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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo.

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<v Speaker 1>And Lorenzo on this episode, I want to talk about feedback,

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<v Speaker 1>but specifically feedback when it comes to the employees or

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<v Speaker 1>the people on your teams who usually do things well,

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<v Speaker 1>the high performing individuals. I think sometimes we do a

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<v Speaker 1>disservice to our high performing individuals in terms of the

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<v Speaker 1>feedback that we give them or don't give them because

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<v Speaker 1>we're focusing on you know, you'll saying the squeaky wheel

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<v Speaker 1>gets the grease. The employees who are not doing the

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<v Speaker 1>right things all the time tend to get a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the feedback, and I think that we can, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we can miss some opportunities when it comes to our

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<v Speaker 1>high performing individuals when it comes to having, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of giving better feedback, more effective feedback. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a great topic because I think about

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<v Speaker 2>this on two sides of the table. The first side

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<v Speaker 2>of the table was like, there are points in my life,

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<v Speaker 2>especially as like an individual contributor, where I was that

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<v Speaker 2>high performing employee. Sure, as a high performed employee, I

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not gonna lie. I kind of liked the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that I was left alone I would roll my eyes

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes if somebody would come over and try to like

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<v Speaker 2>spend time with me around like, well, like let's go

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<v Speaker 2>through this, uh, this this, you know sop assessment. Let

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<v Speaker 2>let me ask you some questions around you know how

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<v Speaker 2>you do these things? And I'm just like I've got

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<v Speaker 2>it all memorized. I know exactly what to say. I

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<v Speaker 2>do good work, like you know, I also know that

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<v Speaker 2>like if I am producing as an individual contributor and

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<v Speaker 2>then you do an assessment on me, well your assessment

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<v Speaker 2>better be good because you know, how do you how

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<v Speaker 2>do you work through the fact that I'm getting the

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<v Speaker 2>outcomes that you want? And so I think it's a

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<v Speaker 2>good topic because as a person in that seat sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't feel that it was valued if it was

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<v Speaker 2>approached in a certain.

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<v Speaker 1>Way right right.

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<v Speaker 2>And then on the other side of it, as a leader,

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<v Speaker 2>I would tell you completely guilty sometimes of absolutely saying

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<v Speaker 2>like when you have a high performing person on your team,

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<v Speaker 2>there can definitely be situations where it's just like I

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna let Chris do his thing because I

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<v Speaker 2>got other things I gotta work on. Yeah, and like

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<v Speaker 2>like this and I'll check in with Chris and I'll

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<v Speaker 2>make sure he feels good, but at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the day, like he's probably not going to get my

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<v Speaker 2>intentional attention as much as he should because I have

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<v Speaker 2>other things that are going on. So I've seen it

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<v Speaker 2>on both sides there, and so I think it's important

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about because if you if we want to

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<v Speaker 2>have the context of like keeping high performing employees high performing,

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<v Speaker 2>then we have to have a very deliberate strategy and

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<v Speaker 2>intention around how we're doing that and how we're helping them.

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<v Speaker 2>And as I kind of planned the seat earlier when

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<v Speaker 2>I said, like certain approaches when I was an individual contributor,

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<v Speaker 2>because I can tell you that I did get some

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<v Speaker 2>constructive feedback and coaching from leaders and from other individuals

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<v Speaker 2>when I was high performing, based upon the way they

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<v Speaker 2>approached it and the respect that they had to the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that I kind of had these other things under control.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't feel like I was getting constructive feedback like

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<v Speaker 2>every body else. I felt that I was getting constructive

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<v Speaker 2>feedback specific to me, my knowledge, my capability, recognizing what

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<v Speaker 2>I do well, but then diving deeper into some of

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<v Speaker 2>the things to some of the stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Right for sure, you know, I when you talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the situation where you know somebody coming you get tret

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<v Speaker 1>attempting to give you feedback. It's like, I've had this,

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<v Speaker 1>and honestly, it it comes from ego or it I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if it comes from ego or if or

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<v Speaker 1>if the situation has it's unavoidable that that situation can

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<v Speaker 1>lead to anything other than ego. It's like, I do

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<v Speaker 1>you you hear positive feedback when you're first starting out

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<v Speaker 1>and you and you get, you get all the feedback

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<v Speaker 1>you're given is positive, and then people stop, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people start leaving you alone and they stop giving you

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<v Speaker 1>feedback because you're doing everything right. How does that not

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<v Speaker 1>lead to a little bit of an ego? And then

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<v Speaker 1>and then you start there and then in the absence

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<v Speaker 1>of feedback, because you've done everything right, you that ego

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<v Speaker 1>builds up. And then if somebody does come to want

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<v Speaker 1>to give you feedback on something, there's almost this air

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<v Speaker 1>of superiority almost like who are you to give me feedback? Right?

