Speaker 1: You're listening to an airwave media podcast, Monster House.
Speaker 2: Presents Monster Talks, a proud member of the Airwave Media
Speaker 2: Podcast Network, home of such shows as the Daily Meditation podcast.
Speaker 2: I Know what scares you and when things go wrong.
Speaker 2: If you'd like to advertise on the show, contact sales
Speaker 2: at advertisedcast dot com. I find burial practices fascinating. If
Speaker 2: you haven't traveled the world or haven't read about them,
Speaker 2: you might be tempted to think that they're all about
Speaker 2: the same, but no. From vaults and mausoleums to urns,
Speaker 2: to sky burials to tombs, the number of ways in
Speaker 2: which humans have chosen to preserve the memory of the
Speaker 2: dead as a phnopoly of approaches, sometimes focused on remembering
Speaker 2: the individual is a departed loved one. In other times
Speaker 2: and places, on preservation of the corpse is almost a
Speaker 2: half deity to be supplicated. Some cultures have duties that
Speaker 2: are due the dead, and some religions hold that the
Speaker 2: dead are just empty containers and less important than the
Speaker 2: souls that once inhabited them. But there is an almost
Speaker 2: universal cultural fear around the places where we store the
Speaker 2: remains of our dead. You are listening to Monster talk
Speaker 2: the Science show about monsters, which I'm betting means you're
Speaker 2: not one of the normal ones. I bet a good
Speaker 2: chunk of our listeners, like your hosts, not only aren't
Speaker 2: afraid of graveyards, but find them fascinating places to visit
Speaker 2: by day and by night. Some cemeteries, like Highgate in
Speaker 2: London are pair loches in Paris are shaded cities of
Speaker 2: the dead, with their own streets and a distinct atmosphere
Speaker 2: of decaying beauty. These places have as many stories as
Speaker 2: they have bones. But sometimes in our travels we find small,
Speaker 2: neglected cemeteries with rusted gates and tall weeds where flowers
Speaker 2: might adorn a more frequently visited plot, and these places
Speaker 2: also collect stories and Out on the high plains of Colorado,
Speaker 2: one such place as Silver Cliff Cemetery. Now they say
Speaker 2: that people have been seeing ghost lights there since the
Speaker 2: silver rush of the eighteen eighties. They say, even on
Speaker 2: a cloudy night, you could see the blue flames hopping
Speaker 2: around between the old monuments. It's too good of a
Speaker 2: story to not have a look, right. Well, my co
Speaker 2: host Karen and her husband Matt went to have a look.
Speaker 2: You might be surprised to hear that, even though they're
Speaker 2: very skeptical people, they saw them too.
Speaker 3: It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.
Speaker 4: A giant, hairy creature, part Ape, part Matt in Larkness,
Speaker 4: a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake and the
Speaker 4: Highlands of scott It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster.
Speaker 4: Monster t.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
Speaker 2: Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner. We're gonna hop right
Speaker 2: into our chat with Karen and regular guest Matt Baxter.
Speaker 2: But I wanted to front load by saying Karen has
Speaker 2: a new book out. I've put a link to it
Speaker 2: in the show notes. It's all about the history of
Speaker 2: the word bitch, and looks to be the sort of
Speaker 2: fun book that's both a fascinating history of a word,
Speaker 2: a topic that's near and dear to word lovers, and
Speaker 2: also an amusingly rude kind of title that makes for
Speaker 2: a fun read in public places. So check the show
Speaker 2: notes for a linked to Bitch, and also to a
Speaker 2: book where some of Tonight's research is explain in detail.
Speaker 2: One of my favorite books Karen's written, and that is
Speaker 2: haunting America. I think you'll enjoy both of those. Monstertle, Hey, Matt, Hey, Karen,
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Monster Talk. Is another week, another exciting
Speaker 2: talk about strange and paranormal and paranormal adjacent, monster adjacent
Speaker 2: and monsters. Hey, I was looking for you for what
Speaker 2: we've been talking about this week, and I realized somehow,
Speaker 2: and I don't know how we did this. We seem
Speaker 2: to have talked about this investigation you guys did on
Speaker 2: this cemetery several times on YouTube, but I don't think
Speaker 2: we've actually done like a thorough episode about your investigation.
Speaker 2: And this is work that you did which showed up
Speaker 2: been haunting America and it's really interesting. It has weird
Speaker 2: parallels to one of my first cases I ever did
Speaker 2: with other people and skepticism and so like, this is great.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the Silver Cliff Cemetery in your investigation,
Speaker 2: and I hope if you don't mind, could we start
Speaker 2: out with sort of talking about why it's spooky, what's
Speaker 2: the legend, like, what is this, where is it and
Speaker 2: what's it all about.
