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<v Speaker 1>This is the Poet Speaks, a show all about or.

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<v Speaker 2>Tradition, hip hop and cardboard boxes on the bloc, Reget

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<v Speaker 2>Bandolero so your heavy metal, punk rock and La Junior

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<v Speaker 2>Hyde pop.

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<v Speaker 1>What makes poetry so amazing, so incredible is this absolute

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<v Speaker 1>fascination and ability to change our lives, the old tradition,

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<v Speaker 1>the reason why we speak.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the Poet Speaks.

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<v Speaker 4>Hello everyone, and welcome back to the poet Speaks Podcast,

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<v Speaker 4>the number one spoken word poetry podcast in the world.

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<v Speaker 4>And our next guest is a Nigerian American poet, pilgrim,

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<v Speaker 4>cologist and essays presently living in New York City. He's

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<v Speaker 4>the author of fifteen volumes of poems, of which the

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<v Speaker 4>latest are Bainbridge Island Notebook and Two Umber. His essays

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<v Speaker 4>on music, poetry, morality, politics and travel have appeared in

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<v Speaker 4>various online and print outlets. Everyone a big, warm round

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<v Speaker 4>of applause and welcome to the Poet Speaks Podcast. Luka uch,

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<v Speaker 4>how are you great?

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<v Speaker 5>Feeling great? Feeling good?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, with this wonderful New York City weather, You're used

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<v Speaker 4>to it. I guess, I guess we're used to it. Well,

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<v Speaker 4>thanks so much for being on our show. Today. We

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<v Speaker 4>really do appreciate you spending time and giving us some

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<v Speaker 4>of your time today. So I guess, I mean I

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<v Speaker 4>have a billion questions for you. Really love your work,

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<v Speaker 4>love what you represent, and love what you've done and

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<v Speaker 4>what you've been doing. But I guess I kind of

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<v Speaker 4>I want to start off my first question you. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>your journey is everywhere, everything all at once. To me,

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<v Speaker 4>You're literally from Nigeria to Germany to New York City.

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<v Speaker 4>So you've spanned I mean, your career as a poet

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<v Speaker 4>and a writer has spent continents, cultures. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 4>guess you know, from Nigeria, Germany, New York City, those

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<v Speaker 4>are three completely different cultural interfaces. I mean, how those transitions,

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<v Speaker 4>how those transitions in space influenced I think the themes

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<v Speaker 4>you explore in your own personal writing, That's what I

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<v Speaker 4>want to first start off with today.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that I see poetry basically as exploration itself.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's something that helps us see the world

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<v Speaker 2>from different perspectives, and it's something that is continually in process,

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<v Speaker 2>So it's just journey. So those physical geographic journeys I had,

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<v Speaker 2>I think they definitely influence my poetry, My poetry itself

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<v Speaker 2>is sort of a pilgrimage. That's why I see myself

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<v Speaker 2>as a pilgrim. I'm being in different spaces in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of culture, geography, ideas, and different kinds of people who

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<v Speaker 2>look different from me and all that. I think definitely

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<v Speaker 2>that in a way they enriched the work because part

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<v Speaker 2>of the way I also see poetry is that I

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<v Speaker 2>see it as something that has to surprise us.

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<v Speaker 5>Poet. We ssh to surprise us.

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<v Speaker 2>Poet weish to challenge the way we see reality and

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<v Speaker 2>the way we live our lives. It's not just something

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<v Speaker 2>you write because you know, you just feel like writing.

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<v Speaker 5>I think it's rather a calling and not a job. Wow,

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<v Speaker 5>that is deep.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, so what in what ways what made you

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<v Speaker 4>come to that conclusion in all your years? I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>what kind of made you really realize poetry is that

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<v Speaker 4>type of journey? What was it? Was it a moment,

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<v Speaker 4>a pivotal event? What was it that has led you

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<v Speaker 4>to that very deeper meaning of a really niche form

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<v Speaker 4>of art that many people don't consider poetry as something

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<v Speaker 4>that changes reality? What lets you do that?

