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<v Speaker 1>My Monday afternoon in the Tri State. Welcome again to

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<v Speaker 1>the Bill Cunningham Show. Reds Baseball kicks off first pitch

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<v Speaker 1>about six forty air time, about five forty tonight. As

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<v Speaker 1>you may know, the Reds beat up on the Baltimore

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<v Speaker 1>Orioles big time. Twenty forty two. That's right, twenty four

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<v Speaker 1>to two. They allowed us safety. That's all they allowed,

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<v Speaker 1>as Baltimore went down hard than out back to five hundred.

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<v Speaker 1>See what happens tonight in Miami. Three in Miami, then

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<v Speaker 1>three in Colorado and away we go. But this morning

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<v Speaker 1>I had the very sad news the passing of Pope.

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<v Speaker 1>The Pope has died and Francis is now in heaven.

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<v Speaker 1>We got almighty we anticipate. And then he took over

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<v Speaker 1>from Benedict who resigned in twenty thirteen. So Francis has

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<v Speaker 1>been the Pope for about twelve years or so. And

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<v Speaker 1>joining you and I now is Michael McDonald of the

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<v Speaker 1>Catholic League in New York City. And Michael McDonald, welcome

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<v Speaker 1>again to the Bill Cunningham Show. And first of all,

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<v Speaker 1>give me your reaction on his passing earlier today.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, Bill Cunningham, great to be with you as always. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>this is really sad news. You know, whenever holy man,

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<v Speaker 2>especially as someone high ranking as Pope Francis, has died,

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<v Speaker 2>as a moment for prayers and reflection, not only for

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<v Speaker 2>the repose of his soul, but also for where the

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<v Speaker 2>church goes from here. And just keep praying that the

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<v Speaker 2>Holy ghost guides the cardinals to make the right decision

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<v Speaker 2>in the coming weeks for the successor.

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<v Speaker 3>I've seen the movie Conclave.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure it's going to go that way, but nonetheless,

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<v Speaker 1>I watched Cardinal Dolan this morning who said that if

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<v Speaker 1>one head of fashion his own demise, it would have

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<v Speaker 1>been the way that this pope went out, Francis by

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<v Speaker 1>having one last lap in the popemobile around Vatican Square

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<v Speaker 1>and saying goodbye. I mean, he looked good enough to live,

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<v Speaker 1>but we don't know the circumstances of death. No autopsies

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<v Speaker 1>are ever performs, so we anticipate it was a respiratory failure.

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<v Speaker 3>Give me the legacy.

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<v Speaker 1>Looking back, the last thirty or forty years had Jeohn

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<v Speaker 1>Paul the Second, with John Paul the First who was

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<v Speaker 1>in office about a month, and John Paul the Second.

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<v Speaker 1>Then it went to Benedict the German. And this was

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<v Speaker 1>historical because Berglio from Rendzsaurus was perceived as a liberal.

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<v Speaker 1>He was perceived they're going to change things, and he

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<v Speaker 1>put his own imprint on the papacy. Many liberals thought, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>he's going to reprove the same sex marriage, or women

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<v Speaker 1>can be priest, or priest can marry. A lot of

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<v Speaker 1>those things did not happen. But I know many conservative

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<v Speaker 1>Catholics who were not happy with his rule, and many

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<v Speaker 1>liberals at times were not happy either. Did he live

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<v Speaker 1>out when he was selected about twelve years ago in

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<v Speaker 1>March at twenty thirteen, And if somebody could have looked

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<v Speaker 1>over the last the next twelve years of his papacy

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<v Speaker 1>in a way, did he anger both sides? Did he

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<v Speaker 1>anger a little bit liberals and conservatives both?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Bill, I think that's actually probably the right

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<v Speaker 2>take here, Pote Francis. For all the glowing reviews he

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<v Speaker 2>got in the media, he did kind of struggle a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit with both sort of wings of the Catholic Church,

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<v Speaker 2>the more liberal, reform minded, very pro Vatican Two. Even

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<v Speaker 2>the people that think Vatican Two didn't go far enough.

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<v Speaker 2>They wanted to see obviously wanted to see more out

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<v Speaker 2>of Pope Francis's tenure in the chair of Saint Peter.

