Speaker 1: The following podcast. Please grab maarial.
Speaker 2: Listener. This question is that.
Speaker 1: Donald Patreon? Are you started?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're started. What's up guys?
Speaker 1: O Kate account me now for that three two one go?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you're like, what are we talking about?
Speaker 1: I'm trying to listen stuff.
Speaker 2: And then you said we're just gonna wing it and
Speaker 2: start it, and then I hit record and you're like
Speaker 2: talking Patreon and then.
Speaker 1: Here we are, Well, excuse me, I'm Nicole, I'm Ben.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wick and.
Speaker 2: Graham True Crime Podcast. What's up, guys?
Speaker 1: How's it going?
Speaker 2: It's going, It's going pretty good.
Speaker 1: So good.
Speaker 2: We are work clearly going to be talking patreons patrons
Speaker 2: today and mimosas was.
Speaker 1: I was going to talk about that to grab your Moses?
Speaker 2: Yeah, where do we leave off.
Speaker 1: For the patrons at Christine Scott.
Speaker 2: Christine Scott was our last one that we thanked. Christine Scott,
Speaker 2: you're getting thanked again and thank you much for being
Speaker 2: an amazing Patreon. And of course we've got Echo Yama
Speaker 2: Lee's frets. I really hope I said your name right.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry if I didn't. And Jessica Bird they all
Speaker 2: signed up for Patreon this week. So you guys are amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for everyone over on Patreon. You
Speaker 2: guys really help us keep this going, so thank you
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we literally think you guys are all freaking awesome.
Speaker 2: Legit, that's why they got exclusive March right.
Speaker 1: So and they'll get more of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they will. You actually have some socks you wanted
Speaker 2: to do a giveaway?
Speaker 1: Well no, I have some Jacko's stuff actually that I
Speaker 1: want to give away and I just haven't done that yet.
Speaker 2: You probably should, but I will.
Speaker 1: I'll get on that, do it, you know, with my
Speaker 1: oodles of free time, I'll get right on that.
Speaker 2: Doodles and noodles.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Oh, speaking of the merch and giveaway and stuff, I
Speaker 2: was thinking we should come up with a new design
Speaker 2: for Wicked and Grim.
Speaker 1: Soon, another one, another one?
Speaker 2: Well, I think every once in a while, and you know,
Speaker 2: to come up with a new design or too. You
Speaker 2: know the way we go.
Speaker 1: Well, you enjoy doing it, so it do make sense.
Speaker 2: I like doing the artsy stuff, so why not. So
Speaker 2: what we want you guys to do? Head over to
Speaker 2: our Instagram or a Facebook or email or wherever you
Speaker 2: want to get a hold of us. And tell us
Speaker 2: what you would like to see fro merch. Maybe we'll
Speaker 2: even do a post so you guys can comment and
Speaker 2: let us know. So, so, yeah, tell us what you
Speaker 2: want to see. I know some people want to see
Speaker 2: a few particular things, like you're nasty.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're nasty. That's a good one. I actually
Speaker 1: want to see that too.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe we'll have to do that in this round,
Speaker 2: but we'll see what everyone says.
Speaker 1: So I'm so just distracted by the smell of farts.
Speaker 1: Well because I'm right by the dogs and they're disgusting.
Speaker 1: They're nasty, and so this is gonna be fun.
Speaker 2: I can't put all the blame on them. I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna lie. I might have broke wind once or twice.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this tiny home living thing, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm just living the life.
Speaker 2: There's not much ventilation. No, it's you trapped.
Speaker 1: And it's quite funny. So part we're on, Part two,
Speaker 1: Part two, Part two, And I ended in kind of
Speaker 1: a shitty spot for y'all last time, and I got
Speaker 1: some flak.
Speaker 2: But it was epic.
Speaker 1: But to my defense, is that not like how every
Speaker 1: TV drama ends pretty much making you want more? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm just starting to be cool, so like, don't
Speaker 1: be all at me.
Speaker 2: It was well played.
Speaker 1: I think you're very well played at job. I deserve
Speaker 1: a pat on the back, not like flak.
Speaker 2: I'll i'd patch you. What's you on the other end
Speaker 2: of the table and behind a microphone?
Speaker 1: No, but actually I thought i'd get more flack than
Speaker 1: I did, So thank you. It was fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they got you back. They got you back.
Speaker 1: They do they do. Okay, so yeah, are we ready
Speaker 1: to start part two?
Speaker 2: We're just diving right in.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Well yeah, I think before you got
Speaker 1: in hand, let's get wondering what's going on here? But
Speaker 1: let's do this because I still think that this is
Speaker 1: just not a widely out their case, which is so wild.
Speaker 2: Because it's not a widely out their case, it's.
Speaker 1: Nuts not that is not more known and just out
Speaker 1: there everywhere.
Speaker 2: Okay, can you give us a quick wrap up, like
Speaker 2: a ten second elevator pitch on what last episode entailed?
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm going to do that. Oh okay, Okay, So
Speaker 1: we were talking about Dennis Nilsen and so he had
Speaker 1: just basically had turned his fantasy into a reality. He
Speaker 1: had just murdered fourteen year old Stephen Holmes, his fantasy
Speaker 1: being basically like necrophilia. I guess, yes, is what you
Speaker 1: call it, but I just hate saying that it's.
Speaker 2: But that gross word for a very gross definition.
Speaker 1: And up to that point of Stephen, he really was
Speaker 1: like using his own body to satisfy those fantasies, which
Speaker 1: is okay, we were okay with that, and then it
Speaker 1: just crossed the line.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean personally, I'm not okay with him. I'm
Speaker 2: not okay with the things he was doing because it's
Speaker 2: just weird for me personally.
Speaker 1: It makes you uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't make me uncomfortable. It would make
Speaker 2: me uncomfortable if I were doing it. It's not for me,
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to pass judgment on someone doing
Speaker 2: it to.
Speaker 1: Teach their own But exactly, if I came home and
Speaker 1: you had your body covered in.
Speaker 2: Uh, talcum powder, baby.
Speaker 1: Powder with blue lips, I might have a couple questions
Speaker 1: looking at myself sexually, and I might have a couple questions.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie, but again, they would be coming
Speaker 1: out to each their own. But yeah, at that point,
Speaker 1: he was not doing any harm, but he crossed the
Speaker 1: fucking line. And now he's doing harm and now you
Speaker 1: get to hurt hear about this mole phul.
Speaker 2: And now it's not fucking okay.
Speaker 1: Okay, So where the heck was it? Oh? Yes, and
Speaker 1: he had left, Oh yeah, I am right here. He
Speaker 1: had left, got it, even Holmes, He had left him
Speaker 1: under his floorboards.
Speaker 2: Right, looked like thirty days or something.
Speaker 1: No, dude, it was way more. Which he would remain
Speaker 1: under those floorboards until August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, which
Speaker 1: was basically like eight months.
Speaker 2: That's what it was. Yep, Like whoa, yeah, I remember
Speaker 2: my mind being fucking blown because I thought it was
Speaker 2: something like a week or up to thirty days or something.
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, eight months. That's that's.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like it's this is a nasty story. Like honestly,
Speaker 1: if you guys are having a snack right now, maybe
Speaker 1: just finish that.
Speaker 2: And if it's beef jerky, just oh oh.
