Speaker 1: Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 2: It beats listening to nothing.
Speaker 3: My goodness, Frank, being Frank, right, were the only way
Speaker 3: to be is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank.
Speaker 3: We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host,
Speaker 3: Frank Lebuono, and I'd like to thank you for joining
Speaker 3: us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast,
Speaker 3: where no conversation is out of bounds and all points
Speaker 3: of view are welcome. Of course, listeners are familiar with
Speaker 3: our routine. We record live to tape. I always give
Speaker 3: you the date so you have some context and relevance.
Speaker 3: Tomorrow is Thanksgiving as a matter of fact, as we
Speaker 3: record a little bit. More on that later, but first,
Speaker 3: the AP recently reported and I quote, President Donald Trump's
Speaker 3: efforts to broker and end the Russia Ukraine War closely
Speaker 3: mirrors the tactics he used to end two years of
Speaker 3: fighting between Israel and Amas. Bold terms that favor one side,
Speaker 3: deadlines for the combatants, and vague outlines for what comes next.
Speaker 3: The details enforcing the terms, guaranteeing security, who pays for
Speaker 3: a rebuilding matter less?
Speaker 4: End quote.
Speaker 3: There's a little question as to exactly which side those
Speaker 3: bold terms favor, and the answer lies in why more
Speaker 3: than who. Despite values that align more closely with our
Speaker 3: own than with Russia, the Trump administration has consistently sided
Speaker 3: with the Russians over the Ukrainians. The most recent proposal,
Speaker 3: as backed by the US for peace, with its draconian
Speaker 3: measures that seems to blame Ukraine for just being Ukraine
Speaker 3: is clear evidence of that. It certainly left their president,
Speaker 3: Votimir Zelensky between a rock and a hard place. It's
Speaker 3: a situation that is so fluid it may even be changing.
Speaker 3: As we report, there is a glimmer of hope for
Speaker 3: more agreeable and balanced terms to end this bitter and
Speaker 3: brutal conflict. It seems that the Trump administration has backed
Speaker 3: off the terms originally proposed. However, based on past performance
Speaker 3: and trends, those who support Ukraine remains skeptical. In addition
Speaker 3: to Ukraine's approval, there is no telling how Putin's Russia
Speaker 3: will respond to the new terms, so there's still a
Speaker 3: long way to go. Returning to being frank to attempt
Speaker 3: to sort it all out in shape a possible future
Speaker 3: for Ukraine and therefore Eastern Europe. Is a man who
Speaker 3: has been there reporting from the very beginning and remains
Speaker 3: steadfast in his support of Ukraine. Please welcome back the
Speaker 3: man I like to call the intrepid phil Ipner. Phil,
Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us again.
Speaker 2: Hi, Frank, could be bad.
Speaker 3: Now we were talking off camera off air, I should say,
Speaker 3: and you literally are back. You're back in the States.
Speaker 3: You're in your home state of Michigan and been back
Speaker 3: for about a week. What brought you back, and let's
Speaker 3: start with that. Why are you back in the station?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean they just I needed to come back
Speaker 2: and take care of some some matters that I had
Speaker 2: to actually physically be here to sign some papers and
Speaker 2: sit down with some people and those things. And of
Speaker 2: course there's also the holidays, so it just and needed
Speaker 2: to take care of some legal and financial stuff.
Speaker 3: So in essence of return to your other life, if
Speaker 3: you will it, because you've been living this and you've
Speaker 3: been there since as I said in the intro, from
Speaker 3: the beginning, it's been over three years. Now. Could you
Speaker 3: ever have imagined being there for three years when you
Speaker 3: first went, Phil.
Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I didn't think it was gonna last
Speaker 2: that long. I had fears that it might bolt down
Speaker 2: and last that long. But I know I didn't. I
Speaker 2: did not think that it would be well now going
Speaker 2: on four years, and know the war would study going on.
Speaker 2: So yeah, in February unfortunately, Yeah, and Phil.
Speaker 3: You know, we see images obviously seemingly wanton destruction that
Speaker 3: again you mentioned close to four years has to be
Speaker 3: taking the toll, you know, I know the Ukrainians are
Speaker 3: bold and proud. It's one of the things I mentioned,
Speaker 3: you know, with Zelensky being put between a rock and
Speaker 3: a hard place, because it seems, you know, if there's
Speaker 3: nothing done, more people will die. But what they were
Speaker 3: proposing to do was obviously not going to work for
Speaker 3: the Ukrainians. But so if you can, what was the
Speaker 3: mood like, what is it like there? What was it
Speaker 3: like when you left, which I assume would be the
Speaker 3: same as it is today.
Speaker 2: Well, and I'm still in touch with people back in Ukraine.
Speaker 2: The proposed peace agreement or ceasefire or whatever, the twenty
Speaker 2: originally twenty points, I don't know. They whittled it down
Speaker 2: to a few more. I don't know where things are
Speaker 2: going to stand at the end, but it's it's a
Speaker 2: it's a surrender, it's it's it gives Russia all the advantages.
Speaker 2: It benefits Russia all predominantly in all the different points.
Speaker 2: Ukraine gets very little out of it, except for some weak,
Speaker 2: you know, assurances that some sort of Article five would
Speaker 2: be created. But you know, given the fact that they
Speaker 2: already had an agreement and it was broken, the nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety four Budapest Memorandum, and we were supposed to guarantee
Speaker 2: their borders and we didn't, so they're skeptical about any
Speaker 2: of that. And it's you know, the Russians asking for
Speaker 2: things that are outrageous. Land that hasn't been seized yet
Speaker 2: that would have to be just handed over to the Russians,
Speaker 2: Ukrainian land, uh, you know, the they make a very
Speaker 2: kind of weak uh discussion or a point about returning children.
