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Speaker 2: Oh gez, folks, it's showtime.
Speaker 3: People say good mighty to see this movie.
Speaker 4: When they go out to a theater, they want clod sodas,
Speaker 4: hot popcorn in.
Speaker 5: No monsters in the projection Booth.
Speaker 1: Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring.
Speaker 6: Cut it off, ud, Welcome to the Projection Booth.
Speaker 1: I'm your host. Mike White joined me once again as MS.
Speaker 1: Susan Tekla Kuruglinska.
Speaker 7: Hey, I'm excited to discuss the most accurate depiction of
Speaker 7: academia on film.
Speaker 1: Also back in the booth is MS Beth Akamando.
Speaker 8: Yes, and I am happy to talk about cannibalism anytime,
Speaker 8: because anytime I see a cannabis sign, I'm always thinking
Speaker 8: it says cannibal and then I'm disappointed.
Speaker 1: We continue Shocked Over twenty twenty five with a look
Speaker 1: at Julia Decornow's twenty sixteen film Raw The film stars
Speaker 1: Garan's Marilier as Justine, a freshman at a veterinary school.
Speaker 1: How do you know she's a vegetarian? Wait five minutes.
Speaker 1: She will tell you. When she's forced to eat a
Speaker 1: rabbit kidney, or maybe when she's doused with blood, she
Speaker 1: begins to feel strange cravings that lead to some interesting places.
Speaker 1: We will be discussing that and more as we go
Speaker 1: through things. So if you don't on anything ruin, please
Speaker 1: turn off the show and come back after you've seen
Speaker 1: the film. We will still be here. Susan, when was
Speaker 1: the first time you saw raw and what did you think?
Speaker 7: I know I saw it right when it came out,
Speaker 7: because I remember there was a spate of great horror
Speaker 7: movies where were a Black Coat's Daughter?
Speaker 8: Like?
Speaker 9: There was a few things to add, like, I don't
Speaker 9: remember if I saw it.
Speaker 7: I don't remember where I sat, but I know I
Speaker 7: saw it when it came out and hadn't really watched
Speaker 7: it since, and so it was great. I loved it
Speaker 7: the first time, and it was I watched it twice
Speaker 7: before this and loved it absolutely.
Speaker 9: I can watch it right now after the we're done talking,
Speaker 9: I'll watch it. I could watch it again.
Speaker 1: I loved it, and Beth, how about yourself.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I saw it when it first came out. I
Speaker 8: believe sadly I saw it on a screener instead of
Speaker 8: in a theater for the first time, but I immediately
Speaker 8: fell in love with it, and in fact, it inspired
Speaker 8: me to do an entire podcast on what I called
Speaker 8: gourmet cannibal films. So these are films in which not
Speaker 8: just the craft of filmmaking is refined, but the actual
Speaker 8: eating of human flesh is not merely done for gore
Speaker 8: and horror effect. Yeah, I had to switch podcasts at
Speaker 8: the last minute, and I had just seen Raw, and
Speaker 8: I said, I'm going to talk to this friend of
Speaker 8: mine who's a chef and who also loves cannibal films,
Speaker 8: and he prepped food while we did the interview, so
Speaker 8: you got to hear him chopping up stuff, and you
Speaker 8: talked about food preparation and how that kind of played
Speaker 8: into these gourmet cannibal films. So films I included Raw
Speaker 8: on that, but also the cook, the thief, his wife
Speaker 8: and her lover ravenous films where it was not just
Speaker 8: like ripping into human flesh. So I thought it was fabulous.
Speaker 8: And I do enjoy cannibal films. I think they really
Speaker 8: get to an interesting level of horror.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't remember the first time I saw this.
Speaker 1: I know I didn't see that theater. I remember probably
Speaker 1: renting it or maybe illegally downloading it at some point
Speaker 1: and just absolutely loved it. I haven't gone back to
Speaker 1: it for I guess nine years in the introm but
Speaker 1: it really made an impression and I was really glad
Speaker 1: to be able to program this one this month. And
Speaker 1: I'm glad that I have you two on here because
Speaker 1: last week we talked about In My Skin, and both
Speaker 1: my co hosts were dudes, and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: there's nothing better than talking about, you know, women coming
Speaker 1: to terms with their own bodies and gaining their power
Speaker 1: and all of these things with three guys just hanging
Speaker 1: out on microphone. So I'm glad to be in the
Speaker 1: minority this week.
Speaker 7: When you think of cannibals, it almost seems goofy. I
Speaker 7: actually think of Bugs, Bundy, like you always said that
Speaker 7: the cartoons. It's such a cartoonish kind of thing, almost humorous,
Speaker 7: it seemed, And like when I tell people who do
Speaker 7: not know this movie, I mentioned to a couple of
Speaker 7: people I was gonna be talking about this, they immediately
Speaker 7: roll their eyes because it just sounds really corny, and
Speaker 7: I don't know, but it's just yeah, like I I
Speaker 7: really respect that you can wrestle with this topic and
Speaker 7: make it a really beautiful movie.
Speaker 9: It's really really a feat to pull off well.
Speaker 1: It's so well shot and looks so good, and just
Speaker 1: the story structure itself is so well put together. I mean,
Speaker 1: I forgot all about that opening shot with the car
Speaker 1: coming down the road and that we see that accident
Speaker 1: happen right off the bat, and just how that plays
Speaker 1: into later on in the film. And when you see
Speaker 1: Justine being driven to school for the first time and
Speaker 1: she's going down a road very much like that, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: is this the car accident we saw earlier? And then
Speaker 1: it just kind of puts this idea in your mind
Speaker 1: from the very beginning, that there is danger in the
Speaker 1: world and you don't know when that danger is going
Speaker 1: to actually happen. It could have been in the past,
Speaker 1: it could be in the future. We don't know exactly
Speaker 1: what's happening. And then that she's being driven to school
Speaker 1: and her room gets busted open by a guy, ironically enough,
Speaker 1: holding a ski pole, and I think that's the guy
Speaker 1: who's going to be her roommate pretty soon. And yeah,
Speaker 1: just like all of these things where you get little
Speaker 1: bits and pieces that are going to come back, Like
Speaker 1: I think the first time you see her sister Alexia,
Speaker 1: she's flipping her the bird, and I'm like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: that finger's going to be due for some interesting things
Speaker 1: later on in this film.
Speaker 8: I love films that don't tell you everything up front.
Speaker 8: There's so many movies where you watch the first ten
Speaker 8: minutes and you pretty much know everything that's going to happen.
Speaker 8: And what she does is she leaves you with this ambiguity,
Speaker 8: and it's intriguing, and it also respects our intelligence, saying
Speaker 8: that we are capable of piecing things together, and also
Speaker 8: that we're capable of not being frustrated by not knowing
Speaker 8: everything about the characters or about what it's going to be.
Speaker 8: She doesn't define the genre right away or who these
Speaker 8: people are, or what this first scene we see is
Speaker 8: all about. And I just really appreciate that in filmmaking
Speaker 8: because I don't want to be talked down to, and
Speaker 8: she never does.
Speaker 9: That, and because it's got those layers.
Speaker 7: It's really fun to rewatch it, to watch it like
Speaker 7: twice in a row, because then you go back and
Speaker 7: you see these little bits of dialogue detail that just
Speaker 7: she obviously really thought to place perfectly in these perfect
Speaker 7: little places that would lead to something else, like a
Speaker 7: lot of little comments between the sisters where Alex is
Speaker 7: going up, I helped you when I just shove that
Speaker 7: kidney down your throat and she's no, you didn't, and
Speaker 7: you're just like, it's such a little casual bit of dialogue,
Speaker 7: but it's so significant, like after you've you know how
Speaker 7: this all works out well.
Speaker 8: And also with the vegetarian reference, you're vegetarian too, and
Speaker 8: she's no, I'm not. Have you not been paying attention? No?
Speaker 8: And there's lovely visual cues, like you mentioned the flipping
Speaker 8: off of the finger, and it's not just what happens
Speaker 8: to that finger, but it's also that almost end image
Speaker 8: when in the prison where you get this reflection and
Speaker 8: again they're like making this joke with which is the
Speaker 8: missing finger the one she can flip you off with the.
Speaker 1: Look of this film is so good. I love the
Speaker 1: veterinary school that she goes to, which just has this
Speaker 1: brutalist architecture and is the strangest looking veterinary school ever.
Speaker 1: Like you said, like she won't just explain something, and
Speaker 1: she doesn't explain it to us, and she doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: explain it to Justine either. Justina is a great person
Speaker 1: for us to be following because she is as clueless
Speaker 1: as we are when it comes to so many of
Speaker 1: these things, like being taken from her dorm room and
Speaker 1: thrown out into the hall. And then you get that
Speaker 1: cut to all of the students that are crawling up
Speaker 1: over these mattresses and crawling through these corridors and just
Speaker 1: this slow hand and nive crawl that they're doing, and
Speaker 1: you're like, what the hell is going on? They look
Speaker 1: like a whole bunch of cattle being taken to the slaughter.
Speaker 8: Yes, it totally reminds me of that. I know. I
Speaker 8: listened to her commentary track and she was talking about it.
Speaker 8: She wanted them to look like insects, but for me,
Speaker 8: it was much more like cattle being put into slaughter.
Speaker 8: And you were waiting for that the device that haaveyar
Speaker 8: Bard deem uses no country for old men to kill them.
Speaker 8: It was just such a bizarre and disorienting shot. You
Speaker 8: really don't know where they are. It's almost like a
Speaker 8: sci fi look to it. Also, it doesn't have a
Speaker 8: specific timeframe or location really, but it was that was
Speaker 8: just a fabulous way to take us into that world.
Speaker 7: Starts with someone crawling in that kind of Japanese harorway
Speaker 7: that you see like and that was it the ring
Speaker 7: that she comes out of the TV. But you kind
Speaker 7: of see that a lot in Japanese hard this kind
Speaker 7: of insect like crawling forward of a ghost or something.
Speaker 7: And then she has a point where someone's licking someone's eye.
Speaker 7: She has a lot of little Japanese touches like just
Speaker 7: here and there, like she'll do these a lot of
Speaker 7: great movie references, like you can't help thinking other babes
Speaker 7: obviously as you're watching this, which.
Speaker 1: Is so great too, things like well, even with the
Speaker 1: car crash that we see later on, I was thinking
Speaker 1: of Weekend, you know, very similar road. Of course, there's
Speaker 1: the big Carrie reference when they're doused with blood. Even
Speaker 1: when she's eating raw meat, I was thinking of Rosemary's Baby.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, this is just steeped in film references.
Speaker 8: But it's steeped in film references where it's not that
Speaker 8: like nudge, nudge, wink wink, look at what I'm doing.
Speaker 8: You can watch the whole movie and not catch a
Speaker 8: single one of those and it still plays fine. And again,
Speaker 8: I just like her subtlety. She doesn't try to call
Speaker 8: attention to some of that stuff, but.
Speaker 9: It's all there.
Speaker 8: And like you said, this is a film you can
Speaker 8: keep rewatching and you keep finding new things in it,
Speaker 8: and that's one of the things that's so exciting about it.
Speaker 1: And just those little blink and you miss at moments
Speaker 1: like when they turn this the initiation into a big
Speaker 1: party and and you see a guy with the girl
Speaker 1: and he's about to make out with her, and it
Speaker 1: looks like he takes something and puts it in her mouth,
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, Okay, is that ecstasy or is
Speaker 1: that like a Roofye, Like, I don't know what this is,
Speaker 1: but she just accepts whatever it is that he puts
Speaker 1: in her mouth.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Incredible detail, like just incredible background people and incredible of course,
Speaker 7: little punctuating actors like the guy at the gas station
Speaker 7: and the crazy smiling demon in the hospital room when
Speaker 7: they're when they're getting her in the hospital, her finger
Speaker 7: after her finger incident. She just places these really interesting characters,
Speaker 7: little interesting details to just put you on edge.
Speaker 9: And also the nurse is another great one. Obviously.
Speaker 8: She talked about the fact she called these her Island characters,
Speaker 8: like they only exist in one scene, and they're kind
Speaker 8: of like these harbingers of something that's coming, Like each
Speaker 8: one kind of gives her a warning about something or
Speaker 8: talks about something that's going to come up later. But yeah,
Speaker 8: they're great characters. You could pull each one of them
Speaker 8: out and make a little movie separately to each of them.
Speaker 9: Yeah, and anything they say has nothing to do with
Speaker 9: the movie.
Speaker 7: Like the guy at the truck stop who's holding his
Speaker 7: ear in such an eerie way. He's like making Aiden
Speaker 7: feel very uncomfortable in a sexual way, but he's I
Speaker 7: forget what he's talking about pigs or he has a
Speaker 7: pig in his truck or something. And then the nurse
Speaker 7: is they're stuck in about an old student who is overweight,
Speaker 7: and I have a feel like that's a nod to
Speaker 7: obviously the growing up thing and being in a female
Speaker 7: growing up and how oppressive it can be. But it's
Speaker 7: so sideways and it just what's nice is it gives you,
Speaker 7: It takes you out.
Speaker 9: Of the movie for a split second.
Speaker 7: In a way, it makes them to be not overwhelming
Speaker 7: because you take these little, tiny side trips every once.
Speaker 9: In a while.
Speaker 8: It does tie in because talking about the pig, and
Speaker 8: it's like how close it is to humans and this
Speaker 8: notion of issue losing her humanity by turning in to
Speaker 8: a cannibal or is she just becoming more animalistic? There's
Speaker 8: part of that. And then the nurse, it's so much
Speaker 8: of that conversation is about growing up, about body image,
Speaker 8: about how perceptions of people impact the way they behave
Speaker 8: and the way they're perceived. So like each of those things,
Speaker 8: and the little demon guy at the hospital, My god,
Speaker 8: he was so good. But it's like, first he seems
Speaker 8: totally creepy and then he seems funny and inviting and
Speaker 8: almost like welcoming her in a weird sort of way,
Speaker 8: and her reaction to it is she just doesn't seem
Speaker 8: to know how to take him. But all those characters
Speaker 8: were just so rich in just single scenes.
Speaker 1: Well, the thing with the guy at the truck stop,
Speaker 1: isn't her roommate who eventually becomes her lover a is
Speaker 1: that his name right. He talks about how like how
Speaker 1: gross it is the way that she was eating, and
Speaker 1: that really turns off a guy, and then she uses
Speaker 1: that against the truck driver in order is she just
Speaker 1: starts stuffing her face after a while, Like when he's
Speaker 1: talking to them and starting to get really super creepy,
Speaker 1: she just starts stuffing her face. And it's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be around this girl because she's
Speaker 1: eating so disgustingly. Yeah, there's little things like you know,
Speaker 1: you've mentioned pigs, there's a cow, there's horses, there's a dog,
Speaker 1: very prominent in this whole film as well. I like though, too,
Speaker 1: that when they're at that opening party, that there's a
Speaker 1: lamb with a electrical cord around its neck, this kind
Speaker 1: of sacrificial image.
Speaker 9: It's creepy. It's really creepy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think they talk very much about
Speaker 1: how she's a virgin as well. I mean, not only
Speaker 1: is she getting this first taste of meat and this
Speaker 1: whole new life that is coming out for her, but
Speaker 1: she's also sexually awakening. I mean, I think the two
Speaker 1: really go hand in hand.
