Speaker 1: My Monday afternoon in the Tri State. Welcome again to
Speaker 1: the Bill Cunningham Show. Reds Baseball kicks off first pitch
Speaker 1: about six forty air time, about five forty tonight. As
Speaker 1: you may know, the Reds beat up on the Baltimore
Speaker 1: Orioles big time. Twenty forty two. That's right, twenty four
Speaker 1: to two. They allowed us safety. That's all they allowed,
Speaker 1: as Baltimore went down hard than out back to five hundred.
Speaker 1: See what happens tonight in Miami. Three in Miami, then
Speaker 1: three in Colorado and away we go. But this morning
Speaker 1: I had the very sad news the passing of Pope.
Speaker 1: The Pope has died and Francis is now in heaven.
Speaker 1: We got almighty we anticipate. And then he took over
Speaker 1: from Benedict who resigned in twenty thirteen. So Francis has
Speaker 1: been the Pope for about twelve years or so. And
Speaker 1: joining you and I now is Michael McDonald of the
Speaker 1: Catholic League in New York City. And Michael McDonald, welcome
Speaker 1: again to the Bill Cunningham Show. And first of all,
Speaker 1: give me your reaction on his passing earlier today.
Speaker 2: Hey, Bill Cunningham, great to be with you as always. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is really sad news. You know, whenever holy man,
Speaker 2: especially as someone high ranking as Pope Francis, has died,
Speaker 2: as a moment for prayers and reflection, not only for
Speaker 2: the repose of his soul, but also for where the
Speaker 2: church goes from here. And just keep praying that the
Speaker 2: Holy ghost guides the cardinals to make the right decision
Speaker 2: in the coming weeks for the successor.
Speaker 3: I've seen the movie Conclave.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's going to go that way, but nonetheless,
Speaker 1: I watched Cardinal Dolan this morning who said that if
Speaker 1: one head of fashion his own demise, it would have
Speaker 1: been the way that this pope went out, Francis by
Speaker 1: having one last lap in the popemobile around Vatican Square
Speaker 1: and saying goodbye. I mean, he looked good enough to live,
Speaker 1: but we don't know the circumstances of death. No autopsies
Speaker 1: are ever performs, so we anticipate it was a respiratory failure.
Speaker 3: Give me the legacy.
Speaker 1: Looking back, the last thirty or forty years had Jeohn
Speaker 1: Paul the Second, with John Paul the First who was
Speaker 1: in office about a month, and John Paul the Second.
Speaker 1: Then it went to Benedict the German. And this was
Speaker 1: historical because Berglio from Rendzsaurus was perceived as a liberal.
Speaker 1: He was perceived they're going to change things, and he
Speaker 1: put his own imprint on the papacy. Many liberals thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: he's going to reprove the same sex marriage, or women
Speaker 1: can be priest, or priest can marry. A lot of
Speaker 1: those things did not happen. But I know many conservative
Speaker 1: Catholics who were not happy with his rule, and many
Speaker 1: liberals at times were not happy either. Did he live
Speaker 1: out when he was selected about twelve years ago in
Speaker 1: March at twenty thirteen, And if somebody could have looked
Speaker 1: over the last the next twelve years of his papacy
Speaker 1: in a way, did he anger both sides? Did he
Speaker 1: anger a little bit liberals and conservatives both?
Speaker 2: You know, Bill, I think that's actually probably the right
Speaker 2: take here, Pote Francis. For all the glowing reviews he
Speaker 2: got in the media, he did kind of struggle a
Speaker 2: little bit with both sort of wings of the Catholic Church,
Speaker 2: the more liberal, reform minded, very pro Vatican Two. Even
Speaker 2: the people that think Vatican Two didn't go far enough.
Speaker 2: They wanted to see obviously wanted to see more out
Speaker 2: of Pope Francis's tenure in the chair of Saint Peter.
Speaker 2: And then again on the more traditional side of things,
Speaker 2: he was not the most vocal champion of traditional morals.