Speaker 2: They they the proposal insists that no war crimes will
Speaker 2: be pursued. That's not going to be acceptable to a
Speaker 2: lot of Ukrainians. I think this is dead our arrival.
Speaker 3: But which do you see is the most egregious. I mean,
Speaker 3: you said the list and it goes on and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the worst, one of the worst one of it
Speaker 2: is well, I mean there are a number of bad
Speaker 2: ones of it. But the worst of all of it,
Speaker 2: I think is giving up land uh and and and
Speaker 2: I mean it's like they're the Russians are in a
Speaker 2: position where they've taken, you know, San Diego, and they say,
Speaker 2: give us all of California because we have we have
Speaker 2: occupied San Diego to the Ukrainians. It's ridiculous. And in
Speaker 2: addition to that, the land that they're talking about that
Speaker 2: they that the Russians want ceded to them are actually
Speaker 2: some of the most deeply entrenched defensive earthworks that the
Speaker 2: Ukrainians have in the country that they've been building for
Speaker 2: over a decade since the twenty fourteen invasion of Crimea
Speaker 2: and Donbass. They've been digging in along a series of
Speaker 2: industrial cities, and if they were to give that up,
Speaker 2: it would be giving up a huge defensive line that
Speaker 2: would just make them susceptible to another attack. So I
Speaker 2: think that's the worst of it, and that's probably that's
Speaker 2: probably the thing that Ukrainians are going to reject the most.
Speaker 2: I mean, Zelensky and his administration can kind of make
Speaker 2: overtures and make statements and try to manage Trump as
Speaker 2: best they can, but if they came back to Ukraine
Speaker 2: with the offer that was presented at the beginning, or frankly,
Speaker 2: really any variation on that, they'll be it'll be rejected
Speaker 2: and Zolensky will be in trouble of being you know, ousted.
Speaker 2: So yeah, they won't accept it.
Speaker 3: Well, you mentioned something that I want to get into
Speaker 3: a little bit too again. I mentioned the visuals which
Speaker 3: are just shocking to Americans because of the viciousness of
Speaker 3: the attacks and how personal they are. And I saw
Speaker 3: a clip I believe it was from a documentary and
Speaker 3: I've forgive me. I might have been on CNN, one
Speaker 3: of the news channels about a city where two hypersonic
Speaker 3: rockets hit, one hitting a bus, which I'm sure you're
Speaker 3: familiar with. It actually brought me to tears. The story
Speaker 3: was about an investigator, a war crimes investigator, who actually
Speaker 3: saved parts of the bus for a day when he
Speaker 3: can finally bring this to light. But not only the
Speaker 3: physical but the emotional damage created. I mean it literally
Speaker 3: brought me to tears. I don't understand what kind of
Speaker 3: mindset brings people to that level of barbarity, to the
Speaker 3: a bus that carried innocent women, children just on a bus.
Speaker 3: Talk to that a little film please.
Speaker 2: Well there, yeah, I mean, you know, one of the
Speaker 2: primary things that they're trying to do is terrorize the
Speaker 2: Ukrainians into submission, and so they're hitting civilian apartment buildings,
Speaker 2: they're hitting the energy sector so that people are frozen
Speaker 2: out or without water to make life unbearable. And then
Speaker 2: their idea is that the Ukrainians will, you know, at
Speaker 2: some point accept, you know, ben the knee and surrender.
Speaker 2: And it's we're a long way off from the Ukrainians
Speaker 2: being anywhere near willing to surrender or give up. Everybody's exhausted.
Speaker 2: The people of Ukraine are exhausted. They want the war
Speaker 2: to stop, they want you know, they want to return
Speaker 2: to their normal lives. But you know, the overwhelming majority
Speaker 2: of Ukrainians still recognize that if you appease a bully,
Speaker 2: he's just going to come back later. And they know
Speaker 2: Russia very well. They've been occupy by Russia for roughly
Speaker 2: five hundred years, five centuries. You know, this is Moscow's
Speaker 2: imperialism in colonizing Ukraine, and they so they know who
Speaker 2: their imperial master is better than anybody. And I most
Speaker 2: of the most Ukrainians that I speak to say that
Speaker 2: as much as they're exhausted, as much as they want
Speaker 2: the war to end in unjust peace is only just,
Speaker 2: is only going to create another war in you know,
Speaker 2: who knows when it's going to be. Who knows what
Speaker 2: the timetable is, but it'll be an inevitability. Two years
Speaker 2: from now, three, five, ten, whatever. The Russians will go back,
Speaker 2: they'll lick their wounds, they'll be accepted back into the
Speaker 2: global community, they will make money and funnel it into
Speaker 2: their armed forces, and then they'll come back for another out.
Speaker 2: So the Ukrainians know this very well, and so they're
Speaker 2: it's it's not just that they're being that they're being stubborn.
Speaker 2: It's it's that they know that a fight that is
Speaker 2: drawn to a close now without real conclusive developments you
Speaker 2: know on the land on the ground or you know,
Speaker 2: within the Kremlin. Uh, it just means that the Russians
Speaker 2: will come again. So I again, I don't see them
Speaker 2: accepting this this plan at all. Bill.
Speaker 3: In almost four years, as you mentioned, so much has changed.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: You mentioned you know, everything changes, but in your mind,
Speaker 3: what what has changed? It can never come back that well,
Speaker 3: now you know, it has to be a different Ukraine.
Speaker 3: I think at this point, in what ways do you
Speaker 3: see that, both positively and negatively.
Speaker 2: Well, in the positive sense, it's united Ukraine. Ukraine is
Speaker 2: a multicultural country, it's multi religious, and it's that's often
Speaker 2: been used by Moscow as a way to divide and
Speaker 2: conquer in Ukraine. That that has changed, it's not completely gone,
Speaker 2: but pretty much all Ukrainians are united in their sense
Speaker 2: of you know, we may have differences. I may be Jewish,
Speaker 2: I may be a Jewish Ukrainian soldier. You may be
Speaker 2: a Muslim Ukrainian soldier. He might be a Catholic, he
Speaker 2: might be a Protestant, he might be an ethnic Roma
Speaker 2: or a Chat or a Pole or take a pick.
