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<v Speaker 1>We have joining us right now, Sam Brookhouse. Uh, he's

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<v Speaker 1>with Sumer Sports. Of course, he was a two lane linebacker.

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<v Speaker 1>Just got back from the NFL combine and we have

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<v Speaker 1>severe hail outside as we as we were joined by Sam. Sam,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you welcome to the program. I'm doing well.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you all for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Always always a pleasure to have you here on the drive.

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<v Speaker 1>I I really want to start here with the with

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<v Speaker 1>the combine, right, so you you just got back from

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<v Speaker 1>the combine, and I have a couple of questions. But

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, so so what because things kind of

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<v Speaker 1>shift or they kind of solidify themselves after the combine,

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<v Speaker 1>you get prod age, you have all this stuff. What

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<v Speaker 1>what is kind of maybe moved on the needle about

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<v Speaker 1>draft draft order players. What's kind of the big news

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<v Speaker 1>after after the combine.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the most interesting thing we've kind of seen

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<v Speaker 2>is threefold. The first is the guys, particularly in the

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<v Speaker 2>edge market, who had put up really big numbers, notably

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<v Speaker 2>Schamar Stewart and James Pearce, kind of had interesting trajectory.

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<v Speaker 2>Shamar Stewart has seen a shoot upwards given his size

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<v Speaker 2>and his ability to show his athletic traits. On the

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<v Speaker 2>field in Indianapolis. He's now about fifteenth on the consensus

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<v Speaker 2>big board. Earlier on in the draft season, he was

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<v Speaker 2>more in the twenties, late second round excuse me, late

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<v Speaker 2>first round type guy. He shot up and then you

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<v Speaker 2>look at James Pearce. It kind of shows the flip

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<v Speaker 2>side of the combine. This is the time where everyone

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<v Speaker 2>can interview. There were questions about teams asking him about

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<v Speaker 2>character concerns, and that's a very key element of the

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<v Speaker 2>combine is asking those types of questions. And he's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of remained still despite having you know, an eightieth ninetieth

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<v Speaker 2>percentile combine performance. So it's been interesting to see how

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<v Speaker 2>it shakes out, especially given some teams don't even put

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<v Speaker 2>any value in the combine anymore. In fact, the Los

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<v Speaker 2>Angeles really didn't even send any of their executives this year.

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<v Speaker 2>That's concurrent with a trend that they've been doing for

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<v Speaker 2>the past couple of years. So it's interesting to see

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<v Speaker 2>how it shakes out. It seems like it's more tied

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<v Speaker 2>to the news and noise and rumors that are coming

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<v Speaker 2>out of these team interviews than the actual showing on

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<v Speaker 2>the field.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's it's interesting because when I played in

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<v Speaker 1>the NFL, we like, I hated the combine. I'll just

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<v Speaker 1>tell you right now, it is like the worst experience

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<v Speaker 1>of my life. And uh and and every shop you know,

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<v Speaker 1>so I was drafted by the Miami Dolphins, and and

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<v Speaker 1>every year coach Shula had they called it the mini Olympics, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And so you you went through and did all the

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<v Speaker 1>combine tests that that so you did the bench press,

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<v Speaker 1>you did the shuttles, you did the the forties, and

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<v Speaker 1>then we ran for twelve minutes. And he just ran

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<v Speaker 1>around the football fields for like twelve minutes. And and

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<v Speaker 1>everyone said, like, what's the value in this? Like, like

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<v Speaker 1>where where where? Because I'm fascinated by the rams and

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<v Speaker 1>I know I know that they they're looking at different

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<v Speaker 1>metrics here. Do you see that as a trend. That's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of kind of moving because because I also hear, okay, fine,

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<v Speaker 1>the combine marks all these like athletic traits, but they

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<v Speaker 1>can't tell does the guy have a heart? Does the

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<v Speaker 1>guy you know? Does the guy have a sense for football?

