Speaker 1: What is up, Fellasiko's I Am Deaf Valley coming at
you with the one, the only, the certified, fantabulous, mister
Grant Hughes. We are here to talk about the Knicks
head coaching search. We will do a separate podcast about
their offseason look ahead. We wanted to separate the two
just because the coaching thing feels like it could become
more dated at any point, or hell, at this ry,
maybe the Knicks go through the off season without hiring
a head coach and figure it out at the last minute. Grant,
before we kind of dive in here, how the heck
are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm gleefully anticipating just discussing the Knicks and the off
season with you. So I'm just excited to be here.
Speaker 1: Let's dive in. So we're gonna start here, and I'm
gonna go on a little bit of a long winded
spiel for a second. Should the Knicks have had more
of a concrete replacement for Tom Tibadau in mine when
they fired him? Was a stance that I assumed because
of the reporting that's come out about and anyone who's
listened or watched this podcast in the past knows that
I am not someone who considers themselves a TIBs guy,
but I haven't necessarily understood the process. But I wasn't
really thinking about it because I'm looking at the names
that are popping up, and as Grant and I sit
here and record this, the Knicks have inquired about the
availability of Billy Donovan, Chris Finch, Jason Kidd, Quinn Snyder,
Ime Udoka, Ken Coach Carter, Samuel L. Jackson, and Red Arbek.
They've been rejected for all of those guys. I want
to make a couple of things clear before I'm about
to eat my own words, and I did on Blue
Sky and Twitter the other night. This is objectively hysterical.
And if Knicks fans can't laugh at the jokes that
are being made at the Knicks's expense for this, I
don't know. It's hysterical that this is being leaked, whether
it's from the Knicks, from the teams that are hearing
from the Knicks, it's just really funny. Now. However, I
had to take that this was turning into a farce,
and the reporting on it kind of is turning into
a farce. We don't need to necessarily hear all these updates,
but we are because it's the Knicks. And so I
had said, this is a farce. How do you get
rid of tib because you're either a deluded enough to
think that you're going to hire any of these coaches
who already employed, or you just think that anyone's an
upgrade over Tom Tippoteau, which is sort of a danger
zone and like the latter could still just be true.
But people were mad at me on social media, and
as someone who it's hard to admit when you're wrong,
like I have an ego just like anybody else, I
admitted I was wrong and said this does just fall
under due diligence. I don't think if I had to guess,
and this is an educated guess, Grant teams are not
this aggressive when it comes to reaching out, typically to
teams like already employed head coaches, and I guess at
this rate, like you might as well ask you about
Mark Degnault, especially if the Thunder lose in the finals, right,
So I wanted your impressions just on that before we
dig a little deeper. But I wanted to say that
this is what did we make fun of the Kings for?
What did we make fun of even the like what
we made the King right, But the Kings went and
they it seems like they didn't stage a very thorough
search before, just said Doug Christy, and I think when
he's in, and the same with Denver, like when you
have an interim head coach and you think you have
a feel for them, I think that's fine. But I
saw Sam Quinn posted this, and this was kind of
the It wasn't a gotcha, Dan, but it wasn't at
me to begin with. But we posted on Twitter saying
what would we have thought if a week after firing
Tom Thibodeau the Knicks had it interviewed like ten different
assistant head coaches and not picked one. We would not
have thought anything of it. I don't believe. And so
it's objectively okay that the Knicks didn't have, like you
have to me, you should have like a name or
two circled in the bag and you better be like
sure that you can find an upgrade over coach X
for whatever reason. And I do still have some concerns,
which we will get into, but it just kind of
wanted your thoughts on just the list of these names
sort of trickling out it's.
Speaker 2: Unlike anything I can remember, And it feels partly like
a flex because the Knicks, I think, well, the source
of the leagus is a whole other thing, but like
it does seem to broadcast that the Knicks think we're
such a good place to be in such a high
profile organization and so high functioning and have a good
roster that we can sort of like you see, I
don't know where it came from, but like do you
ever see when someone flew a plane with like one
of those messages streaming behind it that said, like Reggie
Miller stop pursuing married women or something like that, this
is the thing that happened. And it's like New York Knicks,
stop pursuing employed coaches, like leave us alone, Like we
have a covenant here, we signed contracts like these people
are part of If it feels like a flex that
they're like, well, we're just asking, you know, like, hey,
you want to come over here. I want to see
what it's like in a big market, good roster. We've
got Jalen Brunson.
Speaker 1: With a front office that never speaks, and you'll have
to answer for them.
Speaker 2: You'll be in front of the firing line every time
with no backup. So I guess if you want to
credit that for anything, it's like, that's ambitious. You guys,
really you gotta believe in yourself. And they seem to I,
this will shock no one. I kind of initially came
down on it the same way you did, which is like, oh,
so you had no plan, like you there was a
two step process. Step one was fire Tom Thibodeau, and
step two was figure out the rest later, which is
what this feels like. So I and and it's just
and it's long shots, like yeah, I guess the Nixon
it's a it's a good job, but it comes with
a ton of pressure, and like, what you know is
that you need to do better than make the conference
finals to top what just happened. Like that's not easy,
and it's gonna be there's gonna be so much scrutiny.
So it does feel like they didn't do their due
diligence and now they I don't know. I don't think
it's unfair at all to say that this is kind
of ridiculous that that they didn't have anybody clearly in mind,
or if they did, they're like, you hang out here,
we're gonna go see if we can get some one
better and we'll circle back to you, like Johnny Bryant
or whoever it is.
Speaker 1: Right, And that's the two conspiracy theories, which one is
just too where it's oh, they're trying to do this.
They don't get like docked for tampering with somebody else. Sure.
My favorite one, Howard Beck of The Ringer alluded to it,
is that because James Dolan was involved in the fire
of Tom Thibodeau, that Leon Rose and crew of kind
of something like, yeah, we can ask these big names,
but they're doing it to kind of just troll James Dolan,
to make him like nobody like you messed up here
if you insert yourself at this because you knew that
he was going to be the one, like the jokes
would also be made his expense. And I think, look,
I think it's fair to say, yeah, you should have
had maybe not in the bag, but you should have
had an idea of what like if you're getting rid
of Tom Thibodeau, you're very clearly saying one of two things,
we have someone or like an archetype of coach in
mind that will do better, or we just think that
almost anyone can do better, right, And I, as someone
who is not again did not consider themselves a TIMS guy,
I would push back against I guess what I'm saying
here is and again I was not saying it before,
So this is hypocritical. I'm just admitting I was wrong.