Speaker 2: But right now we're all in it together and we're
Speaker 2: all Ukrainians. So that's a positive, and I think it's
Speaker 2: a positive that will last beyond the war. It'll fray,
Speaker 2: it'll you know, people being people will resort to kind
Speaker 2: of you know, cracks and schisms. But I don't see
Speaker 2: the I don't see the lesson of we are stronger
Speaker 2: together than a part going anywhere in Ukraine anytime soon.
Speaker 2: The bad thing that has, you know, is just the
Speaker 2: lost huge chunks of human lives are gone, aside from
Speaker 2: you know, losing loved ones. You know, one of the
Speaker 2: most insidious things about war is that you're on hold.
Speaker 2: Your entire life is unpredictable, constantly unpredictable. Make any plans
Speaker 2: you can't you know. Uh, there's there's so much that's
Speaker 2: out of your control because of the war.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: And I think that sense of destabilization and the lost years,
Speaker 2: especially for children, whole generation will yeah, yeah, they're growing up,
Speaker 2: they're growing up learning in bomb shelters. There's there's schools
Speaker 2: are in bomb shelters.
Speaker 3: So what should Americans take from that? I mean, we
Speaker 3: mentioned tomorrow's Thanksgiving. I have my what's left of my
Speaker 3: small family coming over for some meal and it's wonderful
Speaker 3: and warm and overall we're safe. What do you want
Speaker 3: people to realize that, you know, in the connection between
Speaker 3: I guesst us in Ukraine and again Thanksgiving is a
Speaker 3: traditional American hoppity. Make that clear. But still the mindset
Speaker 3: of family togetherness, safety, we have it. They don't contrasts
Speaker 3: that the black and white of that.
Speaker 2: Well, they still you know, when they do have holidays,
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's their Independence Day or Christmas or
Speaker 2: New Year's you know, they they're they're still they go
Speaker 2: out of their way, uh to try and keep normality.
Speaker 2: So they do celebrate the holidays as as a matter
Speaker 2: of fact, you know, in some ways more than normally
Speaker 2: because they are so you know, any chance that you
Speaker 2: can get to grab some semblance of normality and some
Speaker 2: something that reminds you of a life before there was war,
Speaker 2: they're they're big on that. So they do do their celebrations.
Speaker 2: You know, in terms of Americans being safe and able
Speaker 2: to gather and enjoy the family and food and festivities.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a scary the concept of losing that
Speaker 2: is very scary, and we should be aware that going
Speaker 2: down the road of political violence is you know, it
Speaker 2: might kind of have a visceral like I'd love to
Speaker 2: be unrestrained and do this, but war is a very
Speaker 2: terrible thing to start and it's a very difficult thing
Speaker 2: to stop. And war has ramifications that we in our
Speaker 2: comfortable lives in the West and particularly in America, have
Speaker 2: no concept of. I mean, do you really want to
Speaker 2: you know, if you have to travel to the next
Speaker 2: town over, but you have to go through a checkpoint
Speaker 2: because you know, your vehicle needs to be inspected before
Speaker 2: you can you know, if the if the if the
Speaker 2: Walmart is in another town, you have to go through
Speaker 2: a checkpoint to get into that into that town. Do
Speaker 2: Americans want to live like that? Do Americans want to
Speaker 2: live with the constant threat of some sort of you know,
Speaker 2: bombing or you know what what have you? I mean,
Speaker 2: it's we are very privileged and lucky to live in
Speaker 2: the in the stability of the United States, in America,
Speaker 2: and I have seen an infuriating appreciation for what that means,
Speaker 2: the stability. And I've spent much of my life traveling
Speaker 2: to places where there is you know, instability, and we
Speaker 2: don't want it. We don't we we don't want it.
Speaker 2: You know, be thankful for the peace that we have
Speaker 2: in America, despite our besides, you know, despite our tensions
Speaker 2: and everything that's been going on, it is always better
Speaker 2: to work it out in our houses of government than
Speaker 2: on the streets. And you know, Ukrainians know this very well,
Speaker 2: and they know what it means to the to lose
Speaker 2: the uh, you know, easy comfortable appreciation of these holidays.
Speaker 2: You know, they have to they have to really make
Speaker 2: an effort to to to celebrate these these holidays, and
Speaker 2: they do because it's so important to them. I just
Speaker 2: think as we go into Thanksgiving and the holiday period,
Speaker 2: you know, Americans should reflect on the fact that this,
Speaker 2: this is not a guarantee, none of that, none of
Speaker 2: the ease and comfort of being able to get, you know,
Speaker 2: gather with your loved ones and celebrate. That's there's no
Speaker 2: guarantee of that. And and it's uh, it's it's something
Speaker 2: I think should be appreciated more. And I urge Americans
Speaker 2: to to think about the fact that, you know, we're
Speaker 2: lucky to live the country at peace.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you made that point. In a little
Speaker 3: bit down the road, Well, I want to get your
Speaker 3: perspective of what's happening here. I'm sure you're aware of
Speaker 3: with just recently with the dismissal of charges against Komi,
Speaker 3: that the whole retribution thing. Anyway, we can get to
Speaker 3: that eventually. I want to stay a little bit more
Speaker 3: on topic here directly with Ukraine, UH and UH. We
Speaker 3: we mentioned in the in the beginning, and we talked
Speaker 3: a little bit about the points being made so heavily
Speaker 3: in favor of Russia. Yet Ukraine and Ukrainians seem to
Speaker 3: align much more closely with American ideals. Yet this administration
Speaker 3: seems to continually favor Russia. Do you have any point
Speaker 3: of view as to why that might be happening. What's
Speaker 3: your perspective?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's obvious that the Russians have infiltrated
Speaker 2: the government. I mean, they're they're inside our body politic
Speaker 2: not just in terms of our politicians, you know, even
Speaker 2: and including in the oval, in the sense that you know, uh,
Speaker 2: the President of the United States believes Vladimir Putin more
Speaker 2: than he believes his own intelligence agencies. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: that right. There is an indication that Moscow is deep
Speaker 2: inside our our our society, our civil society, our political society,
Speaker 2: you know, not not to mention our defense security intelligence.