Speaker 5: There's a lot to unpack here and this is a story.
Speaker 5: It's really one of those ones that keeps coming up
Speaker 5: again and again. Just when you think, Okay, well we
Speaker 5: have the answer to this, we've debunked this, we've got
Speaker 5: the solution to the claims, it just seems to resurface,
Speaker 5: and it's almost as though that information, the truth is
Speaker 5: now there. So Silvercliff Cemetery. So we're in Colorado and
Speaker 5: Matt and I have continued to hear about this little cemetery.
Speaker 5: It's really out in the middle of nowhere, I guess
Speaker 5: it's where is it, Matt? Probably about three hours drive
Speaker 5: from Denver.
Speaker 3: Yeah, approximately, I would say.
Speaker 5: So. It's right next to this town called Westcliffe, and
Speaker 5: it's purported to have the countries most haunted, if not
Speaker 5: the world's most haunted cemetery. So when I think about cemeteries,
Speaker 5: I tend to think about those big ones like maybe
Speaker 5: Saint Louis Cemetery in New Orleans, the one that Marie
Speaker 5: Leveaux would frequent I think about places like Resurrection Cemetery
Speaker 5: in Chicago as well, and a Hollywood Cemetery in LA
Speaker 5: with the ghosts of celebrities and things like that. So
Speaker 5: I was a little mystified as to why this place
Speaker 5: had this reputation for being so haunted, and so Matt
Speaker 5: and I became very interested in this topic and really
Speaker 5: did an investigation that took quite some time. This goes
Speaker 5: back ten eleven years now, and we went to this
Speaker 5: place and we went in different climates, different seasons as well,
Speaker 5: so that we could really try to figure out what
Speaker 5: was going on there. And ultimately the answer, the solution
Speaker 5: was right in front of us. But it was an
Speaker 5: interesting tale just to get to that point. So, Matt,
Speaker 5: do you want to begin by telling everyone a little
Speaker 5: bit a bit about the stories that have taken place
Speaker 5: surreting cemetery.
Speaker 3: Well, like Karen said, it's near a town called Westcliffe,
Speaker 3: which actually is a sister town to a town called Silvercliff.
Speaker 3: They're right next to each other, they're practically the same town.
Speaker 3: But the reason one is called Silvercliff is because there
Speaker 3: was an amazing silver mining rush there back in the
Speaker 3: late eighteen hundreds and that's when supposedly the legend started,
Speaker 3: when people started getting buried in the cemetery around that
Speaker 3: time in the eighteen eighties, that there were these strange
Speaker 3: sort of floating blue lights and they thought that they
Speaker 3: were like lanterns, you know, from inside the mines that
Speaker 3: someone was carrying, but it became very creepy, and it's like,
Speaker 3: you know, you you've kind of got these these old
Speaker 3: tales of this this, these are these lights out out
Speaker 3: in the cemetery. And then you know, we here in
Speaker 3: this day and age, we hear that National Geographic actually
Speaker 3: went out and did an investigation out there and.
Speaker 6: They saw them.
Speaker 3: They in their investigation, they saw the lights. They proved
Speaker 3: that they were there, and you know it's.
Speaker 6: In an.
Speaker 3: Issue of National Geographic August nineteen sixty nine. So how
Speaker 3: can you argue with that? I mean, that's some that's
Speaker 3: a great, great place to start, you know with with oh,
Speaker 3: this must be real. Just happens to turn out that,
Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't an investigation.
Speaker 5: The stories that are coming out of the cemetery really
Speaker 5: change over the years. So, as Matt said, originally you've
Speaker 5: got the idea of this a bright light, maybe a
Speaker 5: blue light typically or a white light, through to multi
Speaker 5: colored lights, red lights and green lights, and lights that
Speaker 5: bounce around the cemetery. A lot of stories seem to
Speaker 5: resemble tales of will of the wisps and spoop lights.
Speaker 5: So you really have a lot of folklore that's intersecting
Speaker 5: with this story and feeding into it, and as Matt said,
Speaker 5: claims that maybe these lights came from miners, or there
Speaker 5: was a young girl who was buried in the cemetery
Speaker 5: and the lights are coming from her somehow. So all
Speaker 5: of these different stories, but miners, miners, both both kind
Speaker 5: and ultimately you were told, well, this has been researched,
Speaker 5: This has been investigated by none other than National Geographics.
Speaker 5: So obviously this is factual. This is true. Something strange
Speaker 5: is going on here. So what's interesting is that the
Speaker 5: New York Times had actually covered the case a few
Speaker 5: years before National Geographic. People do talk about that as well.
