WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:11.439 Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom 2 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:15.199 on the past between primary secondary worlds. I'm doctor Andrew Snyder, 3 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:23.079 and I'm glad that you're here. Hey there, welcome back 4 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:25.920 as we continue our Star Wars series as we discuss 5 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:30.399 a new Hope now unfortunately, only not unfortunately, I mean, 6 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:33.600 the good news is that Ian and David were able 7 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:35.880 to join us. But the better news is that hopefully 8 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:37.759 we'll be able to bring in even more members of 9 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:40.399 our fellowship for next time when we get to the 10 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:44.240 Empire strikes back. Now, this was I think a useful 11 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:47.359 conversation as we deal with a number of a number 12 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:49.560 of topics. Sorr we' we don't really have a clear 13 00:00:49.560 --> 00:00:52.200 agenda going into this other than just to talk about 14 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:54.520 new Hope and what it means, what it means to us, 15 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:57.960 what we believe it means more more generally speaking, more 16 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:03.320 objectively speaking, I think that Star Wars is definitely especially 17 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:05.480 when we're talking about the original series, it's the kind 18 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:07.480 of thing that can be approached from a number of 19 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:11.200 different angles, and I think that I like the way 20 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:14.000 that this conversation went. You're going to see that it 21 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:16.599 is kind of kind of free flowing kind of I'm 22 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:19.439 kind of unstructured, but I think that there's benefit in 23 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:22.000 that as well, in taking a generalist kind of approach. 24 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:25.719 But I do think that maybe once we finished the 25 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:31.959 original series, I might do a solo deep dive into 26 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:35.680 kind of what Star Wars. How I would map out 27 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:40.439 Star Wars existentially, how I map it out philosophically, especially 28 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.400 in relation to the work of Joseph Campbell and even 29 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:48.239 Carl Jung and even some of the great theologians and philosophers. 30 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:50.560 I think that there's a lot to do there. But 31 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:52.359 to do that, I feel like I need to I 32 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:55.159 need to ride the rails here on my trains of 33 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.079 thought and kind of put some more things together. And 34 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:00.680 so I'll probably provide something really structured by myself once 35 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:02.760 we get through the trilogy, But for now, I think 36 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:06.120 that these are very useful and very very just enriching, 37 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:09.199 very fun conversations that we have in a less of 38 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:12.240 a structured way. And one last comment before we jump 39 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:17.520 into this conversation that after this episode, we are going 40 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:21.879 to be spinning off a third Mythic Mind podcast. So 41 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:24.120 we already have this one, which is really our central hub. 42 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:28.360 We recently began the Mythic Mind Games podcast, which focuses 43 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:33.080 on video games from a Christian humanities perspective. And now 44 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:36.000 we're going to be spinning off the Mythic Mind Movies 45 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:39.080 and Shows podcasts, which is where you'll be finding the 46 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.479 rest of the Star Wars conversations after this, and so 47 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.479 you can find the Empire Strikes Back on the Mythic 48 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:49.719 Mind Movies and Shows podcast and that is scheduled to 49 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:53.800 be available on June thirteenth, and so it's going to 50 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:57.680 be alternating every other Friday, alternating with the Mythic Mind 51 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:00.280 Games podcast. If we get to the point where I'm 52 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:03.120 closer to being fully funded, well maybe we can move 53 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:05.639 things around. And eventually I would love to have weekly 54 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.159 episodes of all these different podcasts playing at once, and 55 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:10.439 I'll give you a reminder about that in next week's 56 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:13.159 standard Mythic Mind podcast. But for now, it's going to 57 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:15.240 get into the conversation that I had with David and 58 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:22.120 Ian on a new Hope. All right, welcome back as 59 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.080 we continue our Star Wars series, smaller group here. We'll 60 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:29.560 wrangle up some more next time, but appreciate Ian and 61 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:33.080 David joining us again. Seeing Ian for the second time 62 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:35.759 today after we talked for the Games podcast this morning 63 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:39.439 on the Old Republic game. But today we're here to 64 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:42.599 talk about a new hope. You know, we don't have it, 65 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:44.639 or at least I don't have a super clear vision 66 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:46.240 of kind of where we're going. But really we're just 67 