Speaker 2: They've been meticulous about it, and they're deep, deep, deep inside,
Speaker 2: and that should give us all, you know, real serious
Speaker 2: cause for concern. And uh, you know, I think that
Speaker 2: there are people in the Trump administration, Trump himself included,
Speaker 2: you know, sentment perhaps setting the example is is that
Speaker 2: you know, it's it is if it's if it's if
Speaker 2: it is beneficial to them transactionally, they are perfectly happy
Speaker 2: to work with people like Vladimir Putin, So all sins
Speaker 2: are forgiven as long as they start that oil and
Speaker 2: that natural gas flowing again or they you know, Putin
Speaker 2: praises Trump as as was just recently revealed in this
Speaker 2: conversation with Steve Whitgoff, who you know clearly is in
Speaker 2: way over his head as a as a representative to
Speaker 2: the Kremlin. But you know that there was this leaked,
Speaker 2: you know, phone call between him and a Russian aid
Speaker 2: to Putin saying, you know, just flatter him, just going
Speaker 2: there and flatter them, Flatter, flatter Trump, tell him you
Speaker 2: he's a great peacemaker, and tell them all the things
Speaker 2: he wants to hear, and you know, will will get
Speaker 2: a plan through that is beneficial for Russia. I mean,
Speaker 2: it is. It is painfully clear that Moscow is deep
Speaker 2: inside of our society. Are our power elite. And I'm
Speaker 2: not just saying politicians there's they're inside the media, They're
Speaker 2: inside you know, political parties, not just you know, members
Speaker 2: who are actually political power, the civil society. They've been
Speaker 2: at this for quite some time and they're they're very
Speaker 2: very good at it. They don't have to invest in
Speaker 2: aircraft carriers when they can manipulate foreign policy and make
Speaker 2: the White House dance to its tune, which is exactly
Speaker 2: what they're doing. I mean, the team, the interlocertors with
Speaker 2: the teams in Russia are a joke. Steve Whitkoff has
Speaker 2: no idea what he's doing, you know, you know, Marco
Speaker 2: Rubio has always been kind of hawkish about the Russians,
Speaker 2: but he's not a Russia expert. They you know, where
Speaker 2: are the guys that have put in twenty thirty years,
Speaker 2: whether or not in academia, or whether or not in
Speaker 2: diplomatic circles, who are used to dealing with the Russians
Speaker 2: and you the Russians are very very difficult adversaries on
Speaker 2: the diplomatic stage, and we just don't have anybody that
Speaker 2: I'm aware of on our team that has any depth
Speaker 2: of knowledge of the conflict or speaks the language, or
Speaker 2: you know, spent years living in the former Soviet Union
Speaker 2: or working in the former Soviet Union and understand where
Speaker 2: the you know, where Moscow comes from. None of that,
Speaker 2: none of that, and and they're just getting It's it's
Speaker 2: like watching a mouse. It's like watching a cat play
Speaker 2: with a mouse, and you just it's embarrassing to watch
Speaker 2: the American side of things because they're completely outclassed.
Speaker 3: What do we do about that? Film, What can we
Speaker 3: do about that?
Speaker 2: We need to hire people back into the State Department,
Speaker 2: into the Pentagon, into the intelligence community that are Russia experts.
Speaker 2: You know, we we spent a lot of time fixating
Speaker 2: on experts from you know, the Islamic world or the
Speaker 2: Arabic world, and we had a decent what's called a
Speaker 2: Russia desk, it both depending on and at the State Department.
Speaker 2: But what happened was in Trump's first term because well,
Speaker 2: for one reason or another, the the accepted or the
Speaker 2: kind of the prevailing idea is that because of the
Speaker 2: whole Russia interference scandal that marred his election in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: that he took out revenge and basically purged the Russia desk,
Speaker 2: both in the Pentagon and in the State Department. And
Speaker 2: apparently Biden didn't rectify that and rehire people back, but
Speaker 2: even if he did, Trump would have probably gotten rid
Speaker 2: of them. Again. We just are our defenses against Russia
Speaker 2: have been willfully decimated for a variety of reasons. You know,
Speaker 2: I think about the announcement that Hexath Pete Hexath made
Speaker 2: unilaterally and without you know, any kind of discussion anywhere,
Speaker 2: you know, anywhere in the Senate or the Congress, that
Speaker 2: they were going to switch off the program that was
Speaker 2: searching for Russian bots and disinformation campaigns. I mean, why
Speaker 2: do that? What benefit is there to that. The Russians,
Speaker 2: for a variety of reasons, again, as I say, have
Speaker 2: either infiltrated into our body politic into our government, or
Speaker 2: another form of infiltration is just having a fellow what's
Speaker 2: called a fellow traveler. They believe in the world and
Speaker 2: how the world should function in a similar way, and
Speaker 2: that is to say, might makes right and the world
Speaker 2: should be divvied up into zones of control that obviously,
Speaker 2: you know, Europe would fall under Russia's dominion, you know,
Speaker 2: the Americas would be the USA, and then Asia would
Speaker 2: be you know, a part of you know, China's little
Speaker 2: sphere of influence. And it's just it's old eighteenth century,
Speaker 2: nineteenth century thinking where everything is a game of risk,
Speaker 2: and the Russians really believe that, and they find common
Speaker 2: they find you know, fellow travelers in America. There are
Speaker 2: a lot of Americans who also believe that the rule
Speaker 2: of law or that you know, soft power can be
Speaker 2: as influential as you know, a carrier fleet that you
Speaker 2: know heading off wars and that word. And it's a
Speaker 2: very you know, they have a very simplistic view of
Speaker 2: how the world works. And basically it just is I'm big,
Speaker 2: you're small. You do what I tell you what to do,
Speaker 2: and you know not to put on rose colored glasses.
