Speaker 1: And it seems like there's a decent amount of executive
Speaker 1: orders on deck. Now the question is, well, this would
Speaker 1: be a day one executive order, a week one executive order,
Speaker 1: or sometime in the first hundred days. It seems like
Speaker 1: acre in initial reports, we'll probably get next week. And
Speaker 1: if I had to imagine what these executive order would be,
Speaker 1: I imagine SAT one twenty one is right on the
Speaker 1: top of the list. As well as kind of creating
Speaker 1: the actual crypto council.
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Speaker 2: Welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. You're home for cryptocurrency
Speaker 2: news and interviews. I'm your host, Tony Edward and my
Speaker 2: guest today is Ron Hammond, Director of Government relations at
Speaker 2: the Blockchain Association. Ron, great to see you.
Speaker 1: Happy New Year, Happy new Year, Tony. Always great to
Speaker 1: be chatting. So got a lot of dive into so
Speaker 1: looking forward to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ron, I saw your post yesterday recapping what's going
Speaker 2: to happen this week or what you expect for crypto
Speaker 2: and boy, there's so much going on, Ron, how about
Speaker 2: we start about the new Digital Assets Subcommittee in the Senate.
Speaker 1: This is huge, it's massive, and this is kind of
Speaker 1: the precursor to what we saw in the House two
Speaker 1: years ago where they formed their Digital asset subcommittees and
Speaker 1: that became kind of the basin where a lot of
Speaker 1: the legislation that became Fit twenty one stable coins formed.
Speaker 1: But we've never seen that in the Senate. And Tim
Speaker 1: Scott establishing the Senate Banking Committee on a Digital Aid
Speaker 1: subcommittee is a major major milestone. And even better, it's
Speaker 1: a really good lineup it folks we have on that subcommittee,
Speaker 1: especially on the Republican side. The so we have Centered
Speaker 1: Lummits is chairing it right now, and then we have
Speaker 1: a lot of good other folks like Bill Haggerty for example,
Speaker 1: Tom Hillis, Bernie Morino and several others. So really looking
Speaker 1: forward to what's going to come out of that subcommittee.
Speaker 1: The hearings are going to get happening, as well as
Speaker 1: the legislation that likely would be going through that committee
Speaker 1: hopefully pretty soon.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And some big champions of crypto in that subcommittee,
Speaker 2: Senator Lumbus, you mentioned Haggerty, and I saw even Tim
Speaker 2: Scott this morning release a statement about his priorities for
Speaker 2: one hundred and nineteenth Congress. They want to get some
Speaker 2: sort of framework around digital assets through. So are you
Speaker 2: anticipating this subcommittee will help get some sort of bill
Speaker 2: through the Sendate this year?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 1: And just for a little history lesson for those who
Speaker 1: may not be following this as much. You know, we've
Speaker 1: had a lot of issues with the Senate in the past,
Speaker 1: and now, mind you was usually under Democrat control. But
Speaker 1: even any bill that moved out of the House, for
Speaker 1: the most part, that was pro crypto, it ended up
Speaker 1: dying usually in the Senate, or there was enough pressure
Speaker 1: in political you know, I guess I see in gateways
Speaker 1: at the Senate that the House just decided not to
Speaker 1: go forward at all. So having that barrier gone is huge,
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of the legislation that usually
Speaker 1: forms in the House, we're going to see some of
Speaker 1: that now forming in the sentence it takes in her lumbs.
Speaker 1: For example, she's really advocating heavily for the Bitcoin Stugut Reserve.
Speaker 1: That's her passion project, and it is very likely since
Speaker 1: she's the subcommittee chair, we're going to have hearings on this.
Speaker 1: And you know, for a long time a lot of
Speaker 1: people on Twitter have been following a lot of our
Speaker 1: pro crypto champions and they've been saying some great things.
Speaker 1: But the reality now is that these are folks who
Speaker 1: are now in charge of these subcommittee souse the tweaks
Speaker 1: matter a lot.