We do need to give them a chance to actually
go through the process before we say that it was
the wrong process, and I wasn't giving them that chance.
And I do think this front office hasn't had all hits,
but like they've earned the benefit of the doubt because
even when they've acted incorrectly, let's say the mchal Bridges trade,
they have actored deliberately and usually not impulsively, Like, yeah, okay,
that McHale bridges price tag seems impulsive. How long did
the Knicks wait before making the consolidation trade? Now, the
whole honest stuff going on, that's the reason why you
continue to wait. But I think the front office has
deserved the benefit of the doubt. Now. The things where
the concerns are ticking in for me, the names that
have been like loosely mentioned as we're recording this, Mike Brown,
Taylor Jenkins, Mike Woodson, the East is big, grant, did
you know that it is still big? Might even be
bigger than it was before. I don't look at any
of these names and think that, oh, like this would
clearly be an upgrade over Tom Thibodeau. Michael Malone has
been mentioned a little bit too, but like that's to me,
that's like TIB's two point zero. But you look at
his reliance on the starters. Look at Mike Brown's reliance
on his starters before he got canned form Sacramento this season.
What were some of the biggest qualms about Memphis was
kind of the way that their offense was run at points,
And is that gonna get better by putting Taylor Jenkins there?
Mike Woodson, there were complaints about the way he was
running the offense in twenty twelve or whatever it was.
I don't know is that gonna change now. Maybe one
of these guys could come in and they would be
an upgrade. But I've yet to hear a name that
would infer invention or innovation on the Nix's part. And
I'm not saying it needs to be a first time
head coach because I don't really know, Like, who's the
retread that you would look at and say, though that
that makes a ton of sense, right, Like is it
jeff An Gundy like trying to put like rope him
back and that's the one, Like that's.
Speaker 2: What's just just doing just knee jerk reaction. I was like,
I kind of hope it's him.
Speaker 1: Good.
Speaker 2: I don't. So it's interesting that you mentioned, like, well,
maybe they need the innovation, they need all sort of stuff.
It's like, ye, okay, let's a young coach, Sean Sweeney,
Chris Quinn whatever, like you might get you might get that, right,
you might get all let's get some fresh ideas that
and maybe that's that is really what all that needs
to change.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: It's really hard to find a precedent for a team
that advanced as far as the Knicks did and are
in as much of a win win now mode and
like single digit wins from a championship, right, Like, that's
that's a tiny fraction of the league that reaches that point.
That's where the Knicks were, Like they didn't have that
much farther to go to be in the finals and
then have a shot to win a title. So like
that feels like you need a veteran coach that like
has all that maybe isn't the most innovative, but understands
how to manage those sets, those types of expectations that
just like has been there, has been battle tested. Like
but that's kind of hacked and cliche and like how
much does that really matter? I don't know. It's like,
so that's all to say, it's really hard to find
someone and you we've gone through this now, that just
feels like that guy's ticking all enough of the boxes
to be like, yep, upgrade, that is an upgrade on
Tom Thibodeau. I think the best you can do is
hopefully as good but different. Like that's really and that's
kind of been true all along. There was never you know,
Eric Spolster wasn't available. Have they asked about him yet?
Speaker 1: They have? They been rebuffed on That's the one where
I'm like, he just didn't he just sign like a
seven year, hundred plus million dollars that's not a.
Speaker 2: War lead Miami, Yeah, no, Van Gundy, Like I kind
of am serious though, because like he's one wherever he's
been and he's been out of the he was out
of the head coaching chare forever. So it's not like
maybe that is a benefit to him because he didn't
go coach. He didn't go coach the Hawks in the
like the mid twenty teens to you know, a five
hundred record in like a playoff, first round out or whatever,
like he's and then what he did with the He's
credited pretty roundly with the Clippers defense this year, not
that that's the issue for the Knicks, but like Van
Gundy takes a lot of boxes for me, and he
would be one of the most interesting hires, I think,
because like, weirdly he feels like an unknown because he's
been out for so long, but he has the Knicks ties.
He has, like I guess the reputation as maybe not
being an innovator, but like figuring out how to make
stuff work, like what he did with the Clippers defense,
that if that really was him, you never it's always
a collective effort. But like that's persuasive to me, and
like now is he He's also like him and Thibodeau
are very much from the same coaching tree, and like
I don't think Van Gundy's ever been credited as an
offensive innovator, and if that's the core issue, then maybe
that's like a non starter, but nobody else is leaping
off the page, is like, it's got to be this guy.
It's I just don't know who that is.
Speaker 1: And I think the only way that would well, I
guess there's a couple of ways it would happen. But
what's making it so difficult is, yes, you can be
unhappy with how the season ended, even how they got
to the Eastern Conference finals, but they just got to
the Eastern Conference finals, and so you're not this isn't
just a like if it's a team where I guess
even in Phoenix's case to where it's just like and Detroit,
Denver and Sacramento kind of had a chance to they
had a feeling out process with these other interim head coaches,
but with Phoenix, it was they have the journey off
the beaten path. Now does Michigan State counts off the
beaten path? Who's to say?
Speaker 2: But I'm to say Dan that the Sun's hiring criteria
is did you go to Michigan State? And that's some
bullshit and I think it's really stupid. Maybe Jordano's gonna
be a great coach, but it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: But so like in this situation, it almost feels like that,
unless you were going to poach one of the head
coaches that we mentioned, it needs to be a first
timer because that just implies innovation. And what that's saying
to basketball minds like us or like fans, is this
is unknown. It's mysterious, so it can be better. And
it's so hard to look at the known commodities available
and say, like, that's going to be way better. And
I think it's jumbled even more by the fact that
And I think this brings me into like where the
actual concerns kick in, Like if the Knicks are doing
their due diligence and the jokes are fine, they're encouraged
quite frankly, in my book, it looks ridiculous, but they
haven't really done anything wrong. Like I I agree again,
I had the opinion that they should have really had
like someone specifically in mind, but that's not necessarily how
these things work, because we troll, like I said, franchises
for not having an extensive search. What I think I'm
concerned about is the reports that James Dolan was so
heavily involved in this, because the Big Kazoo himself is
like one of the worst human beings on the planet,
let alone a terrible owner, and the Knicks have consistently
been at their best when he stays out of the way.