Speaker 2: Of course, that's oftentimes the way the world does work.
Speaker 2: But there are there are times when we get together,
Speaker 2: we sit down, we hash things out, and we come
Speaker 2: to an agreement and you know, abide by it. And
Speaker 2: the Russians don't see the globe that way, and they
Speaker 2: find people in America who likewise don't see the world
Speaker 2: the same way, and they find common cause.
Speaker 3: So seeing they have one running the country that seems
Speaker 3: to think that.
Speaker 2: You know JD. Vans as well, or you know, behind
Speaker 2: the scenes, people like Mike Flynn or Steve Bannon. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's all just if you if we're big and you're small,
Speaker 2: then you do what we tell you. Sovereign nation states
Speaker 2: are you know, fictitious. Even as much, you know, as
Speaker 2: much as they like to talk about borders, you know,
Speaker 2: they care, they care about borders when it's our border,
Speaker 2: the other countries' borders, they're they're perfectly happy to pillage
Speaker 2: what everything can get their hands on. So, you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's a very cynical view of the world. The
Speaker 2: Russians habit in spades. It's kind of how they're structured,
Speaker 2: and they have they have plenty of people in America
Speaker 2: who feel the same way. So, you know, we we
Speaker 2: we got to do a lot of work in our
Speaker 2: State Department and in our soft power and in the
Speaker 2: in the other intelligence and security communities, including at the Pentagon.
Speaker 2: I mean, I always I always remember, you know, Millie
Speaker 2: standing up there and being pumped, you know, being attacked
Speaker 2: by the MAGA representatives in Congress about why he read
Speaker 2: things like you know, Mao or the you know, the
Speaker 2: Communist Manifesto, And he said, because I want to learn.
Speaker 2: I want to be an knowledgeable warrior. I want to
Speaker 2: know who my enemy is. I want to know about
Speaker 2: different perspectives. I want to be an intelligence you know,
Speaker 2: a kind of you know, intelligent warrior. And they they
Speaker 2: they laughed at him for it. You know, there was
Speaker 2: this there was this sense of like, you know, and
Speaker 2: then and then you know, years later you see Hank
Speaker 2: Seth walking up and down in front of the stage,
Speaker 2: in front of command officers saying, yeah, our job is
Speaker 2: to break things and kill people. Well, no, that's not
Speaker 2: strictly that that is not, strictly speaking, all that the
Speaker 2: United States military does, and that that simplistic view of
Speaker 2: it is has been really damaging. So I'm hoping we
Speaker 2: can we can rectify that in State. We need we
Speaker 2: need better people who know, you know, the region when
Speaker 2: it comes to world Russia and the world in general.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean that you know, there's probably some
Speaker 2: uh you know, uh guys that are that are hanging
Speaker 2: on from the you know, the Muslim world, whether that's
Speaker 2: North Africa or the subcontinent or you know, the Middle East.
Speaker 2: But we have yeah, and I'm sure there's a robust
Speaker 2: China desk, but they've absolutely withdrawn from Europe and they've
Speaker 2: kneecapped our expertise. And when it comes to the former
Speaker 2: Soviet Union in Russia in particular, so it's it's there's
Speaker 2: the fact that our point men on this round of
Speaker 2: whatever it is, this peace process they're trying to force
Speaker 2: into existence, that the will into existence. The fact that
Speaker 2: none of them are people who have you know, spent
Speaker 2: time in the former Soviet Union, or who you know,
Speaker 2: as I say, speak the language, or they're they're amateurs.
Speaker 2: They're amateurs, and they're going up against some of the
Speaker 2: most ruthless and adept foreign diplomatic core in the world.
Speaker 2: The Russians are notoriously good at maneuvering diplomatically and making
Speaker 2: you dance to their tune, you know, the first and
Speaker 2: they openly admit it. You know that that one of
Speaker 2: their primary tactics is to ask for way, way, way, way,
Speaker 2: way too much, and then to when you backtrack then
Speaker 2: you seem reasonable. Well, what they've done is they've they've
Speaker 2: given this twenty eight and let's make no mistake about it.
Speaker 2: It's clear that it was given to the US side.
Speaker 2: It was not a creation of their own. It was
Speaker 2: it was given to them, and it's the Russia's wish list.
Speaker 2: And instead of saying, well, this is ridiculous, we're not
Speaker 2: going to do that, and instead of calling up the
Speaker 2: Europeans and the Ukrainians and saying, hey, let's look at
Speaker 2: this and provide a united front with a counter offer,
Speaker 2: none of that was done. All they did was just
Speaker 2: turn right around, shoving in Ukraine's space and say you
Speaker 2: have to sign this otherwise you know we're going to
Speaker 2: break with you. And that puts Ukraine in an unwinnable
Speaker 2: position because they need America. But they you know this, this,
Speaker 2: this peace proposal is only going to lead to another
Speaker 2: war and they know it. So what to do? What
Speaker 2: for them to do?
Speaker 3: Well a great segue when I ask one last question,
Speaker 3: will take a quick break and come back with more.
Speaker 3: But Phil, in a perfect world, at least for Ukraine,
Speaker 3: Russia leaves, everything goes back to normal, They take no territory,
Speaker 3: they return to children a right. That's the perfect world.