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:51.960 delving into you know, what is this movie about, fundamentally 68 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:56.400 to us or or more wide reaching. I mean, obviously 69 00:03:56.400 --> 00:04:00.680 this is the story that launched an entire franchise that 70 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:04.960 continues today, continues to grow, continues to develop, although if 71 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:07.280 Jordan were here, he would certainly say that it does 72 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:11.159 not continue to grow and develop. But obviously there was 73 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:13.759 something here and that the first movie when it first 74 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:18.120 came out is kind of this pulpy sci fi almost 75 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.560 has like a B movie kind of feel to it initially, 76 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:26.279 but then with this this incredible success that it had, 77 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:28.680 you know, it just we just kept on going. I mean, 78 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:32.519 we get these glorious things like the holiday special that 79 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:37.040 you know, continue to keep it. Oh wait, sorry, it 80 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:38.439 is kind of funny to be that because of the 81 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.600 early popularity Star Wars, they had to brush that out 82 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.319 to you know, trying to you know, keep the momentum going. 83 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:49.680 Fortunately Star Wars kept going despite that attempt. But we'll 84 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:51.839 we'll cover or at least I don't know if anyone 85 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.399 else will be masochistic enough to join me, but eventually 86 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:58.439 we'll cover that in its own right. But back for 87 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:01.160 New Hope, I mean, obviously we're doing very significant here. 88 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:03.600 Lucas was doing something very significant here, and we're gonna 89 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:07.920 get at least the attimpt to figure out what that 90 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.720 is that he was getting at. And so, you know, 91 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:16.959 maybe we'll just start by asking, you know, me and David, 92 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:21.160 what is your you know, what is this experience, What 93 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:23.639 is your experience with this movie? What in your estimation, 94 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:26.639 just broadly speaking, makes this a great movie? A great 95 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:28.480 starts with the franchise, and then we can just pay 96 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:32.600 the conversation wherever it naturally goes from there. David, you 97 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:33.360 want to start us off? 98 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:34.720 Sure? 99 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:40.560 Yeah. I mentioned in our Kohor talk that I was 100 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:44.399 three when this movie came out, and I remember with 101 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:47.319 the family we we drove to a nearby town that 102 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:49.920 was showing it to see it, and and then I 103 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.920 mainly remember that the Tusken Raiders scared me when they 104 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:59.040 popped up in front of Luke and scared him. But yeah, 105 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:03.279 so I'm I'm a be a fair judge because I 106 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:07.519 have so much nostalgia through my entire life that began 107 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:14.759 with this movie. But when you compare this just the 108 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:20.040 quality of these movies to other science fiction but more 109 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:23.600 more fantasy than science fiction, I would say we could 110 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:26.360 talk about that later, but I would I would consider 111 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:31.519 this fantasy and not really science fiction. But it just 112 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:38.040 was so much better and seriously treated and well made 113 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:43.160 than most similar fare from the nineteen seventies and earlier. 114 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.680 And I think it really caused a huge shift in 115 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:51.120 the popular culture and more of a that everybody would 116 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.040 be interested in it than just you know, like the 117 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:55.800 Star Trek fans and things like that. That it gave 118 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:58.759 it a broader appeal that allowed for a lot of 119 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:01.279 the kind of movies that we saw coming after this. 120 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:05.240 But I do think just the sort of Hero's journey 121 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.600 in it is a great way to begin and draw 122 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:11.519 everyone in, and just to put it in such a 123 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:13.040 unique and interesting setting. 124 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.000 I've always loved it. 125 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:19.399 Yeah, I mean, obviously that Hero's Journey dynamic because something 126 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:22.160 has often comes into Star Wars conversations with you know, 127 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:26.040 Lucas himself citing you know, Campbell's Here with a Thousand 128 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:29.560 Faces as a major inspiration, which is which very much 129 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.600 deals with this idea of the hero's journey. In fact, 130 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:36.480 I pulled I'm currently reading through the the Here with 131 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:38.759 a Thousand Faces, and I pulled a couple of quotes here, 132 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:43.399 and at one point he says, actually this was from 133 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:46.079 an interview that he did with with Bill Moyers. So 134 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:48.879 he said, the