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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Nonprofits the thrice weekly show, where we

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<v Speaker 1>address news and current events through the lens of atheism

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<v Speaker 1>and secular humanism. For our first segment this week, we

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<v Speaker 1>look at a Baptist university that's turning down free money.

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<v Speaker 1>Cynthy MacDonald tell us all about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Scott, I will tell you all about it.

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<v Speaker 2>So Lips is me telling you all about it, and

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<v Speaker 2>also Allan and all of your viewers out there. So

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<v Speaker 2>at Baylor University, a major research opportunity was met, not

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<v Speaker 2>with curiosity, because that's not the word it's curiosity, but

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<v Speaker 2>with cancelation. The school was awarded a six hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>forty three thousand dollars grant to study the experiences of

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<v Speaker 2>the LGBTQ plus people in religious spaces, an initiative that

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<v Speaker 2>would have fostered understanding and perhaps even healing, an initiative

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<v Speaker 2>that could have even brought in all of these things.

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<v Speaker 2>But instead of embracing the chance to explore how faith

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<v Speaker 2>communities can better serve all members, the university returned the

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<v Speaker 2>money after backlash from its conservative religious circles. Ain't that

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<v Speaker 2>about a blip. This was not about theology. It was

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<v Speaker 2>about fear. Fear of honest inquiry, fear of upsetting those

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<v Speaker 2>who see compassion as compromise, and in the process, Baylor

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<v Speaker 2>sent a message loud and clear that appeasing fundamentalism takes

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<v Speaker 2>priority over academic freedom and human dignity. As humanists and skeptics,

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<v Speaker 2>we believe in the power of knowledge, in the value

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<v Speaker 2>of inclusive research, and in the moral imperative to challenge

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<v Speaker 2>systems that harm. So tonight we ask, what does it

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<v Speaker 2>say when a university won't even study inclusion and who

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<v Speaker 2>suffers when facts are silenced to preserve comfort. Let's open

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<v Speaker 2>the conversation. The story is from The Friendly Atheist by

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<v Speaker 2>Hamet Metta, published on July seventeenth, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>Back to you, Scott, absolutely absolutely, Thank you so much, Cynthia. Cynthia,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to direct my first question at you, as

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<v Speaker 1>long as you're already in a talking kind of mood here.

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<v Speaker 1>As an educator, I know that it's really difficult in

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<v Speaker 1>these days for schools to get funding. You know, they

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<v Speaker 1>need funding for all these different programs, and it's not

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<v Speaker 1>easy to come by in many cases. So what could

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<v Speaker 1>be motivating Baylor to refuse grants that they've already won.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Scott, what really stands out to me about

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<v Speaker 2>this story isn't just that Baylor turned down over six

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<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand dollars in funding, is that they rejected the

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to better understand the very people their policies often marginalized.

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<v Speaker 2>So if we can, let's just be clear, I'm getting

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<v Speaker 2>my I'm getting my uh oh, I can't say her name,

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<v Speaker 2>darn it. I was about to say I'm getting my

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<v Speaker 2>jc on but that's cool.

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<v Speaker 3>But let let me be clear.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, this grant wasn't about pushing an agenda. It was

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<v Speaker 2>actually designed to study the real life experiences of LGBTQ

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<v Speaker 2>plus individuals in religious spaces, many whom are students, their alumni,

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<v Speaker 2>their staff, and they all are at Baylor. You cannot

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<v Speaker 2>tell me that there is not one LGBTQ plus student

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<v Speaker 2>and or professor, teacher, or teachers assistant that does not

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<v Speaker 2>attend that university. And you know, as I was mentioning

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<v Speaker 2>in my introduction about that loud and clear message, what

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<v Speaker 2>the university response was says a lot. We don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to know that is what they're saying, or maybe more accurately,

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<v Speaker 2>we are afraid to find out what we'll find, because

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<v Speaker 2>if you let the data speak, you might have to

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<v Speaker 2>reckon with some uncomfortable.

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<v Speaker 1>Truths totally like reality in other words, part like you're

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<v Speaker 1>saying that they're not trying to push an agenda, but

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<v Speaker 1>I think they are.

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<v Speaker 4>They're trying to push the agenda of humanizing marginalized people,

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<v Speaker 4>and that is an uncomfortable position for a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>and we can't do.