Speaker 2: He pretty much just canceled the Latin mass across the church,
Speaker 2: kind of seemed to be butting heads a lot with
Speaker 2: the American cardinals, the American bishops, and some of he had,
Speaker 2: you know, again getting into the weeds a little bit
Speaker 2: on some of these reforms. Definitely did try to centralize
Speaker 2: power in himself and the Vatican really trying to move
Speaker 2: the ball, but the institution of the Church itself, it
Speaker 2: just kind of seemed to be a bit of a
Speaker 2: bridge too far to get a lot of these more
Speaker 2: reformist goals initiated. So yeah, it does sort of seem
Speaker 2: to be a bit of a checkered past. Probably didn't
Speaker 2: do enough from one side of the equation, probably did
Speaker 2: too much from the other side, but sort of left
Speaker 2: things somewhere in the middle, and now the Vatican's going
Speaker 2: to have to pick up the pieces and try and
Speaker 2: figure out which direction are we going to continue in
Speaker 2: sort of the mold of Francis and try and move
Speaker 2: things more in the direction of reform, or are we
Speaker 2: going to go with someone like Saint John Paul, the
Speaker 2: second Pope Benedict the sixteenth, who were much more of
Speaker 2: the traditionalist school of thought.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no question where we go from here.
Speaker 1: There was a hope by some that he would approve
Speaker 1: a priest to marry, which isn't a new concept, as
Speaker 1: Tony Bender knows, for the first one thousand years of
Speaker 1: our existence. But priest did marry and so that wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been a big deal. But women as priest that
Speaker 1: would be a much different situation. He also reached out
Speaker 1: to gay individuals who said that you are part of
Speaker 1: this church, which was a concern to some. He did
Speaker 1: not get into the transgender debate much about males and females,
Speaker 1: but just on the idea that priest can marry. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us why that would not be so revolutionary?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, as you pointed out that that was
Speaker 2: a reform in the Middle Ages to put a stop
Speaker 2: to that, and at the time, the reasoning was that
Speaker 2: the church was losing control of the parishes themselves. The
Speaker 2: families were taking control of them and leaving it to
Speaker 2: their sons to continue running the church. So yeah, personally,
Speaker 2: I think that was probably the right thing to do
Speaker 2: at the time and probably something we should keep on
Speaker 2: the books for now. But just a real quick bill
Speaker 2: on the subject of transgenderismo. Francis actually was a little
Speaker 2: bit more vocal on the US at times, very very confusing,
Speaker 2: because the only stories that you really see about Pope
Speaker 2: Francis and the transgender question was he had a bunch
Speaker 2: of them over for dinner one night or breakfast in
Speaker 2: the Vatican, whatever it was. But in the past he's
Speaker 2: called it demonic, he has called the transgenderism a form
Speaker 2: of ideological colonization, and he has been a little bit
Speaker 2: more forced wellness. Just the left wing media was doing
Speaker 2: a lot to prop up their man and try and
Speaker 2: present him as the loving guy that was just really
Speaker 2: caring about poor people and was worried about climate change.
Speaker 2: But there are some things that traditionalists would actually appreciate
Speaker 2: about Pope Francis. But again, he was very prone to
Speaker 2: speaking off the cuff, very prone to just you know,
Speaker 2: suffering from jet lag, getting on the Vatican plane and
Speaker 2: saying and here's how I really feel about things, and
Speaker 2: not actually thinking through everything, which obviously created a lot
Speaker 2: of headaches for people working in the church.