Speaker 3: Short of that, what will be acceptable to Ukraine to
Speaker 3: end this war?
Speaker 2: I think I think there is a general acceptance. The
Speaker 2: territories that were taken in twenty fourteen were now over
Speaker 2: a decade. The children who were ten are now twenty,
Speaker 2: and they have grown up in a land where they
Speaker 2: are consistently told they are not Ukrainian, they're Russian. There's
Speaker 2: some sector of Ukrainian society that I think would say, Okay,
Speaker 2: we can let those guys go. CRIMEA is a big,
Speaker 2: big problem because there's there's an indigenous people's there that
Speaker 2: are you know, that that are pro Ukrainian, that would
Speaker 2: prefer to be part of Ukraine. And so what do
Speaker 2: you do about them? What do you do about all
Speaker 2: the people who are inside occupied territories that would if
Speaker 2: they could, you know, cross the line and go and
Speaker 2: live in Ukraine, what do you do about them? It's
Speaker 2: it's it's just it's it's gonna be a longer, uh war.
Speaker 2: This isn't ending anytime soon. They I think would accept
Speaker 2: those things, as they say, losing Dun, losing Doniansky and
Speaker 2: Lukansk crimea being a problem. They certainly would not accept
Speaker 2: seeding territory that hasn't been won by the Russians. They're
Speaker 2: they're going to demand the children are returned, which Russia
Speaker 2: apparently does seem to be open to. But it's that's
Speaker 2: you know, uh, well it's a penny short and a
Speaker 2: week late. Uh. And you know, and then also you know,
Speaker 2: not pursuing war crimes. That's not gonna sit well. The
Speaker 2: fact that uh, you know, Russia walks away from this,
Speaker 2: uh returning to and you know, returning to the G
Speaker 2: eight and you know, getting potentially returning to the G
Speaker 2: eight and getting the sanctions lifted from them. That's you know,
Speaker 2: that's a bitter pill for them to swallow, but that's
Speaker 2: outside of their borders. They're going to be for us
Speaker 2: straighted with the idea that you know, Moscow is the
Speaker 2: one who's going to tell them what alliance they can
Speaker 2: have and whatnot, and a limitation on their armed forces
Speaker 2: is not going to be acceptable to them as well.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a long way so many ways. It's
Speaker 2: a non starter in so many different ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Phillow, want to take a break when to
Speaker 1: come back, get if you will a little bit personally,
Speaker 1: I want to know how you've changed over the course
Speaker 1: of nearly four years from what you were when you
Speaker 1: first went into where you are now.
Speaker 3: So if you'd be kind enough to share that with us,
Speaker 3: I think it would be interesting. I would certainly let
Speaker 3: you know because you're there. I'm always very much you know.
Speaker 3: It's anybody can talk a good game, it's another thing
Speaker 3: to live it, and you've been doing exactly that. And
Speaker 3: we'll do that and more and we come back. This
Speaker 3: is being Frank the Intelligent Conversation Podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker 3: Frank Lebona. Will be back with more right after these
Speaker 3: brief commercial messages, don't go anywhere yet. This is great,
Speaker 3: be right back.
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Speaker 3: Welcome back to Being Frank, the Intelligent Conversation podcast. Thanks
Speaker 3: for sticking with us. I'm your hosts, Frank Ubono and
Speaker 3: as always our engineer as the mailman, mister Neil Richter.
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Speaker 3: We're back with our very special guest. He's been covering
Speaker 3: the Russia Ukraine War from the very beginning and he
Speaker 3: continues to do so. He's been our guest before, and
Speaker 3: we welcome him back, mister phil Ititner. Phil, I tease
Speaker 3: the question before the break, and I'd really like to know,
Speaker 3: how have you changed. It's been almost four really long years.
Speaker 3: You get back on occasion, but you're there most of
Speaker 3: the time, and you've literally lived through virtually all of it.
Speaker 3: How has that changed?
Speaker 2: Well? I mean I had before the war started, I
Speaker 2: was actually trying to kind of transition out of doing
Speaker 2: news into doing kind of more back to what they
Speaker 2: call factual television or documentaries or this kind of thing.
Speaker 2: And you know, and I've been covering wars for a
Speaker 2: quarter century, you know, roughly twenty five years, and really
Speaker 2: didn't had no desire to cover another war. And you know,
Speaker 2: but I had been coming to Ukraine for many, many
Speaker 2: years and knew the cost and knew the importance of
Speaker 2: this war and the ramifications of what the result of
Speaker 2: this war will be, and I just I felt the
Speaker 2: obligation to go and to cover it. Now, you know,
Speaker 2: I was. I was not expecting it to be you know, now,
Speaker 2: going into four years, I was hoping that it would
Speaker 2: be a shorter period of time. I didn't think it
Speaker 2: was going to happen you know, in a matter of weeks.
Speaker 2: But I was more hopeful that that, you know, Russia's
Speaker 2: disastrous decision to come and do this would be would
Speaker 2: be shown to be the folly that it is. But
Speaker 2: that was not the case. And it's just, uh, it's
Speaker 2: it reminds me of my of my in many ways,
Speaker 2: it reminds me of my days as a deputy bureau
Speaker 2: chief for CBS News and Baghdad when it's just groundhog Day.
Speaker 2: It's it's just the same thing over and over and
Speaker 2: over and over again. And it's exhausting in that sense,
Speaker 2: because I would love to live a much more vibrant life.