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<v Speaker 2>That, Stephen oh dare no, no, no, Well, and when

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<v Speaker 2>I meant about an agenda, you know how we are

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<v Speaker 2>hearing a lot from the right that you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>LGBTQ plus community is pushing an agenda when we are

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<v Speaker 2>seeing curriculums that actually talk about LGBTQ plus history, when

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking about actually introducing literature written and buy people

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<v Speaker 2>from the queer community. Where we're even talking about naming

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<v Speaker 2>a person that ran for Congress whose name was going

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<v Speaker 2>to be on a ship, but his name is taken

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<v Speaker 2>off of the ship so it can be actually put

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<v Speaker 2>back with the Confederate officer.

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<v Speaker 5>Those things, you know, and it's like what kills me

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<v Speaker 5>if I could just have a little room, is that

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<v Speaker 5>when we are highlighting people or highlighting issues from marginalized communities.

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<v Speaker 2>Just because we're actually saying this thing exists. They say, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>now that you're talking about it, it's an agenda.

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<v Speaker 1>Right right right, we can't have that. We can't have that.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's jump over to Stephen real quick here. So, I,

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<v Speaker 1>as I was mentioning Cynthia, I'm just kind of I'm

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<v Speaker 1>kind of baffled at this whole thing. I just can't

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<v Speaker 1>really get my I mean, I understand the idea that

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<v Speaker 1>they don't want to have to deal with certain realities

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<v Speaker 1>that will that will follow from accepting this money, but really,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, come on, what I mean, what's your take

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<v Speaker 1>on all this?

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<v Speaker 4>Like, like, I was only at Bible College for seven years,

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<v Speaker 4>so I'm not an expert on what student life in

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<v Speaker 4>that setting is. This is not surprising, and like obviously

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<v Speaker 4>my my my time was in a small, conservative, Evangelical

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<v Speaker 4>Mennonite Bible college, So that isn't you know, uh, you

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<v Speaker 4>know that doesn't you know? It's not a carbon copy

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<v Speaker 4>onto what these bigger institutions are. But this does not

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<v Speaker 4>this this is all a part of the playbook in

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<v Speaker 4>my mind, you know, you know, a faith institute has

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<v Speaker 4>an end in mind it already and especially ones that

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<v Speaker 4>are Christian in nature, like they already have to have

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<v Speaker 4>certain end pieces in mind and the not to not

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<v Speaker 4>to speak too broadly here, but they need to find

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<v Speaker 4>their way to that will lead to that end. Like

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<v Speaker 4>in the end, the Bible has to be worthwhile, there

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<v Speaker 4>has to be weight behind it, even if it's not

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<v Speaker 4>literally true. And I believe a place like Baylor would

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<v Speaker 4>believe if they are Baptist in their pedagogy, then they

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<v Speaker 4>have to believe that the Bible is true and it

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<v Speaker 4>is important and Jesus and God da da da da

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<v Speaker 4>da and anything that isn't going to support that is

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<v Speaker 4>antithetical to who they are in their identity. Any school

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<v Speaker 4>that offers apologetics is already tipping its hand because apologetics

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<v Speaker 4>says that, Okay, this is what we need to protect,

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<v Speaker 4>and we are going to teach you. We're going to

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<v Speaker 4>train you on how to protect that, not how to

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<v Speaker 4>interrogate it, not to how to understand it better or

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<v Speaker 4>how to synthesize it into our modern world. It's about

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<v Speaker 4>protecting what's already established.

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<v Speaker 3>For sure for sure. Yeah, yeah, thanks for that.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's jump back to Cynthia now, where so we're all

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<v Speaker 1>surprised slash not surprised, right, you know, it's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>it's one of those things that you you you hope

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<v Speaker 1>you're imagining, but you're seeing it happen in front of

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<v Speaker 1>you in real time. But let's talk some brass tacks here.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's look at where the rubber meets the road. What

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<v Speaker 1>is the real effect here for the loss of the

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's not just money that they're losing here.

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<v Speaker 1>They're losing the entire research project that the money was supporting.

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<v Speaker 1>So I mean, what really is is being set aside here?

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<v Speaker 2>So I know that Baylor put back the money, right,

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<v Speaker 2>they gave back to six hundred and forty three million dollars.

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<v Speaker 3>On thousand, thousand, thousand.

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<v Speaker 2>I said that is it close to ten o'clock yet?