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<v Speaker 5>Well?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's simply experience, perhaps, and my inclination and

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<v Speaker 2>temperament right from when I was born in Nigeria, let

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<v Speaker 2>me say my first teny years, you know, during the

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<v Speaker 2>Nigerian Civil War. That war took about four years of

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<v Speaker 2>my life. So to say, I've always seen reality as

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<v Speaker 2>something a little bit questionable. It seems very unstable. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not something I just as Zuume I know, or something

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<v Speaker 2>I zeume I can claim. And part of all that,

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<v Speaker 2>due to my own work, is that it makes the

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<v Speaker 2>work itself an investigative kind of process. You know, I

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<v Speaker 2>find myself investigating not just reality, but esthetics itself. How

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<v Speaker 2>do we keep ourselves open for something to enter, for instance,

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<v Speaker 2>because I feel poetry in its openness not just physically

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<v Speaker 2>but psychically, spiritual, intellectually. So that's part of why the

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<v Speaker 2>anti intellectualism for the time being I just noticed in

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<v Speaker 2>Nigeria actually gives me grief.

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<v Speaker 5>I think any kind.

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<v Speaker 2>Of anti intellectualism, anti ecstaticism, is the kind of tragedy.

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<v Speaker 2>So for me as a person, I feel I'm living

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<v Speaker 2>in my element. I'm being myself when I write poems.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have actually lots of theories about it, but

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<v Speaker 2>I just feel this is what I'm called. I'm putting

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<v Speaker 2>the planet to do, and I'm just going to keep

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<v Speaker 2>doing it.

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<v Speaker 4>I love that. I love that it's what your call

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<v Speaker 4>to do and you're just going to keep doing it now.

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<v Speaker 4>I love that. I think that's very rare that people

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<v Speaker 4>ever find that type of passion in their lives. I

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<v Speaker 4>think that's very very rare to be able to find.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, so I guess the question of from that,

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<v Speaker 4>you have to kind of ask what is your Like

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<v Speaker 4>I said, Nigeria, Germany, New York City. I mean, what

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<v Speaker 4>is your favorite favorite spot? What is your favorite environment

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<v Speaker 4>to be in? Out of all those.

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<v Speaker 2>Places, I will say all of them, actually, because without Nigeria,

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't be here, Psi and Europe itself. I lived

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<v Speaker 2>in Germany and I lived in Holland. Those spaces helped

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<v Speaker 2>grow my art and my artistry, my exposure to different

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<v Speaker 2>ways of writing, different ways of seeing life, different cultures.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel in lots of ways it tough on me

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<v Speaker 2>as an artist and as a creative person. It's let

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<v Speaker 2>me widen out, so to say, to embrace the world

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<v Speaker 2>more than perhaps when I was in Nigeria. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it told me that actually I'm a citizen of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a global citizen. I don't just see myself as

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<v Speaker 2>just the Nigerian. I believe that the world belongs to me.

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<v Speaker 2>So all those places I went to, I look at

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<v Speaker 2>the Mosco as word holy spaces. Just part of why

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<v Speaker 2>I call it a progrimage. I meet prigrimagiest of those

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<v Speaker 2>places I made pilgrim. From Nigeria, I went to Germany

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<v Speaker 2>and then went to Holland, and then from there I returned.

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<v Speaker 2>I came to New York to live. But meanwhile from

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<v Speaker 2>New York, I have been other places from here, Romania,

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<v Speaker 2>South Africa, and so it's like the journey continues. So

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<v Speaker 2>for me again, all these places influenced me stylistically, thematically,

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<v Speaker 2>in a visionary way, because it means that I am

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<v Speaker 2>kept busy.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, it keeps me busy.

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<v Speaker 2>There is no time when I'm really bored. There's no

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<v Speaker 2>time when I feel I don't know what to write about.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there is no drought to my artistry or

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<v Speaker 2>to my work. There is always something to write about,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, particularly when I'm calm enough.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. And so

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<v Speaker 4>you mentioned that that term, I've actually never heard of

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<v Speaker 4>it before, poet pilgrim. So that's what you call yourself.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, so tell me how how specifically has that

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<v Speaker 4>shaped your writing? Like you said, you're a citizen of

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<v Speaker 4>the world. Does that bend your viewpoint when you're now

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<v Speaker 4>writing you know something that you feel is such an

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<v Speaker 4>intrinsic part of your soul being a poet, pilgrim, citizen

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<v Speaker 4>of the world as you call it, How was that

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<v Speaker 4>shaped you as a writer?

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<v Speaker 2>Shapes it shaped the walk itself in sense of making

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<v Speaker 2>it open to whatever is available. You know, it's almost

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<v Speaker 2>like magnetic. It attracts the poem attracts what it needs,

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<v Speaker 2>just like different books. For me, any book is an

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<v Speaker 2>occasion to be able to try at least something I

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<v Speaker 2>have not done before, either stylistically or automatically. So it

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<v Speaker 2>is something that I find fruitful and ruition in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of the work that I sold.