Speaker 1: Man, Okay, here we go. Okay. So here are some
Speaker 1: of Dennis's words in response to his first victim. Okay,
Speaker 1: I eased him into his new bed beneath the floorboards.
Speaker 1: A week later. I wondered whether his body had changed
Speaker 1: at all. Or had started to decompose. I disinsurged him
Speaker 1: and pulled the dirt stained youth up onto the floor.
Speaker 1: His skin was very dirty. I stripped myself naked and
Speaker 1: carried him into the bathroom and washed the body. There
Speaker 1: was particularly no discoloration, and his skin was pale white.
Speaker 1: His limbs were more relaxed than when I had put
Speaker 1: him down there. Oh wow, Yeah, Like the stripped naked
Speaker 1: part is just kind of like, okay, okay.
Speaker 2: He okay, I mean, I'm trying to find a silver
Speaker 2: lining here.
Speaker 1: There's no silver line.
Speaker 2: At least he was being careful with his remains, is
Speaker 2: the only thing I can think of. But no, it's
Speaker 2: not any kind way. It's in a very disturbing way.
Speaker 1: Disturbing. So in August eleven, Dennis would dispose of Stephen's
Speaker 1: body in a bonfire in the garden he had previously
Speaker 1: negotiated with the landlords to be exclusively his I'm not
Speaker 1: entirely sure why it took Dennis this long disposed of
Speaker 1: Stephen's body, but it did, which brings us to his
Speaker 1: next victim, Andrew Hope. And this next victim wouldn't be
Speaker 1: until October of nineteen seventy nine. So Steven was murdered
Speaker 1: on December thirtieth, nineteen seventy eight, so it was quite
Speaker 1: some time really before he would strike again, and some
Speaker 1: light with this victim with Andrew, he would survive.
Speaker 2: Oh really.
Speaker 1: So on October eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, Dennis would meet Andrew,
Speaker 1: a local student from Hong Kong. Meeting him is our dog,
Speaker 1: just like ground.
Speaker 2: I think she's either snoring or she's upset and like
Speaker 2: growling at something or someone. But I just hear it constantly.
Speaker 1: I know me too. It's kind of distracting because I'm like,
Speaker 1: what is going on back there?
Speaker 2: Do you want to pause it and take care of her?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 2: Okay, she's a princess, peach. She needs our attention one
Speaker 2: sec Holy shit, Okay, So she's she's just snarling away
Speaker 2: overund cold.
Speaker 1: I was like, thought something was upsetting her, but holy gosh, okay,
Speaker 1: so distracting here with these animals, sorry, guys.
Speaker 2: And if you hear some snoring in the background.
Speaker 1: She's getting old. There's and there's nowhere for them to
Speaker 1: go in here. Okay. So we had left off Andrew,
Speaker 1: just a local student from Hong Kong, and Dennis was
Speaker 1: meeting him or not, or he met him at a
Speaker 1: Saint Martin's Lane pub. He would lure Andrew back to
Speaker 1: his flat with the promise of sex like don't go now.
Speaker 1: Dennis would attempt to strangle Andrew, but somehow he managed
Speaker 1: to escape and get out of Dennis's home. He we
Speaker 1: could say that Andrew was the badass of the day,
Speaker 1: being that he actually was able to escape this moful
Speaker 1: But he's a bit of a disappointment afterwards.
Speaker 2: Because he doesn't do anything when he.
Speaker 1: Does report the incident to police, causing Dennis to be questioned,
Speaker 1: but in the end decides not to press charges. Fuck,
Speaker 1: I'm like nobody, But then remember that time, I don't know,
Speaker 1: you had to be careful, right because being gay was
Speaker 1: illegal and stuff, right, So true, yeah, but I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, if he'd press charges and stuff like
Speaker 1: this could have maybe saved people.
Speaker 2: But hindsight is twenty twenty, right, I don't give a shit.
Speaker 1: Well, all right, clearly they get to save people.
Speaker 2: It could have, and it would have been awesome if
Speaker 2: he did continue those charges, But like you said, he's
Speaker 2: putting himself in danger if you were to press charges. Now,
Speaker 2: he's going to be publicly gay.
Speaker 1: And sometimes you have to think about yourself. I suppose
Speaker 1: I get it. I get it.
Speaker 2: For example, maybe it wasn't going to be that he's
Speaker 2: going to be reprimanded legally for being homosexual or anything
Speaker 2: like that. But maybe it's just strictly his parents would
Speaker 2: find out. His family would find out, and he didn't want.
Speaker 1: That, and he was keeping it a secret, right or something.
Speaker 2: So it's such a shame that people have to hide
Speaker 2: themselves like that or had to. Not that they still don't,
Speaker 2: but more so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that they necessarily have to do anymore,
Speaker 1: but I mean I understand it's probably still hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean there are personal circumstances where people
Speaker 2: do still.
Speaker 1: Have to hide themselves. But yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2: Sad and I'm sure or it would have been at
Speaker 2: least something like that on his mind.
Speaker 1: So yes, Ben, I get it. What well, I was
Speaker 1: just like this guy, shit, you need to come forward.
Speaker 1: But no, I get it. I get it.
Speaker 2: It would have been nice, but I'm sure there's a reason, you.
Speaker 1: Know, and who knows how long it would have even
Speaker 1: put Dennis in jail if it did or whatever. Right,
Speaker 1: So that it might not have even done anything right.
Speaker 2: And I mean it could have been just his word
Speaker 2: against his right, like yeah, who used to say probably
Speaker 2: nothing could have even potentially even happened of.
Speaker 1: It, And Dennis might have been a more like rippertal
Speaker 1: person too, and yeah, so who knows. Okay, So two
Speaker 1: months later Dennis was at it again. December third, nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy nine was the date, and the next victim would
Speaker 1: not be so lucky. This time it would be twenty
Speaker 1: three year old Canadian student Oh, who was on a
Speaker 1: tour of England visiting relatives. His name was Kenneth Oakenden.
Speaker 1: I think that's how you say his last name, oaken
Speaker 1: Den Oakenden, something like that.
Speaker 2: That's a badass name.
Speaker 1: You like it?
Speaker 2: I did, especially because I was just watching the Hobbit
Speaker 2: movie today with Thorin Oakenshield.
Speaker 1: Oh Oakenden, I don't know. His name's Kenneth.
Speaker 2: It's a badass name. I like it.
Speaker 1: So Dennis encountered Kenneth once again at a local pub
Speaker 1: we Hear, where he learned Kenneth was a tourist and
Speaker 1: offered to show him around London. They would spend the
Speaker 1: afternoon together sight seeing and drinking when it started to
Speaker 1: get dark, and Dennis invited Kenneth back to his health
Speaker 1: for drinks and dinner, but it would not last long.
Speaker 1: Dennis was not able to recall the exact moment he
Speaker 1: strangled Kenneth, but as Kenneth was listening to music and
Speaker 1: wearing headphones, Dennis took the headphone chord, dragging Kenneth across
Speaker 1: the floor with the chord wrapped around his neck and
Speaker 1: he strangled him. Fuck, like, that's I think a terrible
Speaker 1: time to just slip. You're into your music, yeah, and
Speaker 1: then oh. He then poured himself a drink and continued
Speaker 1: like listening to the music on the headphones fuck, as
Speaker 1: he did with Stephen. Dennis then bade Kenneth before placing
Speaker 1: him in his bed to sleep beside him for the night.