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<v Speaker 1>Now a thousand with a thuughhh.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes yes, Lika, thank you, teacher Scott, my pleasure. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>no problem, okay, So they okay, so they gave back

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<v Speaker 2>the money. But can we really talk about who pays

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<v Speaker 2>the price?

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<v Speaker 6>Can we?

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<v Speaker 2>Can we really? You know, especially since we're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>where the rubber meets the road, it's not the administrators,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not the trustees. It's actually the queer students. Wondering

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<v Speaker 2>if they actually belong. Yeah, it's the teenager sitting in

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<v Speaker 2>the chapel feeling unseen, ill assisted, and unworthy. It is

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<v Speaker 2>the person of faith who is also LGBTQ plus trying

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<v Speaker 2>to reconcile both parts of who they are while their

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<v Speaker 2>school tells them one must be denied or hitden.

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<v Speaker 3>That's painful to hear. That's painful to hear.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's it's hard to imagine students being well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's if they're college that they're going to, they've been

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<v Speaker 1>they've committed a portion of their life to go there,

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<v Speaker 1>not to mention a portion of their money right at,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of dough going into it there.

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<v Speaker 3>And then for the.

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<v Speaker 1>For the college to not only say we don't know you,

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<v Speaker 1>but saying we don't want to know you. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>that's that's kind of the message that's happening here. And

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<v Speaker 1>it's really tragic. I mean, they're really they're pissing on

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<v Speaker 1>people basically, and and it's it's really really really frustrating, Steven.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, as a member of the LGBTQ community yourself,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you see this affecting that community at large,

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<v Speaker 1>or you know, even on the small scale too. Is

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<v Speaker 1>there a silver lining to be had here at all?

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<v Speaker 1>Or I mean is this all just awful horrible things?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, like it's all par for the course. Like like

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<v Speaker 4>Baylor University, they what is it that they make you

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<v Speaker 4>sign a statement of faith saying that you will not

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<v Speaker 4>participate in homosexual YadA YadA yadas. But it doesn't say

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<v Speaker 4>anything about you know, the celibate queer person you know,

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<v Speaker 4>so long that you know, their statement of faith doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>cover that. But those students still aren't protected from harassment,

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<v Speaker 4>right if you if you are harassed for being queer,

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<v Speaker 4>then the school is okay with that. So to answer

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<v Speaker 4>your question, yeah, Like in the long run, I think

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<v Speaker 4>this is a good thing. Like what, I'm so curious

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<v Speaker 4>what we're what what exactly what we do with the

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<v Speaker 4>findings that they found? Could we actually trust what they

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<v Speaker 4>were discovering? I think it'd be highly sus already. And honestly, like,

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<v Speaker 4>in the short run, yes, this will fuel anti queer

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<v Speaker 4>talking points for a long time, there's nothing new about that.

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<v Speaker 4>But in fifty, in one hundred years, it'll be become

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<v Speaker 4>increasingly obvious that Baylor is just bending over for Christian authoritarianism. Uh,

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<v Speaker 4>and like and take that for what it is, like my, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>my heart breaks for the students who are so committed

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<v Speaker 4>to their faith and they are looking for Baylor to

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<v Speaker 4>help them, you know, find their place in the world,

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<v Speaker 4>and for Baylor to be slapping them upside the head

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<v Speaker 4>with this by you know, not accepting them. That does suck.

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<v Speaker 4>And that is you know, that's that's the pudding. That

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<v Speaker 4>is what they're that's what they're about. And so like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>it is awful. Why are you giving them your money?

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<v Speaker 1>Like that's a good question, that's a good question, and

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<v Speaker 1>I maybe this can you know, put a fine point

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<v Speaker 1>on that, you know, and then and kind of really

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<v Speaker 1>show them, Okay, here's what you're getting into. Here's what

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<v Speaker 1>here's the direction that you're going. Here's the path you're taking.

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<v Speaker 1>Why you know, why why why do that? There's so

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<v Speaker 1>many other options available to you. Let's I want to

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<v Speaker 1>jump back over to Cynthia for a little bit here. Uh.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Baylor, of course is a private college.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, and it's not under any requirement to take money

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<v Speaker 1>from the government or from any or you know of

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<v Speaker 1>these grant uh grant granting organizations. But let's let's compare

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<v Speaker 1>this with the idea of school of vouchers, which many people,

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<v Speaker 1>myself included, believe to be a way of funneling public

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<v Speaker 1>funds into private religious schools. So, in some twisted way,

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<v Speaker 1>could this be seen as a virtue.