Speaker 2: I would love to you know, being back in the States,
Speaker 2: it's it's great to drive around and you know, you
Speaker 2: just have the liberty and the and the realization that
Speaker 2: your course of the day, your course of your life,
Speaker 2: is in your hands. And sadly, unfortunately, one of the facts,
Speaker 2: as I've mentioned about war, is that it steals your agency,
Speaker 2: it steals away your the control that you have over
Speaker 2: your life. Now, I made I made the decision to
Speaker 2: do this on my own. I'm not Ukrainian. I don't
Speaker 2: have to be there, so you know, it's even more
Speaker 2: awful for them. But then I think about them, and
Speaker 2: I think about the fact that they are sacrificing so
Speaker 2: much for our benefit that we don't even properly recognize.
Speaker 2: We are always demanding the Ukrainians are you know, expressed
Speaker 2: their thank for thanks for our support. Well, you know,
Speaker 2: I see it slightly different in that I think we
Speaker 2: should be thanking Ukrainians as well. It's you know, it's
Speaker 2: not exclusively you know, no sum binary thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: we can, we can both be thankful for one another.
Speaker 2: But Ukrainians are stopping one of the most dangerous regimes
Speaker 2: on the planet, and one in a country that has
Speaker 2: a history of imperial aggression to it, not only to
Speaker 2: its neighbors, to a bit further abroad, a nation that
Speaker 2: sees the British, the Anglo American Alliance and moreover, the
Speaker 2: European American Alliance has a direct threat to them and
Speaker 2: is doing everything that they possibly can to divide us
Speaker 2: in many ways successfully. But they you know, look, of course,
Speaker 2: they don't see themselves this way. They see themselves as
Speaker 2: defending their way of life and their perspective on how
Speaker 2: you know, like power dynamics and societies and cultures should be.
Speaker 2: And they see our way of life as a threat
Speaker 2: to them, and they have this long history of invasions,
Speaker 2: so they're constantly paranoid about that. But we have to
Speaker 2: recognize that we really drop the ball at the end
Speaker 2: of the Soviet Union. We we thought, we were convinced
Speaker 2: that because we had won the Cold War, that it
Speaker 2: would be our systems that would be going east, and
Speaker 2: so a judiciary and the rule of law, democracy and
Speaker 2: one man, one vote and ballots and you know, you know,
Speaker 2: fighting corruption and all the rest of it. And what
Speaker 2: has actually happened because we did not handle that the
Speaker 2: collapse and the devastation of what the collapse of the
Speaker 2: Soviet Union meant to Russians into the power in Moscow
Speaker 2: in particular, we didn't handle that well at all in
Speaker 2: the nineties, and so we ended up with a man
Speaker 2: like Vladimir Putin who is deeply disgruntled about the collapse
Speaker 2: of the Soviet Union and who sees Russia as a
Speaker 2: great imperial power that must restore its empire to be
Speaker 2: what it truly greatly is, and that is this, you know,
Speaker 2: this massive global power that can rival China or the
Speaker 2: United States or whatever. And it's just it's you know,
Speaker 2: if they lose in Ukraine, they will no longer be
Speaker 2: an empire. Their sense of self as an empire will disappear,
Speaker 2: and that will be devastating for them. And so Putin
Speaker 2: is trying to, in his own way, I guess, make
Speaker 2: Russia great again. You know, it's a trying to hearken
Speaker 2: back to a prior epoch, a prior period in their
Speaker 2: history which is never coming back. And if the Russians,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, if the Ukrainians with Western assistants and make
Speaker 2: sure that they stay sovereign, and Russia has to instead
Speaker 2: of seeing itself as an empire, look into the mirror
Speaker 2: and say, well, if we're not an empire, who are
Speaker 2: we as a nation? As a nation state, not an
Speaker 2: imperial nation state, but just a nation Russia. And that's
Speaker 2: going to demand of them a lot of changes that
Speaker 2: they're reluctant to do, and they have historically been reluctant
Speaker 2: to do. I mean this goes back to the early
Speaker 2: eight you know, eighteen hundreds and after the Napoleonic Wars,
Speaker 2: and then a bunch of Russian soldiers came back to
Speaker 2: Saint Petersburg and said, we see how life is on
Speaker 2: the other side with the Europeans and we want that too,
Speaker 2: and they were shot down in the snow. And that's
Speaker 2: the Decembrist movement of I think it's eighteen forty or
Speaker 2: something like that. This is not new. Russia has known
Speaker 2: for a very long time that it has some intrinsic
Speaker 2: problems that it needs to fix. And the hawks in
Speaker 2: Russia think that fixing Russia means restoring it to its
Speaker 2: imperial status, and I you know, argue that it's the opposite, actually,
Speaker 2: that they need to be dissuaded of the concept. And
Speaker 2: if we can do that, then Russia stops being a
Speaker 2: malign actor, or at least it is, you know, significantly
Speaker 2: decreased that they're a malign actor on and hopefully we
Speaker 2: get to a place where we can normalize relations with Russia.
Speaker 2: Because as long as this continues, this desire to be
Speaker 2: restored to their great imperial might, they are going to
Speaker 2: undermine civil societies throughout the West. They are going to
Speaker 2: threaten their neighbors, they are going to do invasions and
Speaker 2: you know, uh back violent terrorist groups and separatist groups
Speaker 2: and all in an effort to keep everybody else in
Speaker 2: the world on their back foot so that Russia can
Speaker 2: continue to grow and prosper. I mean, they're just, uh,
Speaker 2: this is all part of a restoration of Russia as
Speaker 2: a great imperial power in not only Putin's eyes, but
Speaker 2: in a huge chunk of the Russian population who were
Speaker 2: humiliated at the end of the Cold War and who
Speaker 2: also see the decadent West as this you know threat
Speaker 2: where you know they're gonna, they're gonna you know, well,
Speaker 2: there's all sorts of things about the West that they
Speaker 2: have demonized and you know, insists that it's decadent, in
Speaker 2: hypocritical and all the rest of it. So we're at
Speaker 2: an inflection point. The front the front line is Ukraine,
Speaker 2: but the ramifications of whatever happens in Ukraine at the
Speaker 2: end of it all is going to be a globe.