Speaker 2: That was some Silence of the Lambs shit right there?
Speaker 2: Holy fuck?
Speaker 1: What do you mean really? I don't think I've watched that?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we are watching Silence of the Lambs
Speaker 2: this weekend? What the fuck?
Speaker 1: I have other shit on my list to watch.
Speaker 2: How have you never seen? How am I married to you?
Speaker 1: I don't know. Ask yourself that I'm pretty awesome, though, I.
Speaker 2: Mean you are, but you've never seen silence of the Lambs,
Speaker 2: I don't think, so, wow, we've got to change that.
Speaker 1: Okay, why does someone get stranged him in there with
Speaker 1: headphone cord?
Speaker 2: Well no, but there's the Buffalo Bill, the main serial
Speaker 2: killer in it. He's very much so a creeper. He
Speaker 2: goes for women with soft, supple skin sort of thing
Speaker 2: because he wants to basically make a skin suit because
Speaker 2: he wants to be a woman. But he's a man, right,
Speaker 2: And it's kind.
Speaker 1: Of that's not a lotion thing in the well, yes.
Speaker 2: It puts a lotion on its skin or else it
Speaker 2: gets the hose again.
Speaker 1: Okay, well I've heard that.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, that's that's from this look at me. So
Speaker 2: and he's got like in his house, he's got like
Speaker 2: a music thing that he does and he's dancing and stuff.
Speaker 2: So just like the whole creepy vibe with like the
Speaker 2: music and the okay, being sensual with like the dead
Speaker 2: is just full.
Speaker 1: He premeditated that in a way, because I don't think
Speaker 1: that Kenneth was listening to the records with headphones prior
Speaker 1: to But then Dennis was like, here, put these on.
Speaker 1: This is like my favorite record like really listen and
Speaker 1: then like boom done.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The following day, Dennis would buy a Polaroid camera to
Speaker 1: capture the beauty of Kenneth's perfect and beautiful body. He
Speaker 1: laid his corpse in suggestive poses to capture on film,
Speaker 1: before finally laying beside him as he watched TV for
Speaker 1: several hours.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Kenneth would be stored under the floorboards as Stephen was,
Speaker 1: but on many occasions, Stephen would actually go about disturbing
Speaker 1: Kenni's corpse. He would move his body around his home
Speaker 1: to bath him, watch television with and have conversations with
Speaker 1: as though he was still there and listening.
Speaker 2: That's a visual ala really disturbing it.
Speaker 1: It's super disturbing. But as Kenneth's body would begin to
Speaker 1: show signs of rot, he would be retired beneath the
Speaker 1: floorboards and Dennis would once again have to face his
Speaker 1: inevitable loneliness. That is until Martin Duffy would enter his life.
Speaker 1: Un Martin Duffy. Duffy was a sixteen year old gay
Speaker 1: teenager from Birkenhead, England.
Speaker 2: He keeps praying on like the young.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he likes him really young, like really.
Speaker 2: Young, which which is even more of a shame, not
Speaker 2: necessarily strictly because of their age, but because that they're
Speaker 2: a lot more susceptible to like these older men who
Speaker 2: are kind of in the gay world atmosphere or whatever,
Speaker 2: who kind of know like the way around the bars
Speaker 2: and stuff, where these new kids are basically just trying
Speaker 2: to learn and explore themselves. Right.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and Martin's a runaway, so he did. He
Speaker 1: was attracted to like homeless people, runaways, and like sex workers,
Speaker 1: so he would kind of target people that may not
Speaker 1: be noticed that they're missing. Yeah, so yeah, okay, so yeah, Mike,
Speaker 1: I said. Martin had run away from home and hitchhiked
Speaker 1: the four hour distance to London. Dennis would cross paths
Speaker 1: with him on May seventeenth, nineteen eighty at the train station.
Speaker 1: Martin had been away from home for four days at
Speaker 1: this point and was both exhausted and hungry. Dennis offered
Speaker 1: him a hot meal and bed for the evening, which
Speaker 1: Martin greats gratefully accepted, and like, I have trouble when
Speaker 1: people are too nice, Like I think that would almost
Speaker 1: make me like run. But Martin was also like almost
Speaker 1: survival point at that like he needed he had needs.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly, so he.
Speaker 1: Almost probably had to accept that offer.
Speaker 2: Which is in a situation like that, how could you
Speaker 2: not accept it?
Speaker 1: Honestly, I know, but you shouldn't because people are evil.
Speaker 2: People are fucking evil.
Speaker 1: They're evil. Okay, So there is good out there, don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong. There are there are good Okay. I
Speaker 1: think there's more good than evil. I'm going to say
Speaker 1: that because like, majority of people aren't going to murder
Speaker 1: you in your house and when you're in their house.
Speaker 2: Well, I hope, yeah, I would hope. Theoretically speaking, though,
Speaker 2: it's got to be like a perfect balance theoretically because
Speaker 2: I guess if you look at it in not necessarily
Speaker 2: like a biblical term of like heaven hell type evil,
Speaker 2: I'm saying, in like a nature version type of evil.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna put it in this way because this
Speaker 2: is one way that I really understand it, and it's
Speaker 2: a really good analogy for hunting. For example, around here,
Speaker 2: the moose population it goes up and down, so the moose,
Speaker 2: you know, they have offspring in the population increases, and
Speaker 2: with the population of increase, and we're going to use
Speaker 2: moose as the good as their population increases, so does
Speaker 2: the population of wolves, and we're going to use them
Speaker 2: as the bad. So as the moose population grows, the
Speaker 2: wolf population now grows because there's a larger food source.
Speaker 2: So now as the wolves are picking off the moose,
Speaker 2: now their population starts to decrease. And now the wolves
Speaker 2: are losing their food source and they start to starve
Speaker 2: to death, so their population decreases. And now as their
Speaker 2: population decreases, the moose goes up. So it's as constant
Speaker 2: up and down, up and down. And I would like
Speaker 2: to think it's a very similar thing with good deeds
Speaker 2: and bad deeds. If a person sees bad deeds around
Speaker 2: them lots, maybe a lenst tell him to do some
Speaker 2: good and vice versa. Who knows. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just think Dennis is bad. Yeah, I know, I
Speaker 1: get what you're saying. I totally get where you're saying.
Speaker 1: But I also think that humankind has more good than bad,
Speaker 1: is my opinion. I would hope that not every half
Speaker 1: the people are around running around murdering people and stuff.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, I guess it depends on what you Yeah,
Speaker 2: it depends on where you draw that line, because I
Speaker 2: mean throwing a paper napkin on the sidewalk. Is that bad?
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, but maybe on some people that wouldn't be bad.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, don't letter. Okay. So once back at
Speaker 1: Dennis's place, Martin would eat dinner, have a couple drinks
Speaker 1: with Dennis, but then begin to nod off and want
Speaker 1: to head to bed. Falling asleep in Dennis's bed, the team.
Speaker 1: The team would not know what hit him when Dennis would,
Speaker 1: like the others, begin to strangle him as he sat
Speaker 1: on his chest and tighten the twine around his neck
Speaker 1: until he was unconscious. Finishing the job, he dragged Martin's
Speaker 1: body into the kitchen, where he drowned him in the sink. Fuck,
Speaker 1: that's just such an intense way to just finish it,
Speaker 1: because can't you just finish it by strangling them too,
Speaker 1: Or he's just ensuring they're dead. I guess I.