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<v Speaker 5>I solve poetry.

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<v Speaker 4>I love that. So kind of moving a bit along.

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<v Speaker 4>So now, I mean, so now you're a citizen of

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<v Speaker 4>New York City, of the world, but now currently you

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<v Speaker 4>are in New York City. So as someone that knows

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<v Speaker 4>New York City very well, New York City is the

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<v Speaker 4>most intense, loud, busy buddy. I mean, you have a

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<v Speaker 4>billion thoughts racing per minute living in a place like that.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, how how for.

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<v Speaker 4>Someone like you that's so interceptive, you know, you're so

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<v Speaker 4>introspective of the place you are. How does a place

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<v Speaker 4>like the city, especially in these days, you know, this

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<v Speaker 4>time period where in now? I mean, how has that

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<v Speaker 4>the city of New York? I mean, how has that

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<v Speaker 4>infiltrated your work as a writer?

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, I think that again it's in riches the work.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it brings so much to me to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to put in poet. For instance, if I look

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<v Speaker 2>around me there almost the whole world is in New

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<v Speaker 2>York City. Almost everybody from different different mode column not

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<v Speaker 2>planets now, but you know, turns of different parts of

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<v Speaker 2>the world geographically, you know, the Asians, Europeans, Africans, Latin Americans,

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<v Speaker 2>everybody's practically in New York City. And it seems again

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps that what is happening is that the power, the

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<v Speaker 2>auras of these different individuals do something inspirationally to me,

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<v Speaker 2>because since I arrived New York City in two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and seven, I've never stopped writing. Lots of people say that, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>they come to New York and they feel on that siege.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't know why. I can't explain it.

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<v Speaker 2>But all New York has given me has been inspiration,

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<v Speaker 2>and they challenge to be able to say, you know what, Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>it's very very friend take here, it's busy here. But

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<v Speaker 2>still I'm going to be doing what I'm putting the

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<v Speaker 2>planet to do, which is write poetry, share with people,

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<v Speaker 2>tish when your opportunity arises. Learn because I think that

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<v Speaker 2>a poet is a perpetual student.

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<v Speaker 5>You always have to learn, you always have to be open.

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<v Speaker 2>It's to me not about the mastery that you must

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<v Speaker 2>study art. I don't look at poetry in terms of mastery,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. I look at it in terms of something

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<v Speaker 2>that actually educates me, enlightens me, spiritualizes me as an individual.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's a very very humbling situation. And New

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<v Speaker 2>York has continued to give me that.

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<v Speaker 4>I've actually never heard someone described as that poetry you said,

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<v Speaker 4>so it humbles you, Yes, you use that word. Tell

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<v Speaker 4>me how does poetry humble an individual?

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<v Speaker 2>Because for me, I see that as a service that

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<v Speaker 2>I'm called to give you, know, and when you are

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<v Speaker 2>this servant, you are in a humble situation. You are

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<v Speaker 2>know heerchically. You know, a savant is lower, so to say,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just like the world a program. A program

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<v Speaker 2>is not somebody who goes to own things. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you are there to experience things. That's why you are programming.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't really own any space. You're just there temporarily.

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<v Speaker 2>And to me, that's the way I see the work

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<v Speaker 2>that I do. You know, any place I am, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't see any kind of finality apart from the natural

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<v Speaker 2>impermanence for what situation in the world that we're very

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<v Speaker 2>very impermanent here no matter what we do, no matter

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<v Speaker 2>what we own, no matter what influences, we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>live here one day, and that particular situation. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>find this tragic. It's actually something beautiful because what it

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<v Speaker 2>does is that it shows us how precious the gift

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<v Speaker 2>of life itself is, and that we should not waste

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<v Speaker 2>our lives in bitterness looking for people to dominate to

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<v Speaker 2>you mean, people to show how powerful were, how influench

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<v Speaker 2>are we are. I find that actually better destructing and boring.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely no love.

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<v Speaker 1>I love this.

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<v Speaker 4>I love this energy that you have towards poetry. Now

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<v Speaker 4>I almost want to say, like as someone that's also

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<v Speaker 4>Nigerian and Ebo. I mean, I feel like it's almost

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<v Speaker 4>in our culture and our blood to really be of

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<v Speaker 4>the arts. I honestly really do believe it's just in

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<v Speaker 4>the spirit of our people. Tell me, I mean, how

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<v Speaker 4>much how much of your kind of artistic as a poet?

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<v Speaker 4>How much was that received well by your family? Was that?