And so if you're saying you put trust in Leon
Rose as a Knicks fan, yeah, I totally get that.
As a Knicks fan myself, I for the most part
trust him. But that's not where I'm maybe I'm just
so scarred from when I grew up. James Dolan was
actively ruining the Knicks, getting involved in mellow trade negotiations,
like running like coaches hated him so and he just
he sucks, like he's just really bad, Like he's really
he's always been willing to pay, but it's like, look
at the highers he's made, Like Isaiah Thomas, that hospial
to Phil Jackson debacle was an absolute disaster. The fact
that he's more involved, and even the reporting that says
there was players or players that said they weren't sure
if they could play for TIBs. Again, I'm good. I'm
saying this is not a TIBs guy. There's only one
player who should have that type of sway. It is
Jalen Brunson. And we know for damn sure it wasn't
Jalen Brunson who said that. And if it was, whether
it was og Ananobi, whether it was Karl Anthony Towns,
whether it was Michael Bridges, I don't give a fuck.
Those are not guys who are good enough or I
mean og was kind of close, but the fact that
he is so valuable to them is a little concerning.
They're under contract with the exception of Michael Bridges was
a year left, Like okay, so what like, you're a player,
go play for the coach that we installed, play better.
How about you hit that button, mister, if it was
Towns or Bridges, be more consistent. So I don't like that.
And then just what I am worried about when you're
inquiring about these coaches, Like, yeah, I get like if
you were to go ask for the Clippers to get
Ty lu here, like that would be a great hire
for the Knicks. But you're going to compensate these teams
more than financially. So as a team that doesn't have
a first round pick to trade a real first round pick,
what are you giving them? So you're trading assets that
you need in trades to like improve a team that's
not deep enough as it currently stands. Those are just
I'm open to every like we have to let this
process play out, but I do think that you need
to be somewhere in the middle. I don't think anything
the Knicks have done raises a huge red flag, but
there are question legitimate questions to be answered by. All Right, well,
what is the plan here or what are you actually
looking for? Like for players to like him like Jalen
Brunson loved him and was your most important player, Like
that doesn't matter. And then what type of you know
from a like print, like a functional principle, ideological perspective,
what are you looking for? And finally, just as I mentioned,
I don't well, you're going after coaches that you would
have to give up something for. They're not trades, but
it's compensation to let them out of their contract. You're
not asset late enough to just say, like if they
were giving up first round swaps or some shit for
a head coach, that's terrifying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree. I I keep wanting to and
maybe you and I have talked about this. It's I
just like, clearly the thinking was in removing tips that
the reason this team isn't better than it is is
the way it's being coached, as opposed to the limitations
of the personnel that are that is being coached, Like
it's it's the coach, it's not the players. The reason
that the way we get better is someone figures out
how to use the players we have more effectively. And
I don't know that have we talked about this, Like
do you think that's actually true? I'm just asking because
like I think there's room for a debate on that, Like,
oh yeah, I think like and now so that's a
maybe maybe not, but like I think, like again, just
getting back to like the options that are out there
for who could replace TIBs, Like I don't see anybody better.
I think you get someone different, and if you pick
somebody young, maybe you have this long shot upside and
and so like maybe it makes sense through that lens
where it's like we think that we've gotten as much
as we possibly can about this coach player combination. And
although like maybe it's in fact likely that the next
coach will be worse, just the possibility that it could
be better is like the risk that makes the risk
worth taking, which is like I guess logically you could
get there. But I still think what that depends on
is a belief that the players can be more than
they are, that someone can get more out of them,
and that it's not no, this is as good as
this roster can be. I don't know if I'm convinced
of that.
Speaker 1: I think it's debatable, and I think offensively you probably could,
just because Jalen bruns In and Conathy Towns were basically
leading separate lives. By the end or by the end
of the post.
Speaker 2: There's a divider line down the middle of their room
and they can't go on the other side.
Speaker 1: But I come back to the Pacers to Where's and
they do play him with Obi Toppin. But like if
you gave Tyres Haliburton, Karl Anthony Towns is your primary
big I don't know that you've built a like the
Jalen bruns In Connethy Town's dynamic on defense, Yeah, there's
room for improvement, and it can improve on offense. How
do you get much better defensively with that setup? And
if the answer is well, Connethy Towns is a four,
well then you shouldn't have traded for Karl Anthony Towns
because he makes too much money to say that guy's
not our center, like if that makes any sense. And look,
you mentioned it with the firing tims, which also which
is also interesting. I'm not saying that waiting and sitting
on it for like a couple of weeks would have
made this process better, but I found it curious that
they react did so swiftly when it came to firing
him in the first place, because that's what's also led
me to believe like, oh, they must have someone in
mind if they're acting and there's there might be value
just like like no, like swing the sword, like let's
let's get this over with and start it. But you
just made I just found it very interesting that the
decision was made so quickly.
Speaker 2: It I was just gonna say, like it it it
the fact that it happened, that the firing happened so quickly,
and the hiring process has dragged on just like seems
to telegraph that this was like an emotional, like frustration
based decision that again, to circle all the way back,
it's like, oh, maybe there wasn't like a real plan
after like well it can't be him anymore, like okay,
so then who And they're like, oh, whatever we'll take,
we'll ask everybody how about.
Speaker 1: I think the moral here is is that there's clearly
more layers to the higher than oh okay, they're asking
all these head coaches. They didn't have a plan, they
suck and something. No, there's real risk here, like we
can't guarantee they made the right decision or going to
make the right decision. I think that's the nuanced portion
of it, and I'm sure people want it to be
more binary. You want to think the knicks are that
they suck and that this is a bad decision that
they made, or you're just so done with Tom Thibodeau
that anything they do change for the change's sake. And finally,
the thing is changing the head coach here was the
easiest thing to do because you don't have money to
spend in free agency and trading one of these I like,
who actually has the most standalone value aside from Jalen
Brunton in a trade. It's probably og Nanobi And that
contract's a little weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, No, that is true, Like that was the
lever to pull. It just feels like, I don't know,
you gotta know what you're gonna do after you pull
the lever. The true winner is Jason Kidd because the
best reporting I saw, if I think it was Sam Amy,
I'm sorry I can't remember specifically, but it was like
he really just kind of wanted to use the Knicks's
leverage for a bigger contract extension from the MAVs. And
like I think a lot of other coaches out there
are awesome, the Knicks have a vacancy, come ask me.