Speaker 2: Think I think it's his failsafe. You see bubbles coming up,
Speaker 2: you can't see necessarily.
Speaker 1: Because there'd be like some instance, relready hold them under
Speaker 1: there for like five minutes, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just making sure, just making sure.
Speaker 1: He would bath Martin's body, which he noted as being
Speaker 1: the youngest looking body he'd ever seen. Along with bathing
Speaker 1: his body, he would also groom his victims, being so young.
Speaker 1: I don't know if Martin in particular would need this,
Speaker 1: but Dennis wanted his props, as he would call them,
Speaker 1: to have smooth, shaved torso to conform to his physical
Speaker 1: idea ideal.
Speaker 2: Fuck, he looks so disgusted. I am just that. Note
Speaker 2: this is the youngest body he's seeing.
Speaker 1: That was just yeah, but he's that he already murdered
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old in this guy sixteen? Oh?
Speaker 2: I know, but just that that cress is gross.
Speaker 1: Gross.
Speaker 2: He's seeking the young looking.
Speaker 1: He likes that. He would also go about applying makeup
Speaker 1: to any obvious blemish on the skin, and the body
Speaker 1: would usually get dressed in socks and underwear. Once Martin's
Speaker 1: body was ready, he'd move him around his home, with
Speaker 1: him sitting him at the kitchen table, has he made dinner?
Speaker 1: And ate dinner, placing him in his bed, the very
Speaker 1: bed he was strangled in, where Dennis would then repeatedly kiss, compliment,
Speaker 1: and caress his dead body.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: He would also masturbate while sitting on Martin's stomach. I
Speaker 1: should mention this. I don't know if anyone's wondering this.
Speaker 1: But along with masturbating, Dennis would also participate a ceranial
Speaker 1: sex I think is how you said inter I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was like, what the fuck is that? I had
Speaker 1: to look it up, which is victims they would basically
Speaker 1: have like sex with their thigh.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 1: So I just can't believe some of the shit that
Speaker 1: I have to research and say on here.
Speaker 2: But that's interesting, okay.
Speaker 1: He would insist that he never actually penetrated his victims,
Speaker 1: apparently freeing their beautiful bodies from the pathetic ritual of
Speaker 1: commonplace sex.
Speaker 2: Interesting because I just assumed that like penetration was occurring.
Speaker 1: No. No, he like was adamant that it was not
Speaker 1: that he would do masturbation, this thigh sex thing. And
Speaker 1: there was some reports but not all of them, say
Speaker 1: like world as well. I mean he's still defiling them,
Speaker 1: oh oh god, yeah, like one hundred percent. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: But then I think he was also like he didn't
Speaker 1: want to. I don't know, I'm going to go there.
Speaker 2: He's still defiling them. He's thinking he's keeping them pure,
Speaker 2: He's not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think he was thinking that they had
Speaker 1: last longer with these means than the other means. Wow, anyway,
Speaker 1: fuck on this the case half Oh my gosh, Like
Speaker 1: it's it's actually because it's like one thing to just
Speaker 1: know that that your victim was murdered, which is horrific,
Speaker 1: but then to just like also this one step further
Speaker 1: of how they were treated after they were murdered and
Speaker 1: they were just like prancing around this dude's like apartment
Speaker 1: and stuff, is just like devastating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they've been murdered and it's not over yet. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we still have to go through more.
Speaker 1: Oh like it's disturbed. It's just really disturbing. Anyway, once
Speaker 1: the body started showing signs of bloat, it went under
Speaker 1: the floorboards straight away. And at this point though Dennis
Speaker 1: was hooked. He's a full born serial killer of course. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He would begin to kill in greater frequency that year alone,
Speaker 1: killing five more victims and attempting one other, with only
Speaker 1: one of those murdered victims ever being able to be identified,
Speaker 1: and that was twenty six year old William Billy Sutherland.
Speaker 1: Billy was originally from Scotland, where he had a girlfriend
Speaker 1: and a child, but as he was looking for work
Speaker 1: in London, he found it to be more difficult than expected,
Speaker 1: and turned to sex work, finding that older men like
Speaker 1: Dennis were especially eager to pay for a night with
Speaker 1: a handsome Scottish man. And that's just how his story
Speaker 1: would end. He crossed paths with Dennis on August twentieth,
Speaker 1: and in the unfortunate story of Billy actually pursuing Dennis,
Speaker 1: he would find himself back at Dennis's house being strangled,
Speaker 1: as the rest of Dennis's victims had shit. Dennis's main
Speaker 1: victim profile was men he believed wouldn't be missed. Like
Speaker 1: Report miss talked about this, all of his victims were
Speaker 1: found at local pubs or on the street, often young
Speaker 1: runaways like Martin, homeless men, or male sex workers. These
Speaker 1: people were also relatively easy to get back to his
Speaker 1: house with the offer of food, alcohol, or a place
Speaker 1: to stay.
Speaker 2: Dennis is a piece of shit. Haven't said it yet.
Speaker 2: He's a piece of shit.
Speaker 1: Super shit, like super super super shit.
Speaker 2: He's got a big s on his chest drawn and ship. Yeah,
Speaker 2: just super shit super ship.
Speaker 1: Okay, And I don't like this nickname, but I felt
Speaker 1: like I should mention it in here. Oh, because some
Speaker 1: people probably have heard that Dennis can be referred to
Speaker 1: as the kindly Killer. I don't know if you've heard this,
Speaker 1: in that he often he often offers to help those
Speaker 1: in need with food or a place to stay, showing kindness,
Speaker 1: though with the intention to kill.
Speaker 2: So it's false kindness.
Speaker 1: Though, yeah, like kindly killer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a way of luring them in with
Speaker 2: kindness and then turning it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I just like hate, I just hate that nickname. Actually,
Speaker 1: I don't love it at all.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, he's not kind that's it's an ironic nickname.
Speaker 1: M hm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have no quarrels with that nickname personally
Speaker 2: because it's it's an ironic name.
Speaker 1: It is ironic. Yeah, but I'm just like, eh, okay,
Speaker 1: So some reports I read, though, I would say he
Speaker 1: didn't intend to kill, Well, fuck that, and was adamant
Speaker 1: that the decision was not made until moments before it
Speaker 1: actually happens. That but being that he would often go
Speaker 1: out looking yeah for victims. In my personal opinion, I
Speaker 1: consider that premeditation and just like the number alone that
Speaker 1: he's done. Yeah, right, Like I just yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: like you're lying, dude, Yeah, oh yeah, no, for sure,
Speaker 1: but for sure, for sure because bodies of some of
Speaker 1: the victims could never be a dentis we're going by
Speaker 1: what Dennis had decided to share or remembers from many
Speaker 1: of these incidents, and there's many victims he remembers very
Speaker 1: little about. But come the end of nineteen eighty, the
Speaker 1: bodies were beginning to accumulate under Dennis's floorboards, which were
Speaker 1: attracting insects and creating some voul odors.
Speaker 2: Oh, I can imagine. I was, I was curious, like
Speaker 2: how much floor space does this guy fucking have?
