 --> 01:13:19.199 came up with the the idea of, you know, instead 1253 01:13:19.199 --> 01:13:21.760 of trying to there's no way really to come through 1254 01:13:21.840 --> 01:13:23.760 and come into Helo's you you're going to be heard, 1255 01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:27.159 you know, you come in and in uh military vehicles, 1256 01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:30.279 you know, you're going to be seen identified far enough out. 1257 01:13:30.920 --> 01:13:37.439 So we got a bunch of fans, you know, just 1258 01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:40.439 used a bunch of vans, you know, no armor, so 1259 01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:43.840 it was it was a little dicey, but h took 1260 01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:46.840 the you know, the darker skins, the dark haired guys 1261 01:13:47.359 --> 01:13:51.000 through them and and you know headdresses and everything and 1262 01:13:51.079 --> 01:13:54.760 had them behind the wheels and uh. The when the 1263 01:13:54.880 --> 01:13:57.359 kid arrived, you know, he gave us the code word 1264 01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:00.479 that they were heading to the restaurant. And then when 1265 01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:03.640 they got to the restaurant, he went into the to 1266 01:14:03.760 --> 01:14:06.800 the bathroom and sent a text. And we were about 1267 01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:09.960 five minutes out, so we were able to roll in 1268 01:14:10.680 --> 01:14:12.600 and we brought in some of the Polish drom with 1269 01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:17.239 us for external security on that uh and and rolled 1270 01:14:17.279 --> 01:14:21.800 into a restaurant where pretty much everybody there was an 1271 01:14:21.800 --> 01:14:26.680 anti coalition. Pretty much everybody there had a gun, you know, 1272 01:14:26.720 --> 01:14:29.119 and then we had to figure out you know, you know, 1273 01:14:29.279 --> 01:14:33.239 obviously we we found the the driver you know, or 1274 01:14:33.359 --> 01:14:35.359 the kid. We knew who he was. And then as 1275 01:14:35.399 --> 01:14:37.199 we at this point we didn't even know what have 1276 01:14:37.279 --> 01:14:41.680 a good photo of the but you know, we come in, 1277 01:14:41.840 --> 01:14:43.920 roll him up. You know, we're able to you know, 1278 01:14:44.039 --> 01:14:46.479 move quickly kind of get everybody out before any any 1279 01:14:46.520 --> 01:14:50.000 shit kicked off. And uh, you know, by the time 1280 01:14:50.079 --> 01:14:54.359 we got him back to you, back to our our 1281 01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:57.640 base by the airport, we were told that you know, 1282 01:14:58.159 --> 01:15:01.239 he was being taken away from us, right right. 1283 01:15:01.399 --> 01:15:04.039 He was such a big, a big name that the 1284 01:15:04.119 --> 01:15:08.880 big eye in the sky wanted him. Yeah, you also 1285 01:15:08.960 --> 01:15:11.439 had this experience that I think is worth like looking 1286 01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:14.640 back on as you were doing this HVT targeting. You 1287 01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:17.520 relate in your book about bringing one guy into the 1288 01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:20.279 interrogation room and you know you wanted to choke this 1289 01:15:20.399 --> 01:15:22.680 guy out and kill him, but didn't because you know, 1290 01:15:22.760 --> 01:15:24.079 you knew it was the wrong thing to do. 1291 01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:26.359 But it was sort of like this moment like. 1292 01:15:26.439 --> 01:15:28.880 You had this sort of like realization about you know 1293 01:15:29.880 --> 01:15:34.399 who you are, but also who we are as people, right, yeah. 1294 01:15:34.439 --> 01:15:41.079 I so the whole story kind of goes back ways. 1295 01:15:41.199 --> 01:15:46.920 But there was an American contractor who was working He 1296 01:15:47.079 --> 01:15:51.359 was like a cell phone contractor. His story is sketchy, right, 1297 01:15:51.439 --> 01:15:54.159 There's some some strangeness in his story, so I'm not 1298 01:15:54.279 --> 01:15:59.359 really clear on it. But he was in Iraq supposedly, 1299 01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:02.760 you know, work working on cell phone towers. He gets 1300 01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:09.600 and this was right as the Abu Gharibe scandal broke, right. 1301 01:16:09.720 --> 01:16:11.720 We we were, you know, we were we had the 1302 01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:17.199 ability to interrogate our prisoners for a couple of days, 1303 01:16:17.560 --> 01:16:19.359 and when we were done with them, we would take 1304 01:16:19.399 --> 01:16:22.439 him and drop him off at Abu g which it 1305 01:16:22.560 --> 01:16:26.720 wasn't far away. So after the story broke of all 1306 01:16:26.800 --> 01:16:29.239 of the kind of bullshit that was going on there, 1307 01:16:29.840 --> 01:16:38.079 this kid was found with his head chopped off on 1308 01:16:38.239 --> 01:16:40.840 the side of the road. And then shortly thereafter, a 1309 01:16:40.960 --> 01:16:44.760 video of you know, him getting his head chopped off, 1310 01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:49.920 you know, surfaced, So we, uh this was happening. I 1311 01:16:50.000 --> 01:16:52.199 think I think it happened like right as we were 1312 01:16:52.399 --> 01:16:55.560 arriving in country. Uh when he when he when he 1313 01:16:55.640 --> 01:16:58.119 went missing, and then it was you know, we were 1314 01:16:58.279 --> 01:17:00.439 up and running by the time they found his body, 1315 01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:05.640 and then the video was released, so there was I 1316 01:17:05.760 --> 01:17:10.399 think it was Solder that was chopped his head off, 1317 01:17:10.560 --> 01:17:18.319 but you know, you're right, I'm sorry. Yeah. So any rate, 1318 01:17:18.520 --> 01:17:24.560 we uh wind up getting a lead on the guy 1319 01:17:24.640 --> 01:17:27.880 who's who was or oh guy who was involved in this, 1320 01:17:28.640 --> 01:17:31.199 So we wind up, you know, rolling up. He lived 1321 01:17:31.199 --> 01:17:34.680 in an apartment building, hid his house in the middle 1322 01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:37.239 of the night like we did, and you know, we 1323 01:17:37.399 --> 01:17:43.279 found a bunch of bloody clothing and bags and just CDs, 1324 01:17:43.479 --> 01:17:46.279 you know, stacks of CDs of the betting right, so 1325 01:17:46.560 --> 01:17:47.560 kind of kind. 1326 01:17:49.159 --> 01:17:49.359 Yeah. 1327 01:17:49.680 --> 01:17:53.319 Yeah, so we we bring him back and uh, you know, 1328 01:17:53.399 --> 01:17:57.319 we had the National Guard soldiers that were used for 1329 01:17:57.439 --> 01:18:03.520 security in the interrogations facility, but uh that you know, 1330 01:18:03.680 --> 01:18:06.680 that's time. I just I was really fucking curious, right, 1331 01:18:06.760 --> 01:18:08.880 I was like, hey, man, can I like just be 1332 01:18:09.039 --> 01:18:12.840 your security guy? Uh one of our interrogators was going 1333 01:18:12.920 --> 01:18:15.359 to go in with him, and he's like yeah, yeah, man, 1334 01:18:18.359 --> 01:18:24.119 and I don't I don't know. I had Yeah, I 1335 01:18:24.199 --> 01:18:28.760 had seen years before a video of a chechen cutting 1336 01:18:28.840 --> 01:18:34.479 off ahead and I mean the amount of of uh, 1337 01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:37.520 I mean, fuck, that's you got to really want to 1338 01:18:37.560 --> 01:18:39.880 fucking take a guy's head off, all right to do that, 1339 01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:42.760 So there's got to be some fucking hate involved in that. 1340 01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:45.520 And I didn't get it. I was like, man, I 1341 01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:46.880 just I kind of want to get it. I want 1342 01:18:46.880 --> 01:18:49.720 to see this guy and see what he has to say. 1343 01:18:50.399 --> 01:18:53.399 And so I'm standing in the back of the room 1344 01:18:53.600 --> 01:18:57.239 just really my job is kind of be intimidating. And uh, 1345 01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:00.720 the guy gets just brought in a down He's got 1346 01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:03.479 a bag on his head, you know, they pull his 1347 01:19:03.760 --> 01:19:07.600 pulled bag off, and you know, looking at him, you know, 1348 01:19:07.720 --> 01:19:10.039 he's you know, truck and this guy looks like a 1349 01:19:10.119 --> 01:19:14.439 normal fucking dude. You know, you know, what the hell 1350 01:19:14.560 --> 01:19:17.640 is he doing? You have involved in this? In this bullshit? 