Speaker 3: What they view matters a lot.
Speaker 1: It's going to dictate what hearings happen, as well as
Speaker 1: what bills move forward and what bills don't move forward.
Speaker 1: And so we have a lot of good allies and
Speaker 1: allies and power positions, and that really does pave a
Speaker 1: way for potentially a really positive pro crypto Congress. But
Speaker 1: still there will be political hurdles in the way, so
Speaker 1: we'll help the deal with that as time comes on.
Speaker 2: Speaking of hurdles, yesterday I saw Elizabeth Warren send some
Speaker 2: topics or questions for the Scott was sent confirmation hearing
Speaker 2: seems like she's trying to ramp up her anti crypto
Speaker 2: sentiment and talking points again exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was probably the worst blunder, I would
Speaker 1: say of the campaign cycle, at least in our very
Speaker 1: niche area, was making the anti crypto army and really
Speaker 1: leading into it, and that just backfired tremendously, where even
Speaker 1: when Van Jones was on CNN the other day saying
Speaker 1: the war on crypto is one of the reason why
Speaker 1: the Democrats lost, which is crazy to hear about that,
Speaker 1: and again years ago not thought that'd be possible. But
Speaker 1: the facts speaking themselves and the votes speak themselves too,
Speaker 1: And so the question kind of was, where's Listen Warring
Speaker 1: to go next. She's just gonna let this go off
Speaker 1: to the side and focus on other issues that she
Speaker 1: has more priority on, or is she really gonna le
Speaker 1: double down And that's kind of what we've see. And
Speaker 1: she's doubling down on crypto, on the idea that's only
Speaker 1: used for money laundering, and I think that's going to
Speaker 1: present a couple challenges and hurdles and the Senate, you know,
Speaker 1: mind you again, the Senate for example, there's only a
Speaker 1: three vote majority I believe in the Republicans have right now,
Speaker 1: but for a lot of bills, they're gonna need sixty
Speaker 1: members of Congress in the Senate to vote for it,
Speaker 1: and so you're going to have to work with Democrats here.
Speaker 1: And when Elizabeth Warren is leading the set of band committee,
Speaker 1: she will have a lot more power in terms of
Speaker 1: whipping Democrats to be anti crypto or voting against certain
Speaker 1: pieces of legislation. So she's definitely going to be a hurdle.
Speaker 1: And that was definitely an opening salvo in terms of
Speaker 1: how she's going to view the Tcharnity secretary nomination and
Speaker 1: most likely pretty soon the sec nomination that comes her
Speaker 1: Senate banking that's gonna be her committee as well. So
Speaker 1: get ready for that because I think e lizebth Warren
Speaker 1: is doubling down. And you know, the good thing is
Speaker 1: that we have the facts on our side, and we
Speaker 1: have a lot of momentum, and I think she is
Speaker 1: going to be the naysayer, but for the most part
Speaker 1: she's in minority. So the good thing is that we
Speaker 1: can move forward with the pro crypto members and the majority.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, a good, great point, she's in the minority.
Speaker 2: And and I remember Chuck Schumer part of the Senate.
Speaker 2: Of course, at the end of twin twenty four, he was,
Speaker 2: you know, on the side of getting legislation through. So
Speaker 2: I'm hoping he can raise his voice and get some
Speaker 2: more Democrats to back him in the Senate exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, you take the SAB one twenty one vote
Speaker 1: that happened a couple months ago. Chuck Schumer and several
Speaker 1: other Democrats in the Senate, they bucked Liz of Warren
Speaker 1: and they voted to repeal SAB one twenty one. It
Speaker 1: was actually Joe Buying new vetoed. It's still but that
Speaker 1: bill itself was the most by Parson Bill Joe Bying
Speaker 1: ever vetoed in his administration, which is crazy to think about,
Speaker 1: but that out of all the bills out there, that
Speaker 1: was the one that had the most by parts in support.
