Speaker 1: Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo.
Speaker 1: And Lorenzo on this episode, I want to talk about feedback,
Speaker 1: but specifically feedback when it comes to the employees or
Speaker 1: the people on your teams who usually do things well,
Speaker 1: the high performing individuals. I think sometimes we do a
Speaker 1: disservice to our high performing individuals in terms of the
Speaker 1: feedback that we give them or don't give them because
Speaker 1: we're focusing on you know, you'll saying the squeaky wheel
Speaker 1: gets the grease. The employees who are not doing the
Speaker 1: right things all the time tend to get a lot
Speaker 1: of the feedback, and I think that we can, you know,
Speaker 1: we can miss some opportunities when it comes to our
Speaker 1: high performing individuals when it comes to having, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of giving better feedback, more effective feedback. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it's a great topic because I think about
Speaker 2: this on two sides of the table. The first side
Speaker 2: of the table was like, there are points in my life,
Speaker 2: especially as like an individual contributor, where I was that
Speaker 2: high performing employee. Sure, as a high performed employee, I
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. I kind of liked the fact
Speaker 2: that I was left alone I would roll my eyes
Speaker 2: sometimes if somebody would come over and try to like
Speaker 2: spend time with me around like, well, like let's go
Speaker 2: through this, uh, this this, you know sop assessment. Let
Speaker 2: let me ask you some questions around you know how
Speaker 2: you do these things? And I'm just like I've got
Speaker 2: it all memorized. I know exactly what to say. I
Speaker 2: do good work, like you know, I also know that
Speaker 2: like if I am producing as an individual contributor and
Speaker 2: then you do an assessment on me, well your assessment
Speaker 2: better be good because you know, how do you how
Speaker 2: do you work through the fact that I'm getting the
Speaker 2: outcomes that you want? And so I think it's a
Speaker 2: good topic because as a person in that seat sometimes
Speaker 2: I didn't feel that it was valued if it was
Speaker 2: approached in a certain.
Speaker 1: Way right right.
Speaker 2: And then on the other side of it, as a leader,
Speaker 2: I would tell you completely guilty sometimes of absolutely saying
Speaker 2: like when you have a high performing person on your team,
Speaker 2: there can definitely be situations where it's just like I
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna let Chris do his thing because I
Speaker 2: got other things I gotta work on. Yeah, and like
Speaker 2: like this and I'll check in with Chris and I'll
Speaker 2: make sure he feels good, but at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, like he's probably not going to get my
Speaker 2: intentional attention as much as he should because I have
Speaker 2: other things that are going on. So I've seen it
Speaker 2: on both sides there, and so I think it's important
Speaker 2: to talk about because if you if we want to
Speaker 2: have the context of like keeping high performing employees high performing,
Speaker 2: then we have to have a very deliberate strategy and
Speaker 2: intention around how we're doing that and how we're helping them.
Speaker 2: And as I kind of planned the seat earlier when
Speaker 2: I said, like certain approaches when I was an individual contributor,
Speaker 2: because I can tell you that I did get some
Speaker 2: constructive feedback and coaching from leaders and from other individuals
Speaker 2: when I was high performing, based upon the way they
Speaker 2: approached it and the respect that they had to the
Speaker 2: fact that I kind of had these other things under control.
Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I was getting constructive feedback like
Speaker 2: every body else. I felt that I was getting constructive
Speaker 2: feedback specific to me, my knowledge, my capability, recognizing what
Speaker 2: I do well, but then diving deeper into some of
Speaker 2: the things to some of the stuff.
Speaker 1: Right for sure, you know, I when you talk about
Speaker 1: the situation where you know somebody coming you get tret
Speaker 1: attempting to give you feedback. It's like, I've had this,
Speaker 1: and honestly, it it comes from ego or it I
Speaker 1: don't know if it comes from ego or if or
Speaker 1: if the situation has it's unavoidable that that situation can
Speaker 1: lead to anything other than ego. It's like, I do
Speaker 1: you you hear positive feedback when you're first starting out
Speaker 1: and you and you get, you get all the feedback
Speaker 1: you're given is positive, and then people stop, you know,
Speaker 1: people start leaving you alone and they stop giving you
Speaker 1: feedback because you're doing everything right. How does that not
Speaker 1: lead to a little bit of an ego? And then
Speaker 1: and then you start there and then in the absence
Speaker 1: of feedback, because you've done everything right, you that ego
Speaker 1: builds up. And then if somebody does come to want
Speaker 1: to give you feedback on something, there's almost this air
Speaker 1: of superiority almost like who are you to give me feedback? Right?
