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So thanks to ghost bed and check 31 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:26.359 them out. 32 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:31.599 Special Operations. 33 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:35.239 Cobert SB and I. 34 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:43.799 The Teamhouse with your hopes, Jack Murphy and David bark. 35 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:50.959 Hey, everyone, welcome to episode three hundred and thirty seven 36 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:53.840 of The Teamhouse. I'm Jack, You're with Dave, and our 37 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:57.879 guest on tonight's show is Thomas Sugart. Thomas served in 38 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:00.680 the Navy as a officer on submarine, going all the 39 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:05.079 way up to be the Captain of the USS Olympia. Correct, 40 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:09.680 that's right, and then went on to positions at the 41 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.840 Office of Net Assessment, essentially working in the think tank 42 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:17.800 space and really focusing on the Chinese military. So we're 43 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.439 going to talk to Thomas tonight about his career and 44 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:25.000 all about his work today too. So we're excited to 45 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:28.199 have you on the show. Thank you for joining us tonight, Tom. 46 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:30.560 That's a pleasure. Thanks very much, Jack and Dave. 47 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:34.280 So, to kick it off, tell us a little bit 48 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:36.680 about like your upbringing and what sort of propelled you 49 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:38.400 towards service in the Navy. 50 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:41.879 So, I mean, I grew up in Texas and went 51 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:44.800 to the University of Texas and was working on mechanical 52 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.719 engineering and the right around the time of the very 53 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:48.520 first golf war. 54 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:50.599 And I'm dating myself here. 55 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:52.800 But right around the time of the first golf bur 56 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:57.319 I was a bit inspired to join up somehow while 57 00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:59.240 I was in college, and so I went to their 58 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.520 pretty station. I said, hey, you know, I'm interested in 59 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:04.479 helping out. Is there a way I can be like 60 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:07.639 a reserve officer or something? And the recruiter said, hey, 61 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:11.280 what's your major? I said, in mechanical engineering, and how 62 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:11.960 are your grades? 63 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:14.120 They're good? Okay, Well I've got a program for you. 64 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:18.199 So the Nuclear Navy's Nuclear Power Officer Candidate program, and 65 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:20.960 that's a that's a program that still exists very much 66 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:24.360 going strong, and it's basically a way that the Navy 67 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:27.280 can get enough engineers to be the nuclear trained officers 68 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:30.639 on its submarines and aircraft barriers. Because they basically can't 69 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:33.680 produce enough engineers out of the Naval Academy and out 70 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.560 of ROTC. They need to pull some right out of 71 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:40.280 college engineering programs and at other technical majors to bring 72 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:43.680 them into the Navy specifically to be nuclear trained officers. 73 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:46.879 So all of our submarine officers are nuclear trains, so 74 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:49.199 they get one supply officer on board, but all the 75 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:51.960 other officers on the ship are what we call nuclear trains, 76 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:53.599 So they all go through they have some sort of 77 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:57.240 technical background. They go through Nuclear Power School, Nuclear Prototype, 78 00:03:57.400 --> 00:03:58.599 you know, about a year and a half worth of 79 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:02.319 training and all trained on how nuclear actors operate and 80 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:04.599 and and are and are qualified to operate them as 81 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:05.960 as supervisors. 82 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:09.280 So I got signed up for that program. 83 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:13.159 It is a fantastic program back when. 84 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:13.479 I did it. 85 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:16.399 So basically what you do is you sign up and 86 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:18.000 the day you sign up, and you can sign up 87 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:20.439 up to two years before you graduate, maybe two and 88 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:23.319 a half. At this point, you get a signing bonus 89 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.439 and you become active to the enlisted in an eighty. 90 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:28.600 Your only job is to go to college. 91 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:31.560 Interesting you literally I don't know it works now, but 92 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:33.759 I can say I got a letter that said that 93 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:36.800 I was both exempt, I was exempted from grooming standards 94 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:39.879 and that I was neither required nor authorized the where 95 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:45.480 I give, but still could use space available air thinking 96 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:49.439 for retirement to your leave while you're in school and 97 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:51.600 you're it's full active to be paid benefits. 98 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:52.920 Back then it was E three. 99 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.079 I think it's like a six now six or E 100 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:58.759 seven that you get paid and it's not scholarship, it's 101 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:04.160 just hey, So you do that program up to two 102 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:05.839 years and then when you graduate and go to Officer 103 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:08.560 CAMPI school and then Nuclear Power school, and then you 104 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:11.600 enter the training pipeline for submarines or surface ships, depending 105 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:14.319 on where you're going. So that seemed like a good 106 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:18.560 application of my technical background to really utilize that but 107 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.920 still be able to serve. And I thought submarines sound exciting. 108 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:26.839 It was you know, independent operations and you know, try 109 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:29.360 to do its own thing. I thought about surface warfare 110 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:31.560 being a surface warfare officer, but I kind of looked 111 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:33.959 at it as well, you know, the surface ships are 112 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:36.000 kind of there for the carrier, and the carrier's kind 113 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.480 of there for the pilots, and so I'd rather be 114 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:40.319 a submarine or where we're kind of doing our own thing. 115 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.480 Now. I haven't changed a lot since then. 116 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.120 That doesn't really speak that much the way things are now, 117 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.079 But so that's kind of that's kind of what got 118 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:51.560 me into the Navy in the first place. 119 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:53.639 I had thought about going to the Naval Academy and. 120 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.680 Actually spent a week there in the summer before my 121 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.160 senior year and ended up being kind of deciding how 122 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.160 I kind of want the regular all the experience, and 123 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:03.040 I'm sure the academy is great for a lot of 124 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:06.639 folks able to you know, Austin's a fun place to 125 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:08.240 live and any. 126 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:12.079 Gradesime in college and then what uh, you know, you 127 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:14.480 go through this whole program, you go through college, you 128 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.920 get into the Navy, and you mentioned all the officers 129 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:21.240 are nuclear trained, but I mean, I guess that doesn't 130 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.120 necessarily mean you are like the reactor guy per se. 131 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:26.839 I'm just curious what was like kind of your first 132 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:31.360 duty position when you showed up, So junior officers on 133 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:34.000 board submarines, the first thing you do when you get 134 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.279 there is you're you're going back to the endergrad. 135 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.720 You're learning how to operate uh, all the equipment back there. 136 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:42.040 Ultimately that there's a watch station you're trying to qualify, 137 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.439 which is engineering officer to watch. So you're basically the 138 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:49.199 watch officer that is in charge of the reactor plan. Okay, 139 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:52.439 you're at the guy that's actually flipped in the switches 140 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.480 on the panels and all that. There are those really 141 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:56.720 smart and listed operators that have a lot more experience 142 00:06:56.759 --> 00:06:57.000 than you. 143 00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:58.279 Do that are doing that. 144 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.439 So so like in the control room for the engineering 145 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:04.399 space and you don't have you know, have a watch officer, 146 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:06.560 and then you have two or three panel operators depending 147 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:09.199 on the type of shift, the ones that are really 148 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.040 operating the you know, reactor and or whatnot. And then you 149 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:13.560 have a bunch of other watch standers that are out 150 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.040 in the engineering spaces, you know, turning valves and pick 151 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:19.439 some pumps and all that other stuff. I watched team 152 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:22.680 of about ten or so ten or eleven people total 153 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:26.240 back in the Indine Graam. So that's the first op 154 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.639 racial job you're learning. Is the engineering officer a watch 155 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.319 So you're you know, and I'll never forget that the 156 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.000 first time I did start, and I was the guy 157 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.839 I'm actually on watch. I wasn't a trainee anymore. And 158 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.600 me and my guys started up the reactor. You know, 159 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.800 it was trust me, the engineer officer the department was 160 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:45.040 keeping an eye on things by all means. But but 161 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:46.199 it was cool. And you know, I walk on the 162 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.160 ingrom like I just started up a Niclar reactor, you know. 163 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:51.759 And I was like twenty six years old probably. 164 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:54.959 And then then. 165 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:57.560 You have your administrative jobs with your or your division officer, 166 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.120 and you're notionally in charge of you know, ten or 167 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:05.120 so enlisted personnel on the division. So it's and you 168 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.000 start with engineering, so electrical division or reactor control division. 169 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:09.759 Or that kind of thing. 170 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:11.759 So so you start out in that job as a 171 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:13.920 bit of a leadership and over now we all know 172 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:16.399 if you spend time in a service that you've got 173 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:17.319 some senior n c O. 174 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:19.959 And yes, you're nominally in charge. 175 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:22.879 But I mean you're the dumb and not take advice 176 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:27.600 very carefully from you know, from your chief. And actually 177 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:30.000 my first electrical divission chief recently passed away, so I'll 178 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.559 send to see that. But in any case, that's so, yeah, 179 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:35.480 you kind of start back in the injineram is. That's 180 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:36.799 the first thing you do when you get there, and 181 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:40.039 you gradually work your way forward to where you're eventually 182 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.360 a Ford division officer like the navigate the communications officer 183 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:47.679 or SNI officer or damage control assistant and then watch 184 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:49.919 station wise your what your goal is is to be 185 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:52.120 to stand officer of the deck, so you're you're the 186 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:55.120 guy in the control room in charge in the ship 187 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:57.679 on a minute five minute basis, on behalf of the captain, 188 00:08:58.759 --> 00:08:59.000 you know. 189 00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:02.000 While the ship is belong And what was the first 190 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:02.960 boat you were assigned to? 191 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:08.679 That was my first ship was USS Houston, which was 192 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:12.080 in San Diego. All of you, all of you, I've 193 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:15.639 seen USS Houston. So that was in the Hunt for October. 194 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:19.200 There's the scene where USS Dallas comes flying out of 195 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:21.120 the water and crashes back down. 196 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.080 That was actually USS Houston. That did that. 197 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.240 Wow, that did that. They were the they were the 198 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.720 star of the show for that. So that was my 199 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:33.039 first ship, Yeah, in San Diego, which was awesome. 200 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:39.799 Is the the NUKE program for officers and listed is it? 201 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:40.559 Is it the same? 202 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.039 Do they share classes when it comes to like the 203 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:44.840 power plant stuff and things like that. 204 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.519 You don't really share, uh the initial well, so you 205 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.120 don't share Nuclear power school. 206 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.120 So nuclearar schools with six. 207 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:57.919 Months classroom training and there's there is a it's all 208 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:01.360 the same place, but it's separate classes for officers and 209 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:06.440 for listed. But then you go to the training pipeline, 210 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:08.639 so you go to nuclear power training units. So that's 211 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:12.440 supposed we call prototype, and that is a it's an 212 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.279 actual operating reactor, but it's a training plan, so it's 213 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:17.919 a Some of them are an old submarine which has 214 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:20.759 been you know, refitted to be a training submarine. 215 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:21.720 It doesn't go anywhere. 216 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:24.000 It just is tied up and and it just kind 217 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.639 of churned river waters to be going anywhere. But it's 218 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:29.879 a real reactor and really it's really operating. So that prototype. 219 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:32.480 There are listed trainees and officer trainees and you're just 220 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:36.080 you're each you're each trying to qualify your respective watch stations. 221 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:39.679 So they're qualifying and listed junior listed watch stations. You're 222 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:44.080 qualifying your junior officer watch station. Now that said to 223 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:46.720 be engineering officer to watch, you have to stand watch 224 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.120 on all of the enlisted watch stations as a trainee 225 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.200 before you can go be the watch officers, you have 226 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:55.919 to at least for a couple of watches, I've done 227 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:56.440 their job. 228 00:10:57.399 --> 00:10:59.559 Not I mean, you're a trainee, it's not for real. 229 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:03.559 So it's but you've experienced all the listed watch stations 230 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:05.200 before you get to the point that you're supposed to 231 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:08.039 be in charge of them. 232 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:10.600 And what's uh, you know, you get to your first boat, 233 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:11.279 what's it like? 234 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:12.039 What's you know? 235 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:14.039 What is being on a submarine? 236 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:14.399 Like? 237 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:18.720 Well, I certainly remember when I showed up to my 238 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:19.320 first ship. 239 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:22.399 So again I showed up to USS Houston and here 240 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.519 and my service ress blues up top side and show up. 241 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.919 I've got my then fuldberger and my white hat on 242 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:33.159 a ready goat and they called down and this this 243 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:35.919 young guy comes up top side. I won't say his 244 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:39.159 name though that he says, who are you? I'm like 245 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.600 Tom Streetberg, how you know? And I'm I'm John Doe. 246 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:48.000 Welcome to Hell. It's like great. So my first ship 247 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:54.519 was our commanding officer was largely kind of a terror, 248 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:56.679 not not very well regarded along by a lot. 249 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:00.600 Of the crew. And this ship was it was, it was. 250 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:02.679 We spent a lot of time in the in the dryout, 251 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.000 which is sounds great, but it's actually kind of awful 252 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:11.559 and it was quite challenging. So everything gotten much better 253 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.919 when I got my next commanding officer. And it's amazing 254 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:18.320 how the character of the CEO can completely change the 255 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.159 quality of life on board of ship. And you know, 256 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:26.440 my secting commanding officer showed up and uh he came, 257 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:28.639 got all the officers together and said, you know, I 258 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:30.120 got to count on all you guys. All of you 259 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:31.919 know more about whatever vis you're doing than I do. 260 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:34.799 But the whole you know, the bigger picture of your 261 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:36.759 individual part, you know better. I kind of it was 262 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:41.360 a very different feel and it's accessors, so it was 263 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:45.600 it was so you know, as a we were relatively 264 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.039 short on officer manning at that point, and so I 265 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:50.080 was for quite a while. I was what they call 266 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.559 three section duty, so one and every three days I 267 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.879 was on duty. But that's on top of your work 268 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:57.960 week and do the twenty four hours, and it's not 269 00:12:58.080 --> 00:12:58.720 beaver duty. 270 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:00.720 It is you're on the ship for twenty four hours. 271 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:04.200 So if you're a three second for example, we'll say 272 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:06.159 a week, your your work week starts. 273 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:08.240 On Monday, and you are on duty. 274 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.840 So you show up Monday at like six to take 275 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:12.799 take the watch from the off going watch section. Can 276 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:14.000 you get a tour of the ship. You got to 277 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:16.720 renewal the logs, you got to reveal all the maintenance 278 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:19.159 paper work that's happening, and you've got to turn over 279 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:20.440 from the off going watch officer. 280 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:22.080 So you're there like six. 281 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.919 Okay, Now you're on duty for twenty four hours, you know, 282 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:27.480 all the way until the next morning, until you get relieved, 283 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:30.679 and then then your Tuesday workday starts, you know, and 284 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.159 you might get maybe four or five hours of sleep, 285 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.039 and then you're on duty all the next day Tuesday, 286 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:38.960 and you got a workday and you go home tired, 287 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:41.879 and then you know, Wednesday's kind of a normal work day, 288 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:44.639 and guess what, you're on duty again on Thursday. That's 289 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.080 once every three days now okay through Now you're on 290 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:49.000 duty all the way. 291 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:49.600 Through Friday morning. 292 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.000 So you go home Friday from work dead tired because 293 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:54.759 you've got you know, didn't get much sleep. And then 294 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:56.440 Saturday you get to think about how you're gonna have 295 00:13:56.519 --> 00:13:59.120 duty on Sunday. So you know, you can't go really 296 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.279 at prity on Friday if you're tired Saturday night, you 297 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.320 can't really turn tied on because you've got to be 298 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:06.320 on duty the next morning. So really, and you just 299 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.440 repeat that and you basically never get you never get 300 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.080 a real weekend that you're totally free because you got 301 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:15.039 duty either Friday, Saturday or Sunday. 