Speaker 1: You know, one thing I've noticed sixty minutes even to
Speaker 1: the story on this about a year ago, the renaissance
Speaker 1: of Christianity, especially among the young. And they return to
Speaker 1: shall I say to the faith and that young people
Speaker 1: in the last election, this is certainly probably Trump's behavior
Speaker 1: is not the Pope's a favorite. But nonetheless there was
Speaker 1: a renaissance of the young turning toward more conservative values,
Speaker 1: which is why Trump was elected president. And now there's
Speaker 1: a renaissance of Christianity among colleges. There was this plaintive
Speaker 1: crime in Kentucky, Missouri elsewhere that colleges have a large
Speaker 1: group of practicing evangelistic Christians and or Roman Catholics, which
Speaker 1: I haven't seen before. I go to a little Catholic
Speaker 1: church here in Cincinnati called Saint Gertrude's and an Easter vigil.
Speaker 1: Penny and I had to get there at eight thirty
Speaker 1: to get a seat, and the proceedings to not begin
Speaker 1: to after nine pm Saturday night, and we were there
Speaker 1: until midnight, three hours, and there was young and old,
Speaker 1: and it was just a fabulous service put on by
Speaker 1: the Dominicans. It was wonderful, and I spoke to a
Speaker 1: couple of the priests thereafter. It was late, it was
Speaker 1: early in the morning in fact, But nonetheless there's a
Speaker 1: sense that Christian and Catholic schools are doing quite well.
Speaker 1: Have you sense some the Catholic Lake in New York City,
Speaker 1: Mike McDonald, a return to traditional values that we didn't
Speaker 1: think would happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, And there is a very interesting
Speaker 2: point on that. It does seem to be particularly the
Speaker 2: within the Catholic Church, the more traditional minded orders of nuns,
Speaker 2: the brothers, parishes, dioceses, they seem to be the ones
Speaker 2: that are doing the best in terms of preserving the
Speaker 2: faith and bringing in new people, growing the community. We
Speaker 2: actually did a report on this on Catholic League dot
Speaker 2: org probably about two years ago, comparing the Church in
Speaker 2: Germany and the Church in Nigeria. Church in Germany obviously
Speaker 2: very rich, richest diocese in the world. Church in Nigeria
Speaker 2: very poor. They're they're constantly being attacked by Muslim extremists,
Speaker 2: very hard times, but the Church in Nigeria is flourishing.
Speaker 2: The Church in Germany is dying off, and the Nigerians
Speaker 2: are very quick to hold two traditional values, whereas the
Speaker 2: Germans are you ready to jettisen in them for the
Speaker 2: next new thing. So that does seem to be a trend.
Speaker 2: And even in the Christian community more broadly, even though
Speaker 2: within the evangelical circles, the more traditionally minded evangelical pastors,
Speaker 2: their churches are the ones that are growing that they
Speaker 2: are actually the ones with the young families in them.
Speaker 2: Whereas you look at the mainline Protestants like the Episcopalians,
Speaker 2: you got a bunch of white haired people that are
Speaker 2: you know, just sitting in God's waiting room. The churches
Speaker 2: are slowly dying, very very sad deaths, and so there
Speaker 2: is something to this. And you know, the return of
Speaker 2: Trump to the White House definitely that more traditional mind
Speaker 2: is attitude, particularly young people reverting to their faith going
Speaker 2: back in greater numbers. This is definitely going to have
Speaker 2: a massive impact on society moving forward. It's unfortunate that
Speaker 2: Pope Francis was kind of the urch nemesis within the
Speaker 2: Catholic Church anyway of the more traditional stuff. You who's
Speaker 2: vehemently opposed to Latin Mass and things of that nature.
Speaker 2: So a lot of these things kind of seem to
Speaker 2: happen in spite of Pope Francis's leadership.
Speaker 1: And one thing is next well, one thing in the
Speaker 1: media there is the obliteration of Christianity and Catholics buried alive, tortured.
Speaker 1: The Muslim attacks on Catholics happening all over Africa is
Speaker 1: not well reported. You've seen some of the videos. I've
Speaker 1: seen some of the videos. People are being killed because
Speaker 1: of their faith. That would never happen in Germany. It
Speaker 1: would never happen in France. And in fact, most of
Speaker 1: the churches and cathedrals in France are like tourist attractions.