Speaker 8: It's a first for her for so many things. She's
Speaker 8: going to college for the first time. She's in this
Speaker 8: environment that's brand new. She's a virgin, she's going to
Speaker 8: try human flesh for the first time. There's so much
Speaker 8: there that.
Speaker 1: As you do when you're a freshman, right.
Speaker 7: I think a really interesting theme is she has zero
Speaker 7: control over anything, which is very like adolescent through emerging
Speaker 7: adult age group. It's like she is going to the
Speaker 7: same college that her parents went to and that her
Speaker 7: sister went to. She's forced to make out with that
Speaker 7: guy in the closet, like she's forced to wear certain
Speaker 7: clothes that her sister gives her.
Speaker 9: They'd make her wear a diaper. They're telling her what
Speaker 9: to wear.
Speaker 7: The hazing is completely in complete control over them, how
Speaker 7: she's sleeping.
Speaker 9: The professor tells her, I don't care how good you are.
Speaker 9: I don't like you. She has what she's eating.
Speaker 7: She has no control over anything, and I think that's
Speaker 7: really I think they that she hits the director hits
Speaker 7: Julia hits that really really hard, that she has zero
Speaker 7: control and she ends up in a trap. The intention
Speaker 7: was that she's morally overcoming this thing that her sister
Speaker 7: wasn't able to overcome. But still I find it very sad.
Speaker 7: In the end, that she's really been trapped into this thing.
Speaker 8: I'm not so sure I would define it as lack
Speaker 8: of control as much as just she's it's just being
Speaker 8: young and being this kind of blank slate, like she
Speaker 8: doesn't have a lot of experiences to guide her or
Speaker 8: to even make her think about choices that she might have.
Speaker 8: So I feel like she's this empty receptacle that's receiving
Speaker 8: all this information and all this stuff, and the progress
Speaker 8: is her finally like making some choices, even though some
Speaker 8: of them aren't completely in her control. That also brings
Speaker 8: up like the sins of the parents brought down on
Speaker 8: the sins of their child. But yeah, I mean, it
Speaker 8: seems like she just keeps having these weird experiences that
Speaker 8: she has to kind of file away and do something
Speaker 8: with and make decisions about what they all mean. And
Speaker 8: in her particular case, she's got some very difficult complicating factors.
Speaker 1: The whole idea of her sister being part of this
Speaker 1: school and being there as this hazing ritual is going on,
Speaker 1: and it feels like, is this hazing going on for
Speaker 1: the first full year or is it the first full week?
Speaker 8: I mean, how it's a week I think Yeah.
Speaker 1: This whole timeline is so compressed.
Speaker 8: Then, so one of the things I will say about,
Speaker 8: like the whole hazing and the you talked about her
Speaker 8: being forced to dress a certain way because they tell so.
Speaker 8: KPBS is on the San Diego State campus and when
Speaker 8: I used to work late at night, I used to
Speaker 8: see all the sorority and fraternity people coming back from
Speaker 8: parties or going to parties. And one of the things
Speaker 8: that always baffled me was I would see like this
Speaker 8: large group of women all dressed exactly the same. One
Speaker 8: night would be short black dress day, the other night
Speaker 8: would be short shorts in boots, the other night would
Speaker 8: be flappers. And like, I've always been baffled by fraternities
Speaker 8: and sororities because the idea of conformity is probably as
Speaker 8: horrific as cannibalism. To me, it's just something I don't understand.
Speaker 8: And then if I was there really late at the
Speaker 8: end of the night, if it was like midnight or
Speaker 8: two am or something, I would see the same procession
Speaker 8: at night, which was always the women with their stiletto
Speaker 8: heels slung over their shoulder being carried by two other
Speaker 8: girls or a couple guys. And throwing up in places,
Speaker 8: and it was like, I don't understand this desire to
Speaker 8: be part of a group that asks you to conform,
Speaker 8: and hazing is part of this too. It's a sense
Speaker 8: like we are going to put you, like the elders
Speaker 8: are going to put you through this particular ringer that
Speaker 8: we've designed because we've been through it before, and we're
Speaker 8: going to pass it on to you and with like
Speaker 8: trying to teach her this obedience in this conformity that honestly,
Speaker 8: that is as terrifying to me as anything else in
Speaker 8: the film, Like the whole hazing and stuff is just scary.
Speaker 1: The decision is do you want to dress like it's
Speaker 1: a party time? Basically, do you want to dress like
Speaker 1: a slut or do you want to dress like a baby.
Speaker 1: We can put you in a diaper or we can
Speaker 1: put you in a short black dress, one or the other.
Speaker 7: You can make that a reference of women's oppression, like
Speaker 7: you're either infantilized or you're a slug. But and I
Speaker 7: think she definitely talks about that when you hear her
Speaker 7: interviewed about that, she's it's very much a feminist intentionally.
Speaker 9: But I do think though.
Speaker 7: It is it is a really great choice cultural choice
Speaker 7: of a nightmare situation. I agree, I find that idea
Speaker 7: terrifying to be in a fraternity or to me that
Speaker 7: is that's terrifying, and it's a really great choice to
Speaker 7: be in this claustrophobic school. But you could see it's
Speaker 7: in the middle of nowhere and with this again this
Speaker 7: art brutalist, like this really gray background and it's depressing
Speaker 7: and dank and concrete, and then just the extremes. You
Speaker 7: don't know what these people are going to force you
Speaker 7: to do, and it is it's like a Saw movie.
Speaker 9: It's just like it's like a realistic Saw movie. That's
Speaker 9: really what it's like. And I also just want to point.
Speaker 7: Out that one of the amazing things in this movie
Speaker 7: is that all of the animal stuff is one hundred
Speaker 7: percent real, including the freakizoid in the jars, the little
Speaker 7: freaky those are all real. That's totally, every single thing
Speaker 7: in this movie is one hundred percent real, which makes
Speaker 7: it so cool.
Speaker 1: Though not real kidneys that they eat. Those are some
Speaker 1: sort of jelly stuff covered by chocolate, so I was
Speaker 1: glad that they didn't make them actually eat kidneys. Though
Speaker 1: with it being France, I was like, well, maybe that's
Speaker 1: a delicacy. I don't know.
Speaker 4: We use only the choicest, juicy chunks of fresh cornish rams, bladder.
Speaker 5: Empted, steamed, flavored with sesame seeds, whipped into a fondu
Speaker 5: and garnished with larks vomited.
Speaker 1: You were talking about the sins of the father, the
Speaker 1: sins of the parents being visited upon the daughters, and
Speaker 1: this whole idea of you know, if I went through this,
Speaker 1: so do you. It feels at times, not necessarily like
Speaker 1: a cannibal movie, but almost like a vampire film. When
Speaker 1: it comes to this idea of the hunger that they
Speaker 1: have for the flesh and the way that it's been
Speaker 1: passed down from generation to generation. It's like, how far
Speaker 1: back does this go? Does this go back to medieval
Speaker 1: times or earlier? Is this like a different race of people?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very fascinating to me to think about
Speaker 1: how this came to be, and that it feels very
Speaker 1: much like, oh, once the hunger is awakened via that kidney,
Speaker 1: then that's it. That's all she wrote. Otherwise it was
Speaker 1: strict vegetarianism. You really have to adhere to this until
Speaker 1: you get to go to the school and then suddenly
Speaker 1: you get that taste for human flesh.
Speaker 8: And also it seems like it's passed down from mother
Speaker 8: to daughter. He is more the obviously she feeds off
Speaker 8: of him in a certain way, the mother, And I'm
Speaker 8: not sure that the one thing I wasn't completely sure
Speaker 8: of is the scars, if that was from their initial
Speaker 8: like courtship quote unquote, or if that was something that
Speaker 8: has been going on over time. Does she have to
Speaker 8: feed on him on a regular basis in order to
Speaker 8: not go out and kill other people. It's this very
Speaker 8: female thing that's being passed on and he's just trying
Speaker 8: to help in the best way he can. So that
Speaker 8: was interesting, And you mentioned vampires, but there's times when
Speaker 8: it also feels like it's more of a werewolf story
Speaker 8: because she goes through that sort of physical transformation of
Speaker 8: the rashes and stuff and the peeling off of her
Speaker 8: skin when she goes to the doctor, and so that
Speaker 8: feels kind of like that werewolf transformation into something else.
Speaker 8: And also were wolves tend to be to me anyway,
Speaker 8: more of these tragic figures where they don't have control
Speaker 8: over what they're doing, they don't necessarily want to be
Speaker 8: werewolves vampires. While some people may be turned into vampires
Speaker 8: against their will, there is a sense that a lot
Speaker 8: of times you get vampires who are part of this
Speaker 8: ruling class or who have been berthed into this aristocracy
Speaker 8: of some kind. So there's a certain level where I
Speaker 8: feel like it's almost more of a werewolf story for
Speaker 8: me than vampire, although visually and kind of like what
Speaker 8: she's doing feels a little more vampiric. But yeah, I
Speaker 8: kept thinking about tragic werewolves.
Speaker 1: I can totally see that, especially you know, I don't
Speaker 1: remember which one of you brought up the animalistic aspect
Speaker 1: of this, And you know, there's that scene pretty early
Speaker 1: in the movie where there's the guy talking about fucking
Speaker 1: monkeys and getting AIDS and all this, and she really
Speaker 1: falls on the side of the monkeys, and it's just
Speaker 1: like she seems to identify more with the monkeys than
Speaker 1: with the people, and it's like, Okay, yeah, I can
Speaker 1: kind of see where she does have this much more
Speaker 1: animalistic side, and yet sometimes it feels like that hunger
Speaker 1: for her is completely uncontrollable, and I really think that
Speaker 1: that's great. I think that the werewolf angle is much
Speaker 1: more in tune than the vampire angle. And yeah, I've
Speaker 1: seen that whole dichotomy of vampires and werewolves. You know,
Speaker 1: I've seen all the Underworld films, so I definitely know
Speaker 1: how all that stuff goes. Though I still think that
Speaker 1: werewolves are really shitty bodyguards for vampires because you only
Speaker 1: get them like once a month. Well, and also with
Speaker 1: the werewolf thing, I mean the whole lunar cycle too,
Speaker 1: when it comes to women and their cycles and things,
Speaker 1: and just this whole idea of you know, is this
Speaker 1: the awakening of the blood, you know, the blood being
Speaker 1: such an important part of that ritual. When they get
Speaker 1: all the blood dumped on her, I mean we mentioned
Speaker 1: Carrie already, Carrie very similar, you know, she was what
Speaker 1: seventeen virgin getting that blood dumped on her, I mean
Speaker 1: it just really opened up her whole world.
Speaker 7: In both of those cases, that was real animal blood,
Speaker 7: like in Carrie, they killed those pigs and that this
Speaker 7: veterinary school was going to have the real thing to
Speaker 7: pour on them. But I wanted to just get back
Speaker 7: to the family thing again, and like the female family
Speaker 7: thing is, I thought it was a really nice touch
Speaker 7: that they Alex is not talking to.
Speaker 9: Her mother, but the mother.
Speaker 7: It's implied she's not talking to either parent, but it
Speaker 7: seems like it's much more the mother. And I think
Speaker 7: it's interesting that she maybe really resents her mother forgetting
Speaker 7: her to be this kind of being. And then I
Speaker 7: wonder if she teases her sister that, oh, they you're
Speaker 7: the special one.
Speaker 9: They love you, You're the favorite one.
Speaker 7: And the mother is like when they're in that diner
Speaker 7: as they're driving to the school and one of the
Speaker 7: first scenes, Justine actually accidentally gets a little meat in
Speaker 7: her potatoes, and the mother's really upset and she's just
Speaker 7: gonna tear the head off of the whoever the cook is.
Speaker 9: And it's interesting that she's so protective of Justin.
Speaker 7: So you wonder, I wondered, were they trying to protect
Speaker 7: Justine from this? But they sacrifice the older daughter, and
Speaker 7: that's why the older daughter's pissed up, and that's why
Speaker 7: the older daughters f this.
Speaker 9: I'm gonna make You're gonna be You're gonna have to
Speaker 9: suffer the way I did. She's such a villain.
Speaker 7: There's a love hate relationship, but it's way more hate
Speaker 7: on her end to her sister than it's a real
Speaker 7: great villain role.
Speaker 8: I'm not sure I see her as a villain for
Speaker 8: the reason I think where they're having that fight at
Speaker 8: the end and they're both biting into each other, and
Speaker 8: there's like this connection. Anytime you're in a family, there's
Speaker 8: love and hate all the time. Probably, Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 8: sure I see her as a villain. She's a victim herself.
Speaker 8: She's got this curse on her that she's had to
Speaker 8: live with and she's had to figure out a way
Speaker 8: to do it.
Speaker 7: She shoved that kidney down her throat, like they seem
Speaker 7: to be like whatever. They were like, oh, if you're
Speaker 7: a vegetarian, but she's like, no, no, you're gonna eat
Speaker 7: this thing. And I thought that was a all sign
Speaker 7: of she's gonna make sure this happens. And I think
Speaker 7: it could have been. It seemed to me maybe it
Speaker 7: could have been prevented. I don't know, that's just it
Speaker 7: is a matter of interpretation.
Speaker 8: But she also, like Justine, does not seem like one
Speaker 8: hundred percent on board with the vegetarianism. Like when she's
Speaker 8: at that restaurant and the mother gets upset, it's not
Speaker 8: a big deal to her, Like she doesn't seem to
Speaker 8: care that much. She doesn't seem to be as driven
Speaker 8: at that point about oh it's okay, I had a
Speaker 8: piece of meat in my mouth. It doesn't really matter,
Speaker 8: don't make a big scene. But the mother does want
Speaker 8: to make a big scene. She does when she's away
Speaker 8: from her mind, she does try to make that statement,
Speaker 8: I can't eat that I'm a vegetarian.
Speaker 9: But I don't know.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I just I think the film. For me, the
Speaker 8: film feels more complex than just labeling alex as a villain.
Speaker 8: Like I just don't see her like one hundred percent
Speaker 8: in that role, even though she does some things that
Speaker 8: are questionable, but maybe it's her way of doing tough love.
Speaker 9: They're subtle about her being a village. So I just
Speaker 9: I see it a little differently. But yeah, it's I
Speaker 9: think it's.
Speaker 7: Cool that you don't come away with that so much,
Speaker 7: except you do see her in the end in a
Speaker 7: trap there.
Speaker 9: But I don't know.
Speaker 7: I think again, it's just beautiful the way she portrayed
Speaker 7: the sister thing.
Speaker 9: I think that was a great choice.
Speaker 7: She says in interviews that she originally was not going
Speaker 7: to have a family, familial thing. It was going to
Speaker 7: be like another woman who maybe she had a relationship with,
Speaker 7: maybe even a romantic relationship with. But it is brilliant
Speaker 7: to do sisters because it's so love it's so like
Speaker 7: she She kind of comments the reason she chose it
Speaker 7: was that they could try to kill each other and
Speaker 7: then put their arms around each other and nobody would
Speaker 7: question that, because that's the way it is with sisters.