302 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:15.960 Uh. 303 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.559 And and that's why you're important, right, that's that doesn't 304 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:20.039 when you're a c. 305 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.240 And yeah, and I'd be curious to know about that 306 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:27.519 because that's one, that's a heavy workload. But two, when 307 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:30.480 you guys do get underway, if you're doing a you know, 308 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:36.519 a float, you're talking about a few hundred people, I imagine 309 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:41.240 in a very confined space. And sometimes from what I've heard, 310 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:44.960 like nukes will stay underwater for three to six months 311 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:47.480 at a time. Like how how do you manage that? 312 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:52.240 How how is all that managed? With personalities, with the workload, 313 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:53.200 with everything else. 314 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.519 I think the most challenging part is, uh is just 315 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:00.080 the workload and it's kind of sleep I mean, you 316 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:00.799 know it is. 317 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:02.360 Depending what the ship's doing. 318 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.679 It can be quite busy with all the training and 319 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:07.600 the drills and and watch standing. 320 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:10.360 You see. 321 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:12.399 So people say like, oh, you know, Arch, don't you 322 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:16.240 get bored or you know, you think about being underwater 323 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:18.120 not you're just you're just thinking about how am I 324 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.600 going to get in the racks, or I can get 325 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:23.840 decent sleep and not be dead tired, or when there's 326 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.000 when's the next set of drills? Or you know, when 327 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.200 do I have to get this paperwork done? When do 328 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.200 I have to have this training plan ready? We don't 329 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:31.919 have to prepare training for the for the guys. 330 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:32.720 What are we doing? You know? 331 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.440 And it just goes on from there. So I will 332 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.320 say that only once or twice I bet on the 333 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:41.480 submarine where it wasn't part of the crew you know 334 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.919 what they call a writer, where you're just somebody that's 335 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:47.080 on the work. And we'll say that if you do 336 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:48.759 not have a if you don't have a job and 337 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:51.879 you're on a submarine, it can be a very super 338 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:54.919 boring place to be. And because there's nowhere to go, 339 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:58.159 there's no in many cas on many occasions, the cruise 340 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.759 mass which is the one big space being used. 341 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:02.159 For training or they're eating or whatever. 342 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:04.120 And if you can't get in the ward drone which 343 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:06.240 will or the asters saying out because but again stuff's 344 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:06.679 going on there. 345 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:07.759 There's really nowhere to go. 346 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.440 There's nothing, there's nothing to do so, so I will 347 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:13.639 say that it was actually while I was longed to 348 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:15.519 be a writer, when I was a part of Ship's 349 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:19.720 company being one when it was like, okay, wow, there's 350 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:21.399 really not much to do here if you're not if 351 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:22.919 you're not working your stuff. 352 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:28.879 So yo, what's up guys. 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Eight six six 403 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:57.759 eight eight nine eighty ten eight six six eight eight 404 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:03.599 nine eighty ten American Financing dot net slash teamhouse. 405 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.319 So that that really it was a challenge just just 406 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:10.880 to get it all done, to get all the work done, 407 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:13.720 get sleep. We've got the summary force has gotten a 408 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.880 lot smarter over the years. So when I first my 409 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.720 first couple of ships, you were jet The closet of 410 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:21.799 the crew is in a presecon look called three section 411 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:22.640 rotation again. 412 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.039 So but it was six hour watches, so you're six on. 413 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.599 Twelve off, and so you ended up being all watch 414 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:32.519 you know, different all different times of the day on 415 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:33.440 a rotating basis. 416 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:35.000 So you'd be like pick the. 417 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:38.319 Twelve and off until midnight, and then you come on 418 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:40.519 at midnight, you'd be until six, and you're off until 419 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:42.559 eighteen hundred, and you'd be on at eighteen hundred and 420 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:44.920 you'd be off until six. You know, you get the idea, 421 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.079 six on twelve off. It was really not a smart 422 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.880 way to do things because we all understand now, sir, 423 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.000 kadian rhythm, you know, it is really important to not 424 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:56.359 being dumb all the time, and we weren't doing that. 425 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.000 So you basically were continually jet lighted because you're sleeping 426 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.799 at different times of the day every single day. So 427 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:05.119 the sports done a lot smarter about it. They did 428 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:09.039 some studies and figured out that that was not a 429 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.359 great way to do things and shifted to a like 430 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:14.920 an eight on sixteen off rotation to again a circadian 431 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:18.799 rhythm lost rotations where we're on up, you're sleeping the. 432 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.640 Same time every day, and that made us a lot smarter. 433 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:23.599 I mean, it made it made the cruise a lot 434 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.759 bit arrested, even if they were busy, even if you're 435 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:28.480 being even if you only got five hours sleep, at 436 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:29.799 least you're getting at the same time. 437 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.440 Area, right right, And is it true that because I've 438 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.200 heard all kinds of like horror stories about you know, 439 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.079 about nuke subs in particular in the sense of did 440 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.200 did they enlisted have the hot rock generally or was 441 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.799 there generally enough space for all of them? 442 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:46.720 Well, so it depends on the kind of ship you're on. 443 00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:52.920 Okay, So our attack submarines, the smaller multipurpose you know, 444 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.519 they can do sink surface ship stick sink submarines. They 445 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:59.440 can launch tamahawk cruse mussiles, they can do intelligence collection 446 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.279 and O. There's a multipurpose kind of boats. They generally 447 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:05.920 will have some portion of the group high racking easily. 448 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.440 It's usually it's your pretty junior guys. It's E two's, 449 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:12.599 E three's maybe and some E fours. 450 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.559 They maybe a. 451 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.920 Few E fives, but not not not usually and oftentimes 452 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.000 your torpedo room is is will have some space the 453 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.160 sleeping the hull racks where they would have weapons and 454 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:29.000 frees up smetter space but when you want to ployment, 455 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:32.160 there's a lot of guys on racking because if you 456 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.920 look at torpedo rooms full when you're on undeployment, you're 457 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:38.839 over there for a reason, and and you sometimes will 458 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:41.000 have extra riders on board. I'm sure folks that are 459 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.799 that are being healthy with stuff you're doing undeployment, and 460 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:49.920 in that case sometimes six the racking. Yeah, officers don't 461 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.960 won't ever. That's just it, just the way it is, right. 462 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:58.559 It doesn't mean that they're observe necessarily a state room. 463 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.400 For example, on like a Los Angeles class, there's what's 464 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.799 called nine man or everything, which is a nine nine person 465 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:11.319 bunk rooms just weasly listening on the rings there, and 466 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:12.920 you worked their way up to a state room over 467 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:18.119 over time. Now, our newer boats like the Ohio class 468 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.319 summaries they're actually they're not newer, but there are ballistic 469 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:21.160 missile summaries. 470 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:23.079 They are a humongous submarines. 471 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:24.720 They are you know, there are two or three times 472 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.640 the size in the l A class and so they 473 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:27.400 haven't there's no. 474 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:28.960 Hot righting on SSP and shinty. 475 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:31.240 They have enough bunks for everybody because there's all these 476 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:34.279 bunk rooms in the missile apartment in between those huge 477 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:38.480 missile tubes. Yeah, there's showing no high righting there. Now 478 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:41.519 there's a whole nother rangele Now we have no egg cruise, 479 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.559 so to speak. We have integrated cruise where you have, 480 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:47.400 like on a Virginia class submarines, you have bunk rooms 481 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.359 that are all female at own mail. I suppose all 482 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.240 of all the summaries are what was on. None of 483 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:55.599 them were built to have women on board, so they 484 00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:56.119 were never. 485 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:57.200 While I was on board. 486 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:02.759 Right, interesting, and I'd like to, you know, ask a 487 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:05.319 little bit more about you know, you were saying that 488 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:08.519 there's a big difference on the culture of your first 489 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.720 submarine where the captain was a bit of a terror 490 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:13.039 where and then the second was kind of a very 491 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.119 different leadership style. I wonder if you could expand on that, like, 492 00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:18.759 because you mentioned how big an impact that has on 493 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:20.160 the entire life on the ship. 494 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:25.079 Yeah, I mean, you know, the CEO has a lot 495 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:27.799 of authority on how things go on a ship, so 496 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:29.799 there's a lot of different ways that they can make 497 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:31.960 life that are worse. 498 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:33.559 A lot of it has to do. 499 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.079 With, you know, so they listen to the inputs that 500 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:40.599 they're given by the crew, by their officers, and they 501 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.039 treat them, I mean it already nice or you know, 502 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.799 I mean always times that you have to be you 503 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:48.880 may not need he pisan all the time, but like 504 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:52.680 for example, this this guy, I mean he hes firm, 505 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:53.720 is actually going to be the same. 506 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:56.200 There's screening sometimes in their shoulders. 507 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.400 Things weren't smart going away that he wanted them to 508 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:01.440 start yelling at people. And I took away from that 509 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.319 as a you know, as a young junior officer. Here 510 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.599 is the captain yelling at me or the person next 511 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:09.240 to me that just I couldn't really function when when 512 00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:11.920 he was doing that. So he's trying attempting to get 513 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:14.119 better performance out of us. But all I could do 514 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:15.599 is what do I need to do to make this 515 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.279 guy stuff y'all give me? And and not so much 516 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:21.759 focusing on on how we do things. So like I 517 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:24.200 made it a point that was kind of a lesson 518 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:26.079 that I learned at that point was do whatever you 519 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:27.240 can then not have emotion. 520 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:29.480 You know, in the control room while you're trying to 521 00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:30.160 operate a ship. 522 00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:33.279 You know, if you're going to deploy emotion, do so 523 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:37.319 in a very planned manner with the goal of achieving 524 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.279 specific reholes. If you need to make an example or something, 525 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.359 you know, and make clear you're how important something is, 526 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:49.720 you know, do it on a thoughtful way. But that 527 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:51.759 the kind of thing that you can do differently that 528 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:54.559 I think helps people perform better. If that helps for attention, 529 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.200 that that guy, I mean, to be clear, the ship 530 00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:00.680 did really well is going to I mean, they did 531 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:04.000 really hard missions and accomplish them, but I think it 532 00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:07.240 came at an enormous cost of people that were to 533 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:11.759 stick around after that. And in some cases, like one 534 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:13.240 of the things that can happen in the eighties, you 535 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.480 can do it's called relistening for orders, so you re 536 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:20.319 enlist and before relistening you get a new assignment. And 537 00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:23.599 so his retention numbers actually could look pretty good sometimes 538 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.319 because people were reenlistening to get off the ship, and 539 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.720 so they didn't mean they were understand it. They ne're 540 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:31.839 understand in eighty forever. But you know, that can be 541 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:35.880 kind of a false indicator, So don't His command tour 542 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:38.880 looked really great on paper, and he did really well, 543 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:41.359 and he was created it. He went to a major commander, 544 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.880 but just a terrible, terrible experience for many people on board. 545 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.759 Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, the tremendous authority that 546 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.559 a sub captain has, and I'd like to ask you 547 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:54.559 a little bit more about that too, because look, I 548 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.000 know nothing about this topic other than like the Hunt 549 00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.000 for Red October and Crimson Tied a few other moves. 550 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:05.160 These they always they always show these subs are in isolation, 551 00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.039 they have no comma with big Navy. They're out there 552 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:10.079 doing their own thing, and the captain kind of is 553 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:11.240 like the god of the boat. 554 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:13.519 Is that true? Is that accurate? 555 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:16.480 It is screwed to some degree? 556 00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:20.119 So I mean I would say that, I mean, probably 557 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.319 compared to any other farms the military, you work as 558 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:26.440 a see you know, your no files command, you're probably 559 00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:28.680 the most independent. I mean because there are times where 560 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.359 you're out doing stuff and yeah, you're not communicating and 561 00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:34.079 you know, and you're conducting can be conducting pretty igh 562 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:38.319 stakes operations and yeah, there's nobody to talk to it. 563 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:44.039 And certainly when things go south, you're not gonna have 564 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:44.799 anyone to talk. 565 00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:46.319 To for a while, and you really are gonna be 566 00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:46.759 like grown. 567 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:50.680 So I will never forget when I was on my 568 00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:53.640 on my command tour, I will up to the middle 569 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.240 of the night to the final army going off, and 570 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:00.240 we're hearing a fire announcement, you know, a firefire, fire 571 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:02.319 in the engine room, fire, and then this and that thing, 572 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:05.079 and I just remember, you know, there I am standing 573 00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:09.279 in the control room and my pajamas and starting to 574 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:11.559 think about well, while the guys are working on the end, 575 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:13.759 the fires out very quickly and then they have very 576 00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.039 big deal. But you know, for that thirty seconds, like, 577 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:19.519 are we gonna wind up on the surface off of 578 00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:22.480 Hawaii at night with the crew on the top side? 579 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:24.799 You know what one am I going to abandon ship 580 00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:27.200 if I have to? You know, you start start thinking 581 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:30.160 through those things because in that time frame, yeah, you're 582 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:31.799 not gonna have your belt, you're gonna be you're not 583 00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.039 going to be able to radio home. Yeah, all that 584 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:36.559 kind of time frame to make those really quick decisions. 585 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:38.720 That being said, you have a lot of GUIDs. 586 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:42.720 I mean, you know, the submariners are all about procedures 587 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:48.119 and requirements and technical requirements, and so you you have 588 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.559 beaten into you over years of experience exactly what the 589 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:54.680 requirements are for most situations that you'd be in the 590 00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.839 most conceivable situations that you'd be in. There was a 591 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:00.680 procedure for whatever the cagalty is. Your people should be 592 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.799 executing that, you should be overseeing their execution of all that, 593 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.519 and most of it should be happening, happening, unfolding in 594 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.799 accordance with some sort of effect. But there is a 595 00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:12.839 great deal of description requirement and more time, obviously that 596 00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:15.640 will go up even more, which is why as you 597 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:19.839 see much of the military analysts talking about mission command, 598 00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:23.559 so you know, because communications may be quite constrained in 599 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:28.559 a future conflict with China in particular, we're a lot 600 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.359 of the military is starting to focus on how do 601 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:32.920 we deveolove mission command to our commanditors so that they 602 00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:36.279 can in the absence of communication still find effectively by 603 00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:38.400 making decisions that I've always said, like you all want 604 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.480 to do mission command, talk to some reinforce, because we're 605 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:43.079 the guys that do that all the time. 606 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:44.799 It is in our absolute. 607 00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:48.799 Marrow of our bones how to do relatively independent operations 608 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.559 with very little guidance except for we've done before. 609 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.359 End No, it's incredible. 610 00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.720 And so as you're going through your career here, you know, 611 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.680 you mentioned that you're going to these different duty positions 612 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.519 across the submarine and I take it they're sort of 613 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:10.160 like grooming you as a naval officer to potentially be captain. 614 00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:12.599 They must be like looking at you like, you know, 615 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.279 are you going to be the guy? Can you tell 616 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:16.799 us a little bit about like kind of what your 617 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:19.359 career progression was like going to these different stations? 