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<v Speaker 3>On the part of Baylor.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, they aren't putting their money where their mouth is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, to borrow a phrase there, They're refusing the

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<v Speaker 1>money rather than accepting the money and then not living

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<v Speaker 1>up to the expectations on the other end, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>is this a could this be seen as a virtuous

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<v Speaker 1>act by Baylor University?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the reason why they gave back the money is

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<v Speaker 2>because they were getting smoke from the fundamentalist community around them.

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<v Speaker 7>Okay, you know, I would think about how we talked

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<v Speaker 7>about school voucher systems and basically how they suck and

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<v Speaker 7>how a lot of them are races in nature. Because

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<v Speaker 7>the reason why we even had more people going into homeschooling,

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<v Speaker 7>especially like around the late sixties early seventies, is because

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<v Speaker 7>of well one a reaction to Brown versus the Board

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<v Speaker 7>of Education where they were integrating schools, and then the

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<v Speaker 7>early seventies is when you saw schools being forced to

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<v Speaker 7>integrate students by busting them into.

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<v Speaker 2>Other urban communities. So we already know that this is

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<v Speaker 2>a bus policy that the religious right want to push

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<v Speaker 2>is school vouchers so that people can be able to

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<v Speaker 2>get government assistance in order for them to send their

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<v Speaker 2>kids to private schools. And the majority of private schools

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<v Speaker 2>in the United States happen to be Christian.

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<v Speaker 1>So so, so do you think they're Do you think

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<v Speaker 1>they're you know, living what they're saying, or do you

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<v Speaker 1>think they're Do you think this was a lost opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>or both?

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<v Speaker 3>I suppose it could be, and it's both.

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<v Speaker 2>In my opinion, I believe that it's both because even

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<v Speaker 2>though I may not understand, and I think that I

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<v Speaker 2>would be very confident to say that all of us

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<v Speaker 2>on this panel may not quite understand why an lgbt

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<v Speaker 2>Q person would even approach, let alone attend a school

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<v Speaker 2>like Baylor or Die.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I can understand people who are closeted, Okay, who

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<v Speaker 2>maybe feeling the need to fight against their nature.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's the thing, right, I suppose there could be

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<v Speaker 1>some parental pressure and pure pressure all that all that.

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<v Speaker 6>Excuse me, I'll do apologize so I can see this,

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<v Speaker 6>but in your own mind making a decision to go

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<v Speaker 6>to a university that makes you not only sign these

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<v Speaker 6>whole things that I.

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<v Speaker 2>Will not do this, I will not do that. I

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<v Speaker 2>will live my life X, Y and Z and and

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<v Speaker 2>and everything about you and your inside of you is

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<v Speaker 2>screaming this is not me, but you do it anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't understand that. But then again, I'm no longer eighteen.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm I'm a woman of a certain age, and I'm far,

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<v Speaker 2>far far from eighteen, right, So I guess like, depending

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<v Speaker 2>on the age of the time, would definitely be the

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<v Speaker 2>thing that would inform my decisions. Regardless of that these

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<v Speaker 2>people are in the university, they and I know that

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<v Speaker 2>they have a community of people who happen to be queer,

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<v Speaker 2>who were raised Christian, who heard all the things, and

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<v Speaker 2>we do know that there are institutions, religious institutions, faith

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<v Speaker 2>based institutions that actually affirm queer people. So actually saying, well, ooh,

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<v Speaker 2>how many people happen to be queerness on our campus,

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<v Speaker 2>how many of them may feel othered bullied because they

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<v Speaker 2>may be out queer on our campus, knowing that the

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<v Speaker 2>as you I'm going to start saying this word more often.

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<v Speaker 2>Stephen pedagogy is going against your better nature as who

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<v Speaker 2>you are, because the Bible says so that would have

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<v Speaker 2>been worth studying. But I have to agree with you, Steven,

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<v Speaker 2>then maybe this is a good thing only because I

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<v Speaker 2>don't feel that Baylor in of itself, with its ideology,

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<v Speaker 2>would be objective when they do to study, if anything,

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<v Speaker 2>they would have to hire outside researchers in order for

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<v Speaker 2>them to get data that was the closest thing to

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<v Speaker 2>fact is possible.