Speaker 1: So internally, we're feeling pretty good in terms of, you know,
Speaker 1: we educate our allies, We've reached out to, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe different constituencies that we want to care about Crypto
Speaker 1: U and it's worked in the past, and now we
Speaker 1: have a much better field and chessboard in terms of
Speaker 1: getting legislation through blocking big bad rules or bad legislation, uh, and.
Speaker 3: Then getting things done. This is the crunch time here.
Speaker 1: Next year and a half two years are going to
Speaker 1: be really really busy here in DC, and we want
Speaker 1: to get as much accomplished can before you know, whatever
Speaker 1: happens the election next go around.
Speaker 2: Now, speaking of SAB one to one, there are talks
Speaker 2: about Donald Trump, who's the inaugurations next week, that we
Speaker 2: may see day one some sort of crypto executive order,
Speaker 2: possibly the repeal ASAB one to one. Are these just
Speaker 2: rumors or are there any valid validity to them?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 1: I've been talking with the executive director for the Hubble
Speaker 1: Crypto Council BOHINES pretty extensively through the past couple of
Speaker 1: weeks as well. My boss is David Sachs, and it
Speaker 1: seems like there's a decent amount of executive orders on deck.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: The question is will this be a day one executive order,
Speaker 1: a week one executive order, or sometime in the first
Speaker 1: hundred days. It seems like, according to initial reports, we'll
Speaker 1: probably get next week. And if I had to imagine
Speaker 1: what these executive orders would be, I imagine SAV one twenty
Speaker 1: one is right on the top of the list, as
Speaker 1: well as creating the actual Crypto Council. It's unclear still
Speaker 1: to this extent if it's going to be ten companies,
Speaker 1: twenty companies, executives one hundred. There's been reports in all
Speaker 1: three numbers, but overall they need to make an executive
Speaker 1: order to make this council. So I think we're sure
Speaker 1: we'll see a council formation in the details of that
Speaker 1: unfold next week. We could see us that one twenty
Speaker 1: one repeal. We could see something on dbanking, or we
Speaker 1: can also see something about changing the ethics rules for
Speaker 1: White House employees or administration employees that they can actually
Speaker 1: hold crypto, because when I was a Hill staffer, I
Speaker 1: didn't hold crypto, but it was very detrimental to me
Speaker 1: personally just to learn the issue. And I think that's
Speaker 1: one of the education encounters we've had is just a
Speaker 1: lot of people refuse to touch it because they don't
Speaker 1: want to be you know, in law or a flaw
Speaker 1: I guess of the epics law. So that tweak is
Speaker 1: going to need a lot as well. So there's a
Speaker 1: wide variety of issues that they could probably do the
Speaker 1: executive order on and then probably will be multiple, but
Speaker 1: for sure it seems like we're going to sell you
Speaker 1: next week.
Speaker 2: When you say Crypto Council, and you know, we got
Speaker 2: a white house, cryptos are and all these people. Almost
Speaker 2: I feel I have to pinch myself because it doesn't
Speaker 2: feel real, like I couldn't have expictured this.
Speaker 1: The crazy thing is in DC is I mean again,
Speaker 1: I've been in the policies hide when like no one
Speaker 1: cared about Crypto. Man, I was twenty seventeen, twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Things are change a little bit, but
Speaker 1: now we are kind of the hottest player in town.
Speaker 1: You know, if we have a lot of allies in Congress,
Speaker 1: the administration is.
Speaker 3: Head over heels of Crypto.