618 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.119 Sure? I mean, so, one. 619 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.400 Thing that's kind of funny about Submarine Force and is 620 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:29.200 that when you sign up for it, there's literally a 621 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:31.599 art that shows your entire career. 622 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:33.680 It shows it's a timeline. 623 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.079 It's three years, three years the junior officer, two years 624 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:39.640 on short duty, then you go to apartment at school 625 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:41.400 for six months and then five months whatever. 626 00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:41.640 It is. 627 00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:45.279 Three years of the department head, two years of short duty, 628 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.200 two years of the night sho, two years of short uty, 629 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:49.319 three years in the. 630 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.279 C And that is what is going to happen. 631 00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:53.400 As long as you don't fall off the wagon, you're 632 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:55.599 going to be somewhere within plus or minus six months. 633 00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:58.079 Every one of those gates is going to happen on 634 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:02.839 your on your on your career, are where which boats where? 635 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:06.200 What kind of races are they doing? And then what 636 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:08.519 are you doing on surety? So you know, are you 637 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.920 going to be uh, you know, at a submarine head 638 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:13.680 quarters or are you going to be we have warp 639 00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.000 collarge or you're going to be you know and gone. 640 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:19.680 And so so that's kind of the flavor. And it 641 00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:22.279 starts in the division officer tour that I mentioned, and 642 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:24.279 then again you go to Shortenny. 643 00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:25.279 For a couple of times. A couple of years, I 644 00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:26.279 went to Italy. 645 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:29.599 I was on the six fleet staff in Naples as 646 00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:33.079 the Submarines Operations officer. Fantastic job at the travel all 647 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:36.160 over Europe. Can't talk about the boats are doing that 648 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:38.039 I was involved with, but you know it was good stuff. 649 00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.759 And then then backed as an apartment head in this 650 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.200 case that was on an SSPN, a blisting missile submarine, 651 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.640 and I was the engineer, and then split tour and 652 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:47.880 I was then I was the navigator. 653 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:48.279 I was sorry. 654 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.400 I started as the navigator and ended up as the 655 00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:52.640 ship's engineer for most of my tour. And I was 656 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.440 in Banger, Washington on the West coast, and then after 657 00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:03.880 that then posted apartment head. I'm sorry, I totally missed 658 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:05.559 the tour, so junior officer, and then I went to 659 00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:06.279 San Francisco. 660 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:07.039 I was a recruiter. 661 00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:10.440 I was recruiting college students to be a new coauthor 662 00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:16.440 like Iowan's and then department head Washington and then then 663 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:18.559 Italy at Post apartment head, and then I went to 664 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:21.680 go be Xo on USS to peek it in San Diego, 665 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:23.680 back to San Diego for another tour which was awesome. 666 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:27.359 San Diego is incredible. And then after that I went 667 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:30.599 to the Naval War College in a part Hode Island. 668 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.119 Fantastic experience. Got into war gaming there. 669 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:33.720 That was a big thing. 670 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:36.440 Later so I was part of something that's called the Halls, 671 00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.240 the Alpha group, which in the war gaming group at 672 00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.440 the War College, they are a China or gaming group. 673 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:45.559 We can now say that. And that was a fantastic experience. 674 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:47.200 And then from there I went to the Joint Staff 675 00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:50.119 where I was on the I was the Nuclear Brand 676 00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:53.240 Nuclear Strike Branch chief, which is a fun job. We 677 00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:57.400 answered the phone nuclear strike and so we were the 678 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:01.240 guys that basically did new clear command control. So we 679 00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.359 made we expected all the cuclear command centers around the 680 00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:06.640 world to make sure that they were able to execute 681 00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:09.480 nuclear command control in the cords with the Chairman's directives. 682 00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:13.920 And then also inspect actually expected them. And we also 683 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:18.119 wrote the Black Book, so we helped to write the 684 00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:20.400 Black Books. So the book that goes into football, so 685 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.960 the President's suitcase known as the Black Book, the Nuclear 686 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:24.799 Decision and Book. 687 00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:27.039 So we took for in that. 688 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:31.960 We maintained that book and in the day and that 689 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:37.599 was a really cool one. So yeah, no pressure, man, Yeah, 690 00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:41.000 it's funny. Uh yeah, it's it's a it's an important book, 691 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:48.319 is Yeah, it's a humbly experience. So and and also 692 00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:51.960 training the military's the guys that carry the football with 693 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.119 the President, so I will train them on nuclear nuclear 694 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:55.279 command and control stuff. 695 00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:57.799 So really fantastic job. 696 00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:02.759 And then after that it's on that command tour and 697 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:05.000 that was in Hawaii, and you know, people say it like, 698 00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.440 what's a great job, in my opinion, one of the 699 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:11.839 best jobs on the planet. Rational past submarine community officer 700 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:15.039 and wine. It doesn't get much better than that. You know, 701 00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:17.799 you get under way, there's way, and the weather's always great. 702 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:19.920 You know, there's a lot of places where it's not 703 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.880 very pleasant to stand on top of the submarine as 704 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:23.799 as the captain does coming in and out of port. 705 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:24.920 But Hawaii is not one of them. 706 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:25.160 That was. 707 00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:28.480 It was awesome. So that was kind of up through 708 00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:29.039 the command tour. 709 00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:32.799 And so I've heard I've been told that being a 710 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:37.160 submarine captain is maybe the most complex job in the military. 711 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:39.440 I mean, would you agree with that, and could you 712 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:40.319 tell us why or why not? 713 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:46.400 I mean problem maybe, I mean, it's certainly some of 714 00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:48.960 the most I mean objectively, objectively, I would say that 715 00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:50.759 it's some of the most training. I mean, you have 716 00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:54.599 before you can get to the jobs. So first of all, 717 00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:56.559 you have just been selected over the years. You know, 718 00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:58.799 you get to keep getting selected. Well, getting selected for 719 00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:01.680 an apartment that's pretty easy. XO is a pretty seat 720 00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:04.359 cut to go from three department heads to one XO. 721 00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.119 And then XO C is another cut. 722 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:12.239 And what's funny about it is that, unlike a lot 723 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:16.280 of other services, like as long as you're a fallen 724 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:19.719 off the wagon, the selection boards are what eventually will 725 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:25.000 decide to rank, and like the break the motion boards 726 00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:28.360 are kind of automatic. Like if so, if you get 727 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.400 selected to go to Coe, you're going. And then if 728 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:34.039 you don't get fired during your co tour, you're gonna 729 00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:36.960 make those six as they say, as they say, if 730 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:38.719 the if there's a band of the change of command. 731 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.679 You're going to make those six dino rewinding your EXISO tour. 732 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.239 If you successfully contin your EXO, you won't make go 733 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.440 five And it's kind of automatic. So it's these selection boards. 734 00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.719 You have a long way, but but on that way 735 00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:52.719 to that COO tour. You know, the training pipeline is 736 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:56.119 about nine or ten months between your life or good 737 00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:59.599 job and and we take command. Yeah, you have three 738 00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:02.800 months training enable reactors and DC at the headquarters neighbor 739 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.440 reactor's headquarters are that very like you're literally taking classes 740 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.440 and talking to the guys that design the reactor and 741 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:12.480 that and that you know that are responsible for biging 742 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:14.039 out the procedures and everything. So if you have a 743 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:15.760 question about ask the merch, you can go talk to 744 00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:21.239 the design and resolve that. So really intensive training for 745 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:26.559 eight hour written exams or multiple oral exam boards where 746 00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:29.400 you know, we get through all kinds of situations where 747 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.719 you go to command and then then you go through 748 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:35.480 what we call the submarine command course. Now this to 749 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.599 be clear, this may have changed. This is I'm talking 750 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:39.920 twenty thirteen, twelve years ago, but I think it's pretty 751 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:43.519 much the same. So Submarine Command Course you're spending a 752 00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.079 month in the books learning about the sonar and fire 753 00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:48.079 control systems for the ship that you're going to go to. 754 00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:52.599 And then you're in you're in trainers simulators with other students, 755 00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:54.960 a bunch of guys that are p xos and pcos 756 00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:58.239 perspective xos and CEOs that are going to boats, and 757 00:35:58.280 --> 00:35:59.760 then you go to see groups. 758 00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:02.360 You ride multiple boats, so you'll ride a boat. 759 00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:04.440 For several days and then you'll transfer to another boat 760 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:07.360 and you and you do all every comp every combat 761 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.400 or peacetime operation you can think of if you're doing 762 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:11.000 all these ships, so you basically kind of get to 763 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:13.480 be captain for a day and as they say, drive 764 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:15.800 it like you stole it, because you know there's there's 765 00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:17.760 a real COEO that actually owns the boat, and you 766 00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:19.480 kind of get to take the reins for twenty four 767 00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:24.599 hours and practice practice doing it. So then there's the 768 00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:27.039 Navy Seal Leadership course. You go to that too, although 769 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:29.960 compared to the other the submarine Fanning Pipeline that that's 770 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.119 a relatively tanned course, so it is it is fine 771 00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:34.880 and training, and then when you get to the shift, 772 00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:37.599 you have a thirty eight day turner re period with 773 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:39.679 the outgoing CEO. So you're on board for a month 774 00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:43.039 for you to actually take command, which is much longer 775 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:44.400 than I think most communities do. 776 00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.239 As they say regular no no, no, no, please finish 777 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:50.599 that up. 778 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:52.480 Yeah, finish your thoughts. 779 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:52.840 Yeah. 780 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:54.960 So that that thirty day Turner reperiod. You know, some 781 00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:57.280 might say that have been through it, like it's kind 782 00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:00.280 of the longest thirty days of your life for both 783 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:03.400 you and the outgoing guy, because you know, after a 784 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:06.760 couple of weeks, you know, you don't have any authority. 785 00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.920 You know, you have zero authority until the guy says, 786 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:13.239 so you said, I really do he says, I stand relieved. 787 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:15.280 So you're not actually in charge of anything. You're just 788 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:17.920 gonna watch it. You're watching everybody does busily. After a 789 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:20.599 couple of weeks, you know that the crew will be 790 00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:23.400 looking to the seat the currincy know, hey, we want 791 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:25.079 to do about this for that and he's kind of 792 00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:27.320 looking at you like, hey man, this is I have 793 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.719 a horizon ends in two weeks, so what do you 794 00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:31.519 want to do? You know, But but at the same time, 795 00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.360 you're not actually in charge. So I think by the 796 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:36.480 end of that period you're both ready to get over 797 00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:38.639 with because the the outgoing guy was just ready to go. 798 00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:40.519 He's kind of had enough at that point. 799 00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:44.440 So it is kind of a long PERI So when 800 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.119 all that said and done, I mean I took commands. 801 00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:51.280 Yeah, it was. It was like eleven months after I 802 00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:52.119 left my last job. 803 00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:57.920 You mentioned the idea of going from five to six 804 00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:01.519 is pretty pretty sad as long as you don't like 805 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.519 get fired when you're when you're a captain of a boat. 806 00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:04.800 Right. 807 00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:08.960 So one of the things that we've like been told 808 00:38:09.079 --> 00:38:13.159 from sort of the infantry minded is that five to 809 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:16.280 six can be very political for them. You know that 810 00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:18.960 there's also a political game to be played a lot 811 00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:22.480 of times. Do you feel like in the in the 812 00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:25.519 submarine field that it's it's a bit more pure that 813 00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:29.519 because you are so isolated times and whatnot, that really 814 00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:33.840 it's more job based than them doing them playing the 815 00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:34.960 politics the right way. 816 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:39.280 Letting I'm not sure a photo politics, you know what 817 00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:39.599 I mean. 818 00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:42.760 There are there are further selection boards, you know, like 819 00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.360 so there is a major command selection board after your 820 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:49.920 commands or and so that's that's everybody who went who 821 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:52.519 successfully completed command, who's going to make those sets. But 822 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.719 they're not all going to do major commanders, right, So 823 00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:58.880 your ma, your major commanders are your subarate squadron commanders, 824 00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.800 so you own five or six spots in their CEOs 825 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:07.039 or submarine based CEOs or spring tenders or the big 826 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:07.920 training facilities. 827 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:09.679 So there's there's major commands. 828 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:13.119 So there may be you know, there's the selection stuff 829 00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:14.920 isn't over yet at that point, so there may I 830 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:16.159 mean they's want to call politics. 831 00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:19.280 I mean it is. I would say I would call it. 832 00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:22.360 More like reputation and okay, and you know who if 833 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:26.079 you oppressed or not. Now what what's interesting? I think 834 00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:29.280 about how things boil down. 835 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.239 For submariners on your finness of course, for. 836 00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:34.840 Example, most of what matters is how are you ranked 837 00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:39.199 by your squadron? So so like there isn't much competition. 838 00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:41.119 Would you say you have like three department heads on 839 00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.719 the ship, There isn't that much competition between those three guys. 840 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.360 I mean, there's they have three different jobs. 841 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:48.880 They are kind of ranked against each other, but nobody's 842 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:50.880 really paying attention to that. What they pay attention to, 843 00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:53.760 for example, is that like if you're a navigator, or 844 00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:55.719 are you ranked against the other navigators on. 845 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:57.679 The other ships right, okay, in the. 846 00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:02.880 Squadron, and so the squadron staff and the squadron commodore. 847 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:04.440 They will issue they will issue a ranking. 848 00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:07.960 Letter that ranks who are the top one two three 849 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:11.280 navigators in this one, the top one two three xos, 850 00:40:11.320 --> 00:40:14.119 the top point two three CEOs. That is what goes 851 00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:16.400 into your fit reps. And that is what the COO 852 00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:20.199 XO Major Command Selection Board. See, that's how you get 853 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:21.920 chosen whether you're going to go on or not. 854 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:26.039 Is that process? So is that process political? I mean 855 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:27.239 maybe it depends. 856 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:30.719 I mean again people say political, but I mean it 857 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:34.159 can also be called a reputation that can call a 858 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:34.840 lot of things. 859 00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:39.480 It's fascinating as far as being the sub captain, I know, 860 00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:42.800 like when we talk about like deployments and missions, that's 861 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.920 very sensitive. Actually some of probably some of the deepest 862 00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:48.679 well kept secrets in the United States government is actually 863 00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:50.840 what you guys do at see. 864 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:53.039 But with that in mind, I mean. 865 00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:55.199 Are you able to speak a little bit to sort 866 00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:58.239 of like the pressure that you're feeling as a captain 867 00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:00.400 on one of these submarines, Like the amount of different 868 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.280 things you're having to think about at. 869 00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:05.320 The same time. I mean, I must it must be wild. 870 00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:09.159 Yeah, so I mean it obviously you do different things 871 00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:10.880 depending on what we're part of the world you're in, 872 00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:16.760 So we can't say much about what we do unemployment. 873 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:19.360 I mean it's think they don't call it then calls 874 00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:24.079 a silence service for nothing, and so much of what 875 00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:27.000 you do and obviously you do stuff you can't talk about. 876 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:30.519 I will say that, you know, in terms of the 877 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:31.960 pressure for example. 