Speaker 1: And it's like that's a very unhealthy place to be
Speaker 1: in a relationship between a leader and an employee if
Speaker 1: that's where it's arrived, and it's completely avoidable, if it's
Speaker 1: done the right way from the very beginning. It's because
Speaker 1: because feedback is a constant cycle, and it's a constant
Speaker 1: loop of a relationship that occurs between a leader and
Speaker 1: an employee, and it happens regardless of whether an employee
Speaker 1: is doing something wrong. You don't have to wait for
Speaker 1: an employee to do something wrong to have a conversation
Speaker 1: with them about about feedback and about getting better. There
Speaker 1: are things you can discuss with employees all the time
Speaker 1: that can essentially lead the employee to at least have
Speaker 1: this sense of there's a relationship here. There's me and
Speaker 1: there's my leader, and we have a working relationship and
Speaker 1: these and we have conversations and they happen period, they
Speaker 1: happen on a rhythm, and we're going to have those
Speaker 1: conversations regardless, and sometimes there's going to be feedback that
Speaker 1: I need to work on. Sometimes there's not going to be,
Speaker 1: but we have those conversations. It's it's when you stop
Speaker 1: having them altogether that's starting them up again. When something
Speaker 1: is needed becomes really awkward and really difficult, and that's
Speaker 1: when the leaders go, you know what, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: let Chris do his thing and we're going to go
Speaker 1: talk to other other employees instead. Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, it's a great point in you're spot on, and
Speaker 2: that's exactly what ends up happening. I think is that
Speaker 2: it becomes if you're not having this consistency in how
Speaker 2: you you know, talk to your people and how you
Speaker 2: evaluate their performance and how you provide constructive feedback, if
Speaker 2: you don't have that really solidified and kind of built
Speaker 2: into you know, built built with more intention than just
Speaker 2: kind of like it's going to happen naturally. We tend
Speaker 2: to do that. We tend to build it with intention
Speaker 2: when we know we have to address things that are
Speaker 2: from from not high performing employees or things that you know, opportunity.
Speaker 2: He's in the business like, we have a lot more
Speaker 2: intention when we have to go do something to change
Speaker 2: something and get something that's a different output than we've
Speaker 2: been getting. What we tend to see is that we
Speaker 2: don't have that same level of rigidness to our intention
Speaker 2: around you know, feedback, you know, coaching, teaching, follow up, validation, assessment.
Speaker 2: We don't do all of that until we absolutely have to.
Speaker 2: We don't have it as an ongoing thing, and I
Speaker 2: think then it feels very foreign. It feels weird. It
Speaker 2: feels like, Okay, what's going on now? Oh you know what,
Speaker 2: like yep, you know, here comes Chris. Chris is gonna
Speaker 2: come talk to us about what's going on because it's
Speaker 2: the first week of the month and we know that
Speaker 2: that's when Chris has to go around and talk to
Speaker 2: everybody about, you know, last month and what's happening versus
Speaker 2: Oh hey, here comes Chris. You know, hey, you know
Speaker 2: what's going on? And you know, we know that we're
Speaker 2: going to talk something about you know, our personal stuff,
Speaker 2: something about business. We're gonna have a good conversation and
Speaker 2: dialogue here. But a part of it's going to be like,
Speaker 2: is there something that you know he can help me with.
Speaker 2: I know Chris is gonna come over here and say, hey,
Speaker 2: I just want to give you some, you know, some
Speaker 2: recognition on something that I saw some continued work here.