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<v Speaker 2>And then again on the more traditional side of things,

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<v Speaker 2>he was not the most vocal champion of traditional morals.

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<v Speaker 2>He pretty much just canceled the Latin mass across the church,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of seemed to be butting heads a lot with

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<v Speaker 2>the American cardinals, the American bishops, and some of he had,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, again getting into the weeds a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>on some of these reforms. Definitely did try to centralize

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<v Speaker 2>power in himself and the Vatican really trying to move

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<v Speaker 2>the ball, but the institution of the Church itself, it

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<v Speaker 2>just kind of seemed to be a bit of a

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<v Speaker 2>bridge too far to get a lot of these more

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<v Speaker 2>reformist goals initiated. So yeah, it does sort of seem

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<v Speaker 2>to be a bit of a checkered past. Probably didn't

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<v Speaker 2>do enough from one side of the equation, probably did

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<v Speaker 2>too much from the other side, but sort of left

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<v Speaker 2>things somewhere in the middle, and now the Vatican's going

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<v Speaker 2>to have to pick up the pieces and try and

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<v Speaker 2>figure out which direction are we going to continue in

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<v Speaker 2>sort of the mold of Francis and try and move

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<v Speaker 2>things more in the direction of reform, or are we

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<v Speaker 2>going to go with someone like Saint John Paul, the

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<v Speaker 2>second Pope Benedict the sixteenth, who were much more of

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<v Speaker 2>the traditionalist school of thought.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no question where we go from here.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a hope by some that he would approve

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<v Speaker 1>a priest to marry, which isn't a new concept, as

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<v Speaker 1>Tony Bender knows, for the first one thousand years of

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<v Speaker 1>our existence. But priest did marry and so that wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>have been a big deal. But women as priest that

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<v Speaker 1>would be a much different situation. He also reached out

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<v Speaker 1>to gay individuals who said that you are part of

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<v Speaker 1>this church, which was a concern to some. He did

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<v Speaker 1>not get into the transgender debate much about males and females,

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<v Speaker 1>but just on the idea that priest can marry. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you tell us why that would not be so revolutionary?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, as you pointed out that that was

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<v Speaker 2>a reform in the Middle Ages to put a stop

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<v Speaker 2>to that, and at the time, the reasoning was that

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<v Speaker 2>the church was losing control of the parishes themselves. The

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<v Speaker 2>families were taking control of them and leaving it to

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<v Speaker 2>their sons to continue running the church. So yeah, personally,

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<v Speaker 2>I think that was probably the right thing to do

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<v Speaker 2>at the time and probably something we should keep on

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<v Speaker 2>the books for now. But just a real quick bill

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<v Speaker 2>on the subject of transgenderismo. Francis actually was a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit more vocal on the US at times, very very confusing,

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<v Speaker 2>because the only stories that you really see about Pope

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<v Speaker 2>Francis and the transgender question was he had a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of them over for dinner one night or breakfast in

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<v Speaker 2>the Vatican, whatever it was. But in the past he's

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<v Speaker 2>called it demonic, he has called the transgenderism a form

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<v Speaker 2>of ideological colonization, and he has been a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>more forced wellness. Just the left wing media was doing

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<v Speaker 2>a lot to prop up their man and try and

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<v Speaker 2>present him as the loving guy that was just really

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<v Speaker 2>caring about poor people and was worried about climate change.

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<v Speaker 2>But there are some things that traditionalists would actually appreciate

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<v Speaker 2>about Pope Francis. But again, he was very prone to

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<v Speaker 2>speaking off the cuff, very prone to just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>suffering from jet lag, getting on the Vatican plane and

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<v Speaker 2>saying and here's how I really feel about things, and

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<v Speaker 2>not actually thinking through everything, which obviously created a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of headaches for people working in the church.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, one thing I've noticed sixty minutes even to

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<v Speaker 1>the story on this about a year ago, the renaissance

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<v Speaker 1>of Christianity, especially among the young. And they return to

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<v Speaker 1>shall I say to the faith and that young people

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<v Speaker 1>in the last election, this is certainly probably Trump's behavior

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<v Speaker 1>is not the Pope's a favorite. But nonetheless there was

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<v Speaker 1>a renaissance of the young turning toward more conservative values,

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<v Speaker 1>which is why Trump was elected president. And now there's

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<v Speaker 1>a renaissance of Christianity among colleges. There was this plaintive

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<v Speaker 1>crime in Kentucky, Missouri elsewhere that colleges have a large

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<v Speaker 1>group of practicing evangelistic Christians and or Roman Catholics, which

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't seen before. I go to a little Catholic

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<v Speaker 1>church here in Cincinnati called Saint Gertrude's and an Easter vigil.