Speaker 2: There'll be a global reaction to it because not least
Speaker 2: of which, aside from all the things that I've pointed
Speaker 2: out with the aspirations that Moscow has, it's also going
Speaker 2: to send a very clear message to China that the
Speaker 2: West doesn't have the backbone to maybe stand up for Taiwan,
Speaker 2: or it sends a message to any country in the
Speaker 2: world that has beef with a neighbor that if you
Speaker 2: have a nuke the West, you know, that's your best
Speaker 2: form of Garrett, you know, that's your best form of
Speaker 2: protection is to get new because clearly, if you have one,
Speaker 2: the West will We'll just let you do whatever you want.
Speaker 2: So all of this is going to change the world
Speaker 2: of our children, our grandchildren, on and on down the way.
Speaker 2: If Ukraine's sovereignty is stolen away from it and Russia
Speaker 2: restores itself as an imperial power, the repercussions of that
Speaker 2: and the reaction to that of other great nation states
Speaker 2: or just nation states in general, will revert to the
Speaker 2: old rule of might makes right, which is so much
Speaker 2: of what we tried to avoid post World War Two.
Speaker 2: And so, you know, we either have to back the
Speaker 2: Ukrainians or we go back to a world where it's
Speaker 2: just it's just the law of the jungle.
Speaker 3: Let's tell people how they can get more of phil
Speaker 3: in or you discuss these topics well relative to Ukraine
Speaker 3: Russia on your podcast. Tell us a little bit about it,
Speaker 3: what it's called, where people can find it, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Please, it's just it's on my channel. But we call
Speaker 2: the program that we're producing on the edge. We've also
Speaker 2: set up a separate channel just for the episodes. It
Speaker 2: goes for about an hour. We try and do it weekly.
Speaker 2: We have a couple of episodes that we recorded before
Speaker 2: I left, but there might be a couple of gaps
Speaker 2: coming up, but we we make it a point to
Speaker 2: try and regularly publish an episode again about an hour long,
Speaker 2: talking to you know, platforming Ukrainian voices as much as
Speaker 2: we possibly can, whether or not that's a politician or
Speaker 2: a soldier, an artist or just your average Joe. And
Speaker 2: we also talk to people who may not be Ukrainian,
Speaker 2: but they have a perspective or you know, are involved
Speaker 2: in the in the in the effort, in your grain
Speaker 2: in some unique way, or they have a unique perspective,
Speaker 2: so well we'll put them on as well. Comes out
Speaker 2: every Sunday eight pm local in Kiev, which I believe
Speaker 2: is noon in on the East Coast in the United States.
Speaker 2: And you can figure it out, you know what where
Speaker 2: debuts in your part of the world, just based on
Speaker 2: the fact that we put it out at eight pm.
Speaker 2: Do you have time every Sunday? Right?
Speaker 3: And you have a Facebook page that's public and people
Speaker 3: can find a link for the for the podcast on
Speaker 3: your Facebook page. Phil Ititner right as well as you
Speaker 3: and I communicate off of one of the upsides of Facebook,
Speaker 3: it keeps us connected. Really, Phil, again, I want to
Speaker 3: thank you so much. I know how busy you must
Speaker 3: be and a great demand with everything that's going down,
Speaker 3: people want your expertise. You have a very unique perspective.
Speaker 3: As I said, it's easy to talk about it behind
Speaker 3: a microphone, you're actually there, so in bringing that to
Speaker 3: us is invaluable. I want to thank you, my friend
Speaker 3: and really proud to call you my friend. Thank you,
Speaker 3: and of course always stay safe. That's always my first question,
Speaker 3: Where are you and are you safe? So thank you
Speaker 3: once again for your intelligent conversation. You know, of course
Speaker 3: we offer special thanks to our listeners who take time
Speaker 3: to give us a voice in their lives. We offer
Speaker 3: a fresh topic, just like Phil just about every week
Speaker 3: catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts
Speaker 3: they close, Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Speaker and all the rest.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I'm going to leave you always with two little extra things,
Speaker 3: a slogan that's kind of relative to what we're talking about,
Speaker 3: and then some great music. First, the slogan, and it
Speaker 3: comes from Abraham Lincoln, one of the great Americans, one
Speaker 3: of the great human beings. Those who deny freedom to
Speaker 3: others deserve it, not for themselves. I think that kind
Speaker 3: of makes a strong point. And you know, as I mentioned,
Speaker 3: tomorrow is Thanksgiving. I hope every buddy is able to
Speaker 3: bask in the blow of good food, family and friends.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's hard, especially in these days, to see the light.
Speaker 3: But folks, if you look for it, it's there, and
Speaker 3: look for it in the simple things, and remember those
Speaker 3: who have gone before. I know I always take a
Speaker 3: moment at the table to think of family and friends.
Speaker 3: We're not actively at the table, but they're in our hearts.
Speaker 3: And with that in mind, I want to leave you
Speaker 3: something from a really good friend who has moved on
Speaker 3: but will always be with us through his music and
Speaker 3: through his spirit, mister Tim Omdaniu, with an original written
Speaker 3: by Chi Johan and performed by Tim and his band.
Speaker 3: This is a central line for our engineer, the Mailman.
Speaker 3: I'll be beating some turkey tomorrow, mister Neil Richter. I'm
Speaker 3: your host, Frank Lebono, and we hope to have you
Speaker 3: join us on the next being Frank. We're the only
Speaker 3: way to be is Frank.
Speaker 4: Thanks everyone.
Speaker 6: Out to California.
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Speaker 2: On the trans contain.
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Speaker 6: You don't know me, ben here all alone, you.
Speaker 8: Don't know me.
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Speaker 4: No one will ever know.
Speaker 6: You don't know me, you don't know my name, you
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