Speaker 1: Like I honestly couldn't imagine the smells that would be
Speaker 1: coming from there, Like it's just repulsive.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: He would place deodorants underneath the floorboards with the bodies
Speaker 1: and spray what would he spray insecticide? Sorry, twice a day,
Speaker 1: But obviously it didn't get rid of the odor completely
Speaker 1: or the presence of bugs. Like his place was just
Speaker 1: like infested with like flies too, I can imagine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean that's not solving the problem. That's
Speaker 2: a temporary thing for a couple hours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that's why he would do it like numerous
Speaker 1: times a day.
Speaker 2: That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like just disgusting. Which is also like another reason
Speaker 1: why I don't even understand how he got other victims.
Speaker 1: But then they were lots of times drunk and stuff. But
Speaker 1: when you walk in there and just be like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: I gotta get out of here.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean runaways and stuff, right, who've been living
Speaker 2: on the street potentially.
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess. Gosh, that breaks my heart, it does. Okay,
Speaker 1: So Dennis would start dissecting and removing the bodies of
Speaker 1: all his victims since December of nineteen seventy nine, a
Speaker 1: total of six victims.
Speaker 2: Okay, wait, hold on, he would like the people already
Speaker 2: under the floorboards. Yeah, okay, I understand.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, it was kind of like mixed reports. I
Speaker 1: think it's sometimes he would like dissect them of their
Speaker 1: organs and stuff right away, but I don't know if
Speaker 1: he did that initially, so as far as I could tell,
Speaker 1: all have his kills since his first kill of Steven,
Speaker 1: and unlike Stephen's body, which he had left intact when
Speaker 1: he burned it, yeah, the others he did start to
Speaker 1: dissect their remains, so I don't and some I know
Speaker 1: he didn't do right away, so he was like doing
Speaker 1: them when he was about to burn them, and I'm
Speaker 1: assuming this is a way to be more discreet. Like
Speaker 1: he had six bodies, right, so he's like having to
Speaker 1: bring them out to this fire. Like that's a lot
Speaker 1: of things, Like I don't think you could just bring
Speaker 1: six bodies up when you live in public.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think so, I would assume so.
Speaker 1: Okay, but himself recalled how absolutely vile the process of
Speaker 1: this was. He'd have a drink of whiskey to get
Speaker 1: his courage up and grab handfuls of salt to brush
Speaker 1: aside maggots from the remains. Yeah, it sounds right, often vomiting,
Speaker 1: vomiting as he dissected the bodies, but then also masturbating
Speaker 1: as he sat alongside the corpse or corpse as a
Speaker 1: symbolic gesture of saying goodbye to his victims. What yeah,
Speaker 1: what yeah? Yeah? I said it.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: How uncomfortable, How uncomfortable?
Speaker 2: How the fuck kate? What?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? It was like his way of saying goodbye.
Speaker 1: He would masturbate one more time after he dissected, like
Speaker 1: their organs out of their bodies.
Speaker 2: So he's literally having to drink whiskey and hold back
Speaker 2: vomit from what he's.
Speaker 1: Doing oh and vomiting, he's not always holding him back
Speaker 1: his pukan.
Speaker 2: And he's like, I'll just rub one more out here.
Speaker 1: Yeah what, Yeah that happened. The look on your face.
Speaker 2: I am just back baffled by that. Holy shit. Yeah
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, because I'm I'm the type of person where
Speaker 2: I need to understand things. Why is a big thing
Speaker 2: when I'm discussing things, or keep it understand.
Speaker 1: He'd also probably okay, like he did it after he
Speaker 1: had cleaned them up in my opinion, right, so.
Speaker 2: But it's still such a paradox.
Speaker 1: I know. I don't know if you can get in
Speaker 1: the head of some of these people.
Speaker 2: Dude, I don't think Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, because anything he's doing doesn't really like make
Speaker 1: sense to me.
Speaker 2: Well, no, it doesn't make sense to me either.
Speaker 1: But I can even understand to keep them in the
Speaker 1: floor for that long.
Speaker 2: Oh, I agree, But I'm just saying from I can
Speaker 2: understand that someone thinks that way, not that I agree
Speaker 2: or understand it, but I can from things we discuss,
Speaker 2: I can understand that a person could not that they would,
Speaker 2: but could potentially think that. I don't understand how repulsion
Speaker 2: equals ecstasy. I guess those are very contradictory.
Speaker 1: In my mind, it was he was thinking it was
Speaker 1: like a symbolic thing, And I think, who knows how
Speaker 1: much time had passed after he'd done the dissection? Right,
Speaker 1: maybe he like did the dissection, took a little nap,
Speaker 1: had a snack, and then did it Like I don't know,
Speaker 1: No one really knows, right, only he knows Jesus.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that is so fucked up. I feel
Speaker 2: so bad for those victims.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like I just honestly just I feel like
Speaker 1: bad for the family members too. I don't know. That
Speaker 1: would be what I would need to recruit myself, right
Speaker 1: to change my attitude? A nap and snack?
Speaker 2: Okay? Where Nicole food and sleep? She's good from anything?
Speaker 1: Well, do you need a drink? Right?
Speaker 2: I would need a lot more than a drink to
Speaker 2: be in that position and feel better.
Speaker 1: Okay, anyway, let's move on here, can we move on?
Speaker 2: Yes? We can move on? Please, let's do Okay.
Speaker 1: To disguise the smell of burning flesh as he burned
Speaker 1: the remains, Dennis placed a tire on the pile, because
Speaker 1: then people would be smelling burning rubber, right, and once
Speaker 1: everything was done burning, he would use a rake to
Speaker 1: search for recognizable bones, at one point finding an intact skull,
Speaker 1: which he smashed pieces with his rake. Wow, And then
Speaker 1: he would just like rake the garden, like this is
Speaker 1: his garden. Right. Oh, I wasn't going to say anything
Speaker 1: about this, but I'm just throwing it in there. So
Speaker 1: I actually came across an art col where that this
Speaker 1: house has now actually like been sold and like a
Speaker 1: young couple lives in there and stuff, and it's like
Speaker 1: been completely remodeled and redone and like looked beautiful. But
Speaker 1: then like the garden, they're like growing vegetables in and stuff,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, it's just like I don't know
Speaker 1: if I could get past that, but they had totally
Speaker 1: gotten past it and just felt that it was perfect
Speaker 1: and they got like the house at a good price
Speaker 1: and everything.
Speaker 2: Right, I don't know if I could morally grow vegetables
Speaker 2: in there, flowers or something plants maybe, yeah.
Speaker 1: But like something you're eating ain't yeah, because I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: Like the investigators, I'm sure like went like through a
Speaker 1: comb through that garden. Right.
Speaker 2: Oh, they're gonna pull out bones, but they're not gonna
Speaker 2: be able to pull out the soil.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that they would have missed or something.
Speaker 2: Well, just the like the ash. They can't pull out
Speaker 2: ash from dirt. That ash is the minerals and materials
Speaker 2: from your body now leaching into the soil. Yeah, which
Speaker 2: is now leaching into the even if okay, maybe grow
Speaker 2: pumpkins or Halloween or something. I get that.
Speaker 1: Don't consume it, you're consumable. Yeah, I know. I was
Speaker 1: just like, that is beyond interesting that someone could just
Speaker 1: get past that. I'd be curious if like many of
Speaker 1: our listeners could just get past that and just like
Speaker 1: grow their Yeah, I'm curious.