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<v Speaker 1>And it's like that's a very unhealthy place to be

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<v Speaker 1>in a relationship between a leader and an employee if

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<v Speaker 1>that's where it's arrived, and it's completely avoidable, if it's

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<v Speaker 1>done the right way from the very beginning. It's because

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<v Speaker 1>because feedback is a constant cycle, and it's a constant

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<v Speaker 1>loop of a relationship that occurs between a leader and

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<v Speaker 1>an employee, and it happens regardless of whether an employee

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<v Speaker 1>is doing something wrong. You don't have to wait for

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<v Speaker 1>an employee to do something wrong to have a conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with them about about feedback and about getting better. There

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<v Speaker 1>are things you can discuss with employees all the time

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<v Speaker 1>that can essentially lead the employee to at least have

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<v Speaker 1>this sense of there's a relationship here. There's me and

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<v Speaker 1>there's my leader, and we have a working relationship and

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<v Speaker 1>these and we have conversations and they happen period, they

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<v Speaker 1>happen on a rhythm, and we're going to have those

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<v Speaker 1>conversations regardless, and sometimes there's going to be feedback that

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<v Speaker 1>I need to work on. Sometimes there's not going to be,

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<v Speaker 1>but we have those conversations. It's it's when you stop

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<v Speaker 1>having them altogether that's starting them up again. When something

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<v Speaker 1>is needed becomes really awkward and really difficult, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>when the leaders go, you know what, I'm just gonna

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<v Speaker 1>let Chris do his thing and we're going to go

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<v Speaker 1>talk to other other employees instead. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's a great point in you're spot on, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's exactly what ends up happening. I think is that

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<v Speaker 2>it becomes if you're not having this consistency in how

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<v Speaker 2>you you know, talk to your people and how you

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<v Speaker 2>evaluate their performance and how you provide constructive feedback, if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't have that really solidified and kind of built

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<v Speaker 2>into you know, built built with more intention than just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like it's going to happen naturally. We tend

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<v Speaker 2>to do that. We tend to build it with intention

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<v Speaker 2>when we know we have to address things that are

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<v Speaker 2>from from not high performing employees or things that you know, opportunity.

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<v Speaker 2>He's in the business like, we have a lot more

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<v Speaker 2>intention when we have to go do something to change

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<v Speaker 2>something and get something that's a different output than we've

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<v Speaker 2>been getting. What we tend to see is that we

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<v Speaker 2>don't have that same level of rigidness to our intention

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<v Speaker 2>around you know, feedback, you know, coaching, teaching, follow up, validation, assessment.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't do all of that until we absolutely have to.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't have it as an ongoing thing, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think then it feels very foreign. It feels weird. It

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<v Speaker 2>feels like, Okay, what's going on now? Oh you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>like yep, you know, here comes Chris. Chris is gonna

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<v Speaker 2>come talk to us about what's going on because it's

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<v Speaker 2>the first week of the month and we know that

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<v Speaker 2>that's when Chris has to go around and talk to

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<v Speaker 2>everybody about, you know, last month and what's happening versus

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<v Speaker 2>Oh hey, here comes Chris. You know, hey, you know

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on? And you know, we know that we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to talk something about you know, our personal stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>something about business. We're gonna have a good conversation and

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<v Speaker 2>dialogue here. But a part of it's going to be like,

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<v Speaker 2>is there something that you know he can help me with.

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<v Speaker 2>I know Chris is gonna come over here and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I just want to give you some, you know, some

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<v Speaker 2>recognition on something that I saw some continued work here.