878 00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:33.679 So what I can't say is, you know, I went 879 00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:36.440 I went undeployment, documented that my ship went undemployment in 880 00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:38.760 twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. We were over there for about 881 00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:42.719 six months in Western Pacific, and it's just really busy 882 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:49.400 water spaces. There's fishing boats everywhere and lots of merchant ships, 883 00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:52.559 and it's just super duper busy. And so for I 884 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.639 felt like the entire time I was over there, you 885 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:58.880 just can't ever let your guard down. You can't never 886 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.000 be you can never be paying attention out of the 887 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:04.119 cornerary of your eye to what's going on as long. 888 00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:05.800 As you're over there, because it's just so busy. 889 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:08.599 One of the one of the things that we do 890 00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:12.880 when you're doing operations and that like for example of 891 00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:17.079 that tractically challenging operations. Is you have basically the XO 892 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.480 will kind of be the captain interstad you know, while 893 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:24.480 you're sleeping, while you're sleeping, so it's you know, we 894 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:26.440 have a term for the job that it takes, but 895 00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:28.800 it's basically your kind of duty captains, so to speak. 896 00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:32.760 So so you can get some sleep, the XO will 897 00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:35.159 take care of the normal. Most things that would be 898 00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:37.320 needed to be a reported to the CEO, they will 899 00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:40.760 take those reports. Most things that require CEO permission, they 900 00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:43.920 will grant that permission for the CEO and the CEO's behalf. 901 00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:47.239 So you can sleep because one of you, basically twenty 902 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:49.079 four to seven has to be paying attention to what's 903 00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:51.599 going on because it's just so busy and things end 904 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.920 very quickly, you know, get interesting and which you don't 905 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.039 want for it. You always want to be boring. Signings 906 00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:01.880 almost never good in that line of work. Yeah, there's 907 00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:04.679 a lot of pressure and it doesn't stop when you're important. 908 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:07.079 I mean, you know, but frankly, in many cases I 909 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:08.639 was more worried when I was important than I was 910 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:10.280 and I was a seat because you're worried about your 911 00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:11.719 guys getting in trouble out of town. 912 00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:13.320 You're worried. 913 00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:15.559 You know, there there's some piece of gear that's break 914 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:16.880 down that you need to get fixed so you can 915 00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:19.320 get back out and do your job. And there's are 916 00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:23.039 the parts here. How's the repair going? You know, And 917 00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:23.639 even when you're. 918 00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:26.760 Important, you never really get the really electric guard down. 919 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.280 So I would tell you that. You know, when we 920 00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:29.760 threw the. 921 00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:31.960 Lines over back in Pearl Harbor and we came back 922 00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.480 from the PLOYMT, it was just such a relief to 923 00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:37.519 be back to where, you know, my own home for 924 00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:40.199 and certainly I can tell you it. Actually it started 925 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:43.280 before that when the Tungus hooked up to me. When 926 00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.039 they threw their lines over, I felt better because, you know, 927 00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:48.760 like in many cases and for imports, you never knew 928 00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:50.239 what you're going to get from tonguess. You didn't know 929 00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:52.199 if they spoke English very well or not. You know, 930 00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:56.239 how are they going to operate? One? Are the operational characteristics? 931 00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:59.079 How well do they understand your ship? And then we 932 00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:03.000 all back harbor and there's the glorious Stea Chector. 933 00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:04.920 You know it is this it's. 934 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:10.519 About to drive multi drive like super powerful US English 935 00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:14.159 speaking you know pilot that those harbor lated back his hand. 936 00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:16.119 You know my ship well, and it's like, okay, we're all, 937 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:19.519 I'm safe. We're all said, that was a. 938 00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:20.400 Very nice skip. 939 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.280 And another one that I know this gets into some 940 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.559 sensitivities too, but are you able to speak at all 941 00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:30.559 about the Russian or Chinese submarines and you know what 942 00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:33.480 their capabilities are, what the threat level is for like 943 00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:36.599 you guys as American submariners. 944 00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:39.639 Yeah, I could talk to Sundary about that. 945 00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:44.199 So we're fortunate and that there was a graph that 946 00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:48.159 the astome Abel telegonce put out in twenty fifteen. This 947 00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:55.840 showed the relative noise data noise characteristics of various adversary submarines, 948 00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:57.239 including Russian. 949 00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:00.079 And Chinese ones at that point. And you can so 950 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:00.519 I could. 951 00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:03.760 Tell like a twenty bagraph and say, Chinese submarines are 952 00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.000 noisy at least they were in twenty fifteen, and the 953 00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:10.199 same basic classes or what they're still building to this day. Okay, 954 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:13.400 I'm sure they may have been improvements to some degree, 955 00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:17.480 but the basic ninety three Shang class SSM that's what 956 00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:21.079 they're building. The type ninety four Gen class SSPN, that's 957 00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:25.480 what they've been building. So Chinese nuclear submarines make it 958 00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:28.000 point at as it would be in an a classific way. 959 00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.760 You can point out and say they're they're pretty noisy 960 00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:32.519 compared to Russian summaries certainly and compared to ours. 961 00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:36.320 Can you say why why theirs this are particularly noisy? 962 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.840 Is it something with the propulsion technology that they just 963 00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:40.119 haven't developed? 964 00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:44.119 Well, I can tell you that open source. 965 00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:48.760 History is will tell you that the Chinese the nuclear 966 00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:53.000 power plant that is in Chinese submarines is a derivative 967 00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:57.000 of a Russian ice frig or nuclear car plant, okay, 968 00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:00.400 which you know those were not built for sous islence, right, 969 00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:04.800 and favorite power plant, So you can imagine that for 970 00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:09.320 reasons probably associated with that, the power plants just it's loud. 971 00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:11.119 It's loud, I mean, it just makes a lot of noise. 972 00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:11.719 For that reason. 973 00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:17.760 Now they are we keep hearing every year that they're 974 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:20.679 about to build entirely and entirely new class in China, 975 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.679 and so that next class can be radically different and 976 00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:26.679 could be much wider than the old ones were, which 977 00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:30.039 could make life much more difficult. Now as diesel submarines, 978 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:34.159 some of them can be quite flat because they don't. 979 00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:35.800 Know that the power plant. You know, they could they 980 00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:36.360 have a battery. 981 00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:40.360 In some cases they are independent profulsions, so they can 982 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:42.679 be very as it is known to be true for 983 00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:46.679 diesel submarines worldwide. They can't be very quiet for that reason. 984 00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:51.480 Well, how do you see? You know, we there was 985 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:56.679 recently that issue with crew members on a naval vessel 986 00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:02.000 using starlink, an unauthorized starlink. Obviously when you guys are 987 00:47:02.039 --> 00:47:05.639 are at depth, like you're fine, but how do you 988 00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:11.559 see you know, modern technology off the shelf in the 989 00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:16.039 hands of you know, anybody can go purchase it being 990 00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:19.920 a threat to you know, the sign service for instance. 991 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:26.599 I think mostly it would be a matter of something 992 00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:29.079 when you pulled into port that the guys on the 993 00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:31.679 top side and turn our cell phones go on, you know, 994 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:34.400 because you can tell you can tell everybody, hey, don't 995 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:34.679 turn it. 996 00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:36.559 Like let's say you're doing something. 997 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:38.360 Where you don't want somebody to notice that you pull 998 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:40.760 in somewhere and you're just going in to get parts 999 00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:43.599 or whatever some brief stop and you're not nobody's getting off. 1000 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:47.800 You might want to not have anybody turn their cell 1001 00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:49.920 phones on, for example, just in case somebody's tracking cell 1002 00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:52.039 phones that would let them know, let somebody know that 1003 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:53.519 you'd pull them into the support. 1004 00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:57.519 So you can tell your through that. You just never 1005 00:47:57.719 --> 00:47:58.800 know when somebody's. 1006 00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:01.320 Gonna you know, sort of preciously turn on their thought 1007 00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.760 anyways because they think they know better, right. But the 1008 00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:06.880 kind of thing we saw to the starling, there's nothing 1009 00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:10.960 we don't have to worry about that because as a submarine, 1010 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:13.079 so from starlink on top of the thing and all 1011 00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:16.039 all the antennas that use it at periscope that they're 1012 00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:20.320 all Navy antennants, they're all you know. Now, obviously you 1013 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:23.239 have to be concerned about you know, somebody told their 1014 00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:24.360 girlfriend where they're going. 1015 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:26.159 You know, you're not supposed to do that. 1016 00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:30.480 But humans are givens, and so there's always a possibility 1017 00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:33.920 to pop sick. Maybe maybe it's always it's obviously not 1018 00:48:33.960 --> 00:48:37.159 one hundred percent always gonna be perfect. So so that's 1019 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:38.400 the kind of that, that's the kind of thing I'd 1020 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:39.320 probably worry about more. 1021 00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:43.000 Yeah, And the other thing you had mentioned to us, 1022 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:46.000 I think before we started the interview was how easy 1023 00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:48.119 it is to get fired as a submarine. 1024 00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:48.559 Captain. 1025 00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.719 Tell us a little bit about that, like, and I mean, 1026 00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:56.440 we see with the uh, you know, surface fleet. You know, 1027 00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:59.000 the Navy seems to fire those captains like it's going 1028 00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.320 out of style. I mean they don't. They don't really hesitate. 1029 00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:03.840 And it sounds like it's even worse on submarines. I 1030 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.840 shouldn't say worse. I mean, I guess it's important to 1031 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:08.559 have accountability. But what are your thoughts? 1032 00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:13.239 Yeah, I mean so, so command is a privilege. You know, 1033 00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.840 you're there's no not everybody gets to do it. You 1034 00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:22.360 don't do it forever. And so you know when you 1035 00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:25.599 go to command, like if if you swap paint, or 1036 00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:28.639 if you touch the bottom, or if win shutters dies 1037 00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:32.280 to maintenance, do they get electrocuted or whatever, you were 1038 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:33.000 going to get fired. 1039 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:33.679 Like, it doesn't. 1040 00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:37.119 It doesn't really matter what the reasons are, you know, 1041 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:40.639 it doesn't like it's the ship. It's the ship is 1042 00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:43.280 a collision with somebody and you're in the rack, you're asleep, 1043 00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:43.880 it doesn't matter. 1044 00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:45.239 You're still going to get fired. Ye. 1045 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:48.519 That is the way that Navy us accountability. That you 1046 00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:51.440 were the senior officer in charge, so it doesn't. Now 1047 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.639 while while you're more junior, listened, people might also be 1048 00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:58.920 held accountable for if they didn't do their jobs. You're 1049 00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:01.119 you're you know that you're done something like that, And 1050 00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:02.440 that's just kind of where it is. Like, you know, 1051 00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:05.400 you just as part of your calculous you understand that 1052 00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:08.119 if you if you have a collision, you're done. You're 1053 00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:11.559 done as CEO if you have a collision. I've never 1054 00:50:11.559 --> 00:50:12.880 seen anybody's reminded. 1055 00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:14.519 That I have so. 1056 00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:18.880 Okay on a on a surface ship. 1057 00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:21.559 But I think I think that they had a sea 1058 00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:24.400 daddy that that took care of it. 1059 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:24.960 It was crazy. 1060 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:28.320 Yeah, at least at least I can say the years 1061 00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:29.480 of my career, I don't know. 1062 00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:32.079 I don't know if any submarine CEO in my career 1063 00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:35.599 that touched the bottom or a swap paint that didn't 1064 00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:39.079 get fired. Sometimes it took a little bit, you know, 1065 00:50:39.079 --> 00:50:41.760 they do the investigation. But as I mentioned, yeah before 1066 00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:44.079 the show, like the CEO is literally the easiest person 1067 00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:46.599 on the ship to fire because like let's say, let's 1068 00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:48.199 say you're a CEO and you want to you want 1069 00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:49.920 to get rid of an apartment head or even a 1070 00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:54.760 chief mm hmm, you have to have documented like that 1071 00:50:54.760 --> 00:50:57.280 that they were as you told them, here's what you're 1072 00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:00.000 not doing right and you gave them a get well planned, 1073 00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:03.119 you know, letter of instruction or whatever, and you counseled 1074 00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:06.599 them and you know, multiple attempts failed. And then once 1075 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:08.880 you do all that, you can put together a df 1076 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:16.119 just uh df C package here the stands for something 1077 00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:20.639 for cause anyways, all on paperwork, AOLF for you as 1078 00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:23.920 the CEO of the common orders and sides. I've lost 1079 00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:26.840 confidency here and you're boom, You're gone. There's no there's 1080 00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:29.480 no DFC package, there's no All I had to say 1081 00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:31.440 is i've lost confidence you're in your ability to can 1082 00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:34.119 and you're done, so no paperwork required. 1083 00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:36.920 Would that be like if that happened, would that be 1084 00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:38.760 the end of their career? Is there a way for 1085 00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:41.840 them to redeem themselves in future assignments or is that 1086 00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:44.199 pretty much they've fallen off the wagon in terms of 1087 00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:47.920 like the promotion, the timeline and that's it. 1088 00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:51.800 Yeah, if you're a really from command, you're you're you're 1089 00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:53.159 you're made, you your final rank. 1090 00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:57.000 Yeah, I mean you're not like fired fired like I 1091 00:51:57.119 --> 00:51:57.559 get it. 1092 00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:01.000 So Like one thing I respect is that when civilians say, 1093 00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:04.480 like you say something like you got fired. Being fired 1094 00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:06.760 in pavilion means like you lost your paycheck, right, And 1095 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:09.400 when you're fired and you know, lose your paycheck, you're 1096 00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:12.840 still in oh five, right, You're still You're just gonna go. 1097 00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:15.159 Who like to say, you're going hand out basketballs at 1098 00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.599 the gimate til you're retire or whatever you're you're going 1099 00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:20.400 to go. There's gonna be some job you go to 1100 00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.320 saff and maybe you'll do valuable work, Like maybe you'll 1101 00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:29.719 do good things in that job, happy, very talented, dedicated 1102 00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:35.559 offers in many casions, A bad days and just the 1103 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:37.360 stars aligned and it was your day. 1104 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:38.079 It wasn't your day. 1105 00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:39.880 And doesn't mean they're not in great people, they're not 1106 00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:42.480 really can't do good things. And and quite frankly, I've 1107 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:45.239 seen I've seen guys that I know got fired from 1108 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.159 command that have then gone on to really successful civilian 1109 00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:51.159 careers right on the outside. So it doesn't mean you're 1110 00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:53.320 a bad person and doesn't mean you won't try your best, 1111 00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:55.599 but it is that's just the way it is, is 1112 00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:56.480 why it navy works. 1113 00:52:56.800 --> 00:53:02.400 Yeah, And so presumably you survived your time as sub captain, 1114 00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:05.400 what was the next stop for you career wise after 1115 00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:06.079 that command? 1116 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:11.599 So after that command tour, I signed up for the Uh. 1117 00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:14.639 So I applied for the Navy's fellowship program, so that 1118 00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:17.960 that's like a think tank fellows program. And I actually 1119 00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:21.320 didn't get in. Initially, I was on an alternate list. Uh. 1120 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:23.480 And I actually was going to retire and go be 1121 00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:24.360 an airline pilot. 1122 00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:30.719 Really yes, And I had got my police license and 1123 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:33.559 uh and my instant rating and really enjoyed it. And 1124 00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:38.280 I put in my retirement papers. I was gonna my 1125 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:39.920 change a command. I was going to retire at my 1126 00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:42.639 change of command. It was going to get a combined ceremony, 1127 00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:47.239 and then I was gonna follow my also activity wife. 1128 00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:48.079 A different service. 1129 00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:52.639 But I was you know, OLIVERR and airline pilots and 1130 00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:54.599 a good good job if you want to commute, like 1131 00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:57.360 you can live one place and and your job can 1132 00:53:57.400 --> 00:53:58.039 be somewhere else. 1133 00:53:58.719 --> 00:53:59.920 So that seemed like a good thing to do. 1134 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:03.280 And then after a couple of weeks of they turned 1135 00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:05.800 down for the fellows program, I got selected off the 1136 00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:09.199 alternate list to go be an a fellow at the 1137 00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:12.679 Center for a New American Security, which is a really qual, 1138 00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:17.920 really good quality excuse me, DC foreign policy and defense 1139 00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:21.599 related think tank. And so I said, all right, that 1140 00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:23.920 sounds great. I can maybe I can do something with that. 1141 00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:28.480 And I pulled my retirement papers and went to CNAs 1142 00:54:28.519 --> 00:54:29.360 as an Avy fellow. 