1351 01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:23.800 So you know, they's interrogating him and he's innocent, of course, 1352 01:19:23.920 --> 01:19:25.520 you know, he didn't do anything. He doesn't know how 1353 01:19:25.560 --> 01:19:28.560 the all the bloody clothes got there, how the CDs 1354 01:19:29.319 --> 01:19:34.359 got there. But the interrogator sets a laptop down on 1355 01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:38.479 the table and pushes the button. And I had I 1356 01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:40.479 had been standing in the back of the room, and 1357 01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:43.079 at that point I kind of got like pulled forward, right, 1358 01:19:43.159 --> 01:19:44.880 and I don't want to sit there and watch this 1359 01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:49.039 video again. But uh, you know, I find myself got 1360 01:19:49.199 --> 01:19:52.199 with my hands on the chair. It's just and I 1361 01:19:52.279 --> 01:19:54.880 talked about there and then there are a lot about 1362 01:19:54.920 --> 01:19:57.279 it because it was kind of a moment that, uh, 1363 01:19:58.039 --> 01:20:00.800 I mean I would have paid money to you know, 1364 01:20:01.119 --> 01:20:04.239 paycheck to have been allowed to just choke that fucker 1365 01:20:04.359 --> 01:20:08.720 to death. I didn't, and you know, obviously you know 1366 01:20:08.800 --> 01:20:12.159 I didn't want to go to jail either. Uh but uh, 1367 01:20:13.039 --> 01:20:18.359 you know, it just it made me realize that, you know, 1368 01:20:19.960 --> 01:20:24.199 everybody's capable of killing people. You know, sometimes we think 1369 01:20:24.560 --> 01:20:27.439 because we're you know, marines or were special operations or 1370 01:20:27.560 --> 01:20:31.039 or this or that, but I think anybody is capable 1371 01:20:31.079 --> 01:20:34.239 of of uh, you know, killing somebody if you know, 1372 01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:35.439 you push the right buttons. 1373 01:20:36.800 --> 01:20:40.439 Well, speaking of which, the sort of last hurrah for you, 1374 01:20:40.760 --> 01:20:43.880 and with that one at least was uh you got 1375 01:20:43.960 --> 01:20:45.920 called up to do some sniper operations. 1376 01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:49.560 Was it up in the jaff Yes, yeah, yeah, And 1377 01:20:49.720 --> 01:20:51.319 that was that was a blast. 1378 01:20:51.439 --> 01:20:55.319 That was you know, when a job had uh it 1379 01:20:55.479 --> 01:20:57.560 kicked off a couple of times, right, I think two 1380 01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:01.239 thousand and seven there was another big battle, but two 1381 01:21:01.279 --> 01:21:07.319 thousand and four the so the chaff Is is one 1382 01:21:07.359 --> 01:21:11.279 of the oldest cities in Iraq and within it as 1383 01:21:11.399 --> 01:21:15.079 the so the it has the like on the outskirts 1384 01:21:15.119 --> 01:21:18.159 of the town. Is the largest cemetery in the world. 1385 01:21:18.439 --> 01:21:20.680 I mean, it's like a city this place and there's 1386 01:21:20.840 --> 01:21:24.279 underground tombs, there's uh you know, above ground, there's just 1387 01:21:24.840 --> 01:21:31.319 it's like a massive city made up Wadi Salam I think, yeah, yeah, 1388 01:21:31.520 --> 01:21:34.239 And that's called the Valley of Piece is what it means. 1389 01:21:34.319 --> 01:21:37.720 Which was funny because we had the Marine Expeditionary Unit 1390 01:21:38.439 --> 01:21:40.560 getting ready to go head to head with the Mahdi 1391 01:21:40.680 --> 01:21:44.000 Army in the in the Valley of Peace and the 1392 01:21:44.119 --> 01:21:47.760 value of Piece. But so we got called up and 1393 01:21:47.840 --> 01:21:51.079 it wasn't just us, so there were seal sniper teams 1394 01:21:52.119 --> 01:21:56.119 went up. The Poles sent a team and we wound 1395 01:21:56.159 --> 01:21:57.840 up running into an s F team that was was 1396 01:21:57.920 --> 01:22:02.119 running around. But when we got up there at the 1397 01:22:02.239 --> 01:22:06.319 center of Najaf is the Ali a mam Ali Mosque 1398 01:22:06.439 --> 01:22:09.359 and it's the I think it's the second or third 1399 01:22:09.399 --> 01:22:14.600 holiest site for Shia Muslims, right, so it's uh, you know, 1400 01:22:14.760 --> 01:22:16.960 no matter what you do, you can't fuck up this mosque, 1401 01:22:17.000 --> 01:22:20.800 all right, It's got the dome is actual gold they're 1402 01:22:20.880 --> 01:22:24.800 like golden tiles on top of this, and it's it's 1403 01:22:25.880 --> 01:22:28.800 you know, nobody was willing to do anything that might 1404 01:22:28.920 --> 01:22:32.479 risk damaging the mosque, and consequently, the mosque complex was 1405 01:22:32.520 --> 01:22:35.640 where there were you know, a couple of thousand dicades. 1406 01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:40.960 So the only people that were able to move beyond 1407 01:22:41.359 --> 01:22:47.159 a perimeter that had been set were snipers. And so 1408 01:22:47.319 --> 01:22:52.239 we got up there, wound up connecting with the two 1409 01:22:52.399 --> 01:22:57.920 six Cavalry and in their sector, and they were, you 1410 01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:00.600 know like, hey, well, you know, we can't, we can't 1411 01:23:00.640 --> 01:23:03.199 go beyond this this line, but we'll we'll throw you 1412 01:23:03.279 --> 01:23:05.199 in the back of the vehicles, We'll get you up 1413 01:23:05.520 --> 01:23:08.479 as far as we can, and then we'll provide a 1414 01:23:08.560 --> 01:23:11.119 q RF in case, you know, ship really goes to ship. 1415 01:23:11.880 --> 01:23:15.640 So we were able to move in as special Operations 1416 01:23:15.640 --> 01:23:19.199 sniper teams, and for the first couple of days it 1417 01:23:19.479 --> 01:23:22.239 was because we all got in a position kind of 1418 01:23:22.279 --> 01:23:24.720 surrounding the city about the same time the seals on 1419 01:23:24.800 --> 01:23:29.520 the far side, the poles were over here, and the 1420 01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:36.319 they the insurgents assumed that they knew that nobody could 1421 01:23:36.359 --> 01:23:38.520 come beyond this line because that had been the way 1422 01:23:38.600 --> 01:23:40.760 that it had been. So you know, sun comes up 1423 01:23:40.760 --> 01:23:44.279 the first morning and it's just like fish in a barrel, right, 1424 01:23:44.319 --> 01:23:47.279 I mean we were just crushing, you know, you just 1425 01:23:47.359 --> 01:23:49.560 hear sniper shots boom, you know, all kind of ring 1426 01:23:49.640 --> 01:23:50.079 in the city. 1427 01:23:50.920 --> 01:23:53.239 You had the Shy Tack, right, which was a new 1428 01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:54.279 new thing at that time. 1429 01:23:55.119 --> 01:23:58.479 Yeah, it was we we took it. We we shot 1430 01:23:58.520 --> 01:24:00.840 it a couple of times. It was really too much 1431 01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:06.319 gun for for what we needed. There are a few 1432 01:24:06.399 --> 01:24:10.119 times where we needed the the Barrett at the cow 1433 01:24:10.399 --> 01:24:13.039 you know, to punch through things, but the Shy Attack 1434 01:24:13.159 --> 01:24:16.880 wasn't quite you know, enough ass to really punch through things. 