Speaker 2: It'd be some rich soil though, because of the minerals
Speaker 2: from the decomposition and everything.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, where was I here? Okay. The discussing aftermath
Speaker 1: of his disposing his kills, you think many may have
Speaker 1: him thinking that this is not like worth the efforts,
Speaker 1: like after he's now gone through this process of like
Speaker 1: getting rid and disposing like this, this has to be it,
Speaker 1: like he has to be fucking done. But no, but no, no,
Speaker 1: he would strike again. Of course he would strike four
Speaker 1: more times actually while living at Melrose av at this
Speaker 1: one location, one victim being in January, one being in February,
Speaker 1: one being in April, and his final victim being on
Speaker 1: September eighteenth. This final victim at Melrose At, I should say,
Speaker 1: being Malcolm Barlow, and if you've lost count, this would
Speaker 1: be his twelfth victim. Jeez. So in reference to some
Speaker 1: of these, okay, because I didn't really I'm not going
Speaker 1: into much detail because lots of those in there were unidentified.
Speaker 1: So in reference to some of these unidentified victims, Dennis
Speaker 1: would late like, this is sad. Dennis would later reflect
Speaker 1: by saying, end of the day, end of the drink,
Speaker 1: end of a person, floorboards, back carpet replaced, and back
Speaker 1: to work at Delmark Street. What Yeah, that's what he
Speaker 1: wrote in this book.
Speaker 2: Wow, like wow, what an asshole way to disassociate and
Speaker 2: just make these people literally nothing to you.
Speaker 1: And I think it's like crazy that he was able
Speaker 1: to just like continue work during this killing spree. Like
Speaker 1: talk about a double life. He occasionally would call in
Speaker 1: sick if he needed to deal with one of the bodies,
Speaker 1: but it did not seem like it crossed over much,
Speaker 1: which I just cannot comprehend how you could just have
Speaker 1: that terrible of like a life and then just go
Speaker 1: to work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how he can be hon Yeah, because there's I
Speaker 2: don't know if this is a strictly male thing, or
Speaker 2: if females get this, or if any other genders get
Speaker 2: this as well, but this is something that I have
Speaker 2: discussed and know is very real within the male community.
Speaker 2: It's called post nut syndrome. Okay, okay, it's.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, where are we going with this?
Speaker 2: After relieving oneself, wow, uh, you kind of come back
Speaker 2: and snap back to yourself and you're just like, wow,
Speaker 2: did I really just have intercourse with this person? Say,
Speaker 2: for example, like an X, like you all of a
Speaker 2: sudden you regret going back to that ex like fuck,
Speaker 2: Like as soon as you're done on my word, or
Speaker 2: maybe it's really weird porn that you just rub one
Speaker 2: out to. I don't know, but as soon as you
Speaker 2: are done, you're just regretting your choices. I'm surprised he's
Speaker 2: not getting that post not syndrome.
Speaker 1: Hmmm. I'm just trying to think. I mean, we'll go
Speaker 1: into like his thoughts, but after it's done, like it
Speaker 1: is almost when I think he's like really into it, right,
Speaker 1: like the death, and then he now has this companion,
Speaker 1: like a lot of it's just like his companion. So
Speaker 1: he's I don't know, it's just a whole thing for him.
Speaker 1: And then once they raw, like he needs another companion. Yeah,
Speaker 1: does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah? But what I mean by like the post
Speaker 2: not thing is he's not regretting taking the life.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think he is.
Speaker 2: Because he's clearly he apparently, as you said, only thought
Speaker 2: about killing them moments before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I don't agree, in the heat.
Speaker 2: Of, which is very much so like when you're drunken,
Speaker 2: horny and you call your X situation. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 2: in the heat of you're doing the action and then
Speaker 2: you call the X or in his case, kill a
Speaker 2: fucking human being, and then you get off on it.
Speaker 2: And then after you get off, he's not like, fuck,
Speaker 2: I just killed a person.
Speaker 1: I think he might have been like that initially. Some
Speaker 1: reports it did seem like maybe he was like that initially,
Speaker 1: like holy shit, what did I do? Like because the
Speaker 1: first killed there was quite a break before he did again.
Speaker 1: But then he just like, I think the benefits of
Speaker 1: him doing it outweighed everything, gotcha. So Okay, so we
Speaker 1: are going to talk a little bit about Malcolm asked.
Speaker 1: Twenty three year old Malcolm the victim had a different
Speaker 1: story in that Dennis would actually call the ambulance for
Speaker 1: Malcolm after he discovered him slumped against a wall outside
Speaker 1: his home on September seventeenth, nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 2: So sorry, Dennis would call an ambulance from Malcolm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and he thought he was just like a
Speaker 1: fucking superhero for doing this shit. Of course, Malcolm had
Speaker 1: told Dennis the medication he was prescribed for his epilepsy
Speaker 1: had caused his legs to weaken, so Dennis brought him
Speaker 1: inside and called help for him. But when Malcolm was
Speaker 1: released from the hospital the following day, he returned to
Speaker 1: Dennis's flat to thank him for his kindness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the mistake, right fucking there.
Speaker 1: Dennis invited him in, where he fed him a meal
Speaker 1: and drinks until Malcolm fell asleep on Dennis's coach at
Speaker 1: the end of the night. Dennis was not expecting this,
Speaker 1: So this one, I don't think like was premeditated, but
Speaker 1: felt he needed to be rid of Malcolm, and just
Speaker 1: like that, he made the decision to strangle him, storing
Speaker 1: his body beneath the kitchen sink for.
Speaker 2: The morning, felt like he needed to be rid of him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like he had a pest fuck like this dude,
Speaker 1: Like he came back to him right like, don't come
Speaker 1: back here, I guess. Yeah. Now this is the point
Speaker 1: where Dennis would have to prepare to leave Melrose have
Speaker 1: Summer reports say Dennis was issued in a fiction notice
Speaker 1: as neighbors were starting to complain of the smell coming
Speaker 1: from his suite. Other reports say the landlord was wanting
Speaker 1: to do renovations and asked Dennis to leave. But both
Speaker 1: of them really could go hand in hand. They're really in.
Speaker 1: My opinion is no way the neighbors could not smell
Speaker 1: that situation going on in his suite. And I honestly
Speaker 1: gets surprising that even like lasted that long. There no kidding,
Speaker 1: really like he had neighbors and stuff like great. I
Speaker 1: feel like you'd have to be like a hermit for
Speaker 1: able to be doing this.
Speaker 2: I mean, people are oblivious generally and will put up
Speaker 2: with a lot of shit, I.
Speaker 1: Think, but that's oblivious, that's extreme. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm observant and I would know instantly, of
Speaker 1: course you would, okay either way here I might have
Speaker 1: been someone's neighbor. That's like, was a murder or something?
Speaker 2: Right now? Wow?
Speaker 1: Oh no, okay, either way, he would dispose of the
Speaker 1: bodies as he did previously and move into an addict
Speaker 1: flat at twenty three d Cranleigh Gardens on October fifth,
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one. Being that Dennis's new home was an
Speaker 1: attic flat with no access to a garden, one would
Speaker 1: only hope his killing spree would come to an end,
Speaker 1: and it did for about five months until until March
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, when Dennis would meet twenty three year
Speaker 1: old John Howlett while drinking in a nearby pub. John
Speaker 1: was lured to Dennis's new suite on the promise of
Speaker 1: a continuing good time and more booze, and that's what happened.