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<v Speaker 1>Does he have a football like you? And you've seen

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<v Speaker 1>great examples of this with players through the years. So

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<v Speaker 1>is that a trend? That's changing, or you know what

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<v Speaker 1>different types of things are teams specifically the rams looking

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<v Speaker 1>at to gauge and evaluate players.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we're big in a data here at Suomer Sports,

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<v Speaker 2>and what the data shows is that the correlation between

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<v Speaker 2>these events and the actual production on field really is

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<v Speaker 2>minimal at best. But on the flip side, as a

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<v Speaker 2>data scientist, there's such few data points that we really

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<v Speaker 2>do have to track these college players on their way

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<v Speaker 2>to the pros. We can look at their production, but

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<v Speaker 2>there's so much context. You know, did the player go

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<v Speaker 2>to a place like Utah State or where they in

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<v Speaker 2>the big leagues in the Pac twelve, in the Big

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<v Speaker 2>twelve like Utah. There's there's so many questions that come

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<v Speaker 2>along with production that it's kind of hard to look

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<v Speaker 2>back in history and understand what was going on. We

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<v Speaker 2>now have the tracking data, which is very key, but

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<v Speaker 2>we only have a couple of years, given that the

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<v Speaker 2>technology has just now evolved to that spot. The copline

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<v Speaker 2>has been going on for decades and as a result,

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<v Speaker 2>it has a very deep, rich and uniform backlog of

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<v Speaker 2>data that is somewhat helpful. But as a result, because

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<v Speaker 2>we have that big backlog, we've been able to find

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<v Speaker 2>out that the numbers just don't mean that much except

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<v Speaker 2>for you know, a few key items like tight ends.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they have to be a certain level of athlete,

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<v Speaker 2>a certain threshold of athlete to be good at the

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<v Speaker 2>next level. Makes sense because they have to receive and block.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a couple of places where it's even close to

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<v Speaker 2>like a fifty percent correlation, but that's very low in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of correlation to begin with, pretty close to uncorrelated.

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<v Speaker 2>And as a result, you know, we try to take

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<v Speaker 2>what we can from it, but we all understand as

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<v Speaker 2>data side scientist that it just is not something that

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<v Speaker 2>you want to pin your whole evaluation on. That's why

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<v Speaker 2>with these guys like Shamar Stewart and James Pierce and

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<v Speaker 2>some of the other running backs in particular, when they

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<v Speaker 2>shoot all the way up the board, I tend to

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<v Speaker 2>be really, really skeptical of whether that's a good evaluation.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh okay, I have I have a suggestion for some

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<v Speaker 1>data analytics and maybe you do this, maybe you don't,

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<v Speaker 1>and so maybe I'm going to give you an idea

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<v Speaker 1>here because this was and again it wasn't scientific, It

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<v Speaker 1>was just my observation from my time playing. And so

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<v Speaker 1>I played in the NFL twelve years and every year,

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<v Speaker 1>like new guys that come in and you always go, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that guy can play. That you knew like very quickly

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<v Speaker 1>whether guys were going to make it or not, and

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<v Speaker 1>and not necessarily to what degree, but just that they

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<v Speaker 1>were going to make the team or not. And one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things I noticed through the years is there

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<v Speaker 1>was a decent number of players from big time programs

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<v Speaker 1>who were who were massively at who really struggled like

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<v Speaker 1>they did like they didn't. It was almost like you go, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a surefire guy because he played here and

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<v Speaker 1>he's this and he's all that. And I saw a

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<v Speaker 1>decent number of those guys who didn't make it. I'm curious,

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<v Speaker 1>do you do you track data like that or do you?

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<v Speaker 1>Or am I? Am I throwing something new out at

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<v Speaker 1>you that maybe you might might consider watching. And my

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<v Speaker 1>theory before you answer is they were always just better

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<v Speaker 1>athletes than than most of the people they were against,

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<v Speaker 1>and so they never really learned like the the craft,

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't learn the art of their position, they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>learn and they didn't realize that like everybody at the

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<v Speaker 1>NFL is really good and if if you're gonna succeed,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're gonna have a you've got to you've got

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<v Speaker 1>to really understand. You can't just out athlete lead people.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean there's a couple, you know, Barry Sanders, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>a Dion sand A few of these guys could do it,

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<v Speaker 1>but most guys you had to really be a master

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<v Speaker 1>of your craft. Is that something that you am I?

