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Terms and editions apply to see website for detail. 46 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:17.879 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 47 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:21.000 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 48 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:28.639 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 49 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:32.639 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 50 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:36.680 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 51 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:40.199 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 52 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:54.120 Good Evening. When an eleven year old James Renner fell 53 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:58.159 in love with Amy Mihaljevik, the missing girls seen on 54 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.879 posters all over his namehood, it was beginning of a 55 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:06.800 lifelong obsession with true crime. That obsession leads James to 56 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:10.800 a successful career as an investigative journalist. It also gave 57 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:14.520 him p T. S d. In two thousand eleven, James 58 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:19.400 began researching the strange disappearance of Mora Murray, a University 59 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:22.280 of mass student who went missing after wrecking her car 60 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:26.360 in rural New Hampshire in two thousand and four. Over 61 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:30.199 the course of his investigation, he uncovers numerous important and 62 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.159 in shocking new clues about what may have happened to Mora, 63 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:38.240 but also finds himself in increasingly dangerous situations with little 64 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:41.680 regard for his own well being. As his quest to 65 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:44.639 find Mora deepens, the case starts taking a toll on 66 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:48.360 his personal life which begins to spiral out of control. 67 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:52.560 The result is an absorbing dual investigation of the complicated 68 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.960 story of the all American girl who went missing and 69 00:03:56.120 --> 00:04:01.599 James's own equally complicated true crime addiction. James Renner's True 70 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:04.919 Crime Addict is the story of his spellbinding investigation of 71 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:08.599 the missing person's case of Maura Murray, which has taken 72 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:11.759 on a life of its own for armchair saluths across 73 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.120 the web. In the spirit of David Fincher's Zodiac. It 74 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:18.319 is a fascinating look at a case that has eluded 75 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:24.800 authorities and one's man's obsessive quest for answers. The book 76 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:28.639 that we're featuring this evening is True Crime Addict, How 77 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:32.160 I Lost Myself in the Mysterious Disappearance of Moura Murray, 78 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.360 with my special guest, journalist and author James Renner. Welcome 79 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:39.639 to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. 80 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:45.600 James Renner, Hi, there, can you hear me? Yes, I can. 81 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:48.199 Welcome to the program. James. Thank you very much. 82 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:52.560 Oh thanks for having me. Thanks a lot, This is 83 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:54.160 a lot of fun. Thank you. 84 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:59.199 Now let's start with giving the audience your background, because 85 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:02.199 I think it's very important to this story obviously, as 86 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:05.879 the audience will discover. Tell us what your background is 87 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:10.319 in true crime. Some of this we alluded to it 88 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.720 with the story of Amy. So tell us a little 89 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:17.560 bit about your your investigative journalism background which will be 90 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:18.519 important to this story. 91 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:25.519 Sure, I was a journalist, a reporter for Cleveland Scene, 92 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:31.519 which is the village voice like newspaper in Cleveland for 93 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:35.319 about some of eight years, and I kind of became 94 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:39.040 the true crime guy in Cleveland at a time where 95 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:42.079 we had a few active serial killers in town that 96 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.839 you might have heard of, Anthony Sowell on Ariel Castro, 97 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:50.920 and I actually started writing crime. One of the first 98 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:54.279 stories I pitched was I wanted to take a new 99 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:59.800 look at the cold case of Amy Nahalovic. Now, Amy 100 00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:04.360 was ten years old when she was abducted across the 101 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:07.800 street from the Bay Village Police Department and Day Village 102 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:13.160 is a western suburb of Cleveland, very affluent. It's where 103 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:16.079 you know a lot of the FBI agents raised their 104 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:21.839 own families. Now, this little girl was abducted broad daylight 105 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:27.000 on a Friday afternoon in late October October twenty seventh, 106 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:29.839 nineteen eighty nine. Like I said, right across from the 107 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:33.759 police station, there's a little shopping plaza there. And Amy 108 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:35.920 and I are actually the same age. We were both 109 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:39.360 born in nineteen seventy eight, and at the time she 110 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:42.079 was in fifth grade, I was in sixth grade and 111 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:44.600 my mother lived in Rocky River, which was one town over. 112 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:47.600 So this case had a huge impact on me as 113 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:51.160 a kid. And I remember seeing her missing posters all 114 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:57.360 over every telephone pool around Cleveland in nineteen eighty nine. 115 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:00.240 