Speaker 1: They continued to drink and watch a movie. This is
Speaker 1: when John walked into Dennis's front room, where his bed
Speaker 1: was located, and fell asleep. One hour later, Dennis attempted
Speaker 1: to wake John but was unsuccessful, and he sat on
Speaker 1: the edge of the bed watching him. He decided he
Speaker 1: would kill him. Jeez, can you imagine just like sleeping
Speaker 1: and someone's on the edge of your bread deciding They're
Speaker 1: gonna kill you. H nightmares. It was quite a struggle.
Speaker 1: John did not mat Dennis's victim profile in that he
Speaker 1: was taller, more rugged, and masculine, not the type Dennis
Speaker 1: would normally go for. Within the struggle, there were times
Speaker 1: John was even strangling Dennis, but in the end, though
Speaker 1: he described the struggle as stressful, where he believed he
Speaker 1: could get he was like going to get overpowered by John,
Speaker 1: he was able to get him into an unconscious state
Speaker 1: and ultimately drowned him in the Bathup the fuck. Dennis
Speaker 1: would be left with defensive wounds from the struggle for
Speaker 1: the next week, so he was close.
Speaker 2: This case is fucking stressing stress.
Speaker 1: He controlled himself for a couple months until May hit,
Speaker 1: when he encountered Carl Stolder, I think, a twenty one
Speaker 1: year old gay man, as he drank at the Black
Speaker 1: Cat Pub. As Dennis and Carl chatted, Dennis would discover
Speaker 1: Carl was struggling following a failed recent failed relationship. He
Speaker 1: invited him back to his flat, his attic fat flat,
Speaker 1: you could you have a stroke, assuring him there was
Speaker 1: no intention of sex. Carl drank heavily until he passed
Speaker 1: out in a sleeping bag. Now, this is like my
Speaker 1: worst nightmare because I actually hate the feeling of how
Speaker 1: like restricting sleeping bags are, especially mummy type sleeping mix.
Speaker 1: I just I just hate it. So this is this
Speaker 1: nightmare material for me. Carl woke to find himself being
Speaker 1: strangled inside a now closed sleeping bag, with Dennis whispering
Speaker 1: stay still. He then vaguely recalled hearing running water before
Speaker 1: realizing he was immersed and Dennis was attempting to drowned him.
Speaker 1: He begged for his life, but Dennis kept submerging him
Speaker 1: like holy shit, believing he has killed Carl. Dennis had
Speaker 1: him sitting in his armchair before realizing there was actually
Speaker 1: a thread of life left. But he actually allowed Carl
Speaker 1: to regain consciousness Wow why and his strength back over
Speaker 1: the following days, embracing and explaining to him that he
Speaker 1: had basically brought him back to life as he had.
Speaker 1: Carl had apparently strangled himself on the zipper of the
Speaker 1: sleeping bag following a nightmare, and then he placed him
Speaker 1: in cold water to bring him out of shock. What
Speaker 1: that's what his story was, I don't know. They did
Speaker 1: end up going their separate ways, with Dennis saying he
Speaker 1: hoped that they might meet again, like he was freaking lucky.
Speaker 1: But then Carl did like testify at his trial, so
Speaker 1: I think that he didn't believe him, but he was
Speaker 1: fucking lucky, Holy shit. Like I have no idea. There
Speaker 1: was actually a few reports that would say that Dennis
Speaker 1: would sometimes try to like bring people back and then
Speaker 1: be really upset when he couldn't. So I don't know
Speaker 1: what the fuck that's about.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's weird.
Speaker 1: It's like really weird.
Speaker 2: The whole fucking case is weird as fuck.
Speaker 1: So there would be two more men not so lucky.
Speaker 1: Archibald Alan aged twenty seven in September of nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 1: this was his fourteenth victim, and Steven Sinclair, aged twenty
Speaker 1: in January of nineteen eighty three, his fifteenth victim. Dennis
Speaker 1: strangled Archibald. I want to call him like Archie Archie
Speaker 1: as he sat at his kitchen table eating an omelet.
Speaker 1: That's how this Archibald died, ruined breakfast, no shit, and
Speaker 1: strangled Stephen, who was a hair and addict, after injecting
Speaker 1: himself and falling asleep in Dennis's armchair. But now he
Speaker 1: was living in an attic suite with no floorboards to
Speaker 1: hide bodies or no access to a garden. What was
Speaker 1: he doing with these bodies?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well was he doing with these bodies? Tell us?
Speaker 1: Well, what he was doing would an heavily get him caught,
Speaker 1: So you really want to know. As he did on
Speaker 1: Melrose ap Dennis was dissecting the bodies. He was placing
Speaker 1: the various dismembered parts within plastic bags and then storing
Speaker 1: them in either his wardrobe, tea chest, or within a
Speaker 1: jawer that was located underneath the tub. He would then
Speaker 1: dispose very slowly pieces of flesh, internal organs, and smaller
Speaker 1: bones of the three victims down the toilet.
Speaker 2: His toilet's gonna get fucking clogged.
Speaker 1: He was placing larger bones out with his garbage. He
Speaker 1: would also go about boiling the heads of his victims
Speaker 1: so that the internal contents would evaporate, removing the need
Speaker 1: to dispose of the brains and the flesh and wah like,
Speaker 1: that's disgusting, that's disgusting.
Speaker 2: It wouldn't evaporate.
Speaker 1: I don't know why he was boiling shit.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it would boil it. It would like you boil
Speaker 2: it to the point where it just becomes mush.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is disgusting. In the smell would be disgusting,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it.
Speaker 2: We'll just be boiled meat. Ugh, it wouldn't smell pretty,
Speaker 2: that's for sure, But I mean it's okay.
Speaker 1: However, with the accumulation of human remains, the drains would
Speaker 1: start to become claged. Other tenants were getting angry as
Speaker 1: they were dealing with backed up sinks and toilets that
Speaker 1: were unable to flush. On February fourth, nineteen eighty three,
Speaker 1: Dennis and his neighbors got together to write a letter
Speaker 1: of complaint that will go to the building landlord, letting
Speaker 1: them know what was happening and that the situation at
Speaker 1: the property was intolerable. Dennis being actively involved in that process,
Speaker 1: like right in there like a dirty shirt.
Speaker 2: Wow, really fucking himself over?
Speaker 1: Hey, I don't know, but then if he didn't, he'd
Speaker 1: fuck himself over too.
Speaker 2: Maybe he just shouldn't have killed people.
Speaker 1: And flushed them down the toilet, like that's cool.
Speaker 2: I meant, just maybe he shouldn't have just killed people.
Speaker 1: Well yes, period, but yes, but then also yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, just just from the get go, don't kill okay,
Speaker 1: so the letter of complaint would have the landlord send
Speaker 1: a plumber to the property. Dinah Rod employee Michael Catereron
Speaker 1: responded to the plumbing complaints on February eighth. As he
Speaker 1: opened the drain cover the side of the house, he
Speaker 1: discovered the train was the drain was packed with flesh
Speaker 1: like substance and numerous small bones. Michael reported his findings
Speaker 1: to a supervisor, who arrived at dusk to investigate the situation.