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<v Speaker 1>Am I telling you something new? Or is this something

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<v Speaker 1>you actually track? Or am I crazy? I think no.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you hit the nail on the head here.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's never clean when it comes to the data.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's why at Summer Sports we try to blend

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<v Speaker 2>the subjectiveness. You know, you talked about the heart the IQ,

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<v Speaker 2>the understanding of the game with the actual evaluation of

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<v Speaker 2>the tracking data, how they're moving on the field and

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<v Speaker 2>how fast they're moving and their production, which we can

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<v Speaker 2>get down again to the tracking level. We can get

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<v Speaker 2>down to how they finish after two seconds on a

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<v Speaker 2>pass rush, you know when you really got to dig

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<v Speaker 2>deep and try that second effort and stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think you really nailed on the head looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the data, typically the star system from the two

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<v Speaker 2>four seven ratings typically is pretty good, but it's just

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<v Speaker 2>that pretty good. There's probably like twenty five percent or

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<v Speaker 2>more of those guys who are looked out at big

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<v Speaker 2>time recruits who have immense athleticism and just can't make

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<v Speaker 2>it at the next level. Because everyone at the next level,

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<v Speaker 2>as you well know, and I'm sure you can talk

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<v Speaker 2>about a lot better than me, just me being the

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<v Speaker 2>college guy, has the athleticism to succeed at the college level,

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<v Speaker 2>athleticism to succeed at the pro level, and the IQ

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<v Speaker 2>to succeed at the pro level, which in my mind

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<v Speaker 2>is like one hundred x what it is at the

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<v Speaker 2>college level. You're dealing with guys who had been in

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<v Speaker 2>the league for ten fifteen years. They've seen everything, they've

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<v Speaker 2>done everything. I think about all those Patriots guys, or

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<v Speaker 2>even Joe Tooney who just got traded, for example, from

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<v Speaker 2>the Kansas City Chiefs, he's a Patriot guy too. Can

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<v Speaker 2>you imagine all the things that that guy had seen

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<v Speaker 2>that a young, strapping defensive tackle hasn't even a concept

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<v Speaker 2>of when he's going up against him. And so that's

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<v Speaker 2>really the difference and the guys who can kind of

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<v Speaker 2>pick up on it quick. Jayden Daniels is a great

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<v Speaker 2>example of this. He was able to use VR to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of get himself up to speed at the next level.

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<v Speaker 2>He used it like two x speed and that helped

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<v Speaker 2>him out a little bit. But it's good to notate

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<v Speaker 2>who the guys that can do that are. But it's

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<v Speaker 2>really a crapshoot, and it's something that we like to

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<v Speaker 2>use our subjective analysis coming from our scouts and general

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<v Speaker 2>managers to get a better sense of. But it's really

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<v Speaker 2>really difficult.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it almost seems like if you you maybe don't

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<v Speaker 1>get all the data right, but if you can figure

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<v Speaker 1>out just just something like a little little tweak or

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<v Speaker 1>something that just gives you a little bit of an

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<v Speaker 1>advantage over over you know, other people like you could

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<v Speaker 1>you can. You can look at the data and you

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<v Speaker 1>can draw something out from it that maybe other people aren't.

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<v Speaker 1>And just because I would imagine just a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of a of a bump, like you know, like the Rams,

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<v Speaker 1>because they really bucked a trend. I remember them talking

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<v Speaker 1>about this and it wasn't so much about someone's speed,

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<v Speaker 1>it was about their speed on a football field, right

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<v Speaker 1>that they could get and they use Cooper Cup as

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<v Speaker 1>the example, like like what makes him so good as

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<v Speaker 1>he gets from point A to point B as fast,

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<v Speaker 1>if not faster than anyone around, and so evaluating those

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<v Speaker 1>data points to prove to be more more valuable than

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<v Speaker 1>maybe a traditional way of looking.

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<v Speaker 2>At Yeah, here's an interesting ten trend just talking about

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<v Speaker 2>the Rams, which I'm going to be deeply tracking in

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<v Speaker 2>the next couple of years. Uh, given the rise of

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<v Speaker 2>the transfer at the college level. The Rams have four

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<v Speaker 2>guys on their defensive line, all four transferred up a

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<v Speaker 2>level at the college level, and we're able to be

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<v Speaker 2>really successful. We talk about Braden Fisk coming from I

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<v Speaker 2>believe it was Western Michigan. He came from to Florida State,

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<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, he's an All American level player.

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<v Speaker 2>Jared Verse, who was, you know, a Rookie of the

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<v Speaker 2>Year candidate this year. He transferred up to Florida State

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<v Speaker 2>from Albany. And then you have guys like Brian Byron

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<v Speaker 2>Young and Kobe Turner who transferred up from various different

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<v Speaker 2>locations as well. I'm wondering if they picked up on

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<v Speaker 2>something there. Maybe it was a little bit more subjective.

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<v Speaker 2>They like guys who can overcome and succeed at the

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<v Speaker 2>Power five level after doing it at a lower level.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm wondering if we're not going to see more

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<v Speaker 2>than that, particularly at those offensive defensive line positions, which

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<v Speaker 2>require such a high level of IQ at the NFL level,

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<v Speaker 2>despite not necessarily needing it at the college level where

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<v Speaker 2>you can kind of out athlete people.