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<v Speaker 4>But I know, you know, as much as it's in

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<v Speaker 4>our blood, it's not necessarily always perceived well when we're

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<v Speaker 4>anything outside of maybe these stereotypical great careers like doctor lawyer.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, how was it being pursuing the arts specifically

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<v Speaker 4>as a writer? Was that encouraged by your family? Were

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<v Speaker 4>you supported well and that in this endeavor?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, not quite. They didn't support it. They didn't discourage it,

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<v Speaker 5>you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Impact I think it baffles them. I remember when I

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<v Speaker 2>was a teenager, when I sat there writing and all that.

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<v Speaker 2>At some point my dad just says, you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>will have growed this. I'm not in a very not

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<v Speaker 2>in a sort of a bitter way, but it just felt,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's one of those faces your past, you

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<v Speaker 2>know what I mean. At seventeen, you know you're just

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<v Speaker 2>gonna have growed this and my first book, title Old

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<v Speaker 2>Flower Child, appeared when I was twenty five in Nigeria,

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty eight. When that book came and my father

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<v Speaker 2>just somehow looked at it. He didn't say much, but

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<v Speaker 2>what he did was he went along showing it to

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<v Speaker 2>all his friends behind my back. He was proud actually

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<v Speaker 2>that his son, you know, wrote a book.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>But I don't think that in terms of profession, because

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<v Speaker 2>somehow he always felt, and I think the entire family felt,

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to start read a poet, an artists, how

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<v Speaker 2>are you going to live?

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<v Speaker 5>And so on. So I understand that kind of confusion.

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<v Speaker 2>It's as if I really confused them by what I took, seriously,

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<v Speaker 2>what I showed that. Look, listen, I just realized this

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<v Speaker 2>is my life's work. And as a teenager, for you

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<v Speaker 2>to say that, of course, others are bound.

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<v Speaker 5>To say you are crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you know you haven't even experienced it in

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<v Speaker 2>life and all those things. But the truth of the matter,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said about our culture, I remember my grandmother,

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<v Speaker 2>my grandmother telling me, you know what, as a child,

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<v Speaker 2>you were the best dancer in the village.

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<v Speaker 5>I loved dancing. I love dancing to you know, gongs.

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<v Speaker 2>I loved playing playing gongs, playing drums, you know, following

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<v Speaker 2>masquerades around and being a masquerade myself, and all those

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<v Speaker 2>sort of things that I didn't use the word art for.

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<v Speaker 5>They were just natural.

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in that environment where music is not

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<v Speaker 2>just for entertainment. It's usually something you used to celebrate birds, debts,

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<v Speaker 2>seasons and so on, new youm festivals. You see, all

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<v Speaker 2>those things to me were very very natural, and that

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<v Speaker 2>presence of music is still I realize it's still in

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<v Speaker 2>everything I've written, every book I've written, music has been

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<v Speaker 2>very very central in there, without my even planning it

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<v Speaker 2>to be.

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<v Speaker 5>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>So in terms of the family, like I said, now,

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<v Speaker 2>in these days, they just have accepted it. It's about

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<v Speaker 2>just the accepted that this is what this brother seems

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<v Speaker 2>to be doing, and he's been doing it now for decades,

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<v Speaker 2>so we just allow him to. So I appreciate the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that this somehow there is no hostility towards it.

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<v Speaker 2>But I say earlier on they didn't understand what hotu

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<v Speaker 2>was about when I started doing it as a teenager.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, that's such a I mean, it's such an

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<v Speaker 4>unfortunate it. I'll be frank with you. I feel like

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<v Speaker 4>it's so unfortunate a lot of people, like you said,

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, poetry, it has the power to change so much,

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<v Speaker 4>bend reality. It's so unfortunate so many people that are poets, writers,

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<v Speaker 4>they don't get maybe the proper familial support, you know

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<v Speaker 4>what I mean that they should, because it is such

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<v Speaker 4>an incredibly courageous endeavor as a career. You know, you

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<v Speaker 4>really are, like you said, a pilgrim. You know, you're

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<v Speaker 4>you're trotting on unspoken things to really help people see

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<v Speaker 4>things that they've never seen before. So I do wish

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<v Speaker 4>that more people kind of supported, you know, people in

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<v Speaker 4>their family, whether it be children, you know, whoever in

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<v Speaker 4>your life that really does take this path.

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<v Speaker 5>So we do.

