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Name something that's not boring, laundry, a 13 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:42.840 book club, computer solitaire. Huh oh, sorry, we were looking 14 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:48.359 for chumbu casino Chum. That's right, Chumbucasino dot com as 15 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:51.039 over one hundred casino style games. Join today and play 16 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.640 for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes. 17 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:55.399 Chum. 18 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:59.320 Chumbucasino dot com were looted by eighty plus tarts conditions 19 00:00:59.320 --> 00:00:59.840 of plusy websver. 20 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:11.159 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 21 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:14.280 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 22 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:21.640 written about them. Geese Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK every 23 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:25.359 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 24 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.640 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 25 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.519 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 26 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:47.239 Good Evening. On February twenty first, nineteen ninety two, twenty 27 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:50.719 two year old Brian Bechtold walked into a police station 28 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:53.799 in Port Saint Joe, Florida, and confessed that he'd shot 29 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:57.079 and killed his parents in their family home in Silver Spring, Maryland. 30 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:01.079 He said he'd been possessed by the devil. He was 31 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:05.719 eventually diagnosed with schizophrenia and ruled not criminally responsible for 32 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:10.400 the murders on grounds of insanity. But after the trial, 33 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:16.039 where did the criminally insane go? Makita Brotman reveals Brian's 34 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:18.840 inner life leading up to the murder, as well as 35 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:23.759 his complicated afterlife in a maximum security psychiatric hospital where 36 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:28.319 he is neither imprisoned nor free. During his twenty seven 37 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:30.960 years at the hospital, Brian has tried to escape and 38 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:34.360 been shot by police, and has witnessed three patients on 39 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:39.520 patient murders. He's experienced the drugging of patients beyond recognition, 40 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:44.759 a sadistic system of rewards and punishments, and the short 41 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:49.919 lived reign of a crazed psychiatrist turn docker in the 42 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:54.080 tradition of one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. Couple Found 43 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:58.039 Slain is an insider's account of life in the underworld 44 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:02.240 of forensic psych wards in America and the forgotten lives 45 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:06.960 of those held there, often indefinitely. The book that we're 46 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:11.400 featuring this evening is Couple Found Slain After a Family 47 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:16.199 Murder with my special guest, author and psychoanalyst, Keita Brotman. 48 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:18.680 Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for 49 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:22.039 this interview. Makeita brock thank you, Thank you for having me. 50 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:26.719 Thank you so much. This is an extraordinary, extraordinary book. 51 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:31.520 As I mentioned to you, especially in regard to its uniqueness. 52 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:38.439 Let's tell our audience how you came to be the author, 53 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:40.599 why you wanted to write this book, How you became 54 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.719 to be the author of Couple Found Slain. 55 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:47.840 Well, I'm glad that you think it's unique, because that's 56 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:52.639 really what I was going for. And to tell you 57 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:56.400 about how I how I came to write it is 58 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:58.439 I really need to say a little bit about my 59 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.080 own interest in true crime, which I've always been an 60 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:06.240 interest of mine, but I'm not so interested in genre 61 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:10.680 true crime. I'm much more interested in the stories that 62 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:14.719 don't get told for the you know, the stories of 63 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:19.560 the story sort of around the periphery of the actual 64 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:24.240 crime itself. And that's something that interested me for a while. 65 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:31.519 And in twenty thirteen, and my ordinary day job is 66 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:33.920 a professor at the college, and I was ontobratical that 67 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.839 year and I did some volunteer teaching. I taught in 68 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:42.079 a prison, and I taught in a forensic psychiatric hospital 69 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:47.839 called Clifton Perkins in Maryland, and I taught fiction. So 70 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.879 the group in Perkins, the psychiatric hospital was for pretty 71 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:57.040 high functioning patients to help them to have discussion groups, 72 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.800 to read, to help develop empathy and so on, and 73 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:04.959 to to help just an activity, give them something to do. 74 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.439 So Brian was one of the members of the groups 75 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:12.439 