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<v Speaker 2>Really appreciate kind of the streak of consistency you have. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>let's dig in a little bit here right in this

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<v Speaker 2>space to talk to me about this. Talk to me

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<v Speaker 2>about something that you feel you want to refine or

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<v Speaker 2>get better at that will help you continue to have

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<v Speaker 2>this level of high performance or Chris can say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>great job with all of this. I noticed that there's

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of things that may may maybe something you

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<v Speaker 2>want to take a look at. Let's take a look

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<v Speaker 2>at these things together. You know, are these outcomes or

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<v Speaker 2>is this approach Is this reflective of you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>outcomes that you want. Is this reflective of your best

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<v Speaker 2>body of work? Is there something in here that you'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to see be better or to be more improved upon?

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<v Speaker 2>And I can show you the data and here's where

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<v Speaker 2>your data is, and here's where the rest of the

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<v Speaker 2>team is, or here's where this is versus the deadline.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, you stepping into this consistent dialogue and

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<v Speaker 2>conversation around allowing someone to when it comes to what

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<v Speaker 2>they're focused on, what they're working on, but also providing

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<v Speaker 2>them with data points and information that allows them to see,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, even if they don't maybe see it themselves,

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<v Speaker 2>they can see where they are maybe having an opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>where they need to close a gap on something. But

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<v Speaker 2>if Chris builds that continuously, and I know that that's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be a part of our you know, pretty

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<v Speaker 2>normal conversation. It has less to do whether if I'm

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<v Speaker 2>high performing or not but it does respect the fact

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<v Speaker 2>if I am high performing in the approach that he has.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. Well, let's talk about the assumptions here, because when

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking through that, I'm thinking, Okay, why as a

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<v Speaker 1>leader would I choose not to give feedback to a

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<v Speaker 1>person who is high performing? And I think what it

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<v Speaker 1>comes down to is it's almost like an assumption that

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<v Speaker 1>if if I see a person on my team who

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<v Speaker 1>is a low performer do something that is incorrect that

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<v Speaker 1>requires feedback, my knee jerk is to think, oh, that

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<v Speaker 1>low performing employee is doing something low performing, we need

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<v Speaker 1>to discuss that. And if it comes from a high

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<v Speaker 1>performing employee, the knee jerk is to think, oh, that

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<v Speaker 1>high performing person did something that is not high performing.

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<v Speaker 1>That's weird. I guess that must be a fluke. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>let it go because it must be a It's not

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<v Speaker 1>indicative of the larger performance, the larger person as a whole,

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<v Speaker 1>so we don't need to discuss that. Why why bring

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<v Speaker 1>them down with feedback on something that was clearly not

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<v Speaker 1>indicative of who they are as a person. Right? And

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<v Speaker 1>then what happens is the person who was that high

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<v Speaker 1>performing individual doesn't get that feedback and it wasn't a fluke.

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<v Speaker 1>It continues. But the next ten times it happens, you

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<v Speaker 1>just aren't there to notice it happening. And so it

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<v Speaker 1>happens until it gets to the point where it is

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<v Speaker 1>a habit and it becomes part of what they actually do.

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<v Speaker 1>And and if there are other people watching or other

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<v Speaker 1>leaders kind of watching, they kind of do the same

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<v Speaker 1>thing and they go, well, it's just a fluke, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you but but if the low performing person

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<v Speaker 1>does it again, you think, Okay, that's indicative of a

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<v Speaker 1>low performing individual. Clearly that person needs feedback. We go

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<v Speaker 1>give them feedback and then we move forward with it.

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<v Speaker 1>And so this, this kind of this is how you

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<v Speaker 1>turn a high performing employee into a low performing employee.

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<v Speaker 1>Is the lack of consistent feedback rhythm. And if you

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<v Speaker 1>have that consistent feedback rhythm, and it doesn't have to

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<v Speaker 1>be predictable, I'm not saying that if it's to the

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<v Speaker 1>point where the employees are rolling their eyes going, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>here here comes Lorenzo again. It's the first week of

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<v Speaker 1>the month. We're gonna have that conversation again. That's that's

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<v Speaker 1>not effective. Just doing it and going through the motions

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<v Speaker 1>isn't effective, right. You have to have a reason for

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<v Speaker 1>talking to the person, And if you don't have a

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<v Speaker 1>specific reason for talking to the person, it's okay to

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<v Speaker 1>say to them at the beginning of that conversation, Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>just so you know, I don't really know what we

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<v Speaker 1>have to talk about right now. In terms of the feedback.