1435 01:24:16.920 --> 01:24:22.159 And they didn't know the rofice ammo. Yeah, that that 1436 01:24:22.239 --> 01:24:26.279 we had for the for the baron. But primarily we 1437 01:24:26.359 --> 01:24:32.119 were carrying, ah it, some six to two gas guns 1438 01:24:32.920 --> 01:24:38.520 the market mark elevans, and we had some men forty 1439 01:24:38.680 --> 01:24:41.199 boat guns we kind of had. I took about seven 1440 01:24:41.720 --> 01:24:45.560 I think it was seven snipers with me and Ja Tack, 1441 01:24:46.039 --> 01:24:48.640 and then later we we brought in some more guys. 1442 01:24:48.720 --> 01:24:51.159 But for the first couple of days, it was like 1443 01:24:51.199 --> 01:24:54.960 I said, just uh, just shooting nearly as fast as 1444 01:24:55.000 --> 01:24:58.960 you could you could reload. After that, you know, they 1445 01:24:59.079 --> 01:25:02.920 started pulling know, some some pretty talented snipers. So we 1446 01:25:03.560 --> 01:25:07.159 wound up with you know, a couple of occasions you know, 1447 01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:11.760 really uh call, you know, thinking back to the things 1448 01:25:11.840 --> 01:25:14.880 I've read about Leningrad and you know, the sniper battles 1449 01:25:14.880 --> 01:25:17.119 in World War Two, and there was a lot of 1450 01:25:17.399 --> 01:25:19.560 you know, a little you know, putting our hats up 1451 01:25:19.600 --> 01:25:22.800 on sticks and trying to get a hold of periscopes 1452 01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:26.359 to use. So a lot of things that are in 1453 01:25:26.560 --> 01:25:29.279 use now. You know, every sniper runs around with periscope 1454 01:25:29.359 --> 01:25:32.039 like that was not something in the in the arsenal, 1455 01:25:33.520 --> 01:25:35.520 you know, back in back and forth. 1456 01:25:35.600 --> 01:25:38.039 What what were about the average engagement distances? 1457 01:25:39.479 --> 01:25:42.640 A lot of them were one hundred and I don't 1458 01:25:42.640 --> 01:25:44.279 think anything much more than three hundred. 1459 01:25:44.399 --> 01:25:45.640 So you were right on top of them. 1460 01:25:46.359 --> 01:25:50.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so you had like using a 1461 01:25:50.159 --> 01:25:52.920 lot of deception techniques as they got got wise to 1462 01:25:53.000 --> 01:25:54.039 you guys being out there. 1463 01:25:55.119 --> 01:25:58.680 Yeah, I mean we would move every you know, move 1464 01:25:58.720 --> 01:26:05.520 every night, move to another building, and uh yeah, try 1465 01:26:05.600 --> 01:26:13.279 to you know, have the army do things to Yeah, 1466 01:26:14.199 --> 01:26:15.600 got to make it seem like we were, you know, 1467 01:26:15.720 --> 01:26:18.880 somewhere else. It's just whatever we could think of to 1468 01:26:20.119 --> 01:26:22.159 got to keep them, keep them on their toes. But 1469 01:26:22.520 --> 01:26:24.680 we worked our way up and kind of started, you know, 1470 01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:28.079 with all the other sniper teams moved into where we were, 1471 01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:32.880 you know, looking into the mosque compound. And it was 1472 01:26:33.479 --> 01:26:37.720 at that point that and I think somebody I'm not 1473 01:26:38.640 --> 01:26:41.680 you know, I don't quote me on it, but I 1474 01:26:42.119 --> 01:26:45.560 got a report that the total the you know snipers, 1475 01:26:45.600 --> 01:26:49.479 we had been responsible for three hundred, killing three hundred 1476 01:26:51.239 --> 01:26:55.680 all of the soft snipers, and and like thirty or 1477 01:26:55.720 --> 01:26:56.920 forty of their snipers. 1478 01:26:58.039 --> 01:26:59.800 So it's turning the handle ones. 1479 01:27:02.800 --> 01:27:04.720 Or at least you know guys. And some of them, 1480 01:27:04.760 --> 01:27:07.439 like I said, some of them were were pretty talented. 1481 01:27:07.479 --> 01:27:10.960 There was a guy that, uh, you know, every time 1482 01:27:11.000 --> 01:27:13.840 we poke our head up, you know, a shot not 1483 01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:16.159 not terribly accurate, but you know, a shot would uh 1484 01:27:17.000 --> 01:27:21.119 would get you know, come come close. So we got 1485 01:27:21.199 --> 01:27:24.079 down and we're finally able to pinpoint him to a building, 1486 01:27:24.840 --> 01:27:29.239 and uh, what we discovered he was doing was, which 1487 01:27:29.319 --> 01:27:32.319 was a World War two tactic, was he had chipped 1488 01:27:32.359 --> 01:27:34.600 out bricks and a couple of different rooms and he 1489 01:27:34.640 --> 01:27:36.640 would pull the brick out, you know, take a shot, 1490 01:27:36.680 --> 01:27:39.000 put the brick back in, moved to another room. And 1491 01:27:39.159 --> 01:27:41.680 so we brought in. That's the time when the two 1492 01:27:42.359 --> 01:27:45.800 sassers uh came in handy, So we brought into fifty 1493 01:27:45.840 --> 01:27:49.520 cows and just dropped the wall on him. 1494 01:27:49.600 --> 01:27:56.359 Oh ship, that's awesome. And so uh, after this one, 1495 01:27:56.439 --> 01:27:59.000 you guys get returned back to your home station. And 1496 01:27:59.159 --> 01:28:01.359 and then and then we redeployed back home. 1497 01:28:02.279 --> 01:28:06.279 Mm hmm. Yeah. So we we get back in uh 1498 01:28:08.159 --> 01:28:10.680 it's late two thousand and four, I think it was 1499 01:28:10.920 --> 01:28:15.079 two thousand four. And then we're we're kind of twiddling 1500 01:28:15.119 --> 01:28:15.560 our thumbs. 1501 01:28:15.560 --> 01:28:18.079 All right, it was sort of like, good job that one. 1502 01:28:18.159 --> 01:28:20.800 You guys are awesome. Also, we don't need you anymore. 1503 01:28:20.880 --> 01:28:21.439 We'll call you. 1504 01:28:22.399 --> 01:28:25.319 Well, we didn't know, you know, we didn't know what 1505 01:28:25.640 --> 01:28:29.720 was what was coming, so there was there was a 1506 01:28:29.840 --> 01:28:33.439 new rumor almost every day. So we get back and 1507 01:28:33.560 --> 01:28:35.800 we just we assumed that, you know, we're probably going 1508 01:28:35.880 --> 01:28:39.119 to deploy again. So we start training and the smart 1509 01:28:39.199 --> 01:28:41.800 money this time was on you know, hey, they sent 1510 01:28:41.920 --> 01:28:44.039 us to Iraq, this time, they'll send us to Afghanistan. 1511 01:28:45.079 --> 01:28:49.159 So we we start getting back into in the reconnaissance training, 1512 01:28:51.359 --> 01:28:54.199 you know, spending a lot of time up in Bridgeport, California, 1513 01:28:54.199 --> 01:28:57.079 in the mountains and trying to you know, what we 1514 01:28:57.680 --> 01:29:03.800 saw is the the issue with reconnaissance missions in Afghanistan 1515 01:29:04.239 --> 01:29:07.479 at that time, especially where that you know, you can't 1516 01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:10.720 stay out more than like twenty four hours without compromise, 1517 01:29:10.960 --> 01:29:14.279 right right, It's just you know, you couldn't do it. So, 1518 01:29:15.119 --> 01:29:16.680 you know, so we'd come up with the idea of 1519 01:29:17.319 --> 01:29:19.840 being able to go out do your own reconnaissance and 1520 01:29:19.960 --> 01:29:23.359 then you know, be light enough, but you know, you 1521 01:29:23.600 --> 01:29:26.760 have enough that you could go do a direct action mission, 1522 01:29:27.199 --> 01:29:30.159 you know from your observation post, you know, and just 1523 01:29:30.439 --> 01:29:34.840 cut down that time. So you know, we started really 1524 01:29:35.039 --> 01:29:38.079 and it's really a really cool time experimenting a lot 1525 01:29:38.119 --> 01:29:40.119 of time up in the mountains, just seeing like how 1526 01:29:40.199 --> 01:29:43.239 light we could go, how uh you know, how much 1527 01:29:43.279 --> 01:29:46.079 ammo can you carry? Different ways of cash and ammo 1528 01:29:46.279 --> 01:29:51.279 and things, how you know, experimenting with with like we're 1529 01:29:51.359 --> 01:29:55.680 you know, eating sticks of butter and just calorie food 1530 01:29:55.760 --> 01:29:58.560 to keep you going. It's just really like nothing was 1531 01:29:58.600 --> 01:30:00.359 off the table. So it was this kind of cool 1532 01:30:00.479 --> 01:30:03.079 think tank of of you know, hey, let's find ways 1533 01:30:03.159 --> 01:30:06.199 to get lighter and lighter and be able to sustain 1534 01:30:06.239 --> 01:30:09.039 ourselves for for a long period of time. So while 1535 01:30:09.159 --> 01:30:14.239 this is going on. Kind of unbeknownst to us, there 1536 01:30:14.319 --> 01:30:16.880 had been a couple of organizations that had done The 1537 01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:19.520 