Speaker 1: And knowing what we know about Jason Kidd, And it
was Sam me Mik who reported that, and it was
Christian Clark as well. That's one hundred percent true because
he basically tried to stage a coup in Brooklyn. You
remember that.
Speaker 2: So I just like Jason Kidd is he doesn't leave
anywhere like on normal terms where I was like I
was ready up and up, there's always like like so
everything crystallized for me. I made pert was like, that's
super on brand. I get it. Not surprised at all.
Speaker 1: Shout out to the Knicks were getting other teams head
coaches paid good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, good for them. They're just thinking about everybody else.
Speaker 1: What is up Fellasi coast. It is guess a player
time where Grant and I lots of self loathing happening here?
Did you want to start us out? You want to
read me some clues? Who we got? Why don't you
tell me which player I'll be guessing?
Speaker 2: Is that how this works?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 2: Okay, I have one from Matty L here that I'm
just gonna double check. Yes, it was submitted since we
last did it, because I can never remember, uh if
we've done these or not? Okay?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 2: Clue number one Dan, I did not play in college.
However my father did. He also played NBA in college.
Speaker 1: He played in the NBA and college. But this player
did not go to college?
Speaker 2: Correct?
Speaker 1: Is it? Well? It could be a who would be
a high school player where that even would have happened?
Then whatever would that be? Uh? Terrell Brandon?
Speaker 2: Wow, that's not where I thought you were going. It's
not Terrell Brandon. I think you're gonna get it soon.
Clue number two. I am named after a type of meat.
Speaker 1: What I oh? Pop eye Jones? Oh?
Speaker 2: Man, I love how fast you got Because you really
like that answer. I could tell when you said you
really like It's not pop Eye Jones. Oh you made me.
Speaker 1: Think that I got it.
Speaker 2: He probably went to college like I just in such
a good answer, because it's like, oh, I didn't say
I was named after a place that sells a type
of meat.
Speaker 1: That's not a type of meat. What was the type
of would they say a type of meat? Not a
type of chicken either.
Speaker 2: It's a type of named after a type of meat.
Oh god, that's phenomenal. That's my favorite answer ever.
Speaker 1: Jerry Steakhouse.
Speaker 2: Fire. Oh boy?
Speaker 1: Uh was I'm upset on the top because I thought
I thought got it.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you that even when you get this, that
will still be the high point of this Guess a player.
I'll give you clue number three now, unless you'd like
to just continue being on fire? Is like Matt Bonner, Like,
is he actually the red lobster? Is that that's not meat?
Speaker 1: Grant? Come on, I would never go that direction.
Speaker 2: Lobster's not meat? All right? Clue number three. I was
drafted thirteenth overall by an Eastern Conference team.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get over named after a type of
meat thing.
Speaker 2: It's the problem is it.
Speaker 1: I was drafted thirteenth overall. Can't be beef. Stew is
Isaiah Stewart, but that's not his actual name, and he
definitely went to college. Oh my god, I was gonna
get it soon. This is embarrassing.
Speaker 2: I still think you will. These are very good clues.
Good job, Maddie.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm gonna keep going back to clue number two,
who was named That's the only thing to be thinking
about is the type of meat you're gonna play.
Speaker 2: What's that gonna be annoyed? I think when when you
get this eventually.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hit me with the next clue, all.
Speaker 2: Right, clue number four. I was the second youngest player
to play in an NBA game and the youngest starter.
Speaker 1: The second youngest player to play in an NBA game,
like of all time? That, yes, I should know this
by now. I feel like Alexey Pokashevski.
Speaker 2: What meat is that? Like a poke bowl? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think that has meat in it either.
Speaker 2: They're sushi in It's what.
Speaker 1: Do you count? So do you count? So you count?
Speaker 2: Like fish is meat?
Speaker 1: It's well, vegetarians will eat.
Speaker 2: Fish, pescatarians will, I think. I mean, like, well, it's
not a vegetable and it's not a mineral or a grain,
so it's it's a meat by default.
Speaker 1: I think it's a protein.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is fascinating, is I thought? I think fish
is meat?
Speaker 1: Isn't the whole thing? I don't know what denomination that is.
I think it's Roman Catholics. You can't eat meat on
Sundays during Lent, but fish are okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of weird exceptions for fish. I
would agree that fish does seem to occupy a gray area.
But I think a fish is meat. Like if I'm having.
Speaker 1: No, it's this player named after a fish.
Speaker 2: I can't you know what?
Speaker 1: You know what?
Speaker 2: Dan? No, he's not.
Speaker 1: So this conversation is entirely pointless.
Speaker 2: Okay, right, but I okay, let's see uh clue number five.
I was named All Rookie Second Team along with my
teammate Travis Knight. Forgot about that.
Speaker 1: How many rookie teams did this player make? How many
a rookie teams?
Speaker 2: At least one?
Speaker 1: Travis Knight was his teammate, I guess in the NBA,
all right, the youngest player. I'm not going to be
happy about this.
Speaker 2: People people are is a form of meat. No, I
think we should have a separate game where you just
name players whose names are also a type of meat.
Because you've done very well. So far, Okay, let's see
what are we on. Clue six. In my first playoff
appearance in my first season, my team played in the
Western Conference semifinals against the Jazz.
Speaker 1: Fuck is this?
Speaker 2: It's just people are beside themselves right now. I would
like to recap the clues for you.
Speaker 1: So far?
Speaker 2: Sure did not play in college? Father did a father
also played in the NBA Named after a type of meat,
drafted thirteenth by an Eastern Conference team, and yet as
a rookie when he was the youngest starter ever played
against the Jazz in the Western Conference semifinals.
Speaker 1: The youngest who was starting on a team that's immediately
good in the Western Conference semifinals named after meat. I
have no idea.
Speaker 2: I wonder if maybe you don't know the meat thing,
and that's really like wrecking this whole set of clues,
is it?