Speaker 8: Yeah, the familial aspect you know about it reminds me
Speaker 8: of that other film. I can't remember the title. We
Speaker 8: Are What We Are. It's the American remake of the
Speaker 8: Mexican film about the family. The family feels very kind
Speaker 8: of Quaker or something, but they eat human flesh and
Speaker 8: they have these lovely little dinner scenes where they're eating
Speaker 8: this human flesh. But there's this very sense, this very
Speaker 8: strong sense of family and that they have to keep
Speaker 8: doing this and they have to stay together and this
Speaker 8: is what they've always done. And there's a little bit
Speaker 8: of that film that kind of reminds me of this one,
Speaker 8: just in terms of kind of that family structure as
Speaker 8: something that's strong, that tries to be strong and tight
Speaker 8: knit and to try and keep them all safe by
Speaker 8: keeping that group enclosed. And it's when one of that
Speaker 8: group finds out what's going on or questions what's going
Speaker 8: on that that family structure can fall apart and on
Speaker 8: a certain level can cause danger in a certain way.
Speaker 8: But yeah, that sense of family structure I think is great.
Speaker 1: I love that as Laurent Lucas playing the father because
Speaker 1: we just talked about him last week when we talked
Speaker 1: about in My Skin and he was the kind of
Speaker 1: shithead boyfriend Vincennes and it's kind of nice to see
Speaker 1: him back here and with all these big bites out
Speaker 1: of him. I'm just like, oh, okay, it's not the
Speaker 1: same woman that would have you know, she was much
Speaker 1: more into eating herself than she was into eating him.
Speaker 1: But we definitely talked about what would it be like
Speaker 1: if she had decided to eat him instead, And here
Speaker 1: we get to kind of see it. And a beautiful,
Speaker 1: loving relationship has come forth with two beautiful girls.
Speaker 8: And he says, never don't have two girls. It's too
Speaker 8: much trouble.
Speaker 9: He says that to his younger daughter, meaning we shouldn't
Speaker 9: have had you.
Speaker 1: Yes, what do you guys think of the there's that
Speaker 1: sequence after she wakes up and finds that horrific rash
Speaker 1: across her and it's almost like the dream sequence, but
Speaker 1: we see the dream after she wakes up of the
Speaker 1: horse that's on that treadmill running in slow motion. I
Speaker 1: love that imagery. It looks so beautiful, but I keep
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what that means in relation to her.
Speaker 7: The worst is kind of like it's on a treadmill,
Speaker 7: so it's trapped and it can't horses, Like what animal
Speaker 7: loves to run more than a horse? Like none, there's none,
Speaker 7: that's it, Like horses love to run more than any animal.
Speaker 7: And it's on a treadmill, so it can't go anywhere,
Speaker 7: and then they have like harnesses around it.
Speaker 9: So I think it is that just being being trapped.
Speaker 8: Being on a treadmill also suggests no progress, like you're
Speaker 8: not going anywhere. In addition to being trapped, it's it's
Speaker 8: also no forward progress. And we also saw the horse
Speaker 8: a horse earlier that was going in for an operation,
Speaker 8: and so they take this big, powerful, huge horse and
Speaker 8: sedated it collapses in this tiny little room, and again
Speaker 8: that's another sense of being trapped in this small space.
Speaker 8: And I read that the horse was actually going in
Speaker 8: to be castrated, so it wasn't dead. So again like
Speaker 8: the horse images. Each time we've seen the horse, they're
Speaker 8: these like big, beautiful, powerful animals. But that's not how
Speaker 8: they're being depicted in the film. Thank god they didn't
Speaker 8: dissect them too.
Speaker 7: We see a lot of dead animals, We see dead dogs,
Speaker 7: and they are dissecting and but it's it's this great
Speaker 7: irony that there's meat everywhere, Like if you were if
Speaker 7: you were a kind of person who like had craved
Speaker 7: like animal meat, it's just meat as far as I could, like,
Speaker 7: you just have his endless meat.
Speaker 9: But what they created as human meat.
Speaker 7: So it's this interesting contrast, like irony, ironic contrast.
Speaker 8: Yeah, but do you really want to eat animals that
Speaker 8: you dissect that might be filled with what are they
Speaker 8: fill them with? To like from aldehyde? Like I would
Speaker 8: say that if I was like an animal, I would
Speaker 8: sniff that and go no, no, no no.
Speaker 1: Well they have a lot of live animals there too,
Speaker 1: Like when she walks into a classroom and there's a cow.
Speaker 9: Just standing right there, pregnant cow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Or when she goes to see her sister later
Speaker 1: on and her sister is shoulder deep inside of a cow.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh boy, I remember when I was in England,
Speaker 1: the first time. The person I was staying with was
Speaker 1: watching some sort of medical show and sure enough, they're
Speaker 1: just reaching inside of this cow. That was the first
Speaker 1: time I had ever seen that type of image. I
Speaker 1: was like, you got to be kidding me, what the
Speaker 1: hell is going on here? That's you know, BBC one
Speaker 1: nine o'clock at night. I'm like, whoa.
Speaker 8: And also the thing is you were not sure what
Speaker 8: she's doing at first, and it the past when I've
Speaker 8: seen something like that, it's been to help a cow,
Speaker 8: like birth a calf, and they're helping to pull out,
Speaker 8: and it wasn't It was like she's pulling shit out
Speaker 8: and removing some obstruction. So it's like the kind of grittiest, grungiest,
Speaker 8: dirtiest way to be inside that cow.
Speaker 1: I love the two mirror scenes that we have, like
Speaker 1: when she does get called out for not dressing you know,
Speaker 1: nightclub or sexy, and her sister puts that dress on
Speaker 1: her in the and she's looking at herself in the
Speaker 1: mirror and she's got her regular clothes on with this
Speaker 1: stress on over it. And then you get that moment
Speaker 1: later on in the film where she's dancing in front
Speaker 1: of the mirror with a different It might be.
Speaker 8: The same dress as the one, but she is so.
Speaker 1: Self possessed at that moment, the way that she starts
Speaker 1: making out with herself in the mirror and that fucking
Speaker 1: amazing song that is playing at that time, that rap,
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that they translated those lyrics because
Speaker 1: those are fucking wise.
Speaker 8: And the other thing about the mirrors is when she
Speaker 8: has that conversation early on in the film about the
Speaker 8: monkeys and they say, oh, you think monkeys deserve the
Speaker 8: same rights as humans, And her point is they can
Speaker 8: see themselves in a mirror, so they're self aware.
Speaker 9: So we have all.
Speaker 8: These mirror images throughout the film. I don't know if
Speaker 8: those are the moments when she wants us to think
Speaker 8: about how self aware is Justine, How self aware is
Speaker 8: she about where she is in this weird evolution that
Speaker 8: she's going through, and is she human in her self
Speaker 8: awareness or has she become more like animalistic like the monkeys,
Speaker 8: who can recognize themselves in the mirror but maybe don't
Speaker 8: have the same self awareness that a human being has.
Speaker 8: But yeah, I thought the fact that she brings up
Speaker 8: those mirrors right early on makes you think about that.
Speaker 7: And what happens right after that mirror scene, she's wearing
Speaker 7: her sister's dress, and now she's like really wearing her
Speaker 7: sister's dress, and she's then they show her in there's
Speaker 7: a sort of a party scene, and she's just got
Speaker 7: that Kubrick stare right, she's.
Speaker 9: Got her head down and she's got the Kubrick stair.
Speaker 7: She's sitting there like an animal, Like, she really looks
Speaker 7: like an animal there. And then the next thing that
Speaker 7: happens is it turns out her sister tricked her, right,
Speaker 7: and she was really really drunk, and I think it's
Speaker 7: I think I'm saying the sequence right. That's when her
Speaker 7: sister filmed her because she was so drunk she didn't
Speaker 7: know what she was doing. Films her with a corpse
Speaker 7: and is making her beg like an animal on her
Speaker 7: hands and knees, beg like an animal for this corpse.
Speaker 7: And then the sister shows this to everybody, which again
Speaker 7: is the sister in control and humilitating her and anyway,
Speaker 7: so again she's turning into an animal.
Speaker 9: For sure.
Speaker 7: It's just thwarted. She's still in control of her sister.
Speaker 7: She has no control over anything. So it's very sad.
Speaker 9: Domesticated on a leash, all those kind of things you could.
Speaker 8: Say technically in the sisters defense, technically I will say
Speaker 8: she did not film it and share it. It was
Speaker 8: other people in the crowd. And there's even one person who,
Speaker 8: like some guy walks away, going, this girl is too drunk.
Speaker 8: You guys shouldn't you shouldn't be filming. And I mean
Speaker 8: the sister's definitely at fault for doing that too.
Speaker 9: She's doing it.
Speaker 7: She's doing yeah, she's doing it. And for everybody's got phones.
Speaker 7: Everybody knows that's gonna be fun, you know what I mean,
Speaker 7: It's yeah, And I think it was really incredibly cruel.
Speaker 7: Just think about her doing that to her sister. It
Speaker 7: is just, Yeah, I thought it was. It was quite wicked.
Speaker 8: And in that scene you talk about when she's at
Speaker 8: the at the party, it's also that red theme that
Speaker 8: goes through it. She's got that Kubrick stare, but it's
Speaker 8: also got this red wash of light and it really
Speaker 8: the thing I kept thinking when I saw her at
Speaker 8: that point is like she has now become the predatory animal.
Speaker 8: She has transformed at this point.
Speaker 1: Yes, she looks like she is a dog in that scene,
Speaker 1: and I am just so glad that this film didn't
Speaker 1: go there. When it came to the dog and the
Speaker 1: Brazilian wax, I really thought for sure that that was
Speaker 1: going to happen in this movie, and I was really
Speaker 1: glad that it didn't. But got that Brazilian wax scene.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't you trim first before you put on the wax,
Speaker 1: because she's got a lot of hair there.
Speaker 8: And I think it makes it harder if you trim.
Speaker 8: I don't know what hurts is just the hair coming out,
Speaker 8: whether it's long or short, I think. But yeah, the
Speaker 8: dog going there though, would have been in the Japanese
Speaker 8: anime what was it?
Speaker 9: Gance?
Speaker 8: They have a name for the.
Speaker 9: Dog, what is it?
Speaker 8: A butter dog I've got yeah.
Speaker 1: Though it had been a little Bobcat gold weight sleeping dogs. Lie. Yeah.
Speaker 8: She talks about that Brazilian wax as torture, and that's
Speaker 8: another aspect of this of what women go through to
Speaker 8: try to conform to certain ideas of how they should
Speaker 8: look or how they should be. But yeah, you're gonna
Speaker 8: put yourself through that kind of torture.
Speaker 9: Justine wants none of it. She even plucks, She even plucks.
Speaker 7: Her eyebrow, at one point, the sister's just again to me,
Speaker 7: the sister is just constantly, constantly, just like absolutely dominating
Speaker 7: in a way that is really aggressive. And there's even
Speaker 7: a moment when they're playing video games. So then she
Speaker 7: also with Adrian. I'm sorry if I said Aiden before
Speaker 7: I met Adrian.
Speaker 9: They're playing she she won.
Speaker 7: So Justine's developing a real crush obviously on this this roommate,
Speaker 7: this gay roommate. And but the sister can tell that,
Speaker 7: and so she moves in on him and is playing games,
Speaker 7: and then he leaves. They're playing games, she and her
Speaker 7: sister in adversarial position of playing a game against each other.
Speaker 7: And the last thing that the sister says, where it
Speaker 7: cuts away, she goes, kill yourself, kill yourself. She's like
Speaker 7: instructing her, She's instructing her how to play a game.
Speaker 7: She's like, kill yourself, kill yourself.
Speaker 9: Which I think.
Speaker 7: Again, like there's really so much detail, Like even on
Speaker 7: the little there's like a TV screen at one point.
Speaker 9: Everything, every little detail really feeds into this.
Speaker 7: You can look at things on the wall that kind
Speaker 7: of feed into the whole story, and I think every
Speaker 7: single word is really very carefully written.
Speaker 8: Well when you say everything, Like on the wall when
Speaker 8: the demon guy in the hospital, the sign behind him says,
Speaker 8: do not cross this red line. And that's kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 8: there's these lines. Maybe it's the line of human and
Speaker 8: dividing humanity and animals, but don't cross that line, and
Speaker 8: they do.
Speaker 1: I have to say that one of the most disturbing things.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can keep all the cannibalism. The most
Speaker 1: disturbing thing for me is when she is throwing up
Speaker 1: her own hair.
Speaker 9: That's a nightmare I have all the time. Do you
Speaker 9: ever have that nightmare? I have that nightmare a lot
Speaker 9: where I'm.
Speaker 7: Just pulling things out of my mouth. It's often hair
Speaker 7: or some other substance like that. So I wonder if
Speaker 7: she got that from a real dream. I imagine it's
Speaker 7: the kind of thing a lot of people have. But yeah,
Speaker 7: I was Boy, did that get me?
Speaker 9: For sure?
Speaker 8: I don't have that nightmare. But everybody's gotten like a
Speaker 8: hair in their food at some point, and it's just
Speaker 8: like uncomfortable, feeling like you just don't want it in
Speaker 8: your mouth. So to see like a massive amount of
Speaker 8: it is really brutal. And I think there's also people
Speaker 8: think of hairballs they always think of cats, and that's
Speaker 8: usually not something that's horrific. We think cats are funny
Speaker 8: when they're throwing up hair of balls. I don't know,
Speaker 8: but it also plays in that's another Japanese thing. Hair
Speaker 8: in Japanese movies, whether it's going down drains or coming
Speaker 8: out of people's mouths or growing and attacking people like,
Speaker 8: hair is a really vivid and visceral kind of element.
Speaker 8: But yeah, I think it's something that everybody can identify
Speaker 8: with on a certain level. Not that amount of hair,
Speaker 8: but definitely that feeling of oh, I got a hair
Speaker 8: in my mouth, and then to multiply that by the
Speaker 8: amount she had, and to keep pulling and playing and playing.
Speaker 1: And that you saw her chewing on her hair in
Speaker 1: the previous when that professor's calling her out. I just
Speaker 1: was thinking of all the time that there was a
Speaker 1: time in elementary school where this poor girl was chewing
Speaker 1: on her own hair and my teacher made her go
Speaker 1: up to the front of the classroom and basically humiliated
Speaker 1: her in front of everyone. Was just like, okay, Tracy,
Speaker 1: if you're kind of chew your hair, chew your hair
Speaker 1: right here, we all want to see it. It was
Speaker 1: like oh my god, Like that still haunts me to
Speaker 1: this day. I can't imagine what it did for Tracy.
Speaker 7: One thing I hate in all movies in the vomit scenes.
Speaker 7: I can't watch a vomit scene, but I hadn't seen.
Speaker 7: Mike very kindly provided us with some deleted scenes, and
Speaker 7: I hope people can find this on YouTube. But there's
Speaker 7: one deleted scene where she's in the classroom where they
Speaker 7: had the pregnant cow, and it's a really great scene.
Speaker 7: I wish they hadn't cut it actually, where the professor
Speaker 7: is talking and she's beginning to go into some weird,
Speaker 7: little kind of hypnotic state, and everything is going into
Speaker 7: this very weird it's hard to explain how they do it,
Speaker 7: but it's slow moey and that kind of thing, and
Speaker 7: she ends up running out of the classroom and in
Speaker 7: complete slow motion, and it almost it's like you just
Speaker 7: see a little courtyard and you see these this sort
Speaker 7: of hallway through glass, and in slimush, she throws up
Speaker 7: on the glass and it's beautiful. It's the first time
Speaker 7: I've ever seen a beautiful vomit scene. It's really worth seeing.
Speaker 9: It's gorgeous and it's unbelievably. The direction there is just amazing.