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<v Speaker 1>Penny and I had to get there at eight thirty

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<v Speaker 1>to get a seat, and the proceedings to not begin

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<v Speaker 1>to after nine pm Saturday night, and we were there

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<v Speaker 1>until midnight, three hours, and there was young and old,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was just a fabulous service put on by

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<v Speaker 1>the Dominicans. It was wonderful, and I spoke to a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of the priests thereafter. It was late, it was

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<v Speaker 1>early in the morning in fact, But nonetheless there's a

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<v Speaker 1>sense that Christian and Catholic schools are doing quite well.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you sense some the Catholic Lake in New York City,

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<v Speaker 1>Mike McDonald, a return to traditional values that we didn't

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<v Speaker 1>think would happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know what, And there is a very interesting

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<v Speaker 2>point on that. It does seem to be particularly the

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<v Speaker 2>within the Catholic Church, the more traditional minded orders of nuns,

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<v Speaker 2>the brothers, parishes, dioceses, they seem to be the ones

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<v Speaker 2>that are doing the best in terms of preserving the

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<v Speaker 2>faith and bringing in new people, growing the community. We

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<v Speaker 2>actually did a report on this on Catholic League dot

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<v Speaker 2>org probably about two years ago, comparing the Church in

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<v Speaker 2>Germany and the Church in Nigeria. Church in Germany obviously

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<v Speaker 2>very rich, richest diocese in the world. Church in Nigeria

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<v Speaker 2>very poor. They're they're constantly being attacked by Muslim extremists,

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<v Speaker 2>very hard times, but the Church in Nigeria is flourishing.

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<v Speaker 2>The Church in Germany is dying off, and the Nigerians

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<v Speaker 2>are very quick to hold two traditional values, whereas the

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<v Speaker 2>Germans are you ready to jettisen in them for the

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<v Speaker 2>next new thing. So that does seem to be a trend.

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<v Speaker 2>And even in the Christian community more broadly, even though

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<v Speaker 2>within the evangelical circles, the more traditionally minded evangelical pastors,

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<v Speaker 2>their churches are the ones that are growing that they

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<v Speaker 2>are actually the ones with the young families in them.

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<v Speaker 2>Whereas you look at the mainline Protestants like the Episcopalians,

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<v Speaker 2>you got a bunch of white haired people that are

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just sitting in God's waiting room. The churches

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<v Speaker 2>are slowly dying, very very sad deaths, and so there

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<v Speaker 2>is something to this. And you know, the return of

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<v Speaker 2>Trump to the White House definitely that more traditional mind

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<v Speaker 2>is attitude, particularly young people reverting to their faith going

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<v Speaker 2>back in greater numbers. This is definitely going to have

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<v Speaker 2>a massive impact on society moving forward. It's unfortunate that

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<v Speaker 2>Pope Francis was kind of the urch nemesis within the

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<v Speaker 2>Catholic Church anyway of the more traditional stuff. You who's

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<v Speaker 2>vehemently opposed to Latin Mass and things of that nature.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of these things kind of seem to

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<v Speaker 2>happen in spite of Pope Francis's leadership.

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<v Speaker 1>And one thing is next well, one thing in the

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<v Speaker 1>media there is the obliteration of Christianity and Catholics buried alive, tortured.

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<v Speaker 1>The Muslim attacks on Catholics happening all over Africa is

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<v Speaker 1>not well reported. You've seen some of the videos. I've

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<v Speaker 1>seen some of the videos. People are being killed because

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<v Speaker 1>of their faith. That would never happen in Germany. It

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<v Speaker 1>would never happen in France. And in fact, most of

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<v Speaker 1>the churches and cathedrals in France are like tourist attractions.