And when I saw that picture of the first that 116 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:02.879 struck me as oh, she's you know, she's really cute. 117 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:05.519 You know, if she was in my sixth grade class, 118 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:08.160 i'd be passing notes to her, you know, behind this 119 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:14.279 client's back right. And you know, so I, for many reasons, 120 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:18.399 I developed this, uh, this odd obsession. This even back then, 121 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.040 when I was eleven years old, I would get on 122 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:23.759 my bike and I would ride to this mall it's 123 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:27.240 called Westgate Mall, kind of near Bay Dog, and I 124 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:29.759 figured this was the place where the most people were 125 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.680 at at any given time, and I would look for 126 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:36.240 any in the crowds, thinking, well, maybe whoever, Sofia brought 127 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:38.600 her back, or maybe she got away, and you know 128 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:41.519 this is where she would go, and of course when 129 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.639 they found their body a couple months later, you know, 130 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.839 I would still continue to go there looking for her, 131 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:52.439 the face of her abductor in the crowds. And so 132 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:56.519 it was a very weird hobby for an eleven year 133 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:59.720 old to have, right and as an adult now looking 134 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.199 back at that, you know, I and through the course 135 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:06.839 of writing this book on Laura Murray, this true crime addict, 136 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:10.759 I had to ask myself, well, why why did I 137 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.800 gravitate towards that eleven years old? Why was I trying 138 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:17.120 to find her killure? And you know, I kind of 139 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:20.199 explored that a little bit as I'm exploring the disappearance 140 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:22.439 of Laing early in the book. So the book is 141 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:26.240 very personal, it's very memoir at the same time, it's 142 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.040 very much about the disappearance of Laura Murray and where 143 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:30.240 that case stands today. 144 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.799 Now. You, as I mentioned in the opening, you didn't 145 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:37.600 get involved till twenty eleven, So we're talking about seven 146 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:42.720 years after the crime. What was the state of the 147 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:47.600 Murray family itself in terms of their efforts to have 148 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:52.679 a website or something dedicated to the still the slim 149 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:57.039 hope that she was alive, and well, so what was 150 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:59.200 the state at that time seven years later, and what 151 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.240 did you learn from from, say, the websites at that time, 152 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:05.039 what did you sort of your general knowledge over and 153 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:09.480 beyond based on some of the stuff that's been posted 154 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.919 by the family at that time or during that time. 155 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:18.200 Sure, so I actually got involved with researching the case, 156 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.559 I'd say back in twenty ten, you know. So, yeah, 157 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:23.919 at least six years on, and when I started to 158 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.840 get involved and I started my research, everything had gone quiet. 159 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:32.559 It was a very cold case. And the way it 160 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.200 was presented at the time was that mar Murray was 161 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:40.320 this all American girl, perfect to a fault, former West 162 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:45.600 Point Cadet, nothing but good grades, skies that the met. 163 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:47.639 This was going to be somebody who's going to do 164 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:52.519 great things. And she disappeared, you know, and in the 165 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.080 White Mountains of New Hampshire. Now the family were no 166 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:00.399 longer active researching for her. You know, they had done 167 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:02.559 these searches back in two thousand and four after she 168 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.080 went missing. So you know, the state of the case 169 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.960 was very it was very quiet. There's an official family 170 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:13.240 web page run by somebody that you know a kind 171 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.879 of a woman who's not blood related, but had married 172 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:19.840 into the Murray family. She had never met Maura, but 173 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:23.080 she had That's not so uncommon, you know, a lot 174 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:26.080 of times, you know, families need a little bit of 175 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:29.320 a separation between the public and what's going on behind 176 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:31.440 the scenes. So it made sense that she was running 177 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:36.000 the official page. But that was really it. And the 178 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:41.840 reason I was attracted to the More Murray mystery was 179 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:45.360 I was looking for a national story to work on 180 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.000 I had. I was no longer working for Scene. I 181 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:50.080 was looking to write another true crime book. I had 182 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:52.919 already written a couple, but I wanted to do something national, 183 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.360 something bigger. And I was sitting at home one day 184 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:58.000 and the twenty twenty special came on. There was a 185 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.879 special about More Murray's disappearance, also the disappearance of Brooke Wilberger, 186 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:05.320 which has since been solved. Something about Maura Murray's case 187 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:09.559 struck me as particularly unusual and different, And it's the 188 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.080 fact that Laura Murray's case is actually a bit of 189 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:15.399 a double mystery. There's two mysteries going on here. And 190 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.840 just a real quick summary, Laura Murray was twenty two. 191 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.039 She was a student at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. 