Speaker 2: Really appreciate kind of the streak of consistency you have. Also,
Speaker 2: let's dig in a little bit here right in this
Speaker 2: space to talk to me about this. Talk to me
Speaker 2: about something that you feel you want to refine or
Speaker 2: get better at that will help you continue to have
Speaker 2: this level of high performance or Chris can say, hey,
Speaker 2: great job with all of this. I noticed that there's
Speaker 2: a couple of things that may may maybe something you
Speaker 2: want to take a look at. Let's take a look
Speaker 2: at these things together. You know, are these outcomes or
Speaker 2: is this approach Is this reflective of you know, the
Speaker 2: outcomes that you want. Is this reflective of your best
Speaker 2: body of work? Is there something in here that you'd
Speaker 2: like to see be better or to be more improved upon?
Speaker 2: And I can show you the data and here's where
Speaker 2: your data is, and here's where the rest of the
Speaker 2: team is, or here's where this is versus the deadline.
Speaker 2: So you know, you stepping into this consistent dialogue and
Speaker 2: conversation around allowing someone to when it comes to what
Speaker 2: they're focused on, what they're working on, but also providing
Speaker 2: them with data points and information that allows them to see,
Speaker 2: you know, even if they don't maybe see it themselves,
Speaker 2: they can see where they are maybe having an opportunity
Speaker 2: where they need to close a gap on something. But
Speaker 2: if Chris builds that continuously, and I know that that's
Speaker 2: going to be a part of our you know, pretty
Speaker 2: normal conversation. It has less to do whether if I'm
Speaker 2: high performing or not but it does respect the fact
Speaker 2: if I am high performing in the approach that he has.
Speaker 1: Right. Well, let's talk about the assumptions here, because when
Speaker 1: you're talking through that, I'm thinking, Okay, why as a
Speaker 1: leader would I choose not to give feedback to a
Speaker 1: person who is high performing? And I think what it
Speaker 1: comes down to is it's almost like an assumption that
Speaker 1: if if I see a person on my team who
Speaker 1: is a low performer do something that is incorrect that
Speaker 1: requires feedback, my knee jerk is to think, oh, that
Speaker 1: low performing employee is doing something low performing, we need
Speaker 1: to discuss that. And if it comes from a high
Speaker 1: performing employee, the knee jerk is to think, oh, that
Speaker 1: high performing person did something that is not high performing.
Speaker 1: That's weird. I guess that must be a fluke. Let's
Speaker 1: let it go because it must be a It's not
Speaker 1: indicative of the larger performance, the larger person as a whole,
Speaker 1: so we don't need to discuss that. Why why bring
Speaker 1: them down with feedback on something that was clearly not
Speaker 1: indicative of who they are as a person. Right? And
Speaker 1: then what happens is the person who was that high
Speaker 1: performing individual doesn't get that feedback and it wasn't a fluke.
Speaker 1: It continues. But the next ten times it happens, you
Speaker 1: just aren't there to notice it happening. And so it
Speaker 1: happens until it gets to the point where it is
Speaker 1: a habit and it becomes part of what they actually do.
Speaker 1: And and if there are other people watching or other
Speaker 1: leaders kind of watching, they kind of do the same
Speaker 1: thing and they go, well, it's just a fluke, you know.
Speaker 1: And if you but but if the low performing person
Speaker 1: does it again, you think, Okay, that's indicative of a
Speaker 1: low performing individual. Clearly that person needs feedback. We go
Speaker 1: give them feedback and then we move forward with it.
Speaker 1: And so this, this kind of this is how you
Speaker 1: turn a high performing employee into a low performing employee.
Speaker 1: Is the lack of consistent feedback rhythm. And if you
Speaker 1: have that consistent feedback rhythm, and it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be predictable, I'm not saying that if it's to the
Speaker 1: point where the employees are rolling their eyes going, you know,
Speaker 1: here here comes Lorenzo again. It's the first week of
Speaker 1: the month. We're gonna have that conversation again. That's that's
Speaker 1: not effective. Just doing it and going through the motions
Speaker 1: isn't effective, right. You have to have a reason for
Speaker 1: talking to the person, And if you don't have a
Speaker 1: specific reason for talking to the person, it's okay to
Speaker 1: say to them at the beginning of that conversation, Hey,
Speaker 1: just so you know, I don't really know what we
Speaker 1: have to talk about right now. In terms of the feedback.