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<v Speaker 1>They're not real churches, even Notre Dame Cathedral as a

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<v Speaker 1>tourist attraction because the practice is almost non existent. Now, lastly,

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<v Speaker 1>before I let you go, Mike McDonald of the Catholic League,

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<v Speaker 1>who's the next Pope? I saw the movie Conclave and

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<v Speaker 1>they selected someone that, shall we say, an amorphi dite

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<v Speaker 1>or something like that from Afghanistan?

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<v Speaker 3>Do you see that happening?

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<v Speaker 1>That We're going to have some conclave in about two

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<v Speaker 1>weeks and there's going to be two hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 1>two cardinals, but only one hundred and thirty eight or

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<v Speaker 1>electors one hundred and thirty eight or so, they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to be in the Sistine Chapel, And what's the early

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<v Speaker 1>pick for the pope h.

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<v Speaker 2>S bill your guests is as good as mine, just

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<v Speaker 2>looking around at how it went last time with the

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<v Speaker 2>election of Pope Francis. Even Patty Power, the famous gambling website,

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't even give outs on They didn't give odds

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<v Speaker 2>on Fancas. As we know from writing the elections, typically

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<v Speaker 2>the gamblers tend to predict the outcome much more accurately

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<v Speaker 2>than the pollsters do, and so they couldn't get it.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is really down to the guidance of the

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<v Speaker 2>Holy Ghost here. Looking at even last time, just looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the headlines, I found one mention of Pope Francis

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<v Speaker 2>Cardinal Bogoglio in anything, and I think it was the

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<v Speaker 2>Guardian said, you know, he came in second to Pope

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<v Speaker 2>Benedict the sixteenth, so he's probably not going to do

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<v Speaker 2>anything in this time, Clay. But next thing, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he's the elected guy. But yes, I'm fairly certain that

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<v Speaker 2>it's not going to have a surprise twist at the

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<v Speaker 2>ending with some hermaphrodite getting elected and like they did,

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<v Speaker 2>in Hollywood and now that that was just a bizarre

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<v Speaker 2>They just were ripping on us.

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<v Speaker 3>Bizarre.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm watching this, I'm thinking the political training at Satura.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, the websites are out with some of the

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<v Speaker 1>names being mentioned. There's no chance I would assume a

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<v Speaker 1>Cardinal Dolwan getting the gig.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that correct?

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<v Speaker 2>You know? I don't think so. I mean, most people

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<v Speaker 2>don't know this, but at the age of seventy five,

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<v Speaker 2>the bishops are supposed to send in their letter of resignation,

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<v Speaker 2>and Cardinal Dolan just turned seventy five in February, so

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<v Speaker 2>it's probably probably a little too old, which is unfortunately.

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<v Speaker 2>He did a lot of good things here in New

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<v Speaker 2>York and we're lucky that we still have him. Hopefully

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<v Speaker 2>we keep him a little bit longer, but it would

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<v Speaker 2>be great to get an American hope in there, but

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<v Speaker 2>probably I don't think it's in the cards this time.

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<v Speaker 1>The media likes Cardinal or Robert Sarah. He's seventy nine

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<v Speaker 1>years old, is a former Vatican official from Guinea. He's

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<v Speaker 1>an African, he's black, and that's the favorite of the

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<v Speaker 1>mainstream media. And if it's someone other than Italian or European.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be a big surprise.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, that'd be very interesting, and it is

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<v Speaker 2>kind of odd to see Sarah's name getting floating around that.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he is older than Dolwan, and I know

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<v Speaker 2>that is something that they're going to be taken into consideration.

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<v Speaker 2>But he's also very strong on the social issues, very

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<v Speaker 2>forceful on the moral teachings of the church. So definitely

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<v Speaker 2>not some that the mainstream media would like. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>they'll probably do the same thing, downplay that as much

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<v Speaker 2>as possible anytime that Pope Francis. I mean, we can't

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<v Speaker 2>even say. Some of the things that Pope Francis said

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<v Speaker 2>about homosexuals in the church on radio, he would rip

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<v Speaker 2>into them, but you would never hear a word about

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<v Speaker 2>that in the mainstream media because he you know, he

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<v Speaker 2>was there to fight global warming and do nice outreach

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<v Speaker 2>to the homosexuals, and he really cared about poor people.