1143 00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:30.039 Wow. 1144 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:33.480 And before I got there, I knew I wanted to 1145 00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:37.119 focus on China because I had seen again for my 1146 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:41.199 time at that Halsey Alpha Group at the Naval War College, 1147 00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:43.199 I had what I think was a little bit of 1148 00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:46.320 the head of the curve understanding of the military threat 1149 00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:49.480 that China was going to pose. Also from me, my 1150 00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:51.880 ship was a specific fleet ship, so I'd been thoroughly 1151 00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:55.960 briefed on all the things that PLAEA was doing and 1152 00:54:56.199 --> 00:54:58.559 progress they were making. So I was excited to go 1153 00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:03.199 to that think tank and be abble to buy some 1154 00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:05.679 of what I knew and learn new things and really 1155 00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:10.000 focus on helping to understand the China the military threat 1156 00:55:10.039 --> 00:55:13.400 that was coming from China at that point starting to 1157 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:14.079 appear from. 1158 00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:14.719 China at that point. 1159 00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:18.880 And so I mean, there's a whole bunch of like 1160 00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:22.639 subtopics under that we can talk to. But at what 1161 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:24.880 point did the Office of Net Assessment come up on 1162 00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:25.480 their radar? 1163 00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:29.840 So that was a couple of years later. 1164 00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:34.360 So I did my thing at CNAs for a year 1165 00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:37.840 and I wrote I wrote some reports there I first 1166 00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:40.920 wrote a report about China. South China, see the South 1167 00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:43.920 China see islands, the big artificial islands they were building, 1168 00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:47.679 so that one was at that point the kind of 1169 00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:52.360 the party line was that those were not militarily significant facilities, 1170 00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:54.360 at least for Squether's back to the United States. 1171 00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:56.960 So they didn't. They were just an airstrip and a reef. 1172 00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:02.400 And I'll never forget when I was there, I started 1173 00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:05.840 looking at Google Earth and looking at those things, and 1174 00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:09.480 because I thought too, like, it's just just a reef 1175 00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:11.559 with the with an airstrip on it, you know, I wonder, 1176 00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:12.119 I wonder. 1177 00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:13.440 What's up of these things? 1178 00:56:14.119 --> 00:56:18.039 And at that time csis the Center for Strategic and 1179 00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:20.960 International Studies. I've been doing some great stuff with imagery, 1180 00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:23.679 and it showed what they were building on these islands, 1181 00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:27.320 and you could see these huge towers on each corner 1182 00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:30.519 of the island with multiple like places that looked like 1183 00:56:30.639 --> 00:56:32.559 turrets would go on them. And so I'm starting to think, 1184 00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:35.119 maybe these things are a big deal. And then I 1185 00:56:35.199 --> 00:56:39.000 measured one of them. I've been mischief brief and I 1186 00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:41.000 and I measured the lagoon. It was like three or 1187 00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:44.599 four miles across, and I thought, yeah, that is that's 1188 00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:47.480 really big. And so I went on a Google Earth 1189 00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:49.920 and I looked at the District of Columbia, and I 1190 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:54.039 looked at Mischief brief walked into kind of putting out 1191 00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:57.000 a copy of each and I walked into the office 1192 00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:59.880 of our executive vice president, Sean Brimley, who's now deceased, 1193 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:06.280 for feeders, and and I placed on his desk, so 1194 00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:10.119 this is the one of those island air bases they built. 1195 00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:12.400 This is the District of Columbia, and these are at 1196 00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:15.400 the same scale. He was like, oh my god, these 1197 00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:18.199 things are huge. And so I wrote an article saying, 1198 00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:22.159 as you master the obvious, these islands are huge, they 1199 00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:24.519 are a big deal, and they matter militarily each one 1200 00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:27.039 of them. Treat them as a full sized air base, 1201 00:57:27.039 --> 00:57:30.360 because that's what they are. They have bardened, they have hangers, 1202 00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:34.760 they have munition storage, they have ardened underground fuel tanks. 1203 00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:37.840 This salt being built at that time ten thousands with runways. 1204 00:57:38.119 --> 00:57:41.280 They're full sized air bases. And I think that that 1205 00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:44.079 started to change the conversation. A little bit later on, 1206 00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:47.880 I looked at the PLA Rocket Force, which again is 1207 00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:51.239 some viewers may not be familiar with this The PLA 1208 00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:54.440 Rocket Force is an entire arm of the Chinese military 1209 00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:57.519 that is built around long range, pursued and strike missiles, 1210 00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:00.400 both nuclear and conventional. And we could talk more about 1211 00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:02.840 that later, but I was really fascinated with that, and 1212 00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:03.719 I got to learn a. 1213 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:05.360 Lot about them while I was there. I wrote about them. 1214 00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:06.920 I wrote about the threat that they post to our 1215 00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:07.719 faces in the Asia. 1216 00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:14.280 What the uh so our during World War two? Like 1217 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:19.079 our war in the Pacific? Moving across to Japan, it 1218 00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:21.039 seemed like it was for a lot of the tolls, 1219 00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:26.440 a lot of inconsequential islands. Is that at all like 1220 00:58:26.599 --> 00:58:32.039 remnant reflective on like these these artificial islands that China's building, 1221 00:58:34.360 --> 00:58:35.320 I know, it's in. 1222 00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:37.800 Some ways, it's kind of similar. In some ways, it's 1223 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:42.639 pretty different. I mean, uh, they're definitely definitely they are 1224 00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:46.320 mostly for peacetime. I mean, like, so, let's say you've 1225 00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:49.119 got lots of viewerselves said, well, we'll have seen on 1226 00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:54.239 the news these giants Chinese postcard ships water you know 1227 00:58:54.280 --> 00:58:56.440 water canyoning is Philippine boats. 1228 00:58:56.960 --> 00:58:58.280 Uh, and you know the aisles of. 1229 00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:01.719 Those post wardships were all operating out of those island bases. 1230 00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:05.360 The not all a lot of them. That's one of 1231 00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:09.519 the places they operate from. All these Chinese maritime militia 1232 00:59:09.639 --> 00:59:14.199 fish fishing boats. They're not actually fishing obviously, they're based 1233 00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:15.280 out of those island bases. 1234 00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:17.039 So they are crucial in peace time. 1235 00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:22.119 They are a crucial facility that supports long term operation 1236 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:25.239 in those in those water those contested waters, whereas we 1237 00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:26.960 just kind of the US will kind of make these 1238 00:59:26.960 --> 00:59:30.719 episodic trips down there, show the flag dofone OPS, their 1239 00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:33.280 navigation operations whatever. But then we then we leave, right 1240 00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:35.599 and so then the locals they're kind of on their 1241 00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:37.280 own again, where the Chinese are there all the time. 1242 00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:39.079 They are able to do that because of those bases. 1243 00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:43.880 In wartime, those bases would help the Chinese to protect 1244 00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:46.960 the South China Sea approaches to the to their major 1245 00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:49.239 ports Shanghai, Hong Kong. 1246 00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:51.440 Those control the approaches. 1247 00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:54.119 To those ports, which really matters, and their ability to 1248 00:59:54.159 --> 00:59:57.119 maintain the their you know, their supplies of oil and 1249 00:59:57.360 --> 01:00:00.400 national resources and all that open. So it's a little 1250 01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:03.159 more of a static thing war time. Can we roll 1251 01:00:03.199 --> 01:00:05.679 them up and move across that part of the world. 1252 01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:10.000 I mean, maybe it's going to be very different challenge 1253 01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:10.880 than the Japanese were. 1254 01:00:10.960 --> 01:00:13.639 We have to remember with Japan. 1255 01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:16.599 Was even the Japanese knew that when they launched the attack 1256 01:00:16.599 --> 01:00:20.280 on Pearl Harbor, that we had this salute tsunami of 1257 01:00:20.599 --> 01:00:23.239 naval ship building that had already started in nineteen thirty 1258 01:00:23.239 --> 01:00:26.679 eight nineteen forty a huge ship building program, and those 1259 01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:29.760 ships of ours were going to come online nineteen forty two, 1260 01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:32.960 forty three, forty four. They saw that company that our 1261 01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:36.800 ship building industry was way larger than theirs was, and 1262 01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:38.639 that they were all they could do ope was to 1263 01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:43.880 hold on. Now find this shipbuilding industry is literally hundreds 1264 01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:48.760 of times larger than ours is. We built seventy thousand 1265 01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:52.119 tons of shipping and twenty twenty four I believe, and 1266 01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:56.519 China built twenty six million tons of shipping. I mean, 1267 01:00:56.559 --> 01:01:00.480 the numbers are standing. The Japanese mercier marine we sank 1268 01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:03.519 to World War Two, it's about nine million times of 1269 01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:05.400 shipping when the war started, and that we whittled it 1270 01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:07.199 down to the essentially nothing by the end of the 1271 01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:11.159 war kind of has right now more than three hundred 1272 01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:15.920 million times of shipping. So it is the numbers are incredible. 1273 01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:17.199 It's a very different situation. 1274 01:01:17.519 --> 01:01:20.400 What can you tell us a little bit, because I've 1275 01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:25.960 read bits and pieces of this that our like, our shipbuilding. 1276 01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:27.400 Is really. 1277 01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:30.920 It's kind of a travesty at this point, and it 1278 01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:33.679 hasn't been addressed at all until recently. 1279 01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:39.639 Yeah, it's not going well, Midge put it bluntly. So 1280 01:01:40.480 --> 01:01:43.000 there's a lot of different reasons for why that's the case. 1281 01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:45.519 I mean, in general, in general, the United States, the 1282 01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:48.599 defense industrial base in general is having lots of issues 1283 01:01:48.639 --> 01:01:52.559 because we have turned into mostly a service economy, so 1284 01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:57.679 we're necessarily the best anymore at building things. More specifically 1285 01:01:58.400 --> 01:02:00.840 the submarines worst. You know, at the end of the 1286 01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:03.519 Cold War. We add this huge drawdown in the size 1287 01:02:03.519 --> 01:02:04.880 of the Navy at the end of the Cold War, 1288 01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:08.760 and so while I can't state to specifics on surface ships, 1289 01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:12.079 at that point, we basically stopped buying submarines for about 1290 01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:14.400 a decade. We bought one or two submarines over over 1291 01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:19.119 a decade, and so the workforce at the stift yards 1292 01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:22.440 that build our submarines just collapsed and there was a 1293 01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:27.239 lot of consolidation, and so we've really parted building submarines 1294 01:02:27.239 --> 01:02:30.119 again in early two thousands, but we are still paying 1295 01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:35.519 for that that kind of short sighted, huge contraction. 1296 01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:38.000 In a submarine and industrial base. It's still taking time 1297 01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:38.639 for us to do that. 1298 01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:41.320 And what we have is happening right now is we 1299 01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:43.599 have this at the same time that we're trying to 1300 01:02:43.599 --> 01:02:46.559 build more attack submarines to be able to deal with 1301 01:02:46.639 --> 01:02:49.440 China because they are one of the few survival platforms 1302 01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:53.039 that can operate within range of China's and missile forces 1303 01:02:53.119 --> 01:02:58.360 on a regular basis in wartime. We're also replacing all 1304 01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:02.400 of our ballistic missile submarines bioclass, so they're being replaced 1305 01:03:02.440 --> 01:03:03.360 with the Columbia class. 1306 01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:05.239 So the blistic missile submarine that is. 1307 01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:09.880 That is the nation's number one highest priority building program, 1308 01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:12.119 so it can it crowds out the attack submarines for 1309 01:03:12.119 --> 01:03:14.519 no reason because it has to be the priority because 1310 01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:17.159 if you don't have nuclear deterrence on the other side, 1311 01:03:17.440 --> 01:03:19.800 if you don't have a nuclear deturne youth rely on, 1312 01:03:19.960 --> 01:03:22.960 then you're out of schwits at that point. So that's 1313 01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:25.840 and and the submarines are the survivable part of our 1314 01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:29.519 nuclear triad. The part that twenty four seven, three sixty five, 1315 01:03:29.559 --> 01:03:32.679 there's multiple submarines out at sea are the nuclear weapons 1316 01:03:32.679 --> 01:03:35.119 that will never be taken by surprise that have plenty 1317 01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:36.920 of time to shoot back, and our infistration to know that. 1318 01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:41.159 So there's this huge coming together of all of that together. 1319 01:03:41.199 --> 01:03:43.159 So they're trying to build more attack submarines both for 1320 01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:46.159 US and also now for our Australian allies on the 1321 01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:50.679 Office program, in combination with the recapitalization and replacement of 1322 01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:54.000 our Biot class submarines. Now, to be clear, the SSPN 1323 01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.039 program is not an expansion. There may be there are 1324 01:03:56.079 --> 01:03:58.199 sometimes the anti nuclear folks that will say, oh, we're 1325 01:03:58.239 --> 01:03:59.320 expanding a nuclear tria. 1326 01:03:59.440 --> 01:03:59.840 No we're not. 1327 01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:04.199 We're replacing fourteen boats with twelve. Each boat only has 1328 01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:08.400 sixteen tubes instead of twenty four the previous class. It's 1329 01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:11.360 not an expansion. It's alike for like with fewer numbers, 1330 01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:14.559 replacement of ships that just happen to be replaced as 1331 01:04:14.599 --> 01:04:17.039 at forty plus years old. 1332 01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:21.559 And are we do we have the manufacturing ability to 1333 01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:24.159 do this? Are we outsourcing a lot of this? What 1334 01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:29.199 is our government like, what's our capability and our plan? 1335 01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:32.360 I mean, so there's lots. 1336 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:37.960 Lot there's really very complex plans for making this happen. 1337 01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:41.719 There's not really much outsourcing in the sense of going 1338 01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:45.400 overseas for any of this work. But they are building 1339 01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:49.239 new factories like I think hostiles shipbuilding. This starting to 1340 01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:51.840 open our new factory down on the Gulf coast that 1341 01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:53.840 is going to start to build modules like those that 1342 01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:56.360 go into submarines. So they aren't There is a huge 1343 01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:59.960 amount of investment in the US industrial days to try 1344 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:02.320 to make to get these programs, keep trying to get 1345 01:05:02.320 --> 01:05:04.639 them back on track. There a little bit behind them 1346 01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:07.199 are more some more than others, and trying to get 1347 01:05:07.239 --> 01:05:09.960 them fully Again. Things are a little different in the 1348 01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:13.840 surface ship world. I think there that our destroyer program 1349 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:16.880 is generally coming along pretty well arly Burkmass to Shroyers. 1350 01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:20.480 This is in contrast to the LCS Fulteral combat ship 1351 01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:23.559 and the zoom Wall class, which both of which were disasters. 1352 01:05:24.800 --> 01:05:28.159 Those were ships that a little different flavor than the submarine. 1353 01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:32.159 Contraction is that the surface force. They kept building surface ships, 1354 01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:35.480 but there was this decision the deft of the Cold War, 1355 01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:37.199 We're going to build these ships that are going to 1356 01:05:37.239 --> 01:05:41.760 operate close to shore, probably not against the peer competitor. 1357 01:05:42.159 --> 01:05:44.199 So we're going to have this transformation. We're going to 1358 01:05:44.239 --> 01:05:46.519 have these lightly crude. 1359 01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:50.559 Highly automated multi purpose ships, and it was it was 1360 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:54.119 a master I mean lcs. We built two different classes 1361 01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:56.920 in the ships, totally different classes, which made no sense. 1362 01:05:57.039 --> 01:06:00.400 I think we made a lot of sacrifice is that 1363 01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:02.440 they can go really fast even though they don't actually 1364 01:06:02.440 --> 01:06:04.880 need to go faster their missions. And then the zoom 1365 01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:07.480 wall classes, you know, we built three of them instead 1366 01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:10.079 of building to thirty. They were so when you when 1367 01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:12.679 you all of your development costs are crowded into three 1368 01:06:12.719 --> 01:06:14.480 ships because you cancel the rest of the class, that 1369 01:06:14.559 --> 01:06:17.119 each one's worth six or seven million dollars. Yeah, and 1370 01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:19.239 then you and then you cancel. I don't think it's 1371 01:06:19.239 --> 01:06:21.519 more than six or seven. It was just an incredible amount. 1372 01:06:22.280 --> 01:06:24.639 So it just kind of always sideways. And and of 1373 01:06:24.679 --> 01:06:27.199 course none of those ships are really, at least in 1374 01:06:27.239 --> 01:06:32.159 their original form, are are really appropriated for a peer 1375 01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:33.199 competitor like China. 1376 01:06:35.480 --> 01:06:35.920 What's uh? 1377 01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:39.119 You know, while we're on this topic of ships and shipbuilding, 1378 01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:41.960 get a little bit deeper into the rocket issue that 1379 01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:44.920 you you talked about how the rocket program is kind 1380 01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:48.039 of the crown jewel of the Chinese military and that 1381 01:06:48.079 --> 01:06:50.920 would be the you know, primary threat that I presume 1382 01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:53.280 our navy would be facing in a potential war in 1383 01:06:53.320 --> 01:06:56.519 the South China Sea, it would be one of them. 1384 01:06:56.679 --> 01:07:01.960 I mean, so what the PLA Rocket Force does is 1385 01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:04.360 so first of all, it wasn't its own service until 1386 01:07:04.360 --> 01:07:08.519 twenty fifteen and twenty fifteen season paying elevated. The play 1387 01:07:08.599 --> 01:07:10.960 Rocket Force would be equal to the other branches of 1388 01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:11.760 the Chinese military. 1389 01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:12.840 So it's equal now to the. 1390 01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:14.920 Air Force, it's equal to the aren't to the ground 1391 01:07:14.960 --> 01:07:20.199 force in the Navy. And what they've done, it's remarkable, 1392 01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:23.199 is you know, twenty thirty years ago, all they had 1393 01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:26.039 was nuclear weapons. So the Peli Rocket Force was kind 1394 01:07:26.039 --> 01:07:28.599 of equivalent to our you know, we have ICBMs too, 1395 01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:30.480 we have submarine blistic missile. 1396 01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:33.599 They're all nuclear tipped. They're just for nuclear deterrence. Right, 1397 01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:34.480 that was what they had. 1398 01:07:34.519 --> 01:07:38.840 Then they also had a few very inaccurate conventional missiles, 1399 01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:40.559 kind of like the scuds that we saw in the 1400 01:07:41.320 --> 01:07:42.519 you know, in the Desert Storm. 1401 01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:42.679 Right. 1402 01:07:42.719 --> 01:07:45.880 They they're not really useful against military targets. Maybe you 1403 01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:47.599 get luck every once in a while and hits some pit, 1404 01:07:47.679 --> 01:07:50.920 a barracks or something, but they're not they're conventional weapons. 1405 01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:53.199 They're not if they're not accurate then' not nuclear then 1406 01:07:53.239 --> 01:07:54.159 they can't really do that much. 1407 01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:58.000 What China brought from the table over the last twenty 1408 01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:02.440 years is apparent ballisticness like you're a single digit number 1409 01:08:02.440 --> 01:08:05.079 of meters because we can see the impact points on 1410 01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:07.960 their impact britages where they can punch a hole in 1411 01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:11.920 the top of a building or aircraft shelter or whatever 1412 01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:16.600 using a ballistic missile. That is a unique combination of 1413 01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:20.119 a new combination of the capabilities because now it means 1414 01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:23.000 it can reach out one thousand, two thousand and three 1415 01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:26.760 thousand miles and strike targets with precidon. And this is 1416 01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:29.039 to be clear, this is not what we saw from 1417 01:08:29.079 --> 01:08:32.319 a RAM when they when they struck Gibert right. Ram's 1418 01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:34.800 weapons were not very accurate. There weren't any of them. 1419 01:08:35.640 --> 01:08:37.439 They didn't really as far as being I don't really 1420 01:08:37.479 --> 01:08:40.079 have an ability to get around ballistic missile defenses. 