Center for Naval Analysis had done one, and somebody else 1538 01:30:19.560 --> 01:30:23.840 had done an evaluation of our deployment, and it was, 1539 01:30:23.960 --> 01:30:26.439 you know, all glowing, Hey that one did great, you know, 1540 01:30:28.479 --> 01:30:31.520 And so armed with that, the commandant of the Marine 1541 01:30:31.560 --> 01:30:34.800 Corps and the commander of SOCOM go into Rumsfeld, the 1542 01:30:35.000 --> 01:30:38.840 Secretary of Defense, and say, hey, yeah, great, everybody had 1543 01:30:38.840 --> 01:30:41.640 a great, great experiment, but we don't want to continue it. 1544 01:30:43.840 --> 01:30:46.520 And you know, Rumsfeld was, you know, to his credit 1545 01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:49.720 was he's like, well, you know you're going to do 1546 01:30:49.840 --> 01:30:52.640 this thing. I keep telling you, and they're like, now 1547 01:30:52.800 --> 01:30:54.439 now we're we're good. We tried it, you know, I 1548 01:30:54.479 --> 01:30:59.239 didn't like it. And so he eventually said, hey, you're 1549 01:30:59.279 --> 01:31:02.159 going to know, instead of kind of letting you grow 1550 01:31:02.279 --> 01:31:05.039 this small unit into a little bit bigger unit, you're 1551 01:31:05.119 --> 01:31:09.640 going to form a two star level component to SOCOM. 1552 01:31:10.399 --> 01:31:12.319 So instead of being one hundred dudes, it's going to 1553 01:31:12.319 --> 01:31:14.600 be a couple of thousand dudes. You know that the 1554 01:31:14.680 --> 01:31:16.840 mank dorps would have to take out a hide. So 1555 01:31:17.239 --> 01:31:20.399 it took it took about a year for that word 1556 01:31:20.520 --> 01:31:24.199 to finally get out of us. So in the interim, 1557 01:31:24.239 --> 01:31:27.079 like I said, we're just experimenting with stuff training. You know, 1558 01:31:27.199 --> 01:31:30.720 some of our guys were at retirement age and said 1559 01:31:30.720 --> 01:31:33.119 screw it them out. You know, we had some guys 1560 01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:38.079 that had moved on to other units, and so there 1561 01:31:38.199 --> 01:31:40.640 was there was a little bit of attrition, but for 1562 01:31:40.760 --> 01:31:42.279 the most part, you know, we were just kind of 1563 01:31:42.279 --> 01:31:44.760 sitting there with their fingers crossed, hoping that we're going 1564 01:31:44.840 --> 01:31:47.399 to get get called to go out again. And that 1565 01:31:48.520 --> 01:31:50.520 when it became clear that that wasn't going to happen, 1566 01:31:50.800 --> 01:31:54.720 they told us that we were going to be disbanded 1567 01:31:55.000 --> 01:31:59.239 about the same time that MARSAK was activated, and so 1568 01:31:59.359 --> 01:32:01.359 I started, you know, looking for a way to and 1569 01:32:01.479 --> 01:32:04.760 MARSK was going to be primarily headquartered on the East Coast. 1570 01:32:05.159 --> 01:32:07.880 You know, I had spent you know, Debt one and 1571 01:32:08.159 --> 01:32:10.079 most of my life had been out in California. 1572 01:32:12.279 --> 01:32:16.000 That that first interaction with MARSK where you show up 1573 01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:18.880 and they throw the newspaper on the desk that says 1574 01:32:18.960 --> 01:32:20.279 disfrontled debt one. 1575 01:32:20.840 --> 01:32:28.359 Yeah, that was uh, yeah, it was. I had not 1576 01:32:29.039 --> 01:32:32.840 There's there's a different mentality on the East Coast Force 1577 01:32:32.880 --> 01:32:34.880 free Con than there was on the West coast. You know, 1578 01:32:35.000 --> 01:32:38.239 we kind of while there's some guys that would cross over, 1579 01:32:40.600 --> 01:32:42.880 you know, a lot of us kind of stayed in 1580 01:32:42.960 --> 01:32:44.720 our lane and so you might go to school with 1581 01:32:44.760 --> 01:32:47.920 an East Coast guy, but we just didn't mesh a 1582 01:32:48.000 --> 01:32:51.119 whole lot. And Debt one had been mostly West Coast 1583 01:32:51.159 --> 01:32:54.840 guys just by virtue of that's where the unit was, 1584 01:32:55.359 --> 01:32:57.399 although we did have a few guys from the East Coast. 1585 01:32:57.479 --> 01:33:00.520 But yeah, so I check in. You know, everybody I 1586 01:33:00.640 --> 01:33:03.239 meet is great. You know, they're heavy hitters. I'm you know, 1587 01:33:03.520 --> 01:33:06.279 excited to be working with them. And then this captain 1588 01:33:06.359 --> 01:33:08.279 comes and it's like, hey, I need you to get 1589 01:33:08.319 --> 01:33:13.640 in the car drives me to the base headquarters and 1590 01:33:14.239 --> 01:33:17.319 Marstok was using some office space in there because we 1591 01:33:17.359 --> 01:33:20.199 didn't have any of our own. And I get drug 1592 01:33:20.279 --> 01:33:24.039 into to what was I think the deputy commander of 1593 01:33:24.399 --> 01:33:29.000 Marstok's office, and uh, yeah, there's a this Marine Corps 1594 01:33:29.119 --> 01:33:34.600 newspaper that says, you know, the articles Disgruntled that one 1595 01:33:34.840 --> 01:33:38.279 and it you know, somebody or more than one person 1596 01:33:38.319 --> 01:33:39.760 that talked to him and kind of said, hey, this 1597 01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:45.199 is you know, this is bullshit. You know, we we yeah, 1598 01:33:46.319 --> 01:33:49.000 did a great job, and then we kind of get 1599 01:33:49.319 --> 01:33:54.600 you know, unceremoniously disbanded, and and uh and I I 1600 01:33:54.800 --> 01:33:57.800 hadn't personally felt that way, you know, I you know, 1601 01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:00.760 we were going from one hundred dudes to a couple 1602 01:34:00.760 --> 01:34:02.720 of thousand dudes. I saw that as a win, right, 1603 01:34:02.800 --> 01:34:04.840 and that was based on all the work that we did. 1604 01:34:05.439 --> 01:34:10.520 So but I was, you know, not terribly thrilled when 1605 01:34:10.920 --> 01:34:16.159 when I get drugged you know, from uh the range, 1606 01:34:16.399 --> 01:34:17.880 you know, when we're out we're out on the range, 1607 01:34:18.039 --> 01:34:20.279 out to this colonel's office so that he can like 1608 01:34:20.600 --> 01:34:23.199 yell at me, you know, and slapped this paper down. 1609 01:34:24.720 --> 01:34:26.960 So he was like, you know, are you disgruntled? And 1610 01:34:27.359 --> 01:34:30.560 I'm like, I wasn't two minutes ago, you know when 1611 01:34:30.600 --> 01:34:33.560 I walked in here. But it's it's changing pretty fine. 1612 01:34:36.079 --> 01:34:41.039 And the conversation deteriorated thereafter. I wound up, you know, 1613 01:34:41.079 --> 01:34:42.720 a wound to becoming good friends with the guy. And 1614 01:34:42.840 --> 01:34:44.680 he's a good guy. I don't know he felt he 1615 01:34:44.800 --> 01:34:47.640 needed to put his foot down or make a statement, 1616 01:34:47.800 --> 01:34:52.119 I guess, but yeah, yeah, the early days, there were 1617 01:34:52.159 --> 01:34:56.720 a lot of I mean definitely, you know, any starting 1618 01:34:56.760 --> 01:34:59.920 any organization of any sort, but especially you know, start 1619 01:35:00.159 --> 01:35:04.840 a special operations organization within the Marine Corps. Was was challenging, 1620 01:35:05.079 --> 01:35:06.960 you know, because there were still there were a lot 1621 01:35:07.000 --> 01:35:09.119 of marines that were opposed to it, and a lot 1622 01:35:09.159 --> 01:35:12.199 of very senior marines that were opposed to the whole 1623 01:35:12.239 --> 01:35:16.520 idea that didn't think it would last. And that and 1624 01:35:16.720 --> 01:35:20.720 now we just just celebrated our seventeenth anniversary at marsoch 1625 01:35:20.800 --> 01:35:23.479 So I think we're I think we're doing okay. 1626 01:35:23.760 --> 01:35:27.600 And so you have this very interesting experience of you know, 1627 01:35:28.039 --> 01:35:31.640 force that one helping the stand up marsok the last 1628 01:35:31.680 --> 01:35:34.199 couple of years of your career, and now continuing to 1629 01:35:34.279 --> 01:35:37.039 this day to work as a civilian employee there helping 1630 01:35:37.079 --> 01:35:38.199 the train you know, the next. 1631 01:35:38.159 --> 01:35:39.560 Generation of raiders. 