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<v Speaker 4>That's insisting probably straight researchers. And what's what I find

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<v Speaker 4>interesting My understanding is that this money was coming from

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<v Speaker 4>a private foundation. So this is money that's been you know,

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<v Speaker 4>earmarked for you know, supporting things. And the board according

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<v Speaker 4>to my what I read, that the board of that

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<v Speaker 4>foundation are all alumni of Baylor. So the idea that

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<v Speaker 4>we graduated from here and we want to use this money,

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<v Speaker 4>we want to gift this money for you to understand

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<v Speaker 4>queer Christians better. Just like Wolf, that's m that is

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<v Speaker 4>really bowing to uh. And in this case, it isn't

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<v Speaker 4>even like bowing to money. It's well, I guess like

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<v Speaker 4>conservative donors. I guess, yeah, like bowing to conservative donors

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<v Speaker 4>over their own alumni.

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<v Speaker 1>They didn't say that specifically in the in the article,

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<v Speaker 1>but they kind of hinted at it there that the

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't just people getting angry on Twitter, right, These

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<v Speaker 1>were people that donate significant amounts of money to Baylor

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<v Speaker 1>every year, and so I think there was I think

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<v Speaker 1>it was a question of who, you know, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to lose this amount of money, but we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>maintain larger donations after that.

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<v Speaker 8>At least that's the impression I got. Let me just

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<v Speaker 8>do a quick bit of research. Oh yeah, it was

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<v Speaker 8>straight white guys. They weren't happy about it. So I

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<v Speaker 8>never never even occurred to me to think about.

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<v Speaker 2>It's always straight white guys.

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<v Speaker 3>Speaking of straight white guys.

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<v Speaker 1>We're running a little long time here, But Stephen, I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to ask you a question here, so from I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to read a little quote here from the article,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is him at meta saying this. Importantly, nothing

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<v Speaker 1>about the study would have changed the underlying beliefs among

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<v Speaker 1>conservative Christians that same sex relationships are sinful, that marriage

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<v Speaker 1>equality must be opposed at all costs, that homosexuality ex

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<v Speaker 1>self is a sin, that trans people are just lying

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<v Speaker 1>to themselves, et cetera. And then he puts in parentheses,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone could have saved a lot of money just by

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<v Speaker 1>urging those churches to not be so damn bigoted. And

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<v Speaker 1>I want to focus on that last word. They're bigoted. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we use that word a lot on this show. We

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<v Speaker 1>talk a lot about bigotry in many different varieties and flavors.

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<v Speaker 3>Where do you draw the line.

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<v Speaker 1>Between an organization pursuing and supporting their religious beliefs and

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<v Speaker 1>then saying no, no, that is now cross the line

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<v Speaker 1>into bigotry where we know where what's the difference there?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I think this word comes

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<v Speaker 4>up so frequently in conversations that deal with especially like

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<v Speaker 4>in the intersect of closed mindedness and oppression. Like if

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<v Speaker 4>minority is closed minded about you know, the the ruling

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<v Speaker 4>class above them, it's hard to you know, label that

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<v Speaker 4>as big did because they are already being punched down,

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<v Speaker 4>like what are they going to do about it? But

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<v Speaker 4>when it's when it's the system that is empowered that

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<v Speaker 4>is closed minded and is like closed off to the

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<v Speaker 4>possibility of giving the people that they're oppressing extra latitude

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<v Speaker 4>and you know, increasing their humanity, I think that's where

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<v Speaker 4>that word should be coming into play, which is certainly

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<v Speaker 4>a case in point here. So, yeah, like when when

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<v Speaker 4>people in power refuse to consider that they're that can,

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<v Speaker 4>refuse to evolve, refuse to grow, that's when I think

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<v Speaker 4>that's when that word comes into play.

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<v Speaker 1>Cynthia, what's what are your last thoughts on here? Do

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<v Speaker 1>you do you agree with the Steven's take on that

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<v Speaker 1>on that word bigotry?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>All right, all right, very uh, very well said. And

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<v Speaker 1>if you appreciate, uh, Cynthia McDonald's conciseness, uh, you can

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<v Speaker 1>always find her more here on the nonprofit.

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<v Speaker 4>So just