Speaker 5: There's just a little article and I've got a clipping
Speaker 5: that I'll read out from the New York Times. The
Speaker 5: legends say that the dancing lights were first seen in
Speaker 5: the pre dawn hours of a bitter winter day in
Speaker 5: eighteen eighty A small group of miners were returning to
Speaker 5: Silver Cliff after a riproaring party in the nearby mining
Speaker 5: town of Rosita. They were still a bit unsteady of
Speaker 5: foot after the festivities and were laughing as they recalled
Speaker 5: the raucous highlights of the dance hall social Their route
Speaker 5: back to Silvercliff, took them past the old cemetery, and here,
Speaker 5: as they passed the place, one of the miners stopped,
Speaker 5: grasped the arm of a companion and pointed into the
Speaker 5: burial ground. They're flickering on the carved surface for freshly
Speaker 5: raised tombstone was a blue flame. The miners stared with
Speaker 5: fascination for a while, a very short while, and with
Speaker 5: less stagger and more speed, headed quickly for nearby Silver Cliff. So, yeah,
Speaker 5: we have that story, and then that's followed by the
Speaker 5: story of National Geographics. So you have this idea of
Speaker 5: it being I don't know, maybe a long form piece
Speaker 5: or a research piece, and the National Geographic don't really
Speaker 5: do those kinds of scholarly investigations. But the information on
Speaker 5: silver Cliff is a lot shorter than we're led to believe,
Speaker 5: and it's just this little PostScript. Really, So do you.
Speaker 2: Remember when we were talking about the most haunted cities
Speaker 2: and there was one that was listed in the Guinness
Speaker 2: Booker World Records and we looked and it was just
Speaker 2: like a little like a little paragraph blurb thing was
Speaker 2: it was completely not well this is yeah, yeah, two
Speaker 2: paragraph but still I just reminded me.
Speaker 5: Hardly some kind of investigation or academic paper or anything
Speaker 5: like that. Just a footnote really, in an article called
Speaker 5: Colorado the Rockies Pot of Gold by Edward Lyneham in
Speaker 5: the August nineteen sixty nine. As Matt said, so I'll
Speaker 5: read the little section because it's not that long. Eerie
Speaker 5: lights away to explanation. I recall quite vividly the last
Speaker 5: such town I visited before leaving Colorado, a place called
Speaker 5: Silver Cliff in the Wet Mountain valley west of Pueblo.
Speaker 5: Today it counts about one hundred and ten year round residents,
Speaker 5: where once five thousand lived. Be sure to get thereafter dark.
Speaker 5: A fellow camper from Kansas had told me, and drive
Speaker 5: out to the old cemetery, you'll see something mighty strange.
Speaker 5: We'd bounced about a mile out of Silver Cliff across
Speaker 5: Pitch Black Prairie when Bill Klein, who runs the local campground,
Speaker 5: told me to pull up and switch my headlights off.
Speaker 5: Do you believe it? I asked him about the lights
Speaker 5: in the graveyard. I've seen plenty of them. This is
Speaker 5: a good night for them. Overcast, no mood. We climbed
Speaker 5: out beside the old burying ground, and for long minutes
Speaker 5: I strained to see something anything. Slowly vague outlines of
Speaker 5: grave markers emerged in ragged rose. There. Bill's voice was quiet,
Speaker 5: almost a whisper, And over there I saw them, too,
Speaker 5: dim round spots of blue white light glowed ethereally among
Speaker 5: the graves. I found another and stepped forward for a
Speaker 5: better look. They vanished. For fifteen minutes, we walked about
Speaker 5: the place, pursuing one will of the wisp, then another.
Speaker 5: I aimed my flashlight at one eerie glow and switched
Speaker 5: it on. It revealed only a tombstone. Again, that's not
Speaker 5: any kind of in depth investigation. It's just a footnote
Speaker 5: and really just recounting the folklore. And so I think
Speaker 5: that it kind of gives us a hint at what's
Speaker 5: going on as well. They're talking about these lights in
Speaker 5: the cemetery, and what happens right at the end the
Speaker 5: fellow aims is flashlight at one of these glows, and
Speaker 5: there's a tombstone. So I think if we want to
Speaker 5: talk about spoilers, that really spoils what's going on when.
Speaker 2: Is quite a spoiler and anchored right there at such
Speaker 2: an early date. Yeah, Yeah, exactly it is, and.