Speaker 8: So much of this film is gorgeous, even though it
Speaker 8: shouldn't be. We shouldn't find some of this stuff to
Speaker 8: look beautiful, but the film is really a beautifully shot
Speaker 8: and executed movie.
Speaker 1: Speaking of throwing up, I love after she throws up.
Speaker 1: There's the girl in the bathroom with her who is
Speaker 1: just like, oh, you should really use your fingers instead.
Speaker 8: It makes it much easier, she said, use two fingers,
Speaker 8: and then.
Speaker 1: She's like combing her hair with her fingers, and she
Speaker 1: just has this beautiful smile, like she kind of smiles
Speaker 1: at herself and her eyes closed and she just looks
Speaker 1: like so beatific. I'm like, what the hell, But it's
Speaker 1: like this nice advice from one girl to another because
Speaker 1: she probably thinks that Justine is bellemic.
Speaker 8: But also that's my like, that's like her testing that smiles.
Speaker 8: I'm gonna have to go out of this bathroom into
Speaker 8: the public space, and I need to look like I'm happy.
Speaker 8: So this is my happy smile, because when she stops smiling,
Speaker 8: she does not look happy at all, and she's a
Speaker 8: little chubby, so she's probably somebody who herself has done
Speaker 8: this or has been told that she needs to lose
Speaker 8: some weight, so it feels very much. Again, this is
Speaker 8: another commentary on like body image and the pressures to
Speaker 8: look a certain way, and and that's her advice. It's
Speaker 8: I've had to do this, so let me just give
Speaker 8: you some advice. It's a whole lot easier. And then
Speaker 8: at the end of the film she does use two fingers.
Speaker 7: When she at the hospital site. Is that what you
Speaker 7: mean after the hospital?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 7: She and by the way, that hospital and speaking again
Speaker 7: of beutiful building, Oh my god, that building is so cool.
Speaker 9: The hospital. You have to it's just great.
Speaker 7: So she goes outside of the hospital and yeah, she
Speaker 7: tries to make herself throw up the finger and yeah,
Speaker 7: there it is.
Speaker 9: Everything comes back around in a beautiful way.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and those buildings, it does remind me of like
Speaker 8: Cronenberg's films, especially some of his early ones, like those structures.
Speaker 1: That are Crimes to the Future or whatever.
Speaker 8: Yeah, but also way back, what was that what was
Speaker 8: the student film that he made? I forgot the name
Speaker 8: of it. Oh, I think it maybe that was the
Speaker 8: original Crimes of the Future, because wasn't didn't you do what?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, so that one yeah, where it's these kind
Speaker 8: of cold, very impressive structures, but it had a very
Speaker 8: cronenberg Esque look to the buildings and the just the
Speaker 8: architecture that's throughout the film.
Speaker 1: And I seem to remember that had a lot of
Speaker 1: people in white coats as well, if memory serves. It's
Speaker 1: been a long time since I've seen it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so confusing that he made two movies with the
Speaker 1: same title, and I don't think they're related, but I
Speaker 1: have and seeing the new.
Speaker 8: One, No, they're not not that. Maybe thematically you could
Speaker 8: say they're related, but in terms of an actual narrative,
Speaker 8: I did not find anything.
Speaker 1: They're Brazilian scene definitely, the whole idea of the chopping
Speaker 1: off of the finger and rather than I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess the preservation doesn't go as well as it should have,
Speaker 1: what with Justine starting to eat the finger, and then
Speaker 1: the whole idea of the sister waking up, and I just, oh, man,
Speaker 1: that's like this shared secret that they have that keeps
Speaker 1: them together. For me, the rest of the movie, it's
Speaker 1: and then that poor fucking dog, because they're going to
Speaker 1: put the dog down because they pinned the blame on
Speaker 1: the dog.
Speaker 8: I noticed throughout the film there is no concern for dogs,
Speaker 8: Like when she's in the car driving to school and
Speaker 8: the dog licks her in a very friendly, affectionate way.
Speaker 8: She just shoves that dog away, which is another reason
Speaker 8: why I didn't believe she was vegetarian at all. You
Speaker 8: don't treat animals, you a dog like that dog exists
Speaker 8: only for joy, so anyway, but that is my own
Speaker 8: personal prejudice on that point.
Speaker 7: The music in that scene it's amazing, like it really
Speaker 7: makes that scene like spectacular. It starts with just a
Speaker 7: nice guitar that's almost too nice for what just happened.
Speaker 7: This is after the finger gets cut off. There's this
Speaker 7: beautiful there's like this theme that goes with Justine and
Speaker 7: it's just a really pretty guitar theme.
Speaker 9: But then it goes into what.
Speaker 7: Is it clavier like the organ that it's like the
Speaker 7: classic horror movie Organs but done.
Speaker 9: It's such a gorgeous like they nail it so hard.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and we can wonder what if there had been
Speaker 8: ice in the freezer, would this have taken a different turn?
Speaker 8: Would she have never bitten it? I don't know. But
Speaker 8: that scene also made me think of the other French
Speaker 8: film inside, Like, where the hell did French get these
Speaker 8: scissors that can cut open a stomach and just blop
Speaker 8: off a finger.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've never had scissors that sharp in my
Speaker 1: entire life. I've never had knives that's sharp in my life.
Speaker 7: In one of her interviews, she admits that she's like,
Speaker 7: that might be a little unrealistic.
Speaker 9: Yeah, she does say that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, which, so she gotta you gotta, you gotta conventions
Speaker 7: with movies.
Speaker 8: Yeah, but yeah, when you see your take out those scissors,
Speaker 8: first you're terrified that she's gonna cut that wax off
Speaker 8: and cut off her sister's skin. And then it turns
Speaker 8: out that those scissors get turned on her. But yeah,
Speaker 8: you see those scissors come out, and you're immediately like
Speaker 8: your hair it rises going, Yeah, nothing good's gonna happen
Speaker 8: from that.
Speaker 1: Well, when she brings out the scissors, doesn't Justine say
Speaker 1: you're going to castrate me.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 8: She said my pussy or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad that shot translates between American and French.
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't realize that pussy is the same
Speaker 1: in any language. Oh, you'll circumcise me, that's what she.
Speaker 8: Says not, Yeah, that's great, that's a much greater choice
Speaker 8: of words there.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly because of the female circumcision. Yeah, I did
Speaker 1: see one video essay that was talking about that opening
Speaker 1: scene that we were discussing with the car crash at
Speaker 1: the beginning and just positing like, well, maybe that's why
Speaker 1: Alexia isn't there when the parents show up to school,
Speaker 1: and that she's out causing that car crash, because then
Speaker 1: you see the car crash later on in the film
Speaker 1: when it's her in a roommate going out for takeaway
Speaker 1: to get that kebab, and she's fascinated by that car crash,
Speaker 1: and then after you see the third car crash, you're like, oh, Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe each time this is happening, that's Alexia needing to feed.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and the timeline is just something we don't know,
Speaker 8: Like we don't know if that car crash was months
Speaker 8: ago or it was immediately before she got there. And
Speaker 8: again that's like the ambiguity of the film that she
Speaker 8: just doesn't feel like she needs to explain that, but
Speaker 8: we're gonna eventually piece together what that car crash means
Speaker 8: and that it happens more than once. She has to
Speaker 8: feed quite often.
Speaker 9: I love that I did it. That's why they couldn't
Speaker 9: reach her. Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1: I also love the scene when she is staring at
Speaker 1: you're talking about the Kuprick stare, when she's staring at
Speaker 1: Adrian when he's playing whatever game that is, and just
Speaker 1: the active, active camera on him that's moving all over
Speaker 1: and then cut back to her and it's that still
Speaker 1: camera and you just get that look on her face
Speaker 1: and it's not lust. It's definitely something other than lust.
Speaker 1: And we've had that shot earlier, just like the previous
Speaker 1: scene in the dissection room where she's staring at the
Speaker 1: back of his neck and I'm like, Okay, maybe that's lust.
Speaker 1: But this thing of him playing the games and grabbing
Speaker 1: onto his cock and stuff like, I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's lust or if that's hunger. And it's funny that
Speaker 1: hunger can mean both. That we talk and that's when
Speaker 1: you get that famous image of her getting the nose plate.
Speaker 8: She's looking at that flesh and that tasty skin. It definitely,
Speaker 8: to me, definitely reads more of a flesh hunger than
Speaker 8: a sexual desire at that point.
Speaker 7: Yes, so we should probably at this point talk about
Speaker 7: that sex scene which is pure animal, which was an
Speaker 7: amazing performance. I think they had some stand ins because
Speaker 7: she was only seventeen, But oh my gosh. I love
Speaker 7: the ending of it where it really you think she's
Speaker 7: biting into him and they do it beautifully work just
Speaker 7: for a second you think she's biting into him and
Speaker 7: then he realized now she's biting into.
Speaker 9: Her own arm. It's a great ending to that scene.
Speaker 8: I love that the director talked about that being she
Speaker 8: considered the sex scene like a stunt scene, like a
Speaker 8: fight scene that has to be choreographed that and I
Speaker 8: think she did it where she actually was like giving
Speaker 8: direction during the scene, telling them what to do. But yeah, yeah,
Speaker 8: it's like this well choreographed action and yeah, the no,
Speaker 8: the bite is like it is the perfect way to.
Speaker 1: End it, and that's the orgasm right there.
Speaker 9: She did so many great interviews, but like she mentioned
Speaker 9: possession at one point the subway scene, and I think
Speaker 9: it might have been attached to that scene, which makes
Speaker 9: a lot of sense, like just the person just completely
Speaker 9: losing it, just that kind of acting where you just
Speaker 9: have to let go. So it's really quite a wild scene.
Speaker 7: It's really really over the top and it totally works
Speaker 7: that it's over the top.
Speaker 8: Yeah, because you really see a transformation. There's a point
Speaker 8: where it starts and you're kind of like, oh, okay, it's
Speaker 8: a sexual awakening. She's attracted to him, and then she
Speaker 8: has a transformation, Like you really see a point where
Speaker 8: you start to worry for adrian safety because you feel like, oh,
Speaker 8: that's a hunger for flesh that's waking up right now.
Speaker 8: And I kind of like this guy, and I'm a
Speaker 8: little work. He's not gonna make it through this.
Speaker 1: All right, Let's go ahead and take a break and
Speaker 1: we're going to play an interview that I did with
Speaker 1: Barbara Creed, the author of the monstrous feminine film Feminism
Speaker 1: and Psychoanalysis, as well as quite a few other things.
Speaker 1: Had a great time talking with her about this week's
Speaker 1: movie as well as the previous week's movie in My Skin.
Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to that episode, I highly recommend
Speaker 1: you to go back and listen to that as well.
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, let's go ahead take this break,
Speaker 1: and we'll be back with that interview right after these
Speaker 1: brief messages.
Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, this is Marvin McDowell. I just want to
Speaker 2: say that this is a request to listeners of the
Speaker 2: Projection Booth podcast to become patrons of the show via
Speaker 2: Patreon dot com, pat bo n dot com slash Projection Booth.
Speaker 2: That's pretty simple, I need you can do that. It's
Speaker 2: a great show and Mike he provides hours of great entertainment.
Speaker 2: So now it's time to give back my little drovies.
Speaker 2: Settle down and take a listen and have a sip
Speaker 2: of the old Molocco and then you'll be ready for
Speaker 2: a little of.
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Speaker 10: I'd like to know a little bit more about you,
Speaker 10: and especially how you got interested in animus studies.
Speaker 3: I became interested as a kid. Really, I was an
Speaker 3: avid Hitchcock fan as a teenager. This is going back
Speaker 3: into the late fifties, Vertigo, Psycho. I just love them all,
Speaker 3: and so that continued on. I helped set up the
Speaker 3: first film society at Monash University where I went, and
Speaker 3: I was a secondary school teacher. I was meant to
Speaker 3: be teaching literature, but more often than not, i'd be
Speaker 3: teaching a film instead. I'd hire films from the State
Speaker 3: Film Center and I got a projectionist license.
Speaker 10: Although I'm really.
Speaker 3: Interested in literature, and I didn't my honest in literature.
Speaker 3: I didn't my masters and my PhD and so forth
Speaker 3: in cinema here in Australia. So it's just been a
Speaker 3: lifelong passion. Really, we want to work out exactly why
Speaker 3: we have to go into sort of analysis of some
Speaker 3: sorted Probably I just so I always found films so exciting,
Speaker 3: and I was always very interested in surrealism from an
Speaker 3: early age too, so I was somehow drawn to the dark,
Speaker 3: crazy side of things. I love all cinema, but particularly
Speaker 3: surrealer cinema and horror cinema. Noir is another favorite.
Speaker 10: What were some of those early surrealist films that you're watching.
Speaker 3: I think probably the first one I saw was on
Speaker 3: Aushoon and Alou. When I started university, we screened it
Speaker 3: at the Film Society. We had a little Boonwell festival,
Speaker 3: and I got involved in the Melbourne International Film Festival,
Speaker 3: which screened annually and it was the only place in
Speaker 3: Australia where you could see films uncensored. There was no
Speaker 3: censorship restrictions. So I used to volunteer as an usher.
Speaker 3: I was still at high school and go across to
Speaker 3: a place called Saint Kilda to the old Palais Theater
Speaker 3: where we had the screenings. I saw a lot of
Speaker 3: films there that would not be released commercially at all,
Speaker 3: so that was the only chance we got. Yeah, it
Speaker 3: would have been all shown and aloud for sure.
Speaker 1: Then.
Speaker 3: Probably the first feature was Exterminating Angel, one of full
Speaker 3: time favorites, as well as belt Azure.
Speaker 10: I love that so many people when they look at films,
Speaker 10: they just think.
Speaker 1: Here's a movie.
Speaker 10: What's the first time that you said, there's something else
Speaker 10: going on here?
Speaker 3: Probably with Psycho. It was being screened in Melbourne and
Speaker 3: there was a lot of pipe around it and we
Speaker 3: were told that once we were in the cinema we
Speaker 3: weren't allowed out the doors would all be shut, which
Speaker 3: would clock, which of course they weren't, So that got
Speaker 3: us all spooked, and I was just astonished because gradually
Speaker 3: there was a constant stream of people who couldn't take
Speaker 3: it anymore and were leaving the cinema. By the time
Speaker 3: we got to the end when the mother turns around
Speaker 3: in her chair, that was some fled the cinema. So
Speaker 3: with Nicho, and I suppose it's because Hitchcock himself had
Speaker 3: put the subtext so firmly in the foreground, although back
Speaker 3: then we didn't even know about subtexts. Nonetheless, I picked
Speaker 3: up that there were other things going on there around
Speaker 3: Norman and his mother, and a repression of his sexuality
Speaker 3: and the strange relationship he develops with the marrying Crane
Speaker 3: figure and Vertigo too. I mean that I thought very
Speaker 3: early on in the film that the real critique was
Speaker 3: actually around the male character who was investigating her, and
Speaker 3: so that appealed because I could feel, again, as with Psycho,
Speaker 3: something that was going on beneath the surface. And I
Speaker 3: think many of Hitchcock's films are much more critique of
Speaker 3: masculinity and masculine repression, although he of course is just
Speaker 3: placing all that onto the heroine. Often, I think Hitchcock
Speaker 3: himself in fact identifies with the heroine. I saw that
Speaker 3: wonderful exhibition in Paris on Hitchcock. I don't know if
Speaker 3: you saw at the Pompidou Center Hitchcock and Art. Oh,
Speaker 3: such a knockout that you walked in and the entire
Speaker 3: huge gallery was blacked out, and all the exhibits that
Speaker 3: they'd got together from the films, such as the Mother's
Speaker 3: wig from Psycho for example, the knife, and they were
Speaker 3: all in cases as if they were precious art objects.