Speaker 1: Are they gonna be named after like a type of
bark on a tree and that's a protein that I
don't know about.
Speaker 2: I'm all right again, I think you okay? Clue number seven.
In my second season, I was runner up in six
Man of the Year and voted into the All Star
Game as the youngest starter in history.
Speaker 1: Oh Man, Kobe Bryant. This is so Kobe Beef. God.
Speaker 2: Hey, you got it. That's the important you know what.
There's two important things. One is that you got it,
and two is that you had some of the best
wrong answers. I think we've ever had. Amazing.
Speaker 1: I'm so upset right now. Those were great clues, Maddie,
great clues.
Speaker 2: There are three more. I'll just reading real quick. Number eight.
During the lockout shortened season, I started every game and
signed a six year, seventy million dollars contract. Clue number
nine and ninety nine. I eroned All Star, All NBA
and All Defensive Team honors. Number ten, I'm a five
time NBA champion.
Speaker 1: I might have gotten it on that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean good, Mattie l understands the assignment. Those
were good clues.
Speaker 1: All right, I have one for Mike. For you, Grant,
this feels right in your wheelhouse. There are seven clues. Okay,
Clue number one I was I was part of the
historically shitty two thousand draft.
Speaker 2: I would love to one shot kill this. I'm gonna
think really hard about who's in the two thousand draft.
Speaker 1: I can confirm they are not named after a type
of meat.
Speaker 2: Okay, Gilbert Arenas not him. I'm not even sure that's
the right draft. Okay, next clue please clue two.
Speaker 1: There have been two All Stars from that draft featured
on GAP. I am the third and final All Star
from that draft.
Speaker 2: Oh, this is asking me to have like short term memory,
which I don't. Who's in the two thousand draft. I
feel like if I just sat down, I could remember
that one and we've done two other that. So this
is the third and final All Star from the two
thousand draft class.
Speaker 1: Correct?
Speaker 2: Uh? And what was the descriptor like much maligned draft
or something like historically shitty? I really cleaned it up
for him. Okay. Uh, clue three.
Speaker 1: Please, here are some of the names selected ahead of
me that you so that you can fathom how bad
this class was. Jason Collier, Matteen Cleves Eton, Thomas, Jerome Moiso,
eleventh overall Chris Mimmott, and fourth overall pick Marcus Pfiser.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, Marcus Pfiser. The Bulls took him. Tyson Chandler. No,
I don't think that. I think that can't be possibly
right because he was not the same year as Pfiser. Okay,
So who else is in there with Pfizer? We got
matteen Cleves. Who else was on the Michigan State team?
Oh boy, what's that guy's name?
Speaker 1: I don't know. You tell me.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say Adrian Payne, but he did not
make an All Star game.
Speaker 1: The late that's also two thousand is that I thought
he was like mid two thousands.
Speaker 2: I was just thinking of a Michigan State guy. Yeah,
probably not because Draymond Green was like really close with him,
and Draymond was like ten years later than that man
two thousand. Uh. Jamal Tinsley, No, I love that, guess though,
that's a I don't know, Okay, I'm mnna need another one.
Speaker 1: Clue four. Born in Toronto but attending Kentucky. I earned
the nickname big Cat, spelled with a c.
Speaker 2: Oh God damn it. So it's a big guy. Uh.
Speaker 1: Jamal mcglure, Yes, wow, I never would have gotten this
when it took call that right now.
Speaker 2: That's a deep that's like a if you remember he
was an All Star one. It's one of those ones you're.
Speaker 1: Like Williams was an All Star?
Speaker 2: You know who was an All Star? You're never gonna
believe this Jamal mcglure. Okay, forget about that one.
Speaker 1: The other three that was a good, great job by you.
The other three clues were well, I was an All star.
The state line doesn't exactly scream it that I was
deserving of it. That season, I averaged thirteen and a
half points and ten point six boards a night. Clue six.
For my career, I played in six hundred and eighty games,
starting three hundred and fourteen. I played for the Hornets, Bucks, Heat, Raptors, Blazers,
and Nets, and then Clue seven. I'm probably known best
for going viral during my time as an assistant coach
of the Raptors, where I screamed adjustments in a finals
game through a paper cup.
Speaker 2: I ton't remember that.
Speaker 1: You remember? You don't remember that?
Speaker 2: The good times?
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I need to bring that meme back.
I'm gonna post that meme on social media something.
Speaker 2: I maybe I'll remember it once I see it. All right,
we have one for you from Bill that I will
magnify now so I can read it. Uh. Clue number one.
Dan I was drafted in the first round in the
early nineties by an Eastern Conference team from an American university.
Speaker 1: Can you read that, Can you read that?
Speaker 2: One flat okay, first round pick in the early nineties
drafted by an Eastern Conference team went to an American college?
Speaker 1: That hour was it down?
Speaker 2: Yea early nineties first rounder drafted by an East team.
Speaker 1: Drafted by an East team early nineties, so pre ninety five,
probably your ninety five or earlier first round twenty who
just falls into that. It's so there's so many names
that like, I can't come up with one. Do you
ever have that where it's just the field is so
wide I should be able to name one and I
just can't do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, every time on the first clue.
Speaker 1: You might have Eastern Conference team, Tracy McGrady was out
of high school. That doesn't count. And that wasn't was
that mid nineties, I was late nineties.
Speaker 2: No, he was, Oh gosh, what yere was he? I
should know that. I'm I'm among them of the foremost
Tracy McGrady appreciators out there. I just want to never
tell sorry, I'm go ahead, I'm fact checking this first clue,
just to be have.
Speaker 1: I ever told you this will be a hard one
outside I used uh, Tracy mcgrady's realtor slash best friend
by yousu. I mean I didn't like for what. I
didn't farm him for parts, but I bought. I bought.
I bought a house through Tracy mcgrady's best friend, Slash.
I'm assuming his realtor. Otherwise would they still be friends.
Apparently this person lived with Tracy McGrady when he was
playing for the Magic or maybe when he was with
the Raptors too. But yeah, I'm tight with Tracy McGrady. Yeah. Say,
I'm thinking he made more commission off of Tracy McGrady
than myself. Okay, co Firmer and I but a right,
did you fact did you fact check?