Speaker 5: Even though they say eerie lights a weight explanation. So
Speaker 5: then we go back to a skeptical inquirer piece and
Speaker 5: I don't have it handy, but I think it goes
Speaker 5: back to maybe the nineteen eighties or nineteen nineties, and
Speaker 5: the fellow who writes the article does come up with
Speaker 5: the solution for what's going on here, that it's reflections
Speaker 5: of lights on tombstones. But again, the source of what's
Speaker 5: going on is right in front of us. Even though
Speaker 5: so many articles have come out, no one's been able
Speaker 5: to figure out what exactly was going on on. Well,
Speaker 5: they figured out what's going on, but they haven't found
Speaker 5: out that the source tells us, you know, what was
Speaker 5: really happening. But you've got other scientific theories out there too, Matt.
Speaker 5: Do you want to talk a little bit to some of.
Speaker 3: Those, like.
Speaker 5: Fireflies and phosphorescence.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's lots of different theories and and
Speaker 3: and you know scientific things that could be happening, And
Speaker 3: there's there's lots of reasons that.
Speaker 6: You could see something.
Speaker 3: Phosphorescent out there, such as decaying wood sometimes can become fastphorescent.
Speaker 5: From all crosses.
Speaker 3: Fox fire, and so you know, there's lots of different possibilities,
Speaker 3: none of them I think would be consistent.
Speaker 2: Well, there you go. But maybe it doesn't need.
Speaker 6: To be right. Maybe maybe it doesn't.
Speaker 3: You only need one person, one thing at one time
Speaker 3: for it to be all.
Speaker 5: Even with the explanation that we have though, it could
Speaker 5: truly be different people seeing different things. So even though
Speaker 5: we know what happened, it's possible that at other times,
Speaker 5: other people saw different things. That's a really good point.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, you know.
Speaker 3: And the thing is, you know, Karen and I we
Speaker 3: did go out there three different times and just to
Speaker 3: try to really figure out what people were seeing.
Speaker 5: Because we're not well, we're not well as much time
Speaker 5: to it.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6: One time was in the dead of winter and it was.
Speaker 5: Very cold and knowing and I see and yeah, miserable.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it really was.
Speaker 5: We camped out to see the lights.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we saw them.
Speaker 2: Did you did you sleep in the cemetery or outside
Speaker 2: the cemetery? We didn't sleep, Oh, I see, Well that's hot.
Speaker 4: Anyway.
Speaker 2: The point is.
Speaker 3: It was really interesting though, because we were really watching
Speaker 3: for any possibility, and that particular night it wasn't overcast,
Speaker 3: it was just freezing.
Speaker 6: We did see the lights.
Speaker 3: We went up there in the summertime and we did
Speaker 3: catch some overcast, you know, so we couldn't blame the
Speaker 3: stars reflecting off of the headstones and that we still
Speaker 3: could see them.
Speaker 5: There's another theory too that we haven't touched upon. That
Speaker 5: some people will say it's something called prisoner's cinema. So
Speaker 5: people are in solitary confinement or maybe in a cave
Speaker 5: or something like that.
Speaker 2: You're in a very pre deprivation situation.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, it is yet and almost akin to sneezing
Speaker 5: and when you see stars and bright lights. But people
Speaker 5: certainly go out to Silver Cliff to this day trying
Speaker 5: to see something, and at a night where there are
Speaker 5: very few stars or there's no light, you could very
Speaker 5: easily pull yourself into thinking that you're seeing something.
Speaker 3: Well, the key words there is trying to see something.
Speaker 3: So it is pretty easy to see something out there
Speaker 3: if you're really trying, And the sensory deprivation aspect of
Speaker 3: it is can it happen very easily. The whole thing
Speaker 3: about it is when you're having a sensory deprivation sort
Speaker 3: of experience and you're out there in the dark, there's
Speaker 3: a certain look to it, and you can kind of
Speaker 3: tell that, oh, this is not real. This is you know,
Speaker 3: my eyes are playing with me because I'm in the dark.
Speaker 3: But you know, if you're really needing to kind of,
Speaker 3: you know, play into your own bias, then you can
Speaker 3: ignore those obvious things.
Speaker 6: But that's still not it.
Speaker 3: That's still not what was causing the lights that we
Speaker 3: were seeing.
Speaker 6: We were seeing, you.
Speaker 3: Know what those old miners saw, I'm sure, which is
Speaker 3: another interesting thing because we can't find any mention of
Speaker 3: any of these stories about these old miners before this
Speaker 3: little bit of information we found in a history museum
Speaker 3: down in the basement in the microfish area.
Speaker 5: And yeah, that was the interesting thing that you have
Speaker 5: these reports that allegedly go back to the eighteen eighties.