Speaker 1: A lot of folks are donating to the inauguration as
Speaker 1: well as just more to the campaign itself. And there
Speaker 1: seems to be a whole revital here and Crypto is
Speaker 1: leading the charge. And so we'll see how long that
Speaker 1: you know, honeymoon period lasts. But at least right now
Speaker 1: there's a lot of optimism in DC and just generally
Speaker 1: with the community, and Crypto is making a huge impact
Speaker 1: in DC and the social scene. I mean, we have
Speaker 1: the Crypto ball coming up on front Snoop Dogg is
Speaker 1: performing at where do we go over here? And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm glad everyone's going to be celebrating stuff. We had
Speaker 1: a lot of work ahead of us. But it's weird
Speaker 1: how crypto is now a major force in DC and
Speaker 1: DC is welcoming it right now, and that's been very
Speaker 1: different in the past couple of years.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely complete one eighty. You mentioned that the inauguration
Speaker 2: ball is that hosted? Who's putting that together? And is
Speaker 2: Donald Trump gonna attend?
Speaker 1: To my knowledge, no, we won't have any vans or
Speaker 1: Trump will not be there, but it's apparently Sacks's events.
Speaker 1: I think Bitcoin Magazine I believe is one of the
Speaker 1: organizers as well as well as Bitcoin Media.
Speaker 3: There's a couple other inauguration events.
Speaker 1: Every state society does their own events, so it's you know,
Speaker 1: the time for balls and pageants all during an auguration
Speaker 1: week and then come next week after Trump's in office,
Speaker 1: the real work begins and there's a lot So we
Speaker 1: have nominations, we have bills moving forward, we have committees
Speaker 1: being formed, so you know, this is the honeymoon period,
Speaker 1: but it's gonna be very briefly over and it's going
Speaker 1: to get really really busy soon.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think after all this got to be heads down,
Speaker 2: get to work right, and we got some opposition to
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren, so we got definitely put the work in. Now.
Speaker 2: Gary Genser a current SEC chair, but he is going
Speaker 2: to be out by next week. He's been doing some
Speaker 2: exit interviews this week. Seems he's trying to save some
Speaker 2: face here. But it comes in the week that another
Speaker 2: judge calls the SEC arbitrary and capricious, second time under
Speaker 2: Gary Gainster's tenure. This is kind of crazy. What are
Speaker 2: your thoughts on all this?
Speaker 1: It's I think one of the main facts is that
Speaker 1: the arguments of the industry has been having for years
Speaker 1: has now gone mainstream. He's seeing CNBC anchors pushing him
Speaker 1: back against Kensler and trying to have his legacy of sorts.
Speaker 1: We've seen the judges in the third circuit to the
Speaker 1: coinbase case. It was two Democrats and one Republican judge,
Speaker 1: and they all voted that it was arbitrary and capricious
Speaker 1: on the SEC end, not to provide clear rules of
Speaker 1: the road and to explain their reasoning. So I'm excited
Speaker 1: to see what the SEC reasoning is for not providing
Speaker 1: the rules of the road, because we've been asking this
Speaker 1: for years and Coinbasse has done a hell the job
Speaker 1: both on the legal front, but I was well in
Speaker 1: the lobbying policy front, educating members and really leading the
Speaker 1: charge here. So we're really excited from all the work
Speaker 1: they're doing on the court side, and it's going to
Speaker 1: yield them, hopefully some really positive results with a new
Speaker 1: SEC at the helm and so against is a wounded animal.
Speaker 1: You know, we'll see if he does anything else in
Speaker 1: the last few days, but that was a major blow,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think his PR press tour for
Speaker 1: his waning days are not going as well as maybe
Speaker 1: he predicted.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Now Paul Atkins, of course is the next SEC chair.
Speaker 2: When do you think he might be confirmed? Is it
Speaker 2: towards the end of January?
Speaker 3: I believe so.
Speaker 1: So it seems like he's still work on some paperwork
Speaker 1: from internal sources, and we're having some of the nomination
Speaker 1: hearings this week. So Hegsek was yesterday that a lot
Speaker 1: of folks we're you know more spout around in the
Speaker 1: media for we have best on Thursday, we have plenty
Speaker 1: of other ones for other agencies and posts, but it doesn't.
Speaker 3: Have any yet for the SEC.