Speaker 3: That was all really dark, and it was called the
Speaker 3: Room of Fetishes from Memory, and Patricia Hitchcock was there,
Speaker 3: so I couldn't help myself. I introduced myself and I
Speaker 3: said to it, do you think your mother played a
Speaker 3: really pe role in the creation of his films? And
Speaker 3: she said, oh, yes, she said, in fact, I'm writing
Speaker 3: a book on that right now.
Speaker 10: I don't know if it came out.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. So yes, I think with Hitchcockabe, that's
Speaker 3: when I first became aware that these films were dealing
Speaker 3: with unconscious desires as well as conscious, and that there
Speaker 3: was something happening beneath the surface. Which is so much
Speaker 3: more evident, I think in horror, obviously, in film lawrence, surrealism, right. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and today, of course our students just accept this snow
Speaker 3: problem in convincing them.
Speaker 10: Monster's Feminine was the book. It was incritical and inspired
Speaker 10: that article.
Speaker 3: Firstly, I was very involved in women's liberation and gay
Speaker 3: liberation in the seventies and eighties, and a friend and
Speaker 3: I taught a course at the Council of Adult Education,
Speaker 3: which we call pre patriarchal religions. I'm not religious, but
Speaker 3: I became fascinated with what seemed to me to be
Speaker 3: the complete censorship or oppression or whatever of what had
Speaker 3: happened prior to Christianity, and that there were, in fact,
Speaker 3: I mean, I was taught these were pagan cults when
Speaker 3: I went to Sunday School. But I was fascinated by
Speaker 3: the very powerful female figures that existed in pre Christian
Speaker 3: mythology and so forth. My interest then in those kind
Speaker 3: of figures Demeter and Isis and so on, became stronger
Speaker 3: with feminism. And then I was teaching a course on
Speaker 3: the horror film in the seventies, and for some reason
Speaker 3: I must have consciously or unconsciously selected a lot of
Speaker 3: horror films with characters I carry, for example, and The Brood,
Speaker 3: where the monster was female. Yet I was reading in
Speaker 3: the articles I was setting there were no apart from
Speaker 3: the Witch, there were no female monsters of horror because
Speaker 3: woman was made the perfect victim. Gerard Ani, the French critic,
Speaker 3: was the strongest on this, and I thought, this, just
Speaker 3: this is ridiculous. I started in my course to look
Speaker 3: at the female monster, and my students got very excited
Speaker 3: about this. In fact, a group of them formed a
Speaker 3: little group which they called Savage Sisters. They bought themselves
Speaker 3: T shirts and I said, okay, why did we meet
Speaker 3: every month?
Speaker 10: And what you have to do is you go to
Speaker 10: your local video shop. We don't really have any more left.
Speaker 3: And all bring along with a horror video be grade,
Speaker 3: probably with the character's female, the monster's female. They found
Speaker 3: so many and I had to bring one too, so
Speaker 3: we'd screen them all day. We'd have fantastic looking at
Speaker 3: these and movies that was important. In fact, the other day,
Speaker 3: I can't believe it. I was at an auction and
Speaker 3: of the house which obviously belonged to some kind of
Speaker 3: film producer, be because it was all kind of dark
Speaker 3: and posters everywhere, and it was being auctioned, and suddenly,
Speaker 3: from across the other side of the room, just before
Speaker 3: we went into the auction, there were two middle aged
Speaker 3: women there. I could see them looking at me, and
Speaker 3: then one of them yelled at the top of her
Speaker 3: voice the monstrous feminine. And sure enough they said, look,
Speaker 3: we're still teaching what you taught us. And they were
Speaker 3: very excited, and so was I. I mean I remembered them, actually,
Speaker 3: so I I was teaching it. And then I had
Speaker 3: the screen asked me would I like to write an
Speaker 3: article for them on horror. And at the same time
Speaker 3: I'm being in Sydney and there was a very important
Speaker 3: Sydney academic, Liz Gross. I don't know if you know
Speaker 3: her name. She's a philosopher, and she was giving a
Speaker 3: lecture on Julia Christova's theory of objection. And I was
Speaker 3: absolutely fascinated. And although Christava herself at that time anyway,
Speaker 3: certainly as far as I know, I didn't really talk
Speaker 3: about film. In fact, I think she had a kind
Speaker 3: of classic highbrow attitude or French attitude, which she liked
Speaker 3: Kitchkock and directors who were acceptable to art house French cinema,
Speaker 3: but by and large not so much popular film, so
Speaker 3: she didn't really write about film. All her discussions at
Speaker 3: abjection relate to literature, but I thought seems to me
Speaker 3: that in fact, if anything, they make just as much sense.
Speaker 3: Her theory of the abject applied to film as to literature.
Speaker 3: So that's what I did in the article. So you
Speaker 3: could say it was this early course on classical mythology
Speaker 3: and female mythological figures, combined with my teaching the horror
Speaker 3: film and discovering so many films with female monsters, combined
Speaker 3: with Christava's theory of objection, which was very much centered
Speaker 3: on the monstrous female body, and just tied imperfectly with
Speaker 3: films like Perry and Her Menstruation and The Brood with
Speaker 3: the pregnancy and so on. And my students, of course,
Speaker 3: who were quite inspirational in all of this, and all
Speaker 3: of that just powered this together in the eighties, and
Speaker 3: so the original article came out in Screening eighty seven.
Speaker 10: I think it was.
Speaker 3: What happened was I got a letter from Tony Bennett
Speaker 3: who read the screen article. He's an academic, and said, look,
Speaker 3: we'd love it if you could just put this into
Speaker 3: book form and we can publish it in our series
Speaker 3: on popular culture. So I was doing my PhD at
Speaker 3: the time, so, and in fact, The Monstrous Feminine is
Speaker 3: my PhD. So I said, yes I can, but you
Speaker 3: just have to wait a bit, because I said, in fact,
Speaker 3: I'm writing it up now actually, but as a PhD.
Speaker 3: So I can't actually give it to you as a
Speaker 3: book until that goes through all the processes.
Speaker 10: Obviously, you talk a lot about the abject, and I've
Speaker 10: talked a little bit about that in our discussions of
Speaker 10: these films. But I was curious, what is your definition
Speaker 10: or how do you use objection when it comes to
Speaker 10: looking at films.
Speaker 3: When I wrote The Monstrous Feminine, I was using it
Speaker 3: very much as Christova does. So the object, it's not
Speaker 3: an object, it's a state of being. It's a feeling,
Speaker 3: and it occurs when boundaries are crossed, borders are breached,
Speaker 3: and in general, you could argue that she might use
Speaker 3: the word patriarchal societies that I did, although she talks
Speaker 3: about them like a lot of French feminists and other
Speaker 3: writers that don't like to be tied to feminism or
Speaker 3: seen as feminists that don't want the label. Even Douconno,
Speaker 3: who's directed raw and to take courses, has also said this.
Speaker 3: And christovers so I thought, if we apply objects as
Speaker 3: she does to patriarchal societies, we can see everything on
Speaker 3: the other side of this imaginary border. The animal, for example,
Speaker 3: nature in certain religious societies it would be so pagan
Speaker 3: religions if you like and woman and on the other
Speaker 3: side or are relegated to the other side of this border.
Speaker 3: So society allows contact with the object, which might be
Speaker 3: through ritual or the carnivalesque and so forth. And I
Speaker 3: argue through film, the film puts us in direct contact,
Speaker 3: from the safety of our cinema sets, of course, with
Speaker 3: those things that threaten to destroy us. The most abject
Speaker 3: thing of all, Christova argues is the corpse. Now, the
Speaker 3: corpse in a mortuary is not abject. The corpses are
Speaker 3: not in the mortuary. Is an object, and it's been
Speaker 3: cleaned and dressed and made to look as if not dead,
Speaker 3: so that relatives can view the body, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3: This is not abject. What is abject is the corpse
Speaker 3: that's rotting away. Let's say, in Holland's film spore where
Speaker 3: the older woman goes out and starts murdering the hunters
Speaker 3: who are killing animals. They've killed her dogs, so she's
Speaker 3: the villagers think she's a witch, so she's abject. She's
Speaker 3: on the other side of this border, and an actual fact.
Speaker 3: They're right to be spared of it, because she murders
Speaker 3: these hunters one after the other in all sorts of
Speaker 3: gruesome ways. But in a few scenes we see rotting bodies,
Speaker 3: so they're abject because they've lost their borders. The body
Speaker 3: in the mortuary hasn't still dressed and cleaned, but the
Speaker 3: rotting body is where the flesh is decaying. The animals
Speaker 3: have been added, it's been ripped apart. The borders are gone,
Speaker 3: so it's completely abject. And this kind of abject body
Speaker 3: has to be the threat to civilized society, which considers
Speaker 3: anything that's lost its borders, borders defined by patriarchal ideology
Speaker 3: in many cultures still threatens us. But cinema enables us
Speaker 3: to come into contact with the object, particularly and surreal
Speaker 3: as cinema and horror and noir. So these three genres,
Speaker 3: if you like, I think can be best understood in
Speaker 3: terms of the objects so the object what it is
Speaker 3: really is, I think in the end, it creates an
Speaker 3: ontological crisis or crisis of meaning. So when we confront
Speaker 3: the object, we're asked to think again about what does
Speaker 3: it mean to be human? That's the most profound question
Speaker 3: I suppose that comes out of this because the object
Speaker 3: collapses boundaries between human and animal, particularly in the Cannibal film,
Speaker 3: between human and nature, which some people don't find at
Speaker 3: all object. But historically we've built all sorts of boundaries
Speaker 3: to protect us from the horrors of nature, which we're
Speaker 3: busily destroying at the moment, of course, at ourselves with it.
Speaker 10: When you talk about a border, I'm curious if you
Speaker 10: could apply that to the body as far as a
Speaker 10: film like In My Skin, where she is violating that
Speaker 10: border by digging in and cutting open and taking pieces
Speaker 10: of that. And you mentioned cannibalism as the self cannibalism
Speaker 10: that she's doing the skin.
Speaker 3: When you think about it, it's a very fragile covering,
Speaker 3: but it holds everything in all our insides, if you like.
Speaker 8: So.
Speaker 3: I think that's why in horror films there are so
Speaker 3: many scenes with knives, because the knife threatens to cut
Speaker 3: the skin open, at which point everything falls from the
Speaker 3: inside to the outside. So the abjective is all very
Speaker 3: much about the inside falling to the outside. And in
Speaker 3: terms of the human body, it's the skin that protects
Speaker 3: us in a way from the abject. And yes, the
Speaker 3: cannibal film is about tearing open the skin, not just
Speaker 3: revealing what's inside, and breaching the border so that the
Speaker 3: insides as they fall out, become abject in a way.
Speaker 3: And it's not so much the insides of the body
Speaker 3: as objects, but the abject comes about by the terrible nauseer,
Speaker 3: if you like, and the sense of uncanniness, even difference
Speaker 3: of queerness that threatens to engulf us. It's more to
Speaker 3: do with that feeling. Really, the film is so good
Speaker 3: at engendering. But yes, that's probably all horror films. It's
Speaker 3: the cannibal film really, if we see Seeds of cannibalism,
Speaker 3: the fat as you say, really focuses on objection. But
Speaker 3: that's why people love it as well. It's such a
Speaker 3: popular or it certainly was with Texas Chainsaw Massacre and
Speaker 3: The Hills Have Eyes and those classic cannibal films. These
Speaker 3: were the darling of the horror genre. In a way
Speaker 3: because they went to such extremes with New French extremism,
Speaker 3: the whole movement in France the turn of the twenty
Speaker 3: first century. These films play with the object in all
Speaker 3: sorts of shocking and gruesome ways. But the thing is
Speaker 3: we want to be shocked, I think.
Speaker 1: Anyway.
Speaker 3: I remember going to the cinema a lot with my
Speaker 3: good friend who sadly died not long ago, Leslie Stern,
Speaker 3: and she wrote, she written a lot on the cinema
Speaker 3: and a group of us we go every Friday to
Speaker 3: see horror movies, and she say, barbe, look, I just
Speaker 3: can't watch, so tell me when it's over. So these
Speaker 3: should be with their head between hernes, missing all the objects,
Speaker 3: but she's still see the horror movies. So I thought,
Speaker 3: that's another look that the horror film has created. That's
Speaker 3: looking away. Laura Mulby ruts her fantastic article on how
Speaker 3: cinema compels the look and the gaze and the male gaze,
Speaker 3: and there's a lot now on the female gays, but
Speaker 3: there's also when we can't gaze at all. It's just
Speaker 3: too shocking, which horror explores.
Speaker 10: You give that moment also in my skin where you
Speaker 10: can't trust the main character's own gaze when she looks
Speaker 10: down at her arm on a table and it's not
Speaker 10: connected to her body at all anymore.
Speaker 3: I thought that was beautifully surreal. I kept thinking of
Speaker 3: the Boonewell Film's Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, where the
Speaker 3: first is the exterminating Angel, where they all come to
Speaker 3: meet for dinner and they can't leave the room, and
Speaker 3: then there's discreete Charm where they're all trying to make
Speaker 3: an arrangement to have dinner but they can't actually get together.
Speaker 3: They're very surreal sort of scenes around the dinner table,
Speaker 3: and I thought she was playing there with surrealism as well,
Speaker 3: with her seena and what she's imagining the arm's doing
Speaker 3: and how she's grabbing it and trying to stop it.
Speaker 3: It's a bit Doctor Strangelove too.
Speaker 10: Imagine Nunsha in Andalou and there's that scene of the
Speaker 10: hand on the street or the disembodied hand and discreet
Speaker 10: Charm that's trying to choke the woman.
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. I love that scene. It's fantastic years.
Speaker 3: I'm sure that's part of what she's doing. I think
Speaker 3: that's the only scene that moves around the surreal. But
Speaker 3: it's important that she's put it there. I think because
Speaker 3: she's once she's telling us that she wants us to
Speaker 3: relate to the film. It's both real and surreal that
Speaker 3: we're dealing with the unconscious as well as the conscious.
Speaker 3: It's such a strange film and whole idea of self cannibalism.
Speaker 3: It's not really about that practice of self mutilation in
Speaker 3: a way, because as she begins to eat parts of
Speaker 3: her body, some of those scenes are very intimate and
Speaker 3: abject at the same time, which is an unusual conversation.