adventure of the hero is the adventure 135 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:50.800 of being alive, right, So the adventure of the hero 136 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:53.680 is the adventure that we all should take, that we 137 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:56.800 all have responsibility to take, to let go of where 138 00:07:56.839 --> 00:07:58.920 you came from in a way of hopefully gaining it 139 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:00.600 back in the end, which is a very very Christian 140 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:04.439 idea and definitely an idea that you see in Carl Jung, 141 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:06.879 you see coming out in Campbell, and definitely idea you 142 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.319 see coming out in Lucas, that that Luke story is 143 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:12.560 supposed to be everybody's story as they continue to put 144 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:14.879 their life together, and that spans across the trilogy. So 145 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:16.959 I'll try to limit myself to New Hope, but I 146 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:20.279 do think that in addition to just the aesthetics of 147 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:23.879 emerging sci fi with with fantasy, and I do agree 148 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:27.279 it is first and foremost of fantasy, though it has 149 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:31.160 the kind of sci fi aesthetics to it, that it's 150 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:34.519 really it's that that mix of genre. Most fundamentally, it's 151 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:39.759 that it's that existential tale that I think that we 152 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:41.720 can all relate to, or at least that we all 153 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:43.559 should be able to relate to on some level, which 154 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:47.759 gives that that staying power. It's before I go off 155 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:50.799 to far here, Ian can tell us something about what 156 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:53.559 makes us a good story to you or objectively, however 157 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:54.240 you want to handle it. 158 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:59.240 Well. I saw this when I was about nine, and 159 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:04.960 i'd read the novelization first. I think I mentioned previous podcasts. 160 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.440 I was very much in the mindset that you should 161 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:10.159 read the book before you watch the movie, and I 162 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:15.440 didn't really understand what a novelization meant. So I read 163 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:19.799 all the novelizations before I saw the movies. And it's 164 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:24.720 difficult with these formative movies to see them as movies 165 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:29.159 in the same way you see something that you experienced 166 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:33.960 and analyzed as an adult. And so for me, I 167 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:37.879 rewatched the entire trilogy a couple months ago, and it 168 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:42.480 was really interesting applying all the things I've learned in 169 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:50.279 English and reading various film reviews and film textbooks, like 170 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.759 how the film is constructed, the various techniques used to 171 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:57.799 create the shots, the writing techniques used to build tension 172 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:00.720 and paid off, just the way the film put together. 173 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:06.200 And I'm still I'm still wrestling with that because a 174 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:08.200 part of me is still that nine year old who 175 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:11.120 watched Star Wars and you know, I was Luke. I 176 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.039 was in the trench with him in the X Wing, 177 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:15.519 I was with him in the in the Death Star 178 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:19.480 garbage compact. Like there's such a visceral connection you have 179 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:21.960 when you see a movie at the right age, and 180 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:25.440 you can really just immerse yourself in the world. I 181 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:29.120 think if you look at other movies around the same time, 182 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:32.759 in the same general genre, you have, of course, The 183 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:37.200 Last Starfighter. That one gets cited a lot. I of 184 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:40.200 course watched that much much later as an adult, and 185 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:44.679 so it is not fair because I can certainly see 186 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:48.799 some wish fulfillment and immaturities and storytellings in a New Hope, 187 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:55.320 but there's nothing, there's nothing comparable to how weak Last 188 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:59.679 Starfighter is in terms of pure wish fulfillment and teen 189 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:02.840 boy he plays video game becomes savior of the universe 190 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:05.879 because video Game is actually alien plan to train him 191 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:10.159 to save the universe. Is Everything is way too convenient 192 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:15.200 in Last Starfighter, whereas in Star Wars there's a few 193 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:17.679 things that are convenient, But in general, I would say 194 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:21.000 it feels like he sets up the rules of the world. 195 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:23.000 For Lucas sets up the rules of the world at 196 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:27.639 the beginning, and he doesn't create new powers or new 197 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:32.600 technologies that solve the problems for our hero as he 198 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:36.200 goes along. It's just here's the rules of the technology, 199 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:38.519 and our hero has to work within them. And I 200 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:41.200 think that's the sign of stronger writing and why a 201 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:44.519 new Hope has lasted, where stuff like Lest Starfighter might 202 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:47.000 have a lot of nostologic value for people who saw 203 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:49.559 it at the right age, but if you watch it 204 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.039 as an adult, they don't think it holds up anywhere close. 