1632 01:35:40.560 --> 01:35:43.640 I would really love to hear any insights you have 1633 01:35:44.119 --> 01:35:48.560 about that experience, you know, from standing up Marsock, from 1634 01:35:48.720 --> 01:35:53.359 you know, from almost nothing to today, any insights about 1635 01:35:53.399 --> 01:35:56.920 that progression and evolution of a unit and what it 1636 01:35:57.000 --> 01:35:59.479 takes to stand up a unit and create a capability. 1637 01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:06.760 Absolutely. Yeah. I was primarily responsible for standing up to school. 1638 01:36:07.359 --> 01:36:10.319 So when I came out from from debt one to here, 1639 01:36:11.159 --> 01:36:15.079 it was initially to be the to run the CQB training. 1640 01:36:17.319 --> 01:36:20.399 I got here and I had been promoted to Master sergeant, 1641 01:36:20.680 --> 01:36:25.000 and I quickly kind of got rolled into the position 1642 01:36:25.119 --> 01:36:28.159 that's at the time it was called chief instructor, So 1643 01:36:28.239 --> 01:36:29.640 I was kind of in charge of all of the 1644 01:36:29.760 --> 01:36:33.520 courses that we ran, which was great because you know, 1645 01:36:33.800 --> 01:36:37.159 I had absolutely you know, we'd kind of innovated some 1646 01:36:38.640 --> 01:36:42.039 some things with CQB. We brought in people to help 1647 01:36:42.119 --> 01:36:47.800 us innovate, so we had a lot of ideas about, 1648 01:36:47.920 --> 01:36:50.640 you know, ways to do things better than we had 1649 01:36:50.720 --> 01:36:53.319 been doing them. I brought or I didn't bring them 1650 01:36:53.359 --> 01:36:55.079 with me. Another one of the Marines who had been 1651 01:36:55.119 --> 01:36:58.680 in my team and had been my sniper partner and 1652 01:36:58.840 --> 01:37:02.520 my team came with me as well and was assigned 1653 01:37:02.520 --> 01:37:05.439 to the school. So, you know, between the two of us, 1654 01:37:05.520 --> 01:37:08.640 we we had like a big checklist like, hey, you know, 1655 01:37:08.720 --> 01:37:10.760 here's all of the shift that we're going to you know, 1656 01:37:10.920 --> 01:37:12.960 stop doing. Here are the things that we're going to 1657 01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:17.199 start doing. And it's a little bit of a rocky road, 1658 01:37:17.399 --> 01:37:21.279 but I mean we were really building from a cadre 1659 01:37:21.479 --> 01:37:27.640 of probably you know, twenty instructors. If we were lucky 1660 01:37:27.960 --> 01:37:31.199 to you know, today, we're probably have two hundred and fifty. 1661 01:37:32.520 --> 01:37:37.159 So it uh, it's it's grown exponentially, and obviously we've 1662 01:37:37.159 --> 01:37:39.319 added you know in the in the when we started, 1663 01:37:39.359 --> 01:37:43.920 we taught CQB and sniping and urban reconnaissance. You know, 1664 01:37:44.039 --> 01:37:47.720 that's that's grown now to tell language courses and intel 1665 01:37:47.800 --> 01:37:51.840 courses and you know kind of what have you along 1666 01:37:51.920 --> 01:37:56.600 with our assessment selection program and our operator the individual 1667 01:37:56.640 --> 01:38:00.640 training course the trained raiders. So I think to answer 1668 01:38:00.640 --> 01:38:08.159 your question, it was, uh, you know, the opportunity on 1669 01:38:08.239 --> 01:38:10.920 a small scale to kind of start up that one. 1670 01:38:11.960 --> 01:38:15.680 You know, those lessons definitely paid benefit, you know when 1671 01:38:15.720 --> 01:38:17.920 it came time to start up something on a bigger scale. 1672 01:38:17.960 --> 01:38:21.159 But it's it's a whole different beast, I said, when 1673 01:38:21.199 --> 01:38:24.199 you're you're trying to develop the you know, a training 1674 01:38:24.279 --> 01:38:28.439 program that's gonna take take marines from any military occupational 1675 01:38:28.479 --> 01:38:32.520 specialty and tournament raiders. And it was it was a 1676 01:38:33.000 --> 01:38:36.560 unique opportunity, you know, and I got to travel down 1677 01:38:36.640 --> 01:38:40.520 to to Q course and out the buds and you know, 1678 01:38:40.680 --> 01:38:42.399 talk with guys out there and see the way other 1679 01:38:42.439 --> 01:38:46.479 people are doing it, and so it was a really 1680 01:38:46.560 --> 01:38:47.039 cool time. 1681 01:38:48.800 --> 01:38:51.159 How do you see and have you seen over the 1682 01:38:51.279 --> 01:38:54.239 years you know, I know, the Marine Corps has this 1683 01:38:54.560 --> 01:38:58.680 uh storied history being very regimented and rigid, but also 1684 01:38:58.760 --> 01:39:02.239 throughout Marine Corps history there is a lot of irregular 1685 01:39:02.359 --> 01:39:06.399 warfare there. I'm curious to ask you, you know, how 1686 01:39:06.560 --> 01:39:10.159 you saw these Marines kind of slotting into a special 1687 01:39:10.239 --> 01:39:15.800 operations role and sort of grow into a more unconventional role. 1688 01:39:17.520 --> 01:39:24.159 Yeah, it's the Marine Corps is an odd beast right 1689 01:39:24.560 --> 01:39:27.520 in the book, I call it a cult, but a 1690 01:39:27.600 --> 01:39:30.600 good cult. But it's you know, like I said, the 1691 01:39:31.199 --> 01:39:35.880 Marine Corps considers itself, you know, a special operations organization, 1692 01:39:36.520 --> 01:39:38.359 but you know, hates it if someone else in the 1693 01:39:38.399 --> 01:39:42.399 Marine Corps is considered more special. Yeah, but the Marine 1694 01:39:42.439 --> 01:39:48.479 Corps is a long history of yeah, you know, irregular warfare. 1695 01:39:48.600 --> 01:39:51.560 Like you said, I mean, we wrote the Small Wars Manual, 1696 01:39:52.039 --> 01:39:56.119 the uh you know, we're we stood up the World 1697 01:39:56.119 --> 01:39:59.960 War Two Raiders, the first you know organa, the first 1698 01:40:00.000 --> 01:40:03.840 special operations unit in in the US history. We're heavily 1699 01:40:03.920 --> 01:40:06.199 involved in the O. S S. You know when that 1700 01:40:06.439 --> 01:40:09.239 was stood up and they were you know, the O. 1701 01:40:09.439 --> 01:40:12.319 S S was almost the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps 1702 01:40:12.359 --> 01:40:17.000 was also almost given that mission, and they fought it. Off, 1703 01:40:18.199 --> 01:40:20.199 and that's how they kind of got saddled with with 1704 01:40:20.359 --> 01:40:24.880 forming the Raiders. It's a fascinating history. If you read 1705 01:40:25.960 --> 01:40:34.800 the President Roosevelt wanted to to bring Bill Donovan into 1706 01:40:34.840 --> 01:40:37.880 the Marine Corps and make him in general. And there's 1707 01:40:38.079 --> 01:40:41.680 there's I have copies of these letters, you know, typed 1708 01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:45.720 up by generals in the Marine Corps, like you know, 1709 01:40:45.800 --> 01:40:49.239 pitching and moaning to each other about it, that I 1710 01:40:49.359 --> 01:40:53.720 was able to find in an archive. But uh so, Yeah, 1711 01:40:53.760 --> 01:40:58.800 the Marine Corps is during the Banana Wars and you know, 1712 01:40:59.359 --> 01:41:01.800 in and around World War One, they were you know, 1713 01:41:02.159 --> 01:41:05.319 Chesty Puller was the military governor of Nicaragua. You know, 1714 01:41:05.439 --> 01:41:08.119 so we had guys who were, you know, operating at 1715 01:41:09.800 --> 01:41:13.319 incredibly high levels, you know, thinking way outside the box, 1716 01:41:13.479 --> 01:41:16.319 you know, doing things that seem to kind of be 1717 01:41:16.399 --> 01:41:21.000 unmarrine like in some ways. But you know, Vietnam, the 1718 01:41:21.560 --> 01:41:27.840 Force Rykun guys were you know, on par with anybody, 1719 01:41:28.039 --> 01:41:31.800 you know, uh, you know, it was, it was working. 1720 01:41:31.960 --> 01:41:36.760 So it's been it's been odd. I mean, early in 1721 01:41:36.840 --> 01:41:40.319 the early days, we were getting a lot of especially 1722 01:41:40.439 --> 01:41:43.680 infantry officers, they would try out and just could not 1723 01:41:44.279 --> 01:41:47.439 wrap their head around the idea that I'm a great 1724 01:41:47.479 --> 01:41:50.479 Empfstry officer, but I'm not making it here, right because 1725 01:41:50.520 --> 01:41:57.199 I'm not able to think you know, differently, right, not 1726 01:41:57.279 --> 01:42:01.119 able to look at uh at situation you know, through 1727 01:42:01.479 --> 01:42:02.159 other lenses. 1728 01:42:02.399 --> 01:42:07.439 Basically, What about the younger enlisted guys, Do you think 1729 01:42:07.439 --> 01:42:09.640 they had an easier time like adapt thing because they're 1730 01:42:09.680 --> 01:42:10.359 more malleable? 