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<v Speaker 1>You're doing a great job, but is there anything I

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<v Speaker 1>can support you with on, you know, getting you know

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<v Speaker 1>your goals. Also part of my job as a leader

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<v Speaker 1>is I have to have these conversations. So I don't

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<v Speaker 1>want you to think that i'm you know, when I

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<v Speaker 1>say to you, I'm interested in getting you success and

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<v Speaker 1>support and helping you, you know, get to the next step.

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<v Speaker 1>I really mean that. Just because I'm having this conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with you at this time because it was scheduled, doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean I don't care about that. It means that I'm

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<v Speaker 1>responsible as a leader to do these things. But I

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<v Speaker 1>still like doing them. I like doing them with you

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<v Speaker 1>because I think you're a high performing employee. What can

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<v Speaker 1>I do to help you get to the to the

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<v Speaker 1>next level. And so it's only a problem when the

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<v Speaker 1>employee thinks that you're going through motions and you don't

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<v Speaker 1>actually want to be there. If you tell them what

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<v Speaker 1>it is, if you tell them exactly why you're there

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<v Speaker 1>and what it is, then you remove all the smoke

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<v Speaker 1>and mirrors from it and it just becomes a conversation

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<v Speaker 1>between two people who are being real with each other.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you have that kind of a relationship with employee,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that the feedback conversations that eventually have to

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<v Speaker 1>happen they are far more smooth. And as a leader,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't kind of get that feeling in the pit

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<v Speaker 1>of your stomach when you have to have one going, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe should do I really have to have that one? No,

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<v Speaker 1>because you have a good relationship with that person. You

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<v Speaker 1>talk to them every month and you and you know

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<v Speaker 1>it's good.

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<v Speaker 2>Go well, absolutely, And with that it brings us this

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<v Speaker 2>episodes one minute Hack. But first a few words from

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<v Speaker 2>our sponsors.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, for this episode is one minute hack. Here's

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<v Speaker 1>what wants you to do if you're a leader of

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<v Speaker 1>people and you're finding it difficult or awkward or kind

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<v Speaker 1>of you know, unnatural to have feedback and coaching and

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<v Speaker 1>performance conversations with an employee because they are generally high

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<v Speaker 1>performing and they and they generally do their job really well.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's what I want you to do. I want you

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<v Speaker 1>to start those conversations from a standpoint of what they

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<v Speaker 1>can teach you. And so if you don't know how

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<v Speaker 1>to develop a feedback with them, with a person, to

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<v Speaker 1>kind of get into that place where you can have

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<v Speaker 1>great conversations so that when you can, when you have

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<v Speaker 1>to deliver constructive feedback, it becomes more easily and more naturally.

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<v Speaker 1>Then the conversations you have with that person have to

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<v Speaker 1>start with, Hey, I notice you're doing this really well.

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<v Speaker 1>I want other people to do it well too. Help

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<v Speaker 1>me do that. How do you do this well? Tell

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<v Speaker 1>me how you do this and how you get these

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<v Speaker 1>performance results so well consistently, so that we can help,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, translate that to the rest of the team

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<v Speaker 1>members who aren't doing it well. Hey, would you like

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<v Speaker 1>to be a part of that? Would you like to

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<v Speaker 1>help me teach other people? Whether or not they say yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that's fine, it's still your job as a leader to

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<v Speaker 1>get other people performing at that high level. And so

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<v Speaker 1>really being able to dig into how that person is

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<v Speaker 1>able to do it one, it will validate they're doing

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<v Speaker 1>it ethically, that they're doing it without cutting corners. They're

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<v Speaker 1>doing it, you know, with the behaviors that are supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to happen and not just trying to get the number.

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<v Speaker 1>And two, it will allow you to have an open

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<v Speaker 1>conversation with an employee that makes them feel good about

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<v Speaker 1>what they're doing well, and that develops that relationship of

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<v Speaker 1>a rhythm in terms of feedback, so that if something

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<v Speaker 1>comes up where they do have to have constructive feedback,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not awkward at all because you have a relationship

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<v Speaker 1>with them that is rooted in that feedback rhythm.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's a great woman to hack. And

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<v Speaker 2>I know I kind of alluded to this earlier, but

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<v Speaker 2>that approach around understanding and again it's one thing if

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<v Speaker 2>Chris is a high performing employee and is showing that

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<v Speaker 2>through behaviors and outcomes over a consistent amount of time.