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<v Speaker 1>That's an interesting observation because I, you know, so I'm

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<v Speaker 1>out here in Utah and and the color analysts for

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<v Speaker 1>for Utah football, and and you know, been doing it

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<v Speaker 1>for about eight years, and so I've had a chance

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<v Speaker 1>to watch some of uh these players, specifically Shador Sanders

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<v Speaker 1>and cam Ward and and even Jayden and Daniels. Jade

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<v Speaker 1>Daniels was actually initially recruited and he committed to Utah

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<v Speaker 1>and then and then he decided to go to Arizona State.

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<v Speaker 1>And I remember watching Shad or not Chadur, but Jayden

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<v Speaker 1>as a freshman, and he he looked terrible, Like I

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<v Speaker 1>was like, I'm not really all that impressed with him,

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<v Speaker 1>and and he was just and and and you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about he transferred to l s U and and he

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<v Speaker 1>was really good in cam Ward, you know, came from

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<v Speaker 1>Incarnate Ward and that word and and went to Washington

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<v Speaker 1>State and what And I watched him at Washington say,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, okay, you know, he's okay. I mean he's

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<v Speaker 1>real raw and all this stuff. And then and then

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<v Speaker 1>he went again to Miami and just you saw that

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<v Speaker 1>that if it was part of transferring it because I'm

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<v Speaker 1>thinking of my own experience, and I know, like when

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<v Speaker 1>I went for high school to college, that transition going

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<v Speaker 1>to a new program, boy, that was so hard, Like

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<v Speaker 1>my freshman year of college was terrible, And it was

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<v Speaker 1>actually easier transitioning the second time, you know, when I

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<v Speaker 1>went into the NFL, even though it was harder, the

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<v Speaker 1>transition to it was was actually a little bit easier.

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<v Speaker 1>And I wonder if there's some of that involved where

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<v Speaker 1>you get used to and kind of the mystery of

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<v Speaker 1>new places kind of wears off, or you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>think of you know, I went in the NFL and

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<v Speaker 1>I was a quarterback, played behind Dan Marino for my

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<v Speaker 1>first few years, and I went back, I went to

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<v Speaker 1>the World League and played in an off season and

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<v Speaker 1>came back so much better a player. And that's a

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating thing you're looking at, and I think there's really

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<v Speaker 1>something there, and it may be not just for you know,

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<v Speaker 1>those offense defensive line positions, but maybe maybe even more

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<v Speaker 1>for quarterbacks and others. Having to learn new systems and

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<v Speaker 1>getting comfortable in new places might might have an impact.

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<v Speaker 1>Who knows.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's going to be an interesting test

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<v Speaker 2>this year because we talk about the guys who have

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<v Speaker 2>been highly drafted in past years, and we're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>Jayden Daniels who transferred from P five school Ariasona State

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<v Speaker 2>to P five school. Joe Burrow didn't really get a

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<v Speaker 2>chance to play, but he was at Ohio State and

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<v Speaker 2>then he went to LSU. Cam Moore and Shade or

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<v Speaker 2>Sanders are going to be an interesting test case because,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, Ward succeeded at the FCS level, at

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<v Speaker 2>the Pac twelve level, at the ACC level. This is

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<v Speaker 2>a dude who has succeeded at the lowest rung of

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<v Speaker 2>college or of major college football to the highest rung

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<v Speaker 2>of the of major college football. And it's really the

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<v Speaker 2>same thing with Shade Door Sanders at Jackson State. Immensely

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<v Speaker 2>successful and again incarnate word. I'm from South Louisiana. I

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<v Speaker 2>grew up in Southland Whack Country, and I grew up

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<v Speaker 2>around all the HBCUs and Jackson State and Karnate Word

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<v Speaker 2>are not the easiest places to win by any means.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's some powerhouses in those conference that bully

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<v Speaker 2>those teams from year to year, and they were able

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<v Speaker 2>to turn those programs around and really win. And then

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<v Speaker 2>you look at Shade Door Sanders too. You know all

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<v Speaker 2>the discussion of did he interview well, didn't he interview well? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I know one thing, he turned Jackson State around, It

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<v Speaker 2>really turned the whole college around with his dad as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and then he went to Colorado really off his poor

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<v Speaker 2>team all of a sudden. Now they're in contention for

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<v Speaker 2>a Big twelve title this year. I mean like, at

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<v Speaker 2>some point we just got to look at the record

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<v Speaker 2>and understand that this dude clearly has at least some

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<v Speaker 2>ability to lead a program, given he's done it twice

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<v Speaker 2>in two different pretty difficult scenarios.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was going to ask you about Shadeur because

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<v Speaker 1>I've also been around him a little bit and interviewed

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<v Speaker 1>and I actually found him to be cocky, right I did.