Speaker 3: I think you asked me earlier what I use the object,
Speaker 3: and I forgot to mention it. In The Monstrous Feminine,
Speaker 3: I mainly looked at horror films where the women female
Speaker 3: characters are represented as abject in terms of their reproductive
Speaker 3: sexual bodies. Harry becomes develops telekinesis powers when she's menstruating
Speaker 3: in the Brood, the mother gives birth to creatures in
Speaker 3: a sack outside her body, so that these are scenes
Speaker 3: of female reproductive life which are abject in a horror
Speaker 3: and Chris Davitt talks about the way the symbolic male
Speaker 3: paternal symbolic order constructs women's paternal body as abject, consciously
Speaker 3: or otherwise, so that woman is put cast outside when
Speaker 3: she's pregnant, when she's menstruating the bounds of society, she's
Speaker 3: a taboo figure in lots of societies when had to
Speaker 3: go into the menstrual huts when they're menstruated. Even today,
Speaker 3: in many societies men I'm not meant to have sex
Speaker 3: with a menstruating woman, strict Jewish societies still, and women
Speaker 3: too giving birth go to the birth in huts that
Speaker 3: they're separated ut. But what I did so I looked
Speaker 3: at William's bodies as sources of horror, even though they
Speaker 3: rebel Like Carrie in the recent book Return of the
Speaker 3: Monstrous Feminine, I argue that here in these films, many
Speaker 3: made by women, but not all. I think male directors
Speaker 3: too can present feminist arguments. In these films, such as Teeth,
Speaker 3: which is about a young girl who's actually got a
Speaker 3: vejared in Tatar, that the heroine deliberately actually goes on
Speaker 3: into a journey into objection to confront either her own
Speaker 3: reproductive self, but in many of these films to confront
Speaker 3: the male who threatens to it, particularly the violent male
Speaker 3: or the rapist.
Speaker 10: So I talk.
Speaker 3: About the journey into objection, where I talk about radical objection.
Speaker 3: So it's quite a change from the way I used
Speaker 3: objection in the first book. And I think this has
Speaker 3: happened because most of the films I talk about are
Speaker 3: actually directed by women who say, okay, so our what
Speaker 3: is are abject? All right, let's what does this mean.
Speaker 3: Let's open it all up for discussion, as do Quno
Speaker 3: does in Rauw and I think Marina.
Speaker 9: Does in My Skin.
Speaker 3: So it's a sort of completely interesting change of emphasis.
Speaker 3: So you get and I argue this happens pretty much
Speaker 3: in the beginning. Starts at the beginnings of the New Century,
Speaker 3: as women are becoming a lot more vocal about themselves
Speaker 3: and their rights. You get hashtag me too, which actually
Speaker 3: begins earlier, around two thousand and eight, but it really
Speaker 3: comes to the fall a decade later with the Harvey One,
Speaker 3: same case and so forth. But I think what we
Speaker 3: get around the New Century is what happened in sixty eight.
Speaker 3: In sixty eight, you get all those revolutions. You get
Speaker 3: the feminist revolution, you get Black power, you get the
Speaker 3: Green movement, you get the anti war movement and so forth.
Speaker 3: And I think what's happening now is there's a new feminism,
Speaker 3: there's a new not so much it's a green movement,
Speaker 3: but it's a kind of global warming and save the
Speaker 3: Earth movement. Then we've got the new black politics that
Speaker 3: have occurred in America, particularly with the Black Lives Matter movement.
Speaker 3: So there's a whole radicalization I think happening in this
Speaker 3: new century, which is reflected in so many films, particularly
Speaker 3: these films directed by women, So it's fascinating. And of
Speaker 3: course there's the whole queer movement and all sorts of
Speaker 3: inflections of that around different kinds of sexuality as well.
Speaker 3: And on top of that, we also now have a
Speaker 3: fascinating movement which begins I think with the human animal,
Speaker 3: with animal liberation, which becomes the kind of new movement
Speaker 3: into human animal studies and now has moved more into
Speaker 3: human non human theorists looking at films and saying, there
Speaker 3: are so many films now that are about our relationship
Speaker 3: also to the non human, not just in terms of animal,
Speaker 3: but in terms of ecosystems, in terms of the earth,
Speaker 3: in terms of objects sci fi, the humanoid, the robotic,
Speaker 3: and so forth, and so in fact, I'm just coaging
Speaker 3: a book with a colleague which is called Non Human Cinema.
Speaker 3: So we've got a whole lot of fantastic ess acts
Speaker 3: where the authors are writing not just about human and
Speaker 3: an animal, but human. And you know, there's an essay
Speaker 3: on mountains in film, for example, that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Because and all this has happened with this smooth called
Speaker 3: the Non Human Turn, which begins in the last decade
Speaker 3: or so. Donn and Harroway says, we have never been human.
Speaker 3: The humans are construct which the horror film knows perfectly well.
Speaker 3: We construct ourselves as civilized and it's completely different from
Speaker 3: the animal.
Speaker 10: But we're not.
Speaker 3: We are an animal, and civilization is a veneer in
Speaker 3: a lot of cases, which Horror of course explores as
Speaker 3: the veneer falls away. Which is why the monstrous figure
Speaker 3: the monsters Frankenstein onwards is so fascinating and in most
Speaker 3: horror films, the figure we identify with as Doucono says
Speaker 3: that she finds the monster fascinating because the monster is rebelling,
Speaker 3: and Robin Wood said this before Ducono. The monster is
Speaker 3: empathetic and sympathetic because the monster is the one that's
Speaker 3: rebelling against social norms, hierarchies, ideologies, cruelty, the dominant order
Speaker 3: which represses the other, whether it's woman or queer or black,
Speaker 3: and so on. These incredible changes taking place right now.
Speaker 3: And of course you've got an even greater challenge happening
Speaker 3: now in the States with the threat that's happening to
Speaker 3: the First Amendment, for example, And I think that could
Speaker 3: well le to a new social movement to try and
Speaker 3: protect the First Amendment. It's unusual, isn't it. Who would
Speaker 3: have ever thought. I've been watching with interest the Jimmy
Speaker 3: Kimmel Show. It's been going on around that. It's interesting
Speaker 3: how a figure from popular culture as Girlvin are such support.
Speaker 3: But I think popular culture is the most radical form
Speaker 3: of culture myself.
Speaker 10: Your new book sounds fascinating. I've been hoping to read
Speaker 10: some very low written essays around things like Megan and
Speaker 10: Companyon or even x Mark, and just this whole idea
Speaker 10: of this sexualization of the false female and how false
Speaker 10: is that female versus a real woman.
Speaker 3: Yes, ex Mecanner is really interesting. Although I know I've
Speaker 3: been criticized some people argue there is a sort of
Speaker 3: threat of racism running through it in terms of the
Speaker 3: other robotic women. But it poses some fabulous questions. The
Speaker 3: one I just love is under the Skin the Scarlet Johansson.
Speaker 3: It's just amazing. He took ten years to make that film.
Speaker 3: It's perfect in every way I think. I think it's
Speaker 3: really powerful, and it's also looking at the real woman,
Speaker 3: the alien woman, and once the alien decides to become
Speaker 3: a human woman, of course she's doomed. It reminds me
Speaker 3: of Eyes without a Face, the Frontou movie, where the
Speaker 3: alien separates out from her fake human self and holds
Speaker 3: her face to her face.
Speaker 10: I thought that was amazing. It reminded me a little
Speaker 10: bit of Annihilation with the again that double of Navy
Speaker 10: Portman towards the NDADA.
Speaker 3: Gosh, that's an interesting film. Look, I think too, the
Speaker 3: interesting thing because I'm so interested perssical figures. I think
Speaker 3: that shimmer relates to the ancient I know it's pronounced
Speaker 3: him that you could pronounce it a shimmer of that
Speaker 3: ancient creature that's made up of all sorts of different animals,
Speaker 3: I think, And that's also an interesting The shimmer is
Speaker 3: now used as a term a part of the DNA
Speaker 3: our DNA, which figures strongly in that film too. I
Speaker 3: think it's I think it's origins go right back. I
Speaker 3: suppose that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, no, science fiction,
Speaker 3: horror is and of course the alien quartets are just wonderful.
Speaker 1: Have you watched Alien Earth?
Speaker 10: Oh no, I haven't.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it. It's very interesting.
Speaker 10: Yeah, okay, that's had very good reviews, hasn't it. I think, yeah,
Speaker 10: I enjoyed it. There were a couple little plot things
Speaker 10: whereas like I'm not sure if I buy that, but
Speaker 10: overall and again a real idea of what is it
Speaker 10: to be human? They break down things into three different
Speaker 10: type of non human entities right at the beginning and
Speaker 10: play with that.
Speaker 1: Through the rest of us.
Speaker 10: That's right in my alley at there you Go, There
Speaker 10: you Go. Great. I wanted to ask a little bit
Speaker 10: more about switching from him in my skin to Raw
Speaker 10: and just the difference with that one. Whereas within my
Speaker 10: skin she's taking in herself and eating herself, whereas with
Speaker 10: Raw it is much more of the outside and being
Speaker 10: kind of separated out, not just as a young woman,
Speaker 10: but also as it's like her family is a different
Speaker 10: creature altogether that have to end imbibe human flesh.
Speaker 3: I've got a particular theory about that, and I don't
Speaker 3: know how conscious this is with Juliet du Kuno, but
Speaker 3: she's kind of educated and she herself is very interested
Speaker 3: in mythology. Of course, Detaine is based very much on
Speaker 3: the Titans and the whole all the mythology around them.
Speaker 3: So what you get in Raw, the difference between Raw
Speaker 3: and in Mass Raw is more of a conventional cannibal
Speaker 3: film in that she's eating the other and this becomes
Speaker 3: abject because she's collapsing the boundaries between self and other,
Speaker 3: tearing away the skin, opening up the body. Cannibalism, of course,
Speaker 3: is a taboo, so she's immediately this is abject. But
Speaker 3: there you get a cannibal family, which in itself is
Speaker 3: not unusual. But what's unusual about it is that it's
Speaker 3: not the father who's the original cannibal, it's the mother.
Speaker 8: Now.
Speaker 3: Freud's theory of cannibalism, which I always take as a
Speaker 3: kind of symbolic allegorical story, but he argues that in
Speaker 3: primitive early times, society or culture is instigated or comes
Speaker 3: about very gradually because of the institution of three taboos
Speaker 3: that force people to become so called civilized. And there's
Speaker 3: a taboo on cannibalism, the taboo on murder, and the
Speaker 3: taboo on incest, interestingly, all central in the horror film,
Speaker 3: and the taboo on cannibal emerges because he argues, in
Speaker 3: very ancient times, the father was the center and the
Speaker 3: power of the klan or the group, and the father
Speaker 3: kept the women to himself. Eventually, the sons rose up
Speaker 3: against the father because he'd become such a despotic figure
Speaker 3: and murdered him. You probably know the story. It's in
Speaker 3: Totem and taboo and murder the father. But then they're
Speaker 3: so overcome with guilty. What they do is they engage
Speaker 3: in what was used to be known as the totem meal,
Speaker 3: where people and we still do today through communion, actually
Speaker 3: would eat part of the totem animal, the sacred animal
Speaker 3: in a festival to honor the animal, and you could
Speaker 3: only eat that animal on that festival day. And it
Speaker 3: was usually the animal that they actually was central to
Speaker 3: their lives.
Speaker 1: Equalds.
Speaker 3: So in some areas it was the wolf would be
Speaker 3: the total animal, for example, or certain or a bird
Speaker 3: or whatever. So they eat part of the father in
Speaker 3: a sort of meal of honor, and then as a
Speaker 3: totemic meal, and then they say, never again will this happen.
Speaker 3: And this is when they bring a taboo on cannibalism,
Speaker 3: or that's instituted around the eating of the father. The
Speaker 3: taboo on murders also instituted around the eating of the father,
Speaker 3: and the taboo on insists also because around this time
Speaker 3: exogamy is brought in as a practice, and that means
Speaker 3: that the men of a certain group or tribe could
Speaker 3: not marry or have sex with any of the women
Speaker 3: in their group. There was too much infarting over the
Speaker 3: women and it was destroying the clans. So women had
Speaker 3: to marry out someone from a different So these three
Speaker 3: taboos on exogamy, incests, and cannibalism were still we're still
Speaker 3: with it something. They're all still taboo, even though they're
Speaker 3: all violated all the time. So what Raw does is
Speaker 3: it's not the sons who rise up and eat the father.
Speaker 3: It's the wife, the mother who's the cannibal, and the
Speaker 3: father the husband is letting her eat him slowly, not
Speaker 3: enough to kill him. But in the end, in the
Speaker 3: final scene, which has to be the film, ends as
Speaker 3: he opens his shirt and shows his chest, which is
Speaker 3: a bit like Esther's body. It's wounds and healing and
Speaker 3: more wounds and so forth where she's been living off him.
Speaker 3: But by agreement, he's agreed to let her do this.
Speaker 3: So that's an argument that society and culture now in
Speaker 3: these changing times, is all about originates with the mother
Speaker 3: of the feast. It's the mother who makes the feast,
Speaker 3: who creates, who gives birth, who is the origin, the
Speaker 3: point of origin, and the male accepts this and agrees
Speaker 3: to become part of this in an agreement. Rather in
Speaker 3: the earlier Freudian story, women play no right at all,
Speaker 3: and this has passed down through the daughters, not the sons.
Speaker 3: Rawa is a kind of reworking of the Freudian story
Speaker 3: of the origins of cannibalism, the taboo on cannibalism, and
Speaker 3: the beginnings of sociality or society or civilization. I think
Speaker 3: she's actually challenging all the all cannibal movies, which always
Speaker 3: make until the original cannibal movie Trouble every Day the
Speaker 3: clear to he. I think that's the first cannibal film
Speaker 3: with a female cannibal, a really strong female cannibal There
Speaker 3: are suggestions of female cannibals in the nineteen seventies attaining
Speaker 3: cannibal movies that John so.
Speaker 1: I think she's.
Speaker 3: Challenging the myth that cannibalism. The taboo on cannibalism begins
Speaker 3: with the father and the sons in the male and
Speaker 3: it's now a matter of complete change whether taboo on
Speaker 3: canadidism and society in culture are established via the mother
Speaker 3: and the sisters and with the agreement of the father.
Speaker 3: It's certainly playing with the original Broadian story. That's for
Speaker 3: yours to be giving a more feminist interpretation of this taboo.
Speaker 3: I only really treked about the cannibal meal and so forth.
Speaker 3: But I think it's also presents such an interesting critique,
Speaker 3: as Dude Corno does, of the male, the sort of
Speaker 3: very metro aggressive male culture at the veterinary school with
Speaker 3: all the hazing rituals, for example. I think it's also
Speaker 3: a critique of the treatment of the animals all throughout
Speaker 3: those quite surreal nightmarish images we get. Suddenly you're in
Speaker 3: a room and you realize it's full of either dead
Speaker 3: animals or animals preserved, and it's an area that's hard
Speaker 3: he discussed, except there's that long discussion in the film
Speaker 3: about the guy who talks about raping raping a pig,
Speaker 3: Is it.
Speaker 10: A monkey or any it's right, which I think is
Speaker 10: playing on that whole aids comes from monkeys myth.
Speaker 3: It is because her gay friend. I think he points
Speaker 3: that out to him as well. She says, I'm sure
Speaker 3: you know the monkey has feelings. And she also says
Speaker 3: that the monkeys can recognize themselves in mirrors, which is
Speaker 3: a red reference to Lekhan's theory the mirror phase, which
Speaker 3: I thought, there goes Couno again.
Speaker 10: She slips all of his things.
Speaker 3: In the other interesting thing, I discovered the actor Laurent
Speaker 3: luke Pan plays in both films, and he's the actor
Speaker 3: who plays the very intolerant boyfriend in My Skin, and
Speaker 3: he's the father in raw So that must be deliberate.
Speaker 3: He's come to terms now with the female book, which
Speaker 3: wasn't happening in In My Skin.
Speaker 10: I was horrified, are you still working these days?
Speaker 3: Retired in twenty sixteen, I've.
Speaker 10: Never been busier. I bet that's what it sounds like
Speaker 10: with your book projects.