205 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:57.000 I think that one thing that Lucas did really well 206 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.039 here is that, you know, he talked about how he 207 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:03.440 wanted the beginning of this story, that the saga to 208 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:05.879 not be in the beginning. He wanted it to be 209 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:09.279 let's just let's not spend time doing world building. I 210 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.360 mean at least that will happen naturally, you know, as 211 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.799 we tell the story. But it's first and foremost it's 212 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:17.279 it's a human story. This is why the original trilogy 213 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:21.120 is I think so much more compelling than say, the prequels. 214 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:22.679 And we've talked about this a little bit and in 215 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.200 some of the other conversations, but that the original trilogy 216 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.360 is very much a human story centered centered around Luke 217 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:33.440 and obviously the characters around him, but especially in Luke 218 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:38.399 his journey to reconcile with his the darkness in his 219 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:40.440 past that he didn't even know about. Uh, you know, 220 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:42.840 this idea of you have to redeem your father from 221 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:45.879 the great from the underworld essentially, you know, from from 222 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.039 the belly of the Whale to use Pinocchio or I 223 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:54.480 guess Jordan Peterson imagery there. But you know, then once 224 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.200 you get to the prequels, we're dealing a lot more 225 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:01.039 with the grand scale political angle. But I think that 226 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:03.120 that's just another thing that makes this, I think, such 227 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:04.840 a compelling story that it is very much it's a 228 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:08.279 human story. I don't know, do you guys have any 229 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:09.399 order to shoot off from here? 230 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:16.919 Well, I just on the issue of people arguing whether 231 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.399 it's sci fi or fantasy, you know. Robert Heinlein said 232 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:25.799 that he defined sci fi as realistic speculation about future events, 233 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:27.799 which is not what Star Wars does at all. And 234 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:33.200 I feel like Lucas tried to to stop that up 235 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:36.000 front with the whole a long time ago in a 236 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:39.240 galaxy far far away, which is how you would start 237 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:40.200 a fairy tale. 238 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:44.480 And the way that he used, you. 239 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.159 Know, the circle wipes and some of the interesting transitions 240 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:49.879 that he does. I feel like he was trying to 241 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:54.919 throw back to like old movie theater serials like Flash Gordon, 242 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.200 things like that. Like he he loved those kinds of things, 243 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:00.279 and he was trying to have fun until that sort 244 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:04.320 of a story. He wasn't trying to speculate about how 245 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.039 humanity would react to. 246 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:09.799 You know, AI or the. 247 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:14.159 You know, there's just the existence of these robots in 248 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:17.399 the Star Wars universe who are essentially slaves, and they 249 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.679 don't really deal with that at all. I mean, if 250 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:24.799 you you know, if you mentally put Star Wars in 251 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.159 a medieval or a tolkien Esque sort of a setting, 252 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.600 the droids would have to be slaves. I mean, basically, 253 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:34.879 these slave traders come through, they come out and pick 254 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:37.039 the ones they want and then they learn more about 255 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:39.440 what's going on in the outside world. That's a clever, 256 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:43.840 a clever storytelling mechanic and way to bring Luke in. 257 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:45.240 I think I. 258 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:52.120 Think the opening and focusing on those droids is that 259 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.320 was something nobody had ever really seen before. Like you 260 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:58.320 have a guy wearing a full metal costume and basically 261 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.519 a trash can doing all the acting for a pretty 262 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.639 long sequence there until we meet Luke. 263 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:06.279 And that was. 264 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:12.720 Telling the story from the position of these lowly characters. 265 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:17.639 That was something that Lucas took from the character Osawa 266 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.159 film The Hidden Fortress. You know that he's kind of 267 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:23.919 famously admitted that that's where he got some of these 268 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:29.320 ideas that you tell it from the perspective of characters 269 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.399 who aren't really the hero, and I think that really 270 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:34.360 made for some interesting storytelling. 