Speaker 2: I did? I? I mean I just yes, I did.
There's nothing nothing, We're all we're on the up and
up right now.
Speaker 1: Oh you thought Bill was trying to pull.
Speaker 2: Well, I got you know, you know, Okay, you want
the number two.
Speaker 1: I want to get a guess. So I'm going to
say this. I'm good. I'm just naming players that didn't
go to college. It was about I was about to
say Jermaine O'Neill. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're gonna want to at least name some then
went to college. Derek Fisher great guess not, Derek Fisher.
Speaker 1: That's a conference team.
Speaker 2: Clue number two. As a rookie, I averaged seventeen point
five points per game and was on the All Rookie
team for the first and only time of my career. Uh.
Speaker 1: Seventeen points mid early nineties as a rookie, it's a
pretty good rookie season. It sounds like I still have nothing.
Speaker 2: Okay, this clue is not going to help you. H
In my fifteen year career, maybe that helps.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: In my fifteen year career, I made the playoffs ten times,
starting all eighty games in my playoff career.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's not gonna help me. Early nineties first
round pick scored a bunch right off the bat. What
the freaky is this? The seventeen point should be? I
don't know if it should be a dead giveaway that
that should be a pretty big harbinger. This is tough.
I'm going to need the next clue.
Speaker 2: I think this next one will be a little more helpful.
I was traded twice in the first eighteen months of
my career for a combined two future All stars and
six first round picks.
Speaker 1: What, oh my god? UH traded twice in eighteen the
first eighteen months of their career, while averaging seventeen plus
points per game in the early nineties.
Speaker 2: I will, I can't. I would say that the career
might in fact include a portion of the career before
this guy ever played, if that makes sense. No, I'm
trying not to. Just like clue number one is deliberately
leading you off track with the East Conference team. If
that's what I'm trying to get at, Like, maybe maybe
this will be explained.
Speaker 1: Oh, Darkoviski never traded Steve nas No, he was.
Speaker 2: Darkovinski was.
Speaker 1: He was traded for me conference team to the Mavericks,
but he wasn't traded twice in his first daies.
Speaker 2: That's true. He just got the one. I can't give
anymore away because you will. The final clue is just
gonna give it to you, so I won't help you anymore.
Speaker 1: Darius Miles. That was late nineteen nine, also out of
high school. That doesn't matter with me. Please, you've just
read me the next.
Speaker 2: Got a backwards brain? Okay. My only first team All
NBA season, I averaged twenty seven and eleven, led the
NBA in two point field goals and attempts per game.
My team got swept in the Western Conference semis by
the eventual champions.
Speaker 1: Which team was winning titles in the nineties in the West.
So it's not the bullsh This is gonna bug the
shit out of me. Look, even my dogs are trying
to bust in my office right now because you're getting
so fed up that I can't get this.
Speaker 2: Uh this, this is not this is not Kobe levels
of easy though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess hit me with the next clue.
Speaker 2: All right. The following season, I led my team to
sixty one wins before once again getting bounced by a
dynasty team.
Speaker 1: Who is this player? Is it? Uh? Richard Hamilton?
Speaker 2: I don't think he ever averaged twenty seven and.
Speaker 1: Eleven, Oh yeah, twenty my god.
Speaker 2: I like the leading the league in two point field
goals though, because Richard Hamilton liked him some twos.
Speaker 1: Twenty seven one, So we're talking about a big guy
first round picking that up. So he was good, but
he was traded a bunch. Who is who is this?
Who's and I feel like he needs to be an
empty calories big guy based off the career trajectory here.
Although he's on a team and they won sixty one games.
What is going on here?
Speaker 2: So you got two more and your you will get
it on the last one.
Speaker 1: Sean Kemp was he drifted out of high school.
Speaker 2: I think it's close because I think it was like
a community college or something you might be really good at.
Just name guys that didn't.
Speaker 1: Go to college.
Speaker 2: Uh, Vin Baker, I think he did go to college,
So you're close. Actually, that's not a bad guess. I
think he's a pretty He's a pretty close contemporary of
this player. Also, Okay, you want the penultimate clue, Elton
Brand No, good guess. That is a good guess. The
seventeen point five.
Speaker 1: Twenty seven to eleven feels a little too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was more like an eight, nineteen and eleven
guy or nineteen and twelve.
Speaker 1: Next clue, please.
Speaker 2: My Hall of Fame career flamed out due to knee
injuries and limited stints in Philly and Detroit.
Speaker 1: Limited. Andrew Bindam did not go to college. Do not
say Andrew Binam.
Speaker 2: Maybe this clue These clues ares just designed to get
you to name He never played for Detroit either. He
was just like that, Do not say, and his Hall of.
Speaker 1: Fame career flamed out stints in Phillies and Detroit. I
feel like that should be the one that I get it.
He was a big guy. Oh my god, who is this?
I have no idea? All right, carry on.
Speaker 2: So the next clue you will get it on. So
I'm just gonna vamp and give you the teams that
this player played for in order rookie year, Golden State,
followed by the Washington Bullets who became the Wizards, followed
by the Sacramento Kings.
Speaker 1: Chris Webber.
Speaker 2: That's correct, Chris whoever.
Speaker 1: I totally forgot that Chris Weber played for the like Washington,
So that clue. Like when you said when he went
to Sacramento, I was like, oh, all right, I know
who it was.
Speaker 2: Right, So the the the thing I looked up was like,
I mean, so he was. It was a draft day
trade of the Magic actually drafted him. So that's your
Eastern Conference team, and he was traded to the Warriors
for Penny Hardaway and some stuff. So that's like he says.
I was like, well, you could be traded before you play,
and that's your career. I couldn't really give it give
it away that easily.
Speaker 1: Oh that actually bugs me that I didn't get that.
Speaker 2: The final clue was my nickname is Seaweb, so three
probably would.
Speaker 1: Have gotten that wrong.
Speaker 2: You'd have been like Pau Gasol. No way, he didn't
go to college either.
Speaker 1: Are you ready for this one from BJP?
Speaker 2: Okay, man, all right? I think so there are.
Speaker 1: It looks like eight clues in two thousand one. In
twenty twenty, name me the greatest college player to wear
number fifty one.
Speaker 2: That's a that's a good clue, because I don't know numbers.