1731 01:42:11.520 --> 01:42:15.680 Yeah, I think so. I think, uh, you know, especially 1732 01:42:15.840 --> 01:42:17.760 you know, people always say that, you know, the younger 1733 01:42:17.840 --> 01:42:21.680 generations this, or that, you know, the the guys that 1734 01:42:21.880 --> 01:42:25.760 we have coming in are you know, a hell of 1735 01:42:25.880 --> 01:42:30.039 less smarter than I am. Uh, you know, fit, really fit, 1736 01:42:31.600 --> 01:42:35.199 and and definitely able and you know, obviously much more 1737 01:42:35.239 --> 01:42:40.720 computer savvy, but able to to think, you know, latterly, 1738 01:42:40.960 --> 01:42:43.279 you know, outside the box whatever you want to call it, 1739 01:42:44.319 --> 01:42:48.239 you know, critically and creatively more more than kind of 1740 01:42:48.479 --> 01:42:51.119 was the case, you know, ten years ago. So I 1741 01:42:51.199 --> 01:42:54.000 think the one thing that they don't and it's it's 1742 01:42:54.119 --> 01:42:57.399 not their fault, it's just kind of a product of 1743 01:42:58.000 --> 01:43:02.279 the world that we live in, is uh just sheer 1744 01:43:03.199 --> 01:43:07.119 mental toughness, you know, like they had in most cases, 1745 01:43:07.159 --> 01:43:11.960 they haven't had situations where they were were training, you know, 1746 01:43:12.199 --> 01:43:15.720 in their the marine corps careers that was quite as 1747 01:43:15.960 --> 01:43:19.439 as austere as as you know, it was was common, 1748 01:43:19.800 --> 01:43:21.760 you know, twenty years ago before the war. 1749 01:43:23.399 --> 01:43:25.960 And how do you see back to the sort of 1750 01:43:26.039 --> 01:43:29.319 issue of the evolution of Mars SOK like capabilities wise, 1751 01:43:29.399 --> 01:43:31.439 how have you seen it go from you know, working 1752 01:43:31.479 --> 01:43:34.159 out of a couple of connects containers to today it's 1753 01:43:34.159 --> 01:43:35.319 an institution, right. 1754 01:43:36.279 --> 01:43:40.159 Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean we've we've had our 1755 01:43:40.199 --> 01:43:44.680 own you know, command of sotifs. You know, we've had 1756 01:43:44.880 --> 01:43:51.520 uh yeah, Tisak commanders. We've pretty much I think we're 1757 01:43:51.760 --> 01:43:56.720 we're pretty well inculcated, you know, across the board within SOCOM, 1758 01:43:57.279 --> 01:44:02.000 and there was you know, early on, there was definitely 1759 01:44:02.079 --> 01:44:06.439 some some pushback in the early days, and most of 1760 01:44:06.520 --> 01:44:12.079 it came from the Army. The Seals were were always 1761 01:44:12.119 --> 01:44:14.359 I think they realized pretty quickly that hey, if we 1762 01:44:14.439 --> 01:44:17.319 can you know, get these guys on our side, you know, 1763 01:44:17.359 --> 01:44:21.880 we're sister naval service guys, we can at least have 1764 01:44:21.960 --> 01:44:27.079 a little more asked to fight back. Because there's a 1765 01:44:27.199 --> 01:44:29.720 joke goes that SOCOM is spelled a r M y. 1766 01:44:30.880 --> 01:44:34.800 I think the Army makes up like seven or sixty percent. Yeah, yeah, Well, 1767 01:44:34.920 --> 01:44:36.600 or three percent. 1768 01:44:37.319 --> 01:44:40.079 And uh, you know, before we move on to some 1769 01:44:40.279 --> 01:44:44.319 questions that that the viewers have for you, last one 1770 01:44:44.359 --> 01:44:48.680 for me at least, Oh my god, it just escaped 1771 01:44:48.720 --> 01:44:50.840 my mind. I wanted to ask you, Oh, I want 1772 01:44:50.920 --> 01:44:53.800 to ask you about rules and capabilities, Like, I know 1773 01:44:53.880 --> 01:44:56.279 there's maybe some OPSEC issues, but maybe at a more 1774 01:44:56.399 --> 01:44:59.479 general level, how do you see more sock like slotting 1775 01:44:59.520 --> 01:45:02.560 into the ward or special Operations community over I know 1776 01:45:02.600 --> 01:45:05.399 they're already there, but also in the next like ten years, 1777 01:45:05.479 --> 01:45:07.760 I mean, what like unique role do you see them 1778 01:45:07.840 --> 01:45:09.840 filling that maybe the other units aren't. 1779 01:45:12.039 --> 01:45:21.039 Good question. That's a part of a really long, an 1780 01:45:21.119 --> 01:45:25.479 ongoing uh process within Marsan to you know, kind of 1781 01:45:25.479 --> 01:45:29.199 figure out what is the the way for both, you know, 1782 01:45:30.079 --> 01:45:32.640 making sure that we kind of tie into the Marine 1783 01:45:32.680 --> 01:45:35.840 Corps force design that you know, the way they're looking 1784 01:45:35.880 --> 01:45:39.680 at the at the future. I think there's absolutely a 1785 01:45:41.079 --> 01:45:49.760 it's not a secret that we're shifting focus back into 1786 01:45:49.880 --> 01:45:54.479 our kind of background and reconnaissance litorals you know, in 1787 01:45:54.600 --> 01:45:58.039 the in the waters up to the you know, onto 1788 01:45:58.079 --> 01:46:02.960 the beach and inland. So I think, yeah, more focus 1789 01:46:03.119 --> 01:46:10.880 on that reconnaissance. You know, technology is growing by leaps 1790 01:46:10.920 --> 01:46:13.920 and bounds. So you know, watching what's going on in Ukraine, 1791 01:46:14.119 --> 01:46:17.039 you know there's there's obviously a lot of lessons learning 1792 01:46:17.079 --> 01:46:18.880 there that we're taking to heart. 1793 01:46:19.880 --> 01:46:22.439 I would, uh, before we get your questions, I wanted 1794 01:46:22.479 --> 01:46:25.039 to ask because the Marine Corps got rid of their 1795 01:46:25.079 --> 01:46:30.039 Scout sniper platoons, which almost feels blasphemous, right, because I 1796 01:46:30.159 --> 01:46:32.520 mean the Marine Corps, one of the things they were 1797 01:46:32.560 --> 01:46:35.279 known for was their scout snipers. Now and now we 1798 01:46:35.399 --> 01:46:41.079 have MARSOK which fills this very vital role, but you 1799 01:46:41.239 --> 01:46:44.000 still have Battalion Recon I think right, and still have 1800 01:46:45.079 --> 01:46:48.760 still have Force Recon and Force Recon hasn't to my knowledge, 1801 01:46:48.760 --> 01:46:50.319 and you correct me if I'm wrong, but they haven't 1802 01:46:50.359 --> 01:46:52.920 been brought into the socom umbrella. 1803 01:46:53.520 --> 01:46:56.600 So where does that leave these sort of in between units? 1804 01:46:56.640 --> 01:46:59.079 And what do you think of the stay platoons going away? 1805 01:47:00.439 --> 01:47:04.000 So, yeah, yesterday I was I was trying to rep 1806 01:47:04.119 --> 01:47:08.960 my REP Scout Sniper Association by wearing my shirt. Today, yeah, 1807 01:47:09.159 --> 01:47:13.039 I had the opportunity to go to the final UH 1808 01:47:13.159 --> 01:47:16.800 Scout Snipers graduation last last year and as I said, 1809 01:47:17.119 --> 01:47:21.439 sad day. But so there are still the we have 1810 01:47:21.520 --> 01:47:25.399 a sniper course, the Marsk Advanced Sniper Course, and Recon 1811 01:47:26.199 --> 01:47:30.720 has a sniper course the called the Recon Sniper Course. 1812 01:47:31.239 --> 01:47:34.359 So there's there's still snipers in the Marine Corps, but 1813 01:47:34.479 --> 01:47:39.079 in Reconnaissance and in Marsk the state platoons of the 1814 01:47:39.680 --> 01:47:44.359 sniper platoons within the infantry battalions or are being converted 1815 01:47:44.439 --> 01:47:50.760 into scout platoons. So they it's I don't fully understand it. 1816 01:47:51.000 --> 01:47:53.119 They're they're not there's not a sniper school and they're 1817 01:47:53.119 --> 01:47:55.439 not going to train snipers, but they still have scope 1818 01:47:55.479 --> 01:48:01.520 weapons and they still have a really similar role. They're 1819 01:48:01.560 --> 01:48:04.079 beating them up, so they're they're growing a little bit. 1820 01:48:05.359 --> 01:48:09.840 I think that the snipers school has been you know, 1821 01:48:09.920 --> 01:48:11.960 and it's the same reason you know, the Marine Corps 1822 01:48:12.000 --> 01:48:14.960 just banded it post World War One, post World War Two, 1823 01:48:15.520 --> 01:48:18.960 post they didn't even have really have a mutch of 1824 01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:22.319 the way of snipers in Korea and then post Vietnam again, 1825 01:48:22.520 --> 01:48:26.359 so I think, you know, I think they'll make their 1826 01:48:26.399 --> 01:48:30.479 way back and then hopefully they will. But at present, 1827 01:48:31.119 --> 01:48:34.199 Recon Battalion is still filling the same role that they 1828 01:48:34.239 --> 01:48:39.359 always have. Force recon is is is smaller than it 1829 01:48:39.640 --> 01:48:43.039 was it used to be a company of anywhere from 1830 01:48:43.560 --> 01:48:47.479 five to eight platoons, and now it's it's a much 1831 01:48:47.520 --> 01:48:52.960 smaller foot brand, but they still will continue to be 1832 01:48:53.079 --> 01:48:55.840 heavily involved in the force design twenty thirty and then 1833 01:48:55.880 --> 01:48:59.640 heavily involved in uh, you know, providing commanders. You know 1834 01:49:00.119 --> 01:49:01.279 this commander's eyes and ears. 1835 01:49:02.199 --> 01:49:05.319 So we got a bunch of Patreon questions for you 1836 01:49:05.640 --> 01:49:08.399 and for people who are watching. There's a link down 1837 01:49:08.479 --> 01:49:10.640 the description if you want to subscribe to our Patreon 1838 01:49:10.720 --> 01:49:12.119 and ask our guests questions. 