Speaker 3: I did return back. Rawledge got in touch and said, look,
Speaker 3: do you think you could write another fifteen thousand words
Speaker 3: for The Monstrous Feminine and bring it up to date.
Speaker 3: I was, yeah, sure, the pandemic had just started. What
Speaker 3: am I going to do? I said yes, But then
Speaker 3: I started looking at all the films that horror films
Speaker 3: of the last two decades. I was just knocked out.
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe the number of women directing horror movies.
Speaker 3: And so I got back and said, look, I just
Speaker 3: can't possibly cover the changes that have happened in fifteen
Speaker 3: thousand words. I can give you a new book, but
Speaker 3: I can't give you a small section, even though it's
Speaker 3: side the contract for them. So they yes, go ahead return.
Speaker 3: I was a bit exhausted after and I thought, oh gosh,
Speaker 3: thank goodness, that's finished. And then about two or three
Speaker 3: months later, I get an email, so, when can we
Speaker 3: expect the expanded section of the original book?
Speaker 10: That's what do you mean? They still wanted it. So
Speaker 10: I did it.
Speaker 3: But I got thirty thousand words out of them, and
Speaker 3: I added a new section called The Monstrous Feminine as
Speaker 3: non Human because I've become interested in the non human.
Speaker 3: But that was just amazing. It was such a shock.
Speaker 3: When can we expect section there, but there's just there
Speaker 3: was too much to ignore.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 3: I was contacted recently by two women who were doing
Speaker 3: a special edition of a journal on women and horror
Speaker 3: to write an afterward, which I said sure, and then
Speaker 3: they dropped back to me the other day and they said,
Speaker 3: oh my goodness. They said, we put out a call
Speaker 3: for papers, we've had over two hundred and fifty. We
Speaker 3: can't believe it. And now they're doing a companion a book.
Speaker 3: I can't remember that they're doing it with Oxford or Cambridge.
Speaker 3: I can't remember which one they got. They couldn't believe
Speaker 3: the response. When we my colleague and I put out
Speaker 3: the call for papers on film and a non human globally
Speaker 3: through Sensus of Cinema, we thought maybe we'd get about
Speaker 3: thirty responses. We got over one hundred and fifty and
Speaker 3: we can only publish fifteen, which we did and that
Speaker 3: went really well. And then I got contacted by the
Speaker 3: editor from Exeter Press, Becky, and she said, would you
Speaker 3: be interested in doing a book on this topic? And
Speaker 3: we thought, why not. We've got all this fantastic already.
Speaker 3: We don't even have to put out another gulp of papers.
Speaker 3: So that's clearly an interesting new area that's developing in film.
Speaker 1: Is there a deep for that?
Speaker 3: One manuscript goes in this week completed. I think they're
Speaker 3: hoping to bring it out this time next year.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. This has been
Speaker 1: so very time with you.
Speaker 10: I lovely. Yeah, anytime you have an open invitation, anytime
Speaker 10: you have anything you want to talk about, I'm here
Speaker 10: for you. All right, fantastic.
Speaker 7: All right.
Speaker 1: We were back and we were talking about raw and
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that sheet scene. We get
Speaker 1: a little bit. There's a moment between her looking at
Speaker 1: Andrea and playing the game that we're talking about, and
Speaker 1: that other moment where she's dancing in front of the mirror.
Speaker 1: You cut back to a room and there's a sheet
Speaker 1: over a shape, and then the sheet blows away and
Speaker 1: it's that dog that was being dissected. And then later
Speaker 1: on after the dance scene where she's kissing them and everything,
Speaker 1: then you see her under this and actually, sorry, I
Speaker 1: take it back, after that the video game scene to
Speaker 1: kill yourself, Kill yourself moment her under the sheet. At
Speaker 1: one point I thought I heard the director talk about
Speaker 1: how that was like a withdrawal scene. And that they
Speaker 1: called on the moment from Trainspotting to kind of show
Speaker 1: that because it does look like she's in withdrawals, but
Speaker 1: at the same time, it feels like there's people outside
Speaker 1: of that sheet and she can hear things as well, right,
Speaker 1: And at first I was thinking that she was going
Speaker 1: to be beaten through the sheet, like this was another
Speaker 1: stupid hazing thing, but it just it's such a strange
Speaker 1: but beautiful scene, and especially that blue that comes through
Speaker 1: the sheet, that light blue, that that permeates everything, because
Speaker 1: we're gonna get that blue later on when she gets
Speaker 1: doused with paint, which again, of course reminds me of
Speaker 1: Parallel Fu. But I love that whole thing of her
Speaker 1: in the blue and the guy with the yellow and
Speaker 1: they go make yourselves green.
Speaker 8: A lot of stuff in this film which tends to
Speaker 8: move between real and surreal, and just like sliding back
Speaker 8: and forth between them that your initial response is, oh
Speaker 8: my god, it's another one of these stupid hazing things.
Speaker 8: And then when she throws the sheet off and wakes up,
Speaker 8: I felt like that was her sort of nightmare of
Speaker 8: how she was physically feeling and whether it was withdrawal.
Speaker 8: I feel like what it should really be is it's
Speaker 8: her hunger rising up because she hasn't fed, and so
Speaker 8: she's going through all this really painful bodily discomfort because
Speaker 8: her body's craving something that she's not giving it. And
Speaker 8: so I felt like it was a visual manifestation of
Speaker 8: how she was feeling, but with the distraction or with
Speaker 8: the misdirection of making us think, oh no, this is
Speaker 8: like one of those hazing things. And it's like from
Speaker 8: Full Metal Jacket where the guy gets hit with the
Speaker 8: soap all he's held down in bed because he behaved improperly.
Speaker 8: So like that was the first thing that came to
Speaker 8: my mind when I had seen it, was it's like
Speaker 8: that scene in Full Metal Jacket and it's horrible. And
Speaker 8: then I was like, oh wait, I think this is
Speaker 8: just a reflection of how she feels.
Speaker 7: My thought was it was a dream, but I think
Speaker 7: it is a withdrawal, and it is like a hallucination
Speaker 7: from the withdrawal dream hallucination withdrawal because also I don't
Speaker 7: know if you noticed, but there's a couple of times
Speaker 7: when the rash comes back on her and when she's
Speaker 7: at one point using her sister's medats medicine cabinet. She
Speaker 7: notices that her sister has the same cream, and so
Speaker 7: that has to be like when they're in withdrawal, that rash,
Speaker 7: you know that. I think that's again a very subtle
Speaker 7: thing that you have to notice throughout and I have
Speaker 7: a feeling, yeah, it was withdrawal.
Speaker 1: I love the echo to of her with all that
Speaker 1: blue paint and when she's washing herself off, and we're
Speaker 1: going to get kind of the mirror image of that,
Speaker 1: almost the negative image of that with her sister later
Speaker 1: on when after she kills Adrian spoilers after she kills
Speaker 1: Adrian and she's covered in blood, and Justine's kind of
Speaker 1: last real act that we see with their sister before
Speaker 1: she's in jail is cleaning her off, getting all the
Speaker 1: blood off of her, as opposed to hear with Justine
Speaker 1: with all the blue paint and finding that little chunk
Speaker 1: in her cheek and eating that and just finally like
Speaker 1: getting a little bit of satisfaction from the hunger that
Speaker 1: she has. I mean, that poor guy in the yellow
Speaker 1: paint doesn't know what hits him, and the red of
Speaker 1: the bitten through lip or the missing lip makes it
Speaker 1: even more stark against that yellow paint.
Speaker 8: And again she goes to something that people can identify with,
Speaker 8: and this hays like the hair is something that that
Speaker 8: gross feeling of having hair in your mouth, but also
Speaker 8: if you accidentally bite your lip, or if your lips
Speaker 8: are too dry and they crack open like you can.
Speaker 8: You have a visceral connection to both of those images
Speaker 8: that is very strong, whereas something less familiar might not
Speaker 8: have hit as hard, even though you could have gone
Speaker 8: with something more spectacular, like she could have ripped off
Speaker 8: a big.
Speaker 9: Chunk of bit.
Speaker 8: I feel like she keeps it at a level where
Speaker 8: we can identify with it easily, and that in many
Speaker 8: ways makes it a stronger thing because we do go,
Speaker 8: oh wow, I know what, that's disgusting, that hurts.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate too that it is the end of
Speaker 1: this whole hazing time when the discovery of Adrian's body happens,
Speaker 1: that we hear those little honks from the horn, and
Speaker 1: you get those beautiful shots of the campus again going
Speaker 1: back to that brutalist architecture, and you get some war
Speaker 1: shots now off some of the students kind of coming out.
Speaker 1: It's almost like, you know, a brand new day kind
Speaker 1: of thing, and then you know, cut to her in
Speaker 1: bed with him, and it's like, okay, well they've had
Speaker 1: this passionate night together and you already know that she
Speaker 1: might have moments where she doesn't remember things. She woke
Speaker 1: up pretty messed up earlier. Here she wakes up and
Speaker 1: she's got that big fucking gash on her face from
Speaker 1: her sister biting her, and it's just this really lovely
Speaker 1: scene of this guy in bed with her and ends
Speaker 1: up being I wrote in my notes, it's like The
Speaker 1: Godfather when she discovers Yeah.
Speaker 7: It totally, it totally is that's really that's a really
Speaker 7: great reference.
Speaker 9: Totally.
Speaker 8: Yeah, especially the way she feels the blood, because I
Speaker 8: think in The Godfather that's how he realizes. It's feeling
Speaker 8: the wetness that makes him realize there's something wrong. But
Speaker 8: that scene was incredibly well done, and you wasn't there
Speaker 8: also blood on her face. I don't even know if
Speaker 8: she sampled some of his flesh or or not.
Speaker 1: I don't think she does. She's got blood on her face,
Speaker 1: but it's from the bite from her sister.
Speaker 8: From just from the bite.
Speaker 9: The way she discovered it was she was reaching under
Speaker 9: the cover. She was like caressing his body, and then
Speaker 9: she suddenly pulds her hand out and her hands covered
Speaker 9: in blood, and then she starts She actually embraces him
Speaker 9: and says she's sorry because she thought she did it.
Speaker 9: So she then starts messing with the body, and that's
Speaker 9: how she gets blood on herself.
Speaker 8: I thought, there, you see something earlier, but I I
Speaker 8: don't know. But the sense of also like having these
Speaker 8: blackouts or not knowing exactly what she've done again kind
Speaker 8: of takes me back to were wolves because it's that
Speaker 8: sense of you transform, you do something horrific, and then
Speaker 8: you transform back, and then whether it's like a defense
Speaker 8: mechanism that you can't remember, or that it's actually part
Speaker 8: of that whole werewolf mythology that you can't remember. Like
Speaker 8: that also made me think that this was more of
Speaker 8: a go were wolfy kind of tail.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, after she finds all that blood, she has
Speaker 1: it all over her body now and she looks what
Speaker 1: does she do? She looks at herself in the mirror
Speaker 1: and starts looking at her mouth and pulling down on
Speaker 1: her mouth, like what have I done? And she blames herself.
Speaker 1: And I think that might be one of the last
Speaker 1: mirror shots until the I would call it a mirror
Speaker 1: shot with her and her sister in prison. What an
Speaker 1: amazing shot of those two faces kind of merged together
Speaker 1: before they break apart, and it's like, now one person
Speaker 1: has their trip that they're taking, the other person has
Speaker 1: their road that they have to go down. And I
Speaker 1: just find that wonderful, the way that they kind of
Speaker 1: break apart at that moment. And I don't know what
Speaker 1: the hell's going to happen to Alexia in prison. I mean,
Speaker 1: she's going to have to figure out something when it
Speaker 1: comes to how to feed herself.
Speaker 8: We have seen in prison fight scenes people biting each
Speaker 8: other's ear off, so I'm sure she could probably find
Speaker 8: a way, not that she wouldn't be punished, but I
Speaker 8: think there would be opportunity to attack your fellow prisoners.
Speaker 8: But also in that scene, the way Justine presses her
Speaker 8: chewed off cheek up against the glass like she doesn't
Speaker 8: You've seen a lot of scenes where people will kiss
Speaker 8: each other through the glass and press their lips, but
Speaker 8: she presses the section of her cheek that Alexia has
Speaker 8: bitten off up to her as the.
Speaker 7: Flipoff that's right after Alexia there's a flipoff and she's
Speaker 7: showing her bitten off finger like you did this to me,
Speaker 7: And that actually reminds me of going back again to
Speaker 7: the Adrian's death scene, the sister Alexis is sitting in
Speaker 7: the exact same spot where I believe that's the exact
Speaker 7: same spot where she was eating her finger. It's kind
Speaker 7: of like, all right, you ain't mi, you sat there
Speaker 7: in that spot eating my finger.
Speaker 9: I'm sitting here. I just killed your love the person
Speaker 9: you have a crush Sean, which is I don't know.
Speaker 7: To me, that's sort of like what's going on because
Speaker 7: it's I think it's the exact same spot. And then,
Speaker 7: like you said, yeah, in the scene again it's that competition.
Speaker 7: But here's my finger that you bit off, here's my
Speaker 7: cheek that So it's cool all the way that gues
Speaker 7: back and forth in a really sisterly way.
Speaker 1: Well, we've talked about so many times that the movie
Speaker 1: kind of pulls the rug out from under us. So
Speaker 1: we are now convinced with Justine that she's the one
Speaker 1: that killed Adrian and has eaten his leg. And then
Speaker 1: we find the ski pole which we saw earlier, and
Speaker 1: then we find Alexia there in that position. I think
Speaker 1: you're totally right. I think that is exactly where that
Speaker 1: finger eating took place. But we find out at the
Speaker 1: same time that Justine finds out that no, it might
Speaker 1: not have been her, it might have been or probably
Speaker 1: was her sister, and her sister just having all the
Speaker 1: blood all the way down, just that she looks very
Speaker 1: Angelina Jolie to me, in that final moment where she's
Speaker 1: looking up at her and she's kind of got those
Speaker 1: same eyes and just like you realize that she's a monster,
Speaker 1: but like to your point, Beth, she's such a pitiable
Speaker 1: monster and such a sympathetic monster where it's just like,
Speaker 1: I don't think she could have helped.
Speaker 8: Herself, and again that's the werewolf, I think.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 7: To me, the way she has the blood all over
Speaker 7: her face is like a little kid who just ate
Speaker 7: ice cream. Like to me, it's more like she really
Speaker 7: enjoyed that meal, you know what I mean.
Speaker 9: Felt that way to me.
Speaker 8: The father talks about Alexia as like she was the
Speaker 8: one who was wild, Like maybe that's the difference between
Speaker 8: the two of them, in the sense like the mom
Speaker 8: thought maybe she could control Justine's hunger because she didn't
Speaker 8: display that innate wildness to begin with, but they make
Speaker 8: reference to the fact like Alexia did whatever she wanted,
Speaker 8: like we couldn't control her as a child, And yes,
Speaker 8: so that reference to her like being the kid with
Speaker 8: all the jam on her face or something after she's
Speaker 8: gotten into the jar of something. But yeah, I don't
Speaker 8: think she can control herself. I think Alexia had gotten
Speaker 8: to a point of managing her hunger, but I don't
Speaker 8: know if it was the fact that the sister was
Speaker 8: turning as well or just the level of the hunger increasing.