Speaker 1: You're doing a great job, but is there anything I
Speaker 1: can support you with on, you know, getting you know
Speaker 1: your goals. Also part of my job as a leader
Speaker 1: is I have to have these conversations. So I don't
Speaker 1: want you to think that i'm you know, when I
Speaker 1: say to you, I'm interested in getting you success and
Speaker 1: support and helping you, you know, get to the next step.
Speaker 1: I really mean that. Just because I'm having this conversation
Speaker 1: with you at this time because it was scheduled, doesn't
Speaker 1: mean I don't care about that. It means that I'm
Speaker 1: responsible as a leader to do these things. But I
Speaker 1: still like doing them. I like doing them with you
Speaker 1: because I think you're a high performing employee. What can
Speaker 1: I do to help you get to the to the
Speaker 1: next level. And so it's only a problem when the
Speaker 1: employee thinks that you're going through motions and you don't
Speaker 1: actually want to be there. If you tell them what
Speaker 1: it is, if you tell them exactly why you're there
Speaker 1: and what it is, then you remove all the smoke
Speaker 1: and mirrors from it and it just becomes a conversation
Speaker 1: between two people who are being real with each other.
Speaker 1: And if you have that kind of a relationship with employee,
Speaker 1: I think that the feedback conversations that eventually have to
Speaker 1: happen they are far more smooth. And as a leader,
Speaker 1: you don't kind of get that feeling in the pit
Speaker 1: of your stomach when you have to have one going, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe should do I really have to have that one? No,
Speaker 1: because you have a good relationship with that person. You
Speaker 1: talk to them every month and you and you know
Speaker 1: it's good.
Speaker 2: Go well, absolutely, And with that it brings us this
Speaker 2: episodes one minute Hack. But first a few words from
Speaker 2: our sponsors.
Speaker 1: All right, for this episode is one minute hack. Here's
Speaker 1: what wants you to do if you're a leader of
Speaker 1: people and you're finding it difficult or awkward or kind
Speaker 1: of you know, unnatural to have feedback and coaching and
Speaker 1: performance conversations with an employee because they are generally high
Speaker 1: performing and they and they generally do their job really well.
Speaker 1: Here's what I want you to do. I want you
Speaker 1: to start those conversations from a standpoint of what they
Speaker 1: can teach you. And so if you don't know how
Speaker 1: to develop a feedback with them, with a person, to
Speaker 1: kind of get into that place where you can have
Speaker 1: great conversations so that when you can, when you have
Speaker 1: to deliver constructive feedback, it becomes more easily and more naturally.
Speaker 1: Then the conversations you have with that person have to
Speaker 1: start with, Hey, I notice you're doing this really well.
Speaker 1: I want other people to do it well too. Help
Speaker 1: me do that. How do you do this well? Tell
Speaker 1: me how you do this and how you get these
Speaker 1: performance results so well consistently, so that we can help,
Speaker 1: you know, translate that to the rest of the team
Speaker 1: members who aren't doing it well. Hey, would you like
Speaker 1: to be a part of that? Would you like to
Speaker 1: help me teach other people? Whether or not they say yes,
Speaker 1: that's fine, it's still your job as a leader to
Speaker 1: get other people performing at that high level. And so
Speaker 1: really being able to dig into how that person is
Speaker 1: able to do it one, it will validate they're doing
Speaker 1: it ethically, that they're doing it without cutting corners. They're
Speaker 1: doing it, you know, with the behaviors that are supposed
Speaker 1: to happen and not just trying to get the number.
Speaker 1: And two, it will allow you to have an open
Speaker 1: conversation with an employee that makes them feel good about
Speaker 1: what they're doing well, and that develops that relationship of
Speaker 1: a rhythm in terms of feedback, so that if something
Speaker 1: comes up where they do have to have constructive feedback,
Speaker 1: it's not awkward at all because you have a relationship
Speaker 1: with them that is rooted in that feedback rhythm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a great woman to hack. And
Speaker 2: I know I kind of alluded to this earlier, but
Speaker 2: that approach around understanding and again it's one thing if
Speaker 2: Chris is a high performing employee and is showing that
Speaker 2: through behaviors and outcomes over a consistent amount of time.