1839 01:49:12.199 --> 01:49:14.560 We also get access to all of these episodes ad free. 1840 01:49:15.680 --> 01:49:19.680 Brian asks when standing up a force during active conflict, 1841 01:49:19.880 --> 01:49:23.199 how did you balance existing needs versus future requirements? 1842 01:49:26.159 --> 01:49:30.399 That's a good question. I think we were only able 1843 01:49:30.479 --> 01:49:32.640 to see so far in front of us, for for 1844 01:49:32.800 --> 01:49:36.800 future requirements with debt one anyway, I mean we were 1845 01:49:36.920 --> 01:49:39.399 we knew that we were going to have a life cycle, 1846 01:49:39.600 --> 01:49:41.880 and then we were willing to be over I think, 1847 01:49:43.439 --> 01:49:46.199 you know, possibly talking to it from the perspective of 1848 01:49:46.279 --> 01:49:53.960 marsk is uh it's a little more apropos but there, 1849 01:49:54.279 --> 01:49:57.199 you know, I think we didn't do a great job 1850 01:49:57.960 --> 01:50:03.239 of that of really looking towards future requirements, just because 1851 01:50:04.239 --> 01:50:07.880 we really didn't. I mean, a lot of people didn't 1852 01:50:10.279 --> 01:50:12.479 know how long we were going to exist. You know, 1853 01:50:12.560 --> 01:50:16.079 there was always kind of the threat that you know, 1854 01:50:16.199 --> 01:50:18.560 we cost too much money and the you know, SOCOM 1855 01:50:18.680 --> 01:50:20.239 doesn't want us in the Marine Corps is getting get 1856 01:50:20.279 --> 01:50:23.800 rid of us. So a lot of a lot of 1857 01:50:24.199 --> 01:50:26.119 you know, when you're being built in the middle of 1858 01:50:26.439 --> 01:50:29.000 a fight, you know, you've got to focus on what 1859 01:50:29.199 --> 01:50:33.399 you need for that fight. I think as we've you know, things, 1860 01:50:33.640 --> 01:50:36.920 you know, the situation changed, both in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, 1861 01:50:37.199 --> 01:50:43.359 everywhere we started, you know, adjusting with that. But over 1862 01:50:43.439 --> 01:50:52.439 the last ten years, I think we've had enough time 1863 01:50:52.600 --> 01:50:55.880 to to set back a little bit and start looking at, hey, 1864 01:50:55.920 --> 01:50:59.119 how do we make sure that we're building the unit, 1865 01:50:59.239 --> 01:51:01.960 the organization, you know, for the missions of the future. 1866 01:51:02.479 --> 01:51:05.680 Uh Norm has a great question that reminds me of 1867 01:51:05.960 --> 01:51:09.000 a funny story in your book. He says, does meditation 1868 01:51:09.199 --> 01:51:10.880 really work or is it all in my mind? 1869 01:51:14.159 --> 01:51:17.199 I don't know. I think it does. The story though, 1870 01:51:17.359 --> 01:51:23.920 is it is pretty funny. I've always been a I mean, 1871 01:51:23.920 --> 01:51:26.600 I'll try anything, all right, and I've always kind of 1872 01:51:26.680 --> 01:51:29.119 felt that there's there's got to be more to it 1873 01:51:29.239 --> 01:51:32.359 than just the ability to shoot, move and communicate. You know, 1874 01:51:32.520 --> 01:51:36.479 from the that gunfight in Afghanistan, I realized that, you know, 1875 01:51:36.600 --> 01:51:38.880 there's you know, I need to get a lot smarter 1876 01:51:39.439 --> 01:51:43.720 right about you know, the psychological effects and the physiological 1877 01:51:44.039 --> 01:51:48.760 impacts of a gunfight. But you know, look for ways, 1878 01:51:49.359 --> 01:51:51.079 you know, I always wanted to look for ways to 1879 01:51:51.159 --> 01:51:55.399 make myself and my guys more capable. So you know, 1880 01:51:55.520 --> 01:51:57.720 for a while, I was really hell bent on speed 1881 01:51:57.800 --> 01:52:00.640 reading software because I thought that would help, you know, 1882 01:52:00.800 --> 01:52:03.199 just speed up our ability to see, speed up your 1883 01:52:03.199 --> 01:52:07.560 ability to identify it hardget to shoot. You know, we 1884 01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:10.840 if there's something kind of new, you know, I was 1885 01:52:10.880 --> 01:52:12.359 going through. I was in a phase where I would 1886 01:52:12.359 --> 01:52:16.159 try anything, and uh, you know, meditation became became one 1887 01:52:16.199 --> 01:52:19.119 of those. So I started getting into it, and uh 1888 01:52:19.319 --> 01:52:21.800 and I wish I was into it a little bit more, 1889 01:52:21.920 --> 01:52:24.840 but uh, you know, I still believe in it. But 1890 01:52:25.079 --> 01:52:28.319 I were like the first group of guys who are 1891 01:52:28.359 --> 01:52:31.560 going to be more socks instructors brought them into a room, 1892 01:52:31.920 --> 01:52:33.920 and I brought this lady, a really nice lady who 1893 01:52:33.960 --> 01:52:37.640 had volunteered meditation instructor, you know, her time to come 1894 01:52:37.720 --> 01:52:40.960 and teach. So she talked for a little while, and 1895 01:52:41.039 --> 01:52:43.359 all the instructors are kind of sitting there nodding their heads, 1896 01:52:43.720 --> 01:52:45.520 and then she was like, hey, so we're going to 1897 01:52:45.560 --> 01:52:49.039 all sit down and do like twenty minutes of meditation. 1898 01:52:49.199 --> 01:52:51.800 Close your eyes. And so I'm I'm sitting there in 1899 01:52:51.840 --> 01:52:55.039 the front, you know, with my eyes closed, and like 1900 01:52:55.119 --> 01:52:58.840 I hear the door and then I hear the door again, 1901 01:52:58.960 --> 01:53:01.560 and I'm like, all right, know, focus on my breathing 1902 01:53:01.680 --> 01:53:05.439 or whatever. And by the time the twenty minutes is up, 1903 01:53:05.720 --> 01:53:08.000 I opened my eyes, and I mean me and her 1904 01:53:11.079 --> 01:53:12.079 everybody else had left. 1905 01:53:12.279 --> 01:53:15.119 So, yeah, you win some, you lose some. 1906 01:53:15.840 --> 01:53:16.039 Yeah. 1907 01:53:17.560 --> 01:53:21.640 Jefferson asks, did you serve with now Lieutenant General Donovan? 1908 01:53:21.840 --> 01:53:24.279 If so, what was he like back then and in 1909 01:53:24.439 --> 01:53:25.279 such a new unit? 1910 01:53:27.159 --> 01:53:32.880 So yeah, oh, Frank Donovan. I served with him first 1911 01:53:33.279 --> 01:53:38.439 at first Force. We're not not in the same platoon together, 1912 01:53:39.000 --> 01:53:42.960 but he was. He was a platoon commander there, and 1913 01:53:43.119 --> 01:53:49.800 then with Debt one. He he arrived after our deployment, 1914 01:53:50.600 --> 01:53:53.119 so he when we thought that we were going to 1915 01:53:53.720 --> 01:53:57.920 to recock and deploy again, he got there and he 1916 01:53:58.159 --> 01:54:00.600 was the one who came up with this I of 1917 01:54:02.640 --> 01:54:08.119 of patrolling a deep reconnaissance mission into an assault. He 1918 01:54:08.279 --> 01:54:13.479 was his term for it was pursuit operations. So and then, yeah, 1919 01:54:13.520 --> 01:54:16.960 he's done pretty well for himself. I just had the 1920 01:54:17.000 --> 01:54:19.319 opportunity to see him and have dinner with him a 1921 01:54:19.439 --> 01:54:23.640 couple of months ago. He was he was incredibly driven 1922 01:54:23.920 --> 01:54:28.479 as a as a young captain and major. I remember 1923 01:54:28.520 --> 01:54:30.640 he used to at First Force. He used to set 1924 01:54:30.720 --> 01:54:37.760 up these orienteering days where it was and it was 1925 01:54:38.000 --> 01:54:40.840 usually there'd be a helicopter. You'd, you know, he looked 1926 01:54:40.880 --> 01:54:43.159 cast in swim into the beach and then you and 1927 01:54:43.239 --> 01:54:46.159 your teammate would you know, have to you know, move 1928 01:54:46.199 --> 01:54:49.960 around and navigate like a twenty thirty mile movement over 1929 01:54:50.000 --> 01:54:52.960 the course of a day, find points at each point. 