Speaker 5: So we kept hearing about these periods of time that
Speaker 5: we're being mentioned. We'd hear about the eighteen eighties, and
Speaker 5: then we'd read a lot about the nineteen twenties, so
Speaker 5: either miners in the eighteen eighties or miners or party
Speaker 5: goers in the nineteen twenties. But there were also a
Speaker 5: number of specific references too that we'll talk about nineteen
Speaker 5: fifty six. So it was kind of interesting that you
Speaker 5: have these other vague dates eighteen eighties, nineteen twenties, and
Speaker 5: then suddenly people talking about maybe April nineteen fifty six
Speaker 5: or around that timeframe, and that just seems so specific
Speaker 5: that we thought, well, we should really look into this,
Speaker 5: maybe there's something to be found here. So we went
Speaker 5: to History Colorado. I guess what would you call it?
Speaker 5: Matter kind of archives place and a museum.
Speaker 3: It's a museum, and then you know, of course the
Speaker 3: basement is where they have all these things.
Speaker 6: Archive.
Speaker 5: We went there on speaking of cold and snow, it
Speaker 5: was just a very icy, snowy day. I think a
Speaker 5: blizzard was taking It was a blizzard, yes, And so
Speaker 5: we went down there early in the morning and asked
Speaker 5: to use the microfish and went looking for There had
Speaker 5: been a number of newspapers in the area around that time,
Speaker 5: and some of them have just gone bust and over time,
Speaker 5: but one that fit the bill for being published in
Speaker 5: that area and it would have been relevant to that time,
Speaker 5: was a newspaper called the Wet Mountain Tribune. So we
Speaker 5: brought up copies of that for nineteen fifty six and
Speaker 5: for a nineteen fifty five I think fifty six to
Speaker 5: fifty seven, so we could look around that whole time frame,
Speaker 5: and it was so interesting to just go through these
Speaker 5: old newspapers and like, I know, you love this kind
Speaker 5: of thing.
Speaker 2: All I was thinking was I would love to go
Speaker 2: on a micro fishing trip for the weekend.
Speaker 3: That it was so much fun. I have to say
Speaker 3: I was totally role playing when I you know, I'm there,
Speaker 3: you know, being the detective, you know, in this very
Speaker 3: special episode of you know, of an old seventies, you know,
Speaker 3: police show, and I was just having a great time.
Speaker 3: And I looked over at Karen and the expression on
Speaker 3: her face shocked me because as she clearly found.
Speaker 2: It, Yeah, what a great sailing that is.
Speaker 5: Though, Oh really, yeah, we're going through all these old
Speaker 5: trite stories about oh, mister and missus Smith drove through
Speaker 5: the area and this was their second visit, and just
Speaker 5: like these really kind of simple, basic stories about locals
Speaker 5: and visitors to the town, and just the things that
Speaker 5: were interesting at that point seemed quite dull in comparison
Speaker 5: to today. But yeah, we came across the article, so
Speaker 5: it was dated April thirteenth, nineteen fifty six, and I'm hoping, Matt,
Speaker 5: you can read the snippets of this story. It's called
Speaker 5: Silver Cliffs Cemetery ghosts carrying their own lights at night,
Speaker 5: and that headlines everything away.
Speaker 6: I love it is love the headline so clickbait. I
Speaker 6: can't believe that.
Speaker 5: It's nineteen fifty six.
Speaker 6: Yes, it was a.
Speaker 3: Very very early version of clickbait. But yeah, because one
Speaker 3: of the other headlines right next to it is fire
Speaker 3: Threaten's local ranch residents. So I will do my best
Speaker 3: to read this without stumbling too much because the print
Speaker 3: is small.
Speaker 6: But I'll do my best.
Speaker 3: Curious clustertes flock to burial ground a view unusual reflections.
Speaker 3: Traffic to the Silver Cliff Cemetery has increased at least
Speaker 3: one thousand percent during the past week, but there is
Speaker 3: no cause for alarm, or is there at least the
Speaker 3: traffic increases.
Speaker 6: Not due to an increase in.
Speaker 3: The local death rate, although some of those who have
Speaker 3: made the trip to the cemetery have expressed themselves as
Speaker 3: scared to death. It seems that one evening last week,
Speaker 3: some of the younger set of the community were taking
Speaker 3: a nocturnal ride which carried them past the cemetery. As
Speaker 3: they passed the cemetery, screams of terror came from the
Speaker 3: feminine occupants of the car as they beheld numerous eerie
Speaker 3: lights dancing about among the tes. The following day, tales
Speaker 3: of the ghostly lights were spreading rapidly through the community,
Speaker 3: and numerous were the curious ones who trekked to the cemetery.