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<v Speaker 2>Never Mind, he never said anything about moral teaching, and

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<v Speaker 2>he did, to his credit, he did say some things

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<v Speaker 2>a little convoluted, could have been a little bit clear,

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit more forceful, But you know, the media

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<v Speaker 2>just completely ignored those issues because they had a narrative

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<v Speaker 2>that needed protecting at all costs, and unfortunately some of

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<v Speaker 2>the good things that Pope Francis did kind of did

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<v Speaker 2>get lost in that narrative. We'll see they'll probably try

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<v Speaker 2>and do the same thing with Sarah, but he's actually

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<v Speaker 2>much more of a traditional mindset. He is one of

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<v Speaker 2>the great ap African prelates, and it's good the cardinals

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<v Speaker 2>should give a lot of credence to the great things

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<v Speaker 2>that the Church in Africa has done. As you were

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<v Speaker 2>mentioning that they're besieged by Islamic extremists and yet somehow

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<v Speaker 2>their communities are still flourishing when martyrdom is generally the

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<v Speaker 2>price that people do have to pay to be a

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<v Speaker 2>Christian in Africa, So that's they're doing the Lord's work

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<v Speaker 2>there and maybe we do need someone with that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of mindset back in the Vatican, kind of taking us

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<v Speaker 2>back to the older days when Christians were thrown into

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<v Speaker 2>the lions den eating alive.

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<v Speaker 1>And Cardinal Sarah has been called the Clarence Thomas of

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<v Speaker 1>the papacy, So I don't imagine the Liberals have much

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<v Speaker 1>to do with Clarence Thomas, and that's Cardinal Sarah.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll see what happens JD.

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<v Speaker 1>Vance, who goes to my church by the way, Saint

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<v Speaker 1>Gertrud's and Madeira. We saw the pope that day or

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<v Speaker 1>two before he died, and that some have remarked that

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<v Speaker 1>maybe Donald Trump is going to take over the papacy

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<v Speaker 1>and appoint JD.

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<v Speaker 3>Vance.

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<v Speaker 1>Can we say, can we say that that's a long shot?

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<v Speaker 3>Draft Kings, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Think that's but I think that one's a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>a long shot. But you know, we live in a

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<v Speaker 2>strange times, so you don't have to.

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<v Speaker 1>Be a priest to be you might have to be

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<v Speaker 1>a priest to be the pope, right, anybody could be

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<v Speaker 1>the pope?

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<v Speaker 3>So why why this was?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this was actually one of the things that I forget,

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<v Speaker 2>which vasking counsel. They had to tighten this up. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it used to pretty much be just whoever it was

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<v Speaker 2>from the wealthiest noble family in Rome could get their

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<v Speaker 2>offspring elected, male offspring elected to the papers. Here again

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<v Speaker 2>another great reform that the Catholics did back in the

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<v Speaker 2>day to really make sure that we're adhering to the

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<v Speaker 2>actual word of God.

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<v Speaker 1>So we'd bet against it, but you know, otter things

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<v Speaker 1>have happened. But we'll see what occurs. But once again,

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<v Speaker 1>Michael McDonald, there's going to be several days of morning,

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<v Speaker 1>nine days, and then the conclave gets together, called by

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<v Speaker 1>the Secretary of State, so to speak, of the Vatican,

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe in two or three weeks we'll have white

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<v Speaker 1>smoke and not black.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll see what happens.

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<v Speaker 1>And Mychael McDonald of the Catholic League, once again, thank

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<v Speaker 1>you for coming on the Bill Cunningham Show.

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<v Speaker 3>Mike, you're a great American.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thank you, Bill, You're a great American as well.

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<v Speaker 3>God bless you.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's continue with more kind of broke up Michael McDonald

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<v Speaker 1>there with Trump taking over the Vatican and apporting jd Vance,

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<v Speaker 1>it's possible, it's possible. Keep Hope alive on news radio

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<v Speaker 1>seven hundred WLW