right from the start, and I was I mean they 76 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.720 were all. This was a maximum security facility, so all 77 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:20.839 the patients have committed serious crime. But I was surprised 78 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:24.600 how how high functioning they were. That Brian in particular, 79 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:28.079 because he was so he was eager to join in. 80 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:32.079 He's very helpful, he was articulate, he was a genial 81 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:40.240 he was interesting, and I started to wonder. I didn't 82 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:42.920 know what the patients had done or what the diagnosis were, 83 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:45.240 but I started to wonder about Brian, you know, what 84 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:50.120 he was doing there. And then one day, after another 85 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:53.199 patient had left, a young girl, we were talking about 86 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.040 her and Brian said that he would, he would. He 87 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:57.680 wanted to ask her out, but then he found that 88 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:02.040 she was she was born in Nice, eighteen ninety seven. 89 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:04.199 And I asked him, well, were you in nineteen ninety seven, 90 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:06.680 and he said he was. He was there at Perkins, 91 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:08.839 and in fact, he was closer to getting out than 92 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:11.639 he is today. And I realized that he'd been there 93 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:15.759 for over twenty years. And then I became very curious, 94 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:19.439 because you know, all the patients have committed serious crimes, 95 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.560 but hardly any of them stays out length of time. 96 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:26.040 The average stays around seven years, I think, and often 97 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:28.920 a lot less. So he told me that he'd killed 98 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.079 his parents, which is, you know, it's a terrible crime, 99 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:40.000 but among schizophrenics who commit murder, killing one's parents is 100 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:43.199 not uncommon. I think there's a I've read different estimates, 101 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:46.040 but you know, at least three hundred such murders a 102 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:50.839 year in the US, which is, you know, it's not 103 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:55.759 a lot, but sort of crimes that seems so unusual. 104 00:06:56.439 --> 00:07:01.079 It's not uncommon. So many of the other patients in 105 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:04.399 Pokins had also killed their parents or one of their parents, 106 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:09.639 and so I started to learn more about Brian's story 107 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:12.920 and his history and his background. Eventually I realized, you know, 108 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:16.120 I'm always kind of looking out for the new subjects 109 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:18.079 to write about, and I realized that Brian's was a 110 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.079 very interesting story, and it's a story that doesn't normally 111 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:24.759 get told. It's about true crime. It's about crime, but 112 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:28.560 it's a different part of the true crime narratives that 113 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.600 people don't normally get to hear. And I realized that 114 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:36.360 since Brian was so helpful and articulate and ready to 115 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.399 give me his you know, his psychiatric notes, his and 116 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:44.079 his court records, and I learned from him that those 117 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.639 twenty seven years have actually been in some ways full 118 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:50.800 of drama. Even though the day to day life in 119 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:55.120 the hospital might be just ordinary bureaucracy and not much 120 00:07:55.199 --> 00:08:01.199 going on, over time, there's been some really fascinating events. 121 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:06.079 So I decided to write the book, and Brian, you know, 122 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.199 gave me all the information about his life, and I 123 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:14.160 interviewed other people who involved, and yeah, I just wanted 124 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:16.839 to tell that side of the story that doesn't very 125 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:18.360 often get told. 126 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:23.160 Let's get to the rest of that other part of 127 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.279 the story, but let's first go back to the original 128 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:33.159 horrendous crime point. Say Joe, Florida, February twenty first, nineteen 129 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:40.519 ninety two, and there's a officer, Timothy high Tower. He's 130 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:44.960 at the police headquarters and a young man walks in 131 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:52.080 and this is Brian. What does Brian say to this officer? 132 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:54.919 What is the story that he tells them? What does 133 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:55.559 he tell them? 134 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:00.799 He tells them that he kills his parents and that 135 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:06.519 he was possessed by the devil, and the officers are dubious. 136 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:14.200 They interview him for a while. They then they Brian 137 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:17.399 thinks that they suspected he was on drugs, or they didn't. 138 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.519 They really didn't seem to believe him, and partly because 139 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:26.600 his parents had a vacation home in Florida, although they 140 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.600 lived in Maryland, and that the police assumed that perhaps 141 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:34.000 the parents were the vacation home, or that Brian was mistaken, 142 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.759 or Brian was confused because he didn't know when he'd 143 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.919 killed them. He thought it was maybe ten days, two weeks. 