Speaker 1: So I do think either next week or the week after,
Speaker 1: we'll probably see hopefully Atkins in front of Set and Banking.
Speaker 1: But again, liztid Warren is going to be the Democrat
Speaker 1: lead on that committee, and so how heavy does she
Speaker 1: go into crypto much to focus on other issues are
Speaker 1: going to be really telling for the next two years
Speaker 1: where Warren's really gonna you know, dig in. But already
Speaker 1: we've seen crypto as one of our topics she's going
Speaker 1: to be doubling down on, so we're really excited to
Speaker 1: see kind of how that goes forward. It seems like
Speaker 1: Atkins is viewed as a non controversial pick and so
Speaker 1: likely move forward and hopefully he can get into place
Speaker 1: very soon. So folks like Hesser, Purse and market Wada
Speaker 1: and several other than the staff side who've been waiting
Speaker 1: for years for this moment.
Speaker 3: It can start working on rulemaking and uh, you know.
Speaker 1: Getting the clarity of the industry needs and working with
Speaker 1: Congress to get a legislation pass absolutely.
Speaker 2: Now, I know government moves slow. You know, we're talking
Speaker 2: about obviously a pro crypto president coming into office, pro
Speaker 2: crypto Congress, they Senate subcommittee. Are you viewing possibly some
Speaker 2: sort of bill getting through Lake qu two or possibly
Speaker 2: towards the end of the year.
Speaker 1: So french Hill, who's leaning the Final Service Committee, he
Speaker 1: said he wants a stable coin bill done the first
Speaker 1: one hundred days.
Speaker 3: Now does dun mean out of the committee?
Speaker 1: Does that done mean out of the House or do
Speaker 1: the press since desk It's a little unclear. Obviously, a
Speaker 1: lot of these timelines can be very valuable considering that
Speaker 1: there's a lot that's facing Congress right now again all
Speaker 1: the nominations, they have to avoid a budget or a
Speaker 1: budget fight in March, and then they're going to be
Speaker 1: trying to push a tax bill, which cryptos will be
Speaker 1: trying to push a lot of pieces as well there.
Speaker 1: So it's likely we'll probably see some movement in the
Speaker 1: committees from french Hill on both market structure and stable coins.
Speaker 1: But I imagine stable coin goes first, and we'll probably
Speaker 1: have hearings early on in March, so maybe in February
Speaker 1: as well, and now probably progress to a committee vote
Speaker 1: on stable coins. I'm hoping in Q one, but it
Speaker 1: could be early Q two as well. So this is Congress.
Speaker 1: It doesn't move a little slow in the firste hundred
Speaker 1: days and in mid April, so you know, I think
Speaker 1: we we'll see some progress there, but when it comes
Speaker 1: to fit and market structure, that might take a little
Speaker 1: longer time because that bill was still not as flushed
Speaker 1: out and we haven't seen really the same work in
Speaker 1: the Senate in terms of moving that bill forward.
Speaker 3: So I would look at.
Speaker 1: Stable coins first, but also we look at a lot
Speaker 1: of hearings. You know, we've always seen Cen I want
Speaker 1: to say, she wants to do a hearing on dbanking
Speaker 1: and they'll probably a hot topic in the House as well,
Speaker 1: finding out what happened with Operation show point two point
Speaker 1: zero that folks are calling it and going over to
Speaker 1: the FDIC records that have been coming out through Coinbase's
Speaker 1: efforts and several others on Twitter. So I think that's
Speaker 1: gonna take aou a lot of their time early on,
Speaker 1: but they're gonna they're dedicated to move something pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: So french Hill especially is someone who likes to get
Speaker 1: something across the finish line, and so I would look
Speaker 1: to him to be the first mover here. And I
Speaker 1: would see the House hopefully done in the first hundred
Speaker 1: days moving a stable coin bill, or you can at
Speaker 1: least out of the committee.