192 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:27.600 She was studying nursing. On a Monday in February, she 193 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.000 emailed her professors and said, there's been a death in 194 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:31.720 the family. Hold my work. I'll be in at the 195 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:35.120 end of the week. Then she empties her bank account 196 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:37.840 only to the end of about two hundred and eighty dollars, 197 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:42.600 gets into her car, drives hours north into the White 198 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:46.440 Mountains of New Hampshire. Around seven thirty that night, her 199 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:49.519 car impacts the snow bank on the side of a 200 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:55.039 wild amnusic road, Route one twelve up there. Sometime between 201 00:11:55.039 --> 00:12:01.000 the accident and the first responding officer it was we're 202 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:04.399 talking like maybe seven minutes, and it could be as 203 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.519 few as three minutes. But between the accident police arrived 204 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.279 Somewhere in that time frame, she vanished, never to be 205 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:15.799 seen again. And you know what makes it a double mystery, 206 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.639 right is the first mystery is what happened to more 207 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.840 in Murray. The second mystery is what was she doing 208 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:24.159 in the White Mountains? To begin with? Why did she 209 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.600 lie to with a professor's Where was she going? And 210 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:29.120 I figured if I could figure out the answer to 211 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:32.120 that question, we'd get a lot closer to the answer 212 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:35.960 to what happened to her to begin with, So it 213 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:38.159 seemed like the odds were in my favorite I could 214 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:41.200 at least solve, you know, one of those questions. And 215 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.000 so I devoted the next five six years of my 216 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.000 life to research and writing this book. And I do 217 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:48.960 believe I've answered the question as to what she was 218 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:49.960 doing up there. 219 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.279 Now before you undertake this for all the Again, we 220 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:59.720 talked about all the amateur sleuths that were that you 221 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:05.879 you you use their assistance. You relied on a lot 222 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:08.919 of the postings for information, and then one contact led 223 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:12.480 to another. So you did use social media for that purpose. 224 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:19.919 Tell us the other techniques that you embarked upon that 225 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:24.440 you had used before, but you were especially going to 226 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:27.879 need in this case to be able to fully research this, 227 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.200 and so tell us a couple of the things that 228 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:33.320 you used that you employed to be able to do 229 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:33.919 this research. 230 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.840 Sure. Well, yeah, like you said, the first thing I 231 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:40.639 did was I started a blog devoted to the case, 232 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:45.080 because I had already had a blog running devoted to 233 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:47.200 Amie the heal of It case. And what I discovered 234 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:51.000 is you can build a really decent blog with detailed 235 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:53.440 information on the cold case. It kind of becomes a 236 00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:57.039 lightning lot for new information and clues. So, for instance, 237 00:13:57.039 --> 00:13:59.759 with Amy's case, you know, some of their old classmates 238 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:03.039 would google her name wondering whatever happened to this case, 239 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:05.960 and they would be directed to my blog and then 240 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:08.799 if they had information to share, they could easily contact 241 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:12.440 me with an email. So and even you know, you'd 242 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:14.200 be surprised with being in the hell of the case, 243 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:17.159 I was contacted by suspects. I was contacted by people 244 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:20.799 who had new information that they didn't feel comfortable sharing 245 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:23.600 with the police because they have shady backgrounds themselves, but 246 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.000 they would share with me and then I would be 247 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.399 a liaison between that information on the police. So it 248 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.039 worked very well. So that's what I did with More's case. 249 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:33.480 I'm sure enough a lot of these are on chair 250 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:37.919 sleus came forward and helped me, help direct me to 251 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:41.759 new avenues of investigation, and even people that knew more 252 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:45.399 from what point or new mass were able to contact 253 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.360 me through the website too, so it was very helpful. 