144 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:43.159 He wasn't sure. He had a very clear memory of 145 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:47.960 what happened, but he also said that he wasn't sure 146 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:51.679 if he dreamed it or if he imagined it. And 147 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:56.720 so he seemed very in some ways, very determined and clear, 148 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.279 in other ways, very much out of touch. The police 149 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:03.039 in Florida made calls to the police in Maryland. Well, 150 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:05.600 first they called Brian's home and there was no answer. 151 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:10.159 Then they called the local police in Maryland where Brian lived. 152 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:13.559 And as you said that we have a young man 153 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.080 down here who says he's killed his parents, do you 154 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.639 have a record of an elderly couple, retired couple who 155 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:23.320 have been killed? And they said no, not at all, 156 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:27.120 but they said they would do a wellness trick anyway, 157 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:31.039 just in case. They went to the house and they 158 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.360 found that actually Brian was telling the truth. He had 159 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.279 killed his parents. He'd shot them both, and then he 160 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.159 had immediately stolen the family car and took his dog 161 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:46.120 with him and driven. He intended to to drive across 162 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:51.240 the borders to Mexico, but he ended up actually, you know, 163 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:56.879 kind of going in circles and eventually he picked up 164 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.840 a hitchhiker, and he was very delusional all this time, 165 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.879 but he had a revelation. He was at the campsite 166 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:05.679 in Portant Joe, Florida for a while, he read the 167 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:08.399 King James Bible. He heard a show on the radio 168 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:12.759 religious show and had this revelation that he had been 169 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:16.480 possessed by the devil and that he needed to turn 170 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.559 himself over to the police to be forgiven, which is 171 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.720 what he did. And so that's kind of where where 172 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:25.120 the story begins. 173 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.639 Police when they do the illness check obviously find even 174 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.679 through the window, the officer can see that there's someone 175 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.440 sitting in a chair and obviously dead. What is the 176 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:42.360 condition of his parents in that home found by police 177 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:44.039 at that time in Maryland. 178 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.559 Well, they've been he shot them. I think it was 179 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.039 a fifth over a week earlier. And so obviously there 180 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.799 you know, the bodies and is decomposing and in a 181 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:59.559 bad state. But then so is the rest of the house. 182 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.679 I mean the I begin that the book with a 183 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:06.200 description of the scene that the police finds, because the 184 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.080 house is it's really now I've seen the police photographs, 185 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:16.639 it's really a wreck. There's trash, everywhere. It's it looks 186 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:21.279 like the home of hoarders, and there's just you know, 187 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:27.000 there's food all over the kitchen. It looks like it 188 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.639 doesn't look lived in, but the fact the parents were 189 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:35.000 living there and and her Brand's mother had cancer breast continer. 190 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:39.159 She was using an oxygen tech. The television was on 191 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.600 when the police went in upstairs, that the house was 192 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:47.759 not so messy, but there were really strange signs all 193 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:50.559 over the house that clearly, you know, something has been 194 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:53.639 wrong in this house for a very long time. And 195 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:59.799 there was like writing on a TV guide it's had 196 00:12:59.799 --> 00:13:02.200 to go to how there was a strange kind of 197 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:08.440 birthle in the floor in the basement. There were a 198 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:14.519 lot of karate prophies in an upstairs bedroom and bullet shells, 199 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:18.000 and they found the box for swe off shotguns. So 200 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.759 they were kind of putting the story together as they 201 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:25.080 as they stooded the house and photograph the house and 202 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:28.519 converts to the autopsy that this was clearly a house 203 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.240 where things had not been right for some time, and 204 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:32.159 they and they were right. 205 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.080 You in your book go back and tell the story 206 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:42.919 of Brian Anthony beck Told and his parents, George and 207 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:48.480 Dorothy tell Us a little bit about who these people 208 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:51.720 were and and tell us how they lived. 