Speaker 1: They're not real churches, even Notre Dame Cathedral as a
Speaker 1: tourist attraction because the practice is almost non existent. Now, lastly,
Speaker 1: before I let you go, Mike McDonald of the Catholic League,
Speaker 1: who's the next Pope? I saw the movie Conclave and
Speaker 1: they selected someone that, shall we say, an amorphi dite
Speaker 1: or something like that from Afghanistan?
Speaker 3: Do you see that happening?
Speaker 1: That We're going to have some conclave in about two
Speaker 1: weeks and there's going to be two hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: two cardinals, but only one hundred and thirty eight or
Speaker 1: electors one hundred and thirty eight or so, they're going
Speaker 1: to be in the Sistine Chapel, And what's the early
Speaker 1: pick for the pope h.
Speaker 2: S bill your guests is as good as mine, just
Speaker 2: looking around at how it went last time with the
Speaker 2: election of Pope Francis. Even Patty Power, the famous gambling website,
Speaker 2: they didn't even give outs on They didn't give odds
Speaker 2: on Fancas. As we know from writing the elections, typically
Speaker 2: the gamblers tend to predict the outcome much more accurately
Speaker 2: than the pollsters do, and so they couldn't get it.
Speaker 2: So this is really down to the guidance of the
Speaker 2: Holy Ghost here. Looking at even last time, just looking
Speaker 2: at the headlines, I found one mention of Pope Francis
Speaker 2: Cardinal Bogoglio in anything, and I think it was the
Speaker 2: Guardian said, you know, he came in second to Pope
Speaker 2: Benedict the sixteenth, so he's probably not going to do
Speaker 2: anything in this time, Clay. But next thing, you know,
Speaker 2: he's the elected guy. But yes, I'm fairly certain that
Speaker 2: it's not going to have a surprise twist at the
Speaker 2: ending with some hermaphrodite getting elected and like they did,
Speaker 2: in Hollywood and now that that was just a bizarre
Speaker 2: They just were ripping on us.
Speaker 3: Bizarre.
Speaker 1: I'm watching this, I'm thinking the political training at Satura.
Speaker 1: Of course, the websites are out with some of the
Speaker 1: names being mentioned. There's no chance I would assume a
Speaker 1: Cardinal Dolwan getting the gig.
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
Speaker 2: You know? I don't think so. I mean, most people
Speaker 2: don't know this, but at the age of seventy five,
Speaker 2: the bishops are supposed to send in their letter of resignation,
Speaker 2: and Cardinal Dolan just turned seventy five in February, so
Speaker 2: it's probably probably a little too old, which is unfortunately.
Speaker 2: He did a lot of good things here in New
Speaker 2: York and we're lucky that we still have him. Hopefully
Speaker 2: we keep him a little bit longer, but it would
Speaker 2: be great to get an American hope in there, but
Speaker 2: probably I don't think it's in the cards this time.
Speaker 1: The media likes Cardinal or Robert Sarah. He's seventy nine
Speaker 1: years old, is a former Vatican official from Guinea. He's
Speaker 1: an African, he's black, and that's the favorite of the
Speaker 1: mainstream media. And if it's someone other than Italian or European.
Speaker 1: That would be a big surprise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that'd be very interesting, and it is
Speaker 2: kind of odd to see Sarah's name getting floating around that.
Speaker 2: I mean, he is older than Dolwan, and I know
Speaker 2: that is something that they're going to be taken into consideration.
Speaker 2: But he's also very strong on the social issues, very
Speaker 2: forceful on the moral teachings of the church. So definitely
Speaker 2: not some that the mainstream media would like. I mean,
Speaker 2: they'll probably do the same thing, downplay that as much
Speaker 2: as possible anytime that Pope Francis. I mean, we can't
Speaker 2: even say. Some of the things that Pope Francis said
Speaker 2: about homosexuals in the church on radio, he would rip
Speaker 2: into them, but you would never hear a word about
Speaker 2: that in the mainstream media because he you know, he
Speaker 2: was there to fight global warming and do nice outreach
Speaker 2: to the homosexuals, and he really cared about poor people.