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, wow, this, okay, this gets pretty brash,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's like whatever, And I wasn't. I wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>rubbed the wrong way and cam Ward very different, like

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<v Speaker 1>very different personalities, different different mindsets. And it's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>fun to be able to, you know, because you have

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<v Speaker 1>a one on one personal interview with these guys for

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<v Speaker 1>a decent amount of time. And and and Shadur was

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<v Speaker 1>was pretty uh, you know, he's pretty arrogant. I'll just

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<v Speaker 1>I'll leave it at that. How much of though, really

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<v Speaker 1>do NFL teams buy into that? And and there you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's been some discussion about that maybe being a knock

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<v Speaker 1>on him. You know, I'm just curious what your thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>are about, you know, a player with a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of an attitude or or you know, or or confident

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<v Speaker 1>what what kind of what kind of what? How do

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<v Speaker 1>teams rate that? Or how do teams evaluate a person's

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<v Speaker 1>confidence level or their personality for that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So as a core data scientist, this is something

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<v Speaker 2>that we can't really measure, and frankly, we like to

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<v Speaker 2>stay out of a little bit because, as as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>it can kind of become he said, she said, or

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<v Speaker 2>a team throwing smoke about something and and then a

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<v Speaker 2>snowball falls and all of a sudden, the guys starts

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<v Speaker 2>tumbling down draft boards or tumbling up draft boards, depending

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<v Speaker 2>on how it goes. I just think it's it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>interesting in general because a general manager is not just

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<v Speaker 2>building a football team, he's building a culture. And Thomas

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<v Speaker 2>de Menchrov talks about this all the time about how

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<v Speaker 2>he learned the different types of culture from the Patriot

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<v Speaker 2>paradigm when he was there and then his own attitudes,

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<v Speaker 2>thoughts and believes. So when he went down to the

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<v Speaker 2>Falcons are president here at Summer Sports and a close

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<v Speaker 2>mentor of mine, and so you really have to build

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<v Speaker 2>a culture in a workplace that allows a team to

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<v Speaker 2>go well. And you know that well as a former quarterback,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got to be able to command the huddle and

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<v Speaker 2>have the respect of the guys around you, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think that is key. I do wonder about how well

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<v Speaker 2>we can predict at at any given point in time.

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<v Speaker 2>And one thing I also note about schedule. You mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>the arrogance, and maybe that comes from prime time baby,

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<v Speaker 2>like you know, his dad was like that back in

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<v Speaker 2>the eighties and nineties, and it brings a certain air

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<v Speaker 2>of confidence. But I think something that people don't recognize

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<v Speaker 2>now is all of these players coming in are professional athletes.

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<v Speaker 2>They've had to deal with agent, they've had to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with money, They've had to deal with all the noise

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<v Speaker 2>that comes with those two things. And I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the hoop to jump through to being an NFL athlete

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<v Speaker 2>with big money and a full schedule of football is

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<v Speaker 2>a lot less than it used to be even four

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<v Speaker 2>or five years ago, back when I was playing. Because

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<v Speaker 2>now these guys are pretty much fully professional, jumping teams

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<v Speaker 2>every year, agents going out and taking offers and having

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<v Speaker 2>to negotiate for themselves and their value. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>just much less of a hoop to jump through, and

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<v Speaker 2>I really think it's going to end up resembling more basketball,

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<v Speaker 2>where maybe every once in a while we'll get a

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<v Speaker 2>guy who is way off the reservation, but for the

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<v Speaker 2>most part, they're pretty well media trained and pretty professional

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<v Speaker 2>coming into the NBA. I think it's going to start

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<v Speaker 2>resembling that a little bit more than the tales of

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<v Speaker 2>your of the guys jumping to the NFL.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, Sam, I have really enjoyed this, I really have.

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<v Speaker 1>It's given me a lot to think about it. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's really cool what you're doing, and I've just

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<v Speaker 1>had a great time here thanks for coming on the

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<v Speaker 1>show and have have a great rest of your day.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I appreciate it.