209 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:59.919 The Bechtels were family. The parents that goes into a 210 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:06.000 big grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and like many families, 211 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.440 there was a history of mental illness in the family, 212 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.639 although it wasn't necessarily called mental illness. You know, there 213 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.759 was an uncle who wasn't right in their head, and 214 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.200 you know, people have different euphemisms for it, but clearly 215 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:20.600 there was a history of mental illness in the family. 216 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:29.240 And the parents married fairly fairly young, and George was 217 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:33.399 doing his PhD in electrical engineering, and Dorothy became a 218 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.600 housewife pretty quickly. And it seems that right from the 219 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:38.320 start they. 220 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:38.960 Were in this match. 221 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:42.919 It seems that George was very distant and cold and 222 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.600 didn't really seem to be interested in his family or 223 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:50.480 didn't really have an ability to show a section was 224 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:56.639 a very were drawn kind of person. And because they 225 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.799 were Catholics, they had a number of children in succession. 226 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:03.960 They four children while George was still finishing his PhD 227 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:06.720 and then moving around the country as he worked at 228 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.840 different like he worked at the Weapons Center and then 229 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:14.240 he got a job at Martin Marietta in Orlando, Florida, 230 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.279 and that was a big move up in the world 231 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.320 for the family, and they moved into a more prosperous 232 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.720 house and it seemed like things were really kind of 233 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.919 steppling down. But the dynamic between the parents, George and Dorothy, 234 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:28.559 was just getting worse and worse, and they became you know, 235 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:32.120 they weren't the most abusive parents, but they certainly began using, 236 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:40.759 using their punishing their children, especially George Junior, the older boy, 237 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:45.039 and being very physically hands on and neglecting them for 238 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:49.200 long periods of time. So they were certainly neglects and abusive. 239 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.159 And then when the family seemed to be falling apart, 240 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.120 Dorothy sand she was forty two, she found that she's 241 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.360 pregnant with Brian, and the last day the family needed 242 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.200 was another child. They were ill prepared to deal with 243 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:05.600 the four children very hat but for some reason, George 244 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:07.919 did not want to Swat have an abortion, even though 245 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.120 she wanted one, and so Brian was more into this, 246 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:11.600 you know. 247 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:12.360 Very. 248 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.080 Like hot house, you know, this terrible situation where he 249 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:22.080 really didn't have a chance right from the start, you know, 250 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.039 he was not really welcomed. 251 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:31.399 Yes, so he to say he had a dysfunctional family 252 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.799 life was to say the least, and with siblings much 253 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:39.039 older than him, and a couple of the siblings trying 254 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:42.320 to get out of the house from this dysfunctional family 255 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:49.639 life itself. But there was particular you talk about George Sr. 256 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:55.879 Being abusive and cruel to his wife and family, but 257 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.159 then he had an accident and he quit drinking, and 258 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.480 then he was even more more aggressive and verbally abusive, 259 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:02.919 wasn't he. 260 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.119 Yeah, And it's interesting because people think again, like you 261 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.480 tell a narrative and someone gives up drinking, and they 262 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:12.400 seem to you know, that she usually the turning point 263 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:15.920 and they were car But in fact George seems to 264 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:19.119 have been using alcohol to you know, to help him 265 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.720 and to make him feel more affectionate, to help them sleep. 266 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:24.200 And there was three years when he was sort of 267 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:28.839 versically drying out from his alcoholism, when he was even colder. 