Speaker 2: Never Mind, he never said anything about moral teaching, and
Speaker 2: he did, to his credit, he did say some things
Speaker 2: a little convoluted, could have been a little bit clear,
Speaker 2: a little bit more forceful, But you know, the media
Speaker 2: just completely ignored those issues because they had a narrative
Speaker 2: that needed protecting at all costs, and unfortunately some of
Speaker 2: the good things that Pope Francis did kind of did
Speaker 2: get lost in that narrative. We'll see they'll probably try
Speaker 2: and do the same thing with Sarah, but he's actually
Speaker 2: much more of a traditional mindset. He is one of
Speaker 2: the great ap African prelates, and it's good the cardinals
Speaker 2: should give a lot of credence to the great things
Speaker 2: that the Church in Africa has done. As you were
Speaker 2: mentioning that they're besieged by Islamic extremists and yet somehow
Speaker 2: their communities are still flourishing when martyrdom is generally the
Speaker 2: price that people do have to pay to be a
Speaker 2: Christian in Africa, So that's they're doing the Lord's work
Speaker 2: there and maybe we do need someone with that sort
Speaker 2: of mindset back in the Vatican, kind of taking us
Speaker 2: back to the older days when Christians were thrown into
Speaker 2: the lions den eating alive.
Speaker 1: And Cardinal Sarah has been called the Clarence Thomas of
Speaker 1: the papacy, So I don't imagine the Liberals have much
Speaker 1: to do with Clarence Thomas, and that's Cardinal Sarah.
Speaker 3: We'll see what happens JD.
Speaker 1: Vance, who goes to my church by the way, Saint
Speaker 1: Gertrud's and Madeira. We saw the pope that day or
Speaker 1: two before he died, and that some have remarked that
Speaker 1: maybe Donald Trump is going to take over the papacy
Speaker 1: and appoint JD.
Speaker 3: Vance.
Speaker 1: Can we say, can we say that that's a long shot?
Speaker 3: Draft Kings, I.
Speaker 2: Think that's but I think that one's a bit of
Speaker 2: a long shot. But you know, we live in a
Speaker 2: strange times, so you don't have to.
Speaker 1: Be a priest to be you might have to be
Speaker 1: a priest to be the pope, right, anybody could be
Speaker 1: the pope?
Speaker 3: So why why this was?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was actually one of the things that I forget,
Speaker 2: which vasking counsel. They had to tighten this up. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it used to pretty much be just whoever it was
Speaker 2: from the wealthiest noble family in Rome could get their
Speaker 2: offspring elected, male offspring elected to the papers. Here again
Speaker 2: another great reform that the Catholics did back in the
Speaker 2: day to really make sure that we're adhering to the
Speaker 2: actual word of God.
Speaker 1: So we'd bet against it, but you know, otter things
Speaker 1: have happened. But we'll see what occurs. But once again,
Speaker 1: Michael McDonald, there's going to be several days of morning,
Speaker 1: nine days, and then the conclave gets together, called by
Speaker 1: the Secretary of State, so to speak, of the Vatican,
Speaker 1: and maybe in two or three weeks we'll have white
Speaker 1: smoke and not black.
Speaker 3: We'll see what happens.
Speaker 1: And Mychael McDonald of the Catholic League, once again, thank
Speaker 1: you for coming on the Bill Cunningham Show.
Speaker 3: Mike, you're a great American.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Bill, You're a great American as well.
Speaker 3: God bless you.
Speaker 1: Let's continue with more kind of broke up Michael McDonald
Speaker 1: there with Trump taking over the Vatican and apporting jd Vance,
Speaker 1: it's possible, it's possible. Keep Hope alive on news radio
Speaker 1: seven hundred WLW