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<v Speaker 4>We do appreciate, you know, for continuing on with your path,

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<v Speaker 4>regardless of you know, whatever the up bringing, Brad, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>following your heart. You've obviously changed a lot of people's

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<v Speaker 4>lives with your amazing work. I mean, now what I

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<v Speaker 4>find it what I find interesting about your poetry. So

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<v Speaker 4>you blend language and reality, I mean, and I feel

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<v Speaker 4>like that's an interesting kind of mix, you know, blending

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<v Speaker 4>different languages as you write, I mean, have you ever

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<v Speaker 4>written a poem? I guess I want to say that

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<v Speaker 4>kind of And you know, as someone like you that's

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<v Speaker 4>so perceptive with the art of poetry, you find it

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<v Speaker 4>as a humbling experiencing to write. Have you ever written something,

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, maybe that scared you, or something that unsettled

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<v Speaker 4>you as a viewer, as a voyeur of this world,

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<v Speaker 4>have you ever written something that's kind of shooking you

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<v Speaker 4>up a bit?

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, I was writing their line about that I

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<v Speaker 2>think was yesterday or something, which is that I'm attracted.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm drawn to teens that scar me. You know, if

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<v Speaker 2>I look around, I might even find the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the exact whatever it is then where I wrote about it,

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<v Speaker 2>because very I don't know how you even mentioned that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, suddenly, I'm very, very drawn to things that

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<v Speaker 2>scare me because I feel I would say things that

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<v Speaker 2>challenge me. Because if something doesn't challenge me, why why

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<v Speaker 2>do you keep doing it? You know, I don't really

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not somebody who just thinks you have to be

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<v Speaker 2>replicating something. I don't like branding. There are people who

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<v Speaker 2>feel this is your brand, right, this is the way

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<v Speaker 2>you have to do it all the time. And I

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<v Speaker 2>believe that you don't really need to be the same

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<v Speaker 2>kind of power all the time. You don't need to

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<v Speaker 2>be writing the same poem all the time. If the

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<v Speaker 2>poem desires something else, you must have the courage the

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<v Speaker 2>propensity towards following the power and being loyal to the power.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not about your own image. It's not about what

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<v Speaker 2>the critics are written about your work. But I'm always

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<v Speaker 2>asking what does the poem want? Where does it want

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<v Speaker 2>to go?

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<v Speaker 5>Now?

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<v Speaker 2>Where does it want me to? Where does it want

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<v Speaker 2>me to follow it to? And that actually comes back

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<v Speaker 2>about being scary is a scary thing to do. But

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<v Speaker 2>because I'm used to it now, I no longer use

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<v Speaker 2>the word scary, you know, for it. It's just my

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<v Speaker 2>way of being. And I realize that's the way that

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<v Speaker 2>actually poems come to me, because somehow they seem to

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<v Speaker 2>know that I'm open to whatever it is they're suggesting,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's very very contradictory, or whether it's something that

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<v Speaker 2>people might just say, how can you say that? People

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<v Speaker 2>don't say these things in the open. And I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>for my poetry, if my power desires that that needs

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<v Speaker 2>to be said, I would say it, you know, And

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<v Speaker 2>that's part of something I'm grateful I will say, to

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<v Speaker 2>the universe for being able to give me that particular

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<v Speaker 2>equipment to be able to listen to the poem and

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<v Speaker 2>not relate to any that institution or nations, because's very

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<v Speaker 2>very important.

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<v Speaker 5>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I know it's natural for us to be encouraged, for

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<v Speaker 2>us to be praised. We love praises, to hear it

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<v Speaker 2>and all that. But you know what, if the poem

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<v Speaker 2>wants to contradict itself in terms of book to book

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<v Speaker 2>the way it's doing in my own work.

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<v Speaker 5>I just follow it. I just follow it.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I said, again, I am there to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to do what the poem wants me to do. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's again it's just not easy to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, this idea of being there to do what the

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<v Speaker 4>poem wants you to do, it's almost it sounds almost

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<v Speaker 4>to me like you, to lack of a better term,

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<v Speaker 4>you submit yourself to the art. You submit yourself to

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<v Speaker 4>what you believe is the greater power of the spoken word,

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<v Speaker 4>the oral tradition. So that kind of leads me perfectly

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<v Speaker 4>into my next kind of question. Right, So, your work,

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<v Speaker 4>it's been translated into many different languages, Okay, So like

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<v Speaker 4>when you see your poem, Let's say you write this

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<v Speaker 4>poem in English, when you see it translate into a

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<v Speaker 4>different voice, as in a different language,