Speaker 1: Upon his arrival, they agreed they need a better light
Speaker 1: to investigate, so they would meet again in the morning.
Speaker 1: Before they left, however, Dennis and another Tendon would discuss
Speaker 1: the issue with the plumbers and what the unknown substance
Speaker 1: could be. When hearing them say how similar the substance
Speaker 1: appeared to human flesh, Dennis piped in, it looks to
Speaker 1: me like someone has been flushing down their Kentucky Fried chicken.
Speaker 1: That's randomly fuck that would look nothing like this.
Speaker 2: That sounds like a really awkward like social encounter and
Speaker 2: the office hallway by the water cooler, when like the
Speaker 2: one weird employee that you work with, pipes in midway
Speaker 2: and conversation things that you don't want to respond to
Speaker 2: and everyone just kind of like conversation over and like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah.
Speaker 1: Goes back to work and then.
Speaker 2: Goes back to work. That's what that just reminded me of.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Okay, So the following morning, at seven
Speaker 1: point thirty, the plumbers would arrive again, but upon their
Speaker 1: arrival this time that drain had cleaned. Who saw that
Speaker 1: coming obviously seeming extremely suspicious to both men, and then
Speaker 1: later them discovering more flesh and bones leading from the
Speaker 1: drain linked to the top of the house. So we
Speaker 1: didn't fully clean. They called the police. The leftover remains
Speaker 1: were sent to be examined, where police revised that they
Speaker 1: were in fact human, One particular piece concluded to be
Speaker 1: a human neck or human neckbone that bore a ligature
Speaker 1: mark fuck. Detectives soon learned that Dennis occupied the top
Speaker 1: flat of the building where the human remains had been
Speaker 1: flushed from. Instead of ambushing him, they decided to wait
Speaker 1: for him to return home from work. When he did,
Speaker 1: they introduced themselves and explained the situation to Dennis, asking
Speaker 1: or with Dennis, asking why the police were so interested
Speaker 1: in his drains, like why they requested access to his
Speaker 1: flat and upon entering, immediately noting the foul air of
Speaker 1: rotting flesh. Dennis questioning further why the police were interested
Speaker 1: in his drains, to which he was informed the blockage
Speaker 1: had been caused by human remains. Initially acting utterly shocked,
Speaker 1: stating good grief, how awful, the detectives replied with, don't
Speaker 1: mess about. Where's the rest of the body and that's it.
Speaker 1: Dennis then calmly omitted where the remainder of the body
Speaker 1: could be found. Really that easy, that easy, which was
Speaker 1: within two plastic bags within his wardrobe. They then asked
Speaker 1: if there were any other body parts to be found,
Speaker 1: and Dennis responded saying it was this long story and
Speaker 1: goes back a long time, but that he'd tell them
Speaker 1: everything and wants to get it off his chest.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: He was then arrested, and as he was taken to
Speaker 1: the police station, he was asked whether the remains in
Speaker 1: his flat belonged to one or two. As he stared
Speaker 1: out the window, he replied, fifteen or sixteen since nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy eight.
Speaker 2: Fuck, I bet jaws dropped right there.
Speaker 1: Oh. The detective was probably just like shit, Wow, Hey,
Speaker 1: now that's about all I'm going to say Dennis was
Speaker 1: actively confessing to his crimes, so of course was sentenced
Speaker 1: to life in prison. Like I had mentioned, a lot
Speaker 1: of his victims were not able to be identified, and
Speaker 1: he did later change his story to say he made
Speaker 1: up three of the victims and actually had only murdered
Speaker 1: twelve men. But who's to know for sure, And like,
Speaker 1: who's to even know if he knows for sure? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he could have forgotten.
Speaker 2: Lost count, or he could have been drunk, or he
Speaker 2: could have he could have legitimately thought, oh, actually no,
Speaker 2: I thought I killed that person. But I did give
Speaker 2: him CPR or something like that, and I did walk away.
Speaker 1: Or even blocked it out of his mind.
Speaker 2: Really, yeah, he probably doesn't know.
Speaker 1: Dennis was initially sentenced to life in prison with a
Speaker 1: minimum of twenty five years, but that was later replaced
Speaker 1: by a whole life tariff to ensure he was never
Speaker 1: to be released from prison good On May twelfth, twenty eighteen, however,
Speaker 1: he would die from complications of a surgery at the
Speaker 1: age of seventy two. He was at one point questioned
Speaker 1: as to whether he had any remorse of his crimes,
Speaker 1: to which he replied, I wish I could stop but
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I had no other thrill or happiness. He
Speaker 1: also emphasized that he took no pleasure from the act
Speaker 1: of killing, but worship the art and the act of death.
Speaker 2: That's sad. Like I I feel bad for him, Like
Speaker 2: I feel sorry for him? Is what I don't feel
Speaker 2: bad for him. I feel sorry for him, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like that's that's terrible and he's terrible. Like that's a
Speaker 2: pretty shitty life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so not that this is this case
Speaker 1: is not cool in any way, but there are three
Speaker 1: coolish things. His autobiography did get published about a year ago,
Speaker 1: titled The History of a Drowning Boy, And I think
Speaker 1: he'd probably actually be like a really interesting read. There's
Speaker 1: also a series made from this story titled Dez starring
Speaker 1: David Tennant. Is that how you say his last name? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I heard like nothing of good things about, Like
Speaker 1: I really won't watch that. We have to watch that
Speaker 1: and Dexter. We still haven't watched Dexter.
Speaker 2: It's a terrible and apparently silence of the world. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's an amazing movie.
Speaker 1: Okay, and this is really cool. Many of the items
Speaker 1: confiscated confiscated from Dennis's Crownley Gardens address are on display.
Speaker 1: They are to display at a New Scotland's New Scotland
Speaker 1: Yards Crime Museum, including the stove Dennis boiled, the heads
Speaker 1: of his final three victims, knives he had used to
Speaker 1: dissect several of his victims, and the headphones he used
Speaker 1: to strangle one of his victims, among other things.
Speaker 2: Brutal.
Speaker 1: I actually think that'd be interesting to see. But then
Speaker 1: I guess they're kind of profiting from this crime in
Speaker 1: a sense.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's a museum. It should be nonprofit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. That's true. It's probably going to something
Speaker 1: good hopefully. But yeah, that's the story. That's all I got.
Speaker 2: That's the story of a very very fucked up individual.
Speaker 2: Holy shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that story is wild, Like ay, no kidding that
Speaker 1: I wanted to get get off of many times, Like
Speaker 1: I hated it. Researching that was kind of a bitch.
Speaker 2: Actually talking about it was fucking horrific. Holy shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, so there you go. That's one of
Speaker 1: the craziest ones I feel like out there.
Speaker 2: No kidding, Yeah, that was that was a roller coaster,
Speaker 2: especially that one moment where he's having a sad time
Speaker 2: being happy, Yeah, I'll just say that, or a happy
Speaker 2: time being sad. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Anyway, thank you for listening to the
Speaker 1: ship show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we appreciate you, guys.
Speaker 1: We totally appreciate you guys.
Speaker 2: Check out our socials. It's all down the description. You
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Speaker 1: So many wicked things of course, someone's tail next time?
Speaker 2: Are friends Stay wicked