Speaker 8: But I think she loses control at the end. I
Speaker 8: think that that feeding that she does on her roommate
Speaker 8: is something that she couldn't hide in the same way
Speaker 8: she could hide those car crashes. So I don't know
Speaker 8: if it was that that was uncontrollable or you keep
Speaker 8: bringing up like the sister rivalry thing, like it's like
Speaker 8: you took my boyfriend, I'll take your boyfriend kind of thing.
Speaker 8: Was she doing it just to hurt her or was
Speaker 8: it just my hunger's uncontrollable right now and this guy
Speaker 8: is right here and I'm going to.
Speaker 1: Feast, and it feels like there's just a momentary fourth
Speaker 1: wall break at the end when she's talking with her
Speaker 1: father and she looks up and I think it's supposed
Speaker 1: to be her looking at her father, looking him in
Speaker 1: his eyes, but the way that she raises her eyes,
Speaker 1: she kind of looks more at us. And then it's
Speaker 1: funny that the father really gets the last word and
Speaker 1: is the last image with those massive scars all over
Speaker 1: his chest. Like if there's one moment that reminds me
Speaker 1: of like a martyr's or something, it's that with the
Speaker 1: just the old wounds that we get to see, and
Speaker 1: it's just him saying, I'm sure you'll find a solution, honey,
Speaker 1: and then boom cut too Raw with that music pounding again.
Speaker 1: It's like, holy shit, It's like you just took us
Speaker 1: on this ride, and I am so thankful for it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I tried to watch Titane and I just
Speaker 1: had a hard time getting into it.
Speaker 9: Oh I love it.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, please tell me what you enjoyed about that one,
Speaker 1: because I just had a hard time with it.
Speaker 8: It was just weirder like the Love It, but it
Speaker 8: was still like dealing with this sense of family. So
Speaker 8: part of what I like about Raw also is that
Speaker 8: it's really not about cannibalism. It's like zombie films. Zombie
Speaker 8: films aren't really about zombies a lot of times, or
Speaker 8: the best ones aren't there about something else. The zombies
Speaker 8: are this blank slate. So to me, the cannibalism in
Speaker 8: this was a mechanism to explore this sense of family ties,
Speaker 8: because what the father's telling her is is I love
Speaker 8: your mother, and we've come to this arrangement that we
Speaker 8: can manage what's going on, and I hope you figure
Speaker 8: out something similar. I don't know if he's saying, find
Speaker 8: a guy who will let you feed on him now
Speaker 8: and again, but and again I tried. I watched it again,
Speaker 8: and I tried looking at the scars to see were
Speaker 8: some fresher than others or were they all old, because
Speaker 8: that's the one thing I couldn't figure out. Has the
Speaker 8: mom stopped feeding? Has she gone vegetarian because she's been
Speaker 8: able to control her personal hunger and those scars are
Speaker 8: all from the past. I wasn't sure. And I was
Speaker 8: trying to look like if there was one fresh wound,
Speaker 8: one that looked a little raw at that point. So
Speaker 8: that's something I don't know and I can't figure out.
Speaker 8: But again, what I like about her film is she
Speaker 8: doesn't she could have had him said like, oh yeah,
Speaker 8: mom fed off would be last night. No, like she
Speaker 8: just plays it out and lets us think about what
Speaker 8: some of these options could be in which one of
Speaker 8: them might be happening. But yeah, that was the one
Speaker 8: thing I was I was trying to look very carefully
Speaker 8: to see or any of those new.
Speaker 9: My interpretation was that this is what they do. He
Speaker 9: probably has them.
Speaker 7: He's covered head to toe wherever his clothing can cover him.
Speaker 9: Yeah, that was the impression I got, And this is
Speaker 9: how we managed.
Speaker 7: She just apparently you don't need that much meat, and
Speaker 7: they were just nibbling on the dead passengers in the
Speaker 7: the sister was just nibbling on the brainers.
Speaker 9: It does seem like they just need a little bit
Speaker 9: they don't need to have.
Speaker 7: Obviously, even with the leg at the end, Adran's leg
Speaker 7: is just it's.
Speaker 9: Not like she she went to town completely on him.
Speaker 8: She ate a lot of that leg, a lot of that.
Speaker 9: Seemly they don't need. They don't need a ton of
Speaker 9: ton of human flesh.
Speaker 8: But also if that's like the most she ate of
Speaker 8: human flesh, that kind of explains kind of her like
Speaker 8: weird state where it's like when you eat too much
Speaker 8: food and your stomach's too full and you just can't move.
Speaker 8: Like maybe those other times she fed, she was trying
Speaker 8: to be careful and not if you devour the body
Speaker 8: too much, the hospital people or the emergency crew is
Speaker 8: going to notice, like, wait, that doesn't look like an
Speaker 8: injury you would have gotten in a car crash. That
Speaker 8: looks like human bites all over. So I don't know
Speaker 8: if she was controlling herself more when she was feeding
Speaker 8: in that way, and this was a time when she
Speaker 8: was just like, I'm just gonna go ahead and eat
Speaker 8: as much as I want. And then she goes into
Speaker 8: that food coma and what do you like?
Speaker 1: But we were talking about Titane and I was curious, why
Speaker 1: you enjoyed that one.
Speaker 8: I have not seen it in a while. I think
Speaker 8: one of the things I really liked. I love films
Speaker 8: where you can't tell where they're going. I like films
Speaker 8: that surprise you along the way. And again, this film
Speaker 8: really felt to be about family. This was a father
Speaker 8: and a daughter in this case, and I just like
Speaker 8: the way it played with everything and the visuals of
Speaker 8: the music, and that was also amazing. It was both
Speaker 8: genre and gender bending, both at the same time, and
Speaker 8: I just appreciated how it pushed the envelope, like it
Speaker 8: wasn't like anything else that I was seeing. And I
Speaker 8: love the fact that it was a woman directing it
Speaker 8: and taking it to extreme places. I also liked films
Speaker 8: that go to extremes like that really takes something, take
Speaker 8: an idea, and just go for it with no limits,
Speaker 8: and I felt like she did that with that. I
Speaker 8: don't think I fully understood it, Like when I got
Speaker 8: to the end, I'm not one hundred percent sure of
Speaker 8: maybe what I should take away, but I felt like
Speaker 8: the cinematic experience of it was so enthralling. Like for me,
Speaker 8: if films are dark, or their themes are hard, if
Speaker 8: the filmmaking is intoxicating, I walk away from those films
Speaker 8: just with this kind of joyous feeling, despite the fact
Speaker 8: that the content might not make you feel that way,
Speaker 8: but I get so excited by like the filmmaking. And
Speaker 8: that's what I felt with Titan, Like I felt excited
Speaker 8: by the filmmaking and by where she was going and
Speaker 8: that she wasn't playing it safe or I'm going to
Speaker 8: tone it down now I'm going to try to be
Speaker 8: a little more mainstream or a little more commercial. She
Speaker 8: was like, nope, I'm going to go even further that way.
Speaker 7: The story structure is really aw like it's it's unlike,
Speaker 7: it's very not a normal story structure. It's there's no
Speaker 7: it's you know, it's an unfamiliar kind of story structure,
Speaker 7: which kind of makes it really cool.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad that a great thing. On that
Speaker 1: audio commentary where Westwood was asking her, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: you're gonna, you know, change genres, you know, is it
Speaker 1: always gonna be body horror? And she's like, you might
Speaker 1: as well just ask me if I'm gonna start speaking
Speaker 1: Japanese in a week, you know, Like, no, it's this
Speaker 1: is what I do, this is what I like. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, great. You know, to hear that her
Speaker 1: new film, thank you Susan for turning me on to Alpha.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to see that one too. Also body Horror,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, great, yeah, make this your thing
Speaker 1: because even her early film Junior very body horror as well,
Speaker 1: and same actresses raw very much like you know, talking
Speaker 1: about peeling the skin back and stuff. It's very much
Speaker 1: a metamorphosis that happens in that one as well, where
Speaker 1: like she grows overnight and becomes a woman, like being
Speaker 1: born from a cocoon. Almost.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's super cool that Justine named Justine pops
Speaker 7: into Titan Te. It's the same actor, same name, and
Speaker 7: she even uses the name Alexia.
Speaker 3: Again.
Speaker 7: I like that too, when directors play with their I'm
Speaker 7: sure she'll be doing that movie to movie kind of
Speaker 7: playing with the characters visiting each movie.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't look to see if there's a Justine
Speaker 1: and Alpha's, but I would not be surprised. And Zari
Speaker 1: keeps saying Alpha's like the TV show with David Strathairn,
Speaker 1: which was canceled way too soon.
Speaker 7: Just one thing I want to bring up, which I
Speaker 7: couldn't stop thinking of, of this movie that I had
Speaker 7: seen that's a documentary.
Speaker 9: So this Vivie.
Speaker 7: It's this fiterary school that is this hazing week. It's
Speaker 7: so evil and wicked. There's something really ominous about it.
Speaker 7: And I happen to go to the New York Academy
Speaker 7: of Medicine because I love science stuff. They sometimes show
Speaker 7: like weird science documentaries and there's this one. It came
Speaker 7: out in twenty twenty two called De Humani Corpus Fabrica.
Speaker 9: It reminds me so much.
Speaker 7: It evokes so much in this movie because it's so
Speaker 7: visceral still, it's like almost a fred It's like a
Speaker 7: Frederick Wiseman film where they're it's a slow burned slow
Speaker 7: just taking in everything in this French hospital, and it's
Speaker 7: it's not a high class hospital.
Speaker 9: It's like a probably a relatively low sees hospital.
Speaker 7: But they're filming a caesarean section and you are just
Speaker 7: watching every minute of this. They're showing someone being prepped
Speaker 7: for brain surgery while they're awake and their brain is
Speaker 7: like split open, their heads, their skull is split open.
Speaker 7: They're showing the psych word and following the patients and
Speaker 7: listening to them. They're even just like sitting at the
Speaker 7: nurse's desk and listening. There's like a prostate operation.
Speaker 9: It's and it's the way they film it.
Speaker 7: Is beautiful, but it's grotesque and it's like that kind
Speaker 7: of thing. But it has a surprise ending, which I'm
Speaker 7: gonna say, and if anybody wants to see it, just
Speaker 7: fast forward a minute or two.
Speaker 9: But the surprise ending is they end up in.
Speaker 7: This attic where the doctors hang out, and on the
Speaker 7: wall is this huge mural of the doctor, like past
Speaker 7: doctors and present doctors in this bacchanalia. They're like pans,
Speaker 7: they're like drinking and they're having sex and it's crazy.
Speaker 7: It's like you realized that this hospital has a tradition
Speaker 7: of the doctors just being like, I don't know. It
Speaker 7: just shows this sort of this really strange side of
Speaker 7: these doctors who are perfectly comfortable with having their portrait
Speaker 7: on this mural that's clearly a tradition that's just about
Speaker 7: decadence and sex and.
Speaker 9: It's so weird.
Speaker 7: I can't explain to you how weird this movie is,
Speaker 7: but it really evoke the same feeling of this weird
Speaker 7: hospital where all these creepy things are going on.
Speaker 9: So I highly recommend it. It's really hard to get through.
Speaker 7: And people were walking out of that film too because
Speaker 7: it was so hard, so hard to watch. Yeah, so
Speaker 7: that's my recommendation for pair these two movies together for
Speaker 7: your friends.
Speaker 9: It's great pairing for pairing.
Speaker 8: I would say, also check out I Believe She's French.
Speaker 8: Also Corley Fargier, who did the substance and Revenge. I
Speaker 8: also feel like those are body horror films that have
Speaker 8: a very feminist sland different tone than what I think
Speaker 8: Julia does, but I think they pair well. And also
Speaker 8: it gives you, i think, a little sense of this
Speaker 8: kind of extreme French horror from a feminine side.
Speaker 1: I just found her earlier film Reality Plus, which I
Speaker 1: look forward to seeing. I haven't seen Revenge, but I
Speaker 1: did finally just watch the Substance. I'm still not sure
Speaker 1: what I think about it, because it's just it's such
Speaker 1: a strange film, you know, about the objectification of women,
Speaker 1: that really objectifies to women throughout the entire thing. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I really never thought of Margaret Qually as being just
Speaker 1: this incredibly hot, but there's I'm feeling the vapors as
Speaker 1: I'm watching this.
Speaker 8: You know, I just looked that it kept upping the ante,
Speaker 8: like you think you've come to the end, like Okay,
Speaker 8: it's not going to go any further than this, and
Speaker 8: then it does, and then okay, it can't find another
Speaker 8: level to go to, and then it does, and then
Speaker 8: all right, we're and it does. And so I appreciated that.
Speaker 1: All right, we're going to take another break and play
Speaker 1: preview for next week's show. Right after these brief messages.
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Speaker 1: That's why we'll be back next week when they look
Speaker 1: at al Yukarda. Until then, I want to thank my
Speaker 1: co host Susan and Beth. So Beth, what is the
Speaker 1: latest with you, ma'am?
Speaker 8: As usual, I'm working with film Geek San Diego and
Speaker 8: we are doing our programming at Digital Gym Cinema, so
Speaker 8: we are rounding out the end of our year of
Speaker 8: international horror and neo noir, so that's pretty exciting for us.
Speaker 8: We also do Bonkers half assed Midnights where we show
Speaker 8: some bonkers films, not quite at midnight, but we get
Speaker 8: you out by midnight and we'll be looking for what
Speaker 8: our theme will be for twenty twenty six for films there.
Speaker 8: And we've just wrapped our annual Secret Morgue last month,
Speaker 8: so that was Secret Morgue six or as we like
Speaker 8: to call it, Secret Morgue sixty six six, Satanic Panic
Speaker 8: or the Devil made us do that?
Speaker 1: And Susan, what's happening with you?
Speaker 7: I'm still writing somewhat. I just fort a piece on
Speaker 7: statistics and comics. So I'm a little bit different, a
Speaker 7: little bit in different world lately. I'm in academia.
Speaker 9: I'm going I went back at a very very very
Speaker 9: late age to.
Speaker 7: Get a PhD in developmental psych I'm in my second
Speaker 7: year and I highly recommend Millie which people do it.
Speaker 8: Just do it.
Speaker 9: It's a good time to do it.
Speaker 7: And so anyway, I wrote a piece for It's called
Speaker 7: Nightingale and it's the publication of the Data Visual Society
Speaker 7: something like that, and it's a cool little piece with
Speaker 7: Andrew Gelman about statistics and comics, which is fun film.
Speaker 9: People like comics too. That's what I'm doing, like helping kids,
Speaker 9: like learning about kids in digital culture. So it's really fascinating.
Speaker 1: I'm just glad you survived the hazing.
Speaker 7: It was very gory and it did not have to
Speaker 7: do with rabbits kidneys, but it had to do with
Speaker 7: things that I'm not going to talk about.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you again ladies for being on the show,
Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody for listening. Want to support physical
Speaker 1: media and get great movies in the mail, head over
Speaker 1: to scarecrow dot com and try Scarecrow Video is incredible
Speaker 1: rent by mail service. You'll find films there entirely unavailable elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Get what you want when you want it without the scrolling,
Speaker 1: and of course they have raw available. If you want
Speaker 1: to hear more of me shooting off my mouth, check
Speaker 1: out some of the other shows that I work on.
Speaker 1: They are all available at wirdingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially
Speaker 1: to our Patreon community. If you want to join the community,
Speaker 1: visit patreon dot com. Slash Projection Booth. Every donation we
Speaker 1: get help some Projection booth take over the world.
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