271 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:42.879 Yeah. I think there's also a sense of the spiritual, 272 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:48.200 which I think makes it more human. A lot of 273 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:51.679 I personally consider Star Wars more science fiction because of 274 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:56.279 the aesthetics, but there's definitely a huge element of the fantasy, 275 00:15:57.080 --> 00:16:00.639 and I think that the force and the way it's 276 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:06.039 connected to doing the right thing and fighting against evil 277 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:12.159 and connected to a knightly or monastic tradition. I think 278 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:17.879 it gives it a more there's more life in it 279 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:22.840 than something like Doune. Like Dune is incredibly rich and powerful, 280 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:26.600 but it's so cynical and so atheistic. Every piece of 281 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:31.240 religion is seen as manipulation and man made, whereas the 282 00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:34.000 Force is an objective reality. It is a thing that 283 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.559 does stuff that we can see. You know, You've got 284 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.759 your Hansul who's like, you know, give me a good 285 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.879 blaster any day. But you know, obi Wan can teach 286 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.200 Luke to see without his eyes and block blasser buls, 287 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:50.039 and he can you know, use his own lightsaber to 288 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:54.039 defend people. Like the Force is real. And I think 289 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:58.799 that's more interesting than you know, your voice of command 290 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.440 caused by genetic manipulation in Dune, which again is not 291 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:04.519 to say I think Dune is bad. I just think 292 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.759 that there's a cynicism to don that's not present in 293 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:14.079 the best of Star Wars, even something as you know, 294 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.599 more gritty like and Or. There's a really great article 295 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:20.200 by Hannah Long that just came out about how and 296 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.759 Or points us back to the centrality of the family. 297 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:28.799 The mother, the father, the son and those relationships instead 298 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:33.119 of just being real politic and manipulation and murder, there's 299 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.000 there's love that is at the heart of our struggle 300 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:41.519 for justice in a better world. So I think that 301 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.880 a new Hope lays all those found foundations. 302 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:51.799 Yeah, to go on the idea of the fact that 303 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.000 in Star Wars, obviously the Force is something real, whether 304 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:58.799 people recognize her and not. And obviously it can be misused, 305 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.559 or it can be bent by it is, or at 306 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:03.720 least maybe maybe can be it can be misrelated to. 307 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:05.519 Maybe that's even a better way of saying it than 308 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:07.799 saying the Force itself is bent. But people misrelate to 309 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.000 the Force and in so doing they themselves become bent. 310 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:17.440 To use some Lewis language there, but the fact that 311 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.240 there is this this fundamental reality that everybody by nature 312 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.559 has some access to. You know, you have your Force 313 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.920 users who are the wizards of sorts, but everybody, by 314 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.680 nature of being alive has a connection to this reality. 315 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.839 Which I think that that is you know, a lot 316 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:37.160 of times these conversations I've referenced Augustine. I think that's 317 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:40.000 a very Augustine kind of Christian platonic way of seeing 318 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:43.160 things that underneath all of existence, underneath all of life 319 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.519 is this fundamental reality, and that good and evil comes 320 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:50.480 down to are you orienting yourself toward that reality or 321 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.519 away from that reality? And as you relate or as 322 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:56.400 you turn away from the reality, you're turning away from yourself, right, 323 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.079 you lose yourself to the shadow, so to speak. And 324 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:01.559 it's at this point where we can very easily shift 325 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:04.880 from the Augustinian language to the Jungian language, to the 326 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.119 Campbell language, to the kind of things that really appealed to, 327 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.799 to Star Wars, to Lucas as you put Star Wars together, 328 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.400 and so as we followed that line of thought, I 329 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:20.440 think that we are dealing with something real as portrayed 330 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:22.680 in a fictional world. Like I think this reality to 331 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.839 the fiction, that the idea that we are all bound 332 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.480 together by this reality that we decide how we relate. 