1421 01:08:40.479 --> 01:08:42.640 China is far more capable of that. 1422 01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:46.840 Uh and appeally rocket forces is that's what they own 1423 01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:49.239 and there's no there is no equivalent service in the 1424 01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:50.479 US military that does that. 1425 01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:50.920 We have. 1426 01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:54.399 We see bms in the hand with the Air Force, 1427 01:08:54.439 --> 01:08:58.079 but they're all nuclear tips the Army, the Army is 1428 01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:01.520 now starting to have some long range conventional ballistic missiles, 1429 01:09:01.840 --> 01:09:03.399 the jazz Tiphon system. 1430 01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:07.560 You know, not people. The numbers are very small, so 1431 01:09:08.359 --> 01:09:09.199 they've been in development. 1432 01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:11.159 I think there's a few devloid operationally because the are 1433 01:09:11.239 --> 01:09:16.039 very small numbers as opposed to the Elie Rocket Force 1434 01:09:17.239 --> 01:09:20.920 five hundred intermediate range ballistic missiles that can reach law 1435 01:09:22.119 --> 01:09:24.920 that are almost all conventional and they also have ANNI 1436 01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:25.680 ship gave aboise. 1437 01:09:25.720 --> 01:09:27.720 They also can be swapped for an A shipboard heads. 1438 01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:32.880 They have thirteen hundred medium range ballistic missiles now, according 1439 01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:35.960 to the DoD the last China Military Power Report, I 1440 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:38.840 can strikes all of Japan essentially and the Philippines. 1441 01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:41.479 I mean, you know, it's like, what else are these things? 1442 01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:44.680 Former than a record basis an Asian right. I think 1443 01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:47.479 we fired a couple of jazzm's that Uncle Asad just 1444 01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:51.159 to proof that they work. But the number of them, yeah, 1445 01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:53.800 aren't the numbers we have that are published. It's like 1446 01:09:53.840 --> 01:09:58.000 in the hundreds of which ones the JAZZM. 1447 01:10:00.039 --> 01:10:04.399 Well, Jasmin is an air launch uh christmastle, I believe 1448 01:10:04.439 --> 01:10:08.960 in yourself airplanes, So they got those two? 1449 01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:13.119 Trust me. The PLA Air Force has too. 1450 01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:16.359 So out of curiosity, And something we've talked about on 1451 01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:19.920 the show before is the level of Chinese espionage and 1452 01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:22.239 our inability to stop it in the States and how 1453 01:10:23.199 --> 01:10:27.520 really the Chinese don't have to They don't really have 1454 01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:31.840 to have a strong development program because anything that's developed 1455 01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:35.359 in the US is immediately in the hands of the Chinese. 1456 01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:39.039 Is that something that you've seen, Is that something that 1457 01:10:39.319 --> 01:10:41.119 you've spoken to, Is that something you believe? 1458 01:10:42.199 --> 01:10:45.119 Can you give us like basically your take on that. 1459 01:10:46.840 --> 01:10:50.000 So espionage certainly is a very real thing. 1460 01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:53.720 We have seen in the last couple of years, We've 1461 01:10:53.720 --> 01:10:56.880 seen multiple instances of in some cases service. 1462 01:10:56.680 --> 01:11:00.600 Numbers that have been caught spine of the Chinese. 1463 01:11:01.680 --> 01:11:05.039 Certainly there's been penetration of in particular of the US 1464 01:11:05.399 --> 01:11:09.680 Department Fits contractors have been penetrated by by the Chinese, 1465 01:11:11.560 --> 01:11:14.079 sort of a full typhoons thing that's happened more recently. 1466 01:11:14.159 --> 01:11:18.520 And so for sure, Chinese faber penetration out. 1467 01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:20.319 Of US organizations, and it's a huge problem. 1468 01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:23.439 What I would say is becoming less of a problem 1469 01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:27.600 is for many years we had this impression that they 1470 01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:30.960 were mostly copying our stuff, right, so they have the 1471 01:11:31.720 --> 01:11:34.119 the twenty helicopter looks kind of like a black cop 1472 01:11:34.880 --> 01:11:37.560 They're CHANGE thirty five, which is kind of like F 1473 01:11:37.640 --> 01:11:38.920 thirty five, although it's not the same. 1474 01:11:39.319 --> 01:11:41.359 There are some major difference. It's not a copy, but 1475 01:11:41.439 --> 01:11:46.960 it is similar looking. So they're adv cases. 1476 01:11:46.720 --> 01:11:49.239 Where they were, and I'm quite frankly a lot of 1477 01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:52.399 their weapons systems are at brushing derived where copies are 1478 01:11:52.439 --> 01:11:57.279 Brushian weapons. That's becoming less true now, so China is 1479 01:11:57.359 --> 01:12:00.159 now they're now innovating. They're doing their own things. You 1480 01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:03.920 have the J thirty six, the new Delta Wing, huge 1481 01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:06.680 long range strike fighter that doesn't look like anything we have. 1482 01:12:07.560 --> 01:12:12.079 You have the the new invasion barges that make the 1483 01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:16.159 guys that floating pier right like a bunch of tinker toys. Right. 1484 01:12:17.399 --> 01:12:19.399 They have the Rent High Cruiser that's probably the most 1485 01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:22.239 powerful surface combatant on the planet at this point. It 1486 01:12:22.319 --> 01:12:25.319 doesn't look like anything in the US has. You have 1487 01:12:26.079 --> 01:12:28.680 a new class of submarines, the Type forty one. This 1488 01:12:28.880 --> 01:12:31.560 is one that the Department of Defense says, actually the 1489 01:12:31.600 --> 01:12:34.600 first one is saying con Peer last year Rick Laumas. 1490 01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:37.119 They also said it was like a hybrid nuclear diesel 1491 01:12:38.279 --> 01:12:40.960 type propulsion system. First of it's kind of the world. 1492 01:12:41.479 --> 01:12:45.159 You have the type seventy six do Amphibius assault ship 1493 01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:47.520 that has a catapult. I've never seen that before. Anthems 1494 01:12:47.560 --> 01:12:50.399 don't have catapults. And then anybody else's navy, so they 1495 01:12:50.439 --> 01:12:53.079 can launch its own drones, have its own strike strike 1496 01:12:53.159 --> 01:12:55.119 aircraft as part of the thirty's AsSalt ship. 1497 01:12:55.640 --> 01:12:57.000 So there's there's a lot of things. 1498 01:12:57.039 --> 01:12:59.319 And that's not of course, that's not to mention the again, 1499 01:12:59.520 --> 01:13:03.600 hundreds of hundreds of anti ship ballistic missiles, which these 1500 01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:05.359 have a few of those that they've they've lost in 1501 01:13:05.359 --> 01:13:08.199 our ships that they were way behind the Chinese, I'm 1502 01:13:08.319 --> 01:13:11.800 sure nowhere near sophisticated. So the Chinese invented that weapon system, 1503 01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:14.119 nobody else on the planet that anti ship holistic missiles 1504 01:13:14.239 --> 01:13:14.600 or they did. 1505 01:13:14.720 --> 01:13:17.319 So the days of them just copying what we have 1506 01:13:17.600 --> 01:13:19.720 that was true for a while, but it is very 1507 01:13:19.800 --> 01:13:25.560 much less true now. And how do you think the us. 1508 01:13:27.399 --> 01:13:31.520 UH can keep up or match because we used to 1509 01:13:31.640 --> 01:13:34.319 be known for our innovation, right like we used to 1510 01:13:34.399 --> 01:13:36.920 be on the cutting edge of military tech? 1511 01:13:37.319 --> 01:13:40.239 Are we still have we fallen behind? Like what's your 1512 01:13:40.640 --> 01:13:42.439 what's your sort of assessment of that? 1513 01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:47.119 Would like to think that things are turning around some 1514 01:13:47.680 --> 01:13:48.159 I mean we have. 1515 01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:53.439 There's certainly tremendous effort that do do you try to 1516 01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:59.960 innovate faster, to develop reformed acquisition processes, to prome ute. 1517 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:03.720 It's kind of incubators for new technologies, to try to 1518 01:14:03.880 --> 01:14:08.760 to try to embrace uncrewed systems and smaller systems and 1519 01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:12.359 more disperged and disperse operating forces, to try to get 1520 01:14:12.359 --> 01:14:15.680 away from those small numbers of large bases and large platforms. 1521 01:14:16.479 --> 01:14:19.239 So I think there is an effort a foot for sure. 1522 01:14:19.560 --> 01:14:21.640 Is it as urgent as I think it needs to be. 1523 01:14:21.720 --> 01:14:24.720 I don't think so. I think it's hard to get 1524 01:14:24.760 --> 01:14:29.000 away from a lot of entrenched to be to some 1525 01:14:29.199 --> 01:14:32.119 degree in trench officer communities that are kind of used 1526 01:14:32.119 --> 01:14:34.479 to doing things one way, one way, as well as 1527 01:14:34.640 --> 01:14:39.880 congressional interest groups and defense primes that are haven't you know, 1528 01:14:39.920 --> 01:14:42.439 are invested in the things being the way they are. 1529 01:14:43.560 --> 01:14:46.239 So I do worry that some cauthoritic and that will 1530 01:14:46.279 --> 01:14:50.439 have to happen to really break break loasi of the 1531 01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:55.760 old ways of doing business. But you know, we certainly 1532 01:14:55.840 --> 01:14:58.079 can innovate. I mean, there are there are incredible things 1533 01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:00.520 we're doing. I'm sure with AI and which we learning. 1534 01:15:04.880 --> 01:15:06.960 There are big things for doing, for sure, But I mean, yeah, 1535 01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:08.319 it's not all a good news story. 1536 01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:10.039 That's that's that's for sure too. 1537 01:15:10.920 --> 01:15:14.600 One of the topics that you mentioned that I'd like 1538 01:15:14.680 --> 01:15:16.279 to make sure we hit up is that you had 1539 01:15:16.319 --> 01:15:19.199 written an article where you found an impact range that's 1540 01:15:19.399 --> 01:15:23.399 modeled off of an American naval facility. Can you tell 1541 01:15:23.479 --> 01:15:25.800 us sort of what that what that was, and what 1542 01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:28.520 it means strategically, like what the conclusion was from this? 1543 01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:32.640 So yeah, this was again, this was during my time 1544 01:15:32.720 --> 01:15:35.199 at CNIS the first time, and it's better. I'm back 1545 01:15:35.279 --> 01:15:35.800 at CNAs. 1546 01:15:35.880 --> 01:15:39.680 I'm trying to retired and now jumped sheer fellow at CNIS. 1547 01:15:39.800 --> 01:15:42.800 So I have affiliation with them to this day. I 1548 01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:46.680 re established after I retired from an eighty. But so 1549 01:15:47.159 --> 01:15:49.399 what I found there was I was looking at Google 1550 01:15:49.439 --> 01:15:51.359 Earth and I knew I was interested in the PLA 1551 01:15:51.479 --> 01:15:53.399 Rocket Force and seeing what they were doing. 1552 01:15:54.079 --> 01:15:57.479 And I found on the Internet the coordinates. 1553 01:15:57.199 --> 01:16:00.640 To one of their impact ranges in Western China's where 1554 01:16:00.640 --> 01:16:02.600 they this is, this is where they test the missiles 1555 01:16:03.479 --> 01:16:06.880 on targets like that, theyically shoot them from eastern China. 1556 01:16:06.920 --> 01:16:09.399 They go all over China and the impact in the 1557 01:16:09.479 --> 01:16:12.600 desert in western China. And so I found the coordinates 1558 01:16:12.640 --> 01:16:14.560 for one of these impact ranges, and I'm looking at 1559 01:16:14.600 --> 01:16:18.560 it and I'm seeing some shapes and fake fake so 1560 01:16:18.680 --> 01:16:22.520 the mock runway and airfield and you could see uh 1561 01:16:23.079 --> 01:16:25.600 hardener aircraft shelters, and so you can see them testing 1562 01:16:25.640 --> 01:16:30.079 against various targets that people had seen before, and that were, 1563 01:16:30.199 --> 01:16:31.600 you know, kind of thing you would expect that they 1564 01:16:31.640 --> 01:16:34.359 were working on. But then I saw this shape. It 1565 01:16:34.479 --> 01:16:37.479 was like a long skate and a long shape and 1566 01:16:38.119 --> 01:16:40.439 the multiple multiples of them, and I'm looking at it 1567 01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:42.399 and I'm like, is that is that a ship? Is 1568 01:16:42.439 --> 01:16:44.800 it like an ashorer? And so I magnered this thing 1569 01:16:44.880 --> 01:16:47.399 and it's about five hundred and twenty feet long something 1570 01:16:47.479 --> 01:16:50.560 like that. I wonder how big a US Army bird 1571 01:16:50.600 --> 01:16:53.319 classes story areas it was basically the same size, like, oh, 1572 01:16:53.479 --> 01:16:56.000 this is the ship. These are ship shaped targets that 1573 01:16:56.039 --> 01:17:00.680 they're shooting at, presumably for like warhead. I would guess 1574 01:17:00.720 --> 01:17:04.960 it was for warhead terminal seekers like the electroptical secrets 1575 01:17:05.039 --> 01:17:08.479 orself some kind of image recognition thing, Okay, but it 1576 01:17:08.560 --> 01:17:11.239 could be somebody else's destroyer too. The other countries have 1577 01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:14.920 the shorters that size. Also, notice this black line that 1578 01:17:15.039 --> 01:17:17.800 was going around these shapes, the kind of a black outline, 1579 01:17:18.359 --> 01:17:20.520 And I thought something in that back of night, gad thought, 1580 01:17:21.079 --> 01:17:23.840 it kind of reminds me of the Enter Harbor in Yakoska, Japan. 1581 01:17:24.159 --> 01:17:26.720 That's the headquarters and the seventh Fleet is where a 1582 01:17:26.840 --> 01:17:30.119 carrier's based out of. And so I looked on Google 1583 01:17:30.199 --> 01:17:33.640 Earth and I found the Cosca and I looked at 1584 01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:36.359 this impact range and they were a mirror image that 1585 01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:39.760 the black line on the chart on the on the 1586 01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:42.840 ground in western China was a mirror image of the 1587 01:17:43.039 --> 01:17:45.800 Inner Harbor Ya Cosca. And you could get that articles 1588 01:17:45.800 --> 01:17:47.239 and I wrote an article about that. The kind have 1589 01:17:47.279 --> 01:17:50.239 a lot of attention. Look like look because if you 1590 01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:53.920 think about it, they're practicing on multiple ships in a port. Well, 1591 01:17:54.039 --> 01:17:56.479 how do you catch multiple ships in a port? You 1592 01:17:56.600 --> 01:17:58.760 strike my surprise, right, that that's how you do that. 1593 01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:00.960 Otherwise they're going to be at see if they have 1594 01:18:01.039 --> 01:18:02.159 warning that attacks coming. 1595 01:18:03.039 --> 01:18:04.680 So here they are practicing. 1596 01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:08.399 Essentially, I'm just saying what looks like surprise attacks against US, 1597 01:18:08.439 --> 01:18:11.800 specifically a US base. So that I've got a favorite 1598 01:18:11.840 --> 01:18:14.560 of attention now and a couple of years after that, 1599 01:18:14.720 --> 01:18:19.039 I also found that the same impact range mock up 1600 01:18:19.159 --> 01:18:21.439 of an E three ax in aircraft. So it's a 1601 01:18:21.560 --> 01:18:24.760 spitting image at an E three AX Uni stakeably that 1602 01:18:25.039 --> 01:18:27.880 that airframe. We're the only country in the Western Pacific 1603 01:18:27.960 --> 01:18:32.520 that operates those, So that was clearly about us. And 1604 01:18:32.600 --> 01:18:36.159 then later a year or two later, I had a 1605 01:18:36.239 --> 01:18:38.520 Japanese reporter reach out and say, hey, I found this 1606 01:18:38.600 --> 01:18:41.399 airplane target. Can you tell me at a different impact 1607 01:18:41.479 --> 01:18:42.439 range the same idea? 1608 01:18:43.319 --> 01:18:43.720 You tell me? 1609 01:18:43.760 --> 01:18:45.720 Who recognize it? And so I look at this and 1610 01:18:45.800 --> 01:18:47.479 again it's an AX airplane, you know, with a big 1611 01:18:47.560 --> 01:18:51.039 radar on top, big round rado. This only has two engines, 1612 01:18:51.479 --> 01:18:54.600 which I thought, that's weird and ax Rix three. 1613 01:18:55.840 --> 01:18:57.479 And I look at it and sure out through like 1614 01:18:57.640 --> 01:19:01.000 one airplane. Only one airport warning aircraft. 1615 01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:03.840 On the planet that has those, and that's the Japanese. 1616 01:19:03.880 --> 01:19:05.960 Since the East seven to sixty seven, it's only operated 1617 01:19:05.960 --> 01:19:08.800 by the Japanese. This kid was like a finance supporter 1618 01:19:09.039 --> 01:19:12.000 for for Nicky Asia and he's just just interested in 1619 01:19:12.079 --> 01:19:14.000 this stuff. And I said, oh, my friend, you've got 1620 01:19:14.079 --> 01:19:17.000 a story at Grands here the Chinese are testing against 1621 01:19:17.039 --> 01:19:20.279 the specifically Japanese target at their impact ranges, so you 1622 01:19:20.319 --> 01:19:22.079 can see some interesting things checking those out. 1623 01:19:23.319 --> 01:19:27.600 I know that you you know, your specialty is sort 1624 01:19:27.640 --> 01:19:29.199 of the military side of it. 1625 01:19:29.319 --> 01:19:31.039 So I don't want to, you know, kind of put 1626 01:19:31.079 --> 01:19:34.039 you on the spot talking about economics or anything like that. 1627 01:19:34.239 --> 01:19:38.319 But like some of the arguments we've heard against China 1628 01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:41.760 utilizing some sort of forst strike or actually wanting to 1629 01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:46.680 engage in near pure warfare, is there economic investment and 1630 01:19:46.760 --> 01:19:51.359 reliance on the United States things like that. To the 1631 01:19:51.399 --> 01:19:53.560 best of your ability or however you're comfortable, can you 1632 01:19:53.720 --> 01:19:57.079 speak to what might be right wrong about that or 1633 01:19:57.159 --> 01:20:01.920 what you're seeing in sort of China's movement towards a 1634 01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:06.520 more military style you approach the United States. 1635 01:20:07.840 --> 01:20:10.760 Well, so I would say that, I mean, I agree 1636 01:20:10.960 --> 01:20:13.880 that I think if trying to get what it wanted 1637 01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:16.239 and out fighting a war with the United States, they 1638 01:20:16.279 --> 01:20:18.560 would want to do so for sure, I mean, I 1639 01:20:19.039 --> 01:20:21.560 agree with this that ideally would be what they would 1640 01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:24.960 want to do to accomplish their goals, you know, reunification 1641 01:20:25.039 --> 01:20:27.800 with Taiwan or not that, not that Taiwan has ever 1642 01:20:27.920 --> 01:20:29.680 been part of the people Republic of China. 1643 01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:31.439 Mind you they wouldn't say that, but. 1644 01:20:33.119 --> 01:20:36.359 Whether it's so, whether it's seizing Taiwan or whatever, they 1645 01:20:36.359 --> 01:20:38.520 would they would prefer to do that without finding the 1646 01:20:38.600 --> 01:20:41.279 United States. I think that, you know, one of the 1647 01:20:41.359 --> 01:20:45.039 things they may hope by building up this really oodent 1648 01:20:45.319 --> 01:20:50.520 and the goal to being intimidating force, is that I 1649 01:20:50.600 --> 01:20:52.800 think they would probably hope that the US would choose 1650 01:20:52.880 --> 01:20:55.479 not to get involved and we would decide to costs 1651 01:20:55.520 --> 01:20:56.079 for too high. 1652 01:20:58.039 --> 01:20:59.920 But I wouldn't take too much. 1653 01:21:02.600 --> 01:21:06.000 Comfort from the idea that there could be an economic 1654 01:21:06.079 --> 01:21:07.680 cost for them for a couple of reasons. 1655 01:21:08.479 --> 01:21:10.199 One is that she didn't paying. 1656 01:21:10.239 --> 01:21:13.720 As a leader, has made crystal clear that he's willing 1657 01:21:13.800 --> 01:21:18.159 to take economic hits or China on China's behalf for 1658 01:21:18.279 --> 01:21:21.119 the security interests of the CCP of the Chinese Communist Party. 1659 01:21:21.199 --> 01:21:23.680 You have seen him cut down Chinese billionaires to size. 1660 01:21:24.239 --> 01:21:27.600 He refuses. They're apparently willing to just watch TikTok and 1661 01:21:27.680 --> 01:21:29.840 go just disappear rather than sell it. 1662 01:21:31.520 --> 01:21:33.479 There's a number of different signals. 1663 01:21:33.159 --> 01:21:35.399 That we can see from now that he's not he's 1664 01:21:35.479 --> 01:21:37.520 not he is a Marxist. He really is, like he's 1665 01:21:37.560 --> 01:21:41.720 a believer, and if you give him the choice of well, 1666 01:21:42.560 --> 01:21:46.159 I can unify with Taiwan actually if it works, and 1667 01:21:46.319 --> 01:21:48.399 maybe I'd take a ten percent economic hit that I 1668 01:21:48.439 --> 01:21:50.119 could gain back in a few years. He's going to 1669 01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:52.119 take that hit. He doesn't care if it costs funds 1670 01:21:52.159 --> 01:21:54.119 of dollars. It's he doesn't look at things. I think 1671 01:21:54.159 --> 01:21:56.319 the same way as democratic leaders do. You have to 1672 01:21:56.359 --> 01:21:59.279 remember also he's an authoritarian leader. He doesn't he doesn't 1673 01:21:59.319 --> 01:22:00.880 have to pay attention and what does people want? 1674 01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:05.279 To some degree likewise, we've seen the kind of seen 1675 01:22:05.319 --> 01:22:05.760 this before. 1676 01:22:05.840 --> 01:22:09.119 There were people in nineteen fourteen who wrote quite confidently 1677 01:22:09.520 --> 01:22:12.119 that there was no possibility that the English and the 1678 01:22:12.279 --> 01:22:15.920 Germans would go to war because the markets are too intertwined, right, 1679 01:22:16.319 --> 01:22:18.920 everybody will lose too much money. And what happened anyways, 1680 01:22:18.920 --> 01:22:22.439 I mean, so the Kaiser again I'm authoritary leader with 1681 01:22:22.560 --> 01:22:27.199 a rising militaristic power, makes the decision to get involved 1682 01:22:27.239 --> 01:22:28.920 in a war that's going to cost us people. But 1683 01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:32.520 I mean he decided to do it anyway. So I 1684 01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:35.000 do agree that there are lots of good reasons for 1685 01:22:36.520 --> 01:22:40.039 them not to embark on military aggression. But they're putting 1686 01:22:40.359 --> 01:22:44.439 pretty tremendous resources into building the capabilities the kind of 1687 01:22:44.520 --> 01:22:46.279 capabilities you would build to be able to do it. 1688 01:22:47.640 --> 01:22:50.079 And then you know, we talked a little bit before 1689 01:22:50.119 --> 01:22:52.560 the show about the Belton Road project and things like that. 1690 01:22:52.680 --> 01:22:55.479 Can you speak to that and how that aids their 1691 01:22:56.039 --> 01:22:58.039 economic military expansion. 1692 01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:02.239 So the thing you have to remember about China is that. 1693 01:23:05.039 --> 01:23:09.039 The key underpinning, one of the key underpinnings for China's 1694 01:23:09.680 --> 01:23:12.600 growth in military capabilities is what they call military simil 1695 01:23:12.680 --> 01:23:15.800 fusion so MCS. So this is their idea that they're 1696 01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:20.159 gonna they're going to leverage their civilian, industrial and scientific 1697 01:23:21.039 --> 01:23:28.000 UH and infrastructure investments to also support military purposes. 1698 01:23:28.640 --> 01:23:31.119 And were in the roads part of that. 1699 01:23:31.520 --> 01:23:35.399 So people will say, for example, oh, look, the US 1700 01:23:35.560 --> 01:23:39.000 has eight hundred bases around the world, which, by the way, 1701 01:23:39.079 --> 01:23:42.039 that number is complete nonsense. So if you just go 1702 01:23:42.560 --> 01:23:44.960 look on Twitter, look for me and bases and you'll 1703 01:23:44.960 --> 01:23:49.079 see there that number the guy who did the study 1704 01:23:49.199 --> 01:23:52.279 like counted like so for example, there was a dog 1705 01:23:52.399 --> 01:23:56.279 cemetery that was kind of as a base. You actually 1706 01:23:56.359 --> 01:23:58.640 go into the screensheet and think, I used to create 1707 01:23:58.720 --> 01:24:03.119 that list like naval based blobbing like twelve bases. It's 1708 01:24:03.199 --> 01:24:07.199 just completely ridiculous. Three hours lenders and basins eight hundred 1709 01:24:07.239 --> 01:24:10.119 and even close. So anyways, they don't have that many 1710 01:24:10.199 --> 01:24:11.920 official overseas military bases. 1711 01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:14.800 They have one in Jibouty, they just built one into 1712 01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:16.399 the Cambodians and Reincambodia. 1713 01:24:16.680 --> 01:24:19.560 What they do have is probably dozens of these built 1714 01:24:19.600 --> 01:24:22.479 and road facilities where they built a port, they built 1715 01:24:22.520 --> 01:24:25.680 an airfield, they built a highway, and so you've got 1716 01:24:25.720 --> 01:24:28.720 all these key facilities all around the world that are 1717 01:24:28.760 --> 01:24:33.119 built by Chinese companies two Chinese standards. Who knows what 1718 01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:35.680 else they baked into the to these facilities that are 1719 01:24:35.720 --> 01:24:39.119 maybe monitoring surveillance and maybe they can shut trains down 1720 01:24:39.159 --> 01:24:41.079 if they want to, maybe they can see what we're doing. 1721 01:24:42.119 --> 01:24:46.720 So they are extensibly civilian, but they're they're built by 1722 01:24:46.800 --> 01:24:49.600 Chinese companies. Which you have to remember is that in particular, 1723 01:24:49.800 --> 01:24:53.359 Chinese state owned enterprises are not normal companies. They are 1724 01:24:53.560 --> 01:24:56.319 arms in the CCP. And one way you've. 1725 01:24:56.399 --> 01:25:01.880 See this that I always find interesting, the bigger ones 1726 01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:06.520 also have an actual you know, PRC representative Communist Party representative, 1727 01:25:06.680 --> 01:25:13.680 like in the corporationsone's. 1728 01:25:10.439 --> 01:25:13.399 Gonna explain to seeing there are there was many times 1729 01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:17.319 I filled different Chinese state ow and enterprises where if 1730 01:25:17.359 --> 01:25:19.279 you go look at the English language version of the 1731 01:25:19.399 --> 01:25:23.640 company website and this is like not a communication construction company, 1732 01:25:23.640 --> 01:25:25.880 it's the construct company that's going to contract all over 1733 01:25:25.920 --> 01:25:27.720 the world. They also are the guys that built the 1734 01:25:27.760 --> 01:25:30.720 South China Sea Islands. You've got a costco shipping which 1735 01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:34.520 has you know shipping. There are are ports all the time. 1736 01:25:35.359 --> 01:25:36.920 You see these companies and you look at the English 1737 01:25:37.000 --> 01:25:39.239 language version on the website, it looks totally normal. It's 1738 01:25:39.640 --> 01:25:43.239 able built of the staliation plans in Kosovo. We you know, 1739 01:25:43.439 --> 01:25:47.680 we're working on getting helping our customers. Here's our here's 1740 01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:51.000 our fair men, vice chairman YadA YadA ad. It all 1741 01:25:51.000 --> 01:25:53.520 looks very normal. Then if you go look at the 1742 01:25:53.640 --> 01:25:57.880 Chinese Chinese language version of the website and just machine translated, 1743 01:25:58.920 --> 01:25:59.319 there will be. 1744 01:25:59.319 --> 01:26:02.399 An entire sections that aren't an named is like the. 1745 01:26:02.520 --> 01:26:05.600 Party building section where it talks about the company news 1746 01:26:05.720 --> 01:26:09.279 now is shooting and paining thought and party members did this, 1747 01:26:09.439 --> 01:26:12.079 and party members did that. And the org chart they 1748 01:26:12.199 --> 01:26:16.359 used to say chairman and vice chairman now shows party secretary, 1749 01:26:16.520 --> 01:26:20.600 deputy party secretary. And it's like crystal clear that all 1750 01:26:20.640 --> 01:26:24.119 of this company leadership is dual added as CCP members 1751 01:26:25.000 --> 01:26:27.600 that the company is at they are an arm of 1752 01:26:27.640 --> 01:26:30.520 the CCP, that they are committed, like their their leadership 1753 01:26:30.560 --> 01:26:32.520 goes and no kidding, like goes to party meetings and 1754 01:26:32.560 --> 01:26:35.600 studies shooting pain thought and I mean they are there. 