Speaker 3: During the nights that followed. There were those who trembled
Speaker 3: with the terror as they saw the bluish lights twinkling
Speaker 3: here and there in the burial ground, And many strong
Speaker 3: men refused to leave the sanctuary of their cars, and
Speaker 3: many frightened women would take but one look, I'm going
Speaker 3: to skip down here a little bit so we can
Speaker 3: get to the spoilers. Theories as to the reason for
Speaker 3: the lights. They're still there if you want to see them,
Speaker 3: are numerous. Some advanced the theory that some mischievous youngsters
Speaker 3: had put luminous paint on the tombstones. The close examination
Speaker 3: proved that this was not true. Others said that it
Speaker 3: must be the reflection of the stars on the tombstones.
Speaker 3: But the lights are there on a cloudy night, so
Speaker 3: that theory goes awry. The most logical explanation concurred in
Speaker 3: by many is that the weird lights are reflections of
Speaker 3: the street lights of Westcliff, which cast the bluest tinge
Speaker 3: and would reflect that thus on tombstones of Silvercliff Cemetery,
Speaker 3: even though they are over a mile away. At least,
Speaker 3: the ghostly lights have provided unusual entertainment for many customites. Yeah, so,
Speaker 3: you know in the very first reference to the ghosts
Speaker 3: of Silvercliff Cemetery has the.
Speaker 6: Solution in it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it should have been a one and done,
Speaker 3: you know, should have been one and done.
Speaker 5: Doesn't date back to the nineteen twenties or the eighteen eighties.
Speaker 5: It's nineteen fifty six. It was probably spotted by other
Speaker 5: people before that as well, and you know, independently, but
Speaker 5: certainly the urban legend as it's spread today dates back
Speaker 5: to that article exactly.
Speaker 2: This is classic folklore where that you know, you have
Speaker 2: a modern store in people will invent are or find
Speaker 2: just the most you know, tenuous connections to previous Absolutely, yeah,
Speaker 2: to give it historical anker. But the thing is, I
Speaker 2: think it's worth mentioning how compelling this illusion or is
Speaker 2: not an illusion, this effect of lights reflecting off of
Speaker 2: tombstones at night can be. I mean Again, one of
Speaker 2: my earliest cases working with other people was working with
Speaker 2: Kylie Surgis on a cemetery in Australia and it was
Speaker 2: the exact same thing. Ghost Hunters had gone into the
Speaker 2: cemetery and they'd videotape what looked like weird lights flying
Speaker 2: around and it really was.
Speaker 5: It really did.
Speaker 2: It looked like that. But you know, I slowed it
Speaker 2: down frame by frame and stabilized it, and it became
Speaker 2: as soon as I did that, it was obvious what
Speaker 2: they really were doing. The camera was moving and the
Speaker 2: light from the camera was reflecting off the tombstone and
Speaker 2: it really was quite eerie in what you know, without
Speaker 2: stabilizing and then oh.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's something worth saying. I mean, if our listeners
Speaker 5: happen to be in the area or locals, I mean,
Speaker 5: I'm sure they would know about it then, But if
Speaker 5: you get the opportunity to go and check it out,
Speaker 5: and I'm sure it's a phenomenon that, as you say,
Speaker 5: Blake occurs in lots of other cemeteries, and I think
Speaker 5: just that association with it being a cemetery and full
Speaker 5: of bodies and everything attached with that, all that those associations,
Speaker 5: it's it is just a very eerie experience.
Speaker 2: So is the church there? Is there a church adjacent
Speaker 2: to the cemetery. Is it still an active thing or
Speaker 2: is it just like a historically sort of defunct graveyard.
Speaker 3: There's no church there, but it is an active graveyard still.
Speaker 3: The problem is is there's just not much money coming
Speaker 3: into it, so it's a bit derelict at times. They
Speaker 3: don't have anyone that they can pay to be a
Speaker 3: caretaker out there. So unfortunately it can live up to
Speaker 3: its reputation as being a creepy place. But you know,
Speaker 3: the thing is is you've got this story in the newspaper,
Speaker 3: and you know they're saying that there's all sorts of
Speaker 3: theories that people are arguing about. So when that happens,
Speaker 3: people tend to make up stories just to win arguments.
Speaker 3: And one of those is that a judge had organized it.
Speaker 3: So everybody in both silver Cliff and Westcliffe shut off
Speaker 3: their lights one night for a particular amount of time,
Speaker 3: and they went out and they could still see the
Speaker 3: lights in the cemetery. And I'm thinking, at this time
Speaker 3: in history, how did he organize that?