333 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:31.920 To another quote to pull from from Campbell, when he 334 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:37.799 says myths are public, dreams, dreams are private, and myths, 335 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.039 I think that when we look at and Lewis actually 336 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:44.240 says something very similar to this towards the end, until 337 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:48.519 we have faces about how something about how the difference 338 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:51.480 between dreams and reality is that wanted to experience individually 339 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.920 once experience corporately, but nonetheless both can be real in 340 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:58.480 their own way. I think that Star Wars is that 341 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:03.720 kind of public myth in that it's it's so gripping 342 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.440 because we recognize there is reality to it, even if 343 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.640 we don't recognize what that reality is. I think it's 344 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:11.319 one of those things that just speaks so deeply to 345 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.759 the human psyche because even as the force is real, 346 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:21.039 it symbolically speaking stands for something real in the primary world. 347 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:24.920 So I think it's an interesting point and something makes 348 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.319 it so compelling and even too yea go ahead, David, Well. 349 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:33.039 When we have Han who doesn't believe in it and 350 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.480 expressly says so, you know, but he he gradually comes 351 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:39.559 around to it. I mean eventually it becomes unavoidable with 352 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.279 some of the things I think he sees. Once you 353 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.599 can see somebody move things with without touching them, I 354 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.000 think that will have an effect at some point. And 355 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:52.359 like the guy in the meeting with Darth Vader who 356 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:55.640 just basically taunts him and had been his sorcerer's ways 357 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.720 and he just starts choking him from across the room, 358 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.599 that that should give you pause for how you're talking 359 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.799 about these forces that you don't understand, which I always 360 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:06.559 thought was funny. 361 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:15.599 I also think that you have these these familial relationships 362 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.400 kind of woven throughout. You've got Luke and his aunt 363 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:21.720 and uncle explicitly, and then his longing for a father 364 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.599 and obi Wan's We're not sure how much Luke is 365 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:28.960 new at the time, but it's definitely false now a 366 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:31.799 story of his father being a pilot and killed by 367 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:35.440 Darth Vader and obi Wan kind of taking a father 368 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:43.279 or uncle or maybe grandfatherly role to Luke himself. There's 369 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:49.759 a lot of human stuff that I think drags you 370 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:53.960 into the characters is they're not just kind of atomized 371 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:57.279 individuals wandering around. They've got connections to people, and they 372 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:01.279 form new connections to people, reformed the connections to them 373 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:02.680 as the characters as we're going on. 374 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:06.839 Yeah, And that's one of the values of telling such 375 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:10.920 an archetypically driven story that it is so easy to 376 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:14.960 make those relations. And you know, I can say that 377 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:19.839 as I've been familiar with these stories as long as 378 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:21.880 I can remember, I don't remember seeing a New Hope 379 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:24.079 for the first time. I just I've always been familiar 380 00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:27.160 with it. But as i've gotten older, I relate to 381 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:30.000 it in different ways. I mean, and going a little 382 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.160 bit beyond a new hope. Since becoming a father, I 383 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.079 relate to that Luke Vader connection or the redemption of 384 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:40.160 the father by the son, like I connected that in 385 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:43.359 a new way, not that my father is like Darth Vader, 386 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:46.000 but at the same time, I just the point is 387 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:48.759 that because these things are so real, I feel like 388 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:52.960 as you become more real through age and through experience, 389 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:55.680 they themselves become more real to you. And I think 390 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.960 that that family angle is definitely a significant one for me. 391 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:04.960 And by the way, you mentioned his first encounters with 392 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.359 with obi Wan at least as their first encounters in 393 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.519 the movie, and to put another notion that the fantasy 394 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:15.759 tally here, you know, Lucas does readily admit that obi 395 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:21.319 Wan is very largely influenced by Gandolf. That that you know, 396 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:23.079 of course I know him. He's me like that. That's 397 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.039 a very Gandolphian way of talking. You consider how he 398 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.559 talks to Bilbo, so he was just like the way 399 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.839 that he introduces himself to us, you know, through through Luke. 400 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:35.039 It's very much influenced by by Gandolf. 401 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:42.799