1755 01:26:35.800 --> 01:26:37.800 They are arms of the CCP. And for many of 1756 01:26:37.840 --> 01:26:40.079 these stay on enterprise. So now it's not true of 1757 01:26:40.079 --> 01:26:42.800 all Chinese companies, like some are just kind of private companies, 1758 01:26:42.840 --> 01:26:44.760 but many of the ones we care about that are 1759 01:26:44.800 --> 01:26:50.920 doing infrastructure, shipping. And as for they absolutely are dual 1760 01:26:50.960 --> 01:26:52.439 purpose companies in many cases. 1761 01:26:52.880 --> 01:26:56.039 And Thomas that to add to that, because this is 1762 01:26:56.079 --> 01:26:59.880 something I think that it can be alarmist or at 1763 01:27:00.079 --> 01:27:00.760 toro realist. 1764 01:27:00.920 --> 01:27:02.560 And I don't know what the answer is. 1765 01:27:03.159 --> 01:27:08.039 But Chinese company control of some of our ports, Chinese 1766 01:27:08.119 --> 01:27:11.880 companies buying up, you know, land around military bases, are 1767 01:27:11.960 --> 01:27:17.000 those innocuous? Are those just people participating in capitalism or 1768 01:27:17.039 --> 01:27:18.720 are those things that we should be worried about? 1769 01:27:21.840 --> 01:27:24.920 I'd say at both, I mean so there, I'm not 1770 01:27:25.199 --> 01:27:28.199 I would never say like that every investment, every Chinese 1771 01:27:28.239 --> 01:27:32.199 investment in the United States is is some threttning thing. 1772 01:27:32.319 --> 01:27:32.560 It's not. 1773 01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:35.720 I mean, there, let's face it, I mean, we we 1774 01:27:35.960 --> 01:27:38.279 run a huge trade deficit with them. They get they 1775 01:27:38.359 --> 01:27:41.279 have a lot of dollars in their hands, more. 1776 01:27:41.159 --> 01:27:42.960 Than the flow the flows the other way. 1777 01:27:43.000 --> 01:27:45.159 So those dollars have to come back, and so they 1778 01:27:45.239 --> 01:27:47.119 use them to buy names over here, whether it's cheggery, 1779 01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:50.720 bills or property or whatever. And I'm sure in many 1780 01:27:50.800 --> 01:27:55.840 cases it may be innocent, but I think there's surely 1781 01:27:55.880 --> 01:27:57.800 been plenty of cases where it doesn't seem, like I said, 1782 01:27:57.840 --> 01:27:59.439 in a set like why did this happen? To buy 1783 01:27:59.520 --> 01:28:02.760 property these these locations, you know, they can can get 1784 01:28:02.840 --> 01:28:03.760 quite fishy. 1785 01:28:06.119 --> 01:28:08.039 And for borts, I really do. 1786 01:28:08.319 --> 01:28:11.279 I do think that there is a strategic plan on 1787 01:28:11.399 --> 01:28:14.359 the part of China to dominate the port sector, to 1788 01:28:14.479 --> 01:28:19.119 dominate shipbuilding. It's I mean, it's good for economically, but 1789 01:28:19.199 --> 01:28:21.680 I think it's also it helps them in the long 1790 01:28:21.800 --> 01:28:25.000 run on a very much a you know, we're going. 1791 01:28:24.960 --> 01:28:27.840 To run the world someday. I mean, people have to understand, like. 1792 01:28:29.479 --> 01:28:32.520 China is, by every measure but one, they are the 1793 01:28:32.720 --> 01:28:36.560 premier maritime power in the history of humanity. They are 1794 01:28:36.840 --> 01:28:40.560 by far the largest shipbuilders, They have the largest merchant marine, 1795 01:28:40.720 --> 01:28:44.319 they have by far the world's largest fishing fleet by 1796 01:28:44.439 --> 01:28:47.279 far the world's orangest coast guard. Now they now have 1797 01:28:47.399 --> 01:28:49.479 a navy that has the most ships in the world, 1798 01:28:49.600 --> 01:28:52.960 that has warships. In the US Navy, there's only one measure, 1799 01:28:53.039 --> 01:28:55.359 and that is sheer naval tonnage, and that's because the 1800 01:28:55.439 --> 01:28:58.199 average US Navy ship is bigger than the average Chinese 1801 01:28:58.239 --> 01:28:58.720 Navy ship. 1802 01:28:59.079 --> 01:29:00.279 But they are catching up there. 1803 01:29:00.760 --> 01:29:04.840 So I've done the mass and over the last decade 1804 01:29:05.199 --> 01:29:08.159 on a tonnage basis, China has also helped the US Navy. 1805 01:29:08.199 --> 01:29:11.119 You buy it off fifty so they're they're catching out 1806 01:29:11.159 --> 01:29:11.520 there soon. 1807 01:29:11.880 --> 01:29:12.319 So they're the. 1808 01:29:12.359 --> 01:29:15.279 World's largest trading nation. They have the most ships. We 1809 01:29:15.319 --> 01:29:17.720 should expect they'd have all most of the ports too. 1810 01:29:17.800 --> 01:29:19.359 It's just it's all connected. 1811 01:29:21.880 --> 01:29:25.359 One of the things that you mentioned before we started 1812 01:29:25.359 --> 01:29:27.359 the interview is that, you know, kind of the topic 1813 01:29:27.520 --> 01:29:30.000 or a topic you're focused on, is, you know, the 1814 01:29:30.079 --> 01:29:32.800 things we've been talking about, but leading into how do 1815 01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:35.800 we avoid going to war with China? And so I'd 1816 01:29:35.840 --> 01:29:38.000 like to kind of specifically put our finger on that 1817 01:29:38.159 --> 01:29:42.119 topic and ask, you know, how do we deter war 1818 01:29:42.239 --> 01:29:45.239 with China. I'd like to avoid World War three. I'm 1819 01:29:45.279 --> 01:29:48.159 sure many other people would too, And how do you 1820 01:29:48.199 --> 01:29:50.039 think we're doing with that? Like what grade would you 1821 01:29:50.119 --> 01:29:53.119 give us so far as the United States trying to 1822 01:29:53.159 --> 01:29:53.760 accomplish that? 1823 01:29:55.560 --> 01:30:00.159 So yeah, so So what I had mentioned earlier was like, 1824 01:30:00.800 --> 01:30:03.520 since I retired from the Navy, it's not like my 1825 01:30:03.680 --> 01:30:05.920 number one goal is to do whatever I can to 1826 01:30:06.079 --> 01:30:08.840 help avoid help us to avoid a war with giant 1827 01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:13.439 because I think it would be, you know, one of 1828 01:30:13.479 --> 01:30:16.439 the greatest disaster in the history of humanity. Probably maybe 1829 01:30:17.439 --> 01:30:20.039 the Second World War might still be. Who knows, it'll 1830 01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:24.159 be close super bad. So different people have a lot 1831 01:30:24.199 --> 01:30:27.039 of different ways they that they might want to go 1832 01:30:27.119 --> 01:30:29.960 about that. There are some folks they may call themselves 1833 01:30:29.960 --> 01:30:34.560 the traders sometimes who would choose to maybe make accommodations 1834 01:30:34.600 --> 01:30:35.119 with giants. 1835 01:30:35.119 --> 01:30:37.000 You know, we'll let you have a sphere of influence. 1836 01:30:37.439 --> 01:30:44.760 Panda huggers your words, What did you say, Panda Huggers. 1837 01:30:46.680 --> 01:30:50.279 I mean, I'm gonna take a face by that the 1838 01:30:50.479 --> 01:30:55.199 Americans that represent recommend those kinds of measures, or that 1839 01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:58.039 they're honest people that they will best. 1840 01:31:00.159 --> 01:31:00.600 With the method. 1841 01:31:00.680 --> 01:31:03.199 I don't think that's the way that I would prefer 1842 01:31:03.359 --> 01:31:05.720 not to do that, in part because you don't know 1843 01:31:05.720 --> 01:31:08.920 where they're going to stop. I mean, you've got to understand. 1844 01:31:09.039 --> 01:31:11.119 And I don't mean like China's going to invade the 1845 01:31:11.199 --> 01:31:13.279 United States. I'm not saying anything like that. I'm not 1846 01:31:13.359 --> 01:31:15.800 worried about invade in the United States but the Chinese. 1847 01:31:16.119 --> 01:31:19.119 But what I will say is that a world that's 1848 01:31:19.159 --> 01:31:22.560 the way that we want it, where people speak out 1849 01:31:22.680 --> 01:31:25.359 about human rights, that people speak out about democracy, that 1850 01:31:25.520 --> 01:31:27.239 is not a world that's safe for the CCP. 1851 01:31:28.359 --> 01:31:29.119 They don't want. 1852 01:31:29.039 --> 01:31:32.399 Anyone in any other country to tell them. It's to 1853 01:31:32.479 --> 01:31:34.279 tell them that it's wrong for them to not let 1854 01:31:34.319 --> 01:31:36.560 their people vote, to tell them that it's wrong to 1855 01:31:37.039 --> 01:31:38.000 suppress human rights. 1856 01:31:38.039 --> 01:31:40.039 And then that's not the world I want to live in. 1857 01:31:40.159 --> 01:31:43.079 Where we're not able to say those sorts of things. 1858 01:31:44.119 --> 01:31:45.800 We don't have to guess that that's how they would 1859 01:31:45.840 --> 01:31:47.680 be about it, because they already did it to Australia 1860 01:31:47.920 --> 01:31:52.159 a few years ago. They inflicted trade restrictions in Australia 1861 01:31:52.720 --> 01:31:54.359 because strength. 1862 01:31:54.039 --> 01:31:56.239 Think tanks were saying nasking things. They basically have a 1863 01:31:56.319 --> 01:31:58.359 list of demands that you need. 1864 01:31:58.439 --> 01:32:00.279 Your politicians need to get their mouth shut and their 1865 01:32:00.319 --> 01:32:02.359 think tanks to not speak up about this and that 1866 01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:05.960 stop talking about the leaguers. I mean, Australia would have 1867 01:32:06.039 --> 01:32:07.880 to not be a frequent ry wharf to be able 1868 01:32:07.920 --> 01:32:10.079 to make the Chinese happy. We should expect to see 1869 01:32:10.119 --> 01:32:12.680 that kind of thing continue at a greater scale. 1870 01:32:13.279 --> 01:32:14.600 So that's not a world that I want to I 1871 01:32:14.680 --> 01:32:15.159 want to live in. 1872 01:32:15.239 --> 01:32:17.319 So I don't think that's the answer to avoid wars, 1873 01:32:17.399 --> 01:32:19.359 to give them what they want, because we have to 1874 01:32:19.399 --> 01:32:23.359 also remember that if China really does gain naval superiority, 1875 01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:26.600 they will have the ability to coerce our allies. So 1876 01:32:26.640 --> 01:32:28.199 we've got to remember all of our allies in the 1877 01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:32.239 Western Pacific were all island nations. South Korea might as 1878 01:32:32.279 --> 01:32:34.840 well be. They've got ocean on three sides and Kim Jong. 1879 01:32:34.720 --> 01:32:38.319 Un on the north. They're all dependent upon maritime trade. 1880 01:32:38.359 --> 01:32:41.880 So if China has naval superiority and cut off that trade, 1881 01:32:42.359 --> 01:32:45.680 then their economies but the pleasure of the CCP, and that's. 1882 01:32:45.560 --> 01:32:46.680 Not a well they want to be a part of. 1883 01:32:48.199 --> 01:32:50.199 So how do I think we deter China. 1884 01:32:51.359 --> 01:32:54.279 I think we have to when I said in testimony 1885 01:32:55.159 --> 01:32:58.840 several times, is that we have to create uncertainty in 1886 01:32:58.920 --> 01:33:01.880 the minds and that these China's leaders that their military 1887 01:33:01.920 --> 01:33:02.800 action will succeed. 1888 01:33:03.439 --> 01:33:04.960 That's the only way to insure them. 1889 01:33:05.479 --> 01:33:08.800 You can't just inflict costs, like if you if you say, hey, 1890 01:33:08.840 --> 01:33:13.079 we're gonna inflict costs and create off rames, so we're 1891 01:33:13.119 --> 01:33:20.439 gonna yeah, then take those costs if you if you 1892 01:33:20.600 --> 01:33:24.840 hang a price tag on Taiwan, you will probably pay it. Yeah, 1893 01:33:25.239 --> 01:33:27.359 if he thinks it's it's gonna cost a trillion dollars 1894 01:33:27.399 --> 01:33:30.319 with two trillion dollars or whatever, Hey, I don't think 1895 01:33:30.359 --> 01:33:32.239 he would. If he knew that we were gonna stand aside, 1896 01:33:32.319 --> 01:33:35.640 I think he would pay that price tag. So you 1897 01:33:35.720 --> 01:33:37.359 can't just make it cost if you have to make 1898 01:33:37.399 --> 01:33:39.880 them think we're not sure this is gonna work, that 1899 01:33:40.239 --> 01:33:41.000 this may not work. 1900 01:33:41.439 --> 01:33:42.159 So how do we do that? 1901 01:33:43.399 --> 01:33:44.600 I think there's a lot of things you could do. 1902 01:33:44.640 --> 01:33:48.880 I mean the good news for US is then invading 1903 01:33:48.960 --> 01:33:51.760 Taiwan would be really hard. I mean, if the these 1904 01:33:51.840 --> 01:33:55.199 assaults are very challenging, you have to have complete air 1905 01:33:55.359 --> 01:33:57.760 enable superior ority to do it. You can't have anybody 1906 01:33:57.800 --> 01:33:59.920 shooting at sure for these assault ships on their way in, 1907 01:34:00.039 --> 01:34:02.880 and you can't have fighters coming in, so they have 1908 01:34:03.000 --> 01:34:04.760 to have a lead securior ARDEA. 1909 01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:06.840 To do it. So it's high bar to do that. 1910 01:34:07.000 --> 01:34:11.000 So you know, I think it takes lots of survivable 1911 01:34:11.520 --> 01:34:16.119 anti ship weapons, So inner ship cruise, missiles, minds and 1912 01:34:16.239 --> 01:34:18.359 those things have to be survivable on a day to 1913 01:34:18.439 --> 01:34:23.000 day basis, because kinda is obsessed with structing by surprise, 1914 01:34:23.119 --> 01:34:25.239 and it's not talking just here about what I saw 1915 01:34:25.319 --> 01:34:28.399 on Google Earth. If you read Chinese doctrine, go read 1916 01:34:28.439 --> 01:34:31.199 the two thousand and six Sciences of Campaigns and just 1917 01:34:31.279 --> 01:34:36.119 go control f and search for things like surprise suddenness. 1918 01:34:36.399 --> 01:34:39.680 They mentioned it dozens of times and the documents. They 1919 01:34:39.680 --> 01:34:42.840 are obsessed with structing by surprise. So if all your 1920 01:34:43.560 --> 01:34:46.760 missile brought for all the parking lot somewhere, guess what, 1921 01:34:46.920 --> 01:34:48.840 you're probably not going to get to use them fifteen 1922 01:34:48.840 --> 01:34:51.920 minutes into the war. If you have if you're counting 1923 01:34:51.960 --> 01:34:55.720 on minefields, if you haven't already laid those minefields, you're 1924 01:34:55.800 --> 01:34:57.880 never going to get to lay them. You know, like 1925 01:34:58.199 --> 01:35:01.119 people say, well, say what was my that Taiwan is straight? Well, 1926 01:35:02.159 --> 01:35:05.239 so like Taiwan has bought mind Lane ships. They look cool, 1927 01:35:05.520 --> 01:35:08.760 they go fast, whatever. But if China has decided they're 1928 01:35:08.760 --> 01:35:10.640 going to invade Taiwan, they're not going to watch the 1929 01:35:10.680 --> 01:35:13.920 Taiwanese lay the minefield. That's going to stop them. So 1930 01:35:14.199 --> 01:35:16.000 all of this stuff has to happen at peace time. 1931 01:35:16.680 --> 01:35:19.760 Our air bases, our aircraft to be dispersed on a 1932 01:35:19.920 --> 01:35:22.319 day to day basis, or they will be destroyed on 1933 01:35:22.399 --> 01:35:25.399 the ram. China has more than enough missiles to do 1934 01:35:25.520 --> 01:35:27.960 it hardly, because we have not barned our air bases 1935 01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:31.119 than they have and just released the whole report a 1936 01:35:31.159 --> 01:35:33.520 couple of months ago about air based hardening. They built 1937 01:35:33.640 --> 01:35:37.079 hundreds of new partner shelters at their air bases. We 1938 01:35:37.199 --> 01:35:39.159 built twenty two in the whole region, and most of 1939 01:35:39.159 --> 01:35:39.960 them are out of range. 1940 01:35:41.720 --> 01:35:44.199 I did some enough. China has. 1941 01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:49.479 More enough concrete, building hardened shelters, adding grand aria at 1942 01:35:49.520 --> 01:35:52.279 the air bases, adding runways that you could you could 1943 01:35:52.319 --> 01:35:55.199 pave a four lane interstate highway from Washington, d C. 1944 01:35:55.319 --> 01:35:58.560 To Chicago as over the last ten years that same 1945 01:35:58.600 --> 01:35:59.199 webs they've done. 1946 01:35:59.279 --> 01:36:01.680 So. So those are the kinds of things we need 1947 01:36:01.800 --> 01:36:04.359 to do to be ready to prevent this conflict from 1948 01:36:04.399 --> 01:36:04.920 breaking out. 1949 01:36:06.239 --> 01:36:08.840 The So in addition to just the. 1950 01:36:10.560 --> 01:36:14.520 Hard aspects of a warfare, when you look at the 1951 01:36:14.600 --> 01:36:19.079 soft at the propaganda at China, is I think really 1952 01:36:19.199 --> 01:36:23.199 successful sort of propaganda efforts within the United States and whatnot, 1953 01:36:23.319 --> 01:36:26.079 whether it's through social media or whatever, and a lot 1954 01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:29.600 of people who are lining up in support of China 1955 01:36:29.680 --> 01:36:31.880 and support of fifteen minutes cities and things like that. 1956 01:36:32.399 --> 01:36:36.279 Are there ways that we can combat that without without 1957 01:36:37.239 --> 01:36:39.720 giving up who we are, without giving up the First Amendment, 1958 01:36:39.800 --> 01:36:44.640 without you know, becoming country that we don't want to be. 1959 01:36:46.800 --> 01:36:48.800 Well, I mean you can start, well, for example, you 1960 01:36:48.840 --> 01:36:51.359 can start with the enforcement of TikTok Dan, so not 1961 01:36:52.159 --> 01:36:55.760 having a Chinese Chinese company with directions from Beijing and 1962 01:36:55.840 --> 01:36:59.680 controlling the algorithm that decides what people are going to 1963 01:36:59.720 --> 01:37:01.199 see and their social media feed. 1964 01:37:01.119 --> 01:37:02.680 That because to me, that's what this is all about. 1965 01:37:02.800 --> 01:37:05.720 Like, I don't care about China getting I mean, it's bad, 1966 01:37:05.800 --> 01:37:09.680 but I'm not worried about China getting personal information about 1967 01:37:09.680 --> 01:37:12.600 Americans from TikTok Like they don't they don't really care 1968 01:37:12.640 --> 01:37:15.600 about And I'm not that worried about them knowing your 1969 01:37:15.920 --> 01:37:16.520 you know, where. 1970 01:37:16.359 --> 01:37:17.199 You live or whatever. 1971 01:37:17.520 --> 01:37:19.920 What I care about is what is if China is 1972 01:37:19.920 --> 01:37:21.640 the one deciding what it is that you're going to 1973 01:37:21.720 --> 01:37:24.000 see and what you know. So so if you have 1974 01:37:24.039 --> 01:37:27.399 a crisis breakout that China, you know, China being the 1975 01:37:27.439 --> 01:37:31.039 one to decide what messaging entire the American public is getting. 1976 01:37:31.119 --> 01:37:33.760 That is the last thing we want to have happening. 1977 01:37:33.800 --> 01:37:37.039 And that's why it TikTok cannot be controlled from China. 1978 01:37:37.159 --> 01:37:39.600 We cannot let that happen like one of the major 1979 01:37:39.680 --> 01:37:42.520 sources of information for our people. That's step one. So 1980 01:37:42.640 --> 01:37:46.199 let's let's enforce the law that was already passed. That's 1981 01:37:46.239 --> 01:37:49.600 already Oh, by the way, these folks haven't notice. I 1982 01:37:49.680 --> 01:37:53.279 did the math yesterday. The seventy five day extension that 1983 01:37:53.439 --> 01:37:55.479 President Trump gave them run down on Saturday. 1984 01:37:56.439 --> 01:37:57.960 So we'll see what happens with that point. 1985 01:37:59.279 --> 01:38:01.800 So that's that's one thing we can do. We need 1986 01:38:01.800 --> 01:38:04.720 to to force you know, foreign agent registration requirements. You 1987 01:38:04.800 --> 01:38:06.319 know that some of that was starting to happen. 1988 01:38:07.159 --> 01:38:08.920 People shouting to get in trouble for that. That's good. 1989 01:38:11.680 --> 01:38:13.640 We can't we can't shut down forwarders coming. 1990 01:38:13.680 --> 01:38:15.359 There a thing I don't that's not I don't think 1991 01:38:15.399 --> 01:38:17.159 that's a good idea for a future for you know, 1992 01:38:17.159 --> 01:38:19.640 almost so much of our best innovators and the people 1993 01:38:19.680 --> 01:38:21.760 to drive the industry that allow it gives us the 1994 01:38:21.800 --> 01:38:24.399 income we need to buy you know, to fund our 1995 01:38:24.439 --> 01:38:25.720 defense a lot of these immigrants. 1996 01:38:25.760 --> 01:38:27.159 So I don't want to someone to do that. But 1997 01:38:27.960 --> 01:38:30.000 it is a real challenge. And but we faced the 1998 01:38:30.079 --> 01:38:30.720 challenge for form right. 1999 01:38:30.760 --> 01:38:32.239 I mean during the Cold War, we had a we 2000 01:38:32.279 --> 01:38:35.119 had an open society relatively compared to the Soviets, and 2001 01:38:35.279 --> 01:38:36.079 we sold one. 2002 01:38:36.399 --> 01:38:38.399 Right, So it is it is possible. 2003 01:38:39.359 --> 01:38:41.920 What do you how do you feel about like, for instance, 2004 01:38:42.279 --> 01:38:48.479 you know American you know, high power American lawyers representing 2005 01:38:48.640 --> 01:38:52.199 like DGI drones against the government and. 2006 01:38:52.239 --> 01:38:52.640 Things like that. 2007 01:38:52.840 --> 01:38:55.319 Is that part of the American process? Is this something 2008 01:38:55.359 --> 01:38:57.920 that needs to be looked at more as a national 2009 01:38:58.000 --> 01:38:58.840 security issue? 2010 01:39:00.880 --> 01:39:03.560 I never tell me if the playership is everything, I mean, 2011 01:39:03.600 --> 01:39:05.399 every every entity. 2012 01:39:05.239 --> 01:39:07.840 In the United States, you know, that's the way it's 2013 01:39:07.840 --> 01:39:08.720 system is supposed to work. 2014 01:39:08.760 --> 01:39:11.399 And no matter what you did or that, you deserve 2015 01:39:11.479 --> 01:39:12.159 the right to a lawyer. 2016 01:39:12.159 --> 01:39:15.039 I mean ever since John since John Adams, you know, 2017 01:39:15.239 --> 01:39:18.720 defended the guys, the three the British soldiers that that 2018 01:39:19.039 --> 01:39:22.920 in the Boston massacre. That's a key part of who 2019 01:39:23.000 --> 01:39:26.680 we are as Americans. And so I don't and there's Manussary. 2020 01:39:26.680 --> 01:39:27.880 I want to go out to dinner with the guys 2021 01:39:27.920 --> 01:39:29.800 that do that right, and I think they have they 2022 01:39:29.840 --> 01:39:32.520 have a legal right to pay people to defend them 2023 01:39:32.560 --> 01:39:37.439 in court. Uh, you know, but but I think there 2024 01:39:37.600 --> 01:39:40.840 there's can't and should be limits on and what you know, 2025 01:39:41.399 --> 01:39:44.399 I know there are I'm trying to get anyone here 2026 01:39:44.439 --> 01:39:47.960 with legal legal stuff. You know, there could obviously should 2027 01:39:48.000 --> 01:39:50.359 be some limits on foreign money being used to conduct 2028 01:39:50.399 --> 01:39:52.880 influence operations in the United States. I'll just I'll believe it. 2029 01:39:53.039 --> 01:39:53.800 That fair enough. 2030 01:39:55.720 --> 01:39:58.479 But Thomas, thank you very much for this interview and 2031 01:39:58.880 --> 01:40:02.760 sharing your your expertise with us. Is there anything that 2032 01:40:02.920 --> 01:40:05.039 I didn't ask? Do we and do we have questions 2033 01:40:05.119 --> 01:40:09.560 for Thomas from Marcello? 2034 01:40:12.239 --> 01:40:14.560 Are there any differences in the data day and culture 2035 01:40:14.600 --> 01:40:16.560 from attack versus missile subs? 2036 01:40:18.159 --> 01:40:18.399 Yeah? 2037 01:40:19.319 --> 01:40:22.199 Uh yeah, I mean that's it's a very different mission. 2038 01:40:22.560 --> 01:40:25.279 I mean, so you know, as posting muscle subs had 2039 01:40:25.319 --> 01:40:28.000 to say fie with pride, right, So your your your 2040 01:40:28.079 --> 01:40:31.039 job is to remain undetected, to be so that you're 2041 01:40:31.239 --> 01:40:35.439 available and survivable to be able to launch missiles. So 2042 01:40:35.600 --> 01:40:38.479 that's a bit different than attack submarines, which are you know, 2043 01:40:38.680 --> 01:40:43.479 forward leaning, forward deployed in many cases multipurpose and sometimes 2044 01:40:43.560 --> 01:40:45.159 you might get detected doing it. Like if you start 2045 01:40:45.199 --> 01:40:47.039 sinking shifts, you're probably getting there's a good chance you 2046 01:40:47.079 --> 01:40:49.479 may be detected doing it. So it's a little different 2047 01:40:49.479 --> 01:40:52.199 mission set. I think attack submarines are kind of a 2048 01:40:52.279 --> 01:40:55.359 little more a little more swash buckling so to speak, 2049 01:40:56.359 --> 01:40:59.439 you know, pointy end of the stick type platforms. However, 2050 01:41:00.760 --> 01:41:03.319 doesn't mean that being an SSPN stator is easy. It's 2051 01:41:03.560 --> 01:41:07.359 you know, obviously Nickla weapons are a very zero definct. 2052 01:41:07.760 --> 01:41:10.279 Has to be one hundred percent right every time I 2053 01:41:10.359 --> 01:41:15.039 have the mission, so it's certainly enormously important. One key 2054 01:41:15.119 --> 01:41:18.680 difference between the platforms is that missile boats have two crews, 2055 01:41:19.319 --> 01:41:21.079 so you have a blue crew and a golf crew. 2056 01:41:22.199 --> 01:41:24.079 That allows the shift to be at sea more of 2057 01:41:24.159 --> 01:41:24.479 the time. 2058 01:41:24.640 --> 01:41:26.960 So basically come in and swap out the cruise, do 2059 01:41:27.119 --> 01:41:28.920 some mainta men, swap out the cruise, and so one 2060 01:41:28.960 --> 01:41:30.760 crew gets the wave goodbye to the boat. It goes 2061 01:41:30.800 --> 01:41:32.920 out to sea with the other crew on board. That's 2062 01:41:32.960 --> 01:41:35.319 a big quality of life difference, I'll tell you that much. 2063 01:41:35.840 --> 01:41:37.680 You know, to be in that off group period when 2064 01:41:37.720 --> 01:41:39.479 you don't have a boat that you're worrying about all 2065 01:41:39.520 --> 01:41:43.399 the time, that is a that is a significant improvement, 2066 01:41:43.479 --> 01:41:46.079 which is why you know, when I finished my first 2067 01:41:46.319 --> 01:41:50.079 tour Division Offer tour, before we sign up to go 2068 01:41:50.239 --> 01:41:51.279 back to see I love it. 2069 01:41:51.359 --> 01:41:53.079 Then riding that was long to this is to ben 2070 01:41:53.119 --> 01:41:54.079 because I've been I've been a. 2071 01:41:54.119 --> 01:41:56.760 Road hard and put away wet on my first tour 2072 01:41:57.199 --> 01:41:59.640 and I wanted that in a little bit more relaxed lifestyle. 2073 01:42:00.039 --> 01:42:04.560 Yeah, I bet another one from m Corbon. What were 2074 01:42:04.640 --> 01:42:06.520 the best and worst meals on the boats? 2075 01:42:10.079 --> 01:42:10.479 Let's see. 2076 01:42:10.560 --> 01:42:11.960 So there's kind of a routine to get in. 2077 01:42:12.119 --> 01:42:16.479 So you have uh, Friday after Friday lunch of sliders, 2078 01:42:16.520 --> 01:42:20.159 you know, so burgers and fries and chocolate chip cookies 2079 01:42:20.399 --> 01:42:26.039 and ice cream. Saturday nights generally pizza night, and so 2080 01:42:26.479 --> 01:42:29.000 you'll sometimes like the beefs will make the pizza. 2081 01:42:29.239 --> 01:42:30.800 Sometimes the officers will make the pizza. 2082 01:42:30.960 --> 01:42:33.880 You know. Sometimes we'll have different folks make the pizzas 2083 01:42:34.840 --> 01:42:37.600 and it's generally quite good. Oftentimes Saturday night's poker night. 2084 01:42:38.039 --> 01:42:40.239 You know, some guys will play poker in the wardrobe. 2085 01:42:41.760 --> 01:42:44.800 Sundays sometimes surf and turf, so you know, grab legs 2086 01:42:44.880 --> 01:42:48.560 and and steak generally generally staked dinner. Sunday night and 2087 01:42:49.640 --> 01:42:52.000 then talk for Tuesday. You know, you got faidas and 2088 01:42:52.079 --> 01:42:54.399 then tacos and went on Tuesday. It's very easy to 2089 01:42:54.399 --> 01:42:55.760 get fat on the Submary. 2090 01:42:55.680 --> 01:42:56.960 Yeah, sure. 2091 01:42:57.479 --> 01:42:57.640 You know. 2092 01:42:57.920 --> 01:42:59.920 One of the things that we had always because I 2093 01:43:00.199 --> 01:43:02.359 was a hard hat diver when we dove on some 2094 01:43:02.479 --> 01:43:04.359 of the subs, and one of the things that they 2095 01:43:04.399 --> 01:43:08.319 had said is it like the chow on subs was 2096 01:43:08.520 --> 01:43:11.720 always top notch and they brought in the best like 2097 01:43:12.159 --> 01:43:15.520 cooks that the Navy had to offer, just because it 2098 01:43:15.640 --> 01:43:15.760 was a. 2099 01:43:15.800 --> 01:43:18.199 Major morale point. Would you agree or disagree with that? 2100 01:43:19.840 --> 01:43:22.359 I do think the food is my understanding, is quite 2101 01:43:22.359 --> 01:43:23.800 a bit better, but you think the reasons might be 2102 01:43:23.920 --> 01:43:24.600 a little different. 