268 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.000 And then his wife Dorothy got breast cancer and she's 269 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.480 very sick, and he didn't seem to have very much 270 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.960 shemverthy towards her at all, And so the dynamics of 271 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:43.319 the family descended even further. And yes, I mean one 272 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.920 of the daughters attempted suicide many times. Both of the 273 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:50.799 daughters were in an ad of psychiatric hospital of one 274 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.119 ran after join a cult. They basically did everything they 275 00:17:55.160 --> 00:18:00.480 could to get out of this devastatingly abusive family situation, 276 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:05.839 and Brian for a while found release in martial arts. 277 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.680 He joined taking martial arts with and he became very 278 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:13.039 close to his martial arts teacher and made a good 279 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:15.839 friend there at at the karate studio. And for a 280 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.680 while it seems as though that was kind of he 281 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.079 was found a path that was going to be more accepting. 282 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:26.160 But after that things really went downhill. He dropped out 283 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:34.839 of school, he started using drugs, and really he went 284 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.119 to college for a while, but then he was on 285 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:39.759 probation for a drug offence and then his father stopped 286 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:44.319 paying the tuition. So so yeah, things when it seemed 287 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:46.920 as though things were getting better, things were getting worse. 288 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:51.319 And Brian really didn't know the two older siblings afore. 289 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:53.599 They were, you know, fifteen years and seventeen years older 290 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:59.000 than him, so they were really far apart. And after 291 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:02.799 the older siblings home, Brian was still young, he was 292 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:04.799 still a young boy, and he was left at home 293 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:09.920 with these older parents who really had no interest in 294 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:15.720 him and didn't really want him there. So it's unsurprising 295 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:20.119 that his depression became pathological. 296 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:25.480 Was any religion an element in this? You talk about 297 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.039 that he later or soon would say that he was 298 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.359 possessed by the devil, But how much was religion and 299 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:34.880 influence on what religions was he looking at in particular? 300 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.039 Well, like I said, his parents were Catholic, and they 301 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:42.799 seemed to have pretty consistently gone to church regularly at 302 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:47.240 various times. But the children didn't have to go to 303 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:50.319 church and didn't, you know, unless they wanted to. And 304 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.200 for a while, one of Brian's sisters, like I said, 305 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.519 she ran away and joined a cult, kind of strange 306 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.400 ult in New York called the Forever Family. And one 307 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:05.640 of the things that the cult members diod was to 308 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:10.119 perform exoricism. And Brian remembers getting a cassette tape from 309 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.680 his sister recording was exorism that he was sort of 310 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.720 fascinated by, and he remembers sort of playing them again 311 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:20.680 and again and wondering, you know, thinking about the idea 312 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.119 that someone could have been possessed by the devil. So 313 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:26.279 the idea was already kind of floating around in his 314 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.559 mind from an early time. But then he also became 315 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:36.200 He had a girlfriend who was Iranian, and he didn't convert, 316 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.720 but he learned. He gave up eating pork, and he 317 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.039 listened to the Quran on the audio tape and it 318 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.839 became very interested in religion, but he never actually practiced 319 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.839 any religion himself or felt as though he was a 320 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:53.720 Christian until after the time when he believed that he'd 321 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.680 been told to turn himself in and that he was forgiven. 322 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.000 So there was certainly a strong religious elements to it, 323 00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:04.240 and in fact Brian has been religious ever since then, 324 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:06.680 although he's len that's one of the things he's learned 325 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.160 not to talk about in the psychiatric hospitals because generally 326 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:13.359 seen as a symptom of mental illness in the hospital. 327 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:21.759 So the family life is dysfunctional. But does anyone notice 328 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:29.119 his increased, we'll say, departure from sanity. Does anybody notice 329 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:32.440 these changes in Brian? And what are some of the 330 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:35.920 other things you talked about? Drug use. I've heard the 331 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:41.559 theory about marijuana and people vulnerable to schizophrenia and marijuana 332 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:45.759 can exacerbate that. But I especially agree with some of 333 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:49.079 the drugs that he was taking that could alter his 334 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.200 sense of reality, which to be PCP. And so he 335 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:57.839 was doing often hard drugs and not just chronically smoking. 