1930 01:54:53.000 --> 01:54:55.479 There would also be like some questions you had to 1931 01:54:55.520 --> 01:54:57.960 answer or like a Kim's Game thing that you had 1932 01:54:58.000 --> 01:55:01.279 to remember, and U you know, if you if you want, 1933 01:55:01.359 --> 01:55:04.680 you got bragging rights. But he's he's still pretty damn fit. 1934 01:55:04.800 --> 01:55:08.600 I asked. I saw him, and you know, he was 1935 01:55:08.880 --> 01:55:13.199 always a excellent reconnaissance marine and a good leader and 1936 01:55:13.319 --> 01:55:16.479 somebody that you knew was was going places. 1937 01:55:17.520 --> 01:55:18.680 That's all we got for people. 1938 01:55:18.720 --> 01:55:21.840 Okay, So real quick, I saw a couple of people. 1939 01:55:22.000 --> 01:55:25.479 Daniel Kirby says, hey, ranger. D My cousin Grasshopper says, 1940 01:55:25.600 --> 01:55:26.039 what's up? 1941 01:55:26.319 --> 01:55:27.000 Enjoyed your book? 1942 01:55:28.279 --> 01:55:28.720 Excellent? 1943 01:55:29.680 --> 01:55:32.520 And then uh Andy also said hello Andy Milbourne. 1944 01:55:33.199 --> 01:55:34.600 Oh how toy? Andy? 1945 01:55:35.279 --> 01:55:36.720 Yeah, thanks Andy for chiming in. 1946 01:55:37.079 --> 01:55:41.840 Yeah, Joe, thank you very much. Uh do you foresee 1947 01:55:42.000 --> 01:55:45.840 MARSK getting their own Tier one unit? What is holding 1948 01:55:45.920 --> 01:55:49.119 back so Calm from forming a CAG Seal Team six 1949 01:55:49.239 --> 01:55:50.159 type marine unit? 1950 01:55:50.680 --> 01:55:51.199 Spicy? 1951 01:55:52.159 --> 01:55:58.199 Yeah, Yeah, it's been I've heard talk about it, you know, 1952 01:55:58.560 --> 01:56:01.279 and that talk is extended back a couple of years. 1953 01:56:03.279 --> 01:56:05.079 I don't know if it'll happen. I mean, I know 1954 01:56:05.159 --> 01:56:08.359 there are a lot of Marines that would be thrilled 1955 01:56:08.720 --> 01:56:14.520 if it did. That's I would not think it's something 1956 01:56:14.600 --> 01:56:17.239 that's that's going to happen too terribly soon. I mean 1957 01:56:17.279 --> 01:56:20.880 we're small, all right, you know, we're like I said, 1958 01:56:20.920 --> 01:56:25.319 we're three percent of SO command power, although according to 1959 01:56:25.439 --> 01:56:29.239 last check, I think we do ten percent of the missions. 1960 01:56:29.840 --> 01:56:33.600 So you know, it's the thing that the Marines kind 1961 01:56:33.640 --> 01:56:37.600 of always done, punchbuber or weight class. But yeah, I 1962 01:56:37.760 --> 01:56:40.319 don't I wouldn't hold your breath too long for that one. 1963 01:56:40.640 --> 01:56:42.000 But I would like to love to see it. 1964 01:56:42.359 --> 01:56:47.000 Yeah, and also jo, thank you very much. Where do 1965 01:56:47.079 --> 01:56:49.640 you see the raiders going in the future? Ideally? 1966 01:56:51.920 --> 01:56:55.520 Ideally would you want to see the program unit? Oh, 1967 01:56:55.640 --> 01:56:58.640 ideally where would you want to see the program unit going? 1968 01:56:58.760 --> 01:56:58.920 Why? 1969 01:56:59.439 --> 01:57:00.880 What changed? As would you like to see? 1970 01:57:02.800 --> 01:57:04.760 Good question. The one thing I should have said earlier 1971 01:57:04.880 --> 01:57:07.560 is that, obviously, in all of anything I'm saying, in 1972 01:57:07.640 --> 01:57:10.600 my opinion right it doesn't represent mars Ox or so Comms. 1973 01:57:11.760 --> 01:57:14.479 I am a big believer in and I always have 1974 01:57:14.600 --> 01:57:18.840 been in us getting back to the roots of reconnaissance 1975 01:57:19.359 --> 01:57:22.239 and and really becoming, you know, being the best at 1976 01:57:22.439 --> 01:57:29.560 at that the and I think the definition of reconnaissance 1977 01:57:29.640 --> 01:57:36.159 has expanded hugely over over the the past decade with 1978 01:57:37.720 --> 01:57:44.119 the avenues that have been opened up through technology. So 1979 01:57:44.239 --> 01:57:47.800 I think that's the direction. If I were, you know, 1980 01:57:47.880 --> 01:57:50.800 the commanding general for a day, that's the direction I 1981 01:57:50.840 --> 01:57:52.439 would like to see. 1982 01:57:53.920 --> 01:57:57.680 And the last question is the spiciest high ready high 1983 01:57:57.720 --> 01:58:01.640 ready or low ready for for standard position moving through 1984 01:58:01.880 --> 01:58:03.039 a complex. 1985 01:58:03.279 --> 01:58:07.439 Low always low the right answer, the right answer. 1986 01:58:08.840 --> 01:58:12.039 So Tough, Rugged Bastards is the book. I hope you 1987 01:58:12.119 --> 01:58:14.000 guys will go and check it out. I finished reading 1988 01:58:14.039 --> 01:58:16.520 it last night. There's a link down in the description. 1989 01:58:17.119 --> 01:58:19.920 It's a terrific piece of history and a really well written, 1990 01:58:20.279 --> 01:58:24.199 insightful memoir. I hope you guys will go check it out. John, 1991 01:58:24.319 --> 01:58:26.439 is there anything else you want to tell people or 1992 01:58:26.439 --> 01:58:28.159 anything you want to plug? You want to tell folks 1993 01:58:28.199 --> 01:58:31.239 where they can find out more about the Scout Sniper Association. 1994 01:58:33.880 --> 01:58:36.319 Definitely. What we're pushing right now is actually the Scout 1995 01:58:36.359 --> 01:58:40.760 Sniper Heritage Organization, which I think it's just Scoutsnaper Heritage 1996 01:58:40.800 --> 01:58:43.600 dot org. One of the projects that we're working on 1997 01:58:43.800 --> 01:58:48.720 is trying to get a Scout Sniper memorial built at 1998 01:58:48.760 --> 01:58:52.439 the Marine Corps Museum in Guantico, Virginia. So Scout Sniper 1999 01:58:52.479 --> 01:58:54.439 Heritage dot org. You can check that out. You can 2000 01:58:54.479 --> 01:58:57.119 buy a brick to commemorate a sniper list that you 2001 01:58:57.239 --> 01:59:02.920 know and make donations. Say my website is Jdaily dot 2002 01:59:03.000 --> 01:59:07.159 com and there there's there's info about the book, obviously, 2003 01:59:07.279 --> 01:59:11.000 but I also write a couple of weekly emails that 2004 01:59:11.159 --> 01:59:14.239 go out. You know, one's just called Walking Point. It's 2005 01:59:14.439 --> 01:59:18.439 it's kind of translates some military things into ways to 2006 01:59:18.479 --> 01:59:20.800 make yourself better, and the others called rock the Fuck 2007 01:59:20.880 --> 01:59:24.720 Up and it's it strangely enough about rucking mostly. 2008 01:59:25.640 --> 01:59:28.600 Yeah, because you've become a ultra marathon runner in your 2009 01:59:28.720 --> 01:59:30.359 quote unquote retirement. 2010 01:59:31.159 --> 01:59:34.680 I have. I've kind of stopped becoming an ultra marathon 2011 01:59:34.760 --> 01:59:41.000 runner recently, but yeah, who knows. Pick it up again 2012 01:59:41.439 --> 01:59:42.760 and real quick. 2013 01:59:42.760 --> 01:59:44.439 I want to tell people out there, please go and 2014 01:59:44.560 --> 01:59:47.359 check out my book, We Defy the Lost Chapters of 2015 01:59:47.439 --> 01:59:50.079 Special Forces History. It's up for pre order now, be 2016 01:59:50.199 --> 01:59:54.439 released on December ninth, and next actually this Friday, this 2017 01:59:54.560 --> 01:59:57.359 coming Friday, Joe Mussia is going to be on the show. 2018 01:59:57.439 --> 01:59:59.840 He is also a former Marine and the author of 2019 02:00:00.079 --> 02:00:03.560 cry Havoc, which is about the Rangers that jumped into 2020 02:00:03.600 --> 02:00:05.039 Grenada in nineteen eighty three. 2021 02:00:06.199 --> 02:00:08.800 I'm super excited to talk to him about that kind 2022 02:00:08.840 --> 02:00:14.520 of an untold story, another untold chapter of Special Ops history. John, 2023 02:00:14.560 --> 02:00:16.520 thank you for joining us tonight, man, really. 2024 02:00:17.399 --> 02:00:20.520 Man, thanks for having me. I had a blanche fantastic. 2025 02:00:21.159 --> 02:00:23.439 All right, we'll see all you guys on Friday. Take 2026 02:00:23.479 --> 02:00:24.000 care out there.