2103 01:43:25.279 --> 01:43:27.359 One is you just get more money per person. 2104 01:43:27.760 --> 01:43:31.039 So because you get a certain amount of food money 2105 01:43:31.359 --> 01:43:35.840 that the supply offser can spend on ingredients for a person, 2106 01:43:36.000 --> 01:43:38.479 and it's more on some breeds. So is this considered 2107 01:43:38.520 --> 01:43:41.880 be a hard chip duty so you're supply out there 2108 01:43:41.960 --> 01:43:44.000 is a little more money to spend on the ingredients. 2109 01:43:44.000 --> 01:43:44.560 That's part of it. 2110 01:43:45.079 --> 01:43:47.159 But I would say probably one of the biggest reasons 2111 01:43:47.239 --> 01:43:50.479 why the food is better is because it's all the 2112 01:43:50.600 --> 01:43:54.720 same food for everyone. So on a surface ship, for example, 2113 01:43:54.960 --> 01:43:57.640 right the crew could you know, you have like an 2114 01:43:57.680 --> 01:43:59.680 officer's mess, and you have a chiefe mess, and you 2115 01:43:59.760 --> 01:44:03.680 have a listed mess, and so it's different cooks looking 2116 01:44:03.800 --> 01:44:08.359 different food for the different groups. You know, submarine, it's 2117 01:44:08.439 --> 01:44:11.119 the same food. So if if the food sucks, the 2118 01:44:11.239 --> 01:44:12.439 captain eats the food. 2119 01:44:12.239 --> 01:44:14.920 That sucks and that forgets to hear about it. 2120 01:44:17.159 --> 01:44:19.159 Yeah, a sub there's no officers mess. 2121 01:44:20.159 --> 01:44:22.800 There is an officer's mess, but it's the same food. 2122 01:44:22.960 --> 01:44:26.359 So it's literally so it's the it's it's coming off 2123 01:44:26.359 --> 01:44:27.039 the same line. 2124 01:44:27.159 --> 01:44:29.880 It's all that's happening is that it goes into a 2125 01:44:29.920 --> 01:44:32.359 little soilber dish, you know, and you've got a good 2126 01:44:32.439 --> 01:44:34.239 guy that brings it into the wardroom and you pass 2127 01:44:34.319 --> 01:44:34.680 it around. 2128 01:44:34.880 --> 01:44:35.039 See. 2129 01:44:35.039 --> 01:44:38.399 The only difference is that's probably tolder is the officer 2130 01:44:38.520 --> 01:44:40.520 food as opposed to coming hot off the line. 2131 01:44:41.640 --> 01:44:43.439 But it is the same food. 2132 01:44:44.000 --> 01:44:46.119 So it's that what the E three is eating is 2133 01:44:46.239 --> 01:44:48.880 bad than what the captain's eating is bad too, and 2134 01:44:49.079 --> 01:44:51.079 then correct corrective action will be taken. 2135 01:44:52.039 --> 01:44:52.520 Fascinating. 2136 01:44:52.560 --> 01:44:54.000 That's probably the biggest deck, right thing. 2137 01:44:55.520 --> 01:44:58.920 We got a couple more from sim which is more 2138 01:44:58.960 --> 01:45:02.279 realistic quote unquot portrayal of life on a submarine Crimson 2139 01:45:02.359 --> 01:45:05.520 Tide or the Hunt for Red October or Boot. 2140 01:45:08.319 --> 01:45:12.279 So you know, they're kind of all a little different. 2141 01:45:13.039 --> 01:45:15.319 I mean, I don't think I mean, how far Otilbrain 2142 01:45:15.319 --> 01:45:18.479 doesn't really portray life that much on a submarine. Well, 2143 01:45:18.800 --> 01:45:20.960 you do have a John b who is an E 2144 01:45:21.560 --> 01:45:24.520 three I think mounting off to the chief of the boat, 2145 01:45:24.800 --> 01:45:32.319 which is probably not very accurate in that sense. Crimson Tide, 2146 01:45:32.359 --> 01:45:36.920 I mean, there was a lot of there's some realism 2147 01:45:36.960 --> 01:45:38.720 there some of them obviously, some of them wasn't not 2148 01:45:38.880 --> 01:45:44.000 all realistic, I mean, and things have changed. 2149 01:45:43.800 --> 01:45:46.279 In Stiff Yeah, Like like Denzel is jogging in the 2150 01:45:46.359 --> 01:45:48.439 submarine for PT at one point, isn't he? 2151 01:45:49.520 --> 01:45:50.319 Yeah, like you can't. 2152 01:45:50.399 --> 01:45:54.119 You can't run around them. There's a there's a tread 2153 01:45:54.159 --> 01:45:59.039 they have a treadmill. So and actually that rewinded that 2154 01:45:59.159 --> 01:46:00.760 that's one of the benefits to the SSPM. 2155 01:46:00.800 --> 01:46:01.439 There's a lot more. 2156 01:46:01.359 --> 01:46:05.199 Exercise equipment because says the end way roomy or there's 2157 01:46:05.279 --> 01:46:06.920 so much larger ship, so you have like a little 2158 01:46:07.079 --> 01:46:09.800 gym in the thisipal part where you have like a treadmill. 2159 01:46:09.960 --> 01:46:14.000 Eleptical on a blist on attack submarine you know, your 2160 01:46:14.039 --> 01:46:16.600 treadmill is outboard. Their reduction tears in your room and 2161 01:46:16.600 --> 01:46:18.119 there's like a pipe right in front of your face, 2162 01:46:18.760 --> 01:46:20.640 and you know you run in trying that it's it's 2163 01:46:20.760 --> 01:46:23.439 it's a much more pramped spaces. 2164 01:46:23.520 --> 01:46:27.079 But I don't know, I'm not sure that answers the question. 2165 01:46:27.119 --> 01:46:27.680 I mean, my. 2166 01:46:27.800 --> 01:46:30.600 Understanding of probably the most realistic submary movie is probably 2167 01:46:30.680 --> 01:46:33.399 dust Boot. Now I wasn't on a on a World 2168 01:46:33.399 --> 01:46:35.840 War II submarine, so I know, but my impression is 2169 01:46:35.880 --> 01:46:37.520 that's probably the most accurate. 2170 01:46:39.079 --> 01:46:42.079 Cool from Big Tuna, which is hilarious. 2171 01:46:42.560 --> 01:46:46.279 What dynamic of subsurface nuclear warfare has grown significantly in 2172 01:46:46.319 --> 01:46:47.159 the last decade. 2173 01:46:47.239 --> 01:46:48.079 What's fallen off? 2174 01:46:52.600 --> 01:46:52.760 Well? 2175 01:46:52.880 --> 01:46:56.079 And I think I think as in if you and 2176 01:46:56.199 --> 01:46:58.840 many other parts of the military imprud systems are becoming 2177 01:46:59.000 --> 01:47:02.920 much bigger deal. You know, those aren't nuclear, they're well 2178 01:47:02.920 --> 01:47:04.720 at least not of ours is a record one that's 2179 01:47:05.000 --> 01:47:08.920 a very nuclear power. But are u these are all 2180 01:47:09.760 --> 01:47:15.479 they're all electronic form deep all electric. So the the 2181 01:47:15.640 --> 01:47:19.159 growing part of undercive warfare is is those and also 2182 01:47:19.920 --> 01:47:23.399 UAVs that could be launched by submarties. So the ability 2183 01:47:23.479 --> 01:47:25.479 to send you a these up to get targeting. 2184 01:47:25.159 --> 01:47:29.399 Information or whatever that being said. 2185 01:47:29.680 --> 01:47:32.840 In some ways there's not quite as much change as 2186 01:47:32.880 --> 01:47:36.640 in other parts of the of the military. So for example, 2187 01:47:36.720 --> 01:47:40.039 if you read about quad coppers in Ukraine, you red 2188 01:47:40.079 --> 01:47:42.600 an arcle what those and ninety nine percent of them 2189 01:47:42.720 --> 01:47:45.399 only go about twenty kilometers. You know that they can 2190 01:47:45.439 --> 01:47:47.760 reach that far because they're limited by linus and communication. 2191 01:47:47.880 --> 01:47:50.479 So most of what you see isn't very long range. 2192 01:47:50.520 --> 01:47:53.800 If you look at the ocean, twenty kilometers is not 2193 01:47:54.039 --> 01:47:57.439 very far. It's not much of the Pacific Ocean quite 2194 01:47:57.479 --> 01:48:01.920 frankly in the submrainforest and also in the surface. Maybe 2195 01:48:02.159 --> 01:48:05.399 we've dealt with drones for generations. We call them an 2196 01:48:05.479 --> 01:48:08.079 I shipped cruise missiles. That's kind of your original you know, 2197 01:48:08.239 --> 01:48:11.600 one way attack drone or homing torpedoes. There's a kind 2198 01:48:11.640 --> 01:48:16.479 of a U U attitude, so to speak. So that's 2199 01:48:16.479 --> 01:48:19.000 probably the biggest area of change I would say is 2200 01:48:19.119 --> 01:48:19.640 like crew. 2201 01:48:19.479 --> 01:48:24.920 Systems, all right, we have one more from a tax squirrel. 2202 01:48:25.479 --> 01:48:29.439 What role do autonomy autonomous platforms from companies like an 2203 01:48:29.520 --> 01:48:32.159 Agil General Dynamics play. Are they a danger to our 2204 01:48:32.199 --> 01:48:35.520 own forces or allies? Examples such as Darbu's thing right. 2205 01:48:38.159 --> 01:48:42.760 Uh so, if so in terms of the danger, I mean, 2206 01:48:43.000 --> 01:48:45.239 so the Chinese are definitely working on crew systems in 2207 01:48:45.279 --> 01:48:48.880 a big way, dance some pretty advanced platforms that they're 2208 01:48:48.920 --> 01:48:53.039 working on. Longer jaircrafts us have been spotted on the pier. 2209 01:48:54.000 --> 01:48:55.640 There's not a lot of details at this point, but 2210 01:48:55.800 --> 01:48:58.119 China has a very robust well, I mean, they are 2211 01:48:58.159 --> 01:49:00.880 the world's more more drum insact first by far, I 2212 01:49:00.920 --> 01:49:03.359 mean like far in a way they build most of 2213 01:49:03.359 --> 01:49:04.159 the world's drones. 2214 01:49:04.279 --> 01:49:06.399 So in that sense, they're. 2215 01:49:06.199 --> 01:49:08.359 Going to be a superpower in the in in that 2216 01:49:08.439 --> 01:49:11.800 kind of that kind of drone warfare. How much of 2217 01:49:11.800 --> 01:49:14.159 a threat are they? So if we're talking about the 2218 01:49:14.239 --> 01:49:18.239 undersea in particular, I think sometimes the threat from you 2219 01:49:18.520 --> 01:49:21.680 these two submarines can be a little can be a 2220 01:49:21.720 --> 01:49:25.760 little overblown, maybe because it's just physics. I mean, so 2221 01:49:26.880 --> 01:49:29.399 unless you have a nuclear power plant, so if you submerge, 2222 01:49:29.479 --> 01:49:32.279 you're on a battery or you're running a diesel engine. 2223 01:49:32.880 --> 01:49:35.359 So there's no drone on the planet that's going to 2224 01:49:35.439 --> 01:49:37.960 keep up with a nuclear submarine for any significant distance. 2225 01:49:39.039 --> 01:49:41.399 So while drones might be a threat like close to 2226 01:49:41.479 --> 01:49:45.079 a work for submarines and any kind of a glorified mind. 2227 01:49:45.880 --> 01:49:50.800 Open ocean not really a threat, Thomas, what do you 2228 01:49:51.000 --> 01:49:54.319 think would be you know, sort of in a a 2229 01:49:54.760 --> 01:49:58.840 sci fi corner kind of futuristic idea, What do you 2230 01:49:58.920 --> 01:50:03.319 think would be an interesting and beneficial way for the 2231 01:50:03.520 --> 01:50:07.039 US Navy to move, whether it's subject can go deeper, 2232 01:50:07.359 --> 01:50:11.319 subs that can go longer, weapon you know, ideas that 2233 01:50:11.399 --> 01:50:15.760 maybe that aren't practical or or haven't been experimented on yet, 2234 01:50:15.880 --> 01:50:18.319 but ideas that would be beneficial to us. 2235 01:50:19.880 --> 01:50:21.920 Well, and I'll tell you I wrote a whole artful 2236 01:50:21.920 --> 01:50:26.000 about this in twenty seventeen. So I proposed and I 2237 01:50:26.079 --> 01:50:28.800 still think it's a good idea. And all you av 2238 01:50:28.920 --> 01:50:31.600 aircraft carrier, So this is and what I mean by 2239 01:50:32.199 --> 01:50:35.319 all I don't mean to carry itself is unprude. I 2240 01:50:35.479 --> 01:50:37.800 just mean that all that carries is on fruit aircraft 2241 01:50:38.560 --> 01:50:42.319 because I think that I don't think that drone, you know, 2242 01:50:42.520 --> 01:50:46.199 UAVs at C are ever going to get where they 2243 01:50:46.319 --> 01:50:49.199 could be as long as they're as long as the carrier. Well, 2244 01:50:49.239 --> 01:50:51.079 I don't think I'll ever get more will be as 2245 01:50:51.119 --> 01:50:54.359 long as it's bringing along all the liabilities associated with 2246 01:50:54.479 --> 01:50:55.079 mand aviation. 2247 01:50:56.279 --> 01:50:59.840 So like imagine that's a good way to pay. 2248 01:51:00.439 --> 01:51:04.880 Imagine ship this kind of you know, much smaller twenty thirty, 2249 01:51:04.920 --> 01:51:08.159 forty thousand times. It's kind of stealthy looking, and all 2250 01:51:08.199 --> 01:51:10.760 the drones are inside of it, and instead of having 2251 01:51:10.800 --> 01:51:13.159 a regular flight deck, like you're hurling these things out 2252 01:51:13.199 --> 01:51:15.479 off of catapult, you know, with g forces that no 2253 01:51:15.680 --> 01:51:17.119 human pilot could ever withstand. 2254 01:51:17.920 --> 01:51:19.600 Let's say they come in and they land. You know, 2255 01:51:19.680 --> 01:51:20.720 they can land tail. 2256 01:51:20.520 --> 01:51:23.000 First because they were computer controlled and can land in 2257 01:51:23.079 --> 01:51:25.560 ways that human pilots couldn't really do. It's like they 2258 01:51:25.680 --> 01:51:27.920 land tail first, then they kind of go onto like 2259 01:51:27.960 --> 01:51:30.920 an assembly line inside the ship. You could send them 2260 01:51:31.000 --> 01:51:33.199 on one way missions, you know, double the range if 2261 01:51:33.199 --> 01:51:35.680 you had to. You could keep them aloft up in 2262 01:51:35.720 --> 01:51:38.640 the air for far longer than human pilots could could 2263 01:51:39.479 --> 01:51:44.800 could could take, could deal with. So I think that 2264 01:51:45.039 --> 01:51:47.159 is that hasn't been my idea of last year's is 2265 01:51:47.479 --> 01:51:50.960 let's build a carrier that is one percent optimized for 2266 01:51:51.079 --> 01:51:53.960 my crewed aircraft. It really takes advantage of them. What 2267 01:51:54.159 --> 01:51:57.760 kind of all the liabilities associated with manned aircrafts? Well, 2268 01:51:57.800 --> 01:51:59.960 guess who went and built a drone carrier? 2269 01:52:01.479 --> 01:52:05.920 The Chinese? Difficult, less complete, not not not quite what 2270 01:52:06.039 --> 01:52:06.560 I propose. 2271 01:52:06.960 --> 01:52:09.760 It looks like they're mostly for exercise support, but they 2272 01:52:10.319 --> 01:52:12.119 have built all u AV carriers. 2273 01:52:12.239 --> 01:52:16.279 Interesting and when it comes to submersibles, if we got 2274 01:52:16.600 --> 01:52:22.000 rid of the human uh you know, vulnerability to pressure, 2275 01:52:22.600 --> 01:52:26.039 if we could flood compartments with you know, with water whatnot? 2276 01:52:26.520 --> 01:52:27.560 Are are there electronics? 2277 01:52:27.600 --> 01:52:30.199 Are there systems that could survive at deeper depths and 2278 01:52:30.279 --> 01:52:34.159 we can imagine and sort of create the same sort 2279 01:52:34.199 --> 01:52:35.079 of capabilities. 2280 01:52:37.000 --> 01:52:40.239 They're definitely advantages to be had with you use these, 2281 01:52:40.800 --> 01:52:42.159 one of them being like, you don't have to have 2282 01:52:42.239 --> 01:52:45.399 a pressure ball, it's right, I mean generally you of 2283 01:52:45.439 --> 01:52:47.880 these do you still have a pressure ball, you know, 2284 01:52:48.159 --> 01:52:49.960 to heavy electronics and stuff like that inside it, but 2285 01:52:50.000 --> 01:52:50.800 it's much smaller. 2286 01:52:51.439 --> 01:52:52.960 Most of the boat could be free flood. 2287 01:52:53.479 --> 01:52:55.960 It doesn't have to the same safety requirements the same 2288 01:52:57.079 --> 01:52:59.159 you know, you don't have to spend as much money 2289 01:52:59.239 --> 01:53:01.439 to do the same thing. Which is why if you know, 2290 01:53:01.479 --> 01:53:03.119 there are some reasons they're very good. They can be 2291 01:53:03.239 --> 01:53:05.199 very good for it. They'd go deeper than an advanced 2292 01:53:05.239 --> 01:53:07.960 submarine can go. They could be used for mining missions 2293 01:53:08.000 --> 01:53:10.439 that you would never send a human you know, a 2294 01:53:10.520 --> 01:53:13.199 man submarine in for and shallow water, you can get 2295 01:53:13.199 --> 01:53:14.439 into riskier places. 2296 01:53:15.640 --> 01:53:18.800 So to be clear, there are lots of advantages to 2297 01:53:19.439 --> 01:53:19.880 use these. 2298 01:53:20.560 --> 01:53:23.239 I just think that I think there are some people 2299 01:53:23.319 --> 01:53:25.319 that have these ideas that they're going to be joined 2300 01:53:25.359 --> 01:53:27.800 on a submarine warfare the shoot torpedoes and all that 2301 01:53:27.840 --> 01:53:30.199 kind of stuff, And I think that's a long long 2302 01:53:30.279 --> 01:53:34.159 way to do that kind of thing, because submarine, like 2303 01:53:34.479 --> 01:53:38.239 just just facifying what you're listening to can be really 2304 01:53:38.319 --> 01:53:42.000 really hard, even with lots of humans with experience and 2305 01:53:42.079 --> 01:53:44.239 a room full of computers. I mean, there's just there's 2306 01:53:44.319 --> 01:53:47.079 just a lot of noise in the ocean, right, you'd 2307 01:53:47.119 --> 01:53:49.680 be surprised just a harder and even know what you're 2308 01:53:49.720 --> 01:53:53.279 looking at sometimes as opposed to I can very much 2309 01:53:53.319 --> 01:53:56.000 see like you've got some this UV out there. 2310 01:53:56.399 --> 01:53:58.000 Let's say it's got tomawoks on board. 2311 01:53:58.680 --> 01:54:02.239 You know, you send it a message, shoot at this target, 2312 01:54:02.359 --> 01:54:04.479 this time, this target package. You know. 2313 01:54:05.880 --> 01:54:08.159 I don't think there's any engineering miracles required to do that. 2314 01:54:08.359 --> 01:54:10.199 That sounds like something that could be do with HORB 2315 01:54:10.560 --> 01:54:13.640 go to this place, drop minds in this location, or 2316 01:54:14.359 --> 01:54:16.319 you know, hang out here and if somebody drives by, 2317 01:54:16.640 --> 01:54:18.720 come up and send a message. You know, I could 2318 01:54:18.720 --> 01:54:20.479 see a lot of things that could be very useful. 2319 01:54:21.560 --> 01:54:22.359 It's fascinating. 2320 01:54:22.600 --> 01:54:23.279 And so. 2321 01:54:24.800 --> 01:54:27.319 You know, I don't want to make this political, and 2322 01:54:27.359 --> 01:54:29.720 I'm not like here to promote must but I'm going 2323 01:54:29.800 --> 01:54:32.520 to say that, you know, a private company was able 2324 01:54:32.560 --> 01:54:36.039 to do something that a long standing government contractor was 2325 01:54:36.119 --> 01:54:40.079 not able to do with the rescue is And you know, 2326 01:54:40.159 --> 01:54:43.079 when we've talked, like Alex Holng's about these small companies 2327 01:54:43.199 --> 01:54:47.680 creating these you know, hypersonics and things like that, is 2328 01:54:47.800 --> 01:54:50.920 the government willing to look at these companies that are 2329 01:54:51.000 --> 01:54:56.880 not like the traditional defense contractors and take on board 2330 01:54:57.239 --> 01:55:00.680 what they are able to do or what their ideas 2331 01:55:00.800 --> 01:55:05.079 are or are is that that sort of military industrial 2332 01:55:05.159 --> 01:55:05.960 complex is so. 2333 01:55:08.479 --> 01:55:11.319 Firm at this point that it's tough for them to 2334 01:55:11.399 --> 01:55:11.640 do that. 2335 01:55:13.439 --> 01:55:13.560 Well. 2336 01:55:13.600 --> 01:55:16.479 I mean, there we certainly have seen some new entrants. 2337 01:55:16.479 --> 01:55:18.920 I mean, you know, nobody ever heard of angerill before, 2338 01:55:19.319 --> 01:55:22.640 you know, not that long ago, so there's a lot 2339 01:55:22.680 --> 01:55:22.960 about it. 2340 01:55:23.039 --> 01:55:25.000 I think there are a fair number of other smaller 2341 01:55:25.039 --> 01:55:25.880 startups that are. 2342 01:55:25.800 --> 01:55:30.960 Working on some pretty interesting stuff, and I mean it's 2343 01:55:31.000 --> 01:55:33.079 it's a challenge for sure, and the trime. 2344 01:55:34.560 --> 01:55:37.039 I mean at their place, I mean, this is part 2345 01:55:37.039 --> 01:55:37.600 of thee. 2346 01:55:37.760 --> 01:55:39.640 Yet again, one of those post cod War things is 2347 01:55:39.680 --> 01:55:41.439 if you look at there used to be like thirty 2348 01:55:41.520 --> 01:55:45.640 or forty major defense contractors and now there's five. So 2349 01:55:46.640 --> 01:55:48.279 if we can get those numbers back cups on them 2350 01:55:48.319 --> 01:55:50.760 and get and get some more new blood, I think 2351 01:55:50.760 --> 01:55:51.560 that would be a good thing. 2352 01:55:52.760 --> 01:55:54.920 You know, is there a model in SpaceX. 2353 01:55:56.039 --> 01:55:58.479 Let's be clear, space X is part of it too, right, 2354 01:55:58.520 --> 01:56:02.359 I mean there's death the military applications for a lot 2355 01:56:02.399 --> 01:56:05.399 of that kind of lash stuff that SpaceX brings to 2356 01:56:05.479 --> 01:56:09.399 the table, and it's very much a defense contractor. Yeah, 2357 01:56:09.680 --> 01:56:15.199 so you know, good good. You know Tesla bring new 2358 01:56:15.319 --> 01:56:16.920 capabilities to military vehicles. 2359 01:56:17.159 --> 01:56:19.119 I can I can. I can imagine they really could. 2360 01:56:19.159 --> 01:56:20.359 I mean, they're amazing vehicles. 2361 01:56:21.560 --> 01:56:28.119 So again I say again that I think that necessity 2362 01:56:28.159 --> 01:56:29.920 will be the mother invention in many ways. I think 2363 01:56:29.960 --> 01:56:32.920 we're I think we're now facing such a severe rent 2364 01:56:33.319 --> 01:56:35.640 from China and hopefully hopefully it will drive us forward 2365 01:56:35.720 --> 01:56:37.279 to make some progress and these sorts of things. 2366 01:56:37.680 --> 01:56:40.640 Are you seeing that in the government side, Republican Democrat 2367 01:56:40.760 --> 01:56:45.119 regardless that that military, like, are people starting to wake 2368 01:56:45.199 --> 01:56:45.960 up to this threat? 2369 01:56:48.079 --> 01:56:48.279 Yeah? 2370 01:56:48.319 --> 01:56:51.640 I mean I think Congress, we have a pretty solid 2371 01:56:51.720 --> 01:56:55.000 by by partisan understanding. 2372 01:56:54.520 --> 01:56:57.800 Of the threat. You know, different people have different ideas 2373 01:56:57.840 --> 01:57:00.319 about how to deal with it, obviously, sure, and. 2374 01:57:01.880 --> 01:57:05.039 But I mean I certainly in every every testimony that 2375 01:57:05.079 --> 01:57:08.800 I've ever given, you should Senate Formulations Committee or the 2376 01:57:08.880 --> 01:57:09.800 US China Commission. 2377 01:57:09.840 --> 01:57:12.960 I mean, I get generally the same. It doesn't feel 2378 01:57:12.960 --> 01:57:16.279 any different what's coming from both sides, right, And there's. 2379 01:57:16.079 --> 01:57:20.600 There's seems certainly certainly with the like folks like in 2380 01:57:20.680 --> 01:57:22.720 the SASK and the and the Intel committees, like they're 2381 01:57:22.760 --> 01:57:25.399 getting too details and there is no ignoring the details 2382 01:57:25.520 --> 01:57:28.079 once you understand them. You know, there there are people 2383 01:57:28.119 --> 01:57:30.439 who are not aware of the China threat because they're 2384 01:57:30.479 --> 01:57:33.159 just not aware of it. Once you understand the scale, 2385 01:57:33.279 --> 01:57:36.560 once you understand the numbers, it's no denying. 2386 01:57:36.560 --> 01:57:38.359 I mean like that, that's like I. 2387 01:57:38.479 --> 01:57:41.000 Tell people, like sometimes some people may think I'm alarmist. 2388 01:57:41.159 --> 01:57:45.079 I give facts, provide facts. If the facts are alarming, 2389 01:57:45.199 --> 01:57:46.840 then they are they are what they are. 2390 01:57:47.119 --> 01:57:51.119 Right, tom Where can people go to find you and 2391 01:57:51.199 --> 01:57:51.800 find your work? 2392 01:57:53.760 --> 01:57:53.800 So? 2393 01:57:53.960 --> 01:57:57.279 As I said, I'm a junk c or fellow the 2394 01:57:57.520 --> 01:58:00.319 CNA S so my my work is so of it's 2395 01:58:00.359 --> 01:58:03.760 on their website. You know for the various articles I've 2396 01:58:03.760 --> 01:58:08.439 been quoted in or whatnot. You'll see me some from 2397 01:58:08.479 --> 01:58:12.359 time to time in various media. Let's be my interview 2398 01:58:12.479 --> 01:58:14.239 for this and that you can lead about the Chinese military. 2399 01:58:14.560 --> 01:58:17.399 I on Twitter, T shirt gret three. That's where I 2400 01:58:17.439 --> 01:58:21.199 do most of my talking, and that's where I part fampions, 2401 01:58:21.239 --> 01:58:23.840 where I do a lot of my what to find 2402 01:58:23.920 --> 01:58:26.439 things I take, I talk about them there first. So 2403 01:58:26.720 --> 01:58:30.279 the new things I see in Chinese shipyards, you think 2404 01:58:30.279 --> 01:58:32.680 about seeing them on marine traffic or whatever is going on. 2405 01:58:33.560 --> 01:58:36.960 Sometimes the returning my other people, there's kind of about 2406 01:58:37.000 --> 01:58:39.159 a labor saving device for me is rather than have 2407 01:58:39.239 --> 01:58:40.840 to go write an article, I'm just on Twitter and 2408 01:58:40.880 --> 01:58:42.439 then if somebody wants to write an article about if 2409 01:58:42.439 --> 01:58:42.640 you can. 2410 01:58:43.680 --> 01:58:47.520 So that's probably my my number one outlet. 2411 01:58:47.600 --> 01:58:50.239 I also most often when I do write articles, you'll 2412 01:58:50.279 --> 01:58:52.079 find them in a War on the Rocks. If you 2413 01:58:52.119 --> 01:58:54.119 get to war the Rocks dot com and look under 2414 01:58:54.159 --> 01:58:55.880 my name, you'll see all the articles that are written 2415 01:58:55.920 --> 01:58:56.560 for them, which are. 2416 01:58:56.479 --> 01:58:59.720 Were most of my articles have been. Tom. 2417 01:58:59.760 --> 01:59:01.600 Thanks, thank you so much for spending your evening with 2418 01:59:01.800 --> 01:59:04.239 us and walking us through a whole bunch of stuff. 2419 01:59:04.279 --> 01:59:06.840 I didn't really know anything about before. Yes, fascinating. We 2420 01:59:06.920 --> 01:59:08.319 really appreciate your expertise. 2421 01:59:09.439 --> 01:59:11.720 Oh, thank you, Jim. I appreciate your interest. I mean 2422 01:59:11.920 --> 01:59:14.640 I watched I watched some of your videos and I know, 2423 01:59:14.840 --> 01:59:18.199 just in frame different content than you you typically have. 2424 01:59:18.399 --> 01:59:21.359 And I hope, I'm I hope I've kept your kept 2425 01:59:21.399 --> 01:59:24.079 your viewers interested in something that's pretty different than than 2426 01:59:24.439 --> 01:59:27.279 than really really quite frankly exciting and exotic things you 2427 01:59:27.359 --> 01:59:28.520 guys usually easily talked about. 2428 01:59:28.800 --> 01:59:30.640 This is pretty exciting and exotic. 2429 01:59:30.800 --> 01:59:31.760 I mean, I think too. 2430 01:59:32.079 --> 01:59:33.199 It's all new to me too. 2431 01:59:33.279 --> 01:59:35.079 I learned so much when I talk to guys like 2432 01:59:35.159 --> 01:59:38.560 you that are kind of outside that you know framework. 2433 01:59:40.039 --> 01:59:42.880 So yeah, again, thank you Tom and everyone else. We 2434 01:59:42.960 --> 01:59:47.880 will see you again next week. Okay, thanks Jelen, appreciate it. 2435 01:59:47.960 --> 01:59:48.520 Let me get you care. 2436 01:59:50.560 --> 01:59:52.399 Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to 2437 01:59:52.399 --> 01:59:54.600 you for a moment about how you can support the show. 2438 01:59:54.760 --> 01:59:57.399 If you've been watching it enjoying it, but you'd like 2439 01:59:57.439 --> 01:59:59.279 to get a little bit more involved and help us 2440 01:59:59.319 --> 02:00:02.039 continue to do this, you can check out our Patreon 2441 02:00:02.479 --> 02:00:06.479 It is patreon dot com, slash the teamhouse and for 2442 02:00:06.920 --> 02:00:09.439 five dollars a month, you can get access to all 2443 02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:13.279 of these episodes of the Teamhouse ad free. The same 2444 02:00:13.359 --> 02:00:16.920 goes with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn, 2445 02:00:17.039 --> 02:00:20.680 Jason Lyons mcmulroy that one, you will also get all 2446 02:00:20.720 --> 02:00:25.239 of those episodes add free and you support the channel 2447 02:00:25.319 --> 02:00:27.800 and the show, and we really appreciate it. The Patreon 2448 02:00:27.920 --> 02:00:32.039 members are literally what has helped this company, this small 2449 02:00:32.119 --> 02:00:36.560 business survive, especially during our early years, and you are 2450 02:00:36.640 --> 02:00:39.720 what continues to help this thing going even as we 2451 02:00:39.880 --> 02:00:43.439 navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. 2452 02:00:43.720 --> 02:00:45.479 So we really appreciate all of you guys. 2453 02:00:46.399 --> 02:00:48.000 There's going to be a link down in the description 2454 02:00:48.159 --> 02:00:51.600 to that Patreon page, and there is also going to 2455 02:00:51.640 --> 02:00:54.479 be a link to our new merch shop, so if 2456 02:00:54.479 --> 02:00:56.840 you guys want to go and get some Teamhouse merchandise, 2457 02:00:56.920 --> 02:01:00.479 we got stickers and we also have patches, and I 2458 02:01:00.479 --> 02:01:03.439 should mention if you sign up for Patreon at ten 2459 02:01:03.479 --> 02:01:05.720 dollars a month, we will mail you this patch as well, 2460 02:01:07.239 --> 02:01:10.640 so we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale 2461 02:01:10.680 --> 02:01:14.279 on the merch shop and additionally, they got t shirts 2462 02:01:14.359 --> 02:01:19.039 up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all 2463 02:01:19.119 --> 02:01:21.800 that good stuff. So please go and check them out 2464 02:01:21.880 --> 02:01:24.600 and support the show. We really appreciate it, guys. 2465 02:01:24.680 --> 02:01:24.960 Thank you.