Speaker 5: Well, I'm wondering how he could have prevented out of
Speaker 5: town is from driving through or with any other sources
Speaker 5: of lights, or.
Speaker 3: They would have had to shut off the city lights,
Speaker 3: you know, all the street lights and everything, and then
Speaker 3: in people's homes, and how did everybody get notified? And
Speaker 3: you know it doesn't make sense. No, Yeah, A great
Speaker 3: way to notify people would have been in the newspaper
Speaker 3: to say, to say, we're organizing this, But there is
Speaker 3: nothing in any of the newspapers.
Speaker 6: So yeah, we don't think this judge, Yeah, this judge
Speaker 6: did not.
Speaker 5: It would have been too difficult to orchestrate. But again
Speaker 5: that's part of the law. And it's just fascinating that,
Speaker 5: you know, I feel like we busted the story open.
Speaker 5: And I was a little irritated to discover a couple
Speaker 5: of years ago that someone that we've worked with in
Speaker 5: the past had basically taken all of our research, all
Speaker 5: of our findings as his own and said that he
Speaker 5: had done the work, he had uncovered all of this,
Speaker 5: which just isn't the case. But regardless, people haven't really
Speaker 5: paid attention to what we've come up with, and the
Speaker 5: debunking the story is still out there. There are tons
Speaker 5: of videos on you Tube of people going out there
Speaker 5: and scaring themselves. But it's really interesting to see how
Speaker 5: the folklore has morphed over the years. So nowadays the
Speaker 5: current stories. People in the past again will talk about
Speaker 5: fairy lights or spook lights, or we'll love the wisp
Speaker 5: or ghosts and other things like that. Well, nowadays they're orbs.
Speaker 2: I thought orbs was going to be one of those
Speaker 2: weird things that rose up and then everybody has sort
Speaker 2: of agreed, no, no, that's just dust, and then they
Speaker 2: go away and they think no. People are like, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: most orbs are just dust, but then some of them
Speaker 2: have faces and those are the real ones, and like, really.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that logic. Yeah, but we've certainly heard
Speaker 5: things like that, haven't we met?
Speaker 6: Oh yeah.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 3: One of the other problems is people get their information
Speaker 3: from seeing orbs on a video where there's actual movement. Now,
Speaker 3: the thing is is these orbs or dust can change
Speaker 3: direction very quickly. Yeah, because of the little micro air
Speaker 3: currents that we create from moving our hand gesturing dust movie. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 3: anything we do. I did an interesting experiment where I
Speaker 3: filled a room with a fog machine fog and then
Speaker 3: videotaped how it would react as I just made tiny
Speaker 3: little movements, you know, and you know, it's quite maddening
Speaker 3: to see all the different you know, swirls and everything
Speaker 3: else that happened. And if you got just one dust
Speaker 3: particle that happens to be reflecting back to the camera,
Speaker 3: it looks like it's just dancing and doing all kinds
Speaker 3: of amazing things that a dust particle could never do.
Speaker 3: So it's gotta be a goot. So, you know, the
Speaker 3: bringing video into the whole orb of argument really dirties
Speaker 3: things up.
Speaker 5: But it's just interesting to see the evolution of the
Speaker 5: story anyway, that it's still around, and it's really surprising
Speaker 5: how many people flock to this cemetery. I mean people
Speaker 5: all around the state, all around the country, all around
Speaker 5: the globe. When we were there, we met people from
Speaker 5: Europe and people from Asia, just people from all different
Speaker 5: kinds of places and all different backgrounds who were drawn
Speaker 5: to the place and the it's just amazing how far
Speaker 5: and wide this story has spread.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but it.
Speaker 2: Is interesting that, you know, you get a cemetery full
Speaker 2: of dead people, but these legends refuse to stay buried.
Speaker 2: I mean they won't.
Speaker 6: They just keep rising.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have a lot more undead qualities than the corpses, right,
Speaker 2: they just keep rising from the grave again and again.
Speaker 2: You offer a solution for people who want it, you know,
Speaker 2: and I imagine most people don't because we're terrible fun ruiners.
Speaker 2: But I like knowing what's really going.
Speaker 5: A good point. Yeah, well me too, Me too. And
Speaker 5: it was really fun to piece this together and go
Speaker 5: out and to experience it in different climates, different times
Speaker 5: of year. And I mean, it's the kind of thing
Speaker 5: that people like us do, really pigheaded and determined to
Speaker 5: get to the bottom of these things, and so it
Speaker 5: was just so exciting to find that answer, that solution.
Speaker 5: But no, it hasn't really changed anything.