254 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:51.840 You know, other methods that I used, you know, go 255 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.679 back to when I was a journalist and I'd learned, 256 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:56.960 you know that sometimes it helps to go in these 257 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:01.519 fishing expeditions, that's what that's what we call them, where 258 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:06.639 we send out public records requests to every jurisdiction that 259 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.639 this person has ever lived or spent time in. And 260 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.840 that's what I did, and that's how I discovered the 261 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:17.039 police records that showed that at the time that she disappeared, 262 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:21.440 Laura Murray was in trouble for credit card fraud and 263 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:25.519 identity theft and so these other layers. It's more showing 264 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:28.840 the complicated person that she was started to appear. You know, 265 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:33.720 she had stolen credit cards from other girls, other women 266 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.399 in her dorm and use those credit card numbers and 267 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:40.320 that person's name to order food. So nothing huge, but 268 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:42.120 I mean that's kind of a big deal, you know. 269 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.600 At the same time, the judge said if she could 270 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:47.720 stay out of trouble for six months, that would wipe 271 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:51.360 off her record. Now I don't know that she was 272 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:53.879 able to stay out of trouble though. A couple of 273 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:58.200 days before she disappeared, she was driving her father's car 274 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:01.720 back to his hotel room he had visited her on 275 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:05.440 campus at three o'clock in the morning, and she ran 276 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:07.960 into a guard rail and it appears she was probably 277 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.399 going to be charged with at the very least reckless 278 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:13.679 operation for that, and I think she realized that her 279 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.480 nursing career was kind of over. This credit card charge 280 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:18.879 might be coming back to bite her in the ass, 281 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:23.919 and I think that was one of the many reasons 282 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:27.320 she had to leave and start a new life, because 283 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.799 that's that's what it can happen here. I think, I 284 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.840 feel and think, and I hope at the very least, 285 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:38.279 but I think the evidence points to Mara Murray having 286 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.480 the motive means an opportunity to leave and start a 287 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:42.440 new life someplace. 288 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.960 Okay, we have to go backwards. We have to mention 289 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.440 the actual disappearance itself. And then we talked about a 290 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.919 gentleman named Attwood and the tow truck driver and other 291 00:16:55.960 --> 00:17:00.279 witnesses that obviously that come up in your investigation, but 292 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.599 in your investigation also and in your book, you paint 293 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:10.400 a very vivid portrayal of this woman. Again, we talked 294 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.359 about west Point, which is no mean feat. So let's 295 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:19.279 talk about Mora Murray, who, at least by her achievement, 296 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:22.799 she was. And then through your investigation, there seems to 297 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.160 be a little again, a little krack and the veneer 298 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.880 here in terms of this, all perfect, all American woman. However, 299 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:34.640 again nothing too serious. But again it's the interesting your investigation. 300 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:38.480 So tell us in your investigation, tell us about mor Murray, 301 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.519 her father Fred, tell us about her mother, tell us 302 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:44.079 about her early life. What you found. 303 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:50.200 Sure, So, Moura Murray grew up in Hainton, Massachusetts, which 304 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:54.839 is it's about forty five minutes south of Boston, close 305 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:56.559 enough to the city that you can get there, close 306 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.400 enough to the ocean that you can get there quickly, 307 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:03.440 to a town of Cranberry Bogs. It's where Ocean's Break 308 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.799 got its starts. It's a nice, quaint, little safe suburb 309 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:12.200 of Boston, of Greater Boston anyways, and it reminds me 310 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.119 a lot of the hometown I grew up in here 311 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.160 in Ohio. You know, all the families kind of knew 312 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:20.720 each other. She lived on Joe Anne Drive, which is 313 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.319 a little bit of a cul de sac, but it's 314 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.400 a you know, so it's a it's even a safe 315 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:29.960 little street. Everybody knows each other's business out there. And 316 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:34.720 she Moura was the second youngest in her family. So 317 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:39.880 there was her father, Fred, her mother Laurie. There's Fred Junior, 318 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:44.839 there's Kathleen Murray, the oldest daughter, Julie Murray, and then 319 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:50.079 you've got Maura and a younger brother, Kurt. And after 320 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:54.519 the younger brother, Kurt came along that her parents separated 321 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:58.559 and Fred moved to Weymouth and lived in an old 322 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:02.519 house and there while Maria stayed with her siblings and 323 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:06.640 her mother in Canson. Now, her father was very involved 324 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.759 with her life, even after the separation. He would come 325 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:17.880 down very strict, very controlling. He would condition his daughters 326 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:23.279 into star runners and star athletes. And I say they 327 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.880 conditioned every day. He talked to the neighbors and friends there. 