Speaker 1: I would, as someone who considers themselves a college basketball officionado,
I would have I would have gotten this in the
one shot kill.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure best player in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty they were that's like, named this person
the greatest college player wear number fifty one?
Speaker 2: Luca Garza.
Speaker 1: No, I was trying to idea what number he wears.
That's all I got clue too. Rick Majeris cried on
national TV when I was drafted, or Rick Majoris, I
don't know how to pronounce his name.
Speaker 2: Rick Majeris, okay, so that jaris I mean Andre Miller. Yes,
though Andrew Bogitt, he didn't have fifty one, I'm naming
Utah guys. That's I know Majeri's coached elsewhere, but I
just remember Utah. Keith van Horne.
Speaker 1: Is that I didn't get it, but I'm gonna skip ahead.
This is technically clue four, but we're gonna make it
clue three. I am not Keith Vano.
Speaker 2: Awesome, I'm getting warmer wow. So I don't think.
Speaker 1: I think that's the first time that's ever.
Speaker 2: Happened that I guess the name and explicit clue as
I am not the person that you know what. That
shows thoughtful clue design because he's led me slightly astray.
All Right, What other Utah guys are there? Although, like
I wish I could remember where else majeris coached, I
don't think I have any Oh uh, I can't think
of another off the top of my head. There's someone's
rattling around in my brain. I can't think of it.
What's what's clue through?
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna You're gonna get it soon. Then
if that's the case, so clue number four. I finished
in the top ten and three career statistical categories at Utah,
tenth in scoring with over fifteen hundred points, eighth and
rebounds with nearly nine hundred rebounds, and fourth in free
throws made with four hundred and seventy two free throws.
Speaker 2: So we got, Uh, what is that guy's name?
Speaker 1: I mean, I can tell you, but.
Speaker 2: I yeah, I just I can't think of it. Another
Utah guy. Man, I was close, but I don't know
if I'm gonna get any closer now. I don't know.
My Utah roster knowledge is not that deep. What's the
next clue? On five? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Clue five, I was one of the least likely lottery
picks going to the Orlando Magic in nineteen ninety eight,
where my team took two players at the same position
with lottery picks.
Speaker 2: Michael Doliac correct, nice job, that was. I just needed
the Magic so I could like picture him. Uh and
there what other clues were there? That was a pretty
good giveaway.
Speaker 1: Clu six I played ten years but had a minus
three point seven vorp Clue seven I was actually traded
for Keith Van Horned and a complicated multi team deal
in two thousand and four. Uh. And then Clue eight,
I want a title backing up Shack in Miami in
two thousand and six.
Speaker 2: Ooh I've did that would have really thrown me. I
wouldn't remembered.
Speaker 1: That who's the there's a who's the other white guy?
I always used to get Michael Doliac confused with that
played for the Jazz not Greg Oaster tag. It was, uh,
you're like your eyes are like wide eyed right now.
Speaker 2: Well, uh, there's only so many white centers, so I'm
trying to think like, uh yeah, oh man, yeah it's
pot Way post Oaster tag. Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: Know, it does not matter. Did you want to do? Uh?
I think we have time for one more each?
Speaker 2: Right, This is a new submission from a username doctor
fun Crusher. It's for you.
Speaker 1: They sound like a party pooper.
Speaker 2: Well, we'll see, we'll see how that goes, all right.
I want to make sure doing the right one, because
he sent me two and I no offense, but you
were not going to get the second one. So here
we go. Clue number one. I am in the top
forty in all time NBA triple doubles, tied with Scottie
Pippen and Bill Russell and just ahead of Kevin Garnett
and Jerry West.
Speaker 1: Read that back one more time.
Speaker 2: Top forty in all time triple doubles, tied with Pippin
and Bill Russell, ahead of KG and Jerry West.
Speaker 1: Ahead of KG and Jerry West in triple doubles in
the top forty.
Speaker 2: Tim duncan no good guess Clue number two. As a
junior at a Southern college in twenty fourteen, I won
the Lefty Gerselle Award as the national College Defensive Player
of the Year. I did not know this.
Speaker 1: I do not know who this is, so that's fitting.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's see clue next clue. Since being drafted in
twenty four I have played for five NBA teams, three
G League teams, and one Puerto Rican League team.
Speaker 1: So this player has a bunch of triple doubles. Was
drafted in twenty fourteen, played in the G League and
in a Puerto Rican league. My god, twenty fourteen was
a really long time ago. Who was drafted in twenty
fourteen that maybe had a bunch of triple doubles? That's
the And what what ward did they went in college?
For being defensive player of the years?
Speaker 2: I would basically, yeah, college defensive player of the.
Speaker 1: Year twenty fourteen, but could get tripled down.
Speaker 2: I would say I like defense is not something I
would like. This not close to the first thing I
would think of about this player as an NBA.
Speaker 1: Player, all right, twenty fourteen? That was the h does
he was that he had the Bennett draft or the
Andrew Wiggins?
Speaker 2: Rather?
Speaker 1: Does he have Bennett Draft? Wasn't that?
Speaker 2: I think? So?
Speaker 1: Who? My god? Who is this? Which is the entire
point of this game. So give me the next clue,
Next clue.
Speaker 2: This past season, I played for two different NBA teams
and had a career high twenty one assists in one game.
Speaker 1: Why don't I have this? Who had twenty one assists?
This year? I played for two different NBA teams, dinner
played for three Oh my god? Twenty fourteen. Why can't
I get this? Played for two different NBA teams, career
high twenty Wait what was this? Played for two different
teams this year and dropped twenty one assists at some point.
Speaker 2: Career high twenty one assists in a game this year.
Speaker 1: Two teams this year? How do you even get? Why?
Why don't I have this? Grant?
Speaker 2: I'm aware that he was in the league this year,
but I could not tell you either of the two
teams he played for so I hope that helps you.
Speaker 1: Oh man, oh man, the team, Oh Elfred.
Speaker 2: Payton, you got an Elford Payton. Good job.
Speaker 1: I was trying to think of the name. That was
just like he was just brought in because the team
was so gutted.
Speaker 2: Yep, where did he? Where did he play this year?
Do you remember?