336 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:01.799 Marijuana right how he was And this is you know, 337 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:06.799 this is often a pattern in people who have a 338 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.240 schizophrenic break. I mean, this is around the age of 339 00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:13.519 sort of late teams to early twenties, when a person 340 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.839 is already genetically sort of predisposed to schizophonny anyway, And 341 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:20.240 in Brian's case, it just seemed like it was a 342 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:24.599 loaded gun, really was. He was using a lot of 343 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.440 marijuana and also everything he can get particular strain of 344 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.960 PCP called love but that was around DC at the 345 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.559 time that he was getting hold off. But that was 346 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.319 a short period of time that he was doing that. 347 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.519 He got he had a job delivering a pizza and 348 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:46.240 he was arrested he coming home from work one day 349 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:47.960 and the police found some drugs in his car and 350 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.079 they his parents sent him to rehab and then Brian 351 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.200 made a decision, not you know, to give up drone 352 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:57.519 the same way that his father made a decision to 353 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:01.880 get up drinking. And he didn't do any dress after 354 00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:04.400 that apart from the medication that he's being to prescribed. 355 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.559 He hasn't drunkle or done any drugs since then. But 356 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:13.599 you're right that that Brian was severely neglected. I mean, 357 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.480 in other circumstances of people paying attention, they would have 358 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.599 seen the signs there. But his parents were clearly self 359 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:23.400 involved and they had their own problems, very serious problems. 360 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:28.400 Occasionally he would be sent to a psychiatric ward or 361 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:33.039 put into therapy, but it was always very brief and 362 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:36.880 obviously not didn't take their family situation into account. Either 363 00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:41.680 that or people were kind of foxed by the way 364 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.480 the family presented themselves. Because his father, George was you know, 365 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:48.880 had a PhD. He worked for he was a government scientist. 366 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.079 He presented very well and a lot of the psychiatrists 367 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:58.039 and therapists were intimidated by him. And so basically, when 368 00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:02.960 things started getting very bad, any parents would have noticed. 369 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.839 I mean, Brian was doing things like talking on the 370 00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:11.480 telephone without dialing number first. He was sleeping all day 371 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.799 and only going out late at night. He had a 372 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:17.160 pair of dogs that he spent almost all of his 373 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:23.279 time with. He believed that people were following him. He 374 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:26.480 constructed a dummy in his addressed it in his own 375 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:28.440 clothes and popped it in the window of the house 376 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:31.480 so that people so that his enemies would think that 377 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:37.240 he was home all the time. And then finally he 378 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:40.599 bought a shotgun and was carrying it around with him, 379 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.920 even in the shower, and his parents all the time 380 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.759 thought this was they were kind of amused by it. 381 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.319 According to Brian's sister Date, they thought that he was 382 00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:55.240 kind of paranoid about outsiders and about external enemies, but 383 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:57.640 they didn't seem to think for a moment that they 384 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:03.880 themselves might be at risk. So so all the signs 385 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:06.519 seemed to have been there from right from the beginning. 386 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.359 But one of the signs that wasn't there, which having 387 00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:17.680 interviewed quite a few authors about parricide, is that there was, 388 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:23.319 you know, this obvious resentment, and here this story doesn't 389 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:26.039 seem to be any build up of that other than 390 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:28.960 his disappointment. And again it didn't seem to be you 391 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.720 didn't write it as resentment. It was disappointment that his 392 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:37.000 father didn't pay for tuition after an incident at college, 393 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:39.559 so instead of being able to go back, his father 394 00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:42.920 said no, so he went back and lived at home. 395 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.400 Yeah, I think what I think it was more. Sorry, 396 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:51.039 go ahead, No, go ahead, Oh, I was going to 397 00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.200 say that. I think I did a lot of respects 398 00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:59.640 about parafived and especially schizophrenic children who kill a parents. 399 00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.240 And it seems to be that in a lot of cases, 400 00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.640 the build up is slow and gradual, and there's a 401 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:12.839