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<v Speaker 2>Like my approach is exactly what you kind of talked about,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like number one, let's recognize the work. Number two,

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<v Speaker 2>what can I learn as a leader in this space?

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<v Speaker 2>What are things that I can see that I can

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<v Speaker 2>figure out and maybe maybe I.

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<v Speaker 1>Know what they are.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe I helped to develop Chris. Maybe Chris has taken

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<v Speaker 2>some of the things that I've taught him and he's

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<v Speaker 2>figured out ways to make his own. But it's important

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<v Speaker 2>the number one I recognize it. Number two that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>curious about what's going on and what am I seeing here,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's going to allow me to have a great

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<v Speaker 2>conversation where I'm sure I will discover an opportunity or

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<v Speaker 2>something that we can talk through or things that we

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<v Speaker 2>can ideate on together that may be helpful in refining.

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<v Speaker 2>And again, we tend to think of, you know, criticism

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<v Speaker 2>and just kind of like coaching in this like extremism

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<v Speaker 2>aspect of like, well, if I'm going to be critical

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<v Speaker 2>or give constructive feedback, it's like because it's just it's

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<v Speaker 2>a horrible thing that needs to be addressed. No, constructive

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<v Speaker 2>feedback can be small things of refinements. Constructive feedback can

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<v Speaker 2>be small like different approaches of ways of working that

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<v Speaker 2>are not trying to like close the gap between being

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<v Speaker 2>a massive underperformer to them being great, Like like it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's just intentional dialogue and time to help Chris get better. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>if Chris is an underperformer, that conversation may look a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit different. I might lead more with curiosity I'm

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<v Speaker 2>bringing to lead more with Hey, let's review this together.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you see? What do I see? What are

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<v Speaker 2>some things here? You know, where are things like? Maybe

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<v Speaker 2>maybe we can we can you know, go back and

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<v Speaker 2>forth a little bit. I can, I can roll model

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<v Speaker 2>this for you, right, Let me try and then you

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<v Speaker 2>tell me how I did.

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<v Speaker 1>What did you see?

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<v Speaker 2>Differently? What are you learning like? It's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>a different approach. And I think that's the main kind

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<v Speaker 2>of element of this whole thing when it comes to

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<v Speaker 2>understanding that number one, it has to happen for everyone,

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<v Speaker 2>but number two, you do have to adjust the approach

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<v Speaker 2>based upon who you have, you know, across the table

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<v Speaker 2>from you, or you know, in the office with you,

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<v Speaker 2>or on the floor with you.

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<v Speaker 1>The goal here, remember, is to have a relationship with

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<v Speaker 1>a person like that. That's as simple as I can

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<v Speaker 1>make it. If you have a relationship with a person

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<v Speaker 1>that is rooted in a rhythm, that where the conversations

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<v Speaker 1>you have are productive and there's a good relationship there,

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<v Speaker 1>then when the feedback is needed, you don't think to

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<v Speaker 1>yourself as a leader, maybe I'll let this one go.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe I'll i'll you know, I don't want to I

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to, you know, ruffle the feathers a little bit. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>Lorenzo's a high performer. We're not gonna we won't saying

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<v Speaker 1>anything this time. All of that is all those feelings

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<v Speaker 1>are caused by a general sense that you don't have

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<v Speaker 1>a relationship with the person that is rooted in real

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<v Speaker 1>conversations that are honest and where you can give bi

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<v Speaker 1>directional feedback. If you don't feel that, that's where you

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<v Speaker 1>get those situations where the leader doesn't want to give

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<v Speaker 1>the feedback to the high performing individual. If you have

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<v Speaker 1>that relationship already, it's not even a thought. You just

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<v Speaker 1>go have the conversation. And so the solve here, the

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<v Speaker 1>way to do this is all about prep work and

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<v Speaker 1>not there's no there's no magic bullet to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>help you deliver high performing or feedback to high performers

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<v Speaker 1>when there isn't a relationship already. So if you want

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<v Speaker 1>to solve this problem, you need to go back to

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<v Speaker 1>the drawing board a little bit and begin by building

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<v Speaker 1>that relationship so that you can start delivering feedback in

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<v Speaker 1>a more effective way.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and with that it brings us to the end

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<v Speaker 2>of this episode. This is hacking leadership. I'm Lorenzo and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chris and we'll talk to you all next time.