Speaker 1: I didn't know he played? So two teams New Orleans
had to be one of them, right, and then I
don't know who the other one would like the Phoenix
didn't bring him back? Did they know that wouldn't have
been them who they played for? He It was No,
it wasn't Phoenix, it was it was Charlotte. I didn't
know he. I didn't realize he played for Charlotte. That
was a good one.
Speaker 2: So one more clue, which this was the final clue,
that would have been I'm a sixty two percent career
free throw shooter, and multiple online investigations have been done
to determine if my hair was affecting and partially blocking
my shot.
Speaker 1: That's I wonder if I remember that. I wonder if
I didn't get it on the last one. I wonder
if I would have gotten it on that one though?
Speaker 2: Did you write that did you do that? I wanted
the hair.
Speaker 1: Thing the investigation. No, that probably wasn't.
Speaker 2: I used to make fun of it, and I was
told not to talk about it anymore. That's all. That's
all I'll say, because it's like it was viewed as
insensitive or something.
Speaker 1: All right, well, you're a pretty.
Speaker 2: In his hair is in the way. What do you
want me to say? Yeah? Okay, good one, good, good
debut submission.
Speaker 1: We have a couple more here. I'm gonna go to
this one from be Rich for you, though, Grant.
Speaker 2: That's all I have for you.
Speaker 1: By the way, we have others for you, but we'll
save him for next time.
Speaker 2: Okay, like Grant.
Speaker 1: Clue number one. Like Grant, I enjoyed a Jesuit high
school education before playing college hoops in North America.
Speaker 2: All right, Jesuit high school education not really up on
my non California Jesuit high school. So let's oh, I
gotta try. Uh hmm, I'll just say, who would have
gone to son? Uh?
Speaker 1: Klay Thompson incorrect? Okay, Clue two. Drafted in the lottery.
I averaged five point seven points and two point six
rebounds across three starts in my rookie season.
Speaker 2: We don't have a year, do we.
Speaker 1: We do not.
Speaker 2: Five and two as a rookie depyp being a lottery pick. Uh. Yeah,
I don't have a guess on that.
Speaker 1: All right. Clue three. I started regularly for my Western
Conference team over the next four seasons before getting traded
in a deal involving seven other players, two of which
became core members of the We Believe Warriors.
Speaker 2: So he was traded for two players that became there's
like fifty guys that were on that We Believe team.
Speaker 1: I believe the maximum is fifteen.
Speaker 2: But well so it's like, so what was the big
tra I mean, that was the year that like Troy, Yeah,
that's the Indiana trade. So it's like Troy Murphy and
stuff for Harrington and Steven Jackson. But it doesn't So,
but it's not any of the We Believe Warriors. He was.
He was traded in it traded away in a seven
player deal that brought in We.
Speaker 1: Believe guys, two of which became core members of the
We Believe Warriors.
Speaker 2: But he's not coming in with the We Believe guys.
He was traded away for them.
Speaker 1: Correct, That's how I'm reading the clue anything.
Speaker 2: All right, Well then then is it just Troy Murphy?
Speaker 1: No, it is not Troy Murphy.
Speaker 2: Good guys? Who else? Went?
Speaker 1: Uh? Fuck?
Speaker 2: Okay? I should probably have gotten it there, but I
can't think I can't. Yeah, what's the next clue?
Speaker 1: Clue four is a career thirty seven point seven percent
three point shooter on three point five attempts per game.
I was solid and solid and unremarkable NBA player, averaging
eleven points, four rebounds to assists for twenty eight minutes
per game in my career.
Speaker 2: Mmmmm, it's not Mike Dunlevy.
Speaker 1: That is Mike Dunlevy or okay, man, those are the
way lower averages than I would have guessed for him.
Other three clues were I never made an All Star team,
and my deepest playoff run was for a Tibbs led
Bulls team into the Eastern Semifinals, where I average, you guess,
did eleven points and four rebounds. Clue five nicknamed the Natural,
My most similar players according to Basketball Reference were Kurt Thomas,
Mike Miller, and Clarence Weatherspoon. You might be wondering, based
on my career career stats and comparable players, why would
be nicknamed the natural. My my nepotism may have been
at play. Okay, and final clue this past this past season,
I traded for my former Bulls teammate.
Speaker 2: Okay, I like, I do appreciate the final clue being like,
here you go, dummy, just I'll throw you a life raft.
He's the Dunlevy was the one who like body checked
Yiannis right in that series and like hit him into
the stands that series. Yeah, something like that, or maybe Jannis.
I think it was done Levy very out of character
for the natural.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not, he's he's he's more naturally nice than
that typically, But I was I was surprised you didn't
get that on the trade for the We Believe Warriors.
Speaker 2: To be honest, I like didn't want to say that
he was in that trade for some reason because I
I don't know why. I like, oh, they wouldn't have
put him in that deal. All I could remember was
Troy Murphy. But that makes sense because he definitely was
on the Pacers. So all right, hey, pretty good showing
by a do we get all of them?
Speaker 1: Did they get? I mean the Kobe won by me
was by farther that was so terrible. You have to
not get it.
Speaker 2: You got it, that's all.
Speaker 1: And we got to talk about Papa Jones for a
little bit.
Speaker 2: So oh man, so good, really good. Two things you're
great at naming players with meat names and naming players
who did not go to college when asked to name
players that went to college.
Speaker 1: I'm discovering skills. I did not know that. I also
think that's the hardest you've ever laughed on the podcast,
which is why, which is why I thought I got it,
which is my face is probably crestfallen when you were like,
it's not him. But that was a good guess.
Speaker 2: I just like how your brain goes to well, they
make chicken, so obviously really good. I feel like I'm
learning a lot about how your brain is wired, and
it's fascinating. Good good, Josh say, hey, thanks everybody? Are
we good? Shall I take us out?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Please do? All right?
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks everybody for submitting. The clues a lot of fun.
We've got a couple more in the whole story, I think,
but we may need to refresh pretty soon. Yeah. Thanks
for listening, Thanks for watching, Thanks for submitting. If you
would like to submit guest A player many ways to
do it. The best is to join our discord, which
will grant you access to some spreadsheets that Dan has
put together and you can follow them in there links
for that in YouTube and podcast description, review, subscribe, tell
your friends, Tell your enemies. Shout out Frank Milo Keen. Apologies,
Jared Allen