Speaker 2: Final question, and this one's a hard one, but I'm
Speaker 2: curious of what you're hearing in the DC circles. Do
Speaker 2: you anticipate under Paul Atkins that the SEC may drop
Speaker 2: some of the non fraud cases and even speed up
Speaker 2: some of the settlements things that are you know, like, hey,
Speaker 2: let's settle with Ripple and done right, move forward. Do
Speaker 2: you think you might we might see stuff like that?
Speaker 1: That's a hope. I mean, there were some talks potentially
Speaker 1: of the EO that I mentioned earlier. Maybe there's something
Speaker 1: on the current litigation that they can do there. It's
Speaker 1: still unclear, to be honest, but I'm pretty sure we
Speaker 1: will see actins at least have some push to resolve
Speaker 1: as many of these cases quickly. Some of them have
Speaker 1: progressed pretty far in the courts, and that does create
Speaker 1: a couple of other problems and issues, and so at
Speaker 1: least a couple of lawyers I'm talking to, it's a
Speaker 1: little unclear exactly where the litigation is going to fall
Speaker 1: with actions at the HELM, but overall, it does seem
Speaker 1: again more in a positive direction. It does seem that
Speaker 1: there will be a settlement and then hopefully we'll get
Speaker 1: some clear regulation from the SEC as well as legislation.
Speaker 1: But it's not a guarantee, so we'll have to wait
Speaker 1: and see what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just the end of regulation by enforcement
Speaker 2: itself is such a great thing. But if they can
Speaker 2: drop some of these non fraud cases where they're waiting
Speaker 2: on Congress, like okay, crypto staking, well we need Congress
Speaker 2: to probably tell us if staking itself is a security
Speaker 2: or not. Gary Ginser says stable coins is a security. Well,
Speaker 2: cases are on stable coin, maybe told drop that and
Speaker 2: let wait for the stable coin legislation and all these things, right,
Speaker 2: which once again not fraud. When someone stole money and
Speaker 2: they did bad things, you know, do what you gotta do.
Speaker 2: But some of these cases are just bs, like the
Speaker 2: one against coinbase and crack and so forth, Robinhood, these
Speaker 2: are exactly yeah.
Speaker 1: And like and a lot again to your point, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of efforts in Congress. It takes staking. For example,
Speaker 1: there's a high chance you can see something on staking
Speaker 1: in the big tax bill on reference that's done the
Speaker 1: pipeline Q one Q two. So with all these court actions,
Speaker 1: we could have you know, congressional action that undoes or
Speaker 1: you know, mitigates all of what's happening in the court.
Speaker 1: So when I say it's going to be really really
Speaker 1: busy these first two quarters, it's going to be a whirlwind.
Speaker 1: And the question is just like how far on the
Speaker 1: pro crypto side or how far can we move positive
Speaker 1: elements forward while shedding a lot of the issues that
Speaker 1: have occurred the past four years. And that's what we're saying, folks,
Speaker 1: especially things like de banking, which are very important. Still,
Speaker 1: it's very good to get the bomb of it. So hey, like,
Speaker 1: let's focus a little bit on this, but let's get
Speaker 1: to the nitty already here, and let's get some legislation
Speaker 1: moved and let's sign the law because we don't have
Speaker 1: too much time. And this is a very rare, you know,
Speaker 1: instance where you have a full Republican sweep, and timing
Speaker 1: is going to be the essence because there's a.
Speaker 3: Lot of other priorities besides crypto.
Speaker 1: But the good news is that crypto has made the
Speaker 1: priority list, So that is something that we didn't expect
Speaker 1: years ago.
Speaker 3: But here we are.
Speaker 2: Now absolutely ron as always my friend. Thank you so
Speaker 2: much for the information and the insights. Appreciate you and
Speaker 2: we'll probably have to have you back on maybe next
Speaker 2: secret of the week after because it is so much,
Speaker 2: but thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Sounds good, I wish you're coming to the ball Tony
Speaker 1: and well I'm always at a check so looking forward
Speaker 1: to it.