Speaker 2: No, but it is so glorious to find those smoking
Speaker 2: guns when you can.
Speaker 6: It's so good.
Speaker 2: It's so good, it really was.
Speaker 5: It was just a good feeling of satisfaction that we've
Speaker 5: done our job well and anyway, so it's just nice
Speaker 5: to know that the information's out there, as you say,
Speaker 5: if you want it.
Speaker 2: We have no air condition right now. It's in the
Speaker 2: nineties outside. We've been sleeping on the floor just trying
Speaker 2: to stay cool. And to imagine being on a snowy
Speaker 2: field on a cold night in Colorado. I would have
Speaker 2: some coffee and looking for ghost slightes. This glorious to
Speaker 2: me right now, absolutely glorious.
Speaker 6: Yes, this is the reason we brought this up. It's
Speaker 6: like knew you were suffering. It makes me so.
Speaker 5: Happy, like watching one of those videos on YouTube of
Speaker 5: rain exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we would, we would love my yard is
Speaker 2: psychologically my heart's gone from green to beige for real,
Speaker 2: Like we haven't handrat in a while.
Speaker 6: So it's bad.
Speaker 2: But hey, thank you for sharing this, thank.
Speaker 5: You for yeah, for for resurrecting this again. But it
Speaker 5: is just one of those perennial stories. It's always out there.
Speaker 5: But I would like to mention something else, and that
Speaker 5: is that when this show comes out, that's my latest
Speaker 5: book will have come out as well. Bitch, the Journey
Speaker 5: of a work.
Speaker 2: Beep it out?
Speaker 6: How scare you.
Speaker 5: Leave it in for the patrons?
Speaker 2: That's right, Your coming out really much.
Speaker 5: I hope that's our listeners who are interested in the
Speaker 5: history and the folklore and popular culture of this word
Speaker 5: will run out and grab a copy.
Speaker 2: People have been hounding you to know when it was
Speaker 2: coming out, and.
Speaker 5: I see what you did.
Speaker 6: Female hounding.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, now there mystery is curtailed. All right,
Speaker 2: this is fantastic. Thank you so much guys for sharing
Speaker 2: the story and the research. I'll put some It's okay
Speaker 2: to use these photos in the show notes. Yes, yes, fantastic.
Speaker 6: All right.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, So if you happen to find yourself out
Speaker 2: in this particular cemetery and see lights, you know, don't
Speaker 2: be afraid. Just tune in. Remind yourself it's just on reflection,
Speaker 2: it's not that dangerous.
Speaker 5: And on that note, we'll be back soon.
Speaker 4: Monster.
Speaker 2: You've been listening to Monster Doc, the science show about monsters.
Speaker 2: I'm Blake's and I'm Karen Stolesner. You just heard Karen
Speaker 2: Stolesno and Matt Baxter tell the story of the Silvercliff
Speaker 2: Cemetery lights and how they uncovered the illuminating history behind
Speaker 2: that story. Check out the show notes for links for
Speaker 2: more details about this case and a link to Karen's
Speaker 2: book Haunting America, which has a chapter about solving this mystery.
Speaker 2: And there's also a link in the show notes to
Speaker 2: Karen's very latest book, Bitch, The Journey of a Word.
Speaker 2: We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Monster Talk. Each
Speaker 2: episode we strive to bring you the very best in
Speaker 2: monster related content with a focus on bringing scientific skepticism
Speaker 2: into the conversation. If you enjoy Monster Talk, we now
Speaker 2: have a variety of ways to support the show, all
Speaker 2: with convenient links at monster talk dot org forwarge slash support.
Speaker 2: That's monster talk dot org forwarge Slash support. We have
Speaker 2: links there to our Patreon page, as well as a
Speaker 2: donation button. Another great way to support the show is
Speaker 2: to buy books from our Amazon Monster Talk wish List,
Speaker 2: which directly helps us.
Speaker 6: With our research.
Speaker 2: We love used books very much, so don't feel compelled
Speaker 2: to buy new ones, and we love kindles so we
Speaker 2: could share our digital libraries with each other and finally,
Speaker 2: without spending any money at all. You can support us
Speaker 2: by leaving a positive review at iTunes or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. Positive reviews help keep us visible in iTunes,
Speaker 2: which is a great way to help us find new listeners,
Speaker 2: and please share our show on your favorite social media platforms.
Speaker 2: Monster Talk theme music is by Peach Stealing Monkeys to
Speaker 2: steal a line from Stephen Frye. If you have been
Speaker 2: thanks for listening.
Speaker 5: Yeh, this has been a Monster House presentation