328 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.119 They said, yes, you know, you'd see Maura and Julie 329 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:33.359 running on Christmas morning with Fred, you know, with you know, 330 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:36.920 shouting behind them. You know they're urging them on. So 331 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:42.559 they and they became star athletes in high school track 332 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:46.519 and field and cross country. Julie was first and she 333 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:50.440 was fast. Now Moura came up a year after Julie, 334 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:53.559 and she was faster and she was better there for 335 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:58.400 a little while. After graduation, Julie goes on to West 336 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.720 Point and then more follows her, and Drelie ends up 337 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:08.119 graduating Least Point. Moura lasts. I think it's three semesters 338 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:12.680 heading into her fourth when she leaves. Now, just one 339 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.519 of the stories that the family kind of, you know, well, 340 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:20.960 her father specifically lies about at times, and you can 341 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.200 kind of understand them and kind of not you know, 342 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:25.599 she's missing. Why are you lying about anything? Nurse Point. 343 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:28.559 But the truth is Maura was about to be kicked 344 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:33.279 out of West Point when she withdrew in the spring 345 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.079 semester of her sophomore year to go to unass Amherst 346 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:41.400 and begin her nursing and begin studying for nursing there. 347 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:47.119 What happened at West Point was and this took you know, 348 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:49.000 I'd heard rumors for a while, but it took a 349 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.920 while to track down and speak to the people involved. 350 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.440 She she got in trouble for stealing from Fort Knox 351 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:59.839 of all places. Now you know, if that's not a 352 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.000 right for help. I don't know what is stealing from 353 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.039 the most secure facility in the United States, but what 354 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:09.240 she had stolen, again, we're having small things in big situations. 355 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.559 She stole make up from the commissary at Fort Knox, 356 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:16.359 and she got caught and she was brought up on 357 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.279 They have their own little judicial process within West Point, 358 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.720 and you know, they were going to recommend that she'd 359 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:26.720 be expelled, and before that happened, she withdrew so that 360 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:30.720 she didn't have that on her record. Now, during that process, 361 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.519 that whole judiciary process, it's kind of interesting, she ended 362 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.279 up meeting one of the fellow student liaisons with the 363 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.720 Judicial Review Board and his name's Bill Raush, and they 364 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:43.640 end up having a relationship. And it's Bill Raush who 365 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.319 you see in the early reports and sometimes he's referred 366 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:53.200 to her, referred to as her fiance, but they weren't 367 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:55.839 quite engaged to be married. They had kind of promised 368 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.039 to become engaged, but the endpoint made it that far. 369 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:03.720 But had spent that Christmas holiday with Bill and his 370 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:08.680 family in Ohio a month before she disappeared in two 371 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:11.119 thousand and four, so they were pretty close. So that 372 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.319 that's kind of a quick overview of of More. She 373 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.519 you know, she was an overachieved in school. She came 374 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:23.119 from a big family, although it was broken, you know, 375 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:27.599 there were troubles there. Her mother was an alcoholic. She 376 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:31.400 ended up dying just a couple of years after More disappeared. 377 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:36.240 Actually she died on Laura's birthday, and so, you know, 378 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:41.440 it's a complicated, complicated family, you know, a New England family, Catholic, 379 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:43.880 you know, perhaps Catholic type. 380 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:48.440 Of What was the status of the relationship with Bill Rausch. 381 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.839 You say that they met, it was good, good relationship, 382 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.960 and you say they weren't engaged. But was there any infidelity? 383 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:01.200 Was she faithful? What did you determine? What did you 384 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:03.880 determine through her girlfriends and your research? 385 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:10.640 Well, you talked to More's friends and family, and they're 386 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:13.440 very candid about the fact that nobody really liked Bill 387 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:17.799 raush you know, and the reason why the family at 388 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.559 least didn't like Bill rashes because he cheated on Laura 389 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:26.640 more than once. Now, it's interesting to note when Moore disappeared, 390 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:29.039 the police eventually got into her dorm room and they 391 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.319 found that all of her things, or most of their things, 392 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:34.319 had been packed neatly into boxes, and on top of 393 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:38.440 the boxes was printed out email from Billy that Billy 394 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:39.200 had sent to. 395 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:41.240 Laura. 396 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:46.480 And in the email, he's talking about how he cheated 397 00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:49.920 on Laura, you know. So you know that almost seems 398 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:54.160 like you know, Morris saying kind of f you to 399 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:58.359 Bill on the way out. That's one interpretation of it. Otherwise, 400 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.759 why would you print that out? Maybe on top few boxes. 401 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:04.359