Speaker 2: Like my approach is exactly what you kind of talked about,
Speaker 2: which is like number one, let's recognize the work. Number two,
Speaker 2: what can I learn as a leader in this space?
Speaker 2: What are things that I can see that I can
Speaker 2: figure out and maybe maybe I.
Speaker 1: Know what they are.
Speaker 2: Maybe I helped to develop Chris. Maybe Chris has taken
Speaker 2: some of the things that I've taught him and he's
Speaker 2: figured out ways to make his own. But it's important
Speaker 2: the number one I recognize it. Number two that I'm
Speaker 2: curious about what's going on and what am I seeing here,
Speaker 2: and that's going to allow me to have a great
Speaker 2: conversation where I'm sure I will discover an opportunity or
Speaker 2: something that we can talk through or things that we
Speaker 2: can ideate on together that may be helpful in refining.
Speaker 2: And again, we tend to think of, you know, criticism
Speaker 2: and just kind of like coaching in this like extremism
Speaker 2: aspect of like, well, if I'm going to be critical
Speaker 2: or give constructive feedback, it's like because it's just it's
Speaker 2: a horrible thing that needs to be addressed. No, constructive
Speaker 2: feedback can be small things of refinements. Constructive feedback can
Speaker 2: be small like different approaches of ways of working that
Speaker 2: are not trying to like close the gap between being
Speaker 2: a massive underperformer to them being great, Like like it's
Speaker 2: it's just intentional dialogue and time to help Chris get better. Now,
Speaker 2: if Chris is an underperformer, that conversation may look a
Speaker 2: little bit different. I might lead more with curiosity I'm
Speaker 2: bringing to lead more with Hey, let's review this together.
Speaker 2: What do you see? What do I see? What are
Speaker 2: some things here? You know, where are things like? Maybe
Speaker 2: maybe we can we can you know, go back and
Speaker 2: forth a little bit. I can, I can roll model
Speaker 2: this for you, right, Let me try and then you
Speaker 2: tell me how I did.
Speaker 1: What did you see?
Speaker 2: Differently? What are you learning like? It's going to be
Speaker 2: a different approach. And I think that's the main kind
Speaker 2: of element of this whole thing when it comes to
Speaker 2: understanding that number one, it has to happen for everyone,
Speaker 2: but number two, you do have to adjust the approach
Speaker 2: based upon who you have, you know, across the table
Speaker 2: from you, or you know, in the office with you,
Speaker 2: or on the floor with you.
Speaker 1: The goal here, remember, is to have a relationship with
Speaker 1: a person like that. That's as simple as I can
Speaker 1: make it. If you have a relationship with a person
Speaker 1: that is rooted in a rhythm, that where the conversations
Speaker 1: you have are productive and there's a good relationship there,
Speaker 1: then when the feedback is needed, you don't think to
Speaker 1: yourself as a leader, maybe I'll let this one go.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll i'll you know, I don't want to I
Speaker 1: don't want to, you know, ruffle the feathers a little bit. Oh,
Speaker 1: Lorenzo's a high performer. We're not gonna we won't saying
Speaker 1: anything this time. All of that is all those feelings
Speaker 1: are caused by a general sense that you don't have
Speaker 1: a relationship with the person that is rooted in real
Speaker 1: conversations that are honest and where you can give bi
Speaker 1: directional feedback. If you don't feel that, that's where you
Speaker 1: get those situations where the leader doesn't want to give
Speaker 1: the feedback to the high performing individual. If you have
Speaker 1: that relationship already, it's not even a thought. You just
Speaker 1: go have the conversation. And so the solve here, the
Speaker 1: way to do this is all about prep work and
Speaker 1: not there's no there's no magic bullet to you know,
Speaker 1: help you deliver high performing or feedback to high performers
Speaker 1: when there isn't a relationship already. So if you want
Speaker 1: to solve this problem, you need to go back to
Speaker 1: the drawing board a little bit and begin by building
Speaker 1: that relationship so that you can start delivering feedback in
Speaker 1: a more effective way.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and with that it brings us to the end
Speaker 2: of this episode. This